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Oct. 6, 2025 - Dinesh D'Souza
55:23
SPEAKING THROUGH THE STONES Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep1183
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The revival of an ancient conflict recorded in the Bible.
The nation of Israel is a resurrected nation.
What if there was gonna be a resurrection of another people, an enemy people of Israel?
The Dragon's Prophecy in Theaters October 6th and 8th.
Streaming and DVDs available October 9th.
Get the film at the Dragon's Prophecy Film.com.
Coming up, opening day for the Dragon's Prophecy, I'll tell you what that means to me.
I'm also going to relate the film to Trump's peace plan for Gaza and some goings on with Mr. Tucker Carlson.
I'm also going to address the charge.
I'm doing all of this for a Mossad paycheck of seven thousand dollars.
Eric Mataxis, who's featured in the film, is going to join me.
We're going to talk about Jesus, um, Jesus' Jewishness, and we're also going to talk about biblical archaeology.
Hey, if you're watching an X Rumble or YouTube, uh listening on Apple or Spotify, please subscribe to my channel.
Hit the subscribe, the follow, the notifications button, I'd appreciate it.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
Music by Ben Thede.
America needs this voice.
The times are crazy in a time of confusion, division, and lies.
We need a brave voice of reason, understanding and truth.
This is the Dinesh de Susa podcast.
Well, it's here, opening day of the Dragon's Prophecy, and having now been around this block making films eight or nine times, you have a certain sense of just nervous electricity about it.
You've worked on a project, you finally uh try to do your best to make it as good as possible, and you pay attention to details.
And there are many aspects to making a film.
You have to do the legal work and you have to uh create the LLC and you have to raise investment money and you have to go produce the film, and then you have to market it.
And I think we've done all those things and we've done them well.
And now the film is kind of like our offering to the public.
It's out there, it's in theaters tonight.
Uh again on Wednesday.
And um I'm just uh waiting to see how it's received.
I put out an invitation on Twitter this uh on X this morning just saying, hey, you know what?
If you don't like Jews, if you don't like Israel, go see the movie.
Uh and genuinely I want to hear from you.
I want to get your honest feedback.
Go with an open mind.
Just watch, think, listen, and um and see if it helps you to maybe reformulate, rethink, re-examine.
But if you love Israel and if you believe that the old testament is joined to the new, both are legitimate parts of the Bible.
The promises of God are not retracted or revoked, uh, there's no abrogation.
Uh, but rather there's continuity.
There's fulfillment.
Jesus uh is a Jew who fulfills the original covenant and thus creates A new one, uh, which spiritually does replace, by the way, the old one, but it doesn't mean that the land promises of God to the Jews are thereby taken back.
Uh they can't be taken back because when you give something, any kind of a gift, you either give it or you don't.
You either give it in perpetuity or not.
Otherwise, it's not a gift, it's a conditional.
I'm letting you have the use of it at my discretion.
If you misbehave, I'm gonna take it back.
It was never yours to begin with.
So can we as Christians say God never gave that land at all to Abraham and his descendants?
Come on.
That is uh that is uh strictly contradictory to to what is in the Bible.
Now, the film backed uh in theaters tonight on Wednesday, and uh I want you to see it if you can in the theater.
Uh look, the theater's starting to fill up, so move quickly, get your tickets.
Uh and you can't go to the theaters and get them.
I said this before, but still you have some people, well, Dunesh, you know, I've looked on Fandango.
You can't buy it on Fandango.
The only place to buy tickets, the only place is the website.
The Dragons Floral, the Dragons Prophecyfilm.com.
Go there, enter your zip code.
It will show you immediately the theater's playing near you.
Buy your tickets, take your family, take people you know, go with your Bible study, go with your conservative group, uh, tell church members to meet you there.
It's gonna be great.
It there's nothing like watching this with like-minded conservatives and Christians in the theater.
Those who have seen my earlier films know that they they have a peculiar effect on people.
It's not uncommon.
It's in fact normal for the whole theater to stand up and wildly applaud at the end.
Uh, that's because these films are made for that kind of cinematic experience with soaring music and um and uh unforgettable scenes.
So see it in the theater if you if you possibly can.
Now, we live at a time when some people can't uh and so they want to watch at home, and that's fine starting Thursday, which is October 9th.
The film becomes available on streaming.
It's on multiple platforms, but I'll name the two main ones.
Salem Now.
Salem is our media partner for the film.
You can go to Salemnow.com.
You can connect to Salem now from the website.
Uh, and it's also going to be heavily promoted on Rumble.
So you can go on the Rumble platform.
Uh, you can essentially do a pay-per-view.
You just buy the streaming rights of the film, click, watch.
So it's very exciting.
And um, and I'm not gonna in the end tell you which way to see it.
I would prefer you see it in the theater, but it's completely your call.
