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This is part two of the latest debate on Mario Nafal.
I'm really loving these panels because I'm getting to show my work just like I do in this show.
So please consider supporting the broadcast via the links down below.
Now, in this show at the end, we're also going to show you a segment from Invisible Empire detailing the arms trade and the Iran-Contra affair so people can really understand the connections and how the world works.
Buckle up and get ready to make sense of the madness.
And I just don't understand why the Republican Party continues to just, you know, make promises and then not follow through with them when they have the power.
And there's just so much that could be done that they say, well, you know, it's 2026 or 2028.
Now is not the time.
Now is not the time.
We had the big bloated budget pass, which is a bunch of partisan pork.
The Doge cuts couldn't be codified.
There's a reason Elon Musk peeled off from the GOP and is pissed off at Trump and the Republicans and is flirting with other parties, including making his America Party.
Maybe there's an opportunity for a coalition between the Libertarians and the America Party to take about a dozen seats from Congress and hold Congress hostage.
So that way we can't pass any more bloated pork and actually bring our country back to off the fiscal clip.
Chief, actually, sorry, when pigs fly.
When pigs fly.
Hold on, hold on.
Chief, sorry, Mike, I swear to I'm going to do it.
I'm so sorry.
Chief, here's my question.
Let me back up.
I promise.
Hold me.
Chief, let me take Josiah's perspective, though.
Because he has a point.
You either support the GOP or Democrats run this.
I don't disagree with it.
I mean, if you're Mike, and this was kind of my question to him.
So, Mike, this is my quick, you know, to get ready.
But if you're a Democrat, like, you know, kind, you know, make something, take a step back.
Let them get at each other.
Let them fight.
Elon Musk treats his.
Maybe he gets the libertarians.
He does all that.
Josiah's not wrong.
I say, if you want this, you're guaranteeing Democrats take control in 2026.
So should there be a moment where even MAGA says, okay, wait a minute.
Do we, what's what's more, and maybe this is a question for you.
You let me know.
Is this a situation where the Epstein file is from a, you know, a policy perspective or even from like an ideal ideology perspective, the top priority?
And you'd rather, if they're not going to release the Epstein files, okay, that means GOP is dead to me and I'd rather stomp the Democrats back some power.
Or do you think, as Josiah is saying, hey, if you peel away and you take a step back and you don't support us, you're guaranteed Democrats.
So maybe you do just have to continue to hold your nose and just deal with what you got.
Right.
That's a question.
But, you know, here's why I'd say about that.
You know, it's whether you want to, you know, pull the trolley and, you know, basically, no, I'm at this.
It's basically where you want to have two paths.
One is where you have a bad outcome or another bad outcome.
It's like two poisons.
You can't really make the right decision there.
I will say if you need like chat GPT to look up Trump wins, we're in a kind of a desperate spot there.
I could think of like one, one possible thing that Trump has done, which is good, is that the border crossings have gone down to pretty much like zero.
It's gone down significantly.
However, I mean, mass deportations by numbers have not been happening.
This big, beautiful bill is filled with a lot of big, not so beautiful pork.
It's not been a very solid bill overall.
And now we're getting possibly amnesty or allowance of some of these migrants to actually be there with these new visa programs.
And there's a bunch of other issues I have in the Trump administration.
But one of the point is this whole files thing, you can go and like have good border security, you can do other things and also want deputy files to be released.
It's not like he can only do one thing and it's a binary choice.
You can do many things.
I will say for this, the GOP didn't die from the executive not being released.
It died from a thousand cuts, starting with their failure to do mass deportations, a failure to balance the budgets.
I mean, we could go through the list of all the failures they've had over the years, but this one thing didn't do it.
But I think this one is just shows hypocrisy of the GOP, sorry, the GOP and just shows that they really have no clue what they're doing at all.
The Trump administration has failed us on this completely.
They should release the files.
And I can't really think of any Trump wins aside from that one thing, which was reducing board crossings, but not mass deportations.
We're getting into war with Iran.
We like bombed the Middle East.
We're going to be pushing for pretty much in that whole conflict right now from that.
And things are going to get a lot worse, unfortunately.
So that's kind of my outlook on it.
But the Democrats, Republicans, they're all the same in my eyes.
They've let us down and they're for the American people, unfortunately.
So, Mike, let me go to you.
If you're advising, let's say, Hakeem Jeffries, what would you say?
Because what I'm getting at is the GOP is tearing itself apart.
Do the Democrats feel the flu, you know, pour more fuel to the fire or do they take a step back?
What would you say, Mike?
Well, you definitely don't want to take the opportunity to be a hypocrite.
It's just like I say, Trump doesn't have the luxury of setting the house on fire and then complaining about it's a little bit too hot in here.
I think one thing that we all need to do is calm the, turn the heat down the room just a little bit and realize that we are all one thing, one thing and one thing only.
We are all patriots here.
I refuse to accept the notion that I have to deal with a president that may want to cover up something, put something under the rug in order to get some policy victories.
It may or may not be actual policy victories because the math was played with.
My biggest thing is Trump is not going to be in office forever.
No Democrat's going to be in office forever.
What's going to happen when the pendulum swings the other way?
Even though that I caucus with the Democrats, I worry that once the Democrats are in power, because Trump has done so much so far, so fast, what is it going to look like when they're in power?
And for instance, believe it or not, Democrats own firearms as well.
I have a firearms business, right?
So this, when they watered down the Hearing Protection Act made absolutely no sense to me.
If you know anything about firearms, you know it's a lot safer training environment when you're not out there, you know, blowing your eardrums out.
So that just made zero sense to me.
When the Democrats come back into power, you know, what if they use that same power that Trump is harnessing for gun grabs?
What if they use that for all types of overreaches?
I mean, this is not an us versus them thing.
And then I'll land my plane here real quick.
One person alluded to the Democrats should be just as scared as the Republicans if the Trump files are released.
So I just, I quickly, as quickly as I could, Googled up some, looked up some information real quick.
When we look at elected people that have been charged with sex crimes against children, I'll start with the Democrats.
We have Anthony Weiner, 2017.
He got 15 or 21 months for sexting a 15-year-old.
