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Aug. 4, 2021 - Sebastian Gorka

01:26:34

Sebastian Gorka FULL SHOW: New York Times caught red-handed in COVID coverup

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	On the side of the U.S.
	Constitution, America first.
	The word imperative, it's a good word.
	But when somebody uses it with me, takes me back to chalk-filled classrooms, wooden desks, chalkboards, Latin teachers with elbow patches made of leather on their tweed jackets.
	The imperative!
	Yes, indeed.
	Oh my gosh, that's such a time machine.
	We are on the third day of our summer campaign to help the poorest of the poor with your donations for Food for the Poor, the Christian non-profit relief organization that feeds children who are on the brink of starvation in our hemisphere.
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	God bless you all.
	Thank you, those who have donated and those who will donate.
	We're on Rumble, didn't you know?
	Yes, it is the First Amendment alternative to those censorious, fascistic people in Palo Alto who run YouTube.
	You can subscribe today for free at Rumble.com slash SebGorka.
	That's Rumble.com slash S-E-B-G-O-R-K-A.
	Another fan of Rumble is a certain senator, last name Paul.
	Cut A.
	Recently, I shared a video on my YouTube page.
	It was an interview between myself and a journalist where we discussed a variety of topics, including the science behind wearing masks.
	Apparently, because I dared to contradict Dr. Fauci and the government, YouTube has removed my video.
	If you want to see the video, it's up on Rumble.com.
	Rumble.com does not censor the news.
	YouTube said the video violated their policy because of my comments on masks.
	And they don't allow videos that contradict government's guidance on COVID.
	Unbelievable.
	However, if you're the greatest, the most overpaid bureaucrat in federal government, there are other rules for you on YouTube.
	This is somebody who I think who's been on the show from Sky News, Shari Markson on Tucker Cut5.
	Well, Sky News, the entire news network in Australia, has been censored by YouTube for an entire week for bringing responsible, informed coverage to Australian people.
	And yet, the people who are actually guilty of misinformation Anthony Fauci, who said last year that masks don't work before backflipping.
	Joe Biden, who just recently said that vaccinations stop infections when that's not what they do.
	They prevent hospitalisation and death.
	And the WHO, the very body that the YouTube and other tech giants rely on for its advice about what's misinformation.
	The WHO, ...insisted for months that COVID-19 was not transmissible, there was no human-to-human transmission.
	They then objected when the United States, Australia and New Zealand implemented travel bans from China.
	They told the rest of the world, they told Europe, travel bans were not necessary.
	This directly led to the spread of the virus globally.
	So, in summation, Senator, video deleted for speaking the truth.
	Sky News, very different from the Sky News in the UK.
	Sky News Australia is actually far, far better.
	They are suspended for a week.
	on YouTube for speaking the truth about the coronavirus.
	But Fauci, the CDC, the NIH, Biden, who have all spread disinformation, YouTube, owned by Google, same company, absolutely fine.
	It's sheer propaganda.
	It is an attempt to throttle the truth, but not on our watch.
	Let's go to Steve, Myrtle Beach, line three.
	How you doing, Dr. Guacca?
	Good.
	I just appreciate you having me on the show.
	I'm trying to find some information.
	While Donald Trump was in office, who will be one of the greatest presidents in American history, you heard a lot on the news regarding state politicians or congresspeople suing the administration.
	I understand that a sitting president cannot be sued, but how does a private citizen go about suing the administration?
	How does a private citizen?
	Well, you've got to have standing.
	What are you asking about?
	What's the issue?
	Well, I mean, there's censorship.
	There's a laundry list when it comes to the Biden administration.
	But mainly, objectively, it would be censorship and, you know, what they're doing at our border.
	Well, you should join President Trump's case.
	You should get involved in a class action, whether it's against the censorious platforms or whether it's the government themselves.
	So the best thing to do is to make sure you've got standing and to get involved collectively in a class action suit.
	Look, I'm not a lawyer.
	We're going to have Jenna Ellis with us next, but that's my recommendation to you, and it's an interesting concept.
	Thank you, Steve.
	John, South Carolina, Line 5.
	Dr. G, I have to get you to employ your investigators in an investigative sense here.
	My dozens of investigators.
	Go ahead, John.
	What are we going to investigate?
	This is a serious, somber topic.
	I'll belay the normal cleverness and banter here.
	I'm really upset to hear that the fourth DC police officer has killed himself over the weekend.
	And something is extremely amiss about this.
	We have 535, if I remember correctly, People who were arrested during the the melee and that's probably a pretty good word what happened and instead of Insurrection the melee in January 6 Still not released on bond or even given bond and then we've got four police officers who were involved in it who killed themselves apparently So what?
	You've got a minute left.
	What are you positing, John?
	Well, I'm not positing anything.
	I'm just basically, and I'm careful not to do that.
	I want you to understand that.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I have, I have, something is fishy.
	That's what I'm positing.
	Something is extremely fishy.
	But why is it fishy?
	After years and years, and especially the last year and a half, police being demonized, why would it be fishy for there to be a higher rate of suicide against law enforcement officers?
	Well, I guess I'm tying it to the fact of what happened January 6th.
	But is there any connection?
	Do you know?
	The question is, that's the question, and is there?
	I mean, that's one of the things that an investigator, an open-minded investigator has to do in whiteboarding the situation.
	This is a fascinating question, and your timing is perfect, John.
	Just last night, With our guest from yesterday, I went to a cigar event for conservatives, and there was a delightful officer, a former officer from the MPD, I'll just call him Tim, very impressive, former Marine, and we're going to get him in studio, and we're going to ask him, because he's former MPD.
	We will begin the investigation, John.
	Next, Jenna Ellis.
	Next, Jenna Ellis. Jenna Ellis.
	Next, Jenna Ellis. Jenna Ellis.
	kids under 12, that they avoid being in places where they might get infected, which means recommendations of mask wearing in schools and that at home, parents of unvaccinated kids should be thoughtful about this.
