Dr. Joseph P. Farrell and Daniel Liszt dissect a "breakaway security state" allegedly concealing advanced tech from extraterrestrial threats, linking post-WWII Nazi programs like the Bell Project to Apollo anomalies such as the LEM's sudden acceleration. They explore Soviet theories of an artificial moon, Jonathan Swift's pre-discovery predictions of Mars' moons, and secret missions hinted at by Carl Sagan. The discussion connects myths like Atlantis and the Book of Enoch to a cosmic war narrative, suggesting crop circles are calibration devices used by this shadowy group to manipulate public perception through conflicting data sets. Ultimately, the episode frames current events as a "Tower of Babel moment" where humanity faces an implicit interstellar threat requiring technological parity. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Covert Wars and the Clash of Civilizations00:02:15
Hi, this is Dark Journalist.
Today I have an exciting show for you with best selling author and scholar of deep mysteries, Dr. Joseph P. Farrell.
Now, Dr. Farrell's recent book, Covert Wars and the Clash of Civilizations, completes his master trilogy of books that attempts to uncover the culture of a breakaway group deep inside the national security state with access to amazing technology and weapons that's being concealed by covert intelligence operations.
Now, Dr. Farrell sees us entering into what he calls a Tower of Babel moment where ancient legends of Interstellar watchers and planetary quarantine come together to panic a small group of secretive paranoid insiders with deep roots to the Nazi paperclip space program.
Prepare for a journey into hidden warfare.
Here we go.
Dr. Joseph P. Farrell UFOs and the Breakaway Security State.
Perhaps we need some outside universal threat to make us recognize this common bound.
I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world.
It was not anything from this earth that I'm quite sure of.
Because being an intelligence officer, I was familiar with just about all materials used in aircraft.
And our air travel.
This is nothing like that.
It could not have been.
Joseph, it's great to have you back on the show.
I want to say that Covert Wars and the Clash of Civilizations is one of your greatest books.
Thank you.
And I noticed that there's a curveball there in the title where one might assume that the Clash of Civilizations is between the breakaway civilization and the public one, but actually it's between the breakaway civilization and.
The Tower of Babel Moment00:15:23
Somebody else?
That I kind of left as an open ended question.
Because what I was trying to do in those three books, and particularly that book, was kind of reverse engineer the policy formation culture of this breakaway national security state, whatever you wish to call it, and try and put myself in their way of thinking, their mode of thinking, since most of this is formulated within the Cold War matrix.
And it occurred to me that what they were probably confronted with in their thinking was they're looking at certain UFO activity, which at the minimum had to be considered provocative, if not hostile.
Right.
And that type of behavior would manifest itself in UFOs diving at civilian airliners, showing up at some of our hydrogen bomb tests in the 1950s.
Showing up over our missile silos in Montana, South Dakota, and so on.
I talked about this to some length at the Secret Space Conference, where they would turn off flights of ICBMs, alter the target data, do all this remotely.
In the Soviet Union, there's actually a case of a UFO that was seen over a flight of ICBM silos, and it actually initiated the launch sequence.
Wow.
So, yeah, so the Russians are scrambling, you know, to shut this down.
Yeah, absolutely.
Before, you know, they start a thermonuclear war.
And then, of course, the UFO stopped the launch sequence and off it went and, you know, left the Russians kind of stunned.
So you had activity like that.
And once you put yourself into that frame of mind and then add to this the mystery surrounding some satellites.
Let's put it that way.
Frank Edwards, in his Flying Saucers Serious Business, I think it was, points out that the Mariner 4 Mars probe disappeared behind Mars, and of course, for that period of time, it's out of radio contact.
And of course, they calculate when it reemerges and radio contact is reestablished.
Well, it took 12 extra minutes for it to reemerge.
Now, obviously, there's no evidence that this was UFO activity or anything else.
But it's strange in the context that during the 1960s, one of our Telstar communications satellites, I think it was the Telstar 4, the Telstar just went offline.
I mean, the Air Force just assumed that it had been hit by a meteorite or something and that they'd lost the satellite.
Well, a few months later, the satellite comes back online.
It just starts up.
So, adding it all together, you put yourself into the position of the national security state, and they've got to be thinking, well, okay, we've got this UFO activity.
They're doing strange things like monitoring hydrogen bomb tests and turning our missiles on and off.
And satellites are disappearing and then coming back.
So, from the standpoint of the national security establishment, that's got to be that that would have to have been assumed to be provocative, if not hostile, action because at that point, most of the communications in the world you know, it's beginning to move to satellite based communications.
That means international financial clearing that's right is moving to satellite bases.
So, that's got to be you know, that's got to be perceived as a national security issue.
So, they're going to try and respond to this, yeah, and um.
My reasoning here is at this point, given the post war period, the establishment of this secret system of finance that I think President Truman established in 1947, which is a crucial year, of course.
You have Roswell, you have the National Security Act.
Yes.
That they're going to take this secret system of finance and use it expressly for the purpose of a multi decade kind of mega Manhattan project.
To design the technologies to at least achieve some sort of parity of performance with UFO technology.
Now that's intriguing.
You know, I recently interviewed Catherine Austin Fitz, the former Assistant Housing Secretary and financial expert, and she identifies this period of the National Security Act as the creation of this mechanism for draining the public economy into this black budget UFO economy.
So there is some synchronicity there.
And that, incidentally, is an interesting.
Because Secretary Fitz came to the same sort of conclusion about the federal budget, but from a very different route.
She began to notice all of these very strange financial anomalies, mortgage fraud on a huge basis, and her conclusion was well, why would you need all that money?
Well, that money far exceeds any covert operations funding requirements in the post war period.
I mean, we're dealing with billions, if not trillions.
Of dollars.
And once you say that, then covert operations isn't going to account for that enormous amount of money.
So her conclusion was yeah, they're using this to fund some sort of technological development.
So that, in effect, is what I think is going on.
And coupled to this, with these indications of kind of provocative UFO activity, you have probably, in my estimation, The realization on the part of the national security establishment that they're in some sort of Tower of Babel moment of history again.
Right.
So they're going to go back and they're going to look at ancient texts.
They're going to see what possibly they might be able to learn from them.
I think they can learn a great deal.
You know, I've been writing a lot of books about that aspect of things.
Sure.
I think they're going to discover if they read certain texts that they're describing in as technical a language as they know how.
They're describing technological effects.
They're describing the physics.
I think that's particularly true in the case of texts like the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish, some other texts as well, the Hindu epics, Mahabharata, and Ramayana.
And they're going to look at these texts and realize, well, we're in a Tower of Babel moment again.
So we have to do something to prevent another intervention in human affairs.
So they're going to try and establish some sort of technological parity and even maybe resort.
To psychological operations of some sort against whoever it is that's behind the UFO phenomenon.
They're going to try to stalemate the situation.
You want a little bit of gunboat diplomacy.
They will try to design systems that show that humanity has the capacity to engineer physics systems on planetary and even stellar scales.
And please don't get me wrong.
People.
That I've done all this research and publication in the Nazi technology and the Nazi aspect of this story.
When I was doing that, I was accused well, you're ignoring ET, you're ignoring extraterrestrials, you know, it's not all Nazis, which I never assumed, you know, that was never my working hypothesis.
So I'm not setting ET in opposition to secret covert Nazi developments.
I think they're supplementary aspects of the same story.
Okay, that's a good clarification on that.
I think what would be great at this point would be if you could give us your basic interpretation of the Tower of Babel story and then a more esoteric interpretation based on your own research and perceptions.
Briefly, if you go back and look at the Tower of Babel story in Genesis 11, it's a very odd story because if you put it in the context of the rest of the Old Testament theological construct, every time that you have.
