Dinesh D'Souza - THE RISE OF THE DRAGON Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep1180

Oct. 1, 2025 - Dinesh D'Souza

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THE RISE OF THE DRAGON Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep1180

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	Coming up.
	I'm also gonna dive into a certain interpretation of replacement theology, because that's now become part of the right wing attack on Israel and the Jews that somehow the New Testament replaces the old.
	The promises to Israel have been replaced in the era of in the new era with the with the Messiah.
	I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you why I think that this interpretation, this particular way of reading things, is not only mistaken, it is downright unchristian, even anti-Christian.
	And Jonathan Kahn, yes, the man himself, uh the guy who wrote the book that this film is based on is gonna join me.
	Uh, we're going to dive into, well, we're gonna talk about the Trump peace plan, but we're also gonna talk about some deep parallels between what's happening now right in front of us uh and things that happened in the Bible three thousand years ago.
	You're not gonna want to miss this.
	Hey, if you're watching on X Rumble YouTube, uh listening on Apple or Spotify, please subscribe to the channel, hit the subscribe, the follow, the notifications button.
	This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
	America needs this voice.
	The times are crazy in a time of confusion, division, and lies.
	We need a brave voice of reason, understanding and truth.
	This is the Dinesh de Sousa podcast.
	Guys, we are just a uh few days away from the movie The Dragon's Prophecy, opening next week and opening on Monday, October 6th in theaters, and then also on Wednesday.
	So just two days in the theater.
	Tickets are from the website, the Dragons Prophecy Film dot com.
	Try to see it in the theater if you can.
	It is uh experience like no other.
	And it's because you're seeing it with like-minded people, and it's also because there is a kind of uh cinematic quality here that I want you to experience uh and the film is uh is shot.
	I mean, it's uh it looks like a major Hollywood production.
	We figured out how to do do these films very um in a very uh alluring way, um, and yet do it for a uh much more reasonable price.
	We also, as I mentioned yesterday, the kind of creative use of AI in the film.
	I want to talk about one of the themes that is implicit in the film.
	I don't use this phrase, but it's a phrase that's now being debated.
	It's this issue of uh replacement theology.
	And uh I want to focus on one interpretation of replacement theology.
	This seems to be the underlying premise of say Taco Carlson, but also some others.
	The idea here is that the Old Testament has been made obsolete by the New.
	And moreover, that the Old Covenant that God made with Abraham and the house of Abraham is repudiated in the New.
	Once Jesus came, all of that stuff ceased to matter.
	It's like God took it all back.
	Uh, and that the misbehavior of the Jews is the reason.
	It's kind of like the Jews violated the covenant, the Jews in a way precipitated the divorce uh between them and God.
	It wasn't God who did it, the Jews made it happen, their bad behavior.
	Uh And so the Jews are in a way being punished by being put now outside the orbit of God.
	And no, they don't deserve the land.
	And God doesn't want them to have it anymore.
	And so the Jews have got to be content with maybe the desolation, the isolation, being pushed out of their own ancestral land, because it was really never given unconditionally in the first place.
	So that any suffering the Jews have now is going to be their own doing, the pun, the just punishment of God.
	Now, what I want to do is, and Debbie showed this passage to me, this is from the book of Ezekiel, is I want to read some of these verses in Ezekiel and comment on them because they bear directly on this topic.
	And then I'll just sum up on the issue of replacement theology and kind of give you my own view.
	So let's go to the text.
	I mean, I feel a little bit here like I'm being a mini pastor, not my normal uh calling, but nevertheless, I'm gonna do it because of this particular theological debate.
	Son of man, uh, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own ways and deeds.
	To me, their way was like the uncleanliness of a woman in her customary impurity.
	So my comment on that is this.
	It's already the case here that the Jews are acting badly.
	Uh they are betraying God, you can say.
	So this is not something that happened later.
	It's not that God made his promises throughout the Old Testament, and after that Jesus came, the Jews started misbehaving, and guess what?
	God goes, okay, enough.
	It's not your land anymore.
	Here, God is very well aware, right in the Old Testament, the Jews are misbehaving.
	So I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the countries.
	I judge them according to their ways and their deeds.
	So God is saying, uh, I punish the Jews.
	I scattered them.
	Notice, by the way, that this is all occurring in the centuries before Christ.
	And it's referring not to the scattering that occurred at 70 AD when the temple was destroyed by the Romans, it's referring to earlier scatterings when the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel, they deported a bunch of these Jews to Assyria.
	Then the Babylonians came later.
	So there were earlier uh diasporas or scatterings of the Jews.
	That's what the Bible is referring to here.
	Therefore, this is God talking, say to the house of Israel, thus says the Lord God, I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for my holy namesake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.
	So God is about to do something, and he says, Listen, before I do do it, before I tell you what it is, I want you to know that this is not because you have been behaving well, I'm doing it for my own sake.
	I'm doing it because I am God.
	And what is he doing?
	Here we go.
	For I will take you from among the nations.
	Pay attention, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
	Boom.