Robert Jacob, he was the mayor of a city in Secipool.
He's on trial right now, is pending.
Amar Tor is right now councilman pending.
But let's look at the Republicans.
Dennis Hassert, 15 months, molestation.
Tim Nolan, 20 years child sex trafficking.
Ralph Shorty, 17 years trafficking, child sex trafficking.
Mike Fulmer, Republican, child pornography possession.
Joe Greenberg here in Florida, sex trafficking a minor.
Dennis Doyle, mayor of Beaverton, downloading child pornography.
So, if there's some type of giant pedophile cabal going on that the world is scared about, I don't think it's a Republican, I don't think it's a Democrat or Republican thing.
It may just be some people, but the anecdotal evidence will show it's more Republicans than Democrats.
But that is not my main point.
My main point is: stop the blame game and start the ownership game.
We were all played.
Everyone, Democrats, Republicans, Independents, green people, red people, I don't care what you are.
We were all played by this.
If you are continuing to support this, I talked to a lady the other day and said, Well, you know what?
I'm still going to stand.
I'm still going to stand behind him, even though he lied to me.
It's okay because Kamala may have lied too.
Ma'am, do you have any evidence that Kamala would have lied to you?
No, but there's just a possibility.
If we live in that type of country, we're going to be in trouble for the next hundred years.
You know, can I just add to one person that he did not mention that he should have?
Barney Frank, actually, although never convicted, had ethics committee hearings because he was running an underage brothel through one of his paid assistants in DC during the late 80s, early 90s.
Anybody can look up a skeleton in Barney's closet for that.
Stefano, I'd love to address the Israeli issue because everybody has their own little opinion, right?
You talked literally, I was literally going to go to you next and say, Jason, I mean, I know you have like the pictures ready, so just go.
Well, let's talk about the Israeli issue just really quickly.
Because what I think you have is this symbiotic relationship where you have alliances and proxies and plausible deniability built into some missions.
For instance, if you look at the movie Argo, I mean, Hollywood has aggrandized that Israeli CIA mission to make the fake movie.
Arnon Milken, you know, who's big Hollyweird forever, he was an outward Mossad and IDF, you know, undercover operative.
Did a ton of things for them.
All right.
Then you look at Iran-Contra, which has been mentioned many times here, and Adnan Khashoggi.
You know, a lot of those arms deals, again, where the arms were being bought by Israel in Poland and Czechoslovakia, then shipped down to Bolivia and then to the rest of the world.
I tagged you in a section of my film, Invisible Empire, that lays it all out for you, all admitted.
When that happened, you also had Adnan Khashoggi, who is mentioned here, brokering a ton of those deals.
A man who had a harem and was in business with Jeffrey Epstein during the 80s.
So that would be one of the symbiotic.
Now, let me talk about the ones that maybe you have that blackmail aspect because that is going on all the time.
Pollock did that interview with John Keriaku, and John Keriaku mentioned this network of Israelis that was being picked up just prior to 9-11 throughout the country.
Okay, and this has absolutely been reported on.
There was actually a five-part series by Carl Cameron and Tony Frost of Fox News.
Tony Frost would become the press secretary under the second Bush.
Now, that network would get picked up pre-9/11.
They were art students.
They also had kiosks and malls, but they had penetrated all these different, not only known military bases and intel offices, but secret ones as well.
Well, it just so happens that Israel at the time had companies called Amdocs and Converse that essentially all telecommunications had to go through them.
So they wouldn't be able to say wiretap something, but they would have a phone record of one number to another and how long that would take.
So on 9-11, several of these operatives are picked up.
You've heard of the quote-unquote dancing Israelis.
They weren't dancing, but they were.
Sorry, Jason, let me share some breaking news.
Sure.
If I may.
So this probably was because of relationship aspect, but Comey's daughter fired.
Prosecutor who handled Epstein and Diddy's case gets axed.
Maureen Comey, who handled the Epstein and Maxwell cases, just got the boot.
Fired under Article 2, meaning presidential authority.
She prosecuted Epstein.
I'm reading from Mario's direct tweet in parentheses, who, quote, killed himself.
And then Maxwell convicted and Diddy acquitted on some of the charges, but convicted on others.
Trump's been calling the Epstein files a hoax created by her dad, James Comey, the former FBI director.
Now his daughter is out of a job.
So, sorry, I know, Jason, you're laying this out, but I have to go to this.
You're firing the lead prosecutor who, for however flawed you might say it is, however flawed it might be, it is.
She was the one who was investigating Epstein.
She was the one who brought the charges against Epstein.
She's the one who convicted Jacine Maxwell.
And a lot of the information we have publicly available, at least at the moment, is because of her case.
And she just got fired after Trump alluded that the Epstein files are a Democratic hoax done even by the support of James Comey.
So not, what do you think?
Do you think, is this?
I think we're going to the special counsel, bro.
I think that it's the only way that this is going to get wrapped up right now.
You're going to see this.
No, I think what's going to happen is you're seeing the firings, right?
And you're, first of all, anybody who gets named is either going to be low level or dead.
So let me give you a great example of somebody that they're going to roll out right now.
They're going to roll out Bill Richardson because they can, because it's the Democratic narrative and it's connected to the Clintons.
Now, what a lot of people, we've talked about the island many times.
Let me just show you something really quick.
That's a little bit more, I don't know, secluded than an island that has other islands on it.
That is Zorro Ranch, which was never investigated.
And guess what?
Bill and Hillary Clinton, according to people that work there, actually had estate parts there.
So this is the little ranch.
They stay in this red building.
I believe the big one right here.
And that was like their little garage.
So we talk about Ehud Barak.
But again, Bill and Hillary Clinton at Zorro Ranch never been investigated.
At the same time, you have Epstein's lawyer saying he was a big part of the Clinton Foundation, the Clinton Initiative.
Bill Richardson, who was the governor of New Mexico, very involved in that and also ran for president back in 2008.
So look, gear up for it.
A lot of the names that are already out there are now going to be brought out probably over the next couple years.
I think they have to get it going if they don't want to lose seats before the midterm.
