Charlie Kirk leads a debate on immigration, arguing undocumented workers fill 50% of Texas farm jobs and pay billions in taxes while committing fewer crimes than citizens. He contends mass deportation would separate 4.4 million citizen children and cost hundreds of billions, yet admits wage depression for American plumbers due to competition from Nicaraguan laborers. Kirk asserts America was built by settlers, not immigrants, and rejects the U.S. obligation to accept refugees, claiming nations like El Salvador prove countries can stabilize without American intervention. Ultimately, he concludes that poverty is a choice, urging nations to take responsibility rather than blaming the United States. [Automatically generated summary]
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I have a couple points that I want to talk about in illegal immigration.
Is it okay if I write if I say all of them with no interruption?
Okay, cool.
So, first, illegal immigrants power our economy.
They're 50% of U.S. farm workers harvesting the food on our tables and fill 70% of construction jobs in states like Texas.
They pay $13 billion annually in taxes, including $2 billion to Social Security that they can't claim.
Deporting them would slash agriculture output by $60 billion and raise food prices by 6%.
Why gut our farms and wallets when these workers fuel our prosperity?
That's my first point.
Second point, they strengthen our communities with lower crime rates.
So in Texas, undocumented immigrants have a 26 lower percent homicide conviction rates, which is 2.2 per 100,000 versus 3 for native-born citizens.
Nationally, immigrants are incarcerated at half the rate of native-born, where it's 0.85% versus 1.71%.
That's according to Bureau of Justice statistics from 2019.
So if safety is your goal, why deport people who make our streets safer?
This is my third point.
Mass deportation tears apart American families.
Over 4.4 million U.S. citizens children have an undocumented parent, and in Texas, one in seven kids lives in a mixed status household.
Okay, this is my fourth point.
Deportation is a fiscal nightmare.
Removing 11 million people would cost 315 to 400 billion, more than the entire Homeland Security budget, and shrink our GDP by 1.7 trillion over 10 years.
And this is my last point.
Our immigration system is broken, pushing people to cross illegally.
Visa waits Mexicans can exceed 20 years and the asylum blockage is 1.3 million cases with hearings four to six years out.
Okay.
You done?
That's pretty much it.
Yeah, yeah.
All right, so without looking at the phone, look at me.
What should the penalty be for breaking into America?
I think there should be a system where it's more merit-based.
So if this person...
No penalty.
So what is the penalty?
So what should happen?
Yeah, what should happen?
It's not a felony.
It's a misfortune.
No, it is.
That's not true.
It's 8 USC 1312.
You need to look it up right now.
It's a felony if it's done twice.
If you try to be correct, that is correct.
That is not correct.
I googled it, dude.
To illegally go across the southern border with the well intent to come into harbor yourself into the interior of the United States, the violation of 8 USC 1312, which is a felony in the federal criminal code.
Now, it can be enforced as a misdemeanor or it can be upwards to five years in prison.
Now, I want to know, since it's a felony, law in the books, 8 USC 1312, what should the penalty be?
Well, in my opinion, these kinds of laws are usually, they're, what do you call it?
They're, sorry.
Usually the...
Sorry.
Wait, sorry.
Can I choke my phone real quick?
I apologize.
Can you repeat the question?
Sorry.
What should the penalty be for someone that breaks or comes into America illegally?
what should the penalty be?
I think there should be a merit system where the people...
Okay, the penalty...
All right, let's...
That's not the answer.
It's a very simple moral and legal question.
What should the penalty be if you come into America illegally?
Okay, so since it's a misdemeanor, not a felony.
Misdemeanor is not a fair thing.
I just told you it's not.
You can look up on your chat GPT.
What is 8 USC?
Look up.
What is 8 USC 1312?
No, I know.
I've already looked it up.
Yes, which is 8.
When it's your second time crossing the border illegally, then it becomes a felony.
It can be, and it is, enforced as a felony, and usually is done as a misdemeanor citation because no one has the stones to do 20 million felony applications.
So I just want to ask, what should the penalty be then for someone that comes into this country illegally?
Usually there's three ways that go about this when there's a penalty.
There's either like a fine or there's some kind of like public service that this person does, or you send them back.
Send them back, I agree.
That's the only shit.
Okay, okay.
So, okay.
So this is interesting.
So one of the stats, one of the statistics that I read said that illegal immigrants don't cause as much like they don't break the law as often as people who are native born.
