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Sept. 20, 2020 - The Charlie Kirk Show
42:24
BLM Inc Has No Place in the Church OR America

Charlie sits down with Pastors David Engelhardt and Rob McCoy to have a candid discussion about critical race theory and its infiltration of the Church and America, and why the central tenants of BLM Inc. actually stand diametrically opposed...

Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Method for Reconciliation in Christ 00:02:09
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Back by Popular Demand, Pastor Rob McCoy and Pastor David Engelhart.
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Hey, everybody.
Welcome to this conversation, an episode of the Charlie Kirk Show, backed by Popular Demand, Pastor David Engelhardt, and my pastor, Pastor Rob McCoy.
Welcome, guys.
Thanks.
We are here at Liberty University discussing all things America, faith, the Bible, and you name it.
David, let's dive right into it.
Why is critical race theory unbiblical?
And BLM incorporated what they stand for.
Yeah, I mean, so when we're talking about critical race theory, right, we're talking about the division of people groups based upon certain attributes, based upon either economic attributes or critical race theories is racial attributes and then doing analysis.
Legal, there's critical legal theory, right, which is the same kind of thing.
We look at all of the law through this kind of system that's based upon certain power structures.
And so we're talking about dividing people groups categorically and then determining or placing value upon those people groups categorically based upon where they stand in that structure.
Christianity and Wokeism 00:15:06
And when you're talking about division, the opposite of that in Christianity is what?
It's reconciliation, right?
And there is a method for reconciliation in Christ.
And that method for reconciliation primarily and categorically is Christ himself.
He's the great reconciler.
And that's the division, right?
The division between unsaved and saved, the division between life and death.
The division between God and man is reconciled and Christ.
And I love that, you know, peace on earth, goodwill towards men, right?
That there's the great celebratory phrase coming from heaven is one of reconciliation from God to man.
So I think, you know, don't want to sound too overboard.
I think it is exactly the opposite of Christendom.
So since it's exactly the opposite, why do so many churches embrace it?
Well, I would say that our churches primarily have been hijacked and not in a way that it says in the King James version in Genesis that the snake was the subtlest beast of the garden.
And I love the old King James because of the word subtlety.
You don't know it's sneaking up on you, right?
And so here's my primary drive.
I got to get butts and seats.
I got to get dollars in the, what do we do?
Plates?
We do digital in there.
We don't do plates.
That's archaic.
We don't either, so I guess I'm okay.
Yeah.
But if that's the primary driver is growth of the body, then our now metric for success becomes what I say on a Sunday morning.
And the more I appease people, the more people show up.
So I must be saying the right things.
There's this story of this little kid that walks up to a bodybuilder and he says, sir, your muscles are huge.
And he's like, what are they for?
And he's like, well, they're for lifting weights.
And the kid's like, but what for?
And the guy's like, so I get bigger muscles.
And the kid's like, but so what for?
And he's like, and that is what our churches have become.
They've been growth for the sake of growth.
And in the physical body, that is cancerous growth.
That is growth for the sake of growth.
That it doesn't have a utility purpose to serve the body itself.
And that's what's happened.
And so we have this church that cares primarily about growth, secondarily about truth, which forms the inner man.
Pastor Rob?
Okay, so the first time I got introduced to David was because I watched the podcast.
He's in New York.
I'm in California.
I really think somehow, like I told you, my dad traveled to New York and had an adulterous relationship and you're my half-brother.
It's not true.
My dad was faithful, but yeah.
I'm glad he was.
But the thing I absolutely am blessed by.
I mean, seriously.
He takes an Arnold Schwarzenegger kind of thing and describes the church.
I'm really big.
Look at me.
I've got muscles and places where you don't have places.
Yeah, it's unhealthy.
You know, nowhere in any of the letters to the seven churches in Revelation does he ever speak of buildings, budgets, or baptisms.
And those are the three B's for growth.
It's always about this idea of establishing love.
And truth without love is hypocrisy.
And love without truth is hypocrisy.
Truth without love is brutality.
The Bible says speak the truth and love.
There's a balance.
And if we're not driving culture as a church, which is what we're supposed to be doing, then the only thing left to us is to adapt to culture.
And so you want to make sure everyone's going to stay in.
And it becomes about the bells and the whistles and the lights and the sound and the smoke.
And I'm wearing skinny jeans at 56 years of age because my kids bought them for me.
If it was up to me, I'd shop at Costco.
I don't give a flying flip about clothes.
