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May 18, 2015 - The Joe Rogan Experience
02:55:44
Joe Rogan Experience #649 - Jonathan Gottschall
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joe rogan
01:45:23
j
jonathan gottschall
01:07:56
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andy stumpf
00:02
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justin wren
00:13
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Speaker Time Text
joe rogan
Okay, good, good, good.
All right, man.
John Gottschall.
What's up, buddy?
Did I say it right?
Gottschall?
Gottschall.
unidentified
You got it.
joe rogan
It's not that difficult.
It just looks difficult.
jonathan gottschall
Right.
joe rogan
Right?
jonathan gottschall
Right.
joe rogan
The Fighter in the Cage.
So, Professor, rather, in the cage.
I got your book right here, and I was fascinated when I heard the concept, and even more fascinated to talk to you about this.
You decided to...
Write a book about taking up mixed martial arts and competing.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
What caused this bug?
jonathan gottschall
Well, I was working as an English instructor at a small liberal arts college in western Pennsylvania, just outside Pittsburgh.
And I was pushing up on middle-age.
I think I was 38 and a half at the time.
A half?
joe rogan
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
I don't know why I did that.
joe rogan
That's like five-year-old talk.
jonathan gottschall
I know.
I don't know why I did that.
Yeah, I have some little kids in my house.
Maybe that's why.
Me too.
So I was 38 and a half at the time.
And I was sort of, I don't know, the career wasn't going that well.
I had never made it onto the tenure track, and it looked like I was never going to.
So I sort of needed something new in life.
And one day I'm at my office hours, and I happen to look out the front window.
There used to be this auto parts store across the street about as far away as, you know, I could hit it with a snowball if I threw it.
And this new business had moved in, and it was called Mark Schrader's Academy of Mixed Martial Arts.
And I stood there at the window and I could see the guys in the cage.
I could see them dancing, hitting, tackling, rolling.
And I had this unexpected emotion, and the emotion was envy.
I envied them.
They seemed so alive over there, so courageous.
I felt like I was sort of rotting away, you know, in my life, in my cubicle.
And so I had this sort of funny thought into my head, and the thought was just a joke at my own expense.
And the joke was, wouldn't it be funny if I went across the street and joined them?
You know, me, because I have this incredibly civilized job.
I've literally never been in a fight before.
I'm almost 40. I'm not in very good shape.
And then my next thought was, you know, maybe there's a book in that, a sort of nonfiction version of Fight Club.
I go across the street.
I try to learn how to fight.
And along the way though, I'd be asking these sort of big deep eternal questions about the role that violence has played in human life.
joe rogan
Now, there's a difference between violence in terms of, like, people perceive violence as being a victim.
jonathan gottschall
Yes.
joe rogan
And that's the violence that I think that everybody has a problem with.
What you're engaging in is martial arts, and although violent action happens in martial arts, overall, it sounds contradictory, but it's not necessarily about violence.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
I think that's exactly right.
And that was my journey.
So I go, you know, when I'm first looking at the cage from across the street, I'm looking at it with all the stereotypes that most outsiders have about the spore.
And to me, it looks really, really violent.
I assume that the guys over there must be of a screw loose.
They must be savages.
And so I went over there to test a theory.
And the theory was, well, you know, There's a darkness at the core of human nature.
And mixed martial arts is a perfect metaphor for it, for this violence at the heart of human nature.
Then I go over there and I find that my theory isn't very good.
And what's happening over there is rough.
It's often bloody and painful, but it's not really quite even violence.
I agree, you know, because the emotions behind it are not angry emotions.
They're not the emotions of violence or rage.
You know, they're the basic competitive emotions.
joe rogan
And it's also, in order to achieve a very high level, you have to achieve something of a Zen state.
And that Zen state can be fucked up by emotion.
It can be tripped up.
Your training can be tripped up.
Decisions made under the duress of emotion are the worst decisions.
jonathan gottschall
Right, yeah, that's one of the things that the instructor, the main instructor, a guy named Mark Schrader, warns us about all the time.
Because guys that get mad, they get hit, and they get mad, you know?
It's like, don't get mad.
It ruins everything.
You know, you make bad decisions, you also get tired.
It tires you out to get mad.
joe rogan
Yeah, you also really get mad when you chase someone to try to get back at them.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Then you have bad management of energy.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
There's so much involved in any sort of martial arts competition, any sort of martial arts training.
That you don't see unless you engage in it.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, yeah.
It was tremendously valuable to me to do this.
Because at times I thought, well, you know, I'm not the first writer who had the idea to go and get in a fight and write about it.
You know, George Plimpton did it.
Sam Sheridan did it.
I know you've had Sheridan on your show.
He wrote a great book about it.
unidentified
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
And a couple other guys.
So I wasn't the first to do it.
And so as a sort of...
Publicity stunt, that's not really why I did it.
I did it because you really don't know anything about it unless you've done it.
Unless you've gone over there and gotten into the cage and been sort of locked up inside there.
They literally lock you up in there half naked, you know, and you're with this other guy and this other guy's really scary, you know, he's a savage killer.
And the only way to get out of that cage is to somehow survive these next few minutes you're going to spend with this guy.
So there's an intensity to that thing that you know is there when you watch it from the outside But it's much different to actually feel it to feel what's actually happening to you to feel what it's like to get punched in the face really hard It was a tremendously educational experience to actually do it Did it change the way like did you watch martial arts before that or were you like really an outsider when you did you watch any UFC matches?
Dude, I've been a fan forever Forever.
joe rogan
But you still had, like, some preconceived notions when you saw the cage.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, yeah.
I wanted to figure things out about it.
Like, why do I watch this?
You know, because when I first started watching it, I had a really good excuse.
I was in my early 20s, it was about 1995, and I was a committed but basically inept karate student.
And the UFC was a tremendous education about what worked in a fight and what absolutely did not.
And most of the stuff that I was learning in my karate classes absolutely did not work.
You know what I mean?
And so I was not new to the UFC, I was not new to cage fighting, but I had a very much of an outsider's perspective on it.
And I was confused about what draws people to these kinds of spectacles.
What draws people not only to compete in the cage, that's an interesting question, But also, what draws people to watch combat sports or watch other forms of violent spectacle?
People who are decent, civilized human beings.
Why do we want to watch this stuff?
joe rogan
Now, when you were practicing karate, like, how long did you practice for?
jonathan gottschall
I was, like, maybe two years.
And I gave it up because of the UFC. Really?
I gave it up because of the UFC. Yeah, I went...
joe rogan
You missed the boat when Machida came along, then all of a sudden people started practicing karate again.
jonathan gottschall
Well, yeah, it's true.
It's true.
Some of it works.
Absolutely.
As long as it's...
As long as you're mixing it into a system, rather than sticking with karate, which is what I had.
And so my school was very purist.
And when I went to my sensei and said, hey, you know, sensei, very carefully, you know, there's authority in these dojos, there's tradition that you question at your peril.
And so I went in and said, yeah, you know, sensei Bill, you know, I've been watching these tapes.
I watched them on Blockbuster, you know, Blockbuster tapes of these UFC fights.
And long story short is guys like us, they're not just losing.
They're getting slaughtered.
They're getting massacred.
You know, they get a couple of feeble punches off, they get tackled to the ground, beaten half to death.
And so I'd say to him, you know, what do we do?
What do you do if you're taken down in a fight?
And he'd be like, and he'd look at me and be like, it's obvious, just don't get taken down.
It's that easy.
And right then it hit me that he didn't know anything about fighting.
He didn't know how often fights go to the ground.
He didn't know that not getting taken down is a martial art.
joe rogan
Yes.
jonathan gottschall
And he didn't know that if you're not training for that, if you're not drilling, you're going to get taken down.
If you haven't drilled ways to stand back up again, you're going to stay down.
I realized then that we were...
We were like LARPers, live-action role-playing.
You know what I mean?
You know what LARPing is?
joe rogan
No, but I do now.
jonathan gottschall
Well, it's live D&D. You go off into the woods with your friends and you play D&D live.
Yeah, it's pretty awesome.
joe rogan
That's awful.
jonathan gottschall
But that's what we were doing, basically.
We were LARPing as, you know, samurai.
And so after that, I was pretty disillusioned and I gave it up.
I would have gone into it earlier, but it took a long time for MMA and BJJ to make it to my neck of the woods.
It's been out here in LA and in New York City for a long time, but I've always kind of lived in podunk towns.
And it's only, again, not until 2010 or 2011 that I had the option to do this.
joe rogan
Really?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
So you had no jujitsu until 2010 or 2011?
You're still in the same place outside of Pittsburgh?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
How far is Pittsburgh from you?
jonathan gottschall
Pittsburgh is about a half hour, but even Pittsburgh had one BJJ school.
But that was all.
There was a fight club that had gone out of business, an MMA club, that had gone out of business.
They're back now.
Henzo Gracie has a school there now.
So there is good stuff there now.
joe rogan
It's very difficult to make money teaching MMA. Very difficult.
You can do much better teaching jiu-jitsu or teaching taekwondo even or karate.
jonathan gottschall
I think that's right.
joe rogan
I had a similar martial arts upbringing.
I started out in Taekwondo, but dedicated my entire life to it.
And then when I started kickboxing, that was my eye-opening.
It was before even grappling.
Grappling was my second eye-opening.
My first eye-opening was kickboxing.
And then also just training straight boxing.
I realized how terrible my hands were.
Because Taekwondo was so kick-centric.
unidentified
So feet-heavy, yeah.
joe rogan
It was just all about kicking, and when guys are only kicking you, there's a lot of things you can get away with that you can't get away with when they're punching you.
And I had this, like, big enlightenment moment, like, man, I've been wasting my time.
Not really, it turned out in the long run, because I learned a lot of things, and I developed dexterity that's very unusual.
Flexibility.
Yeah, flexibility, but anybody can develop flexibility, is the dexterity is unusual.
Like the ability to throw kicks in positions in ways that a lot of other people can't.
And it's just because that's all you do.
You're throwing a lot of kicks.
And so there's a lot of guys that took that style, like Anderson Silva's one of them, and started out as a Taekwondo guy, and then eventually developed all the martial arts skills, takedown defense, wrestling.
jonathan gottschall
Right.
joe rogan
Jiu-jitsu and whatnot.
But yeah, when the UFC came around, most people who are on the outside, they'll look at it like I've had so many people say that it's not martial arts, it's a sport, it's a martial sport, and there's all this silliness attached to it.
But what they need to know is that no one knew.
When I was a kid, no one knew.
Until 93, no one knew.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
They didn't know that it was so easy to take you down, and when they did take you down, they would just break your arm.
Like, they'd strangle you in seconds.
Like, no one had any idea how vulnerable they were.
unidentified
I know, I know.
jonathan gottschall
It was a shock, right?
Wasn't it a shock?
joe rogan
Total shock.
jonathan gottschall
When I watched, I mean, I remember seeing the first couple of them, and I watched them religiously at first.
I'd pause, I'd slow down, I'd rewind, I'd watch the movie, try to etch it, you know, into my memory banks.
But I watched with a sinking feeling, like, oh my gosh, this is not at all...
joe rogan
I started jiu-jitsu almost immediately after discovering it.
I found out about it in 94 or 5. I think I found out, it started out in 93 and I think I came out to LA in 94 and somewhere in mid 94 I found out about the UFC. Yeah.
And I didn't see the first one, I saw like the second one and I watched it on video.
jonathan gottschall
That's what I did too, yeah.
joe rogan
Like a VHS tape.
jonathan gottschall
Blockbuster video, exactly.
Yeah, I used to hang out in that section video store, I still remember it.
I would lurk there dangerously, like guiltily.
Lurking LARP? Well, I'd be lurking there like you're in the porno section or something.
joe rogan
Right.
jonathan gottschall
Because it was like UFC videos, WWF videos.
joe rogan
Faces of Death.
jonathan gottschall
And Faces of Death was in that section.
joe rogan
They were all lumped in together.
jonathan gottschall
That's what it was with.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Yeah, I remember I was training at the Jet Center, which is a famous kickboxing gym in Van Nuys.
It was right before it went under, because they had gotten damaged in the earthquake, and then once rain came after the earthquake, they got massive flood damage, and they eventually went under.
But before they went under, that was where, when I first moved to California, I started working out.
And Benny the Jet Orquidez is like one of the pioneers.
Of not just kickboxing, but incorporating low kicks and fighting against the Thais and the Japanese with their low kicks, and then fighting in sort of no-holds-barred tournaments back then.
And Benny had this, and his brother-in-law, I guess, Blinky Rodriguez, who's a famous kickboxer as well, would teach classes there, and It was a crazy environment, because Blinky had some family tragedy involving gang violence, so he had a lot of gang members that would train there and work out there.
So you'd have these guys...
I remember this one guy had this really shitty prison tattoo on his back that said whatever his gang member was, La Plata's, and then underneath it it said, Fuck the rest.
Like, tattooed big on his back like a 12-year-old drew it in there.
I was like, oh, Christ.
Like, this is where I'm working out.
And, you know, when we take classes with those guys and spar with those guys, it was just very disconcerting.
Like, you didn't want to beat up a gang member and then get shot in the parking lot.
But the place was abuzz.
About these tapes.
Like, people had found out about them and everybody was like, you see this shit?
Everybody's like, damn, this motherfucker just grabs people and drags them to the ground and chokes them.
And everybody wanted to talk about it and it was just...
jonathan gottschall
It made no sense.
joe rogan
It didn't, it not only didn't make any sense, everybody was like, what are we doing here?
What are we doing with our skill set?
Like, is this shit gonna work?
Like, what if we went into one of those dudes?
And so I went to Carlson Gracie's, which was...
jonathan gottschall
How'd you even know about it?
joe rogan
I found out about the gym from, there was a show called, I think it was called Extreme Fighting Championships.
There was a very small, John Peretti was the matchmaker and he was producing it.
I think it's called Extreme Combat.
Stream?
Something extreme.
I don't remember.
jonathan gottschall
There was a lot of extreme promotions.
joe rogan
Yeah, but they had a montage, like a training montage thing for one of the fighters, and he was training at Carlson Gracie's.
And I knew that Mario Sperry trained there, and he was like one of the big guys at the time.
Murillo Bustamante was there and Vitor Belfort was there before he made his UFC debut I came in there right when he was making his debut he had just I got there when he was about to fight John Hess in Hawaii and he fought John Hess in Hawaii who had fought in the UFC and beat the fuck out of him in about 10 seconds it was like one of the craziest fights ever he got on top of him and just I think he went knee to the belly on him and just uncorked about 50 punches to his face like Nobody had seen anybody like Vitor.
jonathan gottschall
He was a horrible monster.
joe rogan
He's still fighting this fucking weekend, which is so crazy.
Vitor is fighting this weekend for the title.
unidentified
Madness.
joe rogan
Immediately upon going to Carlson Gracie's, I was just manhandled and thrown around like a little baby and strangled left and right.
I was like, Jesus Christ, I'm fucking helpless.
I had this delusional idea that I could defend myself.
But as a white belt in jiu-jitsu, even with a year of high school wrestling, I kind of knew how to wrestle a little.
I knew how to get on top of guys, and then I'd get triangled or armbarred or guillotined, and they'd take my back, and I didn't know what the fuck to do with the gi.
The gi was ridiculous.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, it's crazy.
joe rogan
Wrapping me up in that thing, and just, ugh.
It was so humiliating.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
I'll never forget it.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
But also so enlightening.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, yeah.
joe rogan
And for you, going from this karate background to then entering into mixed martial arts training, like, what was...
jonathan gottschall
Well, I'd never been punched in the face for one thing.
joe rogan
In all your karate training?
No one punched you in the face?
jonathan gottschall
Mm-mm.
We always threw punches to the chest.
joe rogan
Because it's Kyokushin.
jonathan gottschall
Kyokushin, yeah.
unidentified
Wow, so you never put boxing gloves on and fucked around?
jonathan gottschall
Maybe we did, but not for real.
I mean, the intensity of sparring at the MMA gym was so much more intense.
So maybe we put boxing gloves on and threw some punches, but very soft.
Wow.
And there's days at the MMA gym where it's very, very close to being a real fight in there.
joe rogan
Often is a real fight.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, it's pretty close to being a real fight.
joe rogan
Cain Velasquez and Daniel Cormier, who's also fighting this weekend, Cormier said, sometimes me and Cain spar and sometimes we fight.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
Well, I think he actually said that in the old days we fought.
We always fought.
Now sometimes we spar.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Well, that's a big concern today.
The big concern is, like, how much do you take out of yourself in the gym?
jonathan gottschall
It's tough.
joe rogan
How much is it necessary, though?
Like, in order to prepare to be comfortable in the cage and to fight at your best, how much do you have to take out of your system?
jonathan gottschall
Man, it is a tough decision.
Because if they go easy, they're afraid that their guy's going really hard all the time.
If they go hard, it's practically a coin flip that they're going to get through to the fight without getting injured in some way.
joe rogan
Well, one of the best gyms, American Kickboxing Academy, Dana White was just talking about how they train like cavemen, like they've got to get out of Stone Age.
Yeah, yeah.
And they kind of said, look, you kind of don't realize what's necessary to prepare for fights.
But then you look at the amount of guys that get hurt there.
It is pretty crazy.
But you look at the amount of guys that are really good there.
Luke Rockhold, Daniel Cormier, Cain Velasquez.
It's like, fuck, you can't argue with that success.
And it seems to me like there is no easy way out of this.
I don't think you can train light.
jonathan gottschall
The problem is, like, other sports would have this problem, except they have an authority that governs it and makes everyone behave the same way.
So the NFL, for instance, or the NCAA, like football teams, for instance, they're allowed to practice so many hours a week, and that's it.
joe rogan
Really?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, it's by rule.
You know, you're not allowed, you put in your 20 or 30 hours a week, and then that's it.
joe rogan
You're not allowed to train on your own?
jonathan gottschall
Well, I guess you could.
joe rogan
That's the problem.
jonathan gottschall
And guys will cheat and go, yeah.
joe rogan
Well, that's the problem with fighting.
Fighting is a team sport?
No, no.
Fighting's an individual sport.
Because anytime anybody goes, well, the people in the NFL, well, people in the NFL, first of all, that fucking whistle blows, and you get a nice, juicy break.
You know, you get to catch your breath, walk around offsides, you get that guy talks, and he says a bunch of shit that went wrong, and everybody complains, and it's a joke.
If you compare the amount of effort you have to put forth in an NFL, sure, the collisions are horrific, sure, I mean, you've got to work out hard to be that fucking big and strong, there's no doubt about it, but As for, like, the life and death experience of being in the cage, fuck, man.
jonathan gottschall
No, I don't think anything compares to that.
joe rogan
There's nothing.
There's nothing.
Now, how did you start off with beginner classes?
Like, how did you enter into this?
jonathan gottschall
No.
I mean, basically, this gym, it's a small gym.
You know, it's a small town gym.
joe rogan
How many students are there?
jonathan gottschall
It would vary.
You know, like you said, MMA is a tough business.
MMA gym is a tough business.
And so it might be booming in popularity as a spectator sport.
Doesn't mean most guys want to get in there and start training.
joe rogan
Right.
unidentified
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
Because it doesn't look like all that much fun.
joe rogan
Opening up a base jumping school.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, pretty much, yeah.
So I think he expected, as a lot of guys who opened those gyms did, that the level of popularity as a spectator sport would track with the level of participation.
So maybe most nights would be 15 guys there, something like that.
joe rogan
That's not too bad.
jonathan gottschall
That's not too bad, yeah.
joe rogan
And did you ever have an issue with the guys who were more experienced beating up on the guys who weren't?
jonathan gottschall
I mean, honestly, sometimes, but honestly not for the most part.
You know, there's a very clear pecking order emerges in an MMA gym, or any kind of martial arts gym, almost from day one.
People have a very good sense, a very, very good sense, of who would kick whose ass if it came down to a real fight.
And so for the most part, the big guys don't bully or oppress the little guys.
There's no glory in it.
And the little guys also know not to antagonize the big guys.
You know, they give them respect.
They give them submissive body language.
You know, one time I was going to fight or spar this big heavyweight in my gym.
And we often had to spar out of our weight class because it is a smaller gym.
So this guy weighs like 270 pounds.
He's a competition fighter.
I'm terrified.
And in the moment before the bell rings, I go right up to him and I hug him.
And I bury my head right in his fragrant, meaty cleavage.
And I say, come on, Clark, I got a family.
That's all I said.
And after that, he didn't exactly go easy on me, but he let me live.
And that happens, I was pretty explicit about it, but I think that kind of language, that kind of communication is going on a lot at a gym.
joe rogan
Yeah, it certainly is.
It does in jujitsu as well.
Like, you'll see some guys that, like, as they're rolling, they're just more submissive to other guys.
You know, like, when someone is more dominant, it's like certain things you don't even try.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
Like, you'll automatically go in defensive mode, which is also very dangerous for the guy who's the best guy in the gym because you can get a very inflated sense of your abilities if you're always...
There's certain fighters that fought in lower-level organizations and then came over to the UFC. And as they came over to the UFC, one of the first things that was clear was that they had never faced another killer.
Like, they might be a killer themselves, but they had never faced another killer.
And then when faced a killer in the UFC, they'd be like, oh, this is what it's like to fight me.
This sucks.
And you would often find out, like, who's got it and who doesn't have it.
jonathan gottschall
That's true.
At my gym, that's definitely true.