So expected, I would say, probably within the next three to six months, but don't expect anyone to be arrested.
Even in the Ghelain Maxwell trial, you have to understand that some of the documents were not allowed to be seen by the jury.
The majority were, but then you have to ask yourself, just like the FBI document I just showed, well, who approved this?
Bill Barr's Over-Promises00:14:42
And why can't we know who approved it?
Why is this big part blacked out right here?
Why are you telling me there's no documents when there's one right in front of me?
So it's literally like, don't look up, right?
Don't believe your lying eyes.
And I think they're going to try to fix that through a special counsel and unfortunately some type of 9-11 commission style whitewash.
It kind of turns my stomach, Stefano.
So Diddy.
Dave, let me go to you.
I'll let you answer, but I wanted to go to you.
Let's say they announced a special counsel and I'm going to throw a name out there.
Bill Barr.
I mean, like, I mean, like, I'm literally trying to go through my, like, who in your mind would be if they announce a special counsel and then the names, like, for you, could be like, okay, they're really doing this to get out of the truth.
What is the name you're looking for for them to get to the truth?
Or maybe is there, or maybe there isn't a name.
I don't know that there is in Washington.
I guess Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich, maybe.
I don't know, man.
There's not many.
It's not going to be Mike Pompeo or James Clapper or Bill Barr, the son of the guy that hired Epstein at the Dalton School.
Let me tell you that.
But, you know, I don't think that no matter who they appoint, that this could be accepted by the American people.
If you're going to appoint anyone closely connected to the political class, whether it's on the Democrat side or the Republican side, especially because the swamp was so deeply involved, many of these names we are talking about already, so deeply involved in the Russiagate hoax and the 51 investigators and the cover-up of the Biden laptop and the cover-up of the Twitter files.
The list goes on and on and on.
So, Stefano, I don't know that there is an answer outside of the white horse that is, you know, an endangered species in Washington, D.C. Stefano.
Because you just said Bill Barr, let me just show you one video quickly.
Why I'm not concerned what I say now on this live stream.
Listen, this is why it cannot, it could never be Bill Barr.
Watch this.
This is how absurd that is.
I want to make sure I pronounce her name correctly.
Gilain Maxwell is now in federal custody.
Number one, can you ensure that she will make it to trial?
Jeffrey Epstein died in a suicide situation.
Are you locked in on this to make sure that doesn't happen, sir?
Yes.
Can you give me a sense of what you told the people in charge?
You know, it's hilarious to them.
He's laughing when he's asked whether or not they can keep her alive.
They both smile about it.
It's a bad joke, dude.
Like, again, actually, Jay said, you, this is a question that let me let me leverage that.
Okay.
Ben, I'm going to go to you for this question.
If this is all a bullshit hoax made up by the Democrats, does it mean Jacine Maxwell should get a pardon?
That she's like, I mean, it's either she's the leader of a major sex trafficking organization that trafficked child and martyrdom, one of the most heinous crimes in the 21st century.
Or if President Trump is saying this, if I'm Jacine Maxwell's attorneys, it would be malpractice for me not to go to any federal court or appeals and say, hey, I just got the chief executive in charge of the Department of Justice saying this is all a Democratic hoax.
So which one?
So if there's nothing there, is she just basically a victim of political prosecution then, based on that argument?
100%.
Yeah, she walks.
Like, that's what.
I mean, how many pictures does she have with Donald Trump?
How many times has Donald Trump taken a picture with her?
And he's just like, you know, these guys are just mighty fine people.
You know, but it's, it's more, I think it's kind of funny that Pam Bondi is doing a lot of the legwork on this because I don't know how many people remember back in 2016 when, you know, she was given $25,000 from the Trump Foundation, you know, for Trump University or whatever.
And then she immediately joined his, you know, impeachment defense team right afterward.
So Pam Bondi has a long history of defending Donald Trump scandals.
And I would not be shocked if Dislaine Maxwell walked off of this based off of a conspiracy that Donald Trump is creating in real time.
So, so Grant, let me ask you this question.
If that's the, like, let's say that actually happens or something like, you know, with all this, and because again, it's how he's framing it.
I look at commentators and how Trump is saying this, right?
He's saying, this is all a hoax.
It's all a hoax.
The Epstein Files hoax.
Now he's calling it.
People are then saying, so what?
Just seeing Maxwell then is innocent and she's just a victim of political prosecution.
I mean, and is that something that maybe even?
I mean, look, I don't know what's out of the realm of possibilities at this point with this case because everything seems fair game.
I mean, is there a situation that even maybe Donald Trump tries to commute or pardon her?
And if he does that, what the hell happens then?
What is the reaction for people to do that?
Yeah, it's a good question.
I haven't thought about that, whether or not Trump's going to pardon Ghelaine Maxwell.
I mean, but I mean, if it is a hoax, which I don't think it is, I mean, it would, I mean, it would make sense to pardon someone if she's been charged with hoax.
I mean, but I mean, but you're just pointing out the whole absurdity of it, right?
I mean, just that, that's a question that basically answers itself, right?
If this whole thing's a hoax, then how was Ghelaine Maxwell in prison?
And here's the other thing: yeah, James Comey's daughter, Maureen Comey, was the prosecutor on Glenn Maxwell and on the prosecutor for the Diddy trial.
If you look at both of those trials, they're both ran the same way.
They're both basically run as cover-up trials.
So, specifically talking about the Diddy, the Diddy trial, in that trial, they redefined freak offs as not having a party where you're inviting a bunch of people over and you're sort of getting blackmail on them, that type of deal.
But it's a freak off was just Diddy just bringing male escorts for his wife and he was just trafficking to himself.
And it's like it's basically the so it's basically the same playbook that they're that they were using in the Glene Maxwell trial where they run these they run these show trials that are very limited, they don't release everything that needs to be released, and it's basically a cover-up trial.
And how when Pam Body Pam Bondi got nominated and when Trump got into office, that Maureen Comey wasn't gone day one.
I mean, or let alone after her father is on what Instagram saying 8647.
I mean, someone wake these people up in the Trump White House.
