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Sept. 17, 2024 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:40:07

Psalm 1: Jamie Franklin

James is joined by one third of the excellent Irreverend podcast, Rev. Jamie Franklin to discuss Psalm 1.https://irreverendpod.com↓ ↓ ↓ Buy James a Coffee at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jamesdelingpole The official website of James Delingpole:https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk x

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	Psalm 1.
	This is the Miles Coverdale translation for the Book of Common Prayer.
	Blessed is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stood in the way of sinners, and hath not sat in the seat of the scornful, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law will he exercise himself day and night.
	And he shall be like a tree, planted by the water-side, that shall bring forth his fruit in due season.
	His leaf also shall not wither, and look, whatsoever he doeth, it shall prosper.
	As for the ungodly, it is not so with them, but they are like the chaff which the wind scattereth away from the face of the earth.
	Therefore the ungodly shall not be able to stand in the judgment, neither sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
	But the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous, and the way of the ungodly shall perish.
	Welcome to the psalms with me James Delingpole.
	I know I always say I'm excited about this week's specialist psalm guest, and here he is!
	Jamie Franklin of Irreverent.
	How are you, Jamie?
	Yeah, I'm doing really well, thanks, James.
	I live in Winchester now.
	I used to live in Nottingham, that's where I was last time I spoke to you.
	So I live in Winchester now, down south.
	Nice.
	I've got another child since we last spoke, so I've got four children now.
	I'm in charge of a church, which is different to before.
	And yeah, I'm still a podcast host.
	So yeah, that's kind of what I do mainly.
	That's mainly all my time taken up.
	We should have been doing Psalm 127 with your breeding program.
	That's a surprisingly offensive psalm.
	I don't know whether some of your listeners may be aware that not everyone appreciates the sentiment of that psalm, and I've had personal experience of that.
	Well, we're not going to talk about Psalm 127, but it does seem to place a high premium on having children, and that it's the sort of thing that God wants to happen.
	Yeah, it's funny that, isn't it?
	It's almost like the prevailing attitude of our culture is ungodly in some way, and its attitude to children is shocking.
	Well, we've got so much to talk about.
	You've just given me a nice lead there on the ungodliness of our culture.
	And of course, Psalm 1 is all about the godly way of life.
	We'll see where we go with this.
	Blessed is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stood in the way of sinners, and hath not sat in the seat of the scornful.
	This psalm has been deliberately placed, hasn't it, as psalm number one, because it's the kind of introductory psalm that introduces us to all the other 149 that follow.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Yeah, I think it's got a number of themes in it which then are repeated.
	It's almost like a kind of overture in that sense of all the psalms.
	So you've got this thing of the contrast between the righteous and the wicked.
	It's actually an amazing psalm really.
	It's got a chiasmic or a chiastic, I'm not sure which the right word is, but it's a chiasm.
	Do you know what this is?
	No, tell me.
	Okay, so it's basically, um, six, uh, well, it's actually seven verses.
	Let's see.
	I've got the structure here.
	So it's seven verses, but essentially it's this verses, you know, the verses are not inspired.
	It's, it's actually a six-part structure in this psalm.
	So it's a form of Hebrew poetry, which starts, so the structure goes like this.
	If you think about it this way, it's A, B, C, C, B, A, right?
	With the two A's, so verse one and then verse six, which would be, I guess, Yeah, maybe it's verse seven.
	Anyway, the fact is it's like a sandwich.
	So if you compare, for example, verse one and then verse seven, they're actually thematically related to each other.
	So, blessed is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly.
	That's the first verse or part of it.
	And then the seventh verse is, the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous and the way of the ungodly shall perish.
	So there you've got a contrast between the way of blessedness And then the way of perishing.
	And it's even extended to the first and last word.
	So you've got the blessed man, which is literally the first word.
	And then the final word is perish.
	So there's a contrast between blessing and perishing.
	And then you've got verses two and five, which go together as well.
	So you've got people who are being blessed by God's law.
	And then in verse five, you've got people who are being judged by God's law.
	And then in verses 3 and 4, the C bits, so you've had the A bits on the very outside, the B bits, and 2 and 5.
	And then in the middle there, you've got 3 and 4, and that's like the climax of the kiosk, and that's how a kiosk structure works.
	The middle is the climax.
	So, and he shall be like a tree planted by the water side that will bring forth his fruit in due season.
	So that's an image of the permanence of the blessed.
	And then verse four, which goes with it, which I think in the modern translations are run together.
	I'm just looking at a modern translation as well.
	And then in verse five in the Coverdell version, as the ungodly, it's not so with them, but they are like the chaff which the wind scattereth away from the face of the earth.
	So you've got that central comparison.
	That's the climax of the poem, where you have this contrast between an enduring fruit tree, which is the man that's blessed because he meditates on the law of God day and night.
	And then you've got the impermanent chaff, So that image is intentionally placed in the middle of the poem as the climax of the poem.
	So you see, you've got A, B, C, C, and the two Cs of the climax, and then B, A, which then relate to verses one and two.
	So it's like a sandwich that the intensity kind of grows as it gets to the middle and climaxes, and then sort of fades out again.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Thank you.
	I'm going to have to look at the psalm, because it's quite hard when you haven't got the psalm in front of you.
	But I'm going to look at it.
	With new eyes.
	You've got it in your mind though.
	Oh totally.
	We'll go through it verse by verse in a moment.
	It is one of the endless joys of the Psalms, these complexities and the fact that it's symmetrical, isn't it, basically?
	The chiasmus is a form of symmetry, which makes it very attractive.
	Is this a Psalm of David?
	Yes, this is a Psalm of David, yes, for sure.
	Maybe you can put me right on this one.
	I'm never sure Whether it was literally written by David or not.
	I mean, it says it is, but was it?
	Well, I mean, so this is the thing, James, is I don't want to be too dismissive of those who would be, you know, into sort of, you know, biblical criticism, everything like that.
	But as far as I'm concerned, if the tradition of the Church, you know, says it was written by David, then I'm happy to go with that.
	I mean, I'm certain there'll be some kind of scholarly debate over who really wrote these Psalms and all this kind of stuff.
	But the fact is the Church has received this as something that's written by David.
	So I'm happy with that.
	You know, it might be that there were other people who sort of compiled these later, but the Psalms, generally speaking, well, at least some of them, are attributed to David, and that's what the Church inherited.
	That's what Christ inherited, that Christ speaks about the Psalms as being written by David.
	That's what the early Church believed, so, you know, that's kind of good enough for me, as it were.
	Although it is one of the great, if you're minded as I am to question everything, it is, I see Christianity as yet another massive rabbit hole because there are so many conflicting views of scholars and so on.
	And of course, within each denomination of the church, what it's really all about.
	And I'm glad that you're here to represent The Church of England that I would like to believe in.
	The Church of England that actually... because there are some of you.
	I mean, you're one of them.
	There are quite a few actually, James.
	You know, they tend not to be very sort of, you know, head above the... head above the... what am I saying?
	Head above the pulpit.
	I like that.
	Head above the pulpit.
	I meant to say parapet.
	Parapet.
	Yeah, so there are, and I'm in touch with lots of them.
	I mean, many, many have been in touch with me since, you know, we started our podcast.
	So they do exist and there are quite a few of them out there.
	But of course, the main ones you see are, you know, mainly bishops and people like that.
	They tend to be, you know, let's say, well, I don't really know what to say.
	They tend to be not the kind of people you'd like to represent the Church of England in this case, yeah.
	No, I think if the Church of England were the NHS, you would be one of those hard-working nurses changing bedpans and just making people's lives better.
	And the C of E hierarchy, the bishops and going up to the Archbishop of Canterbury, not to mention the church commissioners, they would be all those grisly administrators that are kind of leeching off the taxpayer and not really doing much for the brand.
	Well, I think that's, yeah, I mean, that's very kind of you.
	And the Church of England is actually, it is actually a kind of socialist structure, economically speaking.
	So the comparison is not entirely inapt.
	I mean, you know, you know that, right, that we pay into, each parish pays into a central fund, and then it's kind of redistributed.
	So it's not an entirely inappropriate comparison in that case.
	No, I found myself having lunch the other day with... I hadn't been aware this woman is a believing Christian and is a pillar of the church community in her local village.
	And she says she's been having endless trouble with the sort of the woke archdeacon.
	And you've got these parishioners providing money for essentially for their church so that they can have a vicar who takes services and maybe they can afford an organist now and then.
	And they haven't had a vicar for getting on for two years, I think.
	And they say they put adverts in whatever, what is it, church times?
	Yeah, church times.
	And They don't get... no one even applies.
	There's no take-up.
	Why is this?
	Why is there no take-up for rural churches?
	Well, it might be because they're in a benefits with like 10 churches and vicars don't want to do that.
	You know, I certainly wouldn't want to do that.
	I mean, can you imagine?
	Honestly, like having one church, which I'm a part-time unpaid vicar, Yeah.
	And I have one church, and I'm supposed to be sort of two days a week plus Sunday, and I literally spend all my time working on one church.
	So if it's like 10 churches, or even four or three or four, it's a completely impossible job.
	So it's not necessarily very attractive.
	Also, it might be an issue of a stipend as well, if there's not a full stipend.
	I don't know whether she, did she tell you if there was a stipend attached to the post?
	We didn't go into such details.
	No, it's often like a part-time stipend or something like that.
	So you're only paid part-time or something and that can be unattractive.
	Yeah, so things like that which make it less attractive for people.
	But having a situation where you actually can um advertised for a vicar after two years it's not that bad i mean there was a five-year interregnum here where i am um i've served parishes in nottingham i served one which had been in interregnum for 11 years and this is part of the problem with um with the with the system is that diocese don't necessarily have to put vicars in places if places don't if if the diocese are not minded to do it for whatever reason which can be all sorts of reasons
	reasons to do with the the style of worship in the parish reasons to do with um stances people take on women's ordination um all all sorts of reasons so basically parishes are at the mercy of diocese if the diocese treats you Then great, you'll have a vicar and you'll have everything you want, but they can quite easily just let parishes run down.
	And unfortunately, that is the way it happens in lots and lots of places.