	This is a prophecy, one of the most important prophecies in the entire Bible.
	God is saying that the Jews will be scattered, and we notice, we know from history, they will be scattered again.
	Uh, and they will be scattered far more and for a very long time, really for two thousand years.
	But here is God saying, I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries.
	God even knows it's not gonna, they're not just gonna be deported to Assyria to Babylon, they will be all over the world.
	And God goes, nevertheless, I'm gonna gather you, I'm going to bring you back.
	So think about what a what a spectacular prediction this is about the future and how remarkable it is that in our own time, really in our own age, in really the middle of the last century, this actually happened.
	This monumental event happened, and God is predicting it, and he did it.
	So, one way you judge prophecy is by whether it comes true, and here it is, it came true.
	Let's go on.
	Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean.
	I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
	So God is saying here, I'll bring the Jews back, and I will, in a sense, purify them.
	In other words, I will rid them of the idols to which they gave their lives before.
	Uh and I will quote, it says, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you.
	I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
	What an interesting phrase, a heart of flesh, a soft heart, in other words.
	Now, this passage is debatable.
	You could say, hey, the Jews are back, uh, but they haven't been purified yet.
	We haven't seen Jews accepting the Messiah.
	We haven't seen the conversion, we haven't seen Jews coming over to Christ.
	So you could say we are in the age where this part of it has not uh fully occurred.
	But the Bible goes on to say, and now I'm in Ezekiel 34, 35, the desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by.
	So they will say, this land that was desolate has become like the Garden of Eden, and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.
	I mean, let that sink in for a moment.
	The Bible is predicting that not only will the Jews come back, but they will come back to a desolate land.
	There will be nothing there.
	And when the Jews came back, they found basically a land largely barren.
	This I'm now almost quoting Ned and Yahu.
	We came to a land that was largely barren and empty.
	Uh and what did the Jews do?
	They did exactly what the Bible predicts.
	They turned it into a sort of garden of Eden.
	And all you have to do now is get in a bus, get in a car, drive up north through the state of Israel, right through the middle, and look to your left and look to your right, and you will see long, as far as the eye can see, um, trees planted, crops, fruit growing, uh, all kinds of vegetables.
	Uh I mean, there's a sense that this land has been turned from a desert into a bounty, uh, a land kind of flowing with milk and honey, a land that is now prosperous, and you only have to see it's not the best piece of land in the world, but the Jews have done a lot with it.
	And then here we go: the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities.
	And that's what was there.
	In fact, there was hardly anything resembling even cities.
	Uh, Tel Aviv, for example, was like a cowtown when the Jews got there.
	Now look at it, are now fortified and inhabited.
	What an interesting combination.
	Not just inhabited, fortified.
	And though so the Bible is is recognizing that when the Jews come back, they are going to come back to a place where they're gonna have to learn to defend themselves.
	Just by the way, like the ancient Israelites, the Jews are gonna have to fight.
	They're gonna have to build a fort, they're gonna have to fortify their new country, and Israel has been fortified, you have to admit, from day one.
	So here we go.
	Uh, this is a, I think, a confirmation that the Bible here is talking about events that are going to happen in the future.
	We're seeing them happen in our lifetime.
	And so, what sense does that make of people who say, well, the Bible's not speaking literally, Dinesh.
	You know, the Jews aren't really going to come back.
	In fact, when Jesus came back, we have, you know, we now have the Christians.
	The Christians are the new Jews.
	So maybe the Christians will return to Israel.
	Maybe the Christians will grow crops, maybe the Christians will make this place.
	No, the Bible is not talking about the Christians here.
	Yes, uh, the Christians are the spiritual Israelites.
	Yes, the New Testament is engrafted on the old.
	Yes, the Messiah is a fulfillment.
	Yes, the new covenant does replace the old, but that's another thing from saying that we don't need the old testament, we don't need God the Father because we now have God the Son and God the Spirit.
	What are you really trying to reduce the Trinity from tree three to two?
	You think you're a Christian by doing that?
	Um what I'm getting at here is that we get the impression sometimes, listening to these debates, that it's a fight between two esoteric sort of interpretations of theology.
	On the one hand, sort of covenant theology, on the other hand, replacement theology.
	I'm not interested in these labels.
	What I'm basically talking about is the mainstream of Christianity, what C.S. Lewis calls mere Christianity, the common understanding of Christianity from the beginning until now.
	And that common understanding is that the New Testament isn't the old concealed.
	Uh, the old testament is in the new revealed.
	Uh, this is a common belief of Catholic and Protestants.
	As far as I know, it's repudiated by no mainstream Christian denomination.
	I don't know what the Mormons think about it, but that's not relevant to this point.
	And I want to quote, I think I've quoted before, but one of the popes, I believe, either Benedict or John Paul II.
	I really need to go into Grok 3 to figure out which of the two it was, who says, it is the holy land for everyone, but it is the promised land to the Jews.
	So think of what is meant by this.
	Let's try to dissect this.
	What I think the Pope is getting at here is he is saying there is a spiritual dimension and there is an earthly dimension.