By the way, you can order DVDs.
Uh, I just brought my DVD and I'll I'm gonna wave it uh a little bit later.
Uh actually, Debbie, you're coming to show okay, pass it over here.
Um here is here's what it looks like.
Super cool.
Um, and these DVDs, they're they're ready to go, and they will start landing in your mailbox.
But you need to pre-order now so we can kind of get it out to you, and the DVDs will will start making their way to you and start arriving on Thursday and um and um beyond.
Now, I was trending on Twitter this morning because of a post I did on Tucker Carlson.
Uh, and I want to address this Tucker phenomenon a little more directly because um that you know, there are people I know and trust who've said, don't get into it with Tucker.
You know, it's um he has a big following, he's very mean-spirited.
And uh, but let me tell you why I'm doing it and why I think it's actually important to do.
Um Tucker has been sort of at this now for a long time, and as you know, I've essentially held my tongue, said nothing about it.
Uh partly because I kind of was sort of reluctant, right?
Tucker and I did this speaking tour last year.
I'm like, I don't want to do anything that is that is in any way going to like fracture MAGA.
But then it occurred to me he's doing that already.
He's driving a wedge right in the middle of MAGA, and he's doing it more than anybody else.
I mean, Candace is sort of a uh Candace is basically like running her own freak show.
Uh and it I grant it's an it's an interesting freak show.
She's a very attractive person.
She's uh she's got a sort of um almost a mesmerizing insanity about her, and people are sort of transfixed.
They're like, you know, I mean, think about it.
It's a little bit like um, you know, if you if you're walking, you're driving on the street and you see seven dogs all like prancing together in line on their hind legs.
It's fascinating.
You know, you kind of want to pull over and watch.
Uh Debbie's warning me from the sidelines.
Tanashi's analogies are running away with you.
Well, all right, I think you get the point.
Uh with Candace, it's a little bit more of a like a like a spectacle.
Uh, and and the other people are just too downright weird to have to even bring them up.
But Tucker has this kind of, you know, he's got this our shucks, you know, this pink cheeks, this kind of uh all-American manner, and as a result, a lot of people, not so much older people, because older people are a little wiser, they sort of see through this, you know, the ventriloquist routine, the performance artistry, the the projecting your views onto somebody else, asking leading questions and then acting like major epiphanies are coming your way, even though you pick the guest because you know exactly what he's gonna say.
So this whole sort of shtick uh is very transparent to people who are kind of wise to the ways of the world.
But to you, a lot of young people, it's like, wow, you know, uh, and so they get blown away.
And and here, this is sort of most of what has drawn me into all this, is I begin to realize that if Sharia comes to America, it's not gonna look like Osama bin Laden.
It's going to look like Mam Dani.
It's going to look like Tucker.
It's going to be advanced by people born in America who don't have much of an American accent, Mom Dani, uh, people who are pretty suave, people who know how to make social media videos, Mam Dani.
Uh, or people on our own side.
I mean, remember the scene in The Godfather where the Godfather goes, you know, when the when the betrayal comes, it's gonna be someone we really trust.
That's where we are, guys.
Uh that's the truth of the matter.
And um, and I want to emphasize that how bad all of this is for MAGA.
Forget about whether it's good or bad for Israel, it's obviously bad for Israel.
Forget about whether it's in the national interest of the United States.
I'm gonna put that aside for a moment.
I'm just going to focus on the impact on of all this on MAGA.
And this is the primary reason why I think it's important for me to speak out and call out people, even somewhat reluctantly by name.
Now, MAGA is on the march.
Uh, we're making incredible progress.
So let's start with this.
In the Charlie Kirk case, it's very obvious that you have these sort of Antifa-related trans-related violent networks that are plotting all sorts of mayhem.
They go to training camps, uh, they are apostles of violence.
Some of them participate directly, sometimes they have legal helpers, they have people who put up bail money for them.
And in the case of the Charlie Kirk assassination, it appears to be a sort of a trans ring who at the very least seems to have known about it in advance.
The shooter himself, it seems the case seems strong from what I know.
Namely, that you have this guy, you can see him approaching the venue.
He's got evidently a rifle that is stuck in his pants.
You can actually see him limping.
Uh, you then have video of him running away.
Uh, and uh they've got his fingerprints, they've evidently got his DNA.
I'm getting all of this from the FBI itself.
Uh, I've also read the charging documents.
So it seems to me they've got a strong case.
And just as we have a uh not only a case, but a rationale for going after Antifa and going after these trans networks, along come people from our own side, saying, nah, it's this is a um, this is a put up job.
No, they got the wrong guy.
This guy's a Patsy.
Um, the real shooter was like a Mossad agent, or the real shooter is somehow Israel.
Israel did it.
All right.
This is quite an astounding thing to say.
Do you have any evidence for it?
