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Dec. 23, 2022 - The Charlie Kirk Show
34:39
Christmas and the Incarnation with Frank Turek and Pastor Russell B. Johnson
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Political and Religious Moments 00:10:27
Hey, everybody.
Today on the Charlie Kirk Show, my conversation with Russell Johnson, who is a pastor from Snohomish, Washington, great place.
And then Frank Turek, who runs I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist.
Terrific organization.
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Here we go.
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With us now is Pastor Russell Johnson, the lead pastor at the Pursuit Northwest.
I've seen many of his clips on social media.
Russell, welcome to the program.
You describe yourself as a recovering politician.
Tell us about that.
Yeah, it's an honor to be here.
Thanks for the invite, Charlie.
Yeah, I spent about 10 years in the public policy space and really kind of assumed that that is what I would give my life to.
And God had other plans.
And about my 10th year of working on campaigns and being a lobbyist and working for the state House of Representatives, God directed me into the church world.
And we planted a church called Pursuit eight years ago, just north of Seattle in a little town called Snohomish, just opened a campus.
I love Snohomish.
It's gorgeous.
It's funny.
Yeah, it's a little town of about 8,000, but we were seeing God really do some incredible things.
And we just put a campus actually in Seattle, two blocks from the University of Washington.
And so we're just, you know, having fun here in the Northwest, provoking darkness and doing what we can to spread the light.
Yeah, I love your preaching style.
So I have to ask you, being in politics and now being in the church, compare and contrast those.
Because in my experience, some churches are actually nastier than even the political world can be.
Right.
You know, I think when I got into church work, I thought to myself, how will there be any parallel experience or knowledge, you know, from the governmental world?
And you find out that there's a lot of politics in the church world as well.
And so, you know, God knew what he was doing and he has ways of preparing and training you for the days that are ahead, even when you don't know what those days will hold.
You know, but there's a lot of coalition building and fundraising and advocating for ideas and building teams of people and rallying around ideas.
And, you know, a lot of the skills that we used in our campaign work have now become analogous traits that we use in the church world as well.
But I really view the church as upstream, you know, and they are kind of like the guardians of worldview.
And so although I'm not directly involved in politics today, I still feel very involved in the public policy space because we are doing what we can to win the war for worldview.
And when you win the war for worldview, it has, you know, a cascading effect into every realm of society, but most specifically the realm of public policy.
Yeah.
And so talk about the church going woke.
You have been an outspoken critic of this trend and about how, you know, the church is increasingly embracing deconstructionist postmodern ideology.
This is a major concern for believers.
It certainly is for me.
What's your take on that?
Yeah, you know, if we lose our ability to tell the truth, then we have lost the only platform that matters.
And we are in an ideological conflict over what will be defined as true and who gets to determine the parameters for understanding truth, both scripturally, sociologically, biologically.
It's really a war over epistemology.
And, you know, for me, we have just determined that even in a place like the Northwest, which is like to the left of the, you know, People's Republic of North Korea, we have just made the decision that we are not going to go in the same direction as some of these religious organizations that have really become just echoes of whatever is culture's most popular heresy at the moment.
Yes.
And, you know, in the Northwest, I mean, we're just flooded with kind of these therapeutic, deistic, you know, religious organizations that are shells of their former selves that have just become echoes of whatever our Babylonian culture is communicating.
And if there has ever been a time to tell the truth, it's now.
And if we can't, if we can't find the courage to tell the truth, then we're in the wrong business.
And so, you know, for me, it's, it's kind of, it reminds me of Reagan's, I think it was his gubernatorial acceptance speech or whatever, but he talked about the need for bright, bold contrast.
And for me, it's like, I'm not going to use ambiguity as a church growth strategy.
Like we're going to be clear about what we're about.
We're going to be clear about what we're for, but I'm unashamed of the gospel.
I am unashamed of the truth claims of scripture.
I am unashamed of the sexual ethic of the New Testament.
I'm just, I'm just unashamed to believe that what the Bible says is true and that we are messengers of the gospel.
We are not editors of the gospel.
And so, you know, and what we found is that message is actually really attractive to a whole lot of people who are fed up with watered down, you know, culturally relevant, you know, teaching that has in many ways harmed people in their ability to develop in a Christological fashion.
Okay.
So what are you seeing with younger pastors in particular?
Now, you know, we're, we shouldn't judge or stereotype, but Russell, if I see you walking on the side of the street, I'm like, that guy's a wokey.
I mean, you got the whole thing, you got the glasses, you know, you dress the part, but you're not.