	Parishes are just, they're just left to die without priests.
	And the fact that the church commissioners have, you know, this investment funds of, it's something like 11 billion pounds.
	And you have so many parishes all around the country that either don't have priests or have a priest split between, say, you know, four or five churches.
	It's an absolute scandal, to be honest with you.
	I just cannot get my head around it.
	The amount of money that the Church of England has is absolutely obscene, and at least a big chunk of it should be spent on clergy, in my opinion.
	Is this money just inherited from over the centuries?
	Accumulated wealth, presumably.
	Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
	We're a massive property owner and landowner and everything like that as well.
	The amount of money the Church of England has is obscene.
	You must have heard about this thing about Justin Welby saying that we are going to give A hundred million pounds towards... I mean, it's not reparations.
	That's not the word they use.
	It's like, you know, addressing historic injustices in slave trade.
	And there was even talk of that money being reinvested and other money being raised as well.
	And that number rising to a billion pounds.
	I mean, it's...
	How many vicars?
	Wait, is vicar the correct word?
	What is the person who takes services in a church correctly called?
	In the Church of England, technically it's a priest.
	So I'm not actually a vicar.
	A vicar is a particular sort of legal title that certain priests who are in charge of churches have.
	So my title is actually priest in charge, yeah.
	Right.
	And what's a rector?
	It's the same thing.
	It's like another word for a benefist minister, but it's got a certain legal designation.
	I think a rector might be to do with whether or not you live in a rectory, but I'm not... Oh, I see.
	I'm sure, yeah.
	Can I say, perhaps this is very old-fashioned of me, but I think it's awfully sad that priests no longer get a nice rectory to live in in rural parishes, which might... I mean, I think you might try to Well, you might make it more attractive to people who want to come and be priests.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And just to tell people what's happened in many of these rural places, and many non-rural places as well, is that the rectories have been sold off and priests live in much, much less nice accommodation.
	But it's not just about the niceness of the accommodation.
	Many villages and towns around the country, especially in villages I would say, the rectory was really the heart of the village.
	It would be open to the community and they'd have fates in the ground.
	And it was really the centre of the village and it was the centre also of ministry, pastoral parochial ministry.
	And then they'd get shut down and get sold to Some rich person who then owns them.
	I mean, I was in, I used to, in Nottingham, I lived next to a parish, which is very, very much like this.
	I mean, the epitome of what I'm talking about.
	And then nobody knows where the vicar lives, you know, the vicars are far less, you know, far more kind of, he's a far more tangential figure in the community.
	And yeah, it's just really, really sad.
	It's like something in the heart of the community is just completely gone.
	And what for as well?
	Because these vicarages, I mean, this one that I'm talking about, the one that I've got in my mind next to where we lived in Nottingham, it is worth millions and millions of pounds now.
	I mean, it's a huge, lovely building with lovely grounds.
	They probably sold it for like 800 grand 20 years ago or something like that.
	And it's such a waste.
	What's the point for that money?
	It's so short-sighted.
	Yes.
	I don't I don't think they believe in their own product.
	That's part of the problem.
	But what do they believe in?
	Well, yeah, it's it's it's hard to say, isn't it?
	I think there's I think obviously it's different people, but I think there's a there's definitely a what would you call it, like an attitude of negativity and pessimism and a sense of impending doom.
	And I think that that's why people make these decisions is because they're desperately trying to keep the thing afloat financially.
	Because they know the Church of England is in critical decline, and so they're just desperate, really.
	They'll just do anything in order just to try and balance the books from year to year.
	But as I say, it's completely short-sighted, and it's not a spiritual response to the decline either.
	There's no soul-searching going on.
	There's no real kind of looking and saying, Why is the Church of England in such massive decline?
	Why are people leaving in droves?
	Why do people not want to come to church?
	Why are people not interested in what we've got to say?
	Those are the kind of questions we need to be asking ourselves, because that's the only way we can actually, well, firstly, we can repent and, you know, seek the Lord's favour, which is the most important thing, but then we can actually just think about things in a In a, what would you call it, like a sensible way, like you would if you were, if you had a business that was failing and nobody was interested in it, you'd say, well, why, why not?
	Why are people not interested in it?
	What can we do to change this?
	How can we appeal to people?
	Because what we're doing isn't working and it hasn't been working for at least 30 years, but longer than that.
	Well, it's interesting you mentioned business because it seems to me that what people like is integrity and authenticity.
	And in the last 20 years or so, one of the fashions has been for private equity companies to take over Firms with a really strong brand, but which have not been exploiting it properly.
	So, for example, Hunter Wellies, green wellies that you wear to point to points.
	They've got a certain class connotation that got taken over and I'm sure they made a fortune out of it in the same way.
	Bell staff.
	Yeah.
	Belstaff, I think, was what T.E.
	Lawrence was wearing on his motorbike when he had his fatal accident.
	But Belstaff became this... they revived the brand.
	Wallpaper companies as well.
	There was one that Did William Morris wallpaper, I forget which one it was, and so on.
	So there is value in the brand, but you've got to understand what the brand is.
	And it's clear to me that Welby, I mean, he's just a kind of, well, an ex-oil man.
	I don't know what he's doing in the church in the first place.
	When I go to church, Which I've been doing quite a bit more recently.
	I found it very helpful because my wife's been ill and I found this community of people who were there to offer me, you know, words of sympathy, prayer, which is really important because I believe that actually, you know, I'm really old-fashioned.
	I actually think that prayer works.
	Yeah.
	Is that crazy of me?
	Well, yeah, I mean, well, yes, it's it's a it's it's not it's not as shocking as you might as you might think, James.
	There are others.
	There are scattered around people who who might agree with you there.
	But yeah, that's good.
	But so so I've got, I think, five churches within walking distance of my house.
	Yeah.
	And they're all beautiful.
	Some of them have got some amazing brasses.
	Some of them have got some amazing tombs and stained glass glass windows.
	And I'm proud to say that the one nearest me during the COVID nonsense, it stayed open.
	I mean, okay, we had a stupid woke vicar who introduced ghastly things like intinction.
	Oh, really?
	Do you hate intinction?
	I hope you do.
	I think that intinction is... Yeah, I think it's... I mean, I don't want to say it's sort of ungodly, and I'm definitely not in favour of it.
	I don't understand it from a theological point of view, and I think... Look, I'm not concerned about this kind of thing, really, because I believe that this actually becomes the body and blood of Christ.
	And I don't believe you can become sick by taking it.
	Yeah.
	If you are concerned about hygiene, it seems to me that intinction is the worst thing that you can possibly do because you're literally getting people to put their fingers in the wine because the wine inevitably touches the fingers.
	So in that sense, it's definitely the least hygienic way of receiving communion.
	So I don't understand it theologically.
	I don't see what the point of it is.
	And I think it doesn't even make sense.
	A lot of people sort of introduced that during Covid as though that was some kind of hygienic measure, which it's just not.
	It's really strange to me.
	Isn't that weird?
	I think these measures were introduced by these mysterious forces, these committees or whatever.
	I don't think any of the local people were consulted.
	I mean, the habit has stuck now in in some of the churches I go to in that there are some older people who still imagine that you see them saving their biscuit and dunking it.
	And I'm thinking when he says the blood of Christ and the body of Christ, he doesn't mean the soggy biscuit of Christ.
	It doesn't have the same You know what, I said I didn't understand it from a theological perspective, and I said I didn't want to call it ungodly, but I think I want to revise that.
	I think it is actually impious, because you're exactly right, because what's happening is you receive it in your hands, you receive the bread, you know, the body of Christ in your hands, and then you're waiting there, holding it, for the blood to come along so that you can intinct it.
	That waiting period is actually very significant because anything could happen in that waiting period.
	You know, you could sneak off with it, you could break part of it off and give it to someone else or it could fall on the floor.
	You know, Roman Catholics don't actually receive in the hands, they just receive on the tongue for this reason so that nobody will defile the precious body of Christ.
	You know, they just receive with their mouth open and the priest places it straight into the mouth and some people in my parish do that as well.
	So I revised my opinion about it in Tingshan actually.
	I say even more strongly now.
	I think it's ungodly.
	Fortunately, no one in my parish does it.
	Good, good.
	So that's the one example of the thing that the Church of England has really got going for it in terms of brand.
	You've got these lovely old churches with this fantastic architecture and these wonderful interiors, which I've already mentioned.
	I mean, that's part of our heritage.
	It's amazing.
	And then you've got Okay, you've got communion.
	You've got the chalice, the communion cup.
	The one in our church is 16th century.
	And you think, wow, I'm taking communion out of the cup that people in, well, what would it be?
	So people in Queen Elizabeth's time would have been drinking out of.
	It's amazing.
	So do you know specifically when it dates from in the 16th century?
	I think it was from that interregnum when there was a boy king, when it didn't last very long.
	Yeah, so Edwards.
	So that's interesting, isn't it?
	Because then you would have had Mary after that and then Elizabeth.
	There are many, so if you read somebody like Eamon Duffy, the Roman Catholic historian, he's got a really interesting book called, well, one of them is called The Stripping the Altars, which is his main masterwork, but then there's another one called The Voices of Morabath.
	And he actually looks at documentary evidence about priests in that time.
	And, you know, some of them were doing things like, let's see, so when things went Protestant, they would have buried their chalices, you know, in the churchyard or something like that.
	And then, and their shajibles or whatever.
	And then when Mary came to the throne, they'd have dug them up again, got them out and started using them.
	And then when Elizabeth came, they'd have buried them again.
	So it's possible that this chalice may have been something like that happened to it.
	You know, it was hidden, maybe hidden during the reign of Edward or cast, I don't know, cast during the reign of Edward and hidden or used secretly.
	Then when Mary came along, it was used openly.
	Then when Elizabeth came, it was maybe suppressed again.
	I mean, it's very interesting.
	These objects have these histories.
	That's why it's a bit battered, maybe, where it's been underground for a while.
	Maybe, yeah, yeah.
	Who knows?
	Who knows?
	It would be interesting, you know, with these, with these, because these priests had different sympathies.
	So some of them were Roman, they were Roman Catholics.