Hold on.
That is statistic.
But they're all time out there.
But every single one of them are criminals.
They're all criminals.
Okay, sure.
By law.
By law.
No, by law, of course.
Of course they are.
If they commit less crime and they're all criminals, by definition, they all have broken the law by being here.
And they break the law every day by staying here.
Because you're actually not allowed to stay here either.
Do you know that?
So every day you're here, you're actually continually breaking the law.
You can't break in or harbor.
That's what the federal law says.
So by breaking in, it's not just the only law they broke.
Every second you remain here, you're also breaking the law.
So that statistic is invalidated by just them breathing here, they're breaking the law.
No, of course not.
Of course not.
So of course it makes sense for them when they're here, they're breaking a law because they're illegal immigrants, obviously.
Obviously.
But once they're okay, yeah, of course.
So once they're here, once they are here, what kind of harm are they actually doing?
When you look at the numbers, it's just a lot.
No, no, that's not true.
Okay.
Black.
Black wages have gone down.
DUIs have gone up dramatically.
I'm trying not to interrupt, bro.
Okay, hold on.
I'm interjecting.
And I let you go uninterrupted with your whole soliloquy, right?
So let me ask you a question now.
Okay.
So if it is correct that illegal aliens commit less crimes, which of course it's not correct.
That is correct.
Look it up.
In Texas, they made a study in 2018.
26% are legal.
Is any crime?
It's just not correct.
But I'm not going to debate that.
I just proved it at its face because they commit a crime by being here every day.
That is a crime.
Okay, once they are here, what kind of crimes are they committing?
Which is, they're 26%.
26%.
Do you know the name Lake and Riley?
No, educate me.
Oh, you don't?
No, no, no.
Do you know, wow.
Do you know the name Rachel Morin?
No, I don't.
Wow.
Educate.
So Lake and Riley was a girl at the University of Georgia.
There was a peeping Tommy, illegal alien, that was deported five times prior, and Biden kept on letting him back in.
He hunted her down, her, sodomized her, and murdered her on a hiking trail at the University of Georgia.
Okay, that person doesn't represent all of the people.
Every person who is killed by an illegal alien is one that should not happen.
Every single one.
Of course, and also the ones that are in the world.
And everyone.
And so that's the point.
Is that it's not a matter of the rate.
Even if I accept your premise, which is incorrect, the rate is irrelevant.
The number is what's relevant.
There should be zero illegal aliens.
There should be zero Americans being killed by illegals.
Not to mention there's six other problems with illegal aliens.
They steal social security numbers.
They depress wages.
They are heavily involved.
By the way, not to mention, a lot of people that cross on the southern border are also smuggling girls, weapons, and drugs alongside the southern border when they come.
It's the largest slavery operation in American history that many illegal aliens help make possible on the southern border.
And I guess the final question I'll have is: should a government serve its citizens first and foremost?
Yeah, of course.
Of course.
Well, okay, there's been many people who are like very political leaders who have said that this place is built off of immigrants.
Oh, is it?
Wait, hold on.
Let's think about that.
Sure.
First of all, it's legal, not illegal.
But was America founded by immigrants or settlers?
Settlers.
That's not an immigrant.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
You brought up the nation built by immigrants.
Yeah, we're actually wrong.
Because the political leaders have said that this place is built.
They're wrong?
Political leaders are wrong.
George W. Bush is wrong.
All these political leaders who have built this.
By the way, the first person to say that was.
How is that wrong?
When illegal immigrants make it again, allow me to build it out for you.
Sure.
Immigrants have helped at times in American history, but we are first and foremost a nation founded by settlers.
Immigrants come to a country already built.
Settlers come to a barren place and build something new.
This land was barren when people came.
In the 1840s gold rush, this was not an easy place to live.
California was not exactly industrialized.
There was not immigrants coming west to California.
Those were settlers building a new place around Western values.
Finally, I would just ask the question: do you see a moral distinction between a legal immigrant and an illegal immigrant?
Well, the argument is that they're cutting in line.
Like, the argument is that they're cutting in line in the 20-year process that it would take for someone to be to create a new city.
It's not 20.
At most, it's 20.
At most, it's 20.
Right now, there's around like 1.2 million people who are currently waiting.
That would take six to seven years for a hearing.
And by the way, no one has a right to come to this country, just to be clear.
