Jack Sarfatti recounts a CIA-funded consciousness project tracing back to 1953, alleging recruitment of gifted children by figures like Walter Breen and Eugene McDermott. He details collaborations with SRI researchers Russell Targ and Hal Puthoff, claiming intelligence agencies acted as "useful idiots" for extraterrestrial time travelers while developing warp drives and zero-point energy. Sarfatti asserts that the Strategic Defense Initiative stemmed from his 1980 memorandum and that similar interdisciplinary efforts continue today, challenging mainstream skepticism with alleged documents linking Hollywood, billionaires, and biblical entities to advanced aerospace technology. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
Time
Text
Time Travel and Flying Saucers00:15:08
Let's start this thing off by sort of giving you a soft introduction.
You're a theoretical physicist.
Yeah.
Been doing this your whole life.
Yes.
You were contacted by the CIA in the 70s, is that right?
To work on some stuff with consciousness and flying saucers.
And flying saucers in the 70s.
Yeah.
And actually even a little bit before that, but that's a complex story.
Right, right.
And then your early childhood, can you explain what was going on in your early childhood when you got that phone call that one night?
From, well, who called it?
Yeah, well, I should go back before that.
Okay.
Because when I was about seven or eight, I guess, my parents in Brooklyn got divorced, and I went to live with my maternal grandparents in the Bronx.
And my grandfather was working for the U.S. Army.
And he was just like a chauffeur, he would drive out of the Garmin District, the Quartermaster Corps.
And he would drive these offices around, whatever they were doing, acquisition of materiel, uniforms in the garment district.
So I would go down there a lot.
And it was an interesting situation.
In fact, I spent a lot of time there.
And they gave me free reign of the place as a kid, the eight, 10 year old kid.
I would run around.
They had all these great laboratories and they had a cold weather lab and a hot weather lab and this and stuff.
And I was like, play there.
And then I.
I sometimes would drive around with my grandfather driving the car, sitting in the back of this Army vehicle with these Army officers, like talking.
And I was a bright kid.
They were like encouraging me to.
I had been reading all the science fiction pulp magazines coming out, 25 cents, astounding, amazing stories.
And I knew about time travel and rockets to the moon.
I wanted to be a rocket engineer and build the rockets.
And I was being encouraged by all that to do that.
And they also, I remember the subject of flying saucers came up.
So this is like maybe just a couple years, three, four, at most five years after Roswell, you know, actually less than that, three, four years after Roswell.
And then much later, I guess in the 90s, when the book by Colonel Philip Corso, The Day After Roswell, came out, I opened the book and I looked at the photograph and I said, you know, like I recognized this.
I can't be 100% sure because, yeah, I could be like manufacturing.
Remember, you can't tell.
You know, this is something that happened over 70 years ago, right?
Right.
73, 74 years ago.
And, but I think it was Corso, the main guy who used to talk to me.
Corso was.
Philip Corso, the guy who wrote, you know who he is?
He wrote The Day After Waswell, right?
Yeah, but do you know what it's about?
Do you know the story?
I haven't read it, but I've heard about it.
Okay, yeah, okay.
Well, Corso.
Is the guy who claims that he was at Roswell and that he witnessed the aliens, you know, dead aliens, and that he saw the saucer and that he had them shipped to Wright Patterson, I guess it was, back then.
And then he also claims that later on, he claims that this, I forget this general he worked for, He was in charge of the foreign materiel.
He was in charge of all the retrieved material, crash material from Roswell.
Okay.
And I can tell you a lot more.
Maybe later we get into it because otherwise it'll be too disjoint if I just jump ahead to like, there's more stuff I know about the Roswell material.
I know a lot of stuff about that.
Okay, so there we are.
I'm like, you know, a few years after Roswell happens, I'm with these guys.
I'm with the military officer, I think, or somebody like him or somebody worked with him because they were talking about flying saucers.
I was being talked to, you know, flying saucers.
And then, okay, so then I moved back with my mother when I'm about 13 in Brooklyn, and that's when the phone call happened.
I'm alone, and my mother's somewhere else.
It's a summer night.
It's a nice, warm summer night, probably August.
And the phone rings, and I pick up the phone, and I hear, you know, first, I could hardly hear, I hear just like, um, like you know, like coordinates, you know like numbers like seven six, that yeah, but in a strange voice and but very low, and then and i'm trying to listen, I don't quite, you know, can't get it, and then the volume increases, volume increases and I hear also clunking like switching circuits.
Oh, I also had I was reading a book at the time on the early computers, mechanical relay computers called Switching Circuits, BELL Laboratories.
So i'm hearing like the clunking.
So it's like, it's like a computer.
Okay, What I thought, you know, what people thought of computers, well, 1953, hardly anybody even knew what a computer was, but I did, you know.
And so, and then it gets louder, and then Stephen Hawking.
You know, Stephen Hawking.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Well, you know what he sounded like because he couldn't talk?
The metallic voice.
It's the Stephen Hawking voice in 1953.
Okay.
I'm hearing this right, and it says and identifies itself.
As a computer on board a flying saucer from the future.
Back from the future.
Okay?
Verbatim.
Well, I'm sort of paraphrasing, but yeah, I mean, I'm paraphrasing.
You said it was on a flying saucer, though?
Yeah, it was said.
Well, I think it said it was on board a spacecraft from the future.
Okay.
It may not have said flying saucer, but I was into flying sauces already by then.
It's a time machine, time travel.
Right away, I'm told it's time travel.
And they said they are contacting several hundred, I think they said even 400.
I think I heard the 400 young receptive minds that they want to teach their technology to.
Bear in mind what's happening now with the congressional and all this stuff.
They want to teach their technology.
And at first I thought, because I was a pretty streetwise kid, and I thought it was a joke.
I thought it was a joke.
Because I'm not.
Out of touch with reality.
How old are you?
I was 13, 1953, 13 years old.
And I'm trying to think who's, okay, go, okay, I got the joke, you know, who's doing this.
And then suddenly it occurs to me, none of my friends of my age group were as smart as me in terms of science.
You know, they weren't into all this stuff.
They were like normal kids.
I was an abnormal kid.
I was a nerd.
But these kids, yeah, they're just all American, you know, back, you know.
And so it couldn't have been a kid.
And also, none of them had access to the kind of technology that can make a cold metallic voice, right?
And I said, I've got to be an adult.
It's like going through my mind.
And then it said, that could be dangerous.
There may be weirdos around.
But then it said, so yeah, I let it continue.
And it said, I had to now tell them.
out of my own free will if I wanted to participate in this project.
And then, you know, did you ever see this thing with the, like you had the little devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other shoulder and say, do it, do it, don't do it, don't do it, you know, like, and I'm thinking to myself, no.
I think, you know, internal dialogue, no.
But then I feel like an electric shock go from the base of my spine to the back of my head here.
You know, like it's, you know, like an electrical feeling.
And I hear myself saying yes.
All right.
This is interesting.
And then they say, oh, and they also said that I begin, they said good.
And now they said I will begin to meet the others in 20 years.
So it's got to be time travel.
They're telling me what's going to happen 20 years in the future.
73.
All right.
So, and then they said, then the voice says, go out on your fire escape and we're going to send a ship to pick you up in 10 minutes.
All right.
So at this point, it's like, hang up the phone and at this point i'm scared and i'm excited right, the kid, you know, yeah and um.
So I run down into the street.
It's a hot summer night.
This is New York.
This is uh Flatbush.
This is um, it's an Irish German uh, Italian Catholic neighborhood.
You know, big church, the Irish bar, the Italian baker uh, the German bakery where I got these Charlotte Russes everything, and he has Brownstone and it's, it's everybody's out.
You know, it's a warm, beautiful night.
Everybody's out on the street, the mothers with their kids and the strollers.
It's a whole scene out of like a Broadway musical, right?
And I had a gang.
I was like, my gang, I'm looking.
So I find Neil and Norman Legata.
Okay.
Neil is my age, 13, and he's a strapping Italian kid.
I mean, he's a strong kid.
Mm hmm.
and his little brother Neil, Norman, I'm sorry, Norman is his brother, who's like 10 years old, the two of them, so they're part of my and then I run into my Winky.
Winky, who is a tough Irish kid, and our mothers, yeah, was like, well, we grew up together, and all the mothers knew each other.
And Winky, he's like a price.
He's a really tough Irish kid.
Like he'd say, punch me in the stomach, you know, he had the abs, punch me, you know.
And when I went to Cornell at age 16, he joined the Marines.
Okay, he was in the Marines.
He was in Vietnam again.
Well, no, this is before Vietnam.
No, Korea.
Wait a second.
Those are before Vietnam.
This is 56, yeah.
Okay.
This is right after Korea.
So, and he, then when he got out of the Marines, his real name is Al Bro, and he became a very well-known New York City NYPD homicide detective.
Okay, I don't know if he's still alive.
Amen.
All right.
So these are my, so we all said, the flying sauce is coming to get me, coming to pick me up.
And, you know, so the four of us kids, we go up to my place within the 10 minute period, and that's it.
Nothing ever happened.
Nobody showed up.
No, they didn't show up, as far as I know.
All right.
So did you think about that after?
Did you think, like, maybe was I being cranked?
I forgot, you know, basically forgot about it, right?
Forgot about it.
And then, so then what happens?
But then, remember, I was with all this army stuff happening before I got back to Brooklyn, right?
So then I'm going into high school, and I get involved with this kid, Johnny Glogauer, who's a year younger than me.
And he's a quiz kid.
At that time, that radio show, The Quiz Kids.
And he also went to Juilliard.
The only thing about Juilliard School of Music is for very talented kids in music in Manhattan.
So he was a student of violin at Juilliard.
He was a quiz kid on the radio.
You know, he's kind of famous.
And he was also reading Singen-Schiel tensor calculus.
He's 11 years old, 12 years old, which is, you know, the mathematics of Einstein's general theory of relativity.
Okay.
And he, in fact, they took him, the quiz kid show, there's a whole big thing in the newspapers that they take this boy genius like a Mozart of, you know, it was also Juliet.
He was famous.
He was a celebrity, basically.
And they took him to meet Albert Einstein.
You know, this is 1953.
Einstein died like two years in 55.
And so I'm the only kid that Johnny can talk to.
You know, he's, you know.
And so during middle school, basically I would spend a lot of time, me and Johnny, you know, hanging out, talking science, all that stuff.
He would be sort of teaching me tensor calculus, kind of, right?
And then there's this other kid whose name I forget, whose father was the physics professor.
at Brooklyn College, which is right next door, right?
That's my neighborhood.
We're very close to Brooklyn College in Midwood High School, where Woody Allen went.
And so we would also spend, by this time I was already in high school, like a freshman.
Well, I skipped a year.
I guess it was a sophomore.
You know, they skipped us through.
And so we would also be hanging out.
Johnny Golgau, this other kid, I wish I could remember his name, but his father was the professor of physics at Brooklyn College.
So we'd hang out in the physics laboratory at Brooklyn College.
playing around, doing whatever we were doing.
And then there's this other crazy kid named Robert Bashlow.
Robert Bashlow was about my age, Russian Jewish.
And he was also at Juilliard, piano.
And he also was making thousands of dollars at the age of 13 in the coin market in New York, Manhattan, selling rare coins.
He always had money.
So we had whatever month we want.
You want this ice cream?
You want that?
And he could play anything.
We would hang out in his parents' basement.
They had a Steinway piano.
He'd be playing Mozart, Scarlatti, Bach, flawlessly, like a concert pianist.
Wow.
Okay.
So one day he says, hey, listen, you've got to meet this guy.
So Johnny Glogauer, me, and Robert Bashel takes us up to Germantown, 86th Street in the Lexington area.
Germantown is, you know, Beautiful apartment house, and we meet this guy who's about 30 years old, named Walter Breen.
The Coin Market Genius00:09:41
Okay, Walter Breen, young guy.
And Walter Breen, so we start hanging out a lot going up, you know, weekends.
Walter Breen.
Now it turns out Walter Breen, now this is interesting.
Walter Breen is running a program for gifted children run out of Columbia University by Professor William Sheldon.
Just, okay, gifted, studying, you know, so he's gathered there.
So Breen's apartment is a beautiful apartment.
Actually, it was a mess because they didn't clean.
But, you know, he had sculptures and books.
It was, you know, he was a real intellectual place.
People would come from Ayn Rand, from all kinds of people would show up there.
It was kind of like an enriched atmosphere and they would talk.
It was like a salon.
And we were part of that scene.
But at times, these guys in black suits, like the men in black, would come up from Albuquerque, from New Mexico.
And they would lecture us.
This is the McCarthy era.
This is Eisenhower's president.
And they would lecture us on the Russian threat, the Soviet threat, communism.
And how it's important we learn physics.
And they were talking about flying saucers.
We want you to figure it out.
Okay.
And then also they would test us for psychic powers.
They would do like run, you know, like the different tests to see if we could move objects with our minds.
Right out of X Men.
Right out of X Men.
And Walter didn't do too much of it, but, you know, he was like, Walt was like the scoutmaster.
Okay.
And then so this was going on.
My whole high school.
Also, I was in the Civil Air Patrol, you know, Air Force cadets, sort of, you know, flying airplanes, Griffiths Air Force Base, Civil Air Patrol for kids.
And then, so when it came time to go to college, Walter, they wanted me to go to the University of Chicago.
They had some connections there.
They had this 100-book program.
Who wanted you to go there?
Breen, you know, the people from Columbia, you know, from this.
You know this school, this X-men kind of thing where they were.
Did they have a name for that program?
Well no, there's a there's okay, there's a guy you may want to talk to him.
There's a guy named Bruce Vogel.
He's a little bit younger than me.
He was part of that program.
I later I think you know, after I already left it he was part of it, but he's the literary.
He has all of the Walter Breen manuscripts so he knows a lot about it and if you wanted to actually do some investigations probably went to.
I'll give you his phone number.
You call him uh, and so um, And then, sorry, just going back to when you were hanging out with Walter and those guys, those quote unquote men in black were showing up.
Yeah.
When you talked to those guys who showed up from Albuquerque, did you ask them who they were, where they were from?
Remember, we were kids.
We're innocent kids.
We don't know what the.
Well, no, they just told you that?
They said.
No, no.
Well, you could see they were like official, like FBI guys.
So, yeah, I mean, they were both, you know, the way the FBI dresses, they were dressed like that.
Okay.
And I remember we walk around, we go out to eat with them, and I remember one guy.
You know, Walter is with some other kids in the front, and I'm just talking to this one guy, and he's talking to me about patriotism and, you know, defending the country and all this kind of, you know, kind of pep talk, anti communist kind of pep talk.
Right.
And I did remember, well, one time they're saying, they're saying, like a critique, they're saying, I heard one of the guys say, hey, Walter, why can't you get these kids into more into the arts?
Because there was stuff about sculptures and music, and some of them were.
And Walter was saying, well, they only want to do science, math.
Okay.
So there was, there was, oh, Alan Greenspan was part of the group.
Not my group, he's in an earlier version.
Alan Greenspan became head of the Federal Reserve.
Okay?
Wow.
Other guys, Robert Solomon, a lot of people, they were like obviously creating cadres, like for the ruling class, you know, for the intelligence community to sort of like take over as part of the, you know, this is some kind of project.
