Mike Clelland details his decade-long research linking owls to UFO abductions, citing personal encounters since 2006 and childhood flashes in 1974. He analyzes the Zimbabwe children's telepathic experience with Dr. John Mack and speculates owls act as dimensional gateways or alien surveillance drones. Through hypnosis revealing a past life as a gray alien, Clelland questions his own identity while promoting his books, The Messengers and Hidden Experience, ultimately suggesting these phenomena offer solace to trauma survivors despite lacking hard physical proof. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Owls, UFOs, and Ancient Mythology00:04:56
Hello, world!
Mike Cleland began his study of the UFO abduction phenomenon in 2006 as a way to better understand his own personal experiences.
He has since collected a wealth of first hand accounts in which owls manifest in highly charged moments that surround alien contact.
Mike has uncovered a mysterious connection between owls, synchronicities, and UFO abduction.
By looking at these elusive and often ignored aspects of abduction lore, something truly mystical seems to be revealing itself.
And points to a deeper reality at play in these mysteries.
It was Mike's first hand experiences with these elusive events that have been the foundation of his research.
Mike has published three books on the subject, his first one being Owls, Synchronicity, and the UFO Abductee.
Without further ado, please enjoy this fascinating conversation with Mike Cleland.
Hello, Mike.
Hello.
Thank you.
Thank you for coming on the show.
My honor.
You've spent the last 10 years studying owls and paranormal phenomenon surrounding owls.
A little more like 15 years, but somewhere in between.
It's been 15 years.
Well, 2006 was really when I started studying it.
I got really active around 2009.
Why owls, Mike?
Okay.
So that's the premise of, that's the mystery, basically.
Why owls?
In the mythology of owls, like the old folklore, the ancient mythology, the wives' tales, the owls seem to so for ancient man, owls could see into the night.
And they, I mean, obviously, ancient man would have seen that, would have recognized that, and the mythologies have built up around that.
And not only does the owl see into the night and fly in the darkness, The core of the mythologies would be that the owl would fly into the darkness and then return with a message.
And that's really consistent across the world's mythologies.
So, if we update that to present day, you know, the owl in the mythology can travel to other realms, can travel to other dimensions, can travel to the land of the dead, can travel to the land of the gods, can pass that veil and return with a message.
Presently, in my research, I'm finding that that parallels much of what I'm finding.
So the ancient mythology is showing up present day in real life events.
Now, if we turn the clock back, you know, 400 years and we're sitting in a village somewhere in South Dakota, and I had a powerful owl experience, a powerful mystical owl experience, I had an experience with an owl where it felt highly charged, it felt important.
I would have had an outlet.
I would have been able to go to the shaman at the edge of the village and sit in his teepee and talk about or address the mystery of the owl, and the culture would have had some way to grasp that.
We don't live in that world anymore.
Like, our culture has a tough time grasping the fact that owls have a rich mythic tradition and that it is playing out in real time right now.
And people, so if someone has a real experience with an owl, they're about Two mouse clicks away from finding me.
If you type UFOs, owls, you're going to find me.
And so I have been getting these stories, a lot of them, like once a day, I get a really good A story.
And so your question was why owls?
It's a long answer.
But the owls seem to impart and seem to hold and seem to have a resonance that punctuates or that.
Um that colors these paranormal experiences.
Now the core of my study has been UFO stuff, but it certainly goes all over the map.
It goes to death, it goes to meditation, it goes to psychedelic drugs, it goes to um, shamanic initiations.
These are all well understood in the folklore.
That owls play a role so that they show up in connection with Ufos is really interesting to me because that that overlaps these other things, death, shamanic initiation and um Like a psychedelic trip, and also meditation.
Thirty Years of Paranormal Memories00:13:34
I think I said that, yeah.
So, your question why owls?
I wish I had a good.
Simple answer.
I don't because I'm still struggling with what it may or may not mean.
So, how did this whole thing start for you?
When did you have your first owl experience, and what made you become so fascinated by owls?
So, in 2006, I went camping with a woman named Kristen, and I was living at the time right next to Grand Teton National Park, and I was working for an outdoor school, and she worked for the school too.
And I had been away all summer.
And now, this seems really funny, and I, the culture in that town, in that part of the world, right next to a national park, like taking someone camping for a first date is pretty normal.
So I kind of said, you know like oh, you must have camped a lot this summer.
You've been here all summer.
It was it was august, excuse me, it was october when I asked her and she said no, I haven't camped at all.
I'm like that's terrible, let's go out camping, let's go out for one night.
And she said yes.
So we went out for one night and we sat under the stars and for and we, we didn't take a tent with us.
We knew there was going to be a um, The weather was going to be nice, so we didn't bother taking a tent.
So, her and I sat as the sun was setting, and I was making dinner on a little camp stove.
The conversation got really deep like, surprisingly deep.
And I remember this is a total stranger.
I'm looking at her and I'm thinking, This is I didn't expect this depth to this person, this spiritual depth to her.
And at that moment, an owl flew over us, and then another owl, and then a third owl.
So, there were three owls flying around us.
As the sun was setting and and we eventually laid our sleeping bags down under the stars and and the owls would still fly over us.
They would fly right over our faces and they would blot out the stars for just one second.
It was so mystical.
And after that camping trip I said let's go camping again, and she said okay.
And so four days later we went out for one night again, and this time in another part of the mountains, and it was colder that night and so and it and we had a tent set up.
It looked like it might rain.
It actually snowed that night and we, We said, let's, I said, let's walk up to that hill before the sun goes down, because we can watch the sunset and it'll give us a chance to warm up so we can climb into the tent a little warmer.
So we hiked to the top of the hill.
And at the top of the hill, as the sun is setting, three owls land near us, fly around us.
And now it happened four days earlier and they were kind of off in the distance and they would kind of swoop above us.
But this time it was, they were on the branch right next to us.
And one of these owls landed right at our feet.
And I just remember looking at her and she had this wide-eyed expression of just like total astonishment.
And I, now what I didn't say at the time, because it was too weird, and I'm saying it now, I've sort of crossed the line, I've like totally abandoned myself to this.
What I, I heard a voice in my head both the first time and the next night.
I heard a voice in my head looking at these real owls that said, this has something to do with the UFOs.
And after that, those experiences, like I kind of had felt like I had permission to ask people, have you ever had any odd experiences with owls?
And I had a little blog.
Oh, excuse me.
I started the blog three years later in 2009.
So when I started that blog, one of the questions I put right out there and talked about and wrote about was, you know, like, hey, has anyone had any odd experiences with owls?
I want to hear your stories.
And what happened is I got flooded with these stories.
And so I've been archiving, cataloging, trying to make sense of these stories.
And it has turned into a full-time job.
So it's been rewarding in all ways except financially.
But it has been remarkably rewarding to take on this research.
Now, just one thing.
So, on the first couple of days of the blog, I put the story up with Kristen.
That was her name, the woman that I took camping.
And I got back to her after I had published the story on the blog or posted the story on the blog.
And I got back to her and I said, What were we talking about?
I remember we were talking about something the very first night that we saw the first owls.
You were talking about something.
She said, oh, I remember exactly what I was talking about.
She said, I was talking about, I was trying to describe my deepest, most heartfelt definition of what God means to me.
So, like, that takes an already mystical story and really pumps it up into almost the transcendent.
So for me, those are the kinds of ethereal clues I'm looking for.
Like, I'm not a nuts and bolts UFO researcher.
Like, I have actually gone to sites and measured.
the burn marks in a yard.
I've done that kind of thing.
But the real stuff, the real meat of it to me is this elusive mystical stuff that seems to be intertwined with the totality of the phenomenon.
So how long before you had this first OWL experience had you been sort of intrigued or interested in UFOs?
Well, I, as a boy, as a 12-year-old boy, I was walking home from a high school football game.
So the high school football field was close to the my house and it was what all the kids did on a Friday night.
So, and this would have been October.
I was living in Michigan.
It was a beautiful night.
I was walking home with a friend and I wanted to be home in time to see a television series.
Do you know the TV show Coleshack, The Night Stalker?
I've heard of it, but I've never seen it.
It was a predecessor to The X-Files.
It was about a reporter who, you know, looks at ghosts and zombies and vampires and stuff like that.
And so I, I, we got to a, Point in the neighborhood, and there was this bright orange flash in the sky.
And we both said the same thing.
We both kind of went, What just happened?
And all I saw was this orange flash.
It felt like God flipped a light switch.
Click, the sky turned bright orange.
Click, this went back to normal night.
Like everything, the whole sky turned bright orange.
There was no noise.
Then we went through the little checklist.
Could it have been like a meteorite?
Could it have been like a telephone pole exploding?
Could it have been a plane crash?
Did something.
None of it made sense.
It was totally quiet.
It was.
and it was jarring it was really weird and we both were like that didn't seem right so i got to my house he went further into the neighborhood i got home and my parents were waiting for me and i walked in the door and i said they said why are you out so late they were angry at me i said i'm not out late i said i'd be home at 9 30.
i'm home at 9 30 to see the television show that starts at 10 o'clock and they pointed at the clock and it was 11 30.
So somewhere I lost two hours of time, between an hour and a half to two hours of time.
Now, if you've read stuff in the UFO literature, like that kind of thing is a telltale sign and that's what a UFO investigator kind of keeps their eye out for.
That's a red flag that something else happened.
Um, this was 1974.
I, I didn't know any of that.
So I was just bummed out that I didn't see this television show and I was really like annoyed that my parents were mad at me for something I didn't do, like I didn't understand why I was out so late.
So the next monday morning at school we're sitting around with my friend and and uh, there's a bunch of kids at the cafeteria table and I said this weird thing happened on friday night and my friend interrupts and said, yeah, we saw a Ufo with lights and everything.
Can I swear on this show?
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
So he said, 12-year-old boy, and he said, we saw a UFO with fucking lights and everything.
And I was, and I remember thinking like, I didn't see a UFO.
I just saw the sky turn orange.
I've since contacted him, and he does not remember the event.
He does remember that my mom was angry at me for coming home late.
So that is actually not uncommon within the literature, or the literature of like UFO studies, that two witnesses will have two separate things.
So that's one story beforehand, before seeing the owls.
Did you ever tell anybody about this that remembers when you told them about it?
Oh.
Like, do they remember you telling the story prior to the whole owl?
You know what I have is I drew a picture of.
So that story, my friend remembers that my mom was angry or my parents were angry.
But yeah, that's hard to know.
That's getting close to.
35 years ago, 40 years ago now.
So, but, um, so I don't have any evidence of that.
I do, I did see a, I was at a friend's house.
His name is Kenny, and we, it was a sleepover.
I was 12 years old.
It was probably right around the same time.
And he, he pointed out the window.
It might have been him or me, pointed out the window and went, What's that?
And we went to the window, and there was a, this is actually interesting.
We have a can here.
So there was a, like a coffee can shaped thing, and it was rotating at this really weird angle and, and sort of descending.
Actually, it was more like, It's more like, I can't remember.
Yeah.
It was descending and rotating at the same time.
It had like a pencil sticking out the top of this thing.
And we watched it for maybe 30 seconds and then it just disappeared.
Poof, gone.
I used to say the lights went out and we couldn't see it anymore.
I don't say that anymore because that's not true.
What I remember clearly is that it disappeared.
It vanished.
But I was like too embarrassed to say that like at the time as a 12-year-old boy.
So I said the lights just turned out.
I drew a picture of that that same night and I contacted the the fellow with Kenny, and he also doesn't remember it.
But he said his mother, he talked to his mom, and his mother remembers us drawing it.
He and I both drew it, and I still have the picture that we drew that night after seeing the coffee can shaped craft.
Do you have any of these drawings published on your website?
Yep.
All of them published on my website.
Let's pull up his website so we can actually show some of this stuff.
That'd probably be a good idea.
What's your website called?
Hidden Experience.
It's all one word.
And then the image of the coffee can thing would be out Kenny's window.
That would be the there's a little search box on the right-hand sidebar.
You can type in Out Kenny's Window.
And it should pop right up.
That'll be good if we're talking about things, whatever.
We can pull up some of the illustrations on your website.
And your friends that you were sleeping over with, do they remember this experience?
No, I only talked to Kenny.
Kenny doesn't remember it or he does?
He does not remember it.
He does not remember it.
But his mother remembers us drawing it, and I still have the drawing.
Yeah, you can see it on the right-hand sidebar.
Scroll down a little bit.
And there, you can search this blog.
You can just type in Out Kenny's Window.
Hope you just went back.
Go up to the right-hand sidebar.
No, down below that right there.
Out Kenny's window.
Yeah, there we go.
So there's the image.
So that's an updated drawing that I did recently.
Okay.
And then scroll down.
Can I just punch you on that, Jordan?
You can double click it and it'll show up big.
Okay.
Yeah.
So that's a drawing I did recently that captures what I saw.
But if you scroll down back to the blog there, there's an image that I drew.
There's sort of a strange motion.
There was an accompanying little dot of light, a pinpoint of light that.
Oh, keep on going down.
It should.
There we go.
There's the drawing I did that night.
So you drew this the same night you saw it?
Yep.
Within minutes.
Both Kenny and I drew it.
Kenny doesn't have it.
So, yeah, you can double click on that.
It'll grow up big.
Okay, that's fine.
So, but there was an accompanying little dot of light in the sky.
So you can see that I'm kind of, the dots are numbered one, two, three.
So when those little dots, it kind of went blink, blink, blink.
Those dots were not exceptional.
That would have looked just like an airplane in the night sky.
Nothing unusual about those dots.
But when that dot.
Like the coffee can was descending, the dot was traversing across the sky.
When those two met up, that's when it disappeared.
Wow.
So, ever since those two experiences, you've kind of been intrigued by UFOs, by UFO phenomenon.
I've certainly been intrigued.
I didn't start going around 1992 or three.
I got a UFO book.
I just bought it.
I said, well, this is a topic that interests me.
And the book was fascinating.
It was called The UFO Casebook by.
Randall's, the author's name is Randall's.
And then I bought another one.
I bought another one.
Then all of a sudden that was all I was reading.
And so that's almost whatever, 30 years, 25 years ago, 30 years ago to 1990.
Yeah, 1992.
And there's one more story, which I also did an illustration for.
I was 30 years old.
I was living in Maine.
In 1992, which is interesting, it was about the same time I started reading UFO books.
Distorted Reality and Dreamlike States00:15:41
And I woke up in the middle of the night, I was alone at the house, and it felt like there was a bright light coming in the window.
Now, we had a deer motion sensor light out in the driveway, and I kind of thought, What's the bright light?
And I sat up on my elbow and looked out the window, and there were five gray aliens walking towards the house, and they were backlit by a bright white light.
And I have an illustration of that if you want to.
Bring it up to you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Type in bedroom window.
It should come right up in that little box.
Gray aliens.
So the typical, prototypical gray alien is the one you see on like the snowboarder bumper stickers and stuff like that.
Right, right.
It's a skinny little being.
So yeah, you can double click that.
