How Good Gets Called Evil, and Evil Good—LIVE from CNP with Dr James Lindsay and Rob McCoy
Charlie is joined by Dr. James Lindsay and Pastor Rob McCoy LIVE from the Council of National Policy for a discussion on truth, Race Marxism, Critical Race Theories, and the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Charlie, Dr. Lindsay and Pastor McCoy discuss why the entirety of our current cultural crisis can be explained by the blurring of God-given distinctions by the secular left. Revealing the origin for many of today’s most radical ideologies, James and Charlie explain why these ideas are all linked by a common, sinister thread. Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Understanding Cultural Marxism00:04:36
Hey everybody, happy Sunday.
No advertisers on this episode, a conversation that I had with Pastor Rob McCoy and James Lindsay at the Council for National Policy about Genesis 1 through 11.
I think you'll really enjoy it.
Email me your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com and support our program at charliekirk.com slash support.
Text this episode to your friends.
Buckle up everybody here.
We go.
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
I want to thank Charlie.
He's an incredible guy.
His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created.
Turning point USA.
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
That's why we are here.
So we're talking about the left again, and we were talking about voter integrity, but now we have an attack on truth.
And especially with you, James, this transition in my mind from atheist to agnostic occurred when we were talking simply by the fact that you believe in absolute truth.
Yeah, I mean, absolute truth is where it has to start and where it has to end.
So with that, and also with Charlie, every day when you're on the radio, every day you're doing your podcast, every day you're doing these things, you're in pursuit of truth to contend for it.
And that's the one weapon we possess that will stop the left from destroying America.
What are the things that you're each doing?
Take as much time as you'd like.
And I'm going to start with you, Charlie, because I...
You're going to yield?
Okay.
Dr. James Lindsay is one of my favorite people to listen to.
So I'll just pull up a chair and let him riff.
Now, when you share, know that he still needs to go.
And remember, everyone is not as smart as you.
And they're drinking from a fire hydrant when you're speaking.
But fill him in because you have blessed the two of us beyond measure.
Take it over.
Yeah, Rob, they're going to have to deal with it because we've got like 20 minutes here.
So what am I doing?
So you talk about, I said just a second ago, the truth is the beginning and the end.
And you can take the biblical reference that you want out of that.
The point is that the truth means nothing if we have no discernment.
If you can't discern true from false, if you can't discern real from fake, that's why President Trump, some of the best words he ever spoke, as we all know he has the best words, were fake news.
If you can't discern real from fake, if you can't discern true from false, if you can't discern good from evil, then you have no hope.
But if you can discern those, as you said, we have the greatest weapon possible.
So what I do with almost all of my time is unfortunately read communism.
I read the woke literature, whether it's critical race theory.
I'm going to say a Q word you're going to have to start learning to deal with and get uncomfortably comfortable with, which is queer theory.
I read queer theory.
You say gender ideology, it's a euphemism.
They call it queer theory.
You have to understand what they think.
I read this.
I read post-colonial theory.
I read neo-Marxism, critical Marxism, critical education theory.
I read cultural Marxism, George Lukach, Antonio Gramsci.
I read Marx.
I read Engels.
I go back behind them.
I read Hegel.
I read Oettinger.
I read all of these philosophers that did basically what amounts to a, believe it or not, a new age movement of esoteric weirdness through the Middle Ages, getting codified with these guys, Hegel and Marx.
And I try to bring clarity so that people can start to discern through the mystifications, the distortions, the blurring of boundaries and blurring of clarity that the left is using to confuse us, to trick us, to trick good people into doing their evil work so that they forget and good gets named evil and evil gets named good.
And that's how we're actually getting here.
There are not that many.
The left is a smaller percentage of the population than you believe, but they're very good at using words you're familiar with like democracy against you.
We all believe in democracy, our democracy.
And Lennon explained very clearly, if you bother to read him in State and Revolution, that there's the proletarian democracy and that there's a bourgeois democracy.
Oh, there's two different kinds.
And only the one that's under the dictatorship is the real democracy.
Mao echoed this.
If you don't understand, then when you have a Democrat stand up and say, I believe in our democracy, Donald Trump having a Twitter is bad for our democracy.
Blurring Lines Between Man and God00:13:00
You don't understand that what they're telling you is that if we don't have communism, we're in danger.
You have to get that clarity.
And when you get that clarity, you can watch them on NMSNBC or CNN or whatever podcast or whatever they put out.
And you can tell, as I've got to be able to tell, when they're talking straight, because sometimes they are, when they're straight lying, because often they are, and when they're talking double, which is where it's most dangerous.