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Let me stay on track of what I was going to say.
Okay, so people who come here usually almost all the time when they come here, they benefit society.
They benefit society.
There's studies that have done this.
Not necessarily.
Okay, not necessarily, but overall in general.
But not only is it a lot of people who are in the world.
I fundamentally disagree with that.
You can't disagree with a fact.
Hold on.
Do you think Elon Omar has enriched the United States of America?
I don't know.
Do you think Rashida Tlaib?
I mean, I could go through person by person by person.
Sorry, I don't know these people.
Are these people who have like are illegal immigrants that have caused harm?
Again, if you don't know, I don't need to pick on you.
It's fine.
But I guess the final question is: do you have any concern that there are too many people coming into this country and we're a nation of strangers, not a nation of neighbors?
If the people who are coming are creating America, making it more growing, like the economy is growing, then what harm is that doing?
Especially if the people are not.
Because we're recording that an economy, though, aren't we?
We're a culture.
We're a language.
Yeah, of course.
Okay, so let's talk about that front.
When they come here, they don't have any kind of, they're not committing more crimes than the people who are already here.
That is a situation.
We've already dispelled that.
But you can't say that.
In California, let's think California.
Do you think there's anything wrong that a majority of young people in California speak Spanish, not English?
Wait, sorry, can you see the question?
Do you think there's anything wrong or troubling to the fact that a majority of people under the age of 30 here in this state speak Spanish, not English?
Is there a problem with that?
Well, yeah, everyone should be able to have an ability to communicate with the rest of the crowd.
So I don't know what the big issue of that is.
See, I think it's a huge problem when we have a nation where you can't communicate with the other people.
Okay, simple solution.
Teach them how to speak English.
What is your problem?
Yeah, and our schools don't do that, actually.
And also, have a better solution.
Don't import a bunch of people that don't speak English.
You mean importing people who actually grow the economy.
I reject your premise.
That's not a premise.
That's a study that's been done.
Do you know what a premise is?
I don't actually care as much about economic growth because we're one nation under GDP.
We're not one nation under GDP.
We're a nation under God.
And when we lose social cohesion and you import a bunch of people that don't share our values, that don't necessarily always assimilate, that's a major and serious problem.
And we are a people first and foremost with a creed, and that creed is falling apart.
Mass migration has not helped that creed.
Yes, they might buy more trinkets.
They might help depress wages.
Mass migration, of course, can help.
All the good things, all great things for America.
They help major corporations, but you know what they also do?
They keep down the wages of working people.
If you are a plumber, yes, of course.
If you think about it, you're a plumber, electrician, or a welder, and you have to compete against someone from Nicaragua who's willing to do it for five bucks less an hour, that depresses the wages of the American citizen.
Right.
Yeah, so there's been studies that have done that also counteract that.
Illegal immigrants.
Well, let's use our reason.
No, let's use our reason.
Let's use our reason.
How about our reason?
So we've had mass migration for 20 years.
Have wages gone up?
I don't know.
No, they haven't, actually.
So forget your studies.
For 10 years, we've had.
For 10 years, we've had 30 million people come into America.
Wages have gone down dramatically.
Maybe there's a reason why.
Okay.
Family Separation Logic00:04:36
Okay.
So what I encourage you to do, just because there's a study that confirms, you should use your reason and look actually at self-evident truths.
Be like, huh, does that make sense?
Can you name anything?
Statistics are self-evident.
Well, not always.
Statistics are very misleading.
Yes.
Like, for example, I could say, did you know that 600 people a year die because of seatbelts?
Well, that's a misleading statistic because over 100,000 lives are saved by seatbelts.
That's an incomplete statistic.
Okay, so that's a gray area.
So where's the gray area where people are talking about where 26% of illegal immigrants who come here commit less crimes than native-born immigrants?
How many times have I been over this?
That's just not correct.
That is correct.
That is correct.
Every single crime, it doesn't matter.
This is a study that was done in Texas, the most diverse most diverse state.
Every crime in illegal commits is one that should never have happened.
It is a period.
They should not be here.
So I don't care about the rate.
The rate is irrelevant.
So let me just ask one final question.
It is relevant.
Someone broke into the country and cut in line.
What should happen to them?
Well, they're given.
Ideally, there's a system.
Ideally, there's a system that's merit-based where these people then become part of the citizen.
Like, they become a legal citizen.