That should get big.
Holy cow.
So that's, and I did have a little dinosaur on my, I did have a little dinosaur on my, you did have it.
Yeah.
And they were, and so I looked just like that.
They were standing in a perfect line like that.
Well, you know, it was funny.
They actually were walking on the snow and I, I tried to draw them walking and it distracted from it.
So it looked like they were trying to dance or something.
But they were all in a line like that.
Like to try to draw them walking was a little awkward.
So they were actually walking, but I drew them standing and they would have been walking.
Now that light in the background would have been about the size of a washing machine.
You know, like it would have been perfect.
It was like a landed flying saucer, but that's not what I, that's not my memory.
And now, is it okay if I just go on about this?
Because this, oh yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So, please.
This, this.
Accompanying this, like, I got up the next morning and dismissed it completely as a dream, right?
So I, but when I saw this out the window, I looked at this thing.
This is scary, right?
This should have been, I should have like jumped out of bed.
I should have like locked the doors.
I should have like grabbed a knife and defended myself.
I didn't.
I heard a voice in my head that said very calmly, now is the time to put your head on the pillow and shut down.
And that's exactly what I did.
I just, I just rolled over and went to sleep.
What also accompanied that moment was this.
Sensation.
It was dreamlike, but I don't, but it wasn't a dream.
I don't, I feel strongly that it was not a dream, but it was certainly dreamlike.
There was a weird clarity.
There was a weird quietness to it.
There was this sort of head in the fishbowl quality to it.
I have since talked to many.
This was, this, this, I couldn't, I didn't have any place for this memory, this experience.
I could not place this.
I just like, so nope, not going to deal with this.
This was a dream.
Uh uh, I'm not going there.
And, But since then, I have talked to so many other UFO witnesses or witnesses that have had close-up sightings.
I talked to one woman, and she described seeing a UFO from a car.
She was like on a street in LA, and a flying saucer flew over her car and got right above her.
And she has some distorted time stuff with that event.
And she said to me, she said, you know, when you have two magnets and you try to push them together, they go click, and you pull them apart and you switch one halfway, and then you try to push them together, they won't, they won't, they'll sort of push against each other.
There's this kind of warbly sort of energy where they.
She said, being that close to the UFO, that flying saucer, was like being in between the two magnets in that warbly, weird energy.
And when she said that, it was like, she knows.
She knows.
That's exactly what it felt like.
Like that was the best description I've ever had of that sensation.
Within the literature, that's often referred to as the Oz factor.
It's not that the scene is quiet, it's that it's too quiet.
It's like all the sound is sucked out.
So I was seeing that out my window.
I had this distorted sense of reality.
And I have felt that a few more times in other experiences, but that to me was the part I couldn't dismiss.
I could dismiss it as a dream.
I don't really dream that I'm in my own bedroom, right?
I don't dream that I sit up in my own bed.
I'm always in some other place in my dreams.
But that night I felt like I sat up in bed.
I saw that out the window.
It probably lasted 20 seconds.
And then I heard the voice in my head that said, Now is the time to put your head on the pillow and shut down.
And the next morning, I never even bothered to go out and look if there were footprints in the snow.
And after this, did you do a sketch of this the next day?
Or did you say, like you said, did you put it out of your mind?
I did a quick pilot sketch of this within a year or so.
And then I did a more formal sketch.
I think I did that formal sketch in around 2008, that one there.
So you initially, you just tried to dismiss this dream as just a dream, something that wasn't real?
I wasn't going there.
Until you actually heard other accounts of it and you thought, oh, maybe I should revisit this dream.
Maybe it was something that happened.
Until I started looking into my own experiences.
So after that experience in the mountains with Kristen, I saw a real owl.
I heard a voice in my head that said, This has something to do with UFOs, a message, right?
So I got a message from who knows where it was from.
It could have been from my unconscious, could have been from the owls, it could have been, who knows.
But I definitely saw real owls and in my head heard the booming words, This has something to do with UFOs.
And I. In 2006, really started looking into this stuff.
So it would have been after 2006, after that event in the mountains with Kristen or those two events, that I started looking into these experiences and started really taking it seriously and looking into my own experiences.
Now, the question is, am I an abductee?
Given these kind of experiences.
And an abductee is that that's a lousy term.
That's the term we're stuck with.
That's an X-Files term.
And what I found in the last, you know, what is it, 14, 15 years of research, much of it feels like full time research, is that that's really common, that there's this elusive quality to it.
Very, very, there are some people who have like concrete memories.
Boom, I remember this event.
Right.
Like Travis Walton's.
Oh, yeah.
You've met him?
Many times, yeah.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
So he's a very nice guy.
He's from the West.
I was living out West.
He's a Westerner.
There's like a kind of stoic, quiet, soft spoken quality to the guy.
He's not.
The kind of guy that exaggerates.
Right.
Yeah.
So.
And he recounts everything up to the point of waking up on a table, seeing these beings in there, seeing actual human-looking things in there.
And then after that, wakes up on the side of a road.
He was gone for five days, and he has like 15 minutes of memory.
I haven't.
It's been a long time since I've read the book.
So.
Did he have any experiences with owls when you talk to him?
I got to be careful what I say because some stuff he's told me, he said.
He'll never listen to this.
Don't worry.
No, but I want to be careful what I say.
So, you know what?
I was in a group of people when he told me this.
He said, now, this doesn't mean much, but he said his son, as a little baby, as a little child, they had a big macrame kind of embroidered owl in the hallway.
Really?
And he said his son was terrified of that owl, that embroidered owl.
It was kind of a simplistic image of a bird with big black eyes.
And so, that's not much to go on.
But he was kind of like, he told me that.
And he, you could tell he was, you know, the wheels were turning in his head.
That was his only Al experience that was unusual.
That's the only thing he shared with me.
Yeah.
And he's very tight lipped.
He'll say, like, people ask him at conferences, like, have you ever had any other experiences?
And he'll say, if I had another experience, I would tell no one.
Basically, telling one experience ruined my life is where he's coming from.
Ruined his life in the 70s and 80s and 90s, but now it's becoming some sort of a more accepted thing in modern culture.
I mean, it's a thing that every news.
Channel every blog website wants to talk about because you know now it's profitable, now it draws attention and draws clicks.
And yeah, and but it he's he, if he given the choice, he never would have chosen this right in his life.
Have you have you heard his story about how he told he tells how he wakes up in the middle of the night out of nowhere and he's running full speed down his hallway to his kids' room and he says his kid is on a top bunk?
Oh no, he's uh, his kid is like they have the rails in the top bunk that sort of like keep you from falling off.
The kid, it's his son had slipped off.
and he had his neck wedged between the railing.
And I guess he grabbed him and pulled him out.
And if he would have stayed there for another 30 seconds, he would have been dead.
So he has all these crazy little, he has multiple similar experiences I've heard him talk about like that, that he can't explain.
So MUFON is a very dry, in the research community, there's like nuts and bolts researchers.
That's MUFON, Mutual UFO Network.
It's an organization of UFO.
researchers.
They are very nuts and bolts.
And on the other end of the spectrum is this kind of consciousness, love and light thing, and they do not mix these two worlds.
Now, the very conservative MUFON has a checklist.
You go to a UFO witness's house.
It's very this kind of stuff, what time, what day, which direction was it going?
Can you draw a picture of it?
Did you know?
It's very scientific, very well yeah, it's very analytical.
And in that checklist they say, ask the witness, have you had any?
Has your psychic abilities changed since your wit, since your sighting?
This is like the dry people this is like.
And then you know, like the people who like ain't going there, they're not going to, and it's right in there in the checklist is any.
Have you developed any psychic abilities?
And then also has it, has your spirituality or religious?
Have you changed your spirituality or religion since the event?
And so those questions are kind of at the core of my research.
And they're just a tiny little sliver in the mainstream UFO witness.
I would love to talk to those guys that saw the stuff off the aircraft carrier and off the California coast and say, have you had any psychic abilities?
What's going on?
Weird synchronicities?
Why do these nuts and bolts type researchers ask them about psychic experience?
Psychic experiences because you don't.
That can kind of weed people out, be like oh, this person's a psychic believer, this person's, we can dismiss them.
Now I think it's just the opposite.
I think what they're seeing is a pattern.
You talk to these people and they'll they'll, they want to talk your ear off.
Someone's taking them seriously.
A ufo researcher comes to your house and tells you you could, you're allowed to tell your story without being ridiculed, right so that?
So they'll say like, and all this weird stuff has happened.
Since my sighting, i've had psychic experiences.
So these are, this is what's common after a sighting.
This isn't, this isn't aliens in the house, this is just seeing a ufo off in the distance.
Your psychic ability increases i'm generalizing greatly.
It doesn't obviously doesn't happen 100 of the time, but this is a consistently reported stuff.
Your psychic abilities increase, your spirituality will change and you will often be plagued with synchronicities, like meaningful coincidences, and then um uh, poltergeist activity in the house.
So how are, like little aliens in a metal spaceship making poltergeist activity in the house happen?
You know, something else is going on that takes it out of the realm of, you know, aliens from another galaxy visiting us on their metal spaceship and puts it more into the realm of these myth makers, this ancient lore of something from that other realm interacting with us.
What do you think it is?
Why do you think that people who have these UFO experiences, who have witnessed, who believe they have witnessed UFOs, what do you think it is that keeps them having these experiences or different kinds of experiences?
What?
Do you think it sort of just like opens up something in their mind where now they're just always looking for weird shit?
Possibly.
Yeah.
So possibly that's one of the problems with the UFO community is because once you've seen the stuff and once you've seen the weird shit, like you're open to everything.
And like, let me tell you, like you're, it's like you got to be careful how open that door gets because there's a lot of people within the UFO community who are primed to like believe in conspiracy stuff and some of the nuttier, like fringier stuff that like I'm looking for conspiracies.
I'm looking for the weird stuff.
And I have to be really careful not to get dragged down.
these blind alleys.
So yeah, it turns a, people can get very vulnerable after these events, you know, to cult leaders, to, to like losing their critical thought.
Right.
And I have, I have done my very best like to, like I try to present myself as a credible person telling an incredible story or telling someone else, oftentimes other people's stories.
So I feel like I'm hopefully remain credible in the way I present this stuff, but I am presenting things that are incredible and oftentimes beyond belief.
Now, your question was, you know, why are they open to the psychic phenomena?
Well, the psychic question regarding the UFO researchers talking to these people.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Asking about psychic abilities or psychic phenomena.
To me, that kind of, my first reaction to hearing that is like, okay, let's see if this person believes in psychics.
Let's see if they believe they have psychic abilities.
Or let's, that could be on par with saying, okay, when's the last time you saw Bigfoot?
Yeah.
You know, okay, now we can just dismiss this fucker because he's, you know, he just believes that he's, Some chosen UFO abductee, and you know, he's going to believe in every conspiracy that we put in front of him.
I think it came the other way around.
I don't think they're trying to weed people out.
I think it's a legitimate question because what happens is you talk to these people, the witnesses, and they will say, This weird thing happened.
Like, my psychic abilities, like I feel like I have become, I now have ESP since seeing the UFO.
Oftentimes, people don't know how to control it, and it's just fleeting little things that happen.
Can you give me an example of some sort of psychic ability like this?
What would you consider a psychic ability?
Okay, so here's the story.
This woman, this has an owl in it.
There's a woman, her name is Maria Wheatley.
She's a crop circle researcher in England.
And she was with a friend, and they were going to go hike up to the top of a hilltop.
The hilltop is called Oliver's Castle.
Sometimes the hilltops are called Castle.
That's what they call the hills there.
So she is going to walk up to the hilltop, and there's a path.
Excuse me, there's a path in the woods that goes to the hilltop.
And as they walk down the path, this owl, a white barn owl flies right in front of them and both get the exact same sensation, the exact same feeling.
They say, oh, we're not allowed in the woods.
Like it's barring our way.
So they turned around and then they walked up a different way, you know, through the meadows and stuff like that, but not up through the forest and the trails.
They get to the top of the hill and they look off in the distance and there's this orange floating orb out in the distance.
And I'm like, what is that thing?
And then it gets closer and it grows big and it grows into this big size of a giant cigar and it's coming towards them and then it shrinks into spears.
So, they don't see a metal spaceship, they see this orange disruption of light, right?
So, they run back to their car.
Probing Questions for Scientists00:04:26
She said he was shaking so hard he couldn't get his car keys in the car door.
And afterwards, now beyond just doing the cropsicle research, Maria Wheatley also does tarot reading where she'll, you know, read Divination with a tarot deck.
She said her ability to do tarot readings increased exponentially.
Got really high and then it tapered down a little bit.
But she is now.
She feels she is, she is much more mystically in tune with doing tarot readings than she was before seeing the orange orb in the sky.
The guy claims to have gone to the bar, to the pub, and he could read everyone's mind in the bar, could hear what everyone was thinking, and it freaked him out.
It was not a good thing like he freaked out and that eventually eased off.
And so this, if you ask the questions, these are the stories that emerge from these kind of accounts, these mystical, strange stuff.
My problem with the whole psychic thing and the tarot cards is that my experience with these psychic type people is that most of them, at least in my experience, they're full of shit and they're hustlers.
Some of them are, absolutely.
And whenever I hear that kind of stuff, it just inclines me to dismiss whatever is going on around it.
Because for the most part, you'll get probing questions or the sort of guess about things based on your appearance or your life or whatever.
And they'll keep going down that way by sending probing questions.
Don't you ever get the sense that some of these people that are reaching out to you, they're familiar with your research, they're familiar with your story, so they know, if they come up with something that's similar.
To what your to, what your expertise is and what you've been studying for 15 years, that you know, it's kind of like the same thing.
They're just kind of trying to mirror your story or trying to come up with.
There's no, there's no real hard proof of any of this stuff.
It's just hearsay, right.
Well, there's multiple witness cases, right.
So two people see something at the same time.
Both people have to be lying in that in those situations, right.
But when it comes to psychic abilities, you can't really sure you can test those.
Oh yeah, you can prove those, you can test those.
How could you prove that?
You just do a laboratory experiment.
Talk to a Dean Raden.
There's a researcher out of California, Dean Radin.
He's written a bunch of books.
He worked for Bell Labs, I think, and he worked on some of the SRI, which is the remote viewing that the government did.
I think he was slightly involved with that.
Yeah, so you can study that.
It's not 100%.
It's difficult to study, but you can get results through scientific measures.
It's totally ignored within the sciences.
Except the people that are doing this are coming up with consistent results.
Yeah.
What did he find out about SRI?
I can't remember what the acronym is.
He was involved with an organization called IONS, which is Institute for Noetic Sciences, which broke away, I think, from SRI.
And that was started by the astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who was one of the fellows who walked on the moon.
And when he came back from the moon, his job was to land the craft.
On the moon.
Right.
And so after he did that, and like they're flying home, his job is done.
So he didn't have to do anything.
So all that he could do is just look out the window.
You know, you're like looking out the window for a week and you're out in space.
