Scott Rouse | What's The Difference Between A Sociopath And A Psychopath And How To Tell | OAP #33
Chase Geiser is joined by Scott Rouse.
Scott is a behavior analyst and body language expert with a focus on healthcare. He holds multiple certificates in advanced interrogation training and has been trained along side the FBI, Secret Service, U.S. Military Intelligence, and Dept. of defense.
His extensive training, education, and practice of nonverbal communication has made Scott an expert and consultant to healthcare companies as well as law enforcement, Fortune 500 CEO’s, doctors, attorneys, executives, wealth managers, financial advisors, and entertainers.
After receiving a diagnosis of Thyroid Cancer and experiencing the rapid changes in healthcare from a patients perspective, he instantly recognized the overlooked, yet blatant, causes of patient mistrust, fear, and frustration. In other words, he found the problems that cause more lawsuits and once successful practices to fail.
Now Scott speaks to and trains healthcare professionals, showing them what these problems are and most importantly how to fix them. From your bedside manner to the way your waiting area is setup and looks, Scott covers everything science shows us that works to make patients feel more comfortable and confident in their healthcare situation.
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Chase's Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/realchasegeiser
Scott's Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/ScottRouse3
Scott's Website: https://www.ScottRouse.com
I train law enforcement and the military in interrogation and body language.
And I'm fascinated with psychopaths.
That's one of my favorite things to talk about.
I think that's what we're going to talk about.
Okay, good.
Cause I thought this was what we're going to talk about.
So that's one of my favorite things to talk about and discuss.
So how did you get into how did you get into the body language expertise field?
Because you don't hear a lot of people, you know, like when they're kids say, I want to grow up.
When I grow up, I want to be a professional understander and a consultant of body language.
It's kind of like a new thing, especially in like the sociopath, psychopath sector.
I mean, there was really kind of like, what was it, the 60s, 70s, 80s when that sort of started developing in the intelligence community.
Yeah.
Well, I started when I was actually, I did start when I was little.
My dad's a doctor and he was the doctor in this little town of Louisa, Kentucky.
And my mom, and we lived right next, it was so small that we lived right next door to the school.
And just a couple of blocks down was the hospital, which was this, this big house.
It was actually a couple of houses stuck together, I believe, if I remember correctly.
And my mom would get my little brother and he bring, she'd bring him to the school and get my sister and I, we walked out of the hospital and had lunch with my dad.
And then one afternoon, or you know, one lunchtime we were down there, I saw a couple of guys from my class in his office waiting to see him.
And I said, as we're sitting there eating, I said, there's Robert Bellamy and Billy Elkins.
And I said, what are they doing in here?
My dad said, well, let's take a look.
And he went.
Okay, well, Robert has an earache and he's been up all night with his mom.
And Billy's not sick.
He's pretending to be sick, you know, for whatever reason, skipping school or whatever, but there's nothing wrong with him.
He's just pretending like he's sick.
And I said, well, how do you, as a six-year-old or seven-year-old?
I said, well, how do you know that?
He said, well, let's take a look at Robert.
So I said, okay.
He said, see how Robert's sitting on that.
He's both on these little benches that were in his office.
They're in the waiting room.
He said, see how Robert's leaned up against his mom?
He's got his hand on his ear.
I said, yeah.
He said, well, that tells me that his ear hurts and he wants to be next to his mom.
He said, let's look at his mom.
I said, okay.
And he said, see how her hair, because we knew her, so see how her hair isn't, isn't done.
You know, you can tell she hasn't had time to do her hair.
Yeah, she looks so rough.
You know, she's not wearing makeup and she doesn't look the way we usually she usually looks.
And I said, yeah.
He said, that tells me she's been up all night with him because his ear hurts.
I said, oh, okay.
He said, let's take a look at Billy.
I said, okay.
He said, now look at Billy's mom.
And he said, see how her hair looks all pretty and it's all done.
And she's got on makeup and she looks well rested and she's sitting up straight.
And I said, yeah.
He said, that tells me she got a good night's sleep.
I said, okay.
I said, well, what about Robert?
He said, well, you see how he's dangling his legs on that little bench?
And I said, yeah.
He said, I see how he's going through that magazine.
And I said, yeah.
He said, see how his eyebrows are up?
And he's looking at that magazine.
I said, yeah, that means he's awake and he feels fine.
Now, here's what's going to happen.
In just a minute, he's going to get his mother's going to say something to him.
