April 26, 2025 - Slightly Offensive - Elijah Schaffer
01:23:14
The LUCRATIVE Side of Programming and the SECRETS of the "Tech Right" | Guest: Hunter Isaacson
On this episode of Almost Serious, Hunter Isaacson dives into the fascinating world of app development, sharing insights on the creative and technical process behind building apps that connect millions. He also pulls back the curtain on how tech "bros" have infiltrated politics.Show more Additionally, Hunter explores the exciting and terrifying future of artificial intelligence and humanoid robots, discussing how these technologies could reshape our world - and how the 'Tech Right' is leveraging these tools for their own personal gain.
Special Guest: Hunter Isaacson
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#artificialintelligence #ai #robot #instagram #socialmedia #technology #trump #elonmusk Show less
If you look at the White House and if you look at the government as a whole, it seems like the PayPal Mafia has gotten into the government.
You've got Peter Thiel involved, you've got David Sachs, the cryptos are, you've got Elon Musk coming in.
Like this is very much like you're getting a lot of these people that were foundational in the internet, foundational and online payments that are now coming into the government.
In many cases, they've already been there.
Palantir has been working with the CIA for a very long time since the beginning.
We're in some kind of visual matrix and maybe we're trapped here or maybe we willingly boarded in here in order to like go through some tests, but we're definitely in a fake world for sure.
The whole problem with big balls is that people are like, we have a bunch of these kids who are now millionaires have infiltrated not just the tech world, but also the political world.
How did we get here?
unidentified
So, Hunter, let's talk about your story a little bit.
Everyone was talking about college from the time I was a kid.
So, it was very much like I kind of was in that track that I think everyone that was 17, 18 gets put in, which is like go to college, find something to major in, get a job, start your life.
So, I was basically just doing that.
And I was, you know, let's say I loved high school and then I went to college.
And in the six months break before college started, I started my first app.
So, it was like I had this unique experience where I had an extra kind of extra semester, extra gap semester before I started school.
So, I had an idea for an app and started building that idea.
That idea failed ultimately, but it was like the first time that I had built something that, you know, I had like actually worked really hard on.
And I had like done the design and really cared about that.
I really cared about the product.
But like the app wasn't good, but I had like really was in that position of like trying and failing.
And then by the time college came around in January of that year, this was now January of 2018, I was already like checked out.
Like I was like in the back of the classroom in college being like, I don't want to be here.
That's, you know, thank you for that because I have to let you know, not only did I develop full-blown alcoholism during that time, but I also developed a technology addiction like I've never had before.
I did give up the drinking every day thing, but the phone is still a problem.
I don't remind you guys, by the way, if you want to support the show, we don't have a quarter million signups, but you can sign up at ElijahSchaefer.locals.com.
And that is our community.
Someone did develop that.
I think that was a few developers plus like Dave Rubin, some seed money.
That's a whole tech startup.
But people want to know how you can get in touch with me.
I can get social media.
It's free to join.
You just sign up.
You get a part of the community.
You get this show early.
Sometimes you wonder where our shows are at.
Like this is released on YouTube one week, then Rumble the next, and it's on X.
And you never know who's doing what when.
Right there, ElijahSchafer.locals.com.
Don't forget to join.
I'm here with Hunter and we're talking about this.
So I know that you've been a lot more successful, you know, but a lot of people would say 250,000.
So I was, I built Zoom University and I was just working in tech.
Like I was just working as a designer.
Like my main like trade that I started with was just being a product designer.
So I was working with like Fortune 500 companies, helping them design like mobile checkout for Gen Z, you know, like kind of like helping, you know, different people consulting, realized I didn't want to do consulting.
It wasn't fun.
I didn't want to be around big companies.
And then it was like this perfect like universe moment where I had a recruiter that just came to me and recruited me to join a company.
It was a very early stage company at the time, built by the guy that was the former president of Musicly, who sold it to Byte Dance for a billion dollars to create TikTok.
When in this point do you feel like you've reached success?
And maybe you don't feel like that today, but where is it when you go, damn, like I've actually, I'm not just like a seed fund fund finding, you know, startup looking kind of developer.
Like I've actually, I have a reputation.
I have a resume.
Like I can show you that I'm one of the top developers here as an individual.
So it was after, you know, after Wink and after that whole era, you know, I was working on a, I was working on a project with a handful of friends of mine and we had seen that Instagram had just dropped the ability for anyone to post links.
This was end of 2021, I believe.
And we were all like, okay, well, this is major.
We have to build something.
This is a huge feature.
And we thought everyone saw it.
Like, you know, me and all my like little app friends were like, everyone's going to see this opportunity.
Everyone's going to see it.
So we had the idea, like, let's build an anonymous messaging app on top of Instagram.
Like, you know, Yik Yak, you know, Sarah, Ask FM, apps that came, you know, before we were just like, well, there's this new acquisition channel via Instagram links.
No one's done this.
At the same time, nobody knew how to post a link on Instagram at the time.
Like nobody understood you had to like, you know, tap the little stickers and then tap link and then paste the link and then frame the link.
It was a very complicated like four-step process in order to do it.
And we basically just thought that everyone would build this.
So we focused all of our attention on building an anonymous messaging app.
It was originally called Ask.fun.
Did not take off as ask.fun.
We rebranded it to NGL and NGL went number one in the app store June of 2022.
We did 100 million users in the first couple of months.
It was like very, very quick.
After six months of no one using it, keep in mind, right?
So it was like, right, no, it's one of those things, right?
But the problem with entrepreneurs are the ones that are the doers, right?
It's like, forget you have to have the idea and the action plan.
Where do you come up with these ideas?
Is it a group thing?
Do you go to like, is it like a writer's where they, you know, you're your musician and you have a producer writing the music for you and you just sing it?
I mean, the ideas, it really just depends, honestly.
Like, I'd say like with a lot of my apps, we just come up with them, me and whoever I'm building it with.
Like, it's just like, I'll look at, you know, something, like a new feature that maybe Apple unveils or in NGL's case, Instagram.
And then like, it's just me going back and forth with like my guys internally and just figuring out like, what is the way we package this feature?
And then I'm the one that has to figure out how it is, how it's designed, the branding, the copy, the way like the, just the general vibe and the aesthetic of the app, like everything people see, like it's what I deal with.