But that's the idea is the substance.
Truth does not return void.
Yeah.
Well, we have a pendulum, right?
So beauty has a value, a significant value.
The sunset has an incredible value.
It speaks to us of the promise, the beauty, the goodness, the sincerity of a beautiful God, right?
That's what the sunset says to me.
So beauty has incredible value.
But when we take an entire church and we say, let's all hang out in the beauty area and we abdicate the truth area, then we have massive systemic issues.
But we look beautiful.
So it's a bad deal because we look pretty, but we're rotting on the inside.
So I love what you said.
It's sneaking up within the church and it's worse than ever before.
But this didn't happen.
And the obvious phrase is overnight, but it didn't happen as quickly as people realize.
I have been trying to warn against this.
One of the reasons why Falkirk was started, because we saw the growing trends of this a year and a half, two years ago at Liberty, we were saying, hey, this is really troubling.
And we're seeing this within Christianity, the kind of wokeism.
And I think we need a better term for that.
I think that's actually just a filler term right now.
I don't like it, to be honest.
I think it's using their words.
It's the best other filler phrase I've been playing.
It is kind of paganistic.
There is another way.
But let's just use that as a filler phrase right now.
But just for the record, I don't like the phrase.
I don't.
I think it's kind of just very weak.
But this kind of idea that we must atone for something you didn't do.
You must apologize for something that you're not connected to, right?
So your skin color is your sin.
So that's really what it is, though.
It's that the way you were made is inherently wrong, right?
So because, but first of all, it's so incredibly more complex than that, even if what they were saying was true.
Because how do they know my family's history, your family's history, your family's history, right?
And they don't.
It's just an incredible overgeneralization.
So there's no nuance at all.
That's one thing that BLM Inc. and critical race theory does not allow.
No nuance.
It is blunt force objects.
What we say is true.
It's pure totalitarianism, right?
It's like, all these people are bad.
You must comply.
And if you don't, we're going to crush you.
That's really a bad idea and very dangerous.
But if you come from the presupposition that how you were made is therefore bad, something you can't control, then that, of course, is anti-Christian, anti-biblical.
But then how what I'm trying to figure out, I want to build out with both of you guys is that now this is modern, this is now mainstream Christianity.
The top churches in New York, who you mentioned, and feel free to mention them, top churches in California, they are mobilizing their congregation for BLM Inc. for critical race theory.
They're taking these for these sorts of things.
They're hiring diversity czars at certain places across the country.
Some of the churches are, right?
And they're having diversity teams come into their churches to tell you who's going to be employed at the church.
Hold on a second.
I thought the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, I thought those were the things that told us who's going to be determined to be on staff at a church, to lead the church of Jesus Christ.
I don't mean of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints.
I mean the regular church of Jesus Christ.
But we don't use some kind of secular equity position.
Sorry, like we don't have enough people of Maorian descent.
So we're going to have to stop the whole ship and go on a search, right?
What's the craziness?
Paul, as we know, was sent to the Gentiles, and he was not of the Gentile caste.
He's a totally different people group.
And they were like, sorry, brother, we need a Gentile.
You go away.
Don't write the Bible.
Wrong.
You're not allowed to write the Bible to us.
Jesus came to earth as a Jewish guy that I adore.
I'm like, man, listen, I really hate the locks thing.
So I'm going to be done with Jesus.
It is independent of those kind of surface level issues.
And the problem, Charlie, is as it comes in, it's not that all people are corrupt.
It's only that certain people are corrupt of a certain class, right?
The people in power are corrupt.
And that's exactly right.
It's not as if they're saying everyone's bad.
They're saying only these certain people of a certain descent, mostly, by the way, white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant.
The kind of, I hate using that kind of metaphor, WASPI, but that's kind of what the focus continually is at.
And so if you said, like, all people are bad or negative or something like that, well, then you're way too close to original sin.
So you don't want to say that because one of their axioms is that there's no original sin.
That's exactly right.
So how can the church entertain that, Rob?
The idea that there's no original sin.
No, but they're entertaining this critical race theory, BLM.
I'm not just entertaining it.
They're endorsing it.
They're teaching it.
These are the biggest churches in America.
So the truth of the matter is there's been racial tension in the country.
Now, how do we process that?
Because black Americans, historically, with the struggles, we've gone through all this.
And I look at black Americans as a pawn of both parties.
And I can go through that with 1876 and all of it.
But here we are.
And you've got a dynamic in the nation.
