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The discussion on Jeffrey Epstein after the closure of everything Epstein over on the Mario Nafal broadcast, got fierce.
This is part two.
Buckle up and get ready to make sense of the madness.
I just have to jump in.
I just want to make it abundantly clear.
There has been no concrete evidence besides a secondhand comment on a report from the, but I don't remember what news organization was said that said, oh, you got to let him go because he has intelligence.
That's never been confirmed.
No investigation has indicated that he has.
There's been resounding denial.
And this idea, I just, this is just something that I think when people talk about intelligence, like they like to just, oh, it's CIA and Mossad and MI6 and G DGSE.
You can say that.
Have you ever read One Nation under Blackmail, Volume 1 and 2?
Have you ever read One Nation under Blackmail, Volume 1 and 2?
Because there's a lot of evidence in there.
Yes, I have.
Very, very significant evidence.
I help research.
I mean, I mean, I just have masses of valid evidence and it points exactly at intelligence.
Every single bit.
Thousands of sources point at intelligence.
Okay.
Tens of thousands.
You say nothing.
I say tens of thousands.
I just have to remind people that, and if, and if that's the case, well, we haven't seen enough.
The cover-up is because of the CIA.
That's something interesting.
There's been no reporting.
And two, this idea that every single, although there's always cooperation stuff, when you're talking about human intelligence, sources are the most protective thing, and you do not divulge that.
And this idea that somehow he's going to be where he's going to be a CIA asset, but he's also going to be.
So he, to be frank, if this is true, you can say that.
You could be, okay, then either every single intelligence agency is absolutely incompetent to the max to a degree that, and by the way, this is this guy wasn't an unknown.
Dude, they're evil.
They're not.
Yeah, they're not incompetent.
He's working for them.
Like evil.
And that itself is a beautiful thing.
Do you realize Israel, like when you actually, like, yes, there's deep level intelligence cooperation between 1967, Israel and the West.
I really want to go to this point.
I think people want to grandiose issues when they're talking about a lot of these sources and how this works.
And this idea that one man who was well known, who did not hide, who did not hide, right, was an intelligence asset for the CIA, for the Mossad, for MI6.
Oh, nobody.
Nobody has hid anything in plain sight.
Why don't we just global history?
So, brother, by the way, I have a horse that I would like to give you as a lovely gift, sir.
Why?
And why not?
Let's expand the list.
Why don't we add the Chinese MSS?
Why don't we add the Russian FSB and SVR?
Why don't we add the South African intelligence?
If I can.
Come on.
Hold on one second.
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
The reason I'm not connecting those.
Do you know he flew to Russia?
Do you know the reason why the reason I'm not connecting to seven, eight, nine, ten other intelligence agencies is because I don't have evidence for that.
The ones that I'm citing, I do have evidence for.
So I'm not just making this stuff up.
And let me just point out real quick, because this is really important.
After Epstein had already been convicted in the mid-2000s and he got a sweetheart deal in which he actually got to leave jail 12 hours a day to go to work.
After that, from 2013 to 2017, Ehud Barak, the former prime minister of Israel, visits him 35 times, documented.
No, excuse me, 36 times.
He's a 35-year member of the IDF.
He's a former prime minister and he's a member of the elite Syriat Matkal unit, a special forces group known for intelligence gathering and covert operations.
Where did Ehud Omart end up after his prime ministership?
Where did he end up?
You're talking about Olmert.
I'm talking about Barack.
Why are you talking about Omert?
Oh, I'm sorry.
I thought you said Olmert.
So you're let me just address what he said about let me just counter this for a second.
Let's okay, again, you're going back to this point.
No, I want you to answer my question.
Why would the prime minister meet with him 36 times?
I would real quick with him.
And by the way, he denied anything because he was intelligent.
He was photographed going into Epstein's home in New York, so he was a proven liar who claimed he didn't have connections with him and wasn't meeting with Epstein in his home.
And then a picture surfaced, and I think it came out in the dealing map.
Let me just address it.
Can I just address the idea you can't be a multiple intelligence agent?
Okay, let me just say this.
There is a guy that it's not debated anymore that was in multiple intelligence agencies, also happened to be Ghelaine Maxwell's father.
Now, at the time he was originally outed as Mossad, it was by Seymour Hirsch.
Okay, they sued Seymour Hirsch.
Seymour won in court.
They had to print retractions.
After his death, okay, it came out: hey, wait a minute, it wasn't just the Mossad.
It was MI6.
Now, let's go one step further.
Just in the last 18 months, and look, I'm not an expert on anything, but the BBC just ran a special how he was also working with Russian intelligence.
We have two confirmed, and now we have allegations of a third from Ghelain Maxwell's father.
Let me give you another network.
We were talking to Ron Contra, okay, when they went into that New York home.
What did they find?
They found a false identity and passport for Epstein for him to be in the Middle East in Saudi Arabia.
A lot of people don't understand how Ron Contra worked, but guess what?
It was the Israelis that bought those weapons from Czechoslovakia and other Eastern European nations for the plausible deniability factor through Mark Rich and others.
They shipped them down to the Sandinistas, and then for the payback, we would ship up the drugs and then pay them back in a loop.
So it was, it's been very, very interconnected, not just in that regard, but you could also get into networks like British intelligence post-World War II with the Pakistani ISI and the CIA.
That's how it works.
They do work for multiple intelligence agencies at some level and multiple interests.
So, again, if people want documentation on that, it is abundant.
And I would encourage people, again, to check out the documentation in the books that Johnny just talked about because, you know, they're this thick and they're all sourced.
And it paints, again, that picture that this person not only had his hands in the geopolitical arena, not only in the arms industry, but also the transhuman one.
And again, we'll show our work.
So we'll bring it back a little bit so you can read it.
