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May 12, 2025 - Jim Bakker Show
28:16
The Jim Bakker Show with Shaun Tabatt Part 2
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Believers Turn to Grace 00:15:01
Welcome to the Jim Baker Family Show.
Today, Sean Tabbitt explains the NDE conspiracy deception in the afterlife.
Please welcome your co-host, Reverend Mondo De La Vega.
And now here's your host, Pastor Ricky Baker.
I love that.
Reverend Mondo de la Vega.
It always makes me feel like I have to sit up and get away from you.
Yeah, I was going to say, why is he wearing a tie?
No, this kid.
Wherever, we love you.
You're a good man.
Hey, listen.
I'm not my brother, but you're a good man.
You know, when I first started hearing Mondo preach, I was probably like five or six years old, and I thought, who let that guy?
No, I'm just kidding.
No, he's got a powerful testimony.
I just want to dive into it.
You know, we've been talking about it.
I've had friends actually reach out to me about it because I gave a copy of your book to them.
It's actually a copy of the book that he signed to me.
It has my name in it, so I better get that back.
But I gave it to him.
It's a powerful testimony of how the Lord has transformed your life.
And did you ever think you'd be sitting here?
Not at all.
They told me to not make plans past 18 years old because I was not going to live to see that day.
And I wake up every morning thanking God I'm still here.
Amen.
And, you know, the amazing thing is last week, one of the head of the prisons in America called me and said, we want to carry your book in every prison in the United States.
And they're going to do a purchase on it, which is going to be unbelievable because it's thousands upon thousands of inmates that need this book, that need to know that God isn't done with them and that God had always had a plan for them.
But it's amazing that God can turn your story and turn it into a message.
That's right.
That's for me a message.
My friend said, I can't take the credit.
I wish I could.
My friend said he finished reading the book and he said, God turned that boy from a rebel to a reverend.
So I said, come on.
Amen.
Maybe I should have titled this.
That's right.
That's right.
I love it.
Well, Sean Tabbitt, I want to thank you for being on the broadcast with us today.
Thank you.
You have a book called The Near Death Experience Conspiracy.
For those who don't know or maybe haven't watched the first broadcast, you can go to PTL Television Network.
You can watch that first episode.
It kind of laid the groundwork for what we're going to be speaking about today.
But Sean Tabbitt has worked in the Christian publishing industry for over 10 years, and he currently serves as a publishing executive at Destiny Image Publishers.
And you're also the host of the Sean Tabbitt Show and Grieve Like a Man podcast.
So right before we dive into this book, tell us what this is.
Obviously, I know your podcast is kind of what, like you said, whatever it is you want to talk about.
But what is Grieve Like a Man podcast?
One of the things I saw, and again, some of you who are familiar with my journey, my wife, Lynette, late wife Lynette passed away from brain cancer about a year ago.
And throughout that whole journey as a man who is grieving, I discovered most of the podcasts and books and resources that are out there are very female-centric.
So I listened to a lot of women talking about grieving on podcasts throughout that journey.
And with Grieve Like a Man, we're just trying to create a space for people to have manly conversations, to talk about the griefs that men face.
It's not always the loss of a loved one.
Sometimes it can be the loss of a job, the loss of a dream.
You know, there's a lot of things that we grieve throughout the journey.
The one interview on Grieve Like a Man I'd recommend most, I interviewed Pastor Bill Johnson, who's a friend of mine.
He lost his wife about a year before I did.
And then my wife passed on about a year later.
And so we come at the conversation as a seasoned pastor mentor talking to a younger man who we both lost our lives and both lost our wives and what we walked through.
So that was a journey that helped me with Bill.
And then just, you know, being able to share that with the world has been wonderful.
Where can somebody watch that?
Grievelikaman.com or search for it on YouTube as well.
But again, trying to help men with grief, which is something that is under-addressed in the church, in my opinion.
I think the one thing in terms of near-death experiences as a whole, medical technology has improved.
