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Dec. 24, 2020 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole
01:15:15
Dr Antony P. Mueller
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Welcome to the DelicPod with me, James DelicPod.
And I know I always say I'm excited about this with special guests, but I really am.
It's Dr. Anthony Muller.
And Anthony, you're in Brazil.
Yes.
We've just established northern Brazil, is that right?
Yes.
Northeast.
Northeast.
And so what's it like there?
Is it kind of beaches or is it rainforest or what?
I've never been to Brazil.
Okay.
Well, first, thank you for having me on.
It's a great pleasure to be on your show.
And as I mentioned, I live in Brazil.
So in Brazil, we basically have the southern part, which in fact is pretty European in many respects.
Also, ethnically, it is a huge Italian immigration, German immigration, And so on.
And then you have the northeast, which is the old Brazil.
That was the Brazil where it was first established as the Portuguese.
And later on, for a short time, a Dutch colony.
So you also have a strong Dutch influence there.
And what most people have in mind when they think about Brazil is the north, the northern part of Brazil, which is a gigantic area known as Amazonia.
And this rainforest.
Where I live, it is, if you want to think about, well, Florida, a kind of Florida here where I live.
I live on the beach and there are skyscrapers, high houses and beaches and all very modern and shopping centers and so on.
Now, let's say when you go into the interior, Let's say, from the coastline, 10 miles into the middle of the country.
It reminds me of Texas, so you get some idea.
It's a kind of Texas down there.
Then, yes, it's called Sertau, it is called.
So, I like to live it here.
I'm pretty glad.
Here at the coastline, the temperature in centigrade hardly is more than 30.
Rarely is more than 30 degrees.
Yeah, it's usually below 30.
So it's sort of balmy, like almost Californian in a way.
Sleep without air conditioning, for example.
Right.
You've frozen again.
I'm hoping that this line isn't going to keep freezing.
It's probably my fault.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm just going to shut down all my different things in case the internet... So we're going to talk today mainly about the Great Reset.
But, oh, you're frozen again.
I wonder why it's doing that. - It's probably my internet, isn't it?
Hang on.
I can't imagine.
Yeah.
Oh, anyway, let's carry on.
Let's carry on.
It could be, of course, the World Economic Forum trying to sabotage our interview.
So, before I ask you about the Great Reset, I just wanted to ask you, because you live in Brazil, and as you know, Most of the world has gone completely mad over coronavirus, whereas President Bolsonaro in Brazil has taken a very different response.
I mean, what's been your experience of this supposed pandemic in Brazil?
Well, you're right.
The president himself was not too enthusiastic to follow the global trend of lockdowns.
But similar to the situation that you have in the United States, health concerns are local, so the governors and even the mayors of cities have a priority in making health decisions.
So you had an interesting division.
Those states and municipalities that were more against Bolsonaro, they had implied a stronger lockdown, And there are several states that did not do almost anything, only some kind of general cautionary measures like putting on a mask, but not a brutal lockdown.
And as I could note here, Well, we have an obligation to wear masks, but it is not very much enforced.
Yes, that's a typical Brazilian way.
The country's just too big, too heterogeneous, too confused in certain ways.
So this going through like you, let's say you can do it in Britain or in Germany, it's absolutely impossible.
Yes, you have this always with this mega state, although you have an anarchistic tendency in the country.
Yes.
So I take my mask with me.
And I walk around without mask and once in a time I put it up and only one time somebody said, don't you wear a mask?
That was all.
Well, I hear from Europe that whenever you show up without a mask, you are persecuted.
Yes.
Yes, that is more or less it.
I mean, some of us, To not wear a mask is to be making a statement, certainly.
It's like a gesture of defiance to the authorities.
It's like being a member of the resistance.
Before we move on to the Great Reset, Dr Muller, I want to put you in context.
Tell me a bit about yourself.
I know you're a professor.
You're a doctor.
I mean, as in a PhD.
Tell me how you came to be living in Brazil and what your field of expertise is and how you became interested in the Great Reset, in that order.
Well, okay.
Well, I grew up in Germany and I did my studies there.
I also had short stays in Britain, study stays in England.
and Spain and were also picked up some Spanish at that time and I took my PhD and I became assistant professor and you have to do this second degree in Germany to become a full professor.
It's called habilitation and after that I was a Fulbright scholar in the United States and was an associate professor and then I came back and It was some kind of feeling.
Well, I know all of Europe.
Actually, I knew all of Europe with many travels from Northern Ireland to Turkey or from Portugal to Finland and so on.
Many stays, also short visits in Paris.
I had a stay in Paris for a year.
And I knew very much America, the United States.
Well, I was in my office and my colleague showed up and said, here's something for you.
If you don't do that, you will stay there forever at this place here.
And it was a visiting professorship in Brazil, which I applied for.
And this was in Florianopolis in the south.
And it was on an island.
The university is on an island and I grew up in Germany.
The sea was very far and it's cold.
The water is cold in northern Germany.
I read about they have 40 beaches there and so I got there and I had some interruption during my first day.
I went on to visit the United States and I had a stay in Guatemala at the University of Francisco Marroquin, that was very nice, a longer stay there.
So I came back and I just did not want to go back to Europe.