And I think.
I think they were from Sandia, but I don't know if it was called Sandia Corp., which is the nuclear weapons lab, okay, you know, from the Manhattan Project, okay.
I don't know if at that early, if it was actually called Sandia, but whatever was left from the Manhattan Project, that's what they were, these guys, I think, were connected with.
Got it.
All right.
And, okay, so it comes time for me to go to college.
I'm 16, almost 17, you know, my senior year at Midwood.
And, This, they wanted me to go to Chicago because they had some program at Chicago.
But I also applied, my mother didn't want me to go that far.
I also applied to MIT and Cornell, and I got into all three.
But my mother said, Go to well, my you know, Cornell is closer to New York, 240 miles.
And also, there was a beautiful girl, Naile Gottlieb, who's going to Cornell, you have a high school kid, and said, Jack, why don't you come to Cornell?
I was kind of in love with you know, just met with her.
She was quite.
Lovely.
And so I decided to go to Cornell.
And they were kind of unhappy.
Walter's group, they were really disappointed I didn't go to Chicago.
So they had some reason they wanted me to go to Chicago.
I don't know.
I'll never know what it is.
Well, Bruce Vogel may know what it was.
So in any case, so time for me to go to Cornell.
Oh, yes.
And Walter said he had written a 10-page analysis of me, you know, for my colleges, you know, college entrants.
They arranged for me to go to these schools, okay?
And I did say, he did say, you know, in the 10-page thing, I did say, well, you know, you're young and you're emotionally immature, but you could be another Isaac Newton creating an entire new physics.
That's what I was told, okay?
I'd like to actually see that report.
In fact, this guy Bruce Vogel is looking, trying to see if there's anything in Walter's writings where he talks about that period, you know, because he, right.
And so, okay, but there's another strange thing about this guy, Walter Breen.
He was in the Army Air Force in New Mexico in 1947, around Roswell.
Right.
Okay.
And in 1947, he was in a plane crash.
Now, was it a plane crash because of the flying saucer?
He never said that.
He never said that.
Okay.
But he was in a plane crash and he was hurt and he was in the Army hospital for many months, almost a year maybe.
Wow.
Okay.
But he said, as a result, after the plane crash, he suddenly got, like he got superpower, intellect.
Seems to be connected with the crash, which suggests that it was connected with the Flying Saucer incident, right?
And he said that, and in fact, you could talk to Bruce Vogel, who knows a lot more about this.
And he said he, uh, And then he was able, I guess they had a correspondence course if you're in the military.
He did four years of college undergraduate work from Johns Hopkins University in one year and got a bachelor's degree at the end of one year for four years of work because he could do, you know, his IQ was like unmeasurable.
Wow.
Okay.
Okay.
And apparently all the kids that they selected, you know, had to be, you know, a certain level.
Okay.
So there's a, you know, it's a flying source of connection right then and there with this guy who sends me.
Okay.
All right.
So I go to Cornell.
And my professors are the guys who built the atomic bomb.
If you go to see the film Oppenheimer, these are Hans Bethe, Philip Morrison, Kenneth Gryson, you know, all these guys are in the movie, I'm told.
I haven't seen the movie yet.
I'm going to see it in London in about a month when I go back to London.
And there we are.
So I'm with the guys who built the bomb.
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Quantum Minds and Consciousness00:15:05
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Now back to the show.
I was also a singer.
I was involved in, you know, I had a musical side to me too.
And in high school, I was in the All City Chorus.
Like, for example, we would sing at Madison Square Garden with Arturo Toscanini conducting, you know, a thousand kids from all the high schools, you know.
And then, so when I got to Cornell, I got into, not my freshman year, my sophomore year, I got involved with the Cornell Gilbert and Sullivan Society, Savoyard.
Savoyard Society.
And I had a voice teacher from England, Keith Faulkner.
And so I remember he used to, I would go to his studio and maybe give me voiceless and stuff like that.
So one day I'm there and there's this libretto on the piano there.
And his close friend was Benjamin Britten, a famous English composer.
And Benjamin Britten, it's like 1957 or so.
maybe 58, I guess 57, around there.
And Benjamin Britten had just written this children's opera, Noah's Flutter, about Noah's Flood, you know.
And so I was in the, Keith produced it.
I was in the American premiere of the Noah's Flutter opera.
I was Ham, he was a kid, Ham, the son of Noah.
You know, it was the American premiere of this opera by Benjamin Britten.
But what's also interesting about this is that years later, Okay, when Faulkner left Cornell, he went back to England.
He was made head of Her Majesty's Royal College of Music in London.
Okay.
But I only found out fairly recently, last few years, I checked on Wikipedia.
Faulkner, yeah, he died.
Turns out during World War II, he was the first Royal Navy pilot, combat pilot off the carriers.
And he was an ace.
He shot down a lot of, you know, in the Battle of Britain, he was like shot down a lot of, you know, Messerschmitts, you know.
So he was a hero, World War II hero, okay.
So all these guys, now it turns out now, all right, so let me, why am I talking about this?
There's a movie called The Good Shepherd.
Yeah, you told me about this last night.
Okay, all right.
And I told you, but for the audience, the point is that, okay, back then especially, Rhodes Scholars, very tight connection between the British intelligence establishment and the American intelligence establishment and the Ivy League schools.
The Ivy League schools, white privilege, very elite.
When I got to Cornell, we were met by a frosh camp that night by Governor Averill Harriman, who was the governor of New York, who had been.
The ambassador to the Soviet Union.
And we were given a pep talk how we're the future leaders of the country, freedom, responsibility, all this kind of stuff.
Okay.
The central, okay, the origin of the Central Intelligence Agency, very interesting.
In the film, The Good Shepherd, which is about James Jesus Angleton, whose grandson is a friend of mine who I work with, James Angleton III, all right.
Who's in Florida, you know, in your place, okay?
So, in any case, in the movie, which has Matt Damon, and I think De Niro's in it, De Niro plays some spook, the CIA spook, okay?
And the opening scene of this movie is at Yale.
It's a Gilbert and Sullivan production at Yale.
Remember, I was the lead tenor of the Cornell Gilbert and Sullivan Society, which is directed from England, from the Dorothy Cart, from England.
It has English, and the Dorothy Cart.
Those people are connected with the British intelligence establishment.
Well known.
If you go look at all of them.
In fact, the Central Intelligence Agency was created by MI6, by the British intelligence.
There's a whole history of that, you know, back at the beginning of World War II.
The Americans are very naive.
Americans didn't have much of an intelligence.
So the CIA.
We had the OSS, right?
Yeah, the OSS.
Yeah, there's a whole.
I could go into the history of the OSS.
Oh, and I should also mention, yeah, now that I'm mentioning, The project at Columbia University was financed by a guy who was connected with the OSS, Eugene McDermott.
Hmm.
Eugene McDermott, who's like this van of, you know, he was, in fact, one of the founders of Texas Instruments, was a close friend of William Sheldon, was funding all this stuff to create, you know, the genius kids for the military industrial complex, you know.
All right.
All right.
Okay.
So it's all, it's very tightly connected.
So, in any case, in the opening of the movie, The Good Shepherd, Matt Damon is dressed in.
He's playing Buttercup, you know, female, because it was all male, right?
Like the Elizabethan theaters, you know, the men played the women.
And they still do that, Bohemian Grove, by the way.
They do?
Yeah.
And, well, because men are not, you know, it's a men's only club.
They allow women, you know, special occasions, but they put on shows, you know.
But the same, yeah, this was, you know, this is Skull and Bones, the same as Skull and Skull, yeah.
It's the secret society, it's that whole thing.
Right, right.
All right.
And the Illuminati, the whole thing.
All right.
And so in the movie, After Matt Damon is backstage, you know, one of his English professors, like Keith Faulkner was with me, and basically recruits him into the clandestine services.
So this is how, and this is, they're setting up, the Brits are actually setting up what the OSS, the war starts later, the OSS.
And there's a whole story about that, but it's too, you know, tangential.
So the Brits are setting up the OSS with Wild Bill Donovan.
There's a whole story I know about that.
And eventually becomes the CIA.
And Angleton, you know, is one of the early guys.
He was in the OSS and creating the Central Intelligence Agency, James Jesus Angleton, James Jesus Angleton, yeah, whose grandson, you know, I know.
So, when you were at Cornell, you were working with the guys who were a part of the Manhattan Project Hans Bethe, Phil Morrison, Kenneth Gryson, and what was Robert Wilson, you know, and oh, yes, and the important thing there is that, um, the intelligence agencies were, you know, were there watching everything, right?
Because, for example, one of my close friends in Gilbert and Sullivan.
was Ronnie Peierls, whose father was Rudolf Peierls, who I think may be in the movie there, one of the top, I guess a German Jewish physicist who escaped from Hitler and was in England, then came, was part of the Manhattan Project.
But Ronnie was living, Ronnie's older than me, so in the early 1940s, he was like eight, nine years old, and his roommate in his father's house was Klaus Fuchs.
Klaus Fuchs was an assistant Brilliant English, well, also German, I guess, was the assistant to his father, Sarutov Piles.
And so it was Klaus Fuchs who allegedly gave the secret of the atomic bomb through the Rosenbergs to Joseph Stalin.
Okay, so of course, and Ronnie's in the Gilbert and Sullivan Society with me.
He's in the chorus.
I'm like a lead, you know, and we were very close friends.
And he was actually living at Hans Bethe's house.
So Bethe's a key character in the movie Oppenheimer.
So, of course, you know, and plus, this was all the time in the middle of the thing whether Oppenheimer was going to lose his security clearance.
This is all happening around me.
You know, all my professors, they were very upset, you know, because they didn't like Edward Teller.
And these are all guys who are very close to Oppenheimer.
And like Phil Morrison, one of my undergraduate advisors, he was under investigation by Joseph McCarthy, the House Un-American Activities Committee, for being a communist agent.
Being a Soviet agent.
So, of course, Cornell was infiltrated by the CIA and by the Brits and everything.
It was all in the middle of this whole kind of Cold War thing going on right around me.
And we were with the guys building the atomic bomb.
So, of course, the intelligence agencies are going to be keeping close watch on everything that's going on at Cornell in that period.
Obviously.
I don't know if they do it today.
Today, they're not as smart as they used to be back then.
And then, how long did it take after?
You started going to Cornell and working with these guys that were involved in the Manhattan Project.
How long did it take for the CIA to contact you directly?
Well, overtly, no, they never did back then.
They never did back then.
I was, yeah, I was still a kid, man.
I was 18, 19, 20 years old.
And then, let's see, so then what happened?
So, okay, so I kind of had a tempestuous.
I went to Brandeis.
What's Brandeis?
Brandeis at that time.
This is after graduating Cornell, graduate school.
I could have gone to Stanford.
Leonard Schiff, the head of the physics department at Stanford, actually called me up in Ithaca through Hans Bethe and invited me to go to Stanford.
But I was married at the time.
I was married to the president of the Gilbert and Sullivan Society.
And we didn't feel like we wanted to go that far.
And I got what's called the Title IV National Defense Fellowship to go to Brandeis.
Brandeis was a brand new campus created by the rich Jewish money.
but closely connected with Harvard and Boston University and MIT, you know, Waltham, Massachusetts.
It was a brand new campus and I got a big fellow, you know, a lot of money to actually go there.
And also my wife was given a fellowship to go there.
So we went to Brandeis.
But it was really part of the, you know, we'd go to classes, I'd go to lectures at Harvard and MIT.
It was everything was kind of like connected.
You know, it's like, I guess like Caltech and UCLA and right.
The Claremont Colleges, stuff like that.
It was all, you know, fairly close network.
And then what happened?
So then I.
Oh, yes.
All right.
Well, now we're going to get into some of the physics.
Now, this is important because last year, guys who I know, Alan Aspey and John Klauser, and also Anton Zellinger, who I don't know, a guy from Austria, got the Nobel Prize in Physics for.
Quantum entanglement.
Okay.
All right.
So now we'll go back the summer of 1958 back at Cornell.
It's the summertime.
And I don't want to go back to New York.
It's summer.
And I'm offered a job being the night operator of the Cornell electron, one billion electron volt synchrotron at the Newman Laboratory of Nuclear Studies up at Cornell to operate the thing at night.
And so I take that job.
And there's not much to do at night, you know, and it's comfortable.
It's a big council and they have actually a shower and there's like a cot.
I can rest, you know, I just have to be there, like the night watchman sort of thing, you know.
But I'm reading this book.
It gave me time.
This book called Quantum Theory by David Bohm, who had worked with Einstein at Princeton.
Bohm had been at Berkeley with Oppenheimer in the 30s, along with Philip Morrison, another of my Cornell professors, okay?
And, and, uh, Because Bo was considered to be at the time the heir to Albert Einstein.
He was considered to be very bright.
And he was at Princeton working with Einstein.
And when he was there, as he was a young assistant professor, there's a lot of political stuff, but I'll just skip over that.
Because he was involved with Oppenheim and the communists and stuff.
McCarthy wanted to investigate him.
So there was a lot of political turmoil going on there.
This is around 1950, 51.
And Bohm was teaching the course in quantum theory based on what's called the Niels Bohr-Copenhagen interpretation, which is kind of the, that was like the main, that was the thing that Oppenheimer had gone to, you know, learn with Bohr and stuff like that.
And so I was reading the book.
The book I was reading in 1958 now, the summer of 58, this book was from David Bohm's lecture notes when he taught at Princeton.
And it was the traditional, but beautifully written book.
Bohm was not a good lecturer.
He was kind of very shy, but he was a really good, clear writer.
Good writer.
So I'm reading the book, and in the book, there were two chapters that stuck out to me.
One was a chapter in which the quantum waves, I'll call these quantum waves, the quantum wave function, is likened to the mind wave.
If the mind was a field, was a physical field, it would be a quantum wave.
That's the idea.
And this is an idea which Niels Bohr first had at the beginning of the 20th century when he was creating quantum theory.
Because Niels Bohr, I think his father was a psychologist, and he was involved with all these philosophers of mental stuff and consciousness, all that stuff.
So the connection of quantum waves to the mind and conscious processes was already part of the very beginning of quantum theory.
And David Bowman, his textbook, Quantum Theory, it's a Dover, you get Dover publication, points out this whole chapter on the, he calls it the analogy between quantum phenomena and mental processes in the brain.
Can you give me, for myself and for people listening, can you give me a very sort of general.
Wave Functions in the Brain00:02:36
Idea of what quantum theory is like for the layman to understand?
Okay, basically it's this.
Okay, i'm gonna make the, i'm gonna use the ball.
David Bohm's analogy, okay, mind matter right, mind matter, distinct duality between mind and matter.
According to Bohm and Niels Bohr.
In a very rough i'm being very rough now very often the mind is this quantum wave function.
You hear now about quantum computers mm hmm okay, quantum computers yeah, they operate on atoms, right?
Yeah, or even, yes, or electrons, you know, small.
Yes, but it's like a wave thing.
It's an information field.
It's like a wave as opposed to a particle.
It's a wave that has very strange properties.
And in the book, in the Bone book, he points out certain properties of our consciousness.
Correspond to these quantum waves, these weird, spooky properties of these quantum waves.
They're like pure information.
So the point is basically, we just make the intuitive guess.
