Nick Griffin is the former leader of the British National Party, which the BBC would certainly have characterised as ‘far-right’. He prefers to describe himself as a Christian nationalist. Once Nick has sorted out his shirt and escaped from the dog house with his missus, he and James have a lively, wide-ranging chat on all manner of things: the joy of hitchhiking, Nick’s Cambridge boxing Blues, keeping goats in Shropshire, the surprise result of his Any Questions appearance, Tommy Robinson, Islam, civil war and the Offer That He Did Refuse. Nick’s substack is https://substack.com/@nickgriffin544956↓ ↓ ↓Tickets are now available for the James x Dick Christmas Show 2025on Saturday, 6th December. See website for details:https://www.jamesdelingpole.co.uk/Shop/?section=events#events↓ ↓ ↓Monetary Metals is providing a true alternative to saving and earning in dollars by making it possible to save AND EARN in gold and silver.Monetary Metals has been paying interest on gold and silver for over 8 years.Right now, accredited investors can earn 12% annual interest on silver, paid in silver in their latest silver bond offering. For example, if you have 1,000 ounces of silver in the deal, you receive 120 ounces of silver interest paid to your account in the first year.Go to the link in the description or head to https://monetary-metals.com/delingpole/ to learn more about how to participate and start earning a return on honest money again with Monetary Metals.↓ ↓ How environmentalists are killing the planet, destroying the economy and stealing your children’s future.
In Watermelons, an updated edition of his ground-breaking 2011 book, JD tells the shocking true story of how a handful of political activists, green campaigners, voodoo scientists and psychopathic billionaires teamed up to invent a fake crisis called ‘global warming’.This updated edition includes two new chapters which, like a geo-engineered flood, pour cold water on some of the original’s sunny optimism and provide new insights into the diabolical nature of the climate alarmists’ sinister master plan.Purchase Watermelons by James Delingpole here: https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk/Shop/↓ ↓ ↓
Buy James a Coffee at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jamesdelingpole
The official website of James Delingpole:https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk
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Welcome to the Delling Pod with me, James Dellingpole.
And as you can tell by my Christmas, not Christmas really, jumper, I'm going to talk to you about the excitement, the thrill of my forthcoming Dick and James Christmas special.
It's round about two weeks, a bit over two weeks to go before the party starts.
And I don't want you to be one of those people who misses out on what is undoubtedly one of the highlights of the year.
So many lovely people that you're going to adore if you don't know them already are going to be there in the adoring crowds watching me and Dick on stage and also watching the unregistered chickens of course beforehand.
And there's going to be some names and faces that you know.
Clive de Karl is going to be there with his magical chair and they're going to be people selling stuff that you want to buy on stools, you know, sort of magical potions, unguants and things like that.
And it's going to be fun.
I mean, obviously, I'm going to be good, Dick's going to be good, but you really come to these things to meet like-minded folks.
So get your tickets now.
I'm afraid to say that the evil Illuminati scumbag tickets, the VIP tickets as they were called before I changed the name, they've sold out.
But it doesn't matter.
I love you ordinary humble folk who just buy the ordinary humble tickets just as much.
In fact, maybe I like you more because you're horny handed sons of toil.
Anyway, please come and be there.
I think it'll be such fun.
I love seeing you.
It's on, I didn't mention the date, did I?
December the 6th.
Saturday, December the 6th.
And I haven't mentioned the other exciting thing.
You'll probably want to stay overnight and it's lovely countryside roundabout.
And the next day, I've commandeered the church service.
I'm going to decide what the hymns are going to be.
It's a really, really lovely church.
And if you fancy coming with me to the, it's the 9.15 communion service.
But I'm going to choose the hymns so there won't be any rubbish.
So it's Advent.
So we're going to get stuff like, I'm going to make sure we're going to get Ocum Emmanuel and Hills of the North Rejoice.
And maybe some other ones that we know and like.
You've got to be there, haven't you?
Got to be there.
December the 6th, Dick and James's Christmas special.
See you there.
I love Delling Pole.
Go and subscribe to the podcast, baby.
I love Delling Pole.
To the Delling Pod with me, James Dellingpole.
I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest.
But before we meet him, let's have a word from one of our splendid sponsors.
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Welcome to the Delling POD.
Nick Griffin, by the way, I just want to say to you, in case I I don't know how familiar you are with the Delingpod.
I have no intention of stitching you up.
I'm not.
I'm, which must be quite unusual uh, among the people very unusual, yes who've interviewed you over the years.
I, absolutely I have no agenda and I could tell before we, because you're the first guest i've we I glimpsed I hope i'm not being indiscreet here I I glimpsed a bit of domestic tension in the Griffin household, in that you thought I was just ringing you up for a chat uh, as a sort of preliminary to doing the podcast, and you weren't ready and your shirt wasn't right and your wife or your partner whatever,
was cross because you've got your grandchildren coming around, and and you were saying yeah, but I want to do this podcast because it's quite important, and I was thinking this is really.
I felt I felt bad for having interrupted.
Well actually, do you know what I felt most bad about?
I felt bad for getting a fellow, a brother, in trouble with his missus, because we've all, we've all been there, we all get.
Let me tell you, it was made James, it was, it's really not your fault or mine.
It was made even worse by the fact that she was struggling with well, she'd been struggling for the last half hour with some hideous online form which had kept crashing, uh.
So uh, this was already bad news and they, as I said, I I was not expecting to do the show, so i've had to move in a hurry somewhere.
So i'm out of the way so the grandkids can come with some of them anyway and I won't be causing problems.
But never mind I, I all I know about you You, James, to be honest, is that a number of old hands of mine had said, Can you get on with James Denningpole?
Because he's really interesting and he's open-minded and so on.
So I thought, right, we'll do that.
But I did want to have some idea of what you wanted to talk about, which was an idea for a prior chat.
But it doesn't matter.
Back in the BNP days, most politicians have speech writers.
Sure, you've heard someone with Margaret Thatcher speechwriter or they're a speechwriter for so-and-so.
I've never had a speechwriter.
I either write my own speeches or I don't write them.
I've always just spoken off the cuff.
And I particularly used to enjoy in the old BNP days.
Sometimes I go to a meeting, quite often in the back of a pub, which was open to the locals as well.
And I'd say, right, I'm not going to make a speech today.
And they'd all look, yeah, we've come miles to see you.
What's going on?
I said, no, I don't want to make a speech.
I said, because that can be false.
You know, I'm just going to answer questions.
So then this is absolutely your show.
And the only thing I said was the only word of warning.
When you ask me a question, try not to give me the answer you want to hear in your question.
Just ask me the straight question.
And at the end of this session, here, I believe you'll have found all of you will have found you agree with virtually everything I said.
And can you imagine that with anyone else in British politics?
So I'm actually very happy with completely unrehearsed, unheard questions.
You can ask me anything you damn well like.
And if I don't know if on your show you have your viewers can come in with questions as well.
They do.
I don't want shows like that at all.
I'm absolutely open to anybody.
That would require too much organization, Nick.
And I'm not into organization.
I'm not into preparation.
I'm trying to remember what I know about you on a personal level.
And it's only an old friend.
I mean, years ago, an old friend of mine would have been Rod Liddle.
Does he know you?
Yes, I met Rod Liddle.
Did he used to host the BBC of 4 annual radio awards?
And he one year thought it would be a really good idea to have in a very posh venue in Cambridge.
He had Abu Hamza, you know, Mr. Hook and me to a debate.
And it was so funny.
All these BBC liberals came to it.
It was a really big affair.
And they all came to this.
And so he introduced Abu Hamza.
And because Abu Hamza's Asian, you know, they have to give him a big round of applause.
Then he introduced me and they go like that.
But at the end of the thing, the most remarkable part of it all was that Abu Hamza, in his summing up, said, you know, you've heard from Mr. Griffin, and he said that if he was in power, then there'd be no more wars on Muslim countries and the foreign banks would stop ripping us off.
Our countries would be better.
So we could all go home and that'd be fantastic.
So you should all support Mr. Griffin.
And the BBC people were utterly horrified.
It was so funny.
So that's how I came across Rod Little.
We went and had dinner and he was a I found a very interesting chap.
I think that that must have been it.
I can't think what other of my friends might have known you and said you.
He said, yeah, he's very bright.
That's you, that is.
Cambridge educated, kind of not what you expect.
Something like that.
And I was anyway, it's weird how our careers have developed over the years, yours and mine and Rod's for that matter.
But I was thinking about this, about having you on the podcast, and I was thinking 20 years ago, I would probably have considered you too right, too far right to speak to, because In those days, I would have been possibly swayed by such made-up terms.
And then more recently than that, I might have considered you too toxic to have on the podcast.
And the weird thing now is that my main reservation about talking to you was that maybe you're a bit normie.
Do you know what a normie is?
Of course I know.
I'm not that old.
Of course I know what a normie is, yes.
But a lot of normies don't.
Oh, they see Mark, but they see our, but that's because I have never been a normie.
Okay, okay.
So this is my mission today, is to find out where our views align.
Oh, and also, by the way, I know you can tell me some stuff about controlled opposition, Tommy Robinson, for example, and how it compares with – because I think they tried to control you at one point, didn't they?
They did, yes, they made me an offer that I did refuse.
Yeah.
And to find out where we differ and where we align.
But first, okay, so American viewers particularly won't understand this, but you used to be the leader of the BNP, the British National Party, which was formerly the National Front?
It wasn't, not precisely, it grew out of the National Front.
We needn't go into the history of the splits and chaos of the far, far right.
Yes, it grew out of the National Front.
It was when I so it was Britain's primary party as such, which opposed mass immigration from a very hard-right nationalist position.
Many other nationalist views, opposition to the European Union from the very start, support for tariffs in order to protect homegrown British industry, which is very much now the thing in the United States.
And it was pretty hardcore.
I joined it partly because I saw lots of good young men making the same mistakes that we made a few years before in the National Front.
And I thought that the pressure for the whole multi-cult experiment was so big.
I had about two years, sorry, I had about year and a bit, when I sort of dropped out of politics between the National Front and the British National Party.
So this is more now for you British viewers, I suppose.
And I was living with my wife and a growing family on a small holding on the Shropshire Hills.
Basically, I felt politics have been very hard, so we've given up on that.
We just perhaps try getting on with our lives.
And a friend of mine whose kids were a fraction older than ours had children at the local village school a couple of miles away.
And his wife worked as a secretary at this school.
So she heard all the sort of what was going on.
So they had their Christmas event.
And the headmaster of this school was a hardcore leftist out from London, but he knew him and sort of parachuted in there.
Hardcore leftist in favour of the multi-cult immigration, all the rest of it.
But the school was totally white.
The only black things for Miles around was sheep.
It's completely one of the last bits of England that's really English.
And even back then.
And at the end, so for Christmas, they did the usual thing.
They did the carol singing and the nativity play and the Christmas tree and all the rest of it.
And that January, someone from the Education Authority came round to inspect the school and asked, well, how did you celebrate Christmas?
So the headmaster, basically a Marxist, said, well, you know, Christmas and all the things they'd done.
And this woman from the local education authority said to him, well, you can't do that again.
He said, well, what do you mean?
She said, well, it's not sufficiently diverse.
Shropshire, which is in itself a very, very still a very traditionally English county, Shropshire Education Board, we're not doing that anymore.
Everything's got to be completely multicultural.
And you can only celebrate Christmas next year if you also celebrate E. Diwali and Hanukkah and make it, you know, across the board inclusive for everybody.
And this teacher said, but, you know, it's actually, I agree with you.
It would be wonderful.
It's a real shame that this area isn't multicultural, but it isn't.
So this would be wholly inappropriate.
And what's more, and sort of taking refuge in the last possible position for a materialist, he said, we don't have the resources to do it.
And this woman from the Education Authority said, don't worry, we can lend you some saris.
And when I heard this, I realised that this isn't something you can run away from.
This is so poisonous and aggressive.
There's nowhere they will leave.
Everywhere has to be transformed in this cultural Marxist revolution.
So at that point, I thought, well, I've got to get back involved.