Yeah, I mean, we have clarity, but not agreement.
I say deport them all back to their country of origin and put Americans first.
That's not an appropriate solution when the American people voted for it, and it is appropriate.
It isn't appropriate because most of the people that do come here illegally contribute positively to society.
Not again, statistically, everything backs this.
You're not listening to anything I'm saying, and that's fine.
They take jobs from Americans, they depress wages, they steal social security numbers, they commit a crime every single day that they're here, they flood our public schools, they flood our social services, they flood our hospitals, they are a burden on the taxpayer, they should go back and make their own country great again and apply and become a legal immigrant if they want to live here.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Next question.
Basically, my question is: there are circumstances in the U.S. where little kids come in illegally because of their parents, but they come here and they this is this is their whole life.
They have no history in their home country, right?
How do we humanely, and as conservatives or Christians, like deal with this in a way that represents our values?
You're not going to like my answer, and that's okay.
The whole family unit should be returned back to the country.
Okay, that's what I was tending to think.
And can I just build it out?
Yes.
So, a moral teaching of scripture is that you do not favor justice for the poor or for the rich.
This idea of blind justice.
And if we agree it is wrong to do this, and we say, Okay, what's the most humane way?
It'd be one thing if we say, Hey, you separate the family, which ironically, people on the left actually want the family separated.
They say, Oh, keep the kids and bring the parents back home.
I think that's wrong.
I think the whole family unit should return.
And here's why: is that these parents, when they brought some of these kids across the border, they knowingly put their kids in harm's way.
That's true.
And again, it is not fair to the kids of other nations that are not able to legally immigrate into this country just because others were carried across the southern border.
Do you think it would then be reasonable to give maybe these families, unfortunately, due to their parents' decisions, maybe more priority about getting an actual visa or no?
No visas.
I know I'm pretty harsh on this, and I'll tell you why.
If we compromise on immigration law, then we do not have immigration law.
We must be uncompromising in the enforcement of law, period.
And again, if we want to accommodate certain things, then we're basically going to say, Hey, this law should not exist, and anybody can come in under any circumstances.
But again, the parents are the ones to blame here, not the U.S. government.
The parents brought their kids, and I'm going to say something a little bit provocative, almost as like mini hostages against the system, where they're like, Well, you can't deport me because I brought these kids as a safety mechanism.
And by the way, just so we're clear, some of these kids are brought across in sex trafficking ways.
Some of them are brought in very cruel and unusual ways.
And so, again, people don't always love that answer, but yeah.
I guess my next question to that would be: I'm trying to think.
I just like because they have no, maybe they don't even, you know, their first language is English, they may not even speak their native language.
Um, and you said that it was because that's the law right now that we don't allow immigration inside.
Ranchers and Economic Rules00:10:19
But in the past presidency, maybe when they came in, that wasn't the case.
So, no, that's right.
And I don't agree with that, that that was the way it was during that time.
But then, shouldn't we maybe allow those people to stay because that was acceptable in that moment?
If you're 25 years or younger, it's been the law for about 25 years, right?
It's about like 2000, 8 USD 1312.
I guess saying, just like in the last presidency, it was just so like chillax, I guess.
Yeah, I mean, so look, like, let's let's just talk about something that's going to be a huge task because what you're talking about is still a hypothetical in some ways.
Because you're talking about people that might have been here for 10 or 15 years.
The more important and one that's going to be a huge lift is getting all 14 million people that came across in the last four years.
They do know another nation.
They do know another home.
We're not even getting the people that are 18, 20, 25.
We're talking about trying to get 14 million people that were bum rushed across the border in the span of four years.
Every single one of those people should be returned back to their country of origin and deported from the United States.
I agree with that as well.
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Hi, Charlie.
Great to meet you.
Thank you for letting me speak in your platform.
First of all, I really disagree with you in a lot of things.
Be respectful, guys.
It's fine.
Part of what makes America a great country.
It does.
It does.
America's a great country, but I don't like your t-shirt.
I'm going to get started by saying I'm an immigrant.
And, well, I don't understand why you would want to deport all some of my friends and family who have been working hard in this country and that like they're being persecuted right now.
So I just, I don't get the whole process of it.
And it feels like I'm being discriminated against even though I'm here through legal means.
But just, can you please give me an answer for that?
