Porn Culture and the Trans Agenda—Charlie Kirk vs. Buck Angel
Charlie Kirk goes one-on-one with Buck Angel, a transsexual man and former pornographic film actor, in a riveting debate about transgenderism and pornography in American society. From the negative impact of porn on the human brain to the pharmaceutical industry capitalizing on the trans movement for profit, Charlie lays out his case "against," while Buck Angel depicts his history of transitioning from a biological female to pornographic actor who performs as a male in his position "for." Buck argues that porn is not all bad and can actually be a positive, and in a bit of a contrarian position, he expresses his disconnect with the modern trans movement, especially as it relates to children. In a moment where the trans debate is captivating the nation with "Lea" Thomas, Admiral Levin and Charlie's own Twitter suspension over his commentary on the issue, this debate is more important and timely than ever. Please share this episode far and wide for a can't miss discussion that will inform, educate, and captivate. Credit to Debate Night with Charlie Kirk, originally produced byTurning Point USA Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Unfiltered Debate Night00:01:56
Hey everybody, happy Sunday.
My debate night with a trans porn person.
We talk about porn, we talk about trans issues, all sorts of different types of stuff.
Pretty unfiltered, rather respectful at times.
I don't think it gets disrespectful.
I do want to thank this person, Buck Angel.
Buck was decent and was kind, despite being involved in a degenerate lifestyle of being a porn person, which I find to be reprehensible.
So we talk about that.
I leave none of those feelings really unmentioned, but I wish this person well.
I do.
So email us your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
If you'd like to support our show, go to charliekirk.com slash support.
And if you'd like to get involved with TurningPointUSA, go to tpusa.com.
Turningpoint USA is what made this episode happen.
And so give your support to turningpointusa at tpusa.com.
That's tpusa.com.
Sort of high school or a college chapter today at tpusa.com.
You guys can get engaged and get involved.
Come to our young women's leadership summit at tpusa.com slash ywls, tpusa.com slash ywls.
Our tour is coming up in just a couple of hours.
tpusa.com slash tour.
I might be coming to a neighborhood near you, Arkansas, Auburn, many other places, tpusa.com slash tour.
Buckle up, everybody, here.
We go.
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campuses.
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
I want to thank Charlie.
He's an incredible guy.
His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
Gender Versus Biological Sex00:15:20
That's why we are here.
Welcome, Charlie Kirk and Buck Angel.
Thank you for coming.
Tonight's topic is going to be transgenderism in America.
You guys each have a few minutes to give your opening statements.
I'll start with Charlie.
Okay.
First, thanks for joining.
I'm not going to take the entire time.
I think it's pretty simple, my viewpoint.
I think there's only two genders, and I have sympathy for people that suffer from gender dysphoria and compassion.
And I think we'll explore that together.
And, you know, transgenderism, if you will, presupposes that there are two genders.
And I look forward to like learning your perspective on all of that.
But it's a serious problem.
And I think based on things you've said, we'll actually have some common ground on children and education and the entire kind of detransitioning movement that's happening right now because a lot of people have regret after undergoing that irreversible surgery.
But yeah, my position is pretty clear.
Your chromosomal makeup is very important.
I believe we should be grounded in biological and material reality.
And, you know, I believe that gender and sex are directly related.
And so I know I have more time to use, but I'm going to allow our guests to use that time up.
Right on.
First off, thanks for having me.
I really appreciate debates and I really appreciate these conversations because they will help us move forward.
So I'm pretty much on board with a lot what you said there.
I do believe in sex.
I believe in biological sex.
I am a biological female who decided that I felt male and wanted to look male and live in the world as male.
And as you see, I pretty much look like a man.
You pull it off.
But I am not a biological man.
So I am a biological female.
So that being said, that should also be understood in the sense that I am not trying to change biology.
What I'm trying to change here is a perspective that some people don't feel the way they were born to feel.
So what I'm trying to say is that, yes, biological sex is real and you cannot change that.
But what you can change is an appearance to look a certain way to walk the world as a happier person.
So I do believe that gender is something that can be performed, where I do not believe that sex is a performative space.
Okay.
So that leads me to our first question.
And you guys kind of answered this a little bit, but are gender and sex two different things?
And I'll start with you.
So gender and sex are two different things as far as I'm concerned.
And why I say that is because sex, you cannot change your biological sex.
It is not possible to do that.
I'm proof of that.
If you did my chromosomal test or all that, it will come back as a biological female.
What I did change is my gender and the way I look and the way I perform to the world.
So I think this tends to be a lot of the problem with what the rest of, I would say, the trans activists who I am, I don't really align with trans activism these days because I will say that I cannot change my biological sex, but I can change the way I look to the world.
So this is where I think that we're running into a problem and why people don't understand what I did is a thing to change and save my life.
Where I believe today in the new transgender world, we are saying that biology doesn't exist and anyone can be a woman and our man and those things.
And that's not true.
I do not believe that.
So I believe on some level, gender and biological sex can be separated, though I do understand why people like yourself or other people in the world don't understand that those things can be separated and that they are the same thing.
So you're a splinter against some of the transgender movements that we're seeing.
Yes, 100% I am.
So like the idea that men can become pregnant is not true.
And why I will say that is, yes, the kind of man that can become pregnant happens to be a man like me, which again, I'll go back to tell you, is a biological woman.
The only people that can get pregnant are biological women.
So anything other than that, you're lying.
It's a total lie.
So just so I understand how you describe yourself, and I'm not trying to be cruel.
You're wearing a costume.
That's right.
That's right.
Now, now, some trans people will be very offended by that.
I am not.
I'm not trying to offend you.
No, I know you're not.
And actually, that's why I'm sitting here, my friend, because I know that you want to have the discussion.
And maybe you want to understand me.
Doesn't mean that I might change your mind.
All I care about is respect.
That's all I care about.
And seeing that I'm trying to participate in the world.
Now, what I'm going to tell you is there are people in the trans community who are not participating in the world.
And they're creating lies and they're creating deceit in order for me, a person like myself, not to be able to move forward in the world.
And then people like yourself arguing, wait a minute, trans people aren't real.
Or I don't know if that's how you feel, but I see where you're coming from.
And you're saying, what's happening here?
Why are we denying biology?
That is something I will not be a part of.
Because if I wasn't a biological female, I wouldn't be a trans person.
Right.
Right?
Yeah.
So that's refreshing to hear because I kind of feel like I'm living in the land of the insane sometimes, right?
So do I, which, okay, so now that's a weird space for us.
Oh, yeah.
So we both agree with that.
So I guess, you know, and again, with the potential of stepping on landmines here, I might be imprecise with my language is, is it then the right thing to transition, right?
Because the data shows high suicide rates, regrets, people that say they want to detransition.
And again, I'm not trying to say you made a mistake.
That would be, you know, again, kind of harsh of me.
But what I would ask, though, is you look at all this data in front of you, 20% of trans youth attempt suicide in 2020.
I'm sure you might say it's because of bullying and other factors, but we can explore that.
But is that the right move?
Just because you feel something, should you do it?
That's right.
That's a great question.
So again, I don't speak for a whole community, right?
I speak for somebody who transitioned 29 years ago.
Okay, I didn't just transition yesterday.
I did it in a time when we didn't even have what we have today, right?
And I did it in a time where people thought I was a creepy weirdo freak and people tried to shut it down and people would not help me.
And somehow I found a way to transition medically, which means that I started taking testosterone.
I was the very first person to do that in Los Angeles, take testosterone.
And my doctor called me a guinea pig.
He actually called me a guinea pig because he didn't know what he was doing.
He had no clue, but he was willing to try to help me find this space.
