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Aug. 5, 2021 - One American - Chase Geiser
56:09
Katherine Dee Discusses The Future Of Dating In America, Film, Anime, & The Occult | OAP #41

Chase Geiser Is Joined By Katherine Dee. Katherine Dee (@default_friend) is a writer and the Co-host of "After The 0rgy". Episode Links: Chase's Twitter: @RealChaseGeiser Katherine's Twitter: @Default_Friend Katherine's Substack: https://defaultfriend.substack.com/

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Time Text
Easy, but because they are hard, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
A date which will live in infamy.
I still have a dream.
Good night and good luck.
Today we have Catherine D on One American Podcast.
Thank you for coming on today.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for inviting me.
Absolutely.
It's a pleasure to have you.
I can't remember how I came across your profile, but I've been following you for some time.
I enjoy your newsletter.
I studied that.
And I just think that you're a great writer and have really interesting things to say.
So I thought it would be fun to have you on the podcast.
Well, thanks.
I really appreciate that.
Absolutely.
So how did you get into writing?
That's a big question.
I've been writing a long time.
Man, in all different forms.
I went to school for screenwriting and playwriting.
So maybe that's when I started really taking it seriously.
Yeah.
Did you go to UCLA?
No, I went to NYU.
Okay, cool.
How did you like NYU?
I was a little bit of a crazy person, but I enjoyed the classes.
Yeah.
So what sparked your interest in screenwriting?
Were you just like an avid film lover growing up?
What's the scoop there?
So I did a lot of like text-based role-playing.
And the way it's so like a lot of people think of it as like collaborative story writing or like, you know, short story writing, but it's not quite that.
It's more like writing for television in the format.
So, or film.
So it was really like I was trying, I was wasting all this time doing it.
So it was like, how do I, like, I've, you know, blown a decade of my life on this.
Is there any way I can take a real skill from this?
So I tried writing screenplays.
And I remember like one summer I watched like 150 movies or something just to get up to speed.
And I, you know, I ended up falling in love with film and realized that I really liked the format and my brain was already sort of primed to think that way.
And then, you know, here I am or there I was.
That makes sense.
So what's what's one of your favorite movies?
Obviously, like answering what your favorite movie is is almost an impossible question to answer.
So I always like to ask what's one of them.
Like what comes to mind when somebody asks you what your favorite work is?
So usually I have like this like terrible pretentious answer, which is Julian Donkey Boy by Harmony Corinne.
But my other terrible answer is I've been revisiting Judd Abatau movies in sort of like my quest to dive into 2000s and 2010s culture.
And I don't know if I could say in good faith that it's, you know, a great movie or the best movie, but I really love Forgetting Sarah Marshall.
Do you remember the first time you saw it?
Yeah, I think I saw it in theaters.
Okay.
What year did that come out?
My guess is 2009.
Sounds right.
It was, it was definitely, I think it was pre-2010s.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Sense.
It sounds about right.
You know, I don't know that I've ever seen that movie.
Really?
Is that a travesty for you to hear?
No, I mean, it's, you know, it's like one of these like throwaway comedies that came out.
You know, I feel like there's so many of them between like 2005 to like 2012, maybe.
And they were kind of like, they're like romantic and fun, but they're also sort of like geared towards guys.
And I don't know, none of them are like the best or sharpest writing, but I find them really fun to write.
It's fun to watch rather.
Like the 40-year-old virgin is another one, also Judd Abatau that I think is just like very fun, didn't age well at all, like would be too problematic for today.
I just watched it like three weeks ago with my wife and we enjoyed it.
But you're right.
Some of the stuff they said in that movie, I was like, there's no way you could help me with that today.
Like the whole, the classic, you know how I know you're gay?
You listen to Cole Play, like that just wouldn't fly today.
There's no way.
Well, there's like also like a whole, there's like multiple like race dimensions to that movie that like I like, I guess I noticed it, you know, the first couple of watches.
And then I watched it.
We were, we were going to do a podcast episode on it on my podcast after the orgy.
And I was like, shit, this is actually like, not only would it be perceived as racist, it actually is kind of racist.
How do you define racism?
Because I struggle with that term because growing up, I sort of always, it seems like it's kind of morphed, right?
Like racism used to be sort of explicitly believing that one race is inherently superior or inferior to another, but it seems like it gets applied to just like general stereotypes and stuff too.
Do you think that that definition or interpretation of racism is useful or correct?
Or do you think that, I don't know, maybe the word is overused?
You know, it's kind of like a moving target.
Like, you know, I appreciate what was like once said about porn, that you know it when you see it.
Yeah.
And the thing about racism is it's, you know, there's there's explicit expressions of it, you know, like slurs or discrimination or like things that are unambiguously hate crimes.
All of that is obviously racism.
But then I think there's like a, there's a subtle, there's a more subtle form of it that can be offensive.
And we live in a time that has like so little nuance that it's, it's really hard to assess that that kind of like more, more subtle expression of it.
You know, things can't, it's weird because it's like things can still be in bad taste.
And I think there's this like kind of reactionary impulse or like knee-jerk response to sort of be, you know, be so open because everything's become so repressed in the mainstream, which, but it's weird.