There's some folks with white guilt.
There's people who've been educated in schools by bad historians, revisionist history.
And now you come into the church.
And as you were saying, David, you want to keep butts in the seats.
So you want to be empathetic.
You want to be sympathetic.
You want to be able to see what the culture is dealing with.
And so you try to accommodate it.
And that's where you floored me when you linked me to Dr. Anita Phillips' video.
And I watched that.
Tell us about it, Rob.
So Dr. Anita Phillips is talking to Christine Kane.
And Christine Kane, Australian woman with Hillsong, she's just nodding in complete affirmation about what Anita Phillips, and she's an amazing speaker and captivating.
I was enjoying listening to her.
And then she gets to this dream about two different creations, the Nordic tribes and the African tribes.
And these were created man and woman with a hierarchy and authority.
And these were created in a collective.
And you don't understand the African community because you're from this community.
And then she says this, there's no such thing as a Christian worldview.
And I just went, wow.
It's like.
Wait, I'm sorry.
So a Christian church Hillsong pastor from there was agreeing with this?
She's a psychologist from Maryland.
Her husband's a pastor.
Yeah, to be honest, Christine Kane, I don't think she knew what was happening.
I think she totally has no idea.
That's not an excuse.
I agree wholeheartedly with you, but this is so crazy.
Let me just say this real quick.
The one thing I thought about that there's no Christian worldview, and she's using this idea of a dream of Nordic and African tribes.
I'm like, okay, Christine Kane has no clue of history because the Nordic tribes are Scottish, because she's just basically drawing it back.
You're white, and this is your formation.
No, I'm sorry.
The Scots were pagans, polytheistic, and they ate each other.
I mean, everybody is with sin.
I don't care where you're from.
That's where we could communicate.
Christ changes everything.
What you're describing in your dream is a constitutional republic formulated by Christian biblical worldview and collectivism of communist.
That's not from Stockholm.
It's from Jerusalem.
I know.
Which is the blend of all.
But she had a dream.
Give her a break.
I'm just trying to understand.
So a major church, the biggest church, and this is one of the biggest churches in New York.
This is what they consider to be truth.
Christine Kane was eating it up.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, they can't.
They consider their church.
Every camp is worldwide the same church, essentially.
They consider it.
Kane is not in New York.
She's somewhere else around the world.
She's in Australia.
But you're from New York and you've mentioned that.
Yeah, I mean, listen, Anita Phillips says to Kane, listen, the reason why you're such a deep thinker is because you're Greek.
And don't you know that all the Greek people are incredibly deep thinkers?
Because one time I've heard of a person called Aristotle and Plato, and therefore I'm extrapolating on all Greeks throughout the history of man deep thinking.
And you want to say, like, do you not know the history of the world?
That every culture that reaches an economic apex has the ability, because of economic softness in their economy, to have time to think deep thoughts.
So it's not the Greeks have some kind of unique power, but that's how awfully eugenic argument.
It's incredibly eugenic.
It's incredibly shallow.
So only Greeks are deep thinkers.
Only African are communal people.
It really is racism is frankly what it is.
And so it's that application.
It's a reversion back to tribalism.
And what's really interesting is that you look at what the improbability of the West, which is this miraculous blend of reason and revelation.
And you put those two together.
And if they allow to exist too mutually exclusively of the other, society and civilization, you need that balance.
You need that struggle, right?
You go too far to reason, then all of a sudden you get way too secular Darwinist.
And then if you go too far, obviously, just for obvious reasons, no secular Darwinists.
And I've challenged them publicly.
I say, tell me why blind people should not be killed in a secular Darwinist worldview.
Walk me through.
Or say or give a moral reason why rape isn't wrong.
Right.
And so Sam Harris tries to, I think his reasoning's okay on that one because it's one of force and not of consent.
And so, but I don't think it's perfect.
I'm just saying like Sam Harris addresses that in the moral landscape.
But the four horsemen of the apocalypse, of the, not the apocalypse, four horsemen of the atheist apocalypse, whatever they call themselves, right?
Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, and the fourth guy, who I can never remember.
Poor guy.
Yeah, we'll pray for him.
So, and if you understand those guys, it actually makes somewhat of a joke.
So, but Harris can't answer the question, what do you do with blind or deaf people?
What do you do with them?
And they, because in the social Darwinist hierarchy, there should be no, there's no utility for them.
They are up against a, they are up against something they did not create that is a ceiling, right?
And so we take this for granted.
