The Culture War - Tim Pool - Nigeria's Christian Genocide, Media Ignoring Atrocities w/ Judd Saul & Kyle Abst

Oct. 3, 2025 - The Culture War - Tim Pool

01:58:22

Nigeria's Christian Genocide, Media Ignoring Atrocities w/ Judd Saul & Kyle Abst

BUY CAST BREW COFFEE TO SUPPORT THE SHOW - https://castbrew.com/ Become A Member And Protect Our Work at http://www.timcast.com Host: Phil Labonte @philthatremains (everywhere) Carter Banks @CarterBanks (everywhere) Guest: Judd Saul Kyle Abst https://equippingthepersecuted.org/ My Second Channel - https://www.youtube.com/timcastnews Podcast Channel - https://www.youtube.com/TimcastIRL

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judd saul

37:51

kyle abts

34:30

phil labonte

43:04

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Clips

carter banks

00:31

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Yeah, go ahead.
		All right, 321.
		Go ahead.
		So today there's a lot of talk about conflicts in the Middle East that are ongoing, but there's a conflict going on in part of Africa that hasn't been getting the attention that a lot of other places have.
		In Nigeria, there are a lot of Christians that are dealing with what some people are calling a genocide.
		And so here today to talk about that, we've got some people that'll dive into it.
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		So, Kyle, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		I'm Kyle Epps.
		I'm executive director of the International Committee on Nigeria and also a colleague and friend to Judd Saul here.
unidentified		I moved to Nigeria in 1999, raised my family there, left in 2016, and came back with the need to share the voices of Nigerians that are being persecuted and being killed.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		So I've taken it upon myself to do that for the last 10 years.
unidentified		Awesome.
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for joining us.
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		Judd?
unidentified		Hello, I'm Judd Saul, founder and director of Equipping the Persecuted, a boots on the ground mission in Nigeria that actually helps persecuted Christians.
		And we've been at this for a long time trying to get word out about what's going on in Nigeria, and we are very grateful to be on the show today.
		Awesome.
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you guys for joining us.
unidentified		In case you don't know, Carter Banks is here as well.
		He's going to be pushing the buttons.
		What's up?
		I'm pushing the buttons here.
		But yeah, let's get into it.
		All right.
		So for the people that are unfamiliar, because this hasn't gotten a lot of coverage.
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if you're an extremely online person, if you're a religious Christian, you might be aware of this kind of stuff because this kind of stuff would come across your feed, or maybe you've heard about it in your particular church, possibly people asking for donations or whatever.
unidentified		But for the average kind of politically interested person, would you go ahead and kind of give us the background of what's going on and how we've gotten to this point?
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, Nigeria is the most populous African nation with over 220 million people.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		So by and large, it should be getting focused because there's so much population, but somehow it's not being shared or exposed.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		Maybe there's someone dumbing it down or something.
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		In Nigeria, is it similar to most of the other, like most other countries where there's significant population densities in cities, or is it kind of spread out, more tribal kind of thing?
unidentified		Can you give a little bit of a trend?
unidentified		It is spread out.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		I mean, cities are where the money is, where you get a job.
unidentified		But then people are, it's 50% agricultural, so there are a lot of people who have farms.
		So there's a lot of people in the village areas.
		But it was developed or designed by the European powers.
		You know, after the First World War, they kind of put these borders, absorbed over 500 different ethnic groups.
		So there's a lot of tension already because the Muslims came from the north.
		They came from the Middle East along the Sahel Desert.
		And then they indoctrinated and converted people there, while the Christians came in from the south, from the ocean, slave trade and all that stuff.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		So the history is already ripe with contention because of the different ethnic groups.
unidentified		But it's taken on a whole different dimension when they started killing the Fulanis who created it, declared a jihad in 1804 and designed a caliphate in parts of what is northern Nigeria now.
		And with that sort of remnant in their minds, they continue to use that.
		And there's a radical group of Fulani militant extremist Islamic who are trying to kill Christians and just displace them and convert the whole of Nigeria into an Islamic republic.
		Okay, so the location of Nigeria, it's not actually, well, no, Africa's huge.
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		And you look at a regular map that you're familiar with on, you know, from school or whatever, and Africa kind of doesn't get the credit that it's due for the size of the landmass.
		Like it's the only, the only, it's the biggest continent that, except for Asia, right?
		It's the second biggest continent, I believe it is.
unidentified		And Nigeria is kind of in the middle of it and kind of it's a landlocked country, right?
unidentified		No, it's on the ocean.
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		Oh, is it on the ocean?
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		So where were the people that were coming up from the south, the Christians and stuff, they are descendants of like the Dutch or who were the people that actually colonized the South that actually started bringing the Christian faith into Africa?
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		Portuguese was first and then the British was the main colony.
unidentified		So it was a British colony.
		Okay.
		So at this point, there's the violence you said has been going on for at least 20 years, but longer.
		Okay.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		But 20 years is really, it's taken this religious turn.
unidentified		Okay.
		So who were the groups involved?
		You said the Fulani tribes?
		Yeah, the primary driving force of the killing of Christians in Nigeria is the Fulani tribe.
judd saul ▲ ● ▼		They're a radical Islamist tribe that practice a Saudi Arabian Saudi Arabian Sunni form of Islam that is the same ideology of ISIS, the same ideology of Boko Haram.
unidentified		And they have declared that Nigeria is theirs for the taking.
		And Allah has given them Nigeria, so they feel that they can do whatever they want to grab that land.
		And so they've just been running unimpeded for the last 20 years.
		I call it death by a thousand attacks.
		So it's not like a giant army going in and taking over major cities, but over systematically over time, they move in.
		They're not indigenous to Nigeria, but they move in, they grow the population, they gain political power.
judd saul ▲ ● ▼		Once they have the political power, then the killing starts.
unidentified		And then once they have the political cover in these northern states, then they start going after more land and more villages and start doing the killing.
		And this is why hardly anybody talks about it because they have the political cover, even within the Nigerian government, to go do these killings and run around just killing unimpeded.
		So Fulanis are nomadic herdsmen.
		That's their occupation.
		That's their job.
		So you often see them with herds of cattle, and that's where they make their money.
		And they're that actually stretched from Senegal all the way through Central Africa.
		Some say even to South Sudan into Sudan.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		So that people are very nomadic.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		When he says they're not indigenous to Nigeria, it means they will not, if you speak to a Fulani in Senegal, where are you from?
unidentified		They'll say, I'm Fulani.
		I'm from everywhere, right?
		I'm not Nigerian.
		They don't have Nigerian passports.
		They have no form of identity.
		The nomadic ones, there's some who've settled since the 1800s in cities and set up in politics, as Judge said.
		But so they're, in 1804, the Fulani Jihad was declared and they wiped out, or they tried to wipe out all the non-the infidels, anyone who didn't want to convert to their belief of Islam.
		And that's where it kind of got bad.
		But there are, you know, to be fair, there are Fulanis who are Christians.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		They became, they have dreams and visions.
unidentified		It's not because a missionary or some Western person converts them.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		That's a misnomer.
unidentified		It's somehow they come to know who Jesus was through a vision, something.
		And they're stuck in a rock in a hard place because if they tell anyone in their family that they've converted to Christianity, they'll be killed.
		And at the same time, they got to cover that and make sure they don't expose themselves.
		So it's hard.
		Okay.
		So why don't you guys go ahead and give a little more backstory on you said that it was the 1907 jihad is with it?
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		1804.
unidentified		1804 jihad.
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		So this has been going on for 200 years.
unidentified		Can you give a little of the history for that?
		They declared a caliphate, they said, and then they were essentially decided that it was time to engage in jihad, engage in holy war.
		How is it that they have, how have they, how have they been trying to carry out the jihad and why has it kicked up in the past 20 years?
		Or has it kicked up in the past 20 years?
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		Is it just that the information gets out more readily because of the internet?
unidentified		I don't imagine that there's a lot of people or that 20 years ago, there were a lot of people with internet-capable phones.
		That's something that came in the past 10 years, if it is out there.
		Because I know that Facebook was doing a lot to try and bring the internet to people in Africa and they were spending a lot of money and they were giving out phones and building infrastructure.
		And in the phones, they had Facebook built in.
		That was one of the things that Facebook is famous for doing, is like spreading Facebook by spreading the internet.
		And so that makes sense that the information would get out in the past 10 years, but this is something that's been going on.
		So can you give me a little bit of backstory about the actual history of the jihad in Oakland?
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		I'll do the backstory, then you take it to modern day.
unidentified		Yeah, sure.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		So the history, so there's different kingdoms that were set up all throughout West Africa, right?
		But then the 1804 Fulani Me Utman Dan Fodio declared jihad because he thought all the Muslims that were there weren't worshiping the way they should.
		So he slaughtered, killed people that wouldn't go about the way he wanted to set up the emirates, different locations with different emirates.
unidentified		And the emir has to be a Fulani.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		And those exist to this day.
unidentified		The Emir of Sokoto, Sultan of Tokuto, there's the Kano, there's different places where these emirs live or they rule.
unidentified		And they have to be Fulani.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		And so that backstory, that history still remains to this day.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		Fast forward to Nigerian independence.
unidentified		We celebrated October 1st, 1960.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		The British came in late 1800s, they were just taking slaves, they were taking the resources and then exporting them.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		But they worked with the tribal groups to try to rule by exemption.
unidentified		They weren't there in the country or they were there, but they ruled through these leaders.
		And the Fulani had that sort of central system, the Emir, the Sultan.
		So they figured out, let's use them to rule and to take this further into the South.
		And then that's how to this day, Judd will talk more about that, how it became today.
		But to this day, Fulanis are in power strategically to rule.
		And they've 36 states in Nigeria.
		12 of them are allowed to practice Sharia law, which is against the Constitution.
		You're not supposed to have an opposing political belief, but they're allowed 12 states because those are in the— Is the Nigerian Constitution similar to the United States, or is it— Patterned after— Patterned after, okay.
		They started with the parliamentary system in 1960, but then by three years later, they decided to become a Republican, copy the U.S. Constitution.
		So three houses of government.
		Yeah.
		Okay.
		Yeah.
		So continue to what's going on now is 9-11, 2001 in Nigeria, they executed a major, major attack, killing over a thousand Christians in one swoop.
		And that was kind of their mark in the sand that the jihad is starting again.
		And ever since that, so we say over the last 20 years, they have been actively moving and systematically been restarted the jihad and conquering territory.
judd saul ▲ ● ▼		There was a during the British, there was peace.
unidentified		There's really peace amongst all the tribes and because they kind of kept order.
judd saul ▲ ● ▼		But go to 9-11, 2001, Christians get killed and then systematically move.
unidentified		So that was right after 9-11, but was it like on the same day?
unidentified		Oh, really?
phil labonte ▲ ● ▼		So they did it.
unidentified		They did it in conjunction.
unidentified		And that's another thing no one talks about.
judd saul ▲ ● ▼		Major attack happened.
unidentified		Thousand Christians died in Nigeria.
unidentified		got no attention whatsoever, no notice.
judd saul ▲ ● ▼		But ever since then, they have elevated and continued their jihad and continue to get more political power.
unidentified		And now we're to the point where the last three presidents of Nigeria have been Muslims and the vice presidents have also been Muslims, Muslim Muslim tickets.
unidentified		No, is Nigeria a Muslim majority country now?
judd saul ▲ ● ▼		No, it was, but no, it's still Christian majority.
unidentified		Okay.