The mind is a physical field, like the electromagnetic field.
Our minds and our brains, it's a physical field, but it's a quantum wave.
Okay.
It's a quantum wave, which is kind of pure.
Let's put it this way the universe itself. is split into matter and mind, where the mind, all the quantum properties of the universe are the intrinsically mental properties of reality.
Right now, Jack Sarifati is a quantum wave, and Danny is a quantum wave, Stephen's a quantum wave.
We are quantum waves, but they're what are called giant quantum waves.
I'm like this, but this giant waveform, that's my mind.
That's meant to my mind, which is interacting with the electrons and the molecules and the atoms of the brain.
This is a two way street.
Okay.
So my, actually, technically it's called a further condensate, but that's another thing.
Room Temperature Superconductors00:15:36
We know exactly.
Okay.
Let me just jump ahead.
This is very nonlinear, but.
You know, we'll go as it comes.
1975, late 75, up on the top of Knob Hill here, where we had this facility that Lawrence Rockefeller was funding us, okay, you know, from the Rockefeller brothers, with this guy named George Koopman, young guy, older than me, well, no, about my age, I guess, maybe a little younger.
Any case, he's like an army spook.
CIA spoke.
He comes from a wealthy family in Connecticut.
He's connected with the New York Times, the Salzburgers.
He's like a cousin of the Salzburgers.
And he's also running, he ran a defense contractor called Inns Group down in Irvine, California.
Is it Inns Group?
Yeah, Inns Group.
And they had Army contracts, Army Tank Command, U.S. Air Force.
And he's funding us.
He's one of our funders.
This is how the hippies say physics.
Dave.
David Kite, hippie state physics.
Right, right.
Okay.
David Kite, MIT professor, wrote a book about this whole period.
And I'm up there with this guy, Saul Paul Sirag, right across from the Grace Cathedral, the Episcopal Cathedral.
And George says, Jack, the CIA was formed because of the flying saucer Roswell crash.
That's what he said.
Okay, you know, that one of the reasons the CIA was formed from the OSS was they considered a threat.
I know this is true because I know James Jesus, I know from James Jesus Angleton's grandson that James Jesus Angleton from the OSS, one of the early pioneers of the CIA, was very scared of the flying saucer phenomenon and he had all the stuff.
I could tell there's a whole story about that.
What evidence do you have is there that he was actually aware of the UFO phenomenon?
Well, from his grandson, I'm told that by his grandson.
He just told you that, or did he actually have like notes and documents that he?
Well, that's a whole other story.
It turns out all the nuts are done, but yeah, that's a whole story that when his.
Okay, when James Jesus.
There were three generations of CIA here.
Right.
There's James Jesus Angleton's grandfather, and there's a whole sort of side story, which I won't go into now.
And then his son, my friend's father, the second, Angleton II, and all three of them.
James E. got them into the CIA.
So there's three generations of CIA guys related to Angleton.
This is my understanding.
When James E. Angleton died, all the Angleton papers went to the Sun, including all the UFO file.
Okay.
And then when my friend's father died, my friend, these papers were locked in one of those storage units in Miami.
He's allowed to just have them.
Well, I don't know who knew.
Maybe he wasn't allowed, but he had them.
Trump had them too, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't know what the classification, whether he had them legally or not legally, but he had them.
Okay?
At least so it's my understanding.
I don't know firsthand.
I only know secondhand from the grandson.
All right?
The story told to me.
Okay.
Okay.
So then when my friend Jim goes to the storage unit to get the papers, because he's telling you, apparently the feds had, they said the federal agents came in and they took everything, it was empty.
Right after his father died.
His father was in the, they were all, you know, now he's retired from the, who knows if they're retired, but you know, okay?
Right.
So, and he only had a few things that, yeah.
But this is how I met the grandson because of the flying, you know, because I'm into flying.
So that's how we all connect it.
That's the common connection.
Right.
So I believe this.
And it also fits in with what Kuban said Jack, the CIA was formed because of Roswell.
And there are two things the CIA wants to know, and also the Defense Department.
One, how does consciousness work?
And this is all in that book How the Hippies Say Physics.
Yeah.
Yeah.
MIT professor, Harvard PhD.
You know, he's a big.
full professor in charge of the science technology stuff at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Go talk to him.
David Kaiser.
He was here, sitting here just like you.
How old is he now?
What?
How old is David Kaiser?
I don't know.
He's in his 40s.
He's older than you.
Maybe he's 50.
Oh, okay.
Because this was like 10 years.
Yeah, he's probably late 40s, early 50s.
He had young children.
Okay.
And you should definitely interview him.
And so they say, we want to know how does consciousness work?
And that's the whole big story.
That's what the book's about.
There's videos about that.
Oh, by the way, there's also a Nova.
I'm in Nova on how they'd be saved.
There's a Nova thing, PBS Nova, and the bass.
They show my picture twice, but they don't mention my name.
Screw that.
Well, you know, I'm kidding.
But they should.
They don't mention my name.
But I'm there.
You said my image is there, but without not being identified twice.
And so.
And so George is saying it's around Christmas time in 75, and Saul Paul Serraga was there.
I thought Fred Wolf was there, but he wasn't there, apparently.
But this guy, Saul Paul Serraga, is still alive.
You should actually interview him.
He knows a lot.
And George says, yeah, CIA was created because of the flying saucers, and there's all this weird stuff connected because they have telepathic communication, all that stuff, right?
And so CIA wants to know, how does consciousness work?
Physics, the physics of consciousness, right?
How does it work?
That's why Rockefeller is funding paying for us, and so is this guy named Werner Erhard and these guys from Stanford.
And how do the flying saucers work?
So, those are the two things.
I was basically pulled out of academia to work on this, which I've been doing for 50, 60 years.
Okay.
Wow.
This is what they want to know.
And now you see, now it all makes sense because of what's happening.
Do you understand?
Now, this is real.
There's not quite this is real.
The skeptics are, you know, we uh, you should have me on maybe sometime with skeptics and you know, let's have a debate on all this stuff.
Yeah, yeah, there's a reality war going on.
So, how old are you when they pulled you out of the university?
Well, uh, well, a little bit earlier, uh, yeah, actually before that, I was uh, like 1970, 1969, 1970, early 71.
69, 71, they pulled you out of what university?
Okay, well, wait, wait, okay, well, I have to okay, we these are a lot of flashbacks, right?
These are doing flashbacks.
Let's go back a little bit.
I was at Brandeis.
Okay.
Oh, yes.
And I had told you I was reading the book on quantum entanglement.
Okay.
Which they got the Nobel Prize for in 2022.
Nobel Prize for all this stuff I was reading back in 1958.
Okay.
But hardly anybody knew it.
People at Cornell did not know really about entanglement.
They didn't even know.
I would start talking.
Einstein, Badovsky, Rose.
Even Hans Bethe really wasn't into it.
These guys, it was considered some kind of fringe thing.
It wasn't mainstream at all.
So I was just because David Bohm was considered a little bit eccentric too.
And even Einstein, Einstein boy, even though Einstein was so great, he was a little bit, Einstein, he doesn't believe in quantum mechanics.
There was all this stuff going on.
So I was like carrying the torch already at 1950 AM, 18 years old, 19 years old, about API, quantum entanglement.
This is really important stuff, man.
What's going on?
Because it sounds weird.
It's spooky, you know?
And I could see the connections with consciousness and telepathy and all this weird stuff.
Okay, so I get to Cornell.
I'm sorry, I get to Brandeis.
From Cornell.
It's like 1961.
And I'm in the library and I'm reading a journal called The Reviews of Modern Physics.
And there's a paper called The Tau Theta Puzzle by a guy named David Inglis.
And he starts talking about EPR, just what I had read.
What does that stand for?
Einstein-Bodolsky-Rosen experiment, 1935, where they predict entanglement.
This is back in 1930.
It was the Einstein-Bodolsky-Rosen paper.
Entanglement.
Okay, they also did another paper where they did about wormholes.
See the two things you know.
I don't know if there's this guy.
If you heard about Er Equals EPR, about the big thing.
The big problem is quantum gravity.
How do you relate quantum mechanics to to gravity?
That's called the quantum gravity problem.
That's the big.
You know that's Hawking.
And Penrose just got the.
Penrose just got a Nobel Prize recently too.
You know all this stuff with.
You know black holes and the evaporation of black holes.
You know that's the frontier of physics today and I was already there with the, with the entanglement part back in 1958.
So it's now, so I read this paper in 1961 at Brandeis and about the entanglement, about how in high energy physics, these mesons, they split and they connected with each other.
And the way the paper's written, it is what a guy named Ray Chow, who's a retired physics professor, semi-retired, who I kind of work with from Berkeley, Berkeley professor, and he calls a creative tension, what I call creative tension in physics.
There are things we don't quite understand.
We don't understand how this quantum entanglement seems to allow faster than light communication.
It seems to.
It doesn't, okay?
That somehow you could be on Mars and I can be on Earth.
And if our minds are entangled, that we could instantly, you can sort of know what my mind is thinking and I can know what your mind is thinking.
It turns out in ordinary quantum mechanics, there's a fly in that ointment because there's a noise factor, so you can't really.
It can't really happen in standard quantum mechanics, but when you extend quantum mechanics, it can happen.
That's a tricky thing.
But the connection between the mind, consciousness, telepathy, Einstein called entanglement spooky telepathic action at a distance.
What Einstein discovered, well, Schrodinger actually discovered a little bit before Einstein, but Einstein in 1935 wrote this paper with his students, Podolsky and Rosen, the famous what's called EPR paper that.
Kaiser's book, that the guys got the Nobel Prize for, basically what?
The Bell's theorem, all that stuff.
Einstein didn't like it because it seemed to contradict relativity theory that nothing can go faster than light, that you see that if, if the, if the speed of light of 300,000 meters per second in vacuum, if that's the fastest you can communicate, but yet this entanglement seems to be that there's an influence you know, faster than light.
So what's going on here?
The quantum, this creative tension.
Can you explain briefly what the theory of relativity is Theory?
General GR.
Explain.
Okay, there are two theories.
People who may be listening who might not know what that is.
Okay, very.
I mean, these are not easy things to answer.
Okay, the special theory of relativity.
Okay, here's what it's about.
I'm not going to do the math.
What it's about.
You're there.
I'm here.
And there's Steve over there.
There's Steve, the technician.
Hey, Steve.
Now, who needs a camera?
Yeah.
However, we're out in space.
We're in our spacesuits.
We're all in space.
This has to be done in a vacuum.
The whole theory of relativity only really works in a vacuum.
When you're inside matter, there are problems.
There are problems.
But here's the thing.
We're floating around in our spacesuits.
We can use our rockets, but we can free float.
When we're floating out in space, we are what are called inertial observers, inertial frame.
That's very important.
We're weightless.
There's no gravity.
We're weightless, just floating around in space, right?
And Steve over there, he's doing something in the space stage.
We're looking at him.
We're watching.
Tell it, we're looking for telescopes, whatever.
We're just getting light signals from Steve, right?
Okay, and we're measuring, we're seeing what he's doing.
We're sort of measuring his finger, whatever.
We're like getting data.
I'm getting my data, you're getting your data, okay?
But then we're moving relative to each other, but we're free floating.
We're not, we don't, you know, we're for what we're both called inertial observers, but there's a relative.
Velocity between us.
Okay, we'll assume that the relative velocity between us, there's no acceleration.
So assume there's a uniform velocity difference between us.
But we're both, with our light, you know, through light signals, we're both measuring what he's doing, what Steve is doing.
And by the way, light has a finite speed, right?
So what I see him doing takes, you know, is coming from his past, right?
Because the light has to travel, of course, very fast.
Yeah, what is the speed of light again?
It's 300,000 meters per second, which is 186,000 miles per second in vacuum.
This is only in vacuum now.
I've got to remember this.
Okay.
So now, here's the thing.
The first principle of relativity, of special relativity, is suppose you and I were what I call inertial observers.
That's very important.
We're inertial observers.
We're free-floating in space, our spacesuits.
But suppose I want to somehow have a device.
I measure the speed of light.
In vacuum, and I get a number, and you also measure the speed of light in vacuum, and you get a number, but we're moving relative to each other.
So, normally, you would think of cars, you know, like the two people in cars move at different speeds of the ground, you know, and you would subtract the velocity to get the relative velocities, you know, what's called the Galilean velocity addition law.
That we shouldn't all, if we're both, say, if we're both again at a light signal, and you're moving relative to me, we should see different.
Velocities of light, which is different light speeds.
If you think of light like a car, okay?
See, if you think, okay, if there's a car and you're moving parallel to the car but at a different speed, and you measure the relative speed of the car to you, and I'm moving at a different relative speed, we're going to get different relative speeds in that car.
Relativity and Light Speed00:02:54
Right.
But guess what?
When you do light and vacuum, you get the same number.
Interesting.
Okay.
That's the special principle of relativity.
Okay.
Okay.
Now, that's what Einstein in 1905.
Made everybody understand.
Actually, other people, actually there was this guy, Lorentz, even before him, who actually had it but didn't have quite the right idea.
And it turns out that, okay, there are two things in physics at the time.
There's what's called classical mechanics, the mechanics, motion, you know, automobiles, stuff like that, rockets, steam engines, well, that's also thermodynamics.
And that's the Newtonian theory of gravity, you know, with the 17th century to 19th century physics of mechanics.
Mechanical, the Mechanical Universe Clockwork, you know clocks, Clockwork Universe, and then um, but then at Maxwell, around the time of the Civil War well, beginning of the night, beginning of the 19th century, early 1800s, you had all these uh, you know, Humphrey Davy and Michael Faraday and all these guys, Thomas Young, and they were doing electricity and magnetism and and light, you know, and all this stuff, optics.
Well, Newton already was doing optics, but so, but what happened around the time of the Civil War?
James Maxwell, who was a Scottish guy up in, He may have been in London by then, but maybe in Scotland.
And he was a mathematician.
He took all this stuff.
Before Maxwell, which was before the American Civil War, physicists, they knew there was electricity, they knew there was magnetism, and they knew there was optics.
But they were all three separate branches of physics.
They didn't know the connection.
But Maxwell got this great idea that he related the speed of light and vacuum to what's called the magnetic permeability of the vacuum and the electrical permittivity.
So Maxwell's able to this is Maxwell.
This is light.
Light speed.
This is electricity.
Electricity.
I'll call it electric.
And this is magnetic.
So, okay, I'll get back to that.
So, this is only one of the things that Maxwell did.
So, Maxwell had.
This is the first unified field theory.
First of all, okay, mechanics had to do with like particles, little hard, massy billiard balls moving around through space and time, colliding, right?
That's mechanics, basically.
You know, you're playing billiards, playing billiards at the bar.
You're doing Newtonian classical mechanics.
Maxwell's Unified Field Theory00:02:55
Right, right, okay.
Okay.
Okay, conservation momentum, angular momentum, and energy, and all that stuff.
That makes sense.
Okay, all right.
But how does quantum compete with that?
Well, this is pre-quantum.
There's no quantum yet.
There's no quantum yet.
This is all quantum mechanics 100 years later.
This is before quantum.
Nobody had an inkling about quantum mechanics at this point.
What Maxwell did was he, what are called Maxwell field equations, which unify electricity, magnetism, and light as one unified.