Intervention by God in human affairs.
It is always in the context that humanity is doing something sinful or immoral.
And therefore, I'm going to go down there and knock some heads together.
Like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Yeah, Sodom and Gomorrah.
That whole story.
And the Tower of Babel is uniquely different because it doesn't say this.
It doesn't give you that impression at all if you read the story and the text very carefully.
What it says.
Was, and the Lord, Yahweh Elohim, I think in the Hebrew, I'd have to check the Hebrew to make sure, but the Lord God, you know, noticed that they were building this tower which could reach unto heaven.
And here's the key text, which if they completed, they would be able to do whatsoever they imagined to do.
So, in other words, the tower isn't perceived as much as something immoral.
They construe it more as a threat.
In other words, if mankind is able to do this, They'll be able to do whatever they imagine to do.
Well, that implies a physics.
In other words, in my understanding, the tower that can reach unto heaven is a physics that's able to grasp and manipulate the fabric of space time.
That's the heavenly reach.
So, in other words, it's implying the ability to manipulate the fabric of space time, zero point energy, quantum vacuum flux, whatever you want to call it.
And if that's the case, then it's a threat, you see.
So the gods come down.
Interesting.
Now, you say that one of the priorities of this breakaway group is to study these ancient interactions between humans and this other force so they can understand what they're up against.
Right.
And this is where you postulate your Tower of Babel moment theory.
So, my question is when did we arrive at this Tower of Babel moment this time?
And what is it?
It's that period, in my opinion, in modern history where the breakaway group.
Realizes that humanity is entering that moment where human technology poses an implicit threat to someone.
Okay.
And therefore, that they have to get humanity through this period to some sort of parity or near parity technologically and stave off any possible intervention.
Uh huh.
That's, and in my opinion, we're still in it.
But I think it's very interesting.
If you read Lieutenant Colonel Philip Corso's Day After Roswell, he tends to be dismissed by ufology now.
Right.
But I think that Corso, he makes these kind of wild Walter Mitty claims for himself.
Yeah.
But Corso, I think, has to be read much more closely than this because I do think he's letting things out.
But doing so in such a way that if you don't read him carefully and closely, you're going to miss what he's saying.
Okay.
But one of the things that he says in that book that fascinates me is his claim that during the late Reagan administration, we were able to, quote unquote, stalemate the ETs.
Wow.
So, in other words, he's suggesting something very similar to what I'm suggesting.
He's suggesting that we were in a Tower of Babel moment.
We had to make some sort of technological demonstration of parity or near parity, and that we did.
And now things are kind of on hold.
Okay.
All right.
So, yeah, I think there's something to his logic because, you know, if you reverse engineer the decision making process of the national security establishment after World War II, this is what they're facing.
This is what they would have concluded, I think.
And they would have busily set themselves on the task of trying to create.
Technological emulations of the UFO.
And I think to a certain extent they succeeded.
Okay.
Yeah.
Corso is interesting for a number of reasons.
Oh, yeah.
First of all, I agree with you that the way he's regarded by researchers in ufology doesn't really add up to his high level of expertise in these matters.
I mean, so he had real credentials.
He was a high ranking military intelligence officer in the Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations.
Yes.
He's certainly in pivotal roles that would allow him access to the level of secret information that he claims.
And it just doesn't seem logical to assume that he's making it up.
As we know, his claims weren't exactly greeted with open arms by his military superiors.
And I know there were a few lawsuits even against him when he passed away.
So it hardly fits the profile of an intelligence operation.
You know, I can see, as you say, he may have exaggerated his own role a little bit.
But his story of ET military intervention appears to be on solid ground.
Right, right.
So what we basically get from Colonel Corso.
Is he saying pretty much what you just spelled out there, which is that Reagan and Gorbachev got together and devised a way to hold off this Tower of Babel moment, at least temporarily.
Yeah, that's exactly what I think he's saying.
Which, again, you know, that raises other interesting questions because it raises the question just what do the Russians have that they're not talking about?
You know.
Well, this is fascinating.
You know, I want to back up.
But to that breakaway security state group one more time.
Sure.
So they basically understood that this nuclear reaction had garnered some interest from this ET presence out there.
And they knew that the nuclear technology was somehow a gateway technology to emulating the performance of these UFOs.
Nazi Flying Saucers Revealed00:10:13
And that the visitors were very concerned about this.
Right.
Now, I made a list from your book of possible sources for that advanced technology in our skies since the 19th century.
You can tell me how this all works, but basically, here it is.
So, there's secret societies, post war Nazi advanced technology, the breakaway civilization inside the national security state, secret projects from other countries like China and Russia, and extraterrestrial crafts visiting the earth.
So, you have all of these as the sources for the advanced technology we're seeing in our skies.
But you mentioned something very interesting about this breakaway group, which is that they understand.
That, with the sheer number of sightings, that it suggests a production capacity far beyond the scale of anything post war Nazis would be capable of, and also what other countries could pull off.
So, they conclude that it's an ET presence, and they assume that's what they're dealing with.
And everything that they do from there forward will be geared towards not only handling international threats, but also threats coming from beyond Earth in space.
Okay, with all that in mind, they come up with the spy satellite, which is the ultimate tool for dealing with all this.
And then you bring in Richard Bissell, who was the deputy director of plans for the CIA under Dulles from the Eisenhower into the Kennedy administration.
Right.
Now, can you discuss him and his very pivotal role?
Let's go back to 1947.
And to Kenneth Arnold and his sketch that he drew of what he saw, and compare it to the Gotha 229 Horton flying wing that they had actually built and flown in 1939.
This craft still looks modern to this day.
That's how far ahead, in terms of the aerodynamic thinking, some of these projects in Nazi Germany were.
Well, if you look at this, and if you're a guy, there's a German American engineer I talk about in Covert Wars and Clash of Civilizations by the name of Alfred Leiding.
All right?
Spelled L O E D D I N G.
And Lading, interesting, if you research him, you discover that this guy had such extraordinary, astronomically high clearance in terms of what he had access to in classification.
There's no tax records for him, he doesn't have a social security number, all of this.
I mean, he was just way up there.
Well, Lading was a member of the Air Technical Intelligence Command at the time under General Nathan Twining.
He was based at Dayton, Ohio, at Wright Patterson, so therefore he's in contact with people like Walter Lippisch, who was another designer of these flying wing supersonic ramjet aircraft, which supposedly he actually tested one prior to the end of the war in Germany.
He's in contact with all these guys.
And the first thing that he thinks, and he's probably, this is an important point to understand, he's probably the actual brain of.
That put together that 1947 U.S. Air Force intelligence collection memorandum, the Shulgin Memorandum, that ufology refers to all the time, but they always go to ET.
They don't actually sit down and read it, which I take that thing apart line by line in Roswell and the Reich and show you that there's nothing in this document that indicates they're thinking in terms of advanced extraterrestrial technology.
What the document is really worried about are the Germans, the Nazis.
And Shogun even comes out and says, you know, one of our high intelligence objectives is we got to find out where the Horton brothers are.
Well, I can tell you where the Horton brothers are.
They're in Argentina building flying wing jet aircraft for Juan Perón.
And I even put a picture of one of these things in Roswell and the Reich.
You know, there you go.
This is where they are.
This is what they're doing.
So, in other words, Lading comes to the conclusion that.
Part of this has to be representing some sort of independent Nazi thing going on somewhere in the world.
Then, in 1948, it's Lading, in my opinion, that's behind that famous document in ufology called the White Hot Intelligence Estimate.
And very clearly, in that document, Lading has come to the conclusion that they're dealing with something off world.
So, what's happened?
If you look at his chain of reasoning, it's very clear what he's saying.