And then I operated on myself, which I removed my breast so that I had a more male looking physique.
And then through that, I just decided that I wanted to look and live male.
So that being said, I think the problem here is that I'm a different type of trans person.
I'm a transsexual person.
So tell me the difference.
So the difference now today we have transgender, which is an umbrella term for different kinds of people, like non-binary, transmasculine, FTM.
There's all these different kinds of queer, queer, whatever.
There's this, they're making all these things up, which is fine.
I want to say that that's, but that does not represent me.
And so what happened?
I had a, I had like what I like to call a sex change, even though that's not possible.
It's what we called it.
So I wanted to look, I want to be you.
I want to look and be a man, but I'm not like you.
I'm a different kind of man.
That was the whole point of me transitioning.
Right.
So, but I guess the moral question is, should you just always do what you want to do?
So that going back to that question, no, I do not believe you should always do what you want to do if it in the long run is going to hurt you rather than help.
Now, me, it helped me.
I'm a successful person in the world.
I was, I attempted suicide.
I was a drug addict.
I was homeless.
I was prostituting.
I was doing all of these things to survive as a female, but I couldn't survive that way.
And now as a man, I live an amazing, beautiful life.
And isn't that what most people want to do?
No, sure.
And, you know, with the risk of calling it an exception, because I think we could explore that further and I think there would be other issues, is that there is a massive question of when do you restrain what you want for what might be good.
That's right.
And so let me just ask you a question.
I'm just curious.
You were at a point where I could not survive as a female in a female costume.
Is that there was nothing at your disposal?
Nothing.
So I would challenge that from a spiritual and also pragmatic way.
Again, with the risk of not actually living through that, I refuse to accept the premise the only way that one could deal with it is through castration.
Sure.
I can understand how you would think that because you don't live it.
No, no, for sure.
And I guess that's why I said the risk of stepping on that.
And again, I don't think every trans person is the same.
They're not.
And I'm going to go back to what you said earlier, detransitioning.
Okay.
Oh, my God.
As a transsexual man, it makes me sick to my stomach to see this.
I never thought of that ever.
The minute I transitioned, I never looked back and my life only got better.
So I start to look at why are young, these are all young women, mostly, right?
So young girls, biological women who have decided to do what I did, right?
Which is to take testosterone, masculinize themselves, have top surgery, and then within sometimes six months to a year are like, uh-oh, I made a mistake.
I'm going to tell you exactly why that's happening.
We have not put mental health care in the equation to transition.
So what we have is called self-ID.
You could today say, I'm a trans, I'm a woman and I want to transition.
You don't have to go to any therapy.
You don't have to see a doctor.
You can go on the internet and get your hormones and you can happily be on your way.
So, but let me ask you, I mean, as someone who's an outspoken member, and I know you say you're not part of the community, but of this decision.
Yeah.
I mean, don't you think that you have normalized this?
Yes.
Yes, I have for a reason because there are people like me.
Don't think that there are not people.
What percentage do you think that is?
Very small percentage that are like you.
That are like me.
That's why I'm sitting here talking about.
I'm hearing your nuance.
Because I don't think there's as many as we have today.
And that's why we have such a huge population of detransitioners.
I saw a group of 25,000.
That's correct.
Yes.
25,000.
So, does it concern you, though, that your advocacy over the last couple years?
I mean, I guess do you have any regret?
You're like, yes, maybe I lured people into this where they didn't really know what they were signing up for.
Thank you for saying that.
And I really live with that, you know, because I think to myself, did I do something to create the space that we're in now?
And then I have to say, no, I did not.
If people took my words out of context, that's not my favorite.
And you know what?
I think that's very fair.
You can't hold just an advocate accountable for everything.
Because I'm not sure.
You judge that to me all the time.
Of course.
And I truly try to live my life very authentically, if that makes sense.
Where I say, look, this is who I am.
This has saved my life.
I'm a, for lack of a better word, normal person on some level.
So what you're saying is that before the actual action of surgery happens, which is very serious, irreversible, you would say you first have to check a lot of boxes of therapy and all this.
It shouldn't be easy, on demand, or immediate.
No, it should not, my friend.
And that is one of the reasons, probably the number one reason we have so many people who are saying, uh-oh, I made a mistake.
Mental, look, I have a mental disorder.
I don't care what anybody says.
I have an actual mental disorder called gender dysphoria.
And when you take gender dysphoria off the table, which the trans community has done now and says you don't need dysphoria to be trans, wait a minute.
So you don't need cancer to have cancer?
Like, what are we doing?
But let me ask you one last thing.
And so it's just a thought exercise, which is: is the surge, and for you it was, but generally, should it become something that is so exceedingly rare?
For example, just because you want something isn't, it isn't always right.
So, like someone who has anorexia, you wouldn't give them liposuction.
I hope not, right?
But they would be demanding it.
That's right.
That's right.
They go to their doctor.
I feel fat.
Yes.
And so sometimes your mind can actually be misleading.
That's right.
It will be right for your body.
That's right.
That's mental health right there.
So why are we not going to the pinpointing the problem, okay, or the situation of trans is mental health?
No, I think that's right.
And if we are not dealing with it as a mental health problem and we're just saying you know who you are, that's what's going to cause the problem right there.
I'm just curious.
Do you think that if when you were just a biological female, not showing yourself as a male, do you think that if you had therapy and counseling, do you think that would have been potentially helpful before surgery?
Or do you think that's open?
Well, you know, again, I'm 59 years old, right?
So I was different.
Different.
In the 70s, I grew up in the 60s and 70s.
And I was a really, very sad child.
I really wanted to be a boy since I was a little kid.
My parents raised me as Buck.
I was totally a tomboy, right?
They called it a tomboy, right?
So that being said, no one knew I was a trans kid.
And I don't even think there are trans kids.
Speaking of kids.
Yes.
Let's move on to the next question.
Do you think schools should teach children about the option to transition to a different sex?
Why do you think this is being heavily pushed by some school districts across America?
It is really upsetting to me to see stuff like that happen in the school system.
Now, again, what age group are we talking about?
Elementary school, middle school.
Elementary school.
Okay, no.
I'm just going to say no right there.
Elementary school, no.
We should not be teaching kids about these things in a system where they're already just kind of growing up and learning things, right?
And they need to stay focused.
Yeah, kids are going to say they're trans, or they're going to say, I feel like a boy, or I feel like a girl, or I feel like an elephant, or that's very normal behavior for a child.
But to all of a sudden say when a child says they're a girl or a boy, do you immediately pinpoint it as trans with no mental health care or no system?
Because there's no system to put them through right now.
They immediately want to put them on puberty blockers.
That's right.
So as a person who doesn't believe every child says exactly what that child is feeling or knows, I disagree with that 100% because what you're doing is medicalizing a child from the age of eight years old, which means that child will be medicalized for the rest of their life.
So, I'm just curious, which is, you know, you've been an advocate in, or just an outspoken person in this space, is that it seems that your position on this is a vast minority position.
Yes.
Why do you think that is?
Oh, it's difficult.
I think because I'm older, and I think because I'm a little more grounded about who and what I am, and I think I went through a lot to get where I'm at.
And like I said, there are most definitely young people who feel like I do.
I don't doubt that in any way, shape, or form.
But I think the equation doesn't equal to what I did, which is which has saved my life, is to give, I'm going to keep going back to the same thing, mental health care.
You cannot just take something at face value.
Now, adults are doing it all the time.
I'm trans and I'm going to transition and I'm going to do.
I don't know if we can argue that with an adult.
An adult can make their own choice.
You know, I think that's, I think, I do think that if you have a 14-year-old that has irreversible surgery, and it is irreversible, by the way.