Do you have any video?
Do you have any intercepted messages?
Uh do you have any DNA?
Uh, do you have any footprints?
Answer, no, no, no, no, and no.
We have nothing.
We are just going to put the idea out there.
And this is basically what I'm finding is the MO, not just of Tucker and of Candace, but their followers.
Dinesh, you really must be getting $7,000.
Debbie and I will talk a little bit more about this later this week.
The $7,000 nonsense.
But my point is prove it.
Forget the 7,000.
Prove that Debbie and I have gotten a single penny from Israel.
You can't do it.
Why?
Because we haven't.
I think as many of you know, we give money to biblical archaeology in Israel.
We've been doing it since we first experienced all this in 2022.
So we've been doing it for three years.
We intend to continue.
So to put it somewhat differently, we are not an Israel's payroll for a single shekel.
If we have to uh if the truth is to be told, it's really the other way.
Israel is kind of on our payroll, if you if you know what know what I mean.
Um so stop with this nonsense.
What I find remarkable is that people feel confident in the in apparently if this is considered legit in their circles to just make stuff up.
And when I said to someone, I've, you know, I've made multiple movies, my movies have made tens of millions of dollars in the box office.
You really think I'm gonna sell out for seven grand?
Then he goes, well, maybe you're getting a hundred million dollars.
I'm like, prove it.
Prove it.
Uh because uh Debbie's like, wait, you've been holding out on me.
Where's that hundred million dollars?
Do you have some secret bank accounts like in Qatar?
Where are you storing this dough?
I haven't heard a word about it.
Uh oops, honey, I've been busted right here by you know, uh, some whack job on on X. Um look, this stuff, you know, look at it this way.
Israel is fighting for its life against radical Islam.
We don't do it that well, they're on the front lines doing it.
You can argue, is it worth 3.8 billion dollars?
If you have a case, you want to say that we should give them no money, oh, we should give him one billion because that's all they're worth, um, then make that case.
Argue it out.
But the simple fact of the matter is to tear down Israel, to tear down the Jews, to legitimize this kind of oceanic anti-Semitism.
Look, what are you doing?
I mean, you're helping radical Islam.
There's no other way to look at it, right?
Here's another group you're helping the radical left, the cultural left in this country.
You're giving the shooter in the Charlie Kirk case an elegant defense.
He comes on and goes, you know, there are many people who think that uh, well, you got my DNA and you got my footprints, and you may you have you have the goods on me, but guess what?
Candace Owens and all these other people say the Mossad did it.
Can you prove the Mossad didn't?
Uh and uh and so, you know, maybe there's reasonable doubt right there.
We are actually helping the worst people in the world.
There is an alliance right now between, on the one hand, the cultural left in the West, and on the other hand, the radical Muslims.
These two groups uh cannot exist in each other's world, but they are joined together by a mutual hate of who?
Well, of Israel and of the Christians.
And so um to undermine our relationship with Israel, to undercut Israel, is to fortify both the cultural left in this country and the radical Muslims.
So these are the worst elements of the world.
They have declared in their rhetoric of the little Satan and the big Satan, they know who their enemies are.
So either we join up with the people who are fighting them, or this would be sort of like the Union army in the middle of the civil war, identifying some battalions that are particularly effective in taking on the Confederacy and basically saying, let's cut off all ties to those people.
Why are we why are we providing ammunition to the uh, you know, to to Grant and Sherman?
Uh well, the answer is because they're doing a really good job fighting the really bad guys who would finish us off if they could.
That's what's at stake here.
So look, I'm not saying Tucker Carlson is paid by Qatar.
I've never said that.
I don't know it to be true.
Uh unfortunately, this insinuation that people only think the way they are because they're getting paid.
I mean, honestly, I'm a little tired of it.
Um Tucker's very well off.
I understand he's from a well-off Family.
He certainly has plenty of ways to make money.
He's got a big following.
He doesn't actually need the Qatari money.
And I would be very shocked if he is doing it for that.
So I'm staying away from all that nonsense.
I'm merely pointing out not the motives, which I don't know, but what are the effects of all this?
Let me come back to the film and say that the film, I'm happy to say, um, deals with these political issues, but it deals with it in a very kind of objective, thoughtful manner.
I take, for example, Taco Carlson's question to Ted Cruz, and I pose it to Netanyahu.
I let Netanyahu answer it his way.
And so the film begins in politics, but I have to say it doesn't end in politics.
It ascends.
And I think that's something we really need these days.
People talked in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's assassination about the need for restoration, for revival, uh, for spiritual enlightenment.
I do think that all of that is in this film.
Debbie uses the phrase kind of God led.
Uh, and uh, and I do think that we have seen in the making of this in our ability to go when Israel was mostly closed.
Uh, I was reading a book about red heifers on the um on the flight.