The better guys there, I don't hit those guys hard in the face.
joe rogan
No way.
jonathan gottschall
No way.
unidentified
Then you authorize them to hit you hard in the face.
joe rogan
Carlos Condit said that once.
He did this thing for the military and did some sparring and stuff with some military guys.
He's real clear.
He goes, hey man, we can have some fun here.
Just hit me as hard as you want to get hit.
jonathan gottschall
Exactly.
joe rogan
When you're that good and you can say, just hit me as hard as you want to get hit.
Don't hit that guy hard!
Trust me!
But that's, you know, it's finding that perfect balance of competition, but of also, you know, like, you've got to figure out how to not kill each other inside the gym.
You've got to compete and push each other.
And oftentimes it's just a matter of just pulling back on shots of not trying to knock each other out because the guys who try to knock each other out man that fucking that style of sparring that just cannot cannot maintain No, I think it's really dominant there are guys in my gym like that guys who apparently can't pull the punch either by either by lack of athleticism and You know what I mean?
jonathan gottschall
It's kind of actually a hard thing to throw the punch as hard as you can.
joe rogan
There are a few guys like that.
jonathan gottschall
And then pull at the very last second.
That's kind of an athletic thing to be able to pull off.
unidentified
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
And I hated sparring with those guys.
joe rogan
Yeah, there's always a guy like that.
There's guys like that in jujitsu, too, that guys would never spar with.
There was this one dude, no need to name names, but at John Jack Machado's, we'd all just get away from this guy.
Because if you sparred with him, if he caught you in anything, he's going to fuck your arm up or fuck your neck up.
Like, he just would not let go, and he didn't know how to not yank on things.
And then there's other guys that were way better than him that you never worried about.
Like, you might get dominated, you might get tapped.
Like, if you roll with Jean-Jacques Machado, even if you get tapped, it's so controlled.
Like, you never get hurt.
You know, like, if he wraps you up in a triangle or takes your back or something like that, He's in control the entire time.
There's no yanking or weird shit or twisting that you didn't expect.
Those are like the dangerous guys, like the really strong blue belts.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Yeah, those are the guys at my gym, too.
There's guys that can't quite spar, that you have to fight them.
You know what I mean?
They're going to come so hard that you almost have to fight them.
joe rogan
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
And I don't want to do that.
joe rogan
Are you still doing it?
Are you still, after you wrote the book?
jonathan gottschall
I did, you know, this was a big thing that, this was the big surprise for me about doing this whole project was, again, I look at it from across the street.
I'd always been a fan, but I never really wanted to do it myself.
I wanted to do jujitsu, but I didn't really want to be a cage fighter.
It didn't look like fun to me.
It looked like about as much fun as torture.
You know what I mean?
It looked scary and painful.
And the biggest shock for me was that I loved it.
I loved it.
So I expected to do it for a year and then to quit the absolute second my fight was over.
You know, that's it.
I'm retired.
I'll go write the book.
But I kept doing it for a couple years longer because I really loved it.
I love the camaraderie.
I love the challenge of it.
I love the way it made me feel.
I love the way it, you know, gave me this ability to live A sort of headlong life, you know, for a couple hours a week is all.
joe rogan
What do you mean by headlong?
jonathan gottschall
I don't know.
I have this restraint in my life.
I'm a professor, you know.
I have this really dull life in a lot of ways.
And then for a few hours a week, I go in and I take these risks in the gym and I experience these big emotions and these big highs, you know.
And then about a year ago, I got so beat up that I really just couldn't continue anymore.
And giving up was one of the hardest things I've ever done.
It was like, you know, I kind of felt like this romance in my life had come to an end.
And I was too brittle and too old, you know, to recapture it.
joe rogan
What was the issue, like, physically?
jonathan gottschall
I always expected for it to end badly.
You know, I knew I was kind of pushing my luck, and I figured I'd go out on my shield at some point, you know, go out on a stretcher after some horrible head injury or blow up my knee or something like that.
It wasn't like that, though.
It was more like an accumulation of little things.
Rickety old man stuff, you know?
You just get older and you start picking up these little injuries and they don't go away.
So I got, you know, I kept getting turf toe from kicks and from getting stuck on the mat.
And that turned into arthritis at some point.
And I pulled my groin bad.
And that's been bad.
And I messed up my neck one time.
And it's never been quite the same.
Just got rickety.
And part of the reason I started going to hot yoga, as we said before, is in hopes of...
Curing all this stuff, you know, getting physically healthy, getting my flexibility better so I can get back in the gym.
I don't ever want to do the hardcore MMA sparring anymore.
I don't want to get hit in the head anymore.
But I do want to get back into the grappling elements of it.
joe rogan
Yeah, we were talking about it before the podcast started that I've become addicted the last few weeks to yoga.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, me too.
joe rogan
Yeah, I've got this reoccurring issue.
I have a pulled muscle in my butt.
Very uncomfortable to talk about it.
But it's aggravated when I throw kicks, and so I wasn't throwing kicks for a while.
But there's certain punches when I just push off of it.
There's something about exploding.
So I was like, man, I gotta stretch out.
My back's always fucked up.
And so I started taking hot yoga about a week and a half ago.
And almost immediately, I found out that it calmed me down.
Almost immediately.
My stress level just dropped tremendously.
I mean, I had done it before, but I've been real inconsistent about it.
So I'm trying to do four days a week for a year.
jonathan gottschall
That's my goal, too.
joe rogan
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
Can you do it on back-to-back days?
joe rogan
Yeah, you can, sure.
jonathan gottschall
I often feel so tired from it on the second day, like muscularly tired.
I mean, the thing that I didn't expect about yoga is how difficult it is.
Yeah.
I mean, I knew it was like, I thought it was me in a hot room stretching.
That's what I thought it was.
You know what I mean?
But it is, I mean, the level of exertion is really extraordinary.
joe rogan
It's harder than a lot of jujitsu classes.
And people are going to say, get the fuck out of here.
If I have to roll with five blue belts that are my size or do a class in hot yoga, I guarantee you it's harder to do yoga.
Because if a guy's under my level, I can pretty much control what happens.
I can hold positions.
I can choose to take breaks.
I can mount them and just relax.
Yeah, you can't do that, obviously, if you're fighting for your life against someone good.
If you're grappling with someone really good, jujitsu's harder, because it's fighting to the death.
If there's someone who's just a little bit better than you, or a solid notch better than you, and they're trying to kill you, but they're not good enough that you're in total defensive mode, you're still in the game.
You get to heart attack stages where you're like, this might end right here.
This whole fucking life on this planet might end right here for me.
jonathan gottschall
It'd be a good death for you.
joe rogan
It's not the worst death, but yoga is almost as difficult.
It's really hard.
I mean, I was going to write something about it.
I might write it still like a blog entry about it.
How there's this life or death struggle that's going on in these hot rooms all over the country and no one knows how difficult it really is.
Everybody thinks it's like really easy because a bunch of women are doing it.
jonathan gottschall
Exactly.
Exactly.
I think guys don't get it at all because I'm always there and I kind of like the female environment of it.
I like that it's such a big transition from the gym, you know, where like it's non-competitive and the whole, even if there's a male teacher, The whole culture is still female.
It's a feminine culture.
unidentified
None of the macho stuff is going on there.
jonathan gottschall
You're not trying to vanquish the room at hot yoga like you would be possibly if you were at the gym.
I just dig it.
I think it's the main thing that people don't get about it.
I would have had the same stereotypes I think a lot of people have that's kind of a sissy thing to do.
There's nothing sissy about it.
It's really a hard thing.
joe rogan
Yeah, it just has a weird connotation for some reason.
We have this weird perception of it because we see girls in tights.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
You know, we say, how hard could they be working?
jonathan gottschall
Exactly.
joe rogan
That's ridiculous.
jonathan gottschall
I wonder if they're not...
I do get the feeling that I am working harder.
Because I'm newer and I have to work really hard to get into these positions because my flexibility sucks.
And with these women, a lot of them are super flexible and they seem to get into those positions pretty effortlessly and hold them with less vibration.
Then I'm holding them.
joe rogan
Well, some for sure.
But some, I mean, there's this one lady that I go to this class, and she's got to take a break like every other pose.
She's barely getting through it.
You know, she's very out of shape, and she's attempting to do this very difficult class.
And there's certain things when I do it where I'm like, fucking, I could barely hang in here until this guy calls it.
jonathan gottschall
I know, me too.
joe rogan
But in other ones, it's a breeze, where other people are really struggling.
jonathan gottschall
It depends on the instructor, you mean?
joe rogan
No, no, no.
Oh, the poses.
unidentified
The flexibility.
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
Like, I have a lot of flexibility in my legs.
Like, kicking flexibility.
Yeah.
And so there's certain poses where everybody else is struggling and I'm taking a break.
I'm like, woo, I can relax here.
jonathan gottschall
Can you get your arms back?
joe rogan
Yeah.
I can do all that.
But the big one is, like, stretching my legs out, putting my body forward.
Or with a lot of people, they're holding it, holding it.
I'm like, I can go to sleep here.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
So it's nice.
I get little breaks.
jonathan gottschall
No, for me, I'm fighting for my life in that position.
unidentified
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
And having that voice in my head is, you know, like...
You can do it, pussy.
Don't be a pussy.
joe rogan
Don't be a pussy.
But then there's other ones where I'm just fucking dying, you know?
It's really difficult.
But, you know, again, I think there's a balance issue.
And I think when you're all the time just...
All the explosion, lifting weights, kettlebells, and fucking...
I think it's good to do, like, static tension-relieving, long-holding those poses, stretching, elongating the muscles, stretching out all the tissue, stretching out all the hamstrings and the back muscles, and there's so much stretching going on, I realize what I'm doing, and I'm like, I don't ever do this.
I never lengthen everything out.
Everything is just getting compressed.
Everything is...
Everything is explosion and all this fucking heavy weight.
I think you need balance.
I don't think you should have only yoga.
I think it's good to put weight on your body and your muscles because it's good for your density of your bones, it maintains mass, it keeps you from getting frail, especially as you get older.
Stretching and yoga positions should be almost mandatory for people to get their shit together You know, it's it's it makes you way calmer.
I don't know why I mean, I wish I wonder if it's just physical tension being released or if just Stretching itself if there's something in the act of doing so that just when it's over Everything else just seems like calm and relaxed like the difficulty of those poses.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah I always felt like it burns so much energy.
You don't have anything left to torture yourself with afterwards.
The anxiety is kind of burnt through.
I had the same sense you do.
The first time I did, I was like, oh my god, this is the healthiest thing I've ever done in my life.
joe rogan
How long have you been doing it?
jonathan gottschall
I've done like 10 classes.
So I'm still at that stage of like, you know, converts zeal, you know.
joe rogan
Oh yeah, the blue belt disease.
Like just before you get a blue belt, jujitsu guys just don't want to talk about anything but jujitsu.
So you want to do it to a point where you get healthy enough to go back to grappling.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I'd like to get back into the gym.
I miss the guys.
It was a good thing for me.
joe rogan
You know, Anthony Bourdain just kind of did jujitsu.
jonathan gottschall
Do you know this?
I did that.
Yeah, I did know that.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's amazing.
unidentified
At 58?
I know.
jonathan gottschall
He loves it, too.
joe rogan
Dude, I met him.
That fucking guy.
jonathan gottschall
He's got a blue belt disease.
joe rogan
He still smoked a few cigarettes when I met him.
Drank crazily.
jonathan gottschall
Has he quit smoking?
joe rogan
Yeah, he quit smoking.
He quit smoking when he had his daughter.
Which was just right around when I was meeting him.
And was just eating whatever the fuck he wanted to, getting a belly and drinking all the time and traveling around the world.
And his wife is a maniac.
His wife is a jiu-jitsu fiend.
But I see a guy like that.
I'm like, at 58 years old, how much can his body take?
He's doing it twice a day.
I wonder if he's doing any yoga or anything to counteract just age-related degeneration.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I don't know.
I often wonder about that myself.
I wonder if like the fact that he wasn't athletic for most of his life means that he hadn't put a lot of hard miles on himself.
joe rogan
That could be true.
jonathan gottschall
Like by now you've got a lot of hard miles on yourself.
I got quite a few hard miles on myself, you know?
joe rogan
Yeah, I have a lot of fucking hard miles on this body.
It's a lot of surgeries and a lot of injuries and but works amazingly well, but a lot of that is because I don't have a conventional job.
I was thinking that today when I did that class I was like, how many fucking people have an hour and a half, you know?
jonathan gottschall
The middle of the day.
joe rogan
Yeah, or at nine o'clock in the morning to go in there and, you know, stretch out in a fucking sweat box for an hour and a half.
Most people just don't have that time.
And then when you get home, you have your family and bills and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And you have all this shit to deal with.
Most people don't have the time to put in for body maintenance, for the proper body maintenance.
jonathan gottschall
It's very true.
joe rogan
I was having a conversation with a friend about nutrition.
They were asking me, which kind of supplements should I get?
What should I do?
And I said, well, one of the first things you should do is find a qualified doctor and get your blood work done.
Find out where your nutrition levels are at, what your vitamin levels are.
Let's find out.
Eat what you normally eat.
You don't have to get crazy and try to fix it, but eat what you normally eat, and then let's find out what do you need.
Most people are like, oh, that's so much time.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, they don't have the energy and time for it.
joe rogan
I don't have time to go to the doctor.
jonathan gottschall
Do the research.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's a lot of work.
Jobs are bullshit.
That's the real problem.
They're bullshit.
I mean, part of what you were feeling when you saw those guys across the street and they were living their life, you realize that you were contained.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I was literally in a box.
And the professor in the cage, the cage is the cage.
It's a fighting cage.
But it's also my office, you know, my cubicle where I worked.
And so the book is about getting out of that cubicle, you know.
I was, you know, getting out of my academic cage.
joe rogan
If this thing sold like crazy, would you be willing to write the professor in the mat and enter into jiu-jitsu tournaments?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, for sure, man.
joe rogan
The professor in the yoga room?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
joe rogan
Adventures as a wannabe yogi?
jonathan gottschall
Start a franchise, yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, definitely.
Now, what is boring about teaching English?
jonathan gottschall
It wasn't that it was boring.
I don't know.
You know, I was teaching a lot of writing classes, especially freshman writing.
And freshman writing at my college was mandatory, which means that everyone there is a captive.
You know, at most college courses, you get to take whatever you want to take.
There's electives.
You're not forced to be anywhere.
This is a class you're forced to be in.
And so I was teaching freshman composition over and over and over again to students who just couldn't care less, you know.
And so that was lame.
The main problem, though, was I was an adjunct.
Do you know what an adjunct is?
joe rogan
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
An adjunct is like not a full-time faculty member.
So, you know, for like almost 10 years, I've been making about 16 grand a year, you know, just kind of chasing this dream of being a boyhood dream, really, of being a college professor, of being a scholar.
I wanted to be that guy, like the guy who makes some small but Meaningful contribution to knowledge and I've been chasing that dream for a long time and writing books and doing the articles and doing all kinds of stuff but it just wasn't my research was a little bit non-conventional and it just wasn't I wasn't making it you know what I mean and so and I just didn't have the courage to quit it wasn't I don't know if it was a courage thing or if it was a A desire thing.
I don't like quitting on something I've invested in.
It's hard.
You know, it's like if you're gambling, you know, you throw money in the pot.
You don't want to fucking fold, even though you know you should fold.
And so when I started, when I went across the street that first time, I made that joke at my own expense.
It wouldn't be funny if I went over there.
Part of it, part of what was driving me to cross over there was a career suicide fantasy.
I was thinking to myself, well, you apparently don't have the courage to quit your job and move on to something else.
Maybe you can do something offensive enough to people in your profession that will get you fired.
And so if I showed up in the cage, everybody in my department would be able to, honest to God, like look up from the poems they were reading, you know, reading their poems, they look up and they'd be able to see me right across the street, you know, engaged in blood sport.
And they don't really approve of blood sport in English departments.
joe rogan
What has the reaction been amongst your peers?
jonathan gottschall
Okay, career suicide fantasy, right?
So I went over there thinking, I can't quit, maybe I can get myself fired.
On my campus, people were much more tolerant and open-minded than I had hoped.
You know?
They didn't get furious with me.
They didn't try to fire me.
It's because they know me.
They know I'm not a savage animal.
They know I'm a decent human being.
The bigger question is what effect will it have within the larger profession?
Will it be an effective career suicide strategy once other people in the profession get a hold of the book?
And I do think probably it'll be a success as a career suicide strategy.
About two weeks after the book came out, this article came out about me and about the book in this magazine that no one reads in the real world called The Chronicle of Higher Education.
But it's the main trade magazine for academia.
And the book comes off pretty much as a...
Glorification of macho barbarism in their thinking.
You know, a dumb glorification of butchery and barbarism.
You know what I mean?
joe rogan
Butchery even?
unidentified
Well...
joe rogan
Were you just using that word and didn't use that word?
unidentified
Savagery.
jonathan gottschall
Savagery and barbarism.
joe rogan
Sounds like it was written by a pussy.
jonathan gottschall
Just saying.
There's a lot of...
So that could be effective in ending my career, because that's a guy, like I read about that, and I read the article, I said to my wife, like, okay, that ends it.
There it is.
joe rogan
Really?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
Is he well-written?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Did the guy have any points?
jonathan gottschall
No.
I mean, no, I mean...
joe rogan
I thought it sounded good to be well-written.
jonathan gottschall
Well, it's funny, it's like...
joe rogan
And they didn't have points.
jonathan gottschall
Because he's a good writer.
joe rogan
Okay.
jonathan gottschall
You know what I mean?
But I don't think it's good journalism.
But it's good writing.
joe rogan
Well, it's editorial.
I mean, whenever you...
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
It was a feature, a sort of portrait.
And instead of making an actual portrait, he sort of drew a caricature, in my opinion.
joe rogan
A caricature of you or of what...
Me and the book.
Of what you're trying to accomplish or of the sport itself?
jonathan gottschall
Let me give you one example.
So, one example he quotes in the book is, like, we're at lunch.
You know, and we're having a nice time, and at some point, I lean across the table toward him, and I say to him, like this, you know, across the table in an intimidating fashion, what would it take?
unidentified
What would I have to say to get you to punch me in the face?
joe rogan
Is that what you said to him?
Really?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I said it to him.
But if you strip out all the damn context.
So in context, that statement is about me saying how hard it is to get guys to punch you in the face.
That men are fairly peaceable.
Men avoid conflict.
They're fairly prudent about throwing their fists around.
Most guys will go to great lengths to find a face-saving way out of a violent confrontation.
So within context, the statement was almost the opposite of what it made it seem like.
joe rogan
Right.
So, in his words, you were intimidating him?
jonathan gottschall
Pretty much, yeah.
joe rogan
Well, maybe that's just how he took it.
Some people are super uncomfortable with any idea, like any form of conflict, you know, and they would like to categorize any kind of violent interaction, even voluntary violent interaction, like a mixed martial arts competition, as being barbaric, as having no virtue, as having no...
there's no nobility.
jonathan gottschall
I get that, too.
And I think, I don't know if it's harder for you to get into that mind space, but it's not hard for me to get into that mind space.
joe rogan
The mind space of?
jonathan gottschall
Of a person who looks at that and sees no redemption in it, sees nothing good about it.
joe rogan
I don't have a hard time.
It's easy for me to get into that.
It sounds crazy because I... It's my job.
I mean, I'm a mixed martial arts commentator for the UFC, but I have a problem with damage.
I live a very contradictory existence.
jonathan gottschall
I was gonna ask you about this.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean, I love watching fights.
I have always loved watching fights.
I love...
That people have this burning desire in them to do what I think is the most difficult sport in the world.
I don't think there's anything even close.
I think as far as the emotions that are invested in trying to win and the devastating effect of a loss...
And then the actual physical damage that you take along the way.
Your vehicle that you're racing is your own body.
And unlike a race car, your body will respond only if you push it in training.
You have to elevate its capacity.
You have to elevate its tolerances.
And you have to do that intelligently, and it has to be done in the watchful eye.
of trainers and along the way there's all these variables you have to take into account strength and conditioning what kind of a body type are you dealing with what you know what skill set do you have what needs to be improved objectivity objectively and analyzing your strengths and weaknesses looking at your skill set looking at the weapons that you have that you need to keep sharp and looking at ones that you need to acquire there's so many variables to me it's the ultimate Problem-solving, high-level competition.
I don't think there's anything like it.
But I have a problem with a lot of the assholes.
I have a problem with a lot of the thuggish behavior.
I have a problem with, I mean, even though I know a lot of it is psychological warfare and trying to intimidate each other, I have a problem with some of that.
I have a problem with the damage that guys take.
I have a real problem with that.
I have a real problem with guys not knowing when to get out, with their friends telling them, listen man, just gotta put together one hard camp.
You're like, no, no, he's been knocked out seven fucking times.
Like, no, he needs to preserve his brain for the rest of his life.
Have you ever met an old man that used to fight?
I have.
It's not fun.
It's not fun at all.
It's very uncomfortable to talk to a guy who tells the same fucking story over and over and over and over and over and over.
jonathan gottschall
Do you know why UFC fighters like that?
joe rogan
Yes.
Yes, I do.
And I know UFC fighters who didn't used to be like that, who are like that now.
And they're some of my all-time favorites.
jonathan gottschall
Well, this is the big question for me.
Let me ask one more question.
The other day on the podcast, you mentioned Howard Cosell giving up that work after seeing a particularly gruesome fight.
joe rogan
Larry Holmes, Tex Cobb.
jonathan gottschall
You ever think that could happen to you?
joe rogan
It's possible.