So as more people are able to be resuscitated, just these experiences that are recorded and shared have grown a lot more widely.
I think the cultural conversation has shifted where as people have fallen away from church and they're looking for something to fill that spiritual void in their life, they've been attracted to the history channel and the learning channel and all these shows about aliens and ghost hunters.
And, you know, you pick your thing.
There's lots of shows of near-death experiences too.
The difficult thing with more of the secular content around near-death experiences and related topics is it all always goes into psychics and mediums and bad theology and poor teaching.
It's never just sharing straight up heaven and hell testimonies and experiences that are very Jesus-centric.
Even a lot of the documentaries, some that have been produced by Christian friends and acquaintances of mine, because they want to appeal to a more secular leaning audience with their film, they'll edit out a lot of the overt Jesus content and the testimonies that these people have.
And my hope with this book and other books that I've worked on, I want to always point people to Jesus.
There's even a gospel presentation at the end of this book because if we're telling people about heaven, we're telling people about hell, but we don't tell them about Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life, the only way that they're going to get to heaven, we've failed.
We're told them there is a left and afterlife, but we don't tell them how to get where they want to go.
And so we need to be always very Jesus-centric in our presentation of near-death experiences.
You know, I love that one.
We don't always tell them.
We have to be able to explain it to them.
You know, like we've talked about this before, you know, if we start here in Missouri and we're on our way to Chicago, Illinois, there's a highway that has to be taken and there's exits that have to be taken and there's right turns and there's wrong turns that can be made.
And it's our responsibility to really help guide others in that.
And Mondo, I think it's incredible, isn't it?
Ayahuasca is one of those detours that you can talk about because people are taking drugs, drug trips.
Right.
Ayahuasca being one of them with Aaron Rodgers making it a big deal and why he's still not signing with the NFL team.
But why do we seek ayahuasca trips, drug trips, to give us that experience that the Bible gives it to us just by reading it?
Yeah, I think it's the same attraction of why people would consult a psychic or a medium.
They want to take things into their own hands.
They maybe want to shortcut where it's anything but Jesus.
It's anything by what they see in the Bible.
There's such a resistance at times in culture to just express the plain truth of scripture because, well, I think for some people, they feel like they have a lot to lose.
If they're famous or they have a big platform, if they suddenly profess Jesus, as they've seen with other famous people in Hollywood and elsewhere, they've lost a lot of their ability to earn an income because people kind of shun them because, well, now you're a follower of Jesus.
So it's that temptation.
I want to tap into the spiritual.
But I also want to maintain my fame.
And they feel like if they acknowledge Jesus, they might lose it.
The subject of what you wrote about, explain once again what's NDE.
Sure.
Because a lot of people don't know about it.
Maybe they know, but they don't understand what that means.
So what does it mean and what is it?
Yeah.
A near-death experience or NDE for short is a way to describe what happens when somebody dies.
So in a near-death experience, somebody may be sick, near death.
They might even be in a coma.
Some of them might even be clinically dead where there's no heartbeat.
There's no brain activity.
In whatever variety of circumstances somebody finds themselves in, their soul leaves their body.
They enter into an out-of-body experience.
And then that soul often rises towards a tunnel or a light and then crosses the veil, as we might say, into the second heaven, into the afterlife to the other side.
And so near-death experience is just kind of a general term we use to sort of umbrella cover the whole range of what falls under that.
Wow.
Wow.
You know, I think it's incredible that the Christian world, like we talked about this, maybe 20, 30 years ago, this would have been fringe.
Right.
This would have not been mainstream media.
We were joking.
I said, you know, I used to fall asleep on my grandmother's couch.
I'd wake up at 2 in the morning.
The history channel would be playing something about this.
But I think it's time for believers to step up to the plate and understand that the Bible has answers to all of our questions, even to the near-death experience.
And friends, I want to let you know right now, the most important thing that you can have is a relationship with Jesus Christ.
That when you know you die, confidently, you can say, I am going to go to heaven.
And here, well done, my good and faithful servant.