	And the recommendation is to wear masks there as well.
	Let me just follow up.
	I know that's uncomfortable.
	I know it seems weird, but it is the best way to protect your kids.
	Any other cuts?
	No, I'm good.
	All right.
	No, you're not.
	My good friend and colleague Trish Regan is known as one of the bravest conservative voices in this country.
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	Thank you.
	- Jean Robinson.
	Have any of the Republicans who defamed you and who treated you so badly apologized?
	No, definitely not.
	I don't think it's in their DNA at the moment to do that.
	I had hoped at one point that the Republicans who tout themselves as defenders of the military, defenders of law enforcement, would kind of see the merits of what I'm saying.
	None of that really unfolded the way it did.
	There were a couple of Republican leaders that did reach out and were supportive.
	Liz Cheney reached out and spoke to my wife.
	I thought Romney took a principled stand.
	I thought Romney took a principled stand.
	I thought Romney took a principled stand.
	I thought Romney took a principled stand.
	The truth.
	The whole truth.
	Nothing but the truth.
	That's Dr. G's specialty.
	America first!
	She's a regular guest.
	She's been a guest host.
	She is the chair of the National Election Integrity Alliance.
	But for the purposes of this segment, I want to talk to her as a professor, as a teacher, as a lawyer and a expert in constitutional law, former attorney to President Trump, Jenna Ellis.
	Welcome back to America First.
	Always great to join you, Seb.
	Thanks for having me.
	So much to talk about.
	So much to talk about.
	I got a little carried away yesterday.
	I was on Newsmax with my buddy Steve Cortez and the mandatory vaccines cropped up and the masks and everything else and I told Biden, I told Kamala, I told Fauci, I'm never taking the vaccine.
	You're going to have to knock me out and strap me down if you're going to get a needle in my body.
	I've had the coronavirus.
	I'm not afraid of the freaky Delta Epsilon Gamma versions.
	How do we push back as people who believe in small government, in freedom, in liberty, given the fact That I have a vaccine mark in my body when I was a kid for smallpox or whatever it was, mumps, rubella.
	What is the right response in the face of these threats of mandatory vaccinations?
	Well, pushing back is absolutely the appropriate response.
	And if you are a person who wants to take the vaccine, fine, it's available for everyone.
	But the issue here is compulsory vaccination.
	The government, specifically the federal government and all executive branches on the state level, have absolutely no authority constitutionally or even on the state level to compel you to take a vaccine.
	And let's talk about Biden and the administration on the federal level for just a second, Seb, because we have to remember This vaccine is only approved for emergency use.
	That means it is not FDA approved.
	It is not in the same category as any other vaccine that people are trying to compare this to.
	So under federal law, the actual federal law that provides for the emergency use authorization in the United States Code requires the Secretary of Health and Human Services to provide what's called in the law informed consent.
	This means That you and I and anyone else who refuses to take the vaccine can simply say no, and we have to have the right to refuse.
	And if the Secretary of Health and Human Services is required to provide that, then absolutely every other government agent on the state and local level and anywhere else absolutely has to provide informed consent and the right to refuse.
	What do you say to those who see themselves as conservative, Janet?
	We're talking to Janet Ellis, host of Just the Truth podcast, who say, well, you know, this is America and businesses, if we believe in freedom, should be allowed to say, you're not coming in here unless you prove to me you're vaccinated.
	What's the correct response to that?
	It's laughable and absolutely not.
	And so You know, just because you're a private business and you're not a government actor doesn't mean that you can literally do whatever you want.
	This is why anti-discrimination laws, for example, have gained so much traction.
	And this is why there are laws on the books for businesses, for the right of people to participate in commerce, to participate as a customer.
	For example, property law talks about invitees, who are people, if you're a business and your doors are open to everyone,
	Then you can't simply say I'm not going to serve this in this person based on a different type of class and what we need to do and where the law needs to go from here is define this type of health and safety sort of protocol as a protected class for a business to say that they're going to discriminate against you based on your vaccination status.
	isn't rational.
	There's no actual scientific reason for that.
	It's simply a way for businesses to try to go with all of these other pressures from the CDC and try to, in a roundabout way, say, we are going to pressure you to go along with the CDC guidelines, which, let's be honest, flip-flop every day.
	And so again, this is still emergency use.
	You have a right to refuse, and there's no way that it's legal that a private organization would have to have you prove something that you have a right to refuse under the law.
	All right.
	Only 30 seconds left in this segment, but I have to ask you, some people have said use the word segregation, neo-segregationist, or even apartheid, as my colleague on Newsmax said last night.
	Are those words that you concur with?
	Absolutely.
	I've called this the modern-day segregation.
	They're trying to create a loathsome class out of the unvaccinated and to try to ostracize the unvaccinated from society.
	It absolutely needs to be a protected class.
	I think it already is under law.
	We just need the legal precedent to get there specifically for this vaccination.
	All right, more to come.
	Follow this lady right now, Jenna Ellis ESQ on Twitter, also on Instagram.
	I'm Sebastian Gawker.
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	Learn more at AmericanConsequences.com.
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	The End Hi, this is President Trump, and Sebastian is really a friend of mine.
	He's a great guy.
	He's been with me from the beginning.
	Listen to him.
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	Code Gawker.
	We are back with former attorney to President Trump, host of the Just the Truth podcast, chair of the National Election Integrity Alliance.
	You can support them, find out more about that organization, of which I am a member.
	Full disclosure.
	at AmericanGreatnessFund.com.
	That's AmericanGreatnessFund.com.
	Jenna, something's kind of come to me in the last week when it comes to remaskings, mandatory vaccinations, where are your papers kind of attitude from those little fascists like Fauci.
	And this nation has a great history From MLK on down of civil disobedience.
	If they want to shut down our businesses again, put masks on our kids, isn't it time for a little bit of civil disobedience redux?
	Absolutely.
	And let's remember also that our founders who were exercising civil disobedience against the petty tyrants of their day didn't have an attitude of rebellion.
