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Oct. 2, 2025 - Dinesh D'Souza
47:29
UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE FOR CHRIST Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep1181
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Is the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians?
The revival of an ancient conflict recorded in the Bible.
The nation of Israel is a resurrected nation.
What if there was going to be a resurrection of another people, an enemy people of Israel?
The Dragon's Prophecy in Theaters October 6th and 8th.
Streaming and DVDs available October 9th.
Get the film at the Dragons Prophecy Film.com.
Hi everyone, I'm Danielle D'Souza Gill.
I am so delighted to be here today.
It's really been an honor getting to host Denesha's show whenever he's not here.
As you guys might know, I'm his daughter.
I've written two books, one on apologetics on arguments for God and belief in Christianity, and another book on pro-life arguments, debunking the pro-choice or pro-abortion side.
Um, I mostly a mom to my two kids, but love to be able to be involved when I can in the fight against the radical left.
So um, yeah, I'll be hosting today's show, and we have a lot to talk about today.
We're actually going to talk in depth about evidence for the existence of Christ.
We're going to dive into historical accurate text to prove Jesus' existence.
Then we are going to speak with Zev Ornstein from the City of David.
He is based in Israel, and we're going to ask him about the this underground city.
You've maybe heard him on the podcast before.
Um, but we're gonna talk a little bit about that because this all relates to my dad's upcoming film, The Dragon Prophecy, which goes into a lot of the details with biblical archaeology, which is just fascinating.
I'm gonna kind of look at it from a little bit of a different angle while I'm on today, talking a little bit more about historical evidence and arguments for God, but it's just gonna be fascinating.
So um, we are gonna dive into all these things.
I'm also going to um later on play a little clip of the pilgrimage road so you can see kind of what we're referring to in our interview with Zev when we were talking about it, and this is a road that is literally historical.
It is literally underground from um ancient times.
So we have a lot to talk about today.
This is the Dinesh J'Souza Podcast.
America needs this voice.
The times are crazy in a time of confusion, division, and lies.
We need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth.
This is the Dinesh de Susa podcast.
In terms of practice and form, every religion in human history has its claim to practices which are for the most part unique to that religion.
You have the blood sacrifices of old testament Judaism, the warrior monks of Buddhism, the strict textualism of the Sunni Muslims, and the Hindu promotion of deep love of the divine.
I say for the most part because these unique practices are actually found in one single religion.
Christianity.
Orthodox and Catholics believe in the transfiguration of bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ.
This is openly referred to as a sacrifice by those believers and is understood as a kind of continuation of the Old Testament sacrifices.
The warrior monk of Shaolin has a a Christian counterpart in the Crusader Knight, who was not only a soldier but also required to live under monastic rules as part of his military service.
Christianity also has its strict textualists in the sola scriptura denominations, and all forms of Christianity in their own ways promote the idea of a life devoted to God and to serving him.
From saints to martyrs to mystics, from incense to swords to prayer beads to altars, it seems like all of the world's religions can see something within Christianity.
It could be that Christianity is the most mirrored religion of all.
It's almost as if Christianity was specially designed to sate the innate hunger for the divine, which everyone has, no matter where you are from.
This is a universal aspect of the human condition and one that only Christianity can answer.
As if the founder of the Christian religion himself had a working understanding of mankind's shared psychological makeup and made a religion in response to all those spiritual needs.
And if you think about the one aspect that is unique to Christianity, which is not mirrored by any other faith in history, this unique claim of Christianity is not that it was founded by a mere prophet or simply a great man.
Christianity is the only religion which claims to be founded, not by a man nor by a god or gods, but by God himself, God in person, in the flesh, here, on this earth, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
The most unique aspect of Christianity isn't its claims to a connection with God or the divine, but to a personal connection to God.
It's what distinguishes it from every other religion out there.
The revelation of Christianity isn't a book of scriptures or a collection of sayings.
The revelation of Christianity is the human person of Christ in his mercy and love for us.