	And when, when the Protestants came in, they had to suppress their true identity and follow the rules.
	But some of them would have been doing, you know, secret masses and things like that.
	Others were Protestant at heart, and they were all too happy to, you know, smash the stained glass windows or the statues and get rid of all their vestments or whatever it might be.
	You know, smash all the, the nave altars or whatever.
	So yeah, it's very, very interesting.
	These churches have this incredible textured and layered histories, you know, all of them doing one way or another that date back to the period before the Reformation.
	Yeah, and this stuff is free.
	I mean, it's like partly going to the theatre, so you feel even better afterwards because you've made your peace with God in these incredible surroundings.
	I mean, OK, I say it's free.
	Obviously, you probably make a contribution at the end with luck.
	And then you participate in this wonderful ritual, especially if you're using the Book of Common Prayer, which is one of the graces of our language.
	I mean, who wrote the Book of Common Prayer?
	Kramer was one of them, wasn't he?
	Yeah, Thomas Kramer compiled it.
	I mean, obviously it's lots of scriptural quotes and a lot of it either draws from scripture or it draws from liturgical resources that predate the Reformation.
	Yeah, so it's Thomas Cramer and then the Psalms are obviously translations by Myles Coverdell.
	Myles Coverdell?
	Yeah, which predates the King James Version and is influenced on the King James.
	And where are you on Coverdell versus KJV?
	I mean, I love the KJV, but because the Coverdell is what I use, because I generally use the Book of Common Prayer for my devotions, and in terms of memorization with the Psalms, I use the Coverdell as well, for the same reason, just so that I've not got two different things.
	And I don't know whether you find this, James, but when you're memorizing things, It's very difficult if you've got something that you've memorised and then you're engaging with something else that's very similar to it but is slightly different, which is the way that Coverdell and the King James Version are in terms of the psalms.
	I don't know, it's probably about, what would you say, like 90% the same?
	Yes.
	So it's confusing if you use both of them on a regular basis.
	It's quite interesting seeing which of Coverdell's lines the The King James translators have plagiarized, if you like, and which ones they've sought to change.
	Yeah.
	I think he has a wonderful turn of phrase covered out.
	Yeah, he does.
	Yeah.
	Well, there's one here, isn't there, in Psalm?
	I don't actually have the King James in front of me, but I was thinking about this earlier just because I know it.
	As to the ungodly, it is not so with them.
	I think the King James says, as to the, what does it say?
	Something like, not so with the wicked or something?
	Hang on, I'm going to check.
	it's something like that i hope i'm right in saying this now
	Oh.
	Oh no.
	I just went in.
	I found the spot.
	Nice.
	And then I closed.
	I missed.
	Hang on.
	Oh, yeah.
	It's not as, um, the ungodly are not so.
	Oh, right.
	Okay, yeah, yeah.
	The ungodly are not so.
	Yeah.
	So, can you read the whole of verse 5 in the KJV there, so I can hear it?
	Verse 4 is, the ungodly are not so, but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
	Ah, okay.
	There's no music there.
	There's no poetry.
	It's not as good as the Coverdale, is it?
	As for the ungodly, it is not so with them, but they are like the chaff which the wind scattereth away from the face of the earth.
	I mean, that's much better, isn't it, I would say.
	It is.
	And I think that phrase, the face of the earth, has entered the language.
	Presumably that is the origin of that phrase.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, it may be.
	I mean, it's very interesting, actually, because if you read, I read Melvin Bragg's book on the KJV, and he makes a big deal out of that grammatical structure, the something of the something, you know, like, for example, Psalm 8, you know, the birds of the air, the fowl of the sea and everything like that, which he sort of says in that book, I'm not saying he's saying it originates there, but what he's saying is that that sort of structure, that grammatical structure,
	into the English language through the King James version of scripture, you know, the something of the something.
	Yeah, yeah.
	It's actually very present in Coverdell's psalms.
	So the psalm eight is the fowls of the air and the fishes of the sea.
	So let's see what they say in the... Yeah, you see, they make it singular, the fowl of the air and the fish of the sea.
	Well, I remember doing psalms at school and remembering that phrase, the fowls of the air and the fishes of the sea.
	Yeah.
	And whatsoever passeth along the paths of the sea, is it?
	Walketh along the path?
	Whatsoever walketh along the path of the sea, yeah.
	Yeah.
	And walketh through the paths of the sea.
	And here we've got, and he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water.
	Well, is that better than planted by the water, Sidon?
	I'm not sure.
	It's very similar, isn't it?
	Planted by the rivers of water.
	I prefer planted by the waterside.
	Yeah.
	Because it's a singular image in Coverdell, isn't it?
	It's this beautiful image of a tree, just a singular tree standing there permanent by the waterside, by a particular waterside.
	Whereas to me, when it says, what was it?
	Rivers of... Rivers of water.
	Yeah, it sort of sounds a bit sort of plural, doesn't it?
	Well, it could be anywhere, couldn't it?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yes, you're absolutely right.
	It's a very arresting image.
	You should be like a tree planted by the waterside.
	You can see that tree.
	Yeah.
	You can be resting under that tree, maybe with a foot in the water, and it's cool and it's pleasant.
	Yeah.
	The other one is not... Yeah, it's not quite as good, is it?
	It's almost as though the translators felt, well, we can't keep it all as it is because we haven't done it.
	We won't be seen to have done any work.
	Yeah, they're trying to earn their money.
	Yeah.
	By the way, isn't there a football song that goes, there is a tree planted by the water side?
	There might be, not one that I've ever heard.
	I'm a Tottenham Hotspur fan.
	It's definitely not one of their chants, but yeah, maybe.
	You're a football fan.
	I'm a Spurs fan, yeah.
	That is not the way of the godly.
	You don't think?
	I don't know.
	I think football is a bit satanic, you know?
	Yeah, well it's certainly been co-opted by the forces of evil.
	There's no doubt whatsoever about that.
	And I have to say as well, James, I'm becoming less interested in it as time goes on.
	Not because Not just because Spurs are so unbelievably terrible to be, to support, but just because it just doesn't do anything for my soul.
	You know, I just sometimes I'm just watching football and I just think, oh, what am I doing this for?
	You know, this isn't making me happy.
	I just feel depressed and anxious and stressed.
	So do you know what I mean?
	Like sometimes you do something which you used to find entertaining, used to enjoy, used to get a kick out of it.
	And now you're just like, oh, yeah.
	Well, also, it's Contracting out your life to very well-paid people on a patch of green.
	Yeah, and it's it's it's a sort of living vicariously through these people who are not particularly good role models.
	I would say no.
	No.
	Well, I mean they have I suppose the way you would try and redeem it is to say that you know, it teaches people like the value of hard work of discipline.
	of focusing on something and trying to achieve excellence and all this kind of stuff, which I think is all true.
	But I think that's probably outweighed by, as you say, the fact that football has so obviously been co-opted by the forces of the enemy.
	And also, it's just it's harder.
	It's harder to follow now because you inevitably, and I don't want to, I don't want to, I always talk about this and... Oh, is it VAERS?
	Oh, no, it's not.
	No, you mean, you mean VA.
	You're going to say VA versus the vaccine.
	Oh, sorry.
	Yes, that's right.
	That's not what I was going to say.
	I was going to say that I just don't I really dislike this thing of women being invited into the punditry fold and then being treated as though they are on the same level of expertise as the men.
	Now, I've got no problem with women, you know, being presenters.
	There is there are lots of really good Sports presenters, football presenters who are women and some of them are, you know, excellent.
	And I have, you know, one feels a certain sort of sense of, you know, there's something nice, isn't there, about having a really nice, you know, a nice looking lady who's a really good presenter and she's drawing people in and she's providing a certain sort of feminine side to things.
	I've got no problem with that and I think that can be quite nice.
	But what I don't like is when they invite someone like Alex Scott or someone like that in.
	Yeah.
	And then she's speaking about, like I saw at the Euros, you know, speaking about, you know, at the Euros, it's like this.
	And you just think at the Euros, you had like 20 people watching you, you know, the whole world is watching this tournament.
	And this level of sporting excellence is on a completely different planet to anything you've experienced.
	So it's completely illegitimate.
	And also there's a, it's all about social engineering.
	It's trying to break down the barrier, the distinctions rather between men and women.
	It's pushing A radical feminist agenda.
	You know, these people are often lesbians and they've got other questionable aspects to their personal life.
	So none of it's by chance.
	It's all completely on purpose.
	I couldn't agree with you more.
	And I'm delighted that we've gone on this particular digression because I tell you something else I've noticed and I find this disturbing.
	And one isn't supposed to find it disturbing.
	One's supposed to find it a good thing.
	But I've noticed that the girls I go riding with, so between sort of 9 and say 16 or 17, I only meet them in the school holidays, and I notice that they are all Massive participants in in girls sports at their school except except that they're basically playing sports that will traditionally have been played by men so lots of cricket Rugby for example, and I'm thinking terrible.
	I'm not sure that this is right and yeah Obviously girls should have a healthier life and outdoor life and stuff But it seems to me that girls are being channeled into activities that were traditionally used to sort of make young men Why?
	I suppose for war among other things, which I don't approve of at all.
	But generally, it's taking away the femininity of girls and trying to make out that they are the same as boys and should have access to the same lifestyle as boys.
	It's wrong.
	Yeah, it reminds me of the bit in One Peter where he says that women should be treated with honor as the weaker vessel.
	And that doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean, it's not an insult.
	It's just making an observation that women, you know, femininity is not about, you know, Strength and, you know, it's not about physical strength, let's say, it's not about raw brute power.
	It's about, you know, beauty and gentleness and relationship and sensitivity and all of that.
	And the role of the man in that sense, the kind of thing Peter's talking about is using your masculinity, using your strength, using your masculine power to honour women and to honour the fact that they're different to you and that they should be treated with respect and dignity and where appropriate, they should be protected from you know, predators and people who would be aggressors and all this kind of stuff.
	And the other thing I would say about this thing about rugby in particular is I think that, well, clearly women's bodies are not designed to play a sport like rugby.
	And secondly, what's that doing to their internal organs, you know, They're being tackled around the waist or in the midriff.
