Rickson Gracie and Eddie Bravo break down the UFC’s early dominance, like Royce Gracie’s chokes at UFC 2, and critique modern MMA’s shorter rounds favoring striking over grappling. Rickson credits his success to relentless dedication and a "God gift," while praising Ronda Rousey’s armbar mastery and Shinya Aoki’s submission precision. They dissect overlooked jiu-jitsu fundamentals—leverage, grip angles—and adapt techniques like the darse choke (wrestling-derived) or triangle choke (inspired by Marcio Macarron). Rickson also defends cannabis in sports, questions anti-doping logic, and contrasts modern conformity with his philosophy of passion, tradition, and ocean-driven spirituality. [Automatically generated summary]
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Out of all the people online, whenever things get brought up for mixed martial arts guests or jujitsu guests, it's always get Hicks and Gracie on the podcast.
So the clouds have parted, the stars have aligned, and you're here, and we appreciate it very much.
I'm very thankful too, Joe and Eddie, to be with you guys here and have this conversation.
It's funny because last time we talked in my house, a while ago, of course, you make me some questions, you're curious, you're all about knowing what has in my mind.
And at this point, I was the talker.
And, you know, in the past, and the time goes by, and today I can see, after all this process of evolutionary process in the MMA and the martial arts world, I mean, since then I've been watching you doing your job.
Commenting fights, analyzing other fighters.
And today I can see, man, you are a red belt in the whole extension of the world.
You know everything.
I mean, if I have a question, I have to call you and ask you what's up because I'm very, very, I mean, impressed with your career, with your charisma, with the way you position your opinions.
It's all very precise, so...
I'm very happy to be here and discuss some talks and talk with you here.
95 going into 96, and you were fighting in Japan, in the Japan Valley Tudo, and it documented a lot of your training, and it documented your philosophy.
Yes, I think for the athlete in general, the understanding of the breathing is a big plus because by hyperventilating, you stretch your physical potential.
By knowing how to breathe properly, you relax.
You can bring your heart beats lower.
There's a lot of elements in the breathing who are involved We're controlling emotions, getting more energy and so on.
So as I get exposed to breathing properly, I get addicted and I felt like it was a huge element of, you know, in addition to the techniques, in addition to the heart and to the heart training.
Learning the breathing is a huge beneficial thing for the athlete.
Now you see athletes like tennis players, they play in breathing, and the breath is much more into the sport today.
So it's a process of...
Knowing, now I see Krohn, my son, he's, I mean, before he's just like, see, oh, Dad, I see you training and breathing.
But now he's coming to me and said, Dad, this makes all the difference in the world when I really, you know, start to getting tired to make hyperventilation and keep my mind, like, sharp.
Because sometimes if you get tired...
There's not enough oxygen in the blood to feel your sharpness in your mind, so you become a little stupid, a little slower, you know?
So, by having a good Knowing how to hyperventilate, you're able to maximize this oxygen.
So even though the acetylactic take over your body, your mind is still sharp and you're still responding accordingly.
Oh, it was, you know, I'm very happy to be related with this master called Orlando Cunny.
Which was the precursor of the Ginástica Natural.
I was learning at the same time, Alvaro Romano, who is the guy who is now making the tapes.
We're learning together, you know?
And at that point, I was just practicing with him, like he loved my father.
He's an older guy who's a very tough athlete and also a yoga teacher.
So he combined He developed some kind of style of yoga which is not exactly a postural, like postures and breathing to relax or to achieve meditation.
It was more like an active breathing for athletes.
In order for you to jump higher, you have to know how to have harmony between your jump and your breathing.
Keep more strength for a long time.
You have to know how to breed accordingly to promote that.
So he's always in the active breeding.
And then we started doing privates and I was in his place for a couple of months.
He's guiding me through the moves in front of a mirror in a nice room.
One day, we were about to start the class, and as soon as we were about to start, he was calling the phone, and he said to me, Hickson, you keep going and I'll be right back.
So for the first time, I was able to breathe, make my routine without following him up, without having my mind focused on what he was doing.
So I started to breathe and move and breathe and move, And then it has some woods on the walls.
We kind of imitate monkeys to climb the wood and stuff.
So at one point, I come back to reality.
And then I was on top of the highest frame in the wall, sweating like a pig.
And then I look around and start to come back to reality.
And I saw him on the corner crying.
And then I said, what's up, man?
What's going on?
He said, man, you don't have to learn anything else from me.
You achieve the highest level of get empty mind.
And then I kind of said, why do you say that?
He said, yeah, because you're here for an hour and 15 minutes and completely off.
I mean, you didn't notice anything.
Because he was applying the development of the animal instinct, which takes your brain off...
Your mind, your concentration, and keep you more like an instinctive animal.
And that was the vision.
And through this, because before that, I was doing transcendental meditation, I did traditional yoga, and those never did great for me.
In the meditation, I was sleeping.
By doing that kind of routine, I was able to not just breathe properly, but also...
Achieve empty mind.
And I was like in a state, a meditation state for a long time, like not concentrating on anything like rational.
Oh, he's there or he's...
So I was able to achieve like an empty mind.
And after I noticed that, I started to practice my routines to get that same feeling of emptiness.
And that kind of meditation works for me as no other one.
And I felt like being an empty mind increases my, I don't know, my intuition, increases my sense of energy.
So it was incredible for me because I could...
Get in touch more comfortably with my, I mean, my third vision.
I don't know exactly what to explain, but I could achieve a completely peace of mind in that kind of routine.
Yes, and that's a kind of a weird positive feeling because You're capable to be present in a sense which, if you have your mind set, if you have something, expectations, you're never there.
So I was able to be very comfortable and very easily to get into that situation where even prior to the fight, I'm able to sleep on the locker room, making my workout, getting a very high heartbeat.
And then like five minutes before, I make my praise, I make my meditation, and I kind of cool off my heartbeat to 60 heartbeats a minute.
So I was able to engage very hot, And with the hard, very low heartbeat.
And as the fight progresses, the pace is very hard.
If I'm 60, he is 80. When I'm 80, he's 100. When I'm 100, he's 120. When I'm 120, he's a 45. So when he started to have to regroup, I was still having to go forward.
So at that point, my opponents always lose a little bit.
So it was a time for me to make the kill, you know.
So this empty mind state enhanced your jiu-jitsu, this ability to achieve this state on top of all the techniques, on top of all the training and the instincts, this took it to the next level.
Yes, because, you know, at one point, if you allowed yourself to be present, you not commit to the offense or the defense, you commit to give nothing and take everything.
So you give me opportunity, I will be there.
If you try to surprise me, I will be there accordingly defending myself.
So it's all on the table.
It's like no surprises because there's no expectations.
So keeping a cool mind, even when it's boiling, is something I felt like was always like something which gives me an edge.
Because I was there just to either catch what is there or resolve the problem.
And the Pan American Games we went in San Diego was very interesting because the fighters, they don't expect so much submissions.
And we start immediately because tough wrestlers, tough judo players.
So we start immediately bringing the fight to the ground and go for foot locks and knee locks.
And immediately, I mean, in the first qualification phase, they start to tap in a lot.
And then the referees start to become kind of a little skeptical about that.
They start to become more...
So once Halls grabbed them in the footlock, especially in the final match in his weight division, He got the guy on the footlock, the referee stopped the fight and said, no, you cannot get the footlock on the joint.
You have to get on the shin.
And then it's kind of confusing, you know, and cutting.
And then we come in and I was in the My Way division, which is one above Halls.
And Hollis was below me, and Carlos was on top of me.
So we're kind of having one in each division.
And as the competition progresses, the referees start to see those three guys from Brazil just submitting everybody because in Samba, chokes are not allowed.
No headlocks, no collar chokes.
It's only knee locks, foot locks, or straight arm bars.
You cannot even do the Americanas because it goes in the...
So we just go and try to do footlocks because those are the easiest way.
So we start to finish the guys and they start to say, oh, this guy's coming and do footlocks.
It's funny when you look back at old Eric Paulson fights from Japan, you look at the stuff he was doing, and people today still aren't even doing that.
