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Sept. 23, 2020 - The Charlie Kirk Show
44:08
How College Is Ruining America with Heather Mac Donald
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Colleges As Victimhood Factories 00:11:46
Thank you for listening to this podcast one production.
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Hey, everybody.
Today on the Charlie Kirk show, we have Heather McDonald.
She's incredible.
She breaks apart critical race theory, BLM Incorporated, and the tragedy that colleges have become and so much more.
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Heather McDonald is here, everybody.
Buckle up.
Here we go.
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
I want to thank Charlie.
He's an incredible guy.
His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created.
Turning point USA.
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
That's why we are here.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show.
I am honored to welcome back Heather McDonald.
Heather, welcome back to the Charlie Kirk Show.
When you joined us back in late May or early June, when all of this BLM nonsense stuff was bubbling up, it was one of the best performing episodes we've ever done.
And we talked about your amazing book, War on Cops, where you really statistically and brilliantly picked apart a lot of the lies of the BLM movement.
You saw this whole thing coming well before you said something on the program where you said, this is not going to end well because these people just want total destruction.
It was so clairvoyant.
It was just looking into the future.
It was terrific.
And so you have another book I really want to focus on, though, today, because I think it gets to the even more root causes, Diversity Delusion.
Can you just tell us a little about this book and then I want to dive into parts of it?
Well, it's based on academia and the insane idea that comes out of the universities and is pumped on a daily basis into the culture at large that America is profoundly racist, that racism defines our culture, our history.
And it is empirically, demonstrably false nowhere more clearly than on university campuses.
We've seen since the George Floyd riots, every single university president more or less standing up and beating his chest saying, woe is me, I preside over racism and sexism on this campus.
That is a delusion.
It is completely fantastical.
There is no place more tolerant towards society's traditionally marginalized groups than a college campus today.
Not tolerant towards conservatives, but if you're black or female, you've got it made.
Nevertheless, students on campus are being told that they are victims or their oppressors.
They're being taught to hate Western civilization itself on the basis of the trivialities of Gonad and Melanin.
And they're going out into our culture.
They're taking over corporations.
The media is basically a mirror image of what goes on in academia.
And that sort of hatred is what we have been living through, Charlie, for the last three months with the extraordinary riots, the violence, the edging ever on a daily basis closer and closer towards civil war in this country.
And so in Diversity Delusion, it's terrific.
You talk about how the race and the gender pandering in particular corrupted the university.
We have said this before that what happens on a college campus does not stay on a college campus.
It grows to the entire part of society.
Excuse this analogy, but it's just perfect.
It's like a virus.
Can you comment on that?
Well, we have this idiotic idea that everybody in America should go to college.
The conservatives have to end that.
I know so many well-meaning Republican philanthropists in New York City who have numerous funding to the millions, billions of dollars of social uplift programs in the inner city.
They inevitably use the metric for success of how many kids in the program go to college.
We have to break that idea.
And nobody understands that better than you, Charlie.
Because as long as we continue saying that everybody should go to college, which means that college is meaningless, we should cut the population by 90% and make college a privilege for the cognitive elites, those who are willing to study the great tradition, get rid of marketing majors, get rid of the business major.
But as long as more and more people go out, they come having been browbeaten by this hatred from the moment they get into their freshman orientation by their residential advisors.
And as I say, they go into the world at large, Google the big tech companies.
When James DeMoore, this young, mild-mannered, meek computer engineer who worked at Google, was fired, not because his work was inadequate, not because he was not a good worker, was disobeying commands, but he was fed up with the constant diversity training, which again is an academic importance.
And he wrote a reasonable fact-based memo, 10 pages, suggesting that just maybe it was not sexism that explained the fact that Google is not 50-50 male-female.
Just maybe it was the average career predilections of males and females that meant that on average, and I'm not talking about anybody's daughter here.
I'm sure your daughter is going to be a Nobel Prize winner in engineering or chemistry, but on average, he's talking about distributions.
More males gravitate towards ideas-based work, abstract work, and on average, more females gravitate towards relational, hands-on, human-centered work.