And interestingly enough, those other religions, despite their status as competitors within the world of religion, all acknowledge that Christ did in fact exist.
This is particularly true for those faiths which are closest to Christianity in terms of historical origin and location.
Neither pagan Romans, Jews nor Muslims deny the existence of the man who called Jesus of Nazareth, and that is pretty stunning.
It's the West that has the biggest issue dealing with the historical reality of Jesus, because it's here where the atheist agenda is strongest, and people advocate for the mythicist position that Jesus Christ is just a fairy story and that such a man never really existed.
They start from the assumption that our best and most reliable source, the books of the New Testament, aren't acceptable as proof, so they force us to debate with that handicap from the outset.
And being obliging Christians, we accepted the challenge.
Before we get to the extra biblical proofs, we need to talk about why the biblical proofs have every right to be considered reliable.
The text evidence for the veracity of certain New Testament events is exceptionally rich.
Thousands of handwritten manuscripts, early translations into other languages, and quotations in the writings of early Christian authors testify to the truth that Jesus Christ really existed on earth.
Furthermore, these sources allow us to reconstruct the New Testament and understand its transmission over time.
Sure, a leather-bound King James version of the Bible wasn't written the day after Christ's resurrection, but the gospel books we have today didn't just pop up out of nowhere.
They were sourced from contemporary accounts that were valued and curated through the early days of Christianity.
Evidence of Christ's existence, death, and resurrection and belief in the same can be dated earlier than 200 AD in some cases.
When you consider the fact that documentation providing the existence of Alexander the Great can only be dated 400 years after his death, the evidence for Christ is far more reliably historical.
According to Houston Christian University, there are over 5,800 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament which have been grouped by their writing material and script with the papyri from the second century AD being the oldest.
In addition, analysis of the New Testament provide evidence that the Gospels are based on eyewitness accounts.
As ancient accounts of historical events go, the gospels appear to be remarkably close in time to the events they describe.
The book of Mark, for instance, is believed to have been written just forty to fifty years after the death of Jesus.
In this way, the gospel narratives themselves are evidence for the historicity of Jesus.
Proof for the historical Jesus is found in early extra biblical sources as well, most notably in the writings of the historians Josephus and Tacitus.
The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who lived between the years 37 and 100 AD, is considered to be the most important historian for events in first century Judea.
Josephus was a Jewish general in the first Roman Jewish War, which took place from 66 to 73 AD, and he later defected to become a Roman general in the conflict.
In his year 93 AD work of history, the Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus writes about Jesus in two places.
The first and most famous mention has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavienum, or testimony of Flavius.
Josephus writes, now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure.
He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles.
He was the Christ.
And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.
And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
While scholars agree that certain elements were added to the testimonium, there is a general consensus that Josephus's Jesus is authentic.
Secular academic Bart Ehrman in his work Did Jesus Exist notes that, quote, one or more Christian scribes touched up the passage a bit, but that does not diminish the text status as proof of the existence of the historical Jesus.
Citing the existence of the 10th century Arabic translation of Josephus' antiquities, the scholar of Jewish and Islamic philosophy, Shlomo Pines, asserts the testimonium of Josephus is authentic evidence that Jesus really did exist.
The Arabic version describes Jesus as a wise and virtuous man who was crucified by Pilate.
The text states that the disciples reported his resurrection and believed he was the Messiah.
This version differs by omitting Christian traditions.
Additions, such as the phrase, if indeed one ought to call him a man, and a direct statement that Jesus was the Christ.
The testimonium is important because in it Josephus, a nonbeliever, confirms Jesus' existence as a virtuous man with many followers who was crucified by Pontius Pilate.
He also confirms that the followers of Christ believed from the start that he was resurrected and that they thought he was the Messiah.
Josephus also illustrates the ongoing hostility of the Jewish religious establishment towards the followers of Jesus.
The Roman historian Tacitus is another extra biblical source.