The West was the first civilization to make houses for the blind, learning centers for the deaf.
It was Christians that did it in year 300 in Jerusalem.
In Jerusalem, it was Christians and churches that did it.
And so we take this so for granted.
I just love that example because all of us in some capacity, we know someone who is either dealing with a severe mental disability.
We know someone that has dealt with blind or being blind or deaf.
Yet none of us would ever say they should be executed.
What do they do for blind and deaf people in India prior to Christianity?
Before British imperial rule came in in common law, what did they do?
They're used as sex slaves in Greece, sex slaves in Rome, are they cast aside and basically brutally murdered by the age of four in India.
There's no utility for them.
So we take this like, oh, that's common sense in the West.
You know, they would say the Hillsong people would say, oh, of course it is.
No, it's called Western sense.
And you're in a capacity to articulate or defend it.
Yeah, and this comes from the book, Vishnal Mangdagali.
I can never say his name, Vishnal, the book that built your world.
If you actually look at everything from, if you grow up in an Eastern world, India, and then you become a convert, this is why Ravi Zacharias and Dinesh D'Souza and Vishal are the most effective evangelists because they come into the West and they're like, you have no idea what you guys have here.
Like, go to Calcutta and go see 33,000 people on the side of the street that are thought of as insects.
Living Good Lives in Secular Schools 00:03:39
And we think of that.
We're like, oh, come on, that's not true.
That's just, no, it's because they don't have an ethic that is built upon truth.
Yeah, right.
Well, and the caste system is they should be there.
It's not that we should take them out, that if you take them out, they're not able to live out their potential righteousness, that then maybe the universe will lift them in the castle.
And this is the problem with liberation theology in the Catholic tradition is because they actually think there's something admirable in the state of poverty.
And this is where Mother Teresa, I think, got wrong theologically.
She did some great things, but she actually thought, why would you want to break them out of the freedom they have in poverty?
And I think that's just very troubling.
Yeah, it's theologically.
It's antithetical to every church father that we have of the patriarchs, right?
Like if you look at Abraham and Genesis 12, 1, 2, 3, the blessings that God promises for him, he says, leave this structure, leave this way of thinking, leave this way of being, of doing, and come out with me not knowing where you're going to go, and I will bless you in an incredible way.
That's the archetype of faith.
When you see the moral knowledge given by God in the Decalogue.
What is the Decalogue for?
The Ten Commandments.
Okay.
The observation of that and a community that lives by that.
Those are rules to live by.
So the community is going to flourish.
And with that flourishing, you're going to be, as you described, the Greek culture, you know, increasing in its significance.
It's because they had time to have commerce and they create.
And that's what happens when you have rules, where when you shake someone's hand, you know you're not going to covet, you're not going to steal, you're not going to murder, and you have rules to play by.
But we take this so far.
I want to reinforce this.
We do, because, yeah, go ahead.
For granted is actually the perfect term as if it was, it was granted to us, actually.
I think that term actually need to dive more into it.
We take it so built into us.
We don't know a lot of Westerners and a lot of these Christian incorporated types, they only, they have no paradigm for looking at the world anything other than, well, of course, we're always going to have different ideas being discussed.
Of course, we have private property.
Of course we have dignity for human beings.
But if you don't have a civilization that is built around that and the civilization just explodes, something will replace that.
But they have to label it, or the evil has to label it in some capacity for another human being to kill that human being.
So that's white.
That's Western.
That's Nordic.
I'm happy to call it Western.
They use it as a pejorative.
Yeah, it's a pejorative.
But the only way the enemy can survive is to pit us one way.
But that's what made the West so different, is that it was an admission, albeit a very clumsy and begrudging path.
But we actually hit an apex almost in the 1980s, early 90s, where we came up against the other ultimate totalitarian force, Soviet communism, and defeated ever having to fire a bullet or get into nuclear war.
And in the early 90s, where I was born, I believe, and I think history is going to be very fierce to exactly what happened post when I became about 18, where I hit the apex of post-racial America.
I really did.
I went to high school from the years 2008 to 2012, right when Barack Obama was elected.
And it wasn't because of Obama, but I say this, and I went to a high school that was 53% Hispanic.
I was the minority as a white kid in my high school.
We had blacks.
We had 100 different countries represented in our high school.
Think about that.
It was like the United Nations, right?
We had Arab kids, we had Iranians, we had Saudi kids, we had Persian, we had everything you can imagine.
And I say this as honestly as I can.
We did not look at each other as different.