Epstein reportedly hoped to develop super race of humans with his DNA.
Lizard People Conspiracy00:10:00
And he is not shy about this.
Look, I'm waiting for Bannon.
I don't know if he's ever going to release it.
You know, I don't know, Steve, but he's got those interviews.
Let's hear Epstein in his own words.
And I bet you we'll get some insights that we never thought we did.
The source material is out there, folks.
The idea it's not, and the documents aren't there, is absurd.
It is very, I mean, people like Glenn Dubin are not only named in the documents, but they're named in regards to a teenage girl waking up on an island she wasn't on with her identification taken away.
You're messing with billionaires and people that have literally been in nepotistic generational power for sometimes hundreds, if not thousands of years, when you're talking about the Duke of Essex.
We often forget in 2025, we still have royalty and those people actually have power.
Okay, so we got to stop being children.
That's the whole thing.
I don't believe in Santa Claus.
I don't like being lied to.
And I think that the people that just are on the peripheral, they're so upset because they've just got a snifter of the lies.
It's as rotten as hell.
All I'm going to say is this point.
It's like, oh, here's a guy who did all this because he was an Israeli prime minister.
He did it all.
Inherently, that means in every capacity that he works is he's an intelligence operative.
And that's just, that is causation, not correlation.
Just because somebody, George H.W. Bush, used to be the head of this.
He was the head of this.
He was a CIA director.
Does that mean every single thing he did and every person?
Because then by that logic, I can go on the list of everybody that George H.W. Bush.
That's an intelligence asset.
But you're strawmanning.
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Let me just, that's all I want to say because I don't want to hug the mic.
We've already been going an hour.
No, I know.
I know.
I know, but you're kind of strawmanning my position.
What I'm saying is, do you not find it odd that this guy with that history, the intelligence history, 35 years in the IDF, Prime Minister?
But he goes.
He's a rich man who's a pervert.
That's the okay.
Okay, so he's a pedophile that was in Israeli intelligence.
That's what we're saying.
That's the guy.
Ehu Barak went on to work for a unit 8,200 company called Carbon.
Which, wait, listen, listen.
Will you listen?
Just shush for a second and listen.
Johnny, you've been going on a long time with the electoral.
Peter Thiel, listen.
Peter Thiel, I'm being very quick.
No, no, no, no.
We've got to let other people speak.
Okay, you're going to censor me.
Okay, that's fine.
No, we're not going to censor you.
Okay, you want to listen?
I'll say in 10 seconds.
Ehu Barak was working for a unit 8,200 company.
He was invested by Jeffrey Epstein, Peter Thiel, Nicole Junckerman, and more.
And that was afterwards, 2017 onwards.
It was a terribly, terribly linked Mossad company.
Yes, he's Mossad.
Now we got to go to the rest of the speakers.
Grant, go ahead.
Okay, I mean, fascinating stuff.
Lots of details, but like, let's go to the big picture here.
Okay.
Today's news means two things.
There's only two alternatives.
Okay.
One, there's some sort of ridiculously bad conspiracy and Donald Trump is involved in it.
Or two, there is not.
And Donald Trump is an incredibly duplicitist to the point of lying to his most hardcore supporters on something of their most highest interest.
He doesn't care.
Okay.
He's either a liar or he's in on it.
And I'm going to tell you right now, my vote is for the first one, but you can't rule out the second one.
That he's not, he could be in on it.
But definitely, I think this is a case of a very, very big lie, a very big manipulation.
And, you know, I think if people are like their heads spinning, where do I land with this?
It's definitely we've been lied to.
That's just 100%.
You can't deny it.
We got the binders.
We got the quotes.
And they tried it today.
They tried it in the White House, in the press briefing room.
Today, Fox News said, hey, she said she was reviewing this.
Where'd it go?
Oh, no, no, no.
She didn't review that.
Well, either tremendously big lies or tremendously involved.
I'll let you guys debate the final points.
Thanks.
I want you to believe that Epstein took thousands of hours of himself with victims and there's nobody else on those tapes.
Nobody wait, Jason.
Great point about Alan Derschowitz.
I think he's the key man that everybody should be looking at next.
He was involved in everything, Trump and Epstein.
But to your point, okay, so this is why I think it's a lie because I think Clinton, I know your question, but this is why I think it's a lie, right?
Because there's the idea of whatever.
Look, like if one thing, Clinton, you've been in these episodes before with the Trump-Elon feud, the richest man who spent $300 million.
And Trump, in a moment of whiff of unloyalty, he pushed him out the side and he didn't care, right?
And I think what I'm thinking, and Mike, I want to ask this question, right?
Because I think there is a political dimension to this, to Grant's point, that it's a lie, that it was a way for Trump to rile people up, specifically related to the 2024 election.
And this was a way for him to say, believe me, I'm going to release everything, even though all this happened during his first, the first administration, they leveraged this because of COVID.
They leveraged this because there was this increase in that.
I'm not saying the idea of conspiracy because it's crazy.
I'm just saying within the construct of there's various things that's going on.
He was able to manipulate that in a political sense.
Jeffrey Epstein was one of them.
It fit very well his narrative of this global elite, this cabal of pedophiles, and many aspects that fueled the QNON movement in Pizzagate.
He could grab that, use the Jeffrey Epstein in a way to say there's much more, but Biden is hiding it from you.
Re-elect me and I'll bring it out.
And when Pam Bondi comes into office to the Attorney General, she's like, she had to play along for a little bit, but then there's going to some point where if you have Pam Bondi, Kash Patel, and Don Bargino, three of the people that were like the most anti-establishment possible, they're all saying, sorry, people, there's nothing here.
But Mike, I mean, there was a political reasoning why they wanted to hype it up.
And now it's backfiring on them that I think, as Clint alluded to.
