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Nov. 15, 2024 - Dinesh D'Souza

50:13

THE GAETZ OF HELL Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep961

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	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Biden has a big smile on his face.
	I'll explain what that means.
	I'm also going to talk about the, to the left, shocking appointment of Matt Gaetz as the Attorney General and I'll explore the possibilities for his confirmation.
	information.
	Alex Marlowe, editor of Breitbart News and a new podcaster on the Salem Podcast Network is joining me.
	We're going to talk about the election aftermath, Trump appointments, and what 2025 might bring.
	Hey, if you're watching on Rumble or YouTube or listening on Apple, Google, or Spotify, please subscribe to my channel.
	This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
	America needs this voice.
	The times are crazy and a time of confusion, division, and lies.
	We need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth.
	This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
	Here's a line from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar.
	Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
	And that's what's going on with Trump right now.
	He is unleashing on the Democrats and this You can almost look at bloodhounds and they are charging forward and the left is in complete disbelief and panic and disarray.
	Now, I'll come to some of these appointments and I want to talk notably about the most, to the left, upsetting of all, to us perhaps the most delightful or felicitous of them all, Matt Gaetz.
	And Debbie and I were chatting last night about, what should we call the podcast tomorrow?
	I'm like, well, how about the gates of hell?
	Because we're opening up the gates of hell in a good way.
	And letting out some of our own demons.
	And I'm using that term somewhat ironically or sarcastically.
	Now look, Trump is in a really strong position for four reasons.
	One, He won the election, the electoral majority.
	And it wasn't all that close.
	Trump, 322.
	Harris, if I'm remembering correctly, and I'm not far off, about 246.
	So that is almost 100 electoral votes separating the two of them.
	And the reason for that difference is that Trump swept the swing states.
	Frankly, who would have expected him to do it?
	Not me.
	And so in that sense, even though I predicted Trump would win, and as you saw, I collected $1,000 from Debbie before she asked for the money back.
	Rub it in.
	Debbie's like, rub it in.
	I think Debbie still is stinging from the moral defeat.
	Debbie, by the way, hates to be wrong.
	Hates to be wrong.
	When I first met her, I asked her, have you ever been wrong?
	She goes, yeah, you know, many years ago, I thought I was wrong, but of course I was mistaken.
	I was actually right, but that's the only time...
	So this was a bit of a cruel blow for her because she trusts in the famous Deborah D'Souza instinct.
	And she goes, I don't care about the polls.
	I'm kind of going to go with my instinct.
	Oops.
	But having said this, I got to say that I was wrong myself in underestimating the magnitude of the Trump victory.
	Look, I was still pretty close on the mark.
	I'll tell you who was really wrong.
	Election Nostradamus.
	I don't know if you know about this guy.
	This is a professor named Alan Lichtman.
	He's an extremely weird-looking guy.
	He kind of has a face of a sort of a spider, an extremely elongated face, and wizened, piercing eyes.
	He also has an unbelievably high opinion of himself, and he supposedly has these magic keys.
	He calls them his 13 keys.
	And he's used these keys, he claims, over a period of like 150 years.
	And he says his keys predict every single election.
	So he obviously thinks he's a kind of a wizard, a kind of a Nostradamus.
	And of course, he predicted...
	Emphatically that Kamala Harris was going to sweep the election.
	So now he's on TV and he's trying to explain how he got it wrong.
	Like, what happened to your keys, Nostradamus?
	Like, did you forget your keys or did your keys not really work?
	You forget to tune your instrument?
	What happened?
	And Nostradamus, i.e.
	Alan Lickman, goes, well, he goes, the reason that my keys didn't work is that they're dependent on...
	Certain strange and unexpected developments not occurring.
	So according to him, these strange and unexpected developments have occurred.
	And what are those unexpected developments?
	He goes, number one, he goes conservative media.
	Fox News, he goes, Elon Musk, conservative podcasts.
	He goes, all of these people spreading disinformation.
	So what he's actually trying to say is if it hadn't been for Elon Musk, if it hadn't been for Fox News, if it hadn't been for conservative media, in other words, if all of us had been parroting his talking points, Kamala would have won.
	Well, yeah, but...
	That's basically like saying, if the entire country thought like me, I'd be right all the time.
	I guess so.
	Good work, Alan Lichtman.
	We'll keep this in mind the next time you put your famous keys to work.
	All right.
	Here's another guy.
	And here I'm now...
	Pivoting briefly to the issue of the Trump-Biden meeting.
	And all I want to say about that is, did you see the big smile on Biden's face?