DeMoore was fired.
There was a chat room discussion of this purging of heterodox thinking.
And one of the Google anonymous employees said, we have to stop this diversity thing soon because right now, our human resources department, but of course, it being Google, they have to have fancy, googly names for normal activities.
At Google, human resources is called people analytics.
Our people analytics department is basically an outpost of gender studies and black studies.
And that is true at every corporation, every big corporation in the country.
That explains their preposterous outpourings of rage against white supremacy that we saw this summer, a claim that is utterly false, Charlie.
And you're one of the few people that talk about this, Heather.
And I went through the list of corporate America because on team right, if I were to use this term, there's team right and team left in our country.
And on team right, we used to say, okay, corporations are on our side, right?
I mean, we're capitalists, you know, free market people, whatever, generally.
And team left, they're the Michael Moore people that want to get rid of corporations.
But that's not the case now.
Now you see that the corporations have been infiltrated to the HR departments through the idea of critical race theory and the CEOs who are so weak, they just want their $35 million stock bonus in the next 18 months when they get to go get their third home and retire.
They don't actually care about the fabric of the country.
And I'm saying most CEOs.
And they definitely don't want to be called the R-word by the now 3,000 new employees from Ivy League and West Coast schools that have infiltrated Lululemon to Nike to Adidas to PepsiCode to Bank of America.
Can you talk about this?
Because this is a not, I think, written about enough subject of how the infrastructure of corporations has been completely stormed, to use a storming the best deal, of almost these revolutionaries.
That's absolutely right.
You know, I've always thought that the trans issue would be finally the end to this march of the left through basic common sense and human reality.
I thought that even the most left-wing mothers would say, you are not putting a boy in my daughter's bathroom and a locker room.
But we saw when North Carolina wrote a very reasonable bathroom law saying that we are going to confine bathrooms and locker rooms for people of biological sex, you had the entire corporate America boycotting, of course, the sports industrial complex as well, boycotting North Carolina, forcing it to back down and cave.
I think what's also going on, it's not just the surreal claim of white supremacy, which is indeed surreal, Charlie.
The carnage that we're seeing in the inner city, the children that are being killed and drive-by shootings on a daily basis, it's astounding.
And America turns its eyes away from this and talks about white supremacy.
It is a bizarre moment.
But the other thing that's going on, besides the phony racial victimology charge, is the feminization of the university and the feminization of our institutions.
And I will also say this: it's also wives and daughters.
A lot of these CEOs, because on average, we know that females are far more left-wing, they're far more risk-averse, and they're whispering in the ear of their CEO husbands.
Their husbands go to dinner parties in New York City.
They don't want to be shamed there by standing up for meritocracy, for the radical idea of hiring people on the basis of competence and skills, not on the basis, as I say, of the trivialities of gonads and melanin.
But just as the universities now have been totally feminized, the bureaucracy and the professor more and more are dominated by females that are totally on the radical left, giving us the safetyism ideology that is now tearing down our economy with these grotesquely unscientifically justified coronavirus shutdowns.
That is happening in corporations as well.
I love that.
I was just taking a note, Heather.
That's so well put.
Please continue.
The safetyism.
I want to get into that, but please finish.
That's terrific.
Well, it's the idea that there shall be no more risk and the incapacity to balance cost and benefits, to balance one kind of risk against another kind of risk.
There is no more civilization-crushing mantra than stay safe.
Here's what we should be saying to each other: stay brave, stay wise, stay intellectually curious, stay transfixed by beauty and sublimity.
Stay safe is a recipe for utter stasis and shutdown.
But that again, you know, I'm going to be very blunt here, Charlie.
Civilization Is A Male Product 00:03:04
Civilization, by and large, is a male product.
The reckless, the negative male traits that we see in crime, in disobedience, have their upside in risk-taking competition that the passionate desire to explore.
We saw within the last year, the American Psychological Association, which is now dominated by females, it has not had a male president in a while.