Tastus lived from 56 to 120 AD, and he served as both a consul and proconsul.
A consul was a chief magistrate of the Roman Republic, a high-ranking official with vast civil and military powers, including commanding armies and presiding over the Senate.
A proconsul was a former consul who was assigned to govern a Roman province, wielding supreme authority.
Tacitus is considered to be one of Rome's greatest historians and prose stylists, and he is known for his master works, the histories.
As a renowned writer, orator, and historian, Tacitus is a reliable source on the historicity of Jesus.
He was not only a powerful politician and a well respected writer, but he was also a harsh critic of Christians.
So Tacitus had no reason to fabricate stories about the existence of Jesus.
His mentions of Christ, therefore offer credible proof that Jesus really did exist.
Tacitus wrote about Jesus in Book 15, chapter 44.
There Tacitus described how Emperor Nero blamed the Christians for the great fire of Rome in AD 64.
A report that the fire had been ordered caused Nero to cast about for a scapegoat, according to Tacitus.
Once he fails in his attempts to deflect, Nero finally settled on blaming the Christians.
Tacitus explains, quote, but all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order.
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again, broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular.
Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pled guilty, then upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.
So Nero basically framed the Christians as the cause of the fire in order to avoid blame.
In the process, however, a savage hatred took hold and the Christians weren't even given the dignity of normal executions.
Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths.
Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired.
Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car.
Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion for them.
For it was not as it seemed for the public good, but the glut but but to glut one man's cruelty that they were being destroyed, he says.
In these experts, in these excerpts, Tacitus provides details about when Jesus was executed and by whom.
Tacitus shows that Christianity spread from Judea to Rome in less than fifty years after the death of Christ.
His writing also confirms that Christians were willing to die for their belief in Christ.
Like Josephus, he provides non-Christian proof for the existence of Jesus.
Jesus mythicists insist that the words of Josephus and Tacitus could have been altered by Christian transcribers and therefore should be ignored, but this is not a view common among even secular academics because linguistic and textual analysis seem to indicate that the mentions of Jesus in both Josephus and Tacitus are in fact authentic.
Oxford University Press has recently published a much touted study by scholar T. C. Schmidt entitled Josephus and Jesus, New Evidence for the One Called Christ.
The book provides a persuasive account of the mounting evidence that the testimonium flavium is authentic.
In the case of Tacitus, his disparaging comments and derogatory remarks about Christ and Christianity, combined with the eloquence and sophistication of his Latin prose, both stand in opposition to the weak objections made by the Jesus mythicists.
Those were the traditional sources that Christians have relied on to verify The existence of Jesus of Nazareth.
But new discoveries are happening all the time in the field of archaeology that not only fail to challenge Bible truths, but actually verify them.
You've probably heard about the now famous Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered in 1947, a collection of third century writings which included nearly the entire Old Testament, which helped to verify the historicity of the texts.
They also verified the curation techniques used by Christians and Jews to preserve their own copies of those same texts across different locations, cultures, and languages.
More recently, as detailed in the Dragon's Prophecy movie, which is opening on Monday, archaeologists have discovered the actual biblical city of David and are busy excavating it in Israel today.
This is another discovery that astounds biblical researchers and historians.
A whole the city, thought lost to the sands of time, was actually not lost, just sort of lost under literal sand.
Only this century, around the year 2003, the Israel Antiquities Authority discovered a mosaic made around 230 AD.
The mosaic reads, the God-loving Ekeptus has offered the table to God Jesus Christ as a memorial.
Now known as the Megiddo Mosaic, it stands as one of the earliest explicit references to the Christian belief that Christ is God incarnate and not just a good man or a wise prophet.
Interestingly, some of Christianity's earliest critics have also left extra biblical proof that Christians have always worshipped Christ as God.
The Alexa Menos graffito dates to around 200 AD and depicts a crude drawing of a man lifting his arms up to a crucified man with the head of a donkey.