He's way ahead of the game, too.
Eric Paulson was an encyclopedia of submissions.
Him and Matt Hume.
Those guys back then, it looked like Like advanced Jiu Jitsu, and of course, you know, anytime you got the mount, there was always an arm bar.
First, of course, it's a pleasure to talk about all this.
And I can answer that because I feel like the heel hooks...
It has to be implemented in the top-level fighters because it's a solid technique, but because it's designed to stretch the ligaments, not the joints, it's a difference between you going in your finger this way, you're going to feel pain before it breaks.
But if you go this way, you're going to resist until it pops.
So it's just ligaments.
It's not a joint.
This is a joint.
This is a ligament.
So when you twist the knee, the guy can still resist.
And when he feels, he's going to feel the pop.
He's not going to feel the pain to tap.
So this is in a way, if you don't have the experience, you're going to bust your knee.
So we don't want to see guys with busted knees just because they're tough or just because they don't know.
So we forbid in a whole...
The heel hooks.
But in an advanced level, like Metamores or like premium pros, I think they should bring back in.
Because this is part of the game and you have to be responsible to let it broke or tap.
I allow heel hooks from day one only because I... As an instructor, I don't want some leg lock guy coming into my school and tapping everybody out with leg locks.
So I wanted all my guys to be very well-versed in leg locks.
And in Naga and Grapper's Quest, they allow heel hooks and you rarely ever hear about anybody getting hurt.
I think once you learn how to defend it, it's actually...
People will tap generally, and some people that don't tap, like Gary Tonin was talking about the first time, someone got him in a heel hook and his knee popped a few times.
Again, in 10 years, I... I can't even tell you that maybe leg compressions a couple times guys have had their knees pop from leg compressions and even lockdown I've had a couple guys get their knee popped but heel hooks and reaping that's not something that I ever had to say we got to slow down be careful with the knee reaps just no one really gets hurt what seems to be a technique that when people were ignorant of it that's when people are really getting hurt more yeah Yeah,
And when we were adding wrestling to our jiu-jitsu classes, trying to combine it, now we separate.
We have separate wrestling classes and separate jiu-jitsu classes.
At a time when I was trying to combine it together, we would have a day where we'd just do wrestling and we'd do live wrestling drills and we're all standing up.
And then he becomes a little more smart, and he comes...
So it was a long second round.
Eventually, I went to his back and submitted him again.
And after a few sessions, I make him tap some.
And he was very impressed.
Like...
Well, nobody did this with me.
I mean, what's going on?
I mean, he was stronger than me.
I mean, of course, a warrior.
And he was not happy.
I mean, somebody said once, you show me a good loser and I show you a loser.
So he was not happy at all.
And of course I understood that.
But eventually he settled and he understood was a technique involved.
And he started to become training with Pedro and become passionate about Jiu Jitsu.
He trained a lot and he became like a supporter of the Jiu Jitsu cause in Utah.
And you know, it was a great experience because I can felt like the whole level of training and body control he has, but still like at that point the wrestlers have no clue what is, you know, submission.
So it was kind of, you know, a surprising thing for them, which doesn't happen those days.
Like if the guy grabs you, you're able to make the movement to go to his back, like good turnovers, a good excellent sense of no-gi bass control, good grips to...
But what I remember, it was the feeling I felt by achieving my goal, I was making him feel like he was losing his position.
And I felt, the same way I felt happy, I felt sad because It was not his anymore.
It's myself, my responsibility now.
And we know that, and nobody knew.
I mean, of course, people saw the training, but at that point, I felt like I was there still to support him, but I was better than him.
And we're still competing in the events coming, and we always close the bracket because he goes in his weight division, I go in mine, and we go together in the open division.
So we always close the open, you know, and I never will fight, I mean, up to that day, he always being the first and I'm the second, the medal is his, even though I knew I could maybe change this, you know?
I never, ever will...
If he's still alive, he will be the number one and I'm number two, based on respect, based on hierarchy.
And I... I mean, I really appreciate you talking about the past, but I'd like to make a little pause on this and really bring up the most...
Because we have to live today.
We have to be motivated.
And I'm very happy today to come here to explain and talk about this new venture I'm involved with, which is the new JJGF, Jiu-Jitsu Global Federation.
Because talking about Jiu-Jitsu, talking about rules, talking about the future of Jiu-Jitsu, I think we're having a huge problem to be resolved.
And that is crucial for the future.
I see like this new organization will bring to the table the elements to resolve our problem.
I think our biggest problem today in the Jiu Jitsu community is losing effectiveness.
We've been losing effectiveness drastically from the last 15 years because The way, in order for us to restore effectiveness, I felt very appealing to me to engage in this venture, which through this federation, We're going to try to resolve three important...
I mean, we have three pillars of action to try to resolve that problem Jiu-Jitsu has.
I'm going to explain to you because it's different.
Efficiency and effectiveness.
Today, I see the top camp champions very efficient on getting medals, but they're losing effectiveness in real life.
And if you see Jiu-Jitsu as I grow up, the core of Jiu-Jitsu was self-defense, is preparing the students to handle situations.
Today, the evolutionary process of jiu-jitsu brought the sport of jiu-jitsu and those rules, diminishing that effectiveness in the search for the medal.
So, and like, nothing can be boring for me, more boring than watch some fights in jiu-jitsu tournaments those days.
They can choose between stepping the brake or stepping on the gas.
They can choose because the rules favor...
If you are strategically correct, you may want to go in the fight to fight a situation where you can control the pace of the fight, you can manage the whole thing, and eventually, by one or two moves, you get advantage and win the medal.
So, great!
You have the medal.
But sometimes, that shows...
A lack of desire to compete.
A lack of desire to engage in a fair fight.
A lot of times I see a white belt or a blue belt or a purple belt fight which is much more appealing, has much more open situations of changing positions than a black belt who sometimes sits on the floor and is stuck in a position who holds...
He's stalling the whole action.
So, by doing that, he's efficient on getting the medal, but he's losing effectiveness to handle real life.
That's why it's hard to see a jiu-jitsu representative on the cage who translates that.
I mean, I see jiu-jitsu translate today something I feel like I never will fight like that.
The guy is a jiu-jitsu practitioner for life.
He's great.
He's talented.
He's tough.
He's sometimes a champion.
But he don't fight the way I believe he's supposed to be fighting there.
You know, he has no idea of clinching.
He has no idea of sidekick.
He has no idea of a valetudo guard.
They have a sportive guard all the time trying to do homoplatas, you know, instead, and the guy on top just hamming them down.
So it's kind of weird because without that kind of efficiency, I mean, I'm sorry, effectiveness, Jiu-Jitsu is losing the integrity, the whole culture, the whole concepts I trust and I believe all my life.
For example, this new situation will be this federation is not there to compete with other organizations.
I'm not there to...
I'm doing the job It was not done yet, you know.
Based on this platform, this state-of-the-art platform, we try to have three different elements to work with.
The information.
I think the vision is to perform something, a good service.
My intention with this is to serve the community In the sport community, the worldwide jiu-jitsu community, and the sport of jiu-jitsu.
Thinking that, I have three different elements.
The first one is the communication aspect, the information.
Through the site, you're going to have a listing of all the academies on the planet.
We have a listing of all athletes.
Profiles, downloads of fights.
So they will have the option to request sponsors, show themselves.
It's like a Google slash Facebook for the community.
And also we're going to have a Masters Council which brings all the guys who have traditionally spent their lives in the Jiu-Jitsu community to have a voice, active voice for the community.
So in the forums...
Sometimes somebody makes a question about a position, so the masters will be involved in answers if they want, and they will be highlighted because that's his opinion, that's my opinion.
So people, the community is going to start to evaluate what's beneficial and what's negative, what the master has to say.
So it creates a network which is most needed to unify the community.
I see the community, should they completely split?
You know, some federations have their own circuits, some others.
So it's 30 events on one side, another 30 on the other side, and then has, you know, Naga 7, Grappler Quest, have Dream, have IBJJF. So all this is completely disorganized and completely split.