		You could ask people, they say, oh, it's 50-50.
		That's just a general thing.
		But if you ask Christians, they'll say they're actually more Christians than Muslims.
		So it's actually majority, but the last three election cycles have been Muslim-Muslim tickets.
		And that has allowed, I say, political cover for these terrorists to run around the country unimpeded with AK-47s and all sorts of other military-style weapons going around and doing killing, while Nigeria is a country that banned guns.
		Okay.
		Yeah, to have a gun in Nigeria, you have to register and typically it's for hunting.
		If you use it on a human, even if you're defending your house, someone's coming in, you shoot them, you could go to jail.
		So it's a, it's, I mean, there are states in the United States where that's the case.
		You know, if you're in New Jersey or Massachusetts or Illinois or any other, there's probably seven or eight different states where that's the case.
		Yeah, but for some reason, terrorists, a band of motorcycles with AK-47s and RPGs just blow by the police and the military, they're out Nigeria and they let them go right on by.
		Why is that?
		It's typical of leftist governments, to be honest with you, but go ahead.
		There's a lot of reasons as to why.
		And we can go into the corruption talk later about how a lot of Nigerian government officials are on the take.
		They're being paid off and some of them are even profiting off of the activities of the terrorists through their kidnapping, the extortion, the stealing of lands and the jizya they're having, making the farmers pay in the communities.
		It's corrupt from the top down, but many of these, there are politicians that are on the take and profiting off of this.
		So that's kind of something that Alexander Solzhenitsyn was talking about in the Soviet Union.
		He mentioned or he discussed how if a criminal, someone that was living outside of the rules, not trying to obey the law and stuff, if he was caught with a knife or with a weapon, they would say, well, you know, he doesn't know any better.
		And this is just his nature.
		So we have to forgive him and forget and et cetera.
		Whereas if a normal person that's trying to live within the rules is caught with a weapon, well, you know, you should have known better and they'll throw the book at you.
		Is there a lot of leftist policy that's being implemented in Nigeria?
		Or is this kind of just emergent where people that don't have a Western sensibility kind of just kind of behave that way?
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, so it's set up, oil is their biggest export.
unidentified		So they're billions of dollars in oil.
unidentified		The money for the states and local governments is given by the federal government.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		So the federal government gives us blocks of money to the state, to the districts, to the wards.
unidentified		It trickles down.
unidentified		So if you're disobeying or you're doing something that doesn't please the federal government, i.e. the president or in his administration, your money could be withheld.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		So there's many things like that that happen at the same time, as Jub is saying, that there's people that need extra money.
unidentified		So they confide or they turn a blind eye to these attacks and the things happen.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		So are they getting paid cash?
unidentified		We don't know, but there's increasing evidence that there's some people connected with these terrorists and the militants.
		Okay.
		So If the terrorists, or if these Muslim groups, the Islamic radicals are attacking the Christians and they have no way to fight back, what do you guys think is the prescription here?
		Do you think that there's?
		If the, if the government is actually protecting the people that are attacking?
		Do you think that there's any kind of political solution?
		Or is it?
		Is it something where the, the people that are being attacked, are going to have to defend themselves?
		And if they're going to have to defend themselves, exactly like what?
		What means?
		Because you said there's, you know, there are gun laws there and and you can't have guns and and so what?
		Do you think that the, the way for these people to move forward, is?
		So the?
		I'll do the first one on the terrorists.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		So the terrorists, BOKO RAM, I swap up in the northeast Borno that's being handled by the army, by the military of the government and I, and to say they're doing a good job.
unidentified		Maybe I don't know, but they're at least stopping spread and they're, but they're not.
		They haven't defeated them.
		They claim to defeat them five, ten years ago, but they haven't.
		So they're continually doing stuff with and to against them, with the aid of India, with Pakistan with, with the?
		U.s.
		Money for military weapons to help combat these, but oftentimes they get overrun and those weapons get stolen and and who knows where they end up.
kyle abts ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess we kind of know where they end up, you know.
unidentified		So then the, the terrorists are the one, the ice, um the I swap the Boko Ram, but then the Filani militants is a different one.
unidentified		So let me just tell you how explain how things work in Nigeria.
judd saul ▲ ● ▼		Um, you know, the terrorists a lot of times get their weapons and we got this documented and through testimony they actually rent their weapons from the military for for for 24 hours.
unidentified		So there's there's, there's bad actors in the military and police where they will rent weapons from the police and military for a 24-hour attack and then give the weapons back the day after the attack.
		Um, some groups in certain parts are well funded.
		They get uh, uh they call it sophisticated weapons in Nigeria, but they're getting brand new Ak-47s, uh new Russian Based Ak-47s, and that money is coming up from the north.
		So the Fulani terrorists do coincide and work with ISIS and they do work with BOKO Haram, but they're kind of the I call.
		I refer to them as the Vietcong style force.
		You have the North Vietnamese army, which is well funded orchestrated, everything going on well.
		Then you have the Vietcong, which are the renegade boots on the ground.
		They're, they're given marching orders and they are executing the jihad in the Middle Belt, while all the attention, all the money, is being focused on up north.
		Now, these current politicians and people in power could not be in place.
		Without the support of these terror controlled territories, these territories controlled by terrorists, they couldn't be in power.
		Are they getting outside money as well, or or is this just something that's coming out of the government?
		No no, we believe that they are getting outside money.
		They're getting outside Money from up north, from the Middle East, from places like Turkey, Saudi Arabia.
		There is funding that is going on.
		In fact, we know that there are several of these terror leaders are getting paid trips to Saudi Arabia for their, you know, for their pilgrimage and pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia, pilgrimage to Mecca.
		You have to go to Mecca.
		Mecca, and they're being funded by folks up in Saudi Arabia and in the Middle East.
		We know that these leaders are doing that.
		And so there's definite collusion.
		And you asked about how the leftist politics involved?
		Well, we know that the far left across the world, far-left governments, have been supporting the current president and the previous presidents that have been allowing the killing of Christians, including Democrat operatives from the United States.
		Obama operatives, David Axelrod, and company have been in Nigeria the last three presidential election cycles helping Muslim candidates win offices over Christian candidates.
		So there is a collusion of the far left working within the Nigerian government and getting bad actors elected.
		And you have this sort of narrative that goes out.
		Terrorists are there.
		Let's defeat them.
		Terror is bad, right?
		But this middle belt one, this middle area of Fulani extremists, militants, we can't say that because you're denigrating the whole population of Fulanis.
		And we don't want to do that either.
		We know some good Fulanese, but they're militant.
		Some of them are very militant, and the good ones can't expose, they can't help, and they can't do anything to stop it because they'll be killed themselves.
		So they're turning a blind eye, what have you.
		But the narrative that goes out in the U.S. and around the world is it's a farmer-herder, it's an ethnic clash.
		That's why you don't hear about what sounds better, ethnic clash, farmer-herder, or Christian genocide?
		Sure, sure.
		Yeah.
		Well, I mean, the idea of a Christian genocide is, you know, there are a lot of people in the West that are just allergic to that concept because they feel like any kind of acknowledgement of that is going to be helping their political opponents in the U.S.
		I mean, you can bring this up from Al Jazeera here.
		Bill Maher has said there is no Christian genocide in Nigeria.
		No, Al Jazeera is saying this.
		Bill Maher says there's a systematically killing of Christians in Nigeria.
		So they're countering his.
		Oh, okay.
		Okay.
		No, Bill Maher.
		There is no Christian genocide in Nigeria.
		So Al Jazeera is running, you know, is running cover for essentially what's going on in Nigeria.
		From Al Jazeera, in recent days, coordinated attacks on Nigeria's nationhood have swept across social media, blogs, and television outlets, alleging a so-called Christian genocide.
		These attacks, driven by foreign actors, mischaracterize Nigeria's domestic conflicts, ignore its complexities, and manipulate long-standing ethnic and resource-based tension to advance sectarian agendas.
		I mean, this doesn't seem like it's particularly surprising from Al Jazeera, considering where it's based and the people that fund it.
		But not an issue that Christians should be focused on?
		Or is it something that, you know, is it something that they could actually convince people it's just tribalism and it has nothing to do with their Christianity?
		This particular guy that wrote this article is from the office of vice president of Nigeria.
		Now, the vice president of Nigeria has been very well affiliated with bad actors for a very, very long time.
		And he's got quite the reputation in Nigeria of being affiliated with the bad guys.
		Now, why is there spin and why does a spin hit the U.S.?
		Al Jazeera is one of those publications to blame for this is because I'll just give you a prime example.
		In June, Father's Day this year, 280 Christians were killed.
		Half of them were burned alive, and the ones that weren't burned alive were trying to escape were hacked to death with machetes.
		Children, women, men, elderly.
		Yeah.
		I mean, it's just a slaughter.
		Whoever could get away was slaughtered.
		Okay.
	Al Jazeer comes out and they lie about the numbers.
	They say 100 were killed.
	And they call it tribal clashes, farmer herd of clashes.
	Well, the fact of the matter is, is that when they talk about it like that, do they get into the motivation?
	No, they never get into the motivation.
	It's just a clash.
	Regional.
	So here's what happens with the news in Nigeria, okay?
	And this is kind of different for Westerners to understand this.
	If a major event happens, the government calls for the press conference.
	The government pays the journalists to show up to cover the press conference.
	If the government does not call for a press conference, the event never happened.
	But the journalists who are getting paid to cover press conference have to repeat exactly what the government said.
	Now, you guys had said that the Constitution in Nigeria is modeled after Western constitutions.
	They don't have – so far we've kind of established that there's no protection for individual right to self-defense and there's no protection for the freedom of the press or freedom of religion or freedom of speech.
	Other than that, it's all good, right?
	Yeah, right.
	So by the time the information gets out and it goes to the AP, when it gets to the AP, it's all filtered through Al Jazeera.
	And the AP just accepts the narrative that's being sent out.
	They don't have their own – I mean, obviously, there's – Occasionally they do, but even worse still is the data that's compiled that the U.S. government looks at, ACLED, A-C-L-E-D, that if you go to that website, they do a good job.
	They try, but they're just culling the internet, just going through it.
	They got a program they write.
	They get this, oh, they don't say Fulani militants killed.
	They say, oh, it's a farmer-herder clash.
	We'll go to those unknown gunmen.
	That's the other one.
	Unknown gunmen.
	Unknown gunmen.
	Let's just call them unknown.
	Well, we know exactly who they are.
	We call the village, find someone there.
	They know exactly who it is, and they're trying to say it, but they get stopped.
	So this data system that you see reported is incorrect because all the information being fed by the so-called journalists in Nigeria aren't reporting accurately.
	Right.
	And the final filter goes through Al Jazeera, which then goes to the AP.
	Okay.
	And so a reason why you don't hear anything, especially coming out of the mainstream press, is one, the Nigerian government does not hold a press conference.
	It didn't happen.
	And the only time they hold a press conference on something is when there's more than 100 people that were killed.
	You don't hear about the 10 people, the 20 people, the 30 people in the killings.
	Never, never hits mainstream media unless it's over 100.
	Okay.
	And that is where the bodies are piling up and communities are destroyed.
	And then what no one talks about is after we hear about the killings is after killings, well, you have survivors that lived in these communities.
	You have a village of 10,000, village of 5,000.
	All these people are now removed from their homes and they have to live in camps.
	And so currently right now, there's 3.5 million Christians that are living in squalor in awful camps.
	And they've been removed from their communities.
	Not that I'm some kind of pro-UN guy, but the UN has nothing to say about this.
	They're there, but they're where the terrorists are, right?
	So if everyone focuses on the terrorist, because that's a bad word.
	We want to stop the spread of Islamic terrorism.
	Great.
	No one's looking at the middle, the Fulani militants action.
	Because again, it's their own problem.
	Let the government take care of it.
	because they're the Fulani militants because they're not officially associated with either Boko Haram or ISIS or what have you.
	They don't get any attention and no pushback from the UN or from international organizations.
	And there's no...
	And they don't get help.
	Yeah.
	Oh, you're talking about the IDPs.