You preach the gospel beautifully, word for word, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, I should say.
And so, but what are you seeing with some of these younger pastors?
I have to be lectured by pastors telling me that white people are evil and that we need racial reconciliation seminars and that America is a terrible country.
And you're standing athwart that.
What are you seeing with this kind of move of woke younger pastors?
And how are you confronting that?
Yeah, this is certainly a time for choosing.
And I feel like in many ways, the church in the West is in a valley of decision moment.
And it's kind of like choose this day whom whom you will serve.
And, you know, I feel like my job is to, in a lot of ways, equally irritate people on all sides of the political paradigm.
And so I try to do that pretty faithfully, you know, but the reality is you're right.
I easily get typecast as a certain type of person or ascribing to a certain type of ideological bent because of the age I'm at, the way I look in the area that I live in.
And so, you know, for me, it kind of is just this reminder that, you know, we've got the opportunity to, you know, be a light set on a hill for all men to see.
The Apostle Paul says the church is the pillar of truth in society.
We owe the culture an encounter with truth.
This is not just about, you know, assaging people's, you know, dysfunction as they slip into a Christless eternity.
No, we owe the culture an encounter with truth.
And part of that encounter with truth looks like a well-developed worldview by which you are not worshiping at the altar of intersectionality, postmodernism, or this idea that everybody gets to really pick their own truth and whatever they say is true, you have to cower to.
And so I think that there is this kind of dividing moment.
I think we're in the middle of two dueling revivals, a revival of righteousness and a revival of iniquity.
And I think that they will grow together like the wheat and the tares until the end times.
And so, you know, we're definitely in this interesting cultural moment, but the contrasts are growing more stark than they have ever been before.
And it's similar to the political moment we're in.
You know, the conversations we're having politically are not the arguments over policy that separated the Democrats and the Republicans in the mid-90s, you know, where Gingrich is speaker of the house and, you know, we're developing kind of these ruling coalitions of co-belligerents who are working together to, you know, flesh out nuanced policy on taxes and social safety nets.
You know, the political moment that we're in is eerily similar to the religious moment that we are in.
And the contrast is growing greater than it has ever been.
And this is a time for choosing.
This is a time for people to figure out what they believe, what they're willing to go to the cross for, what they're willing to be known for.
And ultimately, you have to crucify your need to be liked by people who don't share your values because we will not make it where we are going unmarked by this cultural moment.
Choosing to Stand Against Culture 00:02:17
You know, they try to cancel me twice a week.
We've got letters from the governor, the attorney general, the health district trying to shut us down.
Antifa made threats to burn down our building.
You know, we eat this stuff for breakfast and I consider it actually a validation that we are in the right direction and we are right over the target.
And so for me, I just, I refuse to adjudicate the integrity or the success of what we are doing based on the blowback of people who hate the gospel and are going in the opposite direction of us.
And so, you know, the gospel in many ways, it functions as an abrasive force.
It is the opposite of the way that culture is going.
And so we are going upstream, culture is going downstream.
And so, you know, I think for me, that has been maybe the biggest learning curve over the last two years is that I have to develop the ability to see my life through the lens of Christ, understanding that he was the most loving person on earth and they still killed him.
And so if I am adjudicating my success based on the complements of woke culture, then my value system is upside down.
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Ultrasound Ministry Saves Lives 00:03:43
So, Pastor, how's your church growing and going?
You take a stand against the culture.
Are you seeing an increase in attendance and membership?
Yeah, you know, over the last two years, we've grown about 5X and we run between 2,500 and 3,000 on a Sunday.
And so, you know, we've just been a lot of times hanging on for dear life.
You know, following God is like being on a roller coaster filled with unexpected turns and twists.
And, but I feel like in a lot of ways, people are resonating with, you know, the message that we communicate.
And the central message that we communicate is that our nation is in need of an unmitigated outpouring of God's spirit like never before.
And that if people return to right relationship with God in their hearts, watch what this does for the culture, for the nation, for the public policy dialogue, for legislation.
Watch what it will do when people get right with God.
And so, you know, we're just unapologetic, we charismatic, we wild, we're loud, just go for it.
But, you know, I think people respect the conviction that we carry, even if they don't always agree with the positions we take.
And, you know, for me, I feel like we're living in an era where there is a crisis of conviction.
There's a lack of it.
And if you just operate with it, you know, you're going to get love and hate.
But ultimately, people are going to respect that you're willing to take a stand and then take shots for it and then keep taking a stand.
So that's what we're doing.
So what do you have to say to pastors that say we're, you know, we're here to affirm people and we're here to make people feel good?