	The spiritual dimension is that it's the holy land.
	It's not just an ordinary piece of land.
	There is a spiritual and otherworldly and eschatological dimension to all this.
	And yes, the Christians are right to believe that they are the spiritual inheritors of that land.
	Spiritual inheritors in the sense that God, in a sense, manifests himself and in fact delivers salvation through his son, and in fact, only through his son.
	I'm completely on board with that.
	That's mainstream Christian theology.
	I've written several books about it.
	But let's look at the second part.
	It's the promised land to the Jews.
	And here what the Pope is getting at is listen, quite apart from the spiritual dimension, a spiritual covenant that replaces the old covenant, there is an earthly dimension.
	God didn't give a kind of ethereal spiritual blessing to Abraham.
	He said to Abraham, here you go.
	And by the way, he gave the plot in perpetuity, and the way we know that is Abraham is able to pass it down.
	If it's only for Abraham, then God essentially goes back to God when Abraham dies.
	But Abraham can say to Lot, you go this way, I'll go that way.
	Abraham can make these decisions because it is his land to give.
	And so this is the nature, by the way, of any kind of inheritance.
	You buy a piece of land, it's yours.
	And it's yours not for a year or two years.
	You're not leasing the land.
	It's yours in perpetuity.
	If someone gave it to you, it's yours.
	And it's yours forever, and it's yours to give to whoever you want to.
	And so the idea that God would take it back, first of all, there is no indication anywhere in scripture, Old Testament or new, that God is doing this.
	So to me, the idea that these uh divine promises of the Old Testament are somewhat repudiated is just conjured out of thin air.
	It's just completely made up.
	It's based upon the idea that because Jesus said the temple is my body, uh, and um, and I will raise it up in three days because Jesus said that that somehow everything that God said to Abraham is canceled out.
	Jesus didn't mean that.
	Jesus didn't say it.
	Jesus never interpreted an Old Testament passage to mean it.
	And so this is basically, you know, the gospel according to Tucker, or this is the gospel according to Candace.
	Not entirely reliable sources, I would give, I would grant for divine uh inspiration.
	And so this is not, this is not stuff that is discussed in this way in the film, but it's relevant to the film.
	The underlying issues are all in the film, and I think are dealt with with a genuine attempt at allowing God's power and God's will to like pass through us.
	We want to be in making this film just the instrument of that.
	And I want you to see it and feel it as you watch this film.
	So once again, the dragonsprophecy film.com.
	Uh, that's the website.
	I keep repeating it partly because uh people always, you know, I find a bunch of people get it wrong.
	They skip the dragon, a dragon's prophecy or dragon prophecy.
	No, it is the dragons, plural, the dragon's prophecy, P-R-O-P-H-E-C-Y.
	The right, and Debbie's reminding me of something I've said before, but I say it again.
	Don't go to the theater looking for tickets.
	You will not be able to get them there.
	Or don't go to fandango.
	We have bought out hundreds of theaters.
	Uh, And so you can only get tickets through the website.
	But it's really easy.
	You just enter in your zip code, the movie theaters around you pop up, buy your tickets, you're done.
	So that's the way to do it.
	The dragons prophecyfilm.com.
	you won't regret it.
	It's the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.
	The revival of an ancient conflict recorded in the Bible.
	The nation of Israel is a resurrected nation.
	What if there was going to be a resurrection of another people, an enemy people of Israel?
	The Dragon's Prophecy in Theaters October 6th and 8th.
	Streaming and DVDs available October 9th.
	Get the film at the Dragon's Prophecy Film.com.
	When the cultural tide turns against truth, it becomes more important than ever to support the storytellers who are willing to stand for it.
	And this is what Angel is doing.
	They're not just producing entertainment, they're giving a home to stories that reflect the principles this country was founded on: faith, family, and freedom.
	They've released films like Sound of Freedom, which expose the modern day reality of child trafficking when Hollywood refused to touch it.
	They're backing projects like The Last Rodeo and Green and Gold.
	Stories that celebrate Middle America sacrifice and generational legacy.
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	You can join the movement.
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	Go to angel.com/slash dinesh, join the angel guild today.
	Support films that reflect your values.
	Angel.com slash Dinesh.
	Guys, um, a kind of a special treat today.
	And uh this is with the new film, The Dragon's Prophecy opening big next week uh in theaters, also at the middle of the week in streaming.
	Uh I have the inspiration and the star of the film, the guy who wrote the book, the guy who set the stage for this uh remarkable um uh film.
	It's based on a remarkable book.
	And Jonathan Kahn is known worldwide for his great work.
	He has produced the Harbinger, of course, to the uh Dragon's Prophecy.
	His new book, by the way, I should tell you, and we talked about it briefly on the podcast, is the Avatar.
	Uh very astounding uh parallels that he draws out of the um out of the Bible, linking them directly to figures today, including Trump.
	So fascinating stuff.
	Um Jonathan, welcome.
	Uh, thanks for joining me.
	It's so great to so great to have you.
	And I want to go into your own story, and I want to talk about your role in the film.
