Stanton Friedman reveals that President Truman established MJ12 in 1947 to cover up recovered alien bodies and technology, arguing the government suppresses this to prevent rivals like China from gaining strategic advantages. He exposes how "noisy negativists" discredit genuine cases like the Betty and Barney Hill abduction and the RB-47 radar sighting while manipulating data to claim only 3% of sightings are unexplained. Friedman asserts that advanced research occurs in private labs rather than universities, urging a shift from nationalistic military spending toward a unified planetary perspective to address global crises like starvation. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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The Real Story of MJ 1200:06:54
Hi, this is Dark Journalist.
Today I have quite a show for you.
Legendary UFO investigator, nuclear physicist, and best selling author Stanton Friedman will join us for a rare, in depth interview on MJ 12, UFO technology, decades of covert manipulation, and official cover ups that are well detailed in his classic work, Top Secret Magic.
Today we'll examine why, decades after the famous MJ 12 documents were leaked by a whistleblower, there are increasing efforts to discredit them by intelligence agencies and Even other UFO researchers.
Now, Stanton has sometimes been referred to as the godfather of ufology, and the title suits him well.
From Roswell to MJ 12, his scientific credentials have given a tremendous lift to the credibility of UFO and alien technology research.
Today, we're going to find out how he feels about covert groups trying to steal back some of that progress.
I'll give you a hint he's not too pleased about it.
Here we go nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman, UFOs, MJ 12, and covert cover ups.
Many of the things that people think they saw correlate perfectly with Air Force research projects.
You're confident that you're not part of any cover up, wittingly or unwittingly?
I'm totally confident, but I think Colonel Weaver, you might have seen him on TV earlier, said it best we can't even keep single secrets.
How could we have a conspiracy or a cover up?
Now you realize the Air Force is lying every minute.
Now, the CIA, I can give you dozens of pages that are blacked out, and I get people telling me the government can't keep secrets.
Okay, tell me what's under the blackout.
The United States recovered a crash flying saucer.
And you got records, you got bodies that proves we were being visited, and case closed.
I mean, that's the end of it.
You know, it's easy to imagine sometimes that our knowledge of the world is always growing.
But what if a covert intel program exists to reverse that process and has been trying to cast doubt on the progress that pioneers in the field of UFO research have been making in the past 50 years?
That's what's happening in the case of the MJ 12 documents.
Through the efforts of disinformation movies like Mirage Men, which purport to show that major UFO cases were simply dreamed up by members of Air Force intelligence, there's a renewed effort to discredit some key discoveries that show not only official secrecy, but official intimidation.
The MJ 12 documents are in the middle of a propaganda battle.
Now we're going to get the real story.
Stan, it's great to have you here.
First off, I wanted to ask you how you're doing.
Now, I know you had a health scare last summer, and everyone wants to know how you're feeling now.
Well, yeah, I had a heart attack on June 27th, and I broke my string for the first time in my life.
I went 79 years and 11 months without being overnight in a hospital.
Wow.
And I had a heart attack, so I spent a week in a hospital and had a couple of stents put in, and I'm doing fine.
And, you know, For an 80 year old, I figured I got 10 more years.
My parents both lived to be 90s.
Well, that's great to hear.
We're all relieved that you're doing better and wish you many more healthy years.
And it's excellent to have you back.
Well, I'm glad to be back.
I've given a number of lectures the past few months and I've got a bunch more scheduled.
Excellent.
Life goes on.
Yes.
You're ready to roll.
Ready to roll.
So let's start off with this Majestic 12 group, better known as MJ 12.
Okay.
Now, these documents, which you helped bring to light, I think represent some of the biggest, most important breakthroughs.
Throughs on understanding the government cover up on the UFO topic.
Just to get us all on the same page, can you describe for us what MJ 12 was and who were some of the participants on it and why are these documents so important?
Well, okay.
If you go back to 1947, Roswell happened in July, early July.
First newspaper articles, July 8th.
Okay.
It turns out.
If we accept the reality of Majestic 12, Magic 12, MJ 12, whatever you want to call it, which I do, having spent an enormous amount of time trying to prove that it's a fraud, and I have been unable to do that.
Right.
In September, President Truman established a group called Operation Majestic 12.
Uh huh.
He gave instructions to Secretary of Defense James Forrestal.
Let's go ahead with Majestic 12, is basically what he said.
And we got, you know, fast forward, nobody knew anything about that on the outside.
It was totally accountable only to the president, that enabling letter to Forrestal said.
And that's the highest level.
You know, that's it.
And we didn't find out.
In 1984, at the end of 84, we got a roll of film, Jamie Chandray got in California.
I was working with Jamie and with Bill Moore.
Bill and I had done a lot of work on Roswell.
I'm the original civilian investigator.
Bill and I worked, we found 62 people in a year and a half once we got rolling on that.
And the first book came out in 1980.
Wow.
By 1986, we had found up to 92 people.
Yeah.
Hard work before the internet.
Big phone bills.
Oh, yeah.
Lots of big phone bills.
Now, Stan, you broke the Roswell story, and most of the facts and witnesses around this, I Iconic UFO case actually come from your early research on the topic.
Isn't that true?
Yeah, I broke the Roswell story, and I was the first to find Walter Hout and General Dubose and Bill Brazil, the son of the rancher, and so forth.
And, you know, I've been at almost all, not quite all.
I missed last year's Roswell Festival because of the heart attack.
Yeah.
And so we get this.
An associate, Jamie Shander, he got a roll of film in the mail on which was the Eisenhower briefing document dated November 24th, 1952.
So he was the president elect when this thing came out.
He's in that in between period there.
Yeah.
And if anything had happened to the country, all the decisions would have been made by Truman, not by Ike.
President Ike doesn't carry any weight.
Right.
And of course, Ike had been in Europe for most of the previous two years with an impossible job, which he managed to get done.
Many people don't appreciate.
His job is to unite the forces of good against the forces of evil, the Soviet Union.
Yeah.
That means working France, England, the United States with Germany, which we'd fought two wars with.
Right.
And where there was, you know, a lot of people got killed in that war and got bombed.
We bombed the heck out of Europe.
Oh, yeah.
And Ike's job was to lend the Allied forces with Germany.
And he did it.
And not many other people could have, I'm absolutely certain.
General Montgomery of England couldn't have done it, and France was in trouble shape anyway, and so forth.
Anyway, we got this roll of film in the mail to a colleague, and Bill developed the roll of film, 35 millimeter film.
It was postmarked.
Albuquerque, which is not surprising.
Albuquerque is the big city in that area.
That's where Los Alamos is close to.
But Kirtland Air Force Base, Sandia, which is one of the nuclear weapons labs.
So Albuquerque was the center of activities.
And people forget the first atomic bomb was tested in New Mexico.
Yeah.
And the bomb was supplied by the Roswell base.
They dropped the first two atomic bombs.
Uh-huh.
The 509.
And I came back to be based at Roswell.
So this wasn't a bunch of dinks with nothing else to do.
Yeah.
Now I'm curious how you actually discovered who was in this MJ-12 group.
This briefing for Ike included a list of the nine, the 12 members of MJ-12.
Uh-huh.
And it was an outstanding group.
There was one surprise on it, but basically it included the first three directors of Central Intelligence, a bunch of.
Generals, General Vandenberg, for example, General Twining, an outstanding group with some Navy people and five scientists, and one, the Secretary of Defense, James Forrestal.
I see, yeah.
Okay.
So it was an all star cast.
But there was one surprise.
Listed on the group was Dr. Donald Menzel.
He was a Harvard University professor of astronomy.
Okay.
So, he was an outstanding scientist, well known.
The only trouble is he'd written three anti UFO books.
And so you say, how could he be on such a list?
Right.
And that was a real shocker because everybody else we knew had a high level security clearance.
And if you're going to be on something on a top secret document that's accountable only to the president, you've got to have a high level security clearance.
Yes.
And you don't need a high level security clearance to teach astronomy at Harvard.
And so there was the real puzzle.
Was how is this?
We didn't want to go public with this.
Somebody'd say, Gotcha.
Right.
What are you kidding?
Menzel?
Yeah.
And three anti UFO books he'd written.
He was the noisiest negativist in the 50s and 60s.
No question about it.
Stan, I like the name you use for these debunker guys, noisy negativists.
That's pretty good.
That's my pleasant name for them.
So, Donald Menzel was one of the names that stood out for you because his presence in a group like this was intriguing, given his background as a Harvard astronomer and as a UFO skeptic.
Yeah.
Which seemed totally incredulous to all of us.
Only a few of us knew about this at the time.
But so the others were not surprises.
We had been digging around because of Roswell to see who, you know, were the big shots at that time.
Right.
And one of the other people on the list was Vannevar Bush.
He was basically President Roosevelt's science advisor.
That wasn't the title.
Okay.
But he coordinated about 80 different high tech research and development programs.
That included the atomic bomb project, wow, the proximity fuse, stuff like that.
And so, uh, he was an obvious choice.
And there were outstanding scientists, but I was looking at I spend a lot of time at archives, uh huh.
I believe you got to get first hand information and to get a handle on what's going on.
I've been to 20 archives, some of them for a week, the Eisenhower Library, for example.
Oh, nice.
And, you know, if somebody would pay me, I'd spend full time doing that.
Right.
But you don't get access to highly classified material.
But when you get out a list of file folders, you tell them which boxes you want.
And then when you're going through those, you'll find withdrawal sheets.
It says, two page memo, Jones to Smith, this date, top secret.
So you can file a request for that.
That's all you see.
You don't know what's on it.
Interesting.
And so, and it can take you two years to six years to get that's a long time, or not.
So, you're looking, and I had found at the Library of Congress manuscript division in Van Bush's papers something under the title Menzel.
And I looked at that, and lo and behold, there was a strange letter from a big shot legal firm in Boston to Van Bush.
Saying thanks for all your help.
And as I promised, I'm informing you that Donald was cleared of all charges against him.
They had wanted to take away his Air Force security clearance.
So that question was what clearance?
Why did Menzel need a clearance with the Air Force?
Yeah, right.
Security clearance.
I know he'd been in the Navy during the war, but the war was over.
He was a commander in the Navy.