We didn't.
It actually worked.
It was, here's what it means to live a good life, even in our secular high school.
It was about telling the truth, being full of integrity.
Justice, Truth, and Divine Image 00:15:21
And of course, these are biblical principles.
But now that very high school I went to eight years later is a disaster.
It is now white kids against black kids, Hispanic kids.
It is a total racial mess because they've instituted post- And so I've seen it in real time.
We're going regressively in a very dangerous direction.
Yeah.
You pointed out earlier, when you remove dialogue, all you have left is war.
And that's, this is something that we take for granted.
And I mean, I don't want to give Socrates all the credit for this, but the Socratic dialogue, which actually Plato wrote, Socrates never wrote anything himself.
The Socratic dialogues were written by his student Plato, is something we take for granted in the West.
In a lot of different ways, you could make the argument, and this is, I don't want to cause too much controversy in theological circles, I could make the argument Christ read Plato.
I could.
And I wouldn't be the first one to do that.
Other people would say that too, because Plato was before Christ.
And I'm not saying that it was in any way close to the scriptures, but Jesus didn't read Plato.
He made Plato.
Go ahead.
No.
No, that's fine.
But I think that he understood, though, it was under Hellenistic rule, though, right?
I mean, you have to understand the region of Judea and Samaria prior to the Roman Empire had a huge Hellenistic influence, right?
So understanding the thinkers of Plato and Aristotle was impressive.
All the church fathers were.
Right, exactly.
Exactly right.
Of course, there is a superiority there.
What I'm saying, though, is that this idea of dialogue, which Christ really was the embodiment of, right?
Where we can kind of talk out our differences in the public square, which the Pharisees were completely opposed to.
They're like, what are you doing all this talking for?
This is why they were so angry.
But if you remove dialogue and you remove the pursuit of speech, and this is what happens in Far Eastern religions, right?
In Buddhism, a true Buddhist never talks.
Think about that.
A absolute Buddhist never speaks a word.
He just says mantras and he's quiet all day long.
That is what living a good Buddhist life is.
A good Christian life is actually speaking truth as much as you possibly can to as many people.
It's the exact opposite.
And Martin Luther deserves a lot of credit for this because he kind of liberated the scholasticism of Europe where people then were able to independently speak and independently pursue truth.
And then the utility of speech is something we don't talk about enough, which is, and we know why it's moral to speak, but we don't talk about why it's actually in a utility good.
It actually allows bad ideas to be made look foolish really quickly, right?
So if you allow to speak, you know, let's say we're having this beautiful conference here and some numbskull gets up on stage and says something incredibly sinful or foolish.
We're going to probably pull him aside and say, this was a, what are you doing?
What's that?
All of a sudden, these ideas are then able to cross-examine and then people are able to make good decisions.
If all of a sudden you remove all of that and there's just one size fits all and there's only one belief, well, then people are going to resort to the only thing that they can associate with, which is tribal identity.
And it's that simple.
There's no bridge because there was this great leap forward from tribalism to the West, right?
This great leap forward was inspired by the Bible, spurred on by the Enlightenment, which the Enlightenment in a lot of different ways.
If I were to say it, and the secularists would totally disagree, the Enlightenment was just discovering what was already there made by God, right?
Newton didn't discover force time equals mass times acceleration.
He just happened to articulate it, right?
I should say he didn't create it.
He just discovered it.
That's a better way to say it.
But Descartes didn't come up with the idea of self-identity because of thinking, right?
He just, and I actually think that Immanuel Kant really was honestly when he said we should dare to know.
I think the more we know, the more it affirms the scriptures, actually.
I think the pursuit of truth actually affirms Christianity.
Where am I going after all this?
If you get rid of dialogue, you'll have violence very quickly.
It always happens.
Yeah, we were talking about this.
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
John 1, one of the most important parts of.
Yeah, one of the most important chapters of the scripture is the significance and power of the word, the spoken word of God.
We've been in churches for decades that the parishioners don't even pray out loud.
They've been so castrated in a way.
They're so afraid that they can't even open their voice to pray at all.
And when God spoke, was he hoping in a corner somewhere?
Or did he speak life and the universe into being with his very word and breath creating the universe around him?
So we create our realities with, and I mean, then you have guys like Wittgenstein that come in and they try to deconstruct language and word and all that kind of stuff.
But for us as Christians, the foundations are words are incredibly powerful.
And the Torah, the scripture, the word of God, right?
Moses comes down with the words of God on a table.