For the last decade, the presidents of the APA have been overwhelmingly female.
They came out with a statement defining masculinity itself as toxic.
And so the stay-safe mantra that is killing our economy, it is destroying the future of yet unborn generations is also an expression of this feminized way of thinking that is not willing to accept some risk and simply move on with things.
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And it's bad for women too.
And that's what is the tragedy.
It's bad for everybody.
And then you see, and the studies reflect this, is you have higher than average successful people in corporate life, women that are 33, 34, 35, that if you ask them, they're actually miserable.
It's the most unhappy, most productive generation that you've seen with young women.
And then men, because the hyper-feminization of our institutions, because of our school system, they have the highest suicide rates.
They have the highest drug usage, alcoholism, and they just, they've been so emasculated.
And so I want to ask you about something that is kind of close to this, back to the corporate America piece.
And there's just so much there to unpack.
It's just so brilliant, especially that stay safe versus stay brave and stay wise.
I mean, that's just awesome.
I'm going to repeat that for the next couple of weeks, and I will give you absolute credit, which is I want you to talk about Robin D'Angelo.
White Guilt Driven By Behavior 00:07:00
This just the idea that corporate America is forking over hundreds of thousands of dollars for this kind of white guilt apology tour.
And a lot of our listeners to this program, their children are being taught by Robin DiAngelo and white fragility.
Can you talk about what guides this almost guilt-ridden philosophy?
What is behind it?
And how dangerous it really is.
Well, first of all, Robin DiAngelo is nothing new.
I wrote about the corporate diversity industry in the 1990s, and there was a guy back then, R. Roosevelt Thomas, who came out with the exact same propositions that were so roundly and justifiably mocked, that came out of the African American History Museum at the Smithsonian this summer that said things like, to be prompt is white, to care about exactitude and details and getting things right is white.
Roosevelt Thomas back in the 90s was feeding that to corporations as well, that the expectation that somebody shows up on time is just a white value.
You know, this is what is driving this white guilt.
I mean, anti-racism has become the national religion now.
I think it is because I'm going to be very frank, Charlie.
We understandably have guilt about our history, which was an inconceivable betrayal of our founding ideals.
And it's hard to fathom how, for so many decades and centuries, Americans could be blind to how grotesquely the slavery and de jury segregation violated our Declaration of Independence and our founding principles.
Nevertheless, I assert, Charlie, that things have gone 180 degrees in the opposite direction.
Nobody does not accept for an instant what I call the myth of bias.
I refuse to give the usual disclaimer, which is, well, of course, we all know there's racist.
Well, I'll say that if we include black racists, because I've been in Harlem housing projects and I've been told by the residents of the Taft houses, don't go to the next door Johnson houses because they really hate whites there.
Let us not pretend that there is not a strong current of anti-white racism in black culture.
Today, if you want to get your kid into Harvard, you better hope he's checking off a fake box, a real box that he's black.
There's not a single institution in this country where you are not privileged, where there is not black privilege instead of white privilege.
So, what is going on here?
Why cannot we not identify that reality?
The myth of bias is the dominant narrative in our culture today.
It holds that any absence of proportional racial representation in any institution, whether it's Google, whether it's the Bank of America, whether it's Simpson and Thatcher law firm, or Sullivan and Cromwell, or the media, or STEM departments, big tech, it must by definition be the result of racism.
What we're not allowed to talk about is behavioral differences, the vast academic skills gap, differences in culture.
Let's just compare the Asian family academic culture to everybody else, frankly.
I mean, the Asians are running circles around everybody.
They're whooping everybody's ass.
But if you want to look at the biggest extremes, compare the Asian academic culture with the anti-acting white culture that is so prevalent in black communities that says, if you make an academic effort, if you take your homework home, if you do it, if you study for tests, you're acting white.
Those are the explanations that give us the real understanding of why there is not proportional representation.
Whites turn their eyes away from that behavior.
They will not look at it.
We are not talking about the three dozen black children who have been killed in drive-by shootings since George Floyd this summer.
