The FBI is Spying on Catholics? with Michael Knowles
An FBI memo has leaked with a political bombshell hidden inside: The FBI is deliberately spying on the nation's traditional Catholics. Charlie welcomes Catholic traditionalist Michael Knowles on the show to unpack this shocking revelation. What are the implications for Catholics, other Christians, and nonbelievers? How does this resemble the practices of the Soviet KGB? And if the FBI has gone so far astray from where it should be, should the FBI even exist as it currently does at all?Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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FBI Investigates Traditional Catholics00:01:43
Hey everybody, today in the Charlie Kirk show, we talk a little bit about the Project Veritas deal, but we spend a lot of time on the Latin Mass story.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation is investigating traditional Catholics.
It's an extraordinary story.
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A bombshell story.
This should be one of the biggest stories in the country.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI, our domestic federal national police force, has come out and they had a whole memo that has been leaked by the Richmond FBI, an entire memo titled This.
Christianity Threatens Totalitarianism00:07:01
Interest of racially or ethnically motivated violent extremists in radical traditionalist Catholic ideology almost certainly presents new mitigation opportunities.
The document was published by former FBI agent Kyle Serafin, who obtained it from a whistleblower.
God bless this whistleblower for leaking it.
So to describe traditionalist Catholics as terrorists in waiting, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI document, relied on assessments from the SPLC, the Southern Poverty Law Center.
That's the left-wing group whose entire reason for existence is to slander as many conservative groups as it can as hate groups and domestic terrorists.
The article also cites an article from the left-wing group salon.com.
A major piece of evidence that traditional Catholics are radical, according to the document, is the quote, increase in hostility towards abortion rights advocates on social media prior to the Dobbs decision.
So here is the National Police Force, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, that is writing a memo that they might have to mitigate people of faith.
Now, I am not a Catholic.
I'm not a traditional Catholic.
I'm an evangelical Protestant, Bible-believing Christian.
I have huge respect for Catholics, especially traditional Catholics.
Some of my closest friends are Catholics.
Some of my colleagues, Jack Pasobic, Catholic.
What is really going on here?
This is not about Catholicism.
This is not about traditional Catholics.
What's really going on here is a trend, a pattern, and a theme to go after the faithful.
And they need to do this.
You see, God, faith, and community are local and decentralized.
Strong decentralized communities who have freedom of speech, freedom of inquiry, and free decision-making capacity or agency cannot be governed by tyrants.
It's very hard to govern and to control the decentralized.
A local church, a local parish, a local community becomes harder to control.
Deploying the shock troops, the FBI, to potentially spy on, monitor, and surveill or infiltrate Catholic mass.
It's not just a violation of the Constitution, but we know the government doesn't care about the Constitution.
It goes to show who they really deem to be the threat in our country.
Is the threat the LGBTQ groups that are storming capitals?
Well, storming might be a little bit, I guess it is storming, flooding the capital in Oklahoma, which that same behavior they said was domestic terrorism and an insurrection.
Christianity, taking your Christianity seriously, is a threat to totalitarianism.
If every single day you go through a practice, you go through a set of rituals where you acknowledge that there is a higher power.
If you acknowledge Genesis 1-1, you are a threat to the regime.
If you acknowledge very simply, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
If you actually believe that, then all of a sudden, by definition, it will be harder for you to accept tyranny.
Every major totalitarian government needed to make people question Genesis 1-1.
Now, you might have all sorts of different philosophical or religious beliefs in our audience, but you must acknowledge in some way, shape, or form, even if you don't believe Genesis 1-1, at least I want you to believe and be honest to yourself.
If a society ceases to believe that, what are the implications of that?
You see, secular totalitarianism necessitates people that do not have faith-filled communities.
This is the FBI, the federal Bureau of Investigation, that is now potentially going to spy on Catholics.
Now, they say, Oh, well, we've pulled the memo and we're no longer going to honor this.
So, the FBI has retracted the document.
But look, they're not sorry because of what they wrote.
They retracted it because they got caught.
One other thing about this document that's very telling is how routine it looks.
It's not one proposal or just one person where they say, Hey, I think these Catholics are a problem.
We should go after them.
The document claims to be based on local sources and liaison reporting.
The FBI is already monitoring Catholics, and this guy just wrote it up.
I have to wonder: is the FBI currently monitoring Jack Hibbs, my pastor, Rob McCoy?
Is the FBI currently monitoring other pastors across the country?
How many other pastors, how many other members of the faith community are they monitoring?