Stefan, let me just say: if Trump were to actually pardon Ghelaine Maxwell, you would have not only Republicans, but Democrats outside the White House with torches.
Like, no doubt about it.
But at the same time, remember when she was first arrested, what did he say?
He said, What?
I wish her well.
So he's never really gotten down on her.
And, you know, just to speak to limited hangout trials.
Steven, wait, wait, wait.
Okay, because I got, okay, I got it, your theory, the intelligence, but like it's like you're laying out a case that there might be damaging information for President Trump and some of these files, and that's why he's trying to get or his administration or people that are just in too much power, people that have had generational power, whether that be a Prince Andrew, an Ahud Barak, the Clintons.
Again, they will burn smaller-level people and people that are dead.
But just like he talked about with a limited hangout trial, if you guys don't remember the movie Siriana, okay, in-depth goes through a famous limited hangout trial that involves Robert Baer, an ex-CIA agent.
I think he is now a court, not a correspondent, but they go to him over at CNN.
And it pretty much explains, listen, this went too high.
They found people to burn.
They cut deals with the people.
They burnt, ruined their reputations, and then give them something on the back end.
Or they burned them completely and put them in prison.
You know, I saw the old Musker do, the Muskernuts, there, saying that not one client of Epstein has been prosecuted.
Well, number one, there are no clients, but the idea that no associates were prosecuted, no, actually, there was.
Jean-Luc Brunel was prosecuted and he died of suicide in prison.
The same guy rocking that Israeli army hat right there, who was what, a model recruiter.
Okay.
His connections to Les Wexner are there.
And again, we've talked about Wexner's connections not only to Israel, but greater politics in the Middle East as well.
So, you know, that's why I would point people to the BCCI scandal, because then they did round up a bunch of the low-level bankers.
What they didn't round up were the high-level members within cartels, within politics, and with the arms trade, Stefano.
And that's what this is.
I promise you 1,000%, my friend.
Well, no, I mean, what I counter to that, I mean, we do see prosecutors do this.
I mean, look, we just saw, look, no conspiracy.
The son of a chapo, Ovidio Guzman, who's in prison, the Trump administration made a deal with him.
He changed to a plea guilty bargain, and then they brought the family of Omidio Guzman into the United States and gave them asylum.
Now, you can agree or disagree with it, but this is a prosecution.
Yeah, I'm agreeing with you.
Listen, these deals are coming.
Let me just do this because let me just go one second because I know Stephen, you have to go soon.
So I want to give you an opportunity to speak.
Go ahead, Stephen.
Did we lose Stephen?
I think he's frozen.
Yeah, I don't think he's there.
That's a frozen face.
Yes.
I mean, we are going to wrap this up soon.
So, but, you know, Jason, let me go back to you and then I'll go to my trick and I'll also find a words.
But Jason, look, again, we've seen that.
I can under, I just feel like I'm still, let me make this abundantly clear that this is a, I think this is an inability of Trump to accept, to admit defeat in something.
In other words, he over-promised something that he thinks is not there.
I would say this, Stefano.
He himself doesn't ever think he promised anything because he never did promise the FC files.
But that's his ego, bro.
I get it.
I agree with you.
But again, that's his ego.
I never said those things.
And again, I mentioned at least five different things that he didn't deliver on that were kind of a big deal to a guy like me, right?
From the Assange stuff to stopping the war in the Middle East to Ukraine, right?
He did deliver on the January 6th, people.
He delivered on Ross Ulbricht.
You know, I've got to give him the wins where they are.
But Josiah, he takes it to another level.
And the thing is that as far as I go, on a baseline, a lot of people that have been politically homeless for a long time, in other words, we're not neocons and we don't go with the lunatic liberal agenda either.
We've been politically homeless for a long time.
I just think that the problem, I think the issue is, oh, okay, hopefully we can get Stephen back.
And please tomorrow, see if you can bring Stephen back because I do want to give his words on that way.
And we lost him secondly.
But actually, let me direct this.
Stephen, I know we lost you.
Here's my question.
I haven't had a chance to ask it.
I think you're back.
What Jason was saying is, you know, you got to get the wind, losses.
And what I feel like is kind of what you're saying, Stephen, is like from a libertarian perspective, you know, there's a disappointment, the no, you know, ending the wars.
What I think the problem is, what I think the problem is, Stephen, is that I think Trump is looking from a political sense, he's saying, I have this libertarian base, a libertarian MAGA.
But I think how he analyzes and looks at it, and maybe he's wrong, but I think his assumption is that's the smallest percentage of my bait that I can sacrifice.
I don't think, I think when people say, for example, Trump, when he said, I'm going to end the wars, I remember when the elections happened, and I'm like, you're talking about the guy who bombed Syria under Bashar al-Assad and their chemical weapons, when Obama did it, when he said the famous, this is my red line.
And instead of bombing them, he went in negotiations with the Russians and the Syrians and got the guy.
And he got, Obama got hammered for it.
Yeah, but bro, wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Obama started Operation Timber Sycamore, which was the military intervention.
You can't just.
I don't like either.
Hold on, hold on, Jason.
Hold on, hold on.
I was deployed in 2015 and 16 as part of OIR.
Got it.
Got it.
Track him.
But the chemical weapons fees, for example, he did it.
Trump bombed him twice in Syria.
He killed General Suleimani, right?
And then, and I just think that from your guys', like, I think what he did is like, he's like, oh, you know, for example, with the Palestinians and the Arab Voters Commission, I'm going to end the war and peace and all that.
He's like, this is the guy who is intimately close to Benjamin Nanyaku.
And I think what he's looking at from a policy perspective is that I'll just say something to you.
You will vote me when I need it.
And then I don't, you're like the least important aspect to my political vote.
And I think in the mindset, and I can't disagree with him in a sense, because if you look at the GOP Congress, how many true libertarians are there?
Very few.
Few?
One in Congress, one maybe senator with Rand Paul.
And at the end of the day, for the most part, they still vote 90% of the times with him.
And he gets his policy agenda vote.
So from his perspective, he's like, oh, you guys don't want no new words?
Well, too bad, because I just can't tolerate being perceived as weak.
And I don't want people to think that Putin owns me.