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the quick path towards spiritual irrelevancy.
And, you know, Christ has not come to affirm our dysfunction, but instead to transform our lives.
And we owe people as spiritual leaders and as pastors, you know, one day I'll stand before a holy God and I'll give account for the way that I've shepherded people.
And so it's my conviction that I ought to do that well.
And I don't always get it right.
But my God, I think, you know, we're in an era where we are more interested in not offending and affirming dysfunction and darkness than we are helping people grow, develop, and be transformed.
And, you know, we have these arguments like, well, I was born this way and I was born that way.
And, you know, scripture says, yeah, but you must be born again.
You must have a regenerative experience in your life and in your heart.
And, you know, for me as a pastor and as a leader, that's ultimately what keeps me up at night is a passion for people to really know and experience the transformative power of Jesus Christ.
And when that happens in their life, it creates pathways because the truth is what makes men free.
It creates pathways towards people's epistemology being developed by Christ.
And in doing so, watch how they value things like life and family and marriage and so on and so forth.
So, you know, I am not, you know, a Christian because I'm conservative.
I am a Christian and that theological framework is what in my mind propels me towards believing in and advocating for conservative public policy, especially as it pertains to the family issues.
And I just feel like, man, we do such a great disservice to people.
We just do such a great disservice to people when we are afraid to tell them the truth.
So in closing here, what is the significance of Christmas?
It is Christmas week and I think people miss it.
Christmas Truth During COVID 00:03:14
It is.
It's not just happy holidays.
It is Merry Christmas.
And not only are we putting the Christ back in Christmas, we're putting the Christ back in Christian.
And so we're working on both end.
But the significance of Christmas is that in the fullness of time, God sent a man born under the law to redeem those who are under the law, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
And the significance of Christmas for me is that Jesus didn't stay in a manger.
He didn't stay on the cross.
He didn't stay in the grave.
And he's not staying in heaven forever.
And there will come a day where every man, woman, or child stands before God and gives account for their lives.
And for the rest of my natural life, I'm giving my time, talent, treasure, and influence to announcing that the kingdom of God is here because the king is here.
And in doing so, we owe our entire lives and allegiance to his Lordship.
And so we love Christmas and we are celebrating here in Seattle.
We got hit by a snowstorm actually yesterday.
That's unusual, isn't it?
It is.
It is unusual, but we're excited and we're just believing God for good things.
Amen.
Russell, thank you so much.
Look forward to meeting you sometime soon.
Merry Christmas.
Appreciate it.
Thanks, boss.
Thank you.
Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.
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With us right now is a friend of mine, someone I wish I could have had on the show during AmericaFest, but it was a complicated time.
He gave a great speech and he was one of the leading apologists for the Christian faith on the planet, Frank Turek.
Frank, welcome back to the program.
Charlie, always great to be with you.
I'm amazed you're awake right now after those four days of on Charlie.
I know a lot of your listeners or viewers have probably seen some of America Fest, but it literally was the best conference of any kind I've ever been to.
It was such a blessing to see a strong Christian like you insist on excellence from top to bottom.
And you did.
It was a wonderful conference.
And I know not everyone, every speaker was a Christian, Charlie, but what a great witness for you to put out such an amazing, professionally run conference.
And I've never seen so many young people who were so well put together, so professional and so polite all in one place.
It's a credit to you and your entire organization.
Thank you, Frank.
The Resurrection Fact 00:14:57
That touches us.
And we're going to make next year even better because we have a list of improvements to try to continue to pursue excellence, which I believe that pursuing excellence for the right reasons is worship, is actually glory to God.
And that is a deep topic we can explore.
That's right.
But thank you.
That's a very sweet compliment and it really touches me.
So, Frank, you have a wonderful organization called Cross Examined.
And this week, the Christmas week, it seems the secular world makes Christmas overly materialistic and on things that really don't matter, that are temporal.
But there is a very trans there's a transcendent and deep meaning to Christmas.
What is that meaning, Frank?
The meaning is that the Son of Man, Jesus Himself, added humanity to his deity to take the punishment for the wrongs that we have committed on himself.
Jesus said the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.
Now, Charlie, many of the topics that you deal with on your program every day deal with morality and immorality.
In fact, if we think about this, what politics is, is basically putting morality or unfortunately immorality into civic law.
So we as Christians, you just read a great piece there about trying to save babies from abortion.
We as Christians believe that that's one thing that we need to do in politics.
We need to protect innocent life.
And yet, people on the other side of the aisle, Charlie, will say, well, they have a moral right to choose an abortion.