	This guy was like downright beaming.
	I haven't seen him beam like that and I don't even know how long.
	He looks genuinely happy.
	And interestingly, Jill Biden is wearing a kind of red outfit.
	So all of this is all very interesting, and some people on the left are very unnerved by this.
	Here's a guy, I don't know who he is, but he's on social media.
	He goes, if Trump is a threat to democracy, as Biden has said, and a fascist, as Harris has said, why is the administration treating this transfer of power as normal?
	Here's my reply to him.
	Your question answers itself.
	Let me help you out logically.
	Quote, if pigs can fly, why don't we see pigs flying?
	Because the premise is false and pigs can't fly.
	In other words, Trump is not a threat to democracy.
	Harris is not right when she calls him up.
	These things were never true.
	And so the fact that they're now engaging in a normal transfer of power becomes a refutation of all the vile things you said about Trump that were never true.
	But now you said that they were true and now you're acting as if they aren't true because you know they aren't true as well as we do.
	Now, the Matt Gaetz appointment, and I'll introduce it, but I'm going to say, talk about it further in the next segment.
	This is an appointment that was calculated to shock.
	And I think Trump knew it.
	In fact, I saw, I don't know if you saw this, but John Fetterman was asked about the Trump appointments.
	He goes, I have to say that this is God-level trolling of the left.
	Yeah.
	God level.
	So, Fetterman, I think, Fetterman actually gets what's going on, which is that Trump is basically saying, Trump is probably looking at some candidates.
	Oh, let's see.
	I have this guy, I have this guy, I have Matt Gaetz.
	Now, let me see which of these three appointments would drive the left the most insane.
	Obviously, Gaetz.
	Let's go with Gates.
	Gates it is.
	So Trump knows exactly what he is doing.
	But that being said, it's important to know that let's look at Gates's personality and let's look at why Trump might have selected him.
	I'll take a pause and when I come back, I'll give you the answer to that.
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	I'm talking about Matt Gaetz and the distinguishing quality of this guy is his resolute and fearless independence.
	And I say this because these qualities of resolute, fearless and independence are not valued in the US Congress.
	Quality that is valued in the US Congress is being a team player, getting along.
	But the meaning of that, the practical consequence of that, by and large, getting along, being a team player is not bad.
	Politics is fought, in fact, in teams.
	However, the downside of that is that you get elected to Congress Let's take my son-in-law, Brandon Gill.
	He's elected to Congress by a conservative, red, pro-Trump constituency that sends him off to Washington to represent them.
	He gets there.
	Now what happens?
	Well, what happens is that you've got a Republican leadership.
	Who's the leadership?
	Mike Johnson, Steve Scalise.
	These are, by and large, establishment guys.
	And what they say to all these congressmen who have all been elected by their own constituencies is, you come here to Washington, transfer all of your power to us.
	In other words, let us from now on tell you what to do.
	We are going to develop our strategy.
	We're going to develop certain bills, omnibus bills.
	We're for this.
	We're against that.
	We decide.
	We then inform you of our decision.
	We've decided to slash this out of the omnibus bill, but otherwise we're okay with it.
	We are calling to make sure we can count on your vote.
	Now, this is a little disturbing, right on the face of it, because what they're doing is they're canceling out Brandon's constituency.
	And I'm only using him as a stand-in for a general point I'm making.
	All representatives are in this position, where they're essentially told that their power is now deflected onto this collective Republican establishment that is going to be leading the brigade.
	Matt Gaetz does not take this view.
	And the key point of it is not just that Matt Gaetz has the temperament, but Matt Gaetz also has the ability to pull it off.
	Why?
	Because he comes from an extremely rich family.
	He can fund his own campaigns.
	The normal penalties that they can impose on you as a congressman are things like, hey, listen, if you don't...
	If you don't go along, we're not going to help fund your campaign.
	Good luck raising money on your own.
	And we're not going to stand by you.
	We're going to treat you as...
	By the way, look at the way the Republicans have treated people like Carrie Lake.
	We'll treat you like a pariah if you don't play on the team.
	And Matt Gaetz is like...
	Do it.
	And so, single-handedly, Matt Gaetz brought down Kevin McCarthy, the former Speaker of the House.
	Now look, even at the time, I said, this is a risky gambit.
	It's debatable whether this is the right way to go.
	And even if you succeed, there's a certain downside in you succeeding.
	First of all, how do you know that the replacement is going to be a lot better than Kevin McCarthy?
	You actually don't.
	You're also going to make yourself something of a pariah in this go-along, get-along outfit.