So my intention is bringing to the community a sense of Of unification.
Based on this information, who is good for everyone.
Like another important point is have contributors from all over to bringing the reports of what's happening in this event, who is the champion, who is that, news and everything.
Because some magazines today, they're completely partial.
They just will talk and explain about their athletes or in their society.
It does not cover the whole community.
So through this information, this solid, efficient, general information, the whole community will be informed, will be connected, will be asking and being listened.
So I think that's very important for the community.
Another big pillar of our federation is the competition aspect, which...
By changing rules, we restore effectiveness.
How we do that?
Cutting the advantages, because the advantage for me is like a ball in the ring.
It's just touch the ring, doesn't make a point.
How are you going to make a half point?
It's very hard to interpret what is really real and what is not.
It doesn't matter how many goals you try and hit the post.
The score is what matters, you know?
So a half point just creates a controversy and interpretation for the referee.
So it becomes a very confused way.
So back to the reality, you just go for clear points.
And also, another important thing is...
Give minus points for stalling positions.
What is a stalling position?
It's a position where you hold with the intention to preserve the position, to preserve the control of the dynamic of the fight.
You're stalling because you want to be in control by using what I call an anti-jiu-jitsu move, which prevents you from keeping action.
Because the idea is both engage and see who's the best, who's submit, who's passing, who's mounting, who's getting.
And sometimes people, to minimize that risk, they're kind of keeping the situation under control, a position they can control the sleeves, putting the leg, entangle it, so he's comfortable to...
To proceed until the point he needs to make a little advantage.
So this diminishes the effectiveness because this kind of strategy doesn't work in real life.
Yeah, but you can see easily who wants to progress and who wants to just control the position.
For this guy who don't want to progress, he will be...
I mean, you can know it.
I mean, in theory, maybe it's...
But if you see it, you can see who's just trying to minimize the action and try to wait for their opportunity, and the other one who's trying to make it happen, you know?
The point rules, system for tournaments, And we have the challenge rules for matchmaking like the Metamorris kind or any promoter who will try to do something like the baddest purple belt.
I mean, we're going to get into the better for the jiu-jitsu.
But for me, it's the same rules in case of a bracket.
So I don't feel like...
Both who kind of didn't submit should be disqualified because sometimes in the same bracket, two tough guys, they fight each other and they could not submit to each other.
So this guy advances and those two are disqualified.
So I don't think this is fair.
Somebody has to come in from this.
So the way I did is the first round goes full force.
And if the 20 minutes end or 30 minutes end, depends on the arrangement, after the 30 minutes you ask the guy, you want to fight?
The guy say yes.
And then you ask the guy, you want to fight?
Yes.
So it's another round.
So in the second round, we still don't have positive points.
But every time the guy put himself in a position and he start to defend himself without attempting to escape or giving the combat, just protecting or resting or whatever, the referee is going to say, hey man, keep going, acting or you're going to be penalized.
So we have negative points for diminishing of combativity.
So at the end of the second round, if we see, like, somebody with minus points, this one will be the loser, you know, because he displays less desire or less guess or less techniques to be on top of the competition.
So he's minus because he's defending all the time, he was tired or whatever, so he gets minus points and then...
In this new federation, in the same way we have the Master Council, we're going to have the Development Council, and you're going to be invited right now to be part, because I see people like...
You guys are not just know the deal, know the sport, but also has opinion to make.
And my idea is not to ride my rules in stone.
My idea is to follow the best pattern to create more effectiveness and more dynamic aspect for the sport.
So the Federation has this open heart and open eye and open ears to kind of make the best conclusions for the sport.
So all the rules can be changed.
Everything can be adapted to a better, more defined display of effectiveness.
I'm going to service to giving reference and giving guidance for the events.
But even though they don't do my rules, I will legitimize everybody and I will start to relate the records of every event, who won here, who won there, and I start to put everybody to become part of the same profile, the same mindset, and I will hammer the idea of why we don't do the best rules for Jiu-Jitsu.
Because I bet the champions today, many of them, they're going to say, oh, I don't like, I prefer to do this or that.
But I'm not here to educate those champions.
I'm here to educate 85% of the competitive community today who is still white and blue belt.
Those guys, they're being misled to understand the strategy of the game to get the medals, but they're losing effectiveness in real life.
So...
The change of rules, aside of the education aspect of the Federation, is very important.
How I see the service of the Federation in the educational level.
Because a lot of times, guys coming from the competitive background, from white to purple to brown and black, so they become tough competitors, sometimes champions, they become famous, then they open the school.
And as they open the school, They teach what they know.
Their techniques will make them feel champions.
So great.
But this is just like a percentage of what he's supposed to know to teach.
Because not everybody wants to go there to compete.
Not everybody has the skills and the toughness to engage in that kind of level of training.
I feel like jiu-jitsu is there to favor the community as a whole.
I feel like the instructor, he has to be knowledgeable about self-defense, about self-defense for women, about programs for kids, kids' class, and law enforcement.
So as the instructor becomes certified, I mean, I'm not going to validate all the skills, The instructors, all the black belts today.
I'm not going to say you don't deserve it, but I will suggest to them to get certified through the Federation, because they will get elements for their schools to become more efficient, retain more students, have better teaching programs, which are the core of effectiveness.
The other day I heard some black belts being asked for a student about self-defense.
He said, no, no, if you want to self-defense, you go to Grav Maga.
And I felt that this is just something that goes straight on my heart because for me the core of Jiu-Jitsu is self-defense.
If you don't know self-defense, basically you don't know Jiu-Jitsu.
You have to be ready to defend yourself from a slapping, from a hug, from a headlock, from whatever.
And if you don't have those concepts lined up, you become sometimes very tough, with tough years, with very good grip, endurance forever.
But you're still counting on your own physicality.
You cannot teach that for children or for women.
So by having the Federation presenting those courses and spreading this all over the world, The teacher will have much more elements to have more students, to have more knowledge to feed his students in different levels and make a different job with Jiu Jitsu.
Jiu Jitsu is losing effectiveness and we have to restore that by informing very well, by Understand the competition as a progressive thing to make you a better fighter, not to make a better competitor.
You know, if you're a competitor, sometimes a taekwondo guy, he's a great competitor, but he has nothing to do with real life.
I mean, you want to be a fighter.
Jiu-jitsu is something you learn to protect your honor, to protect your dignity, to represent, to fight, to make money in the cage, whatever your goals are.
Jiu Jitsu is there to support you in a very profound and deep cause which is effectiveness.
Sometimes a 10-minute fight, nothing happens, just two advantages.
That's terrible.
I mean, I don't expect to see this in a fight and nobody expects.
So, by changing rules, we increase effectiveness.
We create a more dynamic fight.
It's more interesting to see.
You know?
Nobody wants to see something boring.
And we create...
Under this concept, the possibility to unify the whole community, not only this particular association or this federation, but everybody in the same part.
And then, without taking anything from nobody, my vision is to create a worldwide circuit of jiu-jitsu, which represents The same thing, the ASP for surf or the ATT for tennis, which brings major players, like big sponsors and television for the sport.
So first is unified, try to unify the rules, try to create effectiveness, try to give a better condition for the teacher, for the school owner, for the independent promoter.
Because I cannot think about, okay, I'm going to start to make my own circus, and I don't validate nobody, it's just me, like other people do.
So that's a wrong way to unify and educate the community and our culture for the future.
What is unacceptable is that grip promotes only A cool-off situation.
I can grab anywhere I want if my intention is to progress.
If I start to say, okay, coming to me, coming to Papa, and I stay here waiting to waste your energy, and then when you make a mistake, I sweep you, that's kind of weak in your mindset, weak in your progressiveness, weak in your effectiveness.
But I already have, for example, next week, in the second and third, the Vulcan Open.
They will apply the new rules.
And it's all testing.
We're going to test the rules to see.
Because the idea is a positive, beneficial idea for the sport.
And if we need to adjust a little more and change, like I said, nothing is on the stone yet.
And we're going to allow the thing to, you know, hearing people and seeing the conclusions because the mission is very positive and the means will be adaptable.