So although the British National Party was frankly too hardcore for my taste, because John Tyndall was a very brave man, a very decent man, but also a British National Socialist.
He was a British imperialist.
He was also a Nazi.
But I got involved with it.
And after a few years, because I was a far better organiser and so on, was elected to lead it and do something with it.
But even before then, I'd gone to, I'd spoken in every local party branch around the country, basically, a couple of years before, and I'd said, look, for demographic reasons, we've got about 20 to 25 years in which this situation can be stopped and turned around and we can get our country back.
After that, it will be too late.
And that was in 1996.
So the reason I haven't been involved in party politics since leaving the British National Party nearly 10 years ago is that I believe it is now far too late to reverse the demographic catastrophe.
I'm not just talking about immigrants coming in.
I'm talking about the catastrophic die-off of our population as the boomer generation dies and because we simply haven't got enough children, young girls coming up a childbearing age.
There's going to be a demographic catastrophe across, in fact, the whole of the industrial world.
No one can stop it.
And there is no political solution to this.
The solutions, the society of which we are a part, the society you and I have regarded as entirely normal and going on forever, that is going to die over the next 20, 30 years.
But our people, especially if they know what's coming, if they're organised, they do the right things, will carry on.
We're going through a new collapse of Rome.
We're in about AD 408 right now.
When was the collapse of Rome?
430, I think.
410.
Yeah, we're pretty cool.
So possibly, not long.
Just for the sake of your American viewers, the British National Party became the most significant electoral insurgent party in British right-wing history.
We, with a million votes at our height in one set of local elections, with 14% of the votes on average, everywhere we stood across the country, it was a significant thing.
It was stopped partly through lawfare, partly through subversion, partly through the strain of trying to run a radical party under immense pressure.
But primarily, you mentioned controlled opposition before, and the BBC, primarily because the BBC, they were so hysterical about me and the British National Party.
For 10 years, every single election, there was the main issue of the election, whatever it was, usually the economy, and the subtext for politically interested people was what's going to happen with the British National Party.
We terrified them for 10 years, and in the end, they called us fascists, Nazis, all the rest.
It doesn't work.
They're doing it to Farage now.
It's not true.
It won't work.
In the end, the only way they stopped us, the BBC did a deal with Nigel Farage and had people involved in what was then UKIP, now reform, quite near the top.
So we knew what was going on.
He did a deal with the BBC that he would talk about immigration, but only East European immigration.
They would use that to build the idea that he was the respectable anti-immigration party.
Therefore, people wouldn't have to vote for the British National Party.
And they promoted Farage to an outrageous extent.
I was on Question Time once, which as you probably know was a public lynching.
They had Farage.
Yes, they had Farage on 22 times when, according to their own rules, his and my party were equivalent.
We should have been on the scene.
They had Niger Farage on things like, have I got news for you at comedy show?
So they promoted Farage in order to stop the British National Party.
And that succeeded very, very, very well.
Because basically, I had, in the final elections we were in, I had so many people coming up to me and saying, we've seen what you've done, we agree with you, but got to be realistic.
Niger Farage has been a bit softer.
He's got a better public image.
We've got to vote for him.
We want to vote for you.
We're going to vote for him.
I'm very sorry.
I had people shaking my hand and apologising while campaigning door after door after door.
So Farage took our votes and that was it.
And he's since said the thing in his career he's most proud of is not getting Britain out of the European Union.
It's stopping the British National Party and stopping Nick Griffin.
The interesting thing, the ironic thing of this is there's a thing in politics works every time, the law of unintended consequences.
When you do something dirty, it always somehow or other comes back to bite you.
So the BBC did this deal with Farage.
They promoted him to stop me.
In doing so, they boosted him so far that UKIP got so many votes that David Cameroon gave them a referendum, which he thought the yes side would win.
And of course, in the end, we got Brexit.
Now, they haven't delivered a proper Brexit.
We've been stitched up with it.
But nevertheless, it did put an awful big spoke in their wheel.
And if you follow the trace back, we got Brexit because of the referendum.
We got referendum because of the vote that Farage and UKIP got.
And they got that because they were promoted by the BBC because they were terrified of the British National Party.
So although in the long run, we had no real direct effect in British politics, we've had a huge effect in the politics of Britain indirectly.
Hang on, give me one second.
I've got to, um, I've suddenly...
Wait there.
Global warming is a massive con.
There was no evidence whatsoever that man-made climate change is a problem, that it's going to kill us, that we need to amend our lifestyle in order to deal with it.
It's a non-existent problem.
But how do you explain this stuff to your normie friends?
Well, I've just brought out the revised edition of my 2012 classic book, Watermelons, which captures the story of how some really nasty people decided to invent the global warming scare in order to fleece you, to take away your freedoms, to take away your land.
It's a shocking story.
I wrote it, as I say, in 2011, actually, the first edition came out.
And it's a snapshot of a particular era.
The era when the people behind the climate change scam got caught red-handed, tinkering with the data, torturing till it screened, in a scandal that I helped christen ClimateGate.
So I give you the background to the skullduggery that went on in these seats of learning where these supposed experts were informing us.
We've got to act now.
I rumbled their scam.
I then asked the question, okay, if it is a scam, who's doing this and why?
It's a good story.
I've kept the original book pretty much as is, but I've written two new chapters, one at the beginning and one at the end, explaining how it's even worse than we thought.
I think it still stands out.
I think it's a good read.
Obviously, I'm biased, but I'd recommend it.
You can buy it from jamesdellingpole.co.uk forward slash shop.
You'll probably find that one.
Just go to my website and look for it, jamesdellingpole.co.uk.
And I hope it helps keep you informed and gives you the material you need to bring round all those people who are still persuaded that, oh, it's a disaster.
We must amend our ways and appease the gods, appease Mother Diet.
No, we don't.
It's a scam.
I was thinking as you were speaking, Nick.
Yes.
The weird thing is, and you must have noticed this, I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
But Harry, I'll carry on.
Yeah, you describe yourself, I think, on your sub stack as a Christian nationalist.
And the position that you've just outlined with regards to immigration and stuff and keeping a sense of sort of cultural identity in your own country.
So many people would share that.
So many people.
And it's very fashionable right now, isn't it?
Lots of people call themselves Christian nationalists.
And you've got podcasters like Millennial Woes and the Academic Agent and people like that.
It's quite a big constituency, I'd say.
Yes, it has become so.
It wasn't.
It's really quite a recent thing.
And most of them, I would say, are not Christians at all.
If you're a Christian Zionist, you're a heretic and you're going completely against the words of Jesus and the Bible.
But they think they're Christians.
And overall, I would say that a man who thinks he's a Christian is probably a better man than someone who doesn't.
So I can live with it.
How's that for light?
Is that better than anything?
That's fine.
It's fine.
Don't sweat it because this is not a party political broadcast.
So you need to say was, and yet, if anyone mentioned the name, brandish the name Nick Griffin, even now to people of a certain generation, they've been so conditioned.
You are the Emmanuel Goldstein.
You are the target for the 10 minutes hate, or whatever it was.
10 years hate in my case.
10 years hate.
Your job was, well, you've just indicated when the BBC would report on elections, one of their main goals was to show how few votes you'd got because you were the embodiment.
As far as you were presented, you were the embodiment of everything that was toxic and evil about Britain.
No reasonable person could have held your vile position that white schools in rural Shropshire should celebrate Christmas and not Kwanzaa or Hanukkah or Diwali.
So you had a job and it wasn't the job you thought you had.
The job you thought you had was speaking out to all those people who, I mean, the Rivers of Blood speech, I suppose, captured that mood as well.
But the multicultural experiment, which was imposed on the British people and other people around the world, without there ever having been consulted on it.
And it was probably imposed, this was probably planned over what?
A period.
I mean, the clergy plan was what in the 19...
That was 1922-23.
So it goes back a very long way.
For that matter.
In fact, could I just say there that if you go back to the tail end of the First World War, and the British government and the employers made a concerted effort to have mass immigration into Britain at the tail end of the First World War.
That was only stopped by the fact that returning servicemen were so disgusted that there were bloody riots in London, Cardiff, Liverpool, Glasgow, Teesside, Hull, and people were killed.
And in the end, they simply had to ship these people home.
A few stayed and became the mixed-race communities of Tigers Bay, for instance, in Cardiff, but most of them left.
So now they've tried this before.
The Calergy Plan was one specific individual who then sort of set it out and said it would be a good idea to have mass immigration, then miscegenation, to breed white people out of existence.
And then obviously, I'm not even sure that the 68-generation cultural Marxists, I'm not sure whether they even took what they did from Kalergy or not.
They certainly took it from the Frankfurt School, but Calergy was a different beast to that.
But certainly, as a sort of cipher, as a label to put on what's being done to our people all over the world, the Calergy Plan's as good as any.
Okay, well, maybe we'll come back to the Calergy Plan because I didn't want to interrupt the because I can see that when I set you off, you'll go on for a bit, which is fine.
Oh, I talk far too much.
You have to stop me.
For heaven's sake, stop it.
Cut it off.
Okay.
You can be as rough as you like.
Don't worry.
i would uh why would i be rough i mean i think you're because otherwise you'll have a monologue and that's fundamentally boring Your job is to interrupt me.
I'll try and keep you on track.
Okay, so you thought you were speaking, well, you were speaking to this large constituency of our country, which has been shafted by successive governments.
No one voted for mass immigration.
Nobody voted for the melting pot.
And yet we got it.
We got it in spades.
No pun intended.
So at the same time, you were used by the enemy for their propaganda purposes.
By the enemy, I mean organizations like the BBC.
The BBC turned you into a thing that you are not really, I suspect.
It turns you into this kind of hateful embodiment of manifest evil.
So what I wanted to ask you first of all is, why did you go on doing it?
I mean, how could you survive mentally and you'd be so much happier in your school holding with your goats or whatever you had there?
Yeah, so we had goats.
No one has had goats could actually be happy with them, I think, if you also want trees.
They're extraordinarily destructive and frustrating lovely creatures.
That's, by the by, how did I do that?
I've got a stubborn nature, I suppose.
So being told you can't do something offends.
I had possibly the last generation of a traditional education.
I passed the 11 plus, could have gone to the local grammar school, but it was being turned into a comp.
And my parents said that'll be lousy results in a few years' time.
So they worked incredibly hard.
My mother took two jobs as well as my father to put me to send me to Woodbridge School, just a very bog standard public school as a day boy.
And I was there in the 1970s, early 1970s.
And we still had, most of the teachers had been involved in the Second World War.
They'd fought in the Second World War.
The ethos was still very, very traditionalist.
And it was the sort of school that had produced subalterns in the First World War and bureaucrats that go out and look after people in half a dozen villages in India for two or three years, then die of malaria.
And although obviously they'd moved on from that, I think I've been back a couple of times since and looked at it and it's changed so much.
So the school I went to school in was far more like the public schools of, say, if you've ever read Storky and Co. by Kipling, it was far more like that than a school is today.
So I imbibed that.
And then on a sort of personal family level, my grandfather was in the regular army in July, August 1914.
So he spent the whole war on the Eastern Front.
I'm sorry, on the Western Front, the whole of it.
Other than obviously some leave.
And he got compassionate leave for seven days when his brother was killed.
And as a result, he missed being shipped to the Dardanelles.
So he went through that.
And my father was in the Second World War and the RAF, not able to fly because he was partly very slightly colourblind, but otherwise he would have done.
But the people I grew up with and the older men I knew and so on, they went through far worse than anything I've been through, anything you've been through.
Anything that anybody in this country, other than the veterans of Afghanistan, have been through.
They went through that and they came out the other side.
They didn't whine about it.
No one said you've got PTSD.
They got on with their lives.
And why on earth when they were prepared to do that?
And my grandfather and my father both said before they died, in my father's case, well before he died, in fact, that it was all for nothing.
It was totally futile.
They wouldn't do it.
Their mates wouldn't have done it.
The First World War and the Second World War.
That's the standard position of most veterans.
So what kind of man would I be if I let threats that people are going to petrol bomb a house and all the rest of it stop me?
