Roman Bystrianyk is a researcher and co-author of 'Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and The Forgotten History'. He challenges the conventional wisdom on the role of vaccines and other medical interventions in the decline of infectious diseases.↓ ↓ ↓If you need silver and gold bullion - and who wouldn't in these dark times? - then the place to go is The Pure Gold Company. Either they can deliver worldwide to your door - or store it for you in vaults in London and Zurich. You even use it for your pension. Cash out of gold whenever you like: liquidate within 24 hours. https://bit.ly/James-Delingpole-Gold
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Welcome to the Delling Pod, Roman Bistrionic.
I've probably got it wrong, even though you just told me.
Bistrionic, but Roman's cool.
Bistrionic.
Roman, I've been enjoying your book that you wrote, I mean a while back now, what, 10 years ago?
Yeah, 2013.
Called Dissolving Illusions.
And I think a lot of us who are down the rabbit hole have been desperate to find a book that they can give to their normie friends and relatives to show them
That these jibby-jabs, these vaccines that they've been taking cavalierly all their lives, without questioning them, are not as sold to us.
Can I ask you first of all, was there a time in your life, as there was in mine, when you thought that vaccines were just great?
I thought they were fabulous.
I thought they saved everybody's lives.
This is what I thought.
I mean, I think that's what most people think.
And honestly, I don't remember being taught that.
It's just some kind of societal consciousness, or I picked it up from somewhere, but I thought vaccines saved everybody.
You know, somebody invented them way back in time, and now we don't have all these horrible diseases.
So yeah, I was certainly on that bandwagon.
Yeah.
You're right.
It's become such a sort of piece of received wisdom that it has the status of an unquestionable truth.
I didn't question it at all.
No?
No.
Until I ran across something by accident and I was like, wait a second.
What did you run over?
So, well, it's a little bit of a story.
I ended up listening to various health programs over my life because I had various health problems which I resolved, but it got me curious to listening to a program out of New York, the Gary Null Show.
And on there he had lots of different health programs.
And then sometimes he would have people talking about vaccines.
I'm like, oh, okay, I'll listen to this.
I had young kids at the time.
And I listened to that and they were talking about neurological damage.
And I thought, wow, that's that's not good.
But I thought, like I just said, I thought there were vaccines and they saved millions of lives.
And, you know, OK, we have some neurological damage, but I thought there's scientists working to make them better.
And so, you know, that's that's kind of stinky.
But, you know, that's just the way it is.
We're saving millions of lives and a few people get damaged.
This is my thinking at the time, because I didn't know anything about it.
But I picked up a few books.
I can't remember all the books.
And so I was paging through them and I was quite concerned about the neurological damage.
I forgot what books I'd picked up, but this is a long time ago.
And I picked up one book by Neil Miller, and in it he had a chart in there.
that showed the decline in measles mortality by 95% before there was a vaccine.
And honestly, I thought the guy was crazy.
You know, I just thought this chart must be made up.
This doesn't make any sense because it hit my belief system smack in the face.
So I threw the book on the table and ignored it for a few days.
on the table and ignored it for a few days, but then curiosity got the better of me.
But then curiosity got the better of me.
So I went to a local library, picked up a few almanacs.
So I went to a local library, picked up a few almanacs on the third one.
And the third one, they had deaths for measles every 10 years from 1900 to 1960.
They had deaths for measles every 10 years from 1900 to 1960.
And so, you know, I put them on a little piece of graph paper because it's a long time ago.
And so, you know, I put them on a little piece of graph paper because it's a long time ago and there, there was the same basic graph.
And there was the same basic graph.
And I just sat there and stared at the, at the chart for a while because that didn't make any sense to me.
I thought the vaccines came along and saved everybody, but this chart is showing something a little different.
But then I thought, well, maybe the almanac's wrong.
So I decided to go to a local medical library in New Haven, Connecticut, Yale medical.
And I was able to get in there.
I said, Hey, I'm here to use the library.
And the guards like, okay, just sign here, gave me a sticker.
And I walked in, I have no idea what I'm doing there.
But I did find these big olive green books that were us vital statistics, which made sense to me.
That's where the data would be.
Right?
So, So I started paging through them and I thought, well, I'll just find it in one spot, but I didn't.
I had to go from the 1900s, the early 1900s, all the way to the present, which was, I think it went up to the 1980s.
And I had to go through all these different books and find pieces of data had never heard of, but so I got the data for measles, whooping cough, you know, et cetera.
And, um, you know, so I photocopied these because that's what you did back then.
And I thought, um, you know, I'm just going to take all this data.
I'm an engineer by training.
So I put all this stuff into a spreadsheet.
When I got home, I had to go back a couple of times to get all the data because I didn't have everything in one shot.
That's, Anyway, so I filled in my Excel spreadsheet and I could see the numbers going down.
So I was like, well, I can see how this is going, but I didn't, I didn't chart it till I had all the data.
And then I hit the chart button essentially.
And I was like, wow, you know, we're down 98% before 1963, uh, for measles deaths.
And there's, that's the best data you could have USB.
vital statistics.
And it just blew my mind.
And then I did the same thing for whooping cough.
That was down 90%.
And then I noticed all these other diseases like typhoid and all these other ones, and I charted those.
Those all went to zero without any vaccine.
So I'm like, you know, the whole story didn't make any sense anymore.
But I did question myself quite a long time.
I kept on reviewing the data.
I double-checked it, triple-checked it, quadruple-checked it, but the data was spot on.
And years later, I found the same charts for measles and a few other things in a CDC, actually a US Vital Statistics 1960s book, and it's on our website.
You can just go download the PDF, go to page 85, and there's the same chart I would create decades later.
So I know the data is correct.
And so then it, you know, raises the whole question is, well, why is that?
Why are, why did the mortality rate drop?
Why don't I know this?
I should be told this.
So, you know, my doctor and the CDC should have these charts on their website and say, yeah, this is the data.
And then you can still decide whether you want a vaccine or not.
But most of the problem was already solved by the time that we came up with a vaccine.
But, um, but that's okay.
You can still get the vaccine, but I, But that's not done.
You're not given all the information before you get a vaccine.
And so that's the basic story.
I also then got data from England.
From a particular guy in England, which I forgot his name.
Kind of embarrassed, but that was a long time ago.
Anyway, he gave me the CD for it, which I had to transpose all this data into the spreadsheet.
And I was able to get historical data because England began gathering statistics in 1838.
The United States started in 1900.
So I had data going farther back into the 1800s.
So I was able to get a lot of historical data and chart that.
And then when I charted that, it just blew my mind even more because measles deaths had fallen by 99.8% before they started vaccinating in 1968 in England.
So that's pretty much 100%.
99.8% did you say?
99.8% from the peak.
When you look at these charts, and I can show you the charts if you want, but it's basically death, death, death, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, death.
Near zero, and then the vaccines came out.
Same thing with whooping cough.
This is from the peak down to when they started vaccinating.
Same thing.
You had deaths between 50 and 60 per 100,000, and it was down to like 0.1 per 100,000.
And so that was down 99.7%.
And it was down to like 0.1 per a hundred thousand.
And so that was down 99.7%.
So again, most of the work had already been done.
It wasn't the vaccine that saved all the lives.
It couldn't have been because they came in much later.
And so that just got me so curious and trying to understand what happened and why You know, why I didn't know.
And then after a while, after doing a lot of reading and photocopying and trying to understand the whole thing, I decided I should write a book.
Because I didn't think anybody else had this information for some reason, which was mind-boggling to me.
I mean, the data's available.
The CDC has the data.
Why wouldn't you give the data to the people?
But they don't do that.
So, that's the basic story.
I think that question you asked, Why do we not know this?
Why do I not know this?
Is maybe one of the most important questions of ever actually.
Because the answer is it's partly the fault of the people who are deliberately withholding this information from us or burying it in places where we can't find it easily.
But it's partly our own fault for Swallowing these lines without ever asking any questions.
I mean, I remember when my kids were at the age when they start trying to press vaccinations on them.
And although I sort of took a mild interest, I mean, I insisted that our children got their MMR shots separately, which may have saved them from autism.
don't know but I was still getting them jammed and I would be reading the newspapers and there would be articles that this would have been say what 20 years ago 25 years ago I remember reading articles in the papers which I believed at the time saying experts say they are very worried about about children not taking the measles vaccine and and if this goes on it could be result in a serious outbreak of a very serious disease and
And you kind of took it as read that measles was going to kill your children if you didn't get them vaccinated.
Oh sure, that's what I thought.
Yeah?
Yeah, I mean it's just, it was ingrained, you know.
But when you look at the data, you realize that, and you read some of the literature from the 50s and 60s, they were like, oh, measles, it's a mild illness, it's self-resolving, it's two or three days, and it's not a big deal.
This one in the British, I think it was British Medical Journal, they said a particular clinician was talking about over 10 years, Nobody, there was no serious outcomes or any deaths for measles over 10 years.
That's because by the 50s and 60s, it just wasn't a big, serious illness.