And then we focus on like, how do we just elicit the right emotions, right?
Because it's like, all we're really doing with apps is just like, you're just triggering specific, you know, specific emotions in your brain, specific chemicals to go off to like give you a feeling.
Like that's why we scroll on Instagram, we scroll on TikTok.
It's like all the same types of things.
So we figure out like what the emotion is going to be.
In the case of NGL, the emotion was very strong that like when you saw your friend get anonymous messages, the FOMO was really intense that you wanted your anonymous messages for yourself too.
And when you would see that your friend had posted the link and then like a handful of replies, it would give like the user that feeling of, oh, this is cool.
This is like validated.
And that, and then they would go and post the link, which would then continue the spread over and over again.
So you look at this more of like a creative venture or a technical, like, what I mean is like you have a good idea and all of a sudden you're just like, oh, hey, you know, I really want to fix a problem in the world.
Or are you guys looking at it like maniacal?
Like, all right.
The algorithm.
People like to click on these types of things and we're going to try to attract them and we see people like to each other and send new, but they don't have a secure way over instagram so we can link it like what is that process?
Because I don't.
I don't feel like the average person knows why we have so many apps, why they keep getting developed and who's coming up with these ideas.
Honestly, I think some apps are more maniacal and just like trying to target like a, like a base emotion and just like exploit it.
But I mean, in my case, i'm always looking for just like psychology things, like like what do people like, what do they not like?
You know what's the response to something?
You know like how do you find those triggers?
Um, and then, like I really want to solve like actual problems and you know, with NGL at the time, I think, like you know the problem, the problem that I kind of saw in the marketplace was like young people were not sharing their real opinions, like this was a big problem.
You remember 2021, 2022 it was the Overton Window was totally different.
You know, people were not speaking publicly about what they thought about anything in society um, and we lived in like a very like yeah, like a very like a peer-pressured world where young people felt really scared to communicate.
So I think Ngl, like also came out at the right time where, like the, the sentiment in the population was like we want to be able to like, speak freely.
And Ngl is all about, like you know, you know, ask me anything, anonymous questions, tell me your opinion about me or about you know anything.
I mean people should go download them if they sound interesting.
But you know, what I want to get into is a little bit of you know, what it is that you're seeing are the problems and also the solutions in tech right now, because I feel like maybe you agree with me, I think tech has solved as many, or even maybe less, solutions than it's, that it's created problems.
I think that every time you create a solution, it opens up a new problem and then someone else has to go and figure it out, and that's why we have so many businesses stacked on top of each other, and if you make it really easy or make it faster to build a business, then more problems get solved faster and then more problems get opened up because of the solutions.
So this is actually a tricky question and maybe you don't have an answer to it.
But right, the internet brought us and connected us all together, but then it also gave us internet and I know a lot of people have have it.
Have a difference of opinion, we're not going to get into the conversation here, but people always say that anytime something gets invented, people always figure out how to do two things, abuse people on it and figure out how to access or sexual contact.
Doesn't matter what it is, whether it's text or whatever, even books right, immediately erotica, whether you can get a etching on the wall and you start drawing boobs.
Obviously, people are using it to now engage and communicate in a digital way.
Right, that is maybe.
Maybe my generation still keeps the physical contact, but your generation, gen z, they seem to have gone completely off grid.
Their Relationships are almost entirely virtual.
How do you feel about sort of playing a part in developing that technocratic transition and profiting off of it to where you're sort of like adding to the idea that people are communicating?
I mean, I'm talking sexually, they're having relationships through apps like the ones you've developed because they are.
Like, if you look at Instagram, like, it is a dating app.
I think the TikTok also, you know, you could, you could make an argument.
It's entertainment/slash dating.
I mean, with Gen Z, yeah, you're right.
Like, when COVID happened, everyone went online, right?
So, all of like, you know, I was 20, 21 when that happened, like interrupted my college experience.
I mean, ended my college experience completely for me.
And a lot of other friends of mine just had their lives upended completely because we went from socializing IRL and socializing with our friends on campus or, you know, going out to just like multiple years, depending on the state you lived in.
I was in California, multiple years of just like, you cannot do that now.
So I do think that like, yeah, the online online connections have like gone so far to like, this is now the real world in a sense.
Like people will embarrass themselves in the real world to like get attention online.
So it's like, which world is the real world in that case?
Like if you care more about one or the other, what is real?
He was just like literally assaulting people, like knocking their hats off, pushing them, calling them, you know, foul language.
And he gets arrested because in Philippines, they have a law that is if you intentionally annoy people or harass them, that it's considered real life harassment online.
So it actually escalates it because think about this.
If I try to humiliate you in front of somebody, that's not illegal.
But if I'm humiliating you to elicit attention for me, but I'm going to embarrass you at your expense and put you on the internet to millions of people.
Well, now I've just committed a crime because I have now taken you and I've taken your decency and your reputation and compromised it for my profit.
So I profited off of your humiliation.
And a lot of countries are developing these laws to try to combat this stuff.
It's not a very American law, but I understand their culture.
Now he's possibly facing 10 years in prison because he wants, like you said, he wanted to get those clicks.
Yeah, my apps are like communication, social networking, and finance.
Like I don't deal with the content side of it.
Like a photo video app is a nightmare to deal with because of the censorship.
And because like, you know, being on the other side of it, right?
Being in the side of like there's hundreds of millions of people using your platform, you deal with so many illicit actors like all the time.
You just have, you just, it's just part of what it is.
Like there are people that are going to use your services to do bad things.
So you have to just like snip that behavior.
And then sometimes in the case of Facebook, right, like it gets ideological and then they just go too far and then they have to reel it back in and then you kind of piss off everybody.
So it's a hard position to be in.
It's why I've never really built like photo video type apps.
It's just, it's very, very hard to censor the bad stuff.
And look, I want to ask you about the laws around this kind of stuff because I'm really interested in talking to you a little bit fusing politics and tech.
I think you don't have politics without tech and you can't have tech anymore without politics.
Talking about the back doors that the NSA got into to signal.
I mean, this is becoming a very serious issue, including the fact that myself, I actually have a FOIA request.
Actually, have been under investigation by the FBI several times, one for wiretapping.