	Women are designed to bear children.
	They have their reproductive systems, they've got their wombs and everything, their ovaries.
	What's that actually doing to them if they're being clattered in their midriff over and over again?
	Unless they play touch rugby, I don't really know, but I assume they don't.
	So I disapprove of this thing with women's rugby.
	I think it's just wrong, personally.
	Jamie, I have to say, I'm going to place a bet here.
	I would say there are probably no more than 10% or maybe even 5% of priests within the Church of England who would A. hold such views or B. dare express them in a public forum.
	This is a public forum.
	I don't know whether it is.
	Come on, it's so wrong, isn't it?
	Who wants to watch women's rugby anyway?
	I mean, I know there'll be some people out there who will say, oh, yeah, we want to watch women's rugby.
	But I just think, like, from an aesthetic perspective, you know, I think there are some sports which women play legitimately and which are...
	Eventing, three-day eventing, cross-country, anything on a horse, basically.
	Yeah, yeah, exactly.
	And women do things differently to men, and there's a certain aesthetic associated with that.
	Like, tennis is another example.
	Men's tennis and women's tennis are different sports.
	They're played differently.
	They've got completely different emphases.
	But if you take something like cycling, you can't even tell these people are women apart from the fact they're smaller than men.
	You literally can't see.
	Their heads are covered with helmets and goggles and stuff.
	They're just literally just peddling more slowly than men.
	So honestly, what's the point of it?
	Which brings me, actually, not that smoothly, but a question I've been wanting to ask you.
	Which is, I think that what my local parish would really benefit from is me as their vicar.
	I think I'd be so good.
	I'd give a really good... Can you imagine what my sermons would be like?
	They would be awesome.
	They'd be on point.
	They would be scriptural.
	There would be no... I wouldn't mention Ukraine once.
	Ukraine would never get mentioned.
	I wouldn't mention climate change.
	Yeah.
	And I certainly wouldn't.
	We had this this vicar in the other day.
	We've got one of those ones who works at something else.
	What are they called?
	And they just come in at the weekend and... Oh yeah, like a non-stipendary.
	Non-stipendary vicar.
	Yeah.
	Which is what I am, by the way.
	Okay.
	So I'm not having to get a non-stipendary vicar.
	No, it's fine.
	Merely at the sermon that he gave.
	And we're talking What, four years after the corona nonsense?
	And he was saying how he was in a bad mood because one of his staff was off sick.
	Because she'd taken a COVID test and she discovered that she had COVID.
	And he was saying, well, obviously, you know, I understand, you know, it's very important that she should isolate.
	And I'm thinking, no, it's not.
	Why are you talking about this in the church service four years after the fakery?
	What was this on Sunday, James?
	This was last Sunday.
	And was he commenting on the gospel?
	I'm just trying to think of what... because I mean, I preach every week.
	Oh!
	Just trying to think of how he got there.
	Hang on.
	This is Mark chapter 7.
	What was he talking about?
	It was... So, this week it was... the reading was about the traditions and... traditions and commandments.
	And I actually...
	I actually used this, I only said it in a sentence, but I used this partially to critique what was going on four years ago.
	Because I was saying, you know, Christ, in this passage, he talks about, it's not what goes into a person that defiles him, but what comes out of the heart is what defiles them.
	That was the sermon, yeah, you're right.
	Same one.
	Yeah, so I was saying, I just said it as a kind of throwaway line because the point I was making was, you know, it's a very human thing to think, well, you know, as long as we keep these kind of external commandments that that makes us righteous.
	But actually what Christ is saying is, no, that's not the way actually.
	The truth is that it's what comes out of your heart that makes you ungodly or what makes you righteous.
	And I just said there was a lot of that kind of thing four years ago when people got it into their minds if they kept the COVID rules that they were righteous and if they didn't then they were ungodly and so they could go around feeling superior about themselves and pointing the finger at other people who weren't keeping the rules.
	So I said that as a result of this passage.
	So I'm interested to hear how this guy got to talking about... It was quite a tortured route, wasn't it?
	I would say.
	It must have been.
	I was sitting there shaking my head and thinking, well, at least I've got communion, at least it's the BCP and at least I've got communion ahead of me, but I don't think much of your sermon, Vicar, sorry.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So, yeah, well, I should have driven the two hours or whatever it is to Winchester and got your sermon.
	It would have been way better.
	Well, yeah, I mean, it doesn't sound like, you know, with all due respect to this vicar, it doesn't sound like it was on point.
	It wasn't on point.
	The thing is, like, I'm not saying there shouldn't be any personality in preaching because I'm all for, like, bringing your personality and, you know, the way the Lord has spoken to you personally in your preparation and everything like that.
	But there is a sense in which when you're preaching, you are just like the postman, you know, you're there to deliver a message.
	And the message is on the page.
	It's not for you to then, like, take the message, you know, take the letter out and rewrite it and then deliver it.
	You know, you're there to deliver a message from God, not to sort of say, oh, you know, I've got these blessed thoughts.
	And that's, I think, why so many sermons are so boring.
	You know, it's because people are just not, they're not delivering the message.
	If they really did, If they really read it, really understood what it said, and thought deeply about how to apply it, and said it with courage and clarity, it would be a lot more interesting for people.
	And that's what you do, James.
	That's absolutely what you do if you were preaching a sermon.
	Well, because I believe this crazy nonsense.
	I do.
	And I would consider it part of my mission.
	So imagine in some by some freak that I sort of decided to go through the system.
	Yeah, you should just do it.
	But they'd never let me.
	Can you imagine?
	I'd have to go to a theological college and it would be like training to be a teacher where they train you not to teach but to inculcate with all this kind of... Yeah, but what would happen to you is they'd put you on a part-time pathway And you just go into like a place like St.
	Miletus or your local diocese might run a training center and you wouldn't be residential.
	So you just go in like once a month or something like that and do it for free.
	There are places where they only I've got a friend here in this diocese who did it for a year.
	So he's he's 65 now, but he's just been ordained deacon and he just had a year of training.
	I mean, and it was, you know, once once a month or something like that.
	Very, very little.
	And yeah, you do have interviews and things like that.
	But what you'd have to do, James, is you'd have to tone it down massively because, you know, some of the things you say, not everything, but some of the things you say would definitely be counted as black marks against you.
	You don't say!
	Yeah, but I couldn't do that because I would consider it sort of compromising and I think my holy mission is to speak the truth as I find it.
	Yeah, well, many people find this in the Church of England, you know, the discernment process.
	Yeah, I'm thinking of one person in particular I know who is certainly a fan of yours, who has just been going through it again.
	I think he's 65.
	He just, he basically was rejected from the process in a diocese in London.
	Yeah, and I just think, yeah, he's just a man of too much integrity and he's got very strong views on stuff to do with COVID and other related issues, you know, views which I probably almost 100% agree with.
	And I think he's just, you know, I think they just picked up on that and they just found a way of saying, oh, sorry, mate, you're too old or whatever.
	They can find any reason they want to not put you through.
	So you do have to be, if you're going to get through, you have to be, you know... Politic.
	Yeah, you have to be politic.
	Yeah.
	Or you have to just, you have to be lucky with the people because, you know, you have what's called a Diocesan Director of Ordinands.
	So that person might be really sympathetic.
	They might be like a straight down the line, Orthodox Christian, and they might be really sympathetic to you and want to put you through.
	But equally, they could be like a raving liberal heretic and they just, they're a gatekeeper and they just want to keep you out.
	It doesn't matter what you say, you know, it doesn't matter if you mentioned COVID or not, or whatever, or the vaccine or not.
	They'll just not put you through because they, you know, James, one of the things I've been thinking about recently is, you know, that scripture in 1 Corinthians where it talks about Christians being the aroma of Christ.
	You know, that's been something that's on my mind a lot.
	You know, Paul talks, I think it's in 1 Corinthians 3, I have to look, I have to look it up, but essentially he's saying that, you know, to some people we are the fragrance of life and to others we're the fragrance of death.
	And that's, that's something that sort of, I think, is that you see that so clearly in the Church of England.
	People who are genuine believers, who genuinely love the Lord Jesus and love the scriptures and love the truth, Those are the people who respond well to you because they're actually Christians and they want to hear about the Bible and they want to hear the truth, they want to hear the gospel because it makes them happy, you know, it lifts their hearts and they're enthusiastic about it.
	And then you get other people who, they'll never say this of course, but when you actually speak the truth or preach the word or whatever or speak about your relationship with the Lord, they don't like it, you know, and they want to block you because in their hearts they know deep down That they don't love the Lord Jesus and they don't love his word.
	They're not, you know, like this man in Psalm chapter 1 who meditates on the law day and night and loves the law and flourishes because of the law.
	They hate it and they want to stop people who love God and love the scriptures and love the truth.
	And so they will block you and they will try and cause as much of a problem for you as possible.
	And that is the reality.
	That, by the way, sorry it's gone a massive rampage.
	But like, you know, all this stuff that's going on in the church about, you know, I don't know if you followed it, but all this stuff with gay blessings and everything like that, you know, we're constantly being told, you know, we've got to, you know, we've got to sort of agree to differ and we've got to walk together, we've got to show love to each other.
	Now, you know, I'm not saying we don't have to show love to each other and we don't have to be...
	You know, compassionate to one another and all these kind of things.
	I'm not saying that.
	But what I'm saying is that there is a very, very unbiblical principle that's being put forward there, which is that basically it doesn't matter what you believe.
	It doesn't matter what your attitude is towards, you know, the scripture or towards Christian orthodoxy.
	As long as you're in the same church, you've got to love one another and walk with one another.
	I'm sorry, that's just not... that's not the way Christ saw it.
	It's not the way the Apostle Paul saw it.
	It's not the way the early church saw it.
	It's not the way any Orthodox Christian has actually seen it.
	It's that there are some people who are in the church who are heretics and they hate the Lord and they hate the Word of God and they are there to twist things and to...
	You have just glossed that first line.
	And we don't walk with those people.
	We oppose those people and we oppose their message because it's death.
	It's spiritual death to people.
	It's everlasting damnation and death if people believe that and act on it.
