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April 20, 2023 - The Charlie Kirk Show
37:47
"Racial Etiquette" and the Fall of Civilization with Heather Mac Donald
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Time Text
Elite Whites and Student Yahoos 00:09:45
Hey everybody, it's Anna Charlie Kirk Show.
Heather McDonald joins us.
Very important conversation on race, beauty, and art.
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Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
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Hey, everybody, welcome back.
Email us your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Joining us now is the great Heather McDonald, who has a new book out when race trumps merits.
I have an advanced copy here.
You guys can actually buy your copy and you should.
And there's so much to discuss.
Heather, welcome back to the program.
Thank you so much for having me, Charlie.
I appreciate it.
So, Heather, the introduction caught my attention.
A cultural revolution.
Boy, does that feel like something of Maoist variety.
What do you mean by a cultural revolution?
Have we lived through a slow-motion revolution, a changing of norms and customs?
We certainly are.
We are tearing down all our norms and customs that support law-abiding, high-achieving efforts, self-control, in favor of a lie, which is that America is systemically racist.
We are jeopardizing scientific progress by saying that the race of scientists in a research lab matter more than their scientific competence.
We are impugning the extraordinary traditions of Western art, whether it's classical music or painting or theater, because the performers in the past or the composers were white because they were European, get over it.
We are also tearing down our public safety.
We are deciding not to enforce the law because doing so inevitably has a disparate impact on black criminals.
And so our prosecutors, our police chiefs, our judges, and our Democratic politicians have all decided that they would rather not enforce the law and allow our streets to descend into anarchy than to enforce the law in a neutral, colorblind fashion and have a disparate impact on blacks.
You close the introduction with an interesting sentence.
You say, we are in uncharted territory.
As Americans, we are.
But do you think there is any historical precedent?
And I don't know if there is, Heather, of a country so wealthy, so prosperous that has its act together deciding to engage in this buffet line of arsenic.
I mean, yes, the difference is Mao's China is they were totally poor.
So we're explain what do you mean by we're in uncharted territory.
Well, Charlie, you more than I, but I have as well, been confronted by these student Yahoos.
And it is really sobering to be in front of the student mob and because you're in front of utter irrationality that is beyond reach of reason.
People that are in a state of neuroses that are in this weird frying jag belief that they are victims.
And when I see that, it does remind me of the Chinese Revolution with students taking over.
But the difference with the Chinese Revolution, as you say, it was a poor country, and it was by and large the lower classes that were turning on the elites.
That's exactly right.
And they tore down the classical education, the classical literature, and they said, oh, that's anti-intellectual, or it's intellectual, and therefore it's against the people.
But what's unusual about the American Revolution, yes, we have the student mobs, but it is the elites that are leading the revolution.
And they're turning on themselves.
They're not just turning on the MAGA hat wearing white supremacists.
And I hope your viewers know that I'm saying that in scare quotes and ironically, Charlie, but they're turning on their own members.
So every time a college president gets up there, whether it's Yale's president Peter Salabi or Princeton's president's Christopher Eisgruber and says, we're systemically racist.
You know, we have to have even more diversity hiring, even more diversity administrating, because we are not living up to the ideals of inclusive excellence, one of the phrases that is just code for lowering standards.
Those presidents are implicitly accusing their own faculty of being racist, which is preposterous.
College, they are not racist.
So there is no precedent for this.
The French Revolution was bloody.
It was a mass outpouring of hysteria, the guillotine, the celebration of taking down aristocrats simply because they're aristocrats.
However, contrasted today, they did not tear down the statutes of the great philosophes, of Voltaire, of Diderot, of Montesquieu, of Rameau, Rousseau.
They didn't.
And to this day, to his credit, Emmanuel Macron, the current president of France, has said, we're not going the direction of the United States.
We're not tearing down our statues.
The rest of the Anglo world is sort of bad.
You know, it's not just America.
Canada's bad.
Australia is bad.
New Zealand's bad.