And Dr. Klenner, you know, could solve these problems very easily.
We'd give him vitamin A and vitamin C and no problem, you know.
He had very mild cases when you did vitamin C. So, you know, it wasn't a serious problem.
There's, you know, Well, correct me if I'm wrong, when I was growing up, I remember measles doing the rounds and it not being thought of, you know, oh yeah, he's got measles, we've got German measles.
I don't know whether they're the same thing, but it was like normal.
It wasn't a, oh my God, we've got to isolate this person for a month and sterilize everything.
It was just like, yeah.
Yeah, none of those things.
I remember when I was a kid, nobody cared.
It wasn't a big deal.
I'm sure I got some vaccines, but I'm not really sure which ones I got.
Because they started coming up with the stuff in the 40s, 50s, and 60s.
But really, by that point, these things were not considered a big problem.
It's been It's not to say they're not a problem, but they've been blown way out of proportion.
Like there's some kind of, you know, death sentence, which they're not.
Yeah.
And besides these things, you know, the other question you have to ask is if you have a nearly a hundred percent reduction in mortality, well, why?
Which you think these people in charge would say, well, why was that?
Not only, you know, not only here's the vaccine and the vaccine is not really that important, then why did it decline?
You know, and no one seemed to ask that question, which is like a really obvious question.
It's like, well, if it wasn't the vaccine, what was it?
And usually somebody will say antibiotics, but even antibiotics don't answer the question either because they came on the scene much later.
And so it's like, why is that?
And that is a question I asked and tried to figure out what really happened.
And the other interesting thing is in England, they had a scare about the DTB vaccine in, I think it was the 70s, late 70s.
So vaccination rates dropped.
And if you look at the data again, you see from the 1900s down to the 1970s, whooping cough had declined in mortality to near zero.
And then when you had this big drop in vaccination rates, down to like 30%, there wasn't a big spike up in deaths.
There was no visible indication that there was an increase in deaths.
And another case was in Sweden.
They, I forgot the exact year, they stopped vaccinating for 17 years at the national level because they found that the vaccine was ineffective and possibly dangerous.
That was their conclusion because they saw around 80% of children who had three doses of vaccine were still getting whooping cough.
So they found it to be ineffective.
So they stopped vaccinating for 17 years.
There's no, there was no increase in whooping cough deaths.
It was the same.
So it makes you think, why are we doing this?
It's just because we're doing it?
It didn't make any sense to me.
Yeah.
Well, we'll come to why they're doing it a bit later on.
If you went, this is very unfortunate, but I think it's probably true, that if you were to go out into the street now and tell people, look, vaccines don't work, they never have worked.
If you look at the statistics, they will show that the mortality rate was falling precipitously before vaccines were introduced.
And if you quoted the 99.8 measles thing, A, they wouldn't believe you.
They really wouldn't.
And then B, even if you showed them the graphs, I would say that the majority of them would still go, yeah, but the small difference at the end was worth it.
Or they would question your data.
Yeah, I've shown people the charts and sometimes they just kind of, you see them blinking almost like they can't, it just doesn't compute and they just kind of move on to something else.
It just, it's hard.
It was hard for me.
I mean, I sat probably doing the same thing in the library a long time ago going, How could that be?
I mean, that can't be true.
So I understand that's what people go through, but usually they just press on through the feeling and just ignore it.
No one's questioned the data.
I mean, the data's rock solid, so... I suppose what I'm saying is... It's basically a fact, yeah.
Go ahead.
Your book is rock solid in terms of presenting information which clearly shows that these diseases were all declining massively before vaccines were introduced, and that vaccines basically don't work and never have worked.
We still live in a world, I don't know whether you noticed, we just had this massive fake pandemic where lots of people were coerced or bribed or bullied or whatever into taking these shots.
And most people did so willingly.
I mean, this was, as you say, nearly 10 years after the publication of your book.
So if facts can't bring people round, what hope is there?
Well, I think it can.
I think it just takes time, because these things have been around a long time.
It's a multi-century indoctrination of belief systems.
So you have to present information, and then people have to come to their own conclusions.
They have to look at it, and they have to figure it out for themselves.
Here's the data.
Here's the information.
And I have to say that I'm actually quite surprised.
When we published the book, I thought I'd sell a couple hundred copies, I was done with vaccines.
I did research for 15 years.
I had enough of this stuff, so I just let it go into the wild.
There's a lot of people that have been influenced by it, and they look at the data and they've shifted their positions.
I'm hoping that people take that information and make their own books and do their own videos and write their own articles.
You can have a societal shift.
So, but it's, it's, you're overcoming a lot of momentum.
So, and belief systems, belief systems are hard to shift.
And part of the human condition is to not ever want to think you're ever wrong.
So people get really upset.
They're told they're wrong.
And so that's part of it too.
So it's not just, here's the data.
Well, I have to be wrong then.
I've been hoodwinked, and people don't like to think they got hoodwinked.
It can happen, I just don't know how long it will take.
Have you developed a successful technique for bringing people around?
No.
Because somebody like me, I just show them the facts, and like, if you don't believe it, you're a dick, basically.
Go away, you know, go away and die.
Which I know doesn't really work, so what's your method?
Uh, no, I share my information.
If you're interested, you're interested.
If you're not, you're not.
If you're not ready for it, then you're, it doesn't matter what you say.
Cause they get, you know, people get angry and I don't get angry.
I'm like, okay, that's fine.
You know, here's the information and maybe later on you'll be ready for it.
Maybe you'll never be ready for it because people get really into their own, own head to believe that they're correct.
So if the data is not convincing and the information is not convincing, then nothing I say is going to convince you anyway.
I let people look at the information and I say, yeah, check the references, check the charts, and no one's ever come back and said, yeah, that was wrong.
It's actually been quite successful, it's just still on a small scale.
I can't imagine you get invited to literary festivals because they're controlled by people who... No, I haven't.
I mean, I've done podcasts and things like that, but no.
That's our Weapon podcast, but you see... We've been invited to a few events and things like that, but they're very...
They're not very mainstream, we'll say.
No.
That's it.
Yeah.
But, you know, that could happen any time.
And it doesn't have to be me or Suzanne, which is the co-author, who is a brilliant woman.
It doesn't have to be.
Anybody can make a presentation.
And I'll give anybody my PowerPoint.
Take the PowerPoint.
Here's the charts.
Here's some quotes.
Here's all this.
And put it together and make your own presentation.
Do it anywhere you want.
It's not going to show up on CNN or Fox News, but who cares?
They're dinosaurs anyway, so they're going to go away.
I'm totally with you in spirit, and I don't want to run you on your parade, but I used to be a normie.
I used to operate in a relative normie world.
I've published several books in the Normie publishing field, and how it works is this.
So if they want your book to be a bestseller, they will put you round the literary circuit.
For example, you'll go to all the literary festivals.
No, you'll be on the stage and the audience will love you.
Your book, Would have been perfect for one of those festivals.
You can see people turning up and going, Oh, that's interesting.
That 99.8% figure.
I never knew that.
But you're never going to be allowed near these people because the people who control publishing are also in bed with people who run the vaccine industry.
It's all corrupt.
Yeah, it's all, I call it the sickness industrial complex.
So there's a lot of moving parts to it and no one wants to rock the boat because, you know, about anything.
So everything just kind of chugs along because they're all happy with the way it is.
And then, you know, anything that disrupts it, they'll just basically ignore.
There was a lot of doctors in the 1800s that questioned vaccination, the original vaccine for smallpox.
And they wrote books, they wrote articles, they were just basically sidelined and they just went on their merry way and just continued doing what they were doing.
Yeah, so it's hard to overcome that much momentum and that much influence that people have.
But we're in a different era.
We have the internet, we have people sharing this kind of information.
And I'm hoping it shifts.
I'm hoping it shifts radically.
Not just for this, but other issues as well.
Other health issues.
And because the real secret is, you have a lot of control over your own health.
You don't need to have all these different things done to you.
You can modify your health quite well.
I know.
Sure.
I mean, I suspect you'll be preaching to the choir with most of my viewers and listeners.
But here's the thing.
I was going to ask you about all the doctors, going back to the Edward Jenner era, who questioned vaccine efficacy.
And it kind of proves my rather depressing point, which is that since the birth of vaccines or vaccination, There have been numerous distinguished figures who've called out the scam.
And here we are in 2024.
When was Edward Jenner around?
When did he do his first sort of early?
Well, he started earlier than 1798, but that's kind of the time frame when he goes, oh, look, I have a vaccine.
Let's start doing it.
He had done experiments on his kid earlier than that.
But yeah, 1798 is the The timeframe for Edward Jenner and his, it's basically the same thing as the original inoculation.
So the original inoculation started around 1720, which was taking some material from lesions on somebody who died from smallpox.
And then you would scratch it onto somebody and expose and take that material and put it into their arm so that you would get smallpox earlier.
And then you would be protected because you had smallpox.
Right?