That's not the Air Force, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah.
And so I called the legal firm.
All these guys were dead, you see, so there was no way to get first hand input from any of them.
Yeah, well, we're talking about 30 years later, right?
Well, yeah, I'm looking at this in 1984, 85.
Okay.
The document supposedly was written in the briefing document in 52.
All right, so about 32 years after.
Different cast of characters.
Yeah.
And it turns out that we got strange directions, but in Van Bush's file is his lawyer letter.
I called the legal firm and they said, Oh, yeah, there's a thousand pages of information over at the Harvard Archives.
It took permission from three different people for me to gain access to those.
Written permission.
They don't play around there.
Right, sure.
I got a research grant from the Fund for UFO Research.
Thank you, guys, from Washington, which one guy named Milton William Cooper said, Oh, that was all CIA money, and Friedman works with the CIA, which was one of those, where's my check?
Well, this is the kind of knee jerk reaction that we see over and over again, where when you're working on these really deep secrets and you come across something that's truly groundbreaking.
There's always a chorus of critics who line up and say, Well, he's probably an Intel agent spreading disinformation, right?
So you can't win.
Yeah, stuff like that.
And I know the history of my grant because the fund had put out a mailing to the people that it was connected to which of these research topics would you like researched?
And MJ12 was tops on the list.
And so they came to me and said, Stan, can you do any research on this?
Yeah, I got all kinds of things I can do.
We'll prepare a proposal, which I did.
And they gave me a grant, and that enabled me to go down to Harvard, spend three nights there, and then go down to the Forest Hall's papers in Princeton and to go to Washington.
It takes money to do these.
Sure.
You know, I'm not rich.
Certainly don't get rich being a ufologist, be that.
And so I went to Harvard, and I'd had, I better tell you, I'd had one run in with Menzel.
Okay.
I was speaking at.
To an engineering alumni group at Harvard back in the late 60s.
And I was there and I called him early in the day because I had no idea whether they were promoting the program outside of their membership.
So I called out of courtesy.
I called Dr. Menzel.
This is Don Menzel.
I said, Hi, this is Stanton Friedman.
Oh, I know all about you.
I said, Oh, you saw my congressional paper next to yours?
No, I've seen letters and memos.
That's interesting.
I didn't know what that meant at that time at all.
I just found out two months ago what that meant.
It turns out that I'd had some correspondence with Edward U. Condon, the Condon Report.
Sure, the Condon Committee.
Yeah.
And it turned out that Kathleen Marden was doing research.
I was supposed to be with her, but I was in the hospital at the American Philosophical Society Library, which is where Condon's papers were.
Okay.
And Menzel has papers there too, his UFO course.
Right, yeah.
And Phil Class has papers there too, which interestingly don't have a Friedman file, even though we corresponded for more than 20 years.
Now, Philip Class was a major UFO debunker.
A big debunker.
Nasty, noisy, negativist indeed.
Yeah, he sort of set the trend.
Well, Menzel before him.
Right, exactly.
Menzel earlier.
Menzel was older.
And I found out that Condon had sent copies of my rather strong letters to him to Menzel.
Oh, okay.
And you've only just recently discovered this, right?
A few weeks ago.
Wow, that's unreal.
Happy discovered in July.
Well, that shows that they're really keeping tabs on you.
Yeah, letters and memos.
But the rest of the conversation was interesting.
And I didn't know what that means.
And he said, You can't be a scientist and believe in UFOs, said Menzel.
At which stupid comment, I laughed.
And he got angry.
He started ranting.
I said, Dr. Menzel, I only called out of courtesy.
To invite you to attend my lecture tonight at such and such a time in such and such a building, because I had no idea whether you were aware of it or not.
And I didn't say it, but what I was thinking was I don't want anybody to think I was afraid to tangle with you.
Right, right.
So that was our conversation.
So I was not a fan of Donald Menzel.
Okay.
So here I am at Harvard, and I'm looking around what am I going to look for?
And I see a file.
I knew that his correspondence was at the American Philosophical Society Library, Menzel's UFO correspondence.
And there's a file that says JFK.
Uh huh.
Let's check that.
Really?
Yeah.
I was shocked because in there, it turns out Kennedy was on the board of overseers at Harvard.
Okay.
And his area of interest was the astronomy field.
And his contact was Don Menzel.
They got to know each other.
I mean, Kennedy's from the Boston area, you know.
Yeah.
Not too surprising.
And in these letters, I found.
Menzel's saying to Kennedy, and they're on a first name basis, Dear Jack, that kind of thing.
There's one area where I might be able to be of some assistance to you the National Security Agency.
I have a longer continuous association with them and their Navy predecessor of anybody in the country.
When we are properly cleared to each other, I can tell you more.
Wow.
Yeah.
Shock.
Right.
And then it turned out, I also looked at his then unpublished autobiography.
Turns out he'd done classified work for 30 different companies.
He was a world class cryptographer.
Huh.
Nobody knew any of this stuff.
Yeah.
He'd done work for the FBI and the CIA.
And the charges were part of the McCarthy era.
Right.
Yeah.
The hearing was 1950.
And one of the things he was guilty of, he led an eclipse expedition in Siberia.
Well, that makes him a communist sympathizer.
Oh, no.
Just because he was over there.
They arranged for the eclipse to be there, you know, visible there.
But it sounds like he was leading a double life.
He was leading a double life.
And Van Bush testified strongly in his favor.
It turns out they'd gone back as they knew each other since 1934.
Close.
Well, Bush was at MIT, he was at Harvard.
Long term relationship.
Yeah, long term relationship.
And it was clear from Bush's testimony on his behalf that he knew what Menzel had been doing.
This is an unclassified presentation, but it was clear he was familiar with his work and so forth.
So this opened up a whole new ballgame.
And as a matter of fact, within the last couple of years, there's been a big, long paper published about his contributions to cryptology.
Would you believe?
Well, isn't that interesting?
Because they're starting to understand now and get on board with some of the research.
That you found out about a long time ago.
Yeah, it was a real shocker.
And I still get people saying he couldn't have led a double life.
And I always say Burgess, Philby, and McLean.
These are three English intelligence agency guys who were Russian spies.
That's a pretty neat trick.
Yeah.
But Menzel made major, he set up the teaching program at Radcliffe, the women's part of Harvard.
Yeah.
They wanted to use women because the men would be at war.
This is during the war.
They needed more people to work on cryptography because, after all, we've broken the German codes and Japanese codes.
Right.
Discrediting UFO Cover Ups00:14:29
So you need people to.
And one of the things that Menzel had going for him is he learned Japanese.
He made trips in New Mexico, he would have been the ideal guy to look at the symbols on the wreckage from Roswell.
Oh, yeah.
Strange symbols.
What do they mean?
Well, you go to a cryptographer, you know.
Right, exactly.
So it opened up a whole new ballgame.
And a good example of what people didn't know.
Sky and Telescope, which is published in the Boston area, devoted two issues to Don Menzel in his honor.
The first one at the time of Menzel's death.
Okay.
And the second one at the 100th anniversary of his birth.
In neither of these did they say anything at all about his post World War II highly classified activities.
That's so odd.
Nobody knew about them.
I talked to people at Harvard.
Most of them didn't even know about the loyalty hearings, which Menzel described as the worst experience of his life.
He had a Navy top secret umbra and he couldn't say anything about it.
And here the Air Force wants to take away his secret clearance.
Yeah.
For no good reason at all.
Yeah.
So I suddenly became a fan of Don Menzel.
And I just reread his congressional testimony in 1968.
We both provided only written testimony, there were six guys who gave oral testimony.
And there's an interesting contrast.
Menzel tries to explain away all sightings with broad generalizations.
Not one reference in his paper.
I've got more than 40 references in my paper.
Oh, that's great.
And right next to him, I'm saying the evidence is overwhelming some UFOs or alien spacecraft.
We're dealing with a cosmic water gate, and there's no problem with interstellar flight if you want to spend the money.
And Menzel says, oh, with the nearest civilization being hundreds of light years away, which is a crock of baloney.
This is before Kepler, of course, saying there's planets all over the place, but there are 2,000 stars within 54 light years of here.
Why would you have to worry about going hundreds of light years?
You know, it makes no sense, but it sounds good.
You can't get here from there, and there aren't any good cases, and people are lousy observers.
That was his notion.
Yeah, and because he was an expert, everyone was just supposed to forget about it.
Well, yeah, Dr. J. Allen Hynek actually favorably reviewed one of Menzel's three UFO books.
Yeah, but Heineck turned at a certain point.
He just couldn't take the lies anymore.
He turned.
Yeah.
Well, you know, Alan was a good guy.
Menzel was aggressive.
Alan was not.
And there are still, today as we speak, people who are afraid to get involved in investigating UFOs.
Sure.
Because of fear of ridicule.
Witnesses are afraid to report them because of fear of ridicule.
Yeah, so the psychological resistance to this is strong because they place this barrier out there.
For serious academic people not to go near this area.
It's kind of like the third rail.
But in terms of MJ 12, I guess my question is where are they now?
And do you think that this special group is still operating in the government today?
Well, I'm sure it's still around.
I'm sure the title got changed when the documents got leaked.
Yes.
Because that's standard practice.
And I think that there are some opponents of the notion of MJ 12.
There's about 100 phony documents out there.
I say there are three genuine ones.
That's all I care about.
Don't you expect the government to flood the market with garbage?
What stuff gets out?
Well, this is garbage and that's garbage, so it must all be garbage.
Right.
And that's the attitude I'm running into.
And there is an old ploy absence of evidence is evidence for absence, isn't it?
Yeah.
Well, it isn't.
Very often it is not.
And so I've gone systematically through all the objections to the three MJ12 documents, and I haven't found one that stands up.
Some of them are silly.
Philip Klass, who was a nasty, noisy negativist to the nth degree.
Right, yeah.
He.
Challenge me that perhaps you didn't realize that one of those documents was done in large pica type, but the National Security Council uses only small elite type.
And I will give you $100 each for every genuine document done in the same size and style pica type, up to a maximum of 10, unfortunately.
Now, he had never been to the Eisenhower Library before or after.
They have 250,000 pages of National Security Council materials.