But the worst really at this point is the United States.
So then your book continues, by the way, the book, everyone should check out a copy, When Race Trumps Merit.
And you continue and you give example after example after example.
And so let's focus on something you mentioned here, which I think is really smart.
Angelo Cotavilla, to his great credit, really, I think, laid this out in political terms better than almost anybody else.
Back in 2010, 2011, he wrote the book, The Ruling Class.
And he talked about how there's a country class and a ruling class, and this is not going to end well.
And so, Heather, can you at least give your best hypothesis or your best explanation as to the psychology that is driving the self-hatred of our elites?
What is their psychological profile?
What is their why?
I get asked this question all the time, and I can't answer it well.
I know.
And we're always asked, do they really believe it?
All the time.
You know, and in a sense, it doesn't matter whether they believe it or not, because what matters is their public pronouncements and the policies that follow on those pronouncements.
But I understand the instinct to want to know what's going on in their head, because we look around the world and we see some obvious truths that there's males and that there's females, that there's criminals and that there's victims, there's innocence and there's guilt, and they don't see that.
And so one does wonder, are these human beings?
You know, what do we have in common?
But I think what drives this, Charlie, overwhelmingly is the issue of race in the United States and the fact that we still have these very large racial disparities when it comes to academic achievement, representation in meritocratic institutions.
That's underrepresenting of blacks.
And then on the other hand, in the prison population, you have the overrepresentation of blacks.
And this country, understandably, has a lot of guilt.
about that.
And there's a lot of discomfort at any explanation for those disparities that is not racism.
The elites are unable to look hard on at the pathologies of the inner city culture that give rise to these disparities.
And bizarrely, they would rather blame themselves for phantom racism.
Is it, and we have two minutes remaining in this segment, is it, do they know that it's going to make them more powerful?
Or is it that also that it just makes them feel good?
Or is it just a mixture of both?
It is kind of this super weapon that is created where they both get to virtue signal, but simultaneously, they actually get to remain an oligarch.
Yeah, I would put my emphasis on the virtue signaling.
I don't know about the logical steps to, well, this keeps me in power outside of maybe electoral power of being, and tragically, sadly, depressingly, you know, the black areas of Chicago just voted for an anti-police guy, Brandon Johnson.
The highest crime rate areas were the ones that voted for him the most.
So the electoral politics of this are very weird.
But I think that what it is as a sort of initial gut matter is simply I'm allowed to feel virtuous.
I believe that I'm looking over a white supremacist land.
And but for me and my racial preferences in my college or my Alzheimer's lab, you know, blacks would continue to be downtrodden.
And I'm going to help lift them up.
Well, the fact of the matter is, is at this point, the only thing that is going to lift up blacks from this inner city culture is self-help.
Why You Need Good Fats 00:02:51
The culture has to change itself.
We cannot make you learn to read.
You know, to learn to read, you've got to do the effort.
But elite whites want to believe that they're responsible for blacks and that they can.
That's exactly right.
That they're pseudo-caretakers.
The book is When Race Trumps Merit, How the Pursuit of Equity Sacrifices Excellence, Destroys Beauty, and Threatens Lives.
I believe this is the most important topic right now.
This is going to bring down the whole civilization.
It's not an exaggeration.
Heather agrees.
She's been trying to warn about this since her book, Diversity Delusion, and her other fabulous works.
And it's only getting worse.
It's accelerating.
It's intensifying.
They are strengthening that they might be growing out of public opinion or public favor with certain people.
But amongst the elites, this is only more institutionalized than ever.
We'll be right back.
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Heather, do you agree with what I was saying?
Do you think this idea pathogen has infected to such a great extent?
Performing White as a Pariah 00:04:26
For example, have they gotten stronger or weaker since you wrote the book Diversity Delusion?
Oh, they've gotten much stronger.
The George Floyd moment was not, George Floyd hysteria did not come out of nowhere, Charlie.
It's growing and it's been growing for decades.