He's saying, okay, on the one hand, we've got something going on with the Nazis somewhere.
They're doing all this strange stuff.
But there's too much UFO activity.
And the reason he comes to this conclusion is by talking with these Nazi scientists at Wright Patterson, he's probably going to have been told.
And he performed a certain amount of flying saucer research himself.
I have a picture in Covert Wars and Clash of Civilizations of him.
Literally, with a little model flying saucer.
And where is he working on this?
Well, he's working on this for Lockheed, okay?
So, you know, connect the dots here, folks.
We've got Alfred Lading, Lockheed, flying saucers at the same time that this is going on.
Thomas Townsend Brown, of course, has some connection to Lockheed.
We don't know what.
So, in other words, they're doing this.
They're doing this.
In his experiments, he would have come to the conclusion that, you know, yeah, this stuff is feasible, but by golly, it costs a hell of a lot of money to make this stuff.
And then he's going to be talking to these Germans that he knows at Wright Patterson, and they're going to tell him the same thing.
Yeah, we did this, but, you know, it's so danged expensive.
So, in other words, the bottom line that Lading is going to come to, okay, we've got all these hundreds of UFOs out there.
It's going to cost an enormous amount of money.
And nobody on planet Earth that we know of, Soviets, you know, Argentina certainly doesn't.
We certainly don't have the production capacity to account for all just the sheer numbers of what's going on.
I think Richard Dolan, we had talked a few months prior to the San Mateo conference, and we were talking about 1947, and he mentioned that there were hundreds of UFO reports all over the world in 1947.
So, Lading, you know, he's coming to a logical, reasonable conclusion here that they're doing something.
And we don't have the production capacity.
So, this is an important point.
This means the national security establishment is not replacing a secret terrestrial origin for some UFOs.
It's merely supplementing that view with the view that that view cannot account for all of them.
So, in other words, the national security establishment has a triple threat.
So, now we get to Richard Bissell.
Okay.
The triple threat that the national security establishment would have then would be communists, Nazis, and UFOs.
So if you don't know where this Nazi stuff is coming from, you probably have a good idea.
It's got to be coming from somewhere in Latin America, but my word, South America is six times the size of Europe.
Right.
So you're going to have to develop a technology to reconnoiter.
The Soviet Union, find out where, if any, other hidden bases of some secret human project on planet Earth might be located.
And you're going to also have to develop a technology that you can turn and look up, so to speak, and see where this other stuff may be coming from.
Deep space.
Deep space, yeah, exactly.
And that's what I think they did.
I mean, this would have been, you know, just thinking militarily here, you've got to reconnoiter your enemy before you respond to them.
So.
The spy satellite technology, I think, becomes crucial.
And if you read some of this UFO activity, or pardon me, UFO literature, you discover that there are people out there that are arguing more or less the same thing that this technology was created not only to look down, but to look up.
Yeah.
Bissell, it's interesting now because Bissell, as you correctly pointed out, he's this very highly placed at the very pinnacle of the brain trust.
In the national security establishment.
This is the guy, literally, that is coordinating all of the U 2 flights over the Soviet Union and Communist China.
This is the man that was involved in some of the planning for the Bay of Pigs.
He was obviously sacked by President Kennedy after that incident.
But Dulles also places him in charge.
Of the development of spy satellite technology.
And he's also, incidentally, he's also a very close associate of Nelson Rockefeller, who is an advisor to President Eisenhower, and interestingly enough, was President Roosevelt's head of intelligence for, here it comes, Latin America.
Yeah.
Yes.
That's major.
And you've got this Rockefeller involvement in space satellites, and he's the chief intelligence officer for Latin America.
German Fusion Experiments in Argentina00:05:13
Which obviously we've got Argentina as a big piece of that, and Argentina is where a lot of the Nazis fled following World War II under the protection of Juan Perón.
Okay.
Yeah.
And people have to understand, and I know I sound like a nut when I say this, but you're not dealing with just little isolated enclaves of Nazis in fear of their life, you know, in Argentina.
You're dealing with a large compound, you know, of 10,000 square miles that the Nazis purchased prior to and during the war in Rio Negro province down around San Carlos de Bariloche, which is about 900.
Some miles southwest of Buenos Aires.
So, in other words, this is a significant chunk of Argentina.
And incidentally, this is where Richter's fusion project was based.
This was where apparently Kurt Tonk and the Horton brothers were based.
So, in other words, there's some sort of technological infrastructure there that Peron has either built for them or the Germans have used their contacts back in Europe to bring in a lot of sophisticated equipment.
We have that wartime.
Strategic evacuation that was being run by Martin Bormann and Admiral Danitz.
So, you know, they're bringing not just people, people have to understand this.
They're bringing out not just people and they're bringing out not just lots of money, they're bringing out technical equipment, blueprints, patents, and so on.
So, in other words, you know, they're going to keep the whole thing going.
Yes, yeah.
They're ready for round two.
They're going to go back.
Yeah, they're ready for round two.
Well, this is probably a good time to mention the Nazi Bell Project because you've done such in depth research on that and you drew a lot on this Polish researcher Igor Witkowski.
Igor Witkowski.
And I have to say, he really went deep into the background on this.
So, one of the things you brought up about the Bell is that we're only now finding out about it, really.
We've only known about it since the reunification of Germany in 1990.
Yeah.
So, what can you tell me about the Bell in relation to what we're discussing now?
You know, we see this amazing technical performance by these UFOs.
And then we recall the Nazis were very interested in developing alternative energy sources.
So, where does the bell fit in?
All right.
I think the bell is a central part of the story.
Even if one only.
There's a school of interpretation out there that the bell was nothing more than a very sophisticated kind of centrifuge isotope enrichment device.
Okay.
Even on that view, this would make it a technology that the Nazis would want to keep their hands on.
Sure.
Because it would enable them to enrich isotopes, obviously, for nuclear weapons.
But I don't think, you know, I do credit that school of research with coming up with a plausible explanation.
I just don't think that they're looking at the whole data set.
And here's what I mean by that if you look at the Bell story, Basically, the claims that Vitkovsky uncovered in his research were that this thing, at some point, the Nazis levitated it.
Okay.
Now, stop right there.
That's an important point.
This isn't a Nazi UFO because it's not darting around the sky and performing all these fancy maneuvers.
It's just levitating.
Right, right.
Yeah.
So, you know, I'm not.
I'm not in that school that says the Nazis came up with field propulsion flying saucers during World War II.
I think that's all nonsense, to be quite honest with you.
I talk about that in Saucers, Swastikas, and Psyops at great length.
Right.
But, you know, even so, if it levitates, then they realize they've discovered something of significance.
And I think they set out to discover this.
In other words, I don't think it was accidental.
I think they deliberately contrived this technology as a gateway technology for so called free energy, for field propulsion, and ultimately, you know, Nazis being Nazis, they want to turn it into a weapon.
Sure.
But, um,.
The interesting thing is, if you look at Dr. Ronald Richter down there in Argentina, supposedly performing these fusion experiments for Juan Perón, the first thing you discover, if you really dig into the details, is that his equipment that he is doing these experiments with was supplied to him by the Allgemeine Elektricitätsgesellschaft, AEG, German General Electric, essentially,
Radioactive Fuel for Time Dilation00:08:49
is supplying him all this equipment.
Now, this is in 1951, so you know, West Germany is not even a sovereign entity anymore, but here we're getting all this sophisticated equipment from the AEG company.
Well, the AEG company, in turn, if you research the Bell, it's the company that is associated in the German literature with the Bell project.
It's that very company that did all of these plasma experiments that Richter himself was involved with.
With the AEG back in Nazi Germany.
So he's key to the Bell Project.