	The people, the 3.5 million, they don't get help.
	They don't get aid.
	And there's no press coverage.
	There's no independent journalists that are down there trying to get the word out.
	Is it safe for journalists to go there?
	Can they go there and expect to not get killed by the Fulanis?
	So two years ago, we created a website called truthnigeria.com to give outlets to citizen journalists in Nigeria.
	We have 15 troublemaking journalists that risk their lives every day to document these things.
	And that is the only outlet right now of truth getting out about what's going on in Nigeria is through truthnigeria.com.
	And we've had our reporters beat.
	They've been detained by the government.
	They've had death threats by the government.
	They have to go undercover.
	They have to live in a few different locations.
	But we are the only ones who've given them an outlet to actually say what's going on.
	Otherwise, none of the information is getting out.
	And it's not anti-government.
	It's not anti-Muslim.
	It's the truth.
	It's just truth.
	It's just documenting what's going on.
	Okay.
	And so the Nigerian government doesn't want this to get out because it makes the, because, well, they're aligned with the Fulanis, apparently, right?
	They believe, they're at the very least, they're sympathetic to the Fulanis perspective.
	And so they're not getting any kind of help internationally.
	There's no press coverage.
	So how many organizations such as yours are actually trying to get information out?
	And how effective is it?
	Obviously, you know, you said you lived there.
	You know, what kind of resources do the organizations that are currently there that are trying to get information out?
	What kind of resources do they have?
	And what is the best means to help them?
	In your estimation?
	I'll start with my ideally situation and you cover up the emergency.
	Ideally, we want to be there just to encourage them, whatever they need, help with farming, sustainable agriculture, education, medical, just giving them a hand up, not a hand out, right?
	Helping them encourage them.
	But because of the crisis, because of all the killings, you can't do that.
	You're more or less responding in the emergency situation.
	I mean, do they need to send green berets in to teach the Christians how to fight?
	Time to get CIA involved or something?
	We pray for intervention, but what resources are going on?
	There's not very many organizations doing what we do.
	And those of us that are in the fight are underfunded, don't have the resources, because it's all private donations.
	Our organization, equippingthepersecuted.org, gets no government funding.
	The other local missionaries that are out there that we team up with don't get any big funding.
	And this is a fight we've been in for several years.
	That's why we're all kind of shocked that, you know, thank you for bringing us on again to talk about this because we've been at this for years trying to get the truth out.
	And so we're very underfunded.
	And the government funding like UNICEF and the UN, they're expending resources up at the north.
	And the resources that come in from the UN and came in from UNICEF end up in terrorist hands.
	It never gets to the people that are really suffering and need it.
	That's typical.
	I mean, you hear the same kind of argument when it's dealing with, whether it's you go way back to the 90s when Adid was in Somalia, he would get all the aid from the UN.
	It would never make it to the Somalian people.
	You hear the same narrative when it comes to Gaza, that Hamas takes all of the aid and controls who does and does not get it.
	So they use it as a tool to keep the people in line.
	And so that's something that's fairly typical of these type of regimes where the government is actually supposed to be processing the aid and handing it out to the people that need it.
	But really, what they end up doing is holding on to it and enriching themselves.
	And it hurts the economy.
	So USAD, when they pulled the funding, yes, it did hurt some people that needed their HIV/AIDS medication, whatever.
	That was a sad reality.
	But those getting food assistance and that kind of something, they were rejoicing because the price of, take, for instance, where the terrorists are, they're bringing in food that was being confiscated, sold off at a profit, higher margins than they could in other parts of Nigeria.
	As soon as that was stopped, the price came down.
	And people really, this is great.
	So it's market forces at work.
	Yeah.
	That's actually.
	It's good to hear that because you hear about all of the, you hear from the left people that are that wanted USAID to stay in business and stay, you know, continue to do the things they're doing.
	You hear about the, oh, well, you know, they're not, there are going to be so many people that are going to die and et cetera, et cetera.
	But you don't very often hear, oh, well, you know, actually prices came down in this place because there's no longer market manipulation by the food aid getting sold on the private market.
	Yeah, instead of delivering aid and giving it to the hungry people that need it, they're just taking it and selling it off.
	Sure.
	And, you know, magically, these aid trucks would just happen to break down right in front of terror camps.
	Shocking.
	And the food would be gone and then they get back in the trucks and move it in.
	Get the truck out of the way that way.
	Yeah.
	So it was just too heavy.
	You know, get the offloaded so that way it could actually and UNICEF in one story.
	So we've been working with this IDP camp in Benway for a long time.
	We've and we've spent lots of funds getting them out of garbage bag tents and putting them into living structures like they that they could live in.
	And we went back to check on the camp and see how things were going, brought medicine, did a medical intervention.
	And I look over and I see four giant garbage cans slapped with USAID and UNICEF stickers on them.
	I'm going, what in the world?
	Well, you got to understand in Nigeria and especially these camps, there's just trash everywhere.
	There's no sanitation system.
	There's no dumps.
	There's no garbage trucks.
	Trash is just everywhere.
	And I look at these four giant garbage cans full of trash sitting around trash.
	And I go to the camp, I said, did USAID come by and bring these by?
	They're like, yeah.
	I said, did they bring any food?
	They're like, no.
	I said, did they, do they come back and like help pick up the trash or haul it away?
	They're like, no.
	So their magical gift to a camp of 5,000 people that was living in garbage bag tents was four garbage cans.
	That was our USAID contribution and a slap in the face to these people that are starving and dying of disease.
	And they give them garbage cans and that was it.
	Yeah.
	And then one other story.
	Another NGO, UN group came in and they built them a latrine.
	The latrine filled up.
	They gave them no option to haul out the waste.
	So they have a giant latrine filled with waste and no mechanism to empty the waste.
	That's not very.
	That's our government dollars at work.
	No, I mean, this is just an argument against USAID.
	Generally, I'm of the opinion that aid tends to hurt more than it actually helps because, like, you were talking about the people that are in charge.
	In most places in the world nowadays, particularly in 2025, most places that are really poverty-stricken, it's not that there is not the capacity to get out of poverty.
	It's that they are kept in poverty by the government who have bad policy.
	I mean, the people themselves are completely capable of engaging in markets and producing their own food.
	It's not that they lack the ability to do that because humans have been doing things like that for thousands of years, but it's the, you know, generally it's the governments that prevent those kind of things.
	These people were farmers.
	These people had homes.
	They were happy doing their farming.
	But it wasn't until these Islamic terrorists came in, ripped them away from their tribal lands, their ancestral lands, and shove them in camps.
	And they have nowhere to go.
	They have no way to produce anything because of these terrorists.
	Yeah, Nigeria is not like a desert.
	It's in the more lush part of it, or it's sub-Saharan, one of the more lush parts of Africa.
	It's rich.
	It's rich in agriculture, rich in natural resources.
	If you could just get rid of the corruption, if you could get rid of the stupid Islamic terrorists that are going around killing people and destroying everything they touch, Nigeria would be the place to go to in Africa.
	It would be a great tourist destination, be a great place to invest, great place for economy.
	And speaking of which, there are people capitalizing off of this terrorism and off of these things, and that's the Chinese.
	Go on.
	The Chinese have been moving in and they call it illegal mining.
	All right.
	So that's illegal mining, but they're going in and they're mining out natural resources in the Islamic-controlled areas of Nigeria.
	And let's say there's more land that becomes available.
	Christians are kicked off their land and they're sitting on minerals.
	China's coming in doing mining.
	They don't care what all the killing or what's happening around them as long as China gets to do their mining.
	And so there are foreign government interests that are capitalizing on this as well.
	China's in like pretty much every African country.
	Yeah.
	The Belt Road, whatever that started with.
	But they don't come with any sort of democracy, any human rights.
	So they just, whatever happens, whatever's under the table, let me come in.
	I'll build a road for you.
	Yep, sure.
	Then just let me have this land over here.
	And they hire locals to do it.
	Mines are collapsing all the time.
	You know, here's stories of this stuff.
	A gold mine just collapsed, I think, the other day.
	So it's like these things are happening.
	And they just, when they get their truck loaded up, find a port, they built a port in Lagos, a deep sea port, which is great for shipping vessels, but also military vessels.
	So how is China allowed to do this?
	They just cut these crazy deals.
	And then Russia is also throughout West Africa.
	They're in Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso.
	So, you know, you get the whole gamut of communism coming in.
	Yeah.
	And our inaction as a United States government in foreign policy, I mean, during the Biden years, the operating directive was LGBTQ, feminism, women's empowerment, had nothing to do with.
	Things that are only going to alienate the Americans from whatever culture they're trying to actually help.
	Allegedly trying to help.
	So that was the operating directive from our U.S. embassy.
	So they're focused on all this stuff.
	While there's killing, there's terrorism.
	China and Russia are taking over Africa.
	And the United States' foreign policy was social issues.
	Yeah.
	And they're often chasing China.
	So anytime Chinese diplomats, government come over to Africa, Nigeria, they're two weeks behind.
	They've already made their China's made their deals.
	Now America shows up and what are you going to do?
	Well, China's offered us this.
	Can you beat that?
	And they can't, you know, because they want to tie it in with human rights and all this other stuff.
	Yeah, the U.S. is, this goes back to an argument that is often made about whether or not the United States should have political influence in other countries.
	And while it does produce situations like we had where there was so much BS going on, right?
	With your LGBTQIA kind of garbage being forced on cultures that just flat out reject that, alienating the Americans from whatever the local population thinks, or whether it be any other ideologically motivated stuff that's in significant conflict with what tend to be religious, religious tribal, whether it be tribes or religious cultures.
	Is it better for the United States to step back?
	Now, there's a lot of people that when they hear America first, they think that the U.S. shouldn't worry about the rest of the world.
	And whereas I'm the kind of America first kind of dude that thinks, well, the United States is not alone.
	And it's better for the United States to be able to influence countries than to not, like influence them in ways that benefit the United States.
	And I think that allowing countries like China and like Russia to go in and not actually do anything that helps the host countries, I think it's probably worse for the United States because the United States gets nothing out of it except for countries that are hostile to the United States.
	Well, and then what you have to look at this way is that there is vast untapped natural resources, minerals, you name it, in Africa.
	If the United States does not have a hand in that, it will hurt the United States in the future.
	Well, someone's going to.
	So if we sit back and we don't engage with other countries and policy in other countries, those people that are, I say, America first isolationists, they are advocating for the same foreign policy our adversaries want.
	If you take the U.S. out of the equation, China and Russia become more powerful.
	And if China and Russia become more powerful, United States loses its influence and we become weak.
	Yeah.
	So putting America first means you do things that benefit America.
	That doesn't mean that you step away from the rest of the world because that puts America in a weaker position.
	That's what Rubio's policy is: safer, stronger, prosperous.
	How do you do that in Nigeria?
	There's many ways.
	You're not just focusing on America.
	That's not his intent.
	His intent is how does this make America safer, getting involved in Nigeria?
	How does it make America stronger?
	Figuring out things in Nigeria.
	How does it make it more prosperous?
	Those are things that have to be done.
	I'll be the first person to say that it's not America first to leave tons of weapons in Afghanistan.
	That's not a good thing for the United States.
	But cutting deals that allow American companies to produce, to get minerals or to get natural resources out of an African country, as opposed to, in a way that is going to actually produce profit for the people of that country, as opposed to allowing China or Russia to go in and acquire these colonial modern-day colonials absolutely, absolutely.
	And the Chinese and the Russian companies, I mean, the Nigerians hate, hate working for them because they get treated like garbage.
	They get treated like indentured servants if they end up working for the Chinese and Russian companies.
	American business comes in with principle, with values, that it benefits the country, it benefits us.
	And we see that if we move into a country and we're doing business, we believe that prosperity for all makes everybody better.
	Yeah, and I want to, on that note, I want to put a pin on that because there's going to be a lot of people that are going to hear that and they're going to think, oh, well, you know, when we had USAID, we were sharing American values and they're, like we talked about, they're sharing the LGBTQ ideology and they're sharing a lot of progressive ideas that aren't just foreign to these countries that are oftentimes their culture is based in their religion, but they're also foreign to the United States.