Because, like you said, there are near-death experiences where people see an orb or a ball of light and they say, Hey, everyone makes it in.
Doesn't matter how you lived your life, whatever you did.
Like you said, they come back with bad theology.
Friends, there's one way to heaven.
It's Jesus Christ, the only way to heaven.
He said, I am the way, I am the truth, and I am the life.
Nobody comes to the Father.
Nobody sees the Father except through me.
So in a world that is diametrically opposed to what it is that we believe, do not allow deception to enter your heart.
There's only one way to heaven and it's Jesus Christ.
We love you enough to say, hey, we care more about your eternal position than your temporary satisfaction or your temporary happiness.
We want to know that you are eternally placed with Jesus Christ.
And if you need help walking through that salvation prayer, call our number.
We'd love to talk it through with you.
It's 1-888-988-1588.
It is the most important, the most critical, and the best decision you will ever make in your entire life to follow Jesus wholeheartedly.
You want to ask you a question as you've interviewed people, you've been doing this for seven years now, really diving into this subject.
Do you notice a vast difference between people who are believers in Jesus and people who are not believers in Jesus on the near-death experience issue?
Yeah, I mean, people who, I obviously can't define how or who or why, but when there are non-Christians who enter into heavenly experiences, ironically, where they will encounter Jesus.
There are people who think they are card-carrying, 100% believers who sometimes enter into hell experiences.
So there is a lot of variety.
I think the thing that really intrigued me in the past seven years is trying to understand, you know, does a person's particular denomination, whether they're of an evangelical persuasion or Catholic or something, how does that influence?
Yes.
You know, people of other faith as they're having experiences.
How does that influence?
And by and large, the people I've talked to, it seems like people enter into these traditional sorts of experiences that we talk about in the book, where they'll enter into a heavenly or a hellish experience.
In the hellish experiences, what's interesting is people can be being put down into a place of eternal punishment.
Often they talk about being put in what looks like a jail cell or a prison cell, and they'll cry out to Jesus.
And these people are not believers at all, necessarily, but an angel might show up or Jesus might show up and say, you know, basically I'm going to give you a second chance and they'll get pulled out of that hell experience.
But it's because of the intercession and prayers of a mother or a grandmother, somebody that's been praying for that person, you know, sometimes for multiple decades.
And so one of the fascinating things is when you study and read about these experiences, it kind of challenges some of our theology a little bit because we're very wooden with how we interpret scriptures at times where we're like, if you do this, you go to heaven.
You do that, you go to hell.
But yet we've seen cases where the prayers of a grandmother get somebody pulled out of hell.
Or it's like God gives everybody every opportunity to turn from him.
People have shared stories with us where they're ambulance chasing.
They're in their out-of-body experience, following the ambulance in the spirit to the hospital.
And they'll see like the Lord's Prayer, the words showing up before them.
They're praying the Lord's Prayer and getting saved as their physical bodies in the ambulance.
And so it seems like God will slow down time and do anything he can to give us every absolute opportunity to turn from him.
And so the thing I take away from that is God's love, God's grace is so much bigger for not only the believer and the non-believer that he's just trying to get us to turn to him, wants to have a deeper relationship with us, even in the midst of a near-death experience.
Amen.
We tend to lose sight sometimes as believers, especially in the rigor and rule of Sundays and Wednesdays and Friday night services.
But Christ's purpose on the cross was that not one would be lost.
Now, some have been lost since then.
People have died without accepting him as their Lord and Savior and giving their lives fully to him.
But the entire purpose of the cross was for him to get everything that he paid for.
And he paid for all of us.
He bought us in blood.
Friends, I want to make sure you have that relationship with Jesus Christ and your family does too.
Be the witness in your family today.
Be the witness in your family this week.
Be the witness in your family this year.
Be the person that constantly reminds people there is a real God.
His name is Jesus.
And he died on a cross so that you could be locked in, have intimacy, and know him forever.
You know, this book, The Near Death Experience Conspiracy.
Right.
Conspiracy is quite a strong word.