Yeah, bingo.
Yeah, he's ding, ding, ding.
You got it, all right?
Gotcha.
You got it.
And Richter, when you read him, he's claiming that he saw these results in plasma experiments that he was producing for Juan Perón in 1936.
So, you know, this is beginning to get interesting because in 1935 you had that.
Paper by Gabriel Krone that he won the prize for at the University of Liège in Belgium in 1935, talking about the tensor equations of general relativity and unified field theories back then.
And he's saying, Yeah, looky here, we can take these tensor equations and use them to explain anomalies that we electrical engineers are encountering in big networked electrical systems.
So, what he's told you.
Kind of backhandedly, is yeah, we have the technology to engineer unified field theory coupling effects between electromagnetism and gravity right here on the laboratory bench.
And bang, you know, at that point in Nazi Germany, all unified field theory publications in the open literature just, you know, there's some sort of lid of security that gets slammed down real fast.
So they know they're onto something big.
Yeah, they know they're onto something big.
You know, Walter Gerlach, here's another connection for you.
The Bell Project.
And the German atom bomb project were both headed by Dr. Walter Gerlach.
Now, Gerlach is associated with the famous physicist Stern that won the 1921 Nobel Prize.
Gerlach was his assistant in performing that experiment, the Stern Gerlach experiment.
You can Google it.
Well, Gerlach is not a nuclear physicist, he's a gravitational physicist.
He's a specialist in magnetism and all of this stuff.
So, this is not the kind of guy you'd have heading up.
An A bomb project, so it's interesting that he's connected with the Bell project.
So, in other words, all the clues to me suggest the Bell really has only a kind of a peripheral connection to their atom bomb project.
What they're doing with the bell is something entirely different.
A secret kind of physics?
A secret physics, yeah.
Yeah.
A secret physics.
Because, again, in Vitkovsky's and my kind of reverse engineering of the bell, what do you have?
You have a plasma inducing substance, radioactive substance.
It's spun in counter rotating cylinders.
So there's your differential rotation in the sun, folks.
And the bell is constructed.
The guy that designed the bell is a guy by the name of.
We'll get to him in a moment.
Okay.
And the bell is designed so that the center part of these counter rotating cylinders, the center axis, is the cathode, and the rotating hollow drums themselves are anodes.
Okay.
So, in other words, you've got a polarized electrical device spinning up this stuff mechanically, probably electromagnetically as well, cohering the plane of spin of the material inside, and then they zap it.
With gobs of direct current electricity.
So, what do you got?
You've got a plasma inducing substance that's being put into a plasma form by high voltage electricity in a polarized device.
You've got a model of the sun.
Okay.
Yeah.
And once you've said that, then, and you couple it with what Richter tells the US Air Force oh, yeah, you know, I've noticed this little coupling effect between plasmas under electromagnetic straits.
Stress and rotation, and this couples to the zero point energy, and voila!
Right, right.
So, you've said that this is potentially makes the atom bomb look like a firecracker.
Yeah, not just the atom bomb, the hydrogen bomb.
Right, right.
So, now, but the bell and the reaction around it when they were testing it was very unpredictable, and there are stories.
That it killed a number of the people around it who were working on it.
That's correct.
In Vykovsky's research, sorry again, we scheduled an interview when they decided to do construction and mow the lawn.
Well, we're lucky at parts though.
We're getting nice, good, clean sections.
It's okay.
All right.
In Vykovsky's research, when the bell was first tested, it was tested.
In a mine, in a chamber underground, interestingly enough, lined with ceramic bricks and covered with rubber mats that had to be taken out and burned and the entire place scrubbed after each test.
Now, that's a little data set we'll get back to.
Okay.
When it was tested initially on the first test, seven of the scientists themselves performing the test died.
Okay.
Wow.
Organic materials like plants and so on and so forth, plants exposed to the field of this device reportedly decayed in a matter of mere hours, sometimes a little bit longer, to a kind of blackish gray goo.
Incredible.
And they did this without putrefaction.
Now, I think this is indicating something very significant because let's go back to the radioactive substance that they used as the fuel in this device.
Right.
Why would you use radioactive fuel?
One reason would be that if you are getting any sort of field gravitational or anti gravitational effects, that will change the rate of radioactive decay.
So, in other words, you can measure the field effect you're getting by the change in the radioactive decay.
You're getting a kind of time dilation effect from this device.
And that might explain why these very strange effects resulted whenever the bell was turned on.
Now, I mentioned the ceramic tiles and the rubber.
It's very interesting that if you look at the Kecksberg device, I think I'm the only one out there that's pointed this out.
And this Kexberg is the UFO that crashed in Pennsylvania that the military came and got.
But the citizens around Kexberg took a look at it, and it looks a lot like the bell.
It looks a lot like the bell, and the dimensions that people report for the Kexberg device are very similar to the dimensions, the actual physical dimensions of the bell.
Oh, fascinating.
Joseph, do we have any idea where they took this Kexberg UFO?
One of the witnesses in the Kexberg story, a fellow by the name of Myron, Stan Gordon has interviewed him.
Well, this Myron says that he was working at a construction company at the time, and all of a sudden they got this emergency order from Wright Patterson for 4,000, guess what?
Ceramic bricks.
Wow.
Wow.
So, you know, up he goes to Wright Patterson with his truck full of ceramic bricks, you know, and he walks into this warehouse, and there's this big kind of parachute silk screen material hanging over something that.
That the silhouette that he sees being projected is a kind of acorn or bell shaped thing back there.
And this is where he's supposed to leave all of his ceramic bricks.
So, yeah, I think there are interesting data set connections between the bell and the Keksberg acorn.
Well, it's got that resemblance and the shape, but it is acting like a UFO.
Hidden Technology on the Moon00:12:49
And we discussed earlier that although it could levitate, it couldn't achieve the advanced moves of a UFO.
Yeah, but here's the problem the Keksberg acorn is 1965.
So, 20 years.
Yeah, 20 years.
What can you do in 20 years with a lot of people and a lot of money that you've got from a hidden system of finance?
Okay, gotcha.
Gotcha.
Right, right, right.
Okay.
Now, one more thing.
I mentioned Curt Davis.
Okay.
I want to tie this up.
Curt Davis was a member of Von Brown's rocket team at Peinamunda.
All right.
But he's also involved with Richter at the same time with the AEG company.
In Germany, doing quote unquote plasma experiments.
All right?
Okay.
Now, Davis, if you research this man, so in other words, he's got some connection to the bell.
If you research this man, you'll discover that Davis's field of expertise was not in rocketry at all, it was in high voltage arcs, you know, high voltage power and measurement.
That was his specialty.
And plasma.
Now, interestingly enough, Davis ends up in this country in our paperclip program and also ends up as the senior flight administrator at Cape Canaveral during Apollo.
Oh, that's intriguing, yeah.
And on top of that, as I pointed out in Covert Wars and Clash of Civilizations, I think, or maybe it was Breakaway Civilizations, that Davis was also.
Issuing these UFO memoranda for NASA, you know, what to do if NASA sees a UFO.
He's also coordinating that activity.
So, in other words, that tells me that possibly there's a hidden technology involved during the Apollo program.
I've always thought that during the Apollo program.
But there you are.
And interestingly enough, let's go further.
After Roswell, after Roswell, for some inexplicable reason, Dr. Davis was singled out by U.S. Army counterintelligence and they reopened his file.
To revet him for security.
Oh, they didn't trust him.
Yeah.
Yeah, right.
Okay.
Well, it's interesting that you're saying that he was put in charge of this rocketry, but his background wasn't really in the rocketry.
So obviously they're using this secondary technology, this covert technology.
Now, you think it's involved with the Apollo project and getting to the moon.