And he said he had like what amounted to a mystical experience.
He's a physicist from MIT and he had this magical, mystical, blissful experience, like looking out into the heavens, which makes sense, right?
Right.
Of course.
You're riding through outer space.
Yeah.
So he has it.
So and he came back and he said, like, you know, he talked to some people and said, look this up.
I had this mystical experience.
He tried to describe it and these people came back and said, it's called it.
The closest thing we can find is called a samadhi experience, which is a feeling of oneness with the magic of all.
I'm paraphrasing that poorly.
And he said, oh, okay, well, that's what I had, so that's what I'll call it.
And so he started this organization that studies that, and Dean Radin is involved in that organization.
I'm not a scientist, so I'm a journalist more than a scientist.
Alien Energy and Beeping Sounds00:06:53
So I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything.
I'm trying to collect enough stories to back up my the hypothesis that was, in a way, thrust into my lap.
Out of all these stories these, these owl stories, these UFO stories, how many of them have like video or or photos of these things happening, like photos of of a craft or a light or a being or a giant owl?
So you mentioned like four foot tall owls.
Okay, I got no pictures of four foot tall owls, okay.
So so the so I got a lot of pictures of owls.
People Get, send me pictures of owls all the time, right?
So the close-up owl like people say I've had UFO contact an owl landed on my back porch.
Here's the picture It's an owl.
It looks like an owl on the back porch.
The story is what more important is more important to me.
People will say like I was called to get my camera and go outside and take a picture in the dark of the roof and they do and there's an owl in the picture.
So, you know, I'm cataloging those kinds of stories and I'm trying not to weight them too much, right?
Because some of them are pretty like loose, you know, and but at the same time you see a pattern, you see that same story emerging.
Now your question was like, so I don't have any, you know what I do have?
I have a, I have an audio.
There's a woman, her name is Lindy Tucker, and she saw a flying craft, a flying saucer in her yard in Canada, Orton, Ontario, and this would have been the 1970s.
And she had an audio recording.
She recorded the audio of this craft, and the craft made this beeping noise.
The craft doesn't sound like anything.
It sounds like beep, beep, beep, beep.
Not that interesting, right?
But along with that noise, there's the hooting of an owl in the background.
Like there's that's like for me that was like gold for a little like oh my god There's an owl and a UFO now what has since happened is she has collected other people who have recorded UFOs and they they make this beep beep beep beep noise now that was there was a point in the 70s when that noise was kind of being reported that has tapered off not many people are reporting that steady beeping noise anymore,
but she collected I can't remember what it is multiple audio recordings of flying saucers and they all made this completely It sounds like a truck backing up.
It's not that interesting.
But given the witness testimony, taking that into account, if it's to be believed and nobody is, I mean, yes, there's certainly people out there hoaxing.
There's certainly people out there stretching the truth.
But I'm looking for the pattern in the overall stories.
Yeah, it's just like, it's hard to create a pattern when everyone's aware of.
All of the information that you're getting because you're publishing it.
All right, so so, all of it.
But yeah, not all, but a lot of it, right?
So so the people that are sending you these stories they're able to go and read through all your blog posts about hun.
I mean, how many stories have you published on your blog post about owls and Ufos?
Many hundreds yeah, so they're, they have access to these.
So it's, it's kind of like, but it's like yeah, I don't.
I I see where you're going with this, but my sense strongly, is that people are contacting me for another reason.
They're contacting me so, like you have a conversation with someone, they're like I need to talk to you, Like, I had this experience.
Like, I'm playing the role of a therapist.
I'm not a therapist, but I'm playing the role of it because these people are freaked out.
Okay.
So they're not looking for any fame.
They're not looking for any money.
They want to have a pseudonym if I document this stuff in a book.
These people are not at peace.
This is they are freaked out by their experiences.
They're asking me for help.
They're saying, Have you ever heard of anything like this happening?
I'm like, Yeah, it's actually what you've described is very common.
So I'm not looking for.
Proof in a way, I'm hoping to offer some solace to the people who are having these experiences.
Now, you talk about a psychic who you talked to.
Her name was Anya Briggs.
Yes.
Can you explain who Anya Briggs is and explain what your experience was with her?
Which experience did you dive into?
There was something about gray aliens.
She saw aliens dancing around you or something like that.
In your book, you talked about, she said, She could see aliens around you when she was looking at you.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, so she's psychic.
This is something I don't take this as concrete proof that there's aliens.
She said there.
I don't think she did.
She said dancing.
She may have.
I don't know if it was dancing, but she said she saw them around you.
Okay.
Yeah.
So she, this has happened to me more than once where I've talked to people who, so in these waters, like I end up bumping into, I did one radio interview and the guy, I said, well, you know, you talk to a shaman and they'll tell you stories about owls.
And they're like, shaman?
Who talks to a shaman?
I'm like, you write a book about owls.
Shamans come and find you.
You'll start talking to shamans.
So, so I'm like, because of the book and because of the researcher, I'm, I'm interacting, I'm talking with people who are psychic, who claim to be psychic.
And one of the things that I've had more than one person say, they kind of look at me and they've actually, I've had one person kind of look over my shoulder and kind of go like, there's, I say, like alien energy around you, gray alien energy.
Now, I don't see it.
I don't sense it, but that's the kind of feedback I'm getting.
I don't weight that too much, but I do, I am curious of the patterns.
And I'm interested, why is it always gray alien energy?
It's not.
It's not.
What is a gray, like what is the difference between, like, are there any other color aliens or are they all gray?
So if you look, so this is coming from a wealth of research.
Okay.
So about, and I'm making these numbers up, but let's say of the pool of data, you've got 100 UFO reports where people interact with the beings.
50% or so will be gray aliens.
The gray, typical gray aliens that showed up on the X-Files that come out of the mothership at the end of skinny humanoids, giant heads.
Skinny humanoids, big heads, bald heads, big black eyes, big penetrating black eyes, spindly long fingers, about three and a half to four feet tall.
After that, people will report humans, total humans, except tall and somewhat, oftentimes reported as being like seven foot tall and beautiful, like superheroes, basically.
And reptilians, like giant reptiles, which is not uncommon in the research.
I'm only saying what's reported, so I haven't seen any of these things.
Robert Archetypes and John Mack00:15:01
And then giant praying mantises.
And then there's a bunch of other things like robots or or light beings or balls of light and things like that.
So yeah, it's the data that's out there.
And there's a lot of it.
There's a wealth of data.
Serious researchers are collecting this data.
And the problem is, how do you, someone says, I saw a giant praying mantis.
How do you, how do you, like, I mean, yes, it's an incredible story.
It's a story beyond belief.
But you hear that story 100 times and you have to take it seriously.
Have you heard of the story?
I'm sure you have.
The Zimbabwe UFO encounter where the beings came out of the ship and talked to the little kids.
Yep.
Have you talked to any of those people?
I have interacted through messaging and emails with a woman named Emily Trim, and she is one of the little girls.
There's a documentary or there's some footage that was done by a documentary film crew at the time with Dr. John Mack.
Now, Dr. John Mack, who went down there, was the chair of the psychiatry department.
He was a Doctor of Psychiatry for Harvard.
So he's like, he's a credible researcher.
So he went to Zimbabwe to talk to these kids.
And the kids weren't, they hadn't read any literature.
They weren't opened and predisposed to or weren't influenced by, you know, science fiction movies and things like that, rural place in Zimbabwe in the early 1990s or mid 1990s.
So, yeah, so those kids were reporting.
One of the things that they were reporting was telepathic communication.
The beings were talking to them.
Their mouths didn't move.
They were hearing the voices in their head.
That is consistent near 100%.
And the message that they were getting was technology is bad.
Technology is going to destroy you.
Something to that effect.
I think it's a little more nuanced than that.
And this is a message that has kind of been boiled down from other reports, too.
It's that your technology has surpassed your spirituality.
And you are in a dangerous place.
That you are incapable of dealing with the technology you have in you.
You are in a dangerous place.
And you could ruin life on earth.
Your technology has surpassed your spirituality.
So, if we were like enlightened beings, let's say, right?
So, like if the Buddha was all of a sudden given free reign to run Google, I'm sure he would make very different decisions than the bottom line of what the stockholders would want at the end of each year.
So, he would make decisions.
So, we've got nuclear bombs, we've got poison gas, we've got all this horrible stuff, and we are a Territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons.
Exactly, yeah.
So we're, if you don't need to, like, you can just look at the headlines in the newspaper and realize, like, we're quite capable of wreaking terrible havoc on this planet.
Have you heard Robert Hastings' book, UFO and Nukes?
Yep.
That's pretty incredible.
Those pretty incredible accounts of the officers that work on those nuclear bases that.
All see UFOs hovering around the missile silos.
Yes, yes.
Okay.
I'm prepared to go deep with this.
Go deep.
Robert Hastings has come forward and he wrote that book in the, I guess it would have come out about 2009 or so, that UFOs and Nukes book.
And he made a big splash.
He did all kinds of press conferences.
There's wonderful footage, very, very credible witnesses telling these stories.
In a very stoic, dry manner.
Robert Hastings has recently come forward and he's a UFO abductee.
The guy in the Minot missile base, the guy with his finger on the key that could have turned the thing when this was in the 60s.
Which missile base is this?
Minot.
I think this is Minot in Missouri.
Missouri.
Excuse me.
Montana.
He has also, one of the fellows that was in the.
He's written his own book.
I want to say his name is Robert Solace.
Solace.
Robert Solace with an S at the end.
And he has written his own book where he has come forward with his own UFO contact experiences.
So there's the guy with his finger on the button says, I've had UFO contact.
He's an old man now.
He's like come forward with it grudgingly, but basically he felt he had to.
Robert Hastings, the author of the book UFOs and Nukes, very credible research, very grounded research.
Not like me at all.
Very nuts and bolts.
He has come forward with UFO contact.
When did he come forward with that information?
It came out about two years ago, and I can't remember the name of the book.
It would be right there on Amazon.
Him and another fellow both came forward in their books, and that one fellow worked at MUFON, and he talked about his UFO contact experience as another very dry UFO researcher.
And what did Robert Hastings have to say?
How did he come to the conclusion that he was an abductee?
I haven't read the book, so I'm going to be very cautious on that.
Okay.
Out of all the people that you've talked to who claim, what is the difference between somebody who is that you assume or you claim to be an abductee or someone who has been contacted?
Don't you indicate a difference between someone who you consider an abductee and someone who has just been contacted or has just come in contact with a UFO?
So within the community, some people don't like the term abductee, right?
It implies that it's a crime.
You abduct someone, that's a crime, right?
But people are taken against their will.
oftentimes taken on board a craft if these stories are to be believed.
And those people will consider themselves abductees or victims.
They've been traumatized.
Other people go along willingly.
And, you know, I've talked to people and one woman I know driving through Canada, all kinds of weird experiences as she's driving of flying saucers landed in the road.
Everyone in the car is suddenly asleep.
She's like the only person awake in the car.
human looking beings say, come on the craft with us.
And she goes on board the craft and it changed her life.
She changed her spirituality and she changed her psychic stuff.
So the people who go along willingly, let's say, those people are in the literature referred to as experiencers.
And that was a term that was coined, I don't necessarily think he coined it, but he certainly brought it to the forefront.
That's the term that the Harvard professor, Dr. John Mack, used, was experiencer to describe these people.
And excuse me.
Not experiencer.
Contactee.
Okay.
So excuse me.
The people who go along willingly are contactees.
The people who feel that they've been taken against their will often go by the term abductee.
And the people in the middle, sort of a more broad spectrum that covers both ends, are considered experiencers.
Sorry, I got a little ahead of myself there.
Okay.
Dr. John Mack, he's the same guy who interviewed the kids in Zimbabwe, right?
Yep.
And those kids will be considered contactees?
Well, they didn't get taken.
Well, actually, depending on what people share, that's hard to say.
I would say experiencer would probably be the better word because I don't actually know the stories.
There's like 60 kids.
I don't know each individual.
Yeah, none of them got taken.
There's only a couple that got close within like a couple feet of the beings they claimed.
Yeah.
And those kids were frightened and traumatized.
Right.
Now, did any of those kids, you said you talked to, who did you talk to?
A woman named Emily Trim.
Emily Trim.
She's an adult now, and she's doing artwork.
She lives in Canada now.
But she sees it as something very traumatic.
She felt it was very disruptive to her life.
Now, has her life since then been filled with any sort of strange coincidences or synchronicities or any strange owl encounters?
I want to be very careful what I say because I haven't talked to her specifically about that.
Okay.
So, but I know she does a lot of artwork and she credits her creativity to some degree to the contact experience.
Okay.
Now, so what you claim in your book, what is the reason for, in your view, what is the reason for these owls showing up in connection with UFOs?
Like, what is the connection between the owls and these?
Tiny scientists in these UFO saucers.
So they might not be tiny scientists in the saucers.
They might be doing some other role, but they're.
The connection.
Okay, so there's a term archetype, which means that somehow within our, like Plato originally used the archetype and then the term archetype, and then Freud, excuse me, then Carl Jung used the term archetype in more modern research.
And they both are implying that there's something in the human psyche, in the collective consciousness, that we have an embedded knowing about certain things.
Like, for instance, Luke Skywalker is the archetype of the hero, right?
So you go to see Star Wars, you watch a movie with Luke Skywalker flying his fighter spacecraft and with his lightsaber and everything like that.
You're seeing a movie, an adventure movie, but underneath it all, you are seeing the archetype of the hero.
And we know that, we can tap into that, and I would argue that we can tap into the archetype of the owl.
Like, I talk to a lot of people who see owls, and they almost no one says, Oh, I saw an owl.
People will come to you and say, I saw this owl.
It might have been on a fence.
And they said, It was so powerful.
Like, it was so striking to see an owl up close.
So, along with that.
Well, culturally, they're just tied with like spooky spookiness or horror.
And that goes right into the Bible.
There's parts where owls are mentioned in the Bible, and it sounds just like.
If it was like a spooky movie, they show up in places where they are like a set piece when within the Bible they're talking about like the wasteland, the barren, the desert, you know, these lonely, spooky places.
And they'll say there were owls there.
So that's exactly right.
That has been within our psyche for forever.
So, but if there is a deeper meaning, now I'm going way out on a limb with these ideas here, but if there's a deeper meaning within the owl, That we can tap into subconsciously, and they arrive at the moment of UFO contact.
So, here's this is totally what's normal is I get stories like this all the time.
Walking through the woods, I looked up, I saw an owl.
The next thing I knew, a flying saucer passes right over me.
That's very common.
So, the owl, they're seeing a real owl, and it is showing up in the context of a UFO contact or a UFO sighting.
So, is it a punctuation mark?
Is it like an exclamation mark?
Explanation is exclamation point within the narrative of their reality.
Does that make sense?
Like if the owl is showing up for some reason, if only so the person pays attention more.
That is so.
So you asked, like, why owls?
The simplest thing I could say, why owls, is to pay attention.