So I'm going to give now Ukraine everything because I feel like I'm getting the rugby around.
And I think that's the problem that you guys are running into is you don't have political power.
You don't have political way to change it.
So what are you going to do to change this?
Because the policies that you guys want, I think the Epstein file is a case in point in this to actually get, you don't have the political power to do it because he controls the Congress and there's nobody there is concerned about being primaried by Elon Musk now.
So how are you going to do it?
Because that's the only way you're going to have influence and smaller budget.
And more importantly, maybe force President Trump to release the Epstein files.
Lack Of Political Power00:02:46
Well, you know, I'd say that, first off, one of the things that Trump actually did very well is he reached voters where they were.
So I'm a part of the Coptic Christian community, which is a very small Orthodox Christian community, very, very small.
And he actually said something to the effect of, you know, he was going to push policies in the direction of conservative orthodoxy.
So he was going after these groups and these subgroups, I think, and making these promises and even extracting some transactions, like with freeing Ross Ulbricht, in order to get that vote.
Now, I don't know if he's underestimating to a very large degree just how passionate and how big a lot of the liberty movement base really is.
I mean, for him to go out there and to threaten to primary Thomas Massey, who's arguably the most principled man in Capitol Hill.
I mean, he's a libertarian-leaning conservative.
He sticks to his guns.
He doesn't care about the status quo.
And for Trump to say, well, you know what, Thomas Massey, I'm going to back your primary challenger because you're going against the big beautiful bill when a certain percentage of his base voted for Trump because he promised to actually try to move the government towards a more fiscally conservative direction.
And to see them do the opposite in so many fronts has just been nailed in the coffin for a large part of his base.
And I get what Josiah is trying to do.
It's this argument of, well, if you vote for libertarians, you're going to get the Democrats.
And my argument is, well, number one, if we continue or other people continue to support Republicans, they're essentially getting Democratic policy.
So really at the end of the day, what's the difference?
Now, to an important point is what is a Libertarian Party's chance of actually winning an election?
And, you know, number one is we've mostly been successful at the local level.
You know, the federal level is more of a search and rescue campaign for us, but it does give us an opportunity to get out there, put out a principled candidate that actually speaks to a message that resonates with a lot of libertarians because we want to vote for somebody who represents us, not the lesser of two evils.
And if that candidate has a chance to get free, four or 5% of the vote, not only does it get us minor party status at 5%, we get federal fund matching and stuff like that, which could help and actually help us secure ballot access in 50 states, which as an aside is going to be a big project for Elon Musk.
It's going to take multiple election cycles to actually get that ballot access.
But even just to get there and say, look, you know, that couple percentage of the vote that we get, that's enough to sway a presidential election one way or another.
So either a candidate's going to have to come in and start campaigning like a libertarian and actually having real concessions, moving the Overton window towards libertarianism, or just going to keep eating their lunch.
Even if it's 5%, that's enough to sway an election.
So, you know, our policies, our positions are very clear.
If the Republican Party is unable or unwilling to push those policies, we're going to get a lot more of those voters.
Two Ways Out00:13:34
And I mean, at the end of the day, I just, from a perspective of being very fair in the messaging from the libertarian side, when Trump does something good, but also being firm when he does something bad, you know, I applauded Doge.
I applauded certain efforts to turn down the heat in the war with Ukraine.
But I've just seen an about face on just about every topic.
And it's gotten to the point where it's almost ridiculous.
And I think for many people that are libertarian or even conservative leaning that supported Trump, the Epstein files is just the icing on the cake.
I think it's going to be something that a lot of his hardcore base just can't get through.
I just don't think it's the icing on the cake.
I think it's the cake.
Yeah.
I think that's where I'm analyzing.
And I think if you have, for example, Chief Trump, sir, I mean, he has it in his name.
I've seen it on the face and all that.
I think this is a key thing.
And so, Mike, I'll ask you the final question.
How I think that the thing now that everybody's looking at is what are the next steps?
Because everybody says the special prosecutors this and that.
I just see President Trump, you know, he called this the people who believe it stupid.
And what's interesting is nobody is defending, nobody's trying to do what they do in the past with Donald Trump where he says something and they, oh, no, he didn't like the both sides in Charlottesville, right?
And all that.
Like that, that whole, no, he meant this or no, he didn't mean this.
He meant that.
Like this one, everybody's like in concurrence and in agreement.
And even President Trump's like, yeah, I called my base stupid.
Deal with it.
Mike, from a political perspective, somebody who's been involved in politics with the Democratic Party and all that, do you think that's something that might be considered political suicide?
Or do you think this is going to blow over?
And I think that's kind of what Josiah says.
Like, look, in six months from now, we're not going to be talking about this.
We'll be talking about something else, something else, something else.
How long lasting is this Epstein file and the reaction of the Trump administration and president directly?
Can this last to 2026 and 2028?
Or are we talking about weeks or months at most?
This is the first time in Trump's political career, if you look at the first term or the second term, where he couldn't snap his fingers and everybody come in line.
You look at every unpopular decision he ever made.
As soon as Trump said, this is what we're going to do, I need everybody on board.
We have senators, we have members of the House.
He called overnight.
He would change votes.
He killed the Lankford bill right there on the floor right before they would vote for it, which would dramatically have changed immigration and would have given the Democrats a win.
He specifically said, don't give the Democrats a win, kill that bill.
It was a Republican bill, dead, squashed.
This is the first time where people have actually said, you know what?
I'm not just going to fall in line this time.
And it is because it was built on such a deep, thoughtful theatric lie.
You can't, it's just as Pizzagate on steroids.
You can't walk around saying there's these files and all of these people are in it and it's on my desk and I'm going to release it.
You can't, and then you have these empty binders.
You can't have, I know he's a showman and people appreciate the fact that he was on The Apprentice, but you can't have a cliffhanger here.
This is a country.
This is America.
These are people.
They have feelings.
They have emotions.
People that worked on my campaign have worked, knocked on thousands of doors.
These people put their hearts into what they're doing.
You can't treat them like an audience.
And this, I think, this is one play where he's not going to sell very many tickets.
Yeah, man.