But Mike, there is a political reason why they wanted to hype this.
And now that their office, they're kind of caught with the lie.
Absolutely a political reason why they wanted to hype this.
And it's very unfortunate because all of the panelists here are very passionate and they're very well read into this.
And Trump knows this.
If he's not one thing, he's very good at building a coalition and preying on people's vulnerabilities and their fears.
You have the perfect person in Jeffrey Epstein.
He had a lot of stuff going on.
Let's say that each one of our panelists were absolutely correct, that he worked for multiple intelligence agencies.
He had his hand in a lot of different cookie jars.
All right.
That is a total separate, totally separate, different issue than him being this horrible, terrible pedophile.
But because a certain wing of a certain party has amped up pedophilia and lizard people and all this for a very long time, Trump is very good at cliffhangers.
You have to remember this guy's a television producer, right?
So let's just keep fishing.
Let's just keep throwing things out.
Let's just keep rallying up our base.
That's saying there's something there.
He knew very well that there was nothing there, but he knew he had the perfect Patsy.
You can say that Jeffrey Epstein was a lot of different things because he probably was.
But the reason why the FBI doesn't have all the history of everything that he was, because if what you guys are saying is true, that he worked for all of these multiple intelligence agencies all over the world, they don't always share information.
So maybe the FBI really has turned over everything that they have.
Doesn't mean that he doesn't do all these other things, but those other things that he has going on aren't related to his sex trafficking case either.
Let me jump in here for a second, really briefly.
I'm not going to go too into the rabbit hole, but I got to just say this.
There's one other case that I reported on that had these big violations of the Crime Victims Rights Act.
And it was a man who used to sell the Donald Trump name.
His name was Felix Seder.
He worked for the FBI as an informant, but always claimed that he was a CIA informant.
And if there's ever another case that I've seen that shares the same, you know, the same mystery and the same procedural thing happening at the same time, it was Felix Seder.
And it's, you know, he keeps claiming he worked for the CIA.
Nobody but FBI agents has ever said he did anything.
So, I mean, this is not something that's never happened before.
I think that that's just an important point.
You know, I just want to address something because I haven't heard the lizard people thing brought up in such a serious topic for years.
It's usually the flat earth thing that I get these days.
The lizard people are serious people, Jason.
Let's not.
Let's just.
They've been seen on airplanes.
I just want people to know that what I do is not about Democrat or Republican.
You know, he was just talking about that side of the aisle.
Dennis Hassert, who at the time was the longest-serving speaker of the House, was labeled by a judge as a serial child molester.
This is somebody that was molesting kids all the way back when he was a gym teacher and not only got to the heights of the Senate, but became the Speaker of the House.
That should let everybody know that a lot of these people are compromised.
By the way, he got sentenced to, I think it was 18 months, and I think he did 13 because he was an old man in a wheelchair.
Lizard People & Politics00:03:27
That's how we do things in this country.
Okay.
So I do want to agree with the host there.
He's structuring a Patriot Act violation for hiding his hush money payments.
I think there's a big difference, guys, than someone leaning into something politically and using it, then there's nothing there and they know it.
Okay.
Because he obviously knew just from being in the circles with Epstein, certain things were going on.
You know, we mentioned the Marijuana incident.
That is Virginia Guffray Roberts.
People have to understand for Virginia Guffray Roberts to get out of that situation, she had worked herself up into the apex of that women's network that I mentioned, the Groffs, the Marcinkovas, the Kalins, and decided to jump ship when she was in another country.
Okay, like that takes a lot.
And I would also say this: when you look at her documentation, there's a reason that Dershowitz was able to win in court against her when he sued her because she did some shady things.
And just to point out that I am not the ultra conspiracy guy, I've actually looked at the evidence of Virginia Guffray Roberts and the quote-unquote suicide, and I lean towards suicide.
I don't know that anything nefarious actually happened there other than it seemed like she faked being in a hospital in a minor car accident just before she had lost custody of her kids.
She had been serial abused by this man and others.
And I believe all the money in the world doesn't really heal that wound if you can't be with your family.
And that probably is the explanation there.
And, you know, and I've seen people go off on jags and rails.
I stick to the facts.
While I was doing this show, the man that actually got the initial black book, and I could tell you that story, published in Gawker, contacted me.
We're going to be doing a whole show with Nick Bryant on this subject.
And I'll pass the torch because there are so many of us.
But I promise you all, there are a lot of their theirs, but we haven't had any high-level accountability in this country since Iran-Contra.
And those were slaps on the wrist.
And Oliver North, who they made the head of it, what did he get?
He got book deals and TV shows.
That's how you curtail illegal arms dealing.
You make somebody into a celebrity millionaire.
And then he became the president of the NRA.
Let me, let me.
Well, I don't know if you're an arms dealer.
You want to be the president.
And by the way, if you look at who's the president today, I've been reporting on him for the last couple of weeks.
No more conspiracy.
We're not going to be able to do that.
Not even more conspiracy directions.
These are court reports.
These are court reports.
Court settlements, court cases.
Um, just released it actually.
Uh, 2020 election deniers lose two significant settlements.
You guys can check it out at newsletter.grantstern.com.
Uh, not settlements, two significant uh appeals.
Appeals.
So, so here's the deal, and I'm glad you brought up election denying.
I'm not talking about the election just so you know.
Um, but if we were to do a space about the election, if we were to do a space about COVID or the vaccines, if we were to do a space about JFK or a show about JFK, if we were to do a show about Epstein, I can find either way, it'd probably be you guys, but I'm sure I can find people like you guys that can give me names and evidence and pictures and books and documentation and all this stuff to show that all of these things either did or didn't happen.
Weaponized Informant00:03:33
Again, I'm going back to the fact that there are people watching that don't study this as much as you do.