It's like a symbol to pay attention.
Another thing I say, it's an alarm clock.
It's like it's a ringing bell, like forcing you to pay attention, forcing you to wake up.
So what does that have to do with if it's a real owl versus.
I mean, how could it not be a real owl?
Okay, so a little bit ago, you asked about the four-foot-tall owls.
Right.
So there's two avenues of the owl sighting.
One avenue is a real owl.
And what is very commonly reported, and I get this a lot, is here, I'll tell a little story.
This guy at a UFO conference, people in a group, they sit in a circle like an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.
And they talk about, like, hello, my name is Joe, and I think I've been abducted by aliens.
It's basically the vibe of it.
Do you want some coffee?
Yeah, just a little bit at the bottom.
Great.
It's strong.
Good.
And so, perfect.
And then, so they, you know, they tell their stories.
They tell their experiences.
And I was in this once, and this was at a UFO conference where there's a big, like people go to UFO conferences and people who have had the contact experiences will show up at the conference.
And then they will often have a support group meeting at night.
It's closed to reporters and things like that.
So there's a guy sitting off in the corner the whole time and he's kind of like this the whole time.
And he, at the end of the meeting, he kind of raises his hand.
He says, listen, I have to ask people in the room, has anyone here ever had any odd experiences with owls?
And this guy like almost fell out of his chair when everyone raised their hand, including me.
And he was just like, so he told a story.
So this is the story that shows up a lot.
He's driving down the road at night and he sees this big owl on the side of the road.
It's like four foot tall.
And he goes right up to it and he rolls his window down.
He looks right at it.
It's right next to his driver's side window and he looks at this big four foot tall owl.
And he gets a really bad feeling.
And he drives home.
Later, he's a photographer.
Later, he goes into the woods and he knows there's an owl's nest in a tree.
So he's taking pictures of these owls.
And he's looking at the owls.
And he says, I don't think that was an owl I saw on the side of the road.
So he went through hypnotic regression to try to figure out what he actually saw.
And he said that nothing really emerged in the hypnosis session except that he has a memory, a vague memory of the owl wearing boots.
Okay, so there's nothing proof here.
Screen Memory and Tall Owl Observers00:11:58
But what is commonly.
Reported is this tall, four foot tall owl, and commonly reported.
Commonly reported, what is that?
Can you give me numbers?
What is common?
I wish I knew so, so I don't know what percentage of your stories are.
Four foot tall owls 25 wow, maybe 50, less than 50, more than 25, somewhere in there?
Okay so uh, so here's another story.
So so what?
The implication is that the gray alien is using some sort of psychic impression To distort the observer's mind.
This is so common in the literature.
And so there's a, and I've heard it many times.
Listen to the hypnosis transcripts or the hypnosis recordings where someone will say, like, oh, I saw a four foot owl on the road.
And then the hypnotherapist described the owl.
Well, it's bald.
It's got big black eyes.
It's skinny.
It's wearing a shiny uniform.
It's got long fingers.
And I don't think that's an owl.
It's very commonly reported that at the end of a UFO contact experience, the beings, oftentimes the gray aliens, will kind of say, you will remember us as owls.
Now, it's not just, so this is in the literature, this is called a screen memory.
So there's a screen somehow that they use either technology or psychic means to distort what the witness is seeing.
Now, it's not just owls.
It's deer.
Owls and deer are at the top of the list.
People see deer under odd circumstances.
And then after that, it's cats, raccoons, squirrels, clowns is very commonly reported.
Jesus gets reported every once in a while as far as showing up as a screen memory.
So somehow, how are they tapping into the mind of the observer?
I cannot even begin to imagine if it's technology or psychic means.
So here's another story that is.
and the screen memory aspect.
There's a woman I know, I know her well, I trust her.
She was working at a girls' school for kids.
She was like 19 years old, a summer camp.
And there were like buildings, and she walked from one building to the other, and she had to kind of walk through a trail.
So she wasn't like deep in the woods or anything.
She was just like between two buildings.
And she could hear kids, the girls playing in the background.
And she turns a corner, and there's a gray alien standing by the side of the trail.
And she looks at the gray alien, and it looks at her, and she hears this like sort of echoing, reverberating voice in her head that says, Owl, owl, owl, owl.
And she watches this being turn into an owl, like morph into an owl, turn around and run into the woods.
So, I've got a couple stories like that, one with deer.
So, I'm just saying, all I can do is report what people tell me.
Right.
So, but you hear your 500th story of someone seeing a four foot tall owl on the side of the road while driving at night.
Yeah, it's got to drive you crazy, right?
Well, no, I mean, so there's two avenues of research.
One is the screen memory, right?
So, if you take that, like, okay, so I don't want to say it's solved, right?
So, there's no four foot tall owls.
Like a two and a half foot tall owl is about as big as they're going to get any owl in the world.
I mean, that's a big owl, two and a half foot tall.
Three foot tall owl is, you're right on the line of like maybe, but four foot tall, no way.
And so, I mean, this is what people, people talk about driving up to an owl and it's standing in the road, it's looking over the roof of their truck.
It doesn't make sense, too.
Like if you're an alien from another dimension or from another galaxy, why would you just be standing in the middle of a, a fucking road.
Okay.
So let's think, to think about this.
So if you are an alien from some other realm and you want to abduct someone, and if you show up as an alien standing in the middle of the road, they're going to freak out.
Right.
So if you show up as something familiar that wouldn't be that unusual, an owl, then, then okay.
Oh, there's an owl on the side of the road.
You know, so a deer on the side of the road gets a little murky when Jesus shows up.
But, but, but, So the implication is they are using an animal that wouldn't be unusual to see, and that they are using some sort of screen memory, some sort of induced hypnosis, let's say, to get into the mind of the observer and mess with it in a way that makes them think they're seeing an owl when, in fact, it's a gray alien standing in front of them.
Now, I cover that very early on in my first book, the screen memory aspect.
I'm much more interested in the people who are seeing real owls.
I think that's much more fascinating to me.
It's much more mysterious to me.
I feel like it taints your research when you go to a UFO conference and start asking people about owls because everyone's going to want to talk about, yeah, it's connected to aliens or whatever.
I feel like if you go outside of people who are interested in UFOs, just regular people and ask them about owls.
Have you ever done that?
Just casually asking people if they've had any odd experience with owls?
Yeah, all the time.
Really?
Yeah.
And owls are such weird.
Weird animals like.
Have you seen I'm sure you've seen the videos of people on YouTube who have them as pets and they just like they like hang out with them, they like pet them and they like they like chew on their finger a little bit.
So they're very, very just like it's mind bending the way they move and this their their aura that they have there.
I, there's a funny ass.
There was a hilarious YouTube comment on a video.
Somebody said, owls, they're animals.
They have bird hardware with cat software.
Yeah yeah, so they can.
Yeah, Yeah, so, unlike other birds, most birds are sort of twitchy and nervous looking.
Owls are not because so human is scared.
They're not twitchy and kind of like jittery like normal birds are.
Like even a parakeet or a parrot or something or a seagull.
They're just.
What's crazy about owls is that they're like one of the top predatory birds there are.
Like owls kill hawks.
Yeah.
So owls have specialized eyes to see in the dark, obviously.
They hunt in the dark, they fly in the dark, they can fly through the forest in almost complete darkness, right?
They, because of that, their eyes are really big.
Their eyes collectively are bigger than their brains.
And then they also, their eyes are not shaped like a, they're shaped more like a tube rather than a circle.
So we have circular eyeballs.
They're a ball.
So we can look back and forth.
Owls can't do that.
Their eyes are locked straight ahead.
They cannot turn their eyes side to side like any other bird could.
And because their eyes are locked forward, that's why they have that really weird robotic head motion.
Because they use that, so an owl, and they also have very good.
They have wonderful night vision.
They also have very, very good hearing, so they can fly at night in the forest through the trees near complete darkness and they can listen.
Their feathers are specially designed so they're very quiet and they so they don't make any noise when they fly, so they can look down and hear the sound of a mouse on the ground while in flight and that's how they hunt right.
Are there any other birds or animals that have eyes like that, that are long and locked in place?
I can't answer that.
I don't think there are any other birds.
I think it's only the owls that have the night vision hardware.
That's wild.
So they did some scientific testing.
They had a totally dark barn, they took a barn, they made it totally light tight, zero available light, and then they could control the amount of light.
So they put light in that would be, to our eyes, undetectable, like lower than we could see.
And then they put an owl up in the rafter, and then they let mice go in the bottom of the barn.
And they said they had better results when they put forest duff on the ground.
So the mice were making the little crunchy noise, like as if they were walking across leaves and grass and stuff.
So they'd let a mouse go, and the owl in almost near darkness would get the mouse 100% of the time.
When they turned it to total darkness, The owl only using its ears can't see anything would get the mouse 75% of the time.
That's roughly the data.
Wow.
So they are, you don't stand much of a chance if you're a little mouse in the woods at night.
Do you think the owls have the ability to see into like another dimension?
Isn't that the question?
I have no idea.
I would love that to be, that's a great avenue of speculation.
And I had fun speculating about that in the book.
Like, it's, I have no idea, but isn't that so that if they can see into another dimension, That answers why they show up in haunted house movies.
That answers why they show up in ghost stories, right?
Ghosts come from another dimension.
Well, if any animal could see into another dimension, it would be an owl, right?
Because they have the most advanced visual sense and auditory sense than probably any other animal, right?
Any other vertebrate.
And their eyes are so enormous and they can see in virtually pitch black.
If any animal could see into another realm, it would be an owl.
Yes.
So, yes, so that's my avenue of thought.
Like, I would love for that.
That would explain so much, right?
So, can the owl see through time?
Does it know that the UFO is approaching?
Why do owls show up before a UFO then?
If that, given that logic, maybe there's some like the UFO gives off gamma rays and the owl can see it and the owls are curious and they're just like, wow, what's that thing over on the other side of the forest?
I'm going to fly over and look at it.
They're seeing something emanating from the UFO the same way that we can't hear a dog whistle, but the dog can and the dog can respond to it.
Maybe the flying saucer is like a giant dog whistle to the owl.
Right.
But.
Why do they show up before the UFO?
Yeah.
It's tough.
It's tough.
I mean, I want it.
It's a fun avenue of speculation.
Do you think it could be a possibility that the owls are trying to warn us about something?
Or do you think it's sort of like whatever the beings are, are kind of tapping into the owls and trying to make sure the coast is clear and make sure there's not going to be any witnesses or something like that?
If that's the case, then the owl is absolutely the perfect animal to do that, right?
Because they can see in the dark.
And if you're like, you know, if they, if the, so that implies that the alien somehow can read the mind of the owl, right?
So the owl flies into the location, they scope it out, they say, okay, you know, there's no other witnesses here.
There's nobody else on the street.
Everyone else is in bed.
I can hear that it's quiet.
If there was someone in the house walking around, the owl would be able to hear it.
If the owl is sitting on a tree branch near the house, it's not going to cause any, you know, it's not that interesting if someone sees that or notices that at night.
If there's a gray alien standing in the yard, listening to the house, that might, if a witness saw that, if a neighbor saw that, it might be pretty strange.
Grieving Families and Midnight Owls00:05:14
So so yes, so there's a, there's a way to think about that.
But given that model the, the UFO occupants would have to tap into the mind of the owl somehow to like, or do they, can they do they abduct the owl and put a little sensor in it, just like, you know like, like we would in a drone, you know, like a little video camera in the in the owl.
It doesn't seem too far fetched that they could.
They could tap into the to the vision of an owl, or tap into the mind of an owl, just to use it as kind of like a surveillance, surveillance cameras, little, it would be the perfect surveillance camera.
Yeah.
I speculate about that in the book and I'm cautious because I get dead-ended anytime I go down that road.
It's like, why would they do that?
Why is it happening so often?
What's really going on?
So here's the question.
So the overlap between owls and death, right?
So people, it is very common for people to report owls either most often after someone dies.
And I've got so many accounts like this.
Can I tell a personal story?
This is like happened to me.
Yeah.
Okay.
So this is like, I'm the witness.
I'm right here.
So my mother was very ill.
This is going back to 2013.
And she was, her health was failing.
And I was called to, she was living in North Carolina near my sister.
My sister was helping take care of her.
And I got a call and said, Mike, mom's unconscious.
They don't expect her to.
Regain her consciousness.
So I flew to North Carolina and I was sitting by my mother's bedside when she died.
It was a really powerful experience.
It happened at like three in the morning.
My sister and I were up all night with my mom and we were right there when she gave her last breath.
It was a terribly moving experience for my sister and I.
And it was one that like is like it's happened all throughout mankind's history like children at the parents' bedside when they pass.
So the next day, like it was 3 o'clock in the morning when this happened, we had all these issues.
We had funeral arrangements and people to call and stuff.
So we were all of us were like trying to sleep at the same time, trying to get stuff done.
So that night, I'm at my sister's house.
My brother was there too.
He wasn't at the bedside when my mom passed, but he was there shortly after we called him.
We're sitting in the backyard of my sister's house.
She's got like a couch on the back porch.
And her next door neighbor, excuse me, the woman who lives across the street, Ruthie, was right there.
And she's a real person.
You can call her.
She's like, she's as powerful a witness as any person could be.
This story doesn't have anything to do with UFOs, but it has everything to do with the mystique of the owl.
So Ruthie sits across from my sister and I, my sister brother and I, I'm in the middle on the couch, and they're right and left of me.
And they both were very familiar with my owl research.
They didn't know what to make of it.
And Ruthie says, you know, to me and my brother and sisters, Jim, Gene, Mike, I know There's an afterlife.
And I know because of an experience I had with an owl.
And when she said owl, both my sister and brother gave me this look like, did you put her up to this?
What's going on?
Like they looked at me like, what's going on here?
And I was like, she looked at my brother and sister and I had this, Ruthie, Ruthie, like, you don't know what's going on, but I've been doing research about owls, mystical stuff with owls, often surrounding death.
I want to hear your story.
So she says, when her father died, she was grieving.
And there's this nature trail that snakes around the neighborhood they live in.
So she would walk that nature trail every day, trying to process her grieving.
And every day she would pass this owl.
And then one day she was passing the owl and the owl hooted at her.
And she said, I looked at the owl and she said, are you my daddy?
And at that moment, all her grieving ended.
And the owl flew off and she hasn't seen it since.
And she said, I know in my heart, I know there is an afterlife.
My father came back in the form of an owl to help me understand that and to alleviate my grieving.
I have that story.
That happened to me.
And I have that story so many times in the research where people will say, like, often a child will see an owl after one of their parents has passed and they will talk to the owl as if it is their parent.
That is normal.
And I'm suspecting it's been normal all throughout human history.
I'm certain people stepped out of the cave after their father died and saw an owl and talked to the owl as if it was their dead father.
I'm not saying it is.
I'm not saying it is.
But I'm saying that within the human experience, we tap into that.
Well, this ties back to the whole phenomenon of the synchronicities, right?