Are they monitoring me and this program?
Almost assuredly, almost a guarantee.
Are they trying to infiltrate churches?
How does this, how do you reconcile this with religious liberty and religious freedom?
Look, the FBI can't find enough real terrorists.
There is a supply and demand problem with terrorists in our country.
The same issue with supply and demand with racism.
You have all these institutions that are designed to try to find racism, and there is so little racism, it is so rare, it is so hard to find that you have to actually fake your own hate crimes to be able to satisfy the appetite and satisfy the demand to try to justify the belief that America is a racist country, which of course we are not.
The same thing is now with terrorism.
The entire infrastructure that was set up post-9/11 by Lady Graham and by Republicans and many other people to spy on Americans, create the Patriot Act, and FISA courts.
It turns out that America is actually a pretty decent country and a non-terroristic country at that.
It turns out that, but you got to give something for these people to do.
You got to give them some work.
So what do you tell the FBI to go do?
Go find the terrorists.
Well, you got to keep on diving deeper.
Well, I guess the traditional Catholics, I guess, might be terrorists because they go and pray the rosary.
And that is actually something that they cited in their documents.
Last August, the Atlantic labeled the rosary as an extremist symbol.
We laughed at it and we said, oh, that's insane.
And that's nonsense.
But then the FBI took that article and they cited it as evidence to then go and target Catholics.
This is a critical ingredient to try and turn America into a totalitarian country.
Rosary Labeled Extremist Symbol00:04:07
And isn't it amazing?
The president says he's Catholic.
The president currently says he is Catholic.
And maybe he is, maybe he is not.
I'll let fellow, you know, not my fellow Catholics, but my friends that are Catholics interpret that.
That a president who says he's Catholic, his FBI is doing this.
Has Joe Biden faced a single question on this topic?
Joe Biden, the Catholic, has he faced a single question on this?
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So I want to just build this out a little bit more for the faithful out there.
And even if you're not a person of faith, you know, we received an email here, Charlie, I love your show.
I'm an atheist, but this really concerns me.
It should concern you, regardless of your religious belief.
Religious Liberty vs Government Overreach00:15:37
This is an issue of liberty and government overreach and separation of powers, but it is a fact that absent some form of a belief in a transcendent moral order and objective good, you are going to be more likely than not to slip into totalitarianism.
I was just with a group of Turning Point USA supporters this morning and wonderful people who generously support our work.
And someone said, Charlie, I don't understand why Americans do not want self-government anymore.
And the best answer I can give to that is: if you want self-government, then you first must have a priority in your own life to pursue virtue, to try to have, to lead a moral and ethical and good life.
It's easier to want to be controlled.
Religion and Christianity mainly, properly understood, is the opposite of that.
It's don't look to government for the answer to your solutions.
You look to God.
Or in other examples, it's to look to your rabbi or look to your priest.
And those are all great things.
Look, the Soviet Union used to make vodka very cheap to placate the masses.
They wanted to try to mass medicate society.
It's one of the reasons why I think the legalization of marijuana could potentially be so damaging, is that you do not want to massively medicate your society or put goggles on an entire generation via the metaverse.
But look, I do want to ask a certain question here, though.
So as an evangelical Christian, I don't obviously do confession.
It's not something that is a sacrament or even a practice in Protestant circles, but I fully get why Catholics do it and why they treasure it, why they value it.
I think it's really, really good.
I think it's really actually healthy if it's done properly.
And so, but here's a good, here's an interesting question: that in Catholicism, when you confess your sins to a priest, priest, the seal of the confessional is supposed to be ironclad.
A priest can never reveal what was confessed to him ever.
Now, again, in Soviet Russia, they used to have informants in the churches, and those informants included priests that would pass the intelligence to the government.
Here's a very simple question with a historical basis: Would the FBI do the same sort of thing here?
Is the FBI currently doing that?
Is the FBI currently working with priests as double agents?
This is a very simple question.
Are there currently priests in America that are leaking information of private confessionals to the FBI?
This impacts everybody, top down.
It's more than the overreach of government.
This is a complete sea change.
And let's just play this out.
Let's pretend that the FBI had a document that was revealed, that was leaked, that said that LGBTQ or gay groups might result in violence, and we need to spy on them.
We need to monitor them.
There would be riots in the streets.
It would be the number one news story on CNN and MSNBC.
However, we have allowed ourselves to be conditioned through mass propaganda, through network television, to kind of look at Christians as an easy punching bag.