The inscription reads, Alexamenos worships his God.
Not only did the drawing preserve a truth of the Christian faith, its mocking tone underscores the reality of the early church, that it was heavily persecuted, and worship was generally done underground.
One of the key moments in that persecution was in 70 AD when the Roman Emperor Hadrian suppressed the second Jewish revolt and to punish Jews and Christians alike, constructed a temple dedicated to either Venus or Jupiter atop the very site venerated by early Christians as the place of Christ's tomb.
Due to that act of official oppression, the place where Christ was entombed has been securely marked for centuries by a giant pagan temple, due to Emperor Hadrian.
Naturally, the tomb today remains as it was in the days of Christ, empty.
The site is now the location of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which was dedicated in 335 AD.
Another interesting tidbit of proof for both the existence and the resurrection of Christ is the fact that we have Jesus' photograph.
No, not an actual photograph.
Cameras did not exist back then.
But the scientific process that they work by has always existed.
There are few explanations for how the image on the legendary shroud of Turin came to be.
The main issue is that the shroud appears to have been formed not by merely touching the skin of the man enrapped, areas of the body which wouldn't have been in contact with the shroud, such as the hollow of the eyes, actually stand out in great detail.
Also, the image wasn't painted onto the fabric, it was burned in.
Burned in such a way as to partially show some of the bodily internals like an X-ray.
The best explanation for the image is that it was created by a flash of intense ultraviolet light radiation, and given that this light burned both from the front and back of the image onto the cloth, it seems the light came from within the body itself.
It's possible that during the act of resurrection, Christ's body created that light and burned the image into the shroud.
This is consistent with the biblical account of the miracle of the transfiguration depicted in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
The books Describe Christ as suddenly radiating a bright white light that actually made his face and clothes glow.
This is exactly how cameras leave images onto surfaces like glass or film.
The shroud not only is proof of the historical occurrence of the miracle of the resurrection, it also is archaeological evidence, verifying the biblical account of the miracle of the transfiguration.
It seems that in addition to rising from the dead, Christ also left us something miraculous to remember him by, and in the process, took the first selfie.
So when it comes to the validity of the scriptures, the validity of the Bible, the existence of Christ, down to his empty burial place, as well as the existence and beliefs of early Christians, it really seems that we are spoiled for choice when it comes to proof.
Be they biblical or extra-biblical, non-Christian sources that verify this.
And we haven't even begun to talk about the other proofs of the divine origin of Christianity, which include its various fruits.
Whole books have been written on the Christian origins of Western civilization.
From our legal practices and concepts to improvements in farming to the development of science itself, Christianity has impacted the world exactly the way a religion made by God would be expected to.
This fact, too, reveals Christianity's divine origin and thus the divinity of its founder.
Christ's religion answers the biggest questions about the existence of pain and suffering and evil.
At the same time, it's ever it is ever green in its hope and optimism, which we have through Christ.
It is both grounded in the earthiness of God's material creation, and at the same time, shot through with the golden light of divine insight.
Much like God's creation, it is full of genuine surprises.
Mankind was surprised by the discovery of the atom.
But was that any more shocking than, for example, Erica Kirk's recent act of forgiving her husband's assassin?
Her words remind us that Christians truly are the salt and light of the earth by turns, sweetening and illuminating our world.
Christianity is a faith based on the revelation of a redeemer.
It is a faith made by God.
And we know this because God has left his fingerprints all over it, and we have so much evidence for this.
And everything about Christianity that's surprising, inspiring, fearsome, and comforting, we owe to Christ who himself is also all these things simultaneously.
Christ's suffering on the cross is the greatest gift that sinful man could ever receive.
And the faith he founded in person is his way of wrapping that gift with a little note attached.
I made this just for you.
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I am delighted to welcome our guest today, Zev Ornstein.
He is the director of international affairs at the City of David and is joining us from Jerusalem.