Yeah, it's possible that there'll come a day where I can't do it anymore, that I don't want to do it anymore.
I'll probably always be a fan to some extent.
But like my favorite guy is Mighty Mouse.
You know, people think like my all-time favorite guys Some of the craziest like Vanderlei Silva is one of my all-time favorites because his fights were fucking chaos You knew if you're gonna watch a Vanderlei Silva fight that dude across the ring and he's wiggling his wrists back in the pride days doing this shit He was probably one of the best middleweights ever You know, or light heavyweight in that division is 203, but they called it middleweight.
They called the 185 pound division was Walter weight, I think.
But Vanderlei, who was just the opposite of like...
Mighty Mouse.
Like, Mighty Mouse is my favorite currently because he fights so fucking intelligently.
Everything he does, his movement, his footwork, his positioning, he's always in condition.
His conditioning is insane.
They can just push guys to the point where they just cannot keep up with him.
And his technical superiority over all the competition is just so obvious.
And his work ethic, his intelligence, he's a great role model.
When you hear him talk, he's a very intelligent young man, but also humble and friendly.
I mean, you see him.
The only thing that tells you that guy's a martial arts fighter is his ears.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
You look at him, he seems so friendly and so nice, but then he gets in there.
He's the baddest motherfucker in the world, pound for pound, in my opinion.
He's just 125 pounds.
jonathan gottschall
He doesn't get the attention because of that.
joe rogan
No, but other than that, Fedor, who was just violence, every one of his fights was violence, but intelligence, and Anderson, who was just a wizard.
Anderson in his prime was the wizard of all wizards.
He would pull off things where you'd just go, get the fuck out of here, what did I just see?
jonathan gottschall
I like...
My favorite has always been Machida.
joe rogan
Machida's great, too.
jonathan gottschall
I just like...
There's something...
There's a beauty and grace to the way he fights.
He reminds me of a matador.
He kind of looks like a matador.
You know, he's got that kind of dark complexion and dark hair.
joe rogan
I think Machida spent too much of his career fighting at 205. I totally agree.
jonathan gottschall
He's too small for 185. Which is crazy.
Rockhold dwarfs him.
joe rogan
Rockhold's a giant.
jonathan gottschall
And, you know...
Weidman is way bigger, too.
joe rogan
I just don't know how...
jonathan gottschall
And he's about to fight Romero, who's gonna dwarf him, too.
joe rogan
Romero's huge.
jonathan gottschall
Romero's huge.
So he's taking abuse from these huge guys.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I just don't know how he fought at 205 for so long.
He would weigh in at 203 and, like, not cut any weight at all and then fight Tito Ortiz.
jonathan gottschall
He weighed 230 or something, right?
joe rogan
He's a big, giant dude.
Yeah.
I mean, he fought...
Tiago Silva was huge at 205. He fought some big-ass fucking dudes.
But he fought very brilliantly.
But he's also...
He's in his late 30s.
I think he's 37 or 38. And your body just...
You only have so many miles.
You don't get to change the tires.
You don't get to upgrade the suspension.
jonathan gottschall
He's taken some abuse.
joe rogan
Well, the Rockhold fight was the most abuse he's ever taken.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I didn't like that fight.
joe rogan
I mean, Jon Jones choked him out.
Yeah.
And when a guy chokes you out like that, that's not nearly as bad.
Shogun KO'd him essentially with one punch.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
So those were like two big losses before, but this Rockhold fight was a fucking molestation.
It was a brutal...
I mean, I shouldn't say that word.
I should say it was an assault.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's what it was.
jonathan gottschall
It was brutal.
That's what I didn't like about that fight.
By the end, it was an assault on a helpless victim.
And I feel like, you were saying this too, that that's a fight that should have been ended probably on the stool.
joe rogan
I agree.
jonathan gottschall
You know, his corner should have ended it.
joe rogan
Well, they didn't even put his mouthpiece in for the second round.
We didn't know about it.
He was saying something to the referee and pointing at his mouth, and I was trying to figure out what he was saying.
While they were squaring off?
When he was on the bottom and Rockhold was beating him up, he said to the referee something and pointed to his mouth that he didn't have a mouthpiece in, and the referee didn't pick it up.
I mean, you gotta check that.
The corners, it's ultimately their fault, but the referee fucked up too.
You can't let a guy fight and get the shit beat out of him with no mouthpiece in.
jonathan gottschall
Well, can we go back to that question about the conflict you feel between being a fan of this sport, a massive fan of this sport.
No one's a bigger fan than you.
I'm a huge fan of this sport, too.
But also that sense of, you know, dividedness, you know, that you know, I mean, here's how I feel about it.
It's like, I feel like We're trapped in this kind of devil's bargain.
You know, we love this sport.
We admire the athletes, too, and worship them.
We admire their heroism, their courage, their skill, their stamina, all of it.
And we love the drama of it.
We love the savagery of it.
We love the technique of it.
But at the same time, we know it costs these guys too much.
I guess my question is, is there any way out of this devil's bargain?
Is there a way that we can make these sports safer than it is?
joe rogan
Well, I think you and I are both in agreement with the gloves issue and you wrote something about it and I discussed it with Sam Harris.
I've discussed it with a bunch of people.
I feel like This would kind of be contradictory for people who don't train in martial arts, but I'll try to explain it visually for people who watch this, which is a much smaller percentage of the population.
If you look at someone's wrist, your wrist, when you hit things, Your wrist tends to wiggle around.
It flexes.
It's very hard to keep your wrist stiff and hit things hard, especially repeatedly when you're bouncing your wrist off of elbows and shoulders and even foreheads.
You tend to break your hands much easier if you don't have wraps.
And when you see a fighter in the UFC and they have those gloves on, those gloves aren't really protecting the other opponent, the opponent, the person you're punching, nearly as much as they're protecting the person who's punching the opponent.
But the big thing to me is not just the gloves, it's the wraps.
I feel like when you tape up your wrist...
jonathan gottschall
You cast it.
joe rogan
Yeah, you tape up your wrist, you tape up your hands, you make that thing hard as fuck.
Before I work out, before I hit the bag or hit the pads or anything like that, I tape this fucking bitch down, I go in between my knuckles, I have these pads that I put over my knuckles, and I tape over them, and then I go everything with athletic tape, and at the end of it, that fucking thing...
You can slam things with it, and it just, it's unnatural.
You have an unnatural situation with your hands, and when people say, well, it looks barbaric if you bare knuckle, let me tell you something, you would be way better off with me bare knuckle punching you than you would with me kicking you with my shin.
And that's totally legal.
Head kicks, heel, like, when you see, like, Terry Edom versus Edson Barbosa, and Edson Barbosa wheel kicks him in the head, there is not a fucking punch that's ever been thrown by a human being, ever, that has the kind of power that a fucking wheel kick has.
Your legs are, I mean, especially not that weight class, you'd have to have, like, the biggest, most giant heavyweight boxer, and still, I don't think they could probably punch as hard as a world-class kickboxer can throw a kick like that.
jonathan gottschall
Those kicks are rare, though.
I mean, one of the things that was interesting to me is there's a paper out in some journal, like the Canadian Journal of Criminology, not Criminology, sorry, Sports Medicine or something like that, went through all the UFC fights over, like, I'd say a decade, and saw how they ended.
And when it came to KOs and TKOs, 85% of them were from the hands.
So my feeling is, you know, again, people have the wrong idea about these gloves.
They really have the wrong idea.
They think it makes the sport safer.
And they think it can make it safer, safer.
And it does make it safer for the guy's hands.
And the cost of that is making it exponentially more dangerous for the other guy's brain.
You take those gloves off.
Those guys cannot throw their hands around like that.
unidentified
No.
jonathan gottschall
If you glove it up, tape it up, you turn that fragile, vulnerable fist into a brutally dangerous cudgel.
You can throw around from all these different angles.
You can throw Roy Nelson style overhand rights.
You can't throw that punch without gloves on.
You'll break your hand.
Instantly, you KO yourself.
If you punch the skull with a bare hand, the skull punches you back.
joe rogan
Yeah, if you hit someone, if someone just ducks down and you hit them with a straight punch on the forehead, it's like punching a wall.
jonathan gottschall
So to me, there was this tragedy that happened.
And it happened in boxing.
It happened in boxing in 1867. You know, boxing was on the verge of getting outlawed, basically, for being savage.
And they said, okay, we'll change the rules.
We'll add these different elements.
We'll make it possible for the referees to stop fight.
And we'll put pillows on the guy's fists.
So it was a well-intended thing.
It's a well-intended thing where a well-intended humanitarian gesture will make the sport safer by putting these pillows on these guys' hands.
And the UFC made exactly the same mistake 130 years later or something.
They were on the verge of getting outlawed.
They were having all kinds of political problems.
And so they reformed.
They said, we're going to outlaw these really brutal-looking techniques, and we are also going to take away the prime symbol In the public's mind of the savagery of cage fighting, which is bare-fisted fighting.
It's even in our language.
When we say, we're going to take the gloves off, that means we're going to resort to a really primitive style of brutality.
And so So it was a well-intended gesture that backfired in a tragic way.
So people think that the sort of savagery and the damage and the danger, the neurological danger especially, of fighting is intrinsic to the sport and unavoidable.
And it's not really true.
You could massively decrease the danger, the neurological danger of the sport, just by taking off the gloves.
joe rogan
But could you, because a big percentage of the blows that guys receive, they receive in training, and you're very unlikely to train bare and uncle.
So you're gonna still get tagged.
jonathan gottschall
You're right.
You're right.
joe rogan
There's also, it impedes grappling in a lot of ways.
unidentified
The gloves do.
joe rogan
The gloves do.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, of course, yeah.
joe rogan
They get in the way of a lot of chokes.
jonathan gottschall
You can grab them, their handles, you can't get them in, I mean, you close your neck up, you can't get your gloves in.
joe rogan
Some guys use them intelligently to actually finish chokes.
I've seen Josh Thompson, who's a very clever fella.
He's done rear-naked chokes where he reaches under his own gloves and chokes guys and finishes it.
It's questionable.
I'm not sure.
jonathan gottschall
I know you can't reach inside the other guy's glove.
joe rogan
You can't reach inside the other guy's glove, but I think you can grab your own glove.
jonathan gottschall
You can grab your shorts.
joe rogan
You can grab your shorts to defend yourself.
You can't grab your shorts to finish a technique, though, I don't think.
I don't think.
I think if you had, like, there is a position that you could get where you could have your arm wrapped around a guy's neck and grab your own shorts and use your own shorts to aid in the choke.
I wonder if you could do that.
I wonder if you could do it offense, I probably should know this, seeing as I do it for a living, but I know that you can use it defensively, which is big with Kim Warris.
If a guy's going for a shoulder lock and you reach deep into your shorts and you hold on to them, it could be just enough to protect you, to keep you from getting tapped.
jonathan gottschall
But I think, you know, if you take the gloves off, too, I've argued with some people about this.
They're like, well, if you did that, then guys would just throw more kicks, they'd throw more knees, they'd throw more elbows.
joe rogan
They would.
It'd be a little more like bare-knuckle Muay Thai.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, but I think, you know, I think, paradoxically, taking the gloves off would also weaken all the other weapons.
Because it's really hard to kick somebody in the head.
joe rogan
Not if you're Donald Cerrone.
jonathan gottschall
Well, but partly it's because they have to respect his fists.
They have to have a lot of respect for his fists.
joe rogan
Yeah, but it's also like you get close to him, you get kneed, like you get elbowed.
You know, I see, I kind of disagree with that because I think it really just depends upon what kind of skill set you get into MMA with.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
If you get a guy who's a really good kicker and you take away the gloves, you just made his kicks better because now he doesn't have to worry nearly as much about the other guy's punches.
unidentified
Oh, he doesn't have to worry.
jonathan gottschall
That's true.
That's a good point.
I was thinking of the other guy.
The defender wouldn't be as vulnerable to the kick because he can look for the kick more because he doesn't have to beware of the other guy's fist.
But you're right, the kicker doesn't have to worry about it.
That's a good point.
joe rogan
One of the biggest problems with the gloves is the fact that the fingers are wide open and guys are poking each other in the eye all the time.
It's a huge issue.
The UFC's tried to figure out a way to do it, to mitigate it, to have the same gloves, but make something where they curve more.
I think Bellator came out with this Everlast glove that I think has two opposing benefits.
It's more curved, which I think is better to avoid some of the pokes like the old Pride gloves, but also it's got more padding.
On the top to protect the knuckles so they have less broken hands.
But that means to me that guys can punch harder.
So it's like you're more free to punch, but you're less likely to poke.
I will take that.
andy stumpf
I'll take the less likely to get the eye pokes.
joe rogan
Because I think the eye pokes, that's a huge tragic issue.
For people who aren't familiar with the sport, Muay Thai, the art of Thai boxing, they have a very specific style of using the hands.
Well, they'll put the hands on the forehead and they'll throw knees.
They'll put the hands up and they'll throw kicks.
They have a lot, especially in different practitioners, they have a lot of ways of using it.
But when they're doing it in the gym or in the ring, they're usually wearing big boxing gloves.
And the boxing gloves don't have anything free to poke.
But fingers, in the MMA gloves, the fingers are completely exposed.
And when guys utilize the same techniques to try to keep a guy off them, they oftentimes wind up poking guys right in the eyes, and they cause irreparable damage.
Guys like Alan Belcher, he's been out of the UFC for a long time.
He had knee eye surgery, like significant eye surgery.
Michael Bisping had significant eye surgery.
He has oil in his eye, Bisping does.
unidentified
I heard that, yes.
joe rogan
Dude, when you look at one of his eyes, it's a different color.
It's like you don't see his pupil.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And it's to protect his retina.
unidentified
Yikes.
joe rogan
But he's such a fucking gangster.
That guy's still in there throwing down with one bum eye.
jonathan gottschall
I know.
I wish he could.
Again, though, like, when should these guys quit?
joe rogan
Well, he's still world-class, clearly, you know.
I mean, he's still, he just beat C.B. Dalloway.
And he showed, he's still world-class.
He's still, you know, one of the best guys in the world.
The Kung Lee victory.
I mean, that guy has a chance.
I mean, he really does have a chance still.
He really has a dream, and that dream is to be a world champion.
And that mindset that he has that allows him to fight with one fucked up eye, you know?
And he has got something wrong with his neck.
I mean, he's always, like, banged up.
He's been fighting forever.
He's also been fighting clean.
And a lot of his major losses are from guys who weren't clean.
unidentified
I know.
joe rogan
Even if they weren't legally clean, I mean, even if what they were doing was legal, like Henderson and Vitor, they still weren't clean.
Chael Sonnen wasn't clean.
I mean, all these guys were not clean.
jonathan gottschall
Almost everybody who beat him, right?
joe rogan
Yeah, almost everybody who beat him, except Rockhold.
Rockhold's just a fucking freak of nature.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Freak of nature and a freak of training with Cain Velasquez and Daniel Cormier every fucking day.
He's just so goddamn good and long and strong.
jonathan gottschall
I couldn't believe how big and strong he was compared to Machida.
joe rogan
You know, Javier Mendez, we were talking about it after the fight.
I was like, goddamn, I was congratulating them.
I was like, that was insane.
And they're like, you know, what people don't realize about him is he's fucking strong.
And it's very rare that you get someone who's real long, but also really strong.
Yeah.
I don't know what the fuck he weighs when he actually gets in there, but it ain't 185. He looked giant.
Dude, he dwarfs me.
I weigh 200 pounds, and I know I'm fat, but when I stand next to him, I'm like, get the fuck out of here.
How are you 185?
He's 6'4", and he looks like he's about 220 when he gets into the cage.
It's insane.
I don't know how he makes that weight.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I don't know.
joe rogan
I have no idea how he makes that fucking weight.
But he does it.
And he does it and he can fight hard.
jonathan gottschall
That's the other thing.
With the gloves, talking about ways of making the sport safer, that's another one.
I think that the weight cutting issue is big.
joe rogan
How do you stop that?
jonathan gottschall
It's impossible to stop probably, but to me, the first guy to die in the UFC is just as likely to die in the sauna.
joe rogan
Well, it's come very close.
There's been a few guys backstage that fainted.
They blacked out, and they pulled out of fights.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, Burrell.
joe rogan
Because they couldn't...
Yeah, and Burrell was a big one.
That was a big one.
Because a rematch with TJ Dillashaw, the fight was one of the fights of the year, one of the upsets of the entire history of the UFC, one of the biggest upsets.
Spectacular performance by T.J. Dillashaw.
Hennenborough trains like a monster ready for this comeback and then passes out in the sauna or the bathtub, I guess, and cracked his head off the wall and they wouldn't let him fight him.
He knocked himself out trying to get up out of the tub.
I felt like that in yoga today, man.
I felt like I was going to black out.
jonathan gottschall
Did you really?
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
No, but I mean, it's like elevated by a thousand.
unidentified
Do you ever do the headstands?
joe rogan
Yeah, yeah.
jonathan gottschall
I do feel like I'm going to pass out on the headstands.
joe rogan
I've just, I've felt like, I've realized what a bitch I am when I'm grabbing my toes and I'm like, God, I need a break.
It's too hot in here.
You think about what these guys have to do in the fucking sauna to drop 20 pounds of water weight and that they do it every three or four months.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I only had one actual fight, but I cut weight twice because the first fight I showed up to and my opponent, fearing the legendary fistic prowess of English professors, He backed out.
joe rogan
He backed out the day of?
unidentified
Day of.
jonathan gottschall
I got on the scale and everything.
I'm looking around.
My guy's not there.
I was scared.
It's nerve-wracking to fight, but after you've gone through the weight cut, man, you don't want to not fight.
joe rogan
What was wrong with him?
jonathan gottschall
He just didn't show up.
You know, it's small-time, amateur shows, and a lot of guys just say, hey, you know, well, this seemed like a good idea a couple months ago, but, you know, as it got close, he wasn't hurt or anything.
joe rogan
We had a guy from our gym that would have panic attacks, and there was a couple fights.
One fight where he almost couldn't do it.
Like, he was just falling apart backstage, and he went out there and did it, but he lost.
He got beat up pretty bad.
But then another fight where he just pulled out backstage, day of the fight, Getting prepped, warming up, wrapping the hands the whole day.
I can't do this.
jonathan gottschall
Holy cow, really?
joe rogan
You know, it happens at the UFC. It happens at the UFC and people don't know.
You know, there's guys that wind up fighting and there's guys that are pretty highly ranked.
I don't want to name any names, but Shaw, Brendan Shaw and I were actually having a conversation about this the other day about guys that were warming up while he was back there.
And they would say to their coach, I don't want to fucking do this anymore.
I'm done.
I don't want to do this anymore.
You've got to fight in an hour.
jonathan gottschall
But then they go out.
joe rogan
And they go out.
jonathan gottschall
That's amazing to me because part of the reason I fought finally was because of the social pressure.
Once you've started off down this path, it becomes like this thing where you've told people you're going to do it and everybody at the gym knows you're going to do it.
So one time I kind of tried to back out.
Months before my actual fight, I said, you know, other riders have done this, and I'm all hurt.
There's no reason to do it.
And I went in and told one of the guys at the gym that I was kind of leaning away from doing it.
He's like, well, so you're pussying out, huh?
And then I told another guy, and he said, so you're pussying out, huh?
So everybody's kind of said that, and it becomes this huge pressure to do it.
And I felt more fear of a failure in courage than I did of the sort of whatever was going to happen to me in the cage, breaking my nose or whatever.
I felt much more fear that I would just find a way to chicken out in the end.
I'd get cold feet.
I'd refuse to climb the steps and get in the cage.
Maybe I'd run for it in the cage, just sprinting circles around the outside, jump over the fence, run for home.
You know, I honestly thought that could happen, you know?
joe rogan
Wow.
jonathan gottschall
So, I can relate.
It's kind of amazing that I got backed out backstage because there's so much, at that point, your whole...
The whole warrior society sees you doing it.
You know what I mean?
It's a big blow.
joe rogan
Maybe it's injured.
You know, sometimes guys are injured and then they get there and they realize, like, I can't fucking do this.
I can't move my leg right.
There's a lot of guys who fight.
That's another thing.
A lot of guys who fight in the UFC that are fucked up.
They're really injured by the time they get in there.
I know guys who have hid...
Torn ACLs where their ACLs were completely blown out and they really had no stability like they would they would try to move one way or another and then they would just give right out yeah and there's I mean there's got to be nothing more terrifying than being in the octagon and competing against some highly trained Well-prepared killer, and you can't even move right.
If you juke left or right, your leg's going to go boink!
Have you blown out a knee before?
Do you know that feeling?
jonathan gottschall
No, I've never done that.
It's the worst.
joe rogan
It's not the worst.
The worst is obviously way worse, but it's a bad feeling because you just know it's going to give out.
You don't know when.
And you go to move left or move right, and it just goes boing!
And ACL is particularly because that's the big one that goes down the center of the knee that keeps it stable moving forward.
It can blow out on a lot of people.
It blows out.
justin wren
It's like one of the more common knee injuries.
joe rogan
Dominic Cruz, of course, is famously going through his second one, his third operation, second knee, though.
It's fucking crazy.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, it's awful.
joe rogan
Yeah.
It's real common though.
Georges St-Pierre got both his knees done.
One of them blew out after his career was over, or after he stepped down for a little bit.
Yeah.
You know, so many Rondas had her ACL done.
A lot of fighters have had their ACLs done.