	They had an attitude of humility in respecting the foundational principles of the truth and ultimately the truth of the word of God and understanding that our rights come from God, our creator, not our government.
	And so the obligation of government is to preserve and protect those rights.
	So here in America, we're actually blessed that when we exercise civil disobedience against an overreaching tyrannical government or like the Biden administration or a lot of these Democrat governors, we're actually exercising obedience to our highest rule of law, which is the United States Constitution. we're actually exercising obedience to our highest rule of law, And so we are preferring to follow the rule of law that our founders provided instead of the petty tyrants.
	So just like my client and a wonderful friend, John MacArthur and Grace Community Church out in California, refused to shut down their church as of July of last year and just said, no, Governor Gavin Newsom in California, you're a petty tyrant.
	We're not following those ridiculous mandates and rules.
	And he has kept his church open.
	It's been a legal battle.
	Absolutely.
	But he has prevailed.
	And we are continuing to fight for freedom and liberty on those issues.
	And so absolutely, it's time for Americans who understand That this country provides a way for us to exercise civil disobedience in the fact that we are so principled.
	We need to stand up for that and not just say, well, you know, is it really that inconvenient to wear a mask?
	Or, you know, is it really I should just get the vaccine so that I can go and not make a big deal out of it?
	Absolutely not.
	If they can compel us and get on precedent to compel us under the auspices of health and safety, Look at how governments have done that in the past and created a loathsome class and said, hey, it's for health and safety.
	That is no joke how this led to instances of mass genocide.
	And I'm not saying that we're there yet.
	I'm saying this is the slope to get there.
	And we have to make sure that we're saying, no, we're standing firm, that it is our civil rights and liberties that are on the line.
	And we are exercising obedience To the Constitution, to the principles of America's founding and disobedient to the petty tyrants who are in the wrong and are unconstitutional.
	God bless you for helping that parish and that pastor.
	But we're talking about one-off instances of people resisting.
	I still don't see that critical mass where we have hundreds, thousands of individuals.
	Are you seeing any signs of people saying, no, you're not shutting down my business again.
	No, you're not inoculating my children or masking them.
	Is there any positive sign?
	Absolutely.
	And I think we're seeing that, in fact, all over the world when we look at all of these worldwide protests, like in France and in Germany.
	You know, those are things that we need to be doing in the United States and peacefully protesting.
	Obviously, you know, it's sad that we have to put that disclaimer on there.
	But but obviously the conservatives who are standing up and making their voices heard when it is a one off.
	The fact is that when, you know, the government comes to one small business and says, You know, you have to shut down and that small business says, no, I refuse.
	That is the one off.
	But the more and more and more people who do that, that's how the movement grows and builds.
	And for people, Seb, like you, who are telling people and are raising the alarm and saying to millions of your listeners, no, we can stand up and have courage and boldness to stand firmly for the principled truth.
	That's how we build critical mass and that's how we start Getting those plaintiffs to file these types of lawsuits so that we get good precedent and law on the books.
	Follow this lady, listen to her podcast, Just the Truth.
	She is the chairperson of the National Election Integrity Alliance.
	Give us any update with regards to the audits.
	What's the latest from Maricopa County?
	Yeah, well as the Maricopa County and the Board of Supervisors responded to a The legislature to the Senate that is conducting these audits and basically did just a really snarky, disrespectful response, basically saying, you know, yeah, we're not giving you anything.
	You know that this was free and fair and completely disregarding all of the evidence, all of the rationale for audits and just said, no, we're not giving you anything.
	And also Dominion voting machines also responded, you know, no.
	And I think that it's it's shameful in this sense that these individuals are saying No, we don't care about the truth, and we're not going to comply with a legislative audit.
	And especially for anyone who is in government, like the Board of Supervisors, they have an obligation, obviously, to comply, but also for any government contractor.
	I don't care if it's a voting machine, if it's, you know, you're building planes, you know, whatever you're doing for the government.
	If you're a government contractor to hide behind proprietary information, No.
	then that just alone should should be the rationale and reason for the state legislatures to contemplate do you really want to continue that business with that particular government contractor who says oh just trust us we don't want to verify no the services we're providing are fair and accurate that should raise a lot of red flags indeed it should and that's why she's here raising those flags for her i'm I'm Sebastian Gorka and we've been talking to Jenna Ellis.
	Thank you, Jenna.
	God bless.
	Keep doing what you do.
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	My good friend and colleague Trish Regan is known as one of the bravest conservative voices in this country.
	Now I'm proud to tell you about her exciting new podcast, American Consequences.
	With the biggest guests in the country, including yours truly, Trish talks about the topics the mainstream refuses to cover.
	Weekly, the American Consequences podcast dives deep into the fiscal and monetary policy, politics and economics you need to know about.
	Learn more at AmericanConsequences.com.
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	It is something we could discuss every single day.
	Why?
	Because it is what the media and now the White House is doing to you constantly.
	It's called gaslighting.
	In another period it was just propaganda, before that it was lying.
	There is a man who is responsible for your safety in terms of the border, securing that border and keeping people who shouldn't be in America from gaining entry.
	His name is Alejandro Mayorkas and this is how much he lies to every single one of you.
	Cut 4.
	Let me, if I can, share with you what makes the challenge so acute at this point in time.
	We are following an administration that, frankly, dismantled our capabilities to address it, and so we are building it from the ground up.
	We lost four years of investing in the countries from which these individuals are migrating.
	Our safe and orderly systems were torn down, and so we're rebuilding them.
	Our safe and orderly systems were torn down by President Trump.
	That's what he means.
	What is he saying?
	He's saying the fact that we, the Trump administration, managed to secure the border, that is the problem.
	The fact that thanks to Title 42 after Covid, which helped make sure the pandemic wouldn't spread and we could send people back who had come here illegally, That we managed to make it a trickle across the southern border.
	That's the problem.
	Now it's 6,000 people a day.
	At least 20% of them with COVID.