Yeah.
You know, conspiracy, like I said, when people hear that 20 years ago, it's tin foil hats.
Nowadays, the only way they say, Mono, the only difference between a conspiracy and the truth is about six months.
So, you know, we see the word conspiracy is a strong word.
Why conspiracy?
Yeah, you know, again, as a guy who's widely read in this space, I've not seen a lot of people necessarily talk about Satan.
So I have a whole chapter in this book setting up who Satan is as a fallen angel.
What are demons?
You know, Satan's a deceiver, a liar, a murderer.
And basically, my whole premise in the book is that God has given these near-death experiences as a way to show not only the experiencer, but those who read about, listen to their testimonies, to say, hey, I'm real, and I want to reveal myself to you.
Heaven and hell are real.
There's one way to get to heaven through my son, Jesus Christ.
And I really feel like that's God's intent through these near-death experiences.
But whether it's, you know, an overt deception, I'll share this story.
I have a friend, Brian Melvin.
He worked at a construction site.
His foreman had gone to Mexico over the weekend.
His truck broke down, overheated.
He filled a bunch of his coolers with river water, threw them in the back of his truck in case he broke down again, and thought nothing of it.
Well, he goes to the work site on Monday, and there's some coolers with Mexican river water sitting in the back of the truck.
And Brian, for better or worse, grabs one of those coolers, drinks a bunch of water before he realizes it's this river water.
And he ends up getting cholera of all things.
And so that's what causes Brian to step into the afterlife.
But Brian finds himself in this space.
It looks like his childhood home.
You know, a few things are out of place, but it's the house he grew up in.
And he's got people coming up to him like a welcoming committee saying, Brian, we're so glad you're here.
Welcome.
Welcome to heaven.
We're so glad you're here.
This is wonderful.
And all of a sudden, he sees somebody that looks like his mother.
And he has this thought, hey, wait, my mom's not dead.
Why would she be here welcoming me into heaven?
And so he would tell you, if he'd been resuscitated in the early parts of that experience, he would have thought he was fine.
When he died again, he would go to heaven.
But as he has that thought that that's my mother, but she can't be here because she's not dead, the whole scenario shifted.
And what looked like people welcoming him shifted into these demonic like serpent creatures.
And one of them like walks up and kind of tears a hole in the sky and walks him through a doorway or a portal down into a hell experience.
False Near-Death Experiences 00:03:00
And so Brian's story is probably one of the most overt deceptions that I've seen.
We've talked about the beings of the balls of light that give kind of bad theology, that sort of a thing.
So you've got all this kind of overt and covert deception, almost like in some circumstances when a spirit crosses the veil, as if they're in the second heaven where angels and demons are still active because God's in the third heaven.
At times it seems that Satan or demons will hijack one of these souls and take them into a false near-death experience.
And it can look like Brian's or it can look like that ball of light experience.
And that is the conspiracy that Satan is hijacking what God meant to good to use it for his own purposes to lead people astray.
And then also you have all this weird stuff that's been attracted into the space.
You would think going to a conference about NDEs, we talk about heaven and hell encounters, but there's all this discussion, again, as we've alluded to in the last episode, with psychics and mediums and past and pre-life memories and even alien encounters.
It seems like a work of Satan to attract all this other stuff into a space that could just be conversations about heaven and hell.
Yep.
Well, I think we try to normalize it.
Yes.
What do I mean by that?
Let's go back a few years, the movie The Sixth Sense.
Right.
Let's go way back now, the movie Ghost with Patrick Swayze.
Right.
I mean, they try to normalize and really romanticize this experiences, and it got people into a place where it's supposed to be normal.
But this, I guess what I'm trying to ask you is this.
If a believer is having an experience like this, is it normal?
Do we normalize this?
Or is it something that we have to be cautious and be warning about?
I think just with how culture is talking about NDEs now, it is somewhat normalized, but we do need to just be discerning about what people are experiencing.
For the person themselves who's had an experience, they've had a near-death experience.