It's probably one of the most common injuries that fighters have in UFC. Any sport, really.
jonathan gottschall
ACL seems...
joe rogan
Soccer, apparently, is the most common.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, football all the time.
Basketball all the time.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, the human body is designed to get you to age 26, and by then you're almost dead.
Saber-toothed tigers are looking for you to show up limping.
jonathan gottschall
That's true.
joe rogan
It's just shit design, man.
jonathan gottschall
Well, it's a shit design for playing NFL football.
joe rogan
For punching people in the head is a shit design?
jonathan gottschall
And it's a shit design for fighting for a living.
You know what I mean?
It's not made for that.
No.
That's a bit much.
joe rogan
Well, when you see an NFL player, and I've only met a few of them, but when you meet them, they're like giants from Game of Thrones.
You're like, what?
That's a real person?
Jesus fucking Christ.
I remember one time I was in Phoenix, and we had just got done with the show.
We did a comedy show at the Tempe Improv, and then we went to a bar.
And when we went to a bar, there was this big line of people that were trying to get to this place.
We were meeting our friend there.
And one of these guys was an NFL player.
And he just sort of, it was like a man amongst children.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
He was just like moving through this crowd.
He was about six foot seven.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And he was probably 350 pounds.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
And he was so fucking big.
unidentified
I know.
joe rogan
Like you looked at him and you just go, Jesus Christ!
jonathan gottschall
Well, you feel like a girl.
You feel like a girl.
I was, I had a friend like that, you know, he played big time college football and he was six, seven, 200, high 200s.
And I'd stand with him at the bar, and it was like, and I'd be looking at his tits, you know, and I'd be like, this is how you had to talk to him.
I'm like, this is what it feels like for women.
unidentified
Yeah.
All the time, they're looking up over this guy that can just do this.
joe rogan
Except they get turned on by them, and they want to fuck them.
jonathan gottschall
That's true.
joe rogan
That's different.
I hope you didn't get turned on.
Well, if you did, keep it to yourself.
jonathan gottschall
That's fine.
But it's more worrisome, like, is he gonna try to fuck me?
unidentified
Because I hope he doesn't, because I'll have no choice.
joe rogan
Yeah, there's no equality when it comes to physical attributes.
There's certain people that were just given a way better genetic roll of the dice.
I mean, that's why we have weight classes.
That's why Mighty Mouse can never fight Jon Jones.
The argument can take place as to who's better pound for pound, John or Mighty Mouse, and there's a lot of arguments both ways, but as far as like what would happen if they fight, there's no argument.
jonathan gottschall
There's no argument at all.
joe rogan
I mean, John Jones is talented enough where he probably could fight and beat most of the heavyweights, if not all the heavyweights.
jonathan gottschall
I think he, yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
This whole thing with him is so tragic.
It's so tragic.
More tragic for the woman he hit with his car, but so tragic for him because I don't know him well enough to know where his mind's at or who he's talking to.
You hear all these bad things, like the people that he's hanging out with and the people that he surrounds himself with.
You hear some of them from his coaches, so there's got to be some validity and truth to it.
For every guy like that that's super fucking talented, it seems like it's so hard to stay on track.
It's like Mike Tyson had Customato.
You know, and Customato was not just a great trainer, but he was also a great mental coach.
Like he had instilled lessons in Mike Tyson about fire and fear and all the different aspects of competition that are gonna arise and how the hero and the coward feel the same thing.
It's just the hero reacts to it differently.
The more you prepare your body, the less, not fear, but the less confusion you have when you get into that ring, the less doubt you have, the more clarity you have.
You're 100% confident in your conditioning.
You're 100% confident in your training.
There will be certain fear, but you can mitigate some of that.
And all this was, Customato just was a genius with Tyson.
Plus, he was like a father figure.
He was like a perfect example.
jonathan gottschall
But John Jones had a father.
He had a good father, middle class upbringing.
joe rogan
He still does.
But what I'm saying is, a coach, you don't need that just in a father.
I mean, his father's a great guy.
jonathan gottschall
But doesn't he have that out in Albuquerque with Jackson?
joe rogan
I think he does to a certain extent.
But John Jones is so fucking good.
The guys who train with him, the guys who talk, like if you talk to people, you're like, he's so good.
He's so much better than everybody else in the gym.
He's so much better than that.
When you saw him grab ahold of Daniel Cormier and wrestle Cormier to the ground the first round, you're like, listen, this is another fucking level of shit you're dealing with.
You're dealing with like another level of greatness, another level of ability.
And when you, you know, you see a guy like that get involved in...
I mean, the cocaine thing, man, that didn't bother me that much.
It's like, you know, so he's doing coke three weeks out.
He's a bad motherfucker.
He wants a party.
You know, that's how I look at it.
unidentified
You know why?
joe rogan
Because I'm not...
I don't look at this as like...
jonathan gottschall
No, I don't have any...
joe rogan
Some Puritan...
jonathan gottschall
No, no, me neither.
joe rogan
He's like, let's have fun.
Would I get upset if he had a drink three, you know, three months out?
No.
Or three weeks out?
How many weeks was it?
How many weeks was it before the fight?
jonathan gottschall
About that.
That sounds right.
joe rogan
Four or five weeks?
I don't know what it was.
But would I get mad if he had a beer?
Donald Cerrone drinks Budweiser up until the fucking week of his weight cut.
That's a fact.
And he doesn't just drink a little.
He drinks a lot.
What's worse for you, alcohol or cocaine?
Well, I don't know how much John was doing, but a little line here and there is probably not as bad as the amount of Budweiser that Donald sucks down.
jonathan gottschall
That's true.
That's true.
joe rogan
I mean, I don't fucking know, man.
I don't know.
I think part of the issue that people have with a guy like John, who's just so uber-talented, and he's so young, and all these things come handy to him, or come so easy to him, is that when a guy like that professes to be very moral and very religious, and then you see all this craziness, like testing positive for cocaine, and the drunk driving, crashing into the tree with strippers in his car.
It's like...
Clearly, he likes to have fun, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that.
jonathan gottschall
Nothing wrong at all.
It's part of the drill.
Yeah, he's being dumb about it, though, you know, so go party, but...
joe rogan
It could be that nobody can control.
I mean, it's also like when you're that kind of good, you don't want to listen to anybody.
You know, you're the fucking man.
jonathan gottschall
Except there's tons of guys in the UFC and other sports who keep it together.
George St. Pierre was awesome.
joe rogan
Oh, he was very disciplined.
jonathan gottschall
But George fucked up, too.
joe rogan
George fucked up, too.
Like, George totally underestimated Matt Serra.
Totally underestimated Matt Serra.
Got in there with him and got crushed.
And that's just, you gotta dot your I's and cross your T's all day, every day.
You can't take anyone lightly.
I've seen that many times where guys were way favored over their opponent, but they took it lightly because they were favored and their opponent was terrified because they were the underdog.
So they trained like a demon and the other guy slacked off and went in there with a false sense of confidence and also a Minimized sense of danger.
Yeah, like nobody likes that fucking feeling man you and you went through it, right?
That feeling of being the locker room.
You're like fuck when is this over?
Get me out there.
Yeah when I stopped competing That was the one thing that I appreciated the most like I didn't have to feel like I was always scared.
Yeah, I was always like waiting for the next fight and You know, the book is, I say it's about the duel.
jonathan gottschall
The duel, you know, the pistols at dawn, broadly defined, sort of mano a mano.
joe rogan
This is for you, man.
Keep that, actually.
jonathan gottschall
Hey, sweet.
joe rogan
Thank you.
jonathan gottschall
Hey, it's awesome.
joe rogan
Think about me when you drink your coffee.
jonathan gottschall
That's great, man.
I already think about you when I drink my coffee.
But it's sort of a mono-a-mono conflict of various kinds.
An MMA fight, or any kind of combat sport fight, is kind of a duel.
You set it up in advance.
You have seconds who negotiate for you, work your corner and all that stuff.
And you know weeks out, months out, even longer, that you're going to be in a car crash at such and such a time.
And it weighs on you.
It weighs on you so heavy.
Whereas, if you were to walk out in the parking lot right now and some guy picked a fight with you, That would be bad, but you wouldn't have the same kind of fear, that anxiety, the buildup to it.
So, yeah, I was glad to get that out of my life because I lived with that for a long time because it took me a long time to get a fight.
It took me a long time because I was old, and the state commission makes it pretty hard for older fighters to allow a certain matchup.
And fights kept falling through, or somebody would not show up, or I would get hurt, or the other guy would get hurt.
And so I lived with that sense that the fight was right around the corner.
For maybe six months.
joe rogan
Did it fuck with your sleep?
jonathan gottschall
Oh, everything.
Yeah, I just lived in...
I lived with this mild sense of anxiety punctuated by these stabs of terror.
You know what I mean?
And that's when I would start negotiating with myself, saying to myself, you know, other writers have done this before.
unidentified
What the hell?
jonathan gottschall
What's the point of this?
There's no point in actually fighting.
You know, you can train at the gym.
You can do a lot of stuff.
There's no point in actually having the actual fight.
So I was glad to get that out of the way, and I was glad to get out of the weight management, because that was the other hard thing about it.
So for those six months, I was staying at a very...
Low weight.
joe rogan
What were you trying to weigh in at?
jonathan gottschall
Well, I started the project at close to 200 pounds.
I was heavier.
I was kind of fat.
And then I, you know, so I could fight at 185. I could fight at 205, you know, bulk up and, you know, fight the huge guys.
But I decided to fight all the way down to 170. So I cut down to where I was walking around like 180. Because at the amateurs, you don't have 24 or 30 hours, whatever it is to rehydrate.
joe rogan
How much do you have?
jonathan gottschall
We weighed in at 10 o'clock in the morning for fights that started at 7. That day?
That day, yeah.
joe rogan
Whoa, that's dangerous.
jonathan gottschall
Well, people don't cut a lot of weight.
joe rogan
How much did you cut?
jonathan gottschall
I started cutting the week of by starving myself and mild dehydration.
And by the night before my fight, I was like 176, I think.
And then I got up in the morning and sweated it all out.
joe rogan
So you sweat out six pounds?
jonathan gottschall
I actually overdid it.
I kind of screwed up because I didn't have a scale.
I had no idea how much I was actually sweating out.
Well, I had a scale, but you have no idea.
joe rogan
But you cut weight and then fought the same day.
That's illegal in most places.
jonathan gottschall
Well, again, how are they going to know?
How are they going to know?
joe rogan
Did you rehydrate?
jonathan gottschall
Oh, yeah.
I mean, I was at 168.5 at weigh-in.
So I actually lost like seven pounds that morning, or seven and a half pounds.
And then I just, well, no IVs.
joe rogan
No?
jonathan gottschall
No, no, I didn't.
I wasn't doing a scientific weight cut.
joe rogan
But you're a smart guy.
unidentified
Yeah, but I read up on it, but I didn't know how, how would I get a guy to give me an IV? Oh my God, talk to a fucking doctor.
joe rogan
You went through all this preparation and didn't prepare enough to find a doctor?
Yeah, an IV drip is just water.
There's nothing unethical about it.
Well, they do it when you're dehydrated.
jonathan gottschall
That does not appear to be the culture of the MMA world that I was moving in.
What do you mean?
I don't know that guys were getting IVs.
joe rogan
Well, they're crazy if they're not.
If you're cutting weight, you should get an IV. I still put...
jonathan gottschall
Every pound of those six pounds back on by the time the fight came out.
joe rogan
You know, the issue is not putting the water back on.
It's getting the water into your brain.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's the real issue.
All of the more significant deaths, brain damage, all the big issues in boxing, almost all of them, except for a few isolated events, which were horrible beatings, which is why I think Eric Perez was involved in one.
Is it Eric Perez?
The heavyweight guy was involved in some horrible beating of this Russian guy, and that guy suffered some pretty significant brain damage, which is a heavyweight bout, which is very rare.
jonathan gottschall
It's usually the little guys.
joe rogan
It's usually the people that cut weight.
It's usually the people that cut weight.
The Dukku Kims.
I mean, that's one of the fights where they made the weigh-in the day before the fight.
They changed it after that fight.
They also changed it from 15 rounds to 12 rounds.
Because, you know, people were realizing, like, hey man, like, this is fucking dangerous.
Losing all this weight, you dehydrate your actual brain.
You make yourself more susceptible to brain trauma and bleeding.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
Gerald McClellan's, another one, who was a notoriously huge guy, would cut a tremendous amount of weight to get down.
I think he was fighting at 175. Was he 175 or 168?
I forget what he fought at, but Gerald cut a tremendous amount of weight, got down, fought Nigel Benn, and he was bleeding inside the octagon, or inside the ring rather.
He had an episode where he had a stroke.
Inside the ring like in the middle of his fight.
He had to take a knee and then just quit and realize something was way wrong.
And people were like, I can't believe he quit.
And then he collapsed in his corner and you know, the rest is history.
He's all fucked up now.
And if you went back to the day, if you ever watched that guy fight, have you ever seen Gerald McClellan fight back in the day?
jonathan gottschall
I don't believe so.
joe rogan
Well, he was a terrifying fighter, and the big showdown was always going to be him and Roy Jones Jr. That's what everybody was thinking.
Like, one day, him and Roy Jones Jr. are gonna throw down, and Jerry McClellan was a fucking killer.
He was a killer.
But he fought Nigel Benn, and Nigel Benn was just tough as shit, and they went to war.
Gerald had him all but knocked out had him knocked out of the ring like he went through the ring got back into the ring got back and but just Nigel Benn would not quit and there was a period in the fight somewhere where they collided heads and that was one of the big ones Nigel definitely landed some big punches on him but they collided heads and you could tell like after the headbutt like he was all fucking woozy and whacked out and then you know you had to take a knee and then it was over and And he's blind now.
I think he can't hear.
He can't move.
He's all fucked up, and it's all just from brain bleeding.
So it's a real issue, the dehydration issue.
It's a real issue, not just...
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, and you said, you know, earlier on, you said, you know, how do you stop it?
And I think it is one of those things that's really, really hard to stop because, as you've talked about on the show, any kind of new measure you set up, there's a way to beat it.
There's still going to be cutting weight.
I think amateur wrestling has dealt with this.
Little kits by body fat percentage things or maybe hydration measurements, like you can measure how much...
Hydration they have, so you can tell when the kid is cutting weight through dehydration.
I'm not sure if that would be possible to measure hydration levels.
That might be one way to deal with it.
But I agree with you.
That one's a hard one to fix.
That's why I keep going back to the gloves.
I'm obsessed with the gloves things right now.
joe rogan
Well, you're obsessed with them for a good reason.
jonathan gottschall
I mean, if you agree on this after all your study, after all these years, and I agree on it, why do you think it's not happening?
joe rogan
Because it's incredibly hard to change once these commissions have these rules and regulations in place.
They're very difficult to change.
Once they're established, they're insanely difficult to change.
jonathan gottschall
Do you think the UFC would be against it or for it?
joe rogan
The UFC probably would be against it.
In the current state.
I mean, even if they listen to me, they rationalize, like, oh, you got some good points, and then there would be a butt, blah, blah, blah, we can't, because blah, blah, blah.
jonathan gottschall
What would the blah, blah, blah be?
joe rogan
Well, first of all, people would think it's barbaric.
Public perception.
Yeah, public perception.
More cuts, which is probably true.
Probably a lot more cuts from knuckles.
jonathan gottschall
More hand injuries at first, at least.
joe rogan
Much more hand injuries.
Shorter careers.
It would shorten your careers.
I mean, there's certain guys that have had, like, significant hand injuries.
One of the reasons why, when you see Vitor Belfort throw all these kicks recently, his hands have been broken seven fucking times.
He's had seven injuries.
Seven surgeries, rather.
jonathan gottschall
I think the major obstacle to it, if you thought it all through, the major obstacle to it would be the upside of this is there would be a lot less neurological damage.
The downside to it would be there'd be a lot less neurological damage.
There'd be a lot fewer knockouts.
There'd be a lot less heavy, you know, the barrages of heavy punches.
They'd have to change their repertoire of punches.
They have to go back towards a bare knuckle style of punching.
Much more straight punches.
Trying to throw punches into the fleshy part of the face that you're throwing with more control.
Many more punches to the padded torso.
joe rogan
Using these two knuckles as well.
Using the front two knuckles.
jonathan gottschall
I actually read a bare knuckle boxing book.
They go back to the techniques of how it was done back then.
The two knuckle thing is what I always learn too.
That's what boxers teach.
That's what martial artists teach.
It makes some sense.
They're saying This is the surface.
You turn it that way.
So you have more surface area.
So you're not putting so much damage here.
And I've heard people say you're in alignment there, but you're kind of also in alignment there.
It's not so bad either.
joe rogan
And they throw them like this, too.
Right.
The bare knuckle boxing, what you're saying is they would throw it perpendicularly instead of parallel with the ground.
jonathan gottschall
Throw a perpendicular punch into a boxing, into a heavy bag, and see what it feels like.
joe rogan
You don't get as much power, though.
jonathan gottschall
You get not nearly as much power.
And it's designed to be that way.
To preserve the hand.
Yeah, because your fist will just explode on contact.
joe rogan
Some people wouldn't have any problem with it.
Some people would like big giant hands like Brock Lesnar hands or Shane Carwin hands.
Those guys probably wouldn't have nearly as much problem.
But if you can go back to the old UFC's and you see when guys fought bare knuckle you very rarely saw like blistering combinations like you'll see like a guy like Vitor throw.
You know, barrages of punches.
You very rarely see those because you just kind of can't.
You kind of can't do those without breaking your hand.
jonathan gottschall
And they did break their hands.
joe rogan
A lot.
jonathan gottschall
So, you know, I start off that article I wrote with a retrospective on, remember this fight, one of the greatest fights in the UFC, Hackney versus Yarborough?
joe rogan
Sure.
He bitch slapped him.
jonathan gottschall
You know, so Yarborough was like a 600-pound single wrestler who's 6'8".
joe rogan
Hackney's probably 215, maybe.
jonathan gottschall
He weighed in 200. 200?
200, karate guy.
And this was the early Wild West days of the USC, where they're like, what'll happen?
We don't know.
Let's see what happens.
What happens when a normal-sized man fights a giant...
And, you know, long story short, Hackney hits him in the head 41 straight times, I counted, with his right hand.
And at some point, you know, he gets Yarbrough turtled up on the ground, and he's hitting him from the back, and he's hooking him from behind.
He's coming in the back of the skull.
You could do that back then.
He's raising his hand up high like a blackjack.
And he's like hammer fisting on one side and then hammer fisting it on the other.
And he just screwed up his hand terribly.
So, you know, he walks, you know, Yarbrough walks out of the ring.
He's fine.
He tapped out verbally, but he walked out of the ring looking no worse for wear.
Those punches weren't all that effective.
Hackney goes out of the ring looking at his fist and it's swelling up and it's bleeding.
And that was the end for him.
He didn't get to go to the next round because he had broken his hand.
And so, to me, it's this great illustration of what would have happened if Hackney had a glove on.
He would have beaten him to sleep.
unidentified
Maybe.
jonathan gottschall
Probably.
joe rogan
Big head.
Yarbrough's a big dude.
jonathan gottschall
Hackney is a strong guy.
joe rogan
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
And he threw 41 punches at his brain.
And Yarbrough was putting up no defense.
He weighed 600 pounds.
He couldn't get up.
joe rogan
Yeah, literally.
jonathan gottschall
He was stuck there on the ground.
He's just laying there and getting punched in the head over and over and over again.
joe rogan
Yeah, he's probably in the worst shape of any guy who ever fought in the UFC. Yeah.
Maybe Aki Bono fought Hoist Gracie.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, and in retrospect, it looked incredibly barbaric because you're like, that guy should never have been in that cage.
But people didn't know back then.
joe rogan
Well, he was a giant sumo champion.
jonathan gottschall
He was giant.
He was somewhat athletic.
He did some kind of athletic things in that match.
joe rogan
Moved.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, he moved.
Step left, step right.
Well, that was enough, yeah.
joe rogan
With 600 pounds.
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
jonathan gottschall
He's chasing him like a giant.
He's got his arms out.
It's like Frankenstein chasing him down.
But, you know, he literally threw Hackney through the cage.
You know, he threw him out of the cage and down the stairs.
You know, broke the gate.
joe rogan
Well, what Hackney did was hit him with an open palm, and I think...
jonathan gottschall
That was the first knockdown.
joe rogan
I think if he stuck with that, he probably wouldn't have broken his hand, which is kind of amazing, but for whatever reason, you can hit things really hard like that with the palm of your hand.
jonathan gottschall
Well, it's partly because you can't hit very hard that way.
It's the same thing.
justin wren
If you're not turning it over, Have you ever watched Bas Rutten fight in Pancrase?
jonathan gottschall
That's true.
joe rogan
Bas Rutten figured out how to do it.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, he was the first guy that really figured out...
The Palm Hill.
Yeah.
Pancrase was an organization, for folks who don't know, in Japan.
And they didn't allow gloves.
And they also didn't allow punches to the face.
You could kick a guy to the face, but you were wearing wrestling shoes.
And then on top of those wrestling shoes, you had this big fat shin and instep pad.
So there's this big padded-up shin thing, and then you had nothing on your hands, so the guys would kind of slap at each other and try to kick each other.
jonathan gottschall
That was the rule, too, right?
You couldn't throw closed hands, I believe.
joe rogan
You could not throw closed hands, but you could throw closed hands to the body.