I get to Israel, and almost amazingly, I run into a guy.
This was completely unplanned, and he goes, Wanna see the red heifers?
I'm like, what?
He goes, the red heifers.
I go, they're red heifers.
The red heifers that are supposed to be part of temple sacrifices when the temple is rebuilt and the Alaksa Moss comes down.
He goes, Yeah, those red heifers.
I go, where are they?
He goes, right over here, right over there.
He points his finger.
We had this kind of stuff happen to us multiple times during this film.
It reminds me a little bit of some of the things Kavizel said about the making of the Passion of the Christ and how strange things were happening in the course of that film.
The same has been true in a certain way with with this film.
I want you to go see it if you can in the theater.
If not, sign up right now for the streaming.
Uh, order your DVDs.
It's a great way to share the message.
Hey, if you want to watch it first, make sure you love it, then buy DVDs, no problem.
Do that.
The website, the one stop shop for tickets, theater tickets, and everything else, the dragonsprophecyfilm.com.
I can't wait to hear what you think about this film.
When I first came to America around 1980, I had 500 in my pocket.
Now, if I had been frugal and not spent a penny of that money, what would it be worth?
What could it actually buy now compared to what it could buy in 1980?
Answer less than 130 dollars.
Why is that?
Because the US government, through the Fed, is constantly printing money.
When the government prints money, there's more money chasing the same amount of goods and services.
So money goes down in value.
Money buys less and less.
Now, the Fed has been at it since 1913.
That's why a dollar today can only buy what a few cents could buy in 1913.
And the government continues to print oceans of money.
It never stops.
An ounce of gold reached a high of $850 in 1980.
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Guys, um I am just delighted to welcome back to the podcast somebody who is a good friend and a true delight to have.
It's always fun to be around him.
It's always fun to talk either in person or like now on the show.
It's Eric Metaxis.
Um the website, Eric Metaxis.com.
Eric is a New York Times, the number one New York Times bestselling author, his spectacular book, Bonhoffer, but then a procession of others, miracles, if you can keep it, the acclaimed letter to the American Church, which is now a documentary film, and also a book that deals with biblical archaeology that I highly recommend.
In fact, it is directly referenced in The Dragon's Prophecy.
It's is Atheism Dead.
Evidently, it's also going to be a streaming TV series.
Eric, thank you for joining me.
It's always great to have you.
I want to talk a little bit about biblical archaeology and also our conversation about that in the Dragon's Prophecy.
But let's start by talking about this debate that seems to be swirling around social media over replacement theology.
Now, you're more of a theologian than I am.
But I just want to give my own kind of summary of what I think the replacement theology, at least this camp, is saying and have you react to it.
What they seem to be saying is that when Jesus came, the old order was replaced.
The New Testament was replaced by the new.
the old covenant was replaced by the new the jews have acted badly and sort of forfeited any promises that god made to them This has all now been taken over by the Christians, which means that we are now indifferent to Judaism.
We just view it as another false religion.
We need to leave all of that behind, let alone thinking that any of the Old Testament passages about blessing Israel are even remotely relevant today.
So I don't, I think I'm giving a pretty fair summary of what I think these people are saying.
I just want you as someone who is thought deeply about Christianity, thought deeply about what it means, um to comment on this.
Well, thank you.
It's um let's uh at least say dismaying uh that we're having this cultural conversation at this point.
When I was born again, when I had my Jesus experience in 1988, one of the givens uh when you accept Jesus, when you become a full-blown Christian, I don't know what I was before then, I was some kind of a Christian, but something happened to me, and I'm all in, and I realized to love Jesus, you know, because we're not simply called to have an intellectual ascent to some theological doctrines.
No, we're supposed to have a personal relationship with God himself, who is a person, capital P, and who designed us to have a relationship with him.
So it's deeper than just some intellectual ascent to some theology.
And when I came to faith in this way, the people around me, the people who were my uh elders in the faith, um made me understand that for some reason um we who love Jesus have a love for Israel.
Now, as with anything else, you know, words are words, and then you have to think, what does that mean?
Can I say what that means exactly?
Well, on some basic level, and this is why I think my Bonhoeffer book speaks to this, if people want to see how Bonhoeffer dealt with that, but you realize that to be a person of God, to be called into relationship with God, uh is somehow, according to Romans, according to St. Paul, who was Jewish, is to be grafted in to Israel.
Now, again, what does that mean?
Uh you'll you'll never be able to satisfy some people with the explanation of what that means, because there's a mystery there.
But the point is that we who are Christians are somehow grafted in uh to the tree.
Uh so the original tree is Israel, but through the new covenant, we're we're grafted in.
We become a part of that.
Now, again, there's a mystery there.
We know as Christians that uh Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.
It says in the scripture he came first for the Jew, then for the Greek, which is to say those who are Gentiles.