And then she's going to pat him on the shoulder.
He's going to look up at her from the side and he's going to make a frowny face.
And his eyebrows are going to come down.
He's going to look at him from the side.
Then he'll say something to her.
And then they'll talk for just a second.
Then he'll go back the way he was with a frowny face.
Then not long after that, he'll start dangling his legs again.
His eyebrows will go up.
He'll have that pleasant looking smile or look on his face, not a smile.
And I said, okay.
And that happened like within two minutes.
And I thought, oh my God, my dad is magic.
You know, what is, you know, what is this wizardry you know, but, you know, and so I was fascinated from that, from that day for that moment forward.
I was like, how can he tell the future?
How can he tell what's happening with that?
And he started explaining things to me as I grew up.
So he was seeing things from the healthcare aspect, you know, being a doctor.
And he always brings me books and, you know, read things to me, tell me about studies and who was the person to read and stuff as I grew up.
So that's, that's really the way I got into it.
Then I found, you know, like Paul Ekman's books and started reading those.
And, you know, the first body language books that came out, I always made sure I got those as a kid and read all gone all of them.
Or were they legitimate?
When we look back on them now, it wasn't that they were bullshit.
They were just not, didn't have all the information yet.
You know, people were just now, you know, the study of body language for politics really started with the Kennedy Nixon election in those when TV became debates.
Part of the part of the campaign strategy then.
Yeah.
But, you know, there was a lot of, you know, in World War II with the Intelligence Committee and stuff, there were psychological profiles of different, you know, leaders of major players and stuff like that too.
So I could see how, you know, the Intelligence Committee would want to get into it pretty early.
But if you watch those things where they start talking about UFOs and stuff, and they have that one, there's that classic of, I can't remember the general's name, when UFOs like Area 5th, what was it?
Was the UFO that crashed out in the desert?
Roswell.
Roswell.
They start talking to this really high-ranking official.
And his body language is all over the road, man.
You know, he's worried.
Well, about some of it.
They said it was a weather balloon, right?
That was kind of the official narrative?
It was a conscious weather balloon or I don't know.
Yeah, who knows.
But take a look at him and watch the way he acts, and you'll say, oh, something's not right here about all this.
What is not right?
I don't know why he was acting all squirrely, but he was definitely acting squirrely or looked squirrely, you know, because he didn't know not to do specific things that let you know that he may not be truthful.
It may not be being truthful.
Well, maybe, you know, when you're in that sort of position, as long as you say what you're supposed to say, you don't really give a damn if they believe you.
That's true.
You know?
That's true.
Yeah.
You know, you're sitting up there.
It's like, yeah, you know, it was just a weather balloon.
Yeah, that's what it looked like.
That's what I was saying.
What do you think about this whole UFO thing to me?
Because it seems like if the UFO thing was legit, we would have, you know, amazing footage of it.
And it's always grainy, terrible content.
Like, it seems more reasonable to me that what we're seeing are probably, you know, advanced military technology, either domestic or foreign, and that we're just picking it up.
And it's not like an alien, but it's us.
I think a lot of it is that.
I think a lot of it is governmental stuff.
People are seeing the same things.
Now, on the other hand, people are seeing the same thing they've seen for years and years and years and years and years from back in the, you know, 30s and 40s and 50s when they report those things.
Those are the things that make me go, what the heck is that about?
But it just makes too much sense for us to be, for those things to be from here, be it American, Russian, you know, Chinese, whatever, where they're from, to be drones or something that are really advanced.
I mean, think about when the jet first happened.
People could not believe that, you know, the Russians and the Germans were like, well, something's up, because they were doing the same type of thing.
But when those first started showing up, they were loud, they were fast, there were no propellers, and people couldn't figure out what was happening.
It could be that same situation where we're seeing these, we don't know what they are.
They're quiet, they're fast, there are no jet engines on them.
So it could be just, it could be that.
Who knows, you know?
Who knows?
But I can't imagine.
Well, yeah.
You can say what you want about it, man.
Or nothing at all.
Well, we did a thing on the behavior panel.
Oh, you did?
Okay.
Oh, yeah.
Tell me a little bit about that.
I want to make sure that we plug you.
Oh, well, the behavior panel is, there are four of us, three of us are interrogators, and one of us is a body language expert, and that's Mark Bowden and Chase Hughes and Greg Hartley.