Is there something about the rocketry?
That America possessed that tells you we couldn't get to the moon and off the moon with just that.
Yeah, there is.
Okay.
Now, don't get me wrong.
I'm not an Apollo hoaxer.
No, I know.
I know.
I've never been to that camp.
There's no question around that for this conversation.
Sure, I know that.
But there are some peculiarities.
Yes, right.
One of the peculiarities that just to this day mystify me, when I was a boy, you know, I used to.
Build my little model rockets in the backyard.
I was fascinated by this stuff.
So, I actually, when I was about 11 or 12 years old, I actually wrote a letter to Dr. Von Brown.
He actually wrote me back.
I wish I still had that letter.
Oh, yeah.
But Von Brown is key here because after the Apollo moon landing, Apollo 11, which, let's Since we're talking about weird coincidences, Apollo 11 lands on the moon on July 20th, 1969, which is a peculiar anniversary.
I'm trying to think of what that is.
It's the 25th anniversary of the failed assassination plot against Adolf Hitler.
Oh, right, right.
Yeah, okay.
Yes.
So, you know, the eagle has landed.
So, whose eagle are we talking about here, guys?
So, after this happens, Von Braun gave a little interview in.
Time magazine.
It's at the bottom of the page in one of those little boxes that they had.
And Fun Brown said that, you know, once the mission was past the equigravisphere, you know, the neutral point of gravity between the Earth and the Moon, which he goes on in the article to say was about 43,500 miles from the surface of the Moon.
And three weeks later, all of a sudden, he's resigned all of his posts at NASA.
He's gone to work for Fairchild Industries, and that's it for Fun Brown.
He said too much.
He said too much.
And what he said was that number.
Because that number, if you crunch it, is a number that's far in excess of the one sixth gravity of the moon that we had been told.
Right.
Because if that were true, that number would be more like 23,500 miles from the surface of the moon.
Okay.
Okay.
Gotcha.
Now, I remember this.
You know, I was a kid.
I used to read my little weekly readers in elementary school and all about the one sixth gravity of the moon, and they'll be able to.
Lead tall buildings with a single bound and drive golf balls, you know, and all of this stuff.
And so that's the first thing to bear in mind.
The second thing now is if you recall, I think it was Apollo 16 or 17, you had that televised liftoff from the moon.
And this is something that the Apollo hoaxers pointed out, or kind of early on when all that was getting started.
And I thought, no, that's not right.
Because what you see is, you know, you see the television camera, there's the LEM and the top of the LEM, and then all of a sudden the top of the LEM just goes, whoop!
Okay?
Now, to the Apollo hoaxers, that's just a bit of bad special effects.
Right.
Because a rocket.
Accelerates geometrically per unit of time.
It starts off slow and gets a little faster.
Okay?
Okay.
But that's not what you see going on with the LEM.
It just goes boop.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Up she goes.
And I look at that and I say, now wait a minute.
If the moon isn't one sixth the gravity of the Earth, then that little rocket on the LEM isn't going to be sufficient to get us off.
So that implies that if we went and got off, That there's some other thing that they used to get us off.
Right.
Right.
And it's very possible that what they were utilizing actually was the technology around the bell.
That's very possibly the technology around the bell, which would explain why Davis is where he is at that point.
You know, they do a little technology trade here.
Yeah, we'll let you, you know, use some of this stuff, get to the moon, you know.
But we want.
We want access to whatever it is you may find up there.
Right.
We want veto power over whatever is found up there and if you disclose it.
Yeah, I think something like that may have happened.
But yeah, the signature of the LEM taking off, to me, isn't bad special effects.
It's the signature of another technology altogether in use.
Very, very interesting.
Just a real quick side note they always show the flag waving on the moon.
What do you think of that?
I don't think that it's anything significant.
That could be explained by any number of things.
The electromagnetic bombardment from the sun, movement that they jiggled the flag when they were trying to plan it that keeps moving in a vacuum.
I'm not all that convinced that that's all that significant.
Okay, that's not a big deal.
Not to me.
Okay, well, since I have you here on the moon part, I want you to answer a couple of quick questions on it.
There's one more about there's a lot of.
Rumors that when they got up there, they found bases or traces of bases that were there.
How legitimate do you think that is?
Well, let's put it this way there's a lot of stuff, talk on the internet, and a lot of it's pretty wild.
Oh, yeah.
So I tend to distance myself from that.
But that said, there's, to my mind, Daniel, there's just too many.
Very odd pictures of very odd things on the moon from sources that are legitimate.
You know, once you look at some of this stuff and really look at it, it appears like there is artificiality on the surface of the moon.
Okay.
That, at least, I think is the case.
You know, the most famous example was pointed out by the Soviets, the Blair Cuspids.
You know, you've got these little obelisks.
Or whatever they are, and they appear to be arranged in a very nice, neat little geometrical pattern.
Well, that doesn't just happen.
So, you know, it's not just us that have been saying it.
It was really the Soviets that started pointing out some of the weird anomalies of the moon.
And NASA and the West have been kind of, no, no, that's not true.
So, yeah, I do think that there are things there, anomalies on the moon, that to my mind, Prima facie indicates some sort of artificiality was involved in their construction.
You think something like, you know, one of Richard Hoagland's favorite pet ideas is about this C3PO head.
What do you think of something like that?
Just what's your opinion on it from looking at it, from what you know about it?
Well, from what I've seen, to me, you know, assuming the photograph hasn't been photoshopped or something, and assuming it to be genuine, it looks artificial to me.
Yeah.
I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion.
Now, what in fact it may be, that's a different question.
I'm not so convinced that it necessarily is some sort of android or robot or what have you.
I see.
But yeah, it's at least indicative of artificiality.
Okay.
But again, you know, the philosophical problem here, Daniel, is the real problem.
Do we trust the photos from NASA that we see, or is a game being played with us?
This is the same government that told us a 6.5 caliber bullet from a misaligned telescopic Manleker Carcano was fired in less than seven seconds.
Went through all these bones on people and reemerged in more or less pristine condition on the wrong stretcher at Parkland Hospital.
So it raises the philosophical question.
Sure, they're the masters of the covert misinformation story.
They know how to give us the story to fight about for years and years, too.
Uniquely, you know, the European Space Agency, Gerhard Neuköm in Germany, in Darmstadt, has just been releasing lots of these pictures that the Europeans are finding.
You know, it's really the German Space Agency, let's be honest, but that they're finding out there.
And he's just releasing all this stuff without much comment.
And if you look at it, you're thinking, oh my God.
Right, right.
Yeah.
So, you know, unless they're in on the disinformation campaign, which I kind of doubt, you know, and you've got the Soviets, you know, Something's going on out there.
I'm sure sometimes it gets ahead of them and things slip out.
Sure.
Yeah.
And they try and backpedal.
Right, exactly.
But one of the things you said, it's funny in the book, is that you said, oh, yeah, I've seen a UFO.
Soviet Scientists Spot Artificial Bodies00:03:23
It's the moon.
Tell me what you mean by that.
Well, you know, I'm not the first one to have problems with the moon.
Isaac Newton, you know, there's a famous quotation by Isaac Newton that said, the moon is the only thing that gives me a headache.
So.
Isaac Asimov, you know, he knew and was trying to gently get people to really stop and think about what the moon is and why it's there.
Just stop and think.
The favored model back then was that the moon was some sort of chunk of Earth that had broken off in early formation.
Well, that would mean that the moon rocks brought back should be of equivalent age of the Earth.
The unfortunate thing.
Is that Apollo brought back rocks from the moon that were older?
Oh, yeah, right.
Either they landed there or it was indigenous lunar material, which was probably the case.