	So I'm completely opposed to that message.
	You have just glossed that first line.
	Blessed is the man who hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stood in the way of sinners.
	Now, this next line bothers me.
	And hath not sat in the seat of the scornful.
	Now, I sometimes get a twinge of guilt when I'm snarky with somebody.
	You know, I put somebody down, say, on a sort of internet quip.
	I think, oh, that's not very godly of me.
	But at the same time, you know, a bit of scorn now and again for somebody who expresses stupidity, is that allowed or not?
	Well, I think... So, that's a good question.
	I mean, in the Sermon on the Mount, Christ cautions against it, doesn't he?
	When he says, you know, you shouldn't call anyone fool and all this kind of stuff.
	But I think the caution is really against pride and ungodliness and judgmentalism.
	I was just looking, I've got St.
	Augustine's commentary here and he's using a slightly, I mean he's using, what would he be using?
	He would be using, he wouldn't be using the Septuagint, would he?
	Or would he?
	Or would he be using the Vulgate?
	Yeah, I'm just trying to see what it translates out, because you get different translations for this.
	Let's see... Well, so Coverdell and the KJV both used... Sorry, Coverdell used the Volgate, didn't he?
	Hmm.
	Yeah.
	So yeah, there's so sorry.
	This is why I knew there was something different here.
	So the vulgar is he sat confirmed in his pride.
	He could not go back.
	Oh, yes pestilence.
	Yeah.
	So so Augustine's got pestilence for their has not sat in the seat of pestilence, which he relates obviously to to the to the effects of sin.
	He was confirmed, he sat.
	So he says, Augustine says, you know, this is talking about Adam, but it's talking about sin, sinners in Adam.
	So blessed is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly.
	He's got went away.
	So he's talking about straying from the word of God.
	Then you've got nor stood in the way of sinners.
	Now standing there is about, is about obstinance.
	You know, it's about refusing to repent.
	Right.
	And then you've got, oh no, hang on a second.
	No, stood, sorry, is about enduring in sin, and then sitting is about obstinance.
	So that makes sense, doesn't it?
	It's about being sat obstinately in your position and refusing to repent.
	So I would say it probably is more about that emphasis there, rather than making a specific point about saying negative or critical things about people.
	It's not to say that there's nothing to say about that, but I think it's about the overall lifestyle of straying from the Word of God persisting in sin and then refusing to repent.
	I think that's what it's about there in that first verse.
	Right.
	And when it's talking, okay, so the way of... What does it mean by godliness?
	I mean, is it following the Ten Commandments?
	Well, I think the ultimate example of godliness for us is Christ.
	This is the way that St.
	Augustine reads this psalm and all the psalms.
	He reads them Christologically.
	When we read this, the best way to read it is to think about it in those terms.
	So, Christ is blessed because he didn't live his life in that way.
	He didn't walk in the counseling of God.
	He didn't stand in the way of sinners.
	He didn't sit in the seat of the scornful.
	But instead, and it's never about not doing things.
	This is not what the Christian life is about.
	It's not just about saying no to things.
	It's about saying yes to the joy and the delight of the law of the Lord.
	And living in line with the law of the Lord.
	And that's where that chiastic or what is the right word?
	Chiasmic structure comes in so well in verse 2.
	But his delight is in the law of the Lord and in his law will he exercise himself day and night.
	The law isn't something that binds you.
	It's not something that cuts you off from pleasure.
	That's the big mistake of our culture.
	The law is something that sets you free.
	You know, it makes you joyful and happy because you're living in line with the way that God made things to be and you can flourish as a human being.
	And then you have that beautiful image of the tree that's planted by the waterside, growing, flourishing, you know, producing fruits.
	You flip it round and you go to the other side of it, and you've got the ungodly, who are, they are judged by the law.
	So the law has another function.
	The law can set you free.
	The law can make you flourish, like Christ flourished.
	But the law also can condemn you if you Reject it.
	And if you live in a way which is against the law.
	So anyway, so the ungodliness thing, I would say, sorry, the godliness thing, I would say that's about looking at Christ and seeing what does it mean for a human life to flourish?
	Well, we see that in Jesus Christ.
	Yes.
	By the way, primarily about money or about material prosperity, although I'm certain that God does bless us with these things as well.
	But it's about flourishing in the way that we see in the life of Jesus, the life of God, the character of God, the joy of the Holy Spirit, all of these things that we see in the life of Christ.
	Yes.
	Actually, I wanted to quiz you on this one, because I've noticed on my Christian travels that there was a certain kind of Christian who thinks That basically once you give your heart to Jesus, once you accept Jesus as your saviour, it's job done?
	Yeah.
	That you're under no obligation to do any other, you know, you're saved?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
	I don't feel that's right.
	I think we have further obligations than that.
	Yeah.
	So, it's hard to understand the mentality of somebody who thinks this.
	I mean, James, there's all sorts of things to say about this.
	It's, you know, the idea that you can kind of just give your life to the Lord or make some kind of profession of faith and that gives you a kind of ticket to heaven.
	I suppose like the most basic thing to say about it is that what's offered to us in the gospel is eternal life, but that shouldn't be understood as something which sort of happens after you die.
	That's something that begins right now when we come to know Christ, you know, and the Holy Spirit comes to live in our hearts, gives us a new life, gives us a new heart, gives us a new sense of purpose, and gives us An awareness of the presence of Christ, so that we actually have a relationship with Christ, which is gradually transforming us.
	And of course, there are setbacks, you know, all the time.
	I've setbacks all the time, particularly when my buttons are pushed by my young children, who frequently cause me to act in ungodly ways.
	But the fact is, is I want to know Christ, you know, I want to grow my relationship with Christ, because I love the presence of Christ in my life.
	I love God.
	I want to know God more.
	So that's why I'm saying the law sets you free and it helps you to draw close to God.
	It's not burdensome.
	It's something that one can take delight in and one must take delight in.
	So to that person, I would say, look, it's not, you know, I wouldn't want to sort of scare you and say, look, you know, you're going to go to hell or, you know, God is going to Judge you and condemn you, you know, if you if you don't live a godly life, although I do believe in those things as realities But what I would say is, you know, infinite joy is offered to you in Christ.
	So that's what you should pursue Yes, I suppose this this Relates to another of my I think one of the reasons I'm so Taken with the Psalms.
	Yeah, which Jesus quotes all the time He's completely versed in the Psalms.
	He obviously loves the Psalms.
	Yeah, and often he doesn't explain these quoting the Psalms You just you're expected to pick up on it Which is always satisfying when you know the Psalms and you think, oh yeah, I recognize that one.
	But it seems to me that the Psalms work in parallel with Christ's teaching.
	So it's no good just going through the Gospels, wonderful as they are.
	Christ is also referring back to the Psalms as well.
	They are as important.
	Well, ooh, that's an interesting one.
	They're as important as the Gospels.
	Well, yes, I think they are assumed in Christ's teaching.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, I think, in a sense, I get what you're saying.
	I mean, Christ is always quoting from the Scriptures, by the way.
	And it's not just the Psalms, but the book of Isaiah, for example, he quotes from all the time.
	And he's constantly doing this in conversation with the Pharisees and the Sadducees as well.
	And it's all in his mind, by the way.
	You know, he's clearly memorized, probably memorized the entirety of the Old Testament.
	His dad wrote it, Jamie.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Yeah, exactly.
	But he's probably memorized the entirety of the Old Testament.
	And so I think that the kind of genius of Christ is often overlooked, you know, when you consider that he said these things sort of spontaneously, you know, he quotes from a psalm or he quotes from some obscure place in Isaiah in order to make some kind of fairly niche theological point, you know, in a moment of, you know, in a moment of heightened you know, in a moment of, you know, in a moment of heightened He'll just pull something out.
	And it's absolutely amazing if you actually consider it.
	I think what I'd say is I'd go back to that.
	Yes, I have.
	saying of saint augustine which you may have heard before where he says um the old is in the new what is it i always get this round around the wrong way the old is in the new revealed and the new is in the old concealed have you ever heard that yes i have yeah so i think i think that's that's the truth is that they have a kind of reflective um quality you know the old in the new testament the old testament is clearly about christ um but you can only really see it
	once you've encountered christ in the gospels in the new testament and then when you have you go back to this and you think wow you know this is so obviously this is so obviously about christ i mean psalms one and two what else could they be about than the lord jesus i mean it's it's so obvious or something like isaiah 53 or you know whatever whatever it might be it's just so clearly about Jesus.
	But you wouldn't be able to know that unless you had encountered Christ in the New Testament.
	So I think there's a multivalency to scripture in that sense.
	I think that those lines, and he should be like a tree planted by the waterside that shall bring forth his fruit in due season.
	His leaf also shall not wither, and look, whatsoever he doeth, it shall prosper.
	I say that, this is the exercise I do for my quad stretch in the morning against the door.
	I have a different sound for different exercises, so I make sure I get them all covered.
	And I always, I love that bit because it's so consoling, isn't it?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And it gives you that reassurance.
	And again, you know, it's flourishing, producing fruit.
	It's not about necessarily the way that you might quantify success in a kind of worldly way.
	It's about It's about the kind of fruit that God values, and the kind of fruit that we see in the life of Christ as well, isn't it?
	So, I find that very reassuring, particularly, I would say, being a vicar, because you're always looking for a certain type of fruit.
	You know, you want your church to grow, you want people to become Christians, and so on and so forth.
	But actually, there's this guarantee here that if you take delight in the law of the Lord, if you meditate on the law of the Lord, if you keep that going, that you will produce spiritual fruit.
	And there's a guarantee of fruitfulness and flourishing there.
	Yes.
	By the way, that line about his delight is in the law of the Lord and in his law will he exercise himself day and night.
	I don't know why, but that sort of reminds me of one of my favorite lines from Psalm 51.
	The sacrifice of God is a troubled spirit, a broken and contrite heart shall thou not despise.
	Where it's this constant engagement you have with this interior dialogue.
	But I think that's part of the deal.
	Yeah.
	I'm very interested in this concept of, what would you call it, like persistent or continual prayer.
	And I think this does come up in scripture quite a lot.