Well, of course, that didn't really work.
And then Budden, set by 1798, he came up with this idea.
I'm going to take it from an animal instead.
And then I'm going to do the same thing.
We're going to scratch your arm repeatedly with a lancet, which is a sharp knife.
And we're going to take this material, this pus, and smear it into your arm.
It wasn't a hypodermic needle like you think about now, right, where you're just injecting yourself.
You literally scratched yourself four or five different patches and you smeared this stuff into you.
And of course, nobody would do that today because that sounds like a bad idea.
You might get sepsis, which is probably what happened oftentimes.
So you smear the stuff from an animal into your arm, which for some reason people thought was a great idea.
Yeah, what could go wrong?
What could go wrong?
But the mythology is it was from a cow, and the cowpox virus is somehow modified and protects you from smallpox, but it never worked.
And he thought it was from a horse.
He thought it was from a disease called the grease, which was a kind of a disease on the horse's heels that got transferred to the cow.
He also thought goat pox was another good thing.
And people used all sorts of different things.
They used things from mules, from buffalo.
So they used all these different animals to produce vaccine materials.
So it was not just from a cow.
Because vacca is the Latin word for cow.
That's where you get the word vaccine.
But it wasn't from a cow.
Actually, Jenner thought it was from a horse.
So it should have been called Equination instead of Vaccination.
But it was actually from all these different animals, and you would take the stuff from one person's arm and go to the next person's arm, the next person's arm, the next person's arm, and it was arm-to-arm.
It was called arm-to-arm vaccination because people didn't want it from animals.
They wanted it from somebody's arm because they felt that was better for some reason.
And so they had arm-to-arm vaccination for a hundred years.
What could go wrong?
So it wasn't really from a cow, it was from person to person to person to person.
And there was a faction of people that believed you would take the lesions from somebody from smallpox, you would take their stuff, and you would put it onto the cow, and then the cow would make some kind of magic material, and then you would take it from the cow, and that's what you would use the vaccine.
So that was another kind of vaccine.
So there was all these different notions that all came under the brand name vaccine.
Which of course there was never such thing as a vaccine because it was from all these different animals and people.
So it was quite a menagerie of different things.
And then by the end of the 1800s, they were able to look under the microscope and see, wow, there's actually bacteria in this stuff and fungus and all sorts of stuff in there that, well, we just, they, they had this idea that there was this pure virus in this lesion that they would give you.
But of course it was filled with all sorts of stuff.
So they would be smearing this concoction of bacteria and fungus and, and blood into your arm.
And depending on how deep your scratches were, it would go into your blood supply and then what could go wrong?
So, a lot of people ended up very, very sick or died from this procedure.
And it never worked right from the beginning.
Yes, and yet, if you were to ask people about most reasonably educated people in Britain, certainly, I don't know what story you get told in America, but the story we get told here is that this very famous and brilliant man called Edward Jenner
I hypothesized that smallpox, which was one of the deadliest diseases of the time and was disfiguring everyone and leaving their faces pockmarked and hideous, noticed that dairy maids were not disfigured, and so decided to see whether cowpox was the same as smallpox, and lo, he discovered that actually
With this brilliant process he devised called vaccination, he saved the world from smallpox and made people more attractive at the same time.
And he's been memorialized in history as one of our great scientists.
That's the story we're told.
They sometimes say he saved more lives than anybody in history.
And it's just a fairy tale.
It's not real.
Just from what I described, that you scratch different animal pus and human smallpox pus onto an animal, onto your arm multiple times, that would get into your bloodstream, this is not a smart idea.
And it didn't work.
Uh, so right out of the gate, there was doctors talking about in 1805, 1810, 1820, um, that they, they, they saw this and they saw that when they vaccinated people died from the vaccine.
And then at some point they would, the, the, the kids or the people would get smallpox anyway.
It was well known early in the decades that after a while they were like, Oh yeah, you're going to get smallpox after the vaccination anyway.
The medical profession latched on to this very quickly and it became embedded into their thinking within a couple of years.
It was just so fast that it became a worldwide phenomenon, kind of like the Hula Hoop or Pet Rocks.
Because it was a money thing, do you think?
Oh, they were able to convert that into a lot of money and a lot of prestige.
Even the original inoculation There were people that became very wealthy doing the inoculations.
That's the smallpox on your arm kind of thing.
There were people that were very wealthy.
They became quite famous.
But this was just to a whole new level.
So how did the inoculation work?
Because it's different from vaccination, isn't it?
It's just taking the lesions from somebody who had smallpox, so they have some bumps, right?
You take the stuff from their arm and they scratch it onto your arm.
Vaccination only differs because it comes from an animal.
Right, okay.
It's the only difference really.
So for that procedure, which sounds fairly simple to me, just sort of scratching the lumpy bit and then moving it onto somebody and cutting their arm and smearing it, I can do that.
Sounds like a wonderful idea, yeah.
I mean, I'd wear a special outfit to do it.
Maybe I could charge more, but that's just what it is, isn't it?
And they got rich doing that.
Right, well, originally he was promoting it as anybody could do it.
Which, of course, anybody could do it.
But later they kind of said, no, no, we're the special And so they, you know, you had these vaccinators, that was their job.
You know, that was part of their income stream.
And the people that broke away from it, they said, well, I had to give up 500 pounds a year by not vaccinating.
So because you got the government involved, governments got involved.
They're like, Oh, the medical men convinced these guys that we have to do this to stop smallpox.
And so they jumped on the bandwagon and started putting, you know, laws in place to force people to get this stuff.
That was the original compulsory vaccination, but that's, they, they forced people to do this for decades.
One of the interesting things, I mean, there's lots of interesting things that emerge in your book.
One of the things that surprised me is that smallpox was really not that big a deal in the great rogues gallery of diseases.
It was not a guaranteed killer, if you treated it right.
Is that right?
Well, yeah, so what's very interesting is We kind of look at a disease as this microbe that causes a disease, and that's the end of it, right?
But there were doctors, including Thomas Sydenham, 1680s.
He was considered the father of English medicine.
He said, well, smallpox is basically a mild disease if you treat it correctly.
There were other doctors throughout the decades that said the same thing.
They said, well, it's a mild disease if you don't mismanage it.
And what they were doing, the medical procedures of the time, and it varied from the 1700s into the 1800s, is if you had a fever or you had smallpox, they would bleed you and bleed you repeatedly, even if they suspected you had it, right?
They would also do something called the Hock Regimen.
They would put you in a confined area without fresh air, no water, And the idea was to kind of like sweat it out, essentially.
Right.
But how did that work?
It didn't work very well because people who did that died quite rapidly.
So that wasn't really a great idea.
And they also decided to use toxic things like mercury to clean out your whole alimentary canal.
And this is how George Washington was killed.
He wasn't killed in battle.
He was killed by doctors because he had a cold or the flu.
So they started bleeding and then they brought the doctors in.
So they bled him more.
They ended up bleeding enough to kill him.
And they also gave him mercury to clear out his whole alimentary canal, which for some reason they thought was a great idea.
They also did these blister packs and other things that were portable.
And so he died of medical error, basically.
So you had these different three main things, bleeding people, you had the hot regimen, and then you had toxic things like mercury, which was a very common medication.
You know, I wouldn't call it medication, I'd call it poisoning, but they thought it was medication.
And so you get these things all together.
People would die, especially the hot regimen.
Because Thomas Sydenham still believed in bleeding, so he still was doing that.
But besides that, he didn't have too much trouble with smallpox.
So what was he doing?
Well, he was not doing hot regimen.
He was doing what he called the cold regimen, a cool regimen.
So he wasn't keeping people hot and confined.
So he was giving them fresh air and water.
So yeah, so he was getting a lot more success.
There was a Thomas Massey in the early 1700s.
He was an apothecary to Christ's Hospital.
And when they first came out with this inoculation thing, which again is taking smallpox from somebody and putting it onto you to try to give you smallpox, he thought that was crazy.
He called it, instead of inoculation, he called it incantation.
He said, why are we doing this?
I've been taking care of kids for 20 years at Christ Hospital.
There's usually about 600 kids in the hospital at any given time, and there's only been like a handful.
I think it was eight deaths from smallpox over 20 years.
It's not a big deal.
You know, if you're treating it, why are we trying to prevent it in the first place?
But see, this is where statistics can fool you, right?
So if you get smallpox, right, and you have smallpox, and then you bleed somebody, you put them in a hot room and give them mercury, what do they die from?
Smallpox.
So you check off the smallpox box, not the medical nonsense box.
And the other factor was the people that were still dying in the 1700s were Isomastyc called the miserable poor.
So the people that were very, very poor who didn't get enough food, because food was a big problem, there were still people starving.
So if you didn't get adequate food and all these types of things that we take for granted today, you could end up in serious trouble or die.
But they didn't check off the box, a diet of being hungry or starving or miserable poor or malnourished, none of that was checked off.
It was like you die from smallpox.
Because that was the medical slant on how you interpreted what happened.