And there's a there's a paradox there, because I know that my faith is in Jesus, but I also know that he was a Jew.
He did not abolish, this is very important.
He did not abolish the old covenant.
The new covenant does not abolish the old covenant.
It is the fulfillment of the old covenant.
And so again, there's a mystery there.
But one thing I knew when I came to faith as a Christian, believing in the Jewish Jesus as Messiah, was that God calls us to love Israel.
And I think there are so many passages in the scripture that talk about the Jews coming back to Israel, to the land.
What can that possibly mean?
It's a fascinating concept because we know that the diaspora happened, 70 AD, they're chased away from the homeland where they have been for well over a thousand years.
And there's this prophecy, many, many prophecies, that they will return.
And so it seems obvious to me and most serious Christians that this is what happened in 1948.
When the Jews come from everywhere back to the land uh where all these things happened, um, it's a fulfillment of prophecy.
Now, again, you could say, well, what does that mean exactly?
Well, we may not know exactly, but we know the basics.
We know that out of one of the worst things in the history of the world, the Holocaust, comes the ability for the Jews to return to their homeland.
So you would think, on the simplest level, we would be cheering them on, we would be blessing them, uh, we would be grateful that God returned them to the land because he had always promised this.
And so the idea that people would postulate that this has no meaning, that Israel is no more interesting than Liechtenstein or Belgium or any other country, seems ridiculous if you're a student of the Bible and if you love the God of the Bible.
So even if you can't give uh every jot and tittle of what this means, the basics are there.
We're called to love the people of God.
And we know one of the ways that I know the Jews are God's chosen people, is the hatred, the irrational hatred for them.
You don't see an irrational hatred of any other group.
There's something there, which to me, as a negative, shows the positive, shows that God's hand is on the people of Israel.
And again, the details are details.
You can talk forever about it.
But the but the idea that they're people somehow who have an animus against Israel, or somehow, let's face it, Dinesh, who want to blame the Jews for anything for crucifying Jesus, this is ridiculous.
I mean, it's almost shocking in this day and age that people would return to these ancient hatreds, to these ancient lies.
I mean, if you are if if if anybody listening thinks that he is a Christian, the number one thing you know as a Christian is that I and my sins put Jesus on the cross.
If you want to blame someone else for putting Jesus on the cross, you do not understand the basics of the Christian faith and are probably Not a saved Christian, and that should frighten you.
Eric, let me uh say it kind of my way, uh, what you've been saying, because I think it's so fundamental.
Uh, I want to uh recapitulate it slightly.
And I would put it this way that even though that God did not come into the world as a kind of abstract being.
He came into the world and he engaged with the world through history.
Uh and it is a mystery.
Why did God choose the Jews?
Remember Hilar Belloc's little verse, how odd of God to choose the Jews?
Okay, it's really odd, I grant.
But nevertheless, uh, if we accept the truth of Christianity, we believe that's how God did it.
Yeah, he he came uh into the he essentially began his covenant with Jews, and then one of them, named Jesus, becomes the Messiah.
And I also think it's interesting that if you look at the Bible as a sort of biography of God, if you want to put it that way, the God the Father, the first person of the Trinity, is predominant in the Old Testament.
Uh and in fact, it's predominant in such a palpable way that like Adam and Eve can like talk to him, Abraham and Moses seem to interact with him with a directness that even the later prophets don't have.
Uh they may see God in dreams or, but they don't they don't talk to God back and forth and argue and bargain with him the way, say, Abraham did.
And then the New Testament is sort of the biography of Jesus, and then the Acts of the Apostles, the biography of the Holy Spirit.
So isn't in some ways what these so-called replacement theologians, I mean, what they're basically saying is, let's cut out God the Father.
His day is done.
Let's just keep Jesus and the Spirit, the three persons of the Trinity is like down to two.
And this to me is, I mean, this is not some interne sign reasonable debate about theology.
This is like rank heresy, it's completely nuts.
It is out of bounds of what any Christian denomination has believed from the very beginning.
Uh, and this is something that should be absolutely shunned.
Do you agree?
I agree wholeheartedly, Dinesh.
And let's think of this for a moment.
I mean, the thing disproves itself every time you turn around.
To whom did Jesus talk?
To his father in heaven.
Jesus the Jew, he didn't say, Oh, I'm the first Christian.
He said, I'm the Jewish Messiah.
I'm the fulfillment that the Jews have looked to this day.
I am the fulfillment, I am the Jewish Messiah, and I speak to my father, Abba, Father in Heaven.
He shows us how to do it.
When they said, Hey, Jesus, how do we pray?
Our Father who art in heaven.
It is again, it is a very, very abbreviated, reductive view of things to wipe all that away.
And you you really have to be uh ignorant, you have to be uh an ideologue to ignore uh Christian history to misunderstand these things.