And we, what we did was when, when COVID hit, we'd been hanging, you know, we've been hanging around going, you know, we got my buddy, Greg, who's my business partner.
He said, he, oh, Mark Bowden is British.
And he said, hey, mate, we should do a video.
I was like, oh, yeah, we should do a video.
And then Chase Hughes said, hey, man, we should do a video.
And I said, okay, great.
So I was talking to Greg, and Greg's always wanted to do one of those, he wanted to do a YouTube thing where we just do one video and pick out these people who said they'd seen Bigfoot and UFOs and talk about those from an interrogator's perspective, from a body language perspective.
And so Greg said, well, gather everybody up, and we'll, let's just record a show.
We'll put it on all of our channels.
So all four of us got together, and we recorded it and put it up on YouTube.
And, man, we got a lot of views from it.
So he said, we should do this again.
So we did another one.
We said, we should start a channel.
And we did another one.
So now we get on some of them, we get millions of views.
You know, we're averaging around 200,000 views each one or 300,000, something like that.
But we get a whole lot of views.
We've got 325,000 subscribers in less than, you know, a year and a half, which is pretty good, I think.
So if I want to be on your show, all I have to do is lie about seeing a UFO.
Pretty much, you know, or lie about politics or something.
Yeah, we look at it.
We look at everything from true crime to I've been picked up by a UFO to the Bob Lazar to anything.
Now, has there ever been an instance of somebody telling the truth that you thought going in was going to be totally full of shit?
Like you're like, oh, this guy.
And then you watch the language.
You're like, whoa.
Like, you know, was there anything that surprised you that was, that was being, someone was being honest?
Well, since we're talking about UFOs, there's a guy named Tom Reed, and he was on the Netflix special on UFOs called the Berkshire's UFO.
And so he's on there talking about how he saw UFO and all these things that happened.
There was this woman on there as well.
I can't remember her name.
I think her last name's Green.
And she was saying, oh, here's what happened to me.
And I watched that and I was like, I don't, it looks like they're telling the truth.
I believed them.
So I called Greg.
I said, hey, man, I didn't say, I think I believe these people.
I said, watch this Netflix show.
You might like it.
Then he called up and said, I think I believe these.
I think this guy's telling the truth.
So is the woman.
So we did a whole show on the woman.
I said, how we believed what she said.
You know, we broke down.
I mean, what we do is we don't just, we come from four different perspectives.
So it's not just like saying, oh, this happened.
So they're lying.
None of that.
You know, there are no absolutes when you scratch your nose or do one thing.
It doesn't mean you're lying or telling the truth.
It just happens to be something you're doing.
So that's the way we break them down.
So after we did the one on the woman, I can't remember her name.
It's killing me.
Then we got an email from this guy, Tom Reed.
He said, Hey, I was on that show too.
You want to talk to me?
We were like, Yeah, we'd love to talk to you.
He said, I'll come on your show.
He said, Oh, yeah, I dare you.
So he came on and everything.
And we talked to him for, I think we made it to two episodes.
And man, this guy, I think he saw what he thinks he saw.
We all thought that.
We all didn't see anything at all that said any different.
I did a show with Eric Honley.
And there was, and we, and Greg and I talked to a guy who says he's seen this big UFO.
And Eric Conley has a great podcast.
It's called Unstructured.
And this guy's name is Rich.
I believe his name is Rich.
And he and his description, what he saw sounds really, he described what he saw the same way Tom described what he saw and the effects it had on him afterwards.
Really similar.
But we saw Eric had interviewed this guy yesterday and he said, hey, you guys want to talk to this guy?
And we're like, yeah, we want to talk to this guy.
So we watched this interview from yesterday.
Then we got to get on today.
And then Greg and I got to ask him some questions that we sort of, we didn't put him through the ring or anything, but his story was the same spot on each time from the emotional side of it to the technical side of it to everything.
His descriptions all were the very same.
And it looks to me like that guy's telling the truth too.
So there's something going on.
It's almost the same then it comes off as rehearsed, right?
So there's almost a balance.
Well, this happened to him in 2016.
So he's told the story a lot.
But there are things you can look for that let you know that that person is, he would have embellished a lot more.
And each time you tell that story, you'll add stuff to it.
And his wife and his children were there too.
And his wife was in the room with him.
And she said it's more like a triangle.
He said, no one, the way he described the differences in what they saw, he stayed with what he said.
He didn't say, oh, yeah, it was more like this.
That doesn't mean he's lying or telling the truth.