I just, and the United States also, I felt quite well.
So I looked around and interestingly enough, I found a position here Beyond where I was a visiting professor, as a full professor in the in the federal university.
So actually, as an anarchist, so to speak, from my philosophy, I am a state employee, a federal state employee.
Yes, I'm official.
Yes.
And each state has at least one federal university here in Brazil.
And these are usually the well-funded And very good places to have also room to study and to do research.
And my area in Basque back then from the beginning has been Macroeconomics, Austrian economics, monetary economics, international economics.
I did some study about international debt and so on.
And when I came to Brazil, I concentrated even more on Austrian economics and I built strong relationships with the Mises Institute of Brazil.
was instrumental in setting up a Mises Institute in Brazil.
I want to say in the United States and in Brazil also.
So we have an institution which is very strong, which does a lot of work here.
And so I feel somewhat I've found my mission in life, so to speak, and I can combine many interests.
And, well, I was not so much interested in the World Economic Forum.
I've heard about it.
I knew about it.
And, of course, when the first reactions came, To the pronouncement of the pandemic, I said to myself, this is impossible what they're doing.
This is outright crazy.
It is so out of proportion that, and of course we were at that time, at these first months, here also in a kind of quarantine.
Quarantine.
And so I had more time than usual and I began to investigate and said, OK, I found the wasp nest, so to speak.
There is something really terrible going on.
And I was With each more of my investigation I was more surprised of what I had missed up to now because it's really a big thing and it explains a lot of these otherwise hard to explain things that are going on right now.
Yes, I think you're absolutely right.
I've been aware for a very long time of Davos.
You know, you see the planes, the private jets landing and you see the president's helicopter flying over and you see the limousines and you hear stories and you think, well, this is just very, very rich people having a kind of holiday in the Alps.
And that's how it seemed for many, many years.
I mean, you think that Klaus Schwab Founded the World Economic Forum and I think the early 70s.
So this thing has been going on for a long time.
Yes, like you I Only really became aware of the World Economic Forum as a menace as opposed to this just kind of comical thing almost this year and I think a lot of people are in our position that they're they're coming to terms, but they're looking around them and they're thinking I
How do you explain this massive concerted government overreaction across the world, almost like the countries are acting in lockstep?
How do you explain it?
And so, tell me, how did you decide that it was the World Economic Forum and the Great Reset that was responsible for this?
Because, I mean, even now, I find it hard to believe that this kind of sinister master plan, like something out of a movie, could actually be happening to us now.
Well, I mean, I fully agree with you that the point to take into consideration is the lockstep, as you said.
That's exactly the point.
I mean, if just one government, let's say Germany, do it in an overreaction you can come up with the whole history stuff and psychology and well these crazy Germans they overreact and so on and you could explain anything yes by literature and philosophy and history and so on and and well and and And as we know, maybe right now in Britain it's even worse.
So this thing does not hold to put some blame on the individual nations.
It is a command, a command given from above.
Now, where is this above?
And you have Actually, the World Health Organization, as part of the United Nations, that that is.
And this is an interesting thing now, because the World Health Organization is half official, half private.
So you have a strange connection of major interest Let's call him the Microsoft founder, on the one hand, who has a strong hand in the whole thing, the whole pharmaceutical industry, which is linked to it, some kind of research projects and research institutions.
And let's not forget in this medical area, there is huge money involved.
I mean, these are sums that are unimaginable for, let's say, an ordinary professor at a university and those that has big money involved if you get a certain research grant and so on.
And now you go back into the documents and it's not a conspiracy in the traditional sense that's going on because it's all published, it's all open.
You find the document, you find the talks, if you require a little bit more you find many details who participated and so on.
So it is quite open and there were agreements made years ago that when the World Health Organization pronounces a pandemic, yes, certain measures are triggered in the countries that form and sign this agreement.
Now, what had happened in the meantime, and this is the sinister part, without much ado, without much publication, a year or so ago, this World Health Organization had simply changed the definition of a pandemic.
Before it was combined with large effects on the health, in the sense that you really have a lot of people who die from a pandemic.
Now it is just a pandemic.
It can be just a virus that spreads, even when the effect on the grave effects on the health of the people are minimal.
And this is the crazy thing.
And even it gets crazy when you think only a couple of months ago there was a simulation going on.
What will happen in the world when there is such a pandemic?
And it looks like it looks as if they made really a real simulation a couple of months later.
And then crazy documents appear and they all are authentic.
So it was leaked.
The German interior minister published It had an internal paper that was published after that, where the government said, we must create a panic, we must create fear.
I mean, just think about if it were a real pandemic, if really the nation, the life of millions of people were under threat, The government would do the opposite.
It would say, well, stay calm.
We will manage it.
Don't panic.
It is not so worse as it seems.
Yes, but you have this propaganda mechanism going on all over.
All over.
And, I mean, you just have to turn on TV, you have to look at the major newspaper.
It is a gigantic propaganda apparatus that has been started.
And this is scary.
Indeed, it is unexplainable.
In this respect.
Yes, yes.
I remember seeing the leaked documents from Germany, where they deliberately...
Government ministers were advised to dwell on just how horrible a death it was, and to dwell on the gory details as much as possible.
And as you say, they would not be doing this.