So, if you and I were walking in the woods and we caught cholera, we wouldn't need to worry, would we?
Now, today.
Well, I don't know.
I wasn't talking about cholera, but... Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Smallpox.
Yeah, yeah.
So...
Yeah, what's interesting is, again, statistics aren't what you think they are.
Let's look at measles for a second, right?
So, in the 1800s, let's go for an example.
Okay, say you're a 12-year-old girl, and you're working in a factory 12 hours a day.
You get inadequate food.
Your water supply has human feces in it, and animal feces, and industrial waste, and that's the only water you get to drink.
And you work day in, day out.
Food is inadequate.
You may not have any good place to sleep.
You might have to sleep with vermin.
So your life is really, really, really difficult and you're not going to be healthy.
You may be exposed to all sorts of chemicals in the factory.
that cause all sorts of problems to you.
Your teeth may be loose, you may be just vitamin C, vitamin D deficient, because in the bigger cities, coal is being burned, so that's being thrown into the air, so you're blocking sunshine.
So you have all these things happening, and then you come down with an illness, and you go out in the hot sun, you sit down, and then you die.
And people say, well, you died from measles.
Well, did you really die from measles or did you die?
Poor health, and you know, this kind of thing, right?
Or there's instances where there was smallpox, let's say there's smallpox, and they talked about people being in a room, just a room about the size of this, maybe 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 people in a room, with no ventilation, again, inadequate food, poor water, overworked, and people would, somebody would die from smallpox, Supposedly, right?
And then they would be like, what are we going to do with this guy?
Maybe we'll bury him in the wall because we don't have the money to actually have him buried.
They had intramural burials.
And so what did the person die from?
He died from what?
Smallpox.
That's the checkbox that would get checked, right?
They wouldn't die from malnutrition or just poor living conditions.
So, what did people die from?
Look at those measles charts.
As the 1800s went by, and life improved, and some of these dumb medical notions went away, by the 1950s and 60s, measles was not a big killer.
It's not like measles changed.
It's the environment and the health of the people that changed.
And that's always been the case.
You don't have to worry about these things as much as people have been told to worry about them.
So, you know, so no, I wouldn't be, I'm not afraid of any infectious disease generally.
I mean, you, you can still get something like whooping cough, which I think is a bacterial disease that gets into your lungs and it has a nice warm environment to multiply.
So you can be sick for a while, but I think you can handle that without too, not a horrible amount of trouble.
Yeah.
One of the more upsetting aspects of your book is the lengthy descriptions of what it was like living in a city before the era of proper sanitation.
Yeah, so you're forced into the cities because you can't sustain yourself out in the country for various reasons, so you move into the cities.
You get some kind of factory work, or you're working in a mine, and you find some place to live.
A lot of people lived in crowded quarters.
Sometimes you had to live in a basement and the basement was overflowing with, you know, vermin and feces.
Because where did you go to the bathroom?
You went in, you went out the window.
You know, there was, and maybe there was an outhouse or something like that.
But that eventually all went into your water supply.
And so you're in these crowded conditions.
The feces go into the, into the water supply.
The animals are roaming the streets.
They would bring in like cattle to slaughter inside the, you know, city limits.
And of course they're going to the bathroom.
That's going into your water supply.
There's no refrigeration, so all your food instantly starts rotting, and then flies are landing on it.
And if you had horses in the city, then the horses are pooping everywhere.
And of course, the flies must have been horrendous, flying all over the place.
So it was not like the movies, where you see everybody with top hats and parasols.
It would have been quite horrific.
And so you have all these factors, and depending on the time frame and what the city was, you're dumping in tons of soot into the air that you're breathing.
So not only are you living in an industrial toilet, you're basically in a chimney.
smog all the time with all the sulfuric acid.
And so whose lungs are gonna be healthy?
And you're also dressed in a particular way that you're getting like almost no sunshine.
Your vitamin D levels will be near zero.
And vitamin D is a critical factor in your whole system.
It's involved in 5% of biological functions.
So your vitamin C levels are low, your vitamin D levels are low, and then you're probably miserable.
Who's going to be a happy person?
You're not out in nature.
You're not, you don't have any real prospects of ever surviving.
And so you have that, you know, that horrible depression is not going to help you either.
It's, it was a miserable existence for many, many people.
And they died often, uh, thirties and forties of old age.
You know, you just, you're just worn out.
Your system's worn out early.
And so who's going to be healthy?
No one's going to be healthy in that environment.
Now, if you were a wealthy, then you did a lot better.
And, um, There was always a disparity between the poor and the wealthy.
The wealthy usually did much better.
So, you know, the environment made all the difference.
The environment and the health of the people, that was key.
And that's what changed starting in the mid 1800s, 1870s.
Then you started having piped water, and then you had inventions like electricity, the greatest invention ever, because this is how our whole society works.
And then eventually you had ice boxes and then refrigerators.
You had cleaning up the streets.
We had the cars come in, so you didn't have horses pooping all over the place.
In your streets.
And then, you know, sanitation.
So now you're managing your waste before they were not managing their waste.
And because you have refrigerators, your food is not instantly rotting.
Transportation brought the food into the cities.
You had more fruits and vegetables, whereas before, you know, maybe you didn't get any.
And so you had all this stuff change at the same time.
Labor laws started coming in.
Child labor laws started first.
You know, oh, sorry, you can't have your five-year-old work in the mines Which is insane, but that's what was going on.
And so slowly that changed so that over the decades they pushed the age up further and further.
And then there was labor laws so people didn't have to work 12, 14, 16 hours a day at the same time.
So all these things came together.
And then they started having public schools because public schools were, uh, I know people don't sometimes like public schools now, but back then, would you rather work in a mine or a factory or go to school?
So kids were protesting to go to school because that was a much better alternative.
And then you could learn to read and do some math and things like that.
So you're getting more educated.
And so all these things came together.
So from like 1850 to 1950 was the most amazing transformation in society.
And we don't even talk about it.
So, if you had to name the peak horrible period, if you went in a time machine and you'd just be wading through poo and slime and dead animals and stuff, what was that period?
That was basically through the 1800s, yeah.
1800s to like 1870s when they started really cleaning things up.
1880s.
That was the real horrible period.
People in London, if you look at, they didn't have national statistics, but they have the London Bills of Mortality in the 1700s into the 1800s.
So that's just for London.
And if you made it past five years old, then you could be living into your, um, 50s and 60s.
Some people in their 70s, 80s, 90s, 100s.
So back then, it was a little bit better despite not having all this stuff because they didn't have as many crowds.
I think that was it.
London wasn't like jammed.
So it had been under a million people.
Some people did better.
But if you were poor and kids frequently died early, Um, so once you got past that, you can see it's like a bell curve, which is similar to what it is today, except it's a little bit more shifted down to the earlier years.
But yeah, the industrial revolutions always talked about, oh, we made steam engines and we had all these great inventions, which is true, but they never talk about how it was miserable for the people.
And a lot of people died in coal mining.
Just coal mining alone was killing 5,000 people a year around the world.
I mean, that was a dangerous profession.
It still is, but not as bad.
And then all the soot and all these things we're talking about, it was horrific.
5,000 a year sounds not a lot.
I mean, when you said it against the number of people, for example, who've died as a result of COVID vaccines.
I mean, well, yeah.
Yeah, but, you know, the point is, industrial revolution, they never talk about the downside, you know, what's happening to the people.
The pollution, the deaths, the misery caused.
They always talk about the advancement in society.
All these things did happen, but they don't really talk about the downside.
Before we move on, there's a couple of questions about the early period I want to ask you.
The first of all is, I tried showing your book to someone who thinks that I'm a nutcase and that I'm a conspiracy theorist.
They sort of picked, you know, they accepted some of your points, but then they said, yeah, but obviously vaccination must have worked, because what about Lady Mary Wortley, was it?
The woman who came back from the Orient with... Well, if that wasn't vaccination, that was inoculation.
Okay, so did that work?
Uh, no, not really.
Orient.
Did that work?
No, not really.
I mean, certain things are labeled as inoculation, but they changed over the years.
The original inoculation was to really kind of scratch it pretty deeply, put the pus from somebody's arm and kind of bury it into you, and they had a two to three percent mortality rate from that procedure.
Later on, it was shifted.
Well, from sepsis or whatever, from going... Well, you died from something, they didn't really say, because it was a dangerous procedure.
as you might imagine, you went through an illness.
So you really got sick.
It wasn't like, oh, I got a shot.
Okay, go ahead.
Off you go.
You got sick, which is kind of obvious, right?
And so you got sick.
They tried to actually treat you.
They tried to get you during a point where you were super healthy so that you went through this thing and survived.
But you had a 2% to 3% mortality rate.
So those people didn't do too well.
They died.
So they were out.
And if you look at the data, well, then later on, there was another guy.
Oh, the guy's name.
I forgot the guy's name.
Anyway, late 1700s who came up with a different method.
And he took the liquid from somebody's arm that had smallpox early on before it created pus.