	So, Matt Gaetz knew all that.
	But nevertheless, he pushed ahead, he took the gamble, and he was successful.
	He is a rare example of someone who, had he not done that, I believe, and by the way, Kevin McCarthy knows this, Kevin McCarthy would probably still be the speaker right now.
	And I don't know if we're in a better position.
	I think we are.
	But this shows strength.
	And I think this is what Trump sees in Matt's gates.
	He sees, look, the Attorney General is going to come under a lot of pressure from a lot of people who, oh, you can't do that.
	That's against the law.
	No, there's an honorable tradition of not doing it that way.
	You can't indict any Democrats.
	Republicans don't do that kind of thing.
	And you need somebody at the attorney general level who says to the guy who says that, I don't want to hear that from you.
	And if you keep telling me this, you're going to be asked to vacate your desk and leave because otherwise you're going to be fired.
	And so you need someone with that kind of strength.
	And I will say that the typical Republican does not have that kind of strength, and Matt Gaetz does.
	Now, the left is going to pull out all the stops.
	I can already see all this talk about, well, this is a guy who was accused of doing this with underage girls.
	Well, let's be very clear that the DOJ under Biden and Harris were trying to make a case against Matt Gaetz based upon some report involving underage girls.
	They were never able to make that case.
	They never brought that case.
	In order to humiliate Matt Gaetz, they leaked out information acting like this is true, even though we're not bringing the case.
	This is typical police state sleazeball tactics.
	This is exactly why we need Matt Gaetz to fire all these people and root them out of the government.
	So in other words, to me, this is an indication for Matt Gaetz and not against him.
	Never were any charges brought against him.
	Nothing has been proved.
	And in a society where you are innocent until proven guilty, I don't think any significance should be attached to this kind of leak.
	Now, will Matt Gaetz's nomination be turbulent?
	For sure.
	We do not have a decisive majority in the Senate.
	If we had 50 conservatives, 50 plus conservatives in the Senate, I would say it's a done deal.
	But there definitely are going to be some Republicans who have doubts about Matt Gaetz, and so it's going to be fiery.
	On the other hand, they're going to want to also oblige Trump.
	So there's going to be a strong desire.
	And by the way, a lot of these Republicans that I'm talking about voted for Merrick Garland.
	And they voted for Merrick Garland not because they like Merrick Garland, but their view was, hey, listen, Biden has a right as the president to have his own cabinet.
	Now, how can you do that and then turn around and say Trump doesn't?
	Trump has a right to select his own cabinet.
	Yes, there's advice and consent by the Senate, but the Senate is generally deferential to the choices of the president.
	And so, for these reasons, I think Matt Gaetz should be confirmed, but I don't know if he will be.
	It's going to be, as I say, a battle.
	But it could be that Trump can still have Matt Gaetz in as a recess appointment.
	I'm going to have Alex Marlowe from Breitbart.
	He's also starting a podcast on Salem coming on next.
	And I'm going to ask him about all this, whether it is possible for Trump to have Matt Gaetz as the Attorney General, even if Matt Gaetz is unable to secure a majority of people to approve his nomination in the Senate.
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	Guys, we're in a whole new era, and I'd like to invite you to check out my Locals channel.
	You can support my work by becoming an annual subscriber.
	I post a lot of exclusive content there, including content that you won't see anywhere else, sometimes content that's censored on other social media platforms.
	On Locals, you get Dinesh Unchained, Dinesh Uncensored.
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	I'd love to have you along for this great ride again.
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	Guys, I'm very happy to welcome back to the podcast our friend Alex Marlowe.
	He's the editor-in-chief of Breitbart News.
	And guess what?
	His show, The Alex Marlowe Show, is now also going to be on the Salem Podcast Network.
	So it's salempodcastnetwork.com.
	His own website is alexmarlowe.com.
	Alex, great to have you.
	Thanks for joining me.
	And of course, welcome to the Salem operation.
	I gotta tell you, it's a pretty ramshackled operation, but nevertheless, we're delighted to have you on board.
	Let me start by asking you about this kind of blizzard of Trump appointments that are coming down fast and furious.
	I think I have to say that the one that seems to have landed like an atom bomb in Washington, D.C. is the Matt Gates appointment.
	Do you agree that that is the ultimate freak-out appointment?
	And weigh in on your thoughts about what you think Trump is up to now.
	I think there's a real difference of mood from 2016.
	Do you agree?
	And what does it all mean?
	Yeah, so in 2016, and Dinesh, of course, always great to be with you.