And so, yes, it is absolutely shocking that we're living in a day where we have to reassert the basics.
And again, if you want to see who has done this before, the Nazis did this before.
The Nazis tried to take the Judaism out of the Christian faith.
That is an insanity.
It's the the there is without the Jewishness of the Christian faith, there is no Christian faith.
The Christian faith is a Jewish faith.
Jesus came, think of this.
God sent his Messiah into the world.
Why?
To get the whole world to worship the God of the Jews, so that we all become Jewish by faith in the Jesus in the Messiah, the Jewish Messiah.
So we're supposed to, in a sense, all become deeply Jewish.
We are part of the new Israel.
So the idea that that we reject Israel or that Israel is irrelevant or I mean, again, there are always going to be people who quibble and we can talk about the details, but the fundamentals are there.
Uh these are God's people.
He loves his people, and even if they turn away from him, um uh he loves them all the more.
They're his children.
He wants to woo them back.
And I think anybody who loves Jesus knows this and loves the Jewish people and prays for the Jewish people and stands with the Jewish people, and on a particular and and on a simply secular view.
Who doesn't know if you don't even believe in God or anything?
You just you just see Israel, this small nation that has been attacked and attacked and attacked by people, by bloodthirsty people who genuinely want to wipe it uh off uh the face of the map.
For whom would you be rooting in that?
Uh uh a group of people that believe in democracy, that have religious liberty, and then you have these surrounding nations that want to want to destroy it.
I mean, even on just the most human level, uh, it seems clear with whom we should side.
I mean, I also think, Eric, switching here a little bit to the strategic and the political and a kind of secular language, you do have people here, and I you hear them today, Megan Kelly's one of them, but others, they're like, Israel needs to like wrap it up, like, you know, like enough, you know.
So I say to myself, all right, you know, Israel has about 25 million people.
We are more than 10 times as big.
Uh they lost a thousand people on October 7th.
Let's just multiply by 10.
This would be like somebody attack coming into the United States, going into neighborhoods and massacring people, and we lose 10,000 people, three times as many as on September 11th.
Now, would these same MAGA tough guys who are all for butt kicking and show them and let's, you know, let's teach them a lesson and America first.
If that were to happen inside of America, would they be saying, let's wrap it up, Trump?
You know, don't retaliate.
Uh, even though you're aiming at military targets, you're killing too many civilians, stop with all that nonsense.
In fact, we are the bad guys.
Um, we are the bad guys for responding to an unprovoked.
I mean, to me, it is so inconceivable that these same people would be taking that position that we kind of start approaching, and I'm very reluctant always to use the anti-Semitism label, but when you are clearly judging Israel and the Jews by a standard you would never apply to anyone else.
I think we're entitled to say there's something a little wrong with your motives here, right?
Uh I can make no sense of it, Dinesh.
I can make no sense of it.
When I think of the horror, now you you have to understand, there are always people who are going to believe insane things.
And so they believe that, oh, yeah, all that stuff that happened, well, it didn't really happen.
That's just Jewish propaganda.
You know, that's what Gebels said.
Anytime any information was put out that was inconvenient uh to his narrative, he'd say, Oh, it's Jewish propaganda.
And there will always be people who will believe that lie.
And that's what we're dealing with.
We have to soldier on amidst the madness and the actual propaganda that says that's propaganda, and we have to say, what does common sense say?
Common sense says, if you come into my country and you do these wicked things, and then you take hostages and you don't give the hostages back.
Do you not know that we're gonna do everything we can possibly do to get these people back?
Do you and to prevent you ever doing this again?
That's simple common sense.
You don't need to be a Christian, you don't need to be an American.
This is simple common sense.
When you do this to my family and to families that I know and to my neighbors, this is the the most natural reaction.
So, you know, when when people like Meghan Kelly cavalierly say, well, it's time to wrap it up, Hamas and the they could have wrapped it up from day one by turning over the hostages.
Why haven't they done that?
Because they don't want to wrap it up.
So it seems to me the onus is on them to wrap it up, and they have made it very clear they don't want to wrap it up.
So it's very strange to me that people like Megan Kelly would say that.
I cannot imagine where she's coming from.
Yeah, in fact, you know, a moment ago, I I even uh understated my point because the number of Jews in Israel is actually closer to 10 million, not 25 million.
I was actually describing the number of Jews worldwide, including all the Jews in the United States.
So my case is actually much, much stronger.
Let's pivot, Eric, uh, a little bit to a topic that is the uh the centerpiece of your book is atheism dead.
We have uh a beautiful conversation, the two of us in the movie about this.
We're not systematically covering it, but but your our conversation is actually the roadmap, all the things you mentioned in our conversation, all the places like the birthplace of Jesus, we then physically went to all those places, so we could we could it's all embedded inside your conversation in the film.
It turns out beautifully.