Synchronicities and Plumbers Calling00:04:26
Like when you dedicate so much focus to one thing, it appears everywhere.
Absolutely.
Just like the 11-11.
In my experience, there's a crazy story that happened, crazy thing that happened to me a long time ago.
I won't tell all the details.
I would bore you with it.
But there was this girl that we found swimming in the ocean off the Cayman Islands.
Random girl.
We were diving in a boat.
No one boats around us anywhere.
And some girl was swimming in a dress, was in our boat when we came up from scuba diving.
And she was fucked up on some sort of drugs.
We don't know what it was.
She was on mushrooms or something.
And she had 242 tattooed on her ankle.
And me and my buddy, who were diving together, we both noticed her tattoo.
And now we see 242 everywhere we go, right?
It's like a synchronicity.
It's just like because we have that crazy experience that we were both there, we both noticed her tattoo.
Now me and him, I mean, almost weekly, we'll text each other these crazy things where we'll get a receipt that's 242 or we got some crazy call that was at 242.
I feel like this happens with so many things.
People that think they who have had one experience with a flying saucer or a UFO, they're all now they're always looking in the sky for this stuff.
Now, like people who have never had these experiences, they don't.
Most people aren't looking into the sky.
Most people are focusing ahead.
They're staring at their phones or they're driving down the street or they're staring at a computer screen.
They don't have time.
They're too involved in the rat race of life.
They're not looking at the sky trying to find meaning in something.
But people who have had one experience that kind of jolts them out of reality, now.
They're kind of like open to more of these, anything that resembles that happening again.
That's me.
Right.
That's you.
Right.
Exactly.
And that's, that's a, it seems to be the same thing with a lot of people who have these UFO experiences.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So, I mean, it's funny.
You go to a UFO conference, you can actually, this is, I use that as an example.
That's a great way to like, you get a bunch of people in the same room together.
All of them are enthusiasts.
And I would argue that many of them have had contact and are embarrassed to say it oftentimes.
So, what happens at a UFO conference?
You get someone at the bar.
And you get a few glasses of wine in them and like, oh, well, what's going on?
You know, like oftentimes the really stoic, dry researcher will say like, oh, you know what?
I had this experience.
And then they'll tell like, like the experience that sounds like missing time.
And so that's so much fun to talk about too.
And, and you were saying like going to a UFO conference, aren't you like predisposed to like meeting people with and like, yeah, that's why you go there.
It's like you go there, like the plumbers go to the plumbers conference and talk to other plumbers, you know?
So, but the, um, uh, okay, I got to circle back to where you were starting me from this.
The, uh, oh the the being predisposed to this so you can go to a ufo conference and say ask someone what's your number and they won't skip a beat and they'll say 10 10 or they'll say 11 11 or they'll say 1234 or they'll say 333 i get a lot of grief from that i if i like i've had some powerful like some of the most powerful experiences i've had are often punctuated i'm looking at your watch right now what time is it one 12 23.
ah okay i was trying to read it upside down i would have like Proved myself to okay, so I tried, but um, so uh, the um, try me in seven minutes.
Oh, well, that was just cheating, it doesn't count.
So, um, so yes, you're predisposed to like have these number things, but oh, as far as my own experience, one, two, three, four has shown up a lot in my nuttiness, and so it's like you know, like the the timestamp on a blog post, the you know, timestamps on on uh, clocks and things like that.
So that's I don't, I'm, it's this the way I say it.
I say, I'm not going to start a new religion because I saw one, two, three, four, but I'm going to take note of it.
Oftentimes in the book, I'll just say, you know, I know that the timestamp was one, two, three, four, and I don't want to, you know, I mean, I recognize how paranoid that sounds, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I mean, you're pulling on these little threads.
New York Premonitions and Numbers00:13:38
Right.
Sometimes the thinnest little thread will, if you pull on it and find the end of it, it'll have some deeper meaning.
Mm hmm.
Now you mentioned in your book you spoke to briefly with Jacques Valet about your story and you asked him about well, he has yeah.
So I contacted him.
I said, so after that thing with Kristen, I asked everyone.
I asked everyone.
I started doing my own which one was the first one?
That was the first sightings in the mountains.
Okay.
Your first experience.
My first experience with just owls.
They were seeing owls.
The voice in my head said UFOs, but I was seeing owls.
So I was shameless.
I was on fire with just like, I was reaching out to everyone.
I would call, I've made, reached out to everyone.
I found phone numbers that were hard to find.
I managed to dig.
So I got a hold of Jacques Filet.
I only talked to him through, actually, I sent him a paper letter and he sent me his address back.
Yeah.
So, so yeah.
So he's, so I said, have you had any odd experiences with owls in your research?
And he said, I had.
A story, this was in France, I think it was in France.
Men are driving down the road, two guys in a car, and it's at night, and this owl goes bloop and drops right out of the sky and lands in the road in front of them.
It's disoriented, it's flopping around.
And then they stop the car and they get out of the car, and there's a flying saucer above them.
So, the owl, so that's the only story he has.
So, they're a witness to what he calls a close encounter of the third kind, a close up UFO sighting.
So, he speculated.
Just in this written note, he speculated that something of the alien propulsion system must have disrupted the owl and disoriented it.
The owl's flopping around on the pavement, on the ground, just above them is a hovering flying saucer.
Wow.
So this is my weakness in a way.
I love spooky stories and campfire stories.
I am drawn to these elusive stories.
Open-ended stories that are that just are saturated with this mystique and eeriness to them.
And and if you've I mean getting as far into the book and my stuff as you've gotten you got to recognize that i'm like like uh, it's like cast a spell on me.
So i'm, I am searching out the weirder stories, right?
So do you know who Bud Hopkins is?
Yeah, so I I worked with Bud Hopkins.
Bud Hopkins hypnotized me and really yeah and, and what was that like?
I'll tell you that in a second.
So, when talking with Bud Hopkins.
Tell for people who are listening, explain.
Oh, so Bud Hopkins was a UFO abduction researcher.
He used the term abduction.
He was not shy about using the term abduction.
He's a UFO abduction researcher who wrote a series of books between the early 80s, and I think the last one was in 2011 or so.
It came out.
He was an artist in New York City, and he took on the role of researching UFO abduction and talking to abductees and documenting their experiences in books.
At the same time, Everyone who worked with him will say he was a thoughtful, sensitive, caring person who was doing two things.
He was researching a complicated subject that's beyond belief.
At the same time, he was trying to offer solace to the people who have had these experiences.
And he died in August 21st, 2011, which is going to be the 10-year anniversary in about a month now, a little over a month.
And I know that date because my birthday is the next day, August 22nd.
So talking to Bud, I said, do you notice synchronicities in this stuff?
Like weird stuff that surrounds these?
These experiences and he kind of goes, oh yeah, oh yeah.
And he said like, what do you make of that?
And he said well, like he kind of, he kind of made this hand gesture, he said like you know, this stuff, this stuff, and he kind of made it like like splashes everywhere, like one event, like little stuff just goes everywhere.
There's all this outlying stuff.
And he said my, it's my job as an author to try to rein that in and and and give you my information that way.
And I realized years later that like I'm The guy looking at those little drops that are like just barely connected to the overall phenomenon.
I want to know about the synchronicities.
I want to know about the owls.
I want to know about the weird premonitions.
I want to know about the psychic stuff that, you know, the core of it is the UFO contact experience.
I want to know about all that outlying experiences.
I want to explore that.
And it's elusive.
All I can do, I don't need proof.
I mean, a little bit.
Maybe some two witnesses see the same thing.
Maybe someone has a picture or recording and things like that.
So, but that, that, analogy of Bud Hopkins, who is a pioneering researcher.
He wants to rein it all in.
I want to study the stuff at the outline.
And that's what these books are, is all the little speckles that surround the core phenomena.
So how did he hypnotize you?
What was that?
How did you get in touch with him?
What made.
Did you want to get hypnotized or was he more interested in hypnotizing you?
What brought this about?
So he.
I used to live in New York City, so I used to go back and forth to New York City and visit folks a lot and stuff.
So he was working in New York City.
And at the time I was living there in New York City, I didn't have any interest in this at all.
But that was so I left New York City when I was about 30.
And then I was living out west.
And then when I was out west in Idaho is when I really started to dig into this research and dig into reading the books and started to eventually dig into my own experiences and do my own research.
But before I was doing my own research, I guess I had started.
That was after the thing with Kristen.
The events of seeing the multiple owls, which isn't that interesting of a story, right?
We saw some owls while camping, big deal, but it changed the direction of my life.
So I sent him a letter and he replied.
And I visited his house and he had, you know, those laundry baskets you get at the dollar store, you know, they're like big plastic laundry baskets.
He had that, it was just like these files and they were all old, like these old dividers.
And one would say, like, You know, close up sighting, one would say, missing time, one would say, you know, lights in the sky.
And there was just like letters and letters and letters.
And I'm like, I looked at this big thing, I was like, is that from last year?
He went, that's from last month.
So I've talked to other UFO researchers and I'll ask them, like, what's the proof in this?
How do you find the proof in this?
And I had one lady kind of roll her eyes and go, like, look at my email inbox.
You want proof?
That's the proof.
Like, how, like, I'm flooded.
I'm like, and I'm nobody.
Like, I'm right, this, this.
The owl research is way at the outer edge and I'm getting stories all the time.
I'm asking for them and I'm getting them.
But okay, your question was, what was it like getting hypnotized by a button?
Yeah.
So I wrote him a letter.
He got back to me and I was going to be in New York and I went and visited him.
And it was a year later that I went back and visited him again.
And he said, he was basically like, you know, here are the stories about the beings in the yard and stuff like that.
And he was like, I was considering hypnosis and I didn't want to do it.
So this was your first time being hypnotized?
Yeah.
And it didn't, not much happened.
You know what did happen?
So here, the story I told initially.
Did you go into like a no, it's very, it's very, I've been hypnotized.
I've gone to, you know what I did?
This is funny because this hypnosis in the field, like I'm on, I'm listed as total inside baseball here where you're like, you're on the outside and I'm trying to bring you up to speed.
So like the infighting and the snipiness and the bickering and the anger and the butting heads within the UFO research community is like, it's crazy how antagonistic people can be towards each other.
So within this, that field, like there are people who hate, hate.
Hate anything that has to do with hypnosis.
By using hypnosis, you're introducing false data, you're doing things like that.
You can implant false memories, right?
Exactly.
You can make an argument that.
And then on the other side, there's people who are like, oh, the only way to access the truth is through hypnosis.
And so I'm in the middle somewhere, which is a better place to be, I think, than to be a true believer on either end of that spectrum.
And so I'm super cautious.
Well, all of the most famous abduction stories, all of the most famous abductees, like Travis Walton, Betty and Barney Hill, they all have been hypnotized, right?
But Travis Walton, most of his recollection is conscious.
In the books that I've written, most of the reports are, like, I'll say 99% of the reports are done with, there's almost no hypnosis used in my books, a little bit.
And they're my own hypnosis that I use in but he's been, Travis has been through hypnosis since, like, multiple times to recount his stories, yeah.
So, yeah.
So, and then if you read Bud's books, there's, like, this, it seems like, 50% of the data emerges through hypnosis.
And what I'm finding is I don't trust hypnosis to that degree where I think it's the truth emerging word for word.
I think it's a mess.
It gets complicated.
For sure.
But the hypnotherapists will keep certain facts to themselves.
What was the how was I'll I don't want to give away too much, but I mean, there's some things I know that I won't share.
But simple things like how is the room lit?
This is actually someone everyone knows.
Like, what do you mean things that what kind of things okay?
So, like, so, like, what does a doorknob look like on a flying saucer?
Like, what's the insignia on the suit?
Um, uh, you know, what's the you know, is this the kind of stuff that you would remember after hypnosis?
Under hypnosis, you would you would say these things that that that would be consistent with other reports.
An insignia on a suit, uh, you know, what's the doorknob look like on a flying saucer if you're on board a craft?
Um, you know word for word the, the aliens, will tell an abductee the same thing.
Oftentimes it's very similar to what they told the, the kids in Zimbabwe.
You know i'm paraphrasing roughly, but your spirituality has far advanced.
Excuse me, your technology is far in advance of your spirituality and you're in a dangerous place, as human, as humans on earth.
So you know, hypnosis is like it's bud was Bud, was very ill at the time.
He hypnotized me and I laid.
I was on his bed And there was a woman in the room videotaping it.
Really?
And I had a blanket on me.
The videotape is not that interesting, right?
So Bud's like sitting there talking very softly and I'm like sitting, not moving at all, talking very softly.
It's incredibly boring to watch.
There's long, long, long pauses.
How does he get you into this state of hypnosis?
It's pretty, so it, I mean, it's just a very simple set of commands basically saying relax, you know, like simple things.
Imagine you're going down the stairs.
Every step you take, you're in a deeper state.
And it doesn't feel that different.
It doesn't feel, it feels like, I mean, like you're lying in a bed, you're relaxed, and then he'll ask you a question.
You'll say stuff like, why did I say that?
Where did that come from?
I got some stories.
But for Bud, the only thing that came up, everything that we covered was exactly the same from my normal memory.
From your conscious memory.
From my conscious memory.
Yeah.
No new information emerged except for a few little things.
And one of them was the image of the five aliens in the yard.
There was a palpable sense, and I talked about it.
It was like, it wasn't just, oh, yes, they're here.
It was almost like, Oh shit, they're back.
It's them again.
I had that thought under hypnosis.
Here's a question for you.
Does that make it true that I've been abducted multiple times by these gray beings just because I had a thought that said, oh shit, they're back.
It's them again.
And I remember palpably feeling like, this is so familiar.
This is so familiar seeing them out there.
Does that make it true?
I don't have an answer for that.
I could see being vulnerable and wanting it to be true.
And I could see being traumatized and saying, no, I reject that.
You know, I'm trying to stay somewhere in the middle.
And so I'm saying what I felt doesn't make it true.
Do you think this ties to the first time you saw that light in the sky when you were coming home from the football game, when you had that missing time, that missing two hours or whatever it was?
If that could have been the first time.
Let me just ask you this.
Do you believe you were abducted?
I am now at the point where I am calling myself an abducte.
Yes.
Okay.
So, you without a shadow of a doubt, you believe that you.
Oh my God, shadow of a doubt.
Now you've introduced that.
I got shadows all over.
The doubts are like the doubts all over it.
But the stuff that has happened to me has been so weird and so beyond belief that I have been forced to say, yes, this really happened.
Reiki Healers and Vivid Dreams00:04:57
So, here's the sticky part, right?
So, UFO abduction, right?
So, we have this pop culture X Files idea of a metal spaceship filled with little scientists from another planet.
Coming here to study mankind.
Why the owls then?
Why the psychic stuff?
So so here's, this is a.
So people come to contact me are?
This is a weird one for me.
People contact me, I talk to them on the phone, I get a notepad, I write the date, I write their phone number, simple stuff.
I don't take that many notes, but one thing I do is I write reiki.