If people were dropping dead in the streets, that would be...
More than less than enough for the people that this was a problem, but they seem to be manufacturing this problem.
And we have our own SAGE committee and the government SAGE committee has a quite a large number of behavioral psychologists on it.
Now, what are they doing there?
It seems to me that their job is to is to use trickery to ramp up the hysteria and creating the idea of the public that this sort of willingness to Choose to submit to whatever the government imposes on them.
I mean, we're seeing this now.
People are people.
A significant chunk of the population seems to be clamouring for more lockdowns.
So we've analyzed what's what's going on.
But here's the thing that really puzzles me.
I don't whether you can explain this.
We all think of our of our governments as being these sovereign entities responsible to the voters, responsible to the people they supposedly serve.
But in every case, they seem to be ignoring the interests of the people and seem to be acting on orders from on high.
But but how does this come about?
I mean, you know, I think of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove in my own country.
Why would these people who presumably went into politics to to help help their people and be good, good ministers, good governors?
Why are they suddenly taking orders which are going to be a involve lying to the public and be involved downing the economy?
Why do they do that?
Well, this is a very hard and sensible question to answer, but actually a good case is Boris Johnson.
You may remember when the whole thing started, he proposed a so-called herd immunity.
He had this idea, well, let's not do too much, we do not want to destroy our economy, and we will risk a certain effect, a negative effect, but in the long run it was a trade-off to do, and almost overnight, and as you said, as if he had received the command,
He changed the attitude and went over to a brutal lockdown.
Yes.
Now, one can only speculate what's behind that.
And you have similar situations in Germany, for example, you have the following, just to give another example, because Germany is more federal than Britain, for example.
Now, you have these, and we call them the The state king, so to speak.
Each governor of a state feels like a very important person in Germany, especially in Bavaria.
So, you notice once in a while that these dukes of these individual states want to do a different kind of policy.
And they reunite in a meeting under the chancellorship of Angela Merkel.
And when they get out of the meeting, they are all for a harsh lockdown.
They go into the meeting and say, well, I'm not really in favor, I think we have to be more liberal and it's terrible for our industry, it's terrible for our Mittelstand, this part of Germany, of the German economy, which is very important, the medium-sized companies.
They move into these meetings and they all seem pretty rational and conscientious to do a trade-off about the things, the risks.
Of this and that.
And this has happened several times, because there were several meetings about that in the meantime.
And they come out in unisono, yes, doing what the Chancellor had announced, strict, tough, yes, lockdown.
And it was so crazy, the last one was announced, officially announced, and this is the name, Lockdown Light, they used English, Lockdown Light.
And overnight it has been a lockdown strict.
It has been one of the most terrible lockdowns that has begun right now for Christmas time.
So this is crazy.
So what is it, do you think, in these meetings?
What does Angela Merkel say to them?
What did they say to Boris Johnson?
I mean, what kind of threat Or blackmail or bribery?
Can these... Well, I mean, I can't help but call them shadowy forces because they seem to have no... I mean, the World Health Organization, okay.
But, I mean, to make people act against their own rational interests and act against the interests of their country, to actively... I mean, we'll get on to this in a minute, to actively destroy small businesses, to actually crash the economy, What kind of thing would you have to say to somebody to make them do that?
Well, it's absolutely irrational.
In one of my earlier texts to The Problem, I wrote that the best way to fight a pandemic is to have a strong economy, is to have sound people who go out, who strengthen their immune system.
And not to make them fearful and destroy the economy, people lose their jobs.
I mean, this exposes the individual to the virus, whatever it is, much more than when you think, okay, things are going on, we are tough, we are strong.
Like, well, let's call for Churchill.
How did he react?
to the danger of an invasion.
He made the English powerful.
He did not say, go back into your homes, hide away with the viruses coming and so on.
This is absolutely crazy how they reacted.
Insane, you can say.
And of course, one must presume now, even when we think that Donald Trump was in the beginning not so enthusiastic about a lockdown, but he could not pull through his idea.
The mass media were an instrumental part.
Now, who is behind the mass media?
That is maybe an interesting question.
We have the situation that in all of these countries, the three, four main media outlets, the BBC in Britain and major newspapers, yes, and in the United States, the CNN, yes, they have become a gigantic propaganda machine.
And now just imagine the few voices that were critical of these measures, which showed up as YouTube contributions or Twitter statements were put away, were put under censorship.
I mean, YouTube cancelled thousands and thousands of Simply critical statements where there were interviews with recognized experts, recognized professors.
Yes.
And they suddenly disappeared.
Yes.
And Twitter, you could not say.
And of course, it has already made a kind of self-censorship.
You do not want to risk your channel.
Yes.
And you do not want to risk your Twitter account.
So you have actually a new kind of global terror regime that is in work, that is in place.
And it's a strange combination.
We are used to think of governments as the main force of dictatorship.
That's what we always have in mind.
Yes, but here we have something new, which comes first of all from an agency, which is not Private and not public.
It's a public-private agency, the World Health Organization, which is so powerful in its statement.
So, at first, when I wrote something against it, I received mails, how can you write against an official agency?
And they did not even know that it is half private.
Most of the money comes from foundations and the vaccine industry, vaccination industry and so on.