	But before we do that, as you know, there is a big peace plan on the table.
	Uh, I think somewhat surprising to me.
	Uh it's a plan that has gotten Israel on board.
	Uh, evidently the Europeans are on board, the Canadians, the Australians, a bunch of the Arab countries are on board.
	Qatar has apparently signed off.
	Uh, and the only um blank space on the dotted line is Hamas.
	Um, what do you make of this?
	I mean, looks like Trump is making a real effort to sort of at least temporarily shut down this war and uh and produce a uh an acceptable piece.
	Uh give me your kind of honest take on this plan, and also what do you think is gonna happen?
	Yeah, well, I I think uh, you know, to try to seek to stop this war, uh, you know, I think it's very honorable.
	I think uh it has many elements uh uh that are have some have some a reasonable basis to them, uh, because there's no way you can give this back to Hamas, you know, and that and the plan has uh, you know, a an alternate to that.
	Um, but the only thing is the the problem is what you just said is Hamas.
	You know, Hamas is, you know, again, in we bring it out in the film, it is the the word is also a Hebrew word, not just an Arabic word, which means evil, uh death and destruction or violence and destruction.
	Um, so you know, they are they truly exist to destroy Israel.
	So um, and they have they may see themselves as having very little to lose.
	So it'll it's by by just continuing because they they kind of they kind of thrive on destruction.
	And so uh it'll take a miracle for them to accept it, on the other hand, or some common sense, and we don't know which which it will be.
	Um so it's it's really anybody's guess we because Hamas is the wild card.
	I mean, uh I think what you're saying, Jonathan, when people have a great deal of difficulty getting their head around this, that you could have a group of people, and you have such a little understanding of them, I mean the ordinary person does, that the idea that they would want more death and want more destruction is almost impossible to comprehend, right?
	I remember watching a video of a woman, and she was like, I've given two sons to the war, I've given up their blood, and you expect her to say, I've got two more sons, and I'm certainly not gonna be uh contributing them.
	I want this war to stop right now.
	I've already lost half of my offspring, but no, she goes in the opposite direction.
	I can't wait for my other two sons to become martyrs.
	And I think the ordinary American uh just cannot grasp this psychology.
	It just seems so alien.
	I think one of our themes in the film is it's coming straight from the dragon.
	Yeah, yeah.
	You have, I mean, yeah, and and in the film, something very striking is you have that phone conversation of uh of a of an invader who has who's boasting to his father and his family that he has killed like 10 Israelis with his own hands.
	And instead of them being horrified that their son is a serial killer, they are praise Allah and they are so rejoicing over it.
	It it is something totally different, and it is demonic.
	You know, what happened on Octoberism is demonic.
	Um Hamas is from demonic roots.
	There's even links, as we show, to Hitler and another demonic outbreak.
	Um, so you know, and the other thing is that you have the the the kind of the Philistine mystery here that we get into.
	There's a link here, and and the Bible says about the Philistines in the in who were in the Gaza Strip, and these are like the recurrence of them.
	Um it says they they they have a they have a uh an ageless hatred, uh, and uh a continual uh hatred that just that just was passed down from generation to generation.
	One of the things you see is in the in the film, you see uh children boasting how they want to grow up and kill Jews, you know, and they think it's great, they think it's fun.
	Um, it is a demonic thing.
	And the problem is that when you look at the long picture of the Gaza Strip or that area, uh there's very little times where you really have a peaceful solution.
	It's always been a problem from the time of Joshua coming in there to this day.
	I mean, you have so many wonderful uh analogies that you draw between the Philistines and the Palestinians, their kind of namesake from today.
	But one of them involves uh when David was going up against Goliath, uh, Saul says to David, and you quote him, he says, Listen, uh, you know, you don't want to be fighting this guy.
	He has been a soldier since his childhood.
	And we cite the biblical verse, and then of course we cut right to the Palestinians and how they've got all these kids who are being indoctrinated uh into wanting to have guns and kill the Jews and run over the Jews with a car and stab them.
	And uh so we're not just talking here about uh the fact that there is a kind of onomastic or name similarity between Philistine and Palestinian.
	You're saying that the tactics of October 7th are very familiar to anyone who knows the Old Testament.
	Yeah, and in fact, what happened in in the Bible is that it speaks of the Philistines who dwelt in what we now call the Gaza Strip, um, in launching invasions and raids on the on basically the Israeli villages that were there.
	Uh they were you the kind of outlying frontier uh villages um and raiding them and committing atrocities or bringing them back as uh captives or hostages to Gaza.
	So the whole thing has repeated, and even there's even uh when you take the the places that the Bible speaks about of where these strikes took place, and you take up there's two major areas, one is the negev, and the other is called the Shephala, and where the negative and the Shephala overlap, it's a little small area.
	That's the exact area where that music festival was.
	That's where the that's where the kibbutzes were.
	So yeah, it's a real replaying.
	Nothing new under the sun.
	I mean, you and I talked um at your uh Beth Israel Center in New Jersey.