How can anybody assume you can go from He had nine.
They should go from nine to 250,000.
That's pretty absurd.
Oh, yeah.
When I went, I sent him 14 and an invoice for $1,000, and he paid me.
He didn't tell anybody about paying me.
That's great.
Now, Stan, I have a vintage clip here of you tangling with Philip Class.
And this is from ABC's Nightline program.
Looks like an early attempt at discrediting these MJ12 documents.
And it's always interesting to see and go back and compare.
How debunking was used then versus some of the disinformation attempts that are going on now.
So here we go.
And an enormous amount of data in the form of documents, some of them obtained from the government directly, some not so directly, clearly indicating that our planet is being visited, that some UFOs are alien spacecraft, and that we are indeed dealing with a cosmic Watergate.
Let me respond, if I may, to an issue that's come up here that I think is a very important one.
These alleged top secret eyes only documents.
Provide ABC, provide the nation an opportunity to find out for themselves firsthand what sort of nonsense the UFO proponents are spouting.
Let me comment about that.
One thing I am familiar with is I worked on classified programs for 15 years.
I had a high level security clearance.
And essentially, everybody I've talked to who also has had high level security clearances agrees fully with the notion that secrets are being kept, that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of so called black.
Program.
Either these documents are authentic, we have captured a flying saucer, the government has maintained a cover up for 40 years, or come back and report it's nonsense and there has never been so great a con job done against the news media and the public as has been perpetrated with the release of these phony documents.
Stan, it looks like they were after you even then.
That's right.
So, why do you think there's this big push on now to try and discredit the MJ 12 documents?
You know, the heat is on and the pressure is rising.
But where is it coming from?
You know, we see efforts like this movie Mirage Men, which tries to cast major UFO cases in a negative light and just say, oh, that's the Air Force, you know, covering for their experimental craft, and even enlisting guys like Kevin Randall, for example, who's in the military, to say, oh, yeah, MJ 12 is just a hoax.
I don't know.
I think it may be a strong not invented here attitude.
You know, if that were real, I would have known about it.
And I've sucked my neck out, so I might as well get it out a little farther.
Yeah, I read the Mirage book and saw the movie.
Okay.
And it was full of baloney.
Right, exactly.
It was written by an Englishman.
I've got nothing against Englishmen, but he spent a lot of time in New Mexico, but he didn't really understand how security works.
Yes.
And a lot of people don't.
It's funny how people are ready to, you know, everything is automatically declassified after 20 years, some people.
That's not true.
I know it's not true because I've been to places where there's old stuff that they won't declassify.
And of course, you search for and get these rare documents, and when you get them, they're all blacked out and redacted.
Well, the NSA.
Never says anything, you know, no such agency.
Those guys, Mr. Snowden's company, if you will.
Oh, yeah.
They released many years ago 156 top secret Umbra UFO documents.
The only trouble is you can only read one sentence per page.
Everything else is whited out.
Whoa.
Whited out.
Oh, whited out.
Not blacked out.
Now, the CIA, I can give you dozens of pages that are blacked out except for, you know, a few words per page.
And I got people telling me the government can't keep secrets.
Okay, tell me what's under the whiteout.
Very straightforward.
And that goes back.
These date from like 1980.
So, what are all the documents that they've accumulated since that time?
So, I think there's a territoriality thing.
Nobody likes to admit they're wrong.
I don't know what it is.
Yeah.
I'll be doing more writing about MJ 12 and Operation Majestic 12.
Some of the arguments are pretty silly.
One of Kevin's early arguments was that the briefing officer is described as Admiral Roscoe Helen Coter.
He had been head of the CIA.
But he wasn't an admiral, he was only a rear admiral.
Obviously, the document's fraudulent.
What he didn't point out, as he should have, the other five military people all used, were named by generic ranks general and admiral, not lieutenant general, not major general, including.
Ike's staff secretary, he used to list who was attending meetings at the White House.
Okay.
And he would list them all by generic rank, including himself, general.
He signed it, Brigadier General.
Right.
I checked with two archivists.
Does that bother you, this use of generic?
Standard practice.
And they tell me Ike used it in his books.
And I went and looked, and sure enough, he did.
So Kevin made a big deal about this.
Obviously, nonsense.
And what he said was obvious nonsense.
Yeah.
Well, what I find strange is that he's a UFO researcher.
Well, remember, he's written at least 80 books of fiction besides the few books of nonfiction.
Okay.
Well, that's a good point, actually.
He creates scenarios.
Right.
Yeah.
I don't know how to create scenarios.
I got to go by the facts.
I got to have facts in hand before putting mouth in gear.
Yes.
So there's a whole bunch of these.
Things that sound good but turn out to be false objected to the MJ 12 stuff.
Okay, so let's go one level deeper with this.
What is it that's revealed in the MJ 12 documents, if you were to summarize it, that scares the establishment and elements of the research community so much?
You know, what is it that critics object to exactly?
I don't know why people object because they didn't get there first.
I don't know what it is.
But the fundamental thing that's revealed.
Is that the United States recovered a crash flying saucer and enemy bodies in 1947?
Alien bodies.
Alien bodies.
Yes.
And you got wreckage, you got bodies that proves we're being visited and case closed.
I mean, that's the end of it.
And we're not telling the Russians, we're not telling the Chinese, we're not telling the American people because you can't tell the Americans without telling the Chinese and the Russians.
Right, right.
But I mean, it establishes the baseline in 1947.
This is a briefing for Ike, and I'm sure he knew about it in 1947 because he was Army Chief of Staff for a while.
Then he became President of Columbia University and.
Then he went over to Europe.
So I'm not saying he didn't know about it.
But by 1952, he certainly needed a briefing between 47 and 52.
A lot could happen in five years, especially when you look at the list of attachments.
It's only really eight pages long, the Eisenhower briefing document.
It says preliminary on it.
Another objection.
Oh, you think there was a crash in Aztec, New Mexico, which I do, because I've looked at Scott Ramsey's and his wife Suzanne's excellent work on it.
Oh, yeah.
But it isn't mentioned in the briefing, so you can't have it both ways.
It says it's a preliminary briefing.
It doesn't say this is the whole story.
Ike was briefed at the Pentagon for 48 minutes to cover all the subjects he was being briefed on.
You're not going to give a life history of all these things.
You give him one document, and then he appoints somebody to dig into this.
That's the way these things go.
This was November, he didn't become president for two months.
December, January, he became Christmas.
Right.
That's in time to get things rolling.
I should put out a whole book.
There's a chapter in my book, Flying Saucers and Science, Update on Majestic 12, which I bring into a lot of this stuff, the findings.
I just wish, you know, it's like the mental stuff.
I've had people say he couldn't have led a double life, but none of those people have gone to the Harvard Archives to look at his papers.
Yeah.
I mean, Don't tell me that I'm full of baloney when you haven't looked at the evidence.
I don't make it up.
Here it is.
Yeah.
So I don't understand it.
But as I said in our book, Science Was Wrong, there are a lot of examples of smart people taking strong stands about things which they were totally wrong about.
Right.
So really, the Majestic 12 documents are probably the clearest indication that we're being visited by off world civilizations.
Evidence from the Horse's Mouth00:02:56
And they basically show that the government is aware of their presence here.
And has taken steps to create a program around it.
Yes.
Right.
Yeah, I think so.
It's from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
Right.
Right.
A lot of the stuff's coming out of the other end of the horse, I'm afraid.
It touches a nerve for some reason.
Part of it, I suppose, is because once people have taken a stand, they hate to admit they were going down the wrong pike.
Yeah.
Well, do you think there are covert intelligence groups that are trying to, over time, Discredit the MJ 12 documents and reverse the research on this to try and keep the public uninformed about UFOs?
Oh, yeah.
It would be standard operating procedure.
If something gets out that risks releasing classified data, you want to put out disinformation.
The British did it all during the war.
They turned certain German agents.
And how important it is can be illustrated by the fact that we made a major effort to convince Hitler that the invasion of Europe.
Which everybody knew was going to happen sometime.
It was going to take place near Calais, France, rather than Normandy.
Right, yeah.
They even included documents, sort of innocuous, in the pocket of an English officer who had died.
They dumped them off Spain, a man without a face, and knowing that the Spanish would turn it over to Hitler.
All kinds of subtle things were.
That's interesting.
Well, if you want it, being able to deceive your enemy is extremely important.
When you have a limited amount of troops, equipment, capability, and stuff, Hitler's generals told them, bring in the reserves.
Come on, they're attacking over here.
No, no, no, said Hitler.
He knew better.
That's not where they're, this is not the real attack.
That's going to happen over at Cowles.
The time he sent in the troops, it was too late.
Yeah.
So we've learned that this information can be very powerful.
Absolutely.
And, you know, that's the way things are.
I mean, people say, oh, it's terrible.
Government's lying.
Well, I hate to say it.
Yeah, governments do lie.
Yeah.
This isn't the first time.
Right.
Well, what world have they been living in?
Yeah.
Well, when you look at the secretive system that's been set up around this kind of information, what is their chief reason for these attempts at discrediting the whole notion of MJ 12?
You know, would it be to lower the public's knowledge about UFO phenomena because they want to reserve that information and all that it implies and keep it for themselves, basically?
Well, I think they want it to themselves and they're concerned about our enemies overseas too.
Okay.
And people say, well, don't you think we're entitled to know everything?
Black Budgets and National Security00:08:00
No, I don't.
I respect security.
Uh huh.
And if we put our stuff out on the table and the Russians and Chinese don't put their stuff, maybe what they know with what we know would give them a leg up on us.
Interesting.
You can't do that.
And these other countries, like Russia and China, for example, have their own UFO files and secret research programs around it as well, right?
Oh, a great deal.
Big countries.
And loads of sightings over there in both China and Russia.
And, you know, India as well.
The problem is what happens to the world if countries lose their special status?
Yeah.
If there's a push for, why don't we be friends with each other, folks?
We got a lot of starving kids to feed.
To me, that's a symbol of what's wrong with the planet.
Yes.
And I can't imagine aliens thinking that, oh, those earthlings are really nice guys.
We're not.
Oh, there's no question.
And it's funny, you know, you do hear this a lot that if the aliens were visiting, well, why wouldn't they speak to us officially?