So I try to bring that clarity.
I spend all my time reading this junk to do that.
Okay.
Charlie's giving me more yielding and direction.
He wants me to talk about something he does.
So I'm going to direct this back to him because he put me on his podcast.
He said, come on my podcast again, James.
I say, yes, of course, Charlie.
I'll come on your podcast again.
And then I don't know if you've ever been on the Charlie Kirk show, but there's these commercials so he can talk about things that they have to make money with.
And during the commercial, if you are the guest, they propagandize you with Charlie's talks.
You have to listen to Charlie talk during the five-minute wait between segments.
And so here he is talking in front of some audience doing a discussion about discernment, about distinctions specifically.
And he's talking about the Bible.
I take the Bible very seriously.
And he says the reason the Bible is a core foundation for our civilization or any civilization that wants to thrive and flourish is because it's a book of distinctions.
And I immediately think that's because reality is a reality of distinctions.
And if we want to know the differences between good and evil, we have to realize there's a distinction between them.
It's not all relative.
If we want to understand the difference between truth and falsity, we have to understand that there are those distinctions.
If we want to know the difference, say, between men and women, we have to realize that there's a distinction and start there and be clear about those distinctions and be honest about those distinctions.
If you want to know the difference and most importantly, and I mean this very sincerely between God and man, you have to understand that there is a distinction there and you have to get clear on what that distinction is.
And thus, in a sense, if there's a kid say, know your role, which you're not God, so know your role.
Your authority is borrowed.
And in the United States of America, your authority is borrowed from the people with our consent, unless you screw up and we're going to get rid of you.
And these are the principles.
I'm listening to Charlie talk about this.
And so when I say we need discernment, when you need to cut through the way they use doubled meanings in language like democracy, right?
When I say this, what I'm saying is that we have to, if we want to understand reality, we want to navigate reality, what we have to do is understand enough of how they manipulate our descriptions of reality so that we can understand the actual distinctions, draw those distinctions into clarity, which everybody can see with their eyes and their ears.
Everybody can understand them without a layer of theory and gobbledygook obscuring that, and bring them back to reality.
And that's how we're actually going to claw our way out of the greatest threat to civilization that we've ever faced.
And if you don't know it, that's where we are.
Wow.
All right.
Charlie, I just wanted to segue, even though you set him up for your direction.
Charlie spoke at our church, covered the first 11 books, or first 11 chapters of Genesis.
It was one of the most brilliant talks.
When you speak, it's always brilliant.
But I was so blessed by that.
Charlie, I want to say in front of all these folks, thank you.
And I don't think they understand how significant the work that you and James do to the church in America.
We're so grateful.
Amen.
Take it over, Charlie.
Well, thank you.
And I love learning from Dr. Lindsay.
And I encourage all of you, if you have questions about queer theory, race Marxism, critical race theory, postmodernism, he has done more writing and speaking on this topic in a way that is digestible.
And he is intentionally trying to be able to make it understandable to the audiences.
And so his recent book, Race Marxism, should be taught in every single school across the country on critical race theory.
If you want to understand critical race theory and what they're trying to achieve and what they're trying to do, it is a deep book and it is irrefutable, the threat that you lay out in that, not to mention cynical theories.
And you have another new book on education.
It's fabulous.
Yeah, just really quick, what James was talking about and what Rob was talking about.
The first 11 books of Genesis, I think, are actually the most political books of the entire Bible.
You are told why you exist, what is our existence and the purpose of it, what is a human being, is man naturally good or naturally bad.
And it culminates in Genesis 11: what happens if you try to build a political project and ignore God and dishonor God.
Of course, the city of Babel, which unfortunately gets called the Tower of Babel, which is somewhat true, but it's technically actually the city of Babel.
They were trying to create a city, a metropolis, a centralized government.
And you could say that both Thomas Jefferson and the Torah hated centralized authority and centralized cities and cosmopolitan government without checks and balances.
What could be more political than that?
And I hear from pastors all the time: the Bible is not clear on politics.
All the time I hear that.
And I say, well, yeah, maybe because you tell your congregation not to read the Old Testament, which is unfortunately a new phenomenon.
Even the New Testament is.
But the point is this: almost everything we're living through right now can go back to the destruction and the blurring and the confusing of lines and distinctions that are clearly laid out in Genesis 1 through 11.
So the first is this: the distinction between man and God.
So it says very clearly that God made man.
Man did not make God.
That's a big deal.
