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Sept. 9, 2023 - Candace Owens
33:21
Is Steven Avery Guilty?
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All right, guys. Happy Saturday.
This is going to be a special episode of The Candace Show because what we're going to be doing is once a week we're going to be covering Convicting a Murderer.
It is out now. Finally, the wait is over.
It premiered on X last night.
The first episode, the second episode, completely free also on Daily Wire Plus.
And today we are going to be unpacking those first two episodes with Brandon Tatum.
Obviously, he needs no introduction.
A former police officer, which is why I wanted to have you here to discuss this case because not only are you a former police officer, but also you were a making a murderer stan.
I think that's what the kids are saying these days.
Yes, yes. I'm kind of embarrassed about it, but I watched every episode back to back all night.
I didn't even go to sleep.
I went to sleep at 6 a.m.
because I had to see the next episode and see what was coming up.
So I have to admit that I was that guy.
What was it for you that was so compelling about the narrative?
Because obviously Netflix, millions of people watch this.
They had felt the exact same way and they all describe it as a binge after they saw the first episode.
What was it for you? I think they did a really good job on a cliffhanger, man.
They take you all the way to the end of the segment and they leave you wondering, Is there something else going on?
Did he do this? How did they get the evidence this way?
And then it makes you want to watch another one.
Then they lead it in and they build it up and you got to watch another one and another one and another one.
And for me, having a police mind, it was very intriguing because they flip-flopped a lot on whether they made you feel like he did it or didn't do it.
Made you feel like he was innocent, but then was he?
And so they did a really good job on that.
You know, whether they got the facts and stuff correct, Outside of that, when it comes to the way they produced it, the way they led you on, it really compelled people to continue to watch to the very end.
Okay, so people that are listening, if for any reason you haven't yet watched Convicting a Murderer or you don't know what we're talking about, Making a Murderer was a smash hit docuseries that was on Netflix, and essentially it told you the story of Stephen Avery, and it's an incredible story.
Anytime you hear that the justice system failed, which it did actually fail, Stephen Avery, at least the first time around, you know, when you hear a story before they were able to analyze DNA, you have this man who was actually put into prison for 18 years, six years, six of those years were something else, which we'll get into later, but for 12 years he served a prison sentence.
People believed that he had actually raped and left for dead this young woman.
She pointed him out in a lineup and said, this is the guy that did it.
Turns out DNA, tech gets a little better, and he didn't actually commit the crime.
So Netflix opens up, tells you the story of this man, his homecoming.
He's innocent. He's Stephen Avery, and he's just happy.
He seems humble about it, you know, almost humble.
He's hugging his family. He's kissing babies.
And then, like you said, they drop a cliffhanger at the end.
He gets back home, and suddenly he's being investigated for...
A murder. The murder of a young woman named Teresa Hallback.
And suddenly people are thinking, is this innocence project?
Oh my gosh, they must be going after this man.
And you kind of thought maybe they might be doing that.
Yeah, I mean, they set it up good, man.
When you have a man going to prison for what they claim 18 years and he didn't do anything wrong.
This man, his beard was this big.
He finally got out.
He was a good old country boy, hugging all his aunties and stuff.
And it made you feel like, there's no way this dude got out of jail and committed a crime like that.
But who would? You have to be the dumbest person on planet Earth for you to do all that time as an innocent man just to get out and murder somebody.
So it was almost like his life story is an easy lead-in to a mystery.
And they kind of left it at that and it intrigued me to figure out, did this guy do this?
Because there's different angles to it, right?
You can get out and you feel very confident that you've been vindicated so you can do whatever you want because nobody's going to believe that you would kill somebody after you've just done that.
That's right. The city, the little small town of everybody that know everybody.
I think they got probably two detectives that's been there their whole life.
They've been doing detective work since they were 15.
So you have two detectives and then you say, maybe there's a vendetta against him.
And they're like, you know what? You embarrassed us in front of the world because we wrongly convicted.
We're going to make sure we get you this time.
So it's that they can play it like that.
And it's very compelling, you know, when they use that type of tactic.
Yeah, absolutely. And what's interesting, though, is, and I think part of it was, even when they did acknowledge that, okay, prior to leading up to this Teresa Hallback disappearance and subsequent murder, he, you know, he wasn't exactly a great guy.