I think of all the schisms that have come to the Trump administration, this is the most major, whether it's the one with Musk, whether it's the big beautiful bill where he's out there dragging Massey for opposing it.
And hey, by the way, I endorse Lindsey Graham no matter what.
You know, the bombing of Iran.
You saw a split within his base on all these things.
Jason actually did a great job of laying a lot of it out yesterday, brother.
You did.
I think this is the biggest impediment to maintaining that coalition that support him.
I don't think it's going to go away.
In fact, I only think that there's two ways in which this could go away and not affect Trump in the midterms.
One, he abolishes the IRS tomorrow.
Two, he bombs another country tomorrow.
I prefer the former rather than the latter, but that's the only two ways this.
Okay, which country?
You know what, Dave, you said it.
What country is he bombing?
Well, it's going to be Iran.
Come on.
He's taking the John McCain line.
He's already done it.
There's precedent here.
Mexico, maybe?
Cartel?
Mexico cartels.
Okay, so let me ask this question to the others: the same one of like, is this long-lasting split, short-term?
Talk about that, and that's how we'll end this.
Grant, what do you think?
Short-term, long-term split?
What do you say?
I mean, I hope it's short-term.
I'm someone who leans libertarian.
I'm not active in the party.
I supported Trump in 2024, but it's for the reasons that he was saying that he wanted to end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours.
I mean, what's the whole point of draining the swamp if you're not going to drain the swamp?
So, but I think libertarians can use their capital.
It's got to be strategic.
Even if it is 1% or 2%, that makes a difference in Wisconsin.
That makes a difference in Michigan.
That makes a difference in Pennsylvania.
So hopefully this is short-lasting.
I mean, but that's the only way that libertarians can make our voices heard is, I guess, take to X.
And that's the whole point of the whole point of freeing the bird, right?
That's all we can do is make our voices heard.
Trump's going to have his base, and the Republicans are going to have their base, and the Democrats are going to have their base, right?
They're all going to have their 48, 49%.
Who's going to get that other one or 2%?
And it wasn't just libertarians, like in Michigan.
There was a lot of Arab and Muslims that voted for Trump in Michigan because they thought, hey, this guy was going to end the Israel-Gaza conflict.
So, I mean, it's just, it's not smart.
It's not smart politically for Trump.
Again, I'll finish by what I said at the very beginning.
It's not smart politically for Trump to be in this like boomer fox news bubble.
It's just not.
I mean, it might be popular with Mark Levin.
It might be popular with Sean Hannity.
It might be popular with Lutnick, right?
It might be popular with a lot of people that are advising him in the White House, but it's not popular among independents and libertarians.
Yeah, you're going to have your MAGA base, but if you want to have that coalition, RFK, libertarians, independents, Muslim Americans, even Mexican male Americans, Trump was winning Star County, Texas, a border county up against Mexico.
You can't be bombing Iran, continuing the war in Ukraine, not delivering through on your promises.
Ben, let me ask you the same question.
Is this Epstein file reaction, messaging, whatever you want to call it, a short term or could be a major split with MAGA?
Like, is this the biggest political crisis within for President Trump?
I don't know if it's going to be the biggest, but this is definitely a long-term split.
And I think it's this is good.
It plays into the hand of libertarians a lot because people are going to start to realize that, you know, obviously they need to stop worshiping their political gods.
No matter who you vote for, you elect President Benjamin Netanyahu.
And then it also helps us because we figure out ways to decentralize everything, build alternative systems, whether it be cryptocurrency, agorism, self-defense.
But the biggest thing for me is I'm hoping it drives more people to New Hampshire, the freest state in the country, where we have over 25% of the state house here elected self-proclaimed libertarians.
The head of the state house is an anarchist, voluntarist, and we are abolishing national federal gun laws.
We are eliminating taxes, opening, you know, like promoting school choice.
And I'm hoping that this long-term split just drives people to New Hampshire.
And, you know, we can start putting New Hampshire first instead of America first.
That's what I think.
So, Jason, I'll ask that question for you.
I'll give you the last opportunity.
What do you think?
You know, I think that the rift is there.
It's going to stay.
But once you see this special counsel thing rolling, I think that the hopium is going to come back.
And he has a good chance if they do it the right way and start burning the right dead people to at least get half to three quarters back.
I don't know if he gets everybody back because there are a lot of people that are concerned with those other issues peripherally.
We talked about the wars in the Middle East, obviously Ukraine, Russia, et cetera.
But at the same time, one thing this Trump administration has done, it has been savvy to listening to that base.
And this base is crying out loud and a lot of the influencer class.
And that seems to be what weighs big with this administration.
So, yeah, I think in the next couple of weeks, we're going to see the movements and they're going to try to get it back because the rift is too big, Stefano.
Well, with that, I do want to thank Mike for being, I guess, like, and Josiah, like my non, my only non-two libertarians here.
I'm a constitutionalist, bro.
I don't even, that whole volunteerism thing, I don't believe in that, Johnny nonsense either.
Somebody's always going to want to bang your wife.
I mean, come on.
You know, I just, it's just, this is a libertarian space.
I joke it all the time.
I'm going to say it again.
I've never seen more libertarians in a political discussion than in Mario's faces.
But again, look, I say this every time.
I'll say it again.
I assure you, everybody who's listening, there's going to be more Jeffrey Epstein.
This is not going away.
This is a, I think, you know, I understand Josiah's perspective and I do believe in his perspective from the GOP saying, hey, got to pick your choice, man.
But if you don't support the GOP, the Dents control everything.
And he does have a valid point in that.
But regardless, this is something, a major political thing.
And I think this is a different political crisis than others, at least from President Trump's perspective, because this is something that the crisis is coming from his base.
This isn't something imposed on him because of a DOJ prosecutor, an FBI director, the media, a story from the New York Times, none of that, that he can pivot and flow away for somebody else.
This was Pam Bondi, who released a memo that Axios got.
And the first reaction from everybody is this is fake.
And even remember, when the Axios link wasn't working, oh, they took it down, they took down the story.
And then Pam Bondi confirmed it.
And then the crisis happened.