But that was just one of the little things we put over in the pilot says, okay, this guy's staying with the story.
This seems true.
Everything from a body language perspective, anyway, he was completely honest.
I have no doubt this guy saw this, which makes me think it's not from outer space, but it's something military.
He at least believes what we saw, right?
He did see it.
Yeah.
That is, it's different.
Yeah, that's fascinating.
Exactly.
Whatever you interpret, but he doesn't think it was from, he doesn't know what it was.
You know, I don't think he thinks, excuse me, it was from space or anything, but he doesn't either.
But then again, he said, I don't know.
And they both talked about how it changed their perspective on life after this experience.
Tom's experience was a lot different than this other experience, but they both spoke about it in the same sort of terms of how it was life-changing.
They don't see the world the same again because it was so different than anything they'd ever seen or experienced.
That's when you can hear when somebody goes down that road and they start explaining religion and all these other things and why it makes you question things.
Then you go, hmm, why would you even think about saying that?
you know and the expressions they're using when they're doing it let you know they're or suggest denote they're telling you the truth so everything this guy did and said looks spot on as well so so you're coming up you're about ready to graduate from high school what do you do who me yeah you oh oh yeah i went to uh transylvania university in lexington kentucky dracula Yeah, yeah.
They actually had it.
They had a what'd you study, though?
Did you study like a criminal justice or something like that?
No, not at all.
No, I was into uh did music there and uh English, you know, literature.
I forgot that you had been an up producer at one point.
You still are.
Yeah.
And that's from there.
My roommate there was a guy named Dickie Spears.
And Dickie was telling me how great Berkeley College of Music was.
He said, you ought to check out Berkeley.
You'd have the best time.
So to make a long story short, it was in Boston and he was moving back there when he graduated.
He was a couple of years older than me.
And he said, I'm going back.
You ought to come with me.
I was like, okay.
So, you know, I talked to my parents about it.
They're like, you want to what?
So I'm going to go to music school.
This, you know, to make a long story short, my parents have always been very supportive of anything my brother and sister and I ever wanted to do.
They're, okay, if that's what you think you got to do, we'll, we'll support you.
And I ended up going to Berkeley, College of Music.
And to make a long story short, ended up being a record producer and a studio musician, a studio musician, then a record producer.
What instrument?
So guitar and drums.
No kidding.
Yeah.
Well, that's cool, man.
What made you?
So how do you go from, how do you go from being like a studio musician and a producer to actually being involved with the intelligence community?
Well, you got to do them both at the same time, sort of.
That's one of those where you don't, yeah, you don't pick one.
Still going down that road of human behavior, which helped us a lot in that business because we could tell who was who was being honest about signing an act we had.
Are they just saying that to sign this act and get them out of the way to put their act to make sure it didn't mess with theirs?
Or were they being honest with us?
So they really want to help.
So that those that skill set helped a lot.
And I got really lucky from hanging out with the people that I fell in with.
Michael Johnson, Maurice Starr, Eban Kelly, and Jimmy Randolph.
They all treated me so good.
And they were all really the great producers and musicians.
And I really got lucky there because they showed me everything, how you go about doing things, how you approach things, the business side of things.
And it really helped me a lot.
So it was like a when I quit going to Berkeley, I was just, I was just doing sessions all the time.
And I went to my guidance counselor.
I said, hey, man, look, I'm trying to come to school.
I'm trying to do this and that, but I'm doing this record over here.
I've got sessions.
I'm trying to come to school.
He said, don't come here anymore.
You don't, you know, you don't, what are you doing?
And I was like, what?
And he said, you're doing what people go over here to go to school to learn how to do.
You're already doing it, man.
You don't need this.
That was the great thing about Berkeley is there's musicians run that school.
So it was, so he was like, so, yeah, you, you don't feel bad about that.
If you want to teach, that's one thing.
But if you don't want to teach, you want to be a session guy or producer, dude, you're doing that already.
Quit this.
Don't do this.
Go do that.
That's what you want to do.
Go do that.
And I was like, I couldn't believe it.
You know, that the guy was that cool about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And did you ever go back?
I've gone back.
No, I didn't get back and go back to school, but I've gone back and given talks and things like that.
It seems like all the smart people drop out.
I wish I was a lot of them.
A lot of them do.
I wish that I had made something so cool when I was in college that I couldn't finish.
Oh, well.