Right now in America, there's the blurring of lines between man and God.
How about the blurring of lines between man and woman?
Distinctly and uniquely made separately with two different creation narratives.
How about the distinction of man and nature?
That nature is there for our purposes, that we are not nature.
We're not here to worship nature.
We did not come from nature.
In fact, you know that the biblical creation story is the only ancient world creation story where man is spoken into existence by the creator.
That's a very big deal.
In these other creation stories, it's the pagan gods would have sex with the land, and it was very strange and messy.
No, it's that God's spoken into existence.
Why?
Because God, we're made in the image of God.
And rational speech is our ability to be able to make sense of a confused and broken world.
And since we're made in the image of God, how do we create in the earthly realm through rational speech, dialogue, or as what John would call it very simply, the logos?
So every distinction that gives us order and gives us a connection to the transcendent and the divine and the eternal is daily, hourly trying to be obliterated by the culture and the secular left.
And so if we are trying to restore Western civilization and we're trying to save our country, we have to start at the foundational building blocks, which is to understand the distinctions are actually where we derive our liberty from.
And this is at the heart of the trans movement.
This is at the heart of the LGBTQ movement.
This is the heart of critical race theory, is that they believe the distinctions are actually tyrannical, false constructs, and they're trying to get rid of all of them.
Every dictator tried to do this in one shape or form.
And this is my call to action to all of you that are believers out there.
And even if you're not a believer like James Lindsay, this should also animate you, but especially believers, which is if we're watching the blurring of distinctions that God put into existence happen and crumble all around us, and we do nothing, I think that is one of the most immoral acts of passivity and inaction that we could possibly do.
And then finally, the last distinction that is being blurred is the distinction of good versus evil.
And how do you know what is good is good?
I ask that question all the time at college kids.
They say, well, it's just common sense.
You know that we are all recipients of a Christian inheritance.
We are all recipients of a Christian inheritance.
I'll name three things that are not common sense values in the rest of the world, that children should not be taken advantage of.
That is not common sense.
That is a Christian value.
How about that power should not be centralized in one person and should be separate with checks and balances?
How about that we should look after the poor as if they're just as important as we are?
I could go on and on and on.
These are Christian inheritances that the rest of the world does not necessarily honor.
What is the point?
I'll just, I mean, I could keep on going on this, but the point is this: if we don't honor our inheritance, and if we as Christians and believers just kind of look from the sidelines and keep on giving these little cheap one-liners, like, oh, I only preach the gospel here.
I don't get into controversial stuff.
You're a waste of time.
You should resign from the ministry.
Like, we're here to save the civilization.
Charlie, I'm going to ask you one more question.
Charlie.
Love that.
No, no, no.
I'm actually going to ask you to continue.
I want you to share with the folks the left's desire to be God.
And you talked about abortion in this.
You talked about transgender.
Just share with them.
That was so profound.
Yeah, this is going to, I'm going to do my best here in a short period of time.
So in Biblical Hebrew, the word create is only ever used with God, never with human beings.
Okay?
It's never used in the realm of human beings.
So to be able to change nature is a new secular German historicist scientist belief.
So science, we all love science, but you should love science the right way.
Science should be about understanding, exploring the natural world, not trying to change the natural world.
That's a big difference.
We believe the natural world is worthy of appreciation and understanding because we believe there is a melody and a harmony to the natural world because we believe in Genesis 1:1, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
We do not believe nature is an accident.
We do not believe that the natural world just came into existence because of a roll of the dice.
It has purpose.
It's there for a reason.
The original scientific investigation of the West was always under the purposes that this was created and let's better understand it.
Sir Isaac Newton, the founder of modern physics, wrote more about biblical prophecy in Isaiah than he ever did about physics.
Devout Christians are responsible for all the major scientific breakthroughs until the mid-1800s, which will be a perfect baton to James because it changed in one sense.
These German secular historicists adopted a different belief that we now can be like gods.
This ideology was responsible for Nazism, for communism, because then all of a sudden they said, well, if there's a science to the natural world, then there must be a politics, a science of politics, that we could figure out the same way that we can figure out, you know, force equals mass times acceleration, there could be a perfect way to govern human beings.
And all these old documents, the Bible is outdated and all of this.
And one of the great fallacies of our time that permeates the American academy is because we have technological advancements, we somehow no longer need the ancient treatises or writings or books or documents that used to govern man.
Just because you have Twitter and you could fly cross-country from LA to New York does not mean all of a sudden the soul of man has improved.
Guess what?