And this is why the First Amendment is freedom of speech in assemblies, because the founders recognized, John Locke articulated it beautifully, that first given right, that first principle of speech.
Without it, you have nothing else.
So my granddaughter, she was born the same day that my great Dane was born.
And they came into my life.
And now she's three, and my great Dane's three.
The great Dane grew faster.
It took liberty a long time to grow.
My great Dane doesn't speak very well.
He'll tilt his head, doesn't communicate real well.
I can tell if he's thirsty, if he wants food, wants to be let out.
That's about it.
She wouldn't even two, and she was putting five-word sentences together.
She is one of the most articulate kids I've ever met.
And the minute she learned how to speak, it was for one reason.
To declare justice.
That's not fair.
That's not right.
No.
That's what makes humans different than all other creatures.
Because God gave us the spoken word for justice, for truth, to be able to communicate that.
So let's talk about that.
So justice, either of you can take this.
Now churches are saying we believe in justice, therefore we believe in racial justice, social justice, and environmental justice.
What's wrong with that?
You don't put a word before justice.
Why?
Because God is just.
He is justice.
He's the embodiment of justice.
To put social justice means it's in man's hands.
So if 51% of the people say that this is wrong, then no, he's the author of the universe.
He's made the rules.
Yeah, I mean, justice is as to a system, right?
It has to have a construct which it compares acts according to.
And when you ask what is, when you say justice, you're implying you're asserting a set of moral values and principles.
And we're without moral values and principles.
What are we talking about?
So they make them shifting with social justice.
You get to make them up as you go.
You get to.
Isn't WAP the most famous song of our day right now?
You're going to talk to me about a system of moral values?
Have you lost your mind?
And if you dare question it, they come after you with mockery and with intensity.
And we all have to listen to this pseudo-brilliance allegedly of Cardi B, who's a complete fool.
A lie is never tolerant of the truth.
And the only way a lie can exist is to silence the truth.
Yes.
Thus censorship.
So the scripture gives us a system of moral justice.
And so when we talk about justice, we have a system of way that we can take, you know, way that's separate from that set system out of congruence.
And can we say, does this match up with these actions?
Or really ultimately, the ethic of this system.
And it seems to me that at the beginning, God said, I've created you, man, on this earth to be fruitful and multiply.
That life itself, the teleology, the purpose of man is this life multiplier.
And we live in a culture that's like the hecubus.
It's the snake consuming its own tail.
It's consumption for consumptive sake as opposed to giving life, sacrificing for life, which throws back to your Calcutta blind guy story.
Like, why do we not get off him in Christianity?
Because life has value.
It's made in the image of God.
And we're called to not just protect it, but to multiply it.
Yes.
And I think that one of the issues, though, right now is that as Christianity has abdicated its role in the public square and in the communication to young people and has tried to water down the theology, we now have a very, a very attractive form of self-indulgent nihilism that is taking place.
And this was all very predictable, by the way.
It's not exactly not as if we're going through a pattern right now that was unforeseen, right?
You remove the moral order, something fills that.
And the most obvious is just trying to fill your body with the right chemicals or the right songs or the right feelings, right, to be able to do that.
Do you think that the church that is pandering or is partnering with BLM Incorporated or with critical race theory, not getting involved in politics, that is doing all these sorts of different things?
Are they equally, do you think that there's also an issue with how they're not communicating even to the secular, nihilistic world that's growing around them?
Jesus says two totally, Jesus says contradictory stuff all the time.
Christians don't like to talk about it.
But like at one point, Jesus says, if you're not with us, you're against us.
And then later he says, if you're not against us, that you're with us.
Like, what are you talking about, Jesus?
Well, in different contexts, different truths play out.
And there's a place where this culture is literally on a breakneck speed towards the cliff of absolute chaos.
And we can see it all over the place.
The pictures are to the French Revolution, to Rome, to the destructions of those great nations are here with us today, right now.
And we're waiting for it to happen.
And if a church at some point is in the middle of some kind of semi-normal culture and they're not getting engaged and involved, fine, you're doing your thing.
You're talking about Jesus.
Clap, clap, raise hands.
But then there's a place where we're about to fall off the cliff.
And who is called to stand for God and his way and his moral order?
And if at that time you're still abdicating your voice in the community, then I think you're probably in trouble.
As it was in the days of Noah and as it was in the days of Lot.
And the reason why they add, as it was in the days of Lot, is you think about Lot.