	And when you mentioned that, we were like, we actually need to go there, uh, not just to the site of the Nova festival, but it was so eerie for me to be in those kibbutzes because uh Lishai Miran, who's the wife of a hostage, and by the way, I saw just in the news yesterday that her husband, uh, according to Hamas has quote disappeared.
	This is not good news because uh, I mean, the guy was alive, they had a propaganda video involving him that we show a glimpse of in the film, but now Hamas claims to have, quote, lost him.
	So I I think unfortunately uh you and I at least have a dark suspicion of what that might mean.
	But you know, we're standing in front of her house, and like she, I ask her, like, where's Gaza?
	And she goes, like, right there.
	It's like a football field away.
	And so you feel the proximity of all this, uh, and then in my mind's eye, I can see all those Hamas guys coming across the fence, raiding right into these kibbutzes, climbing into her home.
	So, I mean, it's amazing to me how, and I think we try to do this in the film, bring the urgency of current events and the footage of October 7th, uh, but then enlarge people's perspective by situating it not just in an historical context, but in a spiritual and and biblical context.
	And that's really what your book uh brings in.
	Talk a little bit about the title, needs a little bit of explanation, the dragon's prophecy.
	So, what is the dragon's prophecy?
	Yeah, there is a, in a sense, a prophecy in the book of Revelation, uh, where it's a vision of a red dragon that appears that is waging war on a woman with 12 stars on her head, uh, who gives birth to the Messiah, could only be Israel.
	Um, and and he he he rages against her, he seeks to destroy her, launches like floods against her.
	Um, and the so you've got the the dragon, which is uh which the book of Revelation identifies, if there's any question, this is a representation of the enemy, or in Hebrew, Satan, Satan, or the devil, that there is a real force of evil um that is a twisting, uh twisted, uh fallen angel, um, and who seeks to destroy the purposes of God, to stop the purpose of God.
	Then you've got a nation that exists, is brought into the world for the purposes of of fulfilling God's purposes in the world.
	Um, and so you're gonna have a war.
	And so the it's an amazing thing is because it's exactly what you have in human history.
	You got a war of of, you know, that against the existence of the Jewish people, whether in Israel or around the world.
	And the thing is that this war's been going on for thousands of years.
	The the names of the enemies keep changing, the people rise and fall, the reasons keep changing, but because it's not about those reasons, there is a real war.
	So what just by that alone, you would expect that cosmic spiritual picture, you'd expect that the Jewish people would become the most warred against people in human history, the most vilified, slandered, accused, um uh attacked, ravaged, uh, wiped out people in the in the history of the world is exactly what they become.
	And the dragon's prophecy is saying, to this day.
	I mean, you look at the world history, it's happening to this day, and yet the miracle is that they still live.
	I remember Jonathan, uh, this is a few years ago now, and looking at the book of Job and studying uh Job, uh I learned that Satan and the Satan, which is referred to in that book, uh, actually means the opposer.
	Uh, and I was like, wow, that's a very interesting um sort of definition, because obviously I just identified Satan with horns and being the devil.
	Uh, but uh you explain, uh you mean you draw this idea out because you say it's not just that his name is the opposer, he looks at what God does and he comes up with his own schemes that are the inverted, uh you call them The inverted angel.
	Give an example of how Satan is doing that.
	God is doing sort of X, and then Satan is doing the exact opposite of X, but it's eerily similar to X. Satan is sort of, it's almost like he's reading out of God's manual, and he goes, Oh, great idea.
	I'll do that on my own side.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Yeah, and October 7th was totally all that.
	On one hand, you know, we we alluded to it, but God resurrects his ancient nation, puts them back in their land.
	And so you have a kind of false resurrection that of an ancient enemy of Israel that exists to war against Israel and what God has done.
	And again, that's what we said for people who don't know the word Palestinian is in in Arabic is Philastini, literally means the Philistines.
	They're in the same place as as the ancient Israelites.
	So the Israelites went back, God raised them up to the land they were at.
	And so at the same moment, or right after it, the this ancient people arises in the form of the ancient enemies of Israel.
	Another one is you know, you hear you hear chanted all over the world, from the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free, which is basically calling for the destruction of Israel.
	But what they people don't realize is that is an inversion, a twisting of the promise that God gave to Abraham and his descendants, saying, I have given you this land from the river to the sea.
	So even that's an inversion.
	Here's another one.
	You know, the the day that uh, you know, the day that uh this all happened was a Hebrew holy day, an appointed holy day of God, you know, which was on one hand it was the Sabbath, actually was three and one, it was the Sabbath.
	It was also the Feast of Tabernacles, a day of rejoicing, and uh where the people go outside and they sing and they dance and clap their hands in joy of God.
	Well, what happened is the enemy takes God's holy day, turns it into a day of mourning for the Israelis, so they're not rejoicing, but in the West Bank and in Gaza and around the uh Islamic world, they're outside in the streets dancing, um, celebrating, clapping their hands.
	And also what you do on this day is you hand out candy, they're handing out candy.
	So it's the it was the the devil's holiday, the inversion of the how the holy day of God.