So then they started talking well, the moon was captured at a very early stage of the solar system.
Now stop and think about that.
If you have a wandering celestial object the size of the moon, which in the Earth moon biplanetary system, the Earth has the largest satellite body in terms of size comparison to the parent planet of any.
Of the satellites in the solar system.
Okay.
You know, the moon is just enormous compared to the Earth if you compare the satellites of, say, Jupiter to Jupiter.
The moon is enormous compared to the Earth.
So, in other words, you've got this thing kind of careening into the solar system and it enters the gravity well of the Earth.
All right, now what happens if you enter the gravity well and you're captured?
Well, it's going to speed up as it approaches the Earth and then as it moves away, it's going to slow down and that's going to cause.
This kind of big elliptical orbit.
That's not the orbital signature that you see in the moon.
What you see in the moon is something in a very nearly perfectly circular orbit at precisely the distance from the Earth to blot out the corona of the sun during eclipses.
And it's also rotating around its own axis in such a way as it revolves around the Earth that you only see about 60% of the lunar surface.
And it's always the same surface.
So, yeah, this is all coincidental accident of orbital mechanics.
Well, again, if it's a captured body, you're going to see a much more elliptical signature than you see.
So, in other words, somebody slowed it down.
Somebody parked it there.
And as a matter of fact, again, it was the Soviets.
It was the Soviets that pointed all of this out back in the 60s.
There were Soviet scientists that wrote in their journals, even in the English language journal Sputnik, back when that was published by the Soviet Union, that, you know, as far as they were concerned, the orbital mechanics don't work for capture, so it has to be some big artificial body.
Why Mars Has Surprises00:05:03
Right, right, right.
They just came right out and said it.
And that wasn't the first time the Soviets said strange things.
It's inexplicable.
It's inexplicable in terms of just conventional natural object physical mechanics.
That's the problem.
So, yeah.
I tell people every time I see a full moon, well, that's just one big, huge UFO up there.
Right.
I find that so fascinating.
One of the things you mention in your book is about Jonathan Swift, who was the British writer.
And do you want to go into that?
I don't know where you're going with this.
This is so great.
So he mentions the Mars satellites Phobos and Deimos.
And Deimos.
Can you say what both of those names represent?
Phobos in Greek is fear.
Themos in Greek is trembling.
That's fascinating.
Really interesting.
That's another question to ask ourselves.
Who gets to name these things?
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
Where do the names come from?
Sure.
Yeah, Swift was.
Swift is a big puzzle because here he is in the mid-1700s writing his.
Political satires.
And in the middle of writing his political satires, he just happens to toss out there.
Oh, by the way, Mars has two satellites and they're in the following orbital periods, okay?
And the problem here is that Phobos and Deimos weren't discovered until Asaph Hall in the late 19th century.
That's so interesting.
Now, the mystery gets really bizarre because when Swift gave the orbital periods, he gave them accurately enough to what was really discovered.
Before they were discovered.
And here's another problem.
Yes.
That was pointed out by, oh, Shalakashvili or something like that.
I forget the, I've got the book in the other room.
Right.
Russian astronomer that was the one that pointed out that Swift had done this.
He pointed out that Phobos and Deimos were objects, and Hoagland has pointed this out as well.
Were objects that could easily have been seen with the telescope technology, not just in the 19th century, but in the 18th century.
Huh.
Huh.
Yeah.
So the question is, why weren't they seen until the late 19th century?
But apparently, Swift may have seen them.
So how did he see them?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So either they weren't there, you know, Hoagland's take is they weren't there before they were discovered, and all of a sudden they are there.
So, in other words, someone parked them there.
Yeah.
Or they were discovered a long time before they were supposedly discovered by somebody peering through a telescope in Great Britain who decided to keep it secret and tell John Swift about it.
Okay, right.
Yeah.
You know, the mysteries get deeper and deeper.
Right.
How does astronomy deal with it that Swift mentioned it 150 years before it came out?
Do they bother dealing with it?
As far as I know, they don't even know about it.
Okay.
The only guy that I'm aware that pointed this out was this Russian astronomer.
His book, Intelligent Life in the Universe is the title of it, was translated by Carl Sagan and published with the Russian's name and Carl Sagan's name.
Sagan apparently had translated it without the Russian astronomer's permission.
Oh boy.
So, you know, Sagan knew about it.
But other than him, nobody seems to, you know, big deal.
You know, who cares?
Well, to me, that's a huge mystery.
That's a whopper.
You know, why would Swift have said something like this and do it accurately?
And then, why was nobody else seeing this until Ace of Hall in the late 19th century?
Yeah.
So it raises a lot of questions.
Oh, that's so interesting.
You've mentioned before that some of the things that these more traditional astronomers, like Sagan, were saying are in some ways even more far out than some of the fringe theories.
Oh, okay.
I got you.
Yeah.
I do think that Sagan, you look at him closely, look at his published work.
Even his novel Contact, you look at what he says, and he gives little hints that he knows that there's something going on.
For example, one of the most famous things that he said was, quote, Mars has surprises.
Ancient Texts and Atlantis War00:15:12
Okay, right.
Okay, Carl, what kind of surprises?
And he never, you know, Sagan just doesn't go there.
He'll lead you up to the water, but he won't make you drink.
And he doesn't take a sip himself.
Here's the water.
But yeah, he says things like this.
Sagan pointed out in one of his books, I don't remember which one, that there appeared to be all sorts of pyramidal structures all over the surface of Mars.
And again, he just kind of tosses that out there.
He doesn't give you much commentary.
Interesting.
Where do you think he's getting that from?
Oh, I think very definitely he's got some sort of inside track to NASA.
I think he saw probably very early on some of the NASA photos.
He certainly had contacts in the Soviet Union with colleagues there and probably was.
Given a certain limited amount of access to whatever the Russians had photographed and discovered.
So, you know, there's no question in my mind that he knew a lot more than he was letting on.
Uh huh.
Do you think it's fair to say that we, at least publicly, have given up on the moon shortly after the Apollo programs?
And why would we?
I mean, what would be a good explanation for abandoning that whole quest?
Well, that's a great question.
And I talk about that a bit in the.
Clash of Civilizations book.
There is, it is inexplicable to me the public reasons that we never went back.
Apollo 18 had the crew ready, the booster was built and paid for.
So, in other words, everything was there, and all of a sudden we cite budget problems.
There are some people out there that do believe there were two more secret Apollo missions.
I don't know.
What to make of those stories yet because, you know, at this stage, they're still stories.
There's not really any good corroborative case being argued.
There's not really any good documentation.
But there are people that suspect that we did have a couple more secret missions.
Then you get the we were warned not to go back crowd.
Yes.
Which I think is an interesting theory because, as I pointed out in the book, There are esoteric traditions, manuscripts.
The Book of Enoch, for example, talks about some sort of boundary or quarantine zone at the orbit of the moon around the earth.
If you look at Henry Cornelius Agrippa, his so called three books on occult philosophy, he mentions a quarantine zone.
But in his case, I believe it was at the outermost.
At the orbit of the outermost planet of the solar system.
Right.
Now, that to me is very interesting because I like to think analogically.
And, you know, I wrote this book a few years ago called The Cosmic War, and the subtitle is Interplanetary Warfare Modern Physics and Ancient Texts.
And, you know, I do believe that there was a war fought in this solar system.
That, as a consequence of that war, the planet that is now the solar system, pardon me, the asteroid belt, was blown up, and on and on we go.
And I look at it from the standpoint of what happened after World War I.
Well, what happened?
The Allies told the Germans, you know, don't build any more airplanes, don't build any more heavy artillery, please, and just to make sure you don't, we're demilitarizing the Rhineland and we're putting a demilitarized zone.