And before that, if like, let's say, if I would come up here and say, like, I'm an illegal immigrant and I'm here trying to debate you, would you call ICE?
Yes.
I mean, Tom Holman would probably see the video and you'd probably go back to your true country.
Okay.
I mean, that's how it works, right?
But let me just ask you a question.
What is the fair way a country in your ideal?
You're king.
What's your name?
Sorry.
I'm Claudio, sir.
Yeah, Claudio.
And this is just a thought exercise, but it's very revealing.
You are king.
And you find out that there are 30 million uninvited people in your country.
What do you do with them?
Oh, in this case, I try to find the most humane way of sending them back to our country.
But first of all, I want to say this.
That's what we're doing.
Wait, let me just say something.
That's what we're doing.
Let me just say.
King Claudio.
Long live the king.
I'm not a dictator at all, but of course I'm.
It's a helpful thought, actually.
I get it.
I get it.
And all I'm saying is you were talking about like in the past couple of people that came up here, like America first, trying to get like the best for our country and like increasing the productivity and getting us to be like the best country possible, which I agree.
Like I love this country.
But a lot of this country is built on like illegal immigrant labor.
And it's definitely like a bad means, but it's been a good result somehow.
Like I'm sure you know people like you have friends from like home that own businesses that employ these types of people that are very productive and very honest and just hardworking trying to get a better life.
And a lot of those people are very close to me, so it's just a very heartbreaking situation for me, but I understand.
Okay, yeah, but I mean, and you gave the answer if you were in charge.
I guess this is another important question.
What should the punishment be then if you break into somebody else's country uninvited and stay there without welcome?
Well, I really, I don't know what the punishment should be.
I'm not a lawyer.
No, no, that's okay.
I'm just asking, it's totally.
Yeah.
Here's our position.
is that it is against federal law to come into America, right?
You're not allowed to come into the country without, you know, without invite.
So that's against the law.
So if we can do one of two things, and there really isn't, there's very little in the middle.
There's some nuance, but we can say we are not going to enforce the law because we're just going to say that doesn't matter.
Or we could say, look, the law is blind, and when you break the law, it must apply to all people.
Now, I think you're a little different because I don't want you to loop in.
So what country did you emigrate from?
Are you going to discriminate against me?
No, I'm actually not.
I'm going to do the opposite, actually.
Yeah.
I'm curious.
I'm Mexican.
Okay, fine.
But you came here legally, correct?
I did, sir.
Okay, great.
Well, if I didn't, you'd be calling the police, wouldn't you?
No, but it's not a racial thing.
If you were Polish and you overstayed a visa, then you should be – but hold on.
You followed the rules.
So you're exempt.
The people that you know didn't follow the rules.
True.
So I divide America not into Mexican and white and Hispanic and white, into rule follower and rule breaker.
And so when someone breaks our rules, there must be justice done.
There must be a punishment.
And the most humane way is you go back to your country of origin.
We'll do it humanely.
We'll do it correctly.
But if you are not invited into a home, into a dorm room, into a living room, the standard applies to an entire country.
Now, to your point, you might be right.
There might be some economic disruption.
However, you know what happens if you have economic disruption in the labor pool?
Wages are going to go up.
And you guys are going to see your wages go up.
Who is going to occupy those jobs?
So this is a little bit insulting.
I don't think you mean it this way.
That illegal immigrants are nothing more than just kind of like.
These are my people, so how could I be insulting them?
I'm even defending.
I don't think you mean it this way.
But broadly, when we talk about immigration, there's a talking about like, well, who's going to pick your grapefruits?
And like, who's going to serve you Chipotle?
You've probably heard this before, right?
I have, yeah.
Who's going to clean your hotel room?
But hold on.
Embedded in that is kind of a really derogatory that's like, they're kind of just like a permanent serf class here to serve us.
I think that's like really creepy and weird, actually.
These are human beings.
They're more than just kind of economic utility.
Yeah, no, but like in the in the history of the of the U.S., like we've heard, we first had like the Italian and Polish immigrants and they first served those jobs and then they became like economically sufficient.
They were welcomed.
True.
But it was a different time in history.
Of course, but I suppose the broader question is one of justice, which is that to what should a country do when your sovereignty has been so massively violated for a long period of time?
And a country seeks to be a country, becomes something else.
It becomes a colony or it becomes just kind of a random area if a country does not have loyalty to its own people.