	Jonathan, you know, in recent decades, um I have seen a an anti-Semitism of the left, which appears to have been a almost a product of their uh their anti-colonialist ideology.
	Uh the Jews are seen as sort of colonial occupiers.
	Now, on the face of it, this to me is laughable because I mean, how do you colonize your own land, right?
	This is like accusing the Irish of colonizing Ireland, the Indians of colonizing India.
	There's an element of absurdity to the whole thing.
	And in fact, you know as well as anyone that what we see in Jerusalem, right there on the temple is a symbol of Islamic colonization, right?
	In other words, you got the holiest site in Judaism and Christianity, the site of Abraham and Isaac, the Solomonic temple later rebuilt by Herod, Jesus was in that temple, and right now the temple is there's nothing left of it except a retaining wall, the so-called uh wailing wall, and then right there, a victory arch, an Islamic victory arch, the dome of the rock adjoined to the Al-Aqsa mosque.
	I mean, you make the point, it's almost as if the dragon himself, I can sort of see this in my mind, is kind of descending on that holy site and sort of sitting on top of it and going, see God, check out where I am.
	You know, photo opportunity.
	I am occupying the holiest side in Judaism and Christianity.
	Yeah, yeah, it exactly.
	It's almost like if it didn't happen, we would say this has to happen.
	Because what is more you know, in line with what we've just said, the the enemy takes the things of God and to use them for his own purposes.
	It says, you know, it says in the in the prophets, uh scriptures that are taken as the voice of Satan saying, uh, from the from ages past, I will ascend.
	I will sit on the the seed of the throne of God.
	Well, on earth, that temple mount is the nearest thing to the throne of God, and so he's he's got it right there.
	And the thing is, and also what you just said about the uh about you know, uh accusing the left accusing the Jewish people of being colonialists.
	Well, well, the the communists uh actually the capitalists said That the Jews were communists.
	You know, that the left said that the right, the right said that they're left.
	It's always the alien, it's always the enemy.
	And the other thing is that what the enemy seeks to do is to preempt the purpose of God.
	The Temple Mount is like the ground zero of end time prophecy.
	It's the place where the kingdom of God has to center, the throne of God, the where Messiah will come.
	So what does he do?
	He sets up an obstacle right there, you know, in the center of the temple mount.
	Not only that, the eastern gate.
	You know, that's supposed to be a gate that that God goes through, the king goes through.
	Well, he walls it up.
	So yeah, you know, it it is so in in some ways it's so obvious of the enemy, but it's exactly what we would expect.
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	Now we've seen Jonathan, and I want to get into this a little bit, and you're the perfect guy to talk to about it.
	We have seen this kind of attack on Israel and the Jews from the right.
	Um I don't for the moment want to use the anti-Semitic label.
	I just want to look at what they're saying.
	And what they seem to be saying is, Jonathan, get with the program.
	The moment Jesus came, all of the old testament stuff is uh is obsolete.
	In other words, the moment Jesus came, uh I take them to be saying we don't really even kind of need the old testament or the Hebrew scriptures.
	Jesus is the temple, Jesus is the fulfillment.
	Uh essentially you could say that the new covenant has replaced the old.
	God has sort of taken back his promises to Abraham, or they no longer apply, or the Jews have misbehaved, and so they have themselves torn up their side of the contract.
	Now, all of this makes me slightly sputter and be ready to like uh, you know, launch rhetorical missiles, but I'm gonna hold back and ask you to analyze for us this remarkable critique and and also give us a way of how you think about it.
	Yeah, well, it goes and goes back to what's called supersessionism or replacement theology, which is, you know, again, it's human nature because what happens is when the the church, the quote church became established in Rome and the West and uh kind of and got cut off from its Jewish roots, it was also we are the kingdom now, and we don't need Israel to come back.
	We don't want Israel to come back.
	We are the kingdom, we have replaced them.
	Well, that's human nature, but it's not the Bible.
	You know, the in fact, when when it the first mention of the new covenant in Jeremiah 30, it says that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel.
	So it's first, you know, and Paul said to the Jew first and then to the world.
	So it doesn't, you know, the new covenant fulfills, it doesn't destroy, you know, and and that you know, you don't have a messiah without that.
	You know, if you look at how many times the Hebrew scriptures are referenced in the New Testament, it's massive.
	Even the book of Revelation, massive.
	Um, and so he says, I didn't come to destroy these things, he came to fulfill them.
	He God made very clear uh promises to Israel, they are without end.
	It says, it says to it says continuously or forever.
	And so he has given the land to them.
	He doesn't he doesn't cut that off.
	He ends up saying he say it says that he will he will the Jewish people will be scattered to the ends of the earth, they will be gathered back to the land of Israel, and then the world will come against Israel and Messiah will come, you know.
	So this is all coming true.
	And you know, sometimes what the church does, or some people do, they say, Well, yeah, the curses are for Israel, but not the promises.
	You know, we got the promises, but they keep the curses, or he scattered them.
	Well, listen, if he scattered them, then it's a God says, I will gather those who I scattered.