	So, you know, his delight is in the law of the Lord and in his law will he exercise himself day and night.
	I'm sure you're aware of the Jesus prayer, which is... The Loretic prayer, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So that came out of a tradition of scriptural reflection upon a verse, I think it's in 1 Thessalonians 5, which says, pray without ceasing.
	And again, you've got this idea here as well.
	But as I say, if you actually look for it, it's in scripture all the time.
	And it's just really interesting to me to see how this idea has been received in the tradition and to see how people have practiced this this idea of continual prayer or continual meditation and how you can actually train yourself to think about God and to pray constantly.
	One of them would be the Jesus prayer.
	But again, if you were relating this to the life of Christ, what was Christ doing?
	I think Christ, I don't know, obviously, I'm not saying I know, but he was meditating upon scripture day and night.
	You see him in the wilderness, for example, when Satan comes to tempt him.
	He quotes three times in the Book of Deuteronomy, which again, you have to think, he probably has that memorized.
	So what's he doing?
	You know, he's turning over, I think, the Word of God continually and relating it in prayer throughout his whole life.
	On the noetic prayer, you don't think that's contradicted by use not vain repetitions as the heathen do?
	You don't think that counts as a vain repetition?
	Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question.
	No, I don't actually think that.
	I think that that's in it.
	So that's in the Sermon on the Mount.
	And I think what that is, is that's Christ rebuking a certain pattern of pietistic or even legalistic prayer.
	So in the context, he rebukes the Pharisees for standing on the street corner.
	And using many words so that they may be heard by others.
	So I think there's something about that.
	I think there's also a sense in which Christ taught simplicity in prayer.
	So, you know, for example, in the Lord's Prayer, you know, our Father, that address for God was revolutionary at the time because Well, it was so simple.
	You know, there were no titles.
	You know, if you look at the kind of titles, for example, a Roman emperor would be given, you know, these long lists of, you know, Pontificus Maximus, you know, go on and on and on.
	And Christ just says, you know, when you pray, just say, Our Father, you know, so there's a simplicity in prayer as we approach Our Father in heaven.
	So in that sense, I think actually the Jesus prayer, you know, Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of God, have mercy upon me a sinner, is actually a very simple prayer and it's very much in line with the way that Christ teaches us to pray.
	Yeah.
	I think it's one of the things I like about the Orthodox Church, that they're very into this kind of meditative quality of Christianity.
	Yeah.
	Well, it's a beautiful thing, I think.
	There's a great book.
	Do you know the book, The Way of the Pilgrim?
	Have you come across that?
	No, no.
	Tell me.
	Well, it's a 19th century work by an anonymous Russian peasant.
	And it's an incredible work of the Holy Spirit, I think, this book.
	It describes this man's life and how he was basically a kind of wandering peasant, you know, wandering kind of through the wastelands of Siberia.
	And he essentially went on a kind of endless pilgrimage to learn the secret of interior prayer.
	He discovers the Jesus prayer.
	He says, you know, he learns how to use it.
	And then it becomes like a prayer, a repeating prayer of the heart.
	And it's just a beautiful book.
	I've read it several times.
	It always lifts me up spiritually when I read it.
	I genuinely think it's a work of the Holy Spirit.
	The fact that it's anonymous as well, nobody knows who wrote it.
	Nobody knows who this guy was.
	But it's an enduring spiritual classic for that reason.
	So yeah, it's a great book.
	Do you think that the only way you're ever going to attain something close to spiritual perfection is to do all those very, very tricky things that Jesus asked you to do, like, you know, giving away all your money and, I mean, you know, doing what that peasant did.
	If we all became hermits, is that, I mean, if we're living in the world and earning a living and stuff, are we so tainted by that that we're never going to get there?
	I don't think we can achieve spiritual perfection in this life.
	I mean, there have been people, I think John Wesley thought that we could essentially attain a kind of, to a state of sinlessness.
	So that's an interesting question.
	But in terms of, I think it was Soren Kierkegaard, oh sorry, I just pulled the cord on my laptop.
	I think it was Soren Kierkegaard who said that holiness was a To be holy is to will one thing.
	I think that's the quotation.
	Or to be righteous is to will one thing or something of that sort.
	But anyway, the point is, the reason that comes to mind is because I think that that's possible to do or at least to some degree, in whatever circumstance you find yourself in life.
	And this, by the way, was one of the major emphases of the Protestant Reformation.
	The idea that, you know, you don't necessarily have to go to a sort of monastery in order to live a full and godly life.
	But you can actually you can actually relate what you're doing.
	You know, you can relate your work.
	You can relate your labour.
	I think Martin Luther talked about, you know, making shoes, you know, and things like this, ordinary things.
	You can relate to married life, you can relate being a parent.
	Whatever it is, you can relate all of that to God, you know, because all of life belongs to God.
	There's not this kind of separation between sacred and secular, which is a massive aspect of modern life, obviously.
	It's a huge theme in modernity.
	So you can will godliness and holiness in the situation that God has placed you.
	It doesn't necessarily mean it's There are no distinctions.
	Like, for example, when you're a parent, you know, I've got four small children, there's a challenge there because I can't spend all my time meditating upon scripture, at least in a kind of, you know, in my office, you know, with my Bible, because they'll just come in at some points and disturb me, you know, or my wife will want me for something.
	So there are demands on my time, but I can still, within the context of my time, will holiness, righteousness, and do what I can as well, you know, get up early, read scripture, memorize scripture, you know, pray, you know, do whatever.
	So that's kind of my answer.
	I don't know.
	What do you think?
	Well, it's part of this internal debate I'm always having, because the more I think about it, the more aware
	I am of how I fall short of, I mean there's some really demanding stuff that Jesus asks you, I mean okay, so I don't spend as much time sort of lusting after women as I used to, but I do, I think I'd be very upset if I had to Well, if I drank wine, I'm sure I don't.
	But if I did, I would want to drink Grand Cru Burgundy.
	I wouldn't want to drink, you know, sort of five-quid-a-bottle stuff.
	And I wouldn't want to... If I went on holiday, I'd kind of like a certain level of accommodation and stuff.
	And I recognise that this is not what Jesus is asking of you.
	He doesn't really want you to be... Isn't it?
	I mean, John chapter 2, you know, you've saved the best wine until now.
	I mean, this is... Oh, well, thank you, John.
	Thank you for giving me that consolation.
	Yeah.
	I suppose that Jesus seems to tell us that Straight as the gate, and that it's easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter.
	Not that I'm rich, but I haven't given away all my possessions, nor do I intend to.
	So does that mean I'm a kind of failure?
	No, no, I don't think so.
	I mean, I think with the rich young ruler, the reason that Christ tells him to do that is because Christ could see into his heart that he loved his riches more than he loved God and he was attached to them in that sense.
	And he had to get rid of them because he had to be set free from the hold that they had over him so that he could be free to pursue a relationship with God.
	So I think that, you know, it reminds me of a scripture in Philippians chapter 4 where the Apostle Paul talks about, you know, I'm not going to quote this perfectly, but essentially he says, I've learned how to have plenty, I've learned how to be in need, you know, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
	I know how to be brought low, I know how to abound, all this kind of stuff.
	So he speaks there about, you know, different moments in life where you have lots or where you have little.
	The point is, is that you learn how to relate the circumstance that you're in to your relationship with Christ.
	And I would say that if you've got lots of money, the challenges... So the challenge of money, and we're all rich, you know, in the Western world.
	Yeah, well that's... Most people.
	The challenge is, number one, can you have money in such a way that it doesn't have a hold over your heart?
	So were you to lose it, would you be like one of these stockbrokers on Wall Street who gets a revolver out and blows your head off?
	Or would you be able to handle it?
	That would be a good question.
	A second question would be, are you generous with the with the abundance that God has given you, because that's the best way to, you know, to fight against that idolatrous love of money, is to give it away, you know, and to be generous and to take delight in blessing other people.
	So that would be another... Actually, you know, I was thinking about that with the woman I was telling you about earlier, this woman who's, she's got, she's loaded, and she's a Christian, and I only discovered the Christian thing quite recently, but she's a really, really good person.
	She uses her money well.
	She entertains people.
	She makes the world a better place.
	And I think that seems to me to be Christianity in action.
	It's kind of answered my question.
	And it's certainly possible, isn't it?
	And I don't know this woman, but you can imagine sometimes, and maybe it's a rare thing, but you can imagine like somebody who's so rich, but they're also so godly as well, that they almost want to get rid of it.
	You know, they almost think, you know, this is just, this is vanity and emptiness.
	And really I just, really I just like to be, I'd like to do something radical.
	You know, I'd like to be, I'd like to just get rid of it all.
	I'd like to sell my house and give all the money to the poor and, you know, be like Francis of Assisi.
	There's a sort of, There's a sort of yearning to be almost free of whatever it is that entices you away from Christ.
	And I think that's another thing I see about riches as well.
	It's like the more you have of them, I think the more difficult it is.
	That would be my suggestion.
	Because there's something about...
	There's something about wealth that creates anxiety, because you've got so much to lose.
	I think that must be what it is, you know, the more you have, the more you've got to lose, isn't it?
	And so you feel like you have to guard it and protect it.
	And you become like, you know, you become like Smaug the dragon, don't you?
	Lying on your, you know, piles of money.
	Well, I think that's, you know, where Moth and Rust corrupt, death corrupt.
	It's, that is the anxiety of treasures on Earth, that Yeah, it's going to be either the moths are going to get it, or the thieves are going to get it, or the... Mind you, gold doesn't rust, so I'm not sure that's strictly... Gold and silver doesn't.
	Thieves can get it, of course.
	Yeah, thieves can definitely get it.
	I wanted to ask you another aspect about the Psalms, which is... Okay, so I think I've got about 30 under my belt so far, and it gets harder and harder to go through them all every day, as you can imagine.
	You go through them every day, really?
	Yeah, I'm becoming like a kind of a monk basically.
	I have to do it on car journeys now.
	I used to listen to podcasts and sometimes now I think, well you've got to keep your Psalms up to speed.