And of course you have the mass media which plays an interesting part and they have eliminated all kinds of critical journalists and you have also a kind of support
in the, well, let's put it, undermined academic world, which over the past couple of decades has become greenish, leftist, gender-oriented, some kind of strange philosophies where all common sense is left behind.
Yes, so you have a cultural thing also behind what is going on, which makes it so terrible.
I mean, it has, well, if I could bring it to a point, which certainly will provoke critique, but it has a religious aspect.
Yes?
Like in history, when we study history, suddenly a religious movement came over and transformed the people in one way or the other.
And, of course, now you are a heretic, you are irreligious if you don't follow the standards that are now in place, this new kind of ethical thing, which is an adoration of Mother Earth, yes?
So to speak, a return to ancient cults, yes, where you adore Mother Nature, yes.
And so it has something of these elements in it which explains a lot why these measures go.
So you have always this kind of interaction in all of history of kind of institution But these institutions, be it the papacy or anything else, yes, they are only effective when they also have this cultural aspect to it.
And now this World Health Organization is one element, but in itself it would not work.
It also maybe only triggered a kind of fanaticism, yes, in the world.
And the world was right for you.
That's the phrase I was looking for.
Yes, they've laid the groundwork for this over a period of decades.
And the fact that it's accelerating now, that makes us think it's a very sudden thing.
But actually it's not.
This has been the fact that there are very few academics.
I mean, you'd be very much an exception.
No academics to really critique this stuff intelligently because they're all on board with the program and right science again I mean I I know about this because I've been studying the green movement for for over a decade and I know how they how they operate and it's it's really not about saving It's not about conservation, it's not about doing the right thing by nature, often it's against nature.
But that is the claim they make, that this political action is necessary in order to save the world, if you like, when in fact they're actually shackling the world and enslaving the people.
But what, there's the great reset, isn't there?
The World Economic Forum.
There's also Agenda 2030, which I think is very, very similar.
What is the ultimate aim of these political ideologies?
What are they trying to achieve?
Well, from a personal perspective, I still remember in the 80s, yes, you had basically three groups of people, yes, or four groups.
One kind, let's say my generation when they were in the productive area, Okay, they wanted to make money, they wanted to go into industry, they wanted to go into finance, make money.
There was this other group that wanted to go into studying, research and so on.
Yes, and you had another group that wanted to make fun and celebrate and hedonistic lifestyle.
And you had a fourth group.
And this fourth group, we laughed at them a little bit.
These were this green, yes, anti work anti-hedonistic, ascetic people almost, yes, that reduced already back then their lifestyle, they had this ecological aspect.
Yes, I remember when I still had contacts to them, so you came to the party, I mean, The women were horribly dressed and so on.
It was a religious movement, yes.
It is like this in the history, these beggar orders, yes, in the Catholic Church.
Yes, or have you seen Game of Thrones?
Yeah, no, I didn't know.
The Sparrows.
But it's an old history, yes, and this almost reminded me of that.
Now while, let's say, some people studied and worked and published and did their research and the other had their fun and they went on going to golf clubs and so on and having their wine fests and the others were working like crazy to make a lot of money, this group went into politics.
They occupied, step by step, all kinds of important positions.
Last but not least, the main media, BBC, the German television, they all moved into these areas.
And in the meantime, this media could make the propaganda apparatus, the ecological propaganda, which lifted now these people, This group into important political positions.
Now when you, I don't know how it is exactly, the British system is a little bit different, but in Germany it's more proportional.
So you look around, the Greens and the Leftists are now everywhere.
They're in city councils, they're burgermeisters, They're in the parliaments.
Now they even talk that one of the green young ladies, they are relatively young often, yes, she wants to be chancellor.
And so they have the power.
And something else, which is interesting for maybe your listeners to know.
In Germany you also have another aspect.
Yes, you know there was the reunification in 1990.
So, at that time, you had a group of people who were unable to integrate themselves in the, let's call them the capitalist work ethics, and many of these went into politics.
So they changed their name, they changed the... Merkel, Angela Merkel, the Chancellor, is an example.
She came from the communist youth organization, but changed into the Christian Democratic Union took on a new clad, but just to hide her very red heart, so to speak.
And now she's chancellor.
And so you have many of these people you have in the Berlin Senate.
It's full of people who worked for the Stasi in earlier times or are linked to that.
So it's a horrible situation, which also explains a lot of what is going on.
Yes, we call them watermelons.
Green on the outside, red on the inside.
Yes.
But also, interestingly, a friend of mine, Benny Peiser, who is German, who was a member of the German Green Party in the 1970s and was quite an activist.
He's since come over to our side.
But he tells me that a lot of Nazis, former Nazis, joined the Green Movement in the 19th century.
A lot of them were ex-Nazis, joined the Green Movement because they saw it as a kind of way of getting their ideology across under the cover of environmentalism.
So I totally hear what you say.
So I can see, yeah, this has been entryism, isn't it?
This is of a piece with Gramsci, And the march through the institutions, that they've been captured by people with the ideology and the appetite to sit on these board and committee meetings and to kind of make rules while everyone else is, as you say, making money or enjoying themselves.
These people have the will to capture every institution.
So I sort of get that.