Phenomenon.
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And the field equations there are four field equations.
One is called Gauss's Law.
Gauss's Law relates the electric charge to the electric field.
And then there's what's called Ampere's law.
Ampere's law relates the current, the electrical current, to the generation of a magnetic field.
Okay.
And then there's what's called, there's a thing which says that there are no magnetic monopoles.
That's sort of technical.
And then there's what's called Faraday's induction law, which is how a time-changing magnetic field.
Creates an electric field.
Gravity A and Gravity B00:15:23
Okay.
And then, but then Maxwell also did something very important.
Going back to Ampere's law, which they knew about, in which a steady current, say, creates, like a solenoid, you know, the magnetic field around a coil.
He also showed that a changing electric field also generates a magnetic field.
This is called the Maxwell displacement current.
And we put all these things together, you get a wave equation.
Where things he put, which they predict electromagnetic waves, which is, you know, television, radio, you know, everything, you know, right?
This is Marconi and then later, you know, Edison.
Well, okay.
So he predicted electromagnetic waves, Hertz, and that's the beginning of the modern, you know, technological revolution.
But the whole point in 1905, you see, the Maxwell's, there was like a contradiction between classical mechanics.
And Maxwell's electromagnetic field theory, which is sort of analogous to today, where there's like a creative tension between gravity theory and quantum mechanics.
So, there was, you know, this was a problem.
Got it.
So, what Einstein did in 1905, he reconciled, he showed that if you now just realize that in vacuum, the speed of light is invariant, what's called invariant, it's the same number, 300,000 meters per second, for you, for Danny, as it is for Jackie.
We're out in space, but we're freely weightless.
This only works if you're weightless.
Okay.
Okay.
You got to be what I call inertial frames.
Okay.
It works approximately on the Earth because we're, you know, even though we're not really inertial frames, the correction is very small and the speed of light is so big.
So, you know, people kind of like a sloppy, they don't, they forget about this.
Okay.
And then, but they make mistakes, which have to do with flying saucers, you see.
Okay.
But that's, I'm getting ahead of myself a little.
So, no.
Okay.
So, that's a special theory of relativity.
Got it.
Speed of light is the same for all different people as long as they're moving uniformly relative to each other.
They'll all measure the same speed of light, but as a result of that, certain things happen.
It turns out there's something called time dilation.
Okay, that if things are so, so for example, uh, we have what are called cosmic rays, and cosmic rays have what are called mu mesons, certain particles that, if you take a mu meson sitting in the laboratory, it takes a certain what's called it's like radioactivity, a certain half life, a certain amount of time for half of the mu mesons to decay into electrons and I guess neutrinos or something.
But these cosmic rays coming in very fast, okay.
Cosmic rays are coming very fast, and you look at their decay rate, their decay rate is much longer.
They live longer.
Interesting.
It's called time dilation.
Okay?
And this is a result of the fact that the speed of light is the same for all inertial observers.
So there's that, and it also led to E mc squared.
And also, you know, Einstein, that's where he gets the energy is equivalent to mass.
And that's the atomic bomb, right?
Nuclear radioactivity, nuclear physics, and so on.
So just that one.
Realization that the speed of light is the same for all inertial observers.
But now we have to get to general relativity.
Okay, general relativity.
Oh, and also just before I go into it, so to summarize, special relativity unifies classical mechanics of Newton, well, generalizes it so that it's consistent with Maxwell's electrodynamics.
Everything is now a consistent picture that the mechanics, he modified, but it's now what's called.
Relative special, relativistic mechanics fits in very nicely with Maxwell's electromagnetic field, because Maxwell's electromagnetic field equations, turns out, are already demand that the speed of light be the same for you and me if we're moving, uniform relative to each other.
So so Maxwell's theory and it was, but people didn't realize that.
It was Einstein and I guess to some extent maybe Uh Lorenz a little bit, before he realized that in order for that, in order for Uh Maxwell's theory to make sense, the speed of light cannot be different for two different inertial observers moving relative to each other.
All right, but what happens if we're accelerating?
What happens if you switch on your rocket engine, you're out in space, and now you're accelerating?
Now you'll get a different speed of light from what I get.
See, this is the beginning of general relativity.
General relativity has to do with several things.
Well, you can do accelerating frames, what are called non inertial frames.
That's where you're out in space and you fire your.
Your rocket and your cell, and you feel G force, feeling G force.
Okay.
See, we're getting there to the UFOs.
Remember the UFOs?
They're seeing these UFOs.
They go off 5,000 Gs.
You know, you can't.
A human cannot do more than like eight or nine Gs for a limited period of time.
These are hundreds of Gs, 5,000 Gs.
Right.
Okay.
And that's, they still, these guys, they still, I mean, even, did you watch the thing, the Senate?
The Congressional Intelligence Committee subcommittee.
Yes, okay.
Then you see when Commander Frave, the Navy pilots, they know that we don't understand the physics.
Yep.
I even talked to Ryan Graves on my podcast, and he was all right.
Well, you should have so you should try to get now in the future, you should get Ryan to come talk to me together and get and then I'll explain it to him.
What he's you know, Ryan was only seeing it on his radar, he never actually saw it.
No, no, but I'm not, it doesn't matter.
I'm trying to, so it's that he's confused, he doesn't know how it could work.
I can explain to him how it works.
Simple.
Elementary.
It's elementary physics of general relativity, of Einstein.
That's all.
They don't understand enough physics.
So, to them, you know, they don't understand it.
And the point is, nobody understands it in the military.
They don't understand it.
Elizondo doesn't understand it.
Chris, none of these guys understand it, but they could understand it.
They'd listen to me and a few others.
You know, it's very easy to understand.
We understand it perfectly.
It's elementary, my dear Watson.
We understand it theoretically, but we don't necessarily know.
We don't know if anybody has been able to actually back engineer that.
Well, that's a different story.
The back engineering, that's a whole different story.
Right.
We don't know if we can actually create that.
We know how, theoretically, we know how anti gravity works, right?
Like Bob Lazar explained this.
No, no, okay.
Now, Bob Lazar doesn't explain it.
That's a whole other thing.
Bob Lazar is not a physicist.
Bob Lazar is what's called a useful idiot of the military industrial complex who's been given a certain amount of information.
Actually, that comes from stuff I was working on in the 70s with Abdus Salam at the, you know, Some of what he talks about, gravity A and gravity B, that's what was called the salam theory, the F gravity, strong short range gravity, part of the nuclear physics.
Yeah, that part has some truth in it, although he doesn't explain it properly because he's not a physicist, okay?
Let me see if I can regurgitate my layman view of how he explained it.
He explained that there was a reactor inside of this sport model UFO saucer that when the saucer went from horizontal to vertical, it flew belly first.
And what it did was it sort of displaced.
Matter in front of it so that when the thing moves from left to right, it sort of falls.
Okay, it doesn't.
Okay, number one, I don't think that's probably your error.
I don't think he said matter.
He said it displaces the vacuum, displaces the space itself.
Yes, that's what I meant.
Okay, yeah, not matter.
That's different.
But yeah, and that's warp drive.
That's what I'm talking about.
It's warp drive.
So he has, he had part of what he says is true, but it's sloppy.
It's not done properly.
But when he gets to the nuclear, the 115, you don't need any of that.
The element 115.
Yeah, it's stupid.
And he never explains.
Suppose I have a stable isotope of element 115.
What's the equations that show me how that affects the ground?
How does that warp space?
Show me how to do that.
He doesn't know how to do that because it can't be done.
See, it's bullshit.
That's what's called pseudophysics.
That's a story for idiots, but that's a story he's been given.
He's been, he's like Benowitz, you know, the Benowitz story.
He's been, you know, Okay, I can see.
I was Lazar.
He's like an all American kid, and he was he's intelligent, he's a good salesman, he's articulate.
Okay, he presents himself well, especially back in the 80s.
And actually, he was into warp drive before I was, so somebody had told him.
I mean, it's only later that we really realized it was warp drive, only actually last 20 years, maybe.
So, somebody, but that's maybe because see, this is time travel, so I think what's happening is that, and this is I'm speculating now.
Is that the stuff that we're going to build, Sarfati Space Corporation, is going to make that some of that stuff was sent back in time to the 80s to Area 51, where Lazar comes into the picture.
And maybe one of the guys are in the story, maybe the time travelers who go back to Area 51.
This is speculative.
I'm not saying this really happened, but it would make sense.
This is a possible explanation.
And so the guy from the future came back and told Lazar, or told some of the guys there, the scientists there, who then told Lazar, but they watered it down.
They gave what's called disinformation.
What did you call it?
Limited hangout.
Limited hangout.
They gave that, yeah.
So what it is.
Something, a little bit, a sliver of something that's true.
Yeah.
But not the whole pie.
Yeah, but yeah, right.
And also, that may have been done deliberately so that straight physicists like me would right away dismiss it.
Oh, this is crazy, which is part of the stigma, the whole stigma.
Because they don't want the Russians to know, they want the Chinese, you know, whatever, national security, all that kind of crazy stuff, okay?
So that could be.
So I was actually surprised when I actually first listened to Lazar talk about gravity and gravity B, because that's kind of what I'm working on, but he didn't explain it the other way I would explain it.
So he had a piece of it without really understanding it.
And again, as I said yesterday, there are different levels of physics there's community college, right?
Associate degree, there is four year college, undergraduate, bachelor degree.
There's the master's level and then the PhD level.
Lazar is a smart associate degree level type electrical technician, physics technician.
That's what his job was, what he was.
And he lied.
The problem is, he also lied about his academic background.
He said he went to MIT and Caltech.
He didn't.
Right.
There's no evidence of it.
But there's an argument to the MIT thing.
There's an argument that if someone like Los Alamos wanted him to.
Acquire some sort of specific knowledge, they could have sent him to MIT covertly to sort of learn something as part of some dark problem.
That's possible.
That's possible.
But it's clear to me that Lazar doesn't know any math.
He doesn't know physics.
He's not a theoretical expert.
See, if he would have written down equations, and I could tell right away, but he's just given a script.
He's reading off a script.
He didn't create this, it's not his creation.
And he's reading off a script that somebody gave him.
Now, the people who gave him that script, they may know what I'm talking about.
But it wasn't Lazar.
We don't know who Lazar spoke to back in Area 51.
Okay.
I want to get back to the point when the CIA actually reached out to you and wanted you to work on some of this consciousness stuff.
Yeah, well, that's what I was telling you.
That's George Koopman.
Well, that's also, okay, wait, I got to go back a little bit.
How did that, can you, like, walk me through how that works?
Okay, all right.
How do they, do they, do they show up at your doorstep?
Do they send you to the airport?
Well, sometimes they have many different levels.
So, first of all, okay, first of all, you're just a, you're, you're how old at this point?
And then I'm about 35.
You're about 35.
No, no, but it happened way before then.
That's already.
I want to know what it's like to be a guy like you in your 30s to be contacted by the CIA and pulled out of academia and start working on stuff like conscious, like what is consciousness, telepathic communication.
Let's go back.
We have to backtrack a little now.
Where do I start?
Where do I start?
Okay.
First of all, I'm back.
I have to start now.
Where I guess I'm at UCSD La Jolla.
This is like the mid 60s.
The mid 60s, okay?
And I'm a graduate student at the physics department in La Jolla.
And I'm part of what's called Keith Bruckner's group.
Keith Bruckner, you have to check him out.
He's dead now, but he was, there's a thing called the Jasons.
Yes, I've heard of that.
The Jasons.
Yeah, I read, I actually just finished reading Annie Jacobson's book.
Called The Pentagon's Brain, all about the creation of DARPA.
So, the guy I was working for at UCSD was the head of the Jasons.
Oh, wow.
And, you know, at least part of, you know, they would have meetings of the Jasons, and I would go to some of them at UCSD in La Jolla.
They created like the first computer, right?
And the internet.
No, no, I think that was before.
No, the first computer is back in the 50s already.
That's what I, my phone calls are the first computer back then.
That's a Princeton.
That's the Aniac and Maniac.
Yes, exactly.
Yes, Maniac.
No, I don't think there were no Jasons.
That's before.
That's right after, close after Roswell, you know.
All right.
So the Jasons are around the time of Vietnam, I think.
Yes, yes.
And this is, yeah, 60s.
I'm there in 65.
Right.
66, 67.
And I would go to the, you know, I would sit in on some of the Jason meetings on various things.
And Keith Brooklyn was like chairing it.
And also, La Jolla was a beautiful place.
Everybody wanted to come to La Jolla.
You know, Edward Teller was there a lot.
John Wheeler, John Archibald Wheeler, Fred Hoyle from England, a lot of people from England, Herbert Freulich, Bert Matthias.
It was, you know, a beautiful place, La Jolla, the beach, and what's called the, The Oceanographic, Scripps Oceanographic was part of the campus.
The place is amazing.
In fact, okay, there's a very good book you should read actually by the Benford twins, Gregory Benford, won an award called Timescape, science fiction novel.
Fred Hoyle's Timescape Theory00:02:44
I'm actually in the book.
There's a composite of me.
I was part of the Benford twins.
We were all graduate students together.
And he writes this story.
It's all about what's really happening.
He writes a story about the future creating the past, communicating with the past.
It's in Timescape.
Because that's part of Fred Hoyle.
See, Fred Hoyle.
Okay, Fred Hoyle.
Fred Hoyle used to come there a lot.
This is Fred.
What I'm working on is Fred Hoyle's theory.
Fred Hoyle wrote a book, The Intelligent Universe.
Fred Hoyle.
Okay, Fred Hoyle.
Let's see now.
How is, let's see, Dennis Yama.
Fred Hoyle was the Isaac Newton Professor of Astronomy at Cambridge University.
I think when Fred Hoyle retired, Stephen Hawking.
Took Fred Hoyle's job.
But Fred Hoyle used to come all the time to UCSC La Jolla from Cambridge.
Okay.
If you read Fred Hoyle's book, he has everything Jack Sarfati talks about already in Fred Hoyle's book, The Intelligent Conscious Universe, in which the future is influencing the past.
Okay?
And this is now part of quantum theory, what's called the Yakya Aharanov.
There's a whole thing, what's called weak measurement theory.
Today, all of quantum entanglement, all the spooky telepathic action at a distance, can be neatly explained, consistent with Einstein's theory of relativity, that there's no signal faster than the speed of light, but things can go backward in time.
Everything is now explained.
We have a unified conceptual picture connecting relativity, resolving the creative tension between relativity and quantum entanglement, or non-locality, spooky action at a distance.
We understand it all.
It's too much to really explain.
But just you have to take my word for it.
You know, if you want to do other things later, we can.
So we understand that.
And that was partly from Fred Hoyle, from Fred Hoyle coming to La Jolla, influencing me and the Benford twins wrote a science fiction novel based on Fred Hoyle's theory.
So everything I'm telling you now, you want to get into it?
It's Timescape by Gregory and Jim Benford.
It's set in La Jolla.
In the 70s, and it's very much like what I'm it's it's art, uh, imitating reality.
Everything that's happening now is kind of like what's in the Timescape book.
So, read Timescape.
You know, that sets the stage.
That's what I'm talking about.
But it's a fictional story that's more like, it's more reality than reality.
Atomic Energy and Distortion00:06:59
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
So, where are we at?