They backdoor got my iCloud password from Apple under a Patriot Act warrant that was under domestic terrorism inquiry because I was documenting January 6th.
And then they lifted and went into the back door, got into all my apps, lifted all my communications and cryptic communications.
Meaning, the limits of where the government's coming in, we'll talk about.
But as we get into that, guys, I want to remind you, you know, we're obviously not monetized here.
We try to maintain this entire platform, this entire network based upon non-big tech money.
And that gives us freedom to talk about whatever we want.
Because we're not going to tell our guests there's things they can't talk about.
In fact, we also don't censor on Rumble as well.
So make sure that you check out our Rumble link.
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You know, so the links in the screen and the description, by the way, I'm supposed to tell you guys that.
So one of the things that I want to talk about that I think you could give insight into is whether I like it or not, and it kind of pisses me off, I'm not going to lie, Hunter, is that the tech bros are taking over politics.
They were, of course, they had the problem with criminal activity, with CP, with different things that all apps are plagued with.
And they did fight and remove criminal activity.
But the Five Eyes, the Western world, that wasn't enough.
They wanted to subpoena and get people's personal communications.
And so, as you know, I'll just summarize it.
They baited and faked and lured him into France for a fake meeting with the president and arrested him from the Five Eye International Security Service, blackmailed him, claimed they would charge him with the crimes.
Like he's going to get charged with CP.
He's going to get charged with racketeering.
He's going to get charged with organized white-collar crime and general slander and harassment if he didn't then open up the back door and allow the world governments to sort of get into the app.
Let's start there and talk about that.
How autonomous really is technology right now is communication and how much of it really is just a illusion that we're, you know, have freedom to conversate and talk versus the government is really the one controlling things behind the scenes.
I think it depends on the app and I think it depends on how big the app gets.
In the case of Telegram, right?
Like I feel like as Telegram got larger and larger, then more important people started using the service and using it because of like they wanted to not use iMessage or they didn't want to use Facebook Messenger.
So as it gets bigger, certain people move on to the platform.
Then the governments are like, well, we need to go take out this activity because Telegram, a lot of Telegram channels were used to plan protests, to plan, you know, international, you know, uprisings all over the world.
I think the tech bros, I mean, if you look at the White House and if you look at the government as a whole, it seems like the PayPal Mafia has gotten into the government, you know, from my, from what I see, you know, you have got, you've got Peter Thiel involved, you got David Sachs, the crypto czar, you've got Elon Musk coming in.
Like this is very much like you're getting a lot of these people that were foundational in the internet, foundational and online payments and foundational and digital infrastructure that are now coming into the government.
In many cases, they've already been there.
Palantir has been working with the CIA for a very long time since the beginning.
And then now you have like new entrants like Anderol getting more involved in like the government.
I mean, Anderol, the founder was the guy who made Oculus, who was bought by Facebook.
So I think the tech bros have come into the government because the government, you know, a lot of the government is very inefficient and wastes a lot of money.
And I think that's where Doge comes into effect.
But like Doge is the result, I think, of just like a lot of other things that have already been going on.
And tech bros have very much been in the government for a while now, but now it's just more out there for people.
So, okay, so on the outside, that sounds like a good thing to the average person.
You know, you have these individuals who are controlling payments.
They're making things efficient.
They're calling the Department of Government efficiency.
But then you mentioned TL, you mentioned Pound Tier.
So what is the danger of private citizens?
This is very capitalist, right?
Turning point USA would be like, capitalism is the best and big government sucks.
Let's get these private corporations in.
What do you see as the benefits of the tech bros coming in versus maybe some of the more auspicious or stranger aspects that we should be aware of or keep our eyes open for?
No, I think the tech bros coming in is good because a lot of what goes on in the government is not optimized at all.
Like what we've seen over the last couple of months, right?
Like there's a mine where they're putting all the social security papers and the people are climbing down the mine, right?
It's so crazy.
But things of that nature, and you just, you just, you know, extrapolate it out across the whole government.
And it's, I'm sure that there's stuff like that everywhere.
So like when you look at like bringing in the tech bros, bringing in just like private industry, it can actually make these systems work the way that they're supposed to work in a free market, right?
Like the government doesn't work like a company because the government doesn't have to.
The government can spend money whenever they want.
They can waste money.
They can have lots of fraud and abuse and all that stuff.
But like a private company that's like a tech company can't have that, right?
You have to be lean.
You have to make sure that you make good decisions.
You have to build good systems at scale.
You have to like make really easy processes when things are broken.
Like it's the total opposite of the government, right?
So I think that what we're seeing right now is like the efficiency, like the government efficiency, you know, project that's going on with Doge.
It's ultimately just going to automate and streamline a lot of the things in the government that I think we're all sick and tired of.
I mean, there's no reason, for example, like I have my iPhone right here.
Why can't I scan my face and then cast my ballot to vote?
Or why can't I use my face ID to get my new driver's license from the DMV?
Why is it so disconnected?
It's like we've moved so advanced with the technology on the private side, but the government's just lagged 30, 40, 50 years behind.
Now, the question is, is that intentional, right?
Which it probably is, in order for them to, you know, use the system that they already have to make money or do whatever they're already doing.
You know, there's a status quo that they want to be upheld.
And that's why having the tech bros come in, having Elon Musk come in, it's shaking things up.
Okay, so I'm a little bit afraid because my family's in Australia and they're moving towards a technocratic authoritarian government where we saw during COVID.
During COVID.
Yeah.
And one of the things that they're testing now is like this digital ID.
On one hand, look, I think that sounds kind of cool.
You know, they're big on tap and all this stuff comes across like it's making our lives better.
And some things do, right?
Like, I mean, I'm glad my wife doesn't have to go walk down to the river to wash our clothes.
She has a washing machine.
And they say that obviously a lot of the best technology was built by lazy people who just didn't want to do things the long way and they made life better.
But sometimes it feels like maybe we're going a little too far.
Digital ID, again, it's like, why couldn't we have our ID on our phones?
Okay, that does make sense, except what we saw during Australia was that all of a sudden then they created a ID system, a vaccine ID system.
And that ID system was linked to your digital ID.
And you couldn't, it wasn't like that in the United States.