And if it has loyalty to foreigners or to an oligarchy, it ceases to be a country.
So it's not the most popular argument.
Well, actually, the American people voted for it.
And it sounds cruel, but it's very simple.
It's like, look, this is not against any of you personally, but you have to have the law be the first and last ushering of what a government does in this situation.
And by the way, what I was saying about you, I'm getting back to you.
You deserve to be applauded because you guys followed the rules.
And it's not fair to people like you who followed the rules to all of a sudden have line cutters.
Here's the equivalent.
You guys waited in line like two and a half hours to go get a meal at a restaurant and someone shows up and just cuts in line.
What was the first thing you would say?
That's not fair.
And you would be right.
And the same with immigration, please.
Yeah.
Wait, let me just like add a layer to this and then I'm probably done.
But like, let's say that the people that's cutting like in front of line, like that's like some of my boys like that I know that they're being like persecuted like back home, them and their families.
Like they're like in like drug-related like wars and violence.
And the only way out, like the only way they're not gonna die or like suffer a very bad fate is if they escape and they break the American law.
But that's the only way they're gonna survive.
So like hold on.
Hold on.
Two thoughts on this.
Number one, if that is correct, we have a special asylum status that they could seek legally at a port of entry that they could go through a whole process.
But if they're being persecuted, don't they not deserve it?
It wouldn't be justified to cut the line.
No.
Secondly, well, it might be justified in their mind, but it's not justified in the rural administer's mind to make exception for it.
But let me just, let me make a more important point, though.
If we all of a sudden say that if you have a lot of gang violence and issues, I mean, like, we have a lot of gang violence and issues.
Like, what are we talking about here?
Like, we're a more dangerous country than half of the Central American countries.
We're far more dangerous than El Salvador.
And we could make an example.
If that is the criteria, like, all of South America should be allowed into America.
Basically, I mean, the idea is that at some point you have almost no standard whatsoever.
And instead, here's my perspective.
We should empower those people to go fix their own country.
We should empower them to go make El Salvador great again, which is a great country now.
Nicaragua, Honduras.
Yes, please, final.
So wouldn't like a good way to start is like trying to lower the demand for drugs in America because a lot of the drugs that are like being produced and being fought over in South America are going to be supplied to the U.S. for your American consumers.
Yeah, so how would you recommend lowering demand?
Anti-Immigration Rhetoric00:13:11
I have no idea.
Like, what would you do?
I don't know.
I mean, demand and supply are two different issues, right?
I mean, the first part of demand is that way too many people get into, and I talked to my earlier point, they get into a thought pattern that substances are going to bring me flourishing, which I think is wrong.
But yes, I think, look, the drug cartels are richer than ever before.
And we have more drugs legalized than any time in the last 40 years.
So something doesn't fit.
So obviously drug legalization is not impoverishing them.
The biggest way, though, that we stop these third world countries from being tinpot despotic dictatorships is we have to stop subsidizing their oligarchy through foreign aid.
And then, yes, you're right.
The Chinese Communist Party is pumping tons of money into these countries.
But finally, and I know this sounds a little bit cruel, is that I care far more about the suffering of Americans than the suffering of other people's countries first.
I would too, yeah.
And you have to.
You have to look after your own people.
You have to draw the line.
And it's the old adage, right, guys?
If your plane is going down, what do they tell you to do first?
You put your mask on first and then the mask on the person that might not be able to put a mask on an infant or someone that might be infirmed.
It's the same way as a country.
We need to put our own oxygen mask on first and then we can worry about helping other people.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Can I get a hi, folks?
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I think that the anti-immigration rhetoric you have is not new.
I think that you try to paint a picture of it being this current phenomenon that we're facing, but there's been rhetoric from your side for a long time, throughout the entirety of history.
I mean, if we look at the immigration policies in the U.S., even though Chinese immigrants built the entire Western Railroad, there was still the Chinese Exclusion Act because they were providing insane value to the United States, but we still had these exclusion acts because of xenophobic attitudes.
And so this is not a novel idea that immigrants are bad for the country.
So I'm interested in why you think that all of a sudden we need to change the way the United States works.
Well, first of all, immigration has gone in great influxes.
We basically turned off all immigration in the 1940s and 50s.
We had like net zero immigration for almost 15 years.
Most people don't even know that.
So we had Ellis Island in the early 1900s, and then we turned on the guzzle of immigration.