I mentioned question time before.
On the way into question time, in order to rattle me, they had a mob of four or five thousand leftists outside.
And we genuinely asked at one point, could we, if we hired a helicopter, if we charter a helicopter, could we come in to your helipad on the top of the roof?
Because this is going to be so dangerous.
The answer was no.
So I had a brilliant security team.
We had four cars.
I was in one of the middle ones.
And we came in round the back and so on.
So we dodged this mob completely.
It wasn't expected.
And we got to where the BBC had said, you can come to this back entrance.
We'll let you in immediately.
And first of all, they kept the gates shut.
But secondly, even when they didn't open the gates, the police arrived.
They wouldn't let us go through until the mob had caught up with us.
And the cars, the cameras are caught up with us so they could see scuffles and trouble.
And, you know, being in a car when there's several thousand people yards away from it who want to kill you, it's a pretty unnerving experience.
So that was done.
So I had to go through things like that day after day after day.
For more than 10 years, I didn't walk down a single street anywhere in this country without, as I'm doing so, I'm looking.
There's a brick there.
There's a discarded cider bottle there.
There's a lump of wood there.
So if someone has a go at me, they could use them or I could use them.
So I lived on it.
I lived like that.
And it was very hard, some of it, for my wife and kids.
Some really hard stuff.
But you've got to do it because if they break you and you can't do it, well, it's a matter of self-respect.
Also, a matter of belief of fate that if you know something's true, if you know something should be done and you don't do it, then it's going to catch up with you at some time sooner or later.
So I just carried on.
Plus, also, some of it was tremendous fun.
You know, it's great, great fun.
We, oh, yeah, we had some, we had some tremendous fights.
Now, fights, if it's something desperately out when you're outnumbered, so you're likely to die, it's terrifying.
But if it's just a straight-on scuffle, you know, that's fun and get on getting on, say, TV with Jeremy Paxman.
I was on with him twice.
And Gordon Brown and Tony Blair and so on, all sorts of politicians wouldn't even step in the ring with Jeremy Paxman.
And I went in with him twice and did perfectly okay.
And the second time, as we finished, he winked at me and shook my hand when the cameras were the other way because it was good TV, it was well done.
And stuff like that.
It's the adrenaline buzz out of that.
I fought for Cambridge boxing, and the adrenaline rush you get out of fighting and winning in front of a thousand people in Oxford Town Hall is nothing compared with the adrenaline rush you get from a successful TV interview.
So, yeah, it wasn't all hard.
Some of it was tremendous fun.
You've just answered one of my questions, but so you're a boxer.
And they do say that not anymore.
I'm not.
They do say, do they not, that of all these, of all the martial arts, yeah, Taekwondo and Judo and Jiu-Jitsu and Kung Fu and stuff, Thai kickboxing, the one that is actually most effective on a street level is boxing.
That's the most useful because it just like takes people out with it.
So were you, were you, were you.
Could you look after yourself in a fight?
Is that what you're talking about?
I could look after myself.
I had, as I say, great security team, but they weren't always there.
I could look after myself in a fight or at least have a go.
The biggest problem, my reservation about the idea of boxing as the most useful in the street fight is that as a boxer, you're basically taught, well, really, you know, here's your target.
Yeah.
Stomach as well.
But amateur boxers tend to go for the head because it's harder to go for a body shot.
And if you hit someone on the jaw or on the forehead with your fist, you're as likely to break your hand as you are to knock them out.
You are.
So no, it's not particularly good.
If you're boxing, you actually have to move from boxing to fighting dirty.
So instead of punching for someone's nose, you've got to try and get the throat.
So, you know, it's not entirely good.
It's a better thing.
It's the psychological thing, I think, that there is nowhere in this world, other than perhaps of a grave of a loved one, there's nowhere more terrifyingly lonely than just stepping up into a boxing ring in front of a big crowd.
I bet.
That really is something.
So that's pretty good preparation for something.
In the end, it's just a scuffle.
Did you get a move?
I've got three, but I got blue three years running.
Yeah.
Half blue the first time because the first time because I lost on points.
And then the second and third years being knockouts in the first round, got two blues.
Yeah.
That's quite impressive, Nick.
You have to tell an American what that is.
Is it a full blue for full blue?
yeah yeah well american listeners a blue is is when you well do you have to technically beat oxford or you have You have to.
You have to, whatever the sport, a blue is the title of the award, which a sporting, a sportsman or woman in certain sports representing either Oxford or Cambridge, doesn't work for any other universities, gets if they compete against the others.
So in my case, I was Cambridge, so you compete against Oxford at the first team level in one of the major sports.
So the sport everyone will know, obviously, is the Oxford Cambridge boat race.
So rowing is one of them.
So instead of order of importance, it's basically rowing.
Sorry, rowing, rugby.
Then the oldest continuous boxing competition in the entire world, which is the Oxford-Cambridge varsity match.
And then it's football and cricket.
And then you go down the scale and judo.
And then at a certain stale point, you get to, even if you compete and you win, you only get a half blue.
That's certain sports.
I think swimming might be one of them.
And then you get right down and you get a half blue for chess.
You get a quarter blue for tiddlywinks, at which point it's just obviously a joke.
But no, yeah, it's quite a serious thing.
And you get to wear in the Cambridge case, you get to wear a light blue scarf that everybody in Cambridge, everyone in Oxford recognises it.
I was hitching many, when I was a lad, many, many years ago, I'll salute uni.
I was hitching one night and it was raining.
I thought, I'm going to get stuck out tonight.
And a jack came past me on quite a country road, slammed its brakes on, came back, and this fellow wound the window down and said, Is that a Cambridge blue scarf?
So I said, He says, Hop in, dear boy, hop in.
Really?
Yeah.
And do you remember anything about the journey with the champ?
Who was he?
I don't think he was.
He was something from Cambridge, and he was a blue.
I can't even remember what it was many, many years.
He saw a sporting man.
He wanted to bum you in his country.
Possibly, yes.
Well, this is a public school thing, borders only, I hasten to add.
That is a good story.
Yeah.
So I was I was thinking later on, if we're here long enough, you might want to ask me about my more recent hitching story, because it's quite an interesting insight into what's going on in Britain.
Let's carry on for now.
No, give me a hitching story now.
Okay, right.
I have a suspicion, James, that we may have to do several more shows to get through all this because this is a different sort of interview.
Great fun.
I hope that the question is, will your viewers like it?
Because some of this is pretty sort of narrow personal stuff.
And we'll see anyway.
I hope they do.
So your hitching story.
I hitched.
How old are you?
60.
Right.
So when you were a lad, did you hitch everywhere?
Or were you Italian?
No.
No, I didn't.
I may have hitched occasionally, but where were you brought up?
Where were you brought up?
In the Midlands, outside Birmingham.
Right.
So I was brought up in born in London, but bought up in Suffolk, in rural Suffolk.
So from the age of about 15, I hitched everywhere.
And my mates hitched everywhere.
We hitched all over the place until I was, basically, until I got a car.
And I always said, obviously, when you're standing on a roadside and everyone comes past you and you think, one, you're sort of hurling abuse at them, especially the ones who wave at you.
And then you all make this pledge.
Well, when I'm driving, I'll pick up hitches.
So Julie, when I got a car and started driving, all the hitches suddenly stopped, basically.
And so you never see hitchhikers in Britain anymore.
No.
Used to be, so I'm 66.
And so back in the 1970s, when you arrived, say you went through London on the tube, that's the Metro or whatever, to foreigners.
You went through London, you got to the edge of one of the motorways, to the motorway slipway, and you'd find five people or even pairs of people already hitching in front of you.
And they get a lift one every five minutes would get picked up.
So after 20 minutes, you were at the front of the queue and you hitched.
So we hitched everywhere.
It was wonderful.
Met lovely, fascinating people, very kind people, all sorts of really interesting things.
But more recently, of course, no one hitched.
And I wouldn't hitch by myself.
No one would pick up under my age, no possibility.
Even back in the day, it was difficult.
So I've got 11 grandchildren and the oldest ones are all boys.
And so one of the oldest ones, he's 13 and so on, big, nice, nice lad.
And I began to think it'd be quite fun to show them that you can still hitch.
Because I put a, when I was before my Twitter site, Twitter page was pulled down, I put a tweet once, just sort of in passing almost about hitching.
And I got an amazing response.
Huge numbers of people on a tweet about hitching.
Why?
And it was two groups of people.
One was all the old people saying, yo, yeah, used to hitch.
It was great fun.
This is such a shame.
It shows how we can move from a high-trust society to a very low-trust society that people don't hitch anymore.
It's, you know, one of the, it's a key sign, actually.
And it's very sad because it was so wonderful.
We had great times.
And all these anecdotes.
But there was a minority of the comments were from youngsters.
And half of them were saying, I'm so envious.
You know, it must have been great.
The other half was saying, don't believe you.
Bullshit.
No one would hitch.
It's always been too dangerous.
You're just trying to show how back in the day you were, you know, a real man, you're a mensch, the Jews would say.
And they genuinely thought these kids, they're so sheltered and scared of their own shadows that they genuinely thought that people our age would never have hitched because it'd be too dangerous.
You couldn't do it.
So I felt this very sad.
So I said to my eldest daughter, the one with this lad, I said, Would you fancy coming hitching with me?
And she said, well, I don't know.
And I did this because a couple of weeks before, my wife and I had been in Scotland and we passed an obvious granddad and grandson hitching.
We couldn't stop.
We're coming around a corner and so on.
So carried on.
But 20 miles down the road, we stopped to make a cup of coffee.
And lo and behold, five minutes later, car pulls up and these two, granddad and grandson, get out.
So my wife said, the hitches are here.
So I said, I'll go and have a word with them.
So I've walked across this quite long lay-by.
The time I got there, they got another lift and they'd gone.
So I thought, right, it works, clearly, even now.
So I said to my daughter, I want to, the oldest and I, we'll go hitching.
She asked me, we said, yeah, fantastic.
So we hitched from the Welsh border, absolutely the very western edge of Wales, and we hitched from there to the Suffolk coast at Southwold, to Southwold Pier, which is about as far east as you can possibly get in Britain, where we have fish and chips and so on.
And it took us 14 lifts.
We got stuck in Thetford overnight and had to sleep just rough, but that's part of the fun.
And out of the 14 lifts, two were from ethnics.
One of them a British-born Sikh and one of them a British-born second generation West Indian.
Both of them were extremely pro-British, horrified with the way the country's going, absolutely disgusted, and voting reform.
Three of the Brits, because this was only back in the tail end of this August.
So three of the Brits were intensely political and were looking at, you know, obviously with the Union Jack flags and the St. George Cross flags everywhere as you go through Hatterston down the A5 and so on.
And as we pass around various towns, they're saying, oh, this is fantastic.
So three of the 14 believe that Britain's on the edge of a civil war and are thoroughly on side.
There was a traditional Catholic coming back from Mass.
We had a fascinating discussion about the evils of Vatican II and all the rest of it.
And basically, out of the 14, only one of them was a liberal in any way, shape and form.
She was a young girl, too stupid to know any better.
We were the first people she'd ever picked up and she picked us up because it was obviously a granddad and a grandson and she was absolutely delighted.
But it was a fascinating thing.
And in the end, for all the people's sake, now a low-trust society, we had an hour to wait on our first stop because it was such a busy roundabout.
It was somewhere people could stop.
But there were so many cars people couldn't stop.
And I noticed this several times that compared with 50 years ago, there's actually so much more traffic on the road going so much faster and it's sort of congested that it's actually harder for people to stop as a driver.
Now, I know when you would stop and when you think, I'd love to stop you, pick you up, mate, but it's too much of a risk of getting rear-ended.
So it's no, so that's changed, it's made it harder.
The other thing is that back in the day, lorry drivers were the best for lifts for long journeys, and now they're not allowed to pick you up.
They're sacked instantly if they pick up a hitchhiker.
And the most of them have got cameras in their cabs, so they cannot do it.
That's interesting because that is how that is how the evil overlords introduced this stuff against us.