It's like you can't really, you can't really draw the line anymore because we've kind of, we've cried wolf too many times, I think.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Tell me a little bit about your podcast after the orgy.
Yeah, it's it's a culture commentary podcast.
Originally, we were, we were going to like sort of hone in on like 2009 to 2014.
But we've, we've want, and we still kind of are doing that, but we've wandered away from it a little bit.
We got like some really great responses on some short story and film analysis we did.
And I think we're going to try to do more of that.
I, you know, I hope we still keep the frame of like how our attitudes kind of changed in those like very pivotal years and media that informed it like a little bit before and a little bit after.
Right now, right now we're calling ourselves a podcast about desire while we figure out the final, you know, the final form.
Maybe there is, but you know, it's a journey, not a destination, if you will.
Yeah, I know exactly how that goes in terms of what I've been doing with this podcast the last couple of months.
So it's an exciting thing to launch a podcast.
And it's fun to see how I've noticed that I've changed.
And maybe it's because I went a year without having a conversation with anybody because of the pandemic.
And then now suddenly I'm having conversations with all my favorite people, you know, several times a week.
So, but it's a fascinating process to start to create something and then interact with an audience in a meaningful way and to see how it changes you as much as you're influenced as much as you influence your audience, you know?
Yeah, it is kind of, I experienced that, especially like with Twitter.
Like my account has like shifted so much.
And it's been like difficult to communicate that like, you know, I do want an audience for my writing.
I'm like very, very grateful for it.
But also part of it is like, it's my Twitter is really like a one-for-one translation of like the changes I've made in my life.
You know, I, what I started off as like an anime av who like posted about like local issues and my family life and a lot about coast to coast AM and paranormal stuff.
And then it evolved as my interests and what was relevant to my day-to-day life evolved.
Did you have you seen the new UFO Netflix docuseries that just came out?
No, is it only?
I think it just came out.
I think it just came out because it was in like the trending category on Netflix.
So usually it's the new stuff.
I watched the first episode today and I thought it was really good.
But I'm not a good person to ask because I am not someone who has like done any sort of extensive research or study into things like Roswell.
So if you're a person that has, then it may just sort of be redundant for you.
I can't remember what it's called.
I think it's called Project Blue Book or something, something like that.
But I thought they did a really nice job putting it together.
But I like all the Netflix original content.
I think they're awesome at producing new content.
Yeah, then they and they're they're good at like getting a lot of it out too.
They're really prolific.
Yeah, and I'm so glad to see that they had the foresight to know that they needed to make that pivot as a business just because they could have kind of done the blockbuster thing, right?
And just sort of leaned on streaming existing content produced by major studios.
And the fact that they had the wisdom to know that in order to like compete in the future, they're going to have to make their own content really positioned them to make stuff that I don't think anybody would have otherwise seen and take risks that I don't think people would have otherwise seen.
Yeah, I think you're right.
I wonder what would have happened if Blockbuster produced their own content.
That's kind of an interesting thought experiment.
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe it would have been like Netflix.
I don't know.
I mean, I think in retrospect, it's easy to see that they should have made a streaming platform and they just didn't do it in time.
But I don't know.
Did you watch the last Blockbuster show on Netflix?
I think that was Netflix too.
No, I worked for a place that wanted to do some kind of like event or project with them.
But I didn't end up seeing the show.
Yeah, I grew up in a very small town in Illinois, and my best friend worked at the Blockbuster.
So it particularly resonated with me to watch that because it's like a cultural phenomenon.
And I think it's like a millennial generational thing.
I don't know if you had this, I don't know where you grew up.
I don't know if you had this experience, but Blockbuster was like the only form of entertainment for 100 miles.
And so it was super nostalgic for me to go and watch a show sort of dedicated to what Blockbuster meant to so many people.
I loved Blockbuster.
I also kind of loved it.
I thought of like Blockbuster and EB games as sort of like the same genre of store or like even Hangout spot because they were like in my mind connected to the internet and sort of this like connection to the outside world.
Like when I was growing up, like anime was rare, for example, like no one knew what it was and it was like really hard to find offline.
And like being able to see like, oh man, like Vampire Hunter D or like, you know, one episode of Sailor Moon on a VHS was like really, really exciting.
Yeah, I um, I know very little about anime, but I absolutely adored Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball growing up.
Does that even count as anime?
Yeah, yeah, of course it does.
Yeah, yeah, I take it that does, but it's kind of hard to find that stuff now.
I bought the Dragon Ball Z seasons on Amazon.
I don't know if you can find the Dragon Ball ones, though, when Goku was a kid.
Those are my favorite, just because they're more comedic.
I'm sure you can.
It's like, it's so weird.
Like this stuff became like so mainstream that a lot of stuff I remember, like, I don't know, like begging my mom to like go on eBay and like look for it for me, like is now just like readily available at like any store on Amazon.
It's like, there's no sense of like this, there's a barrier of entry to get this media.
Do you think Pokemon is kind of what kickstarted it for our generation in terms of exposing people to anime culture?
You know, weirdly, no.
I think like, I feel like there's always been like these one-off programs that get like a cult following, right?
Like Speed Racer and Sailor Moon and Tenchi and Dragon Ball Z, as you mentioned, and Pokemon, Digimon.
But that's kind of a good question though.