Well, notice that both sides are arguing from a moral position.
The question is: what is the standard by which we can judge what is right and what is wrong?
And my point here is that regardless of what side of the aisle you're on this issue, I think it's quite clear.
You don't take the life of an innocent human being, but let's just leave that aside for a second.
Both sides are claiming some sort of moral high ground.
Well, moral high ground can only exist in an objective way if God exists.
And everybody, regardless of what you believe, has in some way violated that moral high ground.
In your personal life, somewhere, you've done it.
And if God is infinitely just, and he is, the only way he can allow you and me into his presence for all eternity is to punish an innocent substitute in our place, because we need punishment if he's infinitely just.
And that's what he does at Christmas.
He brings himself into this world.
And after 33 years, he goes to the cross to pay our punishment by himself.
That's what Christmas is all about.
So there are a lot of different religions in the world.
And one of the pieces of disagreement I get is they say, Charlie, all religions basically have the same story.
That's not true.
Christianity is unique in that it is the divine coming down into the flesh.
In Eastern traditions, they view the flesh as dirty, broken, that you transcend out of your flesh.
The idea of God becoming man is a foreign concept to far Eastern religions.
Talk about the significance of that and how that is almost a concept too big for the human mind to even comprehend that a perfect and holy God would take the form of a broken creature.
Yeah, well, he took the form, he took human nature, but his nature wasn't broken like ours.
That's why the virgin birth is such an important concept in Christianity, a doctrine in Christianity.
Actually, it wasn't the virgin birth.
It was the virgin conception.
Jesus was not conceived by a man.
He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, which means somehow he didn't get the sin nature.
Sorry, guys.
It appears that the man transports the sin nature to his offspring, but Jesus didn't have that sin nature because of the virgin birth.
So while he was 100% human, he did not have the sin nature we have.
That's how he could be our sacrifice.
And I love it, Charlie, when people say, oh, yeah, all religions teach basically the same thing.
They all teach ought to love one another.
What I say to that is, well, that's actually not true.
There are some religions that don't teach you to love one another, like extreme forms of Islam.
But let's leave that aside.
Let's just say for the sake of argument, that's true.
They all teach you how to love one another.
They only differ on the nature of man, the nature of God, sin, salvation, heaven, hell, and creation.
Outside of that, they're exactly the same.
They're fundamentally different, Charlie.
And the biggest difference between Christianity and every other world religion, other than the fact that Christianity is 100% true, is the fact that instead of us trying to work our way to God, which is what other religions do, God works his way to man.
He comes down to earth.
He takes humanity onto his deity and he pays the price for us.
We don't work in order to win brownie points with God.
He does all the work for us.
So it's also his birth could go down as one of the most significant events in human history.
If not, I mean, the resurrection would probably be even more significant.
However, in some Christian circles, Christmas gets more reverence than Easter.
I don't think that's appropriate.
I think part of it is unintentional just because the culture is just so overwhelming in this time of year of end of year and family.
How should we as Christians, what should we do different or how should we honor the gift that is Christmas?
Well, I think we have to recognize that the ultimate gift is Jesus because he is the one who saves us from the evil that we have done, regardless whether you consider yourself politically a Republican, Democrat, Independent, or something else.
Every one of us have committed sins.
We haven't even lived up to our own standards, Charlie, much less God's perfect standard, right?
So we ought to, with reverence, thank God that he actually came to save us because we look, there's only three things you can get in life.
You can get justice.
That's getting what you deserve.
You can get mercy.
That's not getting what you deserve.
Or you can get grace getting what you don't deserve.
I don't know about you, Charlie, but I certainly don't want justice.
I don't want justice because if I get justice, I get punished.
I don't just want mercy.
I don't just not want to get punished.
I want grace.
I want a gift.
And that gift is eternal life with Christ himself and with my loved ones who have also accepted the free gift.
So you said that we know Christianity is true.
This is one of your areas of expertise.
How do we know that the birth of Christ is true?
I've never heard you talk about this, Frank.
Well, you mean the virgin birth?
Either the virgin birth or what we consider to be the nativity story as told, you know, in most detail in the book of Luke.
Well, what we tend to do is we tend, as all historians do, is we, if we can find a particular author true on certain accounts we can verify, then we can assume he's probably telling the truth on accounts we cannot verify.
And scholars have looked into Luke with extreme detail.
In fact, Sir William Ramsey, one of the top archaeologists of all time, started to investigate Luke, thinking he would find that Luke was in error in many places.
After 20 years of traveling through the Mediterranean, Sir William Ramsey said Luke is an historian of first rank.