So, I was trying to get to the point where the CIA actually contacted you and watched you.
Okay.
So, wait.
Okay.
So, first, okay.
I want you to walk me through that.
I know we've gotten kind of like gearing off top.
So, it's the mid 60s.
So, I'm involved with Keith Booker, and it's full of CIA military.
It's the Jasons, right?
The Jasons, yeah.
Yeah.
So, they're all hanging out there, too.
Harold Urey, I mean, did Brooklyn, I guess Brooklyn was probably part of the Manhattan Project too, now come to think of it.
He did something, yeah, I guess nuclear physicist, nuclear matter.
So, okay, so, and then I was also hanging out, going up to Caltech with Richard, meeting Richard Feynman, who I met, I first met Feynman in 1963.
And I, so, it's the summer of 66, okay, so I'm, I go to NATO, a NATO summer school in nonlinear physics at Werner Heisenberg's Max Planck Institute in Munich.
And I was also invited to Her Majesty's Atomic Energy Research Establishment at Harwell, right near Oxford, out of Oxford.
That's like their Lawrence Livermore back.
That's the nuclear weapons, nuclear reactors.
I was invited there too.
So at the beginning of the summer, I'm in Munich with Heisenberg.
You know, Heisenberg.
Yeah.
Okay.
Every day, having tea with cookies and ice.
Then we even went to the beer halls and had some beer afterward.
Every day, five days a week, I'm in Schwabing, which is kind of like North Beach, Schwabing in Munich.
Uh, you know it's a Bohemian like, sort of like North Beach uh, but in this big park I would get up in the morning, walk up, take the trolley car.
There's a trolley goes to the end of the line.
That's the MAX PUNK Institute and John Wheeler Archibald Wheeler, you know, worked with TELL when they created the fusion, the hydrogen bomb, you know all that stuff.
All these yeah, and we was, I was there for you know this guy who was there, Kruskal Rosta, in any case, a lot of these famous guys.
You know all what all related to the nuclear weapons and stuff like that.
They're there.
Okay, it's a NATO.
NATO was paying for it, Right?
North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
And then after that, I actually left a week or two earlier because I had to get to Harwell.
They didn't like that.
Then I was also married, I met my wife.
I spent several weeks in Harwell at Ridgeway House.
We're billeted.
Ridgeway House was a former RAF officers' quarter.
And there were a bunch of the airfields.
The U.S. Air Force still had.
It actually still does.
There's a bunch of US Air Force, British Air Force facilities around there.
That's where the Spitfires and the Battle of Britain, some of them were there.
And some of these guys from the RAF, they were still there at Harvard.
They were working for the atomic energy thing.
There were still these guys, including military intelligence officers.
I was living with them.
It's like an officer's mess.
It's like a hotel on the campus of the Atomic Energy Research.
And while there, I.
Yeah, also, it was a very nice place.
I was in the theoretical physics division at Harwell, and it was like being at a university, you know.
And I would go to Oxford, I would go down to the University of London, and when going down to Imperial College, University of London, with Abdus Salam and Goldstone.
Anyway, so it was all these guys, and this is Higgs, you know, the Higgs mechanism, and they were all like developing this stuff.
And I would go back to Harwell and talk about what they were doing at Imperial College, and there was this young guy about my age, maybe a little older, named Marshall Stoneham.
He's a solid state guy.
So, as a result of my going down to Imperial, Marshall and I wrote this paper called The Goldstone Theorem and the Jan Teller Effect, which was published, this is 1966, was published in the Proceedings of the Physical Society of London.
And what it does, it shows how the stuff that they were doing at Imperial, which is sort of related to the Higgs mechanism, high energy physics, How it relates to condensed matter physics.
In this case, it's how a distortion of a lattice, just a crystal lattice, the distortion kind of creates, in a way, a kind of room temperature superconductor.
I mean, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but there are connections to all this current interest of room temperature superconductors, L99, even though it doesn't work.
But they're claiming because of the distortion.
Anyway, it sounds to me like maybe they're talking about the Anteller effect.
So, even though that particular thing they're doing didn't work because they're not accurate enough, that.
We may be able to get it to work because I'm now seeing a connection.
I could be wrong.
This is just, you know, I'm just, this is still half baked.
I think the stuff I did at Harwell in 1966 with Marshall Stonem that that may be applicable to getting room temperature superconductivity along the lines of LK99.
I could be wrong, but this is, you know, it's just an idea that we have to think about.
This is all too new.
But so, I think, but in any case, this paper that I wrote.
with Marshall.
Marshall actually wrote most of it.
In the 1980 American Journal of Physics, Papers on Symmetry and Physics is a recommended paper.
One of the recommended, as a big and important paper.
And at that point, so already there's, okay, so I go back to La Jolla, all right, and so what happens then?
I don't know.
Should we take it?
So, the back of this book, The Great Race, Physics, Paranormal, Time Traveling UFOs, it says the thrilling true story that was left out of David Kaiser's book, How the Hippies Saved Physics, how Jack Sarfati, asked by the CIA with the Russians watching, solved the hard problem of consciousness, remote viewing, psychokinesis,
The Great Race True Story00:14:28
and how the time traveling warp drive UFOs that the U.S. Navy. Is defenseless against really work.
Yes.
So I guess what I'm getting at is how did the CIA ask you to do this?
Well, this happened over a long period.
It wasn't just one thing.
So it wasn't one thing that happened?
No, it was a bunch of things.
So you were basically just surrounded by military intelligence people.
Yes.
And so the CIA never actually said, hey, can you do this for us?
No, but they did.
I was just telling you, this guy, George Koopman, CIA, he was, you know, he's, well, he's army.
When I say CIA, I also mean the whole industrial community.
Okay, I see.
I understand.
Yeah, yeah.
And, but there's more.
I was actually, you know, later on, I mean, Many, many, many encounters.
There's this guy, Harold Chipman.
This is now the mid 1980s.
Harold Chipman, who was at the time chief of station of the CIA headquarters here in San Francisco, they have an office.
Let's say where it is.
But he had previously been head of Berlin Station CIA during the 60s, the 70s.
You can look him up.
People write about him, Harold Chipman.
He was funding me, you know.
And he.
And he was involved in MKUltra back already back in San Francisco whenever they did in the late 50s.
Yeah, I saw, I was looking up yesterday, we were walking down the street, I saw the Haight Ashbury Clinic wasn't that far away from here.
Well, yeah, nothing's far.
I mean, you know, Haight Ashbury Clinic's like five minutes down the road from here, right?
No, no, that's not the Haight Ashbury.
No, Haight Ashbury is far, it's not five minutes.
Oh, really?
I thought it was closer.
No, It's not, no.
It's about 15, 20, 30 minutes.
It depends on traffic.
It's over at Haight Ashbury, it's a different part of town.
Okay.
It's not that far, it's maybe 10 miles.
Yeah, it's pretty close.
No, I mean, this is a small town.
Tell me again who specifically pulled you out of the university?
Well, wait, that's what we have to get to.
Okay, we'll get to that.
Just real quick.
Well, no, because that's the put off.
That's how I'll put off.
That's how I'll put off.
Okay.
That's that into it.
Okay, so I'm teaching at San Diego State, young assistant professor.
I'm there with this guy, Fred Wolf.
I was singing in the San Diego Civic Opera and also the local San Diego State Gilbert and Sullivan Society again, doing a bunch of shows and also trying to be an assistant professor.
And my wife at the time, Roberta, she was a professor of English at San Diego State.
Any case, I had a pretty full schedule and she didn't like Paramount.
She thought I was having an affair.
I wasn't.
So my wife got pissed, got a little paranoid.
And so I wound up getting a divorce like in 70, 69. around 1970, I guess it was.
And this guy, this other crazy physics guy who's a bit older than me, he's an associate professor, I'm an assistant professor, he winds up getting a divorce at the same time.
So we move in together, you know, on the edge of campus, like the odd couple.
I saw that movie with Jack Lemon and Walter Matthau.
I'm kind of like the slob Walter Matthau.
And Fred Wolf is kind of like Jack Lemon.
And you were at the edge of the campus.
And it's like the christmas time of 73, is it?
Oh no, it's Christmas time of 72.
Yeah, Christmas time of 72.
And Fred gets a phone call from his friend Bob Tobin from Chicago, where Fred went to high school.
And Bob and Fred were on the football team together.
And Bob has made a lot of money in the meat, the commodities market in Chicago.
And he's kind of a zany artist guy.
So Bob says he wants to come to San Diego.
So, you know, yeah, come on.
You know, like you, I mean, everything's pretty loose.
So Bob shows up.
And then a strange thing happens.
And he says, he said the reason he came is that he got a book contract and a television contract.
About this guy, here's the Mossad, about the Israeli psychic Uri Geller.
Does the name Uri Geller ring a bell?
No.
Oh, you don't even know Uri Geller?
Nope, no clue.
God.
Israeli psychic?
Yes.
Turns out he's a Mossad agent.
Okay.
This is the Mossad that you're so interested in.
Okay.
We didn't know at the time.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, God.
You don't know about Uri Geller.
So Uri Geller today is back in Israel.
He's a close confidant of Bibi Netanyahu.
Okay.
They were in the 67 war together in that elite paratroop unit.
Right.
Which there were two Netanyahus.
One brother got killed later in Tebbi and all that stuff.
This is all part of that.
Okay.
But we didn't know at the time.
This is now 1972.
And we didn't know what he was talking about.
We didn't know who he was talking about.
Paranormal.
So, okay, so he says he's coming to, he's coming to, he's got a lot of money.
He says, you don't have to take time off.
You don't have to teach.
So, this is the CIA operation, right?
And he says, you don't have to teach.
I got plenty of money.
And I'll cut through a bunch of details.
Who said this?
Bob Tobin.
Bob Tobin.
Bob Tobin comes from Chicago.
Got it.
And he wanted Fred, he didn't even know about me at that point, he wanted Fred to explain using quantum mechanics how consciousness works and how the paranormal, how Uri Gell is able to bend metal with his mind, psychokinesis.
Okay, bend spoons and stuff like that.
He actually bent spoons with his mind?
Well, that was the claim.
A lot of guys like Amazing Randy said it was a magic trick, but it's not so simple as that.
Magicians can do what Uri.
Magicians can do some of what Uri Gellert does.
They can't do everything Uri Gellert does.
And Uri Gellert is a magician, and at times he did cheat and do the tricks that the magicians would say caught him on.
But he didn't always do it that way because you can't always control his power, all right?
So, in any case, we didn't know anything.
We were pretty naive.
So, Fred, and then.
And Bob is a nice, zany guy.
And so Bob says, yeah, he includes me in it too.
So, okay.
So Bob leaves.
And then a couple of weeks later, Fred Wolf gets a call from Paris from a friend of his who's in the French physics department who Fred had worked with on a time.
Remember, Fred was doing nuclear explosion physics, Lawrence Livermore, stuff like that.
And this French friend says, listen, this guy's leaving for a couple of months.
Why don't you come to Paris, teach a course just one day a week?
You can teach him English if you want.
And Fred said, okay, sounds good.
Especially since we have also this extra money from Bob Tobin.
He says, whenever you need money, don't worry about money.
I want you to work on this other thing.
And then Fred also then gets a call from John Hasted, who's head of physics department at the University of London in what's called Birkbeck College.
Similar office says, look, we want you to come and you could also teach.
You could go back and forth between Paris and London and teach these courses.
And then I get a call from London from Abdus Salam, who's the head of Imperial College.
I remember I mentioned him when I was at Harwell.
And he says he's running an institute in Trieste, Italy called the International Center for Theoretical Physics in Trieste, which is where the Russian physicists the African, Indian, Chinese, American, all over South America, international, UNESCO, United Nations.
And this is where I'm working on what Lazar calls Gravity A, Gravity B.
He calls it that.
That's how we call it, okay?
But that's the thing.
I had been working on that already.
And Abdesalam, who later got a Nobel Prize, by the way, he was also working on it.
And so he said, come to Trieste.
I'll give you a job.
All right, so suddenly, a few weeks after Bob leaves, saying, listen, you don't have to stay here.
I got plenty of money.
I want you guys to work on this Uri Geller thing.
How does physics explain consciousness?
Yeah, there's no mention of flying saucers, just consciousness.
You know paranormal bending how could the mind bend metal?
You know things like that.
Telepathy, right.
And so here we are, so we're getting ready, so okay, so I, i'm living.
I have a girlfriend.
At the time, you know, I had met her, but she had previously worked in the office of naval intelligence at the American embassy in London, Which is kind of interesting.
So she's with me.
And she, it's now 1973.
It's 20 years after my phone calls.
Okay.
And I hadn't been thinking about the phone calls, they were not in my mind.
And so I'm scheduled to fly to London and then on to Trieste.
And it's now the weekend before my flight is leaving San Francisco on a Wednesday.
It's now the Sunday morning.
Before I'm flying out, and I'm with my girlfriend, I was staying at her mother's house in Carmel Valley.
And I'm in bed.
It's Sunday morning.
So this is now time travel.
Now it's Sunday morning.
Sharon's mother brings in the San Francisco Chronicle Sunday paper.
Okay, I'm in bed looking at the paper.
I open up the San Francisco Chronicle magazine section, and there's a big multicolor major spread.
On Stanford Research Institute testing Uri Geller for his paranormal powers.
Maybe that seems over there, right?
Okay.
I said, hey, this is just what Bob Tobin wants to give us money to work on.
Right?
Right?
Was that me or you?
That was you.
Oh, yeah.
How's that happening?
So, or that's somebody listening to.
That's Uri Geller.
Oh, no, it's Massad.
Yes, Massad.
They're listening.
All right, so.
So I say, Hi, this is weird.
So Monday morning comes, and I say, I got to call these guys.
Get on the phone, call the Stanford Research Institute.
And this guy, this Irish guy, a thick Irish accent, Brendan O'Regan, gets on the phone.
He says, Ah, Dr. Safati, we were hoping you would call.
Do you realize how weird that is?
Who could arrange that I'm going to pick up the damn newspaper, look at the article, and then decide to call?
This is Twilight Zone now, right?
I said, we were hoping you would call before you left for England.
So they already knew I was going to England.
Okay?
Whoa.
Okay?
So, okay, so they said, could you just drive up?
They knew where I was.
Not far from the car.
It was an hour and a half.
Again, can you come up to Stanford?
I'd like to talk to you.
Get in the car.
And I get there and first thing, I meet Brendan and he takes me across from SRI to what's called the Weddix Institute.
And I, who do I meet?
I meet, excuse me, meet Edgar Mitchell.
You know he was.
Oh yeah, of course he's the head of the project, the guy who walked on the moon, astronaut Edgar Mitchell.
I meet Brendan Reagan.
He takes me to meet Edgar Mitchell Okay.
Then this is where Jacques Valet comes in.
Jacques Valet's involved in the CC's.
I didn't know, I had no idea who Jacques Valet was.
Then I'm told, oh, Jacques Valet has arranged a meeting at this guy, Dean Brown.
Dean Brown's house, you know, in Menlo Park somewhere.
Dean Brown's one of the original Silicon Valley venture capital guys, rich guy.
You know, this is all intelligence, right?
You look back now, it's all.
There's a book.
You see that book, Third Eye Spies?
It's all about that.