You've seen jujitsu progress from the time you were a boy to what it is today.
I mean, it's got to be an amazing thing.
An amazing thing also to have taken part in those first initial invasion moments when you guys came and you, like, there's so many of the Gracie in action videos where, you know, Horian is battling with the karate guys and, you know, you're battling with judo guys and people that had no idea what jujitsu was.
I remember very clearly when I saw the first Ultimate Fighting Championship that I saw was number two.
They had a video tape that was out, and I watched it, and I watched Hoist win, and I remember thinking to myself, man, I didn't even know that there was anything like this out there.
I had no idea.
I had been in martial arts my whole life.
I had no idea that someone could do something like this.
So he sent me an invitation to participate in a Shoro competition.
And then they sent me a tape to see what the rules are about.
And I didn't like the rules, but I liked the locks.
So I started training the locks and I said, no, man, this is, I mean, there's no, I don't like it.
So, and then we start to immediately say, I don't want to do.
And then my ex-wife, much more calm, started to negotiate with the guys and started to say, but if we change the rules, so it was kind of...
Talk and talk and eventually they decide to change the rules for a new open rules like and then I advise the way supposed to be the rules so we create the new VALITUDO 94 and then When I signed the...
I mean, when I about to sign the contract, Horion called me and said, Hickson, what are you doing?
He said, yeah, man, I'd be invited to fight in Japan.
I said, no, you should not go because this goes against the family.
UFC is our game.
We should be in support of the family and stay here as Roy's coach.
I said, man, that's not exactly what I vision for myself because, I mean, I'm here being coach.
I get one penny.
You put a lot of dollars in your pocket.
You give me nothing.
I mean...
You give me some money for me to sit on the bench, we are in business, but if you give me nothing, the guys offer me a lot of money to go.
You don't even have to give me what they offer.
You just have to give me some.
I said, no, no, you should do it for the love of the fans.
I said, yeah, man, I love you guys, but you love me and you give me nothing.
How am I going to love you?
So I went to Japan and deal in my tank and started winning there.
And then I got my direction towards Japan, which was very good for me.
The community there, the education, the culture there was...
It was very, I mean, I feel like home.
And that's pretty much where I direct myself, my career, my end of my career to Japan.
But now Crown is back to see what's going to happen.
Hordeon created a very awkward situation, you know, and was a kind of little division, you know, so I was not appealing to go there and show my support to Hoist and be there just...
There was also the talk that Hoyce was a slender guy, he was younger, he wasn't as intimidating as you, and that it sort of accentuated the idea of Jiu Jitsu, that Jiu Jitsu was technique-based, whereas you're a scary guy.
You're a scary guy now, but you were a really scary guy then.
But I felt like my family will be completely unprotected and unsupported.
So I said, no, I don't care about the fight.
So I spent about two years to make the whole family feel good again.
And we all...
Regain strength and happiness again.
So, after that, I started to get a free agent for a couple of years.
We tried to make something closer to what I have, but the whole business itself in Japan, the fact that Sakuraba lost for Vanderlei and things like that, diminished that kind of huge purse.
And then I felt like, no, I just want to fight if it's that much.
So I started to be very resistant about my next fight, some opportunities, but I kind of pushed away.
And to the point, in 2008, I was already moved back to Brazil for a while.
A guy from Texas invited me to compete in a new event and pulled me to fight feather.
And I was looking for that, but I had a little injury on my hip.
And until I be able to feel good to train, I could not sign.
And because he has a deadline in terms of promotion and such, I could not sign without having 100% confidence because if I sign, I will fight.
I'm not going to...
And I feel I have the time I want to get.
So I said, you know what?
I don't want it.
And in my heart, I went to the beach and said, thank you, God, for everything I have.
I'm out.
So I stopped competing.
Not exactly the way I want, but I felt like I have to respect God's decision.
And I just don't want to just jeopardize my life properly.
For the money, you know.
Okay, the guy put me money, I go there.
So I feel like I have to go to represent Jiu Jitsu.
Either I go 100% or, you know, I hope somebody else coming.
I always visualizing myself against the number one.
You know, I could not even think about so...
At one point it was Coleman, the other point was, you know, I mean, you name it, the champions.
And then Fedor gets a rise and makes like a big expression.
So I could not think about the other guy to represent Jiu Jitsu.
You know, I have always true vision of that.
But the set of rules are different.
At the time, we could express technique with more because we had time.
Somebody asked me, oh yeah, you have only a few fights in MMA. I said, no, I never fought MMA. I always fought valetudo because MMA is a different animal.
You go there for three rounds, five minutes, It's better to have offensive techniques than defensive techniques.
The defense is not going to do good for you.
It's going to do good if you have at least one round 10 minutes and then another.
So if you have, like, my fights are endless rounds of 15 minutes.
It's endless rounds of 5 minutes.
So in that way, you can prepare yourself for a different strategy.
You know, you have to follow...
the movements and you cannot just go all the way empty your gas and then fill up and empty again because you know if you empty your gas in the wrong time you're in trouble So all the technique and stretching your gas and be calm and finding comfortable positions, those are stripped right now.
Now it becomes a very extreme, a very physical.
You see athletes in the same weight division, but a guy who fights in the 155 walks around with 180, 185. So the technology on the sport today is a huge thing, the physicality.
That's why technique is only a piece of it.
You know, what Krohn does today is not only training Jiu Jitsu and become comfortable in the skills.
He's training like a dog and all the elements he can do to become athletic and explosive and physical and going to lost weight like everybody else.
Plus...
The technique, which I feel at one point will be the edge he needs to make the difference.
And they go to the tiebreak and start again and the advantage.
It was unbelievable.
So if you're passionate about tennis...
Sometimes the game can be like 45 minutes.
Sometimes it can be a couple of hours.
Because you're there in the action.
So for me...
When we're talking about engagement...
We're talking about...
I mean...
The best one out there.
And when I see a fight after 15 minutes...
Because somebody punched once...
Or fell on top...
Or just gave a throw...
Both guys stand up.
They both desire.
And then the time is over.
Who wants the fight?
In my opinion, supposed to be a draw.
Because how the guy can win just because one more point?
The guys are warriors.
The guys are willing to go.
So, it's always like halfway to what's supposed to be.
You know, because, okay, you have to decide by points.
Okay, so, I mean, it's hard because, you know, sometimes the guy even have the best of it.
But that doesn't guarantee if the fight goes longer, if it's still that, because toughness, resilience, and heart, and technique, they all going to pay, in one point, going to pay a big situation, you know?
So, for me, not the rules today in the UFC and such, doesn't translate perfectly.
The best guy out there.
Translates the most agile, the most tough, the one who connect first, you know, because sometimes the fight can be either way.
Whoever connects first, whoever makes the first, can win.
So, it's kind of hard to evaluate.
But if you put two guys in the cage, and okay, man.
Whoever gets out first is the winner.
And that's a different animal because you have to be technical, you have to be patient, you have to be...
So, you know, I can see...
First is the expectation.
It's all in the...
How Crohn is going to do.
But if it confirms what I believe can be done, eventually...
I feel like Krohn will be comfortable to challenge anyone for a no-time limit fight.
Because, I mean, I don't care if it's Velasquez, I don't care if it's John Jones.
If Krohn do what he has to do, with the time he has to do, I believe on him.
Like, I believe myself.
If I have the health today and the physicality I like to have, I mean, I don't see a guy, just because he's winning on the cage, he can win me.
Because I don't see the opportunities happen on the cage, I'm not going to give those opportunities.
So, it's hard to say, but, you know, the weight division doesn't make too much difference for me if I have the time to cook and slow burn.
But if the things kind of...
If even in my weight division, 80 kilos, for example, if I'm going to fight a guy with 95 kilos and make a technology...
So I'm going to fight a different monster in five minutes rounds?
So then that's kind of unbalanced now based on the extreme aspect of the sport, the physicality of the sport, and the technique that has to be applied.
And in a fight, they're just two guys going at each other.
And I agree that there's many, many, many fights where a guy win a 10-9 round, and another guy win the other 10-9 round, and then one guy win the final round, maybe 10-9.
