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Dec. 17, 2024 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:51:29

Psalm 34: Stephen White

James and preacher Stephen White delve into the wonders of Psalm 34.↓ ↓ ↓ Buy James a Coffee at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jamesdelingpole The official website of James Delingpole:https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk x

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	Psalm 34. This is the Miles Coverdale translation for the Book of Common Prayer.
	I will alway give thanks unto the Lord.
	His praise shall ever be in my mouth.
	My soul shall make her boast in the Lord.
	The humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
	O praise the Lord with me, and let us magnify his name together.
	I sought the Lord, and he heard me.
	Yea, he delivered me out of all my fear.
	They had an eye unto him, and were lightened, and their faces were not ashamed.
	Lo, the poor crieth, and the Lord heareth him, yea, and saveth him out of all his troubles.
	The angel of the Lord tarrieth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
	O taste and see how gracious the Lord is.
	Blessed is the man that trusteth in Him.
	O fear the Lord, ye that are His saints, for they who fear Him lack nothing.
	The lions do lack.
	and suffer hunger, but they who seek the Lord shall want no manner of thing that is good.
	Come ye children, and hearken unto me, and I will teach you the fear of the Lord.
	What man is he that lusteth to live, and would fain see good days?
	Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips that they speak no guile.
	Eschew evil, and do good.
	Seek peace, and ensue it.
	The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers.
	The countenance of the Lord is against them that do evil, to root out the remembrance of them from the earth.
	The righteous cry, and the Lord heareth them, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
	The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a contrite heart, and shall save such as be of an humble spirit.
	Great are the troubles of the righteous, but the Lord delivereth him out of all.
	He keepeth all his bones, so that not one of them is broken.
	But misfortune shall slay the ungodly.
	And they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
	The Lord delivereth the souls of his servants, and all they that put their trust in him shall not be destitute.
	Welcome to the Psalms with me, James Dellingpole, and today we're going to do Psalm 34. And I'm very excited.
	I know I always say this, but I'm very excited about this week's special guest, Stephen White.
	Stephen, welcome to the Psalms.
	Thank you.
	I don't know anything about you.
	All I know about you is that, like, getting on for a year ago, I think...
	You contacted me and said, look, I've just done Psalm 34, and has anyone bagged it?
	And I said, no.
	And then later on, there was a tussle.
	There was a Psalms tussle with Jamie Franklin.
	Jamie Franklin said, finally, I'm available for a Psalms podcast.
	Do you want to do Psalm 34?
	I said, sorry, mate.
	It's all been bagged.
	So tell me a bit about yourself, first of all.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Who are you?
	My name is Stephen White.
	I'm a father of six.
	I live in Bradford, West Yorkshire, with my wife and family.
	I'm from Liverpool originally, so you might still be able to get a touch of that.
	So I was brought up by Christian parents.
	So I've always been awake to this world and not just sort of like nominal Christian parents.
	Like I grew up with my dad telling me that evolution was a lie and they were teaching us false stuff at school and things like that.
	So I've always been aware that a lot of what's going on in the world isn't really as it looks like it is.
	Your dad sounds cool.
	He's amazing.
	Yeah.
	Must have been quite tricky negotiating the education system.
	I did get into the occasional bits of trouble with my science teachers.
	Did you?
	Yeah.
	What happened?
	Well, they just wouldn't mark my work properly.
	So I would give them their answers.
	I would say, the theory of evolution says this.
	And then I would tax something else on at the end.
	So after I give them their answer, I'd say, but actually what happened is this.
	And they didn't like that.
	But what can you do?
	You told them that basically God made the world in six days and rested on the seventh.
	That's right, yeah.
	And the world's about 6,000 years old.
	Yeah, I'm not going to argue over a few thousand with anyone, but it's basically that order of magnitude.
	Yeah, and it was fun.
	And it was really interesting.
	I mentioned it to a guy who used to sit next to me, and he thought I was insane.
	To start with.
	But then, after a couple of years, he's like, you know, it doesn't really make sense, does it?
	And you just drop those little seeds in, and every now and then, I'm sure you've come across this, it just starts to work in people's minds, and then they're like, it doesn't really make sense that life just climbed out of a pond and then grew legs and started to walk on land and all this sort of stuff.
	So where he is now, I don't know, but that's the great thing about believing in God, is that you don't have to be in control of everything.
	Yeah.
	You leave it to him.
	It was a relatively normal upbringing, but there was definitely some different things there, which I'm really, really grateful for.
	You know, I just had to approach everything as, like, well, maybe that's not the case.
	And so that put me as a little bit of an outsider on a number of issues.
	But, you know, you learn to get along.
	I think I probably matured a little bit.
	At university, I used to argue with everyone.
	You had Johnny Woodrow on your podcast, and I knew Johnny from Loughborough University.
	And that's what actually inspired me to...
	I thought, if Johnny could do it...
	I mean, he's, like, levels of magnitude brain above me.
	If the rubbish old Johnny could do it.
	Oh no, he's next level.
	I mean, I couldn't even understand what he was studying.
	But I just thought, oh, well, if ordinary people can talk to James, then maybe I can.
	And so, yeah, I thought I'd let you know.
	You're more than up to the task.
	I can tell already.
	You can talk and you've got the scriptural grounding.
	I had a great day with Johnny.
	I went up to his church in Loughborough.
	Great, great inspirational service.
	And I had fantastic chat afterwards with Johnny and his lovely family.
	You can talk about...
	You can ask him all the questions.
	Talk about all the...
	Christianity, I keep saying, is the biggest of all the rabbit holes.
	It's just so interesting.
	Because literally God is involved in everything in the world ever.
	So wherever you look, there's going to be a Christian angle to anything, whether it's another religion, whether it's science or music or drama or anything.
	So you've been living in a proper Christian world longer than I have.
	I mean, I've been a cultural Christian all my life, but I didn't really kind of get the last bit until quite recently.
	In your experience, what percentage of Christians would you say actually believe that God created the world?
	What percentage have been brainwashed into thinking, yeah, I'm a Christian, but obviously there was a big bang, and then we evolved from the primordial slime.
	That was somehow part of God's plan.
	Yeah, that's a tricky one.
	So, like, my circles have been sort of what you might call evangelical churches.
	So, by definition, we're the hardcore people already.
	Yeah.
	But I did go to a CV primary school.
	I was in the scouts.
	We'd go to the CV church once a month for church parade.
	And so, I did come across a lot of cultural Christians.
	So, my general...
	My general guess is that in my world, the evangelical world, probably quite a high number of people...
	They all believe God made it, but some of them try and squeeze evolution in there.
	But that's quite a small group.
	Most of them would believe that God actively created the world in six days.
	Out in Sea of Eland, I suspect the numbers are probably a little bit lower.
	Yeah, I've had some pretty askance looks given to me when I've said that from people who I'm sure are Christians.
	But they're just...
	They're just so absorbed in...
	Like, the Bible is like this tiny little thing that speaks to a tiny area of their life.
	And science and the media speak into the rest of it.
	And that was just never my upbringing.
	And so, you know, I try not to be too hard on them, but it's pretty clear.
	I usually say, let's say that God could do whatever he wants.
	He could have made the world in six seconds.
	He could make it in six billion years.
	But let's say he did make it in six days.
	How would you want him to write it down?
	So that you could know that and believe that?
	It couldn't be any plainer.
	So it really comes down to, do you believe God?
	Do you believe what he says?
	Yes, yes.
	I like your slightly shambolic library behind you.
	Well, I'm actually a second-hand book dealer, so this is the corner of my office.
	You're a second-hand book dealer!
	Yeah.
	Stephen, what a fantastic job!
	It's a great job, as long as you don't want to make any money.
	So if you love books, if you love working with books and all that sort of stuff, it's amazing.
	And it was great for the first, like, nine months of lockdown because, you know, everyone wanted stuff delivered to their home and that sort of thing.
	But, yeah, that was the only time I've really made a proper profit.
	Oh!
	But please take this opportunity to plug your bookshop now.
	What's it called?
	We'll all be flocking.
	Well, yeah, so I obviously just started doing this for a bit of fun in my spare time at university.
	And then you ring up HMRC because someone tells you you need to register.
	They're like, what's the business called?
	It doesn't have a name.
	It's just me selling books.
	They're like, I've got to put something in this field.
	So it's called Stephen White Books.
	So there you go.
	Yeah, it's pretty inventive.
	It does what it says on the tin.
	Yeah.
	And do you specialise?
	Not really.
	We sell anything and everything.
	I do.
	I love the Christian stuff, but I'm not a Christian book dealer because I know a lot of Christians.
	I get quite a lot of that stuff coming my way.
	I do a lot of work with public libraries, clearing out stuff that they don't want anymore, house clearances, all that sort of stuff.
	Do you...
	Because obviously you're a fellow, presumably a fellow tinfoil hat, complete lunatic who believes in crazy stuff like God creating the world in six days.
	I find the world of...
	Secondhand books very interesting because it seems to me that over time the rulers of the darkness of this world, if you like, have been seeking to suppress a lot of books and take them out of circulation, books that tell us the truth.
	And I imagine you must come across volumes which are really quite hard to get hold of that give us insights that they, whoever they are, are trying to suppress.
	Oh, definitely.
	And one of the frustrating things is having so many books and not having the time to read them all.
	And so I'll see things and think, that is incredible.
	I must put that on my shelf.
	And they do on the shelf, and they sit there for a few years.
	But yeah, there's definitely stuff that you can't get hold of now.
	Yeah, because there's a lot of the print-on-demand stuff, and if it's in the public domain, technically you can print it.
	But every now and then I get someone contacting me and saying, have you actually got a copy of this in stock?
	Because I literally can't get it anywhere in the world.
	So, yeah, they are trying to clamp down on...
	Have you...
	Yeah.
	They haven't got full control yet.
	What's your best ever find?
	You must have had a magical find that...
	Yeah, I think my favourite...
	Well, two favourites.
	I've got a first edition copy of The Vindication of the Rights of Woman by Mary Wollstonecraft.
	Now, I'm not a feminist, but that's a pretty pivotal book.
	And to have a first edition of that is pretty cool.
	But it's now in Geneva Bible.
	Okay.
	Full Old and New Testament.
	What do they go for?
	Really good, Nick.
	Okay.
	It's only about a grand, but it's not for sale.
	My son is into collecting old books, and he found something pretty amazing the other day.
	What was it?
	It was a...