So, there's an argument that says this, an argument that says puberty blockers are irreversible.
That's not true.
They are reversible or irreversible.
They are irreversible.
I agree.
Totally.
Because you're blocking puberty.
Every person in the world has puberty, not just trans people.
So once you start blocking puberty, what happens there?
Your development, yeah.
Okay.
Your development.
I think we're going to probably have the same points on many things here.
Yeah, I mean, look, you self-identified that it is a mental issue.
The Ethics of Trans Surgery00:05:11
I get, I'll be very honest, attacked mercilessly by people by saying that gender dysphoria is even a thing, right?
Okay, that's fine.
Sure.
And so, but you openly admit that.
I guess here's just a general question: is that the trans population is exploding with young people?
Does that concern you?
Yes, it does.
So, of course, we do.
Because, look, I don't care if a kid wants to say they're black, blue, green, and L.
I don't care.
What I care about is medical transition.
Okay.
And so, what I mean by that is if a kid wants to idea as a trans person and go through school wearing boy clothes and dressing like a boy, go right do it, my friend, because you'll probably grow out of it later on.
But when a kid starts going and getting what we call top surgery at 20 years old and starts putting hormones in their body, every piece of that equation is irreversible.
Let's say today I decide that I want to go back to living as a woman.
Too late.
I'm going to be an ugly woman, first off.
Secondly, what am I going to do with my breasts?
I'm going to have to go get breast implants.
I'm going to have to go through a whole psychological space.
I don't even think I would make it, to be honest with you.
So, that's what people need to see.
And that's why I appreciate you having the conversation with me because just because I'm trans doesn't mean I agree with everything that's going on in the community.
So, like, for example, if you were a typical trans activist, which you're not, I would ask the question, what is a man?
That's right.
And the answer would be whatever I wanted.
Right?
And your answer is actually, well, no, it's XY chromosome and all that.
That's right.
Yeah, so I guess, let me ask you a question.
Why is it that so many trans youth try to commit suicide?
Well, okay, a lot of people try to commit suicide.
So if you're just going to.
It is disproportionate, though.
Well, I don't know.
In the LGBT community, I can tell you, gay people try to kill themselves at a high level.
Lesbian people try to kill themselves at a high level.
Bisexual people do the same thing.
I don't know if the trans community is actually bigger than the rest of the LGBT community.
So I'm going to say that I disagree with that on some level because, again, statistics.
Well, where are you getting the statistics from, right?
I can show you statistics that probably are different than your statistics.
Well, yeah, to be honest, they're actually from transgender advocacy groups.
Well, there you go.
It's coming from the actual group.
What about group?
What about a group that doesn't have anything to do with the transgender community?
Why don't they do that stuff?
So are you implying that the transgender groups have a vested profit interest to make it seem like it's a bigger problem than it is?
On some level, yes, I am.
100%.
And I don't, and I don't.
I'm all for being cynical.
And I don't disagree.
I was suicidal.
I tried to commit suicide two times.
I was put in a mental hospital.
Thank you, my friend.
But I'm not saying that it doesn't exist.
100% exists.
But what I'm also trying to say is just because a kid says they're suicidal does not necessarily mean transitioning them will stop the suicide attempts.
No, no, that's exactly right.
So that's where I think the other side, whatever side that is, and it's like all this, or the advocates are saying, hold on, if the surgery happens, all the problems will go.
But that's not true.
I can show you that through D-transitioners.
Read every D-transitioner story.
I cry.
I actually cry when I read those things.
I'm like, how are we letting this happen?
It's why I'm sitting in this seat today, because I don't want to see that happen.
It saved my life, my friend.
I'm here living the most amazing life I've ever lived.
That's what I want the world to see.
But I did it because I went through a program.
I went through a system.
I didn't just say I'm trans and I got surgery and I moved on.
And look, I'm not one to say you're wrong with that, by the way.
If I had a guest here and they said, you know, Charlie, I just decided to only eat carrots and it saved my life.
Like, okay, then you know what's best for you, right?
I suppose what we're talking about is societal prescriptions and public policy prescriptions.
So you would say, like, for example, the law that's being proposed in California that allows sexual reassignment surgery, no parental consent, taxpayer funded, big mistake.
Big mistake.
Big mistake.
And it's not the money, okay?
Again, it's not the money for me.
It's more the fact that they're not listening to people like myself who are older, more grounded, understand what's happening.
Even there are actual trans doctors who are disagreeing with this.
But our voices are so low in this space that we don't get heard because then I think, well, what is everybody getting out of this?
Why do they want so many people to transition?
So the answer is the pharmaceutical companies make a ton of money on this.
Of course.
It always comes back to the money.
Pfizer and pharmaceutical company make a ton of money on hormone blocks.
You know, I read in MarketWatch, which is what a website for stock, right?
It actually says in there, invest in trans surgery.
It's going to be a $5 billion.
Unbelievable to me.
I'm like, oh, hold up, people.
Wait a minute here.
I am not a commodity and I am not that that space.
That is disgusting.
We are literally 0.5% of the population.
Really, think about that.
Trans people are so small.
How are we so powerful in the conversation right now?
And how are we saying there are so many trans people?
How are we doing this?
And why are what's the agenda attached to that?
So do you think that do you think more people are then becoming kind of captured into the transgender lifestyle because there is a campaign to recruit them or to persuade them they actually might be transgender?
So both.
I think on some level, social media plays a huge, huge part.
Go just go to TikTok and you can watch youngsters.
These are young kids, like 14, 15 years old, having surgeries and dancing around showing it off.
We never did that.
Redefining Masculinity Today00:06:01
Where I came from, you hid it on some level and you just want to.
Do you think that's better to hide it?
Yeah, on some level, because I just want to be a man.
I don't want to be, I'm not a trans person.
Like, you're not trying to just be an activist to persuade more people.
No, I want to, it's, again, I'm always going to go back to the same thing.
It saved my life.
I want to be a man and I want to walk the world as a man.
That's a transsexual person.
I want to be part of what you're doing, you know, even though I'll never be you.
Are there inherent advantages to being a man?
Are there inherent advantages to being a woman?
And Charlie, I'll let you start.
Well, I mean, I think that there's female privilege right now in America, and I've said that for a while.
Men are more likely to die at work, more likely to die of drug overdoses, more likely to go to war and die for the country, more likely to commit suicide, more likely to be homeless.
Women comprise most college graduates, most master's degrees, most doctorate degrees.
Women are less likely to go bankrupt.
They're less likely to die in car accidents.
They're less likely to do all these sorts of different things.
And we are seeing an emasculation of the American male.
But yeah, there are advantages depending on what your particular skill set, whatever your passion might be.
For example, it is just biologically easier to be a laborer as a man than it is a female.
And women are also wired to be nurturers and teachers more so than bricklayers or Marines.
Right.
Well, that's true.
And I think what you're what you're, but that being said, I lived half my life as a woman.
So I have actual experience of living in the world as a woman.
And I can say now as a man, holy moly, my life has changed.
I get so many different things.
I can walk through the door and have a lot more.
You're not going to experience that because you were really born into that.
You walk into it and you don't ever even see that.
So give me an example of that.
So I'll give you an example.
Let's talk about dinner and we're going out to dinner.
And I'm always getting the check now.
I never got the check before.
You got to pay.
I have to pay.
That means it's harder to be a man.
On some level.
So it's more expensive.
It's more expensive to be a man.
There are different ups and downs.
Where's the advantage to that?
Well, the advantage for me is that people see me as a man.
So it's important that people are.
So they expect you to pay for that.
They expect me to pay for it.
So I pay for that privilege.
For me, that's privilege.
It means that they see me as a man.
You see, that's a big deal for me.