They kind of were able to go back and make it seem like everything he did was so petty.
They minimized all of his crimes.
So it was like, well, just because a person—and they're not wrong to suggest that if a person is on a tear of burglaries, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're working themselves up for murder— But they minimized every single one of the crimes.
Like, oh, he was just, like, hungry when he broke in and stole a sandwich and just took $14 from the cash register.
Like, he was just some starving person, when in reality, oh, this is a pretty thick packet.
Yeah. In law enforcement, when you see something like this, and you see a person that has a criminal record this expansive in a small town.
See, when a normal person watches it, they think of the situation they live in.
They probably live in a big town, big city, and they think, oh man, he just had some of these crimes that he committed.
It's not that big of a deal.
Because in a big city, this is not as bad.
There's people that have a stack this big.
Wow. But in a small town.
I mean, the same two or three officers is probably arresting them on every single charge.
They know who he is. Everybody know everybody.
You have to be a very calculated criminal to do this in a small town with people that you know, that know your parents, that know your family.
It's not like you're going to get away with it.
So I think he had to have been pretty brazen to do this.
And the question that I always have is that why would they leave this out?
Right. That's my question, too.
It's like, if it's so little, it's so petty, and it doesn't really matter, why not include it, right?
And you can say it's a timing thing, but when they did include stuff, as I said, they were constantly trying to make it seem like it was because he was hungry or he was involved in the wrong crowd.
And that became the excuse for the first thing that alerted to me that he was
capable of something more when I looked into his history.
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Now, we know that people that torture animals...
This is a different level of a crime.
This is not breaking and entering.
This is not burglarizing.
This is not stealing stuff, which he has extensively done this.
But when you suddenly are interested in harming animals, I think that we all kind of know this is a major red flag, right?
And so we kind of jump into the story of him and his homies being bored one night and wanting to play with the family cat.
So let's just take a look at what Stephen Avery thought was appropriate to do to the family cat.
Again, this is a family pet.
It's not like a random stray cat that you saw on the side of the room.
This is like somebody in this house.
That's their baby. Somebody loved that thing at one point.
And we all know, don't F with cats.
Yeah. One night, Stephen Avery and a few of his buddies decided to throw a cat into a fire.
I had a bunch of friends over who were fooled around with the cat.
Making a murderer actually allows Stephen Avery to explain it himself.
I tossed him over the fire.
And he lit up to you.
The documentary offers a sympathetic explanation.
Court records describe torture.
He described it as he threw the cat over the fire, when in fact the police report states something much more sinister.
It wasn't an accident at all.
Laurie and Steven weren't living at the Avery Salvage Yard at that point.
And everything I can find shows that it was his idea to burn the cat.
And that he decided to start the fire.
And he chased the cat to catch it.
Imagine a grown man, a married man, a father, and one night he's hanging out with his friends.
They're around a fire.
They're having some beers, having a good time.
And he turns to his friends and he says, I have an idea.
Let's burn the family cat.
So he captures the cat, and then he douses that cat in flammable liquid.
And then he told the friend to pick the cat up and throw it in the fire.
Doesn't condone that Steven was a part of it, but he wasn't the one that actually did it.
And then at least according to his supporters, it wasn't him that actually threw the cat into the fire, so you can't
blame him.
you.
you Who's the one that did the cat?
I want the truth.
Who did the cat? You don't have to think that long.
We all have something to do with it.
But who did the throwing in?
I don't remember. Jerry, maybe.
He was a part of it, but he did not do it per se.
Somebody else actually turned themselves in and confessed and said, you know, it was that Yanda person.
Why did you take the blame then?
I always get the blame anyway.
Why? How was that probation?
Stephen's parole officer said that when the cat jumped out of the fire, he poured more gasoline on it because they didn't want it to suffer longer.
When it crawled out, Avery threw it back.
That's mean, man. I was young and stupid.
I was the wrong people.
Oh, he was surrounded by a bad cast of characters.
Oh, it was the friends that influenced him poorly.
Excuse after excuse after excuse.
So you see this, it's really interesting because you have what's known as the guilters and the truthers and the people that constantly look for excuses for Stephen Avery.
This to me, and then maybe it's because I had a cat that I was very close to.