But George Floyd was really a watershed when you had this universal chorus of elite institutions all declaring themselves racist,
all promising these preposterous quotas that investment banks were going to be 50 or 30 percent black by 2025, which is just impossible with any shred of meritocracy when you look at the actual distribution of scores on the business school admissions test or on the GREs or on the SATs.
And you had science magazines, the leading journals of scientific research like JAMA or Lancet publishing front page, full spread issues on the racism of medicine and science.
So it's gotten a lot worse and the pressure has gotten a lot worse to destroy meritocratic standards in favor of diversity.
So the book continues through examples of museum, of the opera, of art.
And so explain to us or make the argument, explain to our audience, why is it that the pursuit of equity is at odds with the, let's say, the noble endeavor of appreciating beauty.
Why are those two things at opposites?
Well, for one thing, equity has nothing to do with beauty.
It is not the comparative advantage of classical music musicians or painters or sculptors or poets or actors to be working on closing racial skills gaps.
They are involved in the debates and feelings of their time and of themselves.
And let's also be very clear that equity in our current context means one thing and one thing only, and that is racial proportionality attained at the expense of standards.
But you now do have, after George Floyd, which was this watershed moment, you had almost every opera company, classical music organization, art museum, dance company, theater company putting out public statements saying, we understand now that we are a complicitous and guilty white organization.
Our audience is too white.
Our authors that we perform are too white.
composers we perform are too white.
Our board members are too white.
And we must make amends.
And we have now decided that our mission is no longer to curate and pass on these traditions of human expression, which are beyond parallel, that give us access to feelings of pathos, yearning, eros, despair, joy. irony and wit that we would otherwise never have access to.
These organizations said, that's no longer our mission.
Our mission is anti-racism.
And you have art museums turning on their own collections.
It is absolutely bizarre, Charlie.
You have the head of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Max Holline, or the head of the Art Institute of Chicago, James Rondeau, declaring that their collection of Baroque 17th century Dutch masterpieces are racist because they were painted in a time of colonialism.
You have the Art Institute of Chicago, one of the great museum collections in the world, dismissing all of its docents who provide volunteer free education to the city's high school students and elementary school students, overwhelmingly black.
The Art Institute got rid of all its docents because they were all white.
Artistic Objectives and Race 00:09:10
And today, it is a per se, if not crime, it is at least a mark of guilt and of being a pariah to be white or to be a white institution.
That's correct.
And you talk about medicine.
That's a whole nother topic.
And when I talk to people I describe as normies, right?
People that don't understand the issue, they say, oh, this woke stuff, it's just on campuses.
I say, no, this is not, this is everywhere, okay?
This is not just a bunch of radicals that are interrupting speeches, okay?
These are doctors.
These are lawyers.
This idea pathogen has metastasized all throughout society in the places that are supposed to be the least ideological.
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So, Heather, I have a theory, and I could be wrong.
I would like your take on it.
When it comes to art and the appreciation of objective beauty, was Marcel Duchamp, the famous episode where he signed the fountain, where it was assigned urinal.
Was that the beginning of the end of Western art?
Does this connect with your general theme?
It's a very, very good candidate for the beginning of the end, Charlie, because what we see is a lot of what we see today, which is it required absolutely no artistic skill to do that.
He didn't have to learn how to draw.
Yes.
And it was a deliberate provocation.
What drives me the craziest when I go to contemporary art shows is that these people do have no artistic talent.
I sort of feel if you've learned to draw and you've mastered that basic hand-eye coordination, which is the basis of all artistic accomplishment in the visual arts, and then you decide that you're going to become an installation artist and you're going to create rooms filled with used tampons and a video playing a woman screaming at a banana for 24-hour loop.
I kind of, I'll semi, if you put a gun to my head, I'll respect that choice.
But the people today that are putting themselves up as artists have no artistic talent whatsoever.
And I don't know about Duchamp, if he actually had mastered the craft of seeing and drawing, but it was simply a provocation.