Do you know what reiki healing is?
Reiki therapy is no oh, far out okay.
So um, i'm hanging out with the like.
I was you for a long time and I just got dragged into this and all of a sudden, all my old friends I still have a lot of my old friends, but all my old life faded away and this new life emerged.
And now I'm hanging out with psychics and shamans and Reiki healers and tarot readers and stuff.
Sounds fun.
It's been amazing.
It's been super rewarding.
So Reiki is a Japanese word.
I think it means like life energy.
So you go to a Reiki, you could look in the phone book or whatever, Google Reiki therapists.
There'll be 10 of them within five hours.
Reiki therapists?
They're healers.
It's a non, it's a form of, Non-physically, you don't touch the person.
So a person lays in a meditation table and a Reiki healer will, you know, like often something simple like stress.
Like, oh, I've been super stressed out.
I'm not sleeping well.
So a Reiki healer will go through these protocols and they'll put their hands over your body.
About a half hour later, say, okay, you're done.
And the person will go home that night.
And sometimes, not every time, the person will say, I slept great.
Health issues.
So anyway, I write on the paper, Reiki, I know to do this now.
Reiki.
And I just wait.
It's like, oh, I got your letter about UFOs and owls.
And now we're talking on the phone.
So you said you saw a UFO and had an owl experience.
Let's hear your story.
And they tell the story.
And the people are emotional.
They need to get it off their chest.
It's not like they're, if they're trying to fool me, they're, people don't cry when they're trying to fool you.
Like it's very common for people to cry when I talk to them.
I mean, people cry from trauma.
If you're talking about, you talk to a Vietnam vet or something like that, they're going to, they're going to, so powerful emotions.
So I would just wait.
I said, what do you do for work?
So I'm a Reiki healer.
How many of them are Reiki healers?
Okay, so that's of the people who contact me.
Don't tell me 90.
No, it's less than 90, but it's more than 50.
So of the people who contact me and have a ufo and owl experience that's the reason they're contacting me half of them are reiki healers.
That's a rough estimate.
You don't even even so.
So go back to our spiritual this.
I'm i'm extrapolating now i'm i'm speculating, right.
So the ufo occupants say, your technology has far outstripped your spirituality.
And you get these people like, I know a guy, he's a, he's a teamster, he's got tattoos, he's, he's like you know a blue collar truck driver.
Truck driver, he said he's had ufo contact experiences just one day out of the blue.
He's like, I gotta go, I gotta learn to be a reiki healer, right.
So apps, it's one thing.
If it's like it's some you know woman in Sedona who's already got the turquoise earrings and the flowy white gown and stuff like that, it's normal that she should be a reiki healer.
But the truck driver with the tattoos and the and the you know the blue collar job.
So I don't have an answer for that.
But i'm saying, And if they're not Reiki healers, they're doing some other form of healing.
Yeah.
So.
See, to me, that just seems like a big red flag.
What's the red flag?
Because they're Reiki healers.
They're like, it's the kind of people who, it's, you drive down, you drive down Dale Mabry in Tampa and there's all these little shacks open until 3 a.m. waiting for drunk people to come in and tell them their future.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But there's other people who are, I would argue very strongly that there's this guy that's there.
Those are the kind of people that, you know, want to believe.
they've fooled themselves and they want to make a connection with somebody.
I mean, so this form of therapy has been around for thousands of years in Japan.
Right.
No, I'm not trying to discount the history of the therapy or the credibility of it, but the type of people that call themselves, a lot of them are scam artists and a lot of them are just hustlers.
Okay.
So this is the term I use is like, there's a lot of people in this field that make my toes curl in my shoes.
Right.
So that's a given.
Okay.
But This guy is a down to salt of the earth guy.
He's not trying to fool anyone.
He's done a Reiki session on me.
I was healing from an operation, and I don't know whether there was benefit from it, but I was, you know.
So he helped, you know.
I paid him.
Humidity, Hillsides, and Landed Craft00:12:32
It was, you know, it was.
So I took him seriously.
He takes himself seriously.
And yeah, I saw, like, I'm saying, yes, there's people in this field that can make your.
Toes curl in your shoes at the same time, there's this powerful mystical stuff that exists within these accounts.
Okay, so going back to your first hypnosis, and you mentioned those five gray beings outside your window, and you recounted, like, oh no, not again.
And that's not something that you consciously remembered from this experience.
You called it kind of like a dream, like a very vivid dream, and you kind of.
What your conscious recount of that experience was like, okay, they're here.
It's time to go to bed.
It's time to go back to bed, put my head down, and just go to sleep.
Exactly.
But when you went under this hypnosis, it was different.
Saying, like, okay, it's happening again.
Right?
Yep.
It felt familiar.
So it's happening to you again.
Why do you think that this is repeatedly happening to you?
Why do you think they chose you?
How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go here?
As deep as we can go.
Okay.
In order to tell that, I got to tell another story ahead of time, the story of March 10th, 2013, which is easy to find online on the presentations.
I talk about it.
It's an event that happened in the desert of southern Utah.
To tell this correctly takes some time.
So I don't want to give you just the surface story, but I'm going to try to race through it a little bit.
Okay.
Well, we have five and a half hours till your plane leaves.
Okay.
So I was at a UFO conference.
And I was driving home.
The UFO conference was in southern Arizona.
I lived in Idaho.
You draw a line.
The travel line of travel is right through Utah.
And I love Utah.
So I wanted to take these little back roads and twisty-turny roads through like the Four Corners area, through like the national parks, through the sandstone desert, you know, where like they shot the location for the Roadrunner cartoons, that terrain, which I love.
And I did a lot of outdoor work over the years and I've spent a lot of time in that area and I love it.
So, this is like a deep bond to that area.
Yeah.
You spent a lot of your life outdoors camping and hiking and teaching mountaineering in Alaska and Wyoming and all throughout the Rockies and in Canada.
Yeah.
And skiing in the winter.
So, this is just another day for you.
This is what you're used to.
This is your sport.
And then what happens is I'm totally comfortable sleeping outside, sleeping under the snow.
Which is another crazy thing.
That's crazy sleeping on a bed.
That's crazy when you think about it.
Like sleeping outside with no tent.
fucking bears and rattlesnakes and rattlesnakes are asleep at night.
Rattlesnakes don't come at night.
The bears are like, you know, I've slept out in Yellowstone.
Anyway, so yes, it's so for me, it's what's a tent going to do if the bear comes along?
Like, how's that going to slow them down?
That's true.
It might slow a rattlesnake down, but so at this point in my life, 2010, I've got the blog.
I'm going to UFO conferences.
I'm completely immersed in this stuff.
I've got a podcast.
And Driving home from the UFO conference, it was a spot I knew.
I'd driven these roads before and I was like, you know, leave here in the morning.
I bet you I sleep at this spot on Highway 20.
I bet you I sleep there.
I drove over there years ago and I said, this would be a good place to sleep.
So I'm like, I'm going to aim for that.
That's where I want to sleep tonight.
So I, I, uh, sun's going down.
It's March, which is kind of wintry still.
So it's cold at night in the desert that time of year, cold at night.
So I pull into this little turnout and I, Lay my sleeping bag down in the dust.
I got a great big winter sleeping bag.
I got my pillow that I drive with.
I've got a pad, a big thick pad.
I'm right next to my car.
The turnout was great.
Like there's a spot I could, there's a little sort of dirt road.
And there were some places where other people had obviously parked there.
And there's some old campfire rings and stuff.
People had been there.
So it's not just like a random spot.
There's obviously a place that other people can go.
Yeah.
And it's like a little, it's a dirt road and stuff like that.
It accesses another dirt road and stuff like that.
So it's a spot that in this to out west, it's pretty normal.
Okay.
You get tired.
Right.
Just pull off to the side of the road and sleep on the ground.
You don't do that in Florida.
It's way too fucking hot and humid.
Yeah, yeah.
So this is like, this is, there's no humidity, zero humidity.
Right.
And everyone's Mormon.
So everyone's like, if like, that's like, everyone's nice.
So, so, uh, so I'm sleeping on, so I lay down to go to sleep and I wake up and I look up on this hillside and I say, that looks just like a landed flying saucer.
There's this thing up on this hillside, it's this big round structure.
And I look up and I go, that looks just like a landed flying saucer.
I think to myself, and, um, I've got, do you want, yes, pull it up in our pictures?
You know what, Tia, let me do one thing here.
Like, can we edit this out or you couldn't put this in?
No, let's put it in.
So, so, um, Go to my website.
The search bar.
And then just scroll down a little bit.
Oops.
And just keep on scrolling because I actually have a bunch of pictures that are all in one.
No, no, I won't.
Oh, let's try.
I don't know that I wouldn't know the title of it.
Just scroll down.
It's been within the last year or so.
Just keep going fast.
Just go buzz past everything.
Oh, no, wait.
You're on the old page there.
So just hit the top.
Go all the way back up to the top and hit the logo at the top.
Through the home page.
Or reboot it.
Yeah.
Reboot the home page.
Great.
Yeah, you can just go, go, go.
Yeah, it's going to be just really, you might even have to go to the next page, but this is going to be easier for me to find it.
Yeah, keep on going.
Just go all the way down.
I'll see it when it shows up.
Keep on going down.
Yeah, great.
Echo to older posts.
Older posts down.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah.
And then there's an owl I saw in the backyard.
For those listening and not watching, we are scrolling through.
Oh, hold it.
There we go.
Great.
Great.
Okay, good.
You're good there.
So now all these pictures are from the March 10th story.
So I've talked about it in an audio book.
Okay.
And so go ahead.
So there's the turnoff.
Okay.
So that's where you were camping.
That's where I'm camping.
That's a Google Maps view.
I'm an illustrator, so I tooled that a little bit.
And that arrow.
I made it at nighttime.
I made it.
I was a daytime picture.
I made it at nighttime.
Yeah.
So go ahead.
So double-click that image there with the thing.
So I look up on this hillside, and there's this round building up there.
And I say, that looks just like a landed flying saucer.
And I look at this thing and I'm like thinking, like, I'm like just was at a UFO conference.
And I like, like, if this was a UFO, this was a landed flying saucer, I should feel something.
And at my gut level, I should feel something.
Like intuitively, I should feel something.
And I looked at this thing.
I felt nothing at all.
And I rolled over and went to sleep.
I woke up a second time and there was a coyote howling near my head.
Now, I've slept outside a thousand nights in terrain like this.
And I've heard a lot of coyotes.
I have never heard anything that close.
I sat up, I looked around, I couldn't see it.
Surrounded by sage.
Do coyotes ever fuck with you?
No, they might.
No, I've never heard anyone.
Coyotes don't mess with people?
They're scared of them?
Not.
I mean, anything's possible, right?
So, yeah, I mean, they could get into food or something like that.
Right, right.
So, anyway, but I was not scared at all.
It was like this magic moment.
Like, I'm in this beautiful spot.
There's a trillion stars that's absolutely pristine.
Like night in the desert is unlike anything else.
Like it's way out in the middle of southern Utah.
No light pollution from anywhere.
So like this coyote's howling.
I look up and that thing is still there.
And there was actually one little light off to the side, which I, you can see there's one light that's not really connected.
And I remember thinking like, you know what that's like?
That's like at my house at home.
Like that's the lawn light, you know, like I'm in front of this house.
So I rolled over and went back to sleep.
And.
I woke up a third time and there's a bush near my feet.
And there was this bright light behind the bush.
And it was like this weird light.
It wasn't a car headlight.
It wasn't someone with a flashlight.
It was this weird light.
It seemed white, but it wasn't like a car, like you open a car door and the dome light.
It wasn't headlights.
It was like something.
I was like, okay, someone else is sleeping here tonight.
Someone just pulled in and they're sleeping here.
And I looked up at that thing and it was still up there on the hilltop and I rolled over and went back to bed.
Now, the next morning I woke up and I don't remember if I looked up to see this building on the hillside.
It was dark when I got up.
I felt like I slept all night.
I kind of go to bed early when you're driving.
And then I drove home.
It was about a 12 hour drive or so from there.
So 10 hours or so.
So from that spot early in the morning, like 5 in the morning, I start driving.
I get home in the afternoon to my house in Idaho.
And the first thing I do when I get home is I look up on Google Maps thinking like, oh, there should be a building there.
So go ahead and scroll down a little bit.
So there should be a building there.
And I went back a year later.
Yeah, okay, there's like, that's Google Maps.
And I kind of put the little, there's my sleeping spot with the yellow push bin.
And there's the spot I went back later.
So a year later, I went back there.
There's no building up there.
And that was too, okay, now you don't go too much farther.
Yeah.
So that building there, or excuse me, that hillside there is the hillside without anything there.
I went there.
Full daylight.
That was your perspective from where you were sleeping, looking at them.
I was standing in the exact picture.
Make that picture big, Jordan.
Yeah, right there.
So it looks like sagebrush wilderness of cattle country in southern Utah.
That's the whole.
Lots of it looks like that.
And that is exactly.
I'm very, very skilled with maps.
So that's exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
As an outdoor educator.
Yeah.
So I'm good.
And I make maps.
So go up one.
You have to.
And then.
Yeah.
So there's that's Google Maps.
So that was.
So I.
I used Photoshop and I put that arrow in and I put the little fake dots up there to show where the round structure was.
That is from the sleeping spot, it's 2.6, I think it's 2.6 miles away, which in the desert is crystal clear.
Right.
There's no humidity in the air.
So I've looked at homes 2.6 miles away on hillsides and I've measured on maps and you can see a house.
You can totally see the roof and see the house and the garage and everything like that.
Right.
So, but it wasn't there, which I sort of knew.
But in the moment when I looked up on the map, I was like, why wasn't that there?
Maybe the map was, maybe the new building's brand new and the map is only a year old, right?
So I made a blog post and that's what I did the illustration for a blog post.
So I posted that blog post.
This is where it gets weird.
Now, that blog post I posted at 12 34.
One, two, three, four.
Okay.
It's a little kernel of information.
If you go back in my blog and shortly after March 10th, there's the blog where I write about it real time.
Slept out in the desert, saw this weird thing, heard coyotes, light at the foot of my bed.
And then after I post it, I actually called Mufon and said, Have you had any reports from this area?
The guy said, Not from that last night.
It would have been the night before, right?
Not from last night, but we get a lot of reports in that area, yeah.
So go down one, and there's a little map there.
So I'm standing, just click that once.
So I'm standing at the side of my desk after posting this thing.
And now just, you got to trust me on this one because there's no one, just me.
Like, you gotta.
I standing at the side of my desk, I had this like one second click, psychic flash.
I see in my mind's eye this map.
I see that in my mind's eye.
And then it just is there for a second and it disappears.
And I've got my computer open.
I was just looking at maps.
I got all these points.
I got the point, the yellow point there is where, or the greenish point there is where I was sleeping.
Psychic Flashes and Scratch Marks00:06:19
And that's.
What's the red dot?
That's.
You'll find out to tell the story correctly.