So thanks for joining us, Sev.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, well, I want to ask you about a recent um event you guys were doing with the pilgrimage road.
But maybe you can first start by telling us a little bit about what the pilgrimage road is.
Well, the city of David is the historic site of biblical Jerusalem.
It's the place where uh the kings of the Bible ruled, the prophets of the Bible preached, people like uh King David, King Solomon, prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah.
Uh that's the Jerusalem of the Bible.
That's where they were hanging out a couple of thousand years ago.
And back in 2004, at the southern end of the city of David, which is about an 11-acre ridge just south of the Temple Mount, uh, there was a sewage pipe.
And the sewage pipe bursts, and uh the municipality of Jerusalem had to send construction crews in to repair that sewage pipe.
But Jerusalem is not just another municipality, and the city of David is not just another part of Jerusalem.
And here, when a sewage pipe bursts, you don't only send in construction crews, you also send in a geologists.
And so the archaeologists are supervising, and they begin to hear scraping and scratching from the bulldozers and dump trucks.
It doesn't sound right.
They clear everyone out.
And it turns out in repairing the sewage pipe, they had inadvertently discovered some ancient stone steps, 2,000 years old, going back to the time of Jesus.
And the archaeologists said there's only one other set of steps in all of Jerusalem that looked just like those, the steps leading up to the Temple Mount, the southern steps, with significance to Jews and Christians alike.
And they realized that the steps they had found in the city of David were the steps leading down to the ancient pool of Ceylon with deep significance to Christians and Jews alike.
This was the spot where the Bible says there's the three pilgrimage festivals, Passover, Pentecost Tabernacles, when everyone has to go up to the temple.
And before you can go up to the temple on pilgrimage, you have to cleanse, wash, bathe.
And they realized they found the pool of Saloon, which was the main ritual bath 2,000 years ago in Jerusalem.
So then they had a question.
They said, we know where the pool of Salam is at the southern end of the city of David.
We know where the temple stood on the Temple Mount, a half mile to the north.
How did the millions of pilgrims get from the pool up to the Temple Mount?
And they widen the excavation and they find what has been called the most significant archaeological discovery Of the last 100 years, none other than the pilgrimage road.
And this was the road that our ancestors, yours and mine, Jews and Christians, 2,000 years ago, this is the very road that they would have walked on when they went on pilgrimage up to the temple atop the Temple Mount in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago.
Wow.
And explain to us a little bit about how it's how is it underground?
And is there like there's a city above it?
How does it work?
Is it going to eventually be above ground?
Or what is kind of the process involved?
So normally archaeology is top-down.
But here in the city of David in Jerusalem, it poses a challenge because today you have a modern day neighborhood.
Now, if this was the United States, what would happen?
You would have the government come in, uh, apply eminent domain, give all the people living in the neighborhood some money, and that would be that would be it.
They'd clear the neighborhood out and they would dig it all up.
Uh, but in Jerusalem, in this part of Jerusalem at least, we don't apply eminent domain for all sorts of uh sensitivities.
And so the challenge here is how do you, on the one hand, respect the people who live in the modern day city of David today, and at the same time unearth the history and the heritage that has significance not to millions but to billions.
In short, how do you get the best of both worlds?
And so what we have to do in the excavations is preserve the modern, support the modern, and uncover the ancient, which is how you end up with the pilgrimage road under about 60 feet of earth, uh, being supported by modern engineering, which supports the homes and the roads and the shops and the cars and the buses that are all about 60 feet above our heads, uh, and the archaeologists are able to unearth the uh the road itself.
And I'll tell you a story.
A couple years ago was guiding some Navy SEALs, and one of them had the same question that you asked, which is how did this end up underground?
And I explained that, you know, 2,000 years ago you had uh Jerusalem, and then it was conquered by the Romans, and then other people came in and conquered that, and then throw in some earthquakes and some more conquering, and you have uh a lot of civilizations piled up one after the other.
And I saw they still didn't really get it.