	That's his idea of fixed.
	That's how evil these people are.
	And that's how much they disrespect not only the truth, but you as well.
	We will not let them get away with it.
	In the meantime, if you're losing our signal right now, we have a third hour, an incredible, incredible guest, Gordon Chang, the threat from China and why communism is a threat here in America.
	Check out our podcast.
	Subscribe today and you will get that interview as well.
	I'm Sebastian Gawker.
	This is America First on the Salem Radio Network, coming to you from the reliefactor.com studios.
	Don't forget to check out our podcast and our website, sebgorka.com.
	Thank you.
	The End
	you
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Welcome,
	dear friends, back to America first, but it's one-on-one.
	It is our opportunity to go a little bit deeper, to get to know our special guests, our regular contributors, people who we have great respect for and who deserve to be better known by millions of people across the nation and across the world.
	Somebody who I've relied upon for years, who I got to know through my good friend John Batchelor and his radio show.
	is, as far as I'm concerned, sinologist number one.
	He is the China expert I refer to when I want to understand what is going on in Asia.
	His name is Gordon Chang.
	You can follow him at Gordon G. Chang.
	Gordon, welcome back to this special one on one.
	Thank you so much, Seb.
	So I want to talk, I want to cross the waterfront, all the key issues, not just what's happened in the last six months, not just what's happened since China has a new self-anointed emperor.
	But I want to talk about the broader geopolitical aspects.
	You have a very robust Twitter account, you have been very outspoken in terms of the threat of communism writ large to Western civilization, but first for those who I haven't heard of you before who are tuning in for the first time to this discussion or listening to it on a video platform.
	Tell us a little bit of who Gordon Chang is and how you got the very robust beliefs that you have today.
	Well, Seb, I'm a writer and I wrote a book, The Coming Collapse of China, in 2001, in which I predicted the Communist Party would fail in 10 years.
	So I was wrong about that.
	The reason why I wrote that book was because Lydia and I were living in China.
	We moved there August 1996 because I went there to work for my primary client, Citibank.
	We were doing all sorts of deals and it was a very optimistic time.
	And I can remember when we moved to Shanghai, Lydia got on the phone and said, Mom, China's not communist anymore.
	And I agreed with her because I saw my clients, they would buzz into Shanghai They would stay at the Grand Hyatt, which is one of the most spectacular hotels in the world, and they would say the same thing.
	But as we lived in China, as we traveled around, talked to people, worked there, we saw a very different country.
	And that led us to believe that the regime was not stable.
	I think it still is unstable.
	It was able to get through largely because of the 2008 downturn and also because companies didn't hold China to its World Trade Organization promises, which I thought they would.
	So I've been wrong about timing.
	But we're seeing a China right now that is dangerous.
	Now, a lot of people say that it's dangerous because it's strong.
	I think it's dangerous because it's weak.
	But fundamentally, we have agreement on one point, and that is that China poses an existential threat to the United States and to the international system. - One thing, you know me, my proclivities, I'm a national security guy.
	I'm a big-picture grand strategy guy.
	That's what excites me.
	And one of my mentors at a distance, somebody I admire greatly, who we lost far too early, is Colin Gray, a U.S.-Brit national, dual national, who has written the books on grand strategy.
	If you're not familiar with his modern strategy, dear friends, read Colin Gray's modern strategy.
	And he developed this idea with some of his British colleagues of strategic culture, meaning that every nation has a peculiar strategic culture, meaning how its people and especially how its decision-making elites look at the world.
	Look at the concept of national security and defense, and it's different.
	Belgium has a different national security from Vanuatu or a different national security culture or way of looking at the world.
	Will you help us?
	Let's just start at the beginning.
	Let's build the building blocks of understanding the current environment by understanding what is different about China.
	In my estimation, it hasn't really changed since the end of the Warring Kingdoms period.
	And it has been an empire in all but name, whether or not who was in charge.
	But help those who are not steeped in the culture of this nation or geopolitics to understand what's different from China and America or China and Belgium.
	China is in a sense unique.
	And as you point out, all countries are unique.
	But China is unique in a way which is actually frightening.
	Because Xi Jinping, the current ruler, has views that are the same as those during two millennia of Chinese imperial rule, which ended in 1912.
	The problem is that Chinese leaders today, as they did during the imperial era, believe in tianxia, or all under heaven.
	And that means that they believe that they are not only have the right to rule all under heaven, but they're also compelled by heaven to do so.
	Many people talk about the mandate of heaven, and that's all a part of this.
	So this has gotten to frightening proportions, because Xi Jinping has extended this concept not only to all of planet Earth, but also to the near parts of the solar system, specifically the Moon and Mars, which now Chinese officials are talking about should be considered part of the People's Republic.
	So we've got the most ambitious rulers in history now, and that is their culture.
	They believe that they have a right to rule.
	The United States, on the other hand, is powerful, but we don't believe that.
	We believe that everyone works well when everyone is prosperous.
	Got to remember that at the end of the Second World War, the United States was more powerful than any other nation in history, not only as an absolute matter, but also relative to everybody else.
	But what the U.S.
	did was it tried to strengthen Europe, and we created competitors for ourselves with the Marshall Plan and with other things.
	So this was the United States saying, look, we need to make sure the world is prosperous and stable.
	We understand that this is going to undercut our relative power, but this is good for everybody.
	That, in essence, is the difference between American and Chinese strategic thinking.
	Just to clarify, you know, for conservatives and for others, there is a sense that America has a manifest destiny, that it has a role to play as the nation with the oldest constitution, as the only nation that has a constitution based on the concept of individual liberty.
	But if these are both nations that have a sense of manifest destiny, the big difference is one wishes to impose its system, which is not based on liberty, on all others and have all nations as satrapies or tributary nations.
	And America wishes to be the example to the rest of the world of how to create these systems.
	Is that a fair contrast?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Because the United States believes that, you know, we go through the post-war era, when you have the creation of all of these multilateral institutions, the UN, World Bank, International Monetary Fund.