So.
I knew there were three events on this, three dots on this thing.
So I knew what the green one was.
That was the event from the night before.
Right.
And I knew what the blue one was.
That was an event from doing this from my head.
That was from the springtime of 2010.
And I was camping with a friend of mine, Natasha, who I met at a UFO conference.
She's from Germany.
She came over to, we had a plan to spend time in the desert and hike around the Four Corners area.
That's the Four Corners area.
That's where Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, and Arizona all come together.
That's that little.
Spot where the state lines cross there.
So we had a great trip.
We spent, we were hiking, we just went for weeks.
We were hiking around.
We had, it was great weather.
It was magical.
It was this great trip.
And we were pulled into the little town of Cortez, Colorado.
And there's something wrong with the brakes in my car.
And so we're, so I like ask somebody on the main street, like, is there a mechanic?
And this guy says, oh, this guy back here, he's good.
He's the town mechanic.
Everyone goes to him.
So I go to the mechanic, little teeny town.
And I drop the car off, and then Natasha and I just sit out front for 45 minutes or something.
And he comes out, and it's like he's got his oily rag.
It's like a small town in dusty Colorado.
And he kind of looks at me and says, I can't let you leave town or you'll die.
And I'm like, What do you mean by that?
And he says, Well, the brakes are going to fail.
The brakes are like, I would be liable if I let you out with the car like this.
And it's like, Okay, what does this mean?
So I can fix it, but it's going to be about five days until the part comes in.
Five days.
Okay.
So the guy at the shop helps me get a rent a car.
Natasha and I have nothing to do.
Like, well, let's hang out for five days.
So we'll leave the car here.
We'll drive around a rent a car.
The rent a car was great.
It was easy.
It was cheap.
Little town, you know.
So, so that night, we camp on the side of the road.
We asked someone, where's good camping on the side of the road around here?
This girl at the coffee shop.
She saw this great spot.
You go take this thing out of town.
You turn left here and there's a forest service road.
You'll find great stuff out there.
Great.
So we went out there.
We found great stuff.
Set up a tent.
And.
So Natasha and I are sitting side by side, and we woke up in the middle of the night screaming.
Both of us were screaming.
I have, she describes it the same way I do.
I would, I've since called it synthetic fear.
Like it was, I have spent thousands of nights in a tent.
I've never felt anything like this.
It was irrational fear.
Here, go ahead and scroll up a little bit.
So I'm, I'm, I, I, oh no, down, excuse me, down.
And just, oops.
Oh, I missed it.
It's not in there.
Sorry, it's going to be out of order here.
I'll find it in a little bit.
So I, so I, like, Natasha, what happened?
What happened?
What's going on?
And I'm like freaking out.
And she's like, I saw a face.
Like, saw a face.
I don't know what that means, saw a face.
So she was screaming, like, and I literally, I felt like I climbed on top of her, like someone threw a hand grenade in the tent.
Like, what's going on?
Why are we both so scared?
You can talk to Natasha.
She says it the same way.
It was irrational.
And then we just, after a little bit, we're both asleep.
We go from complete adrenaline freak out to asleep.
And then, now this is where it gets very murky.
And I'm only going to tell you what I remember.
I don't think this is what happened, but this is my memory.
I had the total, I'm shaking just telling the story.
I had this elevator up feeling.
And I floated off the sleeping pad and I felt myself floating up and through the roof of the tent.
And I just kind of faded away, just kind of faded into this whiteness, this realm of total whiteness.
And as I was floating, I said, I have to remember this.
I have to remember this.
I have to remember this.
And then it changed to, am I on a table?
Am I on a table?
Am I on a table?
Now I have no memories of being on a table.
All I have is a memory of just this totality of whiteness.
So, I don't know.
All of a sudden, I hear Natasha's voice, which I don't think she said this.
I hear Natasha's voice with her German accent.
She says, Mike, you're floating.
And then I'm back in the tent.
And I'm, and she, so we both sleep soundly.
We wake up in the morning, the birds are chirping, the sun's out.
And I'm like, Natasha, what happened last night?
And she's like, I saw this face.
I don't know.
And so when I was floating, I also saw, a round floating pizza pan shaped disc, which I've called a mandala, in the tent with me.
Inside the tent?
It was inside the tent.
So she, I said, where, you know, she said, I saw this face and this is, to tell the story properly, it requires a lot.
I'm just going to, it's in the book.
I'll, I would sidetrack us and take a half hour to tell this part and then come back again.
So, so I get out of the tent, I walk around and I'm like, I'm like, like, I'm literally looking for a spot on the ground where a flying saucer landed.
There's nothing.
There's no burn mark.
I wanted to find it.
But later that day, I found a scratch on my chest.
It started at my left shoulder and went almost to my belly button.
And it was a legit scratch, like a cat claw, single cat claw, red mark, red line.
But when you looked at it really closely, it wasn't a scratch at all.
It wasn't like a wound like that at all.
It was a line of tiny little fluid-filled blisters that were kind of red.
Sweat Lodge Ceremonies and Surrender00:05:04
What happened is a few days later it washed off.
Like small dots almost in sequence?
It was a small line of polka dots.
Each individual polka dot was a tiny fluid filled blister.
Like half a millimeter.
Tiny.
And I needed glasses to see it.
And I took a shower a few days later and it washed off.
And both Natasha's a UFO researcher in Germany.
I'm a UFO researcher here.
When it washed off, we both went, we should have taken a picture of it.
That's another thing that's very common.
People like avoiding pulling a camera out.
Did you go and get a cat scan after this?
No, I didn't.
I never got a cat scan.
That would be interesting to see if they could find anything different about your insides or if they put anything in your body or something.
I've thought about doing stuff like that.
I have never done it.
My plate's full, right?
My plate's full trying to deal with this stuff.
We're like, we're stuck down there for five days.
I called a friend up.
This is the friend that said, you want proof?
Look at my email inbox.
Her name is Miriam Delicato.
So I called Miriam Delicato.
She spent a lot of time down there.
And she says, we call her up and like, we're stuck down the Four Corners area at this rent-a-car.
What do we do?
She said, you go to Canyon de Che, which is in the Navajo reservation in Arizona.
And there's a guy that runs a sweat lodge ceremony there.
Go do a sweat lodge ceremony.
Great.
Perfect.
So we went down there and I got his phone number.
I called him up.
I said, we're driving down.
He's like, we'll do a sweat lodge tomorrow.
And he runs a campground, and there were a few other people there that were going to do Sweat Lodge too that had asked him about it.
That's not the guy who went to prison, is it?
No, not the guy where somebody died?
Yeah.
No, that happened in Sedona.
Oh, okay.
That happened in Sedona.
Yeah.
No, this in fact he talked about that at the event.
Oh, did he?
So he said, you're like, this is how you do it.
That's some crazy shit.
Yeah.
So, but anyway, so it's a, it was just a, here, keep on scrolling down and see if I can find some more of these images here.
Keep going.
Okay.
Oops.
You went past.
Okay.
Let's, yeah, go back up again.
Yeah, it's not in this, it's not in this section here.
Look up, type in that little box on the side.
You can just go right up, back up to the side.
And that's irrational fear.
Oops.
Not, nope, not there.
One more up.
Yeah, we go.
Boom.
Irrational fear.
And just see if it comes up.
Yeah, there we go.
Okay.
So there's, you can click on that.
That's a drawing I did.
I had bigger sideburns and I was less gray than.
Wow, you are a serious artist.
I'm a professional.
I've worked as a professional illustrator.
Fucking great picture.
Well, I mean, I tried to capture it.
And so that was the floating pizza pan that was in the room there.
So it's off to the side, kind of, the pizza pan.
Yes.
Was it directly above you?
It was more, it's hard to hear.
It was more above, if this was perfectly accurate, which is not, it would actually be more above Natasha's knees.
It looks like above her chest there, but it'd be more above her knees.
So we're on the sleeping.
So we just, I float up, and that's when I floated through the roof.
It felt like I floated through the rooftop.
I don't know if this really happened.
It felt, you know what it felt like?
Magnets?
Being in between the magnets.
Yeah.
So.
And when you have that feeling of being in between the magnets that are kind of pushing away from each other.
Do you feel like that you're completely, you have absolutely no control and you can't, you just have no control over your environment and you're sort of like paralyzed?
So this is all of like 10 seconds, this memory.
I don't know whether I was paralyzed or not.
I don't have any memory of being paralyzed.
What it feels more like is the knobs that control your emotion are at zero.
Like there was no, like this is pretty weird, right?
So I went like, I should have been like, holy shit, what is this?
And I wasn't.
It was like, whew.
Every emotion was like, I was blandly blank.
So void of any emotion.
Like the vacuum cleaner sucked all the emotion out of me.
Okay.
So what point on this line map, where did this take place?
This was at the farthest east point.
The one in Colorado, right?
The one in Colorado.
Okay.
So we do this sweat lodge ceremony.
So the theme of the ceremony was surrender, like just surrender to the heat.
And there's four sessions, and it gets progressively hotter for the four cardinal points on the.
Compass, and the guy who led it was great.
He was drumming, he was chanting, he was funny um, and he was just encouraging us to let go surrender.
It was this.
It was a beautiful thing.
I'd never done anything like that before.
I loved it.
It was really I.
I did not get some magical epiphany from it, but it was a lovely experience and Natasha enjoyed it too a lot.
And then so that's a long story that starts out with the guy saying you can't leave town or you'll die and ends with a metaphoric death and rebirth ceremony.
Yellow Lines and Ending Worlds00:09:41
That's you go into the sweat lodge to metaphorically die, to come out reborn.
So I was there in my house in Idaho, in front of my computer.
What was the third thing in the middle of the map?
You can go back now to the page you were at before.
You can just hit the back arrow up there, I think.
And it should take you to, we were way down at the bottom there.
That's right.
Yeah.
Oh, there you go.
Go back up there.
So, Birch Railroad, keep on going down.
That's the map.
So, we've designated the westernmost point, which is green, and the easternmost point, which is blue.
Right.
And there's that other line in the middle.
So, just go down.
Oh, that's the site.
Okay, so there's a Bird Trail Road.
This is from Google Maps.
So, we were driving around.
I had been to this area before and I was like, I bet you can find a good spot to camp here.
So, we pulled off this.
You can click on that image of the Bird Trail Road there.
So, we drove off in this little dirt pull off.
This is a daylight picture.
And we sat there as the sun was setting.
It was this beautiful evening.
This was again with Natasha.
Oh, hold it.
I'm jumping way around here.
I did the thing that I didn't want to do.
Okay, so.
The one story ends, right?
So this event here is from 2011.
Natasha comes back a year later.
She goes to the same UFO conference that we met at.
We're there together.
And then we drive back to Idaho, where my home is.
And then to do that, you have to drive through Utah.
So let's take our time.
Let's drive through the West.
Let's sleep out under the stars.
So that's what we did.
So coming home from a year later, it's a year after the event in the tent, we're sleeping alongside the Burt Trail Road.
Here, I can go advance one, or you have to go back and.
And oh, here now, just let's not click that one yet.
In the sleeping bag on the sand, and when she wakes away, there's an owl hooting in the bush near my head.
It was so close and so loud, I don't understand why I didn't see it.
It's almost the same as that coyote.
Like it was so loud and so close, I couldn't understand why I didn't see it.
It's right there.
It was right there.
So a little while later, Natasha comes back and says, Mike, we need to go.
We got to get out of here.
Like, what, We got to go.
So what happened?
What happened?
She tells this story.
So when she tells it completely, it was a little panicky that night, but she says, you know, when I left the campsite here and just walked down the road, she didn't get very far, like, you know, a couple hundred yards.
There was, she said, it just felt so magical, the stars and the stillness and the quiet.
She said, it felt so magical.
It felt like I was sparkling.
It felt so magical.
And she's walking along, and then there was a light off in the sagebrush.
And she was like, what's that light?
You can see the terrain there.
It's just like, you know.
Sand and sagebrush and bushes.
And there's a light off in the sagebrush and she was like who's out here at that night with a flashlight?
And then the light starts floating along.
She realized, oh no, this is a floating orb.
It's a floating orb that's floating along.
So the orb goes, gets really big and goes poof, and then flashes and vanishes.
She's then she's scared, she runs back and that's when she wakes me.
So I am listening to the call of a great horned owl while Natasha is is seeing an unidentified flying object, a floating, glowing orb.
I asked her, did you hear the owl?
The owl's so loud.
The owl's so loud.
Noise rings in the desert.
She said, I never heard an owl.
So, here, go ahead, go to the next picture.
Yeah, so I had my map program, and I pushed a button and brought up the yellow line.
That yellow line is where I was sleeping on the the sand.
That red push pin is where I was sleeping on the sand.
Right about at the bottom of it was that road where Natasha was walking when she saw the orb.
So basically, just above the RN road is roughly where she was.
So pretty close.
I mean, we could have talked.
To each other easily, that wasn't that far apart.
Those are big bushes.
So, when I saw that yellow line and those three events lined up on a map, I was like, What is that yellow line?
That yellow line is the yellow line here.
Go up a few.
That's that yellow line.
That's I pinpointed exactly, I will say to the millimeter, the east and west points.
Where the events happened.
And the yellow line is the straight line that connects those two sites.
And that's where I was sleeping on the side of the road, hearing the owl while Natasha saw the orb.
So, those three insane UFO events that you experienced, you can draw a straight line from the location of each one.
Well, it's easy to draw a straight line between two, right?
Right, but there's three.
There's three.
And you can draw a perfectly straight line.
And it passes, not all, it passes.
Exactly.
Like you can, so like turn the clock back like 15 years, right?
So you had a paper map and a pencil, right?
So you put a little X on one spot, the best you can guess, put a little X on the best spot, you put the ruler down, you put a line across the map.
That line may be a half mile thick in reality, right?
You can zoom in with Google Maps, get that line one pixel thick.
It crosses where I slept in the ground while listening to an owl.
Wow.
So I cannot, I call this my confirmation event.
When I saw that yellow line, my old world ended.
And all that stuff about, like, oh, did that really happen?
What is it?
Did that, like, gosh, I wonder if those things were in the backyard.
Yeah, like, all that ended.
And I was like, oh, like, it's real.
Like, nobody could have, like, my subconscious couldn't have put these three things on the map.
My, my, like, how did this happen?
Like, the power of this crazy synchronicity, set of synchronicities.
If these are UFO scientists in a metal spaceship coming from another planet, how did they do that?
So I like to sleep outside.
I like to make maps.
I love stuff like coyotes and owls and shamanic experiences like sweat lodges.
This whole thing feels like it was tailored specifically for me.
It felt like the clues that were set before me, I was the only one who could decipher them.
But why you, though?
So why you?
What is your belief?
Okay, so I'll answer that with a story in a second, but just to make things weirder.
So the middle one and the easternmost one, the red and the blue one, Happened with Natasha.
Okay.
The green one, I was alone.
Happened on March 10th.
March 10th is Natasha's birthday.