We've all had, you know, family pets.
The concept of pouring a flammable liquid on a beloved animal and joking around with
your friend, throwing, having your friend thrown into the fire, then you dousing more
liquid onto it, indefensible?
I don't know. No, I think you have to be a level of crazy to want to see an animal suffer and die by way of burning it.
That's not just something that, oh, I'm hanging around the wrong crowd.
You know, I hung around the wrong crowds when I was young too, but I never thought about murdering an animal or watching it suffer.
See, there's a difference between maybe, I don't want to say chopping the head off or something, but something that's quicker, maybe a little different.
I cut worms in half when I was a six-year-old.
It's still bad, but when you have the idea to watch the animals suffer and burn to death, you are now entering into a new level of crazy.
And then to see it try to escape and you want to throw it back in the fire, I just think that that's a telltale sign of somebody who's going down the wrong path that could lead to wanting to do more.
And in that same episode, we learn from his brother, Earl, that he similarly tortured a dog.
You know, his dog ran away, which I think, whatever, got loose and ran away.
And what he thought was a fit punishment for the dog getting away was to tie it to a chain to a pickup truck and drag it away.
Down a street.
Again, not normal.
This is not the way somebody's normal thinking pattern thinks.
If my dog got away, usually you'd be relieved that you got the dog back.
You don't put it through punishment by dragging it down a gravel road and a pickup truck.
So he's starting now to show you that he's not just someone that's willing to break the law, but he's somebody that is willing to get violent.
Which then brings us to the case of his cousin, Sandra Morris.
Absolutely wild story.
And honestly, just good police work, by the way, I want to say first and foremost.
So I guess we'll just watch her say what happened on the morning when he was upset with her.
And then remarkably talk about the excuses that people came up with to justify this happening to a young woman, especially while she was with her young toddler child in the car.
Again, this is what he did to...
Upset over rumors.
Over rumors. That's where this is a rumor.
Everyone's got family beef.
I've always got family beef going on in the background.
I don't know that it could escalate.
I would hope it could not escalate to what Stephen Avery did to his cousin.
Unless you're crazy. And I think maybe Stephen Avery might be.
Here is Sandra Morris in her own words being deposed about what happened.
And by the way, this is eventually what would lead to him getting a six-year prison sentence.
Okay. I think the stuff with his cousin and running her off the road, that was kind of surprising when I found out about that.
That seemed like not something you just do.
I love this woman. She was running with rumors that were out there running naked and me and the wife were having sex in the middle of the road and everything.
So I figured I'd just scare her and she goes to the internet.
Give a heart attack? I mean, you're a young dad, you got a wife, you got little kids, and your name is basically being dragged through the mud.
You have this nasty rumor going on in a rural area to a guy with 70 IQ who is, you know, prideful now.
He's not that, you know, punk anymore.
So he wanted to defend his, basically, honor.
He did have anger issues, he did act on impulse, and he didn't really think through clearly what the consequences would be of his actions.
I just feel like in a lot of ways Sandra Morris was the catalyst that started a lot of this.
Without Sandra Morris, we're not all talking right now.
You don't see that in making a murder.
Her daughter was in the car.
They left that out completely.
I says, just let me get her to my mother's house or wherever.
And I says, I'll go with you and do whatever you want.
I said, just please let me get her safe.
So then he finally nodded his head yes.
And I got into my car and I started driving away and he followed behind me.
He followed her to the stop sign and she turned right and she didn't know if he was going to wait, she didn't know if he was going to follow her, she didn't know.
And I kept looking in my rear view mirror and he was stopped there and he didn't follow me.
And he turned around and went back home.
But obviously she went right there and called the police.
And I told my dad what he did and he said just call 911 and call 911 on him.
You know, call the police on him.
So I did. When he ran a woman off the road and had her at rifle point, they pretty much make Stephen out to be the victim and her to be the perpetrator, the cause of it.
She's the victim. She's the one that should have been telling that story as a victim.
So it's interesting because this is a really terrifying circumstance to happen to any woman.
I mean, obviously Stephen Avery did not know her child.
I think it's probably fair to assume he didn't know that her child was in the car and that's the only reason she's alive because, I mean, this was an attempt to abduct her, you know?
Telling her to get out of the vehicle, putting a gun to her head.