	We've known each other for such a long time.
	For the audience, I'm sure I mentioned this last time I was on the show, but I hosted Dinesh as a young whippersnapper on campus when I was at UC Berkeley.
	This was almost 20 years ago.
	And Dinesh was not the household name that he was today.
	It was an amazing event and something that I remember so vividly, and it was a big part of me joining conservative activism.
	So it's really fun that we get to have this conversation together.
	I'm so happy to be here.
	But you're right about the Gates appointment.
	This is the ultimate freakout.
	It's so fun for me because I love to try to understand Trump's 4D chess and try to understand what he's really thinking when he does these things.
	And in 2016, his move was to try to co-opt the establishment.
	He thought that his best bet at having successful administration was to cozy up with a lot of guys who were globalists, people who were in the Republican establishment.
	The first major thing he took on was a Paul Ryan led health care reform, which failed thanks to John McCain.
	And that is not what he's doing now, obviously, if you look at the cabinet.
	And the ultimate middle finger to the fake news and the haters and losers is the Gates appointment.
	But it's so crazy it might work.
	And I was going through this with my team.
	And there's this concept called a recess appointment, which really kind of came into vogue with Barack Obama, where whenever the Senate goes to recess, the president can appoint someone for two years.
	So I at first thought that this was some sort of a stocking horse where Gates is going to get all the attention.
	Everyone else is going to get approved.
	Gates won't get approved.
	Dinesh, that might happen, and Gates still might get recess-appointed and be the Attorney General for two years.
	Unbelievable.
	All the bad guys hate it.
	Alex, you alluded to two things that need to be put into slow motion because our people need to get a better understanding of it.
	So let's start with the first one.
	The first one is the, let's call it the rabbit theory.
	And the rabbit theory, which was alluded to by Jonathan Turley in his column this morning, is the idea that Trump appoints a bunch of guys designed to drive the left insane, but they cannot fight on every front.
	And they also recognize there's a very pro-Trump mood, even in the Senate, and there's going to be a desire to want to confirm all the Trump appointees.
	So the left is probably going to have to decide to focus its fire on one guy.
	And so the idea is, let them focus their fire on Matt Gaetz, and meanwhile we get everybody else through.
	And then even if the Matt Gaetz appointment fails, basically Trump swaps him out for Ken Paxton or somebody else who's going to be just as ferocious, and we're off to the races.
	That's sort of idea number one, but you're saying that idea number one could be combined with idea number two, which is the concept of a recess appointment.
	Explain what that really is, because I think it's obviously not customary on the Republican side to do these kinds of shenanigans, but it looks like we're learning from the other side.
	Which we've always wanted, Dinesh.
	I know you've wanted this and I've wanted this, and we were maybe early on saying that we need to start seeing what they're doing right and adopting it.
	And this would be one of those things.
	Really, the concept of it, it goes back into ancient American history, so to speak, where it was really designed in case When you couldn't just fly across the country easily, and let's say we were in a war and Senate was recessed for months, that the president who needed to make some sort of a big-time military or defense appointment, he didn't have to wait for the whole Senate to all come back or half the Senate to come back to Washington.
	That's where it came from.
	But then Barack Obama started using it just to get the cabinet he wanted.
	And so Trump is probably thinking, well, I might borrow that tactic.
	That might work for me.
	And he's trying to do it, if he does it, with a lot of the guys who even the rhino softies are not going to go for because they just can't abide by Trump's version of Republican politics.
	So it is at his disposal.
	The left started it.
	We would just be borrowing the tactic.
	Now, let's look at Trump's foreign policy appointments.
	Pete Hexed, of course, at Defense, Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, Tulsi Gabbard at Intelligence.
	And...
	What does this tell you?
	Because I saw that there was some libertarian resistance to both Hegsat and Rubio on the grounds that these are sort of like warmonger types.
	And of course, these same people are very excited about Tulsi Gabbard because they think she's coming from a different angle altogether.
	If you had to try to make sense of Trump's foreign policy over the next four years, what can we derive from Yeah, so this is a great question because I've noticed that I was thinking about this earlier in the day, how they really have complementary skill sets.
	They're not the same skill sets.
	And I give Trump a lot of credit in that regard, is that these are not cookie cutter.
	These are people who come from completely different places, completely different backgrounds, and their passions are different.
	Rubio is...
	I have a lot of issues with his domestic policy, though he seemed to have come around, particularly that he was a part of the Gang of Eight amnesty push.
	But I think he would be amazing in this role because he's a China hawk and he's extremely pro-Israel.