	It was a G.K. Chesterton, Father Brown book, inscribed to the priest on whom he based Father Brown.
	Oh, wow.
	No way!
	That is amazing.
	Yeah, I love stuff like that.
	And he found it.
	Yeah, well, this happens.
	A lot of people, the books come in in such huge volumes.
	They just throw them up online.
	Which we do a little bit as well.
	But stuff can easily slip through the net.
	Interestingly for the Christians who are like Christian hardcoreists, I've got a copy of Milton's works, which once belonged to Horatius Bonner, the Scottish hymn writer.
	So he's quite a big deal in the Christian hymn writing world.
	And it's cool to know that this once sat in his library while he was composing his hymns and his sermons.
	Has it got more than earlier?
	Not much, unfortunately.
	Before we go, I must nip downstairs and get a copy of a book that somebody gave me, which I'm wondering whether you've come across.
	But let's do Psalm 34. Now, I imagine that you, being one of them evangelicals, don't use the Book of Common Prayer version, which is my favourite, I think.
	Yes, you'd be right.
	But I am one of those evangelicals who absolutely adores the authorized version.
	So that is the Bible that inhabits my mind completely.
	So I have a great respect for Coverdale, like his work.
	We wouldn't have the authorized version without people like Tyndale and Coverdale.
	And their work is beautiful and poetic.
	And I was talking to my kids about it and saying, you know, if you're comparing the differences between the Bibles of that time...
	And the Bibles of this time, they are all so close.
	And the ones we've got today, they're just a pile of pants.
	They don't even come close to any of those Bibles from the 1500s, 1600s.
	So the authorised writing is the Bible of my choice, but it will be so similar in general when you read from Coverdale that I've got no problem with that.
	Where are you on the Masoretic text versus the Septuagint?
	I'm a little bit...
	Yeah, so I'm a Masoretic text guy.
	I'm not entirely...
	Yeah, I'm not entirely convinced about the history of the Septuagint.
	I think that's a lie.
	I can't prove it.
	It's hard to prove this old stuff.
	But the general line I take is that...
	Yeah.
	...through...
	And I don't think he hid things like Codex Sinaiticus in the Monastery of St. Catharines until Tischendorf found it in the late 1800s.
	And suddenly, finally, we know what God's Word is because we found, oh, the Dead Sea Scrolls.
	Now, they're interesting.
	They're confirmatory.
	They really help us see the text has barely changed.
	But if you want to know where the text that God blesses is, it's been with his people in constant use for the last 2,000 years.
	Yeah.
	The text of the Old Testament is the Masoretic text basically represents the text that Christians used for 2,000 years.
	That's interesting.
	I'd call your approach the kind of trust the plan approach, which I... Yeah, you could call it that.
	I call it trust God approach, but yeah, I can go with that.
	I'm on a slightly different rabbit hole on that one, because I'm just not...
	Okay, look.
	Look, for example, at the Pope.
	Now, I don't think that God is thinking, this is the guy I really love running the Catholic Church.
	I mean, obviously, he's working towards God's plan unwittingly, but he is definitely a wronger.
	So, one looks at different aspects of the church and one sees satanic involvement in so many places.
	And it seems to me that if you extend that argument, then it is entirely possible that...
	That the church has been infiltrated with texts which are misleading.
	Because my take on the Septuagint is that it is a translation of an earlier Hebrew text which is no longer existent.
	I mean, wouldn't it be fantastic if we could find the original translation?
	The original Hebrew text.
	I mean, maybe it's in the Vatican Library or maybe it's been burned by the forces of darkness.
	You don't know.
	But the Merceretic texts...
	Well, I actually...
	I actually think God has destroyed...
	I think God's taken it out of circulation because we know what people do with these things.
	They venerate them, they worship the text, like the document themselves.
	This is the constant refrain of the children of Israel, like worshipping the stuff that God gave them as good things instead of worshipping the God that gave them.
	So like if we found the Ten Commandments, they would be worshipped if we found the stones.
	And so I actually think God in his...
	God in his providence hasn't given us the original autographs, but he has given us a fully accurate Bible.
	No, no, no, no.
	I'm really enjoying talking to you because you are a man after my own heart.
	Even though we might disagree on detail, I like the way your mind works.
	So what...
	Can I just give you one little intro before we do the psalm in terms of how I ended up coming to love this psalm?
	So I was in a relatively sort of standard evangelical church in Bradford.
	Loved it, loved the people, loved everything that went on there.
	And then COVID hit and me and my wife were literally in shock that the church shut.
	Your church shut?
	We could not believe it.
	Oh yeah, yeah, like everywhere.
	They went online, they did Zoom, church, and all this sort of stuff.
	Rubbish.
	I know, and like, I was like, come on, well, this is what they've asked us to do, I disagree, but come on kids, let's turn the sofa around, we'll face the computer, and we'll try and get...
	They hated it, we hated it, but we tried our best to give it a really good go.
	And then, when we were allowed to meet again by the government, even then, we still didn't go back to meeting in person.
	And I'm not an online person.
	I don't use social media stuff.
	But I get...
	And it's not like I was the only person in the world who believed this was a mistake.
	Me and my wife are sitting there and think, this is insane.
	And we're the only ones who think it's insane.
	And you think you're...
	Because it's normal and you're the only one who disagrees.
	And then my...
	We wanted some soil for his garden.
	We wanted to get rid of some.
	I was like, well, that's a legitimate...
	I worked for the whole time.
	So I was still seeing people at work.
	But I went around to my brother-in-law's and I thought, oh, he was at the same church as...
	They agree.
	And he didn't.
	And I came home, I was like, Layla!
	Layla!
	There's someone else who thinks what we think!
	And when the church went back to meeting eventually, we weren't allowed to sit there.
	But quite likely, because singing transmits deadly viruses.
	It just does.
	You should know that.
	It's really dangerous, yeah.
	Well, I tend to think that if God tells us to do something...
	But the state tells us it's a bad idea.
	Yes.
	The state, you know, they know best.
	So that's what we did.
	We didn't sing.
	And then they said we had to wear a mask.
	And it was just like the straw that broke the camel's back.
	You might think, what a pathetic thing.
	To leave a church over about the wearing of a mask.
	But I just couldn't do it.
	I couldn't do it.
	I was like, God...
	Like, I even felt like I could...
	If I had to, I could wear a mask walking out and around.
	But when I got to church, and with the people of God, worshipping God, I would have to take off there.
	If there was anywhere I wouldn't wear a mask, it was in worship.
	And that was where I was required to.
	I was like, that's it, I'm done.
	I just threw my hands up.
	And I spoke to my brother-in-law.
	He was already much more unhappy than I was.
	And we started our own little church.
	Did you?
	Of outcasts.
	Yeah.
	And we were meeting in our garden.
	And this is the other thing.
	The weather.
	I don't even remember.
	Because there were no planes flying.
	So the weather was gorgeous.
	And it was all...
	Exactly!
	And my niece said, it's almost like God was telling us with the weather that we should be meeting outside.
	Because for me, that wouldn't have been a problem.
	Like, if you're bothered about COVID, fine.
	Still come to church, we're meeting in a field.
	It doesn't matter.
	Like, you're not going to catch anything.
	Even if disagreed on the subject of COVID. Well, so we did that.
	We said, well, we'll meet in our garden.
	Anyone that's scared can just sit further up the garden.
	And so we started meeting in our garden.
	And it turns out there were quite a few of these little groups across the country, but very few of them had a preacher.
	So they would come, and they would meet, and they would sing and pray, and they would read the Bible.
	They didn't have a preacher, and that's something God's given me the ability to do.
	So I started to preach every Sunday, and that's when this psalm became particularly important to me.
	Well, because the first verse is, I will bless the Lord at all times.
	His praise shall continually be in my mouth.
	It was like the motto of my lockdown, even when the police came.
	And fortunately, someone reported us.
	Do you remember?
	There's like a mini lockdown in November.
	In the first year.
	We carried on meeting and someone reported to us.
	Unfortunately, the police came on the Monday as we were tidying up the stuff in the garden that we'd left out from Sunday.
	And they were like, if you meet, if we find that you've got people in your house, then you'll be fined and if you don't pay the fines, we'll have to intervene.
	And so we had a little meeting between us and we were like, well, should we carry on meeting and get in trouble in the garden or should we do something else?
	And so literally we ended up in the woods opposite our house.
	Where the witches normally go.
	And so we met in the woods.
	Yeah, I know.
	It's funny.
	It's like David in this psalm when we get to the context.
	David is meeting, when he's writing Psalm 34, he's in a cave with the outcasts and the brigands and the poor and the robes of his society.
	Unless that was us.
	We were in the woods freezing our butts off, but genuinely worshipping and singing praise to God.
	And it was some of the most special times ever.
	What a great story.
	It's interesting, isn't it?
	Because I generally tend to think of evangelicals as pretty much the hardcore of what you said at the beginning.
	I mean, mind you, the Presbyterians, the Calvinists seem to be quite...
	Yes.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	They're part of that fold, I would think.
	And then again, the Latin mass Catholics, they're hardcore.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, it's interesting.
	My brother-in-law's mother-in-law is a hardcore Catholic, and she was disgusted at the behaviour of the Catholic Church.
	And if our church had stayed open, our evangelical church, she'd have come there.
	She'd have gone to any church with their doors open.
	And for a Catholic, that's a big statement.
	And, of course, we should mention the Orthodox.
	There was nowhere to go.
	I think they're pretty rock-solid.
	They are pretty strong on this stuff.
	But isn't it interesting that your evangelical church, which you say most of the congregation would believe that God created the world, they would be well versed in their scripture.
	And yet they don't get the basic point that, well, I mean, on the subject of mass, thou shalt open my lips, O Lord, and my mouth shall show thy praise.
	I mean, there's no mention of, thou shalt obscure my mouth, O Lord, and thou shalt cover it with a face nappy.
	Yeah, the scriptures are full of this language about...
	Yeah, we're supposed to greet each other with holy kisses.
	Like to...
	Behold the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus.
	This image of when Moses went up the mountain and he saw God and his face shone.
	And he changed us so important in our worship.
	And yet we were told, no, you can't.
	You can't show that bit of you for fear.
	And that is a real thing in this psalm, is who do you fear?
	Yes.
	Well, we can come to that in a moment.
	So, yeah.
	So we've got the opening line, which I love your anecdote.
	I will always give thanks unto the Lord.