It had nothing to do with human expression.
It was a way of trying to puncture the long tradition that had brought us at that point the height of visual expression with Jean Singer Sargent's watercolors and his portraits that are just of stunning mastery, breathtaking beauty that we'd involved.
You know, for hundreds of years, you think, my God, we're at Van Dyck now, one of the great Netherlandish painters, portrait painters.
It can't get any better than that.
And then you get to the 19th century.
It gets better than that.
You know, it just, it's one wave of beauty after another.
And then for some reason in the 20th century with the cynicism, we decide we're no longer in the beauty business.
And, you know, one can, there's obviously on the right, even among right critics, there's disputes about Jackson Pollock.
Those like Hilton Kramer of the New Criterion defended a lot of abstract expressionism.
I'm semi of the camp that of, you know, well, my three-year-old could do this, so it's hard for me to see the actual craft and composition in a Jackson Pollock, but it got worse from there.
So explain to our audience that might be new to this topic, and then I really want to get into the race stuff because that is the core of your book.
And I want to talk about those youths in Chicago, right?
Those pesky little kids that are playing hooky.
This idea of objective versus subjective when it comes to art, when it comes to understanding beauty, because I think C.S. Lewis was one of the best at predicting this in the book Abolition of Man, where he said, it is not your opinion that the waterfall is sublime.
You can't just tell a kid that you're like, oh, I don't know if I like it or not.
You have to try to build them up towards a pursuit of an objective order.
We seem to have lost that.
And now it is, you know, not just your own opinion, not your own preference.
It's even worse than that.
It's that ugliness can be deemed as beauty.
It's even worse than preference or anything.
That it's the complete deterioration of any standards or any sort of tradition when it comes to art or when it comes to what we consider to be beautiful.
Can you just build that out objective versus subjective?
Why is that important?
And how is the education system really no longer teaching that?
Well, I'm a mixed opinion on that, Charlie, because I have observed the truth that there are radical changes in what we call the canon.
You know, the canon, whether it's in literature or music or art, are works that there's a consensus around that these are the masterpieces that everybody should be exposed to if they want to have lived a life that is remotely human.
And I can observe as a factual matter that the canon has changed and tastes have changed.
There's a 17th century British poet, dramatist named John Dryden, and for a long time he was viewed as superior to Shakespeare.
He wrote in Anthony and Cleopatra.
It's a very, it's a much more classical literary style.
It's much more controlled than Shakespeare.
Today, he's read, and I read him when I was in England studying because I was doing English literature, but your average American literature class, if they even exist, would really not spend any time with Dryden.
In classical music, for a long time, nobody was performing the symphonies of Gustav Mahler, which are extraordinary works of titanic genius and expression and pain and exaltation.
And then in the 20th century, Mahler was revived, and there was a period where every symphony in the country was doing one Mahler cycle after another until you wanted to scream.
So it is hard to make a case that there is a transcendent, timeless, objective standard of what the great art is because tastes have changed.
Nevertheless, I would say that what is the fatal flaw of our time today is that we have given up on the idea of beauty.
You will never hear a literature department chair or dean or somebody, you know, in a heading of an arts organization talk about beauty.
It is all about race and anti-colonial.
And that teaches students that there's no reason to look into this tradition.
There's no reason to get outside of your pathetic, petty, narrow selves and lose yourself in Renaissance pastoral poetry or the great 19th century Russian or British novel.
I want to now play a couple pieces of tape here, and we have several.
Violence Against Black Kids 00:11:32
Like, for example, this is an academic, mind you, it is from 2005, who is talking about we need to advocate for the extermination of white people, addressing a panel at Howard University.
You're familiar with this tape, Heather, play cut 61.
And we're not thinking about a solution to the problem.
And the one idea is how we are going to exterminate white people, because that, in my estimation, is the only conclusion I have come to.
We have to exterminate white people off of the face of the planet to solve this problem.