So, what I've heard everybody talk about, and you've provided proof to support your theory.
Um, if Epstein was this single double triple agent, uh, FBI/slash Mossad slash MS, you know, whatever that uh, I'm the British intelligence, I'm saying MS. Wrong M wrong MI6.
MI6, thank you.
I'm like, he's not a Brango Garcia.
Now, that guy's in a couple of intelligence agencies, maybe two now, right?
So, but the idea is: if he's all the, if he's Jason Bourne, right?
Epstein's Jason Bourne.
Why is Epstein Jason Bourne?
And then, what was his mission besides just doing horrible things to children on his island?
And then, like, like, I think compromising files on the rich and powerful.
So, that was his mission.
So, what you're saying, Clint, is that he was weaponized by several intelligence apparatus to get dirt to basically to honeypot people of the richest and most powerful people to leverage against them for whatever political purpose.
Jason's chopping out the bit, so maybe he'll be able to.
Let me just give you an example.
I'll give you a document you can look at for that political, uh, that political influence.
So, I mentioned Les Wexner, okay?
Right, Les Wexner has something out there called the Wexner Report.
Again, these guys, as tight as it gets, the Manhattan mansion allegedly was sold to, well, given $10.
It was given to him for $10, that piece of property, okay, by this man.
Go look up the Wexner report.
Came out shortly after Saddam was toppled in Iraq, and it gives a propaganda list to keep us in the war there, including commercials with pregnant women, etc.
So much political influence for the United States to stay there because of his allegiance to Israel.
You know, Wexner is a big Israeli lobbyist in that political sphere.
And let me just say this again.
I mean, obviously, in the Middle East, we are very allied with Israel.
So, there is that political influence right there.
And by the way, that was a leaked report.
It wasn't for the public.
It's pretty outrageous.
Right.
But now, before I get too far into that, and again, I appreciate the research.
And Stefano's like on his way out.
He's like, he can't get front around it.
He's like, let's march out of the weeds here, guys.
Let's march out of the weeds.
Out of the weeds.
Bigger picture.
So what I'm saying is, all right.
And so, Clint, what you're saying is the reason why Epstein was empowered by whatever intelligence organization empowered him.
The goal was to have him take powerful people to his island, get him to do stupid things, and then use that as leverage to not just the not just the island, but also the New York City and the New Mexico and the other properties that he had.
But to his various locations.
But his summarizing Blackmail Inc., you know, like nobody, everybody's like, he worked for this guy, he worked for that guy, he worked for the other guy.
Maybe he just worked for himself, but did a lot of jobs for all these guys.
Kind of like Blackmail Inc.
So it certainly was.
Blackmail Inc. Gotta make some money somehow.
He was collecting all this damaging information on all these wealthy people.
I mean, I'm sure there's some sort of value to somebody with each piece of it.
All right, so let's pause there for a second because I'm trying to pull this out for people watching.
Okay, I don't want them to get buried in the weeds.
So, Epstein, his job, because he was an arms dealer, maybe that's where, and tell me if I'm following tracking because I've been here for the whole hour listening.
Blackmail Inc.: Collecting Damaging Info00:10:05
So, he starts as an arms dealer, gets to meet all these wealthy people and powerful people.
Somehow, he gets tied up in intelligence.
Then he starts this Honeypot Inc. company, essentially, with the goal of getting dirt on all of these folks.
And so, intelligence before an arms dealer.
Okay, you don't get into that arena.
Okay, so why was he initially then engaged by what made Epstein so special?
What made Jason Board Jr. so special that before he became an arms dealer, that he got approached by all of these?
Like, he wasn't a Navy SEAL, he wasn't Delta, he was just a dude who did appropriate things with women, and all these global intelligence agents were like, That's our guy.
Hey, listen, and so they made him an arms dealer.
Explain that.
His pathway to wealth started in the 80s, but I think Jason would actually do a better job of doing the origin story.
So, let's come on.
This is the end.
Can we get a when I ask questions?
When I ask these questions, I want very short answers because what I'm trying to do for anybody who's watched for the hour and 18 minutes that hasn't turned it off and like, this is over my head.
I'm trying to bring it all home for people who've watched and was like, Okay, what is my takeaway from this?
So, I have this really smart panel of people who've done a lot of research.
So, I'm trying to extract from you guys the takeaway.
Let's give Jason 30 seconds.
He'll give me the original.
I'll do it in 30 seconds.
Answer that question first.
Where did Minnie Jason Bourne come from?
So, if you watch the Jason Bourne series, where did he even come from?
Okay, it's kind of just like this random guy.
If you believe the Epstein story, and I don't know whether this is true or not, but they talk about the Dalton school and the possibility of Bill Barr's father bringing him in.
Now, just think about this who's recruited because he had some kind of special maybe he could talk well, maybe he had connections.
Again, you know, we've only heard his voice very little.
He's just a polymath or a really smart person again.
That is no kind of superpower that made him interesting.
He was very good at tax accounting.
That's that's for sure true.
All right, but if you look at somebody like Bill Barr, he's literally in the central intelligence agency before he's a lawyer and passes the bar exam.
So, they like to get you young.
Why was he so special?
Well, you could argue nepotism.
Okay, got it.
I think that they get people at a certain level, usually when they're trying to find themselves that have talents.
That's how they recruit for skull and bones.
Well, post-graduate.
In fact, if you want to watch another Matt Damon movie, no, we're not going there.
There's another Matt Damon movie all about that, by the way, in the power structure.
But I would just say that the idea that this guy surrounds himself with other billionaires of no, and then by the time he's arrested, those black books-I mean, Theo was connected.
You have payouts by the gankers.
I don't mean to cut you off.