And then he would do very shallow scratches.
And they put the material in there.
And those people barely ever got sick because they basically weren't doing anything.
And so that became very popular, because as you might imagine, nobody wants to get really sick, so it became very popular.
But there was inoculators at the time saying, this guy's a fraud, because you're not actually going through the illness to give you immunity kind of thing.
So you had this inoculation procedure that was going on, and it varied, like I just said.
But if you look at the data, London Bills and mortality from 1600s into the 1800s, you see that smallpox deaths increased over that period by about 50% from the time they started inoculating until the year 1800.
So smallpox deaths increased.
But then again, they were also doing this hot regimen.
They were also bleeding people.
So it's really hard to say, but inoculation certainly didn't get rid of smallpox.
If it did, we wouldn't have vaccination in the first place.
So smallpox continued on.
But you're dealing with a very, very powerful spell that has been cast here.
And I'm just wondering whether there's any way to penetrate this, to de-hex this spell.
Is there any evidence ever from history that any form of inoculation or vaccination has worked, has done what it's supposed to do ever?
Um, so the only original vaccine, well, the inoculation was smallpox and they were fixated on smallpox.
They didn't like to target any other disease, um, which then shifted in 1798 to vaccination and that went on for over a hundred years.
Um, so that was the only thing around for until early 1900s really.
So, that was the only thing that they were using, and the vaccination was, I think, an abysmal failure.
I mean, you kept on having smallpox outbreaks all the time, and it didn't start declining and become a mild disease until the end of the 1800s.
So, did it work?
No, because people would get smallpox anyway.
Did they get people was a safe agenda said it was safe and would and effective, but it wasn't either because people would get sick and die from the vaccination or be.
Their health would be completely ruined.
Right.
Tuberculosis was a well recognized at the time by various doctors that that would happen as a result of vaccination and syphilis and or syphilis, which was a horrible skin disease.
So there are all these things that were known by various doctors at the time that was what happened when you vaccinated somebody.
So syphilis, did you say?
Syphilis, yeah.
Syphilis, leprosy.
Yeah.
I thought syphilis was purely a sexually transmitted disease.
So you mean a lot of people with syphilis were actually vaccine injury victims?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I don't know the percentages, but yeah, that was one of the things they would get.
So it wasn't safe, it gave you other diseases, and it wasn't really effective, because by the very late 1800s, 1895, 1897, smallpox suddenly became much more mild.
1897, smallpox suddenly became much more mild.
It was no longer a big killer.
It was declining in more lethality at the same time as whooping cough and measles and tuberculosis were all going down, down, down at the same time.
And And same thing with smallpox.
By the early 1900s, smallpox was being confused with chickenpox.
It wasn't really considered much of a disease anymore, although they kept on vaccinating for it.
And I think the reason is that people's health improved, and they stopped doing hot regimen, and they stopped bleeding people, and they stopped giving mercury.
So, I think all those things came together, and smallpox was no longer a threat.
Not really.
So, it faded in most of the world, where as Thomas Mack, Dr. Thomas Mack, said, you know, why did smallpox go away?
It was because of economic development, which is basically what we're talking about here.
You know, things improved.
So it wasn't the vaccine that got rid of it.
He said so himself.
It wasn't the vaccine.
I'm very interested in what you say about tuberculosis because...
If there's one disease that crops up again and again in the literature, the Victorian literature, it's TB.
It's this kind of ghostly thing that stalks people, including sort of upper-class families who would have had access to all the sanitation you were talking about.
I'm just wondering, to what extent do you think the TB that took so many people in Victorian times was actually vax injury?
Um, so tuberculosis was probably five to six times more of a big killer than, or five to seven times bigger killer than smallpox.
If you took whooping cough, measles and smallpox, put them together, it would have been smaller than tuberculosis deaths.
They used to call it the white plague or consumption because it would consume you, consume you as a person.
There was a number of factors that were involved.
All these different types of things that they were doing in society, which were toxic.
Again, it's the same thing.
Living conditions were awful.
Your whole life was awful.
And how much did vaccines contribute to it?
There was a lot of doctors that said a lot of times it was, but I don't think there's any way to really know what percentage.
But what we do know is by The 1940s and 50s, you know, tuberculosis had fallen by 98% as well before they had came out with an antibiotic and the BCG vaccine.
So, again, it fell by 98% before there was a vaccine.
And if you look at the trend line after those interventions came in, there's no difference in the trend line.
It's basically the same.
And Thomas McEwen, I think it's Thomas McEwen, had looked into this in the I forget what year.
He wrote a book about this, or wrote this part of his book anyway.
And he said, yeah, it was down 98% before there was any kind of medical interventions.
So it's not the medical interventions that saved us.
So it's just the improved living conditions.
It's not all these other things that we've run around and think we have to do.
Do you remember getting your BCG jab at school?
No, that's another interesting thing.
So, no, because they don't do that one.
What do you have?
Well, we have the usual MMR and DTP and that kind of stuff.
No, but when you were a boy, did you not have the BCG?
Not that I recall.
Oh, I have my little stupid vaccine booklet that's not in there.
I don't think it's in there.
Oh, yeah, we had to.
It was a really big deal and, you know, everyone said, you know, have you had your BCG jab yet?
Wait till you get... Oh, is it out?
Yeah, it does, yeah.
I think that came out in 1954, but it didn't, if you look at the trend line again, it didn't impact the mortality curve.
No, I know TB was not a thing, was it?
Within our lifetimes, but I'm just, I wonder whether In novels set in the 21st century, people are going to be dying of long COVID, as it'll be called, and no one will be admitting it's actually vaccine injury.
Well, that's the problem with statistics.
You check off a box saying somebody died from this, which is never true.
It's never true.
It's like, oh, you died from a heart disease.
You had a whole lifetime of experiences that contributed to that.
Maybe you're a vitamin D deficient.
Maybe you ate a lot of food.
Maybe you smoked.
All these things contribute to something.
And it's really your health profile more than anything else.
It doesn't have anything to do with all these other things going around.
And what's very interesting is there are plenty of doctors in the 1800s who were talking about how tuberculosis was not infectious, and they were convinced of it.
One guy had 50,000 cases, and he said there's never been a transmission.
60 years in the Brompton London Hospital, no one ever caught tuberculosis.
But if you read the websites today, they say it's a highly infectious disease.
Well, that's not what they were talking about in the 1800s.
It was only considered infectious once they found some kind of microbe that has to do with it.
But people were not catching tuberculosis at all, which is kind of interesting.
So I was reading the section of the book on Edward Jenner and there was one thing I thought, a question I wanted to ask you, which I got the impression that after only one case,
Supposedly treated successfully, Jenner then went to Parliament and said and campaigned for sort of national vaccination rollout, as I suppose it would be called now.
And he got a surprisingly receptive hearing.
Is that right?
And if so, how?
How did this guy must have had connections?
How did he get this?
It's a little bit more deep.
There's more of a story in between those.
So, he went to Parliament in 1802.
By that time, vaccination was already a thing.
Okay.
He had given this stuff to various doctors to test, and they kind of determined, yeah, this is kind of working, but their test was flawed.
So, remember I was talking about the inoculation that was kind of like this weak inoculation?
Well, they were using that as a test, but when you did that inoculation, you didn't really get sick.
So if they gave you a vaccine and then they tested whether your vaccine worked, it would give you this weak inoculation.
Of course, you wouldn't get smallpox because it was at a weak inoculation.
And Dr. Creighton noticed this later on in the later 1800s.
It's like, You know, this was a faulty test, but somehow the people of the era decided it was a very valid test, but it was completely phony from the beginning.
It wasn't a valid test, but they got people on board and they quickly decided this is the greatest invention ever.
And they just started doing it.
And then, and once it caught hold, so you had different doctors, um, writing whole books in 1810, 1805, 1810 saying, no, this is not working and people are dying from the vaccine.
But, They were just ignored.
But there must have been some, I hate to use the word conspiracy, but there must have been some manner of conspiracy.
Because you've got all these doctors speaking out against against vaccination.
You've got this guy, Edward Jenner, who's just kind of a random person somehow getting lots of MPs on board for this.
Yeah, so there's always more details to understand, but from my understanding, he caught the airs of a particular duke and royalty.
Royalty was a big thing back then.
And eventually the royalty said, yeah, this is a great idea.
And so the parliament followed whatever the royalty wanted.
And so it just, you know, it just became a thing.
It just quickly just mushroomed.
And even though the... even though people...
Had seen it fail, the majority just kept on doing it.
There was even a case in 1800, I think it was 1800, where they had vaccinated a bunch of kids, let's say 50 or 60 kids.
And they thought that was great, but then that was in the spring.
In the fall, most of them got smallpox.
And so they sent somebody to investigate and they said, well, yeah, it didn't work, but you know what?
We're already, we're not going to get rid of it because we're already doing it.
We're too deeply embedded already.
This is like right away.
Rational people would have said it failed and we're going to stop doing it, but that's not the way societies work.