What's in it for people like, all the people who go to the World Economic Forum, Klaus Schwab, the connection with technocracy, that ideology.
Tell me how that fits in and how does it fit into other totalitarian ideologies like Marxism or Nazism, whatever.
Is it of a piece with those?
Well, there has always been a technocratic movement.
Historically, one could even go back to Plato and his idea of an ideal state, or throughout history there were many authors who set up a plan for a utopian society, and these utopian society or throughout history there were many authors who set up a
And these utopian societies were always expertocracies, so to speak, and they were a group of enlightened people, of illuminati, if you want to say so, yes, that ruled the wise men, the philosophers in Plato's term. that ruled the wise men, the philosophers in Plato's term.
Now, the wise men nowadays are the experts, they are the people, at the major companies, the producer of iPhones and computers and vaccines and so on.
And this is a long tradition and particularly when you begin to research That movement, you had this European strain, with this utopian, with this socialism stuff, Marxism, yes, and you had the French utopian socialists, and you had the German visionaries, you had in Britain the Fabian society, yeah, which fits in quite well.
Now, in the United States, this strand is Expertocracy.
And it goes back to the late 19th century where ideas emerged.
This democracy is not really the right stuff for our country.
Yes, we must do have, we must have a, yes, a More expert view, more expert organization.
And when you look at this American history, there has always been in the educational system this kind of producing the right American.
Yes, the great American, the functioning American, the consensual American has always been in place.
And people close to Woodrow Wilson, particularly before and during the First World War, were very instrumental to setting up a world government.
At that time it was called the League of Nations, which did not work out, but the United Nations is the successor.
Now, what is the United Nations?
Let's reflect a little bit.
Experts!
It's a rule of experts, yes?
I mean, when I was young, and I studied, and you thought about, what will I do?
Will I go into industry?
Will I continue in academics?
It's the third, maybe the first you wanted to do.
Ah, I get a job at the IMF as an economist.
I get a job at the World Bank.
Yes, these were the big things and I could observe that.
So professors went into politics and then economic professors.
And after a while they were some kind of, they are not the right person, they were moved away and got top position in the United Nations.
Yes, with all this ancient UNESCO, yeah, and all this World Bank stuff.
Yeah, I mean, I know people who work in the World Bank.
Yeah, traveling first class, always welcome all around the world.
It's a top life.
It's a magic life, huge pensions and so on.
And then came as a second part.
Yes.
Also in my youth.
Yes.
In the 70s, when you thought about it.
Yes.
Very attractive point for all economic students, political science students, language students.
The European Union.
Getting a job at the European Union.
A pure expertocracy.
The European Union is pure.
It's the establishment of expertocracy.
So you have the United Nations, you have the IMF, the sister organizations and related to the IMF.
Yes.
And so and at the further column, so to speak, of course, is the other thing.
Yes.
So let's say World Bank.
Yeah.
IMF.
United Nations, European Union, central banking, central banking.
Yes, you can get super jobs at central banking.
So these are the testicles, so to speak, that absorb all intellectual power into them, themselves, as experts, as experts.
Yeah, we have, we live in an expertocracy.
We live in an expertocracy.
Now the problem with an expertocracy, and this is something well known by the French utopian socialists, Fourier, and particularly also Auguste Comte, yes, he said, well, we now enter, and they called it the scientific age, the scientific age.
The age of experts.
Something is lacking.
Something is lacking.
We need an emotional aspect to that.
We need a modern religion.
Yes, this can of course not be a religion as of the past, a transcendental religion, an otherworldly religion.
It must be focused.
And they looked around.
There were many ideas.
The communism was a kind of new religion, but it did not work out.
But the ideal religion that was finally found is the green ideology.
Back to Mother Earth, honor Mother Earth, and so on.
Yes, and so you have now this kind of ideal combination, like the climate research is fully scientific, expertocracy, and then you have climate.
You have this saving the planet, saving the animals.
Yes, and this has become a new kind of mixture.
And of course, it is something that one will only see when it's already there.
It is hard to foresee, like all these events are hard to foresee.
And even when they happen, they are very hard to detect and only in retrospect.
And it took me a lot of work to find this kind of idea how how one can understand that what is going on, these heterogeneous elements.
Yes, yes.
Now, I think one of the reasons that I mean, I'm about the only journalist in the one of very few journalists in the UK who is paying any attention to this.
Everyone else thinks I'm a kind of crank or I'm a I'm a conspiracy theorist.
And you must have you must have been called a conspiracy theorist in your time as well.
It's the way of closing down our line of inquiry, isn't it?
Well, as to conspiracy, first the point is that it is not a conspiracy when you define conspiracy as something hidden.
Yes, that is the original meaning of conspiracy, a group of sinister people who plan something in the obscurity and want to make their plan a reality.
In this case, it's all open.
As I said before, the documents are here.
They are being discussed.
So it is, in this sense, not a conspiracy.
On the other hand, I like to quote quite well U. Rothbard, Austrian economist Marie Rothbard, who said, conspiracy?
Everything's a conspiracy.
Everything.
In each company, in each university, in each party, you have a small group of the doers who manage things.
And of course it's right.
The Catholic Church is a conspiracy.
The Fabian Society is a conspiracy.