And I recall someone asked you that on one of these CNN debates, and you had a classic response.
You said, well, I don't talk to the squirrels in my backyard, you know, which I did.
That's right.
It's right.
And, you know, I mean, it sounds simplistic, but it's true.
When you look at the huge investment, as I mentioned, the total black budget for military intelligence for the United States, according to the Washington Post, is $52.6 billion.
Wow, and that's just what we know about, right?
Yeah, that's the black budget according to them, and I think there was a leak from Snowden about budgeting something like that.
But back 25 years ago, it was almost $40 billion.
Guy got a Pulitzer Prize for coming up with that number about the black budget.
So this is taken very seriously.
Yeah.
Classified intelligence.
It doesn't mean everybody gets to look at it, but nobody gets to take it home.
It means you don't get to look at it.
You don't have access.
And that includes, well, you know, the cosmic Watergate is why I call it that, because that wasn't even military secrets.
True.
But the Washington Post spent a lot of money to dig into that.
And we need somebody to take Woodward Bernstein's place.
To blow the lid off the cosmic water, as far as I'm concerned.
I'd help.
Yeah, right.
Well, you've been the best help so far.
Stan, when you look at things like WikiLeaks and stuff, do you look at it hopefully and say maybe somewhere in that whole sort of milieu of stuff, we're going to see some UFO revelations?
I'm not too optimistic about that.
Compartmentalization is the key to security.
That's why I mentioned Vannevar Bush.
He was known for that.
Just because you work in the same building and have a top secret clearance doesn't mean you have access to what the guy next door is doing.
True.
That means if you've got a spy in your midst, he doesn't have access to everything, you say.
Yes.
Which is very important.
And, you know, I talk about spies and military budgets, but look at the planet we live on.
Where does the money go?
Everybody's got an Air Force, everybody's got an Air Defense Command, everybody's got armies, navies.
Huge amounts of money.
Yeah.
You've got to protect your information.
And so, you know, it's a sad thing to say, but that's where the action is.
And so that could include this sort of press blackout, working through the media to keep it as a kind of third rail.
Yes.
Yeah, as something to report on seriously.
Yes.
I think the government, when I say the government, that makes it sound like it's a monolithic structure and everybody knows what's going on.
That's not how security works.
Okay.
Only a few people know what's going on.
If you take advantage of the egos in Washington, well, if that were happening here, I'm important.
They don't have a need to know, and they do meet the press all the time.
You know, it's part of their daily.
They might be saying some wrong things.
Right.
Presidents come and go.
Intelligence agencies go on forever.
That's an old line out of Washington.
So, you know, like it or not, we don't get to vote on whether we like it or not.
Well, that's definitely true.
Now, do you think that most of this advanced technology research from these crash retrievals has been transferred over to private industry, which has the effect of making it even harder to trace?
Well, look, if it's technology research, who's going to develop it?
Some university?
No, it's going to be private industry.
Like I said, look at Lockheed for still.
Yeah, right.
You know, and the rockets, you might have a NASA hither and yon, but the work gets done in industry.
Who builds the boosters?
It's industry.
Sure.
And so they're an important part of the thing.
You'd never get academics to admit that.
I've seen so much ignorance.
Well, two different people have told me, Stan, if Roswell really happened, they'd have had to pull half the physicists out of the colleges in the country.
To deal with that.
And I laughed and said, What are you talking about?
Are you forgetting about Los Alamos and Sandia and Livermore and Oak Ridge and all these other places?
There are two requirements.
You need competent people who have high level security clearances.
And we have that in industry and the national labs.
That's where the action is, not at universities.
I'm not saying universities, MIT is still doing some classified work, a small amount by comparison.
But most of them would be out of the loop on this for sure.
Definitely.
It's such a naive point of view that they have.
Well, it would have been published in the physical review I had one guy tell me about Roswell.
I mean, the first nuclear chain reaction of Fermi's outfit at Chicago, 1942, was an earth shaking event.
Yeah.
You know, there was a publication about it.
Well, that reminds me, I seem to recall you were in a radio interview and someone called in and said, you know, I was in the military and I never heard about a crashed UFO.
And you said, well, why would they share that with you?
Did you have top secret crash retrieval security clearance?
And that really said a lot, I think.
Security clearance and need to know.
Need to know, exactly.
You need both.
Some people think that everybody who's got a top secret clearance has access to all top secret material.
No way.
Right.
That's not the way it works.
Well, it's very interesting.
Actually, there are a lot of misconceptions about how secrecy is maintained by these organizations.
And it's important to open our eyes and see how things really work.
Now, I want to ask you what, in your opinion, are the three most important UFO cases on the record that prove we're being visited by an extraterrestrial presence?
You know, what are your top three?
And let's say, besides Roswell, Since you've already shown just how important that case is in your best selling books on the subject.
So, what are your top three?
Intriguing Star Maps Revealed00:04:29
Well, I like the Betty and Barney Hill case mainly because Dr. Simon was so skilled.
We hear a lot about PTSD these days.
Sure.
He was a world class expert on that.
He actually ran an army facility with 3,000 beds for veterans who had shell shock, is what they called it then.
Right.
And he developed the techniques for getting them back.
To life, so to speak.
And he said, he didn't know much about flying saucers at all, but he knew a great deal about having people get over traumatic experiences.
And he had to stop one session each for Betty and Barney because he wasn't sure they could handle it.
The terror was so obviously great.
Yeah.
And so, coming from him, that means something.
We're not talking about a parlor hypnotist.
That, along with the fact that Betty and Barney were rather special.
People in my opinion.
I did meet them both.
Oh, that's right.
You did.
Oh, yeah, of course.
And the co author on Captured, Kathleen Martin, is Betty's niece.
Yes, she's a good writer.
So she heard about it the day after it happened because Betty called her sister, Kathy's mother, and told her about seeing a flying saucer.
Now, the abduction part didn't come out for a couple of years.
Yes.
Dr. Simon got involved, but I was the first to publish about the star map work.
Uh huh.
You know, you want a different sense of perspective.
The base stars for the hill aliens, if you will, Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 are reticular.
Right, yeah.
So what?
Well, they're only 39.3 light years away, which is close down the street, so to speak.
But they're only an eighth of a light year apart from each other.
So from a planet around one looking at the other, you can see it all day long.
That's an entirely different situation.
They're 30 times closer than we are, our star is the next star over.
And they're older.
So, it wouldn't be surprising if there were earlier interstellar travel and you had a next door neighbor.
Right, right.
You know, so that's kind of intriguing.
And the upshot of the star map is that Betty Hill recounted it during a hypnotic regression and drew it.
And it actually took another five years for information on that second star to even be published.
Well, Marjorie Fish, a brilliant woman, I was the first to publish about her work, built more than 20 three dimensional models of our local galactic neighborhood.
Amazing.
Using little beads and string to see if she could match the three dimensional, the two dimensional drawing that Betty had made, only if she could remember it accurately.
That was a kicker from Dr. Simon.
Yeah.
And so she finally took eliminating stars and finally found one pattern that matched angle for angle, line length for line length.
It was a great day.
And that's when we found out it was Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 reticuli.
Yeah.
Let's go to this clip from your original classic UFOs Are Real documentary.
Now, this is Betty Hill describing how she was shown the star map during her original UFO encounter.
When I asked Alita where he was from, I said, I know you're not from this planet.
And this is when I saw the star map.
It looked almost like I was looking out a window.
It had dimension to it.
It was about three or four feet long and about two feet high.
There were all these balls of light in it.
And Alita explained to me that the heavy lines, the places they go all the time or frequently, The broken lines were expeditions.
He asked me if I knew where I was on the map.
And I told him no, that I knew nothing about astronomy.
And so he said, if I did not know where I was on the map, then there was no point of trying to explain it to me.
I just didn't have the necessary knowledge.
That's so interesting.
And here's Betty Hill, right?
This no nonsense social worker and her husband Barney, who's a postal worker.
And they have this incredible encounter together.
And can back each other's story up.
And then the info about the star map given under hypnosis that's later proven correct.
I mean, you almost have to feel bad for the skeptics on this.
Yeah.
So I definitely agree.
Betty Hill's Hypnotic Encounter00:03:13
That's one of the all time best cases.
What other cases are your top favorites?
Let's see.
So the Hill case, Roswell, I like Jim McDonald's testimony before Congress.
He's got 40 some cases.
But one I like, the RB 47 case, for example.
Okay.
Where a reconnaissance bomber, RB, highly trained people with fancy equipment over the Gulf of Mexico, UFO approached, flew around them a couple times, they radioed the ground, they saw it on their radar, the ground people saw it on their radar, and this went on for almost an hour.
And Jim McDonald found the sighting in the Air Force files, pretty much neglected, and managed to talk to all the Crew members on board the plane.
I think it was six.
And outstanding case.
And I talked to Carl Sagan about it.
Oh, well, that was, I know what that was, Dan.
We were classmates in Chicago.
Oh, really?
That's interesting.
Yeah, three years in the same classes.
That was spoofing.
That is where you create a target on a radar screen without there being anything there.
You do it electronically.
I said, Carl, there were visual observations.
Oh.
Oh, well, I better think about that again.
I never heard any more about it.
No follow up.
That was a good case.
Well, I always had the impression that Sagan knew a lot more than he talked about, but he just didn't have the guts to go there.
If he did know, it was because of security restrictions.
I saw him a year before he died at his home.
And we talked about clearances, and he had had a clearance for the O'Brien panel.
And I had the feeling that Carl knew something, but not a lot, because he had been arrested, as a matter of fact, for protesting at.
The bomb testing and stuff like that.
Oh, that's intriguing.
A better bet from my view, this will surprise you, Frank Drake, the SETI man.
Why do I say that?
Because he got his undergraduate degree, went into the Navy, and worked on anti missile kind of stuff, efforts to break through the other guys' codes and stuff like that.
Had to have a high level of clearance for that.
And He stayed in the reserve for at least 10 years, and he served the commander of the Navy Reserve Unit in Cambridge, Donald Menzel.
Wow.
Well, there's your tie in right there.
Yeah.
And so I like Frank as a better bet for that.