You couldn't go into a grocery store, right?
You couldn't eat outside.
You couldn't even go more than five kilometers from your house without written requests from the government.
And the point was it was all linked to a database.
It's a lot very similar to what we're seeing in China, right, with their social credit system.
Do you think that the tech bros are opportunists and are just developing and it's the government who's sort of using these things for bad?
Or do you think there's some sort of a synergy going on where, like you said, the government is funding some of this tech stuff like with DARPA or with Operation Paperclip and moving in this direction and the tech bros are benefiting, making money and getting rich?
Or do you think this is just a coincidence that, you know, a lot of the tech is going towards mechanisms that further control us?
Example being, you know, we all have, I have two tracking devices, you know, right here.
I mean, literally, your phone's off and all of a sudden it knows what you're doing.
So this is a little more esoterical, but do you think we're living in a technological simulation?
Like something like the Matrix, that we are in a program?
Or do you think that we're being sucked into a program currently?
Like they're going to create the metaverse because you see a kid, you know, like just sitting there with in an airport with his Oculus on and he's got his phone and he's like, he's not living in this world, right?
He's living in the metaverse.
And a lot of people are realizing the dangers of like, you know, you think the world's falling apart, everything sucks.
Then you just turn your phone off and then like suddenly, suddenly everything's fine.
Everything's fine.
So yeah, what do you think?
Do you think that we are in a simulation theory or do you think that they're trying to create a simulation and pull us in?
I mean, I think we are in a simulation already, but I don't think it's a, I think it's a simulation that we can't understand.
Like it's not like, you know, I don't think when you die, someone pulls the headphones off you and pulls the goggles off you and it's like, here you are.
I think it's more of like our like, you know, human beings, we're like multi-dimensional, you know, souls.
You know, when you go to sleep, you can go anywhere you want and be any person you want to be.
And time doesn't move the same, you know, when we're asleep.
And I think that we're in some kind of visual matrix and maybe we're trapped here or maybe we willingly poured it in here in order to like go through some test.
So, I mean, the people that I'm around that are high up in tech, they all believe in God.
They're not a specific denomination.
You know, they could be Jewish.
They could be Catholic.
It could be, you know, Buddhist, just, you know, general spiritual people.
But everyone I talk to, they believe there's a God.
They believe there's a master creator that built everything, that created our whole simulation.
That's why like, you know, you look at leaves and then you look at like your skin and then you look at like, you know, water and then you look at all these different elements.
They all look the same.
You know, branches from trees look like the inside of your body with like the, with like your blood vessels and everything.
So clearly there's like a connection point.
There's some kind of like, there's some master architecture going on here of like someone created everything.
I think that's like across the board of the people that I know in tech.
Everyone does believe in that.
But I've heard, like, yeah, a lot of people think we're in a simulation and we just don't know what kind of simulation it is.
I mean, a lot of it is like, you know, a lot of like numerology, astrology, a lot of like, you know, going esoteric, going into like occult symbolism, like understanding like, you know, how the world works.
You know, I think, I think a lot of these people are very successful.
They've understood those things to be successful.
So they have this understanding that just like, yeah, there's a higher power and we're in a simulation because everything connects, right?
You know, we're in a simulation, I think, because a lot of times you'll be thinking about, you know, your mom and then your mom calls you, right?
Is that how did that happen?
Were you calling to her through some ether?
You know, how does she know that you were thinking about her?
And vice versa.
It happens with lots of other people in life.
You know, someone thinks about you, they reach out to you, or you know, you tell yourself, I'm going to get all green lights on the way to work and then it's all green lights.
But you tell yourself, oh, I don't want to be late.
Then it's all red lights.
Like we are controlling the simulation to some effect.
And I think that like, if you just are very aware and you look around, you'll start to see the cracks and you'll start to realize that like, yeah, like it's like, this is like the Truman show, but everybody is Truman.
And that's what's kind of interesting about it.
We all are in control and we're also like the main character and we're building the world all together.
The problems that I like to address are problems that I think my generation faces.
For like, for example, my first apps that went viral were about loneliness.
I think my generation was super lonely.
Like the average person has very few amounts of friends.
So I built apps specifically for people to make friends.
And, you know, tens of millions of people are, you know, became friends because of that process.
And then with NGL, I thought that, you know, people were not speaking their mind and people were not able to share their opinions.
And like, you know, that's why that app did so well, the specific time that it did.
And I think that was a big problem for my generation.
And then now with my FinTech app bags, I think young people really struggle with making money and with personal finance and with investing and the complexity around it.
And I want to address that problem as well.
And then I'm just going to address more problems.
So yeah, I want to be looked back as a good guy for sure.
You know, obviously I got started out mostly like talking about, you know, trying to defeat the Democrats, right?
That's where I came from.
And the longer I've been in this, the more I realize it's the same people controlling the Democrats and the Republicans.
Maybe different sects of the same people, but it's the same type of people, right?
These cabals, these, these, these groups of people, same, same, sometimes the same people controlling both sides of World War II, even right.
And sometimes I, you know, in my attempt to do good, I wonder, you know, I'm trying to let people know what's going on in the world.
My intentions are good, but I think I sometimes might be adding to the division, might be adding to some of the problems with what I do.
And it's a it's a moral, you know, issue that I face sometimes where I wake up and go, is was what I'm doing really helping, or is it kind of like people who really want to help treat disease and create medicine, but the real problem is the food we're eating and what's going on.
And we're sort of actually helping those people continue to do evil because we're like treating the symptoms of a bigger problem.
Sometimes if like tech is doing that, it's like we're creating solutions to symptoms, but the real issue is something much deeper.
It's our lack of dependency on God.
It's our lack of communication in the real world.
And we're sort of just putting band-aids on that.
Do you, do you ever feel like, or do you ever see common moral problems that people like yourself with the right intentions confront when developing technology, sort of like I see in media?
And I think that's it's a good point you're saying like, you know, sometimes when you shine a spotlight on something, you know, yeah, it's good because like you're showing people, but then also now everyone's looking at that really negative thing, right?
Like you said, so sometimes like it's not a direct positive outlook because now it's just like there's more spotlight on negativity and now everyone's getting all riled up.
So maybe not helpful.
That same thing happens with tech, honestly.