Yes, and of course, the people behind the World Health Organization are also a conspiracy.
So in this sense, it is double-faced.
It is double-faced, which of course makes it interesting because you can say both things.
And yes, we are not a conspiracy because all documents are there.
We are very open.
You can see the picture.
Yes, you have these pictures where you see Fauci, Bill Gates and the German Chancellor and another important woman, yes, on a table and discussing, okay, yes, we show, yes, but what are they doing?
How does this fit?
Fauci, Bill Gates, German Chancellor and another lady who is Prime Minister in some Northern European country, yes.
Where is the legitimacy behind that?
I mean, if she's together with Donald Trump, it's something else.
So, it has both elements in that.
One must recognize that it is open, like all movements are open.
After a while they have to go public.
Yes, and the religious movement, all religious movements, it's interesting enough, if you compare that, all religious movements have their documents.
They have their various Catechisms, Bibles, promulgations and so on.
Because with these written stuff, they put also the people further around into the movement.
If it were only a conspiracy of a few people, they would have no power.
The conspiracy or the power works when you publish the things, when you attract people.
It's like each party, as we know, publishes the document of the reunions, of the party congress and so on.
But the point is only a few hundred can attend the party congress, but how to attract all these millions.
So you have to publish, you have to make propaganda, and it's the outer stuff always integrated, and this is also here the case.
And most of the time, most of the people very outside do not care.
I, for example, am not so much interested in individual party politics.
I think I have never read a party program.
Other, when I was very young, then there was some discussion about socialism, what are socialist plans.
But each party has a party program.
Hardly anybody outside reads it.
Other, who are members of, yes, the movement.
Yes, and they are held together by these publications.
Yes, yes, I see that.
Now, you're an Austrian economist.
I share your Like you, I believe in free markets.
I believe that the fairest, most efficient way of allocating scarce resources is the market, because only the market has more or less complete knowledge.
Governments can't decide how to allocate resources better than the markets can, because they don't have sufficient information.
So we accept that, and we know that historically, It has been proven that we look at the evidence of history that this is this is the best way this is how things work and that attempts to top down economies like command economies like the Soviet Union.
They're doomed to doom to failure.
So given all this why is it that?
And this is the argument I often have with people who want to deny the existence of the Great Reset.
They say to me things like, how is it in the interests of Bill Gates and, you know, whoever, to crash the world economy, to destroy small businesses?
Because this is part of the plan, isn't it?
They want to crash the world economy, wipe out small businesses.
It's going to shrink the global economy.
It's going to make people poorer.
Why would wealth creators or people who've benefited from wealth creation in the past, why would they do this?
Well, I think there are two lines to that.
On the one hand, there are people who love To have power.
I mean, you know these relatively ascetic leaders who by themselves lived relatively modest in their personal circumstances, although they could afford many, many luxuries, and they were only obsessed by usually one idea, one major idea, and they loved power.
Well, the main representatives could be persons like Stalin and so on.
Even Lenin was a kind of person who was not very into luxuries, different from later followers.
Yes, so you have these people who want power.
Now, when you have a lot of money, and that also works with people who have, well, A lot of money, but not such money as Bill Gates.
Even with them, you often feel they feel unsatisfied after a while with their money.
Because the option is actually living a life of luxury, which is combined with certain boredom.
So I've noticed, I receive letters, for example, from fairly rich people who want to participate in academic work.
Yes, so they feel they are 50, 60, they have a lot of money and they are interested now in something academic or some contribution to the philosophy of the world, so to speak.
And of course, you have then people who are super rich.
Now, I'm so rich, but actually I have no power.
I have very little power, yes, compared to what a governor has.
And now you have people like Gates, who maybe have this trend.
So he's, well, as they say, well, you're just a software developer.
Yes, you have a lot of money, but you're just a software developer.
Yeah, this ironic statement that he must hear a lot of times.
And on the other hand, and with Bill Gates, it's quite interesting.
Because his family was very strong in the depopulation movement.
Yes, his father was very active in this area, and I think this is also a strand of his thinking.
Yes, when he reunites with people in the similar category, yes, they have this idea that the world has too many people and we need a kind of depopulation, which is hard to imagine, actually, that it could really be a plan.
But when you combine that now again with the whole climate stuff, yes, yes, and saving the planet, Yes, saving the Earth by itself, it makes sense.
And this may be in part behind that idea also to move forward to depopulation.
Bill Gates spoke many times about that and he does not hide it.
And you have heard about the Georgia Stones, this memorial, so to speak, of proposing 500 million, depopulation, the rational future, and you have this expertocracy in a situation where we say, why do we need so many people?
Why do we need so many people?
Quite different from the first industrial revolution, where the, let's call it, capitalists needed workers, wanted workers.
Each country wanted a huge population.
Now we are in a phase where most people can be substituted by machine, by robots, by artificial intelligence, yes, and so we have a kind of superfluous people, useless people.
And now let's go back to the Fabian society.
In the Fabian movement that has always been a subject, what shall we do with the useless people, with those that cannot justify their existence, yes?
And so it's a nice interesting mixture of expertocracy Climate, green religion, yes, and brutal depopulation.
And it's happening very, very quickly.
I mean, today I saw some, some plans leaked.