	His praise shall ever be in my mouth, is the version that...
	So that's a great...
	Now I understand why you are so keen to do Psalm 34. Because, I mean, is it one of the top?
	Is it generally one of the rated psalms?
	Is it one of the top ten?
	I think it's got some verses that people know.
	So, like, taste and see that the Lord is good is in Psalm 34. Taste and see how gracious the Lord is.
	So, yeah, I reckon...
	Yeah, so I reckon it's probably a top, a top 50, top 30, but probably not a top 10 for most people.
	But for me, it's a top 10. Um, so, uh, hang on.
	Yes, my shot, my, I like, I like this line.
	Did you, yeah.
	Do you want to read the whole thing out?
	I'll do it at the beginning.
	We'll just do it like that.
	Oh, gotcha.
	You fill it in.
	It took me ages to learn this one.
	Some psalms come easily.
	Some are a bit harder.
	My soul shall make her boast in the Lord.
	The humble shall hear thereof and be glad.
	I like that one.
	What do you think David's talking about there?
	Yeah.
	Well, do you know the context to the psalm at all before we study it?
	OK, so, you know, you know how it's a bit frustrating sometimes how Bibles put little headers to all the chapters to tell you what's coming.
	Well, people have come to then assume that anything that comes above the chapter isn't inspired.
	But there are some headings in the psalms which are inspired.
	So the heading of this psalm is a psalm of David where he changed his behavior before Abimelech.
	who drove him away and he departed.
	And so I don't know if you know the story, it's in 1 Samuel 21, and David's on the run.
	You know, Saul's after him.
	David is going to be king, but Saul's not taking it lying down.
	And David comes to the priest, who is called Ahimelech, and says, I'm hungry and I need weapons.
	What have you got?
	And the priest says, well, I've only got holy bread.
	And David's like, that'll do.
	And he's like, well, have the men at least kept away from women for three days?
	And David's like, yeah, sure.
	And so he gets the holy bread.
	And then he's like, have you got any I haven't got anything.
	I've got one sword.
	It's Goliath's sword.
	You know it.
	The one that you cut his head off with when you killed him.
	And David says, there is none like that.
	Give it to me.
	So David leaves Abimelech with some holy bread and Goliath's sword.
	And again, I believe the Bible, when it says Goliath was about six feet taller than David, I believe that.
	I think it was an actual giant.
	We know that from Genesis 6, is it?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, that's right.
	He's a descendant of the fallen angels.
	And he's there.
	Yeah, in those days and also after that, like in David's time.
	So the sword of Goliath is going to be a beast.
	It's probably more like a broadsword or a claymore.
	So David's got this pretty conspicuous sword.
	And then he needs to go on the run because Doeg the Edomite sees him in the temple and David has to run away.
	And guess which city he ends up outside of?
	Gath.
	Where Goliath is from.
	Yes.
	So David is on the run from his enemies and ends up They're vanquished, looking very conspicuous, and he's like, oh dear.
	Now, they recognise him, and he goes, now I'm in trouble.
	And he does the weirdest thing.
	He says he changed his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrambled his sword upon his beard.
	He's like, the only way I'm going to get out of this is...
	Totally mad.
	And he foams at the mouth and they go, because I think they think madness is catching, they go like, get this nutter out of here.
	And that's the context in which he writes this psalm.
	Isn't that really interesting?
	What a great backstory.
	It's like something out of the Wagner or the Lord of the Rings or something.
	It's just crazy stuff.
	So, David was, well, relatively not that big.
	How do you think he could hold this sword?
	It must have been very heavy.
	Well, he...
	It must have been.
	He wasn't.
	We know he was a strong man.
	Because he talked...
	It's one of my favourite descriptions.
	He talked when he's telling...
	When he killed a lion, he said, I took him by the beard and smote him.
	So he killed a lion with his bare hands.
	And so he...
	He was a pretty strong warrior, so I guess he would have had to use it two-handed, because the swords at those times were a bit shorter than, like, the long swords that we sometimes see.
	They're more like the Roman sword, so they're shorter.
	So Goliath's shorter sword would be like our long swords, but a two-handed job for David, I would assume.
	I would have thought, yeah.
	I wonder what happened to the sword.
	I mean, I wonder whether...
	Oh, I know.
	Because all this stuff like the Ark of the Covenant is either in Ethiopia or Wales, supposedly.
	Once you get to the stage where you realise that this is not crazy made-up stuff that people invented in order to justify their fear of Explain the fear of death.
	Once you realise it's all real, then you start, well...
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of this stuff turned up.
	It also wouldn't surprise me if this stuff had turned up, and it is in the hands of the enemy.
	Because they love artefacts.
	Their magic, which is like a counterfeit of God's power, relies on mysticism and they see power in these objects.
	And so it wouldn't surprise me if Goliath's sword is in the hands of some dark entity.
	A classic example of that is Raiders of the Lost Ark, isn't it?
	Where the bad guys, according to Spielberg, I think Spielberg is part of the psyop.
	The baddies are after the Holy Grail because they know it gives them special powers, or they think it can, although of course it will destroy them in the end.
	Do you know...
	Yeah, they basically have to cheat codes.
	They just want to cheat their way to the things that God actually offers for free for those that will humble themselves before him and worship him.
	But that's the one thing they will not do.
	Yeah, I must say, it is good to be on team God rather than on team Satan.
	We get a better deal, generally, I think.
	In every way.
	Even though, as we see from this, there might be some temporary problems in this life.
	The big picture is always worth it.
	So, praise the Lord with me and let us magnify his name together.
	That's...
	Yeah, and that's why this was so special to me, because there's a corporate element to this.
	We were never intended to be Christians on our own, hidden away in our little houses, just communing directly between us and God.
	David, he's been through this ordeal, he's with his band of reprobates, and he's talking to them, oh magnify the Lord with me, let us exalt his name together.
	And that is one of the most special things we can do as Christians, is to get together to sing praises to the Lord.
	Well, singing is just an amazing thing.
	God invented it, for a start, and that's why the devil uses it, because he knows its power.
	But God's worship has great power, and we need to recognise that.
	The impression I get is that God very much likes being worshipped.
	It's part of the deal.
	Yes, yeah, it is definitely part of the deal.
	And it seems very reasonable to me, although this is something that Satan mocks in Paradise Lost.
	He talks about war-balled hymns, and he's saying, look, you know, do you really want to be just sucking up to God?
	Wouldn't you rather be down me in the pit of fire in the late...
	that's that's right yeah yeah yeah and it's it's yeah have you ever been like let's even take the like the religious aspect out of it are there times i know you used to be in the rave scene by the sounds are there times when music has transported you in a way that nothing else has like there is such power in it and and of course the devil will use that power but when milt when when i i don't know what to think about milton i love his work but But
	if we think, if that's what Satan is trying to portray, that is not an accurate The worship of God that's going on in heaven.
	The worship of God that's going on in heaven is the most transformative, fulfilling, sensory thing that we could never experience here, but we get tiny glimpses of when we feel the power of music moving us in ways that nothing else can.
	So it's not like sitting in your Church of England assembly waiting for it to be over because it sounds dreadful.
	That's what he wants you to think.
	And this is the caricature people have of God.
	It's like, oh, you Christians, you're just going to sit there and it's going to be boring.
	It's going to be more engaging than any concert, any worship service that's ever existed.
	That's what God made us for.
	In my youth, my transformative music that would take me to another place would have been things like...
	Jimmy Page guitar solos in Led Zeppelin.
	But the interesting thing is, I'm sure you know that Lucifer was in charge of music before he was cast out of heaven, which is why he works through rock musicians and stuff, you know, why you can do Jimmy Page guitar solos.
	But there was something I always felt about Led Zeppelin, which is obviously really steeped in Satanism.
	I heard the other day that, you know Hotel California?
	You think it's...
	I know that's an Eagles song.
	You think that's going to be set in California, but actually, apparently, I heard a story that it was Boleskine House, which is where Jimmy Page's house in Scotland, which used to belong to Alistair Crowley.
	And that...
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's the Alistair Crowley house.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	But that makes a lot of sense.
	Listening to Led Zeppelin, It's quite interesting.
	Although it transports you to another place and to a form of ecstasy, There's something disturbing about it.
	There's something that the effect it has on you.
	It creates a kind of melancholy and a sort of despair almost, which is weird.
	It's an undercurrent, which you don't get, say, from Bach.
	When you listen to Bach, you feel transported to a higher realm.
	Led Zeppelin, it's great, but it's a simulation of...
	Exactly.
	And so we can use that, we can say to people, do you feel that hook?
	And it gets you, and it pulls you, and you can't explain it.
	But you're right, it's pulling you somewhere you need to be very careful of.
	We can say that is a twisted version of what God actually intended, and we see it in the classical music of people like Bach, but we also see it in the hymns of people like Charles Wesley.
	Like, there is a hook there that will get in you and pull you to the right place.
	And my most transformative moments in song have been singing the hymns of Charles Wesley.
	They are another level of Christian experience.
	What's your favourite Wesley hymn?
	I'm trying to think what they are.
	That's a very hard question.
	It might be Love Divine, or Jesus the Name High Over All.
	I mean, And Can It Be is a bit...
	Of a classic.
	But there's a reason why it's so well known and loved.
	It depends on the tune, doesn't it?
	Wesley wrote the words, wasn't it?
	The tunes can help or hinder.
	Yes, pretty much.
	Yeah, he wrote the words and other people wrote the tunes on the whole.
	But when they come together...
	They are.
	But even as poetry, they move and transport.
	Because poetry has that effect as well.
	All the arts are designed by God.
	Well, poetry is the word, isn't it?
	So, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	It's like the first thing Adam says is...
	Like, what is that if it's not poetry?
	Like, it's just, it's all the way through the Bible.
	I meet people, yeah, I'm not very well educated, but I'm very much in favour of people getting whatever education they can.
	And people are like, oh, I can't stand poetry.
	And it was like, if you're a Christian, God writes whole books of poetry.
	Like, you've got to get your mind into that.
	And I used to look down on, like, art because I couldn't do it.
	I was a rubbish painter and drawer.
	So I used to look down on it.
	And now I've had to completely change my view.
	God made art.
	He makes beautiful things.
	And our job is to express ourselves in any way that is fitting with his character.
	And art is one of those ways.
	All of those things are important.
	And I think we need to encourage each other in this.
	I think what the verse is trying to tell us to do.
	Oh, magnify the Lord with me.