It's at the CIA.
That's Russell Togg.
Have you talked to Russell?
You should talk to Russell Togg.
He's still alive, and he's 90, so you better talk to him fast.
Call him.
Russell Togg?
Targ.
Do you ever see the film Ghostbusters?
Of course.
Well, that Ghostbusters, that's Russell Togg.
He's the gawky guy.
Oh, wow.
He's a Russell Togg.
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
Of course.
Guy.
I don't know anything.
Right, okay.
That's why I do this.
So, in any case, Russell's still alive.
He's 90 years old, so I'll give you his contact.
You call him.
Okay.
Because he was there.
And so they're supposed to.
Jacques Mallet has arranged a meeting for Jack, for me, and Hal Put off, and a bunch of guys, some psychologists.
Some of them were CIA, I guess.
I didn't know who they were.
And so we go there.
But Jacques never showed up for some reason.
Russell Targ and Ghostbusters00:05:19
So I don't know, which is interesting.
If you ever.
Hey, Jacques, you arranged this meeting for Jack Safari and Brendan O'Regan at SRI in 1973.
How come you never came?
Well, when I leave here, I'm going straight to his apartment.
So I'll ask him when I get there.
Are you really?
No, all right.
Well, you should actually.
All right, so now we're gonna record in the library.
Now, the important point is this is a CIA operation now public because everybody had the books written about it.
Okay, it's in How the Hippies Say Physics.
All right, but the point is uh, part of that meeting you can listen to it because they the CIA they tape recorded the entire meeting.
Okay, and somebody said, Guy Saul Paul had.
I have like an hour of it, hour and a half, not the whole thing.
But you can hear me.
It's online.
It's on SoundCloud.
You can actually hear me.
1973.
Really?
Oh, yes.
How do you search for this and find this?
It's my, just Jack Sarfati SoundCloud, CIA.
Jack Sarfati CIA meeting, SoundCloud.
Yeah, whatever.
I'll give it to remind me.
I'll send it.
Okay.
Yeah, you can find it easily.
It's on Google.
Okay.
And in there, you can hear Russell Togg, the subject, this rabbi, this rabbi.
This is all Mossad, too.
It's all a combination.
This rabbi, I forget his name, this crazy rabbi, I forget his name, he's still alive.
Hertek, Jim Hertek.
He's a UFO rabbi, flying stars, a UFO rabbi.
Kabbalah, yeah, you know, that's amazing.
That's amazing.
Yeah, okay.
I think he's still alive.
And Russell knew him.
So Russell starts talking about Jim Hertek and the UFOs as time machines coming back from the future.
So Russell Talk talks about it.
Yeah, you'll hear it.
And then it's, ah, I remember that.
Hey, listen, what happened to me?
And I tell the story that I told you.
I tell the story.
And Brendan Reagan says, Oh, yeah, we have data of several hundred cases of kids.
We have data of that.
We know about this.
What?
Okay, so there you go.
So, what's going on here, man?
You can hear it yourself.
You don't take my word for it.
And you can talk to Hal Portoff.
Now, you should definitely get Hal Portoff and Russell Target before they die.
They're almost 90.
Hal Portoff is not going to last that much longer.
He's five years old.
He's going to be 89, 87.
What is his story?
Because he's interesting to me because he was a Scientologist at one point.
No, that's bullshit.
No, he admitted he was.
No, no, no, no.
But that's exactly.
You don't understand the context of that.
Well, here's the interesting thing about the Scientology stuff is because we talked about this last night.
Jack Parsons.
Yeah, and I'm, yeah, there's all these.
He was like the father of rocketry or whatever, whatever his name is.
L. Ron Hubbard.
I know all about that.
He was friends with L. Ron Hubbard and Aleister Crowley.
Yes, I know all about that because I'm one step removed from that.
I'm connected with that.
It's all connected.
There's no accidents here, okay?
But wait, let's first, Hal Porto, let me explain Hal Porto.
First of all, Hal Portoff.
And he never told me the details.
Indicated that what happened to me with the phone call happened to him.
He may not have gotten a phone call, but he didn't want, you know, he's a, maybe he's that.
Hal Putoff, I was told by Christopher Green that Hal Putoff at times has held the highest possible security clearances.
He was an officer in the Naval Intelligence before.
He got his PhD, you know, electrical engineering from Stanford.
And he, And it was, you have to talk to Russell Targ and Halpov.
They have to tell you the history of how the CIA got involved with them, okay?
Okay.
But Porof himself was already in that.
Porof told me that he explored, as part of the project to explore psychic power with the CIA, he went to Scientology meetings.
Doesn't mean he was a Scientologist.
He may have joined officially just because he wanted to see what they had.
It was L. Ron Hubbard.
We know all about Jack Parsons.
If you read about Jack, if you read, what is it, Silent Angel?
Strange Angel?
You've seen the book, the Jack Parsons book?
No.
There's a book, a biography.
Strange Angel?
Strange Angel.
It's all about all this stuff.
Jack Parsons worked with Frank Molina back in the 1930s, you know, on all this rocket stuff.
Jado.
They started, what is it, Aerojet General?
The Jado?
The Aerojet, yeah.
The Aerojet.
Yeah, there's actually a big Aerojet base that's abandoned now in South Florida.
Yeah, yeah, this is all Frank Molina and Jack Parsons.
And Jack Parsons was supporting, was financing Aleister Crowley.
And L. Ron Hubbard was, I think they knew L. Ron Hubbard.
I knew people, some of the people who supported me worked with L. Ron Hubbard and Pajarit.
Plus, it's a science fiction, Walter Breen.
All these guys knew each other.
It's a small world.
Why are all these guys so?
Why are they so?
They're all intelligence.
They're all part of the OSS, that sort of stuff.
But why are they so into the occult?
Well, and all this angels and demons type stuff.
Well, Jacques, why they are?
Frank Molina and Jack Parsons00:12:50
That's good.
Okay, short answer because angels and demons of the Bible are real.
They are the extraterrestrial time travelers.
Okay, that's why.
So it's all real.
All the stories in the Bible are real.
They're based on that, you know, it's like, you know, they're distorted.
But all this stuff, angels and demons, you know, Paradise Lost, John Milton and Lucifer and Satan is real.
They're all real.
These are high.
The Greek gods are real.
The Egyptian gods, you know, all that stuff, Stargate.
They're all coming back.
It's all true.
These are all time.
Okay, let me explain.
Okay, let me give them content.
And this is why the guys in the CIA, this is those guys who Lazar is talking about.
They know this.
This guy, John Ramirez, who's CIA retired, he knows all this.
He's one of my supporters.
John Ramirez, get in touch.
I have his email.
Just remind me.
What's happening is this.
The physics of UFOs, this tic-tac, everything that the Congress, with their idiots, they should be talking to me.
They're so stupid, okay?
You listen to Jack?
You call Jack.
Talk to me.
You talk to me.
You don't need anyone else.
You talk to the Safadi.
Don't fuck with the Safadi.
All right.
But now, seriously, all the physics of this stuff is very elementary.
All the physicists who are not stupid and who are not afraid, we all understand what's going on here.
It's not hard to understand.
It's easy.
It's easy to understand this stuff.
That means.
We know that there are plenty of, we know there's life all over the place.
There's no question of that.
We know that?
Of course we know that.
How do we know that?
We know that as a theoretical physicist.
I know it with almost 100%.
You know how I know it?
Because I know the laws of chemistry.
I know the laws of physics.
I know the DNA code.
And this is universal.
It doesn't just, it's called the Copernican principle.
We're not special.
This is all, you know, we're not some special thing.
It happens all over the place.
It's just chemistry, it's quantum mechanics, it's Schrodinger's equation.
You know and things that's just gonna evolve you pump energy in and the complex molecules form and the DNA codes forms and we're here.
We're not so special We don't have any evidence of life.
Yes, we do.
No See you don't understand how physics works.
I know from the laws of nature that it has to be but of course we know because I was kind of you know because right because you you know physics You claim all the stuff, but we don't know physics.
No, but you then you have to take my word for it.
I know more than you Yeah, you're a dumb little fuck Who's only 38 years old, and I'm 84 years old, and I know things that you don't know.
So learn.
Right, but explain to me.
Explain to me.
I mean, that was what's like a third grader.
How.
See, because it was something called the Copernican principle.
People used to think that the Earth was special.
And then the whole revolution in astronomy with Isaac Newton and Copernicus is that we're not the center of the universe.
So you're just still like the medieval peasant who still thinks we're the center of the universe.
The physics of life is out.
We have CRISPR, we have a genetic engineering, we know exactly how it works.
Right.
So it's universal.
It's going to happen.
But that doesn't prove that there's life out there, that there's interdimensional life or interplanetary life.
Yes, it proves it because we know, of course, it proves it.
If you believe in physics, it's got to be.
This is not even controversial.
Even people who disagree about the aliens and the flying saucer at the time, even they agree with me on this.
This is what I'm telling you now is mainstream now.
Anyone who.
See, you're not.
What is your.
Was your degree in college?
I went to college for six months and I dropped out.
Okay, so you don't know anything.
You don't know science.
You don't know.
Well, that's your job to explain it to me.
Yes, yeah, okay.
So you got, but I can't, it took me 50 years to know this.
Right, but what's the point of spending 50 years learning stuff if you can't explain it to me?
I'm just claiming.
Yeah, but what I'm explaining to you is you have to take my word for certain things because this is, we can't do everything.
You can't do a four year thing in 30 minutes.
Right.
But the thing is, what I'm claiming to you is, and this is not just me, this is now almost every scientist called.
Even the mainstream guys will say, we believe there's life out there.
It would contradict everything we know about science if there wasn't.
In other words, when there are these Goldilocks, when there are Earth like planets, they may not look exactly like us, but there's going to be DNA forming because we know how it forms.
It's inevitable.
So here's my point.
Let me make my point.
I'm just going to make the point.
I don't want to argue with you because you don't want to waste.
No, this is great.
This is fun.
I love this.
But the point is this what we know here's the story.
The physics of this stuff is so easy.
And life is universal, the DNA codes.
It's just quantum physics.
It's relativity.
It's just chemistry.
It's just simple chemistry.
And so, and the stars, because all the stars are the same carbon, and we understand stellar structure.
We don't have the stars.
We have the stars form the elements that lead to life.
But we don't have the physical proof.
We don't have a.
Oh, we do.
That's what Commander Forever is showing you.
That's what these guys, Ryan Graves, are showing you.
Yeah, but there's so much disinformation.
No, no.
Forget that.
Who knows what's real?
No, no, no.
Well, yes, there's some, but I'm Sarfati.
Take it from me.
I know what's real.
How do you know?
How do you know?
I know because I'm a genius.
That's how I know.
I know because I've been in direct contact with the aliens, with the time travelers, whatever.
I know.
Okay?
That's how I know.
I know.
And I know because of the physics I'm getting is exactly what they said was going to happen.
It's all happening.
And I know because what I'm telling you is how I met these guys.
How do you explain that?
Okay.
Oh, we were hoping you would call.
They knew where it was going.
You know, these guys, you see, the CIA themselves.
They're not in charge.
They're useful idiots.
Like, we're all puppets.
They're not the puppet mask.
They're the puppets.
They're maybe a little hard.
They're at different levels.
There's some puppets pulling strings of other puppets.
You know what I mean?
So that's how they.
So I meet Hal Put off.
Let's get back to this.
You'll hear that you could hear the tape where I'm meeting them in the talk.
I talk about the UFO from the future.
And that's because it was Russell Targ who brought it up.
I didn't bring it up.
He brings it up.
Okay.
So there we are.
So, how did, yeah, I'm claiming that is smoking gun evidence for time travel.
In other words, what happened to me in '53, the computer side was going to begin to meet these guys.
It happened exactly on cue, and there's no other way to explain it.
And it turns out the CIA was involved at the highest levels, but they're just as clueless.
They're just as, so to speak.
So, you're saying that as far as like a hierarchical, a hierarchy of power in our world is the top levels, the aliens.
Next level's intelligence.
Yeah well, I don't have the.
Okay, it depends.
Yeah yeah no, there's a higher intelligence.
They're more, they're more advanced than we are and they've mastered time travel.
I'm working on the equations of time travel.
That's what i'm doing.
That's what all this stuff is.
That's what they're doing at Lawrence Livermore now okay, they're testing my time travel equation okay okay, it's elementary physics.
Okay, you just got to take my.
You know, I could yell and scream, but you just you just got to take my word for it.
I just want to understand it.
That's yeah, you won't be able to understand.
You see, you want, you want too much, too fast.
It's not easy to understand.
This took me, this took us 60 years.
The smartest people don't still understand it, right?
But but I understand more than they do.
So the point is this this is being uh, that's what the destiny matrix is.
This high the the tic tacs, all these things the navy is seeing and the russians are seeing, they're neutralizing our nuclear missiles, right?
This is all, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's lots of documented cases.
So this is superior technology.
I am developing the basic equations for this technology for time travel to neutralize nuclear weapons, to go to warp drive, to go to Mars, you know.
In 10 minutes, we get the bars.
So, okay, going to the tic-tacs.
Yeah.
What do you, who is controlling those tic-tacs?
The same people who contacted me in 1953.
They're in control.
Who are those people?
Are those people?
I don't know who exactly who they are.
I just know they're there.
I don't know everything, but I know enough.
Are they people from the future?
Well, yes.
They're from the future.
I don't know if they're people.
What do you mean by people?
I don't know.
Are they, are they, are they?
It said it was a conscious computer.
Are they a conscious computer?
Yeah, so at least they're, you know, like Terminator.
But you don't know where they're from.
They're from, they said, well, in one case, the one guy, there's a whole side story where it said it was Ingo Swann, said it was 100 years in the future, and that was back about 40 years ago.
So it'll be 50, 60 years in the future, maybe by the end of the century.
Okay.
Okay.
Which makes sense, actually, because I think that's about when all this stuff will probably happen.
So assuming we don't knock ourselves out.
But this gets back to your Bob Lazar story the guy saying that the alien.
Had a sulfurous smell.
That's not Bob Lazar.
So, yes.
Oh, that's a friend of yours.
My friend James Fox.
He made a documentary called The Satanic Demon.
No, no, no.
So, James Fox made a documentary called The Roswell of Brazil.
And it was about in the 90s, the early 90s.
There were two creatures that were discovered by these girls that were walking through a field.
They saw this creature that reeked of sulfur.
Yeah.
And it was sitting there and it was like hurting and it was like telepathically communicating with one of them saying it needed help.
And later there was another one captured, I think at the same day, maybe later in the day, by the military or by the police, captured it alive, brought it to a hospital in Virginia, Brazil.
And James interviewed the x ray technician, a bunch of people that worked in the hospital.
They all said that there's pictures, illustrations of what they saw.
And they said people were in there taking photos and videos, although none of that's been released.
And they said that the hospital, they're being reeked of.
And the hospital smelled like sulfur for like weeks afterwards, even after the US military came in and took it out.
Yeah, this is where, this is exactly where John Milton got Paradise Lost and all these poetic things from the Elizabethan age and after that.
This is all true.
All these stories have truth in them.
And because, let me get the, life is everywhere, all different kinds of life, okay?
The physics is elementary.
So as soon as any civilization, anywhere that doesn't kill itself with nuclear bombs, they'll develop this technology.