Well, no, I just, I felt like I almost got kicked out because he was like, dude, don't come back here.
I was like, what are you talking about?
My parents are my dad.
Do you remember the first time that you were hired to interview a suspect and what that was like?
Do you remember like your first one?
It was somebody that stole that had stolen money and they thought it stolen money from, I can't tell you the place where it was because, you know, you can't tell.
But someone was in, was, was, there was a question about where this person has been taking money from this company.
And they said, will you talk to this person?
I said, you bet I will.
So I went and talked to him.
And that's when I really started getting into the interrogation side of it about the time I got to Berkeley.
Well, when people start with the word interrogation, they think like waterboarding.
That's not what it is.
No, no, no.
No.
No, that's a whole other scene.
It's none of that stuff where they're pounding all the time.
Where's the girl?
Where's the kid?
Nobody does that.
Because I got that person.
Your approach to that has to be something where that person wants to stay there with you because all they have to say is four words.
I want my lawyer.
Boom.
And they're gone.
And you got to leave.
And that's, you got to do that.
So what you got to say to me.
You get interrogated then.
Oh, what you got to say before you get interrogated is I want to talk to a lawyer.
If you ever get arrested, I don't care what happened.
You get a lawyer.
Don't talk to an interrogator because they want to, they'll, because even if you didn't do it, it's still going to be a hassle.
You know, it's still going to be, they'll be asking you questions.
It may get a little ugly.
If you didn't do it, if that interrogator is good, then you'll be okay.
But if you did do it, they're going to find out most likely.
So I get you to say it.
So you walk in and you walk in and sit down with this guy.
Like, how does it go?
This first guy that you that you first guy.
Well, it's, it's classic.
It's called the read technique.
And one of the first things they teach you in that technique is one, there's the read technique is its own thing.
And you can, and I look at that technique as almost like a muscle car where you can, for example, there, there are these certain steps you take and there's a protocol you follow.
But for each one of these steps in the protocol, if it were a car, you could have the kind of wheels you wanted on it.
You could paint flames on the side of it and make the windows dark and you could, you know, goose it up real big or you could make it really low, a low rider, make it really cool, whatever you want to do.
So you build different types of interrogations out of that.
That's the way I see that.
So when I'm training interrogators, that's the one I start with that as the concept as you sort of, for each person you're dealing with, you got to decide which way you're going.
Are you going to come in in a loud old Mustang with all this souped up and all the stuff on it or like a low rider that does that bounce and stuff?
Or are you just going to do, are you just going to be in, you know, like a, you know, a Ford escort?
Are you going to be in a, you know, an old car, a hoopty?
Are you going to be in something really cool?
It just depends on what you're doing.
So that's your approach that you take.
Once you start talking to, you decide we're going to go with it.
But the first thing you do when you walk in is you tell them, you know, what happened.
And you, you, in other words, you confront them with, and usually, like now, I know to have a big folder.
You say, hey, look, we know that you were here on the night of.
I don't say we.
I say, these people know you did this.
And there's no question that you did this because it's all in here.
Yeah, this big thing I just threw down on the table.
It's all in there.
And they know you did it.
Is there everything in there?
Is there ever anything in the folder?
No, there's nothing in there.
No, it'll have their name on it.
Do they ever go look that?
No, they don't ever want to see it.
But it has their name on it.
They can look at it and see their name on it and stuff.
You might have a DVD that's supposed to be a video stuff, depending on what's happened.
But then you say, there's no question what's happening here.
And I can say, I'm not, look, I'm not a cop.
I don't, yeah, I can't arrest you or anything.
And here's the golden thing.
I'm just here to find out why you did this and what happened, why you did this and what happened.
So I can say why you did this or what happened.
So at that point, they're going to say one of two things.
It's going to go down two roads.
They're going to say this when you say that.
Because once you say, there's no doubt that you did this.
If they're guilty, they're going to say one or two things.
Or no matter if they're guilty, they're going to say one of them.
No two things.
Either way, guilty or innocent, they're going to say one of two things.
And so once you put that down, you say, this is, there's no doubt.
And these people, that these people know you've done this.
You know, there's no doubt about it.
So that's why I'm here is to find out, is to talk to you about this, to find out why you did it.
Find out what happened.
And then I shut up and they'll say this.
If the person goes, well, I don't know what you're talking about.
I didn't do that.
I have no idea.
I wasn't nowhere near that.
I didn't have anything to do with it.
That's not the kind of thing that I would do.