Nobody wants to look at it for whatever reason, whether because I think blacks are terrified that that skills gap is never going to close for whatever reason, and they would rather blame themselves for phantom racism.
And this is an argument Thomas Sowell has been making for a couple decades.
And now you're starting to see it come to fruition, which is the idea of white guilt.
And also, he grew up in Harlem, and he said that in the 40s and 50s, when he grew up, when the black family was really intact, actually, black literacy rates and black success and wages were outpacing the white equivalent in a couple neighborhoods over.
Obviously, we know that is no longer the case, but Thomas Soule makes the argument that there are other things besides just racism to maybe blame for different outcomes.
However, the critical race theorists reject that.
Their idea is that racism is everywhere.
The institution is built on racism, and we must topple it all down together.
The whole thing, that it is a construct of the white supremacists.
Please.
I would make two points.
I've come to the conclusion that the fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals look out on the world, they see socioeconomic disparities, they will only accept systemic, a structural explanation.
They refuse to look at the individual choices that people make and culture.
Conservatives look at the world and they see a whole slew of bad decisions, above all, having children out of wedlock.
Now, the right says that the left is blind to these patent, patent individual differences.
The left will say that the right is blamed, is blind to the patent differences in opportunity.
Who's got the?
I obviously think that the right is more correct than the left in that.
And I don't think that we deny for an instant that, of course, there's some children who are born with much more privilege than others.
But I still think that we know we've had something called the success recipe since William Galston, a Clinton domestic policy advisor back in the 1990s, said to avoid poverty in this country, all you have to do is three things.
You graduate from high school.
Please note, not college.
You work full-time at a job, any job, including a minimum wage job, and you wait until you're married to have children.
Everybody who does that, you have 75% chance of being in the middle class.
So it is behavior that matters.
I will add one more thing.
Let us look again at the idea that Republicans in particular are racist.
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What we're going to get a lot of white flight coming up, Charlie, because of these unchecked riots.
What people care about is not color, it is behavior.
And if there were no behavioral differences, there would be no residential segregation.
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So just to play devil's advocate, Heather, I hear this all the time from even Republicans and conservatives.
Two-Parent Households And Success 00:09:39
And I have a way of handling this and countering it, but I'd love your take.
They say, Charlie, I agree there's no white privilege in the sense that you don't have any sort of advantage because of the color of your skin.
But because of the landscape and white people are generally more likely to be born to a two-parent household and black people are not, wouldn't that then play into the idea that an average white American would have a higher likelihood to succeed than a black American, therefore giving some credence to the idea of some form of privilege?
How do you unpack that?
Not going back 100 years or 50 years, but even some center-right suburban voters, they look at some of the data and the landscape that I think is not a complete picture, but they sympathize with some of this narrative.
How do you unpack that?
What's your most effective way to cross-examine that?
I wish I'd come across that argument.
You're speaking to more sane people than I am.
I have never heard anybody never on the left acknowledge that the real privilege that we're talking about is two-parent family.
Well, these are people on the right.
I'm just saying these are some people on the center right that are trying to wrestle with it, right?
So anyway, please continue.
I would say the solution to that is to have more families.
The idea that, because there's no other solution, there is no other solution because transfers don't work, redistribution of wealth doesn't work.
And here's what really doesn't work: racial preferences.
You know, that is the solution of choice, which is that we have this massive academic skills gap.
There's a standard deviation difference.
You know, over 40% blacks, eighth graders do not even have what is known as basic math skills.
Basic math skills are defined as merely partial mastery of eighth-grade math concepts.
40% of blacks don't even have partial mastery.
And yet we're supposed to believe that if we don't have 13% black engineers in any every department in this engineering department in this country, it's because of racism.
The fact of the matter is, is that it's behavioral.
Is those decisions that people make giving preferences to people who are not academically qualified hurts them?
They end up not succeeding.
So, if somebody is willing to say that, yes, there's family privilege, the solution to that is to start valorizing fathers, to reject the feminist line that strong women can do it all, and say, on average, children need mothers and fathers, that they are complementary.