	Let us exalt his name together.
	I think we need more of that.
	Because actually, as we're going to see, that is the...
	That is the counterbalance to the darkness.
	This is real, and you'll know this.
	You've probably spent more time researching this than I have.
	There's so much darkness out there, it can feel like it's able to swallow you up.
	There is a whole heap of darkness that even a lot of people who are a lot of awake people, as it were, I think they mentally discount it because it's so horrible they don't want to go there.
	But you can't discount it.
	I'm totally with people who don't want to spend time thinking about it.
	There's the line in the epistle where Paul says, you know, think about good things, don't think about nasty things.
	But at the same time, one can't sort of pretend it isn't there.
	Because I think it does a disservice to the victims.
	Kids are dying every day.
	We're just going to go, oh yeah, but let's not think about it because it's too horrid.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	He mentions this in Ephesians.
	Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
	Well, how can you reprove something if you don't even know it exists?
	And the next verse tells us to be careful about getting lost in the detail.
	You know, because it's a shame to...
	I think you had a guest South African gentleman who had come out of Satanism.
	And I was very careful about detail.
	It wasn't gory, it wasn't gratuitous, but it was very clear about the evil practices, the kind of things that go on, and we are to reprove them.
	And again, in 2 Corinthians it says, we are not ignorant of Satan's devices.
	Oh, we shouldn't be.
	We should know what's going on in the world.
	And often the challenge, we need to know what's going on in our own hearts.
	Because that is also a challenge that is often overlooked by the people who focus on Satanism.
	Great, we need to know about that.
	But you'd be amazed at this.
	And it hasn't necessarily been put there by anyone else other than my evil heart.
	And so we need to be aware of enemies without the old man within.
	And I think a lot of Christians in my ilk are very focused on the inward battle.
	Rightly so.
	You know, like Jesus said, lust in your heart is a problem.
	Anger in your heart is a problem.
	We focus on that.
	But they're pretty ignorant about it.
	Hmm.
	When you try to talk to her about it.
	The Prince of Darkness is next level when it comes to creating snares for us.
	He's really good at his game.
	He's been practising for years.
	And we're really good at falling for the same tricks.
	We just keep doing it.
	I mean, that's the thing.
	Sin wouldn't be a problem if it were just kind of so obviously repellent that...
	Exactly.
	When the Bible has to keep telling you something, it's kind of prone to keep falling for it.
	But the next line is, I think, pretty much the commonest sentiment.
	In the Psalms, which I sought the Lord and he heard me.
	Yea, he delivered me out of all my fear.
	Now, you know that do not be afraid is the most common injunction in the Bible.
	But the Psalms are very reassuring, which is why I commend learning the Psalms to everyone.
	And what it says is, look, put your trust in the Lord and he will take care of it.
	He's got your back.
	That's right.
	We can trust that, can't we?
	I hope.
	Yeah.
	We have to trust that.
	Because nothing else is trustworthy.
	And that's why the Psalms are written.
	It's one of the reasons the Psalms are written.
	Because David's been there.
	David has been in the place where everyone hated him.
	Where his life was on the line.
	And God delivered him out of all his fears.
	So he's speaking from his experience.
	And then God nails it down in his word and sets it...
	Forever for us to have a testimony of this is what happens to the man that trusts in the Lord.
	And so, yeah, we have to trust it.
	We have no other hope.
	If this doesn't...
	Yeah.
	And I see people like that.
	You'll have talked to them, I'm sure.
	They know all about the devil, they know all about Satanism, Luciferianism and all that sort of stuff, but they don't trust God and they have no rock in their life.
	There's nothing they can stand on that they can actually believe.
	I can't believe anything anymore.
	Well, we can.
	We know that all those, and I loved it when you were talking to Doug Wilson, which is actually my intro episode to you, which a few years ago my friend said, oh, James Dellingpole's interviewed Doug Wilson.
	I was like, I think you must have misunderstood that, because James Dellingpole's like a journalist who does good stuff about climate change, and Doug Wilson's a Christian, and they're like, no, no, you need to listen to this.
	And so that was my intro to you, and I've been an avid listener ever since.
	But you asked him, like, what's happened to me?
	And he was like, God has saved you.
	Like, you've been changed.
	You sought the Lord, and he heard you.
	And it's mysterious and we don't quite understand, but that is, it actually makes a difference in our lives.
	When we seek him, he hears us and he delivers us.
	And every Christian can testify to that.
	You're right, it's probably the most common sentiment in the Psalms.
	But I'm still puzzled by it, because I wasn't consciously seeking him.
	That's why I feel kind of lucky.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Blessed.
	Yes.
	Yeah, well, he is gracious, you see.
	And that's the whole point.
	None of us deserve this.
	You didn't deserve it.
	I didn't deserve it.
	The whole point is that he's a good God.
	That's what grace means.
	He dishes out good things to people who don't deserve it.
	And it might well be on the back of someone you don't know praying, who prayed for you.
	Maybe.
	Or things like that.
	But it's nothing in you, that's for sure.
	Yeah.
	And it's nothing in me.
	Well, well...
	Because, actually, have we had the...
	Yeah, well, we had it in verse 2. My soul shall make her boast in the Lord.
	Because if it was something in us, what could we boast in?
	We'd be boasting in ourselves.
	But actually, we get to say, nothing good in me, but isn't God great?
	Because he did this for me, and I didn't deserve any of it.
	I don't know what it sounds like in your version.
	They had an eye unto him and were lightened, and their faces were not ashamed.
	What does that mean?
	Yeah, so I think it's echoing Moses on the mountain.
	So this is the experience of when you come to God face to face, you are changed by that meeting.
	So when Moses spoke to God on Mount Sinai, and it uses that expression face to face, as a man talketh with his brother.
	Moses, when he came down from the mountain, his face was literally shining so much, they had to put a veil over it.
	The people couldn't bear to look on him because he'd been changed by time with God.
	That's what this is.
	They looked unto him, so the people looked to God, and were lightened, and their faces were not ashamed.
	Knowing God, trusting God, calling out to him, changes us.
	And it starts to become obvious to people around us.
	And then we get a line which is repeated quite a lot in different forms in the psalm.
	Lo, the poor crieth, and the Lord heareth him, yea, and saveth him out of all his troubles.
	So there's a sort of mantra-like repetition of this theme, just in case you didn't get the message first time, which is nice.
	Mm-hmm.
	Yeah, again, because we need to keep hearing it.
	Because we need reminding that if we do cry out, God will save us.
	But we do need to cry out.
	And we're sometimes loath to, or slow to, but here we find that he always hears the calls.
	And then we've got the angel of the Lord tarrieth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
	Who is the angel of the Lord in this instance?
	Yeah.
	So that is discussed and debated amongst the commentators.
	Some people think every time it says the angel of the Lord, it's talking about the second person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ.
	I don't think that could be the case every time, for sure.
	For example, in Luke's Gospel, when they go to the tomb...
	It says, the angel of the Lord sat above the tomb and said, he is not here, he is risen.
	So it'd be struggling to be Jesus if the angel says he's not here.
	But there are other occasions where it does very much sound like it's God.
	The other option is that he is, if you like, the chiefest of the angels that haven't fallen, possibly the archangel Michael.
	Or some people think it's just the angel sent to do this job by the Lord.
	But it seems more definite to me than that.
	He seems like a character in his own right.
	So I tend to go with he is the chiefest of the angels that haven't fallen, whether that's Michael or someone else.
	When I've been reciting that psalm to myself, I've thought of it as Michael.
	I'd quite like to meet the archangel Michael, wouldn't you?
	But I also know that every time everyone meets me, they fall on their face and they're petrified.
	That's true.
	Although I... You've probably heard this before, that I know of two people who've contacted me to say that they've seen angels.
	And it was great.
	I mean, they were just blown away by it.
	Well, yeah, so there is something different about this covenant.
	In the New Covenant, in the New Testament, after the cross, our position is different.
	So in Psalm 8, I think you've done Psalm 8, where it says, Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and crowned him with glory and honour.
	So our natural position as human beings is below the angels.
	But what the New Testament does in Christ is elevate us above the angels.
	Now the angels are ministering spirits, sent to minister, I think this is Hebrews, to us upon whom the ends of the world have come.
	So actually, it's been flipped.
	We were below the angels, and now the angels of God minister to us.
	So it doesn't surprise me that in the new covenant...
	John does still fall at the feet of angels in Revelation.
	But that's because they're pointing majesty and glory to impress upon him what he's supposed to learn and hear.
	But that's not their normal job for us.
	Their normal job for us is to minister to us, I think to protect us, and to aid us in what God has sent us to do.
	So it would be weird if they then came and petrified us.
	So I can believe the stories of people who've Yes, I'm glad you said that, because there are some Christians who would say, look, this is the work of the devil.
	This is the devil appearing to people, taking the form of angels.
	But nothing about either anecdote I heard suggested to me that this is anything other than a positive and holy experience.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But that is a good point to bring in.
	We do believe that the devil...
	Yes.
	...was abandoned.
	And so we do need to be on our...
	Because I'm sure there are people who have been hoodwinked.
	I mean, I get the trash books in all the time about people who've communed with angels, and the angel told them this, and it does not lead them to God.
	It's leading them away from God.
	And so I believe those are fallen angels, disguising themselves as good angels to deliberately lead people away from God.
	I'm quite interested in that.
	I mean, you presumably read quite a lot of books about things like what happens when you die, the near-death experiences, stuff like that.
	Yeah.
	Lots of blurbs, not lots of the books.
	I have read some, but I find them laughable.
	My wife's been ahead of me on this sort of stuff for quite a few years.
	She's been much more aware of the darkness.
	I used to put most of them down to charlatanism and people just mucking about.
	And actually I've very much come around to the others.
	So I used to find these books laughable and just silly.
	Now I find them dark.
	So I don't read them.
	I don't engage with them.
	Yeah.
	Maybe you can give me some of your favourite films.
	Favourite books towards the end of the podcast, what you think is really...
	I've still got to go and find this book that I love.
	Yeah, yeah, that would be good.
	Oh, taste and see how gracious the Lord is.
	Blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
	I like the notion of taste and see how gracious the Lord is.
	What's that about?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, because, well, it's an invitation.
	So David has experienced this.
	So he knows what he's talking about.
	And it's what we offer to people.
	People are sceptical.
	They're like, yeah, maybe the God thing is true.
	Come and try it.
	Come and see.
	Come to our church, if that's what you want to.