In other words, I think the way you do this is you program people to confuse, to misrepresent, to misdirect.
And I think SETI has done a great job of that.
In other words, maybe they should learn sign language instead of waiting for signals from outer space.
Right, yeah.
Maybe the aliens will send it on a cassette.
Reliable Early Conversations00:08:59
Yes.
So that's just off the top.
I've never talked to Frank, I've talked to Carl, but it would be interesting to find out more.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
And someone like Sagan, whose work was so fascinating, you just know that there were certain secrets about all this that he would be expected to keep.
I guess the point is just that you'd wish that some of these really big names would have gone that extra mile and informed the public on this, you know?
Well, look, he said something twice.
There are interesting sightings that aren't reliable.
There are reliable sightings that aren't interesting, but there are no interesting and reliable sightings.
That's totally false.
The biggest study ever done for the Air Force found the greater the reliability of the sighting, the more likely to be unexplainable.
Yeah.
And as an example of government attitude, Statement was made by the Secretary of the Air Force about that report, Blue Book Special Report No. 14, that on the basis of this study, we believe no objects such as those properly described as flying saucers have overflown the United States.
Even the unknown 3% could have been identified as conventional phenomena or illusions if more complete observational data had been available.
Well, the report was 21.5% completely separate from the 9.3% that were listed as.
Insufficient information.
So that's 30% or more.
Well, yeah, give me 20.
I'll take the coffee.
Well, we'll do 25% and split the difference.
But they're always doing this in these types of studies, right?
Cooking the figures.
It was a lie.
And as a matter of fact, the press release, this is 1955, and I talk about it in Flying Saucers and Science.
The press release was strange.
It didn't give the title of the report.
Surely some newsman would have said, What do you mean, report 14?
What happened to 1 through 13?
Oh, they were all classified.
It couldn't do that.
It didn't say who did the work.
The Tell Memorial Institute in Columbus, Ohio, a major research and development firm.
They didn't say that.
So nobody could go there and say, hey, what'd you guys do here?
That kind of thing.
Right.
There was a cross comparison between the unknowns, the only ones we're interested in, and the knowns.
They said six different characteristics.
They found the probability that the unknowns were just missed knowns was less than 1%.
Wow.
None of that showed up in any of the questions.
So there was a flat out lie.
The 3% figure was a flat out lie.
And to say that it was just because there wasn't enough data was a flat out model, a separate category for them.
So that's why I say it's a cosmic watergate.
If we've got anybody who's going to take the trouble, it's easy to prove that.
Yeah.
Well, obviously, this is what their modus operandi is around this topic.
Yes.
Even now, some 50, 60, 70 years later.
Unfortunately, yes.
And, you know, it bothers me as a scientist and as somebody who.
Who gets strange questions from people that indicate they clearly have no idea what's going on?
Yeah.
And it's time to get educated, folks.
Definitely true.
Now, as far as important modern UFO cases go, the Phoenix Lights incident, where in 1997 multiple witnesses saw these unexplained lights and crafts just sort of hovering over the city.
Where do you rank the Phoenix Lights case in your list of UFO sightings?
Well, it was a very good report because there were so many witnesses.
Yeah.
And because.
The conditions were good.
It was a clear sky.
They were watching a comet that night.
That's why so many people were out.
And the Air Force explanation was ridiculous.
And I was glad to see Governor Stevens, Symington.
Symington, 5 Symington.
Yeah, I was on Larry King with him when he went public, saying he saw them.
He was a pilot in the Air Force.
That sure as heck wasn't in the airplane.
Right, yeah.
Finally, I got enough to come out.
So it was a good case.
But remember, no bodies.
Right.
No good pictures that we know about.
Yeah.
So, as sightings go, it was great.
And, you know, the explanation that it was the people running maneuvers, testing flares and stuff, that happened an hour later and 30 miles away.
You know, but they got away with it.
Yeah.
The rest didn't do their job.
Yeah.
But I give Symington credit for speaking.
Yeah.
Yes.
And again, it makes a difference when someone like that will come forward.
Which brings me to Major Jesse Marcel, who was the retired military intelligence officer that gave you the Roswell story in the first place.
Now, I have a couple of clips of Major Marcel discussing the Roswell incident, and then let's come back and talk about your experiences with him.
So, here we go.
One thing I was certain of, being familiar with all our activities, is that it was not a weather balloon, nor an aircraft, nor a missile.
It was something else of which we didn't know what it was.
There were just fragments strewn all over the An area about three quarters of a mile long and several hundred feet wide.
So we proceeded to pick up the parts.
A lot of it had a lot of little members with symbols that to me I call them hieroglyphics because I could not interpret them, could not be read.
They were just like symbols of something that meant something.
These little members could not be broken, could not be burned.
I even tried to burn that, it would not burn.
It was not anything from this earth that I'm quite sure of.
Because I was being an intelligence officer, I was familiar with just about all materials used in aircraft and our air travel.
This is nothing like that.
It could not have been.
There he is, the late Jesse Marcel, telling us about observing the debris from a crashed UFO on a ranch outside Roswell, New Mexico.
Now, Stan, what was it like when you met him?
Can you tell us about some of those early conversations and some of your first impressions of this courageous guy who came forward with an amazing story?
He was, well, I met him, first I talked to him on the phone, and then I met him in person for my movie UFOs Are Real.
And he was a really neat guy, the kind of guy you sort of inherently trust.
Yeah.
Remember who he was?
He was the intelligence officer for the only atomic bombing group in the world, the 509th, at Roswell.
And he was not a West Pointer.
Huh.
Which means that he was extremely well thought of by the powers that be.
You don't get to that position, in other words, just by being someplace for a long time or anything like that.
Yeah.
You've got to have talent.
There are nuclear weapons involved.
And so he was a very nice man, and his son was great too.
His son went on to be a doctor, a medical doctor, died last year, unfortunately.
Just an incredible guy, yeah.
Yeah, they were both great guys.
Yeah.
Jesse Sr., did he actually describe the I-beams to you with the kind of hieroglyphs and the purple tint?
I got more of that from Junior than Sr.
Okay.
Yeah.
Matter of fact, there was a mock.
I've been made up based on Jesse Jr.
That's right.
I've seen that.
Very interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What was the most important thing that Senior told you?
What really stuck in your mind?
I mean, I know the whole story is incredible, but was there one thing that just grabbed you?
Well, it was interesting that he was told to shut up by General Ramey when he was there, but you don't say anything.
I'll take care of it.
Yeah.
That's a rather, you follow orders.
I mean, you know, why didn't he speak up?
What are you, crazy?
This is the military, a chain of command, especially for an outfit like the 509.
So that was one thing.
And then the fact that in our first conversation, he told me that what was amazing was that this stuff, there wasn't anything conventional out there when they got out there in this field in the middle of nowhere.
And that's really nowhere.
I've been out there.
But how much material there was and how big an area it was spread over, like three quarters of a mile this way, a quarter mile that way, and no crater.
He said, I've seen airplane crashes when he was serving in the Pacific.
Alien Pilot and Wingman Scenario00:02:51
Right.
You see vacuum tubes, you see wire, you see all kinds of little tags that say made in Oshkosh.
You know, you see all kinds of things.
Right, yeah.
There was nothing like that.
And there were no craters.
So he felt there had to be a mid air collision.
Yeah.
Now, he didn't know that I'd heard about later about the planes of San Augustine.
Same time.
And I asked an Air Force general retired.
When you have a mid air collision, is the damage usually symmetric?
He said no.
Usually one guy makes it and one guy doesn't.
And so one came down intact and this one blew up.
And how could it happen?
Well, for those who want a possible hypothesis, we know that there was a missile launch scheduled.
And at that time, it was only vacuum tube radar.
So you leave the radar on so it doesn't need to warm up.
It's just sending a beam out.
It's not.
Beam going around and around.
Okay.
And so, how many places on the planet would you have to go through a radar beam?
Practically none at that time.
Yeah, right.
You kill a few birds, no big deal.
So, if they happen to a pilot and a wingman, and more than 40% of the sightings in 47 involve more than one object seen at a time, that's why I say pilot and wingman.
We fly that.
We're talking about alien pilot and alien wingman.
Yeah, right.
And so, you.
If you fly through this unexpected beam and it discombobulates the guidance system, the control system, just for a moment, you might go whim.
And then you got a problem.
Oh, yeah.
And people say, how could advanced technology crash?
Well, you run into the unexpected.
We lost a couple of shuttles, didn't we?
Right, right.
Big, expensive, protected vehicles, but.
They went down.
Unfortunately.
So the scenario is, as you've researched it, that there were two objects.
One of them crashed there on Mac Brazzle's ranch near Roswell, and the second one came down at a completely different location close by.
The Brazzle ranch is considered the Corona thing.
And the other one came out in the plains of San Augusto, out near the very large array radio telescope, which is there now, wasn't there then?
Okay.
Okay.
Talk to the rancher who owned the land.
And talked to people who were there.
And the thing about both those places is relatively easy to cover things up because there's nobody there.
Yeah.
There's no tourists going by.
Two Objects Crashed Near Roswell00:09:21
Right, right.
Also, security was a part of the life of people there.
Remember, that's where we were testing to capture German V 2s.
That's interesting.
We had two of the three nuclear weapons labs there in New Mexico, Kirtland was there.
Curtland Air Force Base, which had all kinds of classified activity going on.
There's Roswell down there, home of the only atomic bombing group in the world.
That's pretty significant.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And where security was a day to day concern.
Matter of fact, when the rancher came in, Bill Brazzle, or Mac Brazzle, came into the sheriff's office, the sheriff immediately called the base because it was his duty to do so.
Anything that might impact on the base, he was to.
You know, whether it's a drunken airman having an accident, oh, yeah, whatever.
Well, good public relations was important.
Um, Colonel Blanchard, the base commander, instructed Jesse to take one of their counterintelligence corps guys with them.
They were going to follow the rancher out because no way to tell anybody how to get there.
Yeah, three blocks this way, five blocks that way doesn't cut it out in the middle of nowhere, right?
And the reason the counterintelligence corps guy was there is Blanchard was concerned about somebody spying on him.
Sure.
And so that was the concern.