There was too many people already doing it and too many people already invested in it.
I don't think it was a conspiracy.
I think it was just ignorance and people started getting paid for it and they just kept on doing it.
Yeah.
And they would tend to ignore their... they would vaccinate somebody, and they would go check how the vaccine had worked, and that was it.
You know, if you came down with tuberculosis later, or some kind of illness, they usually didn't correlate it to anything.
They just let go.
Something else happened later.
Or if you got some skin disease, They just didn't attribute anything negative to it.
And that's true for any medical procedure.
You know, they just, once you start doing something, you don't want to blame the medical procedure you're doing because that would be bad.
You know, your, your livelihood is based on that.
And even back in the 1800s.
So you were getting paid to do this procedure and you're getting paid pretty well because the state was now paying you, right?
And you were getting paid pretty well And it was the law, so you didn't want to go against the law.
And if you did go against it, you'd be called a crank, which is kind of like an anti-vaxxer.
You would be called a crank, so you would get labeled as a crank.
And who wants to do that?
So everybody would go along with the program.
You're getting paid.
You're getting paid well.
You don't want to be called a crank.
I mean, you don't want to go against the law.
So that's why it stuck.
So tell us about the Leicester revolution or whatever it's called.
Leicester sort of rejected the vaccine, didn't it?
Yeah, so smallpox was still around.
You had 1872, there was a big outbreak of smallpox across many different cities in the world.
It was a huge spike up.
They even talked about it in the medical journal, The Lancet, how many people had died from smallpox despite vaccination.
But they basically blamed it on, well, maybe the vaccine wasn't that good.
So it was a lying machine even then, the Lancet?
No, they talked about how many people died, but they tried to figure out why it failed.
And they just blamed it on various factors.
I think the lymph was too dry or whatever.
They called that the material they were using, lymph or whatever.
But and so and people over the decades experienced a lot of problems and deaths.
So you would have you vaccinate your children and one of them would die.
And so that happened over and over again.
And by 1885, people had had enough.
And they started not vaccinating and they would get fined.
This is before 1885.
They would get fined and if they couldn't pay the fine, they had to go to jail.
That was the law, right?
And more and more people were saying, I'd rather go to jail.
And so it created this buildup in the courts where they couldn't even process the number of people that were just saying, no, I'm not doing it because a lot of people realized you were better off getting smallpox and getting vaccinated.
And so they just had enough.
And the town was requiring vaccination.
So I don't know exactly how it manifested, but they got people from all over the place Hundreds of towns to come in and protest and the number of people that showed up was between 20 and 100,000.
So that was quite significant in this town of Leicester.
So they had this big rally where they had floats showing sources of vaccination, a cow, a horse, these types of things, and goats, because they knew this was where they got this vaccine material from.
Or they would have a float where they would give the long drop, which just hanged Jenner, And all these things, and they had freedom, banners of freedom, you know, personal choice, liberty, that type of thing.
I feel like I've been to one of those rallies.
They're very similar to the ones today.
Yeah, yeah.
So they had this big rally, and then after they all marched through the city streets, they ended up at some town centre, and they had speeches.
And, uh, you know, they said, you know, we're not going to, you know, we're not going to put up with this basically.
And there was one old guy that came up and he was in tears saying, Oh, I never thought this would happen that we get rid of this thing.
I had, I was vaccinated as a kid and was injured and then eventually got smallpox and I'd rather have smallpox and be vaccinated.
Uh, I think that's what he said.
Um, so there was a lot of people that were just had enough.
And so they were able to change their, uh, town government.
And the town government's like, okay, you don't have to get vaccinated anymore.
Screw it.
No, that's okay.
Vaccination rates dropped down to 10%.
Most people weren't getting vaccinated anymore.
And everyone died of smallpox, I bet.
Yeah, so that's the end of the story. - Sorry.
No, what happened is the medical man was saying, well, yeah, you're all going to be very, very unhappy because you're ignoring the blessings of Jenner.
If you let a kid who's not vaccinated into school, he's like a bag of gunpowder.
He's going to kill everybody.
You know, these types of things.
But they just said, screw you.
If we have smallpox, we're going to just do isolation, and we're going to make sure our streets are clean, sanitation.
There was a big sanitation revolution at that time, so they were just improving the health of their city and the health of their citizens.
And they always did better for smallpox deaths.
They still have smallpox deaths, but they were always better than all the towns around them, like Birmingham.
They always did better.
And for the next 60 years, 62 years, until, whatever, 1948, they did fine.
There was low vaccination rates.
That spread to all of England.
Vaccination rates decreased across all of England from the 1800s into the 1900s.
And so not a lot of people were getting vaccinated, unless they were being forced to do it in various places.
But Less and less people were being vaccinated and smallpox just went away.
It just wasn't a thing anymore.
Nobody had to worry about smallpox anymore by the 1940s.
And so they did fine.
They were victorious.
They fought for freedom, they got it, and they did great.
They did great.
They didn't have to do this primitive procedure that should have gone the way of bleeding and mercury.
Well, good old Leicester.
I wonder how many... I doubt the tradition survives.
I'll bet as many people in Leicester got the jib-jab for Covid as anywhere else.
Yeah, unless you read about 1885 history, I doubt it.
That's the thing.
They keep these things from us.
They don't tell us about our real history.
Well, the victors write the history, right?
So they write it from their perspective.
And medical men, even by the 1930s and 40s, were still convinced that the smallpox vaccine saved them.
And that's the way they wrote things.
But if you dig in, you're like, well... And you understand that scratching yourself repeatedly and putting pus in your arm is probably not going to end well.
And, you know, they just pushed on.
And then they decided, well, we're going to come up with different vaccines for everything.
Yes.
And they succeeded.
Where are you on the Spanish flu?
Was that really a vaccine injury?
I don't know.
What's interesting is there was about five different big studies on trying to transmit the flu, the Spanish flu, and they coughed and sneezed on people.
They took sputum out of their whatever orifices and stuffed them into other people, which is really kind of gross.
So they did all these things.
They couldn't get anybody sick.
So, you know, and what's interesting is it was the people who got sick were in their twenties, basically young men and women, but not children and elderly, which would be typical of some kind of like flu.
Right.
And it also appeared all over the planet simultaneously at various places.
Uh, so what was it?
Uh, I'm not sure because some people have said it was all sorts of different things, including the use of aspirin.
In large doses could have been a problem.
Also, they were doing various vaccines everywhere, but I wasn't able to find any good real documentation of these experimental vaccines that supposedly might have been used in military sites all over the world.
So I don't really know.
I don't have any good evidence one way or another for me.
Yeah.
Other people have looked into the electrical grid system causing some kind of problem.
All sorts of things, but I really don't know what caused the big spike up.
Okay, well, I think the one we've got to really deal with, I mentioned it earlier, it's the polio thing.
Because that is the main reason now, I think, people say, yeah, but polio.
Polio was terrible.
Yeah, they say but smallpox and polio.
Once you understand smallpox, then you're like, wow, okay, wait a second, then what is real, right?
So tell us about polio.
Yeah, that's Suzanne's expertise, but polio was always a low-incident disease.
If you look at the incidence of diseases, it's like this little line at the bottom with a couple little bumps.
It wasn't like this big, big disease, but it was made big by the media at the time, right?
They showed people in iron lungs and things like that, and the odds that you get really, really sick were pretty small, actually.
But again, it's always, for a long time, it's always couches this particular virus or bacteria and then the person.
Nothing else matters, right?
So one of the big things they were doing is early 1900s, 1800s, they were spraying with arsenic, all the fruits and vegetables.
And arsenic is something that can cause paralysis.
So I think there's like multiple reasons people would get paralyzed potentially, right?
And what's interesting is it was considered the summer disease.
So people would, if you look at a chart, most people would get polio in the summer, but not so many in the winter.
And so a micro, you know, some kind of virus doesn't match that model.
And what they were doing then is they were spraying the crops with all these, you know, toxic materials.
So they had that and then later on DET.
So they had these different things that could cause paralysis.
That was kind of a well-known thing.
So it's, you know, but they, it's always latched onto this, this particular micro virus bacteria that's causing the problem.
But there's always other things that are involved.
And I think a lot of the paralysis was that.
I mean, again, and it's also a matter of definition.
So before there was a vaccine, if you had, um, I think it was, uh, 20, no, was it 20 per, 20 people within a block, it was called an epidemic, but then they changed it to like 35 after there was a vaccine.
So then of course epidemics would just kind of vanish.
So, you know, it's how you count things and how you label things.
So I don't think it was worth anything.
And if you look at the statistics from India, so in 1998, they changed the definition of what polio is, and you had to be within very, I think it was 1998, very stringent to be defined as polio.
You had to find a virus, you had to, et cetera, et cetera.
Otherwise, it was labeled as acute flaccid paralysis.
And so you have this break, but if you, if you take a flaccid paralysis and chart it and call it polio, then polio is still around.
It depends on how you define it.