Now, going back to the statistics of being male and female, so I think that men, it's easier on some level to walk through the world as a man than it is to walk through the world as a woman.
I mean, I can just say for me, it's just easier for me.
And I see more advantage and more privilege that I get to just be this male and not be questioned on certain situations.
Whereas a woman, I would be pushed to the side or I wouldn't get to have the conversation.
I don't think that's right.
Well, I mean, that's okay.
You don't have to, and you won't have that same experience that I have.
No, that's definitely true.
I'll never have that.
You'll never have that experience.
But does the data compel you based on income levels, graduation, you know, suicide?
I think women are definitely being beaten.
They're doing better.
100%.
There's no doubt about that.
We can't argue.
Why do you think that is?
Well, I think because women are speaking up for themselves.
I think women are speaking up and saying, wait a minute here, we're part of the population.
We should be able to do these kinds of things.
And women, I think, before didn't get the opportunity to speak up for themselves.
Where I think now they get to speak up for themselves and men are respecting that.
I just want to say that.
Sexism goes both ways, right?
Of course.
You have to be sex against a woman, but I mean, you look at Family Guy or The Simpsons.
What's the archetype when you think of a regular suburban man?
Well, right.
Overweight, clumsy, unable to get their thoughts together, sitting at home and drinking beer.
But that's not true.
No, it's not true.
But what's the caricature of most women on television?
Career-oriented, boss babe, private investigator, queen Latifah.
You know what I mean?
So you kind of like balance those two things.
And that plays out in certain ways, which I think is the emasculation, the emasculation of the American male.
Well, on some level, there is that.
And because when I transitioned, I wanted to be very hyper-masculine, right?
I really went for that masculinity.
I really wanted people to see me as that.
Why?
Why was I so obsessed with being this very masculine sort of space?
Which I do agree on some level, we are being attacked as masculine men.
I get attacked all the time from the trans community.
You're heteronormative.
I don't even know what that means, heteronormative.
Or I'm, you know, I guess that I'm playing into this role playing of being a man.
But to me, that's not role-playing.
To me, it's what I feel the most comfortable being and how I want to walk the world.
But I do think masculinity is under attack on some level as a bad thing.
And so I don't think masculinity is a bad thing at all.
So let me ask you: when you identified as a woman, and I would argue you've never stopped being a woman, but that's not trying to offend you by saying that.
Was when you were trying, when you were feminine, were you just unhappy?
Oh, God, I was, you know, and I was very much a very butch woman, right?
And I identified as a gay woman, and I was an athlete, you know, that very stereotypical, athletic, butchy girl.
So I was very unhappy.
And because as a child, my parents really did raise me as a boy.
They very much were okay with me being a tomboy because pretty much everyone thinks you're going to grow out of it, right?
And eventually you'll just be a girl.
And so I tried to be a girl.
I was a fashion model.
I traveled the world as a female fashion model.
I did all it just something in my gut just was not there.
And I did not feel comfortable when people would say, oh, you're so beautiful.
Or, wow, what a great woman you are.
I just was like, it just, it just rubbed me the wrong way.
It's hard to explain to somebody who doesn't really experience that dysphoric space.
Do you think, so let's say that next person exists now, right?
Yeah.
And do you think that there is the breakthroughs through therapy or psychological that might have prevented you from having to go through?
Like, do you think there might have been some repressed childhood issues that could have been possibly addressed versus a surgical issue?
Possibly, but you know, I didn't, I didn't do my surgery until my early, late 20s, early 30s.
So it wasn't that I was just going into it.
I did 10 years of therapy.
The world was a lot different.
I did 10 years of therapy.
So you would go to therapists, and like, I'm not trying to prime your private life, but you would say, look, I think I'm a man.
I want to be a man.
Dysphoria and Procreation00:15:04
Yes.
And every therapist would say, no, you're not.
You're a very masculine woman, every single one, until I finally found a therapist who was brand new.
And I said to her, I sat in that office for five days for five times.
I would go there so like scared to say it because I knew they were going to shut me down.
Finally, when I said, you know, I feel like a man, and it was like magic.
She said to me, I know.
And then that she's the one who basically helped me try to figure out how can I live in the world as a man 29 years ago.
So I do think on some level, people like me are real.
We are.
Look at me.
But I also think on some level, there is something today that's happening to push too many people into this space that should not be pushed into this space.
What are your thoughts on pornography?
Does porn desensitize?
Should it be banned altogether?
Do you believe it has a negative effect on relationships?
Is there such a thing as a positive effect to be had by porn consumption in society?
And I'm going to let Charlie start with this one.
Yeah, porn is awful.
I mean, it's a poison.
It's arsenic.
It's a cancer on society.
I do want to give you an opportunity to introduce your background in that if that's okay before I go any further.
So yes, I started my career in the pornography business.
So I was the very first transsexual man to are you still active in that industry?
I produce products now.
I don't produce pornography.
I produce toys, what we call sex toys, or products that help people kind of connect to their body.
Do you have any regret of your time in the pornography industry?
No, not at all.
Not at all.
And so I think here's where we're going to probably have different opinions about that space.
I personally, I make adult entertainment.
So this is where this is the problem.
So in the world now, we have what's called the internet, which screwed up everything, not only pornography, but it gives access where access should not be.
And so now kids have access to pornography.
And so as an adult, I think as an adult, I should be able to make whatever I make and I should be able to make it for you or whoever wants to watch it.
As adults, we're consenting.
It's totally, if you don't want to watch it, don't watch it.
If you do, you have the opportunity to do that.
Now, for me, the problem is kids.
And the problem is the youth looking at these things as sex education or as a means in a way to sort of understand how to do things.
And I don't agree with that.
And I do not think pornography should be accessible to youngsters at all.
At all.
Do you think it's a moral problem?
Moral, I don't think so.
What I think is that it's a problem to do with money.
Again, it comes back to money.
So the more money these places make, they don't have any more morals and they don't have any more space because they're just wanting to make money.
And that's really what pornography is about.
Pornography is about making money.
That's all it is.
I'm in that industry.
I understand it.
It's all about the dollar, nothing else.
But you know, what you just said is not realistic.
14 and 15 year olds are accessing whatever content you publish.
That's what I'm saying.
And I don't think that's okay.
I do not think that's okay.
And I talk to my industry all the time about how can we build a space where children, because 14 and 15 are children, should not be accessing pornography.
But like, let's say even 19 year olds.
That's still, to me, a child on some level, but it's not.
They're an adult.
They're an adult.
They can make their own choices.
Look, and I'm gonna, but I'm gonna be very honest.
Like with someone who's actually struggled with watching pornography before, like the fact you worked in the pornography industry, I look at you as like a sexual drug dealer.
That's okay.
Yeah, I see.
Like you're producing content that will kill people.
Well, I don't agree with that.
Depression, isolation.
They probably already had depression and isolation prior to the pornography.
Look, I'm going to say this as like from a personal perspective, it destroys lives.
It does.
Well, yeah, so do a lot of things.
So does alcohol.
So do cigarettes.
But this is a very particular.
Let's just focus on this, right?
So, but you go into it knowing that the people that we be consuming it will be less likely to be faithful to their wives.
That's not true.
That is not true.
That absolutely is true.
The stats around pornography are unbelievable.
But I can show you stats that show that's not true.
Number one, number two, those people already have that inside of them.
So I know many people who consume porn who have no issues at all and are perfectly no issues that you know, but this goes back to should you do what you feel is right.
And the answer is no.
If you're an adult, I think you should be able to make choices that really reflect to your own space, right?
So that's why I said transitioning.
If you're an adult who's transitioning, I'm going to tell you you should slow down a little bit and you should take your time.