There are on average differences, and children, girls as well as boys, need fathers, as President Obama acknowledged in a moment of clarity as he was running for president the first time around in 2008.
Heather, you just hit on something very interesting that I just thought of, which is if you read the Black Lives Matter website, BLM Inc., which we still don't have an address listed or a phone number or staff, we don't know where the money's going.
Different podcasts for a different time, but it's one of the most suspicious money transfer schemes I've ever seen.
But it's an interesting intersection of this feminist lie and the kind of critical race theory when they go down and they say we reject the Western prescribed nuclear family, where they're almost trying to have a fusion of kind of just deconstructionism on the nuclear family side and also on the racial side.
And I think that's an interesting piece of it because they don't acknowledge that fathers have any role whatsoever.
It's this hyper-feminization alongside the hyper-racialization of our country kind of put together.
Can you comment on that, on how these two groups have almost kind of fused together in this activist moment?
Well, you know, it's maybe there's a moment of hands across the water, but what I see is rather a dog-eat-dog, ruthless competition of who gets to be top dog on the victim poll.
You know, at times the feminists win with campus rape, idiocy, and at times the underrepresented minorities win.
At this point, yes, you do have a fusionism and it's rationalizing the real.
If in fact you have 70% out of wedlock birth rate among blacks and you are refusing to talk about personal responsibility, your only other alternative is to say that fathers don't matter.
But I'm in contact right now with a head of security at a small college who has been forced to take a two-week leave of absence because a female student reported to the police department in the city where the college is located that she thinks that she was the victim of an attempted abduction attempt.
A guy drove up in a car and tried to get her in.
And the campus security chief, consistent with the requirements of the federal McClary Act, which is to protect females from this alleged tsunami of campus violence, put out a bulletin to his campus saying that somebody thinks that she was a victim of an attempt.
And he described the language being spoken by the man who tried to get him.
There was an uproar.
This man is maybe at risk of his job.
The college president wrote the most.
He said a skin color.
I'm just guessing, I'm conjecturing that was.
Very less.
So what we have at this moment is the top dog are the race activists, because at a different moment, this is a female claiming that she is at risk of sexual assault.
But now instead, the entire campus is united against this security guy to get rid of him.
So it's a constantly fluctuating thing.
And I've been noticing, I've got a piece coming out in City Journal on what I call the myth of bias and going through the data that are the real explanation as far as the academic skills gap for why there's not proportional representation.
But I note that now, even if you're headed by a white female, like the left-wing public radio station WNYC in New York City, there's been a revolt among staffers because they recently named a white female to head the news division.
And this is not good enough.
She's female, yay, but she's white.
So now we have whiteness trumping femaleness as the worst sin you can possibly have.
Quite honestly, I just hope they all tear each other apart.
I do too.
It's delicious.
Yeah, I hope that they are the same sort of intensity they have after conservatives just go at it.
I want to get your comment on one thing, Heather.
I thought it was absolutely brilliant.
President Trump announced that he's going after critical race theory.
He wants it removed from the federal curriculum of teaching employees.
He announced the 1776 Commission.
But also, Heather, I love this.
It was not front page news, but I just thought of you when I read it.
Princeton University came out with this long speech saying that racism is in the roots of our school.
We never have been able to get rid of it.
And then the Department of Education came out and said, oh, really?
So you've been in violation of the Civil Rights Act since the 1960s?
And they're investigating Princeton.
Now, Princeton's like, oh, no, we actually didn't mean it that way.
Can you talk about it?
Because I actually think that the more they go on this sort of atonement tour, they're actually opening themselves up to a lot of vulnerabilities they might not have expected.
It's hilarious.
It really is.
It was a stroke of genius, something I've been calling for because I've been saying these presidents, you know, name some names.
Who are the faculty that are the racists that are denying opportunity to black students?
Answer, zero.
There are none.
What are the students that you're admitting, this wave of racists?
What's wrong with your admissions procedures?
Why haven't you resigned if you preside over this racist institution?