And then she's like, no, no, no, no, no.
I will comply.
Please just let me get my daughter somewhere safe.
And then he gets into his vehicle and has a second thought and turns around.
But then he goes back to his house and pretends that he's sleeping.
Yeah. Unfortunately, this police officer was smart enough on this cold day to be like, seems a little suspect, touches the hood of his vehicle, realizes his vehicle is hot and that Stephen Avery was lying.
And yet still, people were trying to justify what he did by saying, well, she was spreading rumors about him in town, about him having sex in public.
Yeah, I mean, in a normal sense, a person would be upset if a person is lying about them, spreading rumors, damaging her reputation.
Obviously, he had a struggle with his reputation initially, but to go and abduct somebody at rifle point, run them off the road, try to kill them, the thing is that the baby wasn't there.
What else would he have done?
He said he wanted to scare her.
Running her off the road isn't enough.
Right. He brought a gun.
Was he going to take her and put her in a car and take her somewhere?
He ordered her into his vehicle.
Right, right. We're good to go.
They got a guy that's a murderer, that's a serial killer, and then they got people that fall in love with him and send him letters and they want to get married.
People get obsessed with these crazy lunatics and they'll believe anything that is said.
It is reasonable to believe that Mr.
Avery was crazy and that he has the propensity to become violent and not think about his actions.
So murdering a human being is not far-fetched from his character.
Killing animals, threatening people with guns, losing his temper, and all the other stuff that he's done, it's not shocking if you have this evidence that he would potentially have killed somebody.
Which is interesting because they're willing to problematize the people that have come forward and said, here's what he's doing, here's what he's done.
But they don't problematize him.
There's always an excuse. He's an innocent guy, he's upset about some rumors.
But with Sandra, they made her out to be an alcoholic.
They actually wrongly accused her of spreading those rumors when in fact it was a neighbor that reported him
For seeing him do this lewd behavior out in public So it seems like there was some merit to that she actually
a neighbor actually called it in and phoned it in and he was
Upset about that and they all shifted this blame to Sandra and they said well
He was just a proud man, and he never did these things and it's obvious
Especially as we get further into the series I don't want to give too much away that he's a bit of a
sexual deviant And it's not just him. It's the entire Avery clan, as you will learn further on in the series, that are up to a lot of different things that are interesting and let you know that, yeah, it wouldn't be so far-fetched to imagine that he might be having sex in public and that a neighbor might be phoning that in.
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I want to get to, before we run out of time, he gets arrested for this Sandra Morris thing.
He gets in prison for this Sandra Morris thing, as he should have, because as you said, what if he had killed her?
This is not normal behavior. He gets six years.
And while he is in prison, the letters that he was writing to his children are just positively astonishing.
Oh. I don't know if I should laugh at this.
It's so bizarre that it's comical, and thank God he didn't actually follow through with it, but I cannot believe that the prison system allowed him to even send these letters.
Yeah, I don't know how it works, but do they not read the letters that you send out?
You're like, well, you're in prison for murder, and you're writing letters about murdering people.
Yeah, well, this time he was in prison for the Sandra Morris, yeah, running her off the road.
But still, you're in prison for a violent crime, and you're talking about committing another violent crime.
Well, yeah, yeah. Running off the road at gunpoint, which is a serious felony.
And then, you know, you've been accused of raping somebody, brutally raping them.
That's why you're sentenced to a very long sentence.
And you are now saying, when I get out, I'm going to go harder.
I'm going to start killing people.
Yeah. And how they didn't recognize that as a problem is beyond me.
Yeah, this is a letter that he wrote to his wife while he was in prison, and she did wind up leaving him.
He wrote, I will kill you, ha ha.
You can fool around and sleep with blank, and I ain't say nothing.
He was 15 years old.
Write yes, I got it in a letter, and I had the letters.
I mean, he threatened her, and then he starts writing letters to his children where he's essentially saying, like, Happy Easter.
When I get out, I'm going to kill your mommy.
Yeah. And I laughed because it's so absurd that you would write this to a child and then say, oh, well, they're so young that they can't read.
He's always got an excuse for why he's, like, threatening to harm someone, threatening to kill someone, and then he says, well, the kid's just young, they can't read.
I really wrote that because I wanted my wife to see it.