But let's be honest, for 40 years, we have tried this mass immigration project for the last 40 years.
Has it worked?
Are we a more connected country?
Have middle-class wages kept up?
Look at the material data.
Has immigration enriched the well-being of the United States of America, especially the last five or six years?
I would say, of course not, actually.
We're more divided, we're more factious, and we see this in almost every European country as well.
When you import a bunch of people that don't speak your language, that are from the third world, all of a sudden you have mass destabilization happening in your country.
It's not a matter of being xenophobic.
Instead, it's a matter of being patriotic to your own country and your own citizens.
It's not about hating the foreigner.
It's about loving the citizen.
And your obligation is always to citizens first, not foreigners.
Okay.
So you don't think that the MAGA movement has led to xenophobic attitudes at all?
I don't even know how to answer that.
I mean, like...
Why not?
Well, because you have to first define what you mean by xenophobic attitudes.
I mean, just like you said, you said, I mean, we're living in a divided world.
You don't think that comes from people being anti-immigration?
No, I think it's the opposite.
I think when you allow a bunch of people that aren't native-born Americans too quickly with no checks, no background, no idea who they are, and flood them into your towns, definitionally, diversity is not a strength when it comes to local community ties.
If you don't use it, if you don't use it, I don't know that you're committed to finding its strength.
Hold on, no, explain this to me.
This is a good question.
What country has ever grown stronger the more divided it's been?
None, but I'm not saying that we have to get more divided.
No, no, no, but diversity definitionally will divide you.
Unity unifies you.
You notice they never say unity is our strength.
They say diversity is our strength.
In fact, just so we are clear, there is nothing racist or xenophobic to say that you want your kids to be around people that speak English.
There's nothing racist to say that.
It actually means that you want to be able to communicate with your neighbor.
There's nothing racist and xenophobic to say, for example, we don't want to import people from a far-off distant land that don't share Western values, that don't treat women the same, that don't have the same respect for freedom of speech.
So what we see is the unraveling of the United States of America because a country is, again, just like undoubtedly, it is the people that inhabit it.
So you have to be very careful what people you allow into your country.
Sure, but I think that what you're talking about, this like mass shift in American culture, is like not happening.
I think you're fear-mongering.
And also, I think that the United States forever has been a mix of culture.
I don't really know where you can point to a time in the U.S. history that hasn't included immigrants in its culture.
And from the 20s, to the 1920s and 1960s, we had very little immigration in this country, nearly 40 years.
In fact, that is what largely led to us becoming a world superpower in the 1950s.
We had the Bracero program back then where we brought in tons of laborers from Mexico to the United States to work in agricultural, and that's how we fed the United States.
So I agree with that.
It was very limited in scope versus what we see today.
But again, I will ask a more moral question.
Does a politician have first loyalty to its own citizens or to another country's citizens?
Absolutely.
I'm glad you brought this because I wanted to circle back to my original question about the United States creating instability in the rest of the world.
I do think that every single politician, like let's say I'm the prime minister of South Africa, you know, my, my.
Which is an incredibly anti-white country.
Like, oh my goodness.
Okay.
Anyway.
Dangerously anti-white.
Okay.
Anyway.
Do you know about that, by the way?
You should.
Apartheid, yes.
Oh, no, it's like they're killing white people in the streets in South Africa.
They're stealing farmland.
If you don't know about that, that shows how the media is lying to all of you.
It is literally a mini white genocide happening in South Africa right now.
Yes, but I don't think that we should...
No, it's fine.
You brought up South Africa, not me, but yes.
That was just an example.
Anyway, let's stay on topic.
So let's say I'm the prime minister for a country.
I do agree with you that my first job is that country, for sure.
That's who I'm leading.
But considering the United States has created mass violence, instability, and poverty around the world, you don't think that we have some sort of obligation to the people who then have to flee from that?
No.
Why not?
Wait, hold on.
Well, why not?
Define your terms.
Where have we created mass stability?
I'll grant you Iraq.
That was a disaster.
Where else?
In all of Latin America, in different countries in Africa, places like the Philippines that we colonized, Puerto Rico.
Yeah, I mean, of course, I'm always so interested in this as if it's like, you can never blame those countries for not having their act together.
It's somehow America's fault.
Like, oh, it's America's fault that Nicaragua can't get its act together.
It's America's fault, even though we welcome Puerto Rico to become U.S. citizens.