	Come and, come and.
	It's like, you look at the fruit and think, but once you bite into it, That whole sensory explosion goes off.
	And that's what we're inviting people to do.
	Come and...
	Whether it's a psalm, whether it's a worship service, whether it's hearing someone tell their testimony of what God has done in their life.
	Taste and see.
	And it's almost causal.
	Once you taste, you will see.
	Taste and see that the Lord is good.
	The problem is some people...
	Some people then don't put their trust in him.
	That's why it goes on to say, blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
	Because people have tasted and then walked away from what God has shown them.
	But that's the invitation.
	We're not responsible for their responses.
	The next line is...
	We're on to the fear thing, which I wanted to talk about.
	Oh, fear the Lord, ye that are his saints.
	For they that fear him lack nothing.
	Now...
	I often wondered about this word, fear.
	What do you understand by this injunction to fear the Lord?
	Yeah, so people who I respect and look up, they say, the word fear, if you look it up in Hebrew and Greek, means fear.
	And we're very careful, and I think rightly so, to delineate there are different types of fear.
	But it does still mean fear.
	And so there is a kind of fear that is spoken against in the New Testament, which you might call a craven fear, where we cower ready to be smitten by the God who hates us.
	But it's interesting, books of the New Testament, like Hebrews, they're the books which tell us our God is a consuming fire.
	They're the books that tell us about a sorer judgment will fall on us than fell on those at Mount Sinai whose bodies fell in the wilderness if we reject what we've been given.
	So actually this is, I think this is probably the main thing that is lacking in mainline Protestantism and evangelicalism, is the fear of the Lord.
	We don't have a right fear of God.
	I am his child.
	Like, he's been gracious to me.
	I'm part of his family.
	He's given me blessing upon blessing.
	I can call him father and I am still to fear him because he is still God.
	Yes.
	I think, yeah, I mean, I've sort of struggled with this word fear because you're right.
	I mean, it's fear is something you associate with, well, you know, sort of despotic rulers like Ozymandias in the poem, you know.
	Yes.
	It's not something that you necessarily associate it with the loving God that we've been encouraged to worship and stuff.
	But it seems to me that what it's saying to you is always be mindful of where God is.
	That God is number one.
	And if you forget this, you're going to be in trouble.
	Because...
	Yeah.
	And what kind of a number one is he?
	He's not just like one level of angel above Lucifer, like Michael might be one level of angel below Lucifer.
	This is the God who Jesus tells us can destroy soul and body in hell.
	So it's not just remember God, it's remember what he's like, remember his character, and that means his goodness, and we fear him because of his goodness and justice, as equally, not just because of his justice, but also because of his grace and his mercy, and his truth.
	And the old Puritans used to talk about ordering your fears, and you mentioned Ozymandias, that always makes me think of Nebuchadnezzar.
	And you see a rightly ordered fear there in Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.
	I love the imagery.
	The whole plane, it's a plane, it's a flat land.
	Everyone is bowed down and there's three Hebrews stood up because they are more afraid of their God than they are of Nebuchadnezzar.
	Would that I had their faith.
	Would that I could walk into a fiery furnace.
	I talked about this with Dick the other day.
	I think if I walked into a fiery furnace, it would test my faith quite a lot to believe that I was going to be not fried.
	Yeah, and you might be fried, and that's what they said.
	If he doesn't, we're still not going to lie down to your statue.
	So the faith is in God, not in the deliverance.
	I think Johnny mentioned this when he was talking to you, that God doesn't necessarily give you the strength and the faith before the trial.
	We ought to prepare for it by learning psalms, memorising the scripture, but you don't know the sustaining power of God to carry you through that until you're about to go through it.
	Yeah.
	And I think that's the...
	What's distressing is that I think COVID was like a mini, tiny little test of the church's faith in the West in particular.
	And I don't think we did particularly well.
	Doesn't look good, does it?
	Doesn't look good.
	Not at all.
	Could we stand up to a fight?
	Could we stand up to our neighbours thinking we were mad or dangerous or murderers, let alone being thrown into a fiery furnace?
	I go over a bit how much of it was planned, how much of it was using a good opportunity to enact a plan.
	Whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
	It was planned.
	Event 201. On the whole, we fail.
	Well, yeah, it's quite possible.
	But also if these people are opportunists and quite how much was planned, I don't know.
	But what I do know is that I think they used it as a beta test to see what the response was of people in the West.
	I don't think this is the big one.
	My kids always call it, call it the great crash.
	When's the great crash coming?
	I said, I don't know.
	But the point is, we are not to fear.
	We don't fear the devil.
	We don't fear him.
	We don't fear what they can do to us if we rightly fear God.
	And that's what's missing.
	Fear of God.
	You see the way people are casual about God.
	And I don't mean in a way because they know him.
	They're flippant and rude, almost, about God.
	He's like, you're talking about the person who's giving you the breath.
	That reverence, that fear is gone largely in our churches.
	And I think that then means the fear of man takes its place.
	And that's what we've seen.
	You will fear something.
	And if you don't fear God, you'll fear something lesser than God, and you'll submit to that instead.
	And it's so depressing.
	But that unfortunately is, I think, where a lot of people are at in the UK. Now, the next line is one of my favourites, because I always like...
	I love it when animals appear in the Psalms.
	Some put their trust in chariots and some in horses.
	And the scene in Psalm 104 when the lions are going to bed.
	And I always like it when lions appear.
	And here the lions appear.
	The lions do lack and suffer hunger, it says.
	But all they...
	Sorry, but they who seek the Lord shall want no manner of thing that is good.
	I love the idea that Psalm's saying, look, the lions, even the lions, they want and they suffer hunger.
	But they who seek the Lord shall want no manner of thing that is good.
	I like the way he phrases it as well.
	Yeah, it's beautiful, isn't it?
	Beautiful.
	Yeah.
	You've summed up absolutely perfectly.
	Because we look to lions, don't we think?
	They're the strongest of all these wild beasts, these cats.
	And they suffer.
	Yeah.
	They're angry at times.
	The young lions, they're the ones with the strength, the energy.
	But those that trust, how does it say, they that seek the Lord shall not want any good thing.
	That is a beautiful cause.
	And then the next, I like the next lines too.
	I love it when it sounds kind of sonorous and slightly portentous.
	Come ye children and hearken unto me and I will teach you the fear of the Lord.
	Well, here's the fear of the Lord again.
	It's obviously a theme.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I have been...
	Just when I walk into the house.
	Come ye children, hearken unto me.
	It's just fun to say.
	And my kids are used to me now.
	Yeah, so there's actually a...
	Most people think this is the second half of the psalm now, from verse 11. It's sort of two sections.
	One is about praise.
	And we've talked about fear of the Lord, but also magnify him, worship him, extol him together.
	Now we're coming into the teaching section.
	And so it's sort of right that it starts with that very formal, sort of, come, hearken unto me, because I'm about to teach you the fear of the Lord.
	This is good.
	This is bad.
	This is good.
	This is bad.
	This is what we need to go towards.
	This is what you need to come away from.
	And also interestingly, I don't know this because I wouldn't know which way around to hold a Hebrew Bible.
	But apparently this is an acrostic poem.
	What is it?
	In Hebrew.
	So each verse...
	It starts with the letter of the Hebrew alphabet, that's why there's 22 verses, because there are 22 letters in Hebrew.
	So, but yeah, but this is like the pivot point in the psalm to the second section.
	And then, what man is he that lusteth to live, and would fain see a good life?
	Well, that's all of us, surely?
	It's hooking you in.
	It's like, oh yeah, that sounds good.
	I'm good for that.
	Yeah, I'll have some of that.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
	Okay, what do I need to do?
	Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
	Depart from evil and do good.
	Seek peace and pursue it.
	Yeah, well, it's interesting, isn't it, that the Bible generally places a high premium on sort of not bad-mouthing people.
	I mean, bearing false witness is a stoning offence.
	An astonishingly high price, yeah.
	But even on a lesser note, you're sort of not meant to badmouth people, is that what it's saying?
	Speak no God.
	Yeah, and if you look at the book of Jude...
	Guile is like falseness and deliberate trickery.
	But if you look at the book of Jude, it's talking about the kind of people that will infiltrate the church in a bad way.
	The book of Jude is a mighty and a dark book, and it talks about the archangel Michael, when disputing with the devil over the body of Moses, durst not bring a railing accusation against him, but saith, The Lord rebuke thee.
	So even Michael didn't slag the devil off.
	That's a...
	He said the Lord rebuke me.
	That's a tough call, Stephen, because it's quite fun bitching about people.
	It is.
	Well, tell me about it.
	And that's the thing.
	I think that's why we need to be told it.
	Now, again, it doesn't mean we can't rebuke.
	It doesn't mean we can't point out.
	But this is the question.
	Do we want...
	To love life or lust after life and love many days that we may see good.
	God is telling us the way to that is by being careful with our tongues.
	Yes, and there's that bit in James as well, isn't there?
	Where he talks about the tongue being this moment.
	It was a world of fire.
	I'm biased towards James because of his name.
	But at the same time, I'm thinking that's kind of the end of my business model.
	I mean, if I can't be...
	If I can't...
	If I can't be snarky about people, what's left?
	I'm sure God gives me some anyway here.
	I try not to be...
	Well, there is.
	The intent matters a lot.
	And if you look at the Old Testament, there are times for all different kinds of speech.
	There are times for just the straight talking.
	There are times, the Proverbs say, to hold your peace.
	Literally, the best thing you could do to honour God is to shut up.
	But there are also times when you will see the prophets mocking.
	You read Isaiah and he's like, you go and you cut a tree down, you use part of it to heat your food, you use part of it to sit on, and then you...
	And those that don't like it, like, basically you become like a stupid piece of wood if you do this.
	Elijah mocking the prophets of Baal, is your God asleep?
	Like, has he gone on a long journey?
	And I'm slightly hesitant to say some of the things that Ezekiel, I shouldn't be ashamed of the word of God, but Ezekiel describes very graphically the whoredoms.
	of the people of God, how they went after men who were endowed like horses, is the kind of language he uses.
	So there are times and places...
	No, his wife, I think.
	So there are times for it.
	There are times for it.
	But I think those of us who like to speak, like we do, need to be mindful of our tongues because they can easily carry us away.
	Tell me about it.
	And mockery is appropriate, but not all the time.
	So we need to be careful because God wants our best.
	He wants us to live good lives as Christians.