So polio kind of went away in India, but if you, the original definition would include acute flaccid paralysis and you'll see it's actually higher than it used to be.
So it all depends on you, you change definitions.
But I think you mentioned in the book that India is one of the few major countries that still sprays DDT routinely.
Yeah, I don't know if they do right now, but they used to, yeah, sure.
So they do that.
So, you know, again, it's a simplistic model, which I think is, I actually read, it's very childish, actually, that you're just a human being, you encounter some kind of virus or bacteria, and that's the only thing that matters.
So we have to stop the bad bacteria and viruses.
And that's not real reality.
Human beings are much more complicated than that.
So you have all your nutritional statuses, you have if you're afraid, has a big factor in it, which is very interesting.
In 1888, Dr. Henry Littlejohn talked about how he was a sanitary inspector in these hospitals for 25 years.
He and his team were exposed to smallpox, tuberculosis, fever, scarlet fever, measles, whooping cough.
He and his staff never got sick.
And they never transmitted it to their family members over 25 years.
And he said, you have to be a person without fear to be a sanitary inspector, because if you have fear, you're going to get the very thing you're afraid of, which I thought was very interesting.
And there was comments by other doctors of the time that said, yeah, fear is a big factor.
And over the last A couple of years when everybody was terrified, I'm sure that had a big impact on mortality rate too.
But we always think about it, just this virus and you're sick and that's it.
But we don't think about the fear levels.
We don't think about your nutritional status, which our nutritional status is getting worse all the time, when it shouldn't be.
And then you're not thinking about the medical procedures that people are subjected to.
So you have all these different factors that are causing problems, but we always boil it down to just this microbe.
Which is very convenient because then you can have a solution.
You can have an antibiotic or you can have a vaccine and then you're protected from the outside when it's really mostly an inside job.
Yeah, you must have come across the research showing that the poliovirus has never been isolated.
In fact, I don't think any virus has ever been isolated in the laboratory.
So where are you on all that?
Uh, I kind of don't care.
It's an intellectual thing, and there's certain mysteries to me that don't explain that a virus doesn't exist, and there's a lot of things that show that maybe it doesn't, but I'm not really sure.
Right.
That's fair enough.
Yeah, but to me it doesn't matter because the death rate from all these diseases fell to basically zero before there was any kind of vaccine.
People get all hot and bothered about the whole topic.
I'm like, why does it matter so much to you?
Maybe they just don't know the data, but if the data shows that the death rate is near zero, then you don't have to worry about it.
Make sure that you're a healthy person.
That you're not afraid, that you get plenty of sunshine, fresh air, fresh water, good foods.
There's other things to worry about in the world that are much more important.
I mean, you're more likely to die of heart disease, cancer, or medical error.
Those are the top three.
So why is everybody freaking out about all these microbes?
Just let it go.
Yeah, sure.
No, I think certainly my audience are not interested about that.
Not interested in that as a kind of reason to find something to fear, but rather as a way of understanding the deception that has existed in the medical establishment over generations.
They tell us these stories, and it would be quite nice to get to the bottom of it.
Where are you on the COVID vaccine that was rolled out with indecent haste?
Do you think it was a Is it about population control, ultimately?
Population reduction?
Well, I can't say that.
Well, you can.
I would.
No, I say anything I want to say, but I always try to figure out what I really think, right?
There was a lot of diseases, just to kind of go back, in the 1600s, 1700s, that were considered infectious.
They were considered something that would be transmitted.
Scurvy was one of them.
Because their observations were you know you got on a boat and everybody got sick, you know must be spreading something Pellegra berry berry.
There's these are all considered carried by a virus virus You know, they didn't think of viruses this little Microbe that we think of today, but it was still something being transmitted right and And we eventually figured out this vitamin C and vitamin B1 and B3 deficiencies, right?
So but there was people that were adamant that it was some kind of virus and they were working.
If these other people hadn't determined it was, you know, nutrition, we probably have scurvy and pellagra and beriberi vaccines that we have to get to.
Oh, definitely!
They missed the trick there, didn't they? - Yeah, yeah.
Which, you know, that's what, you know, a lot of the, if you have, if you have adequate vitamin D levels, they found in various studies.
So if you're at the low end, which is very poor and the high end, like a, basically like a, somebody is out in the sun a lot, right?
So you have like between 10 and 50.
If you're a 50, your odds of getting a secondary infection in the hospital drops to like by 95%.
Uh, vitamin D is really key in the flu.
It cuts flu deaths by enormous amounts, but you know, we don't, that's not part of the medical paradigm.
We always worry about the microbe, right?
Um, uh, so, uh, you know, so when this COVID stuff broke out, I was going about my day, didn't really care.
I had other things to do in my life.
I thought it would blow over in a week or two, but it didn't.
It kept on going.
I didn't care.
It didn't bother me.
I noticed homeless people had been thrown out of shelters, so I was going out and helping them get some food and a little bit of support and comfort and stuff.
They didn't care.
Homeless people didn't care because they just wanted to get some food and they wanted some shelter.
They didn't care about this.
The ones I talked to, anyway, they didn't care at all.
So they didn't wear masks.
They didn't do any of this stuff.
And they were not very healthy.
None of them died, by the way.
So they somehow survived.
They should have been the first ones to die, but they were fine.
And I didn't die, at least not that I know of.
Where are you, Roman?
United States.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you surprised me.
I would have thought one of the first things they would do would be to go out and force vaccinate homeless people just because.
Well, that was, this is probably, I don't know, maybe they did, but this is before.
I don't think they did.
I don't think they did.
But this is before they had the vaccine.
Everyone was panicking.
I went for a ride to go see my sister during this because I'm not afraid of these things because I did my original research.
I was very fortunate.
I read that, wrote my own book on the whole topic.
So I went to drive to my sister's house and I looked around.
I'm like, Hey, there's nobody around.
There's nobody on the road.
I mean zero.
And I thought it was an apocalypse.
I guess it was.
I found out later they had shut down the whole state, but I didn't know, because I wasn't watching the media or I wasn't listening to anything.
I just went about my day, just ignored the whole thing.
I did get threatened a couple of times by people because they thought I didn't have a mask on, so one guy wanted to kill me, and another guy was screaming at me.
So I was like, calm down, you're going to give yourself a heart attack.
Yeah, it's very interesting how fear can ramp everybody up and then they become irrational.
You can't talk to them at all.
They just go insane.
But as far as the vaccine, what was it?
I don't know.
I'd let other people come and dig into that.
I do know, because I know somebody personally who got a dark field microscope, a scientist, and I know them personally, so...
They're completely honest and they looked and they showed me the pictures of these bizarre structures These like almost like Borg implants and it's really weird looking.
What are they?
I don't know But I think that these things are somehow self replicating structures or they Self-assemble into all sorts of different shapes.
This is not normal.
This is not something you want to put in your body.
What are they?
I have no idea but I know they're there because I Yeah, so there's something going on there.
Is it accidental or on purpose?
It seems hard to imagine as accidental, but I really don't know what the whole game is or what's going on with that.
If I did, I would say it, but I don't know.
Yeah, maybe it's all time we learned to make peace with our maker.
Well, I don't think it's... The smallpox vaccine killed lots and lots of people, but we're still here.
What is this whole thing doing?
I don't know.
I don't know if it's...
Oh it's not that Roman, I'm thinking more that the kind of people who orchestrated a fake pandemic and then made us all take these these jabs loaded with kind of self-replicating horror creatures from the future.
If they're capable of doing that through the medical system, allegedly, even though we know it's DoD really, They're capable of doing all kinds of stuff to us, you know, not just on the kind of jibby-jab level, but on the starvation level.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, medicine alone has been crazy from the beginning.
There's many doctors that notice that more people have died from medicine than war and famine.
They've always come up with crazy things.
Bleeding, I mean, that's a dumb idea.
Hot regimental is a dumb idea.
Does that never work?
Uh, no, they usually lead you to the point of fainting and bleed you and bleed you off and bleed you repeatedly.
So, uh, they're not taking out just a little bit of blood.
It's like insane amounts.
Um, hot regimen was a bad idea.
I mean, stuffing you into a hot room with no ventilation and No fresh water, bad idea.
Mercury was a bad idea.
Arsenic as a medication was a bad idea.
Strychnine was a bad medication idea.
They had all these toxic, toxic ideas.
In the 1800s, they decided women were crazy.
They were hysterical.
They would lock them up in prisons, you know, in insane asylums.
And by tens of thousands, you know, because women weren't behaving the way women were supposed to be behaving, so they decided they were hysterical and they would throw them in these insane asylums.
And then they decided, well, the reason they're hysterical is because of their wombs.
So they started, you know, mutilating women, taking out their wombs.
Oh yes, the hyster!
Yeah, so hysteria, they would perform hysterectomies.
That's where we get the term hysterectomies from.
And so, they not only imprisoned all these poor women, who, by the way, they tortured, They considered those as medical treatments.