So, the origin was he had, he possibly had a skill set, he was identified, he was brought to Bill Barr's dad teaching in an exclusive high school in New York City.
Got it, Harvard, Oxford, those type of places are rife with recruitment for intelligence assets.
So, he's recruited by Bill Barr.
And I'm not saying, so the idea is he's recruited by Bill Barr or his father, his father, his father, Bill Barr's father, Barr Sr.
And he gets recruited into arms dealing, where he makes these powerful connections around the world, right?
That somehow turns into Honeypot Inc.
Am I tracking?
I would say this is the banking industry.
He gets recruited into a lot of things in the 1980s.
I mean, yeah, no, it's intelligence, and then it's a, I mean, he leaves that, he gets recruited by intelligence, and then he gets into the financial industry, which is all mixed up with a gun running.
You have to have that financial institution to run billions of dollars.
We all know it, yes, we know it from his history.
That's where he was.
He was in the financial industry.
And through that, he then entered into New York in the 80s when it was wild.
Everybody was working for someone.
And these ballrooms of power were really small, but filled with people who went on to change our world.
And so these guys, he's one of those people who changed our world.
Okay, so I'm going to interrupt again just to make sure I'm pulling extracting for the brass tacks of it.
So Epstein becomes this very influential broker of sorts through various intelligence organizations and smoky rooms.
When you talk about the people in the smoky rooms, Epstein was the guy in the smoking room.
Okay.
Then from there, all of this stuff goes on for all these years, and then it's exposed and everybody starts freaking out.
So my question here becomes: he can't, you've already mentioned all the Oxford and all the institutions that become recruiting hotbeds for various intelligence agencies.
I don't, but I can't imagine Jeffrey Epstein.
And I'm not discounting anything you guys say.
I'm asking questions for people watching or trying to understand.
So I can't imagine Jeffrey Epstein is like some kind of like super spy.
He's probably has skills that other spies would have if he's a spy.
And as a result, how why is he so important compared to everybody else that could possibly have been involved with intelligence?
I mean, we look, go back to the JFK files and everything we learned.
There was all these intelligence organizations.
It was people working in Russia, working in Cuba, in Mexico, all these places where really our intelligence screwed up.
And if our intelligence community is that sloppy, I guess with Jeffrey Epstein being probably the weakest link, how come there's not more Epsteins?
David, that there's not is a mistake.
And also there is more Epsteins.
Yeah.
And also there's hundreds of victims that came out because he did it for so many decades.
The better question is to flip it on you.
How did he get away with doing this for so many decades if he wasn't connected to intelligence?
Isn't that fascinating?
Why did he get a sweetheart deal in the mid-2000s?
Why did he go on?
Here's my counter.
How did Bernie Madoff get away so you're until everything came collapsing?
Because they're rich.
Because, no, because it's a Ponzi scheme and people don't go broke until the very end.
That's a totally different scenario.
Right.
I mean, but that was the whole, but what my argument, I just, because you guys were laying out everything.
I'm sorry.
I'm like trying to follow along.
And it's like, it just, so he's like, and I'm just like, and what it is, it's like, yes, like everybody agrees.
It's like that.
That doesn't, like, to me personally.
And again, I'm not talking like I've done intelligence.
I goes, I was in the military, did MI, worked in a skiff, like did all that shit.
And you guys are laying everything out.
And I'm like, you guys all agree, like this makes perfect sense.
And I'm looking at this and I'm like, this doesn't make any sense.
Rather than what I think is the most now, did he have to do that?
Why does it not make sense?
Maybe he was.
The honeypot, the honeypot aspect of it makes 100%.
Did he work for intelligence or he did it for his own?
You got to look at the evidence.
That's fine.
But then the question becomes, the question becomes, going back, because we're going in, like it goes back to this bigger scheme, which is, and I'm going to go to Liz quickly for this, if I may, just to give her an opportunity, because I know we go.
If there is a list that has been said and everybody here saying it, maybe he was intelligent.
For argument's sake, I'll agree with you.
Okay, it's an intelligence.
It's not.
He did it for intelligence.
They had all this armed traffic or whatever you want to say.
Great.
So why then, if Trump was in office the first term, the first term, he would have known he's the president of the United States.
He would have known in the first time when he was in prison, indicted, he would have known this is a CIA asset.
He's a Mossad asset.
He's an MI, whatever.
We used him.
So, why in the hell if what all you're saying, why between 2020 to 2024, like Trump would run on this Epstein, if he wasn't acid and they knew.
It doesn't make any sense to me.
He would have shut up in the beginning.
But no, I do want to give Liz an opportunity and then I'll go to Stephen as well.
Go ahead, Liz, because I do want to give others.
I'm not trying to cut you off, Johnny.
I just want to give an opportunity to others to speak.
Yeah, well, I want to go back to, you know, earlier you guys were talking about why Epstein, like, why would they choose him to run this blackmail operation?
And, you know, from my standpoint, I would say that the man was so cunning.
He was so manipulative.
And he also was crazy charming and crazy charismatic.
And I will say, like, Johnny and I have been talking about Bradley Edwards' book.
And after I read that book, I got to tell you, one of the most shocking things I walked away from after reading that book that took me a few days to process was the fact that Bradley Edwards became obsessed with Jeffrey Epstein.
Jeffrey Epstein was basically running psychological operations on Bradley Edwards on top of seducing him.
And when I say seducing, I don't mean sexually, but he was seducing him, manipulating him, running psychological operations on him, disarming him.
These are tactics that intelligence agents, actually very skilled ones, highly trained ones, use.
I'm sure some of it comes to him naturally, and that's why he was chosen.
But these are tactics that highly trained, skilled, and crazy smart intelligence operators use.
If he was able to manipulate, seduce, and run these operations in a somewhat successful way against this man who is a very strong man.
He's a tough lawyer.