	So the same people are back.
	And then Paul said, I mean, if you if you need something outright, Paul said, did God reject his people, Israel?
	He says, God forbid.
	He says that God will keep all his covenants and don't boast against them.
	Unfortunately, we've kind of forgotten the warning that Paul gave.
	So in fact, when Messiah was leaving this world, the last thing his disciples asked him, he said, Is it at this time you're gonna restore the kingdom to Israel?
	And the and the and Jesus didn't say, Oh, oh no, you got theology wrong, he's all fit.
	No, he said it's not for you to know when, but you spread the gospel, you know.
	So it's very clear when he comes back, he's not coming back to Rome, he's not coming back to Russia, he's coming back to Jerusalem with his people.
	In fact, he says, I will not come again until my people say, Baruch Abba, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
	You need Israel for that.
	Debbie and I were um, this is on our first trip to Israel.
	We were in the town uh called Magdala, and there's a the ruins of an old synagogue.
	Uh Magdala, of course, is uh Mary Magdalene is Mary of Magdalah, and the likelihood is very high, because this is right in the region that Jesus was, that Jesus would have taught uh in and out of that exact synagogue.
	I think people forget uh that the world of Jesus was a Jewish world.
	His name is Jewish.
	This is the point Netanyahu makes in the film, his dad is Yosef, you know, his mother is Miriam.
	So you got you have this kind of Jewish ambiance.
	Jesus is standing in a synagogue, he's holding the scriptures, but what are the scriptures?
	He's not holding uh the book of Acts.
	Uh, he's holding the Old Testament.
	He's holding the Hebrew scriptures, he's teaching out of the Hebrew scriptures.
	Those are the only scriptures that exist in Jesus' time.
	So, you know, to me, this notion that somehow you can uh separate the New Testament from the old, um, when it is so clear that the new testament is engrafted onto the old.
	Um this I find very disturbing.
	Uh and uh and in some ways it seems to be almost becoming a new pretext for a kind of theological anti-Semitism that I did not expect to see in my lifetime.
	Yeah, which has which has been, you know, on one hand that has been the case in for you know for ages past, this is what part of the of Christendom embraced because again, human nature, we are the ones, not Israel.
	But the thing is that that it's coming back now, and it's coming back to the right.
	And by the way, I love in the film that you have Benjamin Netanyahu to begin with, and he's Benjamin Netanyahu saying Yeshua and and speaking of the Jewishness of Messiah.
	That's I mean, that's awesome to begin with.
	That it wouldn't even happen years ago.
	That's amazing.
	Um, and so absolutely you cannot divorce it.
	I mean, you know, when when when Paul says you have been grafted in, if you're not born Jewish by birth, you are now reborn Jewish, you are now of God's Israel, and you Are grafted in with the Jewish people in it says in their olive tree.
	He said, therefore, do not boast against them.
	Well, that's it.
	You know, it's like a branch cutting itself off from a tree.
	That's that's not gonna speak well for the branch.
	It's gonna dry up.
	You know, and so we are witnessing that.
	And the other thing that's kind of that's concerning is that it's one thing for the left to be against Israel.
	Right now, the Democratic Party, just in the last few years, turned into a majority anti-Israel party by all the polls.
	Just switched.
	I mean, massively.
	And at the same time, but but the support for Israel is among the conservatives now in America, among the right, among Christians, of course.
	And without that, you might not have America supporting Israel.
	And so to uh so now that's being attacked.
	That's the more dangerous thing.
	And I don't fear for Israel, I fear for America.
	You have this, I think, very beautiful phrase in the film where you talk about the Christian as a spiritual Israelite.
	Uh, and this kind of leads to the the take-home of the film, which I don't mind uh you know, sharing.
	This is not like spoiling the film or anything like that.
	Uh, and by the way, guys, we're talking about the dragon's prophecy.
	The website is the dragonsprophecyfilm.com.
	Uh, by the way, movie tickets, you can't buy them at the theater.
	Don't go to the theater and say, I want to buy tickets, you gotta buy them off the website.
	So, round up your Bible study group, your family, your friends.
	Go see it in the theater.
	This is a very cinematic film.
	It's got haunting and beautiful music.
	The theatrical experience is very unique.
	Now, I understand if you want to watch it at home, you'll be able to do it the middle of the week.
	But all tickets at the dragonsprophecy uh film.com.
	So uh Jonathan, what I was getting at was your uh idea that what uh what we're seeing now in perhaps the last age is a revival of things as they were in the beginning.
	It's like we're all going back, right?
	The the Jews are back, the ancient enemies of the Jews are back in a new form, but there they are, and they're using the same tactics.
	And part of your take-home is that you know, we Christians need to get back as well.
	Well, get back to what?
	Yeah, yeah, it's you know, history, you know, it says as you're talking of these things just coming out.
	God said that he placed Israel in the center of nations, and and and you know, the the cosmic story follows Israel, you know, and and history follows Israel.
	So now, if the Jewish people have returned back to where they were at the beginning of the age, and it hasn't been until basically our generation, they returned back, and everything, by the way, everything is returning back.