And this is where I think it's an interesting aspect since President Trump went down his escalators announcing his candidacy in 2015, all the way to now.
This is the first time really the crisis is happening within his base.
And I think this is a difference.
The question is, how is Trump going to answer that and address it and manage it?
And then the overarching aspect of that, that goes to a bigger issue in Americans, at least in the sense of what Americans believe in, is in this justice system, this tier two justice system.
Because maybe there isn't a list.
Maybe there isn't.
For whatever reasons, maybe there is.
But regardless, it breaks at the heart of trust in the federal government.
And that's what Trump won on, is to gain the trust back.
And the people who believed in him the most are feeling betrayed.
And so the question always goes, what about the victims of this?
And how do we go forward from now?
So again, I want to thank everybody who joined us.
I know we had a couple who couldn't make it the full length, but I want to appreciate all my speakers for joining us.
So all my listeners, make sure you follow them.
Follow the ones who are no longer here that spoke with us.
And also make sure you follow Mario's X page and stay tuned for the next live stream space we might have.
But I promise you.
Can I still three seconds?
Oh, you got breaking news?
Sort of not breaking news.
I think just one silver lining about this, this small fracture, this gives people like myself and Jason the opportunity to find the things that we see together, the things that we agree on.
And I don't know, maybe form a different kind of coalition.
You know what?
That is something I would say.
I would even say, look, you know, even Chief Trumpster, who I've been in a lot of debates with him, who's been very much a MAGA voice on X and very good, he's upset about it.
And I don't think it's fair to, and I think that's the important thing.
And I would hope President Trump, if you're listening, listen to your base.
Don't, if not, look what happened to Kamala Harris in 2024.
The base was screaming Israel-Gaza and the war.
They were screaming it to the Biden administration.
They didn't do it.
They lost their coalition.
That was a huge reason why they lost their Democratic coalition in Michigan.
They lost Michigan in the Arab vote, which was a key component of Biden's coalition.
They lost it.
You know, you understand there's policies and there's ways that you want to fight and win elections and govern, but at some point, you do have to listen and you have to make sure you're moving things forward.
But with that, thank you everybody for another phenomenal conversation.
And I'll see you next time.
All right, folks.
Now that's the end of the debate, but we're going to transition into this segment from Invisible Empire on really how this network has been operating and quite frankly, evading the type of scrutiny we're trying to bring here.
Iran-Contra Conspiracy00:04:25
This network disguises itself, remaining in the shadows.
Despite the elite utilizing Brene's methods, in conjunction with the military industrial complex they had erected, a modern arm of this organization was exposed in what came to be known as the Iran-Contra scandal.
Essentially, black operations were not only caught dealing arms illegally and supporting South American dictators, but also smuggling drugs into the United States.
Iran-Contra was really the merging of two different programs.
The first one was support for the Contras, who were, let's face it, a force of terrorists in Nicaragua trying to overthrow the Sandinista government.
They were being secretly supported by the CIA.
And at the bottom of the whole thing was drugs.
Iran-Contra was openly exposed by massive network coverage.
How was it that in three years, a network Washington set up to run arms to the Contras wound up running cocaine into this country for the most vicious drug cartel in the world?
At the same time, we were supposed to be fighting a war against drugs.
But by the same token, I also smuggle my share of weapons in exchange for those illegal substances.
With the full knowledge and assistance of both the DEA and CIA.
Betzner says that in 1983, he flew weapons from Florida to El Salvador and drugs from Colombia to the Bahamas on the way back.
In 1984, he says, he flew twice from Florida to Costa Rica and back.
We could bring back our own cargo.
They would arrange it.
Or we could bring back their cargo without ever having to worry about interception, arrest, anything like this, that everything was taken care of.
What kind of cargo were you talking about?
Drugs.
Tolliver says he had two meetings with this man, CIA veteran Rafael Quintero.
Then in March of 1986, he says he flew 14 tons of weapons down to Honduras to this Contra resupply base set up by the CIA.
We take off from Tucus Galva, Honduras, and we leave.
Two?
South Florida.
Where in South Florida?
We landed at Homestead.
Homestead?
Air Force Base.
This is the plane Tolliver says he used.
The plane traces to a company that had a State Department contract to fly humanitarian supplies to the Contras.
In addition to that, three dozen sources confirm the basic scheme.
We can now report that long before that operation began, there was another operation to provide guns for the countries, which was also against the law.
In this operation, Americans and Israelis provided arms to the countries, and then the same network smuggled drugs into the United States.
The operation was launched in spring of 1983 at Washington's request with at least $20 million of Israeli government money, later reimbursed, we're told, from U.S. covert operations funds.
For about five years, people were flying arms into Iran, and most of them came from Israel.
The Israelis purchased the weapons from Poland and Czechoslovakia and began shipping them secretly from Yugoslavia to Bolivia and then to Panama.
The Israeli liaison man there, this man, Michael Harari, until recently, a close aide to Panama's strongman, General Manuel Noriega.
You'd bring the ship into Colombia, you would load drugs aboard it, and you would bring those drugs back to Panama with you.
But bringing that stuff into the United States, that was something else.
I've never been so thoroughly disgusted with myself in my life.
This network would also be involved in the October surprise.
We really can't understand that unless we understand the so-called October surprise in the 1980 election, which is, I think, unquestionably Republicans, including William Casey, who later became Reagan's head of the CIA, negotiated with the Iranians for them not to release the hostages which were being held in Iran to Carter,
but to wait until the Carter was defeated and the Republicans were in.
That is what actually happened, that the hostages were only released on the day that Carter left office and Reagan came in.
Barry Seal's Shadow00:04:24
Unbelievably, this same network would even be linked to the BCCI banking scandal by journalist Danny Casilero.
Casilero was probing a conspiracy he called the Octopus, which involved the Iranian hostage crisis, the Iran-Contra affair, with, believe it or not, all funds channeled through BCCI, the international bank charged with everything from money laundering to fraud.
BCCI, it's a shadowy international bank linked to terrorists, drug runners, and dictators.
Little was known about BCCI until six of its top officers were arrested in Tampa in October of 1988 on charges of laundering drug money for Colombian cocaine bosses.