	And the idea was to create this system of rules, conventions, treaties, norms, guidelines.
	And that's what the United States put in place.
	That's the system that survived the Cold War.
	Now, there are problems with that system, which have become deep and fundamental.
	But generally speaking, the United States has always said, look, we are all in this together, we're all going to prosper together, or none of us are really going to prosper on a sustainable basis.
	Whereas China says, look, we are the only ones who have a right to rule.
	And that is a fundamental divide which really we cannot bridge.
	For as long as the Communist Party is there ruling China, this is something that we cannot reconcile with them about.
	You said you traveled there, you lived there, you worked there in the 1990s.
	Many companies have invested millions, if not billions, into China, despite it being a one-party state.
	Could you clarify for us?
	Are those who say, oh, it's not communist, it's a new version of capitalism?
	What is the Chinese system today, Gordon Chang?
	You got great timing, Seb, because Ray Dalio, the Wall Street legendary figure, actually said something like this just a few hours ago, saying, well, look, you know, China's communist rulers aren't communist.
	They are not anti-capitalist.
	And what he was referring to was, of course, over the last two, three weeks, starting with the initial public offering of Didi Global on June 30, We have witnessed China attack its tech sector, and many people have said that this has been suicide because Xi Jinping has wiped hundreds of billions of dollars of value off of markets globally, maybe approaching about a trillion, and he's not stopped.
	But really, Xi Jinping reveres Mao.
	Now, he is not able to make China, today, a Maoist state.
	But that's where he's driving things.
	And so Ray Dalio is absolutely wrong about that.
	Xi Jinping doesn't have the political power to, for instance, rule by dictate.
	But he is pushing China back to a state system, something that Mao Zedong would be familiar with.
	And as long as Xi is in power, that's the direction that China is going.
	A lot of people, and one other context, a lot of people call China authoritarian.
	Well, Maybe one could make the argument that during the era of Deng Xiaoping and his successors, Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao, that maybe China was authoritarian.
	I don't buy it, but a lot of people, and that's the majority view.
	But today, I don't think we can say that with the Great Firewall, the social credit system, with all the other elements of the coercive state.
	China is now semi-totalitarian.
	And if Xi Jinping gets his way, it will go back to full-on totalitarianism.
	So really, that is the essence of Chinese rule today.
	It is a country in transition, moving in the wrong direction.
	Gordon, we lost you there for a second. - Um, Hello, hello.
	Are you back?
	I'm back.
	Okay, good, good, good.
	You froze there for a second.
	I love that description of semi-totalitarian.
	We're talking to Gordon Chang.
	Follow him at GordonGChang.
	The latest book monograph is The Great US-China Tech War.
	Gordon, you mentioned Mao in your discussion of China today and the fact that Xi Jinping is creating a semi-authoritarian regime.
	He's not Mao.
	Help us to understand who Mao is and why for some... I mean...
	We talk about communism.
	My parents suffered under communism.
	Stalin, Lenin.
	These are the figures we think of.
	But the Chinese regime is the deadliest of all.
	We are talking about maybe 50, 60 million people killed in the name of Karl Marx's utopia.
	Talk to us about the significance of Mao in the building of the communist state and the significance of Mao still today.
	Mao was one of the early members of the Chinese Communist Party, which was generally formed around 1921.
	The official birthday is July 1st, 1921.
	Mao was an enormous figure, dominated China and indeed dominated Asia for quite some time.
	When Mao was successful in forming the People's Republic of China, which was declared on October 1st, 1949, Mao became the most powerful Chinese leader.
	And eventually he pushed out others.
	And during Mao's era, the death toll was staggering, far beyond any other leader.
	People say, for instance, in the Great Leap Forward, which was the campaign 1959, 1960, 1961, the time of the Great Famine, as it's called, there is somewhere between 30 and 70 million people died.
	Now, in addition to that, you have 5 million people in the Cultural Revolution.
	You've got several million here and there.
	But Mao's death total could very well be somewhere in the 70, 75 million range.
	Other people put it less.
	But the point is that this was one man directly responsible for policies that resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of people.
	And this is, I believe, the person most has the biggest death toll in history.
	Mao is a charismatic figure.
	He was able to kill so many people because he intimidated everybody else.
	And because of that, Chinese communism has never been the same before.
	Xi Jinping admires Mao, talks about Mao, visits Mao places around China, historic locations, and he's driving China red, as they say.
	And that means that we've got to be concerned That we've got another Mao Zedong who is now currently ruling China.
	With, you've described the incredible hotels, the businesses, the investment, what Shanghai looks like, can you give us a glimpse into what the reality for Chinese nationals who aren't part of the Communist Party elite, just how communist a nation this still is, and what kind of persecution not just Uyghurs but ethnic Han Chinese suffer today?
	Yes, just to take a look at, for instance, the ordinary Chinese.
	There are 95 million people in the Communist Party of China, but only 300 or so really count.
	And the ones who are the most important sit on the Politburo Standing Committee, which is seven people.
	And of those seven, there is only one figure of significance these days, and that's Xi Jinping.
	Because Xi Jinping believes that he has to have absolute control over the Communist Party.
	Most Chinese have a decent level of living, but nonetheless, they have certainly not as prosperous as they would have been if they had a democratic form of governance.
	And we know that because Japan, South Korea, Taiwan were as poor as China was in the late 1940s.
	And those societies are so much better.
	And by the way, in those societies, you don't have the death toll that we, of course, have just been talking about.
	But the problem in China right now is not so much prosperity, but it's people chafing under this dictatorial system.
	And that means, for instance, if you're a Christian, even if you don't have any sort of revolutionary tendencies, and Christians don't, they just want to pray.
	But China has made them enemies of the state.
	Same with Tibetans, same with Uyghurs.
	China has created these enemies by forcing them into complete subservience and obedience.
	And of course, if you're a Turkic minority, if you're a Uyghur, a Kazakh, or one of the others, life is hell on earth.