Those are the religious people.
It's fine.
It's all right.
But the gay groups, you could do whatever.
They could do whatever they want.
Now, I'm not implying that LGBT groups are more likely to commit violence than other groups.
That's not what I'm saying.
But if a memo were to say that, the country would be in bedlam.
Here's a good question.
Where is the leaked FBI memo that says that pro-abortion groups are more likely to participate in violence?
That we do have evidence for.
They tried to kill Brett Kavanaugh, literally.
They were outside his home with rope to kidnap the family and torture Brett Kavanaugh.
And praise God, U.S. Marshals were able to intercede and arrest him.
How about the bombing of pro-life centers across the country?
So we know that's the case.
And yet the organizations and the nonprofits and now the community of Catholics that are pro-life that has now been relentlessly attacked by the actual terrorists are the ones that get monitored and spied on by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
This is not sustainable.
This is evil and this is wrong.
Where is the Catholic president exactly?
Where is the Catholic former Speaker of the House?
Probably supportive of this.
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Joining us now is our resident Vatican I Catholic.
Michael can tell all of our Protestant audience members what that means.
Michael, welcome to the program.
Look, if they were spying on you, I would totally understand that.
In fact, I would probably say, you know what?
I get it.
But I mean, looking after other traditional Catholics, this is out of line.
Michael, your thoughts?
I'll tell you, Charlie, I saw this report, and I know that many Catholics are dismayed that the federal government is apparently spying on parishes around the country, especially the parishes that celebrate the traditional Mass.
But the government's argument is that Catholics who go to this traditional Mass are radical, violent extremists.
And this is in fact true.
This is true, especially in one regard, because these masses have a lot of toddlers.
You know, the median age at these masses is about nine.
It's young, happy couples.
They've got lots and lots of kids.
And toddlers tend to be some of the most radical, violent, and extreme people on earth.
So I don't think the government is going to put them in orange suits and drag my little two-year-old off to Guantanamo Bay or something like that.
But I could see at least how they would get confused, why they have decided that they want to spy on all the people for just going to Mass.
So Michael, educate our audience.
What is traditional Catholicism, right?
Why is this something that is noteworthy for the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
From my understanding it, these are very devout Catholics that take their faith incredibly seriously, but they have to add this whole idea of Latin Mass.
Every person that I know that goes to Latin Mass, they're incredibly faithful and take their entire journey very seriously.
What is it about Latin Mass that the FBI is so concerned about?
Well, one of the misconceptions is that the Latin Mass is just the Mass in Latin.
That's not exactly it.
When people talk about the traditional Latin Mass, they're talking about the Mass that existed before the changes that came after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s and then into the 1970s.
This was the Mass that existed for pretty much 2,000 years.
It's the Mass of all the great saints, or at least most of the great saints.
And it is different in its orientation.
At that Mass, the priest tends to be facing the altar rather than facing the people.
There are more prayers.
The symbolism tends to be a little richer, I think, and deeper.
It's generally more reverent.
You don't get a lot of mariachi bands or electric guitars.
The people are a little bit more somber, more modest, and they're focused on this representation of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
Now, the way that the FBI leaked memo presented this, they tried to make it seem like the traditional Latin Mass.
These are a bunch of breakaway, crazy, fringe, extreme Catholics.
That is not the case.
I attend the Latin Mass regularly, and the groups that we're talking about here, there's especially one group in particular listed in this memo, but there are a number of others, and there are diocesan masses.
These are people who are in full unity with the Vatican.
They're just regular old Catholics who prefer a more reverent and traditional form of the Mass.
And the federal government says this is a big problem.
And I think the reason for that is that since the changes that came after the Second Vatican Council, which were not mandated, by the way, by Vatican II, there is a distinction to be made here.
But after those changes, a lot of Catholics fell away from their faith or became confused by their faith, believe in many cases really central aspects of what's going on at the Mass or their faith.
And you see this bleed over into political issues.
So there are a lot of Catholics who will call themselves Catholics.
They'll support things like abortion.
That's Joe Biden.
That's Nancy Pelosi.
There are people who call themselves Catholics.
They support the radical redefinition of marriage to say that marriage can be between people other than a man and a woman.
And all these really crazy, radical things.
Well, when you look at the Catholics who prefer the traditional form of the Mass, that just doesn't happen.
These are people who are not generally confused by the changes that have come around in the last 50 years.
And so that's why the government's going after them, because you've got Joe Biden who is scandalously and flagrantly violating core aspects of his faith.