	He wants us to flourish.
	Yeah, and I would.
	And so I need to watch my talk.
	You already mentioned that it's too evil and do good.
	Seek peace and ensue it.
	I don't know.
	I think I'm pretty okay on this.
	I generally do do those things.
	I mean, I do seek peace.
	Well, I've been really impressed with the way you talk to some people on the podcast who I would just...
	I would lose my temper probably.
	I tend to want to go in hard.
	Especially when someone questions the Bible, questions God.
	I live in Bradford.
	I'm used to doing very clear, definite discussions in the street with Muslims.
	And they just want straight talking.
	But you've been very careful.
	Like, in a way that seems to seek peace.
	Like, you talked to the gentleman with the cravat the other day.
	Oh, yeah!
	Richard Voges.
	Yeah, and he was just really, really good.
	He wasn't confrontational.
	He's a guy who's quite sceptical.
	He talks about, you know, a big...
	...way of talking to him that was peaceful.
	I think you parted as friends.
	I think you probably...
	And I think that's something I need to think about as well.
	There is a way of living your life that you don't make everyone...
	Well, I do find that tricky, and you can ask my family about this.
	I went on holiday with my kids recently, and they said, Dad, why have you got no friends left?
	Why does nobody like you?
	Why does everyone you used to know hate you?
	I said, well, that's not...
	I'm sure that's not really true, and if it is the case, it's all...
	On their side, not mine.
	I don't hold grudges against people for different political or religious opinions.
	But the reason is, Stephen, I'm not trying to make myself out to be a saint, because I'm really not.
	It's just that I feel that God has blessed me with this This memory that not so long ago, I was one of those people who didn't know the truth.
	So how could I possibly be...
	It's not for me to judge people who are victims of a military-grade psyop designed to take them away from God and lead them in all manner of...
	You know, I just think, well, if you think that, you know, good luck.
	And also, the other thing is, I think if you come on too hard...
	It frightens the horses.
	People don't want to be harangued into belief.
	Same with awake stuff generally.
	They just need to be encouraged to ask questions.
	That's as far as you'll ever get with them.
	Yeah, you just drop a little thing on it.
	Have you known a wetter spring than this?
	I don't.
	People are like, yeah, it just...
	I noticed there's been loads of those those trails in the sky and that's it you just drop it in and you just walk away but you're right there is a way of doing of doing things where you're you're deliberately going about to just offend people and push people away and actually it's actually required from non-christians from people that are without so like a man that cannot get along with anyone...with office in the church.
	Now, a man that knows how to fight the right enemies is essential.
	Because otherwise you're just going to let the wolves come in and you say, oh, I can't judge anyone, you know, a wolf is just as good as his sheep and then he'll devour the flock.
	But there is something that we need to hear here.
	We need to be able to be peaceful.
	And that doesn't just mean I have to cut people's heads off with a sword.
	I think it means how I act as well in my conversations.
	The people I'm a bit suspicious of are the ones...
	There's been this trend, you must have noticed it, for kind of...
	People who seem to be in the awake camp, suddenly discovering God and talking about it, and I see all sorts of trickery and skullduggery going on there, and I haven't got much time for those people.
	Yeah, I have a take-it-all, wait-and-see approach to it.
	I think, I'd simply say, well, what would happen if someone's, well, what happened when God saved Yes.
	The first thing that happened is nobody believed him.
	God comes to Ananias and says, right, go and see Paul.
	He's like, no, I know that guy, I'm not going to him.
	And God's like, don't worry, he's praying, I'm going to send you to there.
	So there is a kind of healthy scepticism when you know someone's passed, but God really did save Saul of Tarsus.
	But it did take some time.
	It did take some time for the church to do it.
	And Paul spends, it seems to me, putting the chronology together with the Lord Jesus privately and personally before he really became known to the church.
	And so I would advise, if someone said, like, I'm a big name, not that anyone's talking to me, but if someone said, I'm a massive name and I've just become a genuine Christian, I would say, you need to tell people.
	It's important to be clear about your faith.
	But you're not now, instantly, the spokesperson for all Christians everywhere.
	You should learn a little bit first.
	Get yourself in a church with a pastor you can respect, or the Christians that can mentor and disciple you, and learn something.
	And it's when I see people, it's like they've adopted the mantle of spokespersons for awake Christians.
	That's the kind of thing that makes me...
	I'm careful.
	I'm genuinely saved and they've just got so much enthusiasm for their new faith that they don't know what to do with it.
	But there is a scepticism in me that knows that these things can be either faked or just chosen because this is the path that will get you along the next step of following you.
	Or it could be part of the Luciferian counter plan for gods.
	Completely.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Would you just...
	Yeah, so we need to be careful of that.
	Excuse me a moment.
	I'm going to get that book and...
	Oh, hang on.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Well, I'd have been disappointed if there wasn't some sort of interruption on a DelinPod interview.
	It would have felt very out of character.
	Oh, yeah, but actually the sound is not as good now.
	Yeah, I wondered that.
	Let me try the microphone on the speaker.
	No, the microphone's terrible.
	I can't hear a word now.
	Can you go back to the original thing you were doing?
	I'll try it, yeah.
	Yeah, suddenly I just can't hear anything.
	It's really odd.
	Can you hear me now?
	Can you hear me now?
	I can hear you through my ear.
	No, no, that's coming out of your ear.
	Yeah.
	It's coming out of the laptop, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But that's, at least it's coming through.
	It wasn't doing that earlier.
	Let me see if I can get these connected.
	Right, so it says it's connected.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Can you hear?
	It's still coming out though.
	No, it's not.
	It's coming out of your speakers still.
	That should be my headphones now.
	Um...
	Yep, that's it.
	Yeah?
	Yeah.
	Good.
	Okay.
	So, um...
	Yeah, I would...
	So we've got the next line.
	The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers.
	Well, that's good news, isn't it?
	It is, yeah.
	Because we'd be stuffed without it.
	But the psalmist always makes these kinds of distinctions between the righteous and the unrighteous.
	And the question is, which side are you going to be on?
	And the righteous here is not those that have proved their righteousness to God by their good deeds.
	These are the ones that earlier called out for God for mercy, and he gives them mercy by making them righteous.
	That's why Christ went to the cross.
	To take away our sin and to give us His righteousness.
	And so even though we are enjoined, as we were talking earlier, to be careful with our tongues, to be careful to seek peace, that's not what makes us righteous.
	We don't come to God and say, look, I've been such a good boy.
	Please hear my cry.
	That's why we always pray our prayers in Jesus' name.
	Amen.
	Because we're asking God to consider us righteous for Christ's sake, for what he's given to us as his gift.
	And then, well, will he say no to his son?
	Of course not.
	So his ears will always be open to the righteous because we come to him in Jesus' name.
	And Jesus takes our requests and presents them to God.
	So there's actually great confidence for the Christian that God always hears us.
	And he hears us for Jesus' sake.
	Yes.
	Yeah, yeah.
	The Lord is nigh unto them.
	Sorry, sorry, no, we missed out a line.
	The countenance of the Lord is against them that do evil, to root out the remembrance of them from the earth.
	So he doesn't like, he just wants to erase, completely erase.
	The bad is.
	It's a frightening thought, isn't it?
	Not soon enough, I have to say.
	His timing is good, even if it's not what we would choose.
	Yeah, because it's interesting that the saints in Revelation who've been put to death for God are crying out, how long, O Lord?
	They are.
	It's the cry of every Christian, God, can this be over soon?
	Please put an end to this.
	And he knows what he's doing.
	He reassures them.
	He gives them great gifts.
	He gives them white robes to wear and stuff like that.
	But yeah, the ordinary Christians should be concerned if there's nothing in them that looks at what's going on and says, when is this going to end?
	But it will one day.
	I'm reading...
	I'm reading Revelation at the moment.
	It does your head in, doesn't it?
	It's really trippy.
	It can be confusing.
	Yeah.
	Just weird.
	Yeah.
	The sea of...
	Well, I was just reminded of that...
	You know that song, Holy, Holy, Holy?
	Mm-hmm.
	Casting down their golden crowns upon the glassy sea.
	Yeah.
	That must be a line out of Revelation.
	It is, exactly.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, it is.
	yeah yeah yeah I mean I it is pretty big stuff um But I really find great comfort in it.
	Even if I don't understand what every tiny little detail means, I do get the big picture that Jesus overcomes everything.
	Those who are lost in the blood of the Lamb are fully victorious at the end, and all evil is crushed and put under his feet.
	And that's good.
	Like you say, I want to be on Team God on that day.
	Well, also, you know, I know it's supposed to be about faith rather than proofs, but I like the Turin Shroud.
	I think it is proof.
	And I also like the fact that the number of testimonies you get from people who understand how the dark world operates, demons, All bow to the name of Jesus.
	Yes, yeah.
	I mean, if there were a demonology, I mean, I'm not saying Jesus is a demon, he's not, but he is more powerful than all of them.
	Even the really quite serious ones like Moloch and Baal.
	Oh yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	So the Bible uses, again, I'm no Hebrew scholar, but the Bible uses the term Elohim a lot in the Old Testament.
	And that means, like, the powers.
	And God is the power of the powers.
	He's the Elohim of the Elohim.
	So all of these powers, they really are powerful.
	They really have power.
	And Jesus is the God of those gods.
	He is over all of them.
	And you're right, they have to bow.
	Before his name.
	Yeah.
	So why would you settle for second best?
	That's what I don't care.
	Why would people go with team loser?
	Yeah.
	Well, it promises you a lot right now.
	If what you care about is money and sex and fame and prestige, then you can get all that now.
	If what you don't have to do is humble yourself before God, and admit how rubbish you are.
	That's right, yeah.
	And you get...
	Yeah, that's coming back on people now, isn't it?
	Dear me.
	Yeah.
	It's just...
	I feel sorry for all this.
	I tell you what, I've completely lost any desire I might have had to be a rock star.
	Not that it was ever likely.
	Yes, that's right.
	With my axe skills.
	But nevertheless, I really, really do not want to be...
	If somebody came to me, we're going to make you bigger than Taylor Swift from tomorrow.
	Okay.
	And you're going to be worth...
	You're going to be worth 10 billion.
	And you're going to get an island with a volcano on it.
	And you're going to have a special den inside with all the cool stuff.
	I'd say, no, no, no.
	I'll stick with what I've got.
	But would you have said that 20 years ago?
	Well, that's the thing.