The soul in the heart of man without being reborn of Jesus Christ is just as broken today as it was 2,000 or 3,000 years ago.
Period.
It's unchanging.
So what does that do with the trans movement?
It is very simple.
They do not believe two things we all believe.
We believe there is a God and you are not him.
Okay?
That is clear distinctions.
They believe that there is no God and if there was, I want to be God.
The trans movement is trying to change biological reality through intrusive interventionist force, which is a perfect segue to James.
Take a riff on that.
How wild do we want to get with this?
Let me start, if I may, Pastor, with a little exegesis off of Genesis 3.
He's one of the best Bible preachers in America, and nobody knows.
Yeah, by the way, he knows more about the Bible than most pastors that I know.
That's not a joke.
I want you to reflect upon what Charlie just said about what trans boils down to, what the queer theory ideology boils down to.
And then I want you to realize that the first manipulation of language that's recorded in Genesis 3 is, in fact, this blurring of distinction.
By the way, did you know, Eve, you're just like God.
There's no real distinction between you and God.
And that's literally what we're dealing with.
This is why for over two years I've been sitting on stages, not a Christian, and saying we're in the same fight as in Genesis 3, the same story as Genesis 3.
And we have the same risk.
The Technocratic Republic's Two Levels00:03:19
But what happens, just to pull out of that and not exegete too long, to come back to talk about this German historicism, what they actually did was they imported from a character a little further back in time, Plato, way earlier, what he called science, in fact, scientia.
And scientia for Plato, who was a tyrant, had in his ideal republic, which was a technocratic tyranny, with the philosopher kings sitting on top and their Praetorian guard below to protect, and then the bronze-class workers doing everything and the poor hoipeloi making their miserable way as mud people or whatever.
This technocratic republic had two levels of understanding.
What he called scientia was broken into two pieces: episteme, which is the reason that he believed that the philosopher kings had access to, that is the correct science of politics to impose upon everything else.
And below that, dianoia.
Dianoia was what we would call understanding, and that's what informs techni, which is the ability to do technical work or understand things.
This gets imported straight into German through this new age movement and all of these goofy historicists and gets codified by Hegel, who renames episteme in German to hide the fact that he's just stealing somebody else's work and calls it fernunft, which means reason.
And then he calls a lower level of understanding, which is actually understanding the world we live in, understanding the distinctions of the world we live in, für Stand.
And Vernunft has to rule over Ferstand.
This comes to Marx, and he says we have this scientific, there's that word, scientia, scientific socialism, a Wiesenschaft Licher Socialismus.
And so the socialist science is now going to dictate exactly how we're going to turn the real science, the understanding of the world.
And we read Mao Zedong, and he lays out in a speech he gave in 1957, immediately before he launched what's called the Great Leap, or Great Reset.
Which one did he call it?
I forget.
The Great Leap Forward, which killed 55 million people, tanked the economy so bad that they actually first call it the greatest economic disaster in human history.
And secondly, actually, we're able to depose Mao for four or five years because it was so bad they got him kicked out of power.
The CCP stayed in.
He came back, cultural revolution in 66.
But he gives in this speech, he says, you know what?
We're going to have a thousand or a hundred.
We're going to let 100 flowers bloom.
We're going to let 100 ideas and schools contest.
He says, we're going to have free speech in China.
Except if you're against the socialists, we're going to take away all your free speech because you're not part of us.
But if you're a socialist, you have free speech.
You can say whatever, criticize the government, blah, blah, blah.
He has this as he launches this campaign.
And he gives six criteria to determine right from wrong, since now you have to have some method to determine right from wrong, even within the socialist paradigm.
What upholds the party?
What reinforces socialism?
He gives these six criteria, whatever they all are.
And then he says, these are the most important.
But of course, in the arts and sciences, he goes on.
In the arts and sciences, he says, you need to have different ideas.
You have to have other authorities.
But what possible art or science, he concludes the paragraph with, what possible art and science could exist that contradicts socialism?
And so even they will be subject to these six political criteria.
In other words, Mao takes their fernungft.
He takes the episteme and he overlays it over their first stand or the dianoia.
Identifying Modern Gnosticism00:06:28
And he says there's a correct way to understand the world and we're going to impose it upon everybody.
And now we have this in woke.
It's the same thing.
Conscientized.
You have a critical consciousness.
You've left one-dimensional understanding where you understand the world and entered two-dimensional understanding, as Herbert Marcuse explained it, where you have a critical understanding, a moral and teleological understanding of the world that's designed to create a rupture with existing reality so that we can enter into a liberation from existing reality and become fully autonomous.