Like, I wonder, like, what is it that took it from there's these individual series that everyone knows and become like big products to like you could find a bunch of different anime and it like maybe it was like crunchy roll got more popular or something or it was streaming platforms like Netflix I don't know that's actually that's a really good place to sort Of poke around, I think.
I don't know if this is true or not, but I believe the original Power Rangers series was all in Japan, right?
Do you know anything about that?
Um, I don't, but that's that sound that sounds right.
And I believe that the uh fight scenes in the series are actually the original footage to save time.
So when they're like doing all their those hand motions and stuff and they're in like the full Power Rangers uniform in the original series, it's still it's actually the Japanese actors, and they just overdubbed all the English audio.
That's yeah, that's very, that's very believable.
I feel like that that's those sort of like a strategy in the 90s, lots of like makeshift sort of edits there.
Sure.
Well, and obviously, it was a major pain to edit back then, but I wonder if the reason I thought of Power Rangers is just because I was trying to like think of how Japanese create creative culture somehow got into US culture.
And, you know, I was thinking about that, as well as just generally like with Nintendo and video games and stuff, you kind of saw the like the business opportunity there, I guess, from a from a creative production standpoint.
So maybe it actually started all the way back with like Nintendo or something.
Yeah, and it's probably like super old, right?
Like, I wouldn't be surprised if it like, you know, went back to like the 60s.
But I think like maybe, and I'm just speculating here.
Maybe what changed is there is a thing where like people felt they needed to reposition Japanese media properties, which they knew would perform really well because there's always been this weird symbiotic relationship between, you know, American pop culture and Japanese pop culture that they needed to like reinterpret it for an American audience.
But I feel like, and again, I could be wrong, that there is some something happened where there was just an understanding that like we aboves exist and like American teenagers just like anime as is and it doesn't need to be like remarketed in any way.
I might be making this up though.
It just feels like it's just so much more, like it was just so much more like rare and like, you know, it was very exciting.
You would like there is, I remember the sci-fi channel would had acquired some anime series and like, you know, you waited and waited for like certain movies to air.
And that just says, I mean, of course, the landscape altogether has changed.
Streaming changed everything.
But I think also it's possible that like something else about the way we consume foreign media must have changed that is divorced from the whole streaming thing.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Do you have you ever seen the documentary Dig?
No, what is it about?
So Dig, I don't know what year it came out, mid-2000s, I think 2005, maybe.
And it's by a director, I believe her name is Andy Timminer, but I could be butchering that.
And I think it won the Sundance Film Festival one year, and it features two bands, neither of which have any sort of fame at the beginning of the documentary.
Okay.
And they're like sister bands, best friends.
And one of them is the Dandy Warholes, who you may be familiar with.
They had some hit songs mostly in Europe, but their big hit is We Used to Be Friends.
I think it was the theme song for some major TV show here when we were kids.
But anyway, it features the Dandy Warholes and a band called the Brian Jonestown Massacre.
And basically throughout the documentary, these two bands, you see like one take off and become super famous.
And then you see one sort of devolve because of like drug problems and mental illness.
But the band that devolved, the Brian Jonestown Massacre, in the documentary, did tour Japan.
It was like one of the only countries they toured outside of the United States.
And it was interesting to me when I watched that documentary because all of the Japanese people at this like huge concert for them were like huge fans of this band.
And, you know, when they played in the United States, maybe like 17 people would show up, right?
And it was, I just, I wondered, I was like, what is going on where there's like, there's like this gap where an act like this can totally break in Japan randomly, but not resonate with like any sort of zeitgeist in the United States, you know?
Yeah, you know, it's so weird.
It feels like fame functions very differently in Japan than it does in the United States and like also like South Korea to some extent, I think.
It's, you know, it's something I wish I knew more about.
I remember like, and I don't know if this is as much of a thing anymore, but like when I was growing up, it was sort of like this well-known thing that there was certain, you know, like people will do certain hacks to become like, let's say, like Twitter celebrities or Instagram celebrities.
Well, there was like this, it was like well known that you could position yourself in a certain way and do certain things to become an American like internet celebrity who is big in Japan.
And that would, you know, best case scenario open up doors for you to be flown out to Japan and then be sort of like a micro celebrity within Japan.
Yeah.
It's just like no one talks about it anymore.
And I don't know if I like aged out of it.
And, you know, it's just because like I'm more concerned with like adult things and not like you know, YouTubers and you know, Tumblers, but like, or if it just, if it just sort of stopped happening as sort of like the demographics shifted.
It reminds me of that show.
And I don't want to just keep like throwing Netflix shows at you.
So stop me if it's irritating.
There's a show called Huge in France.
I don't know if you heard of it, but I don't know.
I don't think it did very well.
But I thought it was my wife and I thought it was absolutely hilarious.
And it's basically about this guy who is like a huge comedian in France, very famous stadiums, like Kevin Hartley famous.
And he comes back to the United States in the very beginning of the series because he's trying to rekindle his relationship with his American son.
And nobody knows who the hell he is in the United States.
So he's like going around like I'm huge in France.
It's just like one of those funny things that reminded me of that show to talk about that because I thought about that too, because I own a small advertising agency and it's a lot less expensive to advertise overseas than in the United States because there's less competition.