	I don't know.
	It's frightening, isn't it?
	I've often...
	It's really frightening, Stephen.
	It's so frightening.
	But when I finally get around to writing my book, when I finish...
	Doing my watermelons.
	I kind of...
	I sort of analysed the moments in my life where I think God might have been watching over me.
	And I did say my prayers as a child.
	And I think it's a bit like...
	Because I was a cross-country runner at school, I've always been quite good at running.
	It sets you up for your lung heart function, I think.
	And in the same way, I think if you get in early with your prayers, Well, we know that prayer is powerful.
	Yeah, it is.
	If I was, you know, every night at my shivering, lumpy mattress at my prep school, my cold-its prep school, I just think God was thinking, yeah, you know, I've got this guy's back.
	Maybe?
	Yeah.
	Well, yeah, and you look back in your life and you see the places that God has intervened, either to stop you going somewhere or to make you go somewhere else.
	You had no idea at the time that was God working in you, but this is what he does.
	And I think when we get to heaven, we'll see that those bits that we've noticed are the tiniest fraction of everything he's been doing in your life to get you to trust in him and then to get you to heaven, which he will take you once you do trust in him.
	So he is doing much more than we realize.
	Wherever Satan has his web, he is limited.
	God is omnipotent.
	He has all the power.
	But that doesn't make me feel smug.
	That makes me feel really sad for, well, One Direction, for example.
	Yes, it should.
	Why wasn't...
	Did they ignore the signs?
	Were they not made available to them?
	You know, that's the thing.
	I feel sad for the people who've had their lives taken from...
	And you should.
	That is the Christian response.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and if by any means God brings them across your path or another Christian's path, we shouldn't say, you've had your fun, mate, now go to hell.
	Never!
	No, not at all.
	No, we don't.
	We should say there is forgiveness in Jesus Christ for everyone, but you will have to humble yourself and repent of your sin and believe in him.
	Except for Bill Gates.
	Don't try to...
	Yeah, it is hard to see how it could work for some people.
	Even just for the crewneck sweaters, the way he's perverted an innocent thing like a crewneck sweater and turned it into a kind of weapon of evil.
	Yes.
	I don't...
	Okay, I suppose I'm going to pray for him, but I don't think he's going to get out of this one.
	I don't think he is, but it's what we believe about the power of the cross.
	Is Jesus powerful enough to save anyone?
	And I actually believe it is.
	Is his death sufficient for anyone?
	That even includes the massive sins of Bill Gates.
	Because it included the Apostle Paul, the murderer of Christians.
	The one who wanted to stamp out this new religion.
	And Paul calls himself the chief of sinners.
	So that gives me...
	I know that it's possible.
	But there is a very frightening thing that happens to people.
	It's called having your conscience seared.
	You know, it's like when you burn a part of your body.
	Man, it hurts!
	You burn the same part of your body repeatedly, and you stop feeling it.
	And I think that's often what happens to a lot of these people is that the warnings that God gives them, the help that he sent them, they keep pushing it away and they won't be able to hear God's voice even if he shouts from heaven, which is a frightening place to get to.
	Yes, I think C.S. Lewis says something about this, doesn't he?
	About, you know, the tiny acts of goodness, they have big rewards, and tiny acts of evil have, they sort of, they're amplified over time.
	Yeah, I mean, we all know this in our lives.
	You think of a certain sin that at some point you got used to doing.
	The first time you did it, the guilt and the shame was overwhelming.
	Yeah.
	But you managed to squash that down, and then you did it again.
	And it wasn't quite as bad.
	And then it leads you down this pathway.
	And that's why these people, they're so depraved, they don't even know.
	The darkness that they've dragged themselves into.
	So yeah, it is a frightening place.
	Yeah.
	While we were just talking though, the random thought came into my head.
	Do you know a song called Lucky Like Saint Sebastian by Momus?
	I don't, no.
	How old are you?
	40. 40. Okay, so you're younger than me.
	You're a child, basically.
	Yes, yeah, yeah.
	I am to hearken when the children are called.
	I'm old enough to be your dad.
	Oh, really?
	I didn't think you were quite that old.
	Yeah, yeah.
	But having said that, I'm very impressed with the fact that you've read Six Sprogs.
	That's really good.
	Oh, yeah.
	What's the age range?
	My eldest is 14. My youngest is eight months.
	Right.
	And do they give you lip?
	No, not very much.
	No.
	Are they respectful children?
	Yes, they are.
	We are very thankful to God.
	He's given us this book again, and he tells us how to raise children.
	And he models it for us in how he treats us.
	And yeah, we are sinful, and we get it wrong.
	And one of the key things that I was told that really influenced me is tell them when you're wrong.
	Apologise to your kids if you get it wrong.
	and they see that because you talk to Doug Wilson, he's really good on family.
	I've learned a lot from him.
	And just treat your kids well, but for family, they need an adult.
	They need you to lead and to be responsible, but they also need your love and affection and care.
	And we have to tell them when we get things wrong, because we do.
	But that actually really helps.
	They all have their moments.
	I have my moments.
	I'm 40 years old.
	Unfortunately, the ship has already sailed regarding bringing up my children.
	But I don't know.
	I think what the scriptures tell us about If Dad's a Christian, at least, you're going to...
	They get kind of protection, and I'm sure they're going to come good in the end.
	It helps.
	Prayer is so important.
	Prayer is so important still for your kids.
	It is.
	Yeah, yeah, exactly.
	So I think God will...
	So, hang on, where are we?
	Let's have a look.
	The face of the Lord is against them that do evil to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
	And then we've got the righteous cry and the Lord...
	So this is the reiteration.
	This time we're in the plural.
	The righteous cry and the Lord heareth them and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
	So that's, yeah, we know that one.
	The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a contrite heart and will save such as be of an humble spirit.
	Now again, this is a line.
	That you also hear, for example, in Psalm 51, that God likes you to be contrite and humble.
	Yeah, so one of my favourite lines, the sacrifice of God is a troubled spirit, a broken and contrite heart shalt thou not despise.
	He doesn't like you to be vaunting and prideful.
	That's right.
	Because that's what Satan does.
	I think that's my main vice, by the way.
	I think pride is probably my uber vice.
	It is the proto-sin.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, it's the worst one, I know.
	It's bad, you know.
	And it's crazy.
	It's crazy, isn't it?
	Because, like, you think of you or you think of me.
	Like, I'm a nobody.
	Like, people don't know me.
	I'm just a little guy with a little business, with a little family.
	And yet, at times, I'm filled with my own importance.
	And you think, who are you?
	It's the stupidest sin.
	LAUGHTER Even in relation to other people, but let alone to God, and yet we find it perennial in the human heart that we think of ourselves better than we ought.
	Yeah.
	I think the way to maybe deal with it I'm constantly reminding myself that, you know, although I'm clever, I'm really clever, but I do remind myself that I'm only clever because that was the gift that God gave me, and I'm very grateful for it.
	Although, I have to say, it does make it kind of difficult sometimes to suffer fools.
	I've got a really low...
	I've got a low Borden threshold And I've got a low Tolerance threshold For sort of lazy Lazy thinking I just can't be Doing with it Yeah Which I know is bad Double edged sword But yeah But that's the right Attitude Is that every good Gift we have Has come from God And so We can't boast in Our gifts Unless we're Boasting in the one Who gave them And lots of people do just say, oh, aren't I great?
	There's a big difference between, aren't I great?
	And hasn't God given me something great?
	And that's the attitude of the Christian.
	If we're all made in the image of God, I'm glad that I've got, you know, some of the really cool bits.
	Thanks, God.
	It's great.
	Yeah, well, that's the right attitude.
	Yeah.
	So, great...
	I like this line.
	Greater the troubles of the righteous.
	Well, we know that.
	But the Lord delivereth him out of all.
	Thanks, God.
	Yeah, and it's so real.
	It's not sugarcoating it.
	There are afflictions of the righteous.
	Jesus said you will have persecution in this world.
	In fact, if nobody ever has any enemy as a Christian, there's a problem.
	That ought to make you think, am I living this right?
	Yeah.
	But the Lord delivers them.
	We don't have to deliver ourselves.
	And that's a real comfort.
	I haven't got space, unfortunately, on this podcast to talk about this, but...
	On two occasions recently...
	I came under kind of random random assault from people who are just like behaving in a really really weird way not just kind of routine kind of miserable soddishness or more than my job's worth this or whatever but just people who they saw something in me Yeah.
	That they wanted to have a go at, and I'm convinced that it was demonic, frankly.
	Yeah, that's very plausible.
	Yeah, because that does happen.
	Yeah.
	The righteous are afflicted because they're righteous.
	Yeah.
	So yeah, when you're over the target, when you're taking black, you're over the target.
	That's right.
	I like this one as well.
	He keepeth all his bones so that not one of them is broken.
	That's right.
	There's quite a broken bones theme in the Psalms.
	There is.
	That appears quite a lot.
	Psalm 51, I think, again, does that one.
	Yeah, and that's because the Psalms are much more prophetic than we realise.
	I think they are the most quoted book in the New Testament as regards fulfilled prophecy.
	They are.
	They're not just quoting taste and see that the Lord is good, which Peter does in his epistle, which is great.
	But they're quoting, saying this was a prophecy and it's been fulfilled.
	And this is one of them.
	So this is quoted in John chapter 19 by John to say that when they didn't break the legs of Jesus on the cross, it was in fulfillment of this prophecy.
	Oh.
	Thanks for explaining that one.
	Yeah, and that actually suddenly flips the whole psalm open, because this psalm was written by David, and it's right that we consider it from David's perspective.
	But this whole psalm can be put in the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ.
	And so we consider these psalms to be messianic.
	They speak of Jesus, and God keeps his promises.
	So, like, he heard the cry of Jesus, the poor man on the cross, and delivered him out of all his trouble.
	Where is Jesus now?
	He's not in trouble anymore.
	So you can read every verse of this psalm and see it in the light of the Lord Jesus Christ, and it opens up a whole new window on it.
	And John, just by giving us that little reference, opens that window for us to see.
	Yeah.
	Do you know what?
	I think of all the aspects of the Psalms, all the things that make them so attractive and wonderful and inspirational, it's the spooky prophetic stuff that really just makes them next level.
	Yeah.
	Thou shalt not leave his soul in hell, neither suffer thine whole who wants to see corruption.
	David speaketh beforehand of this.
	Yeah, it's just...
	They are.