	These are things that the United States doesn't agree on, right?
	Like these ideas, like the idea that men can become women, that goes hand in hand with the LGBTQID, you know, stuff like that.
	That's not something that the American people agree on.
	In fact, that's another 80-20 issue.
	Americans don't think, by and large, that you can change your gender.
	I don't even like the term gender.
	I think gender is just a made-up word to allow for these ideas to be spread.
	And I can assure you that 99.99999999% of Nigerians would agree.
	Yeah.
	So you put a pile of money on the table and you start talking about equality and DEI things.
	Yep.
	All they're looking at is that money because they know USAD has money.
	You know, donors, EU, whoever has money.
	Whatever you want, we'll do it.
	Whatever report you want us to write, we know how to write it.
	Just keep that money coming.
	Keep that tap open.
	Yeah, it's funding dog and pony shows.
	So preventing that stuff is like largely on the United States side.
	I mean, granted, I'm extremely happy that USAID has been shut down.
	I'm glad that the Trump administration is doing all the things that it's doing to prevent the exporting of ideas that are even foreign to the U.S., right?
	They're not ideas that the United States, by and large, the American people agree with.
	So then how do you provide support or how do you, like, if you were to sit down with Marco Rubio, what would you want him to say about Nigeria?
	What way would you want to hear the United States help in Nigeria?
	I would say there is a lot of business to be done in Nigeria, and I think it could be a win-win situation for the United States.
	Broker mineral rights deals with the Nigerian government, but also predicate a major investment into Nigeria on the safety and security of the people.
	Say, we'll invest X amount of dollars, but you guys, and we'll help you along the way, get rid of the security issue, get rid of this terrorism nonsense so we can see Nigeria be a prosperous nation.
	Will a Muslim government do that?
	Or do they need to, will a Christian need to win the election and become the president and vice president?
	Can they do that?
	I would prefer better leadership, but I say the United States can give Nigeria an offer it can't refuse and end this violence and this nonsense.
	And there is a win-win scenario.
	We've done the numbers.
	We looked at it on paper and we have been giving the administration this information and how to look at Nigeria.
	But the first things first is the U.S. government needs to identify who the enemy is, who the terrorists actually are.
	It's not just Boko Haram and ISIS.
	It's the Fulani militants, the radical Islamist Fulani that are killing all the Christians.
	Attention keeps being diverted away.
	So we have to identify who the bad guys are before we can get success.
	Well, is it practical to think that the people that are telling the story about what's going on in Nigeria, is it practical to think that they can actually manage to spin a narrative that will identify the Fulani that are bad without making everyone think that the Fulani, by and large, are bad.
	And the reason I ask is because Americans are familiar with the name Boko Haram.
	Americans are familiar with the name ISIS.
	Those two groups.
	Al-Qaeda.
	Yeah, Al-Qaeda.
	These things are easy for Americans to understand.
	And if you're going to try and convince the Americans that this is something that they should care about, just saying Fulani, which is a name most, I'd never heard the Fulani, the name Fulani before today, most Americans are going to say, well, who are they?
	Right.
	And then you're going to say, well, it's a tribal thing.
	And then they're going to go back to, oh, then it's just tribal clashes.
	So how do you fix that?
	So we refer to them as the Fulani ethnic militia.
	Yeah, you can't classify all Fulani people is a wrong term.
	Yeah.
	Fulani ethnic militia.
	Okay.
	That's what we're calling them.
	That's what they're called.
	So they're the Fulani ethnic militia.
	That separates those Fulani from the good Fulani because these are the militants.
	They're the militia.
	And the thing is, the Nigerian government knows who the leaders are.
	They know the command structure.
	They know how it operates.
	We know the command structure and who the leaders are and how it operates.
	Okay.
	And there is clearly identifiable.
	You know where the headquarters is.
	They know where they meet.
	This could easily be dealt with with willpower and done very quickly.
	Okay.
	So on that point, I'm going to go to this bit from Newsweek, Carter, if you want to bring this up.
	From Newsweek, Trump administration deeply concerned by violence against Christians in Nigeria.
	The State Department has told Newsweek that it is deeply concerned about the levels of violence against Christians and members of other groups in Nigeria.
	It comes after American comedian Bill Maher brought attention to the high number of Christians being killed by Islamic militant groups such as Boko Haram in parts of Nigeria.
	The country is generally pushed back against narratives that Christians are being systematically killed in a genocide attempt, as Maher described it, with Nigeria's Ministry of Foreign Affairs saying in March that the terrorism in the country is not driven by religious bias nor targeted against any particular religious groups.
	Now, this is the existing government, which you guys are saying is run essentially by the Muslims, which are at least sympathetic to the Milani.
	Complicit, right?
	If you're not stopping it, you're complicit.
	Sure.
	Let me give you a story.
	2018, then President Bukhari came to the Rose Garden, had a discussion with Trump.
	A girl named Leah Shari.
	2018, you said?
	2018.
	So he was president, two terms, so he lasted eight years.
	He came, a girl named Leah Sharibu was kidnapped two months before.
	This has been going on by terrorists taking girls forcibly converting them.
	It was terrible.
	It was tragic.
	He confronts Buhari and says, what are you doing to Christians?
	I hear there's one girl still captive.
	You need to free her.
	Why are they killing Christians?
	I was on my way to Nigeria when that speech was being made.
	I was in a governor's office, and he says, all hell's breaking this.
	I said, what's going on?
	He said, your president said something yesterday.
	And all the generals, all the government is showing, trying to save faith.
	They're trying to respond to this.
	Same thing happened.
	So that was the Fulani is also helping with the terrorists.
	Things started to happen.
	When Trump said something, the world, Nigeria responded.
	Well, this particular piece that I was watching or that I was reading from in Newsweek, this was October 1st.
	That was two or three days ago.
	Do you get the sense, or do you have any of your contacts in Nigeria?
	Do they have they noticed this?
	I think Bill Marsh started it.
	I think this, you know, there's Senator Cruz introduced legislation, and then Congressman Chris Smith has done it as well.
	So when people say things, they're ecstatic because we both know that no legislation is going through Congress, right?
	Like it's just not going to happen.
	Like, I mean, it might get through the House, but it's definitely not going to get through the Senate because the Senate, they just don't have the votes for Republicans and anything that the Democrats can do to stymy the Republicans.
	That's what we're focusing on, Trump.
	Yeah, that's why we're trying to get to Trump and the Trump administration.
	Look, even Trump saying a few words changed the scope for a while in Nigeria.
	You saw the killings shrink and drop down.
	Does your organization have any contact with people at state?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	I just came back from D.C. I've been meeting with the State Department.
	Okay.
	And providing them information about what's going on.
	The problem is, like I said, for the last four years, the U.S. Embassy had an operating directive focusing on stupid social issues.
	And I met with the U.S. Embassy in Abuja.
	They had no idea what's going on outside their doors in Abuja.
	They didn't know about the killing.
	They can't leave the grounds.
	They can't leave the grounds.
	They can't go anywhere.
	The Nigerian staff can go out, but the American staff, but the information that they get about what's happening in Nigeria is coming from the Nigerian government.
	Yeah, so they, whatever they're selling, they're buying 100%.
	You know, whatever the Nigerian government's telling them, the U.S. Embassy was a congressman or senator going.
	Are they still currently?
	We don't know.
	Well, things have been shaken up.
	Has there been new staff put into place?
	It's on its way in.
	Okay.
	It's on its way in.
	So we're hoping that we build new relationships with them and we can actually inform them on what's going on.
	Like I said, truth, Nigeria, our reporters on the ground, whenever there's an attack, our guys are on the ground interviewing people, eyewitnesses.
	Now, for news week and for people saying, well, it's not religiously motivated.
	It's not religiously motivated.
	It's a lie from the pit of hell that has been spread by Islamist and Islamic countries all over the world ever since its inception.
	It's not religiously motivated.
	We're nice people.
	Let us in.
	The thousands of Christians are being killed.
	Over 20,000 churches have been attacked or destroyed.
	How many mosques?
	Yeah, I mean, yeah, no mosques have been destroyed.
	A few, but you guys are probably familiar with Christopher Hitchens passed away at cancer a couple years back.
	And he had a saying that Islam has bloody borders.
	And it generally, you know, any place where a sufficiently large population of Muslims comes in contact with people that have a different religion or different culture, there tends to be clashes and fights and violence.
	So that's not really particularly surprising.
	So it comes in three forms.
	It comes with cultural jihad.
	We move in, populate, and every village, every village tells me the same story.
	The survivors of these attacks, every single time, tells me the same story.
	They're like, we had neighbors.
	We lived next to them for 30 years.
	We lived with the Fulani for 30 years.
	Our children played together.
	We did business together.
	Everything was fine until the one day.
	The one day they just weren't in town that one day.
	And then an hour later, boom.
	Militants came.
	Okay, so essentially they're informing the Fulani.
	Or providing cover or they're providing cover or partaking in the attacks themselves.
	Well, yeah.
	Every village, every attack says the same story.
	And when they come in, they shout, Allahu Wakbar.
	They're going after the churches.
	They go after the churches first.
	They desecrate the churches and burn the churches.
	And they go after the pastors.
	They behead the pastors.
	They kill the pastors.
	It is religious because this is how Islam has conquered every nation since its inception, since 640 AD.
	It is how it is conquered.
	And there are more moderate Muslims that have, you know, leaving that kind of ideology.
	But the ideology that is with the Fulani ethnic militia is the same Islam that has conquered and believes in killing anybody that gets in their way that doesn't agree with them.
	And it's right.
	So you're saying, oh, there's Muslims being killed too.
	Yeah, right.
	Because they're non-Fulani Muslims.
	Is there a difference between—are they Sunni Muslims?
	Because I— Sunni Salaf, that's what they are, right?
	The Fulani, the Fulanis that are doing the killing are Sunni.
	So the Muslims that end up getting killed by them, there's a small group of Shias and they're based in one area.
	They're being attacked by the government, but also could be the Fulani too.
	It's a great for them.
	But that is cultural because you're not of the pure blood of Fulani.
	So you're not a true Muslim unless you do this, or we don't even care about you.
	We'll get rid of you.
	You're not part of the Emirate.
	You're a slave.
	Because that's what the Emirate did.
	In 1804, they took on almost as many slaves as the British were exporting out of Africa.
	So they had just as many slaves across their kingdoms.
	And it still exists.
	Slavery still exists in Nigeria, where Islam is.
	So I want to talk about another issue that needs to be brought up.
	We have the killings.
	You have the displaced, the 3.5 million displaced.
	But we have a major kidnap problem going on in Nigeria where right now we know of over 1,000 Christians that are currently being held hostage.
	They're being beaten and starved to death.
	And they're trying to be ransomed out.
	This is just one area we know of.
	Now, here's the thing.
	The Nigerian government knows where these people are.
	We know where the hostage camps are.
	Nothing's being done to rescue these people.
	And we know that there's multiple camps like this in other states.
	But what I know of for sure is a thousand Christians are being held captive right now, being beaten and starved to death.
	And people that are trying to pay the ransom are going bankrupt, having to sell everything they own just to get their people out.
	And if ransom isn't paid, they're getting shot.
	They take a phone, they kidnap people, students, children, women, and they film them being beaten.
	Pay money now, or this is going to continue.
	And that's how the, so they're sending messages, recording it.
	So you get the sell data.
	You can get all that information.
	It's not rocket science.
	You do satellites or drones.
	Find out where they are.
	They happen to be all Christian.
	Because they pay.
	Christians don't want to see this.
	They pay up.
	Muslims won't pay if they get kidnapped.
	Really?
	Well, they're martyred.
	So they know, you know.
	Okay.
	Opportunity.
	Yeah.
	So I'm just, I'm kind of still at a loss for what the actual, you know, save for covert operations by state, which, I mean, that might be something that the State Department's entertaining.
	But there's not a significant appetite for that in the U.S. nowadays.
	You know, like, especially after, you know, with Trump going in and getting into office again and saying that we're going to focus on the United States, I mean, you can see it in the chat.
	There's a lot of people that are saying, well, they don't see how this is America's problem, right?
	So there are some people that are like, well, they're Christians and a lot of America First people tend to be religious.
	So they're like, well, you know, maybe because they're Christians, but there's a lot of people that are America First that are like, I don't see how this is an American problem.
	I don't see how this is something that we have to worry about.
	We have our own problems here, which, you know, I agree in principle, the idea that the United States should be looking after itself first.