You're gonna love it.
But uh talk a little bit about the significance of this archaeology in general and why it's so important that it's happening today.
It seems to be providing, you could almost call it secular ratification or authentication of the historicity of the Bible.
That No, that's exactly uh right, and that's perfectly well put because we're living in a time now, and we have to be clear.
Um, a hundred years ago you couldn't say this.
And there are two things that I put in the book as Atheism Dead.
The first is that science is now today pointing to a creator God in a way that has absolutely never been uh happening.
It is a new thing, and it's astonishing.
And the second part of the book, which we talk about in the film, is it's the same thing happened with archaeology.
In the last hundred or so years, biblical archaeology is unveiling things that are staggering.
It proves with stones, with with evidence, actual evidence, that the Bible is history.
So those people who 100 years ago or 50 years ago wanted to dismiss the Bible as a bunch of folk tales.
You say, well, excuse me, what about this?
What about this?
What about this?
Every time we turn around, and this has been happening for decades and decades, the excavations uh in the Middle East are revealing the Bible to be history.
I mean, 150 years ago, this was not conceivable.
That the Bible existed by itself, there was no correlation to anything outside of itself.
Suddenly now we find things in the archaeological record that prove that what the Bible is saying has reality to it.
We are living in very, very exciting times.
This is coming out more and more and more.
Uh I have to say that it's it's but it's going to become nearly impossible for people not to believe the Bible is history as the days pass.
And the the only hope for somebody who doesn't want to believe the Bible is history is you know not to read my book, to ignore your movie, to look away.
Because once you see what you and I have seen, you say, ladies and gentlemen, it's an open and shut case.
If you're intellectually honest, you understand that God is now allowing us to see through archaeology, which didn't exist 150 years ago, that the Bible is actually history.
So it's very challenging to a secular worldview.
I mean, the reason it makes this makes me uh chuckle, Eric, is because when you and I were in college, you were at Yale, I went to Dartmouth.
If we had gone to religion class, we would have been exposed to these so-called biblical higher critics.
And these are guys who for 150 years would sit in their kind of armchair and they would read the Bible and go, Well, you know, we actually think that the Bible was written by four different people, and we're going to give them all different names, and through kind of surgical uh analysis of the text, we're going to proclaim that all of this was composed hundreds of years after the fact.
Right.
And therefore, much of it is either embellished or made up altogether.
And what you're saying is that now people have actually gotten out of the armchair.
They've gone into the archaeological pit.
They're pulling out clay seals and stone inscriptions.
By the way, many of them written by the enemies of the Jews, by people who conquer Israel, saying things like, I just want a great victory against the house of David, and suddenly the house of David, which was previously in the Bible, but only in the Bible, springs to life, jumps into history, and becomes utterly undeniable, embarrassing a hundred years of idiot scholarship that basically said that David was a mythical character, kind of like King Arthur.
Well, that's exactly right.
And it's happening over and over and over.
And this is why I was thrilled to be a part of your film because I want to get the word out.
I want the whole world to know, and I want especially Christians to know that this evidence, it didn't used to exist.
I mean, 50 years ago, uh, it would have been tough.
But it's for some reason God has chosen now to reveal these things through science through archaeology, and it's going to be gigantically challenging to the secularists.
The evidence has it's simply become overwhelming.
Awesome stuff, guys.
Uh, we're delighted to have Eric in this film.
He's a big addition to it.
I've been talking to Eric Metaxis, his um website, Ericmataxis.com.
Follow him on X at Eric Mataxis.
Check out the book is Atheism Dead.
Uh, Eric, what a pleasure to have you.
Thank you for joining me.
Always, always my pleasure.
Thanks, Tanesh.
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You know, I thought about sort of suspending my discussion of life after death just because I'm in the throes of the Trump peace plan and the movie and skirmishes with Tucker Carlson and all of it.
But I'm not going to.
I'm going to kind of keep it going.
Why?
Because I think it's it's important for us to keep a certain type of serene balance.
And we are plunged in the timely, but we want also want to keep our eye on the timeless.
This is the idea of subspecia tonatus from the point of view of eternity.
And by the way, the film incorporates all that.
So the film itself is timely and timeless.
But that being said, uh this issue of life after death is perennially relevant to people.
Our sojourn on the earth is brief.
It is truly a pilgrimage, right?
That's why the idea of the pilgrim's progress, Jocso's great work, captures more than the actual pilgrimage he's describing.
So here we go.
This chapter two, which is called Vendors of Unbelief.
These are the people who are promoting unbelief, promoting atheism, promoting a certain type of skepticism.
That turns out not to be true skepticism at all, because it's one-way skepticism.
It is skeptical of belief in God, but it's not skeptical about skepticism itself.
We'll come back to that.
I start with a quotation from Shakespeare.