	And Hebrews, it's like, I think there's chapter one, it's like, he gives a quote from the Psalms and it's like, and again, and again, and again.
	It's like hitting over and over and over again.
	There's lots in Hebrews, isn't there?
	He really goes, I suppose, yes, I suppose because of his audience, he's saying, well, look, you know these lines.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And they speak, they speak deep because these are the lines that they would have memorized.
	They tried to learn a lot of the Bible, but the Psalms were intended to be sung.
	And that's one of the things I thought, I didn't know whether it would come up, is that I've got nothing against the high Anglican method of singing psalms.
	But I can't do that.
	I just can't do it.
	I don't have that kind of musical education.
	I can sing reasonably well.
	But I can't learn those parts.
	So I am a great appreciator of the more simple paraphrases of the psalms that I can actually sing.
	Because David is saying, magnify the Lord together with me, and we can read it together.
	But I love to be able to sing it together.
	So Nahum Tate wrote a paraphrase of this psalm.
	And we only tend to sing six verses of it.
	But it's called, Through all the changing scenes of life in trouble and in joy, the praises of my God shall still my heart and tongue employ.
	And so I love singing that song because it allows me to sing it with other people, which is really, really helpful to be able to sing these things together.
	I would love to see better paraphrases of the psalms with great tunes that I can sing.
	Well, there's quite a lot of...
	a lot of hymns are based on psalms.
	Yes.
	Yeah, Isaac Watts wrote loads of them.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so I'm trying to learn more.
	Well, I suppose it's a good source of material.
	You know, if you're sitting down and thinking, what hymn can I write?
	What can I say in this hymn?
	That's right, yeah.
	I know, the psalms are pretty good.
	Nahum Tate wrote While Shepherds Watch Their Flocks by Night.
	And he also wrote...
	King Lear with a happy ending where Cordelia survives.
	I didn't know that.
	I didn't know that.
	He was a pilot laureate, I think.
	Was he?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And while Shepard's watched his...
	I mean, I know it's become a bit mocked because you always think it's good.
	It's actually an excellent paraphrase of that passage about the nativity.
	It's a good...
	I think it's one of the better ones.
	I would never knock.
	Totally, yeah.
	Unfortunately, it lends itself to parody, doesn't it?
	Everyone learns some sort of...
	Yes, exactly.
	Apart from that, poetically, it's excellent.
	I'm planning on learning more of the psalms to music as well as by memory, because I think they're incredibly powerful and helpful to sing together.
	Yeah.
	But misfortune shall slay the ungodly, and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
	I love the use of that word, desolate.
	Yeah, it's the right word, and it conveys the hopeless state of the lost.
	And there are some people who, when God opens their eyes to the complete hopeless, do actually flee from it.
	So these are useful warnings.
	But there's just nothing redeemable about desolate, is there?
	No, there's not.
	You don't want to be desolate.
	Yeah, that's why I love these old versions.
	Their language is powerful.
	It conveys the truth in a way that grips the soul and moves you.
	So yeah, I'm really grateful for them.
	Well, that's why so many of the best translations happened in that period, where there was an extraordinary level of erudition, of scriptural knowledge, combined with an understanding of grammar.
	They had better vocabularies than we did.
	So here was this man of Coverdale, you know, he was a bishop, wasn't he?
	But he was also clearly a poet as well.
	He probably wasn't even aware of it.
	Yeah, because they were steeped in that whole world, the classic world.
	They weren't just reading the Bible all the time, they were reading Homer and Virgil.
	There was a classical explosion.
	Of Greek, especially texts coming over from North Africa and things like that.
	So people were immersed in that world and there's not been anything like it ever since.
	The Lord delivereth the souls of his servants, and all they that put their trust in him shall not be destitute.
	That's another good, they shall not be destitute, because no one wants to be destitute.
	No, no, I'd rather not.
	Yeah.
	No.
	Yeah.
	No.
	Yeah.
	It's a good...
	It's beautiful the way it finishes on the Lord doing this.
	It's the Lord that redeemeth the soul of his servants.
	And that's something we can trust.
	If God does it, it will be done.
	If it was left to me, it would be half done and then forgotten about.
	But when God does it, he does it and he finishes it.
	Lucky the job didn't go to us.
	I think even more so in my case, I think I'd have been absolutely bloody useless.
	Stephen, thank you for coming at me out of nowhere.
	Thank you for having me.
	And thank you for being an antiquarian bookseller or a second-hand bookseller.
	This is the book The Drama of the Lost Disciples.
	I've seen that.
	By George F. Jarrett.
	I tell you what.
	I don't know anything about it.
	I've seen the cover here at some point in the last few years.
	If even half a bit is true, it will just blow your mind.
	The Drama of the...
	I will have to keep my eye open for that.
	Joseph of Arimathea coming to England.
	Well, we know he did because he had the tin mining franchise in Palestine and came over to wherever.
	But it's very interesting on the Lost Tribes, on the earliest...
	So what it suggests is that...
	The church started much earlier in England than is acknowledged by conventional history.
	And there are all sorts of early texts which confirm this.
	The early writings which have been kind of played down or whatever.
	They seem to confirm.
	Anyway, I recommend...
	That's really interesting.
	Yeah, I will do, if I can.
	And some of these things are things that some people know, but they never put it together.
	So one of the early controversies in the church was over the person and nature of Jesus Christ.
	And Pelagius was eventually condemned as a heretic.
	But we're talking, like, really early in the church.
	He's from Britain.
	So how is he arguing false doctrine...
	Unless Christianity's reached here.
	I think it reached very early on.
	Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.
	I think, you know, within years of Christ's crucifixion.
	Yeah, and that's why the Bible says, in the fullness of time he sent forth his Son.
	God picked the right time in history so that the Roman Empire's networks stretched over this huge...
	And once you put the truth there and then persecution happens, Christians are scattered all over those trade routes.
	They go everywhere, taking the news with them and telling people about Jesus.
	So, again, God's timing is all over it.
	Before we go, have you got any top tips on books that, you know, just, like, interesting?
	Oh, I don't know.
	I... John Bunyan is my absolute favourite.
	His insights into the Christian life and how the Christian is to be in this world, I find second to not.
	He's like someone with my brain, but it works properly.
	I read it, I'm like, that's the kind of thought I was trying to think, but couldn't think it through properly, and you've expressed it better than I ever could.
	So for the spiritual life...
	Are we talking about Pilgrim's Progress?
	Yeah, Pilgrim's Progress, John.
	Yeah, when he writes on prayer or anything like that.
	What does a first edition Pilgrim's Progress go for?
	Quite a lot, but it's the condition, is the main thing, because there are so many of them.
	But if you can get one in good condition, you're talking multiple thousands, yeah.
	Yeah, but I've never even seen one earlier than, like, 1720. So, they are out there, but I've never seen one.
	Right.
	Even close.
	And what about a Caxton...
	If I found a Caxton Bible in my attic, what...
	I probably couldn't swap my Bradford house for it.
	So, yeah.
	Not that Bradford houses are worth a right lot.
	But yeah, I was down at the British Library recently with a school trip, and we were looking at some of the treasures there in the treasure room, and they've got a Wycliffe Bible, a first edition Wycliffe Bible.
	There's only like seven of them left in the world.
	That's what I want.
	I covered a Wycliffe Bible.
	Yeah.
	Is that a sim?
	Yeah, probably, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Well, so remind us, where do we find your bookshop?
	It's called Stephen White.
	Stephen White Books.
	Yeah, that'll take you to my website.
	All of my stock is hosted on the big evil platforms like Amazon and eBay and Abe Books and places like that.
	But anyone who wants it cheaper, you can just get in touch with me and obviously I might as well save you the commission.
	People in the West Yorkshire area can just pop down.
	And pick it up to save money.
	And if people want to come to see you preach, come to your church, where do they find you?
	So our little church sort of wrapped up as things started to go back to normal.
	So I'm now in a pre-existing church in Bradford called Church on the Way in Bradford.
	It's really good.
	Love the people there, love the preaching, love the family.
	I have just started possibly the geekiest thing I've ever thought of, which is called the Bradford Wesleyan Hymn Singing Society.
	It's quite niche.
	Oh yeah, and we meet on the second Thursday of every month, so if there's anyone in the West Yorkshire area and they love singing the old hymns, that's probably the best way to find me.
	I don't have any online presence other than my book business.
	I don't do social media at all, so yeah.
	I think you're a star, Stephen.
	I'm so glad that I held out, because I had other songs that I was learning at the time, so I couldn't get...
	Do you know what I did?
	I misremembered which psalm that you'd wanted to do.
	So I ended up learning Psalm 36. Okay, which is great.
	Which is fine.
	It's a great psalm.
	So I wouldn't have learned Psalm 36 if it hadn't been for you.
	So thank you for that.
	No, thank you.
	You are my false memory.
	Yeah, I've really benefited from all the things I've heard on the podcast.
	Whether I agree with them or it doesn't matter.
	It's stimulating, it's encouraging, it's eye-opening.
	I've loved the psalm series.
	I think it's excellent.
	And it's really inspired me to get back into the Psalms as a whole book and to read more.
	And interestingly, especially from one of your recent guests, to read them out loud at home.
	I'm very much a sort of reading your head sort of person, but actually reading them out loud, there is a difference to it.
	And because I think he was saying, it was the guy from South Africa, the devils can't read your thoughts.
	They don't know what's going on in your head, but they can hear what comes out of your mouth.
	And if you're reading the Psalms, and if you're praying it out loud, that is powerful.
	And that really struck me.
	So that's part of my plan, is to incorporate more public Psalm reading into my life.
	Yeah.
	Well, thank you for those kind words.
	And everyone else, if you've enjoyed this, obviously, A, you want to get early access to my stuff, which you should do.
	I mean, why would you not want to listen to my podcast as soon as they come out?
	Because they're so great.
	If that's not too prideful of me.
	So you can do that by signing up on Locals or on Substack.
	Substack is probably the place where most people go these days.
	Patreon.
	Buy me a coffee if you just want to give me a special treat.
	Support my sponsors.
	And spread the word.
	Like, if you've got Christian friends that you think might enjoy this, then tell them about it.
	And if you've got non-Christian friends, I mean, I think the good thing about the Psalms series is that you don't have to be a Christian to enjoy this stuff.
	It's a learning experience.
	Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this, and thank you for watching and listening, and thank you again, Stephen White.
	Go and buy his books now.
	Thanks, James.

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