	And then they bring up the actual monetary costs.
	Anytime anyone brings up a monetary cost, I'm like, look, man, if you're not talking about Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security, you're not talking about fixing any problem at all.
	I'm against, like we were talking about it earlier in the show, I'm against foreign aid because it tends to actually distort markets and it prevents countries from taking care of themselves.
	So I'm against foreign aid in principle.
	But if the U.S. stops all foreign aid to all other countries, it's not going to fix our deficit.
	It's not going to fix our monetary issues.
	Two things.
	One, Nigerians are here in America already.
	They've been born here.
	Some have immigrated here as they're Nigerian-born.
	There's over a million Nigerians in Texas and Atlanta.
	They say Atlanta is the second biggest Nigerian city, right?
	And if you talk to Nigerians that are in the United States, they tend to be extremely industrious.
	They tend to be very successful in opening businesses and stuff.
	So the idea that if there are Nigerians that are coming to the U.S., that they're coming to get onto some kind of social support, I think that that's actually a good thing.
	Nigerians, when they move to America, they make like 15% more per capita than the average white person because they're so industrious and they are hardworking people.
	So they're not coming in here trying to get on the design on the system.
	They want to hustle and they want to make a good living.
	The second thing I was going to say is that you have this radicalized young Muslim who wants to change, bring about change for their Felony, for terrorism, whatever.
	They get trained.
	They end up sneaking across the desert, going into Europe.
	Some of, have you ever watched these shows?
	This guy travels the border and he sees ID cards and passwords people leave behind as they're crossing the border illegally.
	Nigerians are already there.
	So you can't tell me that this won't, that this does not affect Americans because they're coming in either for a hand up, maybe, but maybe something worse.
	So how do we stop that?
	The joke we have is that this could be solved in six months.
	No money.
	Maybe it's a flight ticket, maybe some jet fuel.
	Masad Boulas is a Nigerian-Lebanese guy.
	His son, Michael, is married to who?
	Tiffany Trump.
	He knows Nigeria.
	Send him over.
	We'll show him who the real Nigerians are.
	Talk to them, bring him to the government and say, how do we solve this in six months?
	Let's make a deal.
	So do you think that it is something that just the right people going in and talking could?
	Because it's my, I mean, from what I've been hearing in this conversation, the problem is at a government of Nigeria level.
	I mean, I understand that Donald Trump does have, you know, if Trump says, okay, we're going to do this or Trump points, you know, if you get the IFSOR on, which is the United States government, you get the IFSOR on you, people tend to make changes in their policy.
	But is that something that would only be changes to safe face and they wouldn't be substantive changes?
	No, there would be substantive changes.
	We've seen it work before.
	Like I said, all we need is willpower and a very, very little acknowledgement from the Trump administration.
	And if there's some resources, a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket would change Nigeria overnight.
	Okay, so what is it that you have got?
	You said you've been to state and you're talking to people at state.
	Are they making any kind of commitments or are they just giving you lip service?
	Or what's going on in D.C. for this?
	Well, they're fact-finding.
	The State Department's been upended.
	A lot of people have been fired from the State Department.
	Things have been consolidated.
	The entire infrastructure of the State Department has been totally changed.
	So do you think that the situation is We're kind of waiting for a state to kind of get its feet back underneath it after all of the changes from the government.
	Yeah.
	So that's what's been happening.
	So we've been meeting with state over the last several months.
	Now we're to a point where they got their footing.
	They have their directives.
	They know what they're looking to do and they're looking for information, real information about what's happening.
	And they're taking us very, very seriously.
	And there is a win-win scenario.
	U.S. could invest in Nigeria in return for mineral rights and resources to get a return on their investment back, predicated on the security of the country.
	And that way there's no money being lost, and it's a gain for our country.
	I mean, simply just having them showing them, saying, look, as Americans, we're not coming in to solve your problem.
	We're coming in here to say what the world is saying.
	So here's what's going on.
	Here's what you need to do to change.
	How can you stop this corruption, remove some of these political corrupt people?
	How do you help your own people reinvest some of that money?
	Some politicians have properties all over the world.
	Some people are just extorting money from the EU, from the U.S. How do we stop that?
	You need to show us this, this, and this.
	Do it yourself.
	How do you do it yourself?
	Do it.
	It's not that you need to show a billion dollars.
	We don't need that.
	We've had that for almost 20 years going into Nigeria.
	It's done nothing.
	So it can be stopped.
	Which is, I mean, like, that's exactly why I say that the problem isn't actually about funding or anything.
	Or I think that the idea of aid is mis, you know, aid is generally misallocated.
	And I think the ideas behind aid are erroneous.
	Like you don't actually produce, you very rarely get the results you want when you send money and food aid and stuff.
	You end up making a client nation or a client population.
	Dependency.
	It depends.
	Well, the biggest problem is that when the aid would come through, they're working with government officials.
	Yeah.
	That's problem number one.
	Even if it's a non-government organization, they'll register something as a nonprofit.
	And then isn't that kind of always what other means of delivery is there?
	If the government is in charge, right, ostensibly, and the government is corrupt, then providing any aid is just providing support to the people that are oppressing the people in Nigeria.
	Well, in our case, at Equipping the Persecuted, we're privately funded, but when we go in with aid, we don't work with government officials.
	We go in, we vet, we identify the people that need it and go through a whole vetting process and we get them the aid they need and we assess the situation.
	So because we don't work with government officials when aid's delivered, we deliver it effectively and make sure the people that need it get it.
	And he doesn't want to do that.
	I don't want to help people that are persecuted.
	I want to help people get a hand up.
	I want to help people have sustainable agriculture, work with their livestock, just get a better education.
	I don't want to do things for them.
	I don't want to provide things.
	I want to see them do it, but just give them maybe, try this, maybe try that.
	Maybe tell me what would work.
	How do we help you?
	And the best thing would do is get these people back to their land.
	Yeah.
	Back to their farms, back to their land.
	They're displaced.
	They're often in some neighbor's place or at a school or not.
	There's not like refugees.
	Are they refugees?
	They're refugee camps.
	They're refugee camps, but they don't get refugee camp material and things from the terrorists.
	The terrorist camp have those UN places.
	There's several up there, well-funded.
	They have the nice tens.
	They got the infrastructure.
	The persecuted Christians are getting nothing.
	So the Fulani militants are looked at as refugees.
	No.
	No, they're nomadic.
	So they're coming around and they're driving people off their land.
	So they go to a Christian village where there's Christians living and they're farming.
	So they're living here.
	They farm there.
	So they're living and farming in their area.
	They come in, they drive them out.
	No longer can they go back to the farm, or they can, they risk it.
	A lot of times they end up being killed, or the Falani come and cut.
	Like right now, it's harvest season.
	So they're going and cutting down crops.
	Corn that's growing, maize that's growing up is being chopped down so they can't use it.
	You know, it's not fully reached fruition.
	So they're cutting it down.
	So they're destroying their farms.
	They're destroying their farms.
	They're destroying it just because they're.
	They don't want them to have success.
	They don't want to have them be sustainable.
	So I'm still not quite sure what it is that the solution or what the United States can do.
	And when I say can do, I'm not just talking about what the U.S. is capable of doing because I mean, look, look, if the U.S. wanted to, the U.S. could go in and take the government out and take over and make it a state if they wanted to.
	But I'm talking about what is something that the American people are going to have the stomach for.
	And if the American people aren't going to have enough of a stomach to do what's necessary to actually help, how do you convince them?
	Because a lot of what I'm hearing is: look, the U.S. can do it.
	Well, we live in a world where America generally doesn't have an appetite for military adventurism, right?
	And I think that you could probably convince most Americans: look, if we're sending some green berets in to teach the, the, you know, teach the people that are oppressed how to fight, they might be able to do that.
	But it doesn't sound like the Christians have any kind of organized resistance.
	You said yourself they don't even have guns.
	So they're not going to be able to prop up some kind of militia that can fight the Fulani.
	So I'm still kind of at a loss as to what to do here.
	It very well could happen.
	It very well could happen.
	Part of our ministry and what we do is we work with village security teams.
	So that's risen in the last five years.
	They call them vigilante, which is a bad word for us.
	They're local people who are trained by hunters how to use weapons, how to defend villages, any attack, they respond first.
	And we've been working with village security teams and giving them training and giving, and it has been successful at thwarting off attacks and saving a lot of lives, which separates us from other missions because we do get our hands dirty a little bit and working with working with these guys.
	And there is a sense, there is a thing.
	And even local Christian governors are saying, you know what, guys, government's not protecting you.
	Go defend your own land.
	Yeah.
	Go defend your own land.
	Former leaders have said that too.
	Christians, you need to defend yourself.
	And Nigerians.
	And so we're doing everything we can on a legal basis.
	Like we're just a nonprofit.
	I can't give them weapons, but we can give them training.
	We can show them basic intelligence gathering methods and measures to prevent and thwart off attacks to save lives.
	And that's what we've been doing on the ground out there.
	And so it is very possible.
	And there is a very motivated group that if they had a leg up.
	So how do you convince Americans and State Department that that's a worthy cause?
	So that's a stopgap.
	That's because you're not doing anything.
	The big thing is, America's the superpower.
	No one's denying that.
	Nigerians don't deny that.
	They respect everything America does.
	When Trump says Nigeria is a shithole, they said, you're right.
	It is.
	We need help.
	So Europe needs to be told this is what you can do to help.
	You're not going to get any help from Europe.
	I don't buy that from you.
	You know what I'm saying?
	He was in the UN condemning the EU and all that.
	Britain needs to help.
	It's your colony.
	Fix it.
	Help us.
	Do something.
	Instead of doing this, let's do this.
	So these kind of things can be no money, maybe a plane ticket, maybe jet fuel, just conversations.
	And by the way, I just want to say this: as far as the EU is concerned, they've come out and said that the killing is occurring because of climate change.
	That's another one.
	I'm not kidding.
	I did not make that up.
	Thanks, EU.
	Isn't cow manure, isn't that the biggest?
	Yeah, all these people are being killed because of climate change, according to the EU.
	So he can tell you where their mind is.
	Clowns.
	Right now.
	Even if it was climate change, the Fulani are, they say because of the encroachment, the arable lands are being pushed south and the Fulani got to come down further.
	They're still finding Christians to kill.
	So if it's climate change, great.
	But the primary deserts.
	So the north of Nigeria is pretty much desert, rocks and deserts.
	So they say that's growing, encroaching on the arable land.
	So Felani, who take their cattle down south during the rainy season to get water and fed and then come back up to sell, they're causing problems.
	But the ones that are actually doing the fighting and killing, they're nomads.
	They're not farmers.
	Exactly.
	They have no passport, no ID.
	They're just coming in.
	They've been trying to talk about this for years since the 60s grazing routes.
	They don't want to do that.
	You don't tell us where to go.
	We can take our cattle wherever we want.
	And the Christians are farming and using land.
	Of course, there's going to be conflict, but who handles that conflict?
	Is it the government?
	Is it the military?
	Is it a discussion between the Christian and the Muslims?
	Yeah.
	Those kind of things are easily talked about without money.
	So we can go in as America and say, let's have a sit down.
	We'll just sit and watch.
	We'll cheer you on.
	You guys talk and we'll chime in when we need it.
	Okay.
	But they're not seeing those people.
	That's what we joke about this.
	The State Department's blinking.
	I was in Abuja when Blinken came through.
	He came through twice.
	And I saw the list of people he was going to see.
	None of these people have a skin in the game.
	They're all people that the U.S. State Department at that time, Biden's time, wanted to see talk to Blinken.
	No problem.
	Yeah, we have a terrorist problem, terrible, but it's farmer herder.
	We just need to, you know, a little bit more money here, a little bit more money there, and we'll be fine.
	Right.
	So, yeah, I'm just looking to see.
	I'm looking to see what kind of news I can find on what Rubio is actually talking about doing.
	He hasn't said much.
	So there is no policy on Nigeria.
	All the documents that you look at from the State Department are from 2023 and 24.
	That's one thing that we're trying to get the State Department to advise the administration to come up with an actual policy on.
	They have policies on visas, policies on other things, but there's real no policy on how to solve Nigeria.
	Yeah, because I mean, everything's been upended at the State Department.
	So what we've been told is that Trump wanted to fix, look at America issues first and get all that done and in process.