I've seen lots of entrepreneurs try, you know, different kinds of apps that, you know, were, you know, not good for the world.
And, you know, in some cases, they did well.
And in some cases, they didn't.
I think that like I've kind of gone through a journey myself of just like trying to understand that I'm very capable of building these apps and building things that go viral, but like I have to do it for the right things, right?
I don't want to build apps that make people do bad stuff or encourage bad stuff.
I want to solve problems at the end of the day.
So, but I think that what you're saying is absolutely true, especially in media and especially last couple of years for sure.
Not everybody was even aware of everything going on, you know, until the internet, until social media.
Now everyone knows everything that's going on at all times.
And it's, you know, you're right.
You turn the phone off and then you calm the town.
But this guy developed this decentralized network.
I obviously wouldn't admit to have using Bitcoin back when I was in high school in 2010 to buy ecstasy from Europe on the Silk Road because God forbid I'd ever do anything illegal.
But people did do that.
Sometimes people did that when Bitcoins were only a couple hundred dollars, you know, and that's crazy to have spent a couple hundred dollars.
Some people did that on ecstasy when those are right now worth $500,000.
Yeah, he's got to feel like a freaking idiot there.
But Ross, of course, kind of like the Telegram founder, got held liable for the crimes that were committed on the app.
And, you know, I kind of want to get your opinion on this because, you know, politicians get held responsible for the state of the economy for that they didn't necessarily impact.
They get held up for the crime they may not be involved in.
I mean, you know, a senator from Florida gets, you know, responsible for the cleanup in, you know, Hurricane Katrina or something like that.
Why is the federal government not doing more?
And it's like, well, what am I doing?
I'm just, you know, a Florida senator.
Yeah.
And I think we've unilaterally agreed, or at least as a society, that it's okay to hold the government responsible for the things that are going on in the country, even if they're not directly involved.
Their inaction holds them criminally responsible.
But there's no accountability for the government.
What do you think we should be doing to keep people like you, these tech developers and your friends accountable?
Like, what's arresting people like Ross correct?
Like, what do you think we should be doing to have collective understanding that maybe technology isn't just looking out for itself, but it's actually working for us?
You know, it's very hard to set up a framework where you can have that work every single time.
In the case of Ross, I mean, I'm not super familiar with his situation, but I, you know, obviously knew the story, you know, followed it to some degree, glad that he got out.
I think that it was unfair for him to get put away for that long.
So, but, but that's the, that's the same logic, right?
So if they're trying to do something, if they have safeguards in place, if they have, you know, ways of getting rid of this harmful content or illegal activities, I think in that case, then no, you shouldn't be like, you know, penalized or punished or thrown in jail.
That's not going to help.
It would more be like, and oftentimes it's the tech company that needs the government's help in order to police some of this content because a lot of it's just illegal stuff.
So it's like, that's when it gets into like the enforcement of like, you know, once you report these people, do they actually get removed?
You know, are these bad actors taken care of?
And oftentimes they're not.
So I think then the platforms continue to be like railed against when it's like these platforms are trying really, really, really hard to censor the right things.
And I feel like that's something that I didn't realize until like I was in the position of like, okay, I now understand what's going on to like a small degree.
So this brings up an interesting conversation about then what do we choose to censor?
Because what's illegal universally, maybe we'd all agree on, you know, exploitation of children abuse is like universally wrong.
Not all cultures agree what a child is, right?
So, I mean, I think in Mexico, the age of consent is 14.
We're not going down that discussion.
And obviously, you know, in less maybe policed, you know, Muslim countries, right?
You have the Bachi Bazi or whatever, where young boys are sort of given up for exploitation.
And you end that conundrum where the U.S. military is in Afghanistan and they were told to allow older men to exploit the younger boys.
And you hear stories of these guys like, you know, walking into a room and seeing this statutory situation where I know it's not a statutory.
It's probably worse than that.
But you see this sort of manipulation.
And they were told, look, you just got to kind of respect the way they do things.
So you kind of got to realize like not everyone is America.
And I kind of want to go into this idea of most of these tech companies are American.
Even if they're Canadian, they're North American, Canadian-American.
And we're having a problem where, you know, you have MPs in England, you know, having these strict speech laws, Australia as well, these hate speech laws, where then they want these companies to, you know, well, hey, you censor what's illegal and wrong.
Well, now we've said that, you know, saying that all speech is free speech is wrong or that flying your nation's flag is wrong and that we want you to delete and prosecute these people.
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All right.
So Hunter, we're talking a little bit about the dilemma that I feel like is going on here with technology.
And we talked a little bit about censorship.
And I think that it's, it kind of reminds me of the Patriot Act, where even now with arresting students for anti-Semitism, you know, a lot of people see today, I'll use a more relevant issue.
They go, oh, you know, we don't like Hamas and we don't want these foreigners who aren't American citizens walking around supporting terrorist organizations.
You go, yeah, but is that our right here?
Is that a First Amendment right?
And they go, yeah, but who cares?
We're arresting the people we don't like.
We don't like Muslim terrorists.
Okay, fine.
So, okay, I don't like them either.
However, right now, the government is saying that we can suspend the First Amendment in order to attack an enemy that they have said that we don't like.
Well, what happens when a president comes in that has a different enemy that they don't like that they want to use the same law?
And let's say, like Biden, who said that white supremacy was the greatest threat.
And all of a sudden, white supremacist just means Republican.
That's 50% of the country.
And now he's weaponizing the DOJ and the FBI, like we saw with January 6th, or we saw even on Trump's home.
He's weaponizing the enforcers in the law to now attack American citizens.
Talk to me a little bit about this, how you as a developer and like a tech company figures out what that is and the complication of like our rights here as Americans sort of feeling like they're pushed down based on what tech companies want.
Yeah, the First Amendment online, I think it was a really, really big issue.
I mean, prior to Elon buying X, there really was no place where you could just share your opinions freely.
I remember I would just, I remember when Threads came out, I just went onto it and I was like, you know, let me just like try basic things and let's see if I get banned.
And immediately was banned.
Like just like, just you can't, you couldn't step out of line.
So it was pretty bad.
I now think because of X, there's more willingness to like, people can talk and they can talk now also on meta products as well.