So I said, Well, you guys are based out of uh the West Coast in California.
I said, Imagine if you dug beneath your homes, you would find once upon a time there were probably some Native Americans who who lived there, maybe once upon a time some Republicans live there.
But over time, things change uh and get covered up.
And that's what happened here in the city of David.
And so uh we are literally going back 2,000 years to unearth uh what has been called the most significant archaeological discovery of the last hundred years, the biblical superhighway, the pilgrimage road.
And the road is very special because it has significance uh not just to Israel and to the Jewish people, uh, but to a couple of billion people around the world, and in particular, has deep significance uh to the United States of America.
Yeah, maybe you can tell us a little bit about recent uh event you guys did with Ambassador Huckabee and Secretary of State Marco Rubio about the pilgrim about the pilgrimage road and just kind of what the event was like and what you all were talking about.
So to share about this event, you really have to go back to the end of President Trump's first uh first term.
And one of the last things he did before leaving office a few months before, was he recognized the city of David in Jerusalem as a heritage site, but not as an Israeli heritage site, and not as uh a Jewish heritage site.
He recognized it as an American heritage site, on a plaque that sits at the entrance to the city of David, there's a giant American flag, and this plaque talks about the significance of the city of David to the United States of America.
They might wonder why would the United States recognize a site some 6,000 miles outside of its borders as an American heritage site?
And the answer is very simple.
Uh, what President Trump and his administration understood is the bedrock upon which the United States of America was established some 250 years ago, is what could be called the Judeo-Christian heritage.
And where does that heritage come from?
Where do those values come from?
They come from Jerusalem, which is a city of David.
All the heritage that's being unearthed in the city of David is not just significant to the Jewish people and to Israel, but is significant to hundreds of millions of Americans and countless Christians around the world.
And that really is the bedrock for what happened just two weeks ago here in the City of David, when we had a ceremony culminating for the first time in 2,000 years, the connection of the pilgrimage road from the pool of Siloam all the way up to the footsteps of the Temple Mount.
Literally 2,000 years in the making.
And at this event, uh it we had in attendance, Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, and it was really headlined by United States Secretary of State Marco Rubio and U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, along with many other dignitaries.
And the question is, well, why would they come?
I understand why Prime Minister Netanyahu would come and maybe why Ambassador Huckabee would come, but why would the Secretary of State of the United States travel across the world to be a part of an event like this?
And he said in his remarks, Secretary Rubio, that really the City of David, Jerusalem, is an inspiration for the values and ideals that the United States of America has been established upon for these last 250 years.
It's the values and heritage that have made America great.
God willing, it's the values and heritage that come from Jerusalem and the city of David that will keep America great for the next 250 years.
And so both Secretary Rubio and Ambassador Huckabee spoke about the foundations of faith that were rooted in Jerusalem, but that have gone on to inspire so many around the world, including the United States of America.
Wow, that is truly fascinating.
Do you feel like there's an increase in interest, especially of people of faith wanting to visit this in person?
Do you when will it be open to the public?
I know that it's it's still in process.
We're hoping to uh have it open for visitors uh sometime in the first half of 2026.
And as far as uh you know people having a desire to come, I think if you look around today, uh many people uh feel people of faith that they're under assault.
Uh if you look at the culture, the academia, the media, uh it's certainly uh there they're not people who uh seem to have much uh respect or reverence uh for the Bible, for its faith, for its teachings, for its values.
Uh, you certainly look at the political climate today uh and what's happened to to people of faith um even over the last couple of weeks is certainly frightening.
And I think many people want to know uh when their faith is being called into question so you know, so often, that it's not simply a matter of faith, but a matter of fact, that so much of the foundations of their faith uh can actually uh I don't like to use the word proven,
but affirmed, uh whether it's through archaeology or other means, that that uh as much as people want to uh make light of the Bible and its heritage, there's a place like the City of David, and perhaps no other place in the world like the city of David, uh, where the foundations, the roots, the tangible evidence of that faith is being brought to light in a way uh that could stand up to the highest levels of uh academic and scientific scrutiny.