So this is exactly Star Trek.
This is Star Trek is real.
And Gene Roddenberry was part of my I didn't know him personally.
Gene Roddenberry was influenced by the same people that I was involved with.
This guy, Andrea Paharich, Ari Geller, all these people connected.
I knew Francis Ford Coppola, who connected with Spielberg, Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
I'm the guy who got Jacques Valet to meet connected with Spielberg for Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
So everything is connected.
All these science fiction things and L. Ron Hubbard, they're all conditioning the public for the actual contact.
So there is no more science fiction.
Timothy Leary said it's science faction.
Okay, everything, all these movies.
Timothy Leary said that.
Yeah, Timothy was part of our group too.
Oh, really?
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
There's a whole thing.
Actually, some of it is in there.
We'll keep it down.
It's a complex story.
You can't tell it in like two hours, really.
Yeah, I knew Timothy Leary.
Timothy Leary said I was his heir.
Timothy Leary had, in fact, there's a guy.
Did you ever try LSD?
Yeah, a couple, yeah, but many years ago.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, two or three times.
Was that part of any of these studies?
Well, that's a whole other story.
I mean, actually, it does, that involves strategic defense, but yeah, it involves what?
The Strategic Defense Initiative.
How so?
We got time.
Yeah, well, because at that point, it was in the 1980s, we were working with the Reagan people, and I was with this guy, one of my mentors, so to speak, was this guy named Marshall Nafi.
Billionaire.
Yeah, one of the crazy movie theaters, cable television.
Timothy Leary and LSD00:02:22
He created Comcast.
Comcast was all created by Liberty Media.
Dunk Trumbull worked for him, you know, movie industry, movies.
He and his brothers, his father was already, was his father, grandfather, I guess his father, yeah, no, it must have been his father.
His father in the 1890s in San Francisco, Barbary Coast, the Nickelodeons, you know, the first movie, Nickelodeon with the movies, you know, the first movies like this, okay?
And his father's friend was Giannini, Bank of America, it was then called the Bank of Italy, became Bank of America.
Okay.
So this is back like before World War, around World War I.
Okay?
And so Giannini gives money to Marshall Nafie's dad, and they form United Artists Studios.
Back, you know, it's just the silent movies.
Douglas Fairbanks, Charlie Chaplin, all these guys, if you know the history of the movies and all.
And so this is so, you know, they're one of the primary families of Hollywood.
Okay.
Okay.
And okay, and when Marshall was.
Around 20 years old, like the before, right before the war, 1938 or so, his buddy.
Do you know who Gary Cooper was?
No, you don't know.
Gary was darkness at noon.
Who was he?
It's Gary Cooper was, it's like you know, Cary Grant.
Nope god, you guys, i'm like god, I feel I feel like i'm.
These are the famous 1930s 20s Holly, you know who he is?
Yeah, sounds familiar god okay, this is amazing, amazing.
What am I doing?
I'm on this planet i'm, i'm in the other, i'm not.
This is not my planet guys, not my planet.
Okay.
I know Gary Cooper's daughter is a friend of mine.
If she heard this, she'd be shocked.
Sorry.
Yeah.
These are all famous Hollywood movie stars, 1930s to 40s.
Okay.
Marilyn Monroe.
You know Marilyn Monroe?
Sounds familiar.
No, you're kidding.
They're right.
I know who she is.
Joe DiMaggio.
I mean, yeah, she was here, Marilyn Monroe.
Okay.
So, in any case, so Gary Cooper and Marshall, the kids, they go on a tour of Europe.
And they're invited to meet the Queen of England and the King of Denmark.
Marilyn Monroe and Roy Cohn00:15:18
I mean, these are very highs.
When Franklin Delano Roosevelt came to San Francisco, he stayed at the Navy's house.
Okay.
Pacific Heights here.
You know, now where Nancy Pelosi and Feinstein, you know, the fancy mansions there.
And so, in any case, so it's now the early 1980s.
And Marshall is.
He's kind of like a shaman.
Now, he really is kind of like a puppet master type guy.
You know, he's.
Very psychic.
Remember, he's a billionaire already.
Back then he had a billion dollar, more than a billion dollars, and so and and I did ELLA and he was the, he did a, he did LST.
So I did Lst with Marshall about two or three times and we had time.
We went back to ancient Egypt time, all kinds of like interesting trips.
I was back in ancient Egypt with Marshall, really in an Emerald Temple.
Yeah well, you know it was like that, you know it was.
That was the experience, and then I was a knight in the Templars and the Crusades.
It's all real, you know.
So it's like time travel.
The sort of stuff you read what he's talking about in there, in that book, but what David Gladstone, give me the book for a minute.
What David Gladstone, yeah, can you see it?
What Gladstone talks about in this book, I actually had those experiences.
Raise it up a little bit higher.
I had some of those experiences, it's on Amazon.
I had some of those same kind of experiences that Gladstone talks about that sound crazy with Marshall Nafi, billionaire, friend of Ronald Reagan.
Okay, so what happened was this is the backstory of the Strategic Defense Initiative.
And Kim Barofato can confirm, Kim was there with me.
Kim, you know, the guy you met with Marshall, you know, can confirm everything I'm telling you, witness.
Okay, so and this guy who wrote the book, he was part of it too.
So there are many witnesses to all this stuff.
And so I challenge anybody who wants to say Jack Sarfati is lying, you come and you, you know, mano a mano, you face me and we'll discuss.
Okay.
So that's an open challenge.
Okay.
Want to duel with Sarfati?
I'll duel with you.
Okay.
All right.
So now, Ronald Reagan.
Okay, let's get to Ronald Reagan.
Ronald Reagan is the governor of California in the late 70s.
There's a guy named Laurie Chickering.
He just died a week ago.
And Laurie Chickering.
Comes to the Chickering family, the old WASP family, like Mayflower type, you know, the old in New England, but they're here in San Francisco.
And Laurie's brother is high up, one of his brothers is already high up in the Central Intelligence Agency.
Laurie goes to Yale, he's skull and bones and all that stuff, you know, and he's a close friend of William F. Buckley Jr.
I don't know if you know who that is.
I've heard of him.
Yeah, National Review, you know.
And Laurie comes back to San Francisco and he.
Is involved with Caspar Weinberger, who became Reagan's Secretary of Defense, Brent Scowcroft, General, who became head of, I think, Reagan's National Security Agency, and who else?
Milton Friedman, economist, Chicago, actually.
That's maybe why they wanted me to go to Chicago.
Milton Friedman.
Yeah.
And who was some of the other guys?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Who's the guy?
Donald Rumsfeld.
Donald Rumsfeld.
Okay.
Right guy.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And he was a good looking guy, but, you know, not that smart again.
Okay.
Don Ronsall, and who's the other one?
I'm leaving somebody important out.
Don Ronsall, let's see.
Well, it'll come to me.
And they set up a think tank.
Reagan's still the governor, like in 78, 79, called the Institute for Contemporary Studies down here on Kearney Street, right near where Francis Coppola has his building.
And they're the main thing.
They're connected with the Hoover at Stanford, the Hoover Institution.
And I became, I was kind of like their.
Informal science guy.
And in any case, they got, they're the main thing that they engineered, one of the main think tanks that engineered Reagan getting into the White House.
So Reagan is the president now in 1980.
I think before he shot, was he already shot, or before that guy shot him?
It was around 1980, 1981.
Rand Reagan's a close friend.
I mean, Marshall just called the White House and he wants us to.
Ronnie, hey, Ronnie, you know what?
It's Marshall.
It's that kind of thing.
Okay.
And all these guys hanged at the Cafe Trieste where I showed you.
Everybody's hanging out there at the Cafe Trieste.
Wow.
Okay.
Coppola, Francis Coppola, whenever.
When Reshtakov came, you know, Julie Christie, when anybody from Hollywood comes, that's their hangout.
And another place called Enrico Benducci's down the street.
Enrico was a, you know, kind of a nightclub.
And so, in any case, at one point, so, yeah, so now Marshall, for example, if a guy named, if Coppola wanted to make a movie, Marshall's like the finance.
You want to make a big movie, Hollywood movie, talk to Marshall, talk to the Nafi brothers first.
Okay, you know James Bond, the James Bond movies?
Yes.
Okay.
Do you ever see, but Sean Connery?
Of course.
Okay, well, Marshall was, Al Broccoli made those movies.
Marshall Nafi was his silent partner because he was, by law, for taxes or something, So, you can have movie theaters and be not supposed to do movies, productions.
They split it for Monopoly, whatever.
In any case, Marshall had one of the old movies, the Black Aston Martin, the convertible that he drives.
There were four of those made for the movies, four of those.
We had one of them.
Marshall had one in his.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
So, Marshall's a powerful man.
This is now 1980.
He helped Reagan get into power.
And you know, I'm spoken dope with driving around.
Is we go to Mount Tam, get stoned, and he was an evangelical Christian.
You're trying to convert it to you, right?
Right, evangelical Christian.
Listen, that's what in the dope, the dope filled Jaguar, driving around listening to Jesus gonna save you, man.
So, and that's what you know, we tried LSD a couple of times.
You know, I had time travel trips, all right.
Anyways, Laurie.
Chickering is now running the Institute for Contemporary Studies.
And for some reason, he wants to meet, have lunch with Marshall.
He had some project.
He wanted to meet Marshall.
So he says, Laurie says, can you arrange a lunch?
We'll have lunch at Enrico's, who's a close friend of Marshall.
Enrico's where all the movie stars would hang out on Broadway back then.
Woody Allen, all kinds of people.
And Mort Saul.
And so I arranged a lunch, and we were having lunch.
sitting around this round table and Enrico, who plays the violin, and he's cooking pasta for everybody.
It's like right out of a Godfather movie, you know, sitting around there.
And Marshall was stoned at the time.
Maybe I was stoned too, I don't know, because we probably smoked before we went to lunch.
But Laurie was straight.
Laurie didn't, you know, he doesn't know any of this stuff.
He doesn't know about, you know, he's a very straight, you know, running, you know, neocon type guy.
And what we didn't know, Marshall had just made a movie with Al Broccoli and Sean Connery called Meteor.
You'd see it, 1980 or so, 1981.
So Marshall's talking, and he's kind of like in reverie, and he says, You know, what if, it's Marshall, what if the extraterrestrials were going to attack us?
They were coming.
This is like he's thinking in this movie, there was a meteor going to come to us.
But Marshall says, What if there was, and what if, you know, just the Cold War is on, 1980, Soviet Union.
He says, what if we had to get together with Russia to fight the ETs?
And we got the laser missiles and we shoot down the flying saucers with the laser beams and all that stuff.
But he was talking because he had just made a movie, but kind of that stuff was in the movie.
It was science fiction for him.
But he was just talking.
So this is all being arranged in the future.
This could, yeah, I mean, this, you know, this.
So, so Laurie, okay, so we have the lunch.
Marshall leaves and Laurie, and I'm like working, you know.
Laurie's giving me a little bit of money, you know, living on the edge, bohemians.
You'll see, he talks about it in there, in that book.
Laurie says, Hey, Jack, that was pretty interesting.
Can you write up what Marshall was talking about?
So I have a little thing, and I was working on stuff too about neutralizing nuclear weapons with laser beams.
I was working on that myself.
So I put in some of my stuff, and then also in there I say, and with this new technology, You know, Sarfati space even then.
I didn't have it the way I have it now.
But this new technology, we can render nuclear weapons impotent and obsolete, which is what the Tic Tacs are doing already.
I already had that back in 1980.
It's in this memorandum that I wrote.
Okay, so it's a short thing.
I give it to Lori.
A few weeks go by.
I'm walking into the Cafe Trieste where I took you, where we met Kim last night.
Lori comes up to me excited.
Says, hey, Jack.
Well, he's, you know, he doesn't talk like that.
I mean, he's, you know, he's an aristocrat, you know.
And he says, you know, I gave that report to Paul Nietzsche.
If you look at Paul Nietzsche, N I T Z E, was the main arms control, you know, security guide for Reagan, advising him on how to deal with the Russians and stuff like that.
Okay.
Okay.
And Nietzsche really liked it.
Okay.
So it went right to Reagan.
Okay.
This report.
And then when Reagan found out that Marshall Nafi, who was his buddy from Hollywood, I say, in fact, okay, now Edward Teller, Edward Teller was pushing for this stuff, missile defense and lasers.
Right.
Okay.
And here Marshall's talking about it too.
So Marshall may have known about Teller.
Yeah, he may have known a little bit about it.
Didn't they have some sort of program they were working on with DARPA where they wanted to create some sort of like, Dome around the United States.
No, wait, that's no, wait, no, wait, don't do that.
Just stay on this.
That's what we're doing now.
That's what I'm doing.
Okay, but wait, that's what Safari Space Corp is all about.
I read about this though in that DARPA book that they worked on this back in the day.
Yeah, yeah, but they didn't have it because that was me.
That was my people.
I mean, I know that they didn't have it.
They didn't have it.
They thought about it.
It was psychological warfare.
We were thinking about it.
Yeah.
Uh huh.
But it never happened.
Well, the Iron Dome, you know, that's the Iron Dome, the missiles against missiles.
That's something else.
I'm talking about some.
No, that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about some sort of like force field.
Force field.
Yeah, exactly.
All right, wait a second.
I guess, okay, wait.
Let me finish this.
Okay, okay.
Yeah, the answer is yes, I'm the guy for that.
Okay, I'm the guy who knows how to do that.
Okay, all right, all right, basically is what I'm saying.
All right, so now, and I and anybody wants to challenge me, you come.
I don't care who the hell you are, you come, you know, you heard it here, folks.
Yeah, you come and we'll talk about all this.
Get in the octagon with you.
We'll talk about this in front of a million people and then we'll see who wins.
Okay, okay, all right, all right.
So now, so but let's get back to this.
So, so at the same time, Paul Nietzsche is taking this memorandum I wrote, and then Edward Teller.
has a biography, his autobiography called Dark Matters.
And Tell is talking about how he was trying to get Reagan to go for a strategic defense initiative.
And Reagan, you know, so I found out later, Reagan did not trust Teller.
Reagan thought, because Reagan always was wondering, well, yeah, I don't, you know, maybe he's a double agent or whatever.
You know, he was a little paranoid about Teller.
And Teller says in his book, he was out of the loop.
He doesn't know.
He was totally shocked when Reagan finally went executive order, whatever it was, for strategic defense leadership.
That's because of the Sarfati memo with Marshall Nafi's name on it.
That, you know, I guess Reagan spoke to Marshall, you know, Marshall's his buddy, trusts Marshall.
Right.
You know, they would drink, you know, they would socialize together back, you know.
And so, but also at that time, Cap Weinberger, who was then the Secretary of Defense, I already had a following then, kind of, you know.
And Cap Weinberger's son, Cap Jr., was, you know, like part of my fan club.
Okay.
So I was writing a bunch of crazy stuff about all this stuff, and UFOs, and, you know, and EPR, and, you know, communication with submarines, untappable.
It's all in the book, How the Hippies Say Physics.
And so all of my writings was also going directly to the Secretary of Defense, Cap Weinberger, through his son, Cap Jr. would take, you know, Cap Jr. was, well, I don't want to make it too much.