But as an adult, that's all I can say to you as an adult.
So you think if an adult is addicted to pornography, no problem.
Well, addiction again.
So that word addiction really is very powerful and it can mean a lot of things.
What does it addiction means you're going on there 24-7 and you're looking at it and you can't get off and once a day, twice a day, 500.
So that being said, how many people within that space, and is it men?
Is it women?
When you shoot the film, you know it could ruin a 16-year-old's life.
Well, I don't think it's a good idea.
It's like when you create a fentanyl pill, you know it could kill somebody.
Well, that is a whole other argument.
That being said, no, I don't think that when I make pornography.
I've had so many people tell me, thank you.
So, wait, hold on.
Yeah.
What good does making pornography do?
Like, what?
Yeah, that's a great question.
So, for myself, I can only speak about my own work.
For myself, what I did is I created a space to celebrate my body sexually.
I was not sexually connected to my body, which is hurtful for me.
And I could not have relationships.
I could not do any of that.
The pornography actually helped me connect to my body, make me feel very handsome or beautiful in my body and felt needed in my body.
I have lots of trans people and outside of the trans community tell me, thank you for your work.
It really validates me.
We quickly went from you had to have surgery to survive to now you had to have sex on camera to survive.
No, it wasn't for survival.
You said happiness.
I didn't say survival.
I said, no, it made me feel better about myself and it made other people feel better about themselves.
So the thing is, this, you have the opportunity to watch porn or not watch porn.
That's how I look at it.
Sort of.
Yes, of course.
But when you're 17 and you get addicted to something from an industry that's a mistake or 18 or 19 or 20 or married couples that get targeted with these things.
Yes.
And I get the thousands of emails from our listeners of young men that are struggling with these things.
They struggle.
I know.
Millions.
But it's the industry that normalizes.
And the numbers are unbelievable.
Well, that's, but why?
But why?
Because we've normalized pornography because people produce the film.
Not only that, but there's something innate inside of us that wants to see sexual images.
Right.
That's that's a real thing.
We shouldn't do everything we want to do.
Okay, right.
That was good.
I'll give you that one.
Right?
So, so, so, do you know what we call civilization?
Restraining ourselves from doing the things we always want to do.
Okay, that's fair.
That's what civilization does.
But at the same time, pornography makes some people happy.
Now, it doesn't make everyone happy.
It makes them happy.
No, I'm going to disagree with you.
So, let me ask you a question.
Yeah.
Are heroin addicts happy?
Yeah, I know some heroin addicts who are totally happy.
100%.
Yes, I do.
They totally know what they do.
They use the drug.
They're totally functioning.
They move forward.
I don't agree with it, but they do it.
They love it.
They're totally.
I think the vast majority of heroin addicts.
Not the vast majority of heroics.
So that's good.
Now we're talking vast majority of heroin addicts.
Are totally slung out on the street.
Horrible, horrible.
Heroin and pornography attack the brain exactly the same.
Same dopamine manipulation.
Yeah, okay.
Same fake rushes of endorphins.
Endorphins.
So it's the same sort of rush to have to find something more extreme.
So does fitness.
Fitness does the same thing.
So you're going to the gym every day.
I'm like, the difference is you get healthier.
That's not necessarily true.
No, you know, uh-uh, that's not true at all.
You're making an argument that going to the gym as harmful as no, because you asked me heroin, then pornography, and now I'm using fitness as a dopamine.
When something is giving you that dopamine runch, you can't do that.
That's not a healthy dopamine rush.
No, because then you start using steroids and then you start trying to make yourself that much bigger.
Let's talk in world reality.
Yeah.
Do you really think America has a fitness addiction problem?
Oh my God, of course they do.
You think we have a bigger fitness addiction problem?
No, not bigger.
That's not what I said.
It's not even in the same universe.
It is a definite problem.
I think people do become close.
But that being said, I disagree with you on the point.
We have an obesity problem in our country.
We don't have a cross-country.
It doesn't mean those people aren't going to the gym.
Okay, again.
But I'm asking you: so, the argument you're making, pornography can make people happy in the moment, therefore moral good.
Well, my morals and your morals could be different.
Morals aren't just moral.
Everyone's moral.
No, of course they are.
Yeah, that's that's we have different morals.
No, no, no.
Hold up.
No, we don't.
Well, I'll prove it to you.
Want me to prove it to you?
Okay, sure.
You don't think kids should watch pornography?
No, I don't think kids should.
Why?
Because I don't think it's for children.
Why?
Because I think that children need to learn about sex through a way that is.
Why protect children?
They're humans.
Well, because children need guidance.
Why do you say that?
Where do you go to?
Because I'm a parent.
There you go.
That's where your morality comes from.
That's right.
Material reality.
But it doesn't mean that we have the same morals on everything else.
My point is: this is that we actually accept very similar types of moral premises.
We do.
Yes.
Objective truth.
Yes.
And guess what?
Showing people having sexual intercourse is really bad for people in society.
It just is.
Well, that's because you had a bad experience, but I don't know.
Not just me.
But I don't have a bad experience with it.
82% of young men are addicted to pornography.
But why is it men and not women?
But there's a fair amount of women as well.
But nowhere near the amount of kids.
If I have to dive into it, men have higher testosterone.
They look at sexual engagement.
But also, men are actually okay with watching porn or having sex because we're taught as men.
Men are taught to be much more promiscuous, much more open around sex.
Women are not taught that.
Women are taught not to talk about sex.
Women are taught not to masturbate.
Women are taught all the things that you as a man are taught, that it's okay to be sexual, that it's okay to do these things.
So that's why I think porn is more pinpointed towards men than it is to women.
They make porn for men.
Let me ask you a question.
You don't think men are biologically more predisposed to want to see visual stimulation versus testosterone for sure because mine changes.
It's biology.
Well, no, it's also testosterone because mine did change through testosterone.
The way I look at things, the way I'm doing it.
Women are not stimulated as much by that.
That's pornography.
But also, women are also not actually told that it's okay to watch these kinds of things.
Women watching porn is on the increase tremendously.
That's because they're making more porn for women.
Which is destructive to society in more ways.
Let me read some of these numbers.
Okay.
So depression and suicide.
Okay.
17% of sex addicts attempt suicide at some point in their life.
Okay.
Okay.
17%.
Depression ratios when respondents began watching porn was in the single digits.
It triples after they start watching porn.
A 2017 experiment showed that 14% of male students who watch porn more than three times a week reported depression.
Meanwhile, 2.8% of students who watch porn less than once a week experience depression.
That's a multiple chasm, huge.
And let me tell you why.
We know this in the biochemical literature.
Neurologically, when you start to all of a sudden addict yourself to a fake endorphin rush, which is pornography is so graphic, it's so real, you're going to want more.
It's the same as a heroin ad.
Do you know the problem though? Is with porn, it's so abundant that you can go deeper and deeper and deeper.
And next thing you know, it takes three hours for you to just get a little bit of stimulation.
That's true.
Which creates worse marriages, weaker families.
And you say you're a parent.
I mean, I don't know how old your kid is, but I can't imagine you would want the kid.
My kid doesn't know anything about that.
And I would never let my kid know.
That's what I said to you.
There are boundaries around children for.
But even when they're an adult, you don't think it would do damage to them?
No, I don't actually, because I have a healthy attitude towards it, I think.
I have a different attitude than other people do.
And I do think it's healthy to talk about sex.
And I do think it's healthy on some level not to get addicted to porn, but to even see the pornography.
I don't think that's a bad thing.
The addiction is the bad thing.
So you don't think sex should be sacred in private between two people?
Not necessarily.
Not necessarily so.
I think that people as adults can make their own choices.