	You know, you you had a pagan, anti uh anti-uh Christian pagan world civilization back then, Rome in the West.
	Now the West is reverting, is going back to that.
	Well, then we have to go back as believers.
	So what were we?
	Where were we at the beginning of the age?
	That was the book of Acts.
	We need to go back to that revolutionary, that on fire, that world-changing, that unstoppable, that radical, that that uh that basically that movement, those people that changed the history of the world.
	They didn't maybe have a they didn't have a lot of worldly power, but they were filled with the power of God.
	They were radical, they weren't so much cultural as counter-cultural.
	Um, they were they were in status quo, they weren't comfortable, they were revolutionary.
	And we need to go back, that's the to the apostles to live as if we were in the book of Acts, because in one ended on the other sense, we're coming back.
	So Israel's coming back, and the other thing about it is the Bible doesn't just say, you know, we we can say, well, okay, I'm spiritually Jewish, um, I'm an Israelite spiritually.
	Well, you their word Israelite is not in the Bible.
	I mean, it's in the English, but it's not, but in in the Hebrew, it says Israeli or Yisraeli.
	And it means that even Israel is a sign to us because Israel, when they came back to the land, they realized they had a fight.
	They had to learn how to fight, learn how to stand right down by the dragon, by the enemy and his forces.
	Well, we have to learn the same thing in the spirit.
	We have to, in the end, in the last days, we have to be fighters.
	We have to be, we have to be those who are strong and stand up again, not against people, but against evil.
	And and as the Israelis are in the world, we are to be in the spirit.
	I was so struck.
	I mean, Debbie And I both were at Charlie Kirk's funeral, the memorial service, to see all these top figures in the government, not just generically invoking God, but specifically invoking Messiah and Jesus.
	And the emphasis was on the need to recognize that we're in a spiritual war.
	It's good versus evil.
	But the theme at the end of it was restoration, was renewal, was the need for a kind of third great awakening in this country.
	And isn't it amazing?
	I mean, we made this film, Jonathan, together.
	I still remember when we first uh I had you on my podcast, and then I it kind of it crossed my mind, Debbie and I looked at each other and we're like, these are a lot of the things we've been talking about.
	We gotta, we need to get with this guy.
	And so we hatched this many, many months ago.
	Uh, and then of course, there's the duration of the filming and the editing, but who would know that the film would be timed in such a way?
	Neither of us could have set the time, the clock.
	And there is a mood and a yearning and a desire for national renewal and and even global spiritual renewal.
	And I want this film to be a part of that.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, this is well, it yeah, it's incredibly timely uh for that and for the fact that there is also so much warfare, you know, i in among even in America over Israel at the same time.
	And these are the two kingdoms of God, Israel in the flesh and blood and Israel in the spirit, and both are centerful.
	We're at a critical time, I believe.
	I mean, I don't know.
	This also goes with the avatar.
	We've spoken about it.
	We are in a critical moment.
	We've got a window uh for revival.
	So for revival, and at the same time, we're watching a, you know, uh the the assassination of Charlie Kirk was like a spiritual, it was like a spiritual war for America overflowing into flesh and blood.
	I mean, he was one of the generals, you know, struck down, and yet what the enemy used for evil, God will use for good.
	And so in the same way, there's a spiritual war, or there's a war dealing with Israel.
	So I believe it couldn't be more timely.
	And of course, nobody had control over it, but it is that's why I believe it is so important.
	And I believe that you were inspired to do that.
	God do the timing.
	But I believe that's why it's so important that people can bring out not just go out and see it, but bring out people who need to see it, who are getting all these other things.
	Um, and it's getting it from a biblical, you know, ground grounding what this is all about, Israel and all these things.
	So I'm also hoping that pastors will bring will tell their churches and and bring out churches, but it's so important.
	No, absolutely.
	The um this has been really great.
	Um, and uh, you know, guys, there's a there's a little bit of a shallow, uh, poisonous debate out there on this topic.
	Uh, what we try to do in this film is is raise the level.
	I mean, I I don't hesitate to be in the political at the ground level, uh, take on these specific attacks from the left and the right.
	But in the end, the film, in a sense, ascends uh and and and introduces the realm of the biblical, uh, the archaeological, the historical, the prophetic.
	So let's just say it's of a whole different caliber than anything that's out there now, like on TikTok or on Twitter.
	This is the kind of film that will not only inform you, but I think at the end of the day, it will edify you.
	So go to the dragonsprophecyfilm.com.
	As always, I've been talking to uh the one and only Jonathan Kahn.
	Jonathan, thank you for the time.
	By the way, I know your new book, The Avatars, Rocketed to Number One.
	Uh, you are you know how to get this done, uh, and you are a very powerful presence uh in this film.
	So it's really been fun talking to you as always.
	Uh and uh and I'm delighted to be uh partnered with you on this on this venture.
	Thank you.
	And it's an honor to be partnering with you, and you did an amazing job.
	It's incredibly powerful.
	Thank you, Dinesh.
	Thank you.

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