And the Catholics who prefer the traditional form of worship, they're a real obstacle to him presenting himself as a Catholic.
And then the other reason is an important phrase, we'll use Latin even if the feds are going to kick in my door for uttering this phrase.
But the phrase is lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi, meaning the way that we worship God is going to affect the way that we believe, the thoughts that we have, and it's going to affect the way that we live our lives.
So if you worship God in a way that's really irreverent and it's really just kind of focused on you and other people and your fashions and fun music or whatever, that's going to lead to certain forms of belief and certain way of life.
And if you worship God in a way that's reverent, it's really focused on God and it's in the way that God seems to want to be worshipped in the scripture, then that's going to lead to other kinds of beliefs about culture, about politics, about your country, about who you are.
And that's, I think, why the feds are so worried, because if we worship God in a respectful way, then we're not going to put up with the nonsense that these guys are foisting on our culture.
Well, yeah, that's exactly right.
And so if they want to try to achieve some form of secular totalitarianism, they need to try to infiltrate or stunt the growth, because from what I understand, Latin mass is actually growing in certain communities across the country.
It's not decreasing despite people's predictions, which were totally and terribly wrong.
But Michael, can you just comment a little bit on why the Leviathan looks at the faithful as a threat?
In every totalitarian communist country, they need to try to disconnect the people from a belief in a transcendent order.
Why?
The devil hates the church.
That's the basic way to put it.
And there are many reasons for this, but the central reason is that Christ's death on the cross and resurrection on the third day is the final most radical political revolution that there can possibly be.
Because it takes away from tyrants the last tool in their toolbox.
The last ultimate tool in the toolbox of the tyrants is that they will kill you if you don't do what they say.
And Christ's death on the cross and his resurrection say, who cares?
You can kill my body.
You cannot kill my soul.
I have the promise of life everlasting.
And this is why totalitarians despise the church.
This is true in the extreme far-right kind of pagan governments that you've seen in history.
This is especially pronounced in communist governments.
It's going on right now in Latin America.
It's going on.
You've saw it obviously for much of the 20th century in Russia and in China.
This is nothing new at all.
It's very dismaying to see this happen here in the United States because we tend to think of our country as a Christian country.
We like to think of us as the good guys.
But our government right now is in such a sorry state.
I think about our rulers, our rulers who are celebrating the slaughter of babies, our rulers who are demanding the castration of little children.
And these people say our number one priority where we've got to put our taxpayer resources behind infiltrating mass on Sunday to stop people from radically receiving the Eucharist and kneeling and praying and worshiping God.
It seems so absurd until you realize that when it comes to corrupt and wicked civil authorities, this has been the case for all of history.
So, Michael, I got to ask, though, where's our Catholic president speaking out against this or our former Speaker of the House who is Catholic?
This is perplexing to me.
Charlie, you know this very well.
Man cannot serve two masters.
And leftism is a jealous God.
Liberalism is an angry, jealous God.
And what is very sad for President Biden, Speaker Pelosi, a lot of other people, Andrew Cuomo, They're happy to tout their faith when they think that it will get them votes and make them seem normal and traditional.
But the moment that there is a disagreement between their leftism and their Catholicism, 100% of the time, these sorts of people choose leftism.
And it tells you where their true faith really lies.
Yeah, and it's not in the internal, the good, or the beautiful or the true.
Michael, this is extraordinary stuff, and it's been largely quiet from the media.
I wouldn't be surprised if they're also trying to infiltrate Protestant circles or spying on them.
We just so happen to know about this because of a single FBI whistleblower.
The document is not some one-off thing.
This was thoroughly researched.
They probably do have active plants and cells within Catholic churches.
I certainly hope there are no priests going along with it, but I almost guarantee, based on the way the document is written, this seems as if this has been a plan set in motion for quite some time, which really makes you think the line between religious liberty and freedom.
Inversion of True Faith00:06:36
And we really do have a supply and demand problem with terrorism in our country.
America is actually a really decent country.
And the terrorists that are actually the ones bombing pro-life centers, they get seats at the table with the president.
And traditional Catholics are the ones that get penalized and terrorized.
Such a good point, Charlie.
And you're right.
I'm sure that our federal agent friends are going into all sorts of churches, some conservative Protestant churches too.
I, for one, welcome our friends from Quantico.
Anything that gets someone through the doors of a church and into the pew, fine by me.
It's a good opportunity for evangelization.