And incidentally, I've had some people say, oh, Blanchard was a loose cannon.
He got four more promotions after that.
Yeah.
He was a four star general and vice chief of staff of the United States Air Force when he died of a massive heart attack in the mid 60s.
Not small potatoes.
And if he hadn't done the right thing back then, he wouldn't have had those four promotions.
Right.
For sure.
Yeah.
He was West Pointer, of course.
So I get people.
I've had the noisy negativists saying crazy things.
Like, I had one guy, one of the anti UFO people, saying that, oh, an unknown PR guy put out.
Is this Joe Nicol?
Yeah.
Unbelievable.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
So what did he say?
He put out, he said, An anonymous PR guy put out an unauthorized press release.
Even after we'd done a program, which I pointed out, I knew his name, I'd had dinner with him, I'd been in his home and stuff, and if he had read any of the books, he would have known that.
Right.
Walter Hout.
Walter Hout, yeah.
Who put out the original story that the newspapers picked up about a saucer crashing at Brazzles Ranch.
On the instructions of Colonel Blanchard.
Amazing.
Wow.
No, that's great.
So, the thing I know, Joe Nickel and Shermer both really don't seem to know anything about the topic that they explore.
You mentioned something about the Flatwoods monster case, which is fascinating.
Yeah.
On that one, I love its explanation.
I've been to Flatwoods.
I spent a lot of time with Frank Ficino, who wrote the definitive book about Flatwoods.
He's got relatives living in the area.
He made a number of trips there.
Now, Joe Nickel had an explanation.
He went there once.
Didn't talk to any of the witnesses, which were still alive at the time.
Didn't visit the site on a hillside and came up with an explanation.
It was a six foot owl.
Honestly, Doc.
I've talked to a lot of people down there.
Nobody tells me about six foot owls down there, not even three feet.
Well, that's so ridiculous.
Well, why don't you go ahead and tell us what Joe Nichols' former profession was before he became this Mr. DeBunker guy?
He was a magician, all kinds of stuff like that.
Now, why this qualifies him to make statements about scientific subjects, I don't know.
But look, even Michael Shermer has a degree in physics, but he didn't work as a physicist.
When we debated on Coast to Coast radio, the audience voted afterward.
I got 80% of the vote, he got 20%.
Yeah, right.
He didn't know anything about the subject.
Yeah.
He hadn't done his homework.
At least when Seth Shostak was on, we debated.
I got 57%, he got 33%, and 10% said, I don't know who won.
But Shermer was, he started off with a typical example of the nasty, noisy negativist.
He was asked, what did he think about this whole UFO stuff?
And, well, it's like all those other paranormal subjects, was the answer.
You have a residue effect.
Cases were 5% of the cases you don't have enough data for.
So, of course, you can't explain.
And I leaped in like with a Mack truck.
Well, I said, and I gave several examples.
One, Blue Book Special Report 14, 21.5% of the cases, not 5%, could not be identified.
The Condon Report, according to a special UFO subcommittee, the world's largest group of space scientists, the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, 30% of the 117 cases studied in detail could not be identified.
In Richard Hall's The UFO Evidence, 18% of the cases, and I rattled off a couple of more.
And it was downhill there for him.
Why did he make the statements he made?
They sounded good, I guess, to him.
Yeah, yeah.
There are four basic rules for debunkers.
Okay.
What the public doesn't know, I'm not going to tell them.
But if you can't attack the data, attack the people.
Right.
Do your research by proclamation, not by investigation.
Okay.
And there's another one which I forgot.
I'm getting old.
I've got to stop doing this.
Now, those three are really important ones.
Don't bother me with the facts.
My mind is made up.
That's They don't bother me with the facts.
My mind's made up.
Yes, exactly.
Well, it's that myopic viewpoint that says nothing will get me outside of my information comfort zone.
Yeah.
And you make an excellent distinction about this that they're not actual skeptics in the true sense of the term.
They're debunkers, which is a big difference.
Yeah.
A skeptic says, I don't know.
A debunker says, I do know.
There's nothing to this.
Right, exactly.
That's a difference.
It's a big difference.
Well, Stan, when you see this kind of professional intimidation that's practiced at institutions and universities, what can you say to the emerging researcher who's dedicated in the field of UFO study?
What kind of advice and encouragement do you have for them?
I'm calling on all who are listening.
I've given over 700 lectures.
I come on very, very strong that some UFOs are really in spacecraft.
We're dealing with a cosmic watergate.
There are no good arguments against those two conclusions.
And this is the biggest story of the millennium.
That's coming on pretty strong.
Sure.
I've had 11 hecklers, two of whom were drunk, and over 700 lectures in 50 states, 10 provinces, 18 other countries.
I've answered, I'd once figured, over 50,000 questions.
And, you know, it's okay to have facts in hand before putting mouth in gear.
Right.
I mean, there are some rules of the game, you know.
Yeah.
But it's amazing.
At the end of my lectures, I often ask, How many people here believe they've seen what I would consider to be a flying saucer?
All flying saucer UFOs, very few UFOs are flying saucers.
Most isotopes aren't fissionable.
Fortunately for us nuclear guys, some are.
You've got to look in the right direction, so to speak.
And when I ask how many people here have seen a UFO, having defined my terms earlier, just raise your hand and I'll just point and count.
And the hands go up hesitantly.
They trust me, but.
And I point and count.
One, two, three, four, five.
By the time I get over here, the hands go up vigorously.
Typically 10% of the audience believes they've seen one.
And then I ask, how many of you reported what you saw?
90% of the hands go down.
Oh, yeah.
So that's the difficulty, in other words.
It's not that there aren't sightings.
I get people saying, even now, I get notes, how come I haven't heard about any sightings recently?
Well, MUFON, Mutual UFO Network, gets over 700 reports a month.
Yeah.
A month.
Yeah.
So.
I'm trying to encourage people.
There are more than a dozen PhD theses that have been done, but professionals are scared to stick their neck out entirely.
They'll take away my tenure.
Nuclear Powered Space Systems00:15:09
I see, yeah.
So, what I'm saying is the biggest tool in the debunker's armory is ridicule.
Yeah.
And that gets in the way.
And fortunately, we're at a point in time where things are changing because of Kepler.
If I had told you 60 years ago that, well, you know, there are planets all over the place, and surely we're not the only ones, people would have laughed their heads off.
Frank Drake of the SETI movement, S E T I, silly effort to investigate, that stands for Search for Special Intelligence.
He was saying a few years back there might be as many as 8,000 people, places in the galaxy where they could send signals from which they could send signals.
And today a good number might be 8 billion.
Yes.
So our specialness has shrunk just a minute.
Yes, absolutely.
But Menzel was saying, and he knew better, Even forgetting the MJ12 stuff, to talk about hundreds of light years makes no sense.
Right.
Because we know how many stars there are in the neighborhood, you know.
And so we have reached a special point now.
We have joined the club, if you will, where we come to realize that the major source of energy in the universe is nuclear fusion.
Uh huh.
Nuclear fusion.
That's what goes on in the stars.
Well, it turns out you can use fusion for propulsion.
I worked on a study as early as 1962 on fusion for interstellar travel.
We use the right stuff in the right way and kick particles out the back end of a rock that have 10 million times as much energy for particles as they can get in a dumb old chemical rock.
Yes.
A million times.
Now the stars are within reach.
Of course, we Earthlings aren't going to use it for that.
We're going to use it to kill people.
And people don't realize we have exploded.
2,000 nuclear weapons on this planet.
Only two against people, Roshan and Nagasaki.
Thank goodness.
But from an alien viewpoint, we're a primitive society whose major activity is tribal warfare, we like killing each other.
In World War II, we killed 50 million of our own kind.
50 million.
I don't think the kids get taught this in school, frankly.
We destroyed 1,700 cities.
We're not nice guys.
Right.
I get people saying, why don't the aliens just land and say hi on the White House lawn, you know?
Yeah, oh, yeah.
We're not friendly beings.
It's a no fly zone in the first place, the White House.
Yeah, right, right.
But every government would love to get its mitts on a flying saucer.
And based on your research, you're convinced that we have.
Oh, of course I think they have.
Yeah.
Roswell, Aztec, there are other ones.
Yes.
So they go into that just a little bit.
If they capture, they kind of do a crash retrieval.
They hear about a crash, they have a special team that will go out and get one of these things.
Certainly.
And people say, well, come on, Stan, what are they doing that for?
I say, well, anytime there is classified material being moved from one place to another, there is paperwork in case something crashes.
I had to carry my own slides for a presentation at a classified meeting because the slide people were a little late.
So I had the right clearance, I developed the information.
But I get called in, and when your flights leave, we're going to be keeping tabs on you.
This goes in your briefcase.
It doesn't get separated from you.
You don't put it in the trunk of the car.
They scare the heck out of you.
Oh, yeah.
And if your car crashes, we will have people there.
We don't care about you, we care about the classified material.
I was so glad to get rid of that stuff, you won't believe.
Oh, I can only imagine.
So when you think of all of the nuclear weapons that are moved from place to place, You have to have retrieval times.
And one time they were used, teams, was Cosmos 954, a Soviet satellite, which had a nuclear reactor on board to produce the electrical power.
Russians launched 30, 33, 34 of these.
United States only one.
They were way ahead of us.
Compact nuclear systems, about this big, used in space.
And it crashed in northern Canada near Great Slave Lake.
And there was a team up there within very short order, and they scoured over 100,000 square kilometers looking for wreckage.
Of course, it was radioactive, so that made it a little easier.
You could do it from the air and so forth.
But there was a retrieval team there ready to go.
You know, this isn't surprising when you think about it.
And back engineering is an old business.
During the war, if an American plane crashed in Germany, the Germans were looking at it.
Oh, yeah.
And if a German one crashed in England, we were looking at the wreckage.
For sure.
What materials are they using?
What can we learn?
And it's a game that's as old as, you know, bigger shields, stronger spears, whatever.
What are these guys making their spears out of?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, if you were to guess, in a sense, based on all your research, what do you think that they have re engineered in terms of the technology at this point?
I think we've learned a lot.
But, you know, people say, well, if you've got a crash saucer, why aren't you flying saucers?
Well, think about it.