	And this is where, Dinesh, and I imagine you're with me on this, that a lot of the right is becoming increasingly not- I'm content to defend Israel and help Israel, and I'm still with Israel and a Zionist through and through.
	Rubio gets that, but he's really internalized all of Trump's foreign policy.
	I think he's incredibly tough on China and has always been great on China, our number one geopolitical foe.
	So it's a great job for him.
	Tulsi is just a skeptic of all foreign intervention, and that's great.
	I remain skeptical of the fact that anyone who could be a Democrat in Congress for eight years is odd to me, but...
	I've interviewed Telsey.
	She's a great American.
	And the role at DNI is going to be, I think, to see where the fat can be cut, where the deep staters are within the intelligence ranks, and then try to communicate to Trump what is the actionable intelligence that we're getting.
	I see no reason why she wouldn't be very good in that role.
	And Hegseth, everyone likes Hegseth.
	He is Harvard-trained, Princeton-trained, he's a veteran, he's someone who advocates on behalf of veterans, and he's taken up the mantle as the guy who goes against the woke generals.
	And the woke generals are the problem with our military, and Hegseth has been one of the most vocal guys against them.
	So, again, it all works to me.
	Dinesh, I would love to interview you and get your take, because it works for me.
	I'm not sure why it works, but it does.
	It all works for me.
	Well, I think what you're saying and I think this is actually very interesting and important is that A lot of times in some of these things, I take my cues from Reagan.
	And the way I think about Reagan was that Reagan understood that in the Cold War, a certain amount of counter-aggression was very important against the Russians because they were just on a rampage.
	They had taken 10 countries between 1974 and 1980.
	So Reagan realized that we have to push hard against those guys.
	But at the same time, We're good to go.
	So Reagan, in one man, combined this kind of tough guy approach to the military with an understanding that we don't really want to send Americans into war unless this is absolutely necessary.
	I think what you're saying is that Trump is appointing a range of appointees Who differ in their sensibilities, but may collectively bring precisely this kind of balance in which we have a strong foreign policy.
	We're not the pansies of the world, but at the same time, we are not going to promiscuously deploy troops in the way that, quite honestly, George W. Bush did to our regret.
	That's incredibly well put.
	It is a peace through strength attitude that Trump has had.
	That's why he's such an exemplary foreign policy the first time around.
	And people who have internalized that, I think, are the ones who are going to be elevated to these posts.
	It's not people who are going to be the Liz Cheney wing.
	We're bombing people wherever we can so that we enrich defense contractors.
	Those people are out.
	These people who he's appointing, he's breaking the mold that has been set by Washington over the past several decades that we are just going to take people from the boards of defense contractors and then we're going to make them secretaries.
	He's not doing that.
	That is very welcome.
	That said, I want to make sure we have the best military in the world.
	And Pete Hegseth, a guy who's going to clean out woke generals...
	That's going to help us.
	That's going to make us a stronger military.
	So you get the Telseys who don't want any intervention.
	Great.
	And you get Pete who wants to help clean up the military.
	Great.
	You get Marco who understands the real threats are China first, among other things.
	It's just a really great balance, I think, of personality so far.
	I mean, one thing I would add on the Rubio front, I'm kind of putting in a picture for my wife, Debbie, who's from Venezuela, is that the Venezuela model is the one that the Democrats seem to have adopted for this country, which is rigged elections, suppressing opponents, and criminalizing political differences.
	Setting up a socialist society with a kind of ruling class of Chavistas.
	But by the way, Venezuela has active intervention from Russia, from Iran, from China.
	And nobody knows the Venezuela situation better than Rubio.
	In fact, Debbie was reminding me the other day that she had had a conversation with Bolton.
	And this was now several years ago.
	But Debbie was talking to Bolton about the political parties in Venezuela.
	And Bolton was like...
	Really?
	Oh, Coppe?
	Oh, Action Democratica?
	He had no idea.
	This guy's supposed to be like the great walking authority, but Rubio has an in-depth understanding of that situation, really second to none.
	He's probably one of the best-informed people in the United States on that subject.
	Yeah, well said.
	And this is why our world editor, Frances Martella Breitbart, who's a brilliant woman, she is our resident Rubio superfan, and I think that's part of it, is that she's very keyed in on Venezuela, and she does think he understands it better than anyone in American politics.
	And it's one of these things that's interesting because Bolton...
	Is a bright person.
	He obviously turned on Trump in a really sleazy way, but he's incredibly bright.
	But he totally airballed Trump's Venezuela policy.