But Bas Rutten, who's a Dutch kickboxer and had this fucking power explosion style, he was the first guy that figured out if you just pull your hand way back, you throw that bitch just like a punch.
jonathan gottschall
Just...
joe rogan
And he would uppercut guys and hook guys, and he would beat, like when he fought Funaki, he beat the fucking shit out of him.
And he beat him like a guy who was throwing punches.
I mean, he would come at you with his hands pulled back like that, and instead of doing what everybody else was doing, which is kind of throw these wild bitch slaps, Boss Root was throwing him straight down the pipe, and somehow or another, he had stretched his hand out, where he could pull his hand way back.
So he was just palming your fucking nose into your brain.
He was nasty.
He was the first guy to figure out, like, there's a different approach you could take to this.
He was also one of the first real strikers.
Like, you got to see the difference when he kicked guys, that fucking whack, you know, feel it in their arms.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
One of the beautiful things about watching the UFC since 1993 all the way up to 2015, where we are today, is the evolution of the understanding of the techniques, of what's effective in certain positions, the distances.
Those guys like Bas Rutten were critical for establishing that stuff.
You know those real pioneers fucking nobody before him and pancrease they were fighting like that.
There's nobody He came along with big power in his kicks and ridiculous punching power and figured out how to do it with the palm You know and then you see him fight in the UFC when he could use punches before his body started failing him like he's had Significant neck injuries and to the point where he has significant atrophy of one of his arms one of his arms he calls baby arm and It's like, yeah, he's had it fixed and had some stem cell stuff done and some operations and has discs fused in his neck and bad stuff.
jonathan gottschall
There's a cost to this, man.
joe rogan
Fuck yeah, there is.
But my point is, you watch him fight against Tioki Kosaka, TK, in the UFC when he won the heavyweight title.
And, you know, he was throwing fucking brutal combinations.
And his neck was so fucked up before that fight, he couldn't even wrestle.
He fought most of that fight or trained most of that fight just kickboxing because his neck was so fucked up.
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
Don't I remember him wearing red boots and pancreas?
joe rogan
Probably.
He wore a bunch of different boots.
jonathan gottschall
But you could kick with the boots on.
joe rogan
Oh yeah.
You had these wrestling shoes on with these shin and step guards over the top of the wrestling shoes.
jonathan gottschall
I thought he had like...
Like, big patent leather red boots on.
joe rogan
No.
jonathan gottschall
I must be misremembered.
joe rogan
They were wrestling shoes.
jonathan gottschall
They were?
joe rogan
Yeah, they were wrestling shoes.
Pancrates had, like, an outfit that they would make you wear.
You would wear, like, those little skivvies.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
You weren't wearing, like, those MMA shorts that guys wear today.
Everybody wore, like, those little...
jonathan gottschall
Speedos.
joe rogan
Yeah, those little grape smugglers.
And you'd...
It's an important time, historically, to watch those fights, to see the difference between the way they fought then and the way they fight now.
There's still room to grow, but the problem is you have athletic commissions, you have bureaucracy, and you also have Look, I love the UFC. I love working for the UFC. It's been an honor to work for them all these years, but you're gonna have a certain amount of stagnation when you have one group and one organization that's so dominant over the other ones.
I disagree that it's a monopoly because Viacom owns Bellator and Viacom has untold fucking billions of dollars.
They have an entire channel.
That they can promote it on.
Spike TV has an entire Friday night lineup that's dedicated to combat sports, to boxing, glory kickboxing.
There's plenty of eyes on Spike.
And they're also getting guys from the UFC now.
They have Phil Davis just signed with them.
Yeah, it's sort of the senior league for the UFC. And there's also, they picked up this wrestler, this guy who helped Chris Weidman prepare for one of his recent fights.
They're starting to get these big-time names, guys that are coming up.
And a lot of that is also because of the Reebok deal.
The UFC has a Reebok deal that doesn't allow them to get their own sponsors.
They have to use the Reebok sponsorship, so some guys are shying away from it because of that.
So, like, the concept of a monopoly, I just don't think it's fair.
I don't agree that it's a monopoly.
I think they're better than the rest of them.
There's better competition.
They're better organized.
I think their production is better.
The people that direct it and produce it are better.
They're just the best at what they do, because they've been doing it a long time.
In having that, like that, there's a certain amount of stagnation.
Because if someone came along and had a bare-knuckle UFC-style mixed martial arts event where they fought not in a cage, but in a basketball-sized mat, If you have an arena for basketball, you have this big, gigantic space that you have a wooden floor, this parquet floor on.
How about do something like that with mats and have mixed martial arts?
And when they go out of bounds, you bring them right back to the center again, and you have them duking it out again.
jonathan gottschall
I like that.
Because the fence is starting...
The fence is...
joe rogan
Interesting, but it hurts visually you can't see that good me I can't see that good.
I have the best fucking seat in the house for the UFC I'm touching the floor that they're fighting literally touching the floor.
I see you looking at the monitor all the time Yeah, sometimes I have to sometimes when when fighters like to the left or to the right and the backs like they're like up against the cage I have to look at the monitor.
unidentified
Otherwise, I don't know what's going on if you ever looked at the crowd We're all looking at the monitor, too.
joe rogan
A lot of times.
jonathan gottschall
I mean, it's amazing to me.
People pay for these good seats and everybody's looking up at the screen because it just shows better up there.
joe rogan
Less so with boxing.
If you watch boxing, people are looking at the ring most of the time.
jonathan gottschall
Is it because the ropes are on the way so much?
joe rogan
Exactly.
In that sense, Pride had the better idea when it came to that.
But it was too easy to go flying through the ropes.
They had a bunch of Japanese dudes outside that were ready to press, keep you from going out.
They had guys like when...
jonathan gottschall
Knocking your hand off the ropes.
joe rogan
It was that.
It was also like...
Thought was Paul Ophelia I think someone used the ropes want to catch a guy on an arm bar like you had the guy like they were trapped inside the ropes The guy's arm was trapped in the rope while I was getting arm barred and I was realizing like whoa He just used the rope to get that submission.
This is kind of fucked like the rope came into play It's almost like what tank Abbott submitted Steve Jenham He had his knee to his head and he grabbed the fence and he was holding on the fence and pulling and smashing him in the face.
Yeah You know that using the cage back then like you can't grab the cage Just like you can't grab the ropes and pride.
Yeah, but it did come into play Yeah, too.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, yeah, it comes into play still too much to be interesting I'd like that because there's so much of the action now is pushed up against the fence I think if a guy grabs a fence immediate one-point deduction immediate immediate one point and The problem is it's so reflexive.
It doesn't matter.
Most guys don't mean to do it.
joe rogan
But some guys do.
Some guys fucking grab that bitch.
They grab it.
They should know.
You should know.
jonathan gottschall
That's true.
joe rogan
I mean, you gotta know.
You gotta fucking know.
And there's a big difference between a guy grabbing the fence when you're trying to take him down and then being able to stand up and then kicks you in the head and a guy not grabbing the fence and you take him down and you dominate him for the rest of the round.
jonathan gottschall
And they seem like they're never penalized on it.
joe rogan
No.
jonathan gottschall
They'll get four warnings.
joe rogan
They should get an immediate one-point deduction.
Same thing for obvious eye pokes.
An immediate one-point deduction.
And Dana has said this.
Dana White has said this.
That might be the only way to stop eye pokes, to give them an immediate one-point deduction.
I think that might work.
I think there's got to be a way to cover the tips of the fingers.
I mean, I don't necessarily think that these Bruce Lee-style gloves that were invented in Enter the Dragon are the only way to do it.
jonathan gottschall
Well, we have them at our gym.
Some guys wear those, though.
Mm-hmm the Bruce Lee style gloves.
joe rogan
Yeah, those are cool But what I'm saying is something to cover the tips of the fingers because as a jiu-jitsu guy like if I had like Say like you know those Everlast bag gloves.
Yeah, you know those style that come over the tips like those aren't really gonna impede my grappling that much because I don't do this and I don't do this and You know, you never, what I'm saying, I'm showing something, obviously, to people who are listening, but interlacing your fingers.
You don't interlace your fingers.
You grab in, like, an S-grip, or you grab in a gable grip.
And these grips that you do, most of the really strong grips, don't ever involve your fingers sliding into the grooves of each other, of the opposing fingers.
But I feel like something like that maybe could work, where the tips of the fingers were covered up, and it wouldn't affect you as much if you eye-poke somebody.
We're kind of like going into a dark territory here Having this experience and I wanted to get back to your peers because we didn't I don't think we really completely We kind of got off track with that yeah having these people stand outside and watch you do this was there Did the reaction vary or was it pretty uniform?
Or was there extremes on both ends where people were like, what the fuck are you doing?
And other people were like, I want to be like you.
jonathan gottschall
I don't know if anybody was saying I want to be like you.
I doubt that.
But I don't know what was said behind my back.
You know, you hear what Gotchall's doing.
Jesus, you know, can you believe this?
What a monster.
But for the most part, people were cool about it, you know.
joe rogan
But they knew you.
jonathan gottschall
They knew me.
joe rogan
They knew me.
jonathan gottschall
And they knew, you know, and I made light of it.
You know, to me it was always, I always, you know, played it off in sort of a humorous way.
You know, basically me being fed to lions.
Right.
So, but again, the bigger problem is in the wider profession where people don't know me.
And that, you know, when those sort of people get a hold of the book, I hope they read it, you know, because the book is, it's not really even about mixed martial arts, you You know, it's about using mixed martial arts as this bridge into big questions about human behavior, especially human male behavior and the nature of masculinity and all the dumb stuff we get up to.
And it's one of the reasons, you know, I thought of you as I was writing the book, actually.
You know, a lot of people write a book and they don't have anybody in mind for it.
They have like a vague, nebulous sense of who the readers are going to be.
That never works for me.
I always have to think of an actual person.
You know, who's going to read this book?
Like, who would be the ideal reader for me?
And for me, it was you.
And I thought of you a lot when I was reading this book.
As a person, like, who would be interested in the subject matter, charitable and generous about it, because these are things that you wonder about, too, and also sort of meshes with not only your interest in fighting, but your whole interest in human behavior, and especially your basically evolutionary outlook.
On human life and human behavior.
That's what the book is really about.
It's sort of an evolutionary exploration of the basis of masculinity and manhood.
joe rogan
That's a that's a very interesting way of approaching it because I think that's one of the issues that people have when it comes to the idea of mixed martial arts or the idea of any sort of combat sport is that in Embracing that and supporting it or in even just pursuing it Somehow or another we're doing a disservice to the idea of a cultural evolution that we kind of all agree is going on if you compare Society and human beings and our behavior today with what
we know about several thousands of years ago We know that we're in a far safer time far more civil time For the most part in most places of the world obviously there's exceptions, but yeah overwhelming but the people that are communicating now we're communicating about We have an understanding about what we would call you know what they the the super progressives like to call toxic masculinity man Part of me understands where they're coming from.
And part of me also thinks that they're kind of copping out.
And they're denying certain aspects of their own life and their own masculinity that maybe they feel are weak.
And maybe they feel like they can't compete in these areas.
And they feel intimidated.
So they want to demean them.
And I don't think that's right either.
You know, like there's some...
jonathan gottschall
Well, masculinity is complex, you know, and it is, there are things about it.
joe rogan
So is femininity, right?
I mean, so is being a human.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, being a human is a complex sort of thing.
And there is something, you know, there is a case to be made that masculinity run amok.
Is the great problem of history.
joe rogan
Oh, no doubt.
unidentified
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
That men's tendencies towards aggression, towards kind of silly forms of competition, towards physical forms of violence.
You know, that's what's been the big problem all along.
And even though the world has gotten a lot safer, it still may finish us off in the end.
joe rogan
Well, that's the ultimate fear, right?
The ultimate fear is that one dick-waving contest will lead to nuclear war and then we'll all be fucking...
jonathan gottschall
It's so plausible.
joe rogan
...knocking rocks together to start fires.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, so plausible.
joe rogan
Especially if you look at some parts of the world, they're like, they're fucking way closer than we are to Russia.
You look at what North Korea has threatened to do to South Korea, or what Pakistan and India, when they look at each other, and you motherfucker, I've got a missile with your name on it.
All it takes is the wrong guy with the right amount of power, and that can happen.
And it's very likely that we're saying guy for a reason.
It's not going to be the wrong woman.
And yeah, there's a certain reality to that.
But there's also a certain reality to the fact that The reason why we have these thoughts and ideas and we have this quote-unquote toxic masculinity in the first place is because it served our genes well.
That's why we got to 2015. That's why we fought off the competition and unfortunately I think there's a yin and a yang to life.
There's a give and a take, and there's an action and a reaction when it comes to aggression and when it comes to fear and danger.
And that reaction is innovation, reinforcing the safer aspects of society, law enforcement.
There's all these different reactions to violence that lead to a better world.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, and that's really what the focus of my book is.
Again, I expected to write a book with MMA as a metaphor for this darkness, this blackness, this danger, this nastiness at the core of human nature.
That's what I expected.
I wrote a very different book than that.
The book ended up being a book about something that I call the monkey dance.
And if you've ever seen like a nature video of two elephant seals clashing in the surf or two mountain goats cracking skulls on a hillside, biologists call those sorts of contests, they call it ritual combat.
And ritual combat is a way that a huge diversity of animal species have developed to figure out who's bigger, who's tougher, who's stronger, who's fitter, without fighting it out to the bitter, bloody end.
joe rogan
Like chimps grab sticks and they pull them out of the ground.
They beat the shit out of trees with them more than they fight.
jonathan gottschall
Exactly.
Yeah.
So chimps have, and that's a monkey dance.
And so, and humans are animals too.
Most people seem to like to forget this, but we're animals too.
We're complex animals.
We're cultured animals.
We're animals still.
And the monkey dance is my name for human versions of ritual combat.
And it's a broad diversity of things that mainly men get up to.
Things like deadly duels and verbal duels, play fights among boys, and especially sports.
And so a lot of these behaviors The key thing is that a lot of these behaviors seem silly, they seem stupid, they seem pathetic.
They're often volatile, and they're in danger of escalating to something truly dangerous.
But on the whole, these monkey dances are a good thing.
They're a way that men can work out their problems, thrash out their status hierarchies, in ways that fall short of all-out sorts of violence.
So the chimps are a great example of this.
And humans do exactly the same thing.
If you're at a bar and you knock shoulders with somebody and somebody spills their beer, it's likely to go down like this.
There'll be some sort of insult, some sort of challenge.
Someone will feel disrespected, dishonored.
They'll bluster back and forth, just like those chimps in the jungle.
But at some point, one of the guys is like, I don't want to do this.
And you'll say sorry, or you'll walk away.
And if you don't, it continues to escalate.
The guys will close the distance.
joe rogan
They'll push, they'll punch, they'll tackle, they'll We're talking about a totally different sort of situation than competition.
When you're talking about bars, you're talking about social things.
Honestly, no one knows.
When you bump into a guy in a bar, you don't know who the fuck you're dealing with.
You don't know anything about it.
It's a matter of a lot of chest puffing and a lot of posturing.
jonathan gottschall
That's usually enough.
joe rogan
Yeah, sometimes.
But what my take on it is, is that there's a big difference between that and what guys are doing to establish greatness.
When you achieve greatness in martial arts, what you're essentially doing by becoming a champion is you're showing a genetic superiority, you're showing a mental superiority, a character superiority.
That makes you more preferred for breeding.
I mean, that's just the reality situation.
Like, I joke around about it, but it's kind of true.
The only reason why anybody gets laid is because Luke Rockhold didn't get there first.
jonathan gottschall
I thought that was the greatest line, and it's completely true.
joe rogan
It's true.
jonathan gottschall
It's so true.
My wife would have little Rockhold babies if she could.
joe rogan
But nobody wants to admit that, you know, because nobody wants to admit that, no, man, my wife is not into that, man.
jonathan gottschall
It's not just the way he looks.
joe rogan
It's that he is that guy.
We have an organic vegan garden together, and we're amazingly connected.
Your wife wants to fuck Goop Rockhold.
Just deal with it.
jonathan gottschall
No, I think that's right.
I mean, when it comes right down to it, you walk around the world and you see these differences between men and women, and you see physical differences, you see behavioral differences, and you naturally ask, you know, where does all this stuff come from?
Yeah.
joe rogan
Women aren't showing up at hospitals trying to fuck dudes right before they die.
They're not trying to pull their dicks out while they're coughing out blood.
There's something about you.
You're so vulnerable.
I need you inside me.
That's not what they do.
They're attracted by power and strength and character.
And not just strength as far as, like, the ability to oppress other people.
Like, we traditionally look at those things, or it's in vogue to look at those masculine characteristics as being negative.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, yeah.
joe rogan
You know, that you're oppressing others, or the toxic masculinity handle.
jonathan gottschall
She's choosing a good hunter.
joe rogan
A good provider but also someone who can deal when the shit goes down some dudes They you know when they'll they'll chirp all around about toxic masculinity or negative male behavior But the reality is they don't have any fucking character and if something happens really bad in their life They start weeping and they fall apart.
That's unattractive and the reason it's unattractive to your friends If you have a friend and every time something goes wrong in his life he starts crying he wants a hug you like Jesus bitch get your fucking shit together and Come on, dude.
And that's how you're supposed to feel.
Because you know that that guy, if anything goes wrong, that guy's not going to be reliable.
jonathan gottschall
He's not a good ally.
joe rogan
He's not a good ally.
He's not good to have in the tribe.
And these are unfortunate but realistic aspects of being a human being in the 21st century.
It's still there.
It's still there.
I mean, one day we might come to some point where we have so much control over the world that we live in that masculinity won't be unnecessary.
And if that's the case, we'll probably evolve to the point where we look like the aliens that are depicted, you know, in every movie with the giant head, no muscles, and the giant head that uses telekinesis to move things.
I mean, that's probably where we're headed.
jonathan gottschall
Well, I think, yeah, you're right.
I mean, the world has gotten softer and softer and safer and safer, and we're still...
Carrying this baggage, this evolutionary baggage of a sort of masculinity that's best suited to a world where, you know, there's barbarians at the gates and bears in the woods and all that stuff.
joe rogan
But in this same world, there are avenues to express this masculinity where you can be completely civil, where you can be completely kind, you can be a generous person, but...
Get over your own genetics in a way.
Give yourself difficult tasks to do.
And even what we were talking about earlier, fucking yoga can do that.
It doesn't have to be beating the shit out of each other in a cage to achieve this.
But the victory over your own self.
jonathan gottschall
That's what it is, yeah.
That's what I didn't know going in.
That's what I didn't know going in.
I figured those guys must like beating people up.
joe rogan
Some of them do, though.
jonathan gottschall
I think some do.
Tank Abbott comes to mind.
Yeah, and I think at the UFC level, maybe there's more of those guys.
But, you know, I'm doing this very small-time amateur fighters in western Pennsylvania and Ohio.
99% of them are amateurs.
99% of them have no hope of ever winning any fame or fortune.
There is no fame or fortune to be won.
So why are they doing it?
They're doing it because they want a challenge in their life.
They want a quest in their life.
And they want to do battle with their own weakness and their own timidity and try to defeat it.
They're not dreaming about hurting people.
joe rogan
That's the way to express it.
Do battle with their own weakness.
That's why we have disdain for people that pick on folks that they know that they can beat.
If you see a guy, and he's a bully, and he's like a 250-pound guy, and he wants to fight a 100-pound guy, why does he want to do that?
He wants to do that because he's scared of a challenge, because he's a coward.
A 250-pound man would never want...
I mean, the only time you would threaten a 100-pound man is if that 100-pound man was threatening a 100-pound woman or something, or another 100-pound man.
You're trying to step in and keep the peace.
But...
When you see a bully, it's one of the most disgusting characteristics because we know ultimately it's cowardice.
It appears as strength because they're flaunting their superiority, but it's really cowardice.
And that's a thing that fires.
jonathan gottschall
Otherwise they pick on somebody their own size.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I mean, here's a perfect example.
There was a fighter that fell out of a card because he got injured, and they offered this other fighter a replacement.
And he said, no, I don't want to fight that guy.
But then he listed off a bunch of guys that he would fight that were like way below him.
And his idea was like, hey, I have to change opponents in four weeks.
I don't want it to be difficult.
Everybody was like like the mixed martial arts the underground forum was fucking awash with people angry Yeah, and they're right.
They are right.
They are right You know either you're willing to fight another top contender who's just as capable of beating you as you are of him Or we're wasting fucking time here.
Yeah, you know, and we don't want to watch that you gotta understand like true What did you sign up to do?
You signed up to be a fucking gladiator, okay?
You signed up to be the most noble of all martial arts combatants of all time.
You're competing at the highest level we've ever achieved in martial arts.
Today, make no mistake about it, the fighters of today are the highest skilled, the most competent There's been some great judokas of the past.
There's been some great Taekwondo competitors and great Muay Thai fighters.
But as far as the overall combination in the form of a mixed martial artist, today, they're the best that they've ever been.
No doubt about it.
jonathan gottschall
By orders of magnitude.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean, I'm a student of this.
I mean, a lifelong student.
I've been deeply involved in martial arts since I was 14 years old.
So I've seen all the levels.
I've seen the difference.
There's a difference between someone who is doing it to achieve greatness and a difference to someone who's, like, barely getting by.
And they're really physically talented, and they train really hard, but they're fucking terrified of a real challenge.
And those guys exist.
And they exist even at a very high level.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
Because they come from really good camps, they're really well trained, they have a bunch of success under their belt, but they're always terrified of the one guy who's going to expose them.