I mean, sometimes beautiful knockouts, but sometimes, you know, it's just, you know, too much strength, too much physicality, and every time he goes to the floor, the guy immediately stands up because if he knows, if he stays on the ground, he's losing time and he's not going to be able to capitalize because the time is not as long as enough.
So that's kind of, you know, a gray area.
It doesn't have the appeal for me to see a good...
Because once you know how to defend, like arm lock.
You're becoming available for ground and pound.
So if the guy is completely safe on not getting caught in the triangle, your attempts of techniques are kind of diminishing your capacity to survive and to defend yourself.
So you're attacking techniques from the bottom, but you're still on the reach.
The issue though that if someone can disengage, if you're on your back and you're trying to not clinch and not hold on to him, you're a jiu-jitsu practitioner, the guy can just disengage.
If he's on me, I will sweep him, I will be on his back in no time.
If he's away from me, if he wants to look for distance, I have to understand that and respect that and protect myself to don't get pounded.
You know?
And that process of, okay, I don't want to engage, he's moving back, and then you stand up.
In all this process, a lot of things happen.
What is important for a jiu-jitsu fighter is know everything about the anti-game of the striker.
I don't make Krone, I don't try to make Krone a good striker.
I want to make him comfortable to in and out.
I want to make very comfortable to fight inside with knees and elbows, you know, be dangerous inside, be comfortable on top, and be very comfortable on the bottom.
And the action, man.
Because it's a lot of...
Even though in those five minutes fight, it's a lot of action.
I mean, it's a lot of stalling.
It's a lot of...
It's a lot of disengaged.
I mean, they engage a little bit and then they separate.
And okay, now let's think.
Let's see who's fighting.
It's hard to see a guy who just goes like...
And I feel like the great element, the great strategy of Krohn is going to keep a consistent pressure.
That means he's not going to be studying or in a distance where the striker feels like waiting.
He's going to be either two out or two in.
And then once he's in, let's fight in fight, let's fight like, you know, elbows, whatever.
And then immediately the fight goes to the ground, no matter if it's on top or on the bottom.
But it all started off when I was on this quest to put together the ultimate guard for MMA. Because I was seeing too many guys just get beat up in the guard.
But Jiu Jitsu is an animal that has never stopped to grow.
And one day I was comfortably in California watching a fight in Brazil and then I saw an eight men tournament where Fabio Gurgel was fighting Mark Kerr and Mark Kerr was the first time I saw him fighting.
He went to the finals with Fabio and I knew Fabio.
I trained with him.
He's a brother.
And I saw what he did with Fabio.
Like stay on top, ground and pound and smashing the elbow on his face.
After Fabio's tooth getting to his arm.
And it's like next day he was all inflamed, arm, and he would go into the airplane like this.
He may almost lose the arm because then they give antibody.
We're never.
But anyway, after I saw that fight and the lack of options, Fabio was there.
Next day in the morning, I wake up.
I call my son, Hoxon.
He's 10 to 11 years old, about 110 pounds.
I said, Hoxon, come here.
And then I went to the garage on my mats.
I said, lay down.
Put him lay down and I try to represent the same position because the size weight is almost the same from Fabio Gurgel to Marquer than me for Rochson.
So I kind of immediately put him in Fabio's position and I put myself in Marquer position and then I start to analyze his position and say, Rochson, Do this, do that.
Move a little more this way.
So we're not fighting, but I try to find him a position for him to be comfortable.
And I spend about 45-50 minutes searching, studying with him because I like that kind of unproportional size.
When I finish that section, I reinvent myself in terms of what I'm going to do if I have to fight Marquer tomorrow.
Because I was satisfied with the angles I could put hocks on in order to resist my leverage, my angles, what exactly I saw in the day before.
So that means, from one day to another, I kind of...
Focus myself and fix the problem I saw with Fabio.
And at that point, I felt like, okay, I'm fixed now.
He has to use the element of, as I approach to getting better position, the bottom guy has to hit because if you don't strike, you don't make the guy kind of go back.
So it's a combination between fighting.
In Brazil, we have two different names.
When you brawl and when you fight.
Fight is more like a sportive.
And when you brawl, you're like, just do whatever.
So, technically speaking, when somebody wants to attack me as a brawler, I don't want to brawl back.
I want to be technical and survive and be comfortable.
And soon he starts to say, I cannot have anything here.
Let me be technical to see if I can advance.
And that's the time I will brawl against him and make him get confused.
So, I have to change strategies as he comes.
If he comes in to be a fighter, I will be aggressive, I will be mean.
If he come in to be a brawler, I will be technical and I will be comfortable.
So that kind of sense of change gives a perspective for the bottom guy to be on edge, to be on top of the offense.
You know, as a fan, as a fan of jiu-jitsu and a fan of mixed martial arts and Valley Tudor, man, I just wish you had had those opportunities to face those guys.
Now, like I said, when I was trying to figure out the best MMA guard, I was looking at you, I was looking at Hickson, grabbing the overhook, but the one thing I knew is...
If that's the defensive posture, this is what I was thinking.
So I thought, well, okay, that has to be the stance.
So we have to...
Do we create offense from that stance?
So the defense is first, and do we have offense from the overhook?
And my instructor, Jean-Jacques Machado, he is one of the only guys I know of, out of all the top jiu-jitsu guys, that his whole game is based on the overhook and not grabbing the sleeves because his left hand, he was born without fingers.
So no matter what, whether it was gi or no gi, he needed that overhook because he couldn't control the sleeves.
So his overhook game was translated to his students, me included.
So I was always looking for the overhook because Jean-Jacques was my master.
And then when he got invited to Abu Dhabi, before he went to Abu Dhabi, there was a lot of legends there, a lot of jiu-jitsu legends that were going to Abu Dhabi.
And without the gi, there was no offense.
There was a lot of boring matches.
But Jean-Jacques shows up and he...
It just rises above everybody.
If you watch what Jean-Jacques did in Abu Dhabi, his left arm didn't change without a gi.
He's like, no, gi, I'm still going to grab that overhook anyways.
Everybody else was lost because they were used to their fighting stance.
Their guard fighting stance was sleeve, collar, collar, sleeve.
So without the gi, they had to change everything and they weren't used to it.
They didn't have any offense from there.
So to me, I took what you and Henzo were doing with the overhook and the controlling, but that's how Jean-Jacques fights with the overhook.
So all his sweeps, Jean-Jacques, look at all his sweeps in Abu Dhabi.
He's throwing people around.
His first year, he submitted everybody.
He was like the first Marcelo Garcia.
Everybody was freaked out.
Like, how is this guy doing it?
They didn't even understand it.
But to me, it was like, it was because his game didn't change.
When he's training in the Gi, he's training for Abu Dhabi.
The people that were training in the Gi before, they weren't training for Abu Dhabi.
He was, because it was all overhook.
He was sweeping wrestlers, all the...
Carl Uno, he was all over these guys.
So for me, that overhook, not as...
For Jean-Jacques, that overhook is important for grappling, not even for Valetudo.
So if he did Valetudo, or someone with that style guard did Valetudo, the overhook game...
Automatically takes away the punch and he has offense from that style too.
So for me that became the basis and the focus for the ultimate MMA guard was to master the overhook like Jean-Jacques.
Not only just defend, but put those butterflies in and try to sweep or set up triangles.
Like you have an overhook, you sweep, he bases, you grab that wrist, boom, triangle.
I thought that was based on what you and Hanzo did and Jean-Jacques style because it was like a blessing in disguise, him born without fingers.
It was a blessing in disguise.
He's an Abu Dhabi legend.
Everybody looks at Jean-Jacques as Yoda.
Like, how did you come into Abu Dhabi and finish everybody?
To me, it was just that overhook game.
He didn't really have to change much of his game.
So that's how Marcelo Garcia, that's his philosophy too.
His philosophy is, and he said this in interviews, that If you can't do it, if there's a gi technique that you can't do no gi, throw it out.
Only focus on the techniques that are going to translate to no gi.