They use the private sector to enforce the state's dictators.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly so.
So, because of that, if you allow for the fact that lorries can't stop and pick you up, and for the fact that it's a little bit harder to find a good hitching place because of the volume of traffic and the speed of traffic, I would say it's no harder now to hitch than it used to be then.
Because when I was hitching mainly, I was 16, 17, you know, most of the time.
So I wasn't a threat.
I was quite a slight lad.
I wasn't a threat to anyone.
So it's no harder.
Our people are still as lovely and friendly as trusting as ever.
And members of the ethnic minorities who've been here a long time are basically culturally us in large measure.
They're just the same, just the same, just as decent.
It was really a fascinating thing.
The grandson went home, daughter and husband said, went home three days later.
Absolutely knackered, taller and much older.
And a couple of weeks ago, he was asked at school, do you want to do the Duke of Edinburgh Award?
Remember that?
So for again, for foreign viewers, it's where sort of youngsters are encouraged.
They go and do things like walking through a bog and a forest and they have to get to the other side in a certain time scale, etc., etc.
They have to go and do good works.
Bit like a glorified Boy Scout.
So he said, Well, what is it?
And they said, Well, first of all, it costs you £250.
And secondly, the most exciting thing, this is what you're going to do.
It's really exciting.
We take you up the hill quite close to here, drop you off, and you walk eight miles through the forest by yourself.
So he said, Look, I've just hitchhiked across England and it didn't cost anything.
I'm not asking my parents for £250 to spend a few hours walking through a forest.
So he didn't do the Duke of Edinburgh Award because, in his mind, he's already done it.
That's a very good answer.
Of course, the really based answer would have been the Duke of Edinburgh, as I understand it, was the model for Voldemort in charge of so many of the black ops operations, including the assassination of Princess Diana.
So, why would I want to taint myself?
Yes, indeed.
So, that would be a little bit deep for a 13-year-old, I think.
Quite cool, though, wouldn't it?
I mean, you know, that would have been extremely cool.
Yeah.
Can we just backtrack?
I like that story.
Very charming.
Just backtracking briefly, because I didn't finish asking you my question, which is when you did question time, you did something that I'm always advising people against from bitter experience, which is never fight on terrain of the enemy choosing.
Because no matter how well you perform, the best you can be optimistic here.
The best you can hope with is a draw.
Yes.
Really, you don't even get that.
I've been shafted On at least two occasions by the BBC, and it did feel like being raped, frankly.
It was horrible.
I mean, it was just like, I mean, obviously, people have actually been raped.
You're going to say, well, hang on a second, you don't really lie.
But I did feel just like violated.
Yeah, stick shocked violated.
Yeah, it was horrible.
And the way that they gang up on you, the way that they engineer.
And I didn't feel that afterwards, immediately afterwards, or many months afterwards, that the experience had been worth doing.
I'd basically given, I had given material to the enemy, to people who are genuinely evil.
The BBC is an evil organization.
Yep.
And I'd fed the beast.
Don't you think that's rather what you were doing by agreeing to be on question time?
I understand entirely.
And yet, my advice generally is don't fight on their turf.
Although on BNP days, we were doing exactly that because we were elections, elections, elections.
It's their turf.
And to an extent now, we had to do it.
I wish that we'd spent also more time in other turf, including lawfare, which is still their turf, but necessary, and more on community organization, which would have been in our turf.
But there we go.
You live and learn.
So on this, to a degree, I didn't have a great deal of choice.
I'm not complaining about it.
In the end, I happily agreed to do it because we've been trying for some years to get me on question time.
The question time for American viewers and Australians, et cetera, is the BBC's flagship political debating programme, would you call it that?
There's a sort of moderate political discussion programme, isn't it?
Yeah.
And you get representatives of various parties plus some token journalist or whatever.
Cultural figure or something.
Yeah.
And you went on to this program.
Yes.
So you've normally got about five guests and the chairman is always there.
And they have an audience from whichever town that they're in that week.
And it's supposed to be a representative audience.
You can apply for tickets.
Invariably, it's very, very left.
Anyway, they tell you beforehand that they vet the audience and they're very, very careful to ensure that all political views are representatives and there is no bias in any direction.
They shouldn't say that.
But then the BBC, they lie routinely.
If you believe that, I've got a big bridge in central London, I'll send you.
So we tried to get on it for ages because it's sort of a mark of being accepted as in the political game because they used to have all sorts of people on.
So the spokesman of various tiny little extreme left parties, for instance, used to get on there.
And then when we became a sort of threat, we started to push, you know, and say, right, my press office officer would every now and again contact the BBC and say, right, you know, this issue this week, it's some immigration-related thing.
You should have Mr. Griffin on.
And they said, well, yeah, we will soon.
Yeah, we will soon.
Then after a bit, they started saying, no, we can't because you don't have any elected representation.
And we've made a new rule that even if you're in politics, well, because you're in politics, if you're in politics, you must have people elected.
And this hadn't been the case in the past for these little left-wing groups.
So we duly went and got councillors elected.
So then they came back and said, yeah, you've got councillors elected, yes, but we actually thought this is a bit too much, too open.
So we made it a little bit narrower.
You've got to have significant representation.
You've got to have at least 50 councillors elected.
So I wasn't allowed on.
So we came back a year later or two years later and said, right, we've got 50 councillors elected now and more.
So it's time to have Mr. Griffin on.
Oh, no, no.
And each time they moved the goalposts until finally they said, in order to be represented on question time, you need to have, and they said, now this is firm and fixed.
You must have at least two members of Parliament or members of the European Parliament.
And at that point, or the devolved assemblies, at that point, you can come on question time twice a year.
That's the rule.
So if you've got that, that's the rule.
And that applied for Nigel Farage because he had far more members of the European Parliament once we got elected, but no people elected to the Westminster Parliament.
So that applied to us both.
So when we then duly crossed that threshold in 2009, I was elected along with Andrew Bronze in Yorkshire, me from the northwest of England.
So we're now members of the European Parliament.
And this horrified everybody.
And at that point, we then went to the BBC, probably expecting him again to turn it down.
And they finally said, after much debating and hooing and hiring, they finally said yes.
So therefore, right, I'm going on it.
So obviously at that point, there's a little bit sort of bluff has been called, oh, damn it.
But nevertheless, we said at that point, I can't really say no.
And we still thought, well, it can, you know, have some sort of impact.
So the question was what?
So first of all, I prepared as far as I did by looking at what they'd done when they had Jerry Adams on, member of Sinn Féin IRA.
So a man who was responsible for the murders, not just of British soldiers and Protestant civilians, but of many Catholics as well in Northern Ireland, a Marxist monster.
And they had him on, and about the first third of the show was basically slightly snidy questions like, Mr. Adams, have you stopped giving orders for people to be kneecapped?
Things like that.
But which he batted away.
At the end of that first session, they moved on to discuss all the normal things that a question time show, it's once a week, by the way, would discuss, you know, some issue with the railways and a financial crisis, blah, blah.
So I thought, well, they won't treat, rather naive this actually, they won't treat me any worse than Jerry Adams because I've never kneecapped or blown up anybody.
But of course they did.
But we also, there was a lot of discussions that are within the inner party circles.
How do I handle this?
And I'd done a, I don't know if you're familiar with Hard Talk.
It's a one-on-one discussion programme that was BBC or Channel 4.
There's a fellow called Tim Sebastian who used to do it.
Yeah.
Quite an elderly Jewish fella.
And he was a pretty good interviewer.
When I was in with him, it made awful television.
He was basically, give me a question, I'd still answer.
He'd cut across me with another one.
Bang, bang, bang.
And it ended up basically repeatedly, just a slanging match and a shouting match.
And everybody who saw it thought it was rotten television.
And that I came out as confrontational and aggressive.
So it was no good at all.
So we decided that if I go on and do what I normally do, which is to be really quite confrontational and rough people up, because I'm so outnumbered, it'll actually just be a slanging match.
And I will look just as bad as they are.
In fact, their aggression will be split up between them.
All my aggression will be from me.
So I'll look like basically a political thug.
Won't work.
So we decided in the end to try something completely different, which would be to switch on the British people's underdog switch.
So I went on intending to get beaten up on live TV in verbal terms.
So when people with good memories will remember at one stage, Jack Straw, the Labour Home Office Minister, was having a go at me and basically said I'm a Nazi.
And so on.
And I turned around and said to him, in the Second World War, your father was in prison as a conscientious objector because he wouldn't go and defend the country that had given your family refuge reasons in Europe.
My father was in the RAF from the Second World War, so don't call me a Nazi.
And that was a point where I snapped and came back.
And that was all my supporters.
Hey, fantastic.
But overall, I was, in the first half of the programme, it was just a beat up griffin where they presented in order to establish one fact in their mind position that I'm a fascist.
Because the BBC had decided that we haven't managed to stop these people by smearing them and attacking them or by ignoring them.
Whatever we do, we ignore them for a few months.
They keep on growing.
We attack them.
We smear them.
They keep on growing.
They decided that the only way to stop us was actually to let the public see what our views really were.
It had to be how they viewed us.
So the first half of the programme was designed to make it clear that I was a fascist.
So it was all stuffy about the extremism of some members.
Some of them have been expelled, others hadn't.
Other stuff's exaggerated.
Others true.
If you subject a large group of youngish working class men to an enormous amounts of aggression and pressure and tell them that they're Nazis, some of them will turn around and say, well, okay, so I am.
So what?
You know, at least I don't, you know, I don't want our people exterminated in our own country, so I don't care anymore.
So they were able in the first half, in their mind, to establish the idea that I'm some kind of extremely toxic right-winger.
But then they also, they wanted to do, their mantra was that the British National Party was fascist, racist, Islamophobic, and homophobic.
So in the second half of the show, they actually did let me speak a bit, which was in order to, so they'd asked me what I think about immigration.
And, you know, do I really believe that Britain, that the English are English and white?
It's a racial thing.
Can a member of an ethnic minority become English?
No, they can't.
In a civic sense, they can become British, because there's a sense in which British is purely a civic label.
So of course they can become British, but they cannot become English any more than Joanna Lumley was Pakistani because she was born in Pakistan and her father was born in Pakistan when he was in the British Army.
So of course not.
So I dealt with this.
So I said what we believe and they were satisfied, that's fine because Griffin's established in everyone's minds that he's a racist.
They did the same thing with Islamophobia and allowed me to say some pretty tough things about the problem with Islam.
I didn't have time, of course, to elaborate the fact that radical Islam, the Wahhabi stuff, is basically a creature of the Western intelligence services.
Didn't have time to do that.
But nevertheless, they felt that I'd established myself as an Islamophobe.
And then they did the same thing also with the homophobic thing by the one question that they asked in the whole show, which was vaguely current affairs, was about some homosexual pop star who had died two weeks before.
And I said, you know, basically, well, he's dead and not really interested in talking about it.
But as a matter of fact, what people do in their own houses is entirely up to them.
We haven't got a problem.
But when people are kissing in public and trying to make out to children that this is a good thing, frankly, I find it creepy.
And that was all.
So that established I was a homophobe.
Now, the BBC's utter horror came in that, yes, if people who came on, a lot of our people weren't happy with it because I was very defensive.
So if people had seen me say, or heard me chewing up John Humphreys on Radio 4, which I frequently did, or blow to blow and having great fun with Jeremy Paxman, they thought that Nick Griffin is so good, he'll absolutely wipe the floor with these people.
Now, you can't possibly wipe the floor with a panel of five and the chairman and the hand-picked audience.
This should have been in one of our popular seats where we were strong, you know, like Oldham or Stoke or somewhere like that.
It was in central London.
The audience was so extreme that when in the warm-up, a black man in a suit stood up and said that he thought that actually immigration was getting out of control, he was howled down by this mob.
So it was an extreme, the whole thing was biased.
So I couldn't actually have won it, but the proof of the pudding was in the eating.
Two things.
First of all, the Sunday Times did an opinion poll on the following Friday, Saturday.
This thing always happens on a Thursday, which was published the following Sunday.