So I feel like we're kind of in this point where like we're past the worst of the censorship only in my opinion, only because that like that group of people that wanted to censor just lost like a lot of power, right?
That's really all it was.
If they had maintained power, you know, meta would not have changed their guidelines, right?
That just wouldn't have happened.
It's just an example of a lot of companies are standing down because, you know, people like you, people like me, people, you know, everyone else, you know, cares about free speech.
You know, people care about that.
And I think that, you know, these companies kind of have to realize that when the overturned window shifts, they have to shift with it.
That's why we're seeing way more discourse online now.
It was, I think, a couple of years ago, you couldn't say anything.
Well, if you, if you just said that maybe Ukraine shouldn't be a NATO member, like maybe we shouldn't do that right now, people will be like, that's a Russian, that's Putin's talking point.
How much autonomy should tech companies have in local governments then?
Because I feel uncomfortable with an American company where their servers are based here and they're based in the United States going in and violating free speech in other countries.
Just like I would have a problem of, let's say, like ExxonMobil is enslaving Africans and abusing them.
I'd be like, well, just because that's illegal here, or like maybe, you know, Apple's using Foxconn and they're abusing their workers back in the day, maybe not as much now, or Nike, right, using slave labor like we saw with the Uyghurs or whatever.
It's like, well, okay, just because they're an American company and, you know, they're not enslaving Americans.
Why are our companies feel the right to go overseas and exploit other people?
Sometimes I feel like tech companies are sort of, they should be exemplifying American values and our liberties and say, look, if you're not going to respect, you know, the rights we believe come from God, which is life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, but more, more or less, you know, obviously guns are not really in their wheelhouse, but like they even in our country, like, you know, put a green gun, you know, in the texting because they don't want to have a gun.
And it's like, it's like, how much are these companies beholden to our American foundational laws versus how much do you think they really are having autonomy because they're private companies?
You know, it's, it's a, I think they're very beholden to American laws, but I also think that there is like a whole moral question of like with TikTok, for example, right?
You have a Chinese company.
Servers are in China and in America, but we're not fully sure, but they have data probably being shared between the Chinese company and the American branch.
I mean, do we like, you know, when our company has access to data in some other country?
Like, we don't really care, but maybe that country does care, right?
So it's like kind of, I think we have to just maybe just agree on free speech and have some kind of like, maybe it's like an internet constitution or just like a digital, you know, you know, digital rights where it's just like, hey, you can say what you want as long as you don't hurt people, as long as you don't exploit people.
But we should have like something that all the platforms agree to.
And I think that like, if you multiply it out, eventually it's going to have to happen because, you know, like other countries are going to get mad that we are policing their speech, just like we're mad that the Chinese government could be policing our speech via TikTok, right?
Same kind of process.
I think that it just continues.
I think private companies will have to just like come together and just agree on what are we going to agree is like the universal rights.
And I think, yeah, like life, liberty, pursuit of happiness is universal.
It's God given.
Everybody has that.
We should be able to come up with this pretty simple.
But so, you know, in terms of monetary success and just terms of career, you know, technology has allowed you as a young man to really achieve more than generations before you could over generations, right?
The amount of wealth you can accumulate, the amount of perceived wealth, as they call it, unrealized gains that you have in your future is something that I personally respect.
I'm an idiot and I chose media, which is a line of work that the more successful you are, at least on the right wing, the more punished you become, the more money you get taken away, actually, and the more you get demonetized and censored.
If I could have redone it, I probably would have chosen, I did genetic engineering in college, but I probably now.
Yeah, but I probably could have done something down that road and actually maybe not been a sadomasochist and do something on purpose that is punishment.
But obviously, I believe in what I do.
And so I don't want to, I don't want to be a Luddite.
I think technology is fascinating.
I don't think there's any way of escaping it at this point.
I think we are moving into a technological future.
But what is that technological future?
That's the question that people have.
Is technology going to work for us or are we going to work for the technology?
You know, I really believe, and I've said this before to friends of mine, I really believe that the replacement for the smartphone is the humanoid robot.
And what I mean by that is think of the ubiquity and like how everyone has an iPhone in their pocket, right?
That's 100% saturation.
If it's not an iPhone, it's an Android.
But walk around public.
Every single person has one.
Flashback 10 years ago, if you would have told someone, yeah, I just booked my flight on my phone, got my boarding pass and scanned it.
They'd be like, that's insane.
That's like a crazy concept.
That's an example of technology going to full saturation.
And when it goes full saturation, then we just start to replace core services with it because everybody has it.
I think the same thing is going to happen with robot robotics and AI.
I think that the humanoid robots are coming probably really, really soon.
And the first few versions really aren't going to be all that great, but very quickly, you're going to notice that like your house is cleaner and maybe you could have your food made and maybe your clothes are cleaned as well.
And slowly but surely these things that like occupy our time, just like we were occupied time doing things prior to the internet, like, you know, before there was Google Maps, you have to go online, MapQuest, or before that, you have to go find a map and pull over and like figure it out.
Like the way that our time was taken because the technology took the time away to just did the thing, same thing will happen with humanoid robots.
So 2045, dude, it's a different world.
Like it's a completely different world.
I think that it's like unrecognizable from where we are today.
You know, I think a lot of people get very frustrated when you're, you know, say you're at a restaurant and like, you know, the waiter doesn't come bring you your water fast enough and they get really frustrated.
I take a totally different approach.
I take the approach of, you know, this person shouldn't have to do that.
We should live in a world where you don't have to do that.
If you want to be at like a Michelin star restaurant and be a server, because that's going to be a thing in the future, then go do that.
But not everybody has to go do that.
You know, the average person has talents and skills that, you know, maybe they don't show the world, but their friends and family know that they're really good at.
So I think the world just goes back to like people have more time.
So new things replace our time.
And I think that that's could be like, you know, hobbies, interests, entertainment.
And then also with like humanoid robots, at some point, the robots are going to start building things for us.
Like think about taking a thousand Tesla robots, deploying them to a job site in Manhattan, and then being like, build a building.
They will build a building and they'll work 24-7, 365.
They will not stop in perfect precision.
They don't need anyone to monitor them.
And the building just gets built.
So like the future of like the Jetsons, the future that we see of these gorgeous buildings and that there's like greenery on the sides, like it's the future, right?