He's like, is a total badass, you know, himself.
If he was able to like seduce this guy and, you know, disarm him, then, you know, who wouldn't he be able to disarm?
In terms of this being a blackmail operation, like Jeffrey Epstein wasn't even that much on the DL on the fact that he was running a blackmail operation.
When he got really big and powerful people blackmailed, he would brag about it.
And he's, there was reports specifically talking about how when he managed to get blackmail on Prince Andrew, he joked about it and he told all his friends that like this was like the Super Bowl of blackmail, getting Prince Andrew, dirt on him.
It was like, you know, winning the Super Bowl, getting a Super Bowl trophy, whatever.
So that's not really like a secret.
Blackmail Operation Revelations00:14:57
24-hour surveillance, like footage, cameras in every single home, the island, the New Mexico home, the New York home.
They even had cameras in the toilet.
Okay.
Like, let's, so I mean, this definitely was a blackmail operation.
I don't think that's a secret.
Again, like in terms of the fact that Epstein was arrested during President Trump's first term, which by the way, that would have happened if it wasn't for his DOJ.
Now, the fact that nothing happened during Biden's administration and we'd like to see more happening and like the truth and like not these like, you know, psychops or games or lies coming out from Trump's administration.
I agree.
And I get that.
But at the end of the day, this is a massive international ring that involves thousands of potential co-conspirators and or clients, whatever you want to call them.
This is like taking down the mafia on steroids.
It's not going to happen in six months.
I don't believe President Trump's part of the cover-up.
I think there's going to be a lot of people.
Again, Liz, okay, okay.
Again, you're not understanding my question.
President Trump would have known in 2019, he was, let's say, for a second and make the assumption he was a CIA asset.
Trump would have known in 2019 as president of the United States, he would have been briefed that.
His CIA director would have told him that was politically appointed by Trump.
He would have known.
Second of all, okay, what's the cover?
Like, okay, let's say what you're saying is true.
There's a bunch of rich people who had sex with underage girls.
That's what's the like, like, if you tell me it, like, it sounds terrible.
Yeah, go after them.
What person around the world wouldn't be like, bravo, get him, get them.
Like, Diddy, when Diddy was taught, now he got acquitted by a journey of jury viewers on the prostitution and racketeering all that.
Like, okay, like, and that, like, okay, fine.
But you tell me, what is the, there's a bunch of rich people that probably 99% of Americans have no idea.
We know people on the list.
Prince Andrews, as Clint said, a former Israeli prime minister.
Like, what's the, like, what's the concern?
And that's the second point.
So, one, Trump would have known in 2019 he was a CIA asset.
And two, what's the concern about a bunch of rich people?
Because if this was a blackmail operation to get dirt on these people, now you have them prosecute them.
No, no, no, no.
Say, Rep, this is the mistake.
So let me give me 10 seconds.
I'll answer.
If you have blackmail on these people, you're talking about the richest and most powerful people in the world.
You don't prosecute them.
You use that blackmail so that you can get them to do your bidding.
So the reason that you're blackmail once you prosecute them.
Exactly.
So that's not the reason you're building these files.
That's not the reason that you're getting compromised on these people.
It's not to put them in jail.
That's what we would like to believe that the DOJ and the FBI are there to do and the CIA for that matter, but they're not.
That's not their job.
Can I just ask you a question quick?
You're muted, by the way, but you're muted still.
Can I just ask you a question quick?
You still need it.
Go ahead.
So I mentioned the Acosta thing, right?
How he's literally outed in the media as cutting the deal because Epstein was part of intelligence.
You can go watch the clip of him not answering the question and not denying it.
And then you're talking about Trump.
Trump relieved him because he knew there were intelligence connections.
Okay.
He always used it for political power.
There was never, ever any sense that anyone's going to get prosecuted.
That's imagination land.
All right.
These people are too powerful.
Now, if you disagree with me, explain to me why within a literal 48-hour period of a news report that Epstein was intelligence, the guy in the Trump administration that cut the deal doesn't answer the question and then is forced to resign.
Does that make sense to you if he's not intelligence?
Well, he was forced to resign because there was public uproar because I remember it came up because he got slapped at the wrist.
There was one report.
But why wouldn't Acosta just say that's not true?
Out of all the reporting, hold on.
Out of all the reporting, I believe if I don't remember which one, there was one that mentioned a possible intelligence.
Others saying, like, he was rich and powerful.
So that he managed to get away because he was rich and powerful, as many would say, is like there's two.
Hold on, Johnny, let me go to Johnny to answer this because that's where I'm trying to understand this.
I don't understand the argument.
If he's, let's say you're 100%, let's say everything you're saying, they want it for compromise.
So why then?
So then we're in agreement that Trump played everybody.
Brother, that's where we are in agreement.
If you don't think that I can't address 100%, let me tell you something that people don't really know.
Go ahead, Johnny.
No one really knows this.
So this is something that's really interesting.
And you should all know this.
Listen, Trump in 2017 put Matthew Pottinger, who's Stanley Pottinger, Bradley Edwards' law partner, who was the one who was the CIA.
He put his son, Matthew Pottinger, in charge as executive deputy national security advisor.
And I believe that is the moment where the operation to take down Jeffrey Epstein started.
And from that point on, the next two years, it was really the plan of, listen, there's way too much skeletons in that closet.
There's arms dealing, there's influence.
There's him traveling around with the former president, meeting leaders all around the world and planning other forms of programs and operations in other countries.
So obviously, there's a load of skeletons in the closet.
Let's just end it.
2017, the operation began.
Matthew Partinger moved in next door to his father.
He also, some people who were involved in the case also set up a fake company called the Federal Enforcement Bureau or something like that, it was called.
And then they went to take down Jeffrey Epstein properly.