It clearly is a plannedemic.
I've seen stuff leaked from France, where they've already decided that in June 2021, there's going to be martial law declared to deal with the latest mutation, supposed mutation of the virus.
I mean, the excuse being given in London right now for locking down the whole city and effectively banning Christmas has been supposedly that the virus has mutated and Not, I mean, people aren't dying in significant numbers at all.
But this random detail, which is a feature of every virus as far as I know, they all mutate, is being used as an excuse.
And two things amaze me here.
One is that the establishment is lying so blatantly and shamelessly.
But secondly, how many people are buying into this and are not resisting?
So, how does one deal with this?
Well, as we talked about, the media is an important, propaganda is an important element.
I mean, we are more educated people, we read a lot, also different sources, and we have to think that 90% of the population usually watch their TV or have some kind of diploid.
That's about it.
And there they are fully exposed to this propaganda.
So you can count them out and they are the majority and they will bring in the votes.
So you have this aspect.
Now, interestingly enough, yes, the individual situation of many of these people is not yet so bad because as a Still, the government can give subsidies, welfare payments, can maintain even the lack of income for small businesses, but the point is how long?
And we know it's coming to an end.
It will soon be over.
Now, I always say, I make no prognosis.
I make no prophecy.
I make no prognosis.
I only make implications.
I make implications.
Now, what is the implication?
That next year we will have massive unemployment.
Massive unemployment all over Europe, where one country pulls down the other country.
Yes, yes.
So you don't have this kind of locomotive as they used to say in the 70s, 80s.
Germany will be the locomotive and move out the rest of Europe.
That's over.
Forget about that.
There won't be any locomotive.
And now comes the point that it will happen.
And this is also new.
We had this kind of, let's say, The oil price crisis of the 70s, the two oil price shocks, and so on.
Now, we did not have a major financial crisis at that time, yes?
So, it was unemployment, but the state and the banks and the financial system kept on going.
Now, what we will get, and this is quite obvious, this huge spending, is to have a major financial crisis.
So, just imagine, you're unemployed, yes?
And you don't have any means to maintain yourself.
And the savings you have, be it your life insurance or something else, is gone.
It's gone overnight because the banks are in collapse or the life insurance company has collapsed.
How can you survive?
I mean, people will probably really, for the coming years, the real pandemic will be the effect of the lockdown.
Yes?
First the elder people, the weaker people.
Yes, a lot of depression, a lot of psychosis, of chaos, maybe even murder in the street.
You will have, I think this is my implication, I won't say it will happen.
Yes, that's what I see, what is implied in what is going on.
I mean, you have this destruction of the economy in all, let's call them generally Western countries, from the United States over Canada, To New Zealand and Western Europe.
Yes.
And so this will be the big catastrophe is in the making.
It's not yet here.
It's not yet here.
It sounds like Weimar, Germany on a global scale.
Much worse.
Yes.
Because at that time, One thing that I noted in Latin America, that was never so clear to me in Europe, let's say Argentina.
Everybody knows Argentina is in a horrible situation in the economic aspect.
But why does Argentina still work?
Well, the small business is okay, yes?
The small and medium-sized business do.
You can get your car repaired, you can get your things, your food, and the butcher is working.
This is all very efficient, it's all there.
The restaurants are open, the bars are open, yes, before the lockdown and so on.
So this middle-sized economy was flourishing.
Yes, you could get your beer, you could get your wine, you could get your meat, and so on.
And now they crashed that.
The restaurants are over, the bars are shut down, yes.
And there's also an element to it different from the Weimar Republic.
Yes, at that time you still had many, a large part of the population was still religious.
They went to church, they had their religious community for whatever belief they had.
Yes, that gave them a sense of community, also mutual help.
And even more so, also still in the 20s, yes, of the past century, you had still much more strong family ties.
There were still big families.
You had nephews, you had other things.
Now look how the situation in Europe in general is, from Spain to Ireland, yes, they are mainly single households, a few people.
How can they survive in a crisis when there's no money?
And this is also a big difference to Brazil.
For example, Brazil will survive, I'm sure, because you still have here, first of all, this open space, this lot of land, and also you have still the basic economy present.
People still can get food.
With a cart and a horse and so on.
Yes.
And on the other hand, you still have here these mega families.
I know students of mine who have 11 nephews and whatever, or 20 all over the country.
Yes.
And this is not the case in Europe.
Yes.
So the situation, in my view, looks very bleak, very horrendous in this whole area, European Union.
And America, if you see that at one block, European Union, Britain and so on, even if it's outside this block or this area, together with United States, yes, which is very dependent on a functioning, well-working economy, especially the financial part, yes, and so when the financial crash comes, And we had a foretaste in 2008.
You remember the pictures in bank lines waiting to draw their cash from the bank.
Yes, this could well happen because you have a collapse of credit.
I don't know how they did it in Britain, but in Germany, The government postponed the application to declare bankruptcy.
So we have thousands and maybe mega thousands of businesses that are bankrupt but have not yet declared bankruptcy because they are freed from this necessity to declare bankruptcy when the accounting says that they are unable to maintain their business.
So a huge wave of that will come.
Unemployment will come.
Banking crisis will come.
Yes, and so...
The government has no more funds.