There are less businesses bidding to reach the same audience.
So the cost for advertising is lower.
And like for you can pay like a penny a click for running ads in India, for example, that in the same ads would cost maybe $1.50 a click here.
Right.
And I was like, man, I could run ads and just become a major celebrity in like, you know, a random town in India.
But like, what use is that to me?
Yeah.
I mean, it's like, I feel like something similar happens, you know, online.
Like you become, you find product market fit in like these weird online niches.
And they don't always like align with your beliefs or your desires or even the spaces you hang out online.
And it's kind of the same as like being big in Japan or big in France or big in some random village in India.
Yeah, absolutely.
So what would you say are your goals in terms of what you're trying to do with your newsletter and your writing?
That's a good question.
I so I use it sort of as a place where I can explore like different things I'm interested in or like flesh out theories that I have.
And also I post like a little bit of fiction, which usually relates to whatever I'm like deep diving.
And, you know, I guess just to keep writing until you come up to become a better writer, I like, I like having an audience.
I like knowing, you know, people care about what I have to say.
And like, especially, you know, when they, when they comment and we can have like a conversation about, you know, what I'm thinking about.
So, I mean, it's a simplistic answer, but it's just, I don't know, it's just kind of fun to have a blog.
I mean, it's really the long and short of it.
Have you written any novels to completion?
I wrote one and it may, maybe it's all right.
You know, I might be too close to it.
I, but I did, I did write one and then I like told people I was going to, you know, post on Substack or like release it in some capacity.
And I just, I don't know.
I like it.
I haven't gotten the guts to do it yet.
So when did you write it?
2019.
Okay.
So right before there was a pandemic and you had all sorts of time to write a novel.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pretty much.
What's it about?
It's so it's sort of about like different subcultures in the Bay Area, but the sort of the overarching story is like a woman's like journey through like rising in the ranks and in tech, which it's, you know, terribly like Uncanny Valley also came out, which they're, they're different pieces, but they're similar in spirit.
So, you know, maybe this works best as an exercise.
But anyway, so the start of the novel, like this woman goes to like this tech bro's apartment and he has these floor-to-ceiling windows.
She's like really impressed by it.
And like the whole book is like a quest for her to replicate his yuppie lifestyle.
And then sort of at the end, realizing like, you know, really what, like the whole journey really was about getting like this, you know, sterile apartment that overlooked a city.
And, you know, you could buy all your groceries in one hit and have all the nice appliances.
And then, you know, it's like, to what end?
You know, you have, there's always someone richer.
There's always some other thing to aspire to.
Right.
That's really interesting.
Well, I would love to read it.
You should publish it one day.
Maybe, maybe I'll, maybe I'll write something better though.
Well, if you, yeah, but if you always operate on that philosophy, then you'll never publish anything.
You'll wind up like Challenger.
Yeah, that's just the feedback loop of whatever.
It kind of reminds me of, I like Kerouac a lot, especially in high school.
I liked Kerouac a lot.
And he wrote a great book called Tristessa.
I'm not sure if you've read it or not.
But in that book, the main character, and it's been so long since I've read it, I don't remember any of the names, but the main character is in love with basically a heroin addict in Mexico.
And the whole entire book, he's just trying to help this woman and connect with her and get her off drugs and be with her.
And then in the end, it's just sort of like Gone with the Wind where he's just like, fuck it, I quit.
But, you know, it just reminds me.
It's funny how we envision this life for ourselves.
And then, you know, if we're fortunate enough to attain it, it's not what we expected.
Yeah.
You know, I think that's like one of these lessons that you hear all the time and then you don't really appreciate it until you experience it.
Like, you know, it's a piece of like, you know, it's like always an inspirational quote or something.
There's always like the version of you that you are now for most people is like an older version of you wanted to get there, but you're still striving.
I saying this out loud now, it feels sort of like disconnected because like people's lives do get worse and you know, not everyone is leveling up all the time, but there, I don't know, there is something to it, like what really is important.
Yeah, that's that's interesting.
I um yeah, I wonder what it would be like to be totally content.
I can't like, I can't imagine a person reaching self-actualization because I can't picture that person doing anything other than sitting still at that point.
It's like if you've got it all, if you if you've got it all dialed in, then wouldn't you just stop everything?
You know, if you if you reach that level of just everything is set, like there always has to be some level of discontent.
And that, you know, you see like figures like Elon Musk, for example, and Jeff Bezos, for example, as controversial as they are, but you see them and they have what you know seems like everything to um us plebes, but they, you know, work 20 hours a day and it's because it's not, it's, I don't know, it's there's something else driving them.
Yeah, I, you know, I, I kind of have the opposite reaction sometimes.
Like, what's, you know, what's the point, right?
Like, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine today, and she was telling me this like sort of like horrifying story about like a director who his wife's father died or something.
And he was in the middle of, you know, he was in the middle of working on this great romance film.
And he kind of shrugged her, he shrugged her off and didn't comfort her in that moment because he was working on this film that is all that's all about like the depths of like human relationships and love.
And I was thinking like, what's the point of creating anything if you don't first foster like your family or your immediate relationships?