And that had the British National Party on 22% people saying they'd consider voting for us.
We'd never before been above six.
So it went up more than threefold for all that unfairness.
So I maintain that the British public's underdog button was pressed.
And also that what they actually heard when I was allowed to speak, obviously, people aren't stupid.
They're clever enough to work out, and this is extremely biased.
So the bits I was allowed to speak, nearly a quarter of people watching it were sufficiently impressed.
They said they were now considering voting British National Party.
It was at that point that the BBC put promoting Farage into absolute overdrive.
And it took them four years of that in order to press our vote enough at the next general election and the European election for UKIP Farage's party to overtake us on a huge scale.
And they never ever had me on.
Up until that point, I was quite often on Radio 4, say, because it's fun and I was good.
And their interviewers are damn good as well.
So I didn't get my own way all the time.
It made good radio for the class of people who listened to Radio 4.
I was quite often on it.
From question time onwards, I was never on any TV unless they were legally obliged by electoral law to have us on to give us a short space of time.
And all we got instead was Nigel Farage, Nigel Farage, Nigel Farage.
So I absolutely take your point that it was a very risky thing to do.
And I was nervous about doing it.
I still think it was right to do it.
In any case, it's done and dusted.
And one of the things that I most commonly get when people still stop me in the street and say hello.
And it's nothing like as much as it was, but there's still a lot.
And anecdote about this anymore, if you like.
One of the things I get most of all from people is, and this was 2010.
So this is 15 years ago now.
One of the things I get most commonly from older people is what they did to you on question time was disgusting.
It really did sink home with people.
Because that was my, that's what I remember about it.
I remember watching it and feeling absolutely disgusted that they treat any human being like that.
The BBC sort of wants to seize the moral high ground, wants the virtue signal.
And it revealed its, it showed its colours that night.
But we must tell American watchers that this, it's this tax-funded operation, the British Broadcasting Company, has on the porch of its front headquarters in London, it has a picture of an adult man with a naked child, which was made by a sculptor who was a convicted paedophile.
Yeah, Eric Gill.
It's the mark of the BBC.
Eric Gill.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think you've done some research into some of the things that interest me, the way the world is really run and who's in charge and stuff.
The BBC is surely was always, from the off, a branch of the intelligence services of the deep state.
Yeah, it was certainly a branch of the intelligence services, particularly the, well, the overseas stuff, obviously the World Service.
Yeah, it was actual British soft power.
To be honest, it's not in the days when we had an empire and serious international trade routes and so on, there was a justification for having A British propaganda outlet which went to the world and generally was not as deceitful as their own local media, so therefore was trusted.
That was probably something the British people, it was worth spending taxpayers' money on.
But and likewise, internally.
So, yeah, they certainly would have, in the event, say, of serious labor unrest and so on back in the 20s, the 30s, the 40s, they would have taken the side of the government.
They became very, very utterly left-wing a little bit later on.
So they were, even from the, as you say, from the get-go, they were there as the propagandists of the British state.
But they also had, I think they did, I think in the very early days, so for some time running on, they did believe that their mission was to educate and elevate as well.
Well, there were Hanukkahian values, but I think there were genuine values.
I've had a lifelong love of English and Irish folk song, which came from, you may just remember, you're probably too young.
There was on the BBC radio once a week for primary school children, there was a programme singing together.
And all the kids, they got these little booklets were sent out to the schools and there were these songs in.
And then it came on the radio and used to spend 40 minutes singing.
It was a singing lesson.
But all the songs in this were folk songs.
Blow the man down and their stuff, lots of sea shanties and things like that.
And that was about the last gasp of the BBC when it still did actually represent.
It was consciously trying to do something to promote a cultural unity and our heritage.
Now, more recently, another unintended consequence here, quite recently, or from 20 about 2008 onwards, the BBC suddenly discovered an interest in English folk music.
Suddenly became quite a thing on the, you know, not played on Radio 1, that's wall-to-wall, non-white horror.
But they discovered an interest.
Why was this?
Because the far left, the Billy Braggs of this world, you know, these frankly not particularly good folk protests, sub-quality Dylans.
And they were horrified because the British National Party was using folk song.
So they decided to stop this.
They created something folk against fascism and they persuaded the BBC because they're all like that together to give this thing plugs on radio stations to sponsor their annual awards and all the rest of it.
And actually it did quite a lot to promote to promote the folk music, which is now quite a significant part of indie music culture amongst young kids, youngsters in England.
And that's another unintended consequence.
They only did that to stop us.
So one of my great aspects of pride for me, for Nigel Farage, his pride is stopping the British National Party.
My pride in my political career, part of it, is having persuaded the BBC to take English folk music slightly seriously.
Yeah, although, of course, there were those who would say that Cecil Sharp, I think, Cecil Sharp House is where they collected all these folk music.
I think it was all tied in with the early British fascist movement.
So they'd say, well, of course you'd like that kind of stuff.
I want to ask you about the offer that you did refuse.
What happened?
I was approached.
Now, this was about, I think it was about 2007.
I'd have to talk to my old press officer.
He's got a far better memory than me.
I must do so, actually, because quite a lot of people ask about this.
We had an approach from a young man who spoke to the press office several times and said, look, I represent a serious element within the Jewish community.
And we know that there's problems between us and you and so on.
But really, the people I represent would like me to come to sit down and talk with Mr. Griffin.
So we thought, okay, we'll do so, see what they've got to say.
And we wondered amongst themselves, well, is this, there's possibly something good here, just possibly, that have these people who if you looked at any of the efforts to suppress British resistance to mass immigration, you would find the Board of Deputies of British Jews or Jewish citizens like Bindman and Leicester, who literally produced the first Race Relations Act text in 1968, which was the first attack on free speech.
It only took a bite out of it, a little bite.
And then the 1976 upgrade, which made it a much tougher law, clamping down so you could begin, it began to become impossible to talk openly about crime by ethnic groups.
And that also came from Bindeman and Leicester.
And time and time again, if you look at the Socialist Workers' Party, the Anti-Nazi League, which helped to stop the National Fronts and produce Antifa and so on, you find this same, these left-wing Jews, which is something Charlie Kirk pointed out, you know, not long before.
So we decided, yeah, I'll go and meet this chap.
So I duly did.
And he was a young, extremely articulate and well-informed young Jew.
And he said, look, basically, you know, we think that we can do you some good and you can do us some good because you've got a problem with Islam and we've got a problem with Islam.
So can we work together?
So I said, well, this depends what this is about.
Because this is the thing we considered is, have these people actually realized that what their left wing has done is to drill holes in the lifeboat, which is the only place the Jews can go to, to a civilized society, if they lose Israel.
So is this actually, are they realizing that perhaps it wasn't a good idea to destroy Europe and Christendom and the white race?
So perhaps they now want to make amends and to help us to survive.
So I discussed this, I said to him, if that's your people's motivation, then, yeah, I am prepared to do a deal because we don't have to talk about Israel.
Our position was anti-Zionist.
The party's position was thoroughly anti-Zionist.
We didn't go putting out leaflets about it in Oldham, but nevertheless, we were anti-Zionist and against involvement in other wars and so on.
So I said that we don't have to be anti-Zionist.
If you were seriously going to help us, then I can give to you, I said, we can't be pro-Zionist, but I give you a neutral position.
And one of the things I got most stick for from the far right on question time was they asked actually about the latest round of troubles in Gaza and so on.
And I said, it's really got nothing to do with us.
If Israel wants to fire missiles at Gaza, it's up to them.
They're a sovereign state.
If the Gazans want to, if the Palestinians want to fire them back, it's up to them.
They're sovereign as well.
We don't want nothing to do with it.
So I was actually trying to keep my side of the bargain there, that just, nope, not going to attack you.
And I said, I will do my best.
If you're serious with this, then, yeah, we can do a deal.
Now, I'll tell you in a minute what he offered, because it's very interesting.
But I said after this offer and so on, I said, look, if you deliver this, I will do my best to decommission the residual anti-Semitism that's in the British National Party.
Because obviously, if your people are now helping us to survive, why should we attack you?
I can't expect you to help us if we can do nothing.
So that was the offer.
And what he offered us was this.
He said, well, we are already helping you.
We've done some things to show you what we can deliver to you.
I said, well, what?
He said, well, don't you remember, it had been a few months before.
Do you remember the Daily Star?
No, not the Daily Star.
No, it was the Daily Star.
Yeah, sorry.
The Daily Star, a very lowbrow daily tabloid newspaper.
And they'd come to us some months before, and they said, our editor's been thinking, a lot of our readers vote for you and so on.
He's been thinking, hasn't we been unfair in the past?
So we want to run a story that's fair to you.
So we thought, oh, yeah, and you want to set us a bridge too?
Come on.
But anyway, we duly, the press officer did an interview with them, gave them loads of stuff.
And they wrote this full page, which was, it was so ridiculously sympathetic and schmeltzy pro for the British National Party.
If I'd been asked to write it, I wouldn't have written anything so ludicrous.
Yeah.
And you know, with a great picture, you know, normally the pictures I knew of me looking like a swivel-eyed monster because this isn't my real eye or someone who's a skinny with tattoos all over his face, the face of the British National Party, blah, blah, blah.
And this thing in the star was fantastic.
And we couldn't understand why.
But he said, well, we gave you that.
Just to show what you can do.
He said, you can have as much of that as you need, no problem.
Then he said, then you remember the white series.
Now, the white series was on Channel 4.
It was like five, each one a week, five programmes.
It was white, as in white skin, about multiculturalism from the indigenous perspective.
And it was an incredible five programmes.
You might remember the adverts.
There were two adverts.
They were like something that Goebbels produced for the Nazi Party in terms of bang in your face.
There was one, there was a British bulldog sitting in a park.
And one after another, all these foreign dogs, there was an Afghan hound, there was a French poodle, there was some in German, they all come up and cropped their legs and urinated on the British Bulldog.
So this is how the British people feel.
And then even more dramatic than that, there was just a close-up face shot, basically, of an obvious, like your white van man, clearly supposed to, you know, very, very short hair, 45-ish, white working class.
And a black hand comes and writes something in Punjabi across his face.
And then another hand comes and writes something in Hindi, and another one comes and does it in Polish.
And at the end of this like 30-second sequence, his face has been turned from white to black.
I've almost never seen only any something involving sex would have been a more powerful piece of genuinely racist propaganda than that.
And it set for the tone for these five shows.
One of them was looking back at Enoch Powell and came to the conclusion that Enoch was right.
But the only thing he got wrong, it wasn't anymore about, it wasn't specifically immigration, it was about Islam as a part of immigration.
That's the bit that is going to cause all the trouble.
But Enoch's right, there's going to be hell to pay.
There was the thing about the last, very sad one, about the last two white children in a whole neighborhood.
And the girl, 14 or so, basically was becoming a Muslim.
And the little brother, who was a kid of about nine, just said, you can't do that because it ain't us.
It was terrible.
Then there was one about a working man's club in Bradford, in a part where the whole area is just being swamped and taken over by Pakistanis.
And this series was incredible.
He said, well, he doesn't think that came out of nowhere.
We produced that.
And there's more of that where it came from.
And when I checked this afterwards, out of the five programmes, I think it was five rather than six, out of the five, one of them was produced by a TV company for Channel 4, which was run by Sikhs.
And the Sikhs hate the Muslims.
The other four were produced by Jewish production companies.
So it really was, it was a really serious offer.
And I said, you know, that's the case.
That's what we there's the deal.
I'm prepared to do the deal.
I'm cynical enough.
I'm a politician.
You know, I'm also automatically, you know, there's something wrong with my head because no politicians are completely honest.
Get that in your head.
You have to maneuver and dodge questions.
I always tried to answer them honestly, and I didn't like if I couldn't answer them honestly.
But sometimes you can't, so you have to duck and dive.
But I answered that honestly and I said, We will.
I will decommission the anti-Semitism of the BNP.
We will take a neutral stance.
And if it push comes to Shaft and you lose Israel, if you help us save our country, we're a people with a kind, generous long memory.