They're going after the traditional Catholics, as they call us here, especially because it's the oldest, it's the most intransigent form of the faith, and it therefore poses such an opposition to the modern world.
But they're going after any threat.
And when you see what the leftists consider to be their biggest threat, I think that can be a wonderful recommendation of truth, goodness, and beauty.
If Joe Biden and his jackbooted federal agents are going after something, that's probably a good sign that maybe you should look into it.
Michael, I want to play a piece of tape here.
It's very interesting.
We like to try to play tapes in Nicole Hannah Jones with some regularity because in some ways she is like the high priestess of the secular religion of anti-racism.
Let's play cut 11, please.
As you look at America, are people adjusting to, thinking about, being challenged by these ideas?
And are we moving in a positive direction or do you see something that's frozen?
What I would argue is that the arc of the universe doesn't bend one way or another.
We bend it.
As Americans, it's which country do we want to be?
Do we want to be the country that begins in 1619 with the practice of slavery?
Or do we want to be the country that was conceived in 1776 with the ideas of liberty and equality?
I think that is unknown.
I think we always are seeing the tension in the fight between these two halves.
Michael, there's a lot there.
When she says that the moral bending of the moral arc bends towards justice, you have a great shtick on that.
But just riff a little bit on why this is so important to refute Nicole Hanna-Jones.
And what is the fallacy here of this idea of the moral arc of history bending towards justice?
Well, what's amazing is that what she's saying, as is always the case with leftism, is that it's just a total perversion of Christianity.
First of all, just to start, that is exactly right.
That is totally correct.
Did you see?
She says, do we want America's founding to be 1619 or 1776?
She says it has nothing to do with objective reality.
It has nothing to do with a God outside of us.
It's just about whatever we want.
And the irony, of course, is her 1619 project sets out with the explicit goal of resetting the founding of America in 1619.
She seems to suggest in that interview, well, I'd prefer if it were 1776.
But no, she's saying it's just us who decides, and I'm going to decide 1619, and it's going to make our country seem really, really terrible.
But then you really see this perversion of Christianity here where she's talking about the moral arc of the universe.
Because liberals and progressives have used this line for a long time.
From Hegel.
That's right.
That's right.
And they do it because it perverts a real observation of Christianity.
And the observation of Christianity is that history matters.
And history is a line, not a circle.
And the incarnation of Jesus Christ is an actual pivotal moment in history.
This is central to writers like Dante Lighier.
It's central to so much of Western culture.
That we're not just kind of going around and being reincarnated.
We're going somewhere.
But what the progressives did is they stole this idea of history and they said, okay, the way history moves is it always just gets better and better and better because we become more rationalist, we become more secular, we become more scientifically advanced.
And so everything that happened in the past is bad.
The present is always a crisis.
And the future is going to be rosy.
Just give me all your money and all your power.
And that's how we're going to get there.
So it's not that it's totally different.
It's that it's this inversion of Christianity.
And then what she did is she took it even further.
She said, no, history, even progress, even progress, that's not real in any objective sense.
History is just whatever we want it to be.
And I know George Orwell is always invoked by conservatives, probably a little bit too much, but this is a great example of an Orwellian prediction coming true, which is that she's saying, we can rewrite the history books.
Every historical, it's just whatever we want it to be.
And what the Christian would say to that is, no, actually, we have free will.
We craft our world as best as we can, but there is an overarching providence to the universe.
God has actually ordered all things from the beginning of time, ultimately, until the end of the age.
And what Nicole Hannah Jones does is she falls into the same lie that you see in the Garden of Eden.
You see Whitaker Chambers, a former communist, say this was the central lie of communism, that it all just goes back to that primal evil, which is men believing that we shall be as gods.
And she's saying, yes, you are gods.
This is what Yuval Harari says, the author of Sapiens.
This is what the World Economic Forum is telling us.
I mean, this is what elites have told us from time immemorial.
Ye shall be as gods.
And I tell you, I would much rather live in a world where God is God than a world in which Nicole Hannah Jones is God.
Yeah, so Nicole Hannah Jones, in a single sentence, will say, I'm so oppressed.
I'm also God.
Oh, really?
That's interesting.
How does that work?
So you're super oppressed, and you also have godlike powers.
Michael, that was so deep and so helpful.
I hope everyone listens to that or relistens to it back on our podcast.
It had a lot of wisdom there.
We don't have time to explore it.
Michael, thank you.
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Thank you, Michael.
Great to see you, Charlie.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email me your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thank you so much for listening, and God bless.
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