Or like it seems like one sort of reflects the other, but you often have to sacrifice one for the other, which is like, it feels really, really weird when you think about it, especially with, I mean, I guess with like tech, it's a little bit different, but with like art, right?
You're creating art about emotion or relationships and you have to sacrifice your relationships to opine on relationships.
It seems like this really weird thing that is super common, but there's something about like, like, why?
Like, what, why do you need to express yourself if it's not something that you're also cultivating or even just having gratitude for in your own life?
Do you think that in a lot of instances, like, let's just take, for example, like genius level people, savants, like whether it's artists, writers, entrepreneurs, do you think that for that type of person, it's incredibly difficult to meet someone and feel a deep, genuine sort of like soulmate level of connection.
So what may happen is, you know, they find someone they're compatible with, but not necessarily, you know, ecstatic about.
And then they dive into their work.
So, you know, I could, I could just, I could fathom someone who's like a brilliant director or a very serious director, you know, getting married, having kids out of like a sense of duty, or this is the stage in life I'm at.
And then, you know, when you need to be there for your family, if it's somebody that you're with just sort of because it was convenient, then, you know, you might be genuinely more interested in your work.
And it's not because you don't seek love or relationships, but it's because the relationships that you have aren't the fulfilling ones.
I mean, I think that could be true, too.
I think that for, I think for a very small number of people, it's hard to connect with others.
But I also kind of think that's a cope.
I think that often when you meet people who say that kind of thing, it's like they aren't, maybe they're not giving people enough leeway.
I think this is like a common problem people have with dating too, right?
Like there's, I don't want to say their standards are too high, but it's more like they're too unforgiving.
And there's like a lack of understanding that you need to compromise a lot to have fulfilling friendships and romantic relationships that I don't think people quite know how to do.
And I don't even think it's like a, we, you know, we have unlimited optionality or whatever.
I don't even think that's really the problem.
I think it's like a sort of, it's just a level of empathy maybe that's missing.
So when I was in high school, I was in a cult, literally, in a cult.
Really?
Yeah, unwittingly at the time.
And, you know, cult is a little bit of a strong word because it was a very small denomination, small intense denomination of Christianity.
And cult isn't really the right word because there was no cult leader, but it was, it had all of the workings of a cult without like, it would be like Jim Jones, his church, the people's temple, without Jim Jones.
And, you know, I had a really good experience in that cult in a lot of ways.
I learned a lot.
Of course, you know, I'm not part of it now.
But one of the things I was at like a Bible study two-week camp in Canada.
And they like divided the boys and the girls up.
And we had like the talk.
And one of the leaders said, or the guy leading the group of teen boys, which I was in, was like, what is marriage about?
And, you know, people raise their hand and said different answers.
Some people said love.
Some people said, I don't know, honoring the word of God.
You know, just the stereotypical stuff you'd expect at like an intense Bible study.
And the guy said it's about commitment.
And I'd be interested to hear what you think about that because that is something that stuck with me, even though I'm totally not religious in the sense that I was, you know, 15 years ago.
But I have found that if you prioritize the commitment, a lot of the other stuff comes.
Like, people think that they have to fall in love and then commit.
But I think that you fall in and out of love repeatedly if you're in a long-term relationship with someone.
And that through the commitment and the loyalty, that it catalyzes that love and fosters that, you know, sort of inverted.
But I don't know.
What do you think?
No, I think that's true.
And I think that's also what keeps people in bad relationships or abusive relationships.
Yeah, obviously there's a line, but just because you don't like the fact that she chews with her mouth open, you know, doesn't mean you should break out.
I think, yeah, I think I, but I think that's, I think that's right because it becomes difficult to know, you know, what is she chews with her mouth open, but she's my wife and I love her.
And then what's like, you know, she's constantly gaslighting me or I suspect she's cheating on me, but I don't have proof.
You know, there's like all, there's all sorts of random things, but I think it's precisely because like if you do enter a marriage with that mindset of like commitment is the most important thing, you do find yourself falling in and out of love with your partner over and over and over again.
And the intimacy you build once you, you know, you allow them to be their full selves is, you know, really difficult to replicate and you don't really want to.
And I think that's what makes marriage so serious.
You know, it's not even from like a religious perspective or, you know, like a social order perspective, but there's like some, there's like an emotional bond there that is really hard to break.
And it, of course, happens in any long-term relationship.
So what are your thoughts on monogamy just as a concept generally?
I mean, I'm pro-monogamy.
I have like pretty like conventional, conventional views on that.
You know, I think I sort of have a problem with polyamory, especially like the culture of polyamory.
I feel like it's it's a it's a cope for like a lot of different things.
I think there's a select few people who like really, you know, really small number who do it well.
Like I have a, you know, at this point, a lifelong friend who for as long as I've known her has been in two relationships.
And I never thought it was a like a lifestyle that I would endorse or like think works, but I think it works for her.
But I also think she's like one of like a hundred people in the country for whom it's like a legitimately good choice.
And I don't think my issue more like comes down to like, she's, she's in the like the extreme minority.
And like we should like chill out with like the Jezebel articles instructing people on how to live that life because most people would be happier making compromises and sacrifices and like a pretty like vanilla monogamous relationship than they would, you know, having contracts and rulebooks and trying to finagle some alternative model.