	It was laughable when they were bringing Juan Guaido out to the State of the Union.
	Juan Guaido is a big joke in Venezuela, and it made us look like a joke bringing him there.
	It was just very strange things that we chose to do on Venezuela, and it's a notable exception to an otherwise peerless foreign policy from Trump in 2016.
	What is your take, Alex, on the dynamics in the House and the Senate?
	And as you know, we're going to have a House majority, but it's going to be small, maybe five seats, maybe four seats, I'm not sure.
	And in the Senate, while we will have a majority...
	As you know, there are going to be some wavering Republicans, so we may not have an effective majority, even if we have a nominal majority.
	Do you see that as a serious obstacle to a Trump agenda, or do you think that we are in one of those Reagan moments circa 1980, when Reagan was able to get huge things through, even though the Republican Party was not a lot different from what it is today?
	Yeah, it's a great question.
	It's one that I don't have a clear answer to yet, but I'll tell you my prediction.
	But first, I want to make an important point.
	Something happened in the election last week that was really noteworthy for everyone, which is that Donald Trump did incredibly well, and the rest of the Republicans did okay.
	I think that's noteworthy because this is the last time Trump's ever going to run.
	He's not going to run next time.
	We need to get to the woodshed.
	We need to work hard.
	That's why shows like Dinesh's and my show are important because we've got to be in the fight every day.
	We've got to hold every last Republican accountable to execute on the agenda they've been tasked with and make sure that we're grooming our bench because it's not deep enough.
	It's deeper than theirs.
	They're a total mess on the left, but it's not solid enough.
	We should have won more seats.
	We just should have with our policy slate versus what they were doing, which is just talking about abortions and how we're all Nazis and fascists.
	We should have won more.
	And so it's really important to note this is not that big of a majority.
	I don't see the Republican establishment at a weaker point in my life.
	They're so weak right now, even though John Thune got in there at the Senate.
	And I have a lot of skepticism of Mike Johnson as Speaker of the House.
	But I think that they'll increasingly understand that if they want to get anything done, they're going to have to go with the Trump agenda because they're going to get relentlessly brutalized, not just by the establishment media from the left, but the MAGA media, which is ascendant on the right.
	So I'm optimistic things will go well, but that's what you're here for.
	That's what I'm here for at Breitbart, Dinesh, is that if it doesn't, we're going to be on top of them like white on rice.
	I think the other factor closely connected to what you just said is that now, and this is particularly significant about the Platform X, is it's giving really not just thousands, but millions of people a chance to engage in participatory democracy in a way that was not possible before.
	I mean, before you could write a letter to the editor, which they may or may not publish at the Sacramento Bee.
	But here is a way where you can jump in.
	You can tag Tucker and Elon Musk and you can tag the guy you're talking to.
	And most likely somebody in that senator's office is going to see it because they monitor their social media.
	So the point being that if you want to be an American involved in politics, you can have an outsized influence now in a way you couldn't before.
	And that surely has got to be an encouraging sign for our side, but it's also an encouraging sign for a kind of vital democracy in general.
	The word I use for it is heat.
	And people really do respond to heat.
	And you can bring the heat right away on bad ideas or laud good ideas.
	And that's unique in our time.
	We've never had this before in our life.
	And when we've had it over the past decade or two, it's been controlled entirely by the establishment left with Google and Facebook, etc.
	And now that X, which formerly known as Twitter, is run by someone who's at Bar-a-Lago right now hanging out with Trump, then you've got a place to air those ideas out and let the cream rise to the top.
	So it's hard not to be excited about that, Dinesh.
	I agree.
	Guys, I want to welcome Alex Marlowe to the Salem Podcast Network.
	I've been talking to the editor-in-chief of Breitbart News.
	Follow him on X at Alex Marlowe, the website AlexMarlowe.com.
	Alex, thank you very much for coming on.
	Dinesh, thank you.
	And it means a lot to anyone in the audience who hits the subscribe button, help me grow.
	Dinesh is, you know, the poster child at Salem for the quickest growing podcast in your history.
	So I got eyes on it, Dinesh.
	I'm going for it.
	I'm going for it.
	All right.
	All the best.
	Great to have you.
	Thank you, my friend.
	We're discussing fascism, Nazism, and my book, The Big Lie, which is now out in paperback.
	And I'm in the introductory section which outlines the theme of the book.
	And this section closes with a discussion of the issue of propaganda.
	Now here's an interesting quote about propaganda from none other than Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi minister of propaganda.
	He says this, Propaganda is always a means to an end.
	The propaganda that produces the desired results is good.