Whether they were involved in the murder of Jeffrey Epstein, I don't know, or the supposed suicide, Jeffrey?
I don't know.
Question 2, 2017.
That was Trump.
This is very important.
I don't understand because if our thesis is right, and most on this panel are in, you know, there's a consensus that he was intelligence and he was building this for political leverage and things of that nature and blackmail.
Why would they allow him?
Like, if you're going to take him off the chessboard, so to speak, why allow him to be arrested?
Why have this messy suicide in jail?
Why not just whack the guy?
It doesn't make any sense to me that they don't kill him before they prosecute him.
I agree.
I think the actual, it was their hands were forced.
So the case against him had barrel rolled into a point where they had to do something.
And if he had just died then, then the rest of the stuff really would have the calls would have been even louder than they are now because it would have looked like there was no attempt to hold him to justice.
I know, but having him killed him.
Kill himself in prison, though.
Exactly.
But that's the best they could do with a bad situation.
That's the best they could do.
And the CIA does the best they could do with a bad situation.
And it goes wrong over and over again.
And this is what I think happened.
But that's my own opinion on it.
If I could jump in just on one more really intelligence cue that we just have not hit on is the third person in the ring that was being prosecuted for these light crimes that was in with Ghelane and Epstein.
And you can see him on one of their planes with an IDF hat and rocking the IDF hat over at some of the properties as well.
It's Jean-Luc Brunel.
And again, this is somebody who's involved in the fashion industry because if you want to curry favor with people, pretty young girls and pretty young women is a good way to do it.
For those that don't know, Brunel was being charged in Spain and allegedly committed suicide there as well.
And I'm not saying he didn't commit suicide there.
I can only imagine the prison system and what might have been going on there.
I do think you can get people to kill themselves in prison.
However, when I look at the Epstein evidence in particular, the coroner's report, the fact that you did not have a suicide in that institution for 13 years, and it was the same institution they kept El Chepo, who, again, had actually escaped from prison in other countries.
That facility should have been airtight.
And the videos that they've presented today, they're kind of a joke to me.
I'm not going to lie.
But again, that's just a nice thing.
Is there anything to that minute gap in the video?
Do you guys think?
Again, I'm not even going to weigh in, even though I'm a video editor and I do those sorts of things.
I will say this.
Video manipulation has been extremely easy for a very, very long time.
If you look at the court cases where they were going to or tried to prosecute the guards that quote unquote fell asleep and how that case kind of fell apart at the end, you have to wonder, again, what was going on with those two, who had access to the original tapes, or if you could mess with the live feed and the tape would look like that.
All of that is a very, very real thing.
I mean, espionage does exist, everybody.
So let me throw it over to Steven for the last question because we got to wrap.
As again, I'm trying to play the role of somebody who's just watching this for the first time and figuring all this out.
What we've heard today was that Epstein may have been, and I'm saying may because I know you guys have made a latent case.
I'm just saying to be objective, may have been involved with intelligence, may have been building a honeypot operation to blackmail people.
and then may have killed himself or not.
And the evidence presented may or may not have been altered.
This is all what's out there, right?
Whether it was other countries, whether it's just the United States, whether, you know, whatever.
But here's my question.
Donald Trump's president now, right?
He ran on transparency.
He says he was going to release the JFK files.
That was one of the promises he made to Robert Kennedy Jr.
He releases the JFK files.
He releases the RFK files.
Of course, they're redacted, whether or not you believe they're real or not.
Again, I always go back to the fact that I don't think intelligence is going to keep detailed records for 70 years just to release them and expose themselves.
So I don't know how valuable those files release.
Anyway, but he does release them, right?
Same thing with the Epstein files.
He says, we're going to release the Epstein files, right?
And he says, we're just going to be transparent.
We're going to give all this stuff out.
I think there becomes a point where what people know and don't know that they have or don't have could play a factor into the Pam Bondi thing, the binder thing.
Maybe they thought there was more there than it was there.
Maybe they were just trying to keep promises and hoping nobody knows.
I don't know.
I don't know what the answer is.
I don't think we're ever really going to know.
But here's the question at the end of the day.
Donald Trump is probably, arguably, look, we've had Joe Biden.
We've had Donald Trump before.
We've had Barack Obama.
We've had Democrats, Republicans, and we've had Republican outsiders, right?
We've had every type of president that you can hope to have other than maybe like a third party.
We're not going to talk about that today.
You have anybody going to the White House.
What we don't have evidence from the White House on is aliens or Epstein.
So knowing that we're not going to get another president to come in and give us more information than Trump's willing to give us, and knowing Dan Bongino said he did.
There's no evidence that he didn't kill himself.
He killed himself.
There's no client lists.
This is the end of it.
Nobody else is getting prosecuted other than people being prosecuted.
This is it.
If that's where this is, then isn't this the end of it?
I mean, the only thing left from here forward is to just hypothesize what people think could happen, point the fingers, make the case.
But in the end, who's going to do anything about it?
Because nobody else is coming along to do anything different.
And if they do, there's not going to be any new information.
So Stephen, last word to you.
Sure.
Does it matter anymore?
Do we just move on?
Well, I mean, that's a good question.
I mean, I think it's important for people to understand a few things.
And one is there's deeper levels to government than we see.
And what I mean by that is a deep state does exist.
There's an intelligence community.
There's people in positions of political power that were installed there, that rose through the ranks.
They're, you know, they're bureaucrats.
They're highly, you know, they're highly powerful officials, people that we don't know, that we don't elect, that get into position of power and stay there for a very long time.
And those are the people in many ways pulling the levers on the machine.
When Edward Snowden came out and blew the lid off of the whole NSA domestic spying program, we got to learn a little bit about what's behind the curtain.
So what else don't we know?