It's one of the most fascinating aspects about fighting.
jonathan gottschall
It's also bad business to lose.
joe rogan
Yes.
jonathan gottschall
You know, so boxers are notorious for padding their records and fighting tomato cans.
joe rogan
There's also some guys that fold under pressure.
It's one of the most impressive things about Jon Jones.
Is that Jon Jones has overcome adversity in his career in a very, very obvious, character-defining way.
Like, a good example is the fight with Gustafson.
If you talk to the people that are in Jon's camp, they'll tell you, like, he barely trained for that fight.
Barely trained for it, but gutted it out in those last rounds and saved his title.
The Vitor Belford fight is another perfect example.
Vitor caught him in a fucking deep arm bar.
His arm was totally hyperextended.
99% of the population on this planet plus would tap.
jonathan gottschall
I'm tapping just thinking about it.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean it was fucked up.
His elbow was fucked up for a long time after that too.
Which is one of the reasons why he had to coach the ultimate fighter and wound up, you know, going through that.
Because he really couldn't compete.
It was jacked.
His elbow was fucking jacked.
But he wouldn't tap.
He wouldn't tap and he went on to win that fight and he went on to win it by submission.
You know, he submitted a black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Vitor Belfort.
I just think that that quality is something that is almost impossible to teach.
Like, you either have it or you don't.
Or maybe you can gain it.
If you didn't have it, maybe you can put up these boundaries in your mind where you won't quit anymore, you won't allow you to anymore.
jonathan gottschall
Native element to it, you know, some people are born tough and born with that kind of character.
unidentified
I don't know if it's born.
joe rogan
I think it's developed over the course of the adversity that you face in your life.
jonathan gottschall
I think that's right.
I think that's right.
But, you know, and that was one of the big findings for me at the gym is like, You know, you go into the gym and it's like, what's a fighter?
And for most people, I think most people think a fighter is like, I don't know, a person who's strong and fit and has developed this toolkit of, you know, all these sophisticated techniques and all that stuff.
But you talk to fighters, they don't define a fighter that way.
They define a fighter as, you know, a person who's really tough and who will fight.
Who's game in a fight?
And that was one thing that I found sort of interesting going in.
Because one of the things I wondered about was whether I'd be able to do it.
Just go in there and square off with people.
I didn't think I was ever going to be good at it.
But could I compete bravely?
And I do think that you do build your character by doing it.
You do get stronger and tougher and braver through the process of training.
joe rogan
No, I think so too.
I think there's no doubt about that.
I think there's also, it's curious to me that there's a bunch of people that are fight fans, and even fighters, that don't respect people that don't put themselves at risk.
Like a Floyd Mayweather is a perfect example.
jonathan gottschall
I don't get that at all.
joe rogan
I don't get it at all either.
I look at Floyd Mayweather and I see a genius.
I see a guy who's obviously troubled in his personal life and his treatment of women is atrocious and all the above.
I mean, he's got all these arrests for domestic violence.
I mean, where there's smoke, there's fire, right?
Spent time in jail for that.
Or he's hanging out with chicks that Everyone and anyone would smack.
That's a possibility, too, that nobody wants to take into consideration.
I mean, you're hanging around with that dude.
I mean, why are you hanging around with that dude?
I mean, you know, are you attracted to him?
jonathan gottschall
Oh, he's rich.
joe rogan
Yeah, is that what it is?
Who knows?
Who knows what the variables are, but it's undeniable.
Okay, I don't know him.
I don't want to judge his character.
What's undeniable about what you can view is inside the ring, he's a fucking genius.
Yeah.
He's brilliant.
The way he gets guys to dance to his tune.
He slows punchers down.
He slows volume punchers down dramatically.
He gets them to second guess what they're doing.
He gets them off their game.
He lights them up.
He tags them.
He clinches them.
He just fights brilliantly.
jonathan gottschall
The whole point of fighting is to do damage without getting damaged.
joe rogan
He doesn't do that much damage.
That's why people get crazy.
He does a little bit of damage, but more than anybody else.
jonathan gottschall
He scores.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But in doing so, he's beat the fucking game.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, he's 48-0, and he's never been knocked down.
He's never been stopped.
He's never been really hurt.
Has he been knocked down?
Maybe he's been knocked down.
He might have been knocked down early in his career.
jonathan gottschall
Well, I think people were reacting there not to lack of, you know, carnage.
I think they were reacting to a lack of drama.
You know, people are attracted to fighting sports, I think, for a lot of reasons.
You know, there's probably a creature in us that kind of likes violence.
But there's also this sort of...
Drama to a fight that's hard.
I mean, with that fight you have these two guys.
You have the good guy, you have the face, you have the heel squaring off in this incredibly climactic showdown that's going to define the story of their entire careers.
And you're expecting some sort of epic battle to go down that's going to be incredibly gripping drama.
And then as a sort of dramatic spectacle, I think it sort of fell flat.
Which is why that's my sort of theory for why the the reaction to the fight was so negative Yeah, I guess man.
joe rogan
I mean just when you're dealing with two of the best boxers of any generation who I think Manny Pacquiao, I think it's safe to say that 95% of them don't know anything about boxing That is a problem, boxing fans.
That's what Roger Mayweather always says famously.
It's a quote, most people don't know shit about boxing.
You ever seen anyone say that?
No, but it's true.
It's a meme.
Anytime there's anything on the underground, every time people talk about boxing.
jonathan gottschall
But you're able to appreciate as an aficionado and somebody who's really sophisticated in your knowledge of the sport, whereas most people are just wanting to see an intense drama.
joe rogan
Well, I watched it with my wife, who has never been in a fight in her life and doesn't know jack shit about fighting, which is kind of funny, you know, because, you know, if you look at our DVR, it's like two competing philosophies.
jonathan gottschall
Reality shows versus...
joe rogan
No, she doesn't watch reality shows, but she's, you know, she's very much into different shit than I'm into.
No, I don't...
I don't mind that.
And she doesn't mind.
But it's like when our interests cross and she watches what I watch, it becomes hilarious because she doesn't know anything about fighting.
She actually said this to me.
I've said this a bunch of times in the podcast.
I promise the last time I say it to anybody who's listening.
She actually says, you should have to get knocked down in order to win.
And I go, what are you talking about?
She goes, well, that will make them fight more.
I'm like, he's fighting!
Do you know...
Goddamn, woman!
You don't understand what's happening here.
This guy is, he's doing what he wants to do.
If he stood in front of Manny Pacquiao and they just went rock'em sock'em robots, fucking anything can happen.
But the way he's doing it, he's controlling all the variables.
He's controlling it, but he's controlling it with his skill and his dedication, his practice and his knowledge, and he's information chunking.
That's something that I really, truly appreciate about high-level jujitsu artists, about high-level martial artists in any venue.
I love watching people problem-solve in real time much better than anybody else is doing.
And that's what he does.
Like, he knows, like, he knows how you're gonna react to things.
POP! He'll pop you with that jab, and he knows that you're going to look to step to your left, and he's already out of there.
He's already gone.
When Manny Pacquiao would step in and throw that right hook, and Floyd would dip to his left and duck and slide right off the ropes, it was genius.
Artistic.
He planned it perfectly.
He knew that Pacquiao was a certain type of blitz style, and Floyd just wasn't there for it.
jonathan gottschall
Do you still enjoy watching boxing, or do you find it kind of boring after watching MMA? Um, it's not as fun, but I still love it.
joe rogan
Like, I really love watching Canelo Alvarez fight because his fights are fucking chaos.
Gennady Golovkin who fought this weekend.
He's the best.
Golovkin's the best to watch because you know someone's getting knocked the fuck out.
Like, that guy just is a destroyer.
He just seeks and destroys, seeks and destroys, and just slowly chips away at the best of them to the point where they just can't take it anymore, and their body starts giving out.
He's amazing.
You know he's had 350-something fights when you count his amateur career?
He's amazing.
jonathan gottschall
That's amazing.
joe rogan
Yeah, never been knocked down, never been dropped, never been hurt, and he's knocked out everyone.
I mean, and you look at him, he looks like he's in a boy band.
He's a little sweetie.
Look at his face, he's got a big smile.
Even the way he talks, I bring big drama fight.
jonathan gottschall
It's amazing.
It's always amazing to me in any sport where one person is so much better than everyone else.
Like Roger Federer in tennis.
joe rogan
It's not necessarily that he is so much better than everyone else.
He's so much better than everyone he's fought.
He has to fight a Mayweather.
Mayweather's a little smaller than him.
His father, the way Floyd Sr. said it, he ain't fighting no damn giant.
He's not a giant.
He's fucking my size.
8 or something, or 5'9".
He's not a big guy.
He's just amazing.
But he's 160. He fights at 160 and Mayweather is a 147. So I kind of get it.
But Canelo Alvarez, I think, is big enough to fight him.
I think that would be a fucking fantastic fight.
God!
Alvarez and Gennady Golovkin would be fucking amazing.
Because Alvarez, I mean, he could knock out anybody.
Anybody.
And so can Golovkin.
I think Golovkin's a bit more skilled than him.
A bit more refined and more technical.
But goddamn, Alvarez is a fucking monster.
He's a monster.
That would be exciting.
You know, Sergei Kovalev is another really exciting guy.
These Russian dudes are not regular white people.
jonathan gottschall
I heard you say that.
joe rogan
They just are not.
jonathan gottschall
It's so true.
joe rogan
We need to get that in our head, folks.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
Eastern Europeans, you know, they're just coming from hardscrabble backgrounds.
joe rogan
And how about a fucking thousand years of hardscrabble genetics?
jonathan gottschall
That's right.
That's right.
joe rogan
Yeah, and not these pussy Americans we're dealing with.
jonathan gottschall
Bellator has a bunch of tough Russians.
joe rogan
Fuck yeah, they do.
jonathan gottschall
Who's that little guy?
The Fedor?
Not Fedor.
What do they call him?
The Lord of Frodo.
You ever seen him fight?
unidentified
Oh, yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
What the fuck is his name?
jonathan gottschall
He's a little savage.
joe rogan
Well, there's a bunch of really high-level Russian guys that are in the UFC now, too, like Habib Nurmagomedov.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
There's another AKA guy.
jonathan gottschall
Sad, man.
joe rogan
But, you know, I watched a video of him wrestling Luke Rockhold, and I'm like, how come a fucking guy who fights at 155 is wrestling the biggest 185 pounder the world has ever known?
What is going on there?
Does he wrestle Kane, too?
Because I know that Rockhold I mean, where do you guys end this?
Does he spar with DC? I mean, he's 155. What the fuck is going on?
So he blew out his knee again.
And, you know, he's supposed to be fighting cowboy in my fight of the year.
I fucking love that fight.
Woo!
That's a stylistic fight.
I mean, you got the best grappler, I think, in the division in Habib versus one of the very best strikers in all of the UFC. I mean, Donald is such a good Muay Thai striker.
He's so good.
He's so good.
I mean, when you see him fight a guy that is not at his level, that's when you really understand how good he is.
When you see him fight like a Jim Miller and see what he could do to those guys, that's when you kind of get in your head.
You're like, well, this guy's on a very high level right now.
jonathan gottschall
He's something, yeah.
joe rogan
He's also super confident, super prepared.
He's been fighting so often, and he's just in the groove right now.
This is his time.
jonathan gottschall
Some guys are kind of bulletproof.
I mean, he fights so much, and he fights so hard.
joe rogan
It's tough as shit, man.
jonathan gottschall
He just holds up.
joe rogan
You know, he's just tough as shit.
That's just, like, who he is.
He's the real deal.
I mean, that guy, in his spare time, he rides bulls.
Gets on fucking bulls and rides them.
He jumps.
jonathan gottschall
That's the most dangerous sport in the world, by the way.
joe rogan
That's not his bull.
That's just people being assholes.
You can't call that a sport.
This is ridiculous.
jonathan gottschall
There's a great article in the New Yorker about bull riding.
It's amazing.
joe rogan
It'd be a sport if the bulls signed up for it.
If the bulls were like, yeah, man, I want to see if I can fucking shake a dude.
jonathan gottschall
They breed these bulls though.
They breed them to shake.
They breed them to be violent.
They breed them to be dangerous.
joe rogan
Of course they do.
jonathan gottschall
And it's the highest rate of head injuries, neck injuries.
joe rogan
We had a guy on Fear Factor that had his elbow or shoulder rather just destroyed.
He was a professional bull rider.
And he showed me his scars.
I get to go off his shirt and his whole like is is he had like lines Everywhere connecting his shoulder to his his jigsaw puzzle.
So I said like how many times you had surgery and he had some fucking ungodly number of shoulders so I don't remember like nine or ten And he goes anything goes wrong.
It just pops out Like if he falls wrong, it just pops out and then he needs someone to like yank on it Yeah, I guess you gotta extend it in a pop back in place like yeah, our friend who has that Yeah, and all for what?
So you can get that eight seconds on a monster?
jonathan gottschall
It's the same thing with MMA. You know, it seems crazy to people from the outside, but there's a certain challenge to it.
There's a quest to it.
joe rogan
I would hop in a ring.
I would agree to three fights in a night before I would agree to ride a bull.
No doubt about it.
You're good at fighting.
jonathan gottschall
You're not very good at riding bulls.
joe rogan
Well, I don't think anybody's good at it.
If the best guy could do eight seconds, everybody sucks at riding bulls.
If there was a dude out there that was like the Michael Jordan of bull riding, they could just ride bulls for like a half an hour.
They're just kicking them and shit.
And he's like, what?
You know, he's like blowing kisses to his mom in the crowd.
Then I would say there's a guy that's good at bull riding.
But everybody sucks.
It's just some guys suck less.
I'm pretty good at it.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I was at this fair one time, and they had one of those mechanical bulls, and everybody's riding, you know, doing it right the one-handed way.
I'm gonna beat this thing, and I just clench it.
I get on, two hands, hold on to it, bury my face into it, and just hold on.
joe rogan
How was that?
unidentified
I rode for like two minutes, drove the crowd wild.
jonathan gottschall
Half the people booed me for cheating, and the other half were like, that guy's a genius.
joe rogan
So you grab it like a rear naked choke?
jonathan gottschall
You grab it, yeah, like you're pulling guard as hard as you possibly can.
unidentified
How could you do that?
joe rogan
But wait a minute.
Okay, let me think.
jonathan gottschall
You see a mechanical bull.
joe rogan
Right, but where are you grabbing it?
jonathan gottschall
You can just kind of grab around.
joe rogan
Can you pull a picture of a mechanical bull up, please?
jonathan gottschall
A pommel horse in gymnastics.
You know the pommel horse in gymnastics?
It's kind of like that.
unidentified
Right.
jonathan gottschall
You can just kind of get under it with both of your hands.
You put your face into it.
joe rogan
I'm very curious now, because I rode one of those things for some stupid MTV thing, and I was shocked at how easy it was for them to fly me off of that fucker.
I don't know if it lasted five seconds.
jonathan gottschall
I rode for like two minutes.
joe rogan
That's insane.
Okay, let me look at that.
Oh, there's a bunch of different kinds, huh?
Some of them actually look like bulls.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, yeah, I rode real cow.
I rode the cow kind.
joe rogan
The one that looks like a cow?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Did it have horns, or no?
jonathan gottschall
I don't think he had horns.
Maybe he had rubber horns, but I could get right around his head.
joe rogan
I just want to die because it had real horns.
That would suck.
jonathan gottschall
That was the one right there.
You see that one with the fair where they have the bubble around it?
joe rogan
That right there?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, that one there.
joe rogan
Okay, click on that.
jonathan gottschall
That's the one I rode.
You can just get them around the neck.
You kind of choke them out and you clench real hard.
His head was bigger, so I don't know if you could get around his head.
joe rogan
Yeah, that guy's riding it like a moron.
Well, that's like why they call the rear naked choke the lion killer.
They say there's only one way to kill a lion.
You've got to choke it.
jonathan gottschall
You've got to choke it out.
joe rogan
You've got to get its back.
jonathan gottschall
Hard to get its back, I think.
joe rogan
Good luck getting your fucking arms around a lion's neck.
It's hard to get your arms around a big guy's neck.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, I know, yeah.
joe rogan
Get your arms around.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, there's guys that I can't choke.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean, you could, but it's not easy.
But a lion is strong as fuck.
They weigh 500 pounds.
And a bull?
Okay, so you reach under, and what are you grabbing with your arms?
jonathan gottschall
Well, again, his neck is too big, but his neck was a little smaller.
You just get your arms around his neck.
joe rogan
Did you S-grip it?
jonathan gottschall
I think I did.
I did something like that, probably.
joe rogan
So it was a small mechanical bull.
You might have brought a bitch-ass bull.
jonathan gottschall
No, no, he was killing everybody.
joe rogan
You were riding a mechanical cow, son.
unidentified
Don't say that.
joe rogan
Like a calf, maybe a veal.
jonathan gottschall
This was one of my best moments.
I don't have many moments of victory.
joe rogan
So people booed you?
jonathan gottschall
Half of them booed me for cheating, you know, because it was obviously, like, counter to the spirit of the activity.
joe rogan
Dummies!
He broke the code, he figured it out.
jonathan gottschall
Good for you, dude.
It was a little tough, though.
I mean, my face was all, like, burned.
justin wren
Did you get anything out of it, or just pride?
unidentified
I got pride.
jonathan gottschall
I got a lot of pride out of it.
I'm telling you about it on the air.
This is my big moment.
joe rogan
Yeah, the idea of riding a giant animal.
First of all, I don't like the idea of raising those things to do that.
I don't even like zoos, man.
I go to zoos and it drives me nuts.
jonathan gottschall
Well, it's not bullfighting.
I don't know if it's such a bad...
joe rogan
Bullfighting is more fucked up.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, bullfighting is way more fucked up because I don't think there's anything bad that really happens to the bull.
He doesn't like those people on his back and he bucks them off ferociously and they're only on there for eight seconds.
And some of these bulls are smart and they figure out how to hurt people.
Like they know if they buck in just a certain way while throwing their head back at the same time, you know, they can really do damage to people and get these people off their back.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, some of them are basically killers and they have to be retired because they get too good at it.
It's an article in the New Yorker, man.
I'm not telling you.
unidentified
Google it.
jonathan gottschall
New Yorker and bullfighting.
It's an amazing article.
joe rogan
Bullfighting.
Bullfighting, I'm hugely opposed to.
That drives me crazy.
First of all, there's a bunch of people sticking that thing with poison arrows or poison darts or spears.
unidentified
I don't know if it's poisoned.
jonathan gottschall
Don't they have poison in them?
Really?
It's barbaric, but one of the great books about combat sport is Hemingway's Death in the Afternoon.
If you haven't read that, I'd really recommend it because almost everything he says about bullfighting is relevant to other forms of combat sport.
It's really a great book.
joe rogan
I just thought they had some sort of poison.
They're using those spears and they jab it into them.
jonathan gottschall
I don't believe so.
The spears are basically what they do.
They drain energy from the animal and they also force it to put its head down.
And that's important because the killing stroke needs to be delivered over the horns.
And so what they want is a very clean, balletic type of kill, which means that they have to get the animal's head arranged in a downward position so they can get the sword to go home.
joe rogan
So where are they trying to drive it into?
Like a spinal column?
jonathan gottschall
No, I think they're going for the heart.
joe rogan
Oh, they go through the back.
jonathan gottschall
They go in with a two-foot, three-foot sword all the way to the hill.
They go right to the hill.
It goes in like butter.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ.
Do they eat the bull after they do that?
Because bulls are not that delicious, right?
jonathan gottschall
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
I imagine they do.
These are peasant societies that, you know, develop this custom, and I'm sure they ate the bull.
joe rogan
Well, most people aren't aware that if you buy steak in a market, you're getting an animal that's been neutered.
Yeah, you get it.
What's called a steer and they take a bull and they cut his balls off when he's young and they let him grow to size and then they kill him.
So he has a more tender meat, right?
If you eat like I shot a moose in This guy right here in British Columbia.
jonathan gottschall
That's him.
joe rogan
Yeah this might you boil his face Yeah, well I had a guy do it.
I didn't do it myself.
unidentified
I'm busy, dude.
joe rogan
I got shit to do But yeah, it's called a European mount.
jonathan gottschall
It's amazing the structure of the inside of his nose.
joe rogan
Mm-hmm.
Oh, yeah.
jonathan gottschall
That's his nostrils there?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Their nostrils are incredible.
jonathan gottschall
That's amazing.
joe rogan
And that's a deer.
It's a little different.
They're both deer.
That's the largest deer in North America.
jonathan gottschall
So how much was your moose?
That's a moose?
Because that doesn't look like a moose.
joe rogan
It's a small moose.
That's why.
He was only a couple years old, so he was only 900 pounds.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
But a big moose.
jonathan gottschall
900 pounds is huge.
joe rogan
It is, but not for a moose.
jonathan gottschall
How big did they get?
joe rogan
My friend shot one that was 1,400 pounds.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
But my point being that the muscle, like the tissue, is really dense.
Like there's some areas like the back, like the tenderloins and the back straps that are more of a tender meat to eat.
unidentified
Right, right.
joe rogan
But the tissue of a moose is like...
jonathan gottschall
True, right.
joe rogan
Muscle!
It's just, it's a fucking unbelievably powerful animal that, I mean, if he got older, he would have these huge fucking saloon doors growing out of his head, and then he would use those to slam into other dudes who also have those things.
And they're just so strong.