No, no, no, no, that's not the point.
That's a different question.
In the ideal, should sex be sacred and private?
No, I don't think so.
Why?
Because I think that it's a fun thing, and I think that you can.
Oh, so we should do sex is fun.
We should do fun things.
No, trust me, I'm married.
I got that.
Sex is.
But the point is that we should do what's fun.
Well, we should do what makes us happy.
Should we?
Of course, when it comes to sex.
We should do what's right.
Well, what's right to you is going to be different than what's right for me.
So, why do we have speed zones outside schools?
We're talking about porn and sex.
Let me tell you why.
No.
Because we want to protect kids.
We're talking about sex right now.
We're talking about speed limits.
No, no, no, this is important because there's only one truth.
There's not my truth or your truth.
Whose truth is it?
It's the truth of the laws of nature and nature is God.
The natural law.
For example, force equals mass times acceleration, right?
And an object at rest will stay at rest.
For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.
So there's a certain hardwiring to the universe.
You can't escape it.
It's part of being reality.
Sex is a natural space.
It is actually something people enjoy doing as two people coming together.
It is not just about procreation.
In the ideal, that sexual engagement should be protected and conserved and should be sacred.
So let me ask you a question: things that are beautiful, should we make them everywhere always and dilute it or protect it for when it's most sacred?
That's just a general moral question.
Well, that just depends on what it is you're talking about.
I don't think you can say that as a blanket statement.
Of course, you can.
Well, I don't think so.
I disagree with that.
So, for example, right?
So, if sex is everywhere, doesn't it start to lose its meaning?
No, I don't think that's true at all.
You don't think so?
I think everyone goes into sex with a different attitude and a different way of being.
I don't believe everyone goes into sex as it's for this, this, this, or this.
And I think the same with masturbation.
People masturbate for different kinds of reasons.
People have sexual encounters for different kinds.
People cheat on their wives, cheat on their husbands for different reasons.
What use that word cheat?
Is there something wrong with being unfaithful to your spouse?
If it is not within the system of you and your spouse.
So, if you and your spouse say, We have an open relationship and I can go and have sex with whoever I want, that's between you and your partner.
Right, but I'm talking about generally more.
No, cheating, I don't believe in that because you're lying to your partner, and I don't believe in lying and deceit.
Do you think pornography makes cheating more abundant or less abundant?
No, I think that, again, it depends on the person, and it depends on the person going at the porn.
I don't think you can blame porn for all the problems in the world.
I'm saying that.
But I'm saying that yes is a drug to some people.
To tens of millions, the vast consumers.
But not to me.
It does not hold me that way.
It does not control the way I think.
It does not look at.
I'll be honest, it's your livelihood, though.
Well, not anymore, but it was.
You made money off it.
Yeah, I did make money off it.
It's a business.
It's an actual business.
It defined you.
On some level, it did.
Yeah, that's how I started my career for sure.
Okay, so the predation of potential people that are innocent.
So you know making those films that someone who is innocent could lose that innocence in that moment.
But what is innocence?
That's a good question.
What is it?
You know what innocence is?
No.
You're a nine-year-old not knowing what porn is.
That's what innocence is.
Well, that's true.
So that's why I don't make pornography for nine-year-olds.
It doesn't matter.
You know, it still seeps down to the middle.
No, it does not.
That's not true.
Well, maybe not nine-year-olds, 12-year-olds, 13-year-olds, 14-year-olds.
And whose fault is that?
Is that actually my fault?
Pornography Access Control00:02:17
It's the government's fault.
It's a lot of fault.
It's a lot.
The system.
If a magic wand was waved and all of a sudden all the pornography production was outlawed, you would have a lot harder time as a 14-year-old.
Oh, but the problem with outlawing pornography is what happens?
It goes underground.
And it's harder to find.
No, it is not harder to find.
That is actually not true.
Look at drugs.
You can actually go on the internet and buy drugs, heroin, cocaine, for NDA, all of it.
You can actually get it, even though those are illegal.
Drug rates have gone up the more decriminalization has happened in San Francisco.
That's, I believe, do you believe the government should ban porn?
Yeah, absolutely.
100%.
No, I don't.
Yeah, I mean, look, the society is falling apart.
Children are being preyed on every day.
It should, I mean, a middle ground should be behind age-authenticated, password-protected, credit card authorized, 25 years or older.
Extremely hard to find ways to get to it.
But that's not realistic.
It's not going to pass anytime soon.
But it's just a broader moral question of something that is so graphic, that is so predatory, and quite honestly, so harmful to humanity.
If we're not, as a society, willing to use our collective power to try and stop that, then I think it explains a lot of our other societal ills.
Well, yeah, I think everything is about money now.
So, you know, of course, if it's making money, the government is not going to get involved and stop it.
It's the same that's happening with trans stuff.
It's making money.
They're not going to stop it.
Money is what runs this country and pretty much the world.
So if you look at things, what's going to make money, people are not going to stop it.
Now, I definitely have a space where I'm telling you, I don't believe that pornography should be so accessible.
This is a problem I have as a person in that industry.
It's too accessible.
And so we, as a community in my business, need to understand that.
And we need to step up and be much more responsible for the way we are putting that out there.
So on some level, I'm a conservative pornographer where I do believe it's too accessible on many levels.
And how do we stop it from being so accessible?
There are people out there who don't care, who just go in the back room and make all kinds of nonsense and put it out on the internet.
So that I have to fight against those kinds of things.
Moral Views on Sex00:05:52
So I'm like in a really, really weird space where I do believe in pornography as a positive space.
But at the same time, there are bad people in my business who are doing things that are hurting people and are not positive.
So, you know, I'm in a, I'm in a weird, and it's the same way I feel about the trans world.
I'm in a very weird space there where I do believe there are real transactions.
It's like saying, you know, I'm going to keep on bringing heroin across the southern border, but I only want people that need it clearly.
Yeah, maybe you can look at it.
You know that all of a sudden a 14-year-old who broke his back is going to use the heroin and to try as a pain supplement.
Possible, yeah, possible.
Yeah, and so it's, it's that's what I'm saying.
I'm in a very weird space because as a person, I do believe pornography can be positive.
I also believe it can be negative.
I'm still, you're going to have to build out that argument.
Well, I don't know if we'll ever get there.
How can the filming of something that is so sacred and special and the widespread of it somehow not do damage to the brain of the recipient?
Well, the people I know who watch my pornography don't feel that way.
So I don't really know how to answer that.
The pornography you're watching and the things that you are talking about are not the same.
Hopefully that's and I could say people that are healed from that.
That's right.
And I'll be very honest.
I have a very hard time, and you're a nice person and all this.
I have a very hard time being okay with people in the quote-unquote industry.
Sure.
That have done that kind of business.
And that's okay.
I don't take offense to it at all, my friend.
You're totally entitled to have that opinion.
I disagree with you, and I will continue to do what I do.
And that's why we sit here because you have a different opinion about what I do in the world.
And that's okay.
I'm not fearful of it.
And nor do I angry at it or do I feel in any way disrespected.
I don't.
Because I actually value your opinion and I value the fact that that's how you think about it.
Because what that does is it makes me think about it.
So, I'm going to think about it in a different way now.
So, I'll summarize.
It doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to stop.
But restraining our impulses is what keeps civilization together.
We don't always get to do what we want to do.
That's true.
So, for example, I'd love to sleep 14 hours a day.
I'm hardwired for it.
Sure, me too.
But I got to get up six, seven hours.
That's right.
I'd love to eat chocolate cake every day and all that.
Can't do that.
That's right.
So, do you want to take chocolate cake off the table that no one can have it?
Is that what you want to do?