Death, the undiscovered country from whose born, no traveler returns.
So here's Shakespeare very evocatively.
Death, it's undiscovered.
Why?
'Cause it's not that you can't go there, you can, but if you do, how are you gonna come back?
So as a result, an impassable gulf appears to exist between this life and the next, if there is a next one.
And this is the gulf we are going to strenuously attempt to bridge or to cross.
Let's begin.
On July 7th, 1776, the writer James Boswell visited philosopher David Hume as Hume lay Close to death.
Now, Boswell is the great biographer.
He wrote an absolutely mesmerizing biography of Samuel Johnson.
It's called Boswell's Life of Johnson.
Very long book.
If you read it, you want to read it in small pieces, but it is full of moments that are not only laugh out loud funny because Johnson is truly one of the funniest people of all time.
But it is also such a vivid picture of Johnson that upon reading it, I realized I actually know this guy.
I kind of know Boswell, but I really know Johnson.
If Johnson were to actually walk into a restaurant where I was eating dinner with Debbie and some friends, I would recognize him.
That's how good this book is, and very few biographies can even come close to doing that.
Now, Boswell was one of these guys who loved to be around great men.
He crossed the English Channel to go meet uh Rousseau.
Boswell, when he heard that uh David Hume was on his deathbed, Boswell basically decided, I'm gonna head over there.
Why?
Because Boswell basically goes, David Hume is an atheist.
He keeps talking about the fact that there's no there's no life after death, and he claims to be undisturbed by it.
But Boswell goes, but can he really be undisturbed by it?
Let me go find out.
Let me go and kind of watch him as he's dying to see if he likes freaks out and starts like calling on God and demanding that a priest come to see him and he repents of his sins.
Let me let's see if he has a deathbed conversion.
And Boswell goes to visit Hume, and then he notices that Hume does not have a deathbed conversion.
Boswell writes that Hume was, quote, placid and even cheerful unto the end.
And um, and um uh Adam Smith, by the way, who is also a friend of Hume, um noted that uh he talked to Hume shortly before Hume's death, and he says Hume uh was kind of making jokes about death, and he basically told Death, this is Hume talking, I need a little more time.
I'm like in the middle of finishing a manuscript, so hey Death, can you like hold off a little bit?
I'm just trying to like get a few more paragraphs in.
Uh and um and and uh Death replies and and basically says uh to Hume, you are a loitering rogue.
You should have done all this work earlier.
Your time has come, like get in the boat.
Uh so get in the boat is a classical reference to uh the uh the um the famous uh ancient Greek boatsman named Caron, uh, who would steer people into the into Hades into the afterlife after death?
Get in the boat.
And um so Boswell is kind of unnerved by this because he's like, how can a person who doesn't know what is coming after death be so cool and so confident as they approach the end?
Well, this issue of the deathbed conversion has come up more recently in the context of Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, all of whom seem to be sort of obsessed with this idea that they say as atheists they are not going to do deathbed conversions.
They seem to almost realize like, geez, uh this might happen to me, or uh perhaps more tellingly, they have the view that somehow Christian propagandists are gonna go say we converted on our deathbed.
We want to tell you in advance that it's fake news, that it we're not gonna do that.
So you don't believe it even if you hear about it.
This is this is Dawkins.
He goes, I might want to have someone videotape my death.
Frankly, nobody cares.
But his view is that so he thinks his death is so important that it needs to be videotaped in order to later refute rumors that he somehow converted on his death.
But Daniel Dennett went in for a nine-hour operation.
This is now a few years ago.
Uh he says the doctors told him this this might be fatal.
And then it says, yeah, this was actually a harrowing experience.
And Dennett even admitted it tested his atheism.
But he says, nevertheless, he he wrote an essay called Thank Goodness, not thank God, but thank goodness.
What he's getting at is he goes, he emerged intact, and he says, not only that, but his atheism did not give in.
He he held on to it uh firmly.
And um, and he also said, you know, I want to thank not God, but the medical community.
They're the ones who saved me.
God didn't have anything to do with it.
Now, um perusing all this, uh, what interests me is the kind of psychology of all these people of Hume, Dawkins, Dennett, all of them, even Hitchens.
Um, these are atheists who are trying to assure us that they're going to approach their own death with equanimity.
They don't really need to bother about life after death because they they don't think there is one.
They in fact they know there isn't.
Uh and it is this kind of assurance, this kind of um uh certainty uh that gives them a certain type of a plomb.
They don't they're not gonna be uh shaken, they're not gonna be they're not gonna give in and surrender.
They're not even going to be possessed of any kind of haunting doubts to the very end.
Now, why not?
Why not?
What do these atheists know that we don't?
And how did they come to know it?
This is the question I want to leave you with today.
Think about an atheist who goes, There's no life after death, and you're not posing to them a question, what makes you so sure?
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