	And all other propaganda is bad.
	The significance of this statement is that what Goebbels is saying is that propaganda bears no necessary relationship to the truth.
	Ideally, propaganda should lean on the truth, but only for reasons of convenience or utility.
	To put it somewhat differently, it's easier to sell a lie if the lie has ingredients of truth in it.
	If you say something utterly preposterous, people are less likely to believe you.
	So, the reason not to lie is not because it's unethical to lie.
	You should lie when you can.
	Get away with it.
	But the reason to import some truth into the lie is so that the lie becomes more believable.
	This is what Goebbels is saying.
	Good propaganda is judged in a utilitarian or consequential way.
	By consequential here, I mean the consequences.
	If the consequences are what you want, then your propaganda has worked.
	And if they're not what you want...
	So let's say, for example, the Nazis decided we have to keep the German people loyal to Hitler one way or the other until the very end.
	We don't want the German people breaking from Hitler.
	And by the way, Goebbels was able to achieve that.
	Think about this.
	The leveling of Hamburg, of Dresden, and yet Goebbels was able to hold the German people.
	So he is regarded...
	And I don't know if compliment is the right way to put it, but he's regarded in some ways as the greatest propagandist of all time because of this, quote, achievement, end quote.
	But the reason I begin with this quote from Goebbels is because we associate propaganda with the Nazis, with the fascists, and we're now going to talk about, we're going to apply this exact same definition of propaganda, but we're going to apply it to America, to the left, to the Democrats.
	And we're going to talk about their use of this kind of propaganda.
	And in some ways, we have to express a certain amount of respect for the left and the Democrats because they have pulled off a propaganda scheme, in some ways, no less impressive than Goebbels himself.
	So Goebbels' achievement, as I described it, was to convince the Nazi people, listen, you might be getting hammered, the Allied bombs are raining on your head, but Hitler is your guy, stick with him.
	Now, the left's achievement is to take the concept of propaganda after World War II and Develop a successful propaganda scheme to redefine Nazism, redefine fascism, redefine, if you can believe it, anti-Semitism.
	You think something like that would be extremely clear?
	No, no.
	In order to escape responsibility for its ties to fascism and Nazism and anti-Semitism, the left had to redefine all three terms.
	Not only redefine them, not only muddy the waters, not only cover its own tracks, but engage in an intellectual transposition or To use a term I used at the very beginning of this discussion, transference.
	So what is transference?
	It is kind of moving the responsibility from one side over to the other side.
	It's being able to pin the fascist and the Nazi tail on the Republican elephant, removing it from the Democratic donkey.
	Now, let's go to the text.
	After World War II, I write, a group, and I'm talking here about the progressives, came to dominate the academy, a dominance that was fully consolidated by the late 1960s.
	So, the progressives come into the academy.
	Now, the progressives don't control the academy at the beginning.
	It is the classical liberals who are running the academy, not the conservatives, but the classical liberals.
	And the classical liberals are decent.
	They're well-meaning.
	They have an attachment to an ideal of objectivity, even if they recognize it can't be fully practiced.
	But the defining feature of the classical liberal is that he is vulnerable.
	To the attack from the left.
	He doesn't know.
	He knows how to push against the right.
	He doesn't know how to push back against the left.
	And so the classical liberals or the old liberals just collapsed and the progressives were able to move in.
	So their domination of academia didn't come until the late 60s, but they had begun to infiltrate even earlier.
	Now, these progressives Recognized how crushing it would be if Americans knew about the actual record of progressivism in the Democratic Party?
	What if young people, especially young people, knew the links between revered progressive figures like Woodrow Wilson, FDR, JFK on the one hand, and the now-hated Mussolini and Hitler on the other?
	Such knowledge would not only topple these progressive heroes from their pedestal, Basically, it would discredit progressivism and the Democratic Party.
	So in other words, the progressives and the Democrats were in a bit of a desperation mode.
	By the way, it's not entirely dissimilar to right now, is it?
	Because think about it.
	All these...
	All these twisted, woke ideologues, they've developed this whole vocabulary of resentment, of identity politics, and now they've got to sort of regroup.
	They've got to figure out what to do.
	I just saw this morning, in fact, I just saw minutes ago that AOC has just removed her pronouns From her profile.
	And so this can be interpreted of course two ways.
	One way is that AOC has decided that the American people don't like this kind of verbal nonsense.
	Or I guess it could be that AOC has decided to become a man.
	And so the old pronouns that she had are just inapplicable, so she's deleted them.