Well, I would definitely be open to trying to make America eat much healthier, but I don't think chocolate cake comes anywhere near to the sort of visceral chemical blitzkrieg that is actually.
But that's your experience with it, which is horrible.
It's not.
The data shows it's tens of millions of people.
If you talk to an average young man out there in an honest set of people, they will say they are depressed or anxious or suicidal, but they're not the number one feeling after watching pornography done by any psychological data is what?
Regret and shame.
People actually.
Why is that?
Why do you think?
Maybe because they shouldn't be doing it.
They know it.
Are they being told that?
Maybe deep in the human soul, they know what they just saw in their consumption.
But I don't feel that way when I watch it.
And many of my other friends and people that I know don't feel that way.
You got your own way of looking at the world, but that's what I'm saying.
So the vast majority of way of people, the vast majority of people, though, feel that kind of shame.
The people you know and the people you're around feel that way, which is.
Well, the clinical data shows that.
And that's okay.
That's what I'm saying.
Not everyone feels that way about pornography.
Not everyone thinks it should be taken out.
What we need to do is come to a space to understand why is it doing it to these young men?
It's true.
Most, they tried to do a study and they couldn't even do the study because all the guys had already watched porn.
So they couldn't even do a study on, that's right.
So I know that.
I'm very understanding that.
It attacks the gray matter in your brain.
Why is it so much that way towards young men and men?
Why do they feel this need to watch porn?
And because it's accessible?
Is that hardwired to try to look for visual stimulation?
Visual stimulation.
And it's accessible.
And also, they haven't been taught that it's wrong.
That it's wrong.
So there's.
Because it is wrong.
Well, I don't know if it's wrong.
You almost agree with me.
Right, And this gets into this.
Charlie, in recent months, you have popularized the phrase sexual anarchy.
Yes.
First, could you define that for the audience and then explain the impact it has on our society?
Yeah, so I coined the phrase sexual anarchy and actually from my friend Pastor David Engelhardt.
Yeah, look, it's sexual activity without restraints.
So the law, as we know it, and that's a bad term, but let's say rules, okay, is actually what keeps us free.
And so you know alcoholics.
I know alcoholics.
They're hardly free.
They do whatever they want to do whenever they're going to do it.
They might be fun, to use your term, but they're hardly free.
They become a victim to those vices and devices.
The same, I would argue, is in the sexual realm.
And I'm not trying to be a moralist by any means.
I admitted, you know, how this sort of nonsense damages young people and damaged me.
But I will say, though, on a very serious and real level, that if a society all of a sudden says we're not going to have virtuous or moral guardrails, then we become more depressed, unhappier, more anxious, more medicated, and more alcohol-addicted.
And so that's kind of a catch-all term for basically people saying, do whatever you want to do in the sexual domain.
And I'll go back.
It robs the innocence of children, which you do have a soft spot for, based on your commentary.
But more than anything else, I think it creates a society that decays from within, one that cannot control its sexual impulses.
You know, again, maybe.
I'm not really sure about that because I think we have a different experience.
So my experience is totally different than your experience around pornography.
And it probably because I'm around it more or the people that I'm around have a healthy experience with it.
So maybe we need to start talking about sex in a more healthy way.
Not pornography, but sex.
Because sex is natural.
Sex is something people actually do.
It is natural, but so it's an impulse, and sex should be saved for one person in marriage.
But that's your own moral way of being.
Not everyone feels that way.
It doesn't matter how they feel.
Anchoring to Absolute Truth00:07:02
It's the ideal.
It's true.
But where does that come from?
Where are your morals coming from?
The laws of nature and nature is God.
It's the ideal.
Who is God?
Is that a Christian God?
Is it a Jewish person?
I believe in a Christian in the Christian.
Okay, so that's in the moral space of Christianity.
Well, it's objectively true.
I don't want to go too far in the spiritual domain, but let's just kind of ask this question, which is: do you think in the ideal, a monogamous heterosexual relationship is the ideal?
No, I don't.
What's ideal then?
Whatever makes whatever kind of relationship is ideal.
So that being said, I don't necessarily believe all heterosexual relationships are the be end-all.
What about gay relationships?
It's not ideal.
But I have a lot of great gay friends.
It's not ideal.
But it is ideal to me.
And what about my relationship?
I'm a biological woman who lives as a man who has an actual biological woman wife and a biological child.
Respectfully not ideal.
But that's right.
That's see what I mean?
That's your idea, but my idea is different than yours.
But I think you could look, and you know this deep down.
You know it's true.
Objectively, if a society does not have marriages that are between men and women and having children out of those marriages, that society will unravel and cease to exist.
Well, I mean, again, that's not, that's possible in your space, but I think looking outside of your space, there are so many different ways of being that don't necessarily in your eyes.
In the eyes.
I know, because the eyes are yelling.
Let me ask you a question.
Is there a such thing as absolute truth?
Not, that's a difficult question for me to answer because I'm not really sure.
Yes or no?
No.
Do you believe that absolutely?
Yes.
Then you do believe in absolute truth.
So it's a trick question.
Right on.
No, but I don't believe in absolute truth.
So you absolutely believe there's no absolute truth.
So I think things, things, there's a nuance there, my friend.
I think there's a nuance in everything.
And I think that we're missing that.
But there's some things that are.
So, for example, you believe murder is wrong.
You believe that.
Of course.
Of course.
Okay.
Of course.
And wait, let's just look at murder.
What if you murdered somebody because you were going to save your life?
So, you know, is that murder?
That's killing, not murder.
Okay, see, so there you go.
Now you just change the differences.
No, no, no.
Murder is very simple.
Murder is taking the life of an innocent for no good.
That's the definition of murder and the definition of killing.
Of course.
Okay.
So if someone tried to come in and tried to murder me and I killed them, that would be killing, not murder.
Murder would be there's someone in their house.
I don't like them.
I want to take them out.
They never did anything.
So it's a different intention.
So yes.
But that's not nuance.
That's just separate.
No, no, no, that's a separate definition.
You don't believe.
No, no, no, no.
Of course, you don't believe in murder, right?
Yeah, and you believe in telling the truth, right?
Whatever the truth is.
Everyone's truth is different.
Is it?
I think so.
So, I mean, like, can you make up your own physical?
We're talking about physics, right?
Like, you can't make up your own material truth.
You can't be like, driving on the 405 laws of gravity or suspended.
I would love that.
Right.
Right?
But my truth is that.
But it must be anchored to some absolute truth.
You have to be.
Well, of course.
Now, now looking at it like that, when you explained it, I understand that.
But at the same time, outside of that, my absolute truth around marriage or that might be different than your absolute truth around marriage.
No, no, it might be, but the question is, what is right?
So why would there be...
What is right to me is not the same as what's right to me.
So yeah, that's the question, right?
So Ted Kaczynski thought it was right to say that.
That's right.
That's right.
He sure did.
And that was wrong, right?
Well, in our eyes, yes, but not in his eyes.
But he was wrong.
In our eyes.
Yes, he was.
Do you think in objective eyes, Ted Kaczynski was wrong?
Yes.
Okay, good.
So that's what I'm saying, is that there is an objective moral standard, eventually.
Eventually.
So, and what I'm saying is that in that objective moral standard, include sexual relations.
Yes.
So again, but then sexual relations come to what you believe in as sex.
Let me ask you a question, though.
So like pedophilia.
Is it objectively wrong?
So now we're going back to kids.
No, that's important, though, because that's actually debated.
There's college professors that say that.
Oh, no.
So let me just start with: yes, I do not believe in pedophilia.
I believe in the idea of that.
I'm not accusing you of that.
I don't think you are.
And that being said, I believe it's an illness.