What do they do with it?
You know, when people come out of that, they are often quite traumatized just by what brought them to the point of death.
If they have a hell experience, those are very traumatizing.
And so, you know, having resources like this that gives you a framework to be able to structure and process can be very helpful.
Just functionally speaking, and this is through Dr. Jeffrey Long's research, it takes people seven years to come to terms with what they experienced, whether it was a heaven or a hell NDE.
It's almost like the download they got on the other side, their brain can't process it.
It takes many years for them to come to terms with it.
So it's not necessarily bad or a judgment on you because you had an experience, but you definitely want to get with a pastor or other experiencers, people to be able to relate to you and talk you through it because it's something that you may need some counseling because it can be PTSD inducing.
Numana: Family-Ready Meals 00:03:02
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Discernment in NDE Discussions 00:07:56
I want to thank New Mana for being a part of that journey with us.
You know, I almost called you pastor.
Can I call you?
I don't know.
I get called that a lot.
I'm not officially a pastor, but it seems God's working on my heart with that one.
There we go, guys.
I was going to say, Pastor Sean, Pastor Sean, you know, what responsibility does the church have in this?
Because we can talk about this all day long from a biblical point of view, but at some point, the pulpit has to address this.
What responsibility do pastors have?
Yeah, I feel like the near-death experience question is one of those deer in the headlights sort of moments where they didn't cover this in my seminary classes.
But the reality is, culture is talking about this.
Like we've talked about, there are books, documentaries, Netflix series all about NDEs, good and bad.
And, you know, sooner or later, somebody's going to ask you about it.
I think often the pastor is going to be brought into a conversation when either A, somebody's had a near-death experience and they're trying to wrestle with it and how does it fit with what they know from the scriptures, or more often than not, somebody who has lost a loved one and they're looking for hope and for comfort.
I've even encountered people at conferences where they've talked to me about how they were just looking on Google and YouTube and they found videos that talked about NDEs and it led them to consulting a medium and they had a spirit guide and all this negative, dark stuff.
And then they found content that Randy Kay and I had made where we were very Jesus-centric and they came to realize, hey, I'm dabbling in some bad stuff.
I got to get rid of that and get more Jesus in my life.
And so, as leaders, as pastors, we have to be prepared to answer whatever questions the folks in our flock might bring to us.
I think a couple of practical things we can do, if we have a church bookstore or a church library, you know, put good resources like the NDE Conspiracy or John Burke's book, Imagine Heaven, to have those things as resources you can refer to when somebody has questions like this.
I think if you have people who are asking a lot of questions or are curious, you could do a book study, you could do just even a sermon or a sermon series just to open up that conversation.
Because if we're not willing to fill that void, I can tell you culture is going to fill it.
Yeah, the world definitely will.
Absolutely.
I think about what you just said, and I think about this.
The spirit realm is getting more aggressive each day.
Yeah, 100%.
I'm talking about good and evil.
It's getting very aggressive.
God wants to get your attention, but also know that the enemy is trying to get your attention to sway you away.
You said a powerful word.
Write this down.
Discernment is going to be the key right now for you to understand what aggression you're willing to take on.
Because I want to tell you something.
God is going to be speaking to you in ways that the Bible talks about, but the discernment is what you're going to need in order to understand: is this good?
Is this evil?
Is this God?
Is this Lucifer?
Who is this?
Well, thank God that God makes things very simple and practical in the way of a book.
I want you to go to the website right now and get discernment in a book titled The NDE Conspiracy.
Can we trust eyewitness accounts of heaven and hell and the afterlife?
The number to call is 1-888-988-1588.
What if you have an experience and don't have an interpretation to it?
I tell you this.
When you get an invention, this was years ago.
They don't have it anymore because of social media and Google.
But years ago, when you used to watch TV, you see, if you have an invention, call this number.
If you have an encounter and you want to know more about it, get the book.
Amen.
Read about it.
Have discernment right now.
The spirit realm is getting aggressive.