30 miles deep on the east bank of the Rhine River.
So, in other words, it was a quarantine zone.
Right.
Okay.
And I'm looking at these ancient texts and I'm thinking, well, it would appear that these traditions, they're very old, you know, all the way back to the book of Enoch.
They're very old, so where are they coming from?
And there's really no explanation for this in these texts, they're just there.
And I'm thinking that perhaps we're looking at some sort of relic or legacy of this cosmic war, that maybe there was, you know, at the end of the fighting, there was a kind of interplanetary Treaty of Versailles.
Yeah.
And we're putting a quarantine zone around you little monkeys on this planet.
And we don't want you out here, you know.
Yeah, stay back.
Yeah, stay back.
Stay back, please, you know.
So this implies, you know, I'm familiar with the cosmic war and the information you have in that book.
But just to simplify the whole thing, the basic idea is that humanity achieved some level of advanced technology in the ancient past.
And we had interstellar visitors, and eventually we fought it out.
Sure.
The basic idea?
Yeah.
It was either that, or in my preferred version, you look at all the indications in ancient texts that somebody was here and kind of genetically engineered us into existence, and that they were humanoid in form.
I like to refer to them as the cousins or the genetic cousins.
They might look so much like us that we couldn't tell them from us.
Okay.
You think of it that way, and then you look at the way the texts themselves refer to this war.
It's always kind of a civil war.
It's just like World War I.
It's a big family fight.
The Kaiser's the grandson of Queen Victoria and the cousin of Tsar Nicholas.
Excellent point.
That's right.
It's a big family fight.
You look at the ancient texts, and that's kind of the impression they give you.
This is one big, huge family feud.
And at the end of it, When everybody's blowing each other to smithereens, well, we're going to put this quarantine zone around the earth, wherever it is.
That's kind of the way I look at it.
So, yeah, I think it could have been a civil war, it could have been us versus them.
Who knows?
Does Plato's story of Atlantis play into that as well?
As they seem kind of super technologically advanced in their own way.
Yeah.
And they're destroyed very quickly in his story.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think.
The crux of the story seems to be in line with what you're talking about.
Oh, yeah, I think so.
And I'm not one of those that discounts other interpretations of the story for a very important reason.
And I laid this out way back in Giza Death Star Destroyed.
And it's kind of the same take that.
Hamlet's Mill, George de Santayana, and Van Dechent take in that book that these myths are carefully crafted with deliberately to have several layers of meaning, each of which is true.
So, in other words, I think you can look at Plato's Atlantis story and understand it to be one of these very deliberately contrived.
Multi layered myths that's true on a multitude of levels.
Okay.
So, in other words, I don't have any difficulty with it referring to a lost civilization on Earth.
I don't have any difficulty with viewing it also as an allegory of a lost civilization out there.
Because let's look at what an ocean symbolizes in an ancient text.
The ocean not only refers to earthly oceans, but to the ocean of space.
And for a continent or planet to be submerged in the ocean, you see.
So, in other words, it's operating on a multitude of levels.
Right.
Paul LaViolette even pointed out that if you crunch the numbers in the Timaeus or the Cratius, if you crunch the numbers, one of the things you get with the layout of the Atlantean canals is the stationary wave profile of a proton.
Really?
That's extraordinary.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I pointed that out in one of the Giza Death Star books.
Okay.
So, yeah, it's a multi layered.
Level of mythology that we're dealing with.
So I don't have any problem with, you know, well, Atlantis is Antarctica or Santeria or what have you.
I don't really have any problem with that.
I just think that people have to get out of their minds that there's one and only one proper interpretation of these types of texts.
There may be many.
There may be many.
Okay.
So let's just take the basics with it.
That's a civilization, it builds up high technology.
It basically gets punished by the gods at a certain point.
Right.
Plato.
Yes, exactly.
Well, Plato said that, well, he got the story from Solon, and Solon got it from a priest in Egypt.
Right.
So if you go to Egypt now, you can get the sort of root of some of these texts, let's say.
And what's the Egyptian story for the kind of destruction and the battle with the gods?
Okay, the Egyptian story, I lay that out in the Cosmic War.
And just to let people know, that book, that particular book, I deliberately intended to be kind of the keystone in the arch of all the other books.
Okay.
Okay, so in other words, that book, in my mind, intentionally, very deliberately, relates to all of the others.
All right?
Right.
In that book, I refer to a group of texts known as the Edfu Temple.
Texts.
And in that book, you get the Egyptian version of Atlantis.
These texts are literally on the walls at the Temple of Edfu.
And there's not even a translation of them out there.
You have to rely on secondary sources to find out what they are.
Yeah, that's another strange little thing that you run into doing research like this.
And in the Edfu text, you do have the first time, you have the mountain of the gods, you have a war.
That is being fought of some sort.
It's kind of dimly hinted at.
And you put it into context, and I think, again, you're dealing kind of with that deepest layer of Plato's Atlantis story, where you have some sort of war of the gods in high antiquity, and this leads to the situation we're in today.
So, yeah, there's definitely Egyptian provenance to all of this.
And wait till you read Thrice Great Hermetica in the Janus Age, because.
Because there's an Egyptian connection there, too, right at the end, that is, it's another one of those hits you right in the head.
I can't wait.
I've just started that one, actually.
I just got it.
And this title is so interesting Thrice Great Hermetica and the Janus Age Hermetic Cosmology, Finance, Politics, and Culture in the Middle Ages through the Late Renaissance.
I was hooked immediately by that.
Now, the interesting thing about the Egyptian part in this is can we draw, since so much of the Sumerian texts inform the version of the Bible that's come down to us today, can we take this destruction of Atlantis story and then the Edfu texts?
That you just referenced and bring in the Tower of Babel story and somehow draw them all together.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think this is the reason I call it the Tower of Babel moment rather than the Tower of Babel because what I think you're looking at is a mythological complex where you have different cultures that are telling you the same story and they're telling the aspects of the story that they've preserved for whatever reason.
If you look carefully enough, you find a similar story, like I suggested earlier, in the Mayan Popol Vuh.
I review all of these stories in the book Grid of the Gods.
You find it in Mesopotamian texts, Atrahasis epic, and so on.
You find it in Ugaritic texts that I talk about in Cosmic War, Edfu texts in Cosmic War, the Epic of Ninurta, which is.
One of the most bizarre texts.
Where is Ninurta?
What does that come from?
Well, Ninurta is a Babylonian god.
Okay, okay, yes.
But you read it.
And in fact, I put in Cosmic War the whole epic in Cosmic War and make people read it because it's like reading the index for a Sears catalog.
It's just about that exciting.
I mean, you're thinking, what's so epic about this?
It's just nothing but this long.
Endless, bizarre inventory.
That's all it is.
And I make people read it because, okay, how does this qualify as an epic?
Why would you preserve this text?
And it is.
It's nothing but a catalog.
It's nothing but an inventory.
Well, what it's an inventory of, if you read it carefully, is it's an inventory of the tablets of destinies, the stones that Nunurta recovered during the latest act of the War of the Gods.
And what does he do?
Well, let's go back to World War I.
And the Allies telling the Germans at Versailles, well, you're not going to build any more heavy artillery.
We don't want you to build any more ships.
We want your army to be really small.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Crop Circles as Conjuring Symbols00:11:55
So that we don't have to go through this again.
So that's what you have here.
You have an inventory of an enemy's technologies, some of which in the epic you read are being deliberately destroyed.
Because we don't want to go through this again.
Yeah.
Some of them are being carted off and used in other ways or other places.
And then there's a peculiar category of stuff that can't be destroyed that they hide.
Uh huh.
Aha.
Yeah.
Aha.