Now, I don't care whether you clap or not, but I'm saying to you that we need to solve this problem because they are going to kill us.
Now, that is an author.
I don't know if he's a professor or not, but Heather, one of the things that gets the media very angry is when I say that there is a rather forceful anti-white movement in America.
Is that correct?
It's totally correct.
It is the absolute basis.
Anytime you have the push for diversity, it's all zero sum, Charlie.
And you see these institutions, these museums celebrating themselves, saying we've managed to get our white population down over the last five decades or five years or so.
Yay, we used to be 66% white.
Now we're only 52% white.
We saw this with the distribution of vaccines in the COVID hysteria era, which I hope we're finally over, but probably not.
Which, you know, they got rid of their scientific knowledge that the people most at risk were elderly and did not give priority to the elderly because the elderly are disproportionately white.
You know, that is going on all over the place.
And you can come up with many statements from academia since 2005 of people saying, you know, white people are the problem.
We hate them.
There was a list that was on the web maybe two months ago of all, it was sort of group compiled of all the phrases for whites that blacks have come up with.
The double standards, and I know conservatives harp on double standards.
I don't know if the left harps on our double standards.
I don't think so.
I think they are sort of predominantly operate in the era of the realm of double standards.
It's extraordinary.
These statements that are made that are anti-white, if made about blacks, would create national riots.
Well, and it's not just the statements, as you all know, it's the policies now, right?
So statements and these ideas then lead to actual policies.
And so I just want to give, I mean, I don't think we have the tape, maybe we do or we don't, but I mean, we could tell the story.
In Chicago, you have hundreds of black youth go and target white people, pillage stores, do widespread violence.
The new mayor of Chicago, Brandon Johnson, says, well, you know, you have to understand these kids need space and they don't have a lot of opportunity.
State senator from Illinois comes out and he says that this was just protesting.
I mean, we have unregulated, unchecked, and not even condemned now episodes of widespread looting and violence.
And so, Heather, this is where I lose people, I'll be honest.
And it goes back to the earlier question.
And it is a good question, which is what elite wants to live in that country, right?
I mean, how does that make J.B. Pritzker happy?
You know, the enormously overweight person, you know, multi-billionaire trust fund guy who's the governor of Illinois.
He's a radical revolutionary.
Does he look at that and he's saying, you know what?
We're one step closer.
I mean, not only is it ugly, it is depraved.
It is ill.
Help me understand that.
Maybe there's nothing to understand, but believe me, Charlie, I'm as mystified as you are.
What is it going to take?
If the only people who care about black crime are white conservatives, but if we talk about crime, we're accused of being racist.
And these whites would rather put up with their neighborhoods having these flash mobs.
We'll be very honest here.
It's black teenagers.
That's exactly right.
Yes.
Black teenagers.
You know, you see that the videos are incredible of the police escorting away these white people through the mob.
Again, if this was whites rampaging in South Chicago, the entire world would have ejected us from the United Nations.
We would be the pariahs on earth.
But it is viewed as normal and acceptable for blacks to beat up on whites.
You know, we've now got with the Tamzas City shooting some new wow black hashtags, you know, knocking on the door while black or existing while black, as the mayor said.
No, here's the reality: it's wow white, Charlie.
It's driving while white and not being carjacked by these teens that are out of control, whether it's in Chicago or Philadelphia or Los Angeles, or walking while Asian and not being beaten by these black teens.
88% of all interracial violence between blacks and whites and whites and blacks is committed by blacks on whites.
This fiction that, oh, blacks, that Biden, you know, repeated, of course, after the Ralph Yarl shooting in Kansas City, that, oh, these poor black parents have to worry that their kids are going to get shot by whites.
That is a complete lie.
Yes, black kids die at astronomically higher rates than whites because blacks are killing them, not whites.
That's right.
Let's play cut 28 of black teens creating mass violence and looting, and it's just justified.
It's normalized.
Play cut 28.