They would put them in a hot bath and basically put them in a hot cabin and drip water on their heads.
Or there was one poor woman they kept in a box bed.
Now a box bed is basically a glorified coffin with bars around it.
And she was in that, I forget now how long it was, like 53 years naked that she lived her whole life out in her box bed.
No, that was 43 years.
You know, and box beds were a common way to, like, keep control over, you know, the hysterical women.
You'll notice it was the women that were crazy.
They didn't lock up too many men for being crazy, because who was doing the locking up?
The men, you know.
The medical men, you know, came up with this whole idea.
And they came up with this brilliant phrase, trust me, I'm a doctor.
Which everyone fell for.
It's worked.
It's so simple.
So there's all these crazy notions that frontal lobotomies would stick a thing up your nose and scramble your brains.
Yeah, I've had one of those.
Well, I can tell.
So it's a continuous stream of really dumb ideas.
Yeah.
And once they're done with one dumb idea, it just kind of fades away, and they come up with different dumb ideas.
I remember reading a paper on high-dose chemotherapy, and they decided to give one group super high-dose chemotherapy because, of course, more is better.
And the other ones, they didn't.
They just gave regular-dose chemotherapy.
In the end, the people who got the high-dose did worse, but their cancer outcome was the same.
And I remember the guy writing, or the author's writing, well, you know, maybe we should really kind of have a better idea if it's going to work before we subject so many people to this.
So at least he was being honest, or I think it was probably he.
It's like, you know, it's one giant experiment.
Everything's an experiment.
It's like, let's try this.
Let's see if it works.
And if it doesn't work, we'll do it anyway.
There's so much of this that goes on Vioxx.
How many people got killed by Vioxx or thalidomide?
How many people were deformed?
And they still use that medication, by the way, and they repurposed it for something else.
That's what I heard.
I don't really know the details, but you know, it's just one giant experiment after another.
And I forget which doctor mentioned that.
He said, you know, Medical men get to do whatever they want as long as they have a diploma from some place that's legitimate.
And no matter how devastating the procedure is, as long as they have a diploma, you're good to go.
And we still have that.
So it doesn't matter, not that there's not good doctors out there, but you can pretty much do anything you want as long as you follow the rulebook.
And I think that we've, for centuries, we've gone off the rails, and health is basically in your hands.
You can handle most things yourself.
And I have a couple stories for that.
A couple months ago, I was cleaning out the gutters, and I had cut my hand repeatedly trying to get under the gutter guard, and I was bleeding, and I didn't think much of it.
I was cleaning out all the leaves, In there was probably bird poop and squirrel poop and all sorts of stuff and fungus and bacteria.
I just didn't think of it.
And five days later, which was stupid of me by the way, I was shaking and I had a fever and I had body pains and I had swelling and all over my body.
And I started some vitamin D and zinc and things like that, but I was still pretty sick.
And my wife, who's quite brilliant, she goes, oh, she could see the lines going up my hands.
Oh, you got sepsis?
Sepsis, yeah.
I said, oh, really?
Okay.
And I'm not one to panic or anything.
And I was like, I'm not going to call the emergency services because then I'll be in the medical system.
I don't want to do that.
Yeah.
And so she goes, don't worry.
I got it handled.
I said, okay.
So she gave me some, uh, golden seal and which exact herbs.
Cause she's, she, she knows all about that kind of stuff.
She gave me some drop doses of this stuff.
12 hours later, I was doing pretty good.
24 hours later, I was fine.
Wow, you see, I want to study these things, these natural remedies.
Oh yeah, so plant medicines are amazing.
So I'm not telling anybody to go out and go buy a bottle of echinacea if you have sepsis.
I'm not telling anybody to do that, but this is what I did.
But it works!
Well, you have to know what you're doing.
You can't just go, you know, gunslinger it, you know, so you have to know what you're doing.
So if you want to study it and understand how to do it, you have to kind of, you know, you really should know what you're doing.
So don't just go wing it.
You know, I'll just take three doses of echinacea and I'm done, you know, because it was, it was good quality stuff.
Goldenseal and echinacea and a couple other things.
I forget.
And she gave me some homeopathic quackery too.
So I call it quackery.
So, you know, it worked.
I was good in 24 hours.
And what was the other one?
I thought you said there were two.
Yeah, there was another story.
I forgot what it was off the top of my head.
But you didn't go for mainstream medicine and you didn't die?
No, I'm done with that.
I don't pay any attention to that.
No, I'm with you there, but that is quite interesting, Roman.
I mean, there was a big campaign about sepsis launched by...
This public figure, you know, it's always public figures doing this stuff, pushing various agenda, and this was about sepsis, look for the signs of sepsis, and it was made out to be this thing that only, only a hospital could deal with, and they really need to be on it, and here you are, you've got the tracking lines going up your veins, you know, creeping up to kill you, and in comes wifey, With some golden seal and a few other things.
She said so nonchalantly.
Oh, you've got sepsis.
Oh, OK, I can figure that.
That's no problem.
I know what it is now.
Your wife sounds a very, very splendid woman.
You're a lucky man.
She's an amazing person.
Yeah, she's really great.
There was another story.
Something else happened, but I can't remember what it was.
Anyway.
Did it involve a rattlesnake or a shark?
Otherwise, I'm not interested.
It was a rattleshark.
Yeah, it was pretty dangerous.
Yeah, so it's down on my list of things.
So there's, you know, there's sunshine, there's fresh water, good food, not being afraid, not being angry, you know, meditation, all these things are kind of like in a Priority list for me near the bottom is plant based medicines.
If you actually have a problem, you have to know what you're doing.
And at the very end is the Western medicine.
So you only use that if you're really, really, really, really, really have to like apparently not in sepsis, but, um, but if you, if you have a car accident, Western medicine, great.
You know, the certain things they do great, uh, keeping you healthy.
That's a different story.
I don't think they're very good at that at all.
Because they should be focusing on your personal health, you know, how to teach you to eat right, exercise, fresh water, you know, relax, meditate, you know, put things in perspective.
But it's always about, you know, oh, here's a medication to lower your cholesterol, or here's a procedure you need to do.
Most of the time, you don't need to do any of that stuff.
You need to refocus on yourself and your community.
Which is outside the book, but that's where I've come to after reading all this history.
which is outside the book, but that's where I've come to after reading all this history.
Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Humphries, who again, gave up her career as a nephrologist.
She's still a nephrologist, but she doesn't practice that anymore.
But she gave up her high six-figure career and said, no, I'm about the truth.
You know, getting to the answer.
And she gave up all that stuff and has gotten death threats and, you know, all sorts of horrible stuff.
But she's really a remarkable woman to hold fast to her principles, which I don't think happens very often.
So I was very fortunate that I ran across her when I was working on the book.
It was a very interesting story.
I was listening to this Gary Newell program, and after I started writing these proto-chapters, I was like, I better get a doctor on board, because I think that will give me a lot of legitimacy.
I have to find a doctor, but I'll find one.
I know I will.
And then this lady starts talking about smallpox on the radio, and I'm listening to her.
I was like, oh, that's my co-author.
And this is Dr. Suzanne Humphries.
So I called her like three times, and then she finally returned my call.
And said, well, uh, I'm, I'm working on this book.
And, uh, she says, okay, well, why don't you come up to Maine, which is about five hours North.
And I, I went with my wife at the time, uh, up there and we had a nice time and she read some of my stuff and she joined.
So thank goodness.
Cause she's, she's great.
So that's a little story there.
Uh, in any band, they're all being burned right now.
Just go to the website because you can get it.
It used to be just Amazon, but now it's on Amazon.
It's on IngramSpark.
We have a local publisher because some people don't like Amazon.
I don't know why they don't like Amazon.
We have a local publisher called GHP, so you can get it from there.
So there's different places you can get it.
I'm working on the audio version now, so hopefully they'll be done with that sometime this century.
So you'll be able to get that there.
We don't have the Kindle ready either, so it's only hard copies.
But you go there, that's the best way to find it because you might be able to get Well, we have the 10th anniversary, so those are with the updated things and there's like an extra 150-200 pages.
There's also a companion that I came up with that is another 500 page book that has doctor's quotes from the It's not a reading book, but it's a good reference.
It's a great reference book.
and medicine in general, vaccine tragedies, a lot of horrible stories where we read them like, wow, you know, all these vaccine tragedies, there's a timeline in there.
There's a whole bunch of stuff in there.
It's not a reading book, but it's a good reference.
It's a great reference book.
I think it's a great reference book.
So we have those two new books and we have the older version too.
That one's just on Amazon, I think, and some other places too, that resells books too.
So if you go to the bottom of the web page, you can pick which book you want, what language you want.
Currently, the Tenth Anniversary is only in English, but it's being translated into something, hopefully.
I think... I forget which ones it's being translated to already.
The other books which translate into seven different languages.
So you can pick Which book you want, what language, and then you get a list of where you can get it.
So that's probably the best way to do it.
Or you can just go to Amazon, or you can go... I always just go to the website.