	Because what we have witnessed since 2017, when these policies were first put into place in Xinjiang, Which is the northwest part of the country.
	People have been detained in concentration camps.
	We know people are dying in those camps, Seb, because the regime is building crematoria next to them.
	There is brutality.
	There is institutionalized rape.
	There is forced organ harvesting, from all that we can determine.
	And there's a policy of genocide.
	You put all this together, these are the most horrific policies since World War II.
	They're comparable to what the Third Reich did prior to the mass exterminations of 1941.
	And we've got to be concerned that China will actually make that next step because the policies are horrific.
	Yeah, and American businesses are in part profiting from them, like Nike and others.
	We're talking to Gordon Chang, author of The Great U.S.-China Tech War.
	Follow him, Gordon G. Chang, on Twitter.
	Gordon, talk to us about Hong Kong, which was a paradise of freedom in the region and a financial center for Asia.
	It's kind of fallen off the radar or the legacy media is not interested.
	What is the state or the plight of people living in Hong Kong now under communist Chinese control?
	Hong Kong, which was once a relatively free and open city, has become, it's moving very fast to a totalitarian system.
	In 1984, Britain promised to return Hong Kong to China, as it was said.
	It was to be handed back on July 1st, 1997.
	And from then on, for 50 years, it was going to be a one country, two systems formula, where although Hong Kong was formally part of the People's Republic, it would be separate.
	The only thing that Hong Kong wouldn't do would be to be responsible for its own defense.
	That was part of Beijing's responsibility.
	So what Beijing has done is it's abrogated the Sino-British Joint Declaration, this 1984 treaty with Britain, and it has taken full control of Hong Kong.
	This became evident June 30 of last year when China imposed... Oh, we're losing him again.
	China imposed what?
	Gun?
	National security law on Hong Kong.
	And that has been, as people have said, The end of law in Hong Kong because it's given China the ability and the right under that law to do anything that it wants.
	What we have seen in the last couple days is, for instance, the arrest of singer Tony Wong.
	And he was arrested because in 2018, he gave a speech at a political rally for a candidate who won.
	Beijing didn't like it.
	So he's been arrested under an election law.
	But we have also witnessed about 100 people in Hong Kong arrested under the national security law.
	And in addition to that, China's closed Apple Daily, which was not only Hong Kong's main pro-democracy newspaper, it was Hong Kong's main newspaper.
	So this has been a total assault on civil society in Hong Kong.
	And it is on the way back to being just another Chinese city, as the phrase is used in that territory.
	Let's go a little bit broader with our discussion.
	We're talking to Gordon Chang.
	Gordon, let me ask a tough question for you to answer.
	Do the Chinese want democracy?
	Is the culture with the Confucian background, with the emphasis of the collective over the individual, is this even possible to countenance in this part of the world?
	I think that it is, because we see in Taiwan, which is not a Chinese society, but is closely related to China, where you have a vibrant, very prosperous society, very open, very democratic.
	And by the way, Seb, they run elections far better in Taiwan than we do.
	Do they have voter ID, Gordon?
	Do they have voter ID?
	They not only have voter ID, they have a system, Seb, Whereas paper ballots, what happens is when they count these ballots, everybody is in the room and the government official responsible for the ballots actually holds it up to everybody.
	Everybody then counts it because they can all see it.
	And the process might take a little bit longer than ours, but it is virtually, um, it's virtually, uh, uh, fraud proof.
	Um, now, um, but put that aside for a moment.
	People in Taiwan are passionate about their democracy.
	They don't consider themselves Chinese.
	They consider themselves Taiwanese.
	But for many people, you know, they look Chinese.
	And they speak a language which is very similar to Mandarin.
	And they've got the same, or at least they had the same Yeah.
	characters until Mao went to simplified characters.
	But the point is, yes, the Chinese people, they want, they're just like the rest of us.
	They want what everyone else has.
	On the mainland is a complicated question, and we don't really know the answer because you can't do a survey of something sensitive like that.
	If you want to know what the Chinese people have a preference for toothpaste, you can do a survey.
	It will be reliable.
	If you're going to ask them, though, on something that the Communist Party feels it has an interest, such as, for instance, do you want more say in your life?
	You can't do that.
	You're right that there is a Confucian culture there.
	You're right that that is, in many respects, anti-democratic.
	But we also know that the Chinese people do want more of a say in their lives.
	And so, you know, at the particular time, even though Communist Party propaganda has been extremely effective in molding views, this is like the Truman Show.
	I mean, this is the only thing that people know.
	Nonetheless, we do know that there is discontent with the government style of the Communist Party.
	And if they've really had a choice, who knows what they would eventually choose.
	Is there an underground in China?
	I know the Falun Gong have been targeted, but that is a quasi-religious movement.
	Is there a dissident movement in China, Gordon Chang?
	Well, there is, Sam, and it's called the Underground Protestant Church.
	They're house churches.
	And as I said before, Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, they don't want to be enemies of the state, but the state has turned them into one.
	And so if there is a dissident movement, I think that you would probably say that it is the Protestants who worship outside of the official Protestant church.
	In terms of democracy advocates, which is probably what you were going at, there are people who speak up.
	There are people who end up in jail and worse, like Lou Chabot, the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.
	It is not a strong movement inside of China, because the Communist Party has been obsessively thorough in attacking opponents of the party.
	But nonetheless, it's there.
	And it pops up at all sorts of times.
	And we've seen this with, for instance, these insurgent groups, which sometimes have an effect, sometimes they are then pushed back into the shadows, but they are generally there.
	They're not a major factor, but they do exist.
	I have to play right now a clip that we've played several times on our radio show, and it's a perfect apropos for you to explain what's happened in the last six months with regards to US-China relations.
	This is from the Anchorage Summit with China, with the Biden administration.
	Cut three, play cut.
	You don't have the right to say that you're talking about the right to speak with China.
	So let me say here that in front of the Chinese side, the United States does not have the qualification to say that it wants to speak to China from a position of strength.