	But no, the point I'm getting at is that a re-evaluation is underway now, and a re-evaluation was underway after World War II. Back to the text.
	So progressives decided to tell a new story, and this is the story that has now become our conventional wisdom.
	Notice I emphasize the word story.
	We talked today about narratives.
	They came up with a new narrative.
	In this story, the very fascism and Nazism that were, from the outset, on both sides of the Atlantic, recognized as a left-wing phenomenon, Now got moved into the right-wing column.
	Suddenly, Mussolini and Hitler became, quote, right-wingers.
	And the people who supposedly brought them to power became, quote, conservatives.
	The left then became the glorious resistors of fascism and Nazism.
	Now this is a very critical formulation and we need to look at it a little more closely.
	What I'm saying here is that prior to World War II, if you had gone about America or gone about Europe, everywhere, Nazism and fascism were seen as on the left.
	The Americans thought that way.
	The Germans thought that way.
	Other Europeans thought that way.
	The advocates of Nazism and fascism saw themselves on the left.
	The critics of Nazism and fascism saw them on the left.
	But now, in a kind of jujitsu, in a kind of intellectual somersault, in a switcheroo, a new narrative develops and these things, fascism, Nazism, are now put into the right-wing column.
	This is chutzpah, to put it mildly.
	Now, I say, to make this story work, Fascism and Nazism had to be largely redefined.
	This is key because if you have a definition of fascism and Nazism and it's obviously on the left, consider, for example, the name National Socialism.
	Oh, gee, this is a problem.
	So what you've got to now say is that, you know, the Nazis just called themselves socialists.
	They really weren't.
	Well, then why did they call themselves socialists?
	Well, you know, they were trying to appeal to the working class.
	They were trying to pretend like they were socialists, but they really weren't.
	They never were.
	So, right away, you have to realize that you have people coming decades later Who are now telling the Nazis what they, quote, really were.
	Hey guys, you're not really socialists.
	You call yourself socialists.
	You stick it in your name.
	You campaign on it.
	But you're not really that.
	You must have been kidding.
	Or you must have been...
	You had some ulterior motive.
	So this is the kind of intellectual work that has to be done to blur the definitions of fascism and Nazism.
	You've got to sort of rewrite history and you've got to come up with a redefinition.
	Remember, when subsequent generations come along, they don't know what went before.
	Imagine if I'm talking right now To a Gen Z person, right?
	I could con them in all kinds of ways about what happened in the Reagan era.
	I can be like, you know, Reagan was really kind of a leftist.
	They're like, what?
	Really?
	I thought he was conservative.
	You're like, yeah, that's what you thought, but you don't realize.
	Let me give you some examples.
	Guess who did amnesty for illegals?
	Who Woo!
	Reagan!
	Really?
	Was Reagan?
	Yeah, exactly.
	The guy was totally a left-wing.
	Guess who came out of the Hollywood world?
	You think that's a right-wing world?
	Hollywood is fully left.
	Oh, really?
	That's interesting.
	I've always heard Reagan was a Republican.
	Well, yeah, but he was a left-wing kind of Republican.
	He was a Republican in name only.
	Don't you hear the term rhino?
	Reagan was a rhino.
	Now, all of this is babbling nonsense, of course, but I'm only giving it as an example to say, That when people aren't around, when people aren't close to a phenomenon, it's kind of easy to come along and sell them on a bill of goods, which they're not in a position really to verify for themselves, especially if they are eager to believe what you are telling them in the first place.
	So you have all these young people coming into the universities in the 60s.
	Now think about it.
	These guys are, by and large, on the left.
	It's going to be very unpleasant to tell them, guess what?
	You know what?
	You're descended in a straight line from the fascists and the Nazis.
	They'd be like, what?
	So you tell them, listen, you know, your ideas are precisely what led to the downfall of Nazism.
	The tradition of the left is one of glorious resistance to fascism and Nazism.
	You bury all the facts to the contrary.
	This is really what we have been subjected to.
	I'll close today by simply noting that, you know, we talked today about all this propaganda that we get from the media, and we like to think that there was an America beforehand where this kind of thing didn't occur.
	And part of the theme of the big lie, part of what I'm telling you now, is that no, that certainly with regard to critical topics, and fascism and Nazism being two critical topics, This big lie is a big lie that was cooked in the aftermath of World War II in what we often think of as, you know, an America where these kinds of things didn't happen.
	But alas, they did happen.
	And the proof of it is right here in this study that we are undertaking now.
	Subscribe to the Dinesh D'Souza podcast on Apple, Google, and Spotify.

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