Like, we've colonized them.
So here's the paradox.
You don't think that Puerto Rico was colonized?
No, no, no, no.
I'm saying no.
So if we don't help Puerto Rico, we're evil.
When they become a territory, we colonize them, and we haven't done enough.
It's like, which one is it exactly?
So the Puerto Rico was taken from the Spanish as a colony and used as a sugar farm for years where the workers were paid less than a dollar per day to create sugar for the United States.
And it's not really about statehood or independence.
It's about letting Puerto Rico decide that for themselves.
And anyway, this isn't about Puerto Rico.
No, it's fine.
And more broadly, and I'll get to the couple final questions here.
I can sense that your problem is that America's super successful and these other countries aren't.
And foundationally, it's rooted in envy, bitterness, and resentment because we are the world's superpower.
It's not because we've held anybody back.
It's because we've had incredible people, really good ideas.
I think the U.S. has intervened in a negative way in other countries.
At times, yes.
times we've intervened very favorably we can you at least acknowledge at times that there has been aid but there's also been terror No, no, not just aid.
South Korea exists because of American involvement.
Kuwait exists because of American involvement.
But it's not, it's not.
But to look at American accountability, you have to look at the whole of that accountability.
And to say that certain countries are less developed purely on their own fault is to ignore his family.
So that's where we disagree.
Countries have to take responsibility for their own future.
Which again, this is one of the reasons why so many people hate Israel.
Every other country around there is like a third world country.
And Israel is super successful and super agenic, and they're able to be like one of the wealthiest countries on the planet.
You're going to wonder, what is it that they're doing?
Oh, it's the Jews because they're stealing all this money.
No, actually, they work super hard and they don't believe in Islam.
And they're like, wow.
And the one place.
Have you ever been to those countries?
Yeah, actually, I have been to Israel and I've been to the Palestinian Authority.
I've been to the West Bank.
I've actually visited it.
Even if I had, that doesn't mean what I'm saying is wrong, just for the record.
By the way, I encourage you to try to go to Lebanon or Syria.
Not exactly the four seasons, right?
So.
And you don't think that U.S. intervention has anything to do with that?
Partially, but again, to blame the evil U.S. intervention for every single problem is at its core intellectually sloppy.
I don't think so, because the United States has two times the military of the rest of the world.
It has been in our DNA to intervene in a military way in other countries.
So to say, I mean, I know you believe in that.
So I want to try to square this all the other.
I got to get another questions.
Just make sure I'm clear.
So you're mad at America for getting involved in other people's countries, right?
So America's bad for that.
But then you want everyone to come to America.
I thought America's bad.
I'm saying that the United States needs to be held accountable.
You can't meddle in.
So we're held accountable by inviting the entire world here.
If you are going to mess up that country, you have to do something about it.
Oh, do something.
Invite them here.
Maybe if you're the reason that they have to leave, no.
Then that at its core, I'm glad you articulated it, is neoconservatism, which is invade the world, invite the world.
Which is that you don't support the invasion part of it, but somehow we have to invite the world as some sort of like mass penance.
So, but that's like you invade and then say, oh, no, I don't support the invasions.
I'm just, I think you are overly ascribing fault to the United States of America when in reality it's these own broken countries that cannot get their own act together.
A great example is this, and I'll close with this.
El Salvador is actually safer than America.
It has billions of dollars flowing in El Salvador.
Why?
Because they elected Bukele, who decided to go after MS-13 and clean up the streets of El Salvador.
Which, again, it was because they decided to do good things with massive action.
Countries can be wealthy.
Singapore is wealthy.
You could be a very wealthy country if you embrace Western market ideas, private property with low crime, and it's not always.
I mean, in the case of El Salvador, the United States was the reason that the country broke down into gang warfare.
And now, if you look at the way they were able to turn around, they had to declare a state of emergency just to be able to turn things around.
It's just like, this is where we're different.
And then I'll close.
Then we have to get going.
I look at America as a force for good.
You look at everything wrong and you say it must be America.
No, sir.
I'm looking at bad things that they have done and calling for accountability.
Okay, again, I...
I mean, maybe we disagree.
I don't know.
I guess I think we're a wonderful country.
And I think if a country is poor, they're poor by choice.
And they have to be able to get their act together, make better decisions, and stop acting like victims all the time.
Thank you very much.
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