So what do you think the, what do you think the future of dating culture is going to, and I know you wrote an article about this, so I'm trying to tee it up because I want to hear your thoughts about it.
But what do you think the future of dating culture is in the in in in America over the course of the next 10 years?
So I have my theory is definitely that we like ping pong between reactions.
We have like long periods of like building up, you know, more and more progressive and then more and more conservative.
And I think that we've sort of reached like peak sort of fluidity with relationships and we're going to start becoming a little bit more regressive.
And I've called this sex negativity and I know that that actually, you know, refers to a very like specific school of thought.
But I don't really, I don't really know what else to call it.
I mean, I, the, the always brilliant Mary Harrington referred to it as a sexual counter revolution.
And I think that's actually maybe a more concise way to put it.
But we're definitely, we're definitely going to have some kind of backlash to this anything goes attitude.
People, I mean, people feel hurt by it.
And there's, we've like pretty much eroded all of the structures and systems to have, you know, that allow people to make sense of dating.
And people who can offer that are going to be seen as novel and offering, you know, they become natural leaders.
We're, I think we're entering, you see it online a lot, but I think we're in, we're going to enter a period of like a new kind of moralizing.
Like the, you know, the woke stuff is kind of getting played out and it's, it's going to, it's going to flip.
That's interesting.
Now, I'm not, I'm not versed enough in cultural, American cultural history, but did we see something similar happen after sort of like the summer of love hippie 60s revolution?
Obviously, politically, there were a lot of conservative leaders elected, but I wasn't around to like see what was really happening culturally because, you know, there's sort of this anything goes late 60s, early 70s thing that had that happened.
And I'm not sure that when that happened, there was like a hyper-conservative backlash on a cultural level.
And we saw it politically, but not necessarily culturally.
I guess they're related.
So you sort of see it like bubble up, but I think, I mean, I think the mistake is people, you know, people assume that these are like 10 year long periods, right?
I think the issue is it's much longer, right?
Like it's not necessarily like, you know, it could be that we've been in sort of one fluid movement since 1968.
And you see these little, you always see like these little reactions sort of like come up and then fall, you know, fall down, but they're not really anything.
But my sense is that it's where we've been experiencing a prolonged sexual revolution.
And now we're coming, we're sort of coming upon the moment where it's going to be flipped on its head.
It was interesting to me in your article how you associated it at the very beginning with, you know, during the next financial crisis or after the next financial crisis.
Why was it that you linked the sort of sex negativity, cultural, the sex counterculture revolution to a financial crisis specifically?
Because if you look at Germany, you know, when the Third Reich came to power, it was sort of like a hyper-conservative movement, hyper-German traditional movement that happened.
And it was, it was in light of, you know, 30% unemployment and financial crisis.
So why is it that you've linked the two?
I mean, it's pretty much the same logic.
Like as people like become, you know, we've had a lot of financial hardship, but I don't think we've had, you know, at the level of like 2008, for example.
Like, I think that we, you know, it's, it's, it's possible that we'll experience something of, you know, similar, similar magnitude.
And you, we've, there's no, there's no sort of support systems or social or, you know, social systems to, for people to fall back on.
And this, you know, so naturally people are going to be looking for something, some kind of support.
Interesting.
So in times of, it's kind of like, I remember when I first started flying on airplanes, which was when I was in college, I like never prayed in college, but I was scared, you know, the first five or six times I was on a plane.
And I remember like praying when like there was too much turbulence and thinking to myself, like, why the hell am I praying?
I never pray.
And I wonder if there's just some sort of like psychological phenomena where when the closer we get to like a moment of desperation, the more inclined we are to just immediately default to like core values or like, you know, I don't know, some foundation that even if we consciously have moved on from it, it's still it's still like our operating system, you know?
Yeah, I mean, I think that the more the more desperate people get.
And also, I mean, the other thing is, you know, there's no, there's no sort of communities that are, that people can seek refuge in.
And you, you see it a lot with like the most sort of disenfranchised people that there's all these different expressions of wanting community and structure.
One, you know, one kind of interesting example is, you know, people, often people who are like in poverty or like they, you know, they really need to feed their family, they'll get sucked into multi-level marketing schemes.
And, you know, on the surface level, it seems very obvious.
It's like they're not thinking straight.
They're being duped by these scams.
It seems like quick cash.
But what I think gets missed in that story a lot is MLMs are like usually very Christian.
They're very ordered.
They're almost, they're a little bit fascist, kind of, you know, there's, there's something about it that's like very, very strict.
And, you know, it's not simply like sell, you know, sell these knives and you'll make a quick buck and you'll become a girl boss or, you know, whatever thing.
You know, you'll finally be able to get out of your situation.
Another piece of it is like you, there's a clear set of goals.
You have built-in friends.
You have built-in mentors.
You, you know, you live in a certain way.
There's rules.
And it's kind of like why you mentioned you're in a cult, like why people get sucked into cults or why certain ideologies appeal to people.
It gives you, it, you know, imposes order on a chaotic life.
That's really interesting.
Order Abkhael.
Yeah, that's, man.
So I'm scared about when the next financial crisis happens because I think that we might be on the precipice of some very interesting things to happen politically if that were to take place.
I don't anticipate the reincarnation of an old fascist system, but I think that if some sort of like tyranny or authoritarianism were to take hold in the United States, it would be very novel in its form.