And I think it's very powerful for people to be able to walk in the footsteps of their faith uh and to see that, despite what many people around the world may say, uh, that the biblical heritage coming from Jerusalem is very much real, very much alive.
Uh you could see it, you could touch it, you could walk on it.
And I think that's something that's uh very inspiring and very powerful, especially for the times that we're living in right now.
You were talking about how there is so much negativity in academia, media, other places, as far as kind of this assault on faith.
And um, because uh Jews, Christians alike are going to be drawn to this because it's it's from the Bible.
Have you experienced any roadblocks, any setbacks or any pushback from atheists, other religions, or anything in trying to bring this about?
Because I imagine people hostile to faith may not like that this is something happening and drawing people.
I mean, you you always have detractors.
I would say uh if you don't have any detractors uh for the work that you're doing, it's probably not that important.
Uh and so Jerusalem obviously is a place with significance to a lot of people, and any place that has as much significance as Jerusalem does, you're going to have people who uh are going to be on the other side of that.
And that's okay.
It's been like that for a couple of thousands of years.
Uh, but I think uh certainly if you look uh over the last number of years, uh the interest in what's being unearthed in the city of David is unprecedented.
I think people around the world are looking uh for inspiration or looking for affirmations of their faith, uh looking for the ability to be able to defend themselves uh against the detractors and to know that their faith is real.
And again, we don't need the archaeology uh to prove faith.
Uh faith stands alone, God's word uh does not need people uh to prove it.
But at the same time, it's it's nice to have these affirmations, and it's nice to see that the values uh that our side societies, whether it's the United States, whether it's Israel, uh and some other nations around the world, that that the bedrock that they rest upon is in fact quite solid.
And uh I think that that's something that is only going to increase uh in the future uh as more and more people uh take interest in the ability to literally walk in the footsteps of of their faith of the bedrock of their heritage uh that so much of our lives is built upon.
Can you explain a little bit to us about how do you know that this is historically accurate?
How do you know it's archaeologically true?
I know sometimes there's you know a joke if you travel, they'll say, like, oh, you know, you can buy this and you buy like a star in the sky, or you that you know, this is this crazy thing happened here, and then who knows if it's true, I guess.
But um, can you maybe give us maybe just an example of um kind of how do you guys know that this is archaeologically like um, you know, I guess as you're digging underground, but how do you know that this is like where Jesus was or David was?
How do you know that this is historically like biblically accurate?
So the first thing you'd have to ask is how does archaeology work?
How do you know when you're digging in the ground, is this 200 years old?
Is it 500 years old?
Is it a thousand, two thousand, three thousand years old?
And so the way archaeology works is you dig down and you'll get to a certain layer, and you'll start to find things like pottery, maybe some ancient arrowheads, maybe you'll find some coins, uh things of that nature.
And you know, you're not gonna find, let's say you find a 2,000-year-old coin, many of which the likes of which we find on the pilgrimage road with ancient Hebrew writing on it.
And you're not gonna find next to a coin like that, 2,000 years old or next to some 2,000-year-old uh Roman weapon, you're not going to find a coke can or potato chip wrapper.
Uh, if you do, there's a problem.
Uh and so everything has a layer, and you're able to date things like pottery.
You're able to date the ancient coins, you're able to tell from the weapons, oh, we know that they use this kind of weapon during this time period and this type of weapon in a different time period.
And so there are tools that we have uh in archaeology to understand how to date the various layers.
So generally speaking, when we're excavating, say the pilgrimage road, we know that within the layer where we're finding the pilgrimage road, there are many other things that are being found that date it to the right time period, which is 2,000 years ago around the time of Jesus.
But now, how do we know that it's the pilgrimage road that went up to the temple?
Uh and it's really very simple because when you look at the top of the road, you have the Temple Mount, which is 100% the site where the two temples uh in the Bible stood.