Where you find yourself is going to be up to you.
You know, so through this, the NDE conspiracy, where is hope for believers who have maybe had a near-death experience and they're still maybe a little bit confused about it?
Their pastor hasn't addressed it.
They don't really want to tell anyone because then, you know, they fear of looking kooky or looking like, you know, they're going to be called a conspiracy theorist or they're going to be told that their experience wasn't valid.
Right.
What's the hope for them as they enter this season in their life where maybe they're trying to find the hope?
Well, I think the first thing I would say to experiencers is, one, you're not alone.
There are many people who have had these experiences.
In the book, we talk about how people have been recording near-death experiences for thousands and thousands of years.
So maybe it's a little more normalized than we think.
I would say, you know, in terms of what you experienced, whether you had a heaven experience or a hell experience, your testimony is powerful and your testimony will be used to point people to Jesus.
People who've been to heaven often come back saturated in the love of Jesus.
They're very evangelistic and they're like, brother or sister, have you heard about Jesus?
They want to tell you about Jesus.
People who've had hell experiences, they are all about, man, let's get right with God.
Let's get our lives cleaned up and let's pursue God with a reckless abandon.
So regardless of which type of experience you had, even if you had a false experience and you're realizing that and you realize now that Jesus is calling you unto himself, I think you can use that kind of experience to warn others that these kinds of deceptive experiences are out there.
Regardless of what type it was, your testimony is important and you can use that to tell people about Jesus.
Amen.
It's all about Jesus, isn't it, Mondo?
100%.
It's always been about him.
That's all it is.
And it'll always be about him.
Amen.
It is all we have.
Friends, I want you to go to our affiliate page with Nori Media.
It's Destiny Image Harrison House.
You can go, call our number.
It's 1-888-988-1588.
The NDE Conspiracy.
Can we trust eyewitness accounts of heaven, hell, and the afterlife?
Or you can go to jimbakershow.com and click that affiliate link or scan that QR code on your screen.
Mondo, I think this is something that people should break down.
They should have it, you know, maybe give it as a gift to your pastor, an elder in your church, a friend.
Do a Wednesday night study with it.
Because I know a lot of people are, they're getting away from, you know, traditional Wednesday night studies and they're going to books and they're saying, hey, you know, each Wednesday, we're going to together read a chapter of this and then we're going to discuss it.
We've had a lot of people do that with books that we've offered here on the program.
And Ando, honestly, why not throw something like this into the mix?
Listen, and I know people love to be critical.
Read it.
Go online.
Talk about it.
That's how you share the word.
Dad always says this to us.
Good news.
No, bad news is always good news.
Why?
Because you share it.
You talk about it.
But again, being able to be educated on this subject matter, because right now, when you go to social media, there's a lot of questions being asked, Sean.
And yet you said it best.
Point it back to Jesus.
If someone doesn't know the Lord right now that has had an encounter quickly, what do we do?
Yeah, if you don't know the Lord and you've had an encounter, and that's why I offer a gospel presentation in this book is it's as simple as a quick prayer of asking Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and be the Lord and Savior over your life to lead you into truth and lead you out of darkness.
It can be that simple.
And God is using these experiences not only to impact those who've had them, but also the world around them who long to hear these stories and find them fascinating.
That's right.
If you want help praying that prayer, friends, because I know sometimes, you know, you just need someone to be there with you on this journey.
We want to be there for you.
Our number is 1-888-988-1588.
We'd love to pray the salvation prayer with you, and we'd love to pray a rededication prayer with you.
We want to help you find a good Bible-believing church in your area that preaches the full word of God.
We want to be there to assist you in this faith journey.
And, Pastor Sean, or Sean, sorry, I'm sorry.
I want to say thank you for being on this broadcast with us today.
Thanks for talking about this.
Friends, go order this book, The NDE Conspiracy.
It's available through our Nori Media affiliate, or you can call our number.
It's 1-888-988-1588.
We have to go, but I want you to remember this: God loves you, He really does.
Bye-bye for today.
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