If you went to Christopher Columbus in 1493, hey, great job, Chris.
Got a little project for you.
I got two nuclear submarines here and unlimited money.
I'd like you to build me another one.
Could he have?
Not the slightest chance in the world.
Right.
If you gave this cheap digital wristwatch to the smartest people on the planet the year I was born, 1934, could they have built another one?
Not a chance.
I mean, they know it was a watch.
It's got, you know, there's a battery, it's electrically powered.
Yeah.
But they had no way to analyze the chip.
And even if they could have, there was no way to duplicate it.
Intel spends a billion dollars on a new chip facility, you know.
Right.
So it sounds easy, but it isn't.
Now, I think we've learned a number of different things.
Okay.
I get a kick out of it in my book, In Flying Saucers and Science, there's a picture of me with the Apollo 12 command module.
Right.
And on it.
You know, it's a round, blunt body.
Yeah.
And when I was growing up, everybody thought a high speed craft in the amateur has to be like the X 15 pointy nose, sharp wings, highly streamlined.
Here you've got a dumb, old, blunt body.
It looks much more like a saucer than your old notion.
Right.
Well, I think.
But once I found out that we'd run wind tunnel tests in late 1947 on round craft.
Oh, really?
I'll bet I know where that idea came from.
Yeah, interesting.
And another example I used to do a weekly science commentary for CBC Radio up here in Fredericton, New Brunswick.
All kinds of topics, including UFOs.
Did it for five years.
It was fun.
Great.
And I was reading an article about new and better permanent magnets, neodymium iron boron.
And I had been using as an example of what you would do if you had a crash saucer in your Roswell.
You'd send out pieces to the best classified labs, not to any university, to the best classified labs, you know, Oak Ridge, Los Alamos, Hanford, places like that.
What is this stuff?
And a guy would tell you, I don't know where you got it because he didn't have a need to know, you understand.
Yes, exactly.
It's a combination of samarium and cobalt.
Why would anybody put those two together?
Not your problem.
You send it out to other people, measure the electrical, magnetic, thermal properties of this stuff.
There are lots of little pieces.
And it comes back to you and says, gee, I don't know what this stuff is, but it's got the highest magnetic moment of any material I've ever measured.
Great permanent magnet.
And that's what was used in ghetto blasters, as a matter of fact.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
More magnetic strength and small space for the spheres.
Right.
Well, I'm reading this article that I'm going to do a program on, and the new, better permanent magnet material, neodymium iron boron.
These are real.
I'm not making these up.
Okay.
And at the end of the article, it says, The original work on samarium cobalt was done at Wright Air Development Center in Ohio.
That's Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
That's where the wreckage went.
Yeah.
So I'll bet you I just laughed.
I mean, but I know where that idea came from.
You can tie those two right together.
Yeah.
And the thing is that you learn things.
And the thing that's most certain to have you accomplish your goal in an advanced research and development program is knowing what you're trying to do can be done.
So that makes sense.
So they do the advanced technology research and then they're off and running.
Yeah.
Well, one thing that puzzles me about space and modern technology, and I know you've studied the space program for a long time, I wonder why, after all these successful lunar missions and all the hoopla around landing on the moon, NASA turns around and completely abandons the moon missions.
They stop talking about manned missions to Mars and space exploration.
I mean, what do you think is the reason for this mysterious lack of action on their part?
Boy, I wish I knew.
Everybody I knew in the space program back in the 60s figured we'd have a base on the moon by the end of the century.
We certainly would have gone to Mars, I don't know how many times, but at least once.
And it was as if, I jokingly, you know, Nixon said it was because of the money.
The money was that we built Apollo 18 and 19.
They were built.
Yeah, they had already spent the money on it.
Yeah, and the Navy is going to be out there, whether you're looking for an astronaut, can.
Coming back in a command module or not.
I mean, there's not a lot of extra money associated with that.
Yeah.
One obvious answer is the alien said, get the heck off our moon.
I know.
Well, listen, I think that's a really logical assumption and probably in the final analysis makes the most sense.
And again, all that's necessary to believe that would be the understanding that an advanced civilization could travel into our solar system and build some bases on the moon, which would be an excellent vantage point to observe the Earth.
What we're missing.
I think, because I get people saying, Well, Stan, come on, you're telling me aliens send a craft from another star system and it crashes when it gets here?
I said, No, I'm not telling you that at all.
What do you mean?
Well, think of the nuclear powered carrier.
I'm talking about an Earth excursion module.
Between the stars is one technology realm, one problem.
How do you get from that star system to this one?
And the second is once you reach the atmosphere of a planet, how do you go around where you have to worry about heating and drag and lift and all these kinds of things and gravitational field and all that sort of stuff?
So, what you're talking about is basically like a shuttlecraft that's coming from a main ship.
Yeah.
And we have many reports of huge motherships, for want of a better phrase.
Yeah.
Twice the size of an aircraft carrier, the way one pilot described what he was watching.
We have data on those.
We have, not we, the government has radar information about such systems.
And so we have a direct analogy here.
Two part system.
I mean, the 747 doesn't land in my backyard when I want to travel somewhere.
Right, right.
It doesn't even land at the local airport.
I got to take a taxi to the airport, a small plane from that airport to a bigger airport, Toronto, for me, usually, and then a big airplane from Toronto.
So that's how we do things.
Right.
So we are not spending a lot of effort looking at things sensibly.
And why not?
I'm not sure.
Maybe not only the aliens, but there are people without imagination.
Uh huh.
Many programs.
People understand the fundamental principle of advanced technology development.
Progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable way.
Okay.
The future is not an extrapolation of the past.
You have to change how you do things.
The laser isn't just a better light bulb.
Yes.
Entirely different physics.
It really is.
Yeah.
Well, you did that excellent book, Science Was Wrong, with Kathleen Martin.
Yes.
Which was about the lack of vision of the scientific community.
And how some of the really big players have been totally off base about crucial things.
Like the astronomer who said in 1903, October, Simon Newcomb, top American astronomer, so important that when he died a few years later, the president attended his funeral.
Wow.
He said, if there's one thing he was certain of, man would never fly in a vehicle.
Two months before the Wright brothers' first flight.
In 1956, a year before Sputnik, The British astronomer Royal said, Space travel is utter bilge.
Why would anybody spend the money?
What we need is better instrumentation for astronomy.
And what field has benefited the most from the space program?
Astronomy.
Absolutely.
Because you can start looking from above the atmosphere, which makes all the difference in the world.
But this happens in medicine, it happens in many different areas where the word of the big shot carries sway, even though he doesn't know what the heck he's talking about.
Oh, yeah.
We have to look forward, not backward.
And Sure, the first systems, you've got to be ready to spot something strange.
X rays was one thing, penicillin was another thing.
So, in our modern era, seeing these unidentified craft performing these incredible maneuvers in our skies should be the odd thing that makes us stop and say, ah, something powerful and unusual is happening here.
And that's where MJ 12 comes into the picture because they would have had to look at a couple of different things.
Think of an old Western wagon wheel without the rim.
The information all goes into the center, but it doesn't go around the spokes center.
Messages from Off World Visitors00:03:29
And they would have to look at not only measurements made by classified equipment, radar, the film taken by pilots of military aircraft chasing UFOs.
You don't see that out in the open.
Right.
Measurements made with instruments on board aircraft, you know, electric and magnetic fields, how the color changes around the saucer, et cetera.
And then, of course, the best sighting reports.
And when we recover another one, recovery team, as you mentioned, and bodies, we got to look at the makeup of the bodies, too.
Oh, yeah.
And what's different about these guys, if anything.
And so you need something like Majestic 12 to sit in the middle there, bring stuff in.
And it's multi service, if you will, just like the Manhattan Project.
Hmm.
They didn't just go to one place and say, You guys take care of everything.
You have a coordinating bond, the Atomic Energy Commission, but you have people in many different places doing parts of the puzzle the people who make the bonds, who store them, who figure out how to deliver them, how to make measurements with detectors, and all the rest of that.
So it's a complex thing.
This was done in secret.
A total of more than 40,000 people were involved in the Manhattan Project.
We looked at all the different places.
You had Nobel Prize winners working at Los Alamos in secret.
Getting their mail in a post office box and saying, I mean, what I'm saying is, these are big programs.
When you decide there's a reason for doing something, the United States can bring to bear an enormous amount of effort.
They're going to make it happen.
Yeah, if somebody decides this is what we're going to do.
Well, that's an excellent point.
And certainly once we learned that this UFO presence was using super sophisticated technology, Acquiring information on that technology and trying to replicate it obviously became a top priority for us at the time.
Yeah.
So let's go a little further using the failure to go back to the moon as our jumping off point.
You know, what about the possibility that these off world visitors did in fact communicate with our leaders and basically put them on notice or express some concern?
Then there's a lot of witness testimony actually that points to this scenario.
What do you think of this?
Now, like I say, I have no idea whether they've been told.
There's a book by a guy named Art Campbell about.
Ike's meeting with aliens twice.
Yes.
In New Mexico, as a matter of fact.
Yes, exactly.
And the basic idea there is that these aliens approached Eisenhower and communicated intense concern about our nuclear program at the time.
Well, what I'm saying is that somebody might have taken that to heart.
There have been instances in the Soviet Union as well as in the United States of shutting down nuclear tip missiles.
Uh huh.
Bob Salas, S A L A S. He's written an excellent book.
And he was down in the hole managing the facility.
And the saucers were at the gate up above.
It gets radioed down.
And then 10 missiles went down, ICBMs, one after the other.
Now, there's no way that can happen, but it did.
Aliens Concerned About Nukes00:02:54
I see, yeah.
And they did a big investigation.
They still don't know why, but it's happened other places too.
Yeah.
Well, what do you think is the message there?
Are they testing our facilities or is it a threat?
I think the message is we're aware of you idiots and we don't want to see this happen.
Ah.
Because remember, when you throw into the picture that they know that we know about nuclear fusion, all those H bombs and stuff, that we could take our brand of friendship out there.
Who would want it?
Yeah.
I think they want to quarantine us.
And not, look, obviously, if they wanted, they could denude the whole planet.
Sure.
But that's apparently not what they want to do.