Uh, that is unquestionable.
And then you look at the bottom of the road where you have the pool of Salaam, which is the place where the Bible talks about where everyone would have gone uh to cleanse themselves before going up on pilgrimage to the temple on the Temple Mount.
And it happens to be located exactly where it should be, which is in the city of David, the historic site of biblical Jerusalem.
And so when you take all these things together, it really leads to only one possible conclusion, which is that it is what it is.
It is, in fact, the pilgrimage road, the pool of Salam that we're also excavating as we speak is the same pool, which has deep significance for Christians as well.
Uh also in the Christian scriptures, uh, in terms of events uh account attributed to Jesus, also pool of Ceylon 2,000 years ago in the city of David.
So we have the pool, we have the pilgrimage road itself, we have the Temple Mount.
All three of these things are unquestionable in terms of what they are.
They stand up to the highest levels of uh scientific and academic scrutiny.
Uh, and therefore it's actually uh quite fortunate for us uh that you know, many of the archaeologists who who are carrying out these excavations, they are not uh what they would call religious.
They're maybe may not even be what they would call believers.
And yet these are the same people who are unearthing these treasures who are they themselves saying, well, this is what it is.
Uh and so it's very special when you even have the academic world here in Jerusalem that is able to corroborate these discoveries as in fact being exactly what they are and affirming the foundations of the United States of Israel and of the Jewish and Christian traditions and faith.
Wow, that really is quite fascinating, especially because these are you know things from thousands of years ago.
So the fact that it we can still go and see something like this there is really just fascinating.
Um everyone in my family has now been there now.
You know, my dad, Debbie, Brandon, I am the only one who has not been.
And they've been multiple times.
Like Brandon.
Maybe we had a chance.
When Israel recently, when he was younger, um, on a missions trip, my dad is obviously gone many times, and I've had two babies, so I never get a chance to make it recently to Israel.
But it seems fascinating and I look forward to seeing it when it's it's open to everybody and um I hope that a lot of people look into it because it really would just be fascinating to see and be in a place that is so historically um just powerful.
So maybe last question could be um what is your hope for the next um phase, maybe once you're you're done with this excavation, or maybe you're never done with excavation, but what's kind of the next step well we we still have probably a couple of years to until the pilgrimage road itself will be absolutely complete.
It's gonna be going on for a while.
People are gonna be visiting, they're gonna be able to walk the full length of the road.
But the road itself is quite massive.
And so we're gonna be digging out the road for a while.
And after that, we have some other exciting projects, including uh the unearthing and renovation of what is the King David's Palace excavation, which we could talk about uh another time, but we are going to be uh fully unearthing, God willing, uh the site of what archaeologists believe is the location of King David's Palace and turning that into a very, very special uh experience uh for visitors.
And if the the bigger vision even beyond that goes back some 2700 years to the prophet Isaiah, who speaks of Jerusalem being a house of prayer for all nations.
And uh it would be wonderful if if this could be a place that was so much uh division in the world, uh that Jerusalem could be a place that that unites people uh with common heritage, common values, uh people really can come together uh and connect to something that's really bigger than all of us.
And so that's the ultimate hope and ideal uh behind the project, which is to unearth and share as much of Jerusalem's heritage with as many people as possible.
And hopefully uh that heritage will will help people to uh you know find ways to realize that you know it says in the Bible well we're all created in the image of God.
There's a lot more that that unites us than separates us.
And hopefully this could be a part of uh bringing some of that spirit into the world.
Yes, that would be great.
Well, thank you so much, Zeb for joining us, and we appreciate it, especially with the time difference with you being all the way across the world.
So thank you for being with us.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Well, that wraps up today's show.
If you enjoyed the show, make sure to find me on Facebook, Instagram, X, True Social, Rumble, all the places I'm at Danielle D'Souza Gill.
I will be back tomorrow and see you guys next time.
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