	Gordon, would that have happened from the chief diplomat at that meeting under the Trump administration And if not, what does it bode for the future?
	What does it mean about US-China relations since Biden was inaugurated?
	Well, in fact, during the Trump administration, senior Chinese officials never said anything like that in public.
	And I don't think that they actually were ever inclined to think that they might be able to do that.
	Why?
	Why?
	What did they think of us under the Trump administration?
	Chinese officials were scared of Trump, which is basically, you know, Chinese officials, they can deal with a tough American president.
	They can deal with a weak one.
	What they can't deal with is an unpredictable one.
	And from their perspective, Trump was unpredictable.
	His policies, in their view, were not certain.
	And so they always gave the U.S.
	a wide berth.
	And I think part of this really stems from that meeting in 2017, April or so, when Xi Jinping went to Mar-a-Lago, spent a couple days with Trump.
	Trump, like all new American presidents, was trying to establish some sort of relationship with the Chinese.
	But what Trump did was different than previous American presidents.
	And it was, I think, epitomized by that dinner that they had over that wonderful chocolate cake, as people talk about.
	And that was that Trump announced the airstrikes on Syria, a China friend.
	And this, I think, deeply shook Xi Jinping.
	Over the chocolate cake.
	I mean, this is important that my former boss said, by the way, we've launched 53 cruise missiles on Syria chemical weapons bases as he's eating his chocolate cake.
	There's a certain that's not just a message for Xi Jinping.
	That's a message for all client states and all dictatorships.
	Is it not, Gordon?
	Oh, absolutely.
	And I think that's I think that set the tone for the rest of the Trump administration with regard to China.
	We know, Seb, of elite Chinese attitudes towards Biden.
	And that's just, we don't have to guess about this.
	On November 28th of last year, Di Dongcheng, a prominent Chinese academic at Renmin University in Beijing, actually had that big event where he was talking, this was broadcast around China, where he was talking about how in administrations previous to Trump, The China could determine outcomes at the highest levels of the U.S.
	because they were able to use Henry Kissinger, he referred to, and they were able to use Wall Street.
	And Professor Dee actually said during the Trump administration, we couldn't do this anymore because that connection was broken, which was the way that he put it.
	Their bodies at Wall Street wouldn't help them out.
	Right.
	Well, couldn't help them out because Trump is just not listening.
	Of course, Wall Street wanted to influence the Trump administration, worked very hard to do so, but were not able to because Trump was his own president.
	And Professor Dee then said, remember this was after the election, he said, with the Biden team coming in, we're looking forward to reestablishing that Wall Street connection with the White House.
	Now, Dee, De-expressed in arrogance, because if you got to listen to the words and everything, that was frightening.
	And that arrogance was carried through in the clip that you just played, which was Yang Jiechi, China's number one diplomat.
	Yeah.
	And that's really chilling, because what he was saying, what Yang was actually saying to the United States was, look, deterrence is breaking down.
	We Chinese can do what we want.
	You can't stop us.
	And because of China's ambitions, We know that this is one of the most dangerous things that the Chinese could have said.
	You have to read this man's book, The Great U.S.-China Tech War.
	You have to follow him on Twitter, GordonChang.com.
	But for the purpose of this interview, for this discussion, explain to us the significance of the 100th anniversary of the Communist Revolution in 2049, and the concept of one belt, one road, and how all these things tie together, Gordon.
	On July 1st of this year, the Communist Party marked the centennial of its founding.
	2049 will be the centennial of the establishment of the People's Republic.
	And between now and then, there are certain dates that do have some significance for the Communist Party.
	But let's just take a look at what Xi Jinping said on July 1st.
	He is widely quoted as saying that we will crack skulls and spill blood for those who stand in our way.
	But there was something even worse that he said, which I thought was more ominous.
	He said, quote, the Communist Party of China and the Chinese people, with their bravery and tenacity, solemnly proclaim that the Chinese people are not only good at taking down the old world, But also in building a new one.
	Really what Xi Jinping was saying was that they were going to take down the existing Westphalian international system, which recognizes the sovereignty of states, and they were going to replace it with what we were talking about before, this notion that Chinese rulers had the mandate of heaven over Tian Xia.
	And by the way, Sam, for people who are interested, Don't read the official Chinese translation of Xi Jinping's words, because it's actually quite benign in a number of spots.
	You have to read a literal English translation of the Chinese, because really what that does is it shows the maliciousness of the Chinese system.
	We're dealing with a malicious ruler, dangerous, arrogant, bellicose, who wants to go out and kill people.
	And indeed, Xi Jinping has his own death toll.
	Which is now somewhere in the neighborhood of about four and a half million.
	So, just as with the Palestinian Authority, do not read the English language version of their statements.
	You have to read the original Arabic, because they are very, very different.
	Let's go a little bit deeper into the One Belt One Road.
	For me, this plan divides the world from the point of view of Beijing into enemies to be subdued and then client states or satrapies or tributary nations that will be simply vassals.
	Is that an oversimplification?
	How does One Belt, One Road work?
	What is the global vision for China as it looks at the world coming up to the 100th anniversary of the Communist Revolution?
	Yeah, the The Belt and Road Initiative, as it's now called, really started out as two initiatives.
	There was a belt, and these were announced in September 2013.
	There was a belt, which was to connect the east coast of China to Europe, and there was a road, which was a water route connecting both locations, east coast of China and Europe.
	Since then, Belt and Road has been extended around the world.
	And they've added the digital Silk Road, which started out life in 2015 or so as a separate plan, but was incorporated into Belt and Road.
	So Belt and Road is really an attempt to build the infrastructure to tie the world to China.
	Now, this gets a little bit complicated.
	I've never really been too worried about Belt and Road, largely because, you know, I practice law in Hong Kong.
	I didn't do infrastructure work, but my firm did.
	And I can tell you that all of the economically justifiable projects in the world were being handled by the private sector.