So that way, when you're practicing the gi, you're actually practicing no gi as well.
So Marcello is very against being reliant too much on the collar and too much on the sleeve.
He stays away from that because even takedowns, he doesn't want to do judo takedowns because no gi, they're not going to work as much.
He wants to do...
Take down in the gi that translate no gi.
So that's just the conclusions that I came to.
That's how I train my fighters that are fighting in MMA. And it all started with watching you and Henzo.
Yes, I completely feel like that's a good standard position because you have to have a control and stuff.
But the evolutionary process brought other kinds of guards, you know?
And I can also find my comfortable those days and show.
A more spacey guard, more like towards my father's guard was because he was a very weak guy, always handled big guys, and he don't have like this kind of strength or control over his opponents.
So he was more like hip movements and using the ankles, using the foot, you know, it's more like a very lethal from the bottom, allowing the guy to get lost.
Oh, that's interesting because, you know, she will have the preparation, the mindset, the heavy hands, and also the skill to become a competitor for Honda, I think.
It's not a flake, or it's not a luck, or it's not, oh, you learn, come here, let me show you how to defend the arm lock, and now you go, you're ready to fight.
It's not like that, you know?
So, anyone in the mixed martial arts coming from a background, because they see mixed martial arts as a good exposure, as a good situation to make money, to make...
So, they come in with an average background to try, you know, their best.
They sometimes have it from the wrestling family and then learn some box, some jiu-jitsu, some defense and go.
They come from the judo and go.
They come from the jiu-jitsu and go and learn a little bit here and there.
But very few are like Randy Couture, which is already an established champion, like Coleman.
Guys who have defined their lives in one thing, and then they breed to another, but they have already the sense of, you know, they believe in themselves, they can capitalize on the mistakes, they forward forever, so...
Those things, you know, you don't buy it on the...
Yeah, the intensity that Ronda Rousey brings to training, just to life itself, is very difficult to replicate and that it has, it resonates throughout everything she does.
Every morning, every time I work out and go to the gym, I warm up on the Stairmaster and I just go ADCC Marcelo Garcia or whoever.
And I just want to warm up and watch people do Jiu Jitsu at a high level and that just gets my blood boiling.
I just want to go lift weights, right?
I'm watching Marcelo and Krohn, and man, recently, and I haven't watched it in a while, but man, I'm so used to Marcelo just going through everybody.
Marcelo just crushes.
He is unbelievable what he does.
People go to his gym, he's like, hey, you can come to my gym, I'll roll with you, but we're going to videotape it and we're going to put it on the internet.
Deal?
And everyone that goes is like, oh man, they're walking into the slaughterhouse, right?
He said, oh, it was tough, you know, I almost passed out, and then, but Krohn, because he was going in the end of the mat, the first, like, the round, he was trying to save himself for the next round, so he put pressure, and then he kind of said that, I kind of just tried to hold instead, keep putting all my power, so, and then, I mean, nothing happened, and The guy kind of survived and he kind of won.
That's the one thing Jean-Jacques would tell me because training for Jean-Jacques obviously trained me for Metamorris and we would talk about Krohn and Jean-Jacques said, I asked Jean-Jacques what is Krohn's best technique?
He goes, man that guillotine He wraps his arms around your head.
He's got an incredible squeeze.
The guillotine used to be a strongman move.
I used to think, even the arm and guillotine, that's a strongman.
I never got into guillotines, but over the last 10-15 years, they've gotten so technical.
You know, including all the arm and chokes, like the darts and the Japanese necktie, the arm and guillotine, the different grips, all these different neck cranks.
And it came sort of from a wrestling three-quarter Nelson technique that was used to flip people over.
And then I think it was Dave Terrell...
Showed it to Joe Darcy, and then Mark Lehman started calling it Joe Darcy because he learned from Joe Darcy, but he actually, I don't know, John Danaher, there's a whole story, but the name stuck to Darcy.
My legs are not too long, so I have to pick the perfect positions to do, but I started to get familiar with it.
It's hard to say where I come from, but I have my open mind, like the Eric Postle situation with the new...
I always have an open mind to accept, to embrace things that are functional.
You know, and discard everything which I don't like.
It's not about theory.
It's about effectiveness.
It's about results.
It's about to feel comfortable there.
So anything I see, no matter if it's from Bruce Lee or from any wrestler or Catch Catch Con, if I see and I like it, I'm going to go and experiment immediately because I just add to my arsenal.
That's the concept.
Which leads to development, to progression and to success.
Oh, just when I finished the Valetudo 95, it was a legit eight-man tournament, and I won.
It started, like the WWF, like the UFO in Japan was very strong with pro wrestling, like big magazines, like a huge Japanese love pro wrestling.
So, and then based on that kind of exposure of this new event, The champion of the wrestling association, one of the champions of the UFO, called Takada, starts talking.
Oh, I like to fight him.
They ask him and they start talking like all the pro wrestlers talk.
I gotta kick his ass, this and that.
Start talking, a lot of gossip.
And at this point, I'm back to LA. Maybe after two or three months of this kind of talking around my name forever, some guy, one of the friends I have in Japan, they come and say, Mr. Gracie, They're talking a lot about you, and you should have an official answer for that.
You know, you cannot just let...
Because people start thinking you're afraid.
So you have to have an official answer.
So I said, okay.
So I make a letter stating I never will fight on their ring because they're not legit.
They fix fights.
So that's against my...
If you want to come and fight in my event, like...
Not mine, but the event I fought in the Japan Open.
He was welcome to come and we want to face each other for sure.
If in other cases, we can fight even on the street.
But I'm not there to fight on his event because that will jeopardize my real fighter status.
So with this being said, maybe a few weeks later, Takada went out of the gossip and then Anjo showed up in the magazine and started saying he will come into LA to beat me up.
He will do this because he said, oh, he's going to fight for free, so I'm going to dare to fight, to kick.
And then the guy came and said, hey, Mr. Angel said he's coming, he said this.
I said, man, I cannot lose my sleep based on just speculations.
He said when he came, no, he didn't say, okay, so I'm going to keep my life.
And if he show up, okay, he show up.
So the past maybe couple of weeks or so, even more, one day I was at home in the morning, My assistant at the school called me and said, Hickson, some guys here, some Japanese guys are here waiting for you, want to talk to you.
And immediately I figured out could be that situation.
So I put my camera in my hand.
Hickson wants to come in with me.
He was about 11 years old.
I was going back.
Driving my car, taping my hands because I was putting tape in my hands as I was driving on the freeway.
When I arrived, I saw a van full up with photographers outside.
I passed through my parking lot and I saw a camera full of Japanese with cameras, full of reporters inside.
So I went through.
When I got into school, I saw a huge, tall Japanese guy, very well-dressed, and a lady.
And I immediately, hey, how are you?
Oh, Mr. Gracie, I'm the president of the UFO Association.
I come here to officially invite you to participate in a fight in Japan.
I said, man, are you crazy?
I told you I don't want to fight in Japan and under your association.
And then when I kind of deflect the direction, I said, yeah, but you also said you fight for free, for your honor.
I said, yes.
I'm here to fight.
I expect fighting, but you coming to negotiate?
No, no, no, but the fighter is outside.
Can he come in?
I said, yes, he can come in.
So I tell my student to say, hey, you stay on the door, let the lady with the fighter come in, but don't let the reporters come in.
Block everybody outside.
I didn't know what's going to happen.
I don't want to press.
So as Anjo came in with an ugly face and attitude and stuff, I immediately asked my instructor, said, Limão, grab the waiver and tell him to sign.
It's like if I get hurt, whatever, those waivers.
So he looked at the waiver with an ugly face and then spoke with his guy in Japanese.
And then the Japanese guy said, Mr. Gracie, You mean, if he don't sign, you don't fight?
Immediately, I felt like, if I say, yeah, he has to sign, they may leave, and they're going to come in with all the excuses.
Oh, he chickened out, whatever.
I immediately said, no, forget the paper.
If you come in to fight, let's fight.
Forget the bureaucracy.
Let's make something here more simple.