Like, to tell this story correctly, there are so many strange little synchronicities connected like that.
So, that happened in 2013.
So, let me just, for my own sake, I need to say something.
I spent between about 2006 until.
That line until I clicked that line on the map and saw it like 48 hours after sleeping out in the desert.
I, my mind, I basically spent 95% of my waking hours wondering if I had gone insane.
Like, no doubt, I am not exaggerating.
I was stuck in this tape loop that was grinding away in my head that just said, This can't be happening.
Is this true?
I don't know if this is true.
This can't be happening.
Is this true?
I don't know if this is true.
When that line showed up, the I uninstalled that, I mean, the tape loop was out of my head and I could proceed forward in a way.
Like all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, life's pretty easy now without that grinding thing.
Am I going insane?
Okay.
Because this really happened.
Right.
Like I'm not exaggerating about these events here.
It's concrete, yeah.
Now, 2018, August of 2018, I go for a hypnosis session.
Who hypnotized you this time?
Yvonne Smith in California.
Okay.
And she, like with Bud gone and Leo Sprinkle is now very old.
So there's these key players in the field that are getting kind of old and have either passed on or no longer doing the work.
And so she's sort of the main person now in North America who's doing this type of research, hypnosis.
So I went to her office and we had met a few times before at conferences and she was, we had talked and she actually had my book.
She has the blue book, the owl book.
And so she, so I went to her office and I had done a session earlier and the same story emerged again.
And I didn't believe it.
Conference Rooms and Blue Owl Books00:13:50
I didn't know what to make of it the first time the story emerged.
What happened was I did a session with With a woman named Mary Rodwell almost a year earlier.
And I just didn't know what to make of this story.
I just didn't know what to make of it.
So I said, I want to explore the night.
This is the night here of March 10th, 2013.
I want to explore this night.
So she takes me back, the hypnotic induction.
I'm very relaxed.
I'm lying on her couch.
The lights are low in her little office.
It looks like a therapist's office.
She's sitting in a chair right next to me.
We got her voice recorder in the room.
I'm laying stretched out on her thing.
She goes through about a half hour induction.
Like simple stuff, like walking down a staircase yeah, and she says, where are you like?
Let's go to the night of march 10th 2013, the night you saw the round structure on the hill.
It's like, and i'm like, i'm lying there, i'm going well it's, stars are out, it's clear.
You know, i'm kind of like Doody do like like, am I under you know it's?
It's like, i'm on the pillow, it's pretty light, I can look up and see this thing.
I kind of have a clear memory of it.
And she asks a few more questions and all of a sudden I go and this is gut-wrenching to listen to at times, the session.
And I just go, I know it's them.
I know it's them.
I know it's them.
And I was describing the light behind the bush.
And then I say, I'm looking down at this big thing.
I'm looking down at this big round structure.
It's got lights around the edges, but I'm above it looking down at it.
And I think my body's still in the sleeping bag.
And she goes, are you out of body?
I'm like, I don't know.
I think my body's in the sleeping bag.
And I think I'm looking down at this big round structure.
And then there's this like, all of a sudden I'm on board the craft.
Can you scroll down a little bit?
I think I got this here.
Keep going.
Double click that one, the hallway.
Yeah.
So I'm all of a sudden I'm in a hallway that looks like this.
I did that as a piece of art.
Okay.
And so, so I'm in this hallway and the very first thing I see, I write a very first thing I recognize.
Now this is, I had the same experience before, but it was all disjointed and I was so freaked out.
For some reason, I'm much more calm than this time.
And so in this hallway, the first thing I sense is I'm not tall.
I'm not tall.
I'm, I'm, I'm short.
And I look to my right, I look to my left and there's a gray alien on each side of me and they're the same height.
And I looked on at my hands.
I got these long, skinny fingers.
I looked on at my arms and I got this skinny space suit on.
And I'm like, holy shit, I'm a fucking gray alien.
And it was like totally normal.
And Yvonne is just like, doesn't bat it.
Like, what happens next?
And the next thing that happens is I'm in this conference room.
And it's like an ugly conference room like you would see in an ugly, cheap hotel, right?
It's got beige carpeting and fluorescent lights and folding tables.
And I'm standing there.
And then there's this folding table that seems like there's like between eight or 12.
There's a bunch of beings.
They're all kind of fuzzed out, but they're what I can only call the gray aliens.
Now, I'm going to just say this straight up.
I don't know what to make of this story that I'm telling right now.
Like, is it true?
Is it not true?
Did it really happen?
Like, there's no ugly conference room with ugly shag carpeting on board a flying saucer.
Like, so I don't know what I was seeing.
So, but I was presented with this vision in this hypnotic session.
I'm standing there in the body of a gray alien looking at these beings.
And I'm like, what am I doing here?
Why am I here?
And I get this voice in my head that says, you volunteered for this.
Like, what is that supposed to mean?
I volunteered for this.
What am I doing here?
Now is the time.
So I'm like, what does that mean?
Now is the time.
So it goes back and forth.
We get kind of stuck in this little thing.
And then all of a sudden I'm like, just overcome with emotion.
And I say, I say, you never told me it would be this hard being here.
You never told me there would be sadness.
There would be loneliness.
You never told me that it would be this hard being here.
And they say, you volunteered for this.
And I, in the session, I am like so angry.
I am crying.
I am like, this is fucked up.
Like I'm here.
I'm dealing with this pain.
I'm dealing with these emotions.
You have no idea how hard it is to be here.
You're like, this is fucked up.
You volunteered for this.
And I get super emotional.
And Yvonne's like saying, what do they want from you?
What do they want from me?
And like they say they want me to play some role.
And at that point, like you can hear it in the audio, you can hear me gonna go and I I remember lying on the couch it felt like my heart stopped, felt like my stopped breathing, my heart stopped.
It felt like I sunk, like I was so tense, I was crying, I was screaming, like it was ugly, like how angry I was really and and i'm all of a sudden i'm I go from totally rigid with anger and fear, like then, like just totally relaxed.
And there's this long, long silence.
And Yvonne says, what happens next?
And I said, I think I'm back in the sleeping bag.
Now, before we started the session with Yvonne and I, I said, hey, somewhere in this thing, when I'm like in this vulnerable, unconscious state, you ask me, what's up with the owls?
What's up with all the owls?
Why owls?
She said, okay.
So I'm like, I'm back in the sleeping bag.
She says, Mike, what is your connection to owls?
And without skipping a beat, now, when you do hypnosis, oftentimes the answers are like really herky jerky and they're just a little whisper and you kind of mumble a lot.
She said, what's your connection with owls?
And I speak very clearly.
I say, the owls aren't important.
The owls are a sign on a door.
The owl is the correct sign for the door.
But the owl is not important.
It is the door that is important.
This was like seared into my mind after a while.
And I say, we are on this side of this door.
We are trapped in this tight little claustrophobic hallway.
And on the other side of the door is an infinite vastness.
And then she asked a few more questions about some, and I was like, I got to get out of here.
This is too much.
I got to come out of this.
So she brought me out of the hypnosis session.
So I, that was, it was, when I said I was I saw this.
It was super emotional the first time.
It was super emotional the second time.
It felt like I was watching a rerun, frame for frame rerun of the exact same experience with Mary Rodwell and then a year later with Yvonne Smith.
So I had two hypnosis sessions.
The exact same story emerges.
Really?
Word for word, frame for frame.
It was like watching a rerun.
You know, when you click this, oh, I saw this one before, and then you sit there for a half hour and watch it anyway.
I was like, I wanted.
So, but except for the part at the end about the owls aren't important.
So this is like for me, I feel like I'm on a therapist's couch right now.
Like I'm like, I spent a decade like owls, owls, owls, owls and UFOs.
It's owls.
It's the owl thing.
I'm the owl guy.
It's like, I'm my identity.
It's my work.
It's my passion.
It's this thing that's the, and then to have like me just blurt out totally calm and confident, the owls aren't important.
The owls are a sign and a door.
I took that to mean the owl is a symbol.
The door is that other realm.
We are on this side in this realm, trapped in this claustrophobic hallway.
That other realm is infinite and magical and enormous.
And we are stuck here.
And that's there.
Maybe when we die, we'll get there.
Maybe some, you know, so anyway, I can tell you right now, there is no ugly conference room on board a flying saucer.
And I can also say, I don't trust it.
At the same time, it was powerful, powerful.
So I'm in this place now where I'm trying to like lead my life.
from this place where like, was I like a gray alien in another lifetime?
And I incarnated here on Earth to perform some role?
I mean, that's the message.
And just so you know, that actually shows up a lot in the research when people go through hypnosis.
The similar story to that?
Almost exactly the same thing.
Shows up a lot.
And I knew it going into it.
So I could have confabulated it.
The file cabinets in my head are full of stories like this.
So I could, if I want to confabulate it, I could create a doozy of a story.
But the first book, the first owl book, the blue book, I started writing that less than 48 hours after spending the night in the desert when I looked up at that big round structure on the hill.
So I didn't put this together until like five years later, right?
So I'm laying on the sand.
I see all this weird stuff.
I hear coyotes and lights by the bush, and I drive home, and there's, you know, I connect these things in a map, and then I start the book.
Okay, five years later, I get this thing where I'm, where like the story that emerges, which I don't know if it's true or not, is that I have, I'm a, I lived some identity.
I incarnated as a gray alien.
I lived some identity as a gray alien.
I incarnated here on earth to play some role.
And I, and I started the book less than two days later.
So you asked me, why are they picking these people?
Why are they choosing people?
What's the, what's the meaning here?
People who've had these contact experiences write books.
There's a lot of books out there.
I've read a lot of them.
So what's, you asked, what, I don't, was it, given your question, the answer I would grudgingly give, it's like, why did they do this to me?
I was like, I think it was to write a book about owls because that's how it played out.
That's what happened.
And I didn't figure this out until five years after the book was published.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Well, it's a fascinating journey you've been on, man.
Sorry, I got kind of like the coffee was good and I felt like I was on a roll there.
So, yeah, forgive me if I got too like I didn't I don't want to be like the fire and brimstone.
No, it was great.
It's great.
It's every single bit.
I mean, especially combined with these illustrations that you're able to put along with your story, it's fascinating, man.
And it's mind bending.
And so you were I could see where you were hesitant.
I could see where you were like, ooh, this is tough.
Yeah.
So in this research, there's like a crazy line in the sand.
Everyone's got the crazy line, right?
You can be on this side of the line.
Oh, I'll study UFOs and be on this side.
And then there's the crazy line.
Well, on the other side of the line, I'm not going there.
That stuff's crazy.
Those people that talk about abduction, that's crazy talk.
I'm not crossing that line.
And everyone's got it, including me.
But what happens is that line fluctuates and it moves back and forth.
You talk to enough people, it moves this way, it moves that way.
And everyone in this research has a different crazy line and a different spot.
So I am pushed right up to the edge of my story, my own story.
I don't know what to believe it.
It's on my story is on the other side of the line.
So here I am though.
So like to to to Proceed forward in this work in this stuff in this research like people at you know people are disappointed sometimes they read the books and like we didn't come to much of a conclusion.
I'm like I don't know I'd be lying if I came to right right well It's it's just incredible you know all the All the stories and all of the, especially the concrete evidence of where you were on those maps, being able to draw the lines from one thing to another.
It's, I don't even know, I don't even know what to say about it.
It's just super interesting.
And I'm excited, I'm interested to hear where you go from here, especially.
Like, do you plan on going in any other specific directions from now on?
Do you plan on publishing any sort of more of your research, more of the stuff that you found?
What do you, where do you go from here?
So I, you know what?
I, so here, can I just, so here's the three books.
Yeah, show us the book.
There's the three books.
This is the first one.
Hold them up.
Who do I talk to?
Who do I point at?
Okay, so this is the first book.
This is the first book analysis.
It was published in 2015.
And that was the one I just talked about that started.
Here's the second one.
This basically is stories that were left over from the first one.
This was called Stories from the Messengers.
And this one is a collection of blog posts.
So when I talked about having my blog, I was like blogging about these experiences in real time.
Publishing Research and Future Plans00:03:17
Do you know who Richard Dolan is?
He's a yes, I do.
Who is he remind me?
Oh, he's a historian who does UFO research.
He's kind of the.
He's kind of the.
I've heard the name a thousand times oh, he's.
He's on every documentary end.
So so he published these books initially oh really.
And then he kind of backed, he's doing uh, some other work now and he kind of backed out, oh yeah, go ahead.
And so he backed out of the um the the uh, the publishing research and, excuse me, publishing books.
And he's now um, Got a website where it's a, where he's doing members' content as well as podcasting and things like that, so similar to what you're doing, okay.
And but he, he's like, for a while, he was like the guy who would call up at like in the middle of the night, like, Oh, like, oh, really?
Like, what do I do?
What do I do?
He's like, you got to do a memoir.
You got to do your memoir.
And I thought about it and I was like, I already did the memoir.
It's all in the blog.
It's all in real time.
So these stories that I was just sharing, all those are blog post by blog post.
You can read them like the day after I wrote those stories.
So instead of saying 10 years ago, I had this experience, some of them are obviously the stuff when I was a kid, but I'm also talking about my emotions and stuff like that.
Now, what I will say is that the first two books with the owls on the cover are more for a general audience.
By the way, just to point out, it's no surprise, but a lot of book covers really suck.
These book covers are beautiful.
Oh, I did these.
I was a um, I was an art director.
I was like I was like no one's doing my book cover like i'm doing it.
They're amazing.
Yeah, so there's a lot of shitty book covers out there and I can, I appreciate these ones.
Yes, so so the my, my logic in creating these was, there's a lot of shitty book covers out there and i'm not gonna, i'm not gonna be one of the ones.
So I wanted, I wanted to make a nice book cover for these books.
Yeah so, thank you.
Thank you, that means a lot to me because I was like, No doubt.
I went full on like, I want these to be nice to look at.
So the third one, which is called Hidden Experience, which is the name of the blog, honestly, that's not for everyone.
That's like way on the other side of the crazy line for most folks.
But it is my own angst is right in there.
Like it's a little bit, like I think I gush too much at times.
But people who have had the experience get a hold of me and said, I read your book, that third book, and thank you for writing it because it helped me a lot.
Wow.
And that means a lot to me.
So I get that kind of feedback and those kind of letters, and it means a lot to me.
Wow.
Well, Mike, I think we've covered pretty much everything we possibly can.
Where can people find your books?
Where can they buy your books?
And where can they contact you?
You can get the books on Amazon.
Easy enough.
Just type in my name.
The first book is called The Messengers.
If you click on one, the rest of the series just shows up.
If you want to get a hold of me, you can get to my website.
You know what you can do is you can type UFOs Owls, and I'm the first thing that comes up.
It's better to search for it than to just type it in directly.
It's fewer letters.
Yeah.
It's only six letters.
So you can, yeah.
And, but you can go to mikeclellan.com and that will take you to my blog.
And that'll also link you up to the other sites where you can get the books and things.