	Then we'll start looking at foreign policy and interests.
	And we're at the point now where they're starting to look at foreign policy and interests.
	Yeah, so here's a piece.
	I'm not sure what just mania is, but it says U.S. senators call for Nigeria to be redesignated a country of particular concern.
	A coalition of Republican senators in the United States has formally requested that Secretary of State Marco Rubio reconsider labeling Nigeria as a country of particular concern under the International Religious Freedoms Act, citing persistent acts of violence and terrorism targeting religious minorities.
	The senators contend that Christians across Nigeria have been facing ongoing and extensive attacks.
	According to Sahara reports, the appeal was delivered through a joint letter endorsed by Senators Ted Budd, Josh Hawley, Pete Ricketts, Ted Cruz, and James Lankford.
	The lawmakers pointed out that Nigeria was previously classified as a CPC by former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in December 2020 due to serious violations of religious freedom committed largely by non-state actors, including Boko Haram and other terrorist organizations.
	I know you guys say that it's the Fulani, but do you think that in all of this stuff that we've read so far, like all the official pieces, it's always Boko Haram.
	That's that's name.
	That's all you hear.
	Is that functionally accurate?
	Or is it something that's going to get these types of bills or these types of designations, get them passed because they are names that the American people and the senators and stuff are familiar with?
	Because again, the name Filani, I'd never heard that before today.
	So we said genocide at the top of the show, right?
	So genocide, the definition of genocide is any means or any of the following acts committed and it's intent to destroy in whole or in part.
	Whether you kill one or whether you kill a thousand, that's the start of a genocide.
	Killing group members, causing serious harm, inflicting life conditions to cause destruction, preventing births, forcibly transfer of children.
	So we say this is a genocide, a targeted campaign against Christians.
	It's either an ethnic group or a religious group.
	This is a definite religious group.
	So this is a genocide.
	Let's call it what it is.
	Let's get this designation back, at least to make a statement, and let's stop the killings.
	And then let's get the talks.
	The country of particular concern, it needs more teeth, though.
	It needs more teeth and more, like CPC is kind of lip service, in my opinion.
	It's important to make a statement, but the CPC needs to come with teeth.
	But just to explain the situation of country of particular concern, during Trump's first administration, he designated Nigeria as a country of particular concern.
	We saw attacks decrease during that time.
	Biden came into office within the first week.
	Nigeria was taken off the CPC list.
	Do you know what the motivation for that was?
	Yeah, the Nigerian government said, we're working on everything you gave us, these requirements, we did it.
	Take us off.
	No problem.
	That's what they did.
	And there was no kind of investigation.
	There's no criteria that needs to be met.
	It's just the word of the government.
	And then what you see now, again, is an increase in attacks where this, on average, it was about 5,000 a year.
	Now we're at 7,000 Christians killed this year alone in six months since January 1st.
	And you said there's about 100,000 in the past 20 years or so?
	Yeah.
	I mean, so inadvertently or whatever you want to say, indirectly, there's over 300,000 have been killed by either by being starved out, by injury, by health, whatever.
	So indirectly, it's well over that.
	100,000 by bullet, machete, burning, burning.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the policy, you know, because like I said, solve it today.
	Let's do it.
	Well, I mean, you know, that's, you know, that's where we're here to, you know, enlighten people on what the issue is, but also what can be done.
	And again, my thought process is the American people are very focused, or at least conservatives, the people that are supportive of the Trump administration, right?
	Because the left is going to do the same things that you're talking about.
	They're going to say, oh, no, everything's fine.
	You know, there's no problem.
	The Christians are doing just great.
	This is all just some kind of BS because the knee-jerk reaction, we were talking about this a little bit earlier, the knee-jerk reaction from the left is that Christians are essentially not worthy of being protected or being paid attention to.
	In fact, they should be attacked.
	Like Charlie Kirk was just murdered and his Christian faith had a lot to do with it.
	You know, the LGBT groups out there really look at Christians and they believe that they have been persecuted by the Christians.
	And now is the time for the LGBT groups to fight back.
	So whether it be using law affair like the cake issue in Colorado, that got to the Supreme Court, the bake the cake bigot, that was an attack on Christians.
	That wasn't about the couple couldn't find a place to actually make the cake.
	They actually were going around to multiple places looking for someone to say no.
	The point was they wanted to make an example of Christians that were trying to trying to, you know, that were professing their faith and saying, look, my faith doesn't allow me to do this because I don't agree with you.
	Not that they're looking to go ahead and inhibit your life in any way.
	Not that they're looking to go and stop you from being married, but they're specifically looking for someone to say, I have religious convictions, so we should attack you, right?
	That was the whole point of that.
	And now you've seen attacks, instead of taking the form of lawfare, now they're taking the form of actual violence.
	You get a bunch of people that have the LGBT ideology.
	They believe that because Christianity actually does judge, that has a sense of right and wrong that doesn't align with their own, they believe that they're under attack.
	So the way that they defend themselves is to attack Christian children in schools, right?
	There's been multiple, multiple shootings where the shooter was trans and the justification was, well, Christians are hateful.
	You know, they hate me.
	So I went and I did this.
	And these people, these Christians that are the victims of these attacks are in no way doing anything to harm any kind of trans or LGBT person at all, right?
	They're mostly going after kids.
	And the same thing was the justification for the Charlie Kirk shooting.
	Well, he's a hateful person.
	And the only hateful thing they can come up with is he doesn't validate my lived experience.
	He makes me feel bad because he says, no, you can't actually change from man to woman or woman to man.
	If you're born a man, you're going to always be a man.
	If you're born a woman, you're always going to be a woman.
	And to actually say these things is something that specifically the LGBT groups really consider an affront.
	They consider it an attack on themselves.
	And the more loosely connected to reality people actually think that violence is an acceptable response to this.
	So that's why the left doesn't want to get involved in helping to defend Christians.
	That's why you'll hear any number of leftists just poo-pooing the idea that Christians are being attacked for their Christianity in Nigeria or in the U.S.
	They don't want to, they don't want to say that's actually what's happening.
	So you're going to hear, have pushback of just the idea of helping them because they're Christians.
	I mean, again, back to Charlie Kirk, there were leftists protesting Charlie Kirk's funeral.
	How insane is that?
	I mean, this is so ridiculous to think this guy got killed and we're going to go and protest his funeral.
	That's the level of vitriol that Christians are facing now.
	And again, I'm an agnostic guy, right?
	I don't have a particular, particularly strong faith in any religion.
	I'm kind of like, I don't know what's, you know, I don't know what happens after you die.
	I don't know.
	But I do know that there are definitely people out there that look at Christians and all they see is Jerry Falwell.
	They see the mega church pastors that are making a bunch of money.
	And they see Catholics that have, you know, Catholic altar boys that have been molested and the church covering it up.
	They see only the bad things of the past 30 or 40 years.
	And they say, well, that's Christianity.
	So there's no reason to defend Christianity, ignoring the fact that our entire moral system here in the West, everything that we consider right and good is based on Christian morals, right?
	Like if our society was based on the Aztec religion, we would think it's right and good to kill children so that way the sun keeps coming up.
	You know, the Aztecs were sacrificed, human sacrifice was totally normal.
	If we were an Islamic country based with an Islamic theocracy, we would think that it's perfectly fine to kill people for being gay.
	Not just say, oh, we don't agree with the act of being gay.
	Literally, throw them off the highest building in town.
	These kind of things, the idea that Western morale or the morality that we live under, that we have, even people largely on the left, the morality that they espouse, that they say is actually right and good, to think that it's not connected to Christianity is an error.
	And yet the left will swear up and down that Christians are the problem.
	So how do you convince a population that has now been convinced that Christianity is the problem?
	How do you convince them, hey, it's actually a worthwhile endeavor to try to protect these people?
	Well, for those on the left that may view Christianity that way, let's look at it from throw Christianity out of it, go into a human perspective of men, women, children, elderly who can't run fast enough that are being slaughtered,
	being hacked to death with machetes, being burned alive, being treated in the most horrific ways, being left for dead, just from a human perspective.
	If there's any kind of humanity or morality at all in their hearts, these lives are worth saving.
	These are innocents, innocent people that have done no wrong that are getting slaughtered and being killed.
	Just from a human standpoint, they deserve protection.
	They deserve intervention.
	When evil happens, good needs to fight it.
	And there's nothing more evil than the slaughtering of children, innocent children, burning a grandmother alive as she's holding her grandkids.
	This is what we've experienced.
	I mean, what's the opposite?
	If you don't intervene, if you don't allow for voices to be raised or heard, then what are you doing?
	It's okay because my truth is to kill you, to slaughter you, to take over your land?
	Is that what we're saying here?
	Because if that happens, then what's going to stop them from going to Ghana, to Burkina, to Europe, to England, to U.S.
	Well, I mean, it seems the answer is nothing, right?
	Because that's kind of what Islam does.
	And look at history.
	And there's a misconception with a lot of people that where Christians are persecuted, that Christianity explodes.
	That does not happen in the case of Islam.
	That does not happen in the case of Islam at all.
	Virtually every country that has been Islamized has not been de-Islamized without a war.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I mean, you can get to Spain for that.
	And the Christian populations shrink, shrink and shrivel and shrivel almost down to nothing.
	And people don't talk about how Islam conquered its way all the way into Europe.
	They even conquered Spain.
	Entire languages, entire cultures were wiped off the map that are no longer in existence.
	And it wasn't until the Crusades and the Europeans got their act together and pushed Islam back to the Middle East.
	But all that time, they enslaved people.
	They eradicated entire cultures.
	They put people in slavery until they died.
	And this is a history that no one really talks about or knows about.
	But the only way this evil was stopped was by force.
	It wasn't done through diplomacy.
	It wasn't done through things like this.
	It only responds to force.
	Evil is only stopped by force.
	Yeah, I mean, the concept of, you know, the only thing that will stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun.
	Correct.
	The Nigerian government way of trying to solve this issue is give the Fulani ethnic militia money to stop killing people.
	Yeah, they've paid off.
	Governments have come in deals with them.
	And it's like, that's not going to solve it.
	We're going to be nice to them.
	We're going to give you money.
	We're going to give you trucks.
	We're going to give you all sorts of stuff.
	Just quit killing people.
	That didn't work.
	I mean, look at the Christians.
	So as a Christian, the golden rule, love your neighbor as yourself.
	So how do I love myself?
	I know how to wake up in the morning.
	I know how to get sleep.
	I know how to take care of myself, bathe myself, feed myself.
	I want the same for my neighbor.
	And you ask any Christian, that's what they, they'll say, you know, if evil comes, bad things come, I turn my cheek, you know.
	But they've said, now they're saying I've turned both cheeks.
	I got no more cheeks to turn.
	So what happens?
	They want to care for their neighbors, Muslim, Christian, animists, whatever.
	And they were welcomed in with Christian charity.
	Christian charity.
	You know, come on in, neighbor.
	We'll share with food.
	We'll share land.
	We'll do this with you.
	They were given Christian charity.
	And that's where leftists and very naive people, and I say even some naive Christians, believe that the Christian charity is going to somehow work by letting them in your land.
	And they know, and Islam knows how to take advantage of it every step of the way until they get the population and the political control.
	Look at Dearborn, Michigan right now.
	Look at what's happening in Minneapolis.
	When they get the population and they get the politics, they take over territory and push everybody out.
	And then eventually, you know, if it grows too much, there will be a time where violence occurs because this is how it's been since 640 AD.
	We have to acknowledge what's going on.
	So it is the moral and the right thing to do to stand up to evil, and it won't take a whole lot to do it.
	And it can be done.
	And why should people care?
	It should be done.
	Why should people care?
	Because if this came to your backyard, if this came to your neighborhood, came to your town, wouldn't you want somebody standing up for you?
	Does this go further than just Nigeria?
	Now, you said the Fulanis are nomadic, and they're not, you know, they don't consider themselves Nigerian.
	Are other countries that surround Nigeria subject to the same thing?
	And could you convince the other countries surrounding Nigeria that this is a clear and present danger to them?
	So Nigeria, 2001, as you alluded to, September 7th, that Friday.