So, you know, when people ask me why are aliens coming here, you know, gas, food, lodging, next exit.
It's a weekly radio show, idiocy in the boondocks.
They're mining.
People don't know that the Earth is the densest planet in the solar system.
Okay.
A cubic foot of Earth, some people think all planets are the same.
They're not.
A cubic foot of Earth weighs more than a cubic foot of any other planet in our solar system.
You say, so who cares?
Well, that means there are more heavy metals here.
And these are rare oddballs iridium, osmium, rhenium, platinum, tungsten.
Gold is a very dense metal.
Osmium is twice as dense as lead.
Very heavy.
And it's rare.
We know from the spectrum of the stars.
Yeah.
So maybe they're coming here to steal goodies.
And we don't realize.
You know what uranium was used for 100 years ago?
It was a yellow coloring agent for dinnerware.
Oh, that's great.
That's illegal now, you understand.
Yeah, yeah.
Nuclear dinner plates.
That's good.
Yeah.
And the Navy uses zirconium.
Who ever used zirconium for anything?
But it's got very good nuclear and corrosion resistance properties.
So maybe they had to work out a whole industry to make tubing and pipes and so forth, atoms of zirconium.
Now, titanium, the SR 71 uses titanium.
High strength at high temperatures and so forth.
So these are things that we didn't give a darn about 100 years ago.
So who knows what the aliens are here for?
Rare Earths, China's cornered the market, but all the.
Electric cars use rare earths.
And so they're worth something if you've gotten in your backyard.
Right, right.
So what I'm saying is why did all those 49ers go out looking for gold?
They're up to Alaska.
Thousands of people went looking for a heavy metal.
Rare Earths and Advanced Metals00:02:12
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Well, if you look at it from the point of view that they started visiting here very heavily after our atomic program kicked in, it does seem to be connected somehow.
Well, I would think so.
I would think every civilization is concerned about its survival and security.
That means you've got to keep tabs on the primitives in the neighborhood, but only close tabs on those primitives to show signs of being able to bother you.
Yeah.
World War II was the turning point.
All of a sudden, we were going to be in a position to bother them.
Yeah.
And all it takes is the will and the money and so forth.
And you can't wait for the other guy to attack you before you say, oh, I better watch out for these bad guys.
Right, exactly.
If you can, you just as soon stay where you are, you idiots.
You know, and so I'm very concerned about our world, doesn't seem to be concerned about a planetary viewpoint.
We're all here on the same planet.
You know, we're all in it together.
A nuclear holocaust is going to make a mess in a lot of places.
Yeah.
Not where I live, because nobody would want to bother us.
What I'm getting at is we need a whole new outlook.
I was very pleased when the Pope a few years back said, No reason that our brethren in outer space can't be made by God just as we are.
My first thought was, Who's he been talking to?
Yeah, right.
Well, Stan is one of the best researchers in the UFO field out there.
You know, really the guy who went into the deepest side of the cover up and brought us back so much knowledge about how this works.
How do you feel our modern attitude to the UFO phenomena has progressed?
You know, if you could compare us now going into 2015 versus where we were in, say, the 1990s, have we lost some ground in terms of our research and understanding of the field in this current period, say, over the last decade?
Encouraging Others to Speak Up00:10:08
Frankly, I think we have.
Not enough young people coming into the field, there are some exceptions.
John Greenwald, the Black Ball.
Oh, yeah.
Website.
He's a young man, and boy, he's collected an awful lot of information.
Definitely.
But I think we need to get the ancient academics and fossilized physicists off their butts.
Their attitude of arrogance is truly incredible.
And I don't say this because I've had problems.
I haven't.
I've had a good press around the world.
And 11 hecklers in 700 lectures, two of whom were drunk, is not a bad record.
That many of you talk about sports, religion, politics.
So I'm trying to encourage other people to speak up.
And MUFON is gearing up, so to speak, to be doing more stuff, Mutual UFO Network.
And I'm glad.
I hope to be at this coming year's.
I was supposed to be at last year's, but the heart attack got in the way.
Sure.
But I think you're right.
And there was just a conference in France this summer about how to compile a big database, which we need to unify.
There are a bunch of different databases, but you can't interact with each other.
Somebody over here can't get into that one.
Right, right.
So I'm optimistic.
And the Europeans are ahead of us.
They have done more.
The French have an official government group investigating UFOs.
The United States, and it comes as a shocker, there was a General, Air Force General Carol Bolander, who in 1969 was asked, What should we do about Project Blue Book?
This is after the University of Colorado study recommended it be closed.
And he had no connection with them.
He was working on the lunar excursion module engineer.
Air Force General.
Okay.
And we found 10 years later, we found a memo that he'd written that recommended Blue Book indeed be closed because it wasn't serving any useful function.
In this memo, he said, Moreover, reports of UFOs which could affect national security are not responded, they're not investigated by Project Blue Book.
Instead, there are two different memos that are used to provide rules.
Is there only reports which could affect national security?
Uh huh.
And then two paragraphs later, he says if we close Project Blue Book, we won't have a place for the public to report sightings.
However, as previously noted, reports which could affect national security will continue to be investigated using the procedures designed for that purpose.
Now you realize the Air Force has lied every minute.
The program was closed as a result of that.
Yeah.
In '69.
They've lied all that time.
We don't have any interest in UFOs, there's no national security implication.
Now, I talked to Boland, or I think I'm the only one who has, out in the UFO community.
Ten years later, when I finally got a copy of this, it's easier to find people who have somewhat unusual names.
John Smith's are tough.
Right.
And I said, It sounds to me like you're saying that there are two separate communication channels for UFO sightings, those which could affect national security.
And the example I used was such as a UFO going down the runway at a strategic air command base where nuclear weapons are stored.
By definition, I've heard of cases like that.
By definition, that's a national security issue.
There's not supposed to be anybody there.
Sure.
And those of, say, my wife and I go out at the end of our driveway and see a saucer fly over, big deal.
It happens all the time.
Yeah.
He agreed with me.
Yes, two separate channels.
No major news group has had guts enough to publish that.
It's amazing.
We've got a cosmic Watergate, and it's being treated like Alice's Tea Party.
Yeah.
We need more effort.
Matter of fact, the theme of Newfound this past year was press coverage.
And my paper a few months ago, which I didn't get to present but is included in the proceedings, dealt with press coverage and how bad it has been and where do we need to go from here.
And also pointing out that much of the badness comes from the misrepresentation on the part of the ancient academics and fossilized physicists.
Absolutely.
People say the government can't keep secrets.
Right.
An absurd remark.
Definitely.
No appreciation for the fact that.
Most advanced research and development doesn't get done in academia.
Right.
It's done in industry and in the national laboratories.
They're great at keeping secrets.
Yeah.
But people don't want to admit that.
You mean they didn't tell me?
Yes, exactly.
And that brings us into something that you're known for pointing out, which is intelligence infiltration of the media.
Yeah.
Now, they may have set the tone early on through covert intel channels into the very top of the reporting outlets.
Just saying, don't cover this UFO topic in a serious manner.
Well, yes.
Good observation.
As a matter of fact, within two weeks of the start of World War II, there was an appointment of a czar to get rid of stuff that you don't.
instructions what not to talk about.
Right.
I don't think the office is closed myself.
Yeah.
The.
The thing here is that we need to collect the data that's already out there and we need to recognize that there are implications here for man's future.
We're a planet, not just a bunch of nationalistic groups.
No government wants to admit that, though.
Everybody wants their people to owe their allegiance to that government, right?
Definitely.
Not to the planet.
It's time for some changes to be made.
Yeah.
Especially when.
Tough as it sounds, we're not as important as we'd like to think we are.
Yeah, right.
You know, that's the big kicker.
Aren't we the big cheeses, kind of thing?
Well, no, as a matter of fact.
And I hope that my great grandson grows up in a world that's different, in other words.
But look at how big a trillion dollars on this planet is spent this year on things military.
Hmm.
Trillion dollars.
Look how many kids die of starvation every day.
That tells you a lot about this planet, doesn't it?
No matter how you slice it.
Yeah.
So I'm concerned about the future, and I think that everybody should be.
And I think we need to stand back and see how we look to others.
I wish the gift to Giuss to see ourselves as others see us, as Bobby Burns said.
Right.
I think we need that.
Oh, I couldn't agree with you more.
After this amazing career that you've had, just pulling the UFO cover up into the light.
What do you think is the best course of action for the researchers out there who are following in your footsteps?
There's a lot of data out there.
And I think we need to get, you know, Max Planck, great German physicist, once said that new ideas come to be accepted, not because their opponents come to believe in them, but because their opponents die and a new generation grows up that's accustomed to them.
Oh, that's an excellent quote.
And I think there's a lot of truth in that.
Ideas that sound incredible today.
Won't sound incredible 10 years from now.
Well, your books are the best on the topic.
I really recommend your book, Top Secret Magic, which is all about MJ 12 and the UFO cover up.
And you have many more excellent books that are available at your website.
Thank you.
Can you give us the web address to go to?
Let me give my website, www.stantonfriedman.com.
And it lists my books and includes Special Report 14.
No place else to get it.
Right.
So people, and it gives my email address and all the rest of that.
Now, Stan, maybe you can clear up one last thing for me.
I hear in some circles that you're called the godfather.
Is that true?
Some people have referred to me in such a way that I can say I'm the godfather of ufology.
I agree with that 100%, by the way.
Well, I really appreciate you being here on the show today.
Of course, your work has been a great inspiration and influence for me.
I think anyone who's interested in learning about the extraterrestrial presence, their advanced technology, and the UFO cover up, We'll really find the crucial information within your research and writing.
So, thank you so much for your important work.
Well, I appreciate those comments.
I am getting older, but we'll plow on at least for another year.
Well, you're so sharp in this interview.
I have to say you're at your best.
Well, I can tell the difference, but we'll work at it.
Okay, that sounds good.
Well, have a great evening over there.
And we look forward to everything you're going to be up to in 2015.
Me too.
Thank you.
Thanks, Dan.
Thank you for joining me for this fascinating episode on UFOs, MJ 12, and covert cover ups with Stanton Friedman.
You can find more special reports, interviews, and documentaries at www.darkjournalists.com.