We think about the future and flying cars.
This is going to be created because we're building the thing that will make that world.
We're not going to make that world, but we're going to make the thing that does it.
I already think we're in some kind of techno-feudalist system.
And I actually think we're going to move in the opposite direction if the right people can steward humanity in that direction.
And like, I think that like there's the reason that people don't have a purpose and there's a crisis of purpose because I agree with you.
There's a major crisis of purpose.
We've stripped all the beauty out of the world completely.
Like you look at architecture, you look at how we used to build buildings and how beautiful they are and how it makes you feel when you walk into this, you know, gorgeous cathedral and it echoes and you feel really amazing about it and you feel inspired.
Like this is what we used to do.
Like humanity used to spend, you know, dozens and dozens of years building a building and caring about it, you know, and putting it in the center of a town and putting your family crest on it and having a different sense of purpose, which was more about like spreading love, spreading positivity and being human.
And we lost that completely over the last couple hundred years.
And now we're sitting here where like, yeah, like I love the meme.
It's like, you know, your parents say, go play outside.
And it's like the outside that they created.
And it's like a McDonald's here and like a Denny's here.
And it's like a road.
It's like, what the hell happened to society?
So a lot of this, I think the AI, and when I say the AI, the robotics side of the AI will just start building a more beautiful world.
And I think people will start to feel more inspired.
And then once it gets to a point where like, I can just talk with my AI robot team and be like, I want to build this building and I want to look like this.
And this is my idea.
And this is my, you know, and you just talk through it.
And they go do that.
Like multiply that out across, you know, having millions and millions and millions of these things.
We're going to live in a beautiful world again.
And I think it will kind of bring that purpose back and we'll get out of this weird season that we're in.
And so to conclude, you know, this sounds super creepy to people, but you know, I like all guys, rather than going to therapy, I either buy expensive things, drink alcohol, or smoke a cigar or something like that, which is like a real man.
Real, like a real man, um, anything except for therapy.
No, but I saw uh, sounds so bad, but she's a friend of mine, she's a really famous star, Eva Lovie.
I don't know if you know who that is.
I don't know, that's the right answer.
Yeah, he's like, I don't know, no, who that is.
Um, two terabytes on your hard drive would say the opposite.
Yeah, like no, but she stopped that many years ago, so she's like famous, but I mean, like, she's been like a friend, been on the show and stuff like that.
And I think she's a very nice woman, you know, ideologically, we're quite opposed, but but yet we still share a lot of the ideas of liberty and freedom and whatever.
And um, you know, like she kind of posted something that was like, Hey, try this out with Grok.
It's like this, this thing where you ask it like 10 questions and then tell me about myself and unleash the mask of who I am and then give me advice.
And I tried, I was on a plane for like, you know, flying back from El Salvador, and I just had a couple hours to kill.
So, I just like spent like an hour and a half on Grok doing this like puzzle thing.
I'm not gonna lie, man, that thing read me better than anybody has ever been able to diagnose me, knew exactly all my problems, which I'm afraid to admit to myself.
Yeah, and gave me like the most like candid and best advice I've gotten.
I haven't gotten that well good of advice from someone, and I, I actually felt like really depressed afterwards.
I go, AI just gave me more direction on my life, and it scared me, man.
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, because I've gone to therapists, I don't go to those people because I feel like it's a waste of money, but AI gave me the motivation to make some changes in my life.
That's, I'm being honest with you, yeah.
And, and that's like where it's not just like, oh, because I wanted to, you know, I'm lazy and I wanted to know that the answer to a math question is like AI gave me the direction I needed to run this company and even what to fix in my life.
Yeah, and I've been implementing those changes the last week and I've had more energy, I've been happier, I've been losing weight, I've been everything in a scary.
And I feel like it's very interesting because like, and then I used the AI just also to help with my businesses.
Like, I spent a couple hours the other day.
I was just like hanging out and I was talking to Grok and I was just trying to talk through different business ideas, different app ideas.
And then I had the AI just like deducing it and bringing it down to like the core and then finding the ways of like, how do we build this with like, we're going to build these three products.
What's the same thing that we have to build for all three of them?
How do we break it down?
What are the user acquisition channels that the competitors are using?
And I was just asking questions that normally would take me days to find the answers to online.
Like it would just be crazy.
And now I just got it immediately by talking with my phone.
So it's scary, but it's also like, this is V1 of a way, way more advanced.
Yeah, this is Grok just like three years literally going from just being like, yeah, the two plus two does equal four to then being like, hey, man, you're spiritually sick.
That's why, look, with what you're doing, in summary, you know, you've done some pretty incredible work.
I'm definitely impressed.
I already mentioned, like, you know, when I want to hang out, you know, outside of, you know, work and interviews, and they were just kind of kind of getting to know each other.
I like podcasts and interviews because I think it's fascinating.
A lot of podcasts, I still run some over there as well that are, you know, more just like chatty or whatever, but you know, one-on-ones, hearing people's thought process on what's really going on is actually how we communicate today.
And people wonder why there's so many podcasts.
Well, it's like why there were so many books back in the day.
If you, you know, if there's anything last words that you wanted to say, you know, you've gone through from nothing, from like rags to riches, basically, legitimately.
What is some advice you would have, particularly for young people, particularly young men who are feeling lost, maybe where you were back before you had all this, before you had the clothes and the money and the lifestyle and the knowledge, right?
You've rapidly matured.
Where can they begin to start improving their lives if they want to be successful in development or even just in a career that's, you know, like again, they're Gen Z and they don't know what to do.
Do you have any advice for people on how they can get to success like where you're at?
I think if you want to be successful, you have to work backwards.
So you have to kind of start at where do you want to be?
And this could be like lifestyle.
So if I was talking to young guys, I would say, figure out who you want to be in 10 years and describe the exact life you want to at T. What kind of house do you live in?
What kind of car do you drive?
What kind of clothes do you wear?
Like just get it really, really specific and spend lots of time thinking about that to make a really clear mental picture of like what the future life that you want is.
That's what I did when I was a kid.
When I was, you know, when I was 15, I had, you know, fake versions of the watches that I have now.
And I had, you know, not, you know, not nice clothes, but I would style them in a way that I would want to look nice and proper.