The Pentagon is probably the largest purveyor of voice fraud and abuse.
I've encouraged Elon to go after the Pentagon through Doge.
They fail every single audit they've been given.
There's literally trillions of dollars that we don't know where it's gone.
Where is this money going?
Is it going to Skunk Works?
Is it going to back rebels in the Middle East?
Is it reverse engineering UFOs?
We don't know.
And so there's people in these positions that do terrible things.
We've seen the government, of course, carry out terrible things and cover it up or lie to the public about it.
We saw the Tuskegee experiments where they were injecting the black community with syphilis.
We saw Operation Mockingbird, where the CIA admitted to infiltrating the media to control narratives and gatekeep pro-government positions.
During COVID, we saw the government essentially whitewash the origins of the virus.
We saw them only push one form of prophylactic, which was the vaccines.
We saw the World Health Organization try to clamp down on misinformation and work with social media to do it.
And there was all this, people in the NIH and in other organizations that were pulling the strings.
And to be quite honest with you, I think to Donald Trump's credit, wherever it is, I think there's elements of this government even he is afraid to contest with.
I think the machine goes so deep into such dark places that there's real power and real control in places that we don't know who's really pulling the strings in some areas at the risk of getting conspiratorial.
But that's the issue with having such a large government apparatus that's so deeply entrenched.
So from a libertarian perspective and point of view, we do not trust the government to give us the answers.
I think it's going to be up to people like Jason and like Johnny and other folks in this panel to really peel back the layers of this onion and try to find out what's at the center and hopefully bring some truth to the subject to the point to where we can finally either see justice through the justice system or at least in the court of public opinion.
Distrust Uncovered00:02:03
I don't know what's going to come first if we ever really know the truth within our lifetime or decades later.
I will point out one thing.
You look at an incident like the USS Liberty, where the IDF attacked one of our own spy ships that was operating in the Gulf, happened totally unprovoked.
The U.S. Congress made a commission to investigate the USS Liberty and what happened.
It turned out to be a big cover-up.
Decades later, the chair and some of the other members of that commission went out and said, look, we were pressured to do the wrong thing.
The reality was it happened in a way that was, you know, very bad on the IDF.
And these are things we find out decades later.
So what else are we going to find out decades later from now when this supposedly doesn't matter anymore?
I think it does matter.
I think it's going to add to the distrust that people have in their government.
I think trusting governments at an all-time low.
And, you know, it's only going to add to that fire.
And I'll just follow up with saying, I think you're going to see a big schism in the MAGA camp where a lot of people are looking at Donald Trump.
They'll promised the Epstein files or promised all these things.
Maybe they never existed.
Maybe they exist and they're in a file somewhere and in a bunker that we'll never know about for years.
Maybe we already know some things, but the courts will never take it up.
But adding to that distrust is fuel for even more fire that I think we're only beginning to see the surface.
And, you know, there's a lot of things we need to get to the bottom of, but I really don't trust our government to help us find those answers.
And I think more and more of that trust is being dissolved by the day.
Yeah, well, and we still don't know what happened in Butler, Pennsylvania.
So to your point, there's a lot of very interesting things that a lot of people don't have the answers to.
I think the one thing we can agree on is that we can't acknowledge that there is a world that exists outside of the things we're allowed to know about for one reason or another, whether it's for better or for worse.
And at some point, I guess we just have to hope that they're working in our best interest and not against it.
Stay Tuned For Answers00:02:36
With that, you've made an excellent point that to learn more, if people want to dive deeper, if they have the motivation and the bandwidth, everybody on this panel right now, like you could see their names, go take this as the opportunity if you're watching to jot down the names of the people on this panel.
Because as you've heard, they talk about this a lot.
You can go very deep, you can get on their shows, engage in their chat as well, and learn more about these topics.
And I appreciate so much the overview that we got today and the information.
And clearly, you guys have gone very far into uncovering some of this stuff.
And so, if people want to learn more, this is what the beauty of this free speech platform is: you can uncover this information, you can give it to people, and now the people have a place to consume it.
And all of you showcased your research and your talents very well here today.
And I appreciate you all so very much.
Stefano, do you have any closing words before we say goodbye?
No, I just want to thank everybody for their time here.
I know I got passion.
I know I got great.
There was yelling, which is always fun.
We got to make it exciting and not monotone.
So that's great.
I know some of the speakers here, when they join the adjournment, are like, how do you know, do we jump in?
Do we wait?
You know what?
We try to do question and answer, and then everybody jumps in.
And unlike spaces, right, David, where we could just mute everybody here, we're at the whims of who screams ladder to get control.
But no, I appreciate everybody.
I, you know, this is something I told David in the background we were having this, like, I need your help on that.
I am not, I'll be honest, I'm not in the very well in tune in this.
I just think my personal opinion, though, it's not something I've tracked extensively.
And, but I do always want to provide pushback and to prevent this idea, a group think on a stage and be more contrarian and something to get to the point is to get deeper into this.
This is something we talked about yesterday on the space when it first broke.
We had this live stream, and it's probably something we're going to be talking about a lot because, although we're trying to get at the bottom of this, you know, at least in the people cannot discount, I think, the political significance of this in the sense of also possibly even betrayal between a lot of people because a lot of people put a lot of hope on this.
And this seems like they got played and duped.
And there's going to be a lot of people who are going to scream accountability.
So, with that, I want to thank everybody here.
We will probably have either a space or another live stream.
So, stay tuned.
Follow my great friend David here.
Follow all the speakers here.
And make sure that you also follow Mario.
And stay tuned for the next episode.
Thank you, everybody.
Thanks, everyone.
Take care.
And there you have it, folks.
That is a wrap on that debate.
I want to thank you for joining me.
Remember, it is not about left or right, it is always about right and wrong.