I believe it's an actual mental illness that needs to be understood.
I do not agree with it.
I don't think it should be understood.
I think it should be.
No, but I think we need to do studies and understand why are people doing this?
Why is this actually happening?
I have no desire to have sex with a child.
Hopefully, you don't either.
Now, that being said, I have no desire, but I would really want to know why are these people this way?
But the point is, finally, you admit, okay, that's wrong.
It is wrong.
Right.
So there at some point.
In my eyes, it's wrong.
But like you just said, there are some people who believe it's not wrong.
Right, but they are wrong, is the point.
In our eyes, they are wrong.
No, but that's the point: is that eventually we're going to have to get to objective truth and subjective truth.
Yes.
It doesn't matter my eyes versus their eyes.
It's existence, right?
A is A, regardless if you think it's B.
But do you think you could get everyone on board with that?
No way.
The humans will never get on board with everything being one thing.
They will not do it.
Great question.
Is that it doesn't take everyone, right?
The majority.
Well, or a reasoned majority, right?
This is why the American founding was so special.
Yes.
Is that all 13 colonies believed in some very certain basic things, right?
That man should be free, rights are granted by God, separation of powers, consent to the governed.
There might have been some lunatic weirdo in the hills that was like, I want to live under a king.
That's right.
It doesn't really matter, right?
But when we look at how we formulate laws and we ask morality, it really comes down to the question: what is good?
Right.
What is good?
So, again, where you're coming from, I think.
And it's not just the Bible.
It's from the classics.
It's from Aristotle, Plato, it's from the canon of the West, from Aquinas, from Augustine, from Bacon, from Newton, all of these amazing pioneers that built the West articulated a central morality that is in our books, it's in our movies, it's in our existence, which is that children are off limits.
The ideal is one-man, one-woman marriage, that we should try to protect the innocent, that courageous exploration is something we should, and that's their morals.
It's the morals.
That's what I'm trying to get at.
I don't agree with you.
But it isn't the morals.
It's the morals of those specific people.
Other people have different morals.
Right.
So exactly.
Right.
So if you go back to the 800s of the Goths, they used to murder children.
They used to not think it was wrong.
That is wrong.
In our eyes, that's wrong.
But in their eyes, it isn't wrong.
That's what I'm trying to say: I agree with pedophilia, all those things are wrong.
But the point is that the overarching laws of the universe don't change just because someone thinks that they're not.
But how are those the overarching laws of the universe when these are just human men making these laws up?
They're not just making them up.
They are writing them and writing them down.
Where are they getting them from?
Because they're coming together.
And they're coming together as men and having discourse creates that.
That's right.
So if you take a different group, that's right.
But another group of people will have different ideas about that.
But even if they have different ideas, the point is that you can look at that and say, huh, okay, Aztec sacrificing children, wrong.
I don't care if they thought it was right.
I don't care if they thought that it was going to bring back Teyotuktan or whatever.
Social Constructs vs Reality00:04:42
Wrong.
Yes.
Right?
Right.
Romans that used to rape boys.
Wrong.
That's right.
So what I'm saying is that we look at that, regardless if you're from Japan or Russia and you have an overarching view of the universe that says there is objective morality.
In their eyes.
Yes, I agree with you.
All right.
I'm going to wrap up with this last question.
Is transgenderism a legitimate thing?
Does it coincide with the natural law or is it a social construct created over time?
And if so, by whom and for what purpose?
So that's a great question, actually.
So again, I can speak for myself because myself, I do believe that I actually have something called gender dysphoria.
And I do believe that I have been diagnosed by a professional person that says, now, let's say I wasn't diagnosed.
I don't know.
Maybe I would have been able to live my life as a very butch woman, but I tried and I couldn't do it.
That being said, I think transgenderism is a real thing.
I think it is a mental disorder.
I believe that people can be diagnosed with it and you can be me and move on with your life.
I believe what's happening today is something different than what I see and what I believe in.
So, you know, that's kind of where I stand.
Yeah, I don't know about a real thing.
I don't really know how to answer that part of it.
I mean, I'll say I think you're actually a lot tougher than you give yourself credit for.
I think that you could have got through it without having to pick yourself apart.
But I'm happy.
So isn't that really the bottom line?
Is I'm a happy person and I move through the world the way I wanted to move through the world.
And, you know, that's all I want anybody to see.
I don't want to change your mind.
If you're not into changing your mind, that's totally okay.
All I want to do is walk away from this table saying, you know what, Buck, cool.
I respect what you do.
That's it.
I don't agree with it.
I don't want to.
I don't respect pornography.
I'll be very honest.
Right on, but that's okay, dude.
But I'm totally cool.
You are a pleasant person.
So, yeah, look, it is a social, I don't really social construct like, I mean, this transgender movement is invoking massive damage on our own.
It is.
I agree.
I will agree with that.
I don't believe what's happening is real.
And I'm wondering, what are the underlying agenda here?
Why is it, I get called transphobic.
That is so insane in itself.
That should say everything to the world right there.
Because I don't agree with certain things in a community.
That says to me it's not a community anymore.
It's something like very cultish.
And very much if you speak outside, they're going to come after you.
I will not, as a person who transitioned 29 years ago, who lives an amazing life, who moved forward in the world, sit down and watch what's happening to the community I helped to build.
So that's where I stand.
I believe it's real.
What was the second part of the question?
It was who is creating this and for what purpose?
Yeah, I think it's the pharmaceutical companies.
I do too.
I do too.
Well, I don't want to get into that rabbit hole, but I think I think there's a supernatural component to this.
That's a separate issue for me.
Yeah, that's right.
So I'll give you each about a minute for final thoughts and then we'll close.
You first.
Oh, thank you.
So my final thoughts were that I understand why people have a hard time with pornography.
I always have and I always will.
I do believe what I do still is important work in my field.
That being said, I also believe that people need to start understanding transgender is something that is a very small amount of people in the world.
It's not what you see.
And I think on some level that we need to have the discussion around what's happening in this and why there's this push of agenda to transition people at such a fast rate.
Transsexualism is real.
It's here.
I have actual proof of it.
But I do believe that we need to have a bigger conversation around it.
Appreciated you being here.
It was lively and spirited.
You were more nuanced towards this.
I want to give you credit for that.
Definitely don't agree on the pornography stuff.
And I think the production of it's reprehensible.
However, we've been through that fine.
I'll just close it this.
Like, look, there's the laws of nature, and we can't put them in suspense just because we want to.
You admit that.
You admit I'm a male.
That is, you know, I don't want to say offend you at masquerading as a female or putting on a costume or whatever as a male.
And I think it's really important that we stay anchored in things that are good and true and beautiful and trying to go on the journey of the exploration of the people that have gone into the fields and gone into the oceans of trying to figure out what that actually means.
The Western canon is a beautiful thing.
It's about protection of the innocent, you know, the courageous exploration, the journey of the unknown.
And there are things in this world that are objectively true.
And we must dive into those, such as sex being protected in a private domain, such as having children to be able to develop and to pursue virtue, hopefully being able to develop a society around those things.
Commending Open Dialogue00:00:44
But I will give you credit.
Your willingness to have this dialogue is something that deserves to be commended.
Thank you.
Despite our very different views on a lot of different things.
But that's how things change, my friend.
So I really appreciate you bringing me on.
It means a lot to me that you're willing to have the conversation.
Dialogue is through reason.
That's what the Greek means in it.
Buck Angel, thank you very much for joining us.
And Charlie Kirk, we'll see you next debate night.
Thanks.
Okay.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks, my friend.
That was awesome.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening, everybody.
Email us your thoughts as always: freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thank you so much for listening, everybody.
God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk. com.