But maybe that's just all speculation, but it seems.
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you.
I'm definitely not one of these people who thinks that there's like some specter of fascism always around the corner or that it'll happen.
We're going to turn into Nazi Germany the minute our economy starts to cripple.
And I think that's ridiculous.
But I do think the kernel of truth in those kind of predictions is sort of like the low-hanging fruit of people seeking safety in something.
I think, you know, I think it's sort of more likely that we're going to have some serious, you know, some serious problems with tech.
And like, you know, if we do have some kind of like authoritarian problem, it's probably going to be under the guise of like large tech companies or, you know, something to that effect then.
And kind of the problem of like needing technology to survive in the world and there being like, you know, an anti-tech, counterculture, tech sort of controlling us.
And then there's like a techno optimist movement of like smaller tech companies.
But that's anyway, that's where I get into sort of crazy people talk, but that's kind of crazy people talk is welcome.
When reality is crazy, the truth sounds crazy.
Yeah.
I mean, I think like, you know, a lot of anti-tech people sort of confuse, you know, like the big tech companies with, you know, like startup people or even, you know, crypto people.
And I think those are two like very different populations.
And, you know, sure, like you, if you're afraid of like AWS hosting every website under the sun or you feel, you know, threatened by that, you know, not to pick on Amazon, but that you can now pay with your palm in brick and mortar Amazon stores.
I don't think that's so absurd.
But there's a difference between like those behemoth, you know, of companies and the small, very optimistic startups that might be like annoying or like kind, you know, they might be yuppies in their own right.
But there's, there's a real, there's a real difference in spirit there.
And then there's even like another group.
There's sort of like the grifters who aren't in it for like some optimistic, crazy worldview or the love of tech or whatever.
It's there in it for the cash.
And they're all there, but they're all different kinds of tech people.
And I think we're going to see like more tension with that as those like continue to get conflated and as big tech becomes more present and maybe more oppressive in our lives.
Well, yeah, I think ultimately what it boils down to is that the tech isn't the problem.
It's how it's used in the influence.
Like I have no problem with innovative technology or software solutions.
But the question to me is, all right, well, if single entities consolidate enough power, then it could become problematic.
My biggest concern today is simply censorship.
I don't even care that Google has an astronomical amount of data on me to the point where every ad I see, I want to buy it.
That part doesn't bother me, but it does bother me that if a number of people report me on Twitter, then I could be just banned forever.
And I hope that we can get past that, but I don't know what the solution is.
I'm not an expert in that.
Yeah, it's, you know, it's difficult.
I mean, I do think Google having enough, or, you know, if not Google, then TikTok or, you know, Facebook having a lot of data on you, so much data that they can kind of, you know, predict what you're thinking or so it seems is kind of problematic because then if like a certain disposition or affinity becomes you know becomes problematic then they already know that you what you slot into and there's no kind of hiding from it and there's no opportunity to like role play as something else um and
And I like hadn't considered that either until like a friend told me when he was like, look, like you might not be hiding anything in the sense that like you're ashamed of the emails you send or what your Google search is.
But if, you know, if they collect enough data where like this can create a composite of a type of person who somehow becomes maligned or maybe, you know, maybe is like considered more likely to commit a certain type of crime, then there's no you have no opportunity for privacy.
Or, you know, maybe if you you are that maybe you did commit a certain crime or you are a certain type of person and you it really is malicious.
There's something to be said about having the freedom to like clean up your act or change who you are, you know, hide from your actions in some sense.
And then, of course, the more obvious issue is like innocent people being convicted for, you know, crimes or being stereotyped in ways that aren't necessarily true.
And, you know, whatever, whatever iteration of this issue.
Yeah, that makes sense.
You know, didn't they don't they have laws in Europe where you have the right to be forgotten?
Yeah, it's too bad they don't have them in the United States.
Yeah, I wonder I wonder why I wonder if it would I wonder if it would be like a constitutional violation.
Like a freedom is probably a freedom of speech violation to force a company to delete information.
I don't know.
Seems to me like a very reasonable thing to make a law.
I'm not, I'm not much for following in Europe's footsteps by any means, but I uh, you know, sometimes they do things that I think make a lot of sense.
I mean, it's it's interesting, is like it's really hard to like sue for libel.
Also, like, there's you really like it's in the United States, and I'm not, I'm not an expert on the law by any by any means at all.
Like, this is again just like me, sort of peanut gallery speculation.
And I don't know anything about Europe either, but it feels like it's very possible to just, I mean, like, gossip is to some extent like legally protected.
Um, you know, we think like, oh, libel and slander, but it's like incredibly hard to prosecute and get things taken down, which I think you know, it's probably part of the reason why the whole Gawker lawsuit was so, you know, magnificent in a sense, because it's finally there's some like justice for this like impossible crime.
Yeah, Peter Thiel is a uh, he's certainly a dynamo, yeah.
Um, you know, no, you know, no, um, no, like moral or like value judgment on the outcome or the strategy, but just sort of from a perspective of like, shit, this is really hard, and he he accomplished it.
Yeah, I uh, did you uh did you read Ryan Holiday's book on that, Conspiracy?
Uh, yeah, I really liked it.