So the meat is like really tough.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, they haven't been bred for eons to be hamburgers.
joe rogan
Exactly.
And my friend shot a water buffalo in Australia, and he said they cooked the back strap, which is like the most tender part, and he said he had a piece of meat in his mouth that he chewed for half an hour.
He's not joking.
unidentified
Really?
Wow.
joe rogan
Yeah, he said he was practicing with his bow and arrow, and he was practicing for a half an hour with one piece of meat in his mouth that he was trying to break down.
I mean, we're such pussies.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, we are.
joe rogan
We're so soft and mushy.
Like, you know, we're talking about, like, cage fighting.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, I know.
unidentified
Amazing.
joe rogan
We get in there.
You're fighting against a person.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, I know.
I felt embarrassed about it a lot of times about how scared I was when I would think about, like, how much harder, you know, other people have it.
You know, I was reading other memoirs of people, like, who did dangerous things, especially, like, war reporters.
unidentified
Oof.
jonathan gottschall
Like, Sebastian Younger went over and wrote books about the Afghanistan War.
He went into this little platoon way off in the middle of nowhere.
I mean, they're really in the shit.
He got blown up in a Humvee, you know, all kinds of, you know, badass stuff.
And he didn't complain, he didn't bitch and moan about it.
unidentified
He went back!
jonathan gottschall
He went back, I know.
joe rogan
That guy's nuts.
jonathan gottschall
The bravery of those guys is astonishing.
And so you compare the cage fighters, these guys seem really brave, and they are, but that's a whole other level.
joe rogan
Well, and Sebastian Junger is not even shooting back.
jonathan gottschall
No.
joe rogan
He's writing.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
And he's got his head up.
Because he's got his camera.
Because he's videotaping all this stuff.
He did two documentaries.
And, you know, bullets are flying and he's got his head up.
joe rogan
What kind of fucking PTSD does that guy have?
jonathan gottschall
Well, his friend died, you know, like a week after, not a week after, but soon afterwards, his friend, the other cameraman, a guy named Tim Hetherington, was killed, I believe, in Libya.
And so, yeah, I think he's got some pretty severe emotional, psychological damage from it.
He said he was not going back.
He said he's not going back to war zones anymore.
joe rogan
Yeah, I would say that's a good decision.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
He knows when to quit.
joe rogan
But if it wasn't for guys like that or the people that filmed like Restrepo or...
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, that's who it is.
That's who it is.
That was Hetherington and Sebastian Younger.
joe rogan
And there's a new documentary that...
jonathan gottschall
Younger's a fighter, you know, by the way.
joe rogan
Was he?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
Sebastian Younger, read my book, please.
joe rogan
He looks like it.
His nose is kind of jacked.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, he boxes.
joe rogan
Still?
jonathan gottschall
I believe so, yeah.
I believe so.
He's a tough guy.
joe rogan
That's one of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about.
When I had heard this concept, the professor in the cage, the protecting of essential cognitive function, which is necessary to pursue your career.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, did you find there was any negative repercussions physically?
jonathan gottschall
Did you feel anything?
The first time I got punched really hard in the face.
It's really educational, you know, because watching from outside the cage, you kind of know, like, you know, this isn't good for these people.
You kind of know it's a brain damage contest, but it's different to actually feel it.
And the first time I got knocked around pretty good, and afterwards kind of felt concussed, even during the attack, even when I was taking these shots, I was able to think to myself, you know, I make my living trying to think smart thoughts, and I better quit while I still know my alphabet.
But I didn't.
joe rogan
But what was the negative aspects of it?
jonathan gottschall
I don't know.
I mean, I don't think...
I had a lot of headaches, and occasionally I would be cloudy, you know, for a day or two afterwards.
You know, there's a sort of...
joe rogan
After sparring?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I'd be like a little...
I felt like it was, you know, I described it as sort of like a translucent blanket.
Thrown over my head and slowed my thinking and clouded my perception.
joe rogan
Did you ever get that same sort of feeling just from hard training where you're exhausted?
jonathan gottschall
No, this was definitely a time where a couple times I got, you know, again, one of these situations you're in sparring and guys hit you too hard.
And there was a couple guys who were notorious for it and I got really jacked up by a few guys.
One time where, you know, this guy just landed this brutal left hook against me.
And he didn't really mean to.
Like, he apologized afterwards.
I was moving in.
You know, he tagged me hard.
And, you know, I was almost knocked out.
You know, saw stars, the whole world, my perception of the world sort of starts flipping over.
The lights are kind of going on and off.
But I didn't, you know, with brain damage, it's usually a, you know, a time bomb that goes off sometime in the future, so you don't know.
joe rogan
There is and there isn't.
There's also, there's an accumulative damage issue, but there's also, I've met guys where I knew them, and then they had one really hard fight, and then they were different.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, so I didn't have anything like that, at least not to my knowledge.
I mean, I'd have short term repercussions of it.
joe rogan
How often were you sparring?
jonathan gottschall
Our gym was not all that enlightened of a place, you know, and the culture of it was pretty intense.
So, I don't know, probably twice a week pretty hard sparring, you know.
joe rogan
I'm always fascinated by people who know the repercussions and still dive into it and still just say, you know what, it's worth the risk.
jonathan gottschall
That's what everybody's doing.
Nowadays everybody knows the risks.
I mean, MMA fighters, you know, these are smart guys.
These are middle class guys.
Most of them are college educated.
joe rogan
But a guy like you is different because you're not really, I mean, you are an MMA fighter in that you did fight, but that's not like what your pursuit.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, it is my pursuit though.
My pursuit is writing books.
joe rogan
Right.
jonathan gottschall
And I saw a good book in it.
So I did it for professional reasons too.
I mean, there was a personal reason.
I'd never been in a fight before.
I was kind of curious about whether I was a coward or not.
And I wanted to do this brave thing.
For me, it was a brave thing.
But there was also a professional thing, just like the fighters have.
The fighters are doing it because they need to make a living.
I was doing it because I wasn't making much of a living, and I needed to try to do something...
Mix it up.
Yeah, that would...
Shock shock a little bit shock me out of my old ruts And write a book that had a larger audience than the books I'd written before which is sort of books for English lit nerds now What was the actual experience of the fight like?
joe rogan
Talk us through the day of it.
What did you feel like when you woke up in the morning?
jonathan gottschall
You knew holy shit today's the day I was you know There was a level of anxiety That was always there and I was glad, however, that I didn't feel the terror that I felt that I might fear.
I was afraid that I'd be so scared that I'd chicken out or just behave in a cowardly fashion.
And there was a lot of anxiety, but it wasn't as bad as I expected.
And when I got in the cage, one thing that was really interesting to me, because I didn't know this would happen, is all the fear pretty much evaporated.
Fear is really, really useful.
You know, it's your body's way of saying to you, dude, this is really dumb.
This is really dumb.
Let's reconsider.
Let's see if there's a different way to do this thing.
So it's useful going in, but once you're in the cage and you've been locked inside, fear is no longer very useful.
Cowering is not going to save you.
You know, you're locked in.
There's no getting out of this thing.
And my fear just kind of went away.
And it was replaced by something that was really cool in retrospect.
It was this sense of focus that I'd never felt before.
Never felt before.
Nothing close to it.
Like I was in this arena, a minor league hockey arena.
There's people there hooting and howling.
I saw nothing.
I heard nothing.
All I could see was the guy in front of me.
All I could hear was him.
You know, I had this incredible tunnel vision.
So at some point my coach was screaming at me, you know, screaming out instructions, screaming out warnings.
And he's a loud guy.
He's one of his classic corner men whose voice just fills the whole arena.
I never heard it.
I never heard it.
There was just nothing in the world except for that guy.
So yeah, that was...
joe rogan
How'd the fight go?
jonathan gottschall
You know, I don't want to give too much away about it, but...
unidentified
Why is that?
joe rogan
Is it in the book?
jonathan gottschall
It's in the book, and I sort of built some suspense to it.
joe rogan
So you don't want to tell us what happened?
jonathan gottschall
I'll tell you a little bit about what happened.
The fight was 47 seconds long.
joe rogan
Did you win?
jonathan gottschall
I won the first 46 seconds.
And then the fight took a nasty turn in the last second.
joe rogan
One second?
jonathan gottschall
Pretty much, yeah.
It was pretty abrupt.
For 46 seconds, I was sort of imposing my will, and things were going my way, and I was starting to feel good.
And then, you know, things went bad.
Yeah, things went really bad, and it was over.
It was that fast.
It was amazing.
joe rogan
Did you want to do it again after it was over?
jonathan gottschall
Desperately.
joe rogan
Really?
jonathan gottschall
Desperately.
And it wasn't even sweaty yet.
I wasn't even sweaty yet.
And I was like, okay, now I know how to do this.
joe rogan
Did you get hit or did you get choked?
jonathan gottschall
I got armbarred.
joe rogan
Oh.
That's not a bad way to lose.
jonathan gottschall
No, it wasn't.
But it wasn't...
Part of it, you know, I'm approaching it as a writer, and I wanted like a story that was more epic.
You know, more of a...
I don't know, just more of a heroic struggle.
Something that would make a better story.
And part of it was, you know, I really screwed up.
I really screwed up in the fight.
And afterwards, I was like, okay, now I have this under my belt.
I was almost positive that I wouldn't have made that mistake again.
I would know how to do it.
I kind of made a really bad rookie mistake.
joe rogan
What was the mistake?
jonathan gottschall
Well...
Basically, my strategy going in was I was always a better grappler than I was a striker.
It wasn't that I was a great grappler, but I was better at it than striking.
And so we didn't know anything about the other guy.
We knew nothing.
He had no Google presence.
We didn't know if he was a striker, a grappler.
We didn't know if he was left-handed or right-handed.
These are all really bad things not to know.
And so the game plan was just we'd take him down and try to make him fight me off his back because that's what I did best.
So, you know, right off the bat, you know, within a few seconds I shot, got the takedown, got him down against the fence, was about this close to securing the mount.
You know, he kind of had me in a headlock.
I got out of it.
I swept my foot up and Was almost in the mountain then you know that then was the first clue that I was out of my league and right away He just did this really kind of fancy Sophisticated thing where he drew me effortlessly into the guard and started working on that armbar and I I didn't and I knew something was bad something bad was happening So I got up and I yanked and yanked and yanked and yanked and got out and ran for it Okay,
he rolls to his feet and chases me and And at that point, that was when an experienced fighter would have said, okay, it's not a good idea to roll around with this guy on the ground.
We need to change the plan.
And that's what my coach is screaming at me.
You know, he's just screaming at me, you know, you don't want to go to the ground with this guy.
And immediately, you know, I couldn't break out of the game plan.
It never even occurred to me.
So I waited.
I sort of set that ambush where you're waiting for the guy to throw a punch, throw a kick, and you shoot.
And that happened.
You know, he kicked me in the ribs.
And at the same second, I shot.
And it was this great moment in my life.
It was almost better than the bull riding moment.
It was this great picture.
I got him, you know, a perfect double leg takedown.
You know, he's airborne, and we come down hard, smack.
And at this point, again, I feel like I'm in control of this fight.
unidentified
I'm winning.
jonathan gottschall
Everything's going great.
And the next thing I know, I mean, one second, two seconds later, he'd somehow swept me.
It was a fancy arm bar.
I was a white belt at best.
And it was a fancy arm bar where he managed to sort of flip me over like a pancake.
And the next thing I know, I'm looking up at the ceiling instead of looking down at him.
And it was tight.
joe rogan
Did you watch it?
jonathan gottschall
I watched it, yeah.
But it took me a while to even figure out what he had done.
joe rogan
Is it available online?
jonathan gottschall
No, I don't think so.
I have the video.
I could show you.
joe rogan
I'd like to see the transition.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
What he did.
jonathan gottschall
I could show you.
Like, we could get on the ground here and I could show you.
unidentified
Okay.
jonathan gottschall
To you, I'm sure it would be really, really basic.
Super basic.
But, you know, for me, I'm only a year into this at this point.
My jiu-jitsu was pretty rudimentary.
joe rogan
One of the things, and this is going to seem weird, that I've been noticing about yoga, is getting into yoga again recently, is the various complexities of each position.
It's not as simple as like, put your leg here, stand up.
It's like, back has to be straight.
Expand your chest, lengthen your back, push down with your heels, you know, push your hips forward.
There's all these different variables that you have to take into consideration in every single posture.
Well, the same exists in jujitsu, just on a much more complex level.
There's so much, because you're attacking someone.
And then they're defending.
And then you're anticipating the defense and setting up a second attack off of that defense.
Oftentimes the first attack is just to gauge how they respond.
And then you're chaining all the...
Like Helsing Gracie, Steve Maxwell, famous strength and conditioning coach, jujitsu black belt, been on this podcast a few times, described how Helsing Gracie describes jujitsu.
And he goes, because he's got kind of a pretty deep accent, he goes, you do this, then I do that, then I do this, then you do that, forever.
unidentified
Yeah, that's good.
joe rogan
This is a great way to describe it.
And the more you understand about each position, the more you understand about where could things go wrong, where can things go right, what are you trying to achieve?
And when you don't know that, like the way you're describing it, like what's happening?
jonathan gottschall
I had no idea.
There was no this or that.
He did this and it was over.
And so what happened was like why I wanted to fight again like right then afterwards was because I knew that you know I'd chosen exactly the wrong game plan to fight this guy and afterwards we became Facebook friends and I see all of his pictures on his Facebook page are of him with gold medals on his chest from winning jiu-jitsu competition tournaments.
joe rogan
Yeah, so he's a jiu-jitsu wizard.
jonathan gottschall
So I was completely out of my league.
joe rogan
Is he a black belt?
jonathan gottschall
I don't believe so.
Close.
But yeah, he was up there.
joe rogan
Have you considered just really training hard at jiu-jitsu?
jonathan gottschall
That's what I'd like to do, yeah.
joe rogan
How old are you now?
jonathan gottschall
If I can get healthy.
I'm 42. It gets tough.
I know.
joe rogan
It gets tough.
jonathan gottschall
Well, the problem with me is, you know, this is why I think I had so many physical problems.
It's like, there is a nature and a nurture to flexibility.
You know, some people have, you know, some people have really high vertical leap just by nature.
You know, some people are really flexible just by nature.
I appear to be the guy who's not very flexible by nature.
unidentified
Okay.
jonathan gottschall
When I work on it really hard, but boy, I just don't seem to get much more flexible.
joe rogan
I oppose that because no one in my family is flexible but me.
And the reason why I'm flexible is because my body developed by stretching.
I mean, I was stretching from the time I was really young.
jonathan gottschall
Well, that could be it.
Starting when you're young and supple.
But when I was in my early 20s, you know, if you're doing karate, there's a lot of stuff you just can't do if you're not very flexible.
And so I worked on it really hard.
joe rogan
Well, there was a guy that used to come to our jiu-jitsu gym.
This is one of the reasons why I posed it.
And he was this big fucking football player.
And he was like 250 pounds.
And whenever I used to roll with him, I used to literally say, I'm going to go ride the bull.
Because that was what was like rolling with him.
He wasn't good.
I think I was a brown belt, and I think he was a white belt at the time.
And so I would always get him, but it would be a while.
I mean, it would be like, ah!
Like hanging on to this guy for a long time and riding the bull.
But this guy was a dedicated athlete and one of the things that he did was he radically improved his flexibility while he was there.
When he first started out, you know how you sit there like with your legs in a butterfly position and try to push your knees down to the ground?
He couldn't even come close.
His knees are like stuck up like this.
He couldn't push him down at all, but that fucking guy would be there after class for 40 minutes longer than anybody else, just stretching, just pushing his soft tissue to the limit every day.
And it's that kind of dedication that led to a year plus later, like my friend Eddie Bravo, my jujitsu instructor as well, He always talks about that guy, this one guy.
He fucking put in the time, put in the numbers, and he got really flexible.
I mean, he was almost at a full split after like a year and a half.
But it was the kind of dedication that led him to be a football player.
I mean, he was a professional athlete.
And this guy just fucking...
Put on the blinders and went for flexibility.
He knew he was ridiculously strong.
He knew he was ridiculously powerful.
So he had to learn the technique and he had to get flexible.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And so I saw him do it, man.
I saw it take place.
So whenever someone says, they say, oh, you only have certain restrictions.
There's only so far you can get.
jonathan gottschall
But you say this all the time.
Not everyone's given the same genetic gifts.
joe rogan
Yes.
jonathan gottschall
It's unequal.
joe rogan
No doubt about that.
jonathan gottschall
And you even said about your friend Eddie Bravo, you know, like, he's just a freakish, he has some freakish flexibility in some areas.
joe rogan
He does, but it's also, he's stretched those areas ad nauseum.
I mean, that guy, you'd be watching TV with him and he's pulling his foot to his chest.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
Like, seriously.
jonathan gottschall
I try it too, though.
I watch TV and I stretch the whole time.
joe rogan
I don't...
jonathan gottschall
I hope you're right.
joe rogan
I don't know how much you stretch, but I do know that I watched this guy do it, and I watched this guy get way more flexible, and it was amazing.
But my point is, there are unquestionably physical gifts that you can't achieve, like fast twitch muscle fibers, speed and power.
jonathan gottschall
Cardio too.
joe rogan
Cardio, Cain Velasquez is the one that they always bring up.
Size of bones, size of the hands, the width of the shoulders.
All those things contribute to power and also like the explosion, like the fast guys.
Like a guy like Uriah Hall.
Like Uriah Hall, without a doubt, is trained very hard and well prepared and he has excellent technique.
But you watch Uriah Hall shoot a straight right hand and you're like, okay, like...
I don't know how many guys can do it that fast.
He'll be like moving around and all of a sudden, CRAP! He'll like lean in with his right hand.
And you see the look on the guy's face after he got hit where he realizes like, whoa!
Like this guy's got some next level speed.
I was talking to Uriah's coaches after one of his fights.
He's like, he's the fastest fucking guy I've ever seen.
Like the fastest guy like you see him in the gym.
I mean he is so fucking fast and some of that is mean some Some portion of that is unattainable for the average person Yeah.
That's just the reality.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
But it doesn't...
jonathan gottschall
Why would you think it would be different for flexibility?
joe rogan
Because I think flexibility is something that you can push.
Because it's just a matter of how far your soft tissue goes.
Well, that's with cardio, too.
No, not really.
jonathan gottschall
Cardio, you can push like crazy.
There's a limit.
joe rogan
Capacity, though, is different.
The size of the heart is different.
Like, that's one of the things they always said about Lance Armstrong.
He has an enormous heart.
jonathan gottschall
That's part of the training, too, though.
joe rogan
Could be.
jonathan gottschall
You grow the heart.
It's a muscle.
It atrophies.
It hypertrophies.
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
joe rogan
Plus all the shit that he took.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, he's also injecting steroids directly into his fucking heart.
joe rogan
And one of those ones from Pulp Fiction, when they revived Uma Thurman, he's fucking right in there!
Who knows, man?
Who knows?
I just think that flexibility is a little bit more simple.
I don't think you could achieve the flexibility of, say, like...
jonathan gottschall
You have an anecdote of your big friend.
I'm saying that I think I'm the other anecdote.
joe rogan
Might be.
I've never seen you stretch, though.
jonathan gottschall
We'll do it after.
joe rogan
Okay, let's see how hard you push it.
Because some people get to a certain point like, okay, okay, okay.
But you got to get to that super I can't breathe point.
And you got to push that bitch.
It's just...
It's also like, how do you do it?
Do you do it correctly?
Do you have someone who's pushing you correctly?
And where are you starting out from?
You're starting out from 39, 40 years of doing jack shit to stretch out, and then all of a sudden you're trying to take these mature, older muscles and pull them apart.
jonathan gottschall
That's a big part of it.
That's right.
I've been sitting at a desk for years and years.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean, if somebody got a hold of you when you were 16...
jonathan gottschall
That's very possible.
joe rogan
And when you were doing Kyokushin, did your school really emphasize stretching?
jonathan gottschall
I did, you know, because I knew...
Well, I knew I couldn't kick guys in the head, and I knew I wanted to be able to, you know, because that was a big part of it.
There's all kinds of kicks.
I had all kinds of cool stuff I couldn't do.
joe rogan
Right.
jonathan gottschall
So I got a stretching machine, you know.
joe rogan
All those Chuck Norris jammies.
jonathan gottschall
I don't know if it was Chuck Norris.
I think I got the knockoff version because it was cheaper.
No crank, no.
joe rogan
You didn't have a crank?
unidentified
No.
jonathan gottschall
No, mine was different.
unidentified
It was some kind of PVC type thing.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
I know that type.
It was like a pipe and you pull the pipe and it stretches your legs apart.
Those do a little bit, but realistically, you don't need that.
What you really need is just someone who can help you and push your back down and then also the ability to withstand pain.
That's it.
The uncomfortable feeling of pushing your muscles to the limit.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
I don't mind that.
joe rogan
It's hard to change your body in many ways.
It's hard to develop more muscle because your body doesn't want to.
Your body doesn't want to change.
Your body just wants to get really sore and then discourage you from continuing to lift.
In order to force your body to gain weight.
Like if someone would say to me, hey man, I want to put on about five pounds of muscle.
Well, you're going to have to work out three days a week like a madman for a year.
Good luck.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
There's one thing if you're a dedicated professional athlete, you've been doing it a long time, and your body knows how to grow, and there's a certain amount of muscle memory that comes into play.
When you see someone who is really big, but then they lose the muscle mass, like maybe they'll get into something else and they'll stop lifting, they can get really big way quicker than the average person.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, that seems right.
joe rogan
No, it's a fact.