We will allow your people to come to Britain if you help us save this lifeboat.
You know, if not, then go to hell.
Anyway, never heard anything more.
All we got from that day onwards was a war of political extermination against the British National Party from everybody, and never a scrap more sympathy.
One more thing on this because they've done this twice to me, as a matter of fact.
Earlier in the National Front days, 1985, and no 87 or so, we were approached by a Rabbi Schiller from New York, who actually flew over to see us.
And the NF was nothing like the threat that the British National Party claimed to the elite, but it was still quite significant in youth culture and so on.
And he came to us and said, Look, we're really interested in what you're doing with ideas.
Because when the youngsters took over the National Front, we started to develop ideas.
Catholic watchers will immediately know GK Chesterton, Hilaire Billock, and the distributists, for example.
So we started thinking about ideas like this and ideas about that.
You can't just say we're going to kick all the third worlders out.
You have to look at the third world.
Why are they here?
And it's partly because our banking system and our multinational capitalist system has helped us loot and wrecked their countries.
And you can't get rid of them from here unless their countries can come up so it's worth going back to.
So we were developing these much more sophisticated ideas.
And Schiller came to us and said, Look, we're very interested in this and we'd very much like to work with you and help you and we can fund you.
But there's only one thing: you've got to stop talking about the banking system.
So we told Rabbi Schiller politely where to go.
Actually, the party was split over it because some agreed with it, and I and others, this is 1989, we said, no, we're not going to sell out like that.
But that was all, that was his price.
And we thought actually that that was the price that was the thing they really wanted us to do.
Actually, it's not the case.
Now we got into the question of controlled opposition on a much bigger scale than just me.
Because a couple of years before this, they'd approached some Italian comrades, Roberto Fiore and some people I'd known very well all my adult life.
They were approached in the same way, not by a rabbi from New York, but by some Jewish fellow living in Italy and so on, with lots of money, approached them and said, You know, we can work with you.
Actually, El Duce Mussolini, his first mistress was Jewish and she financed the march on Rome.
So we can work with you.
And the ICON, the present, the Zionist terrorists who became the IDF and whose political representatives became the parties which Netanyahu is from, they were trained in Mussolini's Italy.
So he said, you know, we can do a deal with you, we can work together.
But the price for them was you can do everything you want.
We obviously need you to stop attacking Israel.
So we're very anti-Zionist.
But the only other thing you've got to do is stop talking about Codrianu.
Now, Codrianu was a very obscure Christian fascist leader in Romania, hugely controversial, very romantic.
He was assassinated in the end.
And the Italians being very excitable and the Romanians being very similar, it's the same language essentially.
They really took to Codrianu.
So the Zionist agent said, you've got to drop him.
Now they thought that this was some deeply important spiritual thing.
The organised jury is really frightened of Kodrianu in the way that we thought they were really trying to defend the banking system.
But then they approached another colleague of mine who lives in Northern Ireland and he's a social marketing genius.
And they approached him and asked for his help.
And he was approached by people, if you wanted to go into this at length, it needs another whole program.
People who are known and I can name and so on.
He was approached by them who said, well, we want you to come and work for us because we need to promote a civil war between whites and Muslims in this country.
And you can help us to do this with your social media skill.
And a man, Lars Hedegaard, in fact, he's the chairman of the Danish Free Press Society, which is connected with the Heritage Foundation and this ultra-neocon, ultra-Zionist, multi-billionaire clique in the United States.
He flew over from Denmark, and this is some years ago now, sufficiently far enough.
He took his checkbook.
Remember those?
out of his pocket and he gave Jim a signed, no first he gave him a cheque signed for £300,000.
And he said, you bank that, you start working for us.
And once this goes ahead, then you can come to New York, you'll meet others.
He said, there's lots more where that came from.
You can have as much money as you need.
And Jim said, no, not interested.
And then he said, all right, you're a hard, you're a hard bargaining man.
He pulled his checkbook out again.
He wrote a blank check, signed it, and gave it to him blank.
He said, Mr. Dowson, Jim will confirm this.
He's spoken about this before.
You can fill in whatever figure you want on this check.
And we will honour it.
We can afford it and we need you.
So Jim said, well, what's the price?
And he said, well, you just do this work for us to keep on pushing the counter-jihad thing.
And Jim wasn't ever talking about Zionism.
That didn't come into it.
He said, there's only one thing.
We don't want you to speak about the evils of abortion.
And Jim has made his skills and got his training and so on by being a very effective pro-life campaigner.
So in every case, these people come to you and they offer you everything you need, including lots and lots of money.
In every case, there's one thing.
And they give you a condition you must comply with, which actually doesn't matter to them.
Netanyahu, who doesn't really mind if someone criticizes the Rothschild banks.
For heaven's sake, come on.
Everyone in our circle criticises Rothschild finance.
It makes no difference one way or another if another small fascist party criticizes the Rothschild banking system.
No difference.
They want to check that you've sold your soul to them.
So you have to give up the most important thing to you.
So to us, it was the banking system, because we were hardcore ethno-nationalists bought up on that.
To the Italians, it was this romantic figure with his wonderful rhetoric, Kodrianu.
To Jim Dowson, it was to no longer speak about abortion.
Actually, it was abortion and homosexuality.
Now, they don't have much abortion in Israel.
They're quite, homosexuality, they have some, but it's not particularly liked in the IDF, say.
Netanyahu, who doesn't give a damn about any of these things, these people don't.
This is the hardcore Likud wing of ultra-Zionist extremism.
And all they want when they give you one of these, this is the soul price, it's literally because they want your soul.
Once you sold out to them on that, you've indicated you'll sell out on anything.
So then they know they've got you.
And then they'll give you the money.
We refuse.
That is so interesting.
I expect there's something Talmudic about that.
You may well be right about that.
You may be right.
And incidentally, I think here, this might be what's going on with Nigel Farage.
Now, I've got no time for Farage.
He's a banker.
He's a spiv.
He's a big Rothschild, isn't he?
I mean, he's in some way.
I don't know.
But what I do know is, see, and then there's a difference.
You can be controlled by one group within the elite, but not by another group.
It's not one monolithic thing, the elite.
There's different sections.
Very often they push in the same direction.
Then it really goes.
Sometimes they go slightly at odds, but they're jostling and shoveling and shoving.
You know, the Rothschilds and the Kuhn Loeb New York banks had a huge dust up over the Russian Civil War.
The Rothschilds had invested massively in Russia.
They lost all of that in 1917, 18 when the Kuhn Loeb Bank people, through Trotsky and Lenin, took over.
Now, they wormed their way back in not that long afterwards, but this is a jostling between members of an elite who, as well as wanting to screw everybody else, also are quite happy to screw each other.
So coming back to Farage and this, that Farage was under, I think, yes, he's under the control of a big section of the elite, the same section which has clearly decided that in order to confront China, America has to rebuild.
So all sorts of things had to be reversed.
Therefore, you need some kind of Caesar figure to turn things back and to start protecting American industry and this, that, and the other.
And there you've got Donald Trump.
So there's some sort of deal there.
The same people I think were happy with Farage.
Bear in mind, they used Farage to break up the European Union, which is to the benefit of the Wall Street money power, without a shadow of a doubt.
But with Farage, there's now everyone on the real controlled opposition and the really dangerous thing in Britain now, but other countries as well, is actually this counter-jihad focused solely on Islam, right-wing extremism, which is trying to drive us into a civil war.
Now, I was Britain's number one Islamophobe for 15 years.
So when I say that actually there's people who are trying to create a civil war and it's really not a good idea, and they're pushing the Muslims and pushing the Muslims and pushing whites to bite them as well, and that if we end up fighting each other while we fight, our masters laugh at us.
If we're so busy fighting each other, we can't fight them.
So when I'm saying that, it should carry more weight than if other people say it.
But the people really pushing this, it's not just Tommy Robinson, Tommy Robinson at one end, and in fact, people much cruder and so on than him even further down the line, goes all the way through the GB news.
And you've got £43 million a year being thrown to subsidise GB news.
Basically, and it's not really GB news, it's what are the WOGS done badly yesterday news, because it's all about immigrant crime and all the rest of it.
It's a very effective thing, and it's driving people crazy.
If you can hold that thought, because it's better to run this all in one, so I get to where I'm going with this, that there's this enormous block being used to push public opinion in Britain in this direction, a direction which is, they're pushing an open door because people are desperately angry, you know, rightly so about what's been done to us and the Pakistani grooming gangs that the entire political elite did nothing about other than the BBC trying to send me to prison for talking about them in 2004, 20 years ago.
So people are angry, but this is being manipulated.
And with Farage, I believe that they wanted him to, well, jump on board with this as well.
And Farage has always, he's actually an anti-racist.
He's always opposed immigration from Eastern Europe.
He does oppose criminals.
I think that's true.
But he always says that we need more immigrants.
And in particular, he is absolutely in favour, as Trump is, of bringing in huge numbers of Hindus from India.
But he's never attacked Islam per se.
He's never attacked Muslim immigration.
He's campaigned in mosques and so on.
And you remember probably a few months ago, perhaps it's getting on a year ago now, all the fuss when Elon Musk offered $100 million to Farage.
Remember that?
Yeah.
Yeah, quite publicly, basically.
We're going to back Farage and I'm going to give him a personal donation of $100 million.
The biggest war chest in British political history, that would have been.
And he said this, but at the same time, he was saying, and Tommy Robinson, he needs $100 million and Tommy Robinson.
And Musk pushed Farage very hard to admit Tommy Robinson to reform.
And Farage said no.
Now, Farage is a bit of an English snob, and a lot of his voters are English snobs.
And Tommy's a bit of an Oik.
But he is, for all his faults.
He's a very suave, cheeky sort of oik.
He's quite charming.
He's a crook.
He's a crook and a grifter and a warmonger.
And he's wrong in all sorts of ways, but he's charming.
And yes, Farage would have got some pushback from the BBC and so on, even more than usual if he'd had Tommy on board.
But he wouldn't have had anything like as much trouble as to make it worthwhile giving up $100 million for.
So Farage logically should have had Tommy, but he wouldn't take him.
So why?
When logically he'd got a bit of stick for it, but would have been massively beneficial.
He wouldn't take him.
So, okay, it's because I believe, probably it's because Farage is there for Farage.
He's extraordinarily egotistical, and Tommy is quite a big fish.
So Farage turns up to any reform meeting, and he's the only man in the room to everyone there.
If Tommy was there for everyone under the age of 40, Tommy would actually be the man in the room and Nigel would be the one who isn't.
So because of that, Nigel Farage turned around and said, I'm not having Tommy Robinson.
And at that moment, $100 million, plus whatever else would have followed, disappears.
And I believe this is exactly the same thing that they gave this choice to Farage.
And if Farage had said, you know what, I'll grip my teeth and swallow and I'll put up with the Tommy boy because it's worth an awful lot of money and support.
If he'd done that, it would have shown them that he's under control, totally.
And even though he's generally under control, if he won't accept not just their shilling or their shekel or their 100 million, if you refuse that, if you won't accept that without giving something up, you're not fully under control, Iralu's canon.
And I think that they see Farage as, for all that we see him, in terms of the big, big picture global elite, we see him as being under control.
Those people, from an actually specifically Zionist point of view, they're not sure he's under control because he wouldn't do the sensible thing and give way when they asked him this real personal thing.
And since then, there's, you don't see it in GB News or anything like that, but across the whole of the counter-jihad social media movement, which is enormous, huge, with enormous influence on young people and the white working class, they've been attacking Farage and saying people don't join reform because Farage has got a seller, he's a sellout.
He's got a Pakistani chairman, Youssef, whatever his name is.
So instead of that, join the other one, whose name I can't even remember, Reform, Restore.
There's another one who's run by Ben Habib, who's actually only half Pakistani, and he's slightly to the right of reform.
Yeah, and he's the one playing all the counter-jihad stuff, and this is all about Islam.
So, when some girl is raped by an asylum seeker from the Congo, they don't talk about that, they're not interested.
They only do it when it's a Muslim rapist, right?