	And one of the recurring themes in the Psalms, and it certainly appears in Psalm 1, is they all seem to be, well so many of them seem to be saying, When are the ungodly going to get their comeuppance?
	And the Psalms are always sort of promising it.
	Don't worry, it's going to happen.
	Psalm 37 is a classic one of this.
	Threat not thyself because of the ungodly.
	Neither be thou envious against the evildoers, for they shall soon be cut down like the grass and be withered even as the green herb.
	So yeah, it's going to happen, but it never actually happens now.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's an eschatological judgment, isn't it?
	And that's the way I would see it.
	And you're quite right.
	It's right here in Psalm 1.
	So, therefore the ungodly shall not be able to stand in the judgment, neither the sinners in the congregation are righteous.
	Again, observe the symmetry there with the first verse.
	These sinners are standing in the way of sin.
	And then later, they are not able to stand in the judgment.
	So they are not judging others, nor are they in the congregation of the righteous.
	So they're not involved in that good judgment, but they are themselves The subject of judgment, you know, they are seated and they are under judgment.
	So that's definitely there right at the beginning of the Psalms.
	And the way I would see it is, yeah, I would see it as an eschatological judgment that will happen at the end of history.
	So this is judgment day?
	Yeah, Christ will judge, you know, and you see this, for example, at the end of the book of Daniel, at the end of the book of Revelation.
	You know, all people, everyone who's ever lived will rise again if they've died, or they'll just be there if they're not dead, and they will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, as the Apostle Paul says, to receive what they've done and the due reward for what they've done in the body, whether good or bad.
	So I think that's what the Psalms is doing, it's consoling you by saying, you know, a little while longer.
	And the ungodly will be judged.
	Just a little while.
	You've got to keep going because there is a just judgment and it will happen at the end of history.
	And again, like, as Western people, I mean, maybe you don't struggle with this as much, but lots of Western people find that kind of thing difficult because they think, oh, you know, we're all kind of nice and good.
	But actually the majority of people throughout history have lived with a terrible sense of, you know, the majority of kind of righteous good people have lived with a terrible sense of injustice, you know, of evil and wickedness that just goes on and continues unabated and the ungodly never seem to get what's coming to them.
	But the promise of the Psalms, and I would just say the scripture in general, is that one day God will judge the earth and he will put everything that is wrong right.
	It will happen eventually, but in God's timing.
	That's the point.
	Yes, yes.
	Yes, little while and the ungodly shall be clean gone.
	Thou shalt look after his place and he shall be away.
	You know.
	It's so, it's such a beautiful, it's such a beautiful verse, I think.
	That is from Psalm 37, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that is just, it's, it just, it's a wonderful thing.
	And when you, when you put it together with the eschatological images in the rest of scripture, you know, Isaiah 35, for example, or in, you know, Revelation 21, when it talks about, you know, God being with his people, wiping away every tear from their eye, they're being, Their eyes, there being no death, no crying, no weeping, no pain, no grief anymore.
	The wicked are judged and they are removed and God is with his people.
	And there's this peace and this joy and this life which we all yearn for and we want, but we don't have it now.
	And the judgment of the wicked is absolutely part of that and the removal of the wicked from the land.
	Do you think it's going to be as bad as a Bruegel painting, like the Triumph of Death or something?
	Because if we take the scriptures at their word, it's going to be really, really, really, really, really bad for the ungodly.
	Yeah, I mean, it's hard.
	So I was talking actually to my, I've got a catechism group here, and I was talking about this issue the other day.
	I think we have to have humility when we are considering this issue of, you know, who's going to be sent to eternal Eternal perdition and who's not, because really we don't know.
	What we do know is that God has given us a way to escape eternal damnation and death and judgment, and that is to put our faith in Christ and to cleave to him on the basis of his sacrifice on the cross.
	So that's our message.
	That's what we've got to say to the world.
	Now there is a judgment coming and it will be a judgment for sin and it will be a just judgment.
	And the way it looks is, you know, if you look at our culture, it looks like, you know, 95, 96, 7, 8% of people just live as though there's no God and they're going to get a terrible shock.
	But I think that the The godly kind of attitude is to will and to hope, actually, that it's not as bad as it looks.
	It's not going to be as bad as it looks.
	There's a book by a Roman Catholic theologian Hans van Balthasar, which is called Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved.
	And I think what Balthasar says, really, I mean, to boil a quite complex book down, is he says, we can't really hope that all people will be saved.
	Well, no, he said we can't expect that all people would be saved, but we should hope that as many people will be saved as possible.
	I think that's kind of what he says.
	And I think there's something to that, if that makes sense.
	Yes.
	I suppose my problem with the whole Judgment Day thing is that...
	Say, regularly sacrificing children to Satan and torturing them first and then harvesting them for adrenochrome is not in the same league as, I don't know, forgetting to feed your cat or not loving your neighbour as yourself on occasion.
	Yes.
	Most people fit into the latter category rather than the former.
	Yeah, I think that's right.
	And I think that one of the things I think we have to understand about the judgment of God is that we accept in faith that it will be a just judgment and that everyone will understand the justice of God's judgment when it happens.
	So it's easy to kind of preempt it and say, well, it wouldn't be just if God did X, Y, and Z, and maybe it wouldn't be, but then when it actually happens, it will be just.
	We just don't know.
	The judge of the earth will do what's right, you know, in the words of Abraham.
	And I think the Bible does teach different judgments for different people.
	I don't think it's just a case of, you know, some people going to heaven and some people going to hell.
	I think there's a little bit more nuance in that sense.
	And I think the thing about, you know, People doing bad things.
	I mean, I do think people will be judged for doing bad things.
	And I do think, you know, people who sacrifice babies to Satan will be sent to hell and they'll suffer a just judgment as a result.
	And that will be the right thing.
	And that's, by the way, why one of the reasons why I think hell is such a good idea is because it's the only appropriate sentence for people who do these things, unless they repent, obviously.
	But what I was going to say is that it's not, it's not so much about not, you know, what was your example, like the lady who... Well, no, I gave a rather frivolous example about not fitting a cap.
	People who love their neighbour, who don't love their neighbours themselves, that kind of thing.
	Yeah, so what I was going to say about this is that it's not so much about the fact that they've done sort of minor transgressions.
	It's that, you know, God gives us, you know, life and breath and our existence and every, you know, he gives us the sun and the rain and the world to live in.
	You know, he puts us in this position of glory and honor as, you know, Psalm 8 talks about in this kingly position in creation.
	And then we just ignore him and act like he doesn't exist.
	And, you know, Romans 1 teaches us that everyone knows that there is a God deep down.
	We suppress this knowledge because we want to live selfish lives.
	We want to live idolatrous lives, ultimately, where we're obsessed with ourselves or we make some kind of idolatry of God's creation.
	And this is what ultimately we're judged for.
	We're judged for rejecting the one who has created us and given us all these things.
	And the other thing I'd say about that is that it's actually, in many ways, it's a kind of dignifying of the free will that God has given us.
	Our wills, or let me put it this way, our ability to make choices, that is an immensely significant thing.
	It's not inconsequential.
	And it's not just about, you know, will I choose A or B now and it will affect the rest of my day.
	It's like the choices that you make in your life, With regard to God and eternal things, that will determine your eternal destiny, and that will be your decision.
	You know, you've got a decision to make, and it's a real decision, and it will make an internal difference.
	So that's a really serious thing that tends to be underplayed, I think.
	Yes, you've gone halfway to answering what I was going to ask you next, but I'm still going to drill deeper, as they say, into this point.
	So the world is a giant brainwashing exercise.
	And part of that brainwashing exercise is to take us away from God.
	And our whole culture is geared towards that.
	We've got a godless, you know, Netflix is godless.
	The publishing industry is godless.
	Schooling is increasingly godless.
	Now, some of us were lucky enough to have had a Christian grounding at our schools and stuff.
	Is it really fair of me?
	I've had this advantage.
	I've been introduced to God.
	maybe I went through a period of life where I was a bit kind of, you know, not a bit of a bit of a cultural Christian rather than a proper one.
	But is it fair to blame somebody who's been say a victim of our crappy schooling system and, and has spent all their time on, on Instagram and on, what's the other one that the Chinese one that, that.
	Oh, TikTok?
	TikTok, yeah, yeah, exactly.
	I mean, they've just been moronified.
	Can we blame them for rejecting God when they didn't really ever have cause to be aware of him?
	In The Great Divorce, C.S.
	Lewis says, those who truly seek joy will inevitably find it or something like that.
	say those who truly seek joy will inevitably find it or something like that so um it's it's not so much about the you know the advantages that we've been given as the disposition of our hearts Now, as I say, in Romans chapter one, the apostle Paul does say that the existence of God can be known in the things that have been made, you know, because his eternal power is clearly perceived in the things that have been made.
	So the knowledge of God is very democratic in that sense.
	We all have...
	And the ability to perceive God in the existence of the things around us.
	But I would say not just in the existence of things around us, but just in the notion of existence itself.
	The very fact that there is anything at all tells us intuitively that there is a God.
	There is something infinite and eternal beyond us.
	So even, you know, you're savage on, you know, an island in the Pacific can have access to this knowledge.
	And this is actually something that the Apostle Paul, I think, also goes on to talk about in uh romans chapter two so in chapter in chapter um one he says all that stuff that i just mentioned but then he says and forgive me because i use a modern translation when i'm doing more kind of exegetical things but he talks about the fact that the gentiles if they do what the law requires then they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts and
	And I think it's not really, really explicit, but I think what the Apostle Paul is saying here is that even without the written law, you can still actually live in a way which is in line with what God wants, because God is actually written the law of god in a sense on our hearts and that
	and that that would i'd relate that to things like you know virtuous pagans like um you know socrates or aristotle these people they wanted to know the truth they they dedicated their lives to knowing the truth they didn't have access to chris the christian religion so i would i would put them in that kind of category yeah i was just amused that thinking how very different your reply is to the one when i asked a calvinist minister oh yeah yeah and And his line was basically, well, you know, it's already been decided.
	Yeah.
	Was that, was that Doug Wilson?
	Yeah.
	Oh, was it the one in America?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Doug Wilson.
	Yeah.