As if that's even better, as if that's better that you were going to send this letter to your wife.
You detour through the kids, just in case they learn how to read.
Maybe they keep the letters, and they learn how to read and then read the letters about you murdering their mother.
I just wish that, to be honest, I wish that this was all revealed.
Because, like I say, in police work, you want to have all the evidence presented so you can make a proper decision of whether the guy's guilty or not.
If you're leaving out incredible amounts of information in a documentary.
You're talking about the case. Some of this is not admissible in court, right?
Some of his past deviant behaviors are probably not admissible in court.
But if you're going to form a documentary where you're selling the story of a man's character, you have to tell his full character.
Therefore, people can put this in perspective.
But it's clear that The motive to make it popular is more so of the objective than to give you truth.
Right. Because if they can lead you off a cliff and keep you hanging there, that will sell more than you painting a picture of who he really is.
Right. And then everybody's like, oh, we already know what happened to this thing.
So I get why they wanted to do it, but I wish that they would have put more information in it.
Yeah, and just to give people that information, in case you haven't seen it, I don't know what you're waiting for.
You should be watching Convicting and Murderer, but here are just some other things that Stephen Avery did while he was in prison, and he was writing letters to his wife.
His wife's name was Lori.
She was left behind with five kids.
Well, he requested that she reenact nude pics from magazines, and the kids, his five young minor children, would take the pictures of Lori, and then she would send them to Stephen Avery.
Wow. Per Earl Avery, that's Stephen Avery's brother who we spoke to throughout this documentary, told his brother Earl to take care of Lori in all ways.
And Stephen Avery would listen in on the phone while his brother was having sex with his wife.
And so when I say that this is a family that was filled with sexual deviance, you will see more and more.
And that's nothing compared to the things that they were involved in.
Per Candy Avery, that is Earl's ex-wife, the Avery family decides to make Earl's wife Candy into Stephen Avery's girlfriend while he's in prison.
So there's this wife swap that's going on.
They share each other. We get more into episode three and realizing that there were some very serious claims of incest within the family as well.
While Stephen Avery is in prison, his wife, Lori, moves to divorce him.
And then he starts sending those Easter cards that we were just talking about to his young children, stating that he planned to kill Lori when he got out.
blatantly say so people that say he doesn't have a propensity for violence you are ignoring his own words while he is in
prison for another violent crime saying that when I get out I'm
going to commit the ultimate violent crime and murder you and
He then to be spiteful requested an investigation Into Laurie his ex-wife or soon-to-be ex-wife for welfare
fraud But ended up backfiring because the kids were able to speak
to those social workers and talk about why they didn't want to visit their
Father anymore they reported that he was abusing them during the visit so he would poke them that he would pinch
them and there was Of course the allegation that Stephen Avery had beat the
living crap out of Laurie's biological son Jason Which would have been his stepson and at one point that he
punched his stepson's front teeth out So a judge ultimately moved to terminate the visitation of the children altogether.
And one of the reasons was, of course, because Stephen Avery had written those letters and sent photographs to the kids describing how he had planned to sexually mutilate their mother when he was released.
But Brandon, this guy does not have the propensity to commit this crime for these documentary makers.
He's a documentary maker.
He's an old country boy that just got, who was at the wrong place at the wrong time in
the wrong city.
I just, that's the picture that they painted, and that's the picture that most people fall
for.
I mean, he looks innocent.
When he talks, he talks slow.
He seems like a nice guy.
But my God, when you do stuff like this with all the crimes he's committed, him telling
his kids that he's going to mutilate their mother.
To even fix your hands to write a letter like that, you must be out of your mind after being in jail for that long in the first place.
It's very clear that this dude has the propensity for extreme violence and that he's a ticking time bomb.
It's just a matter of time before he gets pushed to the right level that he could possibly murder people.
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Okay, so you haven't seen the full Convincing a Murderer series yet, so you're kind of hanging on.
What are some of the things that you are still question marks in your head?
Because a lot of people are like, okay, well, I might believe that Stephen Avery's bad, but more about Brendan Dassey.
What about the $36 million motive?
What are some of the things that you're left behind going, okay, even if Netflix did this wrong, I have to assume that this was truthful?