And they're all of them gunning for Nigel Farage and trying to promote Ben Habib instead because Farage is controlled opposition to us in a way, but to them, he's not under control.
So, I think it's very interesting.
And there's a direct line between them trying to do this to an obscure bunch of young fascists in 1986, and now they've done it to Nigel Farage.
That is such an interesting thing.
I mean, I'm weirded out by the different offers that they had not expected the, I did not know where that was going, and it's very interesting hearing where it went.
Yeah, I'm this is where I thought you and I were going to disagree, but we don't.
I am very suspicious of that quite large constituency which is ramping up this tension between they see Islam as the threat.
And I've had people, some of my favoured podcast guests from the past, people I like personally, they've fallen for this scam.
They think that the biggest threat facing them is they're going to be murdered in their beds by evil Islamists.
Well, it might happen, but they don't seem to understand who's controlling the Islamists, who's who created this in the first place.
Who wants the civil war?
And it ain't the Muslims, no, absolutely, absolutely.
So, yeah, you know, obviously, there are problems, um, but they push, like I say, they will only focus on criminality and problems when there's Muslims for the others.
There's no problem.
So, Tommy Robinson says, Yeah, you know, we want a multicultural society.
I love a multicultural society, bro.
You know, I've got family members who are married to black men and so on.
I've got no problems with any of this.
It's just Islam.
Yeah.
So, they're doing that.
And it's because they want this war.
And so many exaggerations.
Like, they're still saying, even good friends of mine will say, you know, as an example, in the budget yesterday, when they removed the two-child cap for benefits, yep.
So, child benefits for American readers, everyone in Britain or every family gets money from the state for their first two children.
And it used to be you've got extra money for every extra child.
And the last Conservative governments tapped this at two.
So the Labour Party have just come in to say, well, we're going to open it up again.
So people with 10 kids will get lots and lots of money.
So all the anti-all the Muslim haters and people just genuinely worried about immigration are saying, oh, here we are.
This is all going to the fast-breeding Muslims.
They're going to swamp us even faster and we're going to be paying for it.
Right now, look at this in real life.
There's two angles for this.
First of all, those payments, the number of those payments they're going to be made to families with six children or more, 18,000 in the whole of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
18,000 families with six children or more.
Right?
Now, I know that some of those families are traditional Catholics.
A handful of them are hardcore white racist Nazis.
Rather, more of them are just dull-grabbing benefit street trash who just have kids.
Others of them are loving parents who just love having children.
Some of them are Orthodox Jewish families in North London and Manchester, and some of them are Muslims.
So out of that 18,000, a proportion is Muslim.
So it's a tiny number.
So supposing it's half of them, supposing it's 10,000, 10,000 families having six kids, it's 60,000 children.
Come on.
This is, we are not being outbred.
Furthermore, there was a time going back 10 years ago or 15 years ago when the birth rates in places like Bradford and Tau Hamlets, which is the biggest concentration of Muslims, either Pakistanis or Bengalis, were going through the roof.
They were very high.
Do you know now there's only one borough in the whole of Britain which is even at birth rate at replacement birth rate and that's South Bedford which covers Luton.
All the rest at Bradford, Tau Hamlets, they're at two and dropping.
They're closing primary schools in Tower Hamlets because the Bengali birth rate has crashed through the floor.
And I was speaking because I've become before they destroyed my main Twitter account, I was a year ago, I was really campaigning hard on the appalling atrocities going on in Gaza and the fact that British taxpayers' money were helping to finance this and so on.
So I was getting a lot of good response and contacts with Muslims.
So I've spoken to in particular a couple of Muslims, one of them, a very well-known actually Muslim lawyer in the East End.
So he's defended Muslims accused of terrorist offences and so on.
He said, most of my work is divorce and all the usual stuff that families get.
And he said that our community down there is exactly where your white working class communities in places like Teesside and Sheffield and Burnley and so on were 20 years ago.
He said our community has started to collapse.
He said, I've constantly got women coming to me saying, I want a divorce because my husband, he's so useless.
All he does all day is sit and drink alcohol, smoke weed and play on his computer, play on his video game.
And they're all the same.
All my friends' husbands are the same.
And their community is falling apart.
And the only way you could possibly make them a danger is if you attack them and demonize them so that all their young people say, right, well, the only way to defend ourselves is to sign up with ISIS.
And in fact, the biggest issue of all here is that they are now way ahead of ordinary white kids and especially the white working class youngsters.
All the Muslim communities, all of them, are streets ahead in terms of the number of kids they send to universities, including girls.
And the moment you send a girl to a university, regardless of, in nine cases out of ten, regardless of how much traditionalism and religion and faith and normality you've had at home, the minute she goes to university, she is lost to you and your community.
She will almost certainly become a liberal feminist or at least a careerist and will not have children.
So this community is on the same suicidal rate of demographic decline as we are.
And they're not going to take over and murder us in our beds, even if they wanted to, which most of them do not.
Because the ones who want to murder us in our beds are followers of Wahhabism, the modern strains of which were weaponized by the CIA in Afghanistan and MI6 and the CIA and Mossad in the Middle East against people like Gaddafi and Assad.
And its actual origin goes back to British military intelligence with promoting radical Islam in order to divide the WOGS so the WOGS wouldn't revolt against us.
And there's still still that was the Wahhabism.
Wahhab basically conquered Saudi Arabia in, what was it, about something like 1780, I think, something like that.
And the British found it very useful to import Wahhabism into India, where it became Deiabandism, which is now the main really radical hardline Muslim extremism.
Well to the extreme side of the Muslim Brotherhood, basically, although they are related to a degree that grow out of that.
But these real fanatical ideas were from the very beginning, if not created by, certainly weaponized by the old British military intelligence.
And then they've been seized on, as I say, by the Brits, the Americans, the French to a lesser extent, and the Israelis in order to promote civil war in Muslim communities.
You know, I've been to one of the things that really switched me onto this was being in Syria during the Troubles when it was still mainly run by a sane, secular, decent government under Assad Jr.
And a bodyguard assigned to me at one stage, we were driving around in his car.
So we got into the car and he said to me, can you use a gun?
So I said, well, just about.
So he said, right, in this glove compartment, there's a handgun.
If you need it, you use that.
He said, don't touch my AK here.
That's mine.
And driving around and talking, he's a Sunni Muslim.
And he's saying, yes, I'm a Sunni Muslim.
But these crazies, he said, we've been invaded by takfiris, they call them.
These are people who judge.
Because to mainstream Muslims, you're not allowed to judge.
Mainstream Muslims do interpret the Quran.
This is the misunderstanding that all of us, including me, used to have, that the Quran says it must not be interpreted.
It has to be literal.
And that's true if you're a Wahhabi.
But to judge all Muslims by the lights of the Wahhabis is the same as judging all Christians by the sights of, say, the Mormons of the early 19th century who used to murder other Christians as they passed through their territory.
It's simply not the same.
So, but hang on, I've lost my thread slightly there.
You get the general impression that there is not one overall Islamic bloc, that most Muslims actually hate these takfiris.
And certainly, coming back to my story, my bodyguard, he said, yes, I'm Sunni Muslim, but we hate these people.
Our country has been invaded by takfiris from 80 different countries.
And it's torn this beautiful country apart.
And it's set us all against each other.
And yes, some of our people did support the Muslim Brotherhood and are now on their side.
But the only way to make Syria safe and decent again is we had to support the government.
So he said, obviously, all the Shia support the government.
All the Christians support the government.
Some of the Druze support the government, but some of them are in with Israel.
And me and many other Sunni like me, we support the government too.
So a man who, according to the Tommy Robinson types, would simply have taken his machine gun to me, was driving me around and prepared to die to defend me if it came to it.
Before we go, because I could chat to you for ages.
This has been really interesting.
What do you think the special deal that Tommy Robinson was given was to prove that his soul was sold?
Oh, just money.
Because Tommy, see, all the others, there was already an established organization which was significant enough to be useful to them.
And then they come with the offer and they want your soul.
It's not the case with Tommy.
I did a study back in 2012 called it's still online.
It's called What Lies Behind the English Defence League.
And it's on a site called altright notright.com.
I will put it on my Substack shortly, by the way.
Please, James's listeners, come and watch us, come and join me on Substack too.
Just in case we forget that one.
But anyway, with Tommy, he was nothing.
They created Tommy and the English Defence League from nothing.
And in this booklet I put together from a few interviews with people who were there, but overwhelmingly from what was already in the public domain on the internet, I found everything, it's all in there, that the English Defence League was set up by a group calling itself the Campaign for Vigilant Freedom, which came from the office of Dick Cheney and was funded right from the start by specific donations of the same ultra-Zionist, liquid,
crazed extremist Jewish billionaires in the United States.
They funded the Heritage Foundation, other things like this, and they funded this from the very beginning.
So they set it up.
Tommy was the front man from the very beginning.
So he didn't have anything to sell them.
He was just a front man.
So I guess they probably took him on board because someone said he's a lively lad.
He's really good.
He's brave as a lion.
He's dealing with the Muslim drugs gangs and all the rest of it.
But if you give him more money than they do, you know, you'll have him.
And they've coached him and groomed him ever since.
But no, that's where Tommy Robinson comes from, bought and paid for from the very beginning.
As I say, the study is called What Lies Behind the English Defence League.
And it's at altright, not right.com at the bottom of the page.
That's very interesting.
You know, I've had Tommy Robinson on this podcast as a guest in the early days.
I didn't.
How did you get on with it?
More than almost anyone.
I think I had him on about four or five times and they'd gone on very well.
He's a nice chap.
And we used to go and have lunch and things.
Tommy's a class act.
If he'd had a decent education instead of some grotty Labour Party imposed comp in Luton, he'd have really been quite something because he's sharp, he's brave and he's so slick.
I mean, for someone from his background to be as good as he is with the media, I know they've coached him, but my head is good.
There's two real class acts in Britain.
I can't stand either of them.
It's Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage.
They're both way above.
You remember back in the days when the Labour Party had big beasts?
You know, Tony Benn and Peter Shaw and people like that.
And the Tory Party had Hesseltine and people like that.
There's no big beasts in British Parliament now, apart from that in British politics now, apart from those two.
But big beasts are not necessarily a good thing.
I mean, I've been reading about the origins of the First and Second World Wars, and you realize that all these figures from history were monstrous, monstrous.
I mean, when I learned that Lord Carrington was basically behind the troubles, you know that one?
Yes, yep.
I mean, Blimey.
Yeah, this is the guy with the silvery hair who was sort of presented to us as a kind of elder statesman of Margaret Thatcher.
Well, I always knew he was a piece of scum because he was the one who primarily sold out Rhodesia.
So I never had any time for Carrington.
But no, it's exactly so.
If we have time before we finish, by the way, to really blow your mind, we can go on to one thing about the First and the Second and the Third World War, which you only come across before.
Do you fancy that?
Help me wrap up.
And then, James, can I come back on and we'll have a further chat about other things?
Because there's so much we haven't covered, and it's been really, really, really interesting.
Providing it all depends, if your viewers are really interested, have me on fairly soon.
Anyway, so the first.
Sorry, you raised your point, and I'll come into the first, the second and the third world war.
Try not to leave us all depressed.
Oh, no, I wasn't going to make my point.
I was going to say, how long is it going to be?
Have I got time for a pee first?
Yeah, go for a pee and then I'll do that.
Yeah, all right.
And then I'll.
Right.
Okay.
Can you jot down the name Richard Kemp?
Just in case I forget.
Have you got a pen and paper there?
I know the name, Richard Kemp.
Yeah, Richard Kemp.
So Sir Richard Kemp, the general.
Oh, sorry.
Richard Kemp, there's the Telegraph correspondent.
No, no, there's.
Yeah, he writes, he writes to the Telegraph.
Yes, he's one of the warmongers.
He's like the same Richard Kemp.
I think he's a Lieutenant Colonel.
He was never.
Sorry, Lieutenant Colonel.
Well, he's okay, right, Posh.
So Lieutenant Colonel Richard Kemp.
Okay, remember that name in case I forget it.
Right then.