It was like Hunter Biden and Joe Biden, except they weren't crooks, I don't think.
Okay, but it was like Hunter Biden was Was Cap Jr., but he wasn't a dope addict, right?
He said he's a straight guy, okay?
And in fact, he's still alive.
You should try to find him.
I don't know what happened to him because Cap Jr. can confirm.
He actually confirmed this guy, this guy Bill Burns, who did History Channel UFOs.
You know Bill Burns?
Did you ever hear Bill Burns?
Any case.
You're talking about William Burns, the director of the CIA?
No, no, it's a different Bill Burns.
Okay.
That's a different.
But see if you can find, see if Jim Angleton will know how to find Cap Weinberger Jr.
He's probably still alive.
I could actually find him.
I could find him.
I have.
Okay.
But we should try to find him because he could confirm all this stuff.
And Cap Jr. was telling us that he would fly to Camp David with his dad, Cap, and the president, and they would spend weekends in Camp David and they would go over some of my stuff.
Camp David Secrets Revealed00:09:39
Okay?
You know, the writings, they would discuss it.
And also, and then in Reagan's, I think it's his 1984, maybe his 1986 State of the Union, he talks about me.
He doesn't mention it.
He says, and we know the physicists.
They have touched the face of God.
They show how God exists in there.
I was talking about all that stuff, all this religion, all that stuff.
And about Star Wars and all this stuff that we're going to do.
He gives a very inspiring talk based on Jack Sarfati's information that he was getting.
And I even have a letter from Cap Weinberger thanking me for my work, Super Illumina, all this stuff.
All right.
So, of course, the Russians were following all this.
The Russians were involved in all this.
How so?
Because we had back channels.
We would be talking to Russians.
The Russians were already at Esalen.
See, the Russians already knew about me back in the.
The Russians already.
Okay.
We were already.
The Russians first contacted us in 1975 at around the same time that Koopman's telling me, you know, we want you to work on this.
Because we did a book.
We did a book about Uri Geller called Space, Time, and Beyond.
It sold a couple hundred thousand copies and influenced.
Hollywood.
That's how I met Ellie Coppola because of that book.
That's how I came in with Coppola.
That's how Jacques Valet got involved and everything.
See, it's all being orchestrated by this higher power, okay?
Okay.
Yeah, this can't happen.
It's not a random thing.
All these strange, what Jung called synchronicities, all these strange coincidences happening.
It's all kind of connected.
Like, I know Jack, I know Frank Molina, who was Jack Parsons' partner, and I stay with Frank Molina in Paris at his place, at his beautiful place.
You know, and, you know, he is, you know, so I mean, everybody's connected to everybody.
And L. Ron Hubbard and Andrea, everybody, we're like two or three.
Connections away.
So if you do a web of who knows who, you'll see it's a tight web, like a tight spider web.
Destiny, I call that the Destiny Matrix.
It's not random, it's being orchestrated.
Why did you?
You told me that the Russians came here to interview you about some stuff.
Yeah, well, that's more recently.
Wait, let's go back.
The first Russian thing is we have this book, which is basically a CIA engineered book, right?
Which I didn't know at the time.
I was what's called a useful idiot, not really, sort of suspecting, but not knowing for sure.
All right, uh, because it didn't come out publicly that the that what they were doing with Geller was CIA and Mossad until much later.
Now it's it's in that book, you know, it's in their books, these are books that Third Eye Spy.
Uri Geller has books, but you know, yeah, so now it's all public information.
Then it wasn't, and I wasn't even sure, I suspected, but I wasn't sure.
So, so the book comes out, Space MBL, which we wrote in Paris, and uh, and E.P. Dutton.
And in there, we have this thing about bio, bio, bio gravity.
I don't know.
It's some crazy thing that Bob Tobin was into.
And I kind of went along with it.
Yeah, Fred went along with it more.
I wasn't that.
But then we get a call from Bob.
Oh, yeah.
What's this guy?
White.
Dan Whitehead.
Dan Whitehead was the editor at Dutton Books in Manhattan.
And Dan Whitehead gets a call from the, I guess, the Russian Embassy in New York saying, We are concerned.
That Tobin and Wolf Safari wrote this book about biofields, but they didn't give us credit.
We had this Russian side, that's his theory, and didn't give it credit.
That's our first overt contact.
Why didn't we give them credit?
Sorry, give them credit.
We didn't know, that sort of thing.
So that's the first overt thing.
And then it was on Vet and Esselen.
Then, already, now let's see.
Well, okay, so then in the 1980s, okay, then, like, this is now after this stuff with Reagan, around, yeah, just when Reagan gave that State of the Union speech in 1986 or so.
Now you wonder about, okay, so now, at that point, there was no internet.
There were Xerox machines.
And I would, you know, the way I do emails, I was doing like Xerox mailings.
I had like a network with this guy, Ira Einhorn.
So I was at, I remember I was down at Washington Square.
There was a Xerox store there where there's now the Victoria Bakery.
And I was like Xeroxing stuff to mail out.
You know, it was a crazy period.
And I get a guy taps me on the shoulder.
It's a guy, Harold Chipman.
Harold Chipman.
Now, you look him up and look at me, Harold Chipman.
Harold Chipman was chief of station of the Central Intelligence Agency office in San Francisco.
Okay, now this is like overt.
It could be more of a threat.
I look out there, there he is.
He says who he is.
We go to the cafe, and he says he wants to.
This is like now, you know, it's official.
It's a CIA.
I even went to the CIA office with him a couple of times.
In fact, I started, I wanted a date.
There was a pretty CIA agent, a woman, blonde, who I, yeah, we went to Gold's Cafe.
Yeah, I was hitting on her.
You know, this is now a relationship going on.
Good old honey trap.
Well, no, but she was already, she didn't, you know, we were just friends.
She, you know, nothing ever happened, but, you know, I would have liked something to happen.
We went drinking at bars a couple of times, you know, down.
Um, and she became she's actually went pretty high up, I think.
She still may be alive, she still may be probably retired.
I know, you know, and um, damn.
So, in any case, so I was involved with you know, I used to hang out, you know, I was involved with all these CIA guys in San Francisco.
So, um, and at that point, you know, I even have documents on this.
And at that point, um, they wanted to set up oh, just like now, the Sarfati Institute to work on all this stuff, you know, all this, you know, communication with submarines, with the.
Fast saw with entanglement, you know, like what's now called quantum information theory, quantum computing.
We had all the quantum spin computing, all had the idea of quantum computing already.
Right.
All right.
And he wanted to set up.
And so he took me, okay, so Chipman, he was Catholic, old Catholic, with a coat of arms.
And he was a member of Opus Dei, which is like the Catholic guy with the Pope, you know, back in his kidding with the Vatican.
That's how you know, and also the Knights of Malta.
The Knights of Malta.
All right.
And he was a member, I don't know, do you know, but the club, the Explorers Club in Washington, D.C.
It's like the Bohemian Grove sort of thing, type thing in Washington, D.C.
He was a member of the Explorers Club.
And he, now it turns out he was also involved in the MKUltra CIA experiments, LSC, in San Francisco.
How was he involved with that?
He was running it or something, but he was the early CIA.
He was one of the guys in charge of it.
What?
Yeah, yes.
And then he also was the guy behind.
The CIA operation had to stay with Hal Puthoff and all these guys.
Okay?
He was behind.
What's his name again?
Harold Chipman.
Harold Chipman.
Hal Chipman.
They called him Chip.
Chip.
Harold Chipman.
Chipman.
Harold Chipman.
You look him up.
But he was Burlington.
He was a real James Bond.
He was like a guy when he was younger.
He was like, you know, he was.
He went into Russia soon.
And they attacked in the Ural Mountains.
This is before I met him.
They went in and they did an operation trying to get secrets on some bioweapon that they were working on in the Ural Mountains, and something went wrong, and hundreds of Russians were killed inadvertently.
You know, the team had got screwed up, and he felt very guilty about that because it was not meant to happen.
It was like to go in, get the information, get out without anybody even knowing, but something went wrong.
And as a result, hundreds of people, maybe thousands of people, died in this secret Soviet bioweapons lab back, I don't know when it was.
Right.
Okay.
That ultimately led.
Hal was assassinated by the KGB before when I knew him, you know.
Wow.
Because it was payback, and they said, and he kind of excited, they poisoned him like the polonium poison, what they do, like this guy.
He was poisoned that way.
And as he was dying, he got a call from the Soviet consul here, who was here back then, saying, How are you doing, you know?
And they couldn't prove.
But at that point, he felt so bad.
He was really affected because.
How do you know about all this stuff with him?
How do you know about all these things?
You know, she told me.
She told you all this?
Yeah, of course.
I'm not making it up.
So, like when he was dying from this poison, he called you up and told you?
Well, we already know.
Well, yeah, yeah.
Well, there's another guy.
This guy, Riley, is another guy who was part of our group who was close to him.
And this involves Iran Contra and weapons deals.
I knew all kinds of stuff about what was going on back then, you know, with the Iran Contras.
Ray Klein's Poisoned Death00:06:40
This is all, everything's involved.
And I was on the edge of all that stuff, you know.
And there's this guy, Stephen, you have to interview Stephen Schwartz.
That'd be for something.
But in any case, so.
What was happening, he wanted to.
Hal was trying to set up, he took me to the University of San Francisco, Father Joseph Petzio, who is the head of the, I guess, the Jesuit order, you know, at the University of San Francisco.
I met Father Petzio, Joseph Petzio, and they were going to set up this institute, think tank, for me to work on all the stuff that we're doing now, actually, back then in the 1980s.
And if you look, I could show you who he's had a Roosevelt, one of the Roosevelt guys, one of the sons of FDR was involved.
I actually have the stuff.
And all these guys from the, Ray Klein, all these top guys from Wall Street, you know, who are all going to be on the board of directors.
They're all set up, this whole thing set up.
And it would have happened, but then he was suddenly, he got polonium, whatever, and he died.
So that's it.
It's happening again now.
It's happening now, right?
But this is back then.
It was already supposed to happen, but didn't happen.
All right.
So now it's happening now.
Wow.
All right.
So, you know, there's a.
In fact, let me.
Wait, is my book Destiny Matrix?
Do you see the book Destiny Matrix?
Oh, yeah.
Let me just see if I can find it.
There it is.
Yeah.
Yeah, this is still on.
Can you see this?
Everything I'm telling you is in this book.
You get this on Amazon.
Okay.
It's actually being redone.
There's a new edition that's being expanded.
This stops at 2002.
Look at that, man.
What a cover.
Yeah, it stops at 2,000.
What is that little guy in the front of it?
I don't.
That's just some.
Time traveler.
So this is by Chipman here, and this is this thing.
Hey, let me just see.
The Sarfati Institute.
This institute proposed to be located at the University of San Francisco, be funded by the Sarfati Corporation.
They're bringing in money.
Goals of the institute.
The goals will, and this is an official CIA thing.
Goals the Institute to conduct basic research in the quantum physics of non local phenomena discovered by Albert Einstein in 1935, the Einstein Podolsky Rosen Bohm effect, and to develop applications of the basic mathematics and physics research into patents for untappable, unjammable command control communications, sixth generation quantum spin correlation supercomputers.
This is 1985.
Okay, wait.
Get this.
Quantum zero point energy release for interstellar rocket engines.
Super technology for the Strategic Defense Initiative, SDI, to reduce the possibility of nuclear war.
Pi orbital electron spin control of recombinant genetic engineering.
It's like CRISPR now, or something.
Remember, this is 40 years ago.
Manipulation of Hoyle Girdle loops in time.
That's the warp drive stuff.
And you know, that's flying sauces.
I want to talk to you about that real quick.
Okay, but wait, let's finish this.
Otherwise, get too scattered.
The other fundamental applications as they emerge from the basic research program.
Now, the style of the institute.
This is the highest levels of people involved in this thing, okay?
Top minds, both established and up and coming, should be paid to come and conduct research in an environment where they are unafraid to speculate.
Remember, I didn't write this stuff.
This is written by the CIA.
Unafraid to speculate.
That's interesting.
Yeah, okay, this is important.
This is ahead of its time.
Seminars, both formal and informal, shall take place.
Entertaining educational media shall be developed for the public.
Sounds like to the Stars Academy now, right?
Scientists, poets, artists, political theorists, philosophers, military and intelligence officers, politicians, captains of industry, and theologians shall be gathered together for workshops on the cultural impact of breakthroughs in the new physics.
This is exactly like the Bohemian Grove.
That's what happens at Bohemian Grove?
Yeah, that's pretty much what happens at Bohemian Grove.
Oppenheimer, this is public.
Oppenheimer, the way the Manhattan Project started, I don't know if they have this in the movie, Oppenheimer gave a speech up in this chalet.
I've been there.
The chalet, all these top generals and politicians in 1941, 42, saying with the Salard paper that we have to build the atomic bomb.
It was all done through the Bohemian Grove, through Bohemian Club, which is a club down here in.
Yeah, okay.
All right, now just let me.
Okay, I'm not gonna, but let me say the people, some of the people, some of the people, and this is important.
Some of the people, okay, banking, senior partner, Paul Berry Associates.
These are you gotta look these guys up.
Oh, yeah, you know, you could, you could, you could, okay, all right, yeah, that's cool.
Let's, okay, okay, let's keep going.
Okay, there's also, okay, this is his background.
You see all the CIA subordinate, wait, but just some of the other people who he was involved, okay.
Science, Arthur Shallow, Nobel Prize, one of the lasers.
Shallow.
I don't know.
Military, E.B. Roberts, Johnson Johnson, Corporate.
These are religious father, Joseph Pescios.
The religion is already here, right?
So everything that the guys tell you, there it is.
It's right here.
This is the Vatican, okay?
Political, Dr. Ray Klein.
You look up who Ray Klein is.
Senior associate, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Georgetown University.
Look up who Ray Klein is.
This is a big shot, okay?
These are friends, these are Chipman's buddies.
Oh, wow.
Okay?
The economic, Donald Hyde, okay.
Economic, oh, yeah.
Archibald B. Roosevelt, Jr.
Archibald B. Roosevelt, you know, a son of the FDR, is part of this project.
Chester Bunnell, oh, there's a John G. Altenberg, oh, Altenberg.
Altenberg's a famous guy.
Skeptical Government Testimonies00:01:14
Okay.
So this is, you know, here, this is the actual document that I reprinted in this book that shows you what the CA was into.
And it was actually ahead of it, it would have been great to have had it happen.
It sort of happened, but haphazard, and it's now happening.
Again, they're trying to do it again.
It's now happening right now.
It's now happening, and that is the.
You were trying to explain to me last night when I was asking you about the Grush testimonies and all the stuff that he was saying.
And I was explaining to you that I was highly skeptical of the whole thing.
The fact that they made it this big dog and pony show on national television.
And, you know, I always question it.
When the government starts to get behind it, I always question motives and what's going on.
Okay, if I say the government, there is no such thing anymore.
There's no government.
We're in a state of chaos.
Alright, guys, that brings us to the end of part one of my conversation with Jack Sarfati.
That's right, we have an entire second part of this conversation dropping next week.
Jack and I get deep into the new UFO whistleblower disclosures, some black budget DARPA programs, and Jack is going to illustrate exactly how his UFO warp drive equation works.
You're not going to want to miss it.
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