I love Ryan Holiday, he um, he's such a talented guy, and um, I really love Robert Green.
I'm not sure if you read any of that, but of course, you know, uh, Ryan Holiday was Robert Greene's research assistant for a number of reasons, yeah, yeah, good stuff.
Did you read um, I guess that you write about relationships?
Um, maybe you've read The Art of Seduction.
Did you read that book?
No, it's it's one of these books that I keep buying copies of, though.
And I'm like, shit, I should, I should, I should read it.
There's like a few books like that, um, but no, I haven't.
It's um, it's awesome.
I mean, I really like uh Robert Green because he's sort of figured out like a template that works for him and he just keeps making new content in interesting categories using that that that setup.
And um, the thing, like when I was younger, I used to like endeavor and have ambition to read as much as many books as possible.
But as I've gotten older, I've sort of started shifting to instead of reading new content as much as possible, I try to reread the good stuff over and over again, you know, because I change.
So, it's almost like I'm reading it again.
And Robert Green is one of those authors who I really appreciate because you can go back and read the 48 Laws of Power and it speaks to you differently every time.
Yeah, you know, what I what I find uh like particularly interesting about him is also sort of like the like the meta story.
Like he always seems to be spoken about as like a soothsayer, somehow like having like more, like more into like an almost supernatural amount of insight on the human condition, which is like really well.
They probably had something to do with that, yeah.
I mean, it's impressive, yeah, it's really impressive.
Um, I wish I could figure out how he did that.
I love Ryan Holiday's book, uh, Trust Me, I'm Lying.
It's a little dated now, but it's got some classic principles in it.
And based on what he wrote in that book about marketing and sort of his Machiavellian approach, frankly, to branding and marketing, I could see that he may have had a heavy hand in either directly or inadvertently and Robert Green becoming the sort of soothsayer.
I mean, it's like one of the number one books read in prisons, 48 Laws of Power.
And so it's just funny how it's like, how do you tap that market?
I mean, is like my question is that, like, is that even true?
Like, it feels like that's like one of the most important things.
Right.
And that could have just been made up for guys like me to be like, I got to read this.
Well, that's what kind of got it, you know, got me interested because I, you know, I heard that somewhere.
And it's like, I don't know if it's true.
And like, I don't know if it's just like one of these things that like just gets said, but like that there could be sort of a rumor like that about someone who's like pretty recent is right is really impressive.
So tell me a little bit about your fascination with the supernatural.
I know very little about it.
I just said it exists.
Your fascination, that is.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm really into the occult.
I was like really into like paganism and different, you know, different like occult expressions when I lived in Texas.
Okay.
I don't.
Oh, I used to live in Austin.
Very cool.
Yeah.
I it and Ryan Holiday is also just I think he's in bass drop.
But I think I'm slightly more interested in the people it attracts.
But I do think there's like something to the idea of like manifestation.
i you know i i like i like fables and stuff and fairy tales and it's particularly like stories about fairies um quite a bit uh you know the the aesthetics of of both of these things
um i i mean i think my my fascination is just because it's it's enchanting um it's i think it's probably similar to like you know someone's interest might be in like video games or to circle back to an earlier topic anime it's like a very nice uh place of fantasy um that you know like maybe there's something to it but even if there isn't it's it's really interesting to like conceive of a world where where things work differently have you ever dabbled in magic yeah totally i mean
this i i used to talk about it a lot more i just again like speaking of cults i was in a coven that you know was maybe a cult maybe wasn't um and it's down in austin actually um and we did like all sorts of like rituals and stuff and it was i mean it was harmless stuff it was like enchanting a necklace or honoring um a certain you know like time of year things like that um and whether or not it was like real magic what i thought was really
striking was like how powerful like people coming together um and focusing their energy on one thing is um and like how you could really trick your mind or like you know maybe it's magic um into believing something um and it's i mean it's it's crazy
did it work yeah i mean it worked to the extent that you like you at least believe something's happening you you know like you believe that uh you know like your divinatory uh practice is really speaking to you or you believe uh that you're really shielding yourself from negative energy and you feel it and i think part of the reason that you feel it is because everyone else feels it um so again like you know who knows if it's if it's real or not but it is it is powerful for everyone to be on the same page
in such an intense way i'm getting the impression that you've distanced yourself from it some uh since then uh what why is that i don't know if i have um i just i i mean i just don't know if i if i um believe it or not uh i i think you know i i maybe this is part of what i'm known for i'm like perpetually a tourist and things and i don't know if i i i'm i'm very like agnostic to everything like it might be true it also might not be um
but i you know i'm here for the experience um and i i you know find with the occult um and also like supernatural things in general like even um you know like cryptids and aliens and ghosts and things things of that nature it's i i have moments of like real true belief but i you know i couldn't say definitively one way or the other if i if i really buy it because um there's so much power and just being around other people who believe it but
it becomes hard to tell yeah i know i know exactly what you mean so where can people find you um usually they can find me on twitter i tend to like spontaneously deactivate uh but never for long um at default underscore friend and then on sub stack at default friend dot sub stack dot com Thank you so much for coming on.
I really enjoyed having you.
You're a great guest.
Thank you.
Thanks for the invitation.
I really appreciate it.
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