And it makes no difference because, again, it is a religion of anti-racism.
Whites are in this paroxysm of, it's hysterical.
It's a form of psychosis.
There's never been a civilization like this, Charlie, that is so self-canceling, that is so denying their accomplishments without ground.
It is just beyond belief.
And as I say, you said it right.
Where do we end up?
Maybe nowhere.
So this can happen.
They should bring these suits not just against universities, but against the corporations.
If you're also saying, of course, we're racist.
We've got to purge racism.
There's no end to this.
The reaction to the Justice Department letter of intent to investigate is hilarious.
I mean, it's completely illogical.
I mean, I can't even begin to summarize that they're saying, well, just because we're copying to systemic racism doesn't mean that you should investigate us for racism.
Like, what?
I just don't know.
But it's the same thing.
As I've always said, if parents started believing this ridiculous, nauseating, narcissistic narrative about we're a hotbed of campus rape and said, well, I'm not sending my daughter there.
The college of presidents and campus bureaucracy would turn on a dime in an instant and say, well, actually, now that you mention it, there's no safer place for your daughter to be than my college campus, which is true.
Challenge Your Preconceptions Today 00:05:27
There is the rate of crime on college campuses is less than any other spot in America, and yet they all virtue signal by saying, and they compete.
There was a time, Yale was very angry when Harvard reported more sexual assaults in its ClearIACT federal report than Yale did.
And Yale was grousing, well, they're probably double counting or something.
So they compete to have the most reported sexual assaults, even though they know that these are all drunken hookups.
It's just, it's a completely bizarre, contradictory, psychotic set of narratives that they're promulgating.
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This is what happens, though, when over a couple of decades, you don't teach the classics, you don't value dialogue, you get away from reason.
And over a couple decades of just postmodern indulgence, this is the, we are living in the world of Michelle Foucault and Jacques Derrida and Herbert Mokusa, where they said very clearly there's no such thing as truth.
You have your own truth, no data.
Science is just a tool, the white supremacist construct.
And that sounds foolish and it's a bad idea for five years, but after 25 years and those people grow up in positions of power, they're going to start acting on these ridiculously, as you say, psychotic and insane ideas.
Last question here, Heather.
We have a lot of young parents that listen to our podcast that have five-year-olds, 10-year-olds, people that are going into college.
You understand this landscape better than anybody else.
What is your specific advice?
Knowing what you know, what would you tell a young parent that wants what's best for their kid to flourish in Western society?
Well, first of all, I just want to disagree with you a little bit.
I know that explanation that this all comes from a nihilism towards truth.
The left thinks it knows the truth.
They are absolutely morally righteous.
They're not relativists when it comes to white supremacy.
So I don't think that's the problem.
I think the problem is the decades of cultivation of hatred towards Western culture, failing to teach students to be down on their knees in gratitude for this beauty.
That's what parents have to do is if your school is not doing it, go and find out what the classics are of British children's literature, works of such monumental subtlety, irony, sympathy for the human imagination, Wind in the Willows, Winnie the Pooh, Lewis Carroll, all of these great works.
Start young, give them great language, continue throughout their grade school years, their high school years.
Watch what they're reading in school.
Make sure they're getting exposed to Herman Melville, to Mark Twain, without apology, to Shakespeare, to Anthony Trollope and George Eliot.
And in college, there's very few left.
The St. John's colleges are still committed to a great books curriculum.
Hillsdale, obviously, there's some Catholic schools here and there, although Notre Dame has gone very left.
I'm a believer that we need to, as you know, I mean, you're defund the university as the essential activity.
If we can't replicate the problem is that the parents want the status that the traditional colleges confer.
I would love to see a revival of the myth of the tradition of the tutor, 18th-century aristocratic British parents used to have a tutor take their child on the grand tour in Europe and go visit Rome and Venice and Vienna and learn history, see that great art, see that great architecture.
We could do this maybe in sort of group pods or something, but it would be a real dilemma as a parent, and I don't know how I would answer it, frankly, of whether you would send your child to a status-conferring institution and roll the dice that you are wasting $200,000 of tuition for more inculcation of hatred and no learning whatsoever.