The BCCI men were convicted, and the bank itself pleaded guilty.
But for some reason, the bank was allowed to continue to operate all over the world.
There are indications that some of the reluctance to prosecute this bank stemmed from the favors it did, for the favors it did for intelligence services everywhere.
Too many secrets of too many countries, too many prominent people, too many hands-on, and that makes it desirable that this entire affair be forgotten.
It began to become clear that the global traffic of drugs were funding violent dictators, rigging elections, supporting the arms trade, and enforcing the assassination of anyone who got in the way.
Casilero was found dead for his efforts in exposing this network.
His death, of course, ruled a suicide.
He was meeting a source in West Virginia.
He was about to discover all.
Instead, his body was discovered in a hotel room with 12 slashes in his wrist.
But when the local authorities ruled it suicide, the family said, no way.
The housekeeper had taken calls threatening his life.
And I pick it up telephone, I say hello, and he say to me, you send the bitches debt.
Casalero would not be the only person involved in the scandal to wind up in a casket.
Meet Barry Seal.
At first, the media portrayed Seale as a drug dealer gone good, who was assassinated by the Colombian mafia.
Authorities believe last night's machine gun killing of top drug informant Barry Seale was ordered by drug bosses in Medellin, Colombia, who sent five men to Baton Rouge to kill Seal.
Sam Dalton was the lawyer that represented the Colombian hitmen convicted of his assassination.
We were trying to subpoena the CIA because we felt like they had documents, exhibits, and evidence that would indicate complicity in Seale's assassination.
When they were able to gain access of Barry Seale's trunk the night of the murder, the personal phone number of none other than George H.W. Bush was present.
Lewis Unglesby, the former attorney for Mr. Seale, also confirms that he once called the office of the vice president after Seale had given him the number.
You see, the Black Ops drug smuggling operation had not yet been exposed, and intelligence couldn't take any chances.
It was later revealed that Seal was involved in smuggling cocaine into MENA, Arkansas, while Bill Clinton sat as governor.
1983, Ronald Reagan was president, Bill Clinton was governor, and little MENA, Arkansas changed from a quiet town to a center for drug smuggling and reported contra support activity.
In the middle of it all, this man, admitted dope smuggler Barry Seal.
Arkansas state trooper Russell Welch investigated Seale's organization.
Each trip would have 250 to 350 pounds of cocaine.
According to the London Telegraph, Arkansas state trooper Larry Patterson testified under oath that he and his officers discussed repeatedly in Clinton's presence the large quantities of drugs being flown into MENA airport, large quantities of money, large quantities of guns.
Hot Springs police officers would also record Roger Clinton, Bill's brother, during a cocaine transaction stating, gotta get some for my brother.
He's got a nose like a vacuum cleaner.
There was also a large amount of money laundering going on in MENA.
Former IRS agent William Duncan traced some of SEAL's drug profits laundered through MENA banks.
We had direct testimony from people who were involved in the money laundering operation.
We had testimony from people at banks who observed the transactions.
Direct Testimony Revealed00:02:49
What happened when you tried to make this case before a grand jury?
I was never asked to present the evidence to a grand jury, ever.
This very same network used BCCI to fund the Afghani rebels.
The deputy director of the CIA, Richard Kerr, said late today that the CIA did use the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, BCCI, to support CIA activities overseas.
Most people still believe that the Soviets had maliciously invaded Afghanistan in order to spread their communist agenda.
The al-Qaeda was essentially a kind of a byproduct of Brzezinski's campaign to embarrass the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.
They weren't in Afghanistan at that time.
Brzezinski boasted later that he was responsible for drawing them into Afghanistan.
And he did this extraordinary interview with Le Nouvelle Observateur in France.
And they said, but aren't you worried that you've created this whole new force of al-Qaeda?
And he said, oh, what's more important?
A few crazed Islamists or the fall of the Berlin Wall.
And they said, but you know, is there no danger?
Aren't they dangerous?
And he said, nonsense.
He said, oh, this is 1998.
So I consider, I knew Brzezinski at McGill University.
We were students together and took very small classes together.
And in some ways, he's bright, and in some ways, he's kind of nuts.
And he had the kind of nuttiness that made him attractive to the Rockefellers.
Bin Laden and his network were actually funded by BCCI through U.S. covert operations.
Well, the reason I bring it up, if you've ever heard any of our call-in shows, you know that we have people that think about the conspiracy theories of people like you.
You would be a poster child for these people because you have served on the board of the Council on Foreign Relations.
You started, helped start the trilateral commission, and you've been to the Bilderberger group.
Are people too close in this world?
People in business too close to the governments?
Well, you know, there is such a thing as insidious influence.
And the question is, how does it operate?
Does it involve bribery?
And does it involve some sort of psychological domination of individuals?
I don't believe in this notion of some sort of secret societies controlling people.
Over-The-Table Arrangements00:01:44
But of course, in the political system, there are sort of over-the-table and under-the-table arrangements.
Arrangements that involve ruthless, illegal, and immoral activities in order to dominate humanity.
Despite all of the evidence that has just been presented, this network would fall down the memory hole, even though 14 convictions were made in the Iran-Contra scandal.
The continued cover-up would be made possible by George H.W. Bush.
These documents that came forward in the North trial clearly reveal the involvement of the vice president to a greater degree, I think, than he has acknowledged heretofore.
This, of course, did not stop him from pardoning those involved during the twilight of his presidency.
Some new reverberations today to President Bush's Christmas Eve surprise, the pardoning of former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger and several others in connection with the Iran-Contra allegations.
Well, now the special prosecutor says it's the president who needs to explain some things.
The real issue is why the notes weren't produced five years ago when the congressional investigation and the independent counsel's investigation had requested them.
Because high-level political officials scrambled to limit the investigation and establish plausible deniability for the upper echelons of the network, including Bush himself.
So who is this guy?
And how did he come to power?
And that is going to wrap the show up, everybody.
You know the drill.
It is not about left or right, it is always about right and wrong.
I hope you check out the rest of that documentary, Invisible Empire: A New World Order to Find, among the rest of my documentaries, which are free.