Or as the same Herbert Marcuse, the leading neo-Marxist of the 1960s, wrote in his very creepy sex book in 1955, which is called Eros and Civilization, his first major English language work.
He said, the way back into the garden is to take a second bite from the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
This is what we are actually up against.
And I mean this with utter sincerity.
We are up against a cult, the largest cult in human history.
It has an inner circle of people who are pulling the strings and they understand what they're doing.
It has an inner school of adepts who have studied in Chinese Chui Shi under what Mao made you do.
And it has an outer school of initiates who are learning to see the world from the so-called people's standpoint or the positionality of the oppressed in modern language.
We are dealing with the same communist cult, Nazi cult, actually.
They're not different.
They're in the exact same vein.
They just have two opposite views of oppression.
The communists said oppression is bad because we're on the outside, so we should move to the middle and get to be the oppressors.
The Nazis said oppression is good because it put people like us on top, so we're going to do more of it.
Otherwise, it's the exact same program.
Identical.
That's the only difference.
And what this is, is a cult obsessed with power that begins with the assumption that man is an incomplete being who is capable of completing himself.
And at the end of that, he and I quote, becomes God.
You want to jump on?
I know we're so short.
That's all right.
Do it.
Yeah, I just want for all the believers out there.
I cannot emphasize enough how critical it is that after this meeting, you go back to your pastors, you go back to your church member elders, and if they are not actively talking about all these things, you need to stop supporting that church or leave that church and find the pastors that are.
The American church needs to understand that this is the greatest manifestation of the spiritual war that is now right in front of us and the lack of moral or biblical or theological clarity on this topic.
Isn't it interesting that we have to now go to an agnostic academic to go tell the American church what's actually happening?
And that's the point.
Charlie, this is now.
That's not the word.
Name it.
Give it the G word.
Oh, Gnosticism.
This is Gnosticism.
Yeah.
So this is so important.
And oh my goodness, we don't have enough time to get into it.
Gnosticism, which was proposed in the heretical gospel of Thomas, is now everywhere.
And so many pastors, people like Andy Stanley, and yes, I do name the names of these pastors, by the way, and you should too.
They are allowing this ideology back into the church via all these sleeper cell vessels.
And so we're short on time.
I could go deeper into it, but it will determine the future of the kingdom in America.
Let me put one leg on that so you can see it's Gnosticism.
Let's keep going.
Real quick, real quick.
It takes 10 seconds.
Marx stopped believing that the demiurge, that's a magic Gnostic word, that's the evil demon that rules the world and controls everything.
He took it out of the spiritual realm, the God's realm, and he put it in the bourgeoisie.
When Marx says the bourgeois class, he means the demiurge.
So what do you do?
You seize the means of production of man, society, and the world from it, and you become the demiurge.
You become the demon.
Doesn't that explain all of Marxism?
All right.
You need to hear this.
Charlie, take it.
Just leave me 20 seconds.
We are not the only ones as Christians that now are promising eternal life.
That's right.
Transhumans.
For years, Christianity was popular because we have promised eternity.
And now they are too.
Transhumanism.
Yeah, so you'll upload your consciousness into the astral realm, right?
And then you get to live forever.
That's hell, but okay.
Yeah.
Correct.
And so the question is, what are we Christians going to do now when the enemy is trying to promise a falsified, synthetic, obviously heretical version?
What they've done is they have appropriated the promise and the beauty of Christianity, and they've put it through a scientific, secular lens.
And we're wondering, why are we losing our kids?
Well, because they took all Christian elements, for example, the religion of anti-racism.
They take all the sacraments from all of it and then they put it through a lens.
Wouldn't that, that's exactly what Satan would do.
He wouldn't go create a totally fake and false opposite.
He would take the proven elements of Christianity and launder it through a lens that could get people to think that they're doing something righteous and virtuous when in reality they're on the way to hell.
Wow.
All right.
We're out of time.
I'm going to conclude with this.
You began with Genesis 3.
You talked about Eve.
Sin and trouble entered when a human being disobeyed God's command.
Protestants don't venerate Mary enough.
I struggle over that.
But when you see the Magnificat, the amazing thing about Mary is unlike Eve, hope and salvation came into the world by obeying God's commandment.
You want to see the nation saved?
Do exactly what Benjamin Rush, when he spoke to John Adams, he says, is there any hope for this experiment?
And John Adams said, yes, if we fear God and repent.
God bless you guys.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email me your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thank you so much for listening, and God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.