Yeah, I tell young parents all the time: I say, if you're not prepared to turn to your neighbor and say, my kid's not going to college, and I'm okay with that, it's far more about you than it's about your kid.
It's so much about status.
A lot of the parents' ego is into this, and it's hardwired.
Unwinding The Criminal Justice System 00:04:36
And it's hardwired into how we do public polling of our president.
We have college-educated and non-college-educated.
No parent looks at that and they say to their kid, Oh, I want you to be in the non-college because we're really saying, Look at the smart people and the dumb people.
That's really kind of how the polling is done.
And so it's subtly and not so subtly pushed forward.
And we have successfully divested $70 million from higher education since mid-July.
And that's just a start.
That's just a small little micron of what needs to actually happen.
But I think your commentary on this, Heather, is so needed.
Just final thing.
Can you just kind of give us an update on?
You mentioned this.
It's not exactly a happy note to land on, but it's important.
Just some of the statistics of the urban carnage and violence that have happened since mid-June.
You accurately predicted, you said urban violence will go up.
Ferguson effect is going to happen.
This was before, by the way, Jacob Blake, this was before the rioting actually got even more out of control.
I talked to you in early June, and you said so clearly, you said we are going to see a nearly 50 to 70% increase in urban violence.
I think we've seen that.
Have we?
And what is your kind of analysis statistically on this?
Well, it's going to get worse.
If this narrative doesn't change, it's going to get worse.
Yes, some cities have seen 200% increase in shootings and homicides.
Victims overwhelmingly black.
The police, we're living through rolling riots on a daily basis.
Yes, we've had the attempted assassination of two cops in Compton, California, two sheriff's deputies.
That is the tip of the iceberg, Charlie.
Every single day, when cops get out of their car today to make when they're, if they are doing it at all, to make a proactive stop, something they don't need to do, they find themselves routinely surrounded by hostile jeering crowds throwing things at them.
This a couple weeks ago or this week in Baltimore, detectives were trying to arrest two robbers outside of a downtown hotel.
They took off, they tried to, they ran into the cop car.
They tried to run the detectives down.
Cops are being shot at routinely.
They're walking off the job, either figuratively or literally.
The resignations are going way up.
No cop.
Nobody is going to go into policing in this country.
So we are seeing a spreading urban violence at a rate that I've never witnessed.
And it's moving into downtown Chicago.
You know, we had the riots there.
We now have a new standard emerging where you had riots in Lancaster, Pennsylvania over the weekend that were set off by a cop shooting a man who was lunging at him with the knife.
By all appearances, this was a clearly justified shooting.
The officers are justified in using lethal force to end the threat of lethal force.
Nevertheless, we saw the usual riots, the tearing down of cop cars, the arson, the destruction of businesses.
So cops are now got the message: you can't even defend yourself against lethal force.
You're supposed to take it as penance for your racism.
We are unwinding the criminal justice system.
There's not a single law enforcement practice, whether it's bail, whether it's public order enforcement, that is not being undone because they all have disparate impact on blacks.
Again, it's the myth of riots.
It's the myth of bias.
If we do not take on the myth of bias and provide alternative explanations, Charlie, civilization is over.
Criminal justice is over.
The study of literature, well, it's already over, but it will get worse.
Washington, D.C. is over.
I mean, we're going to, every founder is going to be torn down.
You're speaking my language.
I say this, and people used to say I was alarmist.
Now they think I'm spot on, but you're exactly right.
The two books, War on Cops, Diversity, Delusion.
Heather, thank you again for joining us.
I'm going to tell everyone, just listen to this one episode because it's just so much wisdom here.
So thank you so much.
And I hope next time we speak, we'll turn some of these trends around, but I'm not totally hopeful on that.
But thank you so much, Heather.
Appreciate it.
Thank you, Charlie.
Always an honor.
Thank you so much.
Talk to you soon.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
What a great interview that was at Heather McDonald.
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