He's in Hebrews, he's in Timothy where it says, righteous Lot tormented his righteous soul by giving his eyes and his ears audience of things of this world.
You put the word righteous in front of someone's name in the New Testament.
I want to know who that person is because I want to live my life after him.
Well, this is a man that lived in Sodom and Gomorrah, offered his virgin daughters to be abused, and then had sexual relations with them while he was drunk.
And his wife was turned into a pillar of salt.
Yet the New Testament says righteous Lot.
And God actually removed him because Abraham prayed and said, if there's any righteous, would you spare the city?
And they let him bring him out.
Lot is the church of today, as it was in the days of Lot.
Oh, he's righteous.
He's got his get out of hell-free card.
But he sits in Sodom and Gomorrah.
He sits at the city gate.
Nobody in that town even knows he's a believer.
His family doesn't even know he's a believer.
And he's willing to sacrifice his children and everything else.
But he's still been saved by grace through faith, but nobody else has a clue.
Yeah.
Genesis 19, that portion of Lot hanging out, that city is called place of burning.
The king that's over that city, his name means king of iniquity.
So he's this king of iniquity over city of burning.
I think Gomorrah means place of drowning, but they're the same pictures of absolute consumed by your own iniquity.
And it's the culture that we seem to be engaged in right now.
The church can be considered part of the bride of Christ.
But just like Lot, who is righteous and is in the New Testament in that capacity, nobody in heaven has a clue.
I mean, even the angels came to, we got to go.
He still lingered.
And everything he loved about Sodom and Gomorrah is you can take Lot out of Egypt, but you can't take Egypt out of Lot.
The church has fallen in love with the world and they don't want to leave.
And they're going to accommodate until there's nothing that even defines them anymore other than what Christ did.
There's no works.
I don't know if that helps.
No, it does.
Absolutely.
So speaking, can you just give us an idea?
Are you seeing more and more pastors rise up to all this?
Yeah.
You are too.
Do you have optimism?
What do you see on the landscape?
And what's your message to Christians out there?
Church won't open is also pandering to all these things.
I think that there's going to be a continued shaking.
I do not think we've seen the end of it.
I think there will, you know, like New York City, the day after, like two days after riots, the streets are filled with revelers again.
Like there's something, something more will happen, I think, before pastors really have a wake-up call.
And I don't know what that is.
I have some friends that are, the lights are turning on and it's incredibly encouraging because courage encourages courage, right?
Somebody said that to me recently and I'm like, that's amazing, right?
Exactly.
But I don't, I'm not optimistic.
I'm not optimistic for people.
I'm optimistic for the kingdom because as the shake, as the pruning takes place, greater fruit grows.
The real fruit grows.
The real forward movement of the kingdom of God happens after the pruning takes place.
And it seems to me that the pruning is not over yet.
I'm very optimistic in probably a very similar sense.
And this is the part I want to encourage you with.
You know, I look at you, David, and I didn't know you a month ago.
And now I'm like, thank you, God.
And I'm wondering where the rest of the guys are.
And I almost feel like it's Gideon's army.
But there's a pride in thinking that.
And this is how the Lord blessed me because in the community, I've had a relationship with these pastors for 20 years and only two of them have joined me.
But they're still my friends.
They still support me secretly, but they haven't opened.
And the Lord said to my heart, he said, you know, yeah, I use Gideon, but the ones that went away because they wanted to go be with their families for whatever reason, the Lord brought them back in and they became part of the army.
They'll find that inspiration.
The whole nation was blessed because of Gideon's standing in that hour.
Yeah, so pick who you want, but ultimately, let's all join together.
I want to win him back.
I don't want to lose my brothers.
For Christians that say, you shouldn't care that much about your country, why do you care about America?
What do you say about that?
I get a lot of those messages.
Yeah, I mean, I would ask the question, why do you care about your family?
Why would you ever care about your family?
Why would you ever care about your brother or your sister or your mom and your dad?
Because those are the people that he gave to you.
Yeah.
A country is made up of something that people don't understand.
It's made up of cities that are made up of villages that are made up of families.
Christ as King of the Earth 00:04:27
So I love the United States of America primarily or axiomatically because I love my dad and my mom and my brother and my sister.
And from there, it builds out a love for a people that I deeply love where God has placed me.
So listen, I'm all for Christ as king of the earth, 100%.
Like Christ is the king of the earth.
He's not wearing an American cape right now.
He's king of the universe, right?
He's the ruler of all these domains.