	What China is doing is building the infrastructure that nobody else wanted to.
	And subsidizing it below market rates.
	Yes.
	There is a danger, though, and that is we have seen what's called debt trap diplomacy, because these projects are not economically justifiable for the most part.
	But what China has been able to do was to use its position as a creditor to take over control of facilities.
	So, for instance, it took control of Hanban Tota, which is a port in Sri Lanka.
	We know that China has used its Colombo International Container Terminal, also in Sri Lanka, for military purposes.
	Djibouti, China's really only offshore military installation, is in a country that has a debt to China That is probably in excess of 100% of its gross domestic product.
	So that's no coincidence.
	But the reason why I get really worried about Belt and Road is because of the Bahamas.
	Yes.
	In the Bahamas, a Hong Kong firm is pouring something like $3 billion, maybe a little bit more, into the Freeport container port.
	It's also, there's a Chinese investment in the Bahamas in Abaco Islands.
	The Abaco port is completely without economic justification.
	The Freeport one, which is in construction, probably isn't going to work because it's far too big and misconceived from the beginning.
	And I'm worried that we could end up with two Chinese naval bases in the Bahamas, one of them 87 miles from Palm Beach.
	That's why we've got to be concerned about Belt and Road.
	Even though this is a plan which is misconceived, it has geopolitical benefits, which pose a military threat Let me share a story with you.
	And that threat is direct and it's near.
	Let me share a story with you.
	I was invited to give a speech, a life at Kay in the Bahamas.
	And on the drive from the airport to this very shishi resort where Sean Connery used to live, we drove past this wire fence for miles, this 12-foot high fence, And I asked the person escorting us, what is that?
	And he said, oh, that's the new resort and casino complex being built by the Chinese government.
	And I said, Okay.
	Why's he got a 12 foot fence around it?
	Well, because nobody from here is allowed to work there.
	And they ship in 4000 Chinese workers to build this facility.
	This is on a little island in the Bahamas, Gordon.
	Yes.
	And that's why we've got to be concerned.
	You know, you look around the Caribbean, Jamaica is become a Chinese colony, in a sense.
	Cuba, in the news recently, That's dotted with a number of Chinese installations.
	And China is one of the two main backers to Cuba, the other being Venezuela.
	But Venezuela has one main backer, and that's China.
	And in Cuba is Lourdes, which during the Cold War was the Soviet Union's biggest listening post outside of the Soviet Union.
	Well, now it's China's.
	And so there they're listening to every phone call, every Zoom call, every call whatsoever.
	In the United States from 50 miles west of Havana.
	Two last questions, talking to Gordon Chang.
	Please follow him on Twitter, Gordon G. Chang, and get his books, especially The Great U.S.-China Tech War.
	Number one, I love your Twitter feed.
	You have found your wings on your Twitter feed in recent weeks, Gordon.
	And I'm just going to read out two tweets to demonstrate the passion with which you tackle these issues.
	This was just before we went on air.
	Fight for your freedom.
	Fight for your family.
	Fight for your country.
	Fight China's regime.
	Next one.
	China's communists are coming for all peoples, especially those who insist on living in freedom.
	We will resist.
	Hashtag 1776 spirit.
	Thank you, Gordon.
	Tell us where that passion comes from.
	My dad grew up not far from Shanghai, across the Yangtze River, and he was a refugee from communism.
	He was fortunate to get a scholarship to Cornell.
	This was during the war.
	With everybody else, he was in Shanghai.
	He was driven west by the Japanese.
	Tens of millions of Chinese were pushed across the country.
	He got the Chinese scholarship from Chiang Kai-shek's nationalist government, flew over the hump, the Himalayas, then took a Liberty ship down to Australia, and from Australia to Los Angeles.
	And the reason for the detour was to avoid Japanese submarines.
	And he landed in the U.S.
	in February 1945, just before the end of the war.
	And he always told me about What life was like, he fortunately was not there during communist rule, because he escaped it.
	But if anything, you know, if that's anywhere it comes from, it comes from that.
	And my wife, Lydia, grew up in Hong Kong.
	And she, you know, she obviously a different experience.
	But she has taught me what it is to be an American.
	Because she didn't grow up, she grew up in a colony, Sam.
	And you don't really know freedom until you don't have it.
	You and your wife are champions.
	All Americans, immigrants or not, refugees or not, owe you a debt of gratitude.
	Please never stop doing what you do, Gordon.
	I have one last question to you and I apologize for my naivety as the child of those, of a father who till his dying day bore the scars of communist secret police torture on his body, physically the scars.
	Why are we doing any business with China?
	I mean, why is one American business?
	We're doing business with China.
	Is it impossible?
	Are we so intertwined that we allow this moral bankruptcy to continue in a nation that has political prisoners, that provide thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands of stories like your father's?
	Can't we cut the cord?
	This is slave labor camps, the forced organ harvesting.
	Is it too much to ask?
	Am I naive, Gordon?
	Yeah, there's a lot of reasons for that.
	So, you know, part of it was the hubris after the Cold War.
	I mean, and we Americans are generous.
	We believe that if we, you know, if we integrated China and other regimes into the international system, they would, they would become benign.
	Now, obviously, that didn't happen.
	And what's happened since then is that there are elements in US society, there's Wall Street, there's Walmart, Others that have a stake in the success of the Communist Party.
	And they're very powerful elements in our society.
	And that's why we Americans have got to take our country back.
	And this is existential because China tries to overthrow our government.
	And actually last year, it incited violence to do so.
	I think that we're going to have this struggle with Americans who support Beijing until, and this is what I'm afraid of, Until an American service person dies.
	And then everything will change.
	And we will cut those business and investment and education links.
	But by then it'll be too late.
	This is a much, much longer conversation.
	In the meantime, Gordon, Lydia, God bless you for doing what you do.
	We shall continue this conversation.
	Follow this man at Gordon G Chang.
	Read his books.
	I'm Sebastian Gawker, and you've been listening and watching One on One.

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