Yeah. Well, I have to say that your documentary has shined light on a lot of things that I didn't think about, I didn't know, and some of the truth that they left out.
So then it brings other questions in my mind.
But some of the things that I still feel like I cannot wait for it to be revealed to me is the $36 million payout.
In the conflict of interest that I see from the limited information that I have of the police officers that are working for an agency that wrongly convicted him of raping somebody, and now they're a part of this new investigation while simultaneously still being sued by Mr.
Avery. So that conflict of interest is something where I'm like, how is that even possible that the agency can investigate him now in this situation when they got it wrong and he was doing 12 years or 18 years total for a crime that he possibly didn't commit?
So those are the things that are crazy to me.
And then the Dassey, Brandon Dassey, what's his name?
Yeah, the nephew. The nephew, he seems like he's don't got all his sense.
You know what I mean? He seems like he could have been coerced.
I watched a little bit of the interview from the original documentary, and it appears that they were asking him, in some cases, leading questions.
You know, you have a person that's not all cognitively there, and then you're telling him, like, one of the clips that I saw that, you know, obviously was shown in a documentary that you have, is him saying, who shot her in the head?
Mm-hmm. To me, that's something that you cannot put forth When you're interviewing somebody or investigating somebody, you want to have them tell the full story because if they don't indicate that the person was shot in the head and they say they were stabbed to death or choked to death, then you will have, you know, enough knowledge to say this person has no idea what happened.
Or if they do indicate that the person was shot, only person would know is the person who shot him in the police.
So some of those leading questions that was presented in the original documentary, I still am like, Where's the evidence that that's not true or that that was faulty?
I can't wait. I can't wait because it really does show you how compelling.
You are convinced. How compelling the presentation can be.
We were talking backstage.
You are convinced. I'm like, what information does she have that she's uncovered that can overcome this?
Those, you know, those points of interest that I have.
It's like, what do you, I can't wait to figure out what do you have that's going to overturn that?
And I can't wait to see a reaction to it because obviously you're from a police officer.
And so once you really understand the lengths that people went through to make these cops look dirty, you know, you're going to be like, wow.
I'm going to fall out. They better put a pillow back here.
I'm going to fall out this chair. You're going to be like, wow.
And then, of course, you actually almost gave away when you said, when I watched the clips of Brendan Dassey, right?
And so that's the thing. You can always get a clip to tell a story.
And then when you see hours and hours and hours, you go, oh, wait a second.
Oh, wait a second. Oh, wait a second.
Now I see why they chose to show me this 10-second clip.
So I don't want to give any spoilers, but I did want to hear you say that because I think that that really reflects the sentiment of a lot of people.
People that follow me, that are fans of me, they're like, Candace, I just can't rock with you on the Brendan Dassey thing.
That's got to be something different.
Maybe the Stephen Avery thing.
And they're like, and what about the $36 million you had this pending lawsuit?
Yeah. And it's going to have to be just really them getting educated about what the lawsuit was, when he settled the lawsuit, and things of that nature that I think are going to definitely help them see this case in a new light and hopefully bring some justice to these police officers who are just good guys that were just doing regular old police work and got swept into a Netflix narrative.
Right, and I think people should always have an open mind, you know, no matter what it is.
If you weren't there, you didn't interview people, you weren't in the trial physically there, you wasn't on a jury, then I think people should have an open mind and say, okay, as I go through convicting a murderer...
As I go through this, I have to be open-minded, even though I may not disagree, I may not have all the information.
You still need to be open-minded because I learned this in policing and I'll never let it go.
There's always two sides to the story.
It's always, I have had times where I had the guy, the woman call police.
She had knots on her head and I was infuriated.
I said, I'm going to find this guy.
I'm going to bring justice to this woman.
And then I found him.
I found out that she was the one that beat him up and she ended up going to jail.
So you got to always keep an open mind.
And I'm excited to see what evidence is there.
And it's, I'm just waiting to be mind blown.
It is. It is. It is absolutely mind-blowing, you guys.
Unfortunately, we can't give you more information today.
But what I can say is if you haven't watched it, we live premiered first episode on X. You can go to Daily Wire Plus.
The second episode is free.
Next Friday, we'll be covering episodes three and four.
And to watch those and the rest of the series, you will need to be a Daily Wire Plus member.
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