	Who I, by the way, I really liked Doug Wilson.
	He's great.
	I just, I just find that kind of Calvinist predestined, double predestination.
	I just think it's abhorrent and unscriptural, but it's probably going to make lots of Calvinists hate me.
	But I am unapologetic in that.
	I just think it's, it's completely wrong personally.
	Before we go, because I know you've got to get off, but I was thinking you were quoting liberally from the epistles and I'm never going to do a series on the epistles, I doubt.
	And maybe you can answer my question.
	Yeah.
	How come?
	Why is it?
	I'm reading the epistles at the moment and every now and again I come upon a paragraph like the ones you've quoted, I mean like that lovely one from Philippians.
	And you think, this is so inspirational and so true and it speaks to me.
	And you have to wade through acres of turgidity of just kind of stuff that really makes you not want to be a Christian.
	And you think, who is this boring git?
	How do you explain that?
	At times he writes the purest poetry, you know, Ephesians 6, for example, and he tells you exactly like it is.
	Other times it's just like, go away, shut up, you boring man!
	Yeah, I mean, I don't know really, apart from to say that I think, you know, the Bible is the book God wants us to have, and it's got a kind of Perennial enduring quality for that reason and that there are certain there are certain parts of the Bible which are more obscure and difficult for us by reason of our disposition or our ethnicity or our cultural assumptions and things like that.
	So for example, I don't actually know which bit you're talking you're speaking about which you found really turgid, but like give me Romans.
	I can't stand Romans.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, I mean, I think part of it, and you know, I don't mean this in a sort of condescending way, but part of it is an issue of comprehension.
	I think as we come to understand these books better, then they can come alive to us.
	So like the Book of Romans, for example, is really the central question I would say about that Paul's trying to answer in the Book of Romans is how can it be that Christ has come and given this message of the gospel and it seems to be the Gentiles who are responding and the Jews aren't?
	When the Jews are God's people, how can that be?
	How can God be just?
	How can the covenant promises still apply to the Jews and so on and so forth?
	And if you read it under that framework, it makes a lot more sense.
	By the way, there are still some really good parts in Romans, you know, Romans chapter 8.
	Oh yeah, I don't like the one where he talks about, you know, whether you should What you do about oppressive rulers and stuff and authorities and stuff.
	Romans 13.
	Yeah.
	But that's often, I mean, that's, yeah.
	Okay.
	Well, yeah.
	So that's, that's another day without getting into like specific issues or the book of Galatians.
	I mean, the book of Galatians is one, which I personally, it doesn't, it doesn't warm my heart.
	Like the book of Philippians is just, you know, for me, it's just four chapters of just pure spiritual inspiration.
	It's a work of It's a work of inspired genius.
	The Book of Galatians is trying to answer this question about, you know, circumcision and the law and there's so much like which is so knotty and complicated.
	But then there is something about that question, which is absolutely fundamental to understanding the nature of Christianity.
	There's a sense of incoherence there.
	it's antecedent in judaism and it does need to be clarified because otherwise there's a there's a there's a sense of incoherence and a sense of incoherence there the other thing i'd say as well is this is a really important it's a really important point to make is that christianity is um it's not like islam it's the So we don't have a book which is, you know, written in heaven, you know, by the finger of God and then dictated to Muhammad.
	It's a book which is, sorry, it's a religion, which has a divine component, but it also has a human, creational component as well.
	And you see that in the authorship of scripture.
	So it's, you know, it's not, God didn't possess the apostle Paul and make his hands right.
	The books that he wrote, the epistles that he wrote, and this goes for all the biblical authors, they are expressive of his personality and of the kind of, you know, his education, the styles that he used to write in, the way he thought as a human being.
	And so they are expressive of who he is as a person.
	Sometimes clear, sometimes inspirational, sometimes turgid, sometimes, you know, what would you say, irascible.
	So there's an important theological point there to make, which is that God uses human beings, and he doesn't just possess us and take us over.
	He uses our personality.
	He uses the idiosyncrasies of our personalities, even in the writing of Scripture.
	So I think there's something there as well.
	Sorry, one more question.
	Sure, yeah.
	I was reading this bit, was it Numbers, I think?
	Or possibly Leviticus?
	And this person breaks the Sabbath.
	And he gets killed?
	Yeah.
	What's going on there?
	Well, I mean, we'd have to look at the specific passage in question, but I think that the So, just as a sort of principle, when you're reading all that stuff about the law in the first five chapters, well, the first five books, well, it's actually from book two to book five, I suppose, what God is trying to do with the people, what the Lord is trying to do with the people, is he's trying to teach them about how to live in relationship with him.
	And, you know, they've been taken out of Egypt where they've become Egyptians, you know, culturally, philosophically, religiously, and God is trying to teach them about His holiness, His greatness, you know, the uniqueness of God, and how they need to take that really seriously.
	And although, you know, I'm not saying this is an entirely satisfactory answer, but I think you've got to see it in that context.
	It's more than just about, you know, the individual action of breaking the Sabbath and more about teaching the community about God's holiness and about the need to live in relationship with him in obedience to his laws and so on and so forth.
	Right.
	But on that note, how much do you think Jesus cares about us keeping the Sabbath?
	I mean, is it as important, is it a life-threatening thing in the same way it would have been in the Old Testament?
	No, I mean, what I'd say there is that you look at what Jesus says about the Sabbath, and I think the sort of cardinal saying is that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
	So, the point is, is that God's, and it comes back to what we were talking about earlier, the law of God It's ultimately about the blessing of humanity.
	So the Sabbath is given to us not as some kind of burden to lay upon ourselves as the Pharisees, you know, with all their rules and everything like that.
	The Sabbath is to set you free from exploitation.
	That's the point of it.
	And this is why it's such a terrible thing that we've got rid of the Sunday trading laws in this country.
	And people say, well, this sets us free.
	It doesn't set you free at all because now you have to work on Sundays.
	Now your employer can insist that you work on Sundays.
	Now all the shops are open on Sundays, so you feel like you have to go to them and you have to buy stuff.
	That's not freedom, that's actually bondage.
	And so when Christ says the Sabbath was made for man, he's saying the Sabbath is a gift, you know, have a day off.
	Enjoy yourself.
	Enjoy the creation.
	Stop buying stuff all the time.
	Stop working.
	You know, this is something I find as a vicar.
	I just think, like, stop bloody working on Sundays.
	You know, it's a day off.
	Like, why do people find it so hard to take a day off?
	You know, the world isn't going to collapse if you stop working.
	And that is something, like, we've tortured ourselves with this notion in our culture that we have to keep working.
	We have to keep going all the time.
	It's torturous for the soul.
	The Sabbath is balm and light and rest and joy and peace.
	That is a good answer because I had been thinking about this.
	I was thinking how, particularly in periods like during the Industrial Revolution, for example, and earlier, How easy it would have been for people to have been forced to work seven days a week.
	Yeah.
	And God gave us that.
	No, you can't you can't work because it's my will.
	So we had a ready-made excuse.
	I'm sorry, but you may think I've got to do this, but actually God's told me not to.
	Yeah.
	Do you know the film Chariots of Fire?
	Yes.
	I love that film.
	Can you imagine a film like that being made nowadays?
	You know, where the hero is a guy who won't run in the Olympics because he wants to keep the Sabbath.
	No, no, no.
	There's a great line where they confront him, you know, they get all the worthies in and I think the Prince of Wales is there and one of them says to him something like, in my days it was It was King first and God second.
	And he says something like, you know, I can't remember exactly what he said, but the line, it ends with him saying, the Sabbath belongs to God.
	And I intend to keep it that way.
	I mean, I just love that.
	I love that line.
	I love the obstinacy of it.
	You know, I don't care.
	I don't care if I don't win an Olympic medal.
	I'd rather keep God's law.
	I mean, that's a beautiful thing.
	Well, Jamie, I've waited ages to get you on to do a psalm.
	I'm so glad.
	It was well worth the wait.
	I've really enjoyed talking to you.
	Well, listen, James, I've had a great time.
	I mean, you're a fantastic conversationalist and interviewer, and I just find it an absolute pleasure.
	However long we've been talking, it's just flown by.
	Oh, well, thank you.
	Tell everyone about where they can find Irreverent Pardoned.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, yeah, so I am part of a podcast, Irreverent.
	Irreverentpod.com is our website.
	I've got two co-hosts.
	We're all sort of dissident vicars in the Church of England.
	I mean, I say we're dissident, really, we're just Orthodox Christians who, you know, believe the Bible.
	And, yeah, we do a weekly kind of topical podcast we occasionally have guests on, so irreverentpod.com for that.
	I also have a substack, jamiefranklin.substack.com, where I write about
	um devotional issues in my life really and just sort of thoughts i have and i'm a vicar as well so if you live in or near winchester i'm the vicar of an anglo-catholic church called holy trinity winchester and you can come to church or mass as we call it which is at half past 10 on sunday mornings so seriously do drop by because we're we're we're a growing church you know i've just been here for a year but uh it's really exciting being part of this local church and and and um i want people to partner with me in in the ministry here and i want to uh
	to be a community of disciples growing in our faith together.
	So please come along at 1030 Upper Brook Street in Winchester.
	Join us.
	And you'll find, by the way, people who listen to The Delling Pod in my church.
	Real fans, genuine sharklings, and others as well with unacceptable opinions.
	So, you know, come along.
	Excellent!
	Excellent.
	That sounds like a destination service.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, Jamie.
	And thank you, my beloved viewers and listeners.
	If you enjoyed this podcast, you can support me.
	If you want early access to my podcast, you can support me on Substack and Locals, Subscribestar or Patreon.
	Or if you just want to give me a tip, you can buy me a coffee.
	And you can support my sponsors.
	I don't normally put sponsors on the podcast, but on the Psalm one, but generally you can support my sponsors.
	And thank you for watching and listening.
	And thank you again, Jamie Franklin.
	Oh, and everyone spread the word about the Psalms podcast.
	I mean, I think Christians, you know, get the message out.
	Psalms are good.
	Absolutely.
	Thank you, James.
	Really enjoyed it.
	Great.
	Thanks a lot.

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