And I'm thinking, okay, the Germans.
Yeah.
You know, they took apart the Paris gun after the end of World War I, classified it so deeply that.
You couldn't talk about it.
You know, that was the gun that they were shelling Paris with from 70 miles away.
Exactly.
And they took all their siege guns apart and put them as smokestacks, which magically reappeared during World War II.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's such an interesting corollary between this ancient story and what happened.
You know, there was a segment earlier where we were talking about the Tower of Babel moment, and you mentioned Enoch.
And I wanted to see if you could go into the Watchers in Enoch and how that relates to the Tower of Babel.
You know, I find the Watchers very unusual.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, the Watchers, the Anunnaki, the Nephilim, the sons of God, the gods, every culture has some version of a contact with something that is quasi human, all right, but more advanced.
Okay.
And that's really what I think the Watchers are.
The activity that's described in Enoch is interesting because.
They're not called the Watchers for nothing.
Watchers watch.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, why would you need Watchers here to look at what the monkeys are doing on this planet?
Well, if you've fought a cosmic war, what are you going to do?
You're going to have your military attaches, that's what's going on here.
You're going to have your military attaches in your embassies keep a really close eye on those Germans or on these monkeys.
Right.
So, you're going to have people there.
To make sure, you know, pass on intelligence, file reports.
Oh, they're building this tower thing now.
Yeah, right, right.
Or, oh, they're setting off hydrogen bombs.
Oh, well, we better go take a closer look at that activity.
Yeah.
So, yeah, you know, I think what you're looking at possibly is just an intelligence operation.
I mean, I read the text and that's what it looks like to me.
Okay, okay, interesting.
So, what do you think of this assumption?
After this cosmic war takes place, the advanced technology goes underground, and the secret societies keep it safe and transfer it secretly over thousands of years.
And you write something very interesting actually about crop circles and what they represent, and how they're almost like a conjuring symbolism, and that the mechanism to achieve this conjuring is actually transferred down through the ages by these secret societies so they'd know how to do it.
Can you tell me a bit about how you see crop circles?
Circles and because your interpretation is very different, and there are a lot of interesting angles to it.
Well, again, if we're the breakaway civilization and we're going back and looking at textual traditions of possible interference or contact with humanity, obviously, within the esoteric literary tradition, you have this vast amount of ceremonial magic.
Particularly in the West, where you have all of these, you know, look at a typical grimoire.
You have all of these very intricate geometrical shapes that you're supposed to draw and invoke whatever intelligence that this seal purports to correspond to.
Right.
So you're going to be thinking, all right, we may not be dealing just with people in possession of nuts and bolts technology.
We may be dealing with other people that are very, very different that would respond or attempt to communicate.
In this fashion.
So, I reproduced in that chapter several crop circles and pointed out the interesting resemblance of them to some of these seals that you find in occult grimoires of ceremonial magic.
Now, that implies something.
That implies that whoever's making them has to be familiar with the Western ceremonial magic esoteric tradition.
Right.
So, that tells me.
The first thing, the most obvious thing it tells me, is that whoever's making them is probably human and has that kind of knowledge and is displaying these things to see what pops up.
And there's another aspect to this that is very important in that part of the book, and that is that the way I'm construing crop circles is if you look at the studies that have been done, they appear to have been formed under some sort of intense microwave.
Energy.
They appear to have very anomalous magnetic characteristics after the legitimate ones have been formed, and so on and so forth.
Well, you look at the developments of human radio and radar technology and their roles in so called scalar devices, scalar physics, and so on.
What you're dealing with are patterns that could very easily be created.
In my opinion, by microwave interferometry of some sort.
And that will generate, that kind of interferometry can generate little balls of plasma, little ball lightning or plasma balls that are often seen at the same time around crop circles.
So there's a technological explanation for it.
So the way I look at it is crop circles are possibly kind of a calibration.
Device.
They're doing all this to see how finely tuned they can make and shape their signals.
And if they can do that with their signals, they can achieve a whole lot of stuff.
And kill two birds at the same time.
We're testing our technology.
We're putting out a little bit of a disinfo op for the Crop Circle crowd.
This is ET communicating with us.
And they're doing a little bit of ceremonial magic to see if, in fact, there's any sort of response.
So, I do think that there is a human, just like I think with UFOs, I think there's a secret human technology that can account for some of the activity.
Right.
But I don't view that in opposition to somebody else doing it, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
That's interesting what you said about the plasma balls because we do often hear about lights around these crop circles making them, and everyone always assumes that they're UFOs and that these aliens are making them in the field.
Mm hmm.
It could be that what's interesting about the crop circles, and I've always felt that the efforts to debunk crop circles have always been absurd because they're just too plentiful and they're just too uniquely designed.
And when you really go into that, you see that there are genuine phenomena for the most part.
Yeah.
Well, this is my question in relation to the breakaway civilization and crop circles.
Do they want us to believe, the breakaway folks, that is, do they want us to believe that there are ETs of some type out there?
Or they don't want us to believe that there are any ETs at all.
How does this work?
Because they seem to be promoting both memes at the same time.
Yeah, good question.
I think they want a bit of both, and I think it's because they want to keep, let's put it this way, they want to keep, and again, I'm using military terms, they want to keep their long term strategic options open.
So, in that sense, they're pushing both means at the same time, and that accomplishes something else.
These people plan their operations.
To work at a multitude of levels simultaneously, to accomplish a multitude of objectives at the same time.
Oh, yeah.
And if you don't get that about the way they operate, then that is so crucial because they can accomplish several goals.
Another goal with crop circles could be some sort of very intricate social engineering program to put out two different conflicting data sets or interpretations of the same information.
What does that do?
The first thing it does is it makes you passive before the information because you're not able to act on the basis of conflicting perceptions.
So it's a wonderful social engineering tool.
They do this all the time.
I mean, if you think carefully about the way they tailor presentation of information.
Last year, the group in Syria were freedom fighters.
Now they're ISIS and they're our world's worst enemy.
Oh, yeah.
So we're getting constantly this double set of.
Conflicting data set.
They do other things, I'm convinced, that are partly social engineering experiments with possibly some deep consequences.
One of them being, is they put out false factual stories.
This person, you know, famous person died today, blah, blah, blah.
Then you wake up two years later and find out that person's still alive.
Right.
So, what are they doing?
Why are they doing this?
Well, they're keeping people confused, but I also think that they're running a much grander experiment on the relationships of group perception to the physical medium.
Because again, quantum mechanics tells us that there is an observer effect on the physical medium.
So, what do you do when you change perceptions in this fashion?
Does that have a physics consequence?
So, they may be doing some very, very weird, wild, bizarre.
High octane, really out there experiments like that with some of these stories.
I don't know.
But that's kind of what I think they may be up to.
And in particular with crop circles, they have, as you say, they've kind of been pushing both means.
Well, this has just been great having you here to go so in depth on these very deep and esoteric subjects.
I want you to know that we all appreciate your great work.
Of course, I have so many questions left for you, even though the episode is wrapping up.
Visit Gizadeathstar.com Today00:00:50
So, we can shoot another short version if you're up for it.
Yes.
Okay.
Now, I want to point everyone to your website, which is www.gizadeathstar.com.
It's an outstanding website, and it has so much information, and there's a store there with the books on the site, right?
Yeah, I have a bookstore there.
If they want to order the books, they can do it right off the website.
I'm sure they will.
Thanks again, Joseph, and we'll talk soon.
All right.
Thank you, Dan.
Bye-bye.
Okay.
Thank you for joining me for this powerful interview with Dr. Joseph P. Farrell on UFOs and the breakaway security state.
You can find more special reports, interviews, and documentaries at www.darkjournalist.com.