So, Heather, I was at a dinner recently, and there was a person who called himself a conservative, and he said, You know, Charlie, the only thing I don't like is your race stuff.
He said, We have to try to be compassionate and caring.
I said, Well, what don't you like?
He said, Well, for example, when you say that blacks commit more crimes than whites, well, I said, They do.
And he said, Well, no, no, that's racist.
You can't say that.
Heather, is it true?
On average, do blacks commit more crimes than whites?
Absolutely, they do.
It's way disproportionate.
The fact is, 30% of the prison population is black.
That's because they're committing crimes at that rate.
Here's what you can use, Charlie: the bodies don't lie.
Blacks are killed by gun homicide at 25 times the rate of whites between the ages of 10 and 24.
And the reason that they're killed at 25 times the rate of whites is because they're killing each other at that rate.
The rate of gun homicide commissioned by blacks is exactly that disproportionate.
The bodies, the fact of the matter is every day, dozens of blacks are killed in homicide.
That's more than all white and Hispanic victims of homicide combined, even though Blacks are only 13% of the population.
I can guarantee you they're not being killed by whites, Charlie, because if they were, we would hear about it.
They are being killed by Blacks and they're not being killed by the police.
So we've seen the videos, you know, we've seen the videos of the teens rampaging through the stores, looting them, of beating up on Asians.
And yet, we're all supposed to pretend that there's no crime difference.
It is preposterous.
The time for racial etiquette is over.
I get the idea that whites are uncomfortable with.
I think this is exactly right.
Yes, keep going, please.
They're uncomfortable with this pathological inner city culture.
And so they want to blame themselves.
And they don't want, it feels inappropriate to talk about the academic skills gap or to talk about the crime gap.
Charlie, the time for racial etiquette is over.
If the left and the mainstream elites are going to go around tearing down our institutions because they have a disparate impact on black criminals and blacks that do not have basic literary literacy skills,
if they're going to impugn the basic civilizational standards that are necessary to proceed, prosper, and develop science and medicine, then we are going to fight back with the facts.
And I am not going to be silenced by being called a racist.
It doesn't matter to me if you call me a racist.
I have the facts on my side, and I'm going to give those facts if necessary to preserve Western civilization.
That is a beautiful statement.
I totally agree.
The time for racial etiquette is over.
And so, Heather, we have only a minute and a half remaining.
Summarize how we fix this.
I mean, the book is so thoughtful.
I barely even got to my questions.
When race Trump's merit, everyone, buy a copy, buy a copy.
Right now, when race trumps merit, we're going to buy a bunch.
How do we fix this?
Is it time to tell the truth regardless of what they call us?
I think that is one of the big takeaways.
In my opinion, someone says, Charlie, how do we fix this?
The easiest and a simple way, I mean, there's like a 500 things we need to do, is if white America was willing to tell the truth without being controlled with hypnosis with the R word, our country would be in a much better spot.
Do you agree, Heather?
I agree.
That's it.
We've answered your question, but I will just say you've got to have the facts.
This book does give you the facts about the academic skills gap.
It gives you the facts on crime.
We have to have an alternative explanation for racism.
Right now, racism is the only allowable explanation for any racial disparity in an Alzheimer's lab, in a cancer research lab, in a law firm, in a tech company.
As long as racism is the only allowable explanation, the left wins, it is all coming down.
We have to have the correct explanation, which is the academic skills gaps and the crime gaps.
And we have to keep getting those facts out, not being cowed, never apologizing, never backing down.
That's exactly right.
When race trumps merit, we are living through a cultural revolution that historians hundreds from years from now will be flummoxed.
And they're going to have all sorts of debates and symposiums.
How and why did this happen?
Well, they're going to read Heather McDonald's book, and they're going to figure out why a great power decided to try to commit suicide.
Whether or not that suicide attempt is successful remains to be seen.
Heather, thank you so much.
And check out the book, When Race Trumps Merit.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email us your thoughts.
Freedom at CharlieKirk.com.
Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.
com.
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