In fact, he said that Luke named something like nine islands, 54 countries, and 32 different aspects of topography.
He got it all correct, Charlie.
And that was before Google Earth or the internet.
He got all of this correct.
So if we can trust him on these things we can verify, can we trust him on things we cannot directly verify?
And I think the answer is yes.
And Luke was a doctor who was sponsored to do this by Theophilus, which probably was a filler word, lover of God, right?
But we'll talk about this in the break.
Luke had, we don't, unless you can tell me, I can't really recall his personal biography.
He just seemed to be almost the equivalent of hiring somebody to go figure out what's going on and then write back to it.
And he also wrote the most of the New Testament, even more than Paul, if you count the book of Acts.
Yes, he wrote Acts to excellent Theophilus, and so did he wrote Luke as well.
And he says in the first section of his gospel, I checked all these things out with eyewitnesses.
So Luke is writing an historical account, and he's very accurate.
He's proven to be, Charlie.
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Back to Frank Turek.
So Frank, let's talk a little bit more about the objections.
You know, some people will say that the Bible is not true and that there are contradictions or inaccuracies.
You hear all these objections.
Riff on this a little bit, Frank, for the doubters, the naysayers, or the skeptics in our audience.
I would say, Charlie, that the Christian story does not depend on whether or not there are contradictions in the Bible.
In fact, Christianity would be true if the Bible never existed.
People go, what?
What do you mean?
Because Christianity, Charlie, did not start with a book.
Christianity started with an event, the resurrection.
There would be no documents written down in the first century by Jews who thought they were God's chosen people.
There would be no books written down by these Jews in the first century who didn't think a man could claim to be God.
That would be blasphemy.
Who didn't think someone would rise from the dead in the middle of time?
These books would not exist, Charlie, unless a man actually did claim to be God and rose from the dead, because these Jews not only didn't believe this could happen, they lost everything by saying it happened.
They were kicked out of the synagogue and then beaten, tortured, and killed.
They did not make this up, Charlie.
They had no motive to make it up.
So I always ask people, I say, do you realize there were thousands of Christians before a line of the New Testament was ever written?
Yeah, why?
Because they either witnessed the resurrected Jesus or knew others who had.
They later wrote it down.
So it would be true regardless of whether or not there are contradictions in the scriptures.
The main point that everybody agrees on is that Jesus died and rose again.
If that's really true, Charlie, then Christianity is true.
We can argue about the details later, and we do in our book, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
But the bottom line is Christianity is true regardless of the Bible.
It's true because it really happened.
The event, the resurrection really happened.
Yeah.
And the event started with Jesus coming to earth.
Now they'll say, well, Charlie, I can't believe the virgin birth.
Your argument is if the creation story and the resurrection are true, everything else could be true.
Well, just if Genesis 1-1 is true, Charlie, and we even have atheists now admitting the data for evidence or for Genesis 1-1.
Stephen Hawking famously said, almost everyone now believes that the universe and time itself had a beginning at the Big Bang.
Now, Hawking, as you know, was a physicist and an atheist.
He didn't believe in God and he tried to come up with another explanation for the creation of the universe other than God.
He failed, but he's admitting the data, Charlie.
Look, if Genesis 1-1 is true, if God really created the universe out of nothing, then every other verse in the Bible is at least possible, including virgin births, including the resurrection of Jesus, including the parting of the Red Sea, etc.
So yes, the greatest evidence that we have for a miracle in the Bible, we can see through our telescopes.
And it's Genesis 1-1.
And this Christmas, we should remember the significance of that.
Any closing thoughts here, Frank?
Well, Charlie, the closing thought that I have is that the most important fact in the universe is that God exists and Jesus rose from the dead.
As C.S. Lewis famously said, if Christianity is true, it's of infinite importance.
If it's not true, it's of no importance.
What it cannot be is moderately important.
Look, we are all fallen.
We are all sinners.
Even as our political discourse shows, that's the case, regardless of what you believe.
You know, you haven't lived up to your own standards, much less God's standards.
And if God really came to earth, added humanity to his deity, and then took our punishment on himself, what could be more important than that, Charlie?
That's why I'm so excited of the work you're doing at TPUSA.
You're not just trying to save the country.
You're trying to save souls.
And you will not shy away from saying that, even in a crowd full of secular people.
So God bless you for that.
That's what we need to do.
Merry Christmas, Frank.
Thanks for joining us.
Everyone, check out Cross-Examined and his podcast, I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist.
God bless you, Frank.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email me your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thank you so much for listening and God bless.
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