Like, say if you used to weigh 230 pounds, you're a big fucking giant dude, and then you drop down to 170, you could gain, like, if you took two dudes that weighed 170, and they were both, you know, reasonably fit, and one of them used to be enormous, he will get bigger quicker.
Just muscle memory.
There's no getting around that.
But your body doesn't want to do it.
You have to really push that bitch.
And I think the same takes place with flexibility and the same holds true with gains, with size gains.
This is very difficult to do.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
You have to be willing to push your body to this really uncomfortable position, and then you have to fuel it with all sorts of food.
It's like I get a kick out of whenever people compare.
It's a funny thing.
It happens on my message board or my forum sometimes.
People start talking about diets and caloric requirements, and then they'll bring up Michael Phelps.
Well, Michael Phelps ate 15 fucking pizzas a day.
Do you have any idea how hard Michael Phelps works out?
Don't ever fucking compare yourself to Michael.
Just stop.
He's the greatest Olympic swimmer the world has ever known.
And whatever genetic gifts he has, they were unquestionably accentuated by a barbaric worth ethic.
And weed.
Those things helped.
I think that weed helped him recover.
jonathan gottschall
And he's 6'7".
joe rogan
Yeah, he's a big giant fucking long dude.
But also the amount of calories that guy was burning every day.
The average person really can't relate.
You just, you can't relate.
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
Like, the amount of effort that it takes to be a Chris Weidman.
The kind of training camps that Vitor Belfort goes through.
What, you know, what John Jones went through when he trained for Daniel Cormier.
jonathan gottschall
I guess it would be interesting with the stronger drug testing.
See if these guys can get through these kind of camps.
joe rogan
You got a very good point.
Well, that's the dirty secret.
justin wren
You know, that's sort of being slowly but surely revealed.
joe rogan
For the longest time, there are certain things that you couldn't test for, like growth hormone.
You couldn't even find it, you know?
I had a conversation with Chael Sonnen after he got popped.
And, you know, he wanted to talk to me on the phone about, like, how he should approach it.
And Chael's a funny guy, man.
He's fucking hilarious.
He's a great shit talker, too.
But he goes, yeah, you know those drug tests?
Turns out they're really good.
unidentified
I don't know.
joe rogan
He got caught for all sorts of shit that he never thought he'd get caught for.
Growth hormone, EPO. He had it all.
Yeah, he had a cocktail going.
But, you know, in his mind, I think he had a very small window to achieve something, and he probably was correct in assuming that he wasn't the only one doing it.
jonathan gottschall
He's probably correct in assuming that it's almost impossible, not almost impossible, but it's really hard to get to win the belt without it.
joe rogan
Well, Jose Aldo had a really interesting thing to say.
And Andre Penares as well.
They were talking about steroids.
And they were like, well, we support testing, but I hope the UFC realizes the fights won't be as exciting.
Like, the fighters won't be as good.
jonathan gottschall
Well, they're also going to be out of fights more often.
They're also not going to be able to make it to Fight Day.
They're not going to have the healing benefits of all that testosterone.
joe rogan
Yeah, you're redlining your body, going through camp, and then bing, bing, bing, bing.
Things fucking break off and cylinders blow.
jonathan gottschall
I don't think they can work as hard as they're working without some help.
joe rogan
Some can.
jonathan gottschall
Some can.
joe rogan
Some are clean.
Some have always been clean.
Guys like Frankie Edgar, he's clean as fuck.
jonathan gottschall
A lot of guys you think are clean turn out not to be, you know?
joe rogan
That's a problem.
jonathan gottschall
I mean, I think Frankie Edgar is almost certainly clean.
But who knows if he's not eating EPO. And that's, you know, one of the secrets to his incredible cardio.
I don't think that at all.
But you wouldn't know, is my point.
joe rogan
Well, yeah, I don't know.
I mean, John Fitch really surprised me when he turned positive.
jonathan gottschall
Tons of people were surprised.
Anderson Silva was surprising, right?
joe rogan
Yeah.
I wish I could tell you, I'll tell you off the air.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
I can't tell you on the air the Anderson Silva situation.
It's a bit more complicated.
jonathan gottschall
Okay.
joe rogan
First of all, he unquestionably took some for his leg.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
To try to heal his leg.
38 years old, he had a broken leg.
jonathan gottschall
I can see the temptation.
joe rogan
Yeah, there's a lot and there's also I think that there is nothing this is my opinion I think that it is not only is there nothing wrong, but there may be a case for doctors to prescribe Some sort of steroids some controlled amount of some sort of steroids for catastrophic injuries like massive leg breaks or you know the pec tears or there's some Pretty fucking significant injuries.
Here's another one.
Hector Lombard went through a bulging disc, like a significantly injured disc, and then was fighting, you know, I think he had a fight schedule like six months later.
Good luck trying to recover from something like that in six months.
I mean, you kind of can, but can you recover enough in three months to go through a three-month camp?
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
Most likely not.
And then he turned up positive for some designer steroid that most people didn't think they were testing for.
You know, like the whole Barry Bonds thing with the clear and all this, you know, there was a lot of that going on, I think.
In boxing, there was a lot of that going on.
jonathan gottschall
There was tons of it.
unidentified
I mean, the big giveaway is to have all these old guys.
jonathan gottschall
These guys in their 40s still competing as cage fighters.
joe rogan
Well, that doesn't really exist anymore.
I mean, Randy was like kind of the last one that competed at a super high level.
jonathan gottschall
But still just be able to do it at all in that sport, man?
In your 40s?
joe rogan
Randy's also an undeniable freak of nature because Randy never got hurt.
I mean, Randy lost and he got knocked out and stuff like that, but I mean in training.
Like, he never had a surgery, never had a broken hand.
He got his arm broken in the Gonzaga fight, but that was blocking a kick.
jonathan gottschall
He looked awfully good for 50. He's a fucking stud.
joe rogan
He's a goddamn...
I mean, that's the real Captain America.
Randy Couture is a fucking stud.
You have to be to be able to...
jonathan gottschall
But don't you assume that he was on something?
In that era?
joe rogan
Yes and no.
I don't have the evidence.
I assume that it's very likely.
Well, I've said the same thing about Fedor and people got mad at me.
Fedor fought in a dirty league.
He fought in Pride.
It was a dirty league.
I mean, Ensign Inouye sat in the very seat you're sitting in and was laughing about his contract for Pride where they told him that we don't test for steroids.
Does that mean that Fedor was not on it?
No, it doesn't mean that.
But when you have a league where everyone's on it, like Vanderlei was without a doubt.
And I said, one of my favorite fighters of all time.
It's not my number one favorite.
Yeah.
Like when I get excited to watch a fight, when Vanderlei was fighting, it was probably the most excited you can get.
You know, it's just like you knew it was just going to be chaos.
Just such a berserker, you know?
jonathan gottschall
He was terrifying.
joe rogan
But he was obviously on some shit.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Obviously.
And the Vanderlei that showed up at the UFC was not the same guy.
He just wasn't.
I mean, he still had that warrior's heart, but his body just did not cooperate the same way.
And a lot of it is probably because his endocrine system is all fucked up from years of using stuff.
So, you know, was he?
I don't know.
I don't know.
You know, I'm just guessing.
I'm just all guessing.
jonathan gottschall
No, I'm totally guessing.
joe rogan
The Vanderlei one, Vanderlei ran away from a drug test, too, and now is suspended indefinitely, which I think is kind of fucked up.
You know, I think they should have...
The worst they could give you at the time, you tested positive, was like a year.
They should have given him a year.
They should have said, look, dude, we know what the fuck is going on.
And then, if that's the case, he'd already be fighting again by now.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, you could treat it just like that's a concession.
I concede that I'm using it.
If I run, I concede.
joe rogan
Yeah, they wanted to make an example out of him, and they said, you know, we're gonna give you a lifetime ban.
Well, that's fucked up, man, because this guy, this is his life, this is his living.
He essentially took away his living from one violation, the only violation of his entire professional career.
You know, suspicions aside, and there's certainly suspicions of when he was competing in Pride, and even possibly suspicions of when he was competing in the UFC. But the reality is, the guy never got caught except for the one time when he evaded a test.
Treat it like it's a positive test.
You know?
I mean, I get the whole idea of sending a fucking message, but that message has long been sent.
I mean, everybody knows.
If you test positive, and then you see the new testing rules that they pulled out, the new ones are brutal.
The new ones are...
jonathan gottschall
Was it three years?
joe rogan
Three years.
Some of them are lifetime.
For first offense.
Lifetime, if you have a second, if you try to run away from a test.
The second time you try to run away from a test is a lifetime suspension.
jonathan gottschall
But three years for a first offense.
joe rogan
I don't know if it's three years or two years.
I think it's two years, three years for a second offense.
jonathan gottschall
That's almost a career under.
joe rogan
Not only that, they take 75% of your purse, up to 75% of your purse.
There's some big ones.
jonathan gottschall
If you take three years out of a guy's prime...
joe rogan
Especially a guy in his late 30s, like an Anderson.
Like Anderson.
Anderson's going through, I don't know what they give him, a year and a half, and he's fighting against it.
We'll talk in about 10 minutes, and I'll give you the whole rundown of what I actually know.
You'll go, oh, I wish I could tell you.
Here it goes.
First offense for testosterone, antibiotic steroids, HGH, 36-month suspension, fine of 50-75%.
Second offense for...
Four fucking years.
75 to 100% of fighters' purse.
Third offense, lifetime suspension.
Fine of 100%.
Avoiding first offense, four years.
Fine of 75%.
Second offense, lifetime suspension.
Fine of 100% of fighters' purse.
jonathan gottschall
Well, I wonder if that'll be enough.
unidentified
I guess the idea is we're gonna hang you.
jonathan gottschall
They're trying to set up a sort of almost a zero tolerance policy in order to scare guys straight.
joe rogan
Well, Bronda Rousey had a very good point.
And this point is that if someone uses some sort of anabolic steroid and they can hit their opponent more and then that opponent dies...
jonathan gottschall
Totally!
joe rogan
Is that murder?
Or is that manslaughter?
jonathan gottschall
That's interesting.
joe rogan
Very good point.
jonathan gottschall
The guys are already superheroes.
unidentified
Exactly.
jonathan gottschall
And you juice them up, and yeah, that's dangerous.
joe rogan
You can most certainly, if you're on EPO and human growth hormone and testosterone, you can most certainly hit someone more than you would be able to if you were not on that.
Definitely.
Especially if, like, these cases where guys are testing with, like, literally superhuman levels.
Like Vitor, when they eventually rescinded the testosterone replacement therapy thing for Nevada, when they tested him, he was at 1,475.
An average man in his prime is like around 500 to like 800 for some crazy stud.
So he was like essentially like double a human being.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
The level of testosterone, so it's crazy.
Nevada judge overturns Vandele Silva's lifetime ban.
unidentified
Really?
joe rogan
This just happened?
Today?
Holy shit!
Breaking news, ladies and gentlemen!
Talk about fucking current!
And talk about poignant!
Wow, pull that down!
Let's fucking scroll that!
Good for him!
They broke at 230. Vandele Silva won a major victory in court today with a Nevada district judge throwing out the lifetime ban.
I will applaud!
I applaud that!
ESPN's Brett Akimoto reported via Twitter that the judge did agree that the Nevada State Athletic Commission had jurisdiction over Silva despite being an unlicensed athlete at the time, but that there was not sufficient evidence to support a lifetime ban.
I agree.
35-12-1 MMA, 5-7 in the UFC was handed a hefty punishment after he ran from a random drug test.
So they overturned the suspension, the lifetime ban, but it doesn't mean that he's been reinstated.
It's not reinstated.
But what's good is he's still under contract with the UFC. The UFC wouldn't even let him...
He made a bunch of really critical videos about the UFC. Which, again, a lot of these guys, man, they need someone to talk to.
I would love to be the guy, you know?
I'd love to be the guy that talked to a lot of these guys and just go, don't do that.
Don't do that.
jonathan gottschall
Well, once he was banned for life.
joe rogan
Well, also, he was talking about the UFC treating people like slaves.
And then, you know, Dana's like, we gave you $9 million.
jonathan gottschall
Wow.
joe rogan
That's how much he made in the UFC. Really?
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
It's like, come on, son.
That's not slavery.
unidentified
That's not slavery.
joe rogan
You fought for seven years.
You made nine million bucks.
jonathan gottschall
That's good money.
joe rogan
That's good money, man.
unidentified
Forever.
joe rogan
And you had seminars.
You ran a gym.
Oh, yeah.
You did well.
You're a fucking...
And he's a loved guy.
I just have a soft spot in my heart for Vandalay.
Like, as a human being, like, when I know him, when I meet him and see him, I always like to see him.
He's a very warm, friendly guy.
And I just...
Any guy who's willing to fight like that guy...
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
That guy.
jonathan gottschall
And be a sweet guy out of the cage.
That's what's so fascinating about people like him.
I had some friends from my gym who trained with Vanderlei's gym.
They all love him.
joe rogan
Oh, he's a sweet guy.
But he spars like it's life or death.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah.
joe rogan
Like there's videos of him sparring.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, I've heard about that.
joe rogan
And I'm like, Jesus.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, that was the real Stone Age.
unidentified
What was that?
jonathan gottschall
Shootbox?
joe rogan
Yeah, Shoot the Box.
jonathan gottschall
Shoot the Box.
joe rogan
Well, who'd you are?
You know, the guy who ran it.
jonathan gottschall
What does Shoot the Box mean?
Does it mean shoot and box?
What does it mean?
joe rogan
That's a good question.
I mean, it's obviously a Portuguese version probably of shoot box.
That's how John Donaher describes MMA, shoot boxing.
You know, shoot box rules, the rules of engagement and the way you approach it and think it.
I think that what they did at shoot box was establish the most aggressive, most intimidating team ever.
You know, especially at that time, like they were just all berserkers Vanderlei, Shogun, Ninja, Anderson, Pele.
There was just one killer after another.
jonathan gottschall
In their primes, too.
joe rogan
In their primes.
And then, you know, Rafael Cordero, a guy who's gone from that gym and now is training like Fabrizio Verdum, radically increased his striking.
Rafael Dos Anjos radically increased his striking.
Those guys are good.
Yeah, it's not just like that attitude and that drive.
It's also skill.
Like those guys are very skillful.
And they just also know about putting pressure on motherfuckers.
Like Dos Anjos versus Pettis, that was just aggression and pressure.
But again, after that fight, I've got Nick Curzon, the guy who trained him in his strength and conditioning up, I think he's here next week.
No, I'm sorry.
He's here on Wednesday.
And I'm really interested to talk to him about it because his style of training fighters...
He learned from the Marinovichs, the same guy that got B.J. Penn in the best shape of his life, back when he fought like Diego Sanchez.
That B.J., I think, one of the greatest fighters of all time for sure, B.J. Penn, but I think that B.J. is the prime B.J. So I'm really curious to see what their approach was to get a guy in the kind of condition where he could fight five retarded hard rounds like that.
jonathan gottschall
I don't know how it's possible.
I don't know how it's possible.
In the amateur divisions, we did two-minute rounds.
And if you were in a, you know, in really intense rounds where the striking was heavy and you mix in the grappling with it, all the heavy exertion of grappling, I was more, you talked about having a heart attack doing hot yoga.
I felt that way all the time, like I'm gonna die.
And I watch these guys on TV doing five minute rounds after five minute rounds and sometimes walking back to their corners after this crazy round with their mouths closed.
Breathing calmly through their noses.
To me, that's the most freakish thing about these athletes.
joe rogan
Did you watch Neil Magny this weekend?
jonathan gottschall
Well, I know.
I actually listened to the Fight Companion.
joe rogan
Oh, dude.
Neil Magny's got insane fucking cardio.
It's insane.
jonathan gottschall
Well, a lot of them do.
unidentified
Yeah.
jonathan gottschall
Vincent Henderson.
You know, Vincent Henderson has these frenetic fights.
Tons of grappling, tons of striking.
He's just never tired.
They don't know what it's like to be tired of these guys.
joe rogan
Work ethic.
Just insane work ethic and never getting out of shape and never abusing your body and always Eating the right foods, getting the right rest, putting altitude tents up in your house.
Neil actually trains at altitude.
He trains in altitude MMA. Actually, that's his gym in Denver.
But yeah, there's an advantage in that for sure.
There's an advantage in sleeping at altitude is the big one.
They actually say that you should go up to Big Bear to sleep and come down to sea level to train.
That's what they say.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, yeah, I see that.
joe rogan
Because that way you could put out more output.
jonathan gottschall
More workload.
joe rogan
Yeah, more work, but you recover because of the sleeping at altitude.
Right.
We're almost out of time, but what's the biggest thing that you got out of this whole experiment, other than a great book?
Which I've heard nothing but fantastic things about this book, by the way.
It's one of the reasons why I wanted to get you in here.
Oh, thanks.
I'm incredibly honest in this about your fears and the experience and very eloquent.
So, the professor in the cage, go get this book, you fucks.
It's great.
I can't wait to read it.
jonathan gottschall
Oh, thanks.
joe rogan
I don't even read hardcover books anymore.
jonathan gottschall
Well, like I said, you know, when I was writing it, I was thinking to myself, sometimes, like, you know, if Joe Rogan doesn't like this book, I'm fucked.
Because it means I totally whiffed.
joe rogan
I'm gonna kindle it, too.
Kindles are so much better to me.
I like the paper.
You're one of those guys.
unidentified
What are you, like, making your own firewood?
joe rogan
What is the big thing that you got out of this?
jonathan gottschall
Personally or sort of intellectually?
joe rogan
All of the above.
I mean, intellectually is personally, right?
jonathan gottschall
Personally, you know, I'd been through a sort of lifetime of, I don't know, like, I was a late bloomer as a kid, real small, always sort of the runt of my in school.
I'm a sort of average-sized guy now, but I came to my growth really late.
And so I sort of have a basic, you know, schoolboy story about getting pushed around and bullied.
And there's no heroism in that story.
I always backed down.
I always ran for it.
I always found some way out of it.
It wasn't because I was a pacifist.
It wasn't like I had some noble, high-minded reasons for avoiding the violence.
It was that I was scared, and I knew I was going to get my ass kicked.
But I've always kind of felt like that's no excuse for not for fighting, you know, that you should stand up to the bully.
I've always felt that way, even though I never did it.
So I've So part of what I wanted to do was I wanted to go into that cage and I wanted to sort of stand up to guys who were stronger than me and more skilled than me and sort of take in those beatings that I felt like I should have taken 20 years ago.
You know what I mean?
Wow.
joe rogan
That's deep.
jonathan gottschall
Well, yeah.
I don't know if you've ever had experience like that as a boy.
Where you behaved in a fashion that you define as cowardly.
joe rogan
Yes, definitely.
jonathan gottschall
And it's amazing to me.
I'm 42 years old now.
I've had a lot of accomplishments in my life.
I have a beautiful wife.
I have little children who are wonderful.
It's amazing to me how much psychological weight that still carries for me, that I can still make myself blush.
Thinking back to those moments.
So part of it was a redemption story for me about whether I could do something to redeem myself, at least in my own eyes, for those times when I'd flinched as a kid.
joe rogan
That's awesome.
I love that.
I love that you did that.
I don't love that you're still blushing over it.
jonathan gottschall
It's silly.
unidentified
It's so stupid.
jonathan gottschall
It's so crazy.
joe rogan
But it just means you've got work to do.
That's all it is.
You've just got work before you realize you're not that guy anymore.
Right.
I sort of became what I was terrified of.
That's to avoid being bullied.
I never got in fights.
From high school on, I never got in fights.
But I didn't get in fights by becoming far stronger than I ever was before.
But I still would think back to guys that I was scared of when I was in high school.
But I never feel like I want to go back now and fucking kick their ass.
That was surprising to me that I never wanted to do that.
And I never wanted to go back like, hey dude, you remember when you fucked with me?
I never wanted to do that.
But I also never carried that burden around.
jonathan gottschall
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
One time when I was, I think I was about like 19 or 20, when I was already a black belt and I was working out at my gym where I used to teach in Boston and I was just doing these heavy rounds on the back preparing for this tournament.
I looked up, and this guy was watching that used to bully me in junior high school.
This guy, not even from my high school, I went to a really rough junior high school in Jamaica Plain, which is kind of gentrified now, but at the time it was a really sketchy area in Massachusetts.
And I looked up, and I felt bad for the guy.
It was really interesting.
Instead of being angry at him, I felt bad for him.
jonathan gottschall
No, that's right.
All those guys from high school were just kids, too.
You know, they were fuck-ups, too.
They had their own insecurities.
They had their own problems.
They're not bad people.
It's stupid to be hung up on it.
And I'm not very hung up on it.
I don't have any fantasies of going back and beating those guys up.
But I do hope they'll read the book.
unidentified
And they'll think, boy, he was a cowardly boy, but he grew into a brave man.
joe rogan
The Professor in the Cage.
You can buy it right now.
And it's available on Amazon, right?
jonathan gottschall
I can get a Kindle version of it.
Oh, yeah.
joe rogan
All right.
Beautiful.
Thank you, John.
Really appreciate it.
jonathan gottschall
Hey, it was great to come on.
I appreciate it, man.
joe rogan
Go buy it.
Go read it, ladies and gentlemen.
The Professor in the Cage.
I'll be reading it.
I'll be talking about it on a future podcast, I'm sure.
Thank you, sir.
Appreciate it.
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