And like I was wearing something expensive.
Like I was embodying the character that I wanted to be.
And I was thinking about what I want, who I want to be at 25.
And I was 15 at the time.
And I was very, very specific with who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do.
And I knew I wanted to do tech, but I didn't know how I was going to do tech.
I knew I wanted to do something great because I had figured out my lifestyle that I had imagined.
So if you're at the very beginning, you got to start with like, go to the end and don't go to like, you know, you at 90, right?
Like, let's start with like 10 years.
Like, that's a lot of time or five years even to figure out what you want.
And once you figure out what you want, you crystallize it.
Then you figure out, okay, if I want, you know, this type of house, this type of car, what kind of jobs are people doing or what kind of business are people building in order to like live there?
Like just start looking at like, what are these rich people doing that live in these crazy houses?
And then you'll start to isolate, okay, there's specific industries.
Let me figure out then inside the industry, what's a skill set that I can go for.
And so I tell young people, you got to focus on high value skills where someone knows you as like the guy, right?
Like in my case, like I was just known as like the product design guy for apps.
Like, you know, that was what I was known before I was even successful.
In my circle of friends in the industry, it was like, if somebody wanted to design an app, they'd come to me because they knew that that was what I was really good at.
I had that skill that other people didn't necessarily have.
And what you do is if you can find that specialized skill after you've done all these different things, right?
After you've done the dream life, figured out the industries that make people successful, then you start testing skills.
You find the one that you like.
And then all you need to really do is like find people that are complementary to you to fill out the skill tree, right?
If I can design, I need someone that can market and do engineering, you know, but if I'm an engineer, I need a designer and a marketer.
So it's like everyone needs these other people.
So if you can be one of those guys and just have that skill and then do your networking, eventually someone's going to call you and they're going to be like, hey, I have an idea.
Or hey, I'm building a company.
You want to come hang, you know, and talk about it with me.
Or, you know, hey, I have this idea or, or you'll have an idea and then you'll know who to call.
So I feel like that's like how I did it.
Like I just kind of started wide and like really brought it down.
And then I figured out what I wanted to do when I was like 18, 19, when I really figured it out with my first company.
You know, that's really smart because just to add a little like practical advice to the young men watching this, you know, I grew up in poverty.
I'm not going to go, it's my podcast.
Everyone knows my stories, but I didn't know how to do what you said.
Like, well, how do I then meet the people I want to be like?
Because I, you know, I didn't grow up with, grew up in poverty.
I didn't grow up with wealthy parents.
I didn't grow up with any good examples in my life.
There was no one around my immediate area.
And I see it on TV or like read on the internet and I didn't know how to get there.
So what I did is I went and worked.
I went, how do I get around these people?
So I went and got a job at a photo booth company in a high-end area that was serving high-end events.
So I could get to country clubs and bar mitzvahs and weddings and get in the door, even for work, to be around rich people and would try to talk to as many of these wealthy people and connect people as possible.
Sometimes it's as simple as like just finding a job, you know, maybe in events at a country club or something like that.
And you know what I'm saying?
Like, you can't make excuses.
It's like, well, I'm just live here and I don't meet anyone.
It's like for you and I to meet successful people, it's like every day, every person we meet is pretty much a millionaire at least or a billionaire.
I've been around two billionaires in the last in the last two weeks.
You've probably been around more, but it's like, you know, what I mean is everybody is.
So it's easy for us to sit here and just be like, yeah, well, go meet some people and explore.
It's like, yeah, but how do you break in?
It doesn't mean you have to do events, but you've got to be ingenious like that, where you might have to start like a photo.
Then I started my own photo booth company, which then allowed me to then be the owner.
And then I would go with the employees and kind of walk around and talk and meet and look for ideas and stuff.
And that's kind of what I want to tell people.
It's like, there's no straight path to success.
And everyone, I'm sure yourself, you probably don't even feel successful.
I would, you know, download my apps in the app store, NGL, if you want to send anonymous messages to your friends and bags, if you want to buy and sell crypto with meme coins or buy and sell crypto with Apple Pay.
And then you can follow me on X and on Instagram, HunterJ Isaacson.
And I'm private on Instagram, but I do accept followers.
Plus, I won't say where you live or whatever, but I know that, you know, you come around these parts sometime.
So hopefully we can have you on some of the other shows in the future that we're launching.
And, you know, we have some other hosts that are around sometimes.
It might be nice to talk to them.
We have a young girl named Sarah Stock.
And I'm sure you guys could talk about some really interesting things about biohacking and life and, you know, lifestyle and finding the morality that you have.
And it's very, very interesting stuff.
But if you guys want to support this show, don't forget you can read our articles at rifftv.com, rftv.com.
We have great articles.
All these videos get put in there.
But if you're more a social person and you're like, how do I find you?
Because look, I got millions of followers across like 20 different pages.
Some are small, some are big.
So we've centralized them at elijaschafer.locals.com.
We've been supporting our friends at Rumble.
We've just been creating a database here of all you guys.
It's a great way to make a community.
Plus, once you get into the locals, you can chat with people there, but you can also get access to our Discord.
So that's pretty cool.
And the only way you can get access to the Discord is by signing up for free at locals.
So go to elijaschaf.locals.com.
If you're watching this on Rumble, because the show launches on YouTube to a smaller channel, the first week is trying to grow it.
It's a smarter way we're doing it.
And then a week later, it gets released to a bigger audience on the front page of Rumble.
So remember that.
And also, this is on audio now, too.
So a lot of you guys were asking, this is a couple month old show, but you wanted to listen on audio.
It is audio podcast, Spotify, wherever you can get them.
And we really do appreciate if you're watching till the end.
Please leave a five-star review.
And if you read a five-star review, we'll read it at the end of the next episode.
So if you go on there and you read it and you want to get your name written, honestly, it can actually be anything.
It has to be a real review, though.
Like, please don't be like, shout out to Mima.
I'm not just really review the show.
Write something.
We'll say your name.
And if you want to shout out your Mima or whatever at the end, we will read that as well, which I think is kind of funny.
Or happy anniversary to my wife or whatever.
And we'll have it on the show and you can share it with them.
But anyway, Toddre Isaacson, it's been wonderful having you on, man.