But he set me a part of a specific family in a specific city and a specific nation that I'm called to.
That's why I care deeply about my nation.
I do love America.
I love America not because of the boundaries, although it's a beautiful country, but every nation on the face of the earth has beautiful territory.
I love America because of the idea.
America's an idea.
And when you come here, wherever you come from the world and you become a citizen, you're an American.
My relatives came from Scotland.
Yours came from Germany, I'm assuming.
And you're an American.
And the reason why I like the idea, why it's instilled in me, is because the idea is liberty, dedicated to the proposition all men are created equal, endowed by the Creator, and this is given.
And that idea has been defended for 244 years with men and women who valued it, bled and died for it.
And so I have a commitment.
Yes, I do love this country because this country is an idea.
And it's the greatest idea mankind has ever known.
And that's called liberty because God gave it to us and it must be preserved.
It's the greatest nation ever to exist and it is the beginning of Western society.
And we are seeing it in real time.
You have nothing to replace this place with.
It'll crumble quicker than you could possibly imagine.
And we're headed that way.
I mean, people say, well, Charlie, where do you see this thing going next?
It's like, it's not good.
I'm telling you.
You just read a little bit about what happens when some sort of a center staple happens on a civilization, disappears, for better or for worse.
It can be when a patriarch leaves a family, a pastor leaves a church, you know, a CEO leaves a company, or in a worse case, a dictator leaves a country.
You'll have a power vacuum.
And when America leaves the West, there will be no more West.
It's that simple.
And Bob McKeon says from scripture, when you buy the strongman, there's no love.
And it's the weak and the vulnerable that are most harmed in those times.
That's the festival.
And Jesus says, like, woe to that nursing mom who's, you know, with child, because it's the worst to the weakest.
And we have this movement that's like, what about the weak?
What about the weak?
And you're like, you're going to destroy them when you destroyed this system.
They're doing it now.
Black BLM, you know, the Holocaust on the unborn black child in America, and they partnered with Planned Parenthood.
It's a Holocaust.
They're destroying the vulnerable now.
It is consuming.
The devil is a roaring lion roaming about seeking who may devour, and he comes to steal, kill, and destroy.
And as you said, Charlie, the left can only deconstruct.
They don't build it.
They've never built anything.
The left has never built anything in their existence.
Any donkey can knock down a barn door, but only a carpenter can build.
But you know what's actually amazing?
And I just want to, this is an optimistic point, how incredible of what we live in.
Because look at how hard they've tried, how much money they've spent, what they've done, and the West is still intact.
It's actually rather incredible.
They were able to topple Cuba in like an afternoon when Fidel Castro and Che Guevara are like, let's go take over this island.
Mugabe and Rhodesia was like, this is Zimbabwe now.
I mean, even Lenin was able to overthrow the Tsars.
Roba's spear was able to...
The fact they haven't yet tilted this thing over should just give you pause at how unbelievably durable what we have been given is and special.
Yeah.
And I think part of that durability is actually the moral fabric.
It's actually the church.
Of course it is.
And so when we look at Abraham in Genesis 18 praying for the city that fire is about to drop on, he's like, God, just if there's only, you know, 1,000, 500, 100, one, please, one.
Come on, one.
Exactly.
He was kind of bargaining.
Yeah.
And that culture was on the brink of absolute chaos and destruction, the judgment of God.
We have a vastly different place.
Now we have, you know.
Saving the Republic with Turning Point USA 00:01:40
What's so amazing is we're living in order generally.
Of course, there's plenty of chaos, but the general society going towards chaos.
We've never encountered something like this before.
And so the playbook is like, yeah, let's go make things uncertain again.
Let's go back.
Let's go back to just judging people on skin color because we're progressive.
Socialism has never worked in the history of the world, but this is Democrat socialism.
What's that?
Well, socialism is a turd, and Democrat socialism is sprinkles on that.
It's better this time.
It's still a turd.
Can I say that on your show?
Yeah, sure.
You can do it.
Even if you minister?
Yeah, you can do whatever you want.
Well, any closing thoughts, David?
No, thanks.
I think we covered the turd on my closing thoughts.
Oh, my gosh.
Well, Pastor Rob McCoy, Pastor David Engelhart, thank you guys for tuning in, and we'll be back soon.
Thank you, Charlie.
If you guys want to help save the Republic, get involved right now with Turning PointUSA, tpusa.com, tpusa.com.
Get engaged, get involved.
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Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Big week in store.
Talk to you soon.
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