So you're ready to start again?
Yep.
Yep.
So following on from the question or the points about this push for a civil war, I want to take it to a rather broader picture.
Now, when I was looking at this for the last couple of years, it's become more and more of an obvious thing.
And initially, and until very recently, I was thinking, I know who's doing this.
It's the people I identified in the Tommy Robinson booklet and so on.
So it's this clique of far-right Jews in the United States for obvious reasons that if you push the Brits that much towards war against Muslims, then they'll automatically support Israel.
They'll be happy the government carries on giving money and selling them arms.
If there's a war with Iran, they'll be happy the RAF goes and gets involved, etc., etc.
So it's all part of the Greater Israel thing.
So, all right, understood.
But I've become not dubious about that.
That's clearly part of it.
But I think there's another factor, an even bigger, deeper, darker state thing.
That's the Israeli state.
This is even deeper than that, I think.
That recently, you've had, first of all, Lieutenant Colonel Richard Kemp.
He's been saying that the problem with Islam and immigration and so on, there's going to be a civil war.
And up until recently, I thought he was just, you know, it's clearly a mouthpiece for the British military intelligence, you know, pushing all the nonsense about Ukraine and so on.
But he suddenly starts talking on this as well.
It struck me as strange.
That even more important than that, anyone who's been on the sort of the right wing of British alternative broadcasting, including the GB News and so on, for the last few months, must have seen Professor David Betts.
And Professor David Betts is the head of some slightly fancy-sounding war studies thing at King's College, London.
And he's also very, very close to British military intelligence.
He lectures at Sandhurst.
He's in that general circle, you know, Chatham House, the Royal Institute for International Affairs and so on.
He's in all that Atlanticist circle.
And he's saying that there's going to be a civil war.
And in particular, he's produced papers about it, which, if any autistic kid of 17 had a map on his computer showing where you would have to strike the British electricity network with a small number of terrorists in order to black out London and Birmingham and Bradford, etc., he would be arrested and thrown into prison for a very long time because it's clearly information of use to a terrorist organization.
But Betts is promoting this all over the place.
Now, most of what he's saying seems thoroughly reasonable to a certain degree.
That, you know, yeah, there is clearly, as you said, there's terrible tensions in our society and they're being ramped up.
But is he just an observer?
Now, I'm not sure, but what I do know is that if British military intelligence didn't want Betts promoting this, they would simply tell him to stop and he would stop.
The British state has got so much on Tommy Robinson that he assaults people.
Now, okay, the recent little violent scuffle in a London tube station, and Tommy is vindicated by the CCTV because it shows the bloke pushed him first.
Come on.
Anyone who has any knowledge of how the Met Police and so on have worked for decades will know that if there's a piece of CCTV in public transport which isn't conducive to the case, they lose it.
It's a nonsense, an utter nonsense.
Robinson could be done, he's making millions, millions and millions out of his various things.
I'm not talking per year.
He's making vast sums of money at the moment.
They'd have him al Capone starve attacks.
The man's like that with cocaine dealing Muslims, because he's been a cocaine dealer in the past.
He uses it all the time.
They could have him for that.
They could have him for all sorts of things, and they don't.
They don't have him.
He gets away with all sorts of stuff.
So what's going on here?
The British state is protecting Tommy Robinson, who's trying to provoke a civil war.
It's got key members of its military establishment, the thinking end of it, saying there's going to be a civil war.
And in Betts' case, his documents, as I say, really, they're a blueprint for building a white resistance terrorist organization in cells.
More than that, there's a website which is run by a group of people.
Again, it's in the, these are in my booklet, they're about Tommy Robinson in the English Defence League.
One of the subsections set up by these same people was a website which has lots of good stuff on it, but of late, recently they published a whole, I think it's about 80-page manual basically called Crown, Crescent, Pitchfork.
The Crown represents the forces of the British state.
The Crescent, obviously, Islam, and Pitchfork is the white resistance.
And it's an incredible manual for basically how to cause mayhem.
And it goes in with what Professor Betts.
Professor Betts has said that when this all kicks off, the white resistance, they won't have many weapons and so on, but they will be able to cut off food supplies and water supplies and electricity supplies and commit what he calls herbicide, the killing of cities.
And Betts has recently, in his last series of interviews, he's praising this document that this real Cleveland extremists have put out, which is basically a manual for doing this stuff.
Now, what on earth is going on here?
Because this isn't the normal Zionist suspects.
This is a big section of the British state.
Now, how on earth?
Why on earth would the British state want to tear Britain apart in the civil war?
Yeah.
Now, there's one, it's probably two answers, actually.
They both go together.
First of all, as many of your viewers and probably you as well will have talked about, that when you have an extreme solution, namely a totalitarian surveillance state, social credit and all the rest of it, before you can impose that on a population, you have to have an extreme problem.
So therefore, there's no way the British people, especially the, regardless of how controlled or otherwise reform is, there is an electoral rebellion going on in Britain at the moment.
The flag protest, that was organic and from the grassroots.
There's a mental and spiritual rebellion going on amongst over the whole of West at present.
They're not going to be able to impose that sort of surveillance state.
They can't even impose bus lane controls and five-minute city things in London without people cutting down the cameras.
They can't do it unless they've got a real problem.
So they need a big problem.
So a civil war would solve that for them, wouldn't it?
But then I think it's more to that.
And this is what you mentioned America and so on.
Made me think of this.
That I've come to the conclusion that, yes, this is the usual Zionist, ultra-Zionist suspect, but there's more to it.
The American deep state in the last couple of years has been at war with Western Europe.
Nord Stream was the most dramatic act of wartime sabotage in the whole of world history when they took out the Russian pipeline to take cheap gas to Germany.
That was done obviously by the Ukrainians, CIA.
No question of it.
The whole business about sanctions.
Sanctions are not designed to hurt Russia because they're not hurting Russia.
They pushed oil prices up to the roof.
Russia's selling their oil to different people, mainly to Turkey and India, then they sell it back to us.
And all that sanctions has done is been enabled Putin and Russia to say to their people, look, sorry, we can't get French cheese anymore.
You know what?
We'll make our own.
You have to pay a bit more for it for a while, but you can then eat cheese from Russia, which they are.
We'll have to make our own this, that, and the other.
An import substitution campaign has meant that the sanctions regime has massively helped the Putin government and has made Russia stronger.
The sanctions orchestrated by America and NATO were never aimed at Russia.
They're aimed at us.
They're aimed at de-industrializing Germany, France, Italy, and Britain.
It's just the same as the net zero stuff.
It's part of the same thing.
But it's aimed specifically at us.
Now, America has now absolutely turned its back on net zero under Trump.
And they're going for drill, baby, drill and they're rebuilding industry.
America is losing control of big chunks of the world.
In another 10 years, the dollar is not going to be the reserve currency.
So, you know, huge chunks of the world, which used to buy everything from Russia, will be buying everything from China.
So, America is going to be trying to try and keep the dollar up in a smaller American sphere world.
They've had the hegemony over the whole of the world since 1945.
They're going to have it over a smaller area, including Europe.
And if the pound, GB pound, and if Euro, the Euro are fairly stable, then the dollar, as it loses its, it's a fiat currency scam, obviously, but as it loses the benefit of being the international reserve currency, they print it, sell it to the world, and the world then gives them goods.
America is in desperate economic trouble.
And the only way that American America can revive is if Europe and Britain go down.
Furthermore, America has the same demographic disaster as we are.
Do you know, in every single country in the West, by the end of the century, the demographic, just the death of old people and then an ever smaller number of youngsters means that by the end of this century, we will have suffered the same equivalent of two black deaths in terms of population collapse, unless we have immigration.
That's not some theory, that's just a demographic statistic fact.
So modern capitalism is completely screwed unless you can reverse that.
And America can't reverse it because their demographics are as bad as ours.
They've concealed it by bringing in lots of Hispanics and all the rest of it.
But in terms of the people who make America work, white working class men and white entrepreneurs, they're dying off.
The only way America can really reverse so that it can confront China and hope to win, or at least hope to have a stalemate, is if they have millions and millions and millions of immigrants from Europe.
And I believe that in the end, there's two key reasons America has to wreck Europe.
And one is financial to keep the dollar up.
The other is because they want huge numbers of young Europeans going to America.
Now, if they open their doors tomorrow, they would get huge numbers.
But they need more than that.
They need 30 or 40 million and not that many people want to leave.
But if Britain and France and Germany and Sweden and Holland are basically in the grip of a low-level civil war with all that entails, then when America opens her doors, they will go there.
Now, to wind up here, if any, and this comes back to the World Wars, if anybody thinks the Americans wouldn't do that, they don't know history.
Because among the elite groups pushing and pushing and pushing for the First World War was the United States, so Wall Street and Washington.
Some of them absolutely wasps.
Bear in mind that the United States elite, including their WASP elite, hated Britain.
They always did.
They grew out of opposing Britain.
There was never a special relationship.
That was always bullshit, but they pushed for the First World War.
And when they entered the First World War, their war aims were then openly stated.
The war aims of the United States in the First World War were the destruction of the European empires.
That was their war aim.
And they succeeded in destroying with that war or finishing it off.
They succeeded in destroying the Russian Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the Kaiser's Empire.
They destroyed those.
They pushed for the Second World War.
Yes, other forces pushed for the Second World War.
The World Zionist Congress, for instance, pushed for the Second World War.
Bankers always pushed for war, regardless of their race, creed or colour.
But the United States also pushed for the Second World War.
They were pushing Japan into the Second World War long before the Second World War by strangling Japan with economic sanctions.
So they pushed for that war.
And their war aim in the Second World War was primarily the destruction of the other European empires.
It was to finish it off.
The period between the wars was an armistice.
It was a ceasefire.
Their war aims were the same.
And in the Second World War, or at the end of it, they did destroy the Belgian, French, and British Empire.
As they wanted to do.
I think causing the trouble in Northern Ireland, Carrington and so, part of the reason for that is the same things, the CIA, the American deep state, partly for Irish votes in America, but also out of their old hostility to the British Empire.
That's another piece of the British Empire, in their eyes.
I'd say it's not, but that's, by the by, it's Britain to me, but that's different.
Another piece they can slice away.
So the American Deep State, Washington and Wall Street, had the First World War, its aim was to destroy Europe, or an element of Europe.
The Second World War, the aim was to push down Europe.
I believe that this attempt to promote a civil war is part of the same as using the Ukraine crisis in order to destroy European industry.
I think it's part of the same thing.
And that accounts for why you've now got this being pushed, not just by the usual suspects who are funded by the usual suspects, you've also got the British deep state stepping in to do this as well.
That being the case, I think that despite the fact the Muslims don't want it, and most sensible people don't want it, I think it's quite likely they will get their civil war.
That's what we can come back and talk about that another time.
Wow.
Nick, it's been great chatting.
Where can people find you?
Thank you.
They can find me on Telegram, t.me forward slash Nick Griffin.
Most importantly, they can find me on Substack at Nick Griffin Beyond the Pale.
And I generally publish there six days a week.
And there's a good body of material there.
And I'd very much love to have some of your viewers coming on and joining me there.
It'd be absolutely great.
I'm also on TwitterX, but it's so unstable that I'm there as Nick Griffin BTP.
We could talk about my Twitter problems, that's another time.
But the important one, please do come and join me on Substack.
I've mainly been writing.
I'm shortly going to start broadcasting as well.
And so there should be something there for everybody.
Thanks very much.
I've greatly enjoyed it, James.
Thank you ever so much.
And do please let me know how your viewers have felt it's gone and what they like.
Well, you can see your chat.
But hang on, I'm just trying to look at the bit where it tells you about how uploaded or downloaded you are.
I can't see the it's not showing me that thing.
Um John Worry.
So well don't turn your don't turn your computer off.
Oh, I see.
It says here it's on 98% at present.
Oh well you'll get fine then.
So you know that I understand.
I won't turn it off for a little while.
I can't leave it here.
So it only remains for me to thank all you wonderful viewers and listeners.
I hope you enjoyed the well obviously you enjoyed the chat.
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