So, in the end, he came into the ring, and we started fighting.
Immediately, I felt his intention to hit me.
Immediately, I clinched, put him on the ground, and started to punch.
He turned back, but different than a normal event where just putting him to sleep or whatever.
In that particular case, I had to display, showcase his punishment.
So I was not happy just to put him to sleep.
So I started to hit him with the elbow, expecting him to turn.
Eventually he turned, and I punched him in the face until I broke his nose and made it all bleed, all cut up.
And at that point, when I felt like he was just smashed enough, He turned again backwards and I put him to sleep.
And then I let him sleep in his own blood.
And then I said to the press, okay, now let them in.
So when the press came in, saw him passing out, waking up with the guy trying to hide his face from the pictures.
And the guy is all dizzy, waking up, all blood, you know, a big, big mass of blood on the floor and stuff.
In the crowd, my students kind of lift me up.
My t-shirt is all bloody and I kind of hang on the wall like a trophy and stuff and we're all yelling.
So the guy stood up and left.
And then like three or four days later, Andrew came back to me.
And at my school, I was teaching.
He came with a package and said, oh, I like to talk.
He was still like all bruise and stuff.
He said, yeah, I like to apologize.
And I like to give you this as a gift.
And he gave me a samurai helmet.
And then he left to Japan.
And when he got there, he said to the crowd, he was jumped.
You know, I was jumped.
The guys jumped me.
Because the press didn't saw.
And then I get my assistant, my Japanese guy who's working with me in the Valetudo 95, and I said, listen, Yuri, you take this tape, you go to Japan, Make a press conference.
Display.
Don't make one copy.
Nothing.
Make sure.
No, no.
So go there.
Make.
Show the press.
And come back.
And bring this back.
Okay.
So he went.
Make the press conference.
And then my reputation.
When they saw it was like a fair fight.
And what happened.
My reputation went to the roof.
And, you know, it's just a big step for me in the publicity, because I capitalized on all the wrestling publicity, which is national in Japan.
So, and then my next fight eventually was with Takada.
He accepted the fight and made an official fight, and then we created the Pride.
Yeah, they asked me if I want to fight Takada and for that they want to create a new event.
I said yes, I fight him and then we discussed numbers and in order to make a good rule I help in the rules because, you know, I introduce the gloves and the mixed martial arts.
We have to put gloves because without gloves it can be too bloody.
We have to cut headbutts and stuff.
So I make like a draw of The backbone of what could be.
And then from that, they start the Pride.
I fought the Pride 1, the Pride 4, and then the Pride becomes like huge in Japan.
And then because they have a little involvement with the Yakuza, the sponsors they have, Fuji TV, like pull it off, and they're getting problems to the payroll, which is huge.
They have maybe 50 top athletes making a lot of money.
So they could not handle.
And then UFC come and take over and get all the footage and the fighters.
The people that were running Pride were starting another organization while they were working for the UFC. So they were working for the UFC, running the Pride offices for the UFC in Japan, but then they were running their other organizations.
There's a classic match, or not a match, fight that's on video, it might be on YouTube, with Hugo Duarte, old Luta Libre guy on the beach where you guys are fighting.
Okay, let's make this the last tale, alright guys?
Because if not, we're going to talk forever here about things from the past.
I'd love to talk about present.
But anyway, it was a great time because at this point Marco Rua was just finishing fight Fernando Pinduca in an event after my second fight of Zulu in Rio.
The jiu-jitsu community has a little friction with the luta-livre community.
So they set up a fight between Marcelo Bering against Fabio Molina, Renan against Eugenio Tadeo, and then Pinduca against Marco Rua.
And they draw.
And after that draw, Marco Rua creates a good status of being a great fighter, as it is.
He's a good, you know, tough guy.
And the gossip starts to become like, oh, and then people may ask him, what about Hickson?
So, in the kind of small world, is a position where Marco Rua is as willing to fight me.
And I also, of course, willing to fight him, but I don't want to wait Or give him the reputation where I challenge him.
It's not the case.
He was just...
I was already famous, established.
He was already coming up, like, just make a good fight.
So, to make things more simple...
My father, myself, Marcelo and Sergio, my best friend, we went to his school in the night time.
He had maybe 50 guys training, all without gear, they're all tough, they all have a lot of pumping, a lot of iron, so they're all big guys, you know?
So I went to his place, said, Ruaz, I'd like to talk to you.
So he came in to me, I said, hey man, I heard you.
You're showing desire to fight me, so I like to fight you anytime you want, regardless.
Let's do it.
If you want to do now, you can do tomorrow, whatever.
And he looked at me and said, yeah, but it's not like that.
If you challenge me, I may accept, but I need four months to train.
I said, man, you're crazy.
You think, like...
I use other names, but it's like...
You think the Lakers will challenge a college basketball team from...
So when this conversation starts to become a little...
My dad coming as a mediator and said, hey guys, don't want to discuss.
Let's make a list.
If somebody wants to fight Higgs, let's make a list.
And then eventually, you guys can fight.
And then Hugo from the back, yeah, you can put my name on that list.
And first time I saw Hugo in my life, and I look at him and said, yeah, man, you tell me...
This is not a, because it has a game, a gambling in Brazil, like a popular game, not official, but unofficial game called Jogo do Bicho, means game of the animals.
You put a name, a number, like 24 is the deer.
So a guy put $1, and if he wins, he gets maybe $50, something very popular, in every corner has this kind of underground game.
And I said to him, this is not a game of animals, man.
This is just a serious business.
You don't have to put your name in the list.
If you want to fight, let's fight right now.
And the guy kind of got me a little confused.
And nothing happened.
And then we decided to leave.
So we left.
After that...
The whole gospel, every corner.
I heard Ugo was training to fight you.
Ugo, Ugo, Ugo, Ugo, Ugo.
Start talking about Ugo, Ugo, Ugo, Ugo.
And I felt like this has to have an end, you know?
Another guy I could not challenge officially because he's a nobody.
But he's a guy, if I just disregard, he's something who's going to be against me too because I know he has the potential.
He's a fighter.
He just don't have the name.
But he's a legit tough guy.
So, based on that, I could not just ignore, and I could not challenge him officially.
So, I have to do something in between, which fight him on the street.
So, we decided to find, okay, let's make a profile, where he goes, what beach he goes, where he walks about.
So, we decided, oh, he goes on this beach, which is a very popular beach in Rio.
Every Saturday, Sunday, he's there.
Okay, so, next Sunday, we're going to be there, Saturday.
So I was at this point separate from my relationship.
I was living like a single in Rio and that's very hard to do because a lot of options.
So I was not concerned about the fight at all.
I was no sleep on the Monday, Tuesday, like just going party a lot.
Wake up on Wednesday kind of afternoon, walk on the street.
Close to my neighborhood.
And then I saw a friend of mine who's always in the gossip, said, hey, and as I leaving home, I said, I think I'm going to postpone Hugo's fight for the following week.
I don't think it's going to be a good idea because, man, I'm just too much party.
When I get on the street, man, the first guy I saw, it was this, my friend, Bauru, who's just coming and said, man, you should see, oh, everybody's prepared, everybody talking about the fight will be great, they're all waiting, they all will be there.
And I say, oh my God, no postponement anymore.
I have to go regardless, so...
So as I approach the weekend, I try to just recover, sleep, eat well, but still, like, not enough.
Anyway, Saturday morning, we're all gathering in the Gracie Barra Academy, which is close to the neighborhood, and we're gathering, like, the students, because we have to have a team to To be there, you know, to hold and whatever.
So it's about 50 to 60 guys there, and we all kind of strategizing.
Okay, you guys make this and that.
And then my son was seven years old, all pumping up.
And as I approach the school, because they're coming from a different neighborhood walking, and one of the guys, like Eugenio Tadeu, was a black guy who lives in a ghetto.
As they approach, they come in walking maybe three or four miles, you know, something like that, a different neighborhood.
So as they come in, like, it's not only fighters, it's bad guys, guys with like all the eyes, I mean, only the uncovered eyes with...
With guns, with knives, with bottle break.