Yes, it will be either mega inflation or a major contraction.
That's what we see.
So it is horrible.
And it was not the virus.
Yes, not at all the virus.
It was the lockdown.
Yes.
And it is a shock.
And the point is that most people We just cannot comprehend it because this dimension explodes anything we are used to think.
It's so outrageous.
Yes, as you said from the beginning, how can they do it?
How could they do it?
Well, the history has many examples where in reader's perspective we say, how could they do that?
And they did.
Yeah, so in human history it's not an outlier.
How can people protect themselves?
I mean, people are going to be watching this and they're going to be horrified and they're going to not know what to do.
Have you got any tips?
Well, you cannot give general tips in this way.
It has to be a very personal decision how to protect oneself, how the situation is.
And there's also another difference.
For example, after World War II in Germany, there was not, besides there were help, but the help was coming with a mushroom plant much later, there was not a mega starvation, because even in the cities, people had small gardens.
that is largely forgotten.
Even you had these structures of houses, in a square, and inside most of the tenants had small garden places where they grew also animals.
Chickens, they had eggs, rabbits, fruits, vegetables and so on, potatoes, and you hardly don't have that anymore.
Well, you have a survival movement in the United States, this does not work in Europe because we don't have a space.
It has to be an individual decision what to do, yes, and it is not easy.
Yes, it is not easy.
But what I think one can say, one should not bank on money, having money.
So your savings are really the problem.
The most of our security for the future is the feeling, OK, I have a pension.
OK, I have some savings.
Yes, that's where we count.
Yes.
But the government can't pay anymore your pension and you don't have access to your savings account.
So calculate this, yes?
How do you survive?
How do you live?
And so in earlier times you had your relatives, yes?
And many people, even in their twenties, still had family in the countryside.
In the countryside, you always have something to eat and something to sleep.
That's what you need.
Many people who lived in the cities went back to live with their brother for some time, and so on.
Yes, as this is all no longer possible, and it is hard to reconstruct.
But people could do that, yes.
I hope it will not happen, yes, of course.
One can pray or whatever to think it won't happen.
It will all turn well.
So I don't make any prophecies or prognoses.
I only say implications.
And my implications may be wrong.
Because my equation is not perfect.
I may miss something.
Yes.
So, I'm not a prophet.
I just say as it is of now, as I see it, this is what looks as is the result of this composition of the facts.
Yes.
Yes.
Just one thing.
Right now, I don't know about you, I'm pinning a lot of my hopes on the stolen election.
being somehow maneuvered back into its rightful winner, Donald Trump.
Donald Trump, it seems to me, is a bulwark against this tendency.
He is not part of the swamp.
He's not part of the World Economic Forum.
He's not part of this.
He represents the ordinary people.
And I think if the leader of the free world can be presenting an alternative vision to this great reset, then maybe that would be a chance to turn things round.
Well, that could well be the case.
Sometimes I pin my hope on that too, because he could really be an example and make the new direction.
In the lockdown, the US will have a strong, quick recovery.
And the Europeans will follow.
Yes, that would be to end with a positive scenario.
But one has to take into account what a hard position, what a tough position he is in, how many enemies all around.
I mean, a president and has his Twitter account censured.
This is absolutely crazy.
This is so crazy.
And you have these major channels, ABC, NBC, CNN, that only bring negative news or hide anything negative about Biden and his family and so on.
So it is absolutely outrageous what is going on.
And I mean, if we survive the whole stuff and it turns out OK, In any case, it will be a fantastic area of research for many generations of historians to see into the details what really had happened.
It is more than 9-11, it is more than the murder of Kennedy and so on.
It is something amazing.
Well, let's hope it goes out this way.
Trump somehow stays in power.
He ends the lockdown.
Yes, the economy in the US enters rapidly in a new kind of energy of strong, sharp V recovery.
And this would pull out Europe as well.
Of course.
Yes, it would.
It would.
Yes.
And it would also put blame on our leaders And say, OK, and news would come out.
I mean, that's also important that who had done that, what was behind that, what are the details?
Yes.
And well, we only have half a month or more than half a month to save the world.
Yes.
Yes.
Good.
Well, Antony, Dr. Muller, it's been fascinating, if slightly depressing, talking to you.
Thank you very much for that, for your insights.
And please, everyone who's enjoyed this, please remember to support me on Patreon and Subscribestar.
This is how I keep myself going with these podcasts.
Dr. Muller, thank you.
I hope that your darker predictions are wrong.
But I share your concerns very much.
And yeah, I hope I meet you one day.
I've never been to Brazil, so I'd like to come.
OK.
Thank you so much, James.
For having me on, it's been a great talk.
Thank you for having me and I have the pleasure of talking to you.
And I totally agree with you.
I also have in my heart a spare place where there is hope and really a major hope still hidden that may come out.
Because if the things will turn out well, it may maybe turn out very well.
Yes, exactly.
I think it's almost, we need this crisis to remind us what really matters and what doesn't matter because the world's been taking a wrong turn for a long, long time now and there's a lot of damage that needs to be undone.
Yeah.
Well, let's have another chat in the future because you've been fascinating and it's been great.
Thanks a lot.
Okay.
Thanks a lot.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Thank you.
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