	September 11th was a Tuesday.
	September 7th, that Friday happened.
	some Christians supposedly offended a Muslim, and then the Muslims rounded up themselves and started to attack Christian areas in Joss City, where I was living.
	From that, you got...
	So you were there?
	I was there.
	Yeah, I was trying to save people from being killed.
	I was literally helping people get into my house from there being chased down the street.
	So you saw this happening.
	And then regionally, Niger, Mali, Burkina Faso, they started to see a rise of terrorists coming in.
	There's people wanting to fight the government that they had.
	And for good reasons, sometimes there's corruption.
	But they took it to a further extent, like the Fulanis, like the Bokoram, they kind of merged together with Al-Qaeda and ISIS, and they started to do this.
	So the government, instead of trying to stop it, they just rose up and said, we're going to do a coup.
	The president can't do it.
	His willy-nilly stuff is not going to work.
	We're going to rise up and be over military-wise and fight.
	And who helped them?
	The Russians.
	So Burkina Faso is now a military rule and it's well funded by Russians.
	In fact, some Burkina Beys and Malians in Nigeria were signing up to go to Ukraine to fight with Russia.
	Niger also has been a coup.
	The military is a ruling there, and Russia's there as well as in Mali.
	So it's just going to keep spreading.
	And so all this is happening.
	No one's saying or doing anything.
	France left.
	They just took off.
	So now Russia's taking up the vacuum and filling in.
	So if Nigeria, if that stuff doesn't happen in Nigeria, you're going to lose that sort of democracy in Africa, specifically West Africa, because Nigeria is, they say it's the trigger on the gun.
	If you take Africa, the continent, turn it, the triggers where Nigeria is.
	Yeah, so like I imagine, you know, you got, you know, the countries that are out, I mean, Liberia is fairly close, probably a thousand miles away or whatever.
	And that kind of those countries there, they're largely influenced by the U.S., but that hasn't been, or that is no longer the case, correct?
	Well, again, they're doing diplomacy aid.
	They're saying, we'll give you this money, but then take these LGBT, take these issues and make sure you're doing this as well.
	Well, they've stopped that, so it doesn't happen.
	But so Burkina Faso wouldn't listen to France because France was telling them to just play nice.
	And they wouldn't.
	So they said, well, the only way we can stop it is militarily.
	So that's why the military rose up, dethroned the president, and now is a military dictator in Burkina Faso.
	Same in Niger, because they know the threat that these terrorists, these militants are doing.
	And the only way to stop it is with force.
	And that's what they're doing.
	Yeah.
	And if Nigeria falls, just say if Nigeria falls, so goes the rest of Africa.
	You think that the whole rest of Africa?
	The whole rest of Africa falls.
	Look at the influence.
	Why don't you unpack that for me?
	The most populous country in Africa, 220 million.
	It's one of the most rich with natural resources, oil, all that.
	And if Nigeria goes and they get that population, they get those natural resources and minerals.
	Nigeria is the most populous country in all of Africa.
	220 million.
	Even more so than like Egypt, huh?
	Oh, yeah.
	Yes.
	By far.
	So they will then easily take over Benin, Togo, Ghana.
	They'll have the whole continent in short of a decade.
	Okay.
	And it will be a bloodbath, and millions and millions of lives will be destroyed.
	So they're influential.
	So Nigeria as a nation has called into peacekeeping missions for African Union, ECOWAS, different things for themselves.
	So they've gone in Liberia.
	They've gone into Sudan.
	At the same time, they've stopped crises in East Africa.
	They've been part of discussions for South Africa.
	South Africa probably has a little bit better economy, but it's a worse situation than Nigeria as far as the communism and socialism goes.
	But if Nigeria falls into these hands of militant Islamists, it's just going to give everyone else, hey, all bets are off.
	Let's go.
	Let's just rise up and take over.
	They're already creeping into northern, you know, Benin and Togo, northern Ghana.
	And Ghana has enacted laws to stop Fulani from doing things.
	Togo's trying.
	Benin's trying, but it's just waiting for Nigeria to fall.
	Okay, so, I mean, you know, I get what you're saying about the influence of Nigeria, but I'm not sure that I understand why it is that Nigeria is such a linchpin.
	I mean, obviously, the population is a big deal.
	Does the population overall want to fight back?
	I mean, you said it's 220 million, half or so are Muslims.
	So they mean that's 110 million people, 110 million Christians that are like, oh, you know, we're on the chopping block and they don't have any political power to influence the government or they don't seem to be able to.
	Is that the case?
	So what I said in the beginning was the 36 states, the federal government, the oil money, the oil revenues that come in, they divide it to the states.
	Here is your pot.
	Here's your pot.
	Okay, then the local, here's your pot, here's your pot.
	So it's the, so it's coming from the top down.
	All the people.
	I mean, you look at the map, and is there a consolidation of Christians, or are they spread out throughout the country?
	Is it like South is predominantly Christian?
	Okay.
	And it gets to about 50-50 in the middle, and then it's mostly Muslimism.
	So you look at the capital of Abuja, which is right in the center with the word Nigeria.
	South of Abuja, Christian.
	North of Abuja, right at the middle belt, 50-50.
	And then above the middle belt is Islam.
	So you'd imagine, I mean, just by the look of it, you'd imagine that the Christians have more of the resources as opposed to maybe not the oil resources, but they don't have the military.
	Yeah.
	Military is often in the hands of the president.
	So the president sends troops in, you know, you're at the mercy of whatever the president wants.
	The governor's supposed to say, we want troops, but the president could say, no, I'm going to send them anyways.
	And he gets in there and then they do what he needs them to do.
	And the top military command is Fulani.
	Okay.
	So they're nomads that are no longer nomadic.
	So they have city Fulani and then nomadic Fulani.
	The city ones have been settled.
	They've got jobs.
	They're in politics.
	They're in some sort of job.
	And, you know, their ideology could be the same, but just not as aggressive as not holding the weapon.
	But they're allowing things to happen.
	They're just basically like, well, you know, my life is fairly, I'm content in my life here, but I am sympathetic to the ideas.
	Brothers, the other Fulanis.
	Yeah, I mean, can you tell me more about the distinction between the Fulani that are the nomadic and the Fulani that are kind of the ones that are, I guess, normalized?
	Is it possible to use the normal, to convince the normalized to influence the Fulani that are the, I guess, for lack of a better term, the militants?
	Yeah.
	I mean, by and large, like he was describing.
	So if a village has Christian farmers living there, and the Falani have come down for centuries.
	They've all come down.
	They ask the Christian leaders where can they set up their camp?
	They have these mobile tents that they can put up.
	So they set up there.
	They help them with the manure from the cows.
	Life is grand.
	But then, as you said, sometimes militants come in and say, we're going to attack this village tomorrow night.
	You need to either be gone or allow us to cover.
	So they, or we'll kill you, right?
	So they threaten them.
	They can't.
	You talk to Fulani who are trying to stop this.
	They can't because they feel for their own, they're threatening their own lives.
	Yeah.
	And the Christians, or the Christians, they're not the nomads at all, right?
	The Christians are farmers, okay?
	They've had cattle, but they've kept them on ranches, right?
	So, and then the city Fulani are the ones that are settled down.
	They don't have cattle.
	Maybe they have a cattle, but someone else takes care of it.
	But they're in positions of power because of the emirate that happened in 1805, the Giad.
	So the Emir is this, then the politicians, the British made them rulers, made them politicians.
	So the British kind of set up this whole catastrophic system, you know?
	And the Christians will even say this: just let's draw it, let's put a wall in the north.
	You can have it, do what you want with it.
	You have no resources, maybe you have a little bit of nothing as we have, and we'll just take the south, you know, go away.
	I imagine, I mean, if you look at the, just the, the, the fact that the south is where, you know, it looks like all the things that grow grow, and the north is oil's all in the ocean on the south.
	Oh, so the oil is actually, okay, well, I mean, I imagine that's not going to be, well, I mean, that alone points to why the northern people would be pushing to the south because the resources are in the south.
	You know, that's where things grow.
	If the oil is off the coast, you know, that makes perfect sense.
	And I don't, I mean, I don't imagine that as much as we've been talking about if the U.S. kind of just puts a little bit of political pressure, a little, you know, kind of gets, like I said, the ISR on on them, I don't imagine that that's actually going to materially change the situation because the resources, whether or not there are ideologically motivated people, there might be ideologically motivated people that are that are like, I'm willing to fight, but the people that are in positions of power, they know where the resources are.
	They know where the money is.
	And it's not in the desert.
	It's on the coast and in the port and where the rain comes and stuff.
	So how do you deal with that particular dynamic?
	All of the resources are where the Christians are, and all of the aggression is coming from the north where the sand is.
	That's where the discussion, that's what we said.
	If we sit down, dad and his two sons sit down and have a discussion, there could be something, right?
	Dad's respected.
	He's going to be the authority, but he's the moderator, the mediator between the two fighting quarreling brothers.
	Let's have that.
	Let's start with that.
	Because if you show them this is what you get if you continue to do this, this is what they may do or something may happen.
	And let's figure this out.
	Again, it doesn't take money.
	It just takes an effort to someone to say, let's do this.
	Let's talk this through.
	Let's see what you have and let's figure out what we can, you know, what you could do together.
	And, you know, and if that doesn't work, I'm for intervention because if this isn't stopped, there's going to be a lot more dead bodies very, very, very soon.
	And if intervention can happen now, it will stop and prevent a civil war from happening.
	So what is in your mind, what does that intervention look like beyond just the Secretary of State saying, hey, you know.
	Does it look like troops on the ground or is it something, or are you more thinking of, because, I mean, look, it's not going to be the UN, right?
	The U.N. peacekeepers aren't going to be able to do anything.
	A major investment in Nigeria and that investment being protected.
	So you're thinking something along the lines of companies going in to expand on the natural resources there and then possibly the U.S. military protecting that?
	Protecting and just ensuring, well, have the Nigerian government ensure the protection of those investments.
	Otherwise, there's repercussions.
	But I think it's a win-win scenario.
	Nigeria prospers, people aren't being killed, the economy prospers, and that is a very, very strong win-win scenario.
	Yeah, I don't, I don't, I'm not, I don't think that the U.S. has the people of the United States are, I don't think that you could make the case in a strong enough way where you could get public support of that.
	We can get the Trump, we can get Trump support if there's a win-win scenario and a major return of investment back to the United States.
	And I think you can make that case, and I think American people would buy it.
	Okay, we'll flesh that out then.
	How do you convince the American people?
	I mean, look, we're dealing with a population that doesn't trust the government, right?
	The trust in the American government has never been lower, right?
	And you've got an extremely polarized political climate here.
	So half of the country is just going to say no because it's something that Donald Trump talked about doing.
	And again, we've already talked about the way that the left kind of looks at Christians.
	So as soon as they get a whiff of, oh, you're going in to protect Christians, no, you don't want to do that because Donald Trump wants to do it.
	So, I mean, you're talking about the landmine.
	It's the same deal they did in the Congo.
	It's the same negotiations are doing the Congo.
	We could do the same thing in Nigeria.
	And the United States would buy it because, one, saving lives, two, growing our economy and having, you know, and expanding our influence and natural resources.
	I believe that American people that are smart enough would see the advantage in doing this.
	And, you know, yeah, we might have a lot of isolationist skeptics out there, but at the end of the day, if there's money to be made for the government while saving lives, I think those that are in the power and make the decisions will make that decision.
	It's not coming to arm Christians so they can kill Muslims.
	That's not what we're saying.
	The religious tension is there.
	The religious liberties aren't, right?
	The freedom of religion is not.
	So a Muslim who becomes a Christian will be killed by his family, right?
	That's typically, if you're the oldest son and you become a Christian from a Muslim family, you'll be killed.
	So there's no rights for that in the Islamic, in the Sharia law sort of something.
	As a Christian, I want to take care of everyone, my neighbor, myself.
	So I want to do that.
	So you start with the discussion of how can we reduce this tension?
	What can we do?
	Start with the police.
	The police in Nigeria are, I say, useless.
	That's maybe too strong of a word.
	They're not functioning.
	Ineffective.
	They're federal.
	They're paid by the federal government at the whim of the president.
	And they don't know what they're doing in local areas because they're not maybe from that area.
	So start with getting, hey, let's go to states or local police.
	Let's start with there because you're not protecting.
	When a crisis breaks out, the military is often sent in.
	And people don't trust the military now.
	He talks about these reports of people being attacked and killed or people just surviving.
	What were they wearing?
	Military fatigues.
	They're wearing camouflage.
	They've got their names ripped off or they either stole them from a military base or they borrowed them or rented them, as he says.