So it's a lot of convulsions, a lot of energy, bad energy, not coming from a real fight situation, but it's more like a street dangerous.
So as I approach and I'm coming through the crowd, which is already controlling maybe two-thirds of the street, which is passing cars, just could not pass in cars anymore, just like, just the car passing a very fine line.
It's a big crowd in front of the school.
So I went through with the bike, When I come up to the school, he's already coming down with my father, the new son, which is his instructor, other guys, they're coming down.
And we kind of crush each other in the middle of the stairs.
I said, okay, man, let's go down, let's talk.
So we went down to the parking lot and like crowded, maybe 20 guys from my school.
One guy has a weapon, but the other guys maybe five or six, ten guns and knives.
I mean, it's a bad, bad weather, you know?
So before I start the fight, I said, Hugo, I'd like to talk to you.
Come over.
Let's talk.
Let's walk to the backyard here.
So my father, myself, Denilson, Heuler, and Eugenio Tadeu, we kind of move away from the crowd to like a backyard.
And I said, man, I want to talk to you something very important.
Listen.
I fought to you last week as a man, and I come here and I respect you as a fighter to challenge me to rematch.
So all this is cool, regardless who win, who lost.
But if somebody touched the fight before the fight is over, because you bring here a lot of people without no martial arts code.
So if somebody touched the fight before it's over, I guarantee you, man, you wake up on the ditch.
And he said, no, no, it's a man to man.
Okay, let's go back.
Let's talk.
So we went back to the crowd.
They make an arena.
People make a circle.
And it was on the concrete.
And I felt, when we start, I felt like his mentor or whatever, supposed to say to him, hey man, the first fight last week, you engage too quickly, you give the grappling too quickly, you should punch him in the face.
So I felt a completely different animal because he was already trying to, by his approach, his position, the way he moves, I felt like he wants to punch me.
Different than was before.
And I kind of make myself like a vebo.
I kind of play dummy, you know.
I play kind of statue.
And he come and punch me right there.
I deflected very quick.
Grab him around the waist like high.
Make a little hip movement and put him horizontal and throw him on the concrete.
So he fell flat on the concrete.
I try to mount.
He escaped.
I move like to the other side and mount again.
And I end up by mounting on him like with 15 maybe 20 seconds.
I just mounted on him.
I punched.
He covered up.
And I could not punch anymore.
So I get his everything and bang his head against the concrete a few times.
You know, he kind of banged the head on the floor.
And then he softened up a little bit.
I give him a couple of punches.
He kind of quit immediately.
Stop, stop, stop.
For me, it was not exactly the well done job because it was just too quick.
And he quit very quickly.
So I want to do something else, but the crowd was already trying to...
It's too much.
I said, if I insist here after his ask for mercy, it can jeopardize the whole thing.
So even though I was not happy, I stood up.
And he stood up and he said, yeah, man, I'm happy.
I'm satisfied now.
You really demand.
Shake hands.
I said, yeah, man, you have a very valuable guy too.
So I wanted to ask you something about what's going on today in MMA. There's like Nick Diaz and there's been a bunch of guys that have been suspended and fined for having cannabis in their system.
And there's big controversy because in a lot of states, now it's 23 states in the United States where it's legal now.
So how do you feel about banning cannabis as a performance enhancer?
So, at that point, I feel like we have to obey the law, you know?
And if some kind of drugs are forbidden by law for you to become a pro athlete, you have to obey that if you're in that career.
What you do in your life...
You know, it has to be respected, has to be, you know, whatever.
But what's the rules for MMA? I mean, I try to input in the jiu-jitsu the anti-doping, you know, because you see guys in the same way division, but one guy has 10 times more endurance, 10 times more power, 10 times whatever.
So the guy, you know, has addictive, like he has an extra enhancement.
So, we have to balance this in order to make a fair sport.
How much the cannabis affects the athlete, I'm not sure.
But I know others like steroids or hormones, those are proving.
So, whatever is being proved against using the cannabis for...
Fighting for sports activities if it's proved this kind of support of I mean the drug use can be enhancing some maybe we cut I don't know it's up to the real problem is it's it's there they're testing people for something that stays in your body for a long time after it's psychoactive so if you took cannabis like a week before your fight I You're not going to be high when you're fighting, but it's still going to be in your system, so you're still going to be penalized for something that has nothing to do with it.
Well, that's a step in the right direction, I think.
Now, as far as performance enhancing, surfing is a serious sport that requires serious technique, lots of hours.
And generally, you hear that surfers will be under the influence of cannabis while they're surfing.
Wouldn't it, if it makes your reflexes, some people believe that it dulls your reflexes, how can surfers Be under the influence of cannabis and ride a 25-foot wave.
Right now, I'm back to teaching Krohn's place because I wanted to have him more distressed with how the academy goes.
So I picked two times a week to teach there, giving self-defense classes.
At this point, before that, I was doing seminars once a month, at the most once, twice every couple of months.
To make my living and also because I feel like the best things in life, money cannot buy.
And I feel like the quality of my meals, the way I eat, the way my relationship, my sleep, those are very, very valuable assets, you know, plus the time I have to do things I love to do.
That's kind of when I feel like I'm happy enough to be my best at service, because I always try to be at service, helping somebody with jiu-jitsu, with knowledge, with nutrition, with breathing.
It's not about the price, it's about the service.
And then I put my head and said, yeah, I have a nice day, I make a good speech with Joe Hogan, I have a nice talk with Ed Bravo, it was a great day.
So somehow, in a purpose for the Federation, so I always try to be positive, but I have no schedule fixed like I have to wake up, go to, no.
Because at this point, I create a lifestyle which makes me feel good to engage in different elements like this Federation now and having classes on Crohn's and be here, to be full of energy,
you know, because Sometimes you don't notice, but based on your commitments, your obligation, you're becoming more like a robot and you lose the perspective of what you need to be at your best.
And if you lose that perspective, even though you're still doing your routine, sometimes you're just minus.
You're just 80, 70, 60% of what you should be.
So you're not going to be the best husband, you're not going to be the best father, the best employer, the best employee.
You just, you know, it's just...
So at this point, I feel like I have to be at my best physically.
If I feel like I have to stretch, I'm going to stretch, breathe, joke, have fun, listen, party, whatever.
You know, and then when I feel like, man, I'm so happy, I could not eat.
So, and then I can go and do my service, you know, and, you know, because the window of life is smaller.
Now, for me, it becomes, I don't have too much time.
So, I don't waste time to do what people expect from me.
I try to do things that are really relevant to my soul, like this Federation now.
When I dream, I don't dream small.
I dream like I make a very space for the biggest dream I can dream.
And I see that level of need for the community and the level of Of position I have to be the reference for that shift in the direction of our culture and our knowledge, I feel like I could not be more motivated, more happy to engage on this.
And that's always what life is about.
Just do your best and be excited, be motivated to the next day.
There's such a refreshing attitude, your attitude, your philosophy on life.
Because I think it's very easy, and I've trapped myself in it sometimes, where you concentrate too much on making money, concentrate too much on being ambitious, and you forget the quality of life.
Your focus is almost entirely on your quality of life.
So that's a very essential thing which sometimes slips through people's fingers and the priorities and the daily payments.
So I put you in a role where I feel like If you tell me in the past, what's the courage, what's the opposite of courage, I'm going to say cowardness.
Because either you're tough enough to challenge and to fight, or then you're a coward and you chicken out.
So that, in the past, was like the opposite of courage.
It's very hard to measure this in those days.
And I believe the opposite of courage today is conformity.
You know, as people get conformed.
Oh, I don't like my wife the way I used to like, but I'm never going to divorce because I'm afraid to lose my house.
Or the situation is so established, so I don't like this job, but I'm going to keep here because it's better than his.
So, in other hands, if you get caught on that kind of compromise to maintain because you're afraid to risk, Let's keep you like one step behind from follow your heart, follow your ambition.
If you're 18 years old, you don't think twice.
The guy says, hey, let's go to Australia.
You think, okay, let's go, boom.
But when you're 50, you say, Australia, what are you going to do there?