	So those kind of things.
	Just a discussion on those, right?
	Having that, providing a place to make Nigeria safer, but also it'll make America safer.
	As I said, it'll stop that spread of radical Islam.
	Yeah.
	I'm still, like, I mean, you know, because again, the realities of where the American people are.
	I mean, I see it all the time, right?
	Like, even if you, if you look at our chat now, there's a lot of people that are just like, how is this America's problem?
	Yeah.
	You know, and so I'm trying to.
	It's America's problem because America is, period.
	Yeah.
	You know, I think that's the thing is, I've said this, he's said this.
	It doesn't need money.
	It just needs a sit-down, a discussion, a deal to be made.
	And then eventually we'll say, we'll bring in this business.
	There's a huge market there.
	You know, phone companies have come in from Middle East, from South Africa, made millions, millions of money.
	Cars are being imported from Japan, from, well, Belgium, you know, different European countries.
	They don't want Chinese products.
	Everyone says, do you want original, this good Japanese car, or do you want this cheap Chinese one?
	Do you want this old used iPhone or do you want this new Chinese one?
	Give me the old iPhone.
	They don't want Chinese products.
	So you have a market there that can be easily.
	So there's demand for it then.
	Okay.
	So do you think that there's demand for, I mean, obviously the Christians in Nigeria would be like, look, we want as much help as we can get.
	They just want their voice to be heard first.
	And that's what we're doing.
	We're just raising their voice, amplifying it, getting it heard by the right people.
	Because they've been silenced by the mainstream media.
	It's been widely ignored.
	Go to sit-down look, though, because it seems like one of these groups has a religious view that's just incompatible with any kind of progress in the direction of Christianity, period.
	So, like, how do you convince them?
	Well, if it's if it's, let's say it's governmental at that level.
	So, U.S. government, I said, Masad Boulis and Rubio go over, sit down with the Nigerian government and talk it through.
	They'll address it's not a religious thing, it's a local crisis.
	Well, why is that?
	What, what, why is it like this?
	What can we do to make sure that it doesn't grow, doesn't spread?
	But we think we're hearing from other people that it is religious, right?
	So, this is why we think it is.
	And we'll put that CPC designation.
	It's kind of toothless, as Judd said, but it's also something we can use against them.
	You're not going to get this age, you're not going to get this status with the CPC country, particularly concern.
	So, getting that discussion in, you know, we've got businesses who want to come in, whether it's from another African country or from America, from Europe, whatever, they want to come in.
	They can't, they won't because it's unsafe.
	Yeah, the electricity grid is terrible there.
	They've had problems with it.
	They've had so much money gone into it.
	They sell more electricity outside of the country than they use in the country.
	So, there's electricity to be used.
	They're just not making it stable.
	How they generate their electricity?
	Is there dams?
	There's oil, there's gas.
	There's yeah, yeah.
	The other thing I was thinking about was guns because it seems like only one part is allowed to have guns legally or loosely, illegally.
	So, how would they be able to have them?
	Yeah, I mean, you need those.
	Yeah, to that point, how do you if hypothetically the U.S. were to send in military advisors?
	You know, because I mean, that's the job of the Green Berets.
	Like, people think a lot of people think special forces are special forces, but like the Green Berets, the job of them, their job is ostensibly to go in, find existing military forces or existing resistance forces and train them up and make them a functional military unit that can actually win engagements.
	But if there is only a handful of private contractors and there's not weapons and et cetera, how do you arm the population if the law prevents them from having arms and the means to defend themselves?
	What good is a couple hundred Green Berets if there's no one actually to train?
	I mean, the thing is, again, it's education.
	So, you arm just a random Nigerian, they have to learn how to use a gun, clean a gun, all that, all that.
	But you, you have people that are already doing it.
	These hunting groups, they call them Hunters Association, but it's hilarious, but not hilarious, but they're armed and they're willing to fight.
	But their guns are man-made, they're pipes and just different things welded on.
	There are groups that are willing to protect villages, like I said, vigilante, it's a bad word, but that's what they call their groups that are told to roam the places where the hotspots are, and they do that.
	They're willing to do that, they're doing it.
	So, let's help them with the if the weapons have to be brought in and the government of Nigeria has to sign off on what's being in so we know the serial numbers and all the munitions, whatever, fine, whatever.
	But until you do that, you don't know what's going to happen.
	Right now, they're being outgunned.
	Just to explain, so they're called the vigilante, they're village security teams.
	Yeah, these are people from the community, they're from their own village, they have the approval of the government to have they have the approval of the government to protect their village.
	They just are just not armed, they're not armed with AK-47s, they're not armed with the same weapons as the terrorists are.
	If these guys got approval to defend themselves, you guarantee that a lot of the killings would stop if they had the ability to protect themselves.
	And that wouldn't take a huge investment from the United States government.
	I mean, that just wouldn't that just take the government of Nigeria to allow them to do that.
	So, is that something that the state could pressure them into?
	Be like, hey, it is definitely something the state could pressure them into.
	Okay, so a sit-down with Marco Rubio himself went over there and just said, hey, let these people defend themselves from these attacks.
	And is that something that's out of the question?
	Or we're just waiting.
	Do you think that it's just that the Rubio going over?
	No, no, I mean, well, I mean, possibly.
	I mean, look, Marco Rubio's.
	In the grand scheme of things, it's not a big ask.
	Yeah.
	But it also puts the Nigerian government on notice.
	It's like, how serious are you about protecting your own citizens?
	And the citizens will be watching.
	Sure.
	And watching to see how that government reacts.
	What do you think that they, what do you think the rest of, so say for hypothetically, Marco Rubio, say he doesn't go, but he sends the deputy over and he's got the full authorization.
	What the deputy says is what the State Department is the official position of the State Department.
	What does the rest of the world say?
	What do the groups in the Middle East, what are the Middle Eastern countries say?
	Is it something that they just we don't care?
	Or what would the UN say?
	You know, is there going to be pushback from the rest of the world?
	Yeah, there'll be pushback from the rest of the world because the rest of the world is bought in with the far left and it's funded and controlled by Islamists.
	So anything that goes against their narrative and their objective, they're going to raise all holy hell about and they'll be like, oh, Trump wants a civil war in Nigeria.
	They'll throw out all sorts of insanity.
	I guarantee they will.
	But who cares what they say?
	They're in the wrong.
	They have been in the wrong.
	They've been advocating every wrong policy for the last 20 years and have destroying everything it touches.
	So.
	Well, they're not going to do anything.
	They're not going to do anything.
	No, but they'll just cry.
	Is it likely that there would be so the U.S. sends some kind of support and the Christians decide they're going to start defending themselves?
	Will there be an influx of Islamic radicals, of other Muslims from other countries?
	Will they say this is where the jihad is now, like there was in Iraq and in Afghanistan?
	Is that something that's possible?
	Could this turn into a larger conflict?
	Because they say, okay, look, they're Christians.
	Now they're attacking the Muslims.
	Half the country is Muslim, so we have to go and defend our Muslim brothers.
	Is that something that you could see?
	I don't think it'll be to that extent.
	We have to engage other countries, Middle East, Europe, just to say, look, stop giving aid, stop giving your resources, your food, whatever.
	Just stop it for a while.
	Let's take this action.
	This action of talking to the government and say, we're all coming together to say this.
	If they don't want to come, then it's on them.
	But we're going to try this.
	Let's give this a chance.
	If it's arming or these vigilante groups or make them better equipped, that would send the signal to any other group that, hey, these guys are crypt too now.
	So I don't want to, I'm not risking my life.
	Right now, I ought to gun them.
	I can just go in and do random, you know, I don't have to worry about that.
	But if now I'm being equal, now my life maybe is more valuable and I will stop.
	And I don't think it'll rise up a bigger terrorist from Northeast.
	They'll continue to be driven down by the military, but the Filani militants, I think, would see the reaction and I believe would slow down or stop.
	Yeah.
	I agree with his point.
	Yeah.
	Do you think that the possibility of it becoming an inflection point prevents the or do you think that that's what prevented the previous administration from doing anything?
	Or is it just a matter of, well, they don't really believe that there is a problem that the U.S. should be involved in?
	I think it was both.
	I mean, for sure, it was.
	I mean, even Nigerians will say, we don't need Americans to solve our problem.
	We need to be heard.
	We need to make sure that the Nigerian government is seeing what's actually happening.
	I think that's the first step, right?
	It's not about, and they weren't there.
	All that the Biden administration was listening to was the Nigerian government.
	They weren't listening to the people.
	We would, you know, if we said scenario, we took over Masa Boulis Rubio, showed him what's going on in these IDP camps, show him what's going on in these where the terrorists or the bandits have kidnapped people and are torturing them, show them what's happening, he'd have a better take on what's going on.
	That would probably be our first thing.
	But we need action.
	We need action and we need it to happen now.
	Like I said, if action does not happen, it's going to be a bloodbath.
	There will be a civil war.
	And, you know, right now we have 3.5 million Christians that are barely getting any aid, any help.
	We have a crisis on the ground right now where people are starving.
	People are dying of diseases.
	They weren't getting any help from USAID in the first place.
	But I'm making an appeal to the audience.
	There are innocent people.
	There are Nigerians that need your help.
	If you don't want the government to get involved, if you feel compelled, donate, support.
	Yeah.
	And I'll plug my website, equippingthepersecuted.org.
	If you want to help persecuted Christians in Nigeria, partner with us.
	Call your senator, call your congressman.
	If you want the United States to get involved, ask your senator and congressman to get involved politically, intervene on behalf of persecuted Christians.
	But doing nothing is going to result in a lot more death.
	Sure.
	Well, why don't you guys?
	I mean, that's kind of like a wrap-up.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	No, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	We're just about two hours as it is.
	So, Kyle, if you have any closing thoughts, and actually, Judd, where can people find you?
	So they can go to equipping the persecuted.org, all one word, equipping the persecuted.org.
	Partner with our organization.
	We got boots on the ground.
	We respond to these attacks within 48 hours.
	We work with village security teams.
	We do medical interventions in the IDP camps.
	We need all the help we can get.
	We're underfunded.
	I don't get grants, government funding.
	It's all private donations.
	And then if you want to follow what's happening in Nigeria from a new standpoint, go to truthnigeria.com and pray for these guys because they're risking their lives every day to tell the truth about what's happening and share the articles, help their voices be heard.
	Kyle, you got anything last words?
	I mean, we're doing, so ICON is International Committee on Nigeria.
	The website is i-c-on-iconhelp.org.
	We're more the behind the scenes.
	We're gathering data and information.
	So we've got some of his guys, some of our guys, going out.
	And when the crisis happens, they document it using an app.
	And it's evidence.
	It's locked in the cloud.
	So it's evidence.
	We can use that for if it's the international criminal courts or it's the UN, those kinds of things can happen.
	So I think, yeah, just get aware of what's going on.
	You can say, how does this affect America?
	It already does.
	You don't even realize why should we be given billions of dollars?
	We shouldn't.
	We shouldn't be involved militarily, but we are.
	So what are we going to do?
	We're going to have to figure out how to stop it.
	So let's, as he said, contact your Senate, your Congress, get them to say, hey, look, I know there's things on Nigeria.
	What's going on?
	Let's stop this.
	Get President Trump.
	As I said, he says something and it happens.
	So just, you know, as much as you can, if you can get to any legislature, any politician, do it, Democrat or Republican.
	Okay.
	And you have an ex-account people can follow you at or anything like that?
	No?
	Yeah, you can follow me, Judd Saul on X. Judd, J-U-D-D-S-A-U-L.
	Follow us at Equip the Persecuted on X. You can find me on Facebook, Equipping the Persecuted on Facebook.
	Just thank you for having us on, and we encourage your audience to spread the word.
	This is a genocide that has been completely ignored, and we need people to speak about it.
	Okay.
	Kyle?
	Yeah, ICON Help One, I-C-O-N-H-E-L-P-1 is our X account.
	Yeah, again, just get things, go online, retweet the things that you're sharing today, the other articles, and get people aware.
	You know, when Bill Maire said that, it came out of the blue.
	We didn't know how, why, but it's stirred up the awareness now.
	Awesome.
	All right.
	Well, Judd, Kyle, thank you guys for being a part, Carter.
	Thanks for pushing the buttons.
	We appreciate you coming.
	And so you guys can check out clips from the show all weekend, and Tim and the rest of the IRL gang will be, well, not myself, but Tim and the guys are still out on location, and they'll be doing IRL tonight.
	And so you can catch clips from the IRL this week over the weekend.

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