If they're really calm and, you know, just trying to explain things and they're looking at you the whole time.
And once you shut up, there's that little space where they're trying to, they're getting what they're getting ready to say together and then they go with it.
Now, that's usually the person who you want to talk to really bad.
The other way it would go is, is you say, so I know they know you did this.
There's no question about that.
They know you did.
And I tap that thing.
They know you did this.
And I'm not a cop or anything.
I'm just here to find out why you did this.
What happened?
You're not going to get happened out before they go, well, I didn't do anything, man.
I don't care what they say.
It wasn't me.
I know who did it.
I didn't have anything to do with it.
I was here.
And it'd be hard to shut them up.
Sometimes they get really mad.
They'll get pissed.
So that's what lets you know.
Now, if they keep that, sometimes the person who did do it will try that.
They'll get all, they'll be all pissed off.
But they'll calm down fairly soon because they don't know what you know because they've got that little, that little thing you just threw down the table sitting there.
They don't know if you know, you know, more than what they're telling, what they're telling you or not.
You know, if you, if they can fuss with that.
So they'll get all upset, then they'll calm down and start listening.
The other person are getting, they don't need to listen.
They don't care because it wasn't them.
So those are the tough ones to get through, but you have to go through the protocol to make sure it's nobody who's heard somebody like me talking and can get through that.
And there's specific ways to get around that, which I'll again tell you the details of that, but there are ways to do that.
So that's what you do.
You know, there's a lot of controversy in our criminal justice system for a number of reasons.
And I think, you know, just especially recently with in the Internet age and all the documentaries that come out and, you know, there's shows like false confessions and crazy stuff that makes kind of people really second guess the justice system.
Right.
And, you know, one of the things that I'm interested in is, you know, prosecutors are incredibly aggressive in the United States and it's highly competitive and it's very wind driven on the prosecution side.
Right.
How, as an interrogator, how do you, you know, I imagine that a lot of the people that you deal with are some of the worst people in the world.
And after you talk to 90 guilty psychos, how do you walk into a room with an unbiased stance for the one innocent guy?
You know, like, because you hear about cops, they're like, oh, like the cops get like, you know, they become more racist, you know, the more years go on because they've been, you know, monitoring the same neighborhood with the same ethnicity for decades or whatever.
So, like, how do you keep yourself from walking in and just automatically thinking this is just another one of the worst people in the world?
Because that's where that's where your fascination with body language and behavior should come in, because if you've if you've had 90 in a row, you're waiting for that one.
You're looking for that one who is you're always looking to make sure the person they whether they're innocent or not, you want to make sure they're not guilty.
That's that that's that you want to make sure that the person you're talking to.
But once you go down that road and you start flipping over the rocks and they keep doing all the things that the person who's guilty does and should do and defending themselves when their limbic system fires off and they start doing that, then you go, OK, but you can still have to go further and keep just to make sure that person is is guilty or innocent.
You know, so you have to be you have to be fascinated with the way these people act, with the way not these people, but humans act, because you're looking for all these.
There's so many things to look for and so many approaches to taking so many things to say to get to get reactions from people.
So that's that's where that kicks in is where you just have to be fascinated with people and how they act and behavior that that you've seen will come into play because, OK, I've seen this before.
And for example, it's a guy named Joe Navarro, and he tells a story about a woman he was talking to and he was in the he was a he's an ex-FBI agent.
He's like the King Kong of body language.
And and he's got a book called What Everybody Is Saying.
Great book.
If you don't have anybody that you get that one or you can get mine.
But I'm just kidding.
You can plug it, bro.
Don't be ashamed.
We'll do that in a minute.
But anyway, so Joe's book is a great book.
If you're going to start, that's a place to start.
And he tells a story of where this he was talking to this woman about something.
She was and couldn't tell if she was it was sort of on the fence with her.
You know, he's like felt like she was OK.
And then all of a sudden he said something and she started rubbing her hands on her pants, started getting all edgy and wicky.
He's like, OK, here we go.
You know, something's this has gone sideways on me here.
I've done this wrong because she starts getting a little bit, you know, and these are called adapters.
There's little things you do to to get rid of that built up stress and tension.
People rub on their hands.
They'll chew on their mouth.
They'll push on their face.
That's called facial denting or facial distortion.
And they'll start doing those things, pull on their their face or their arms.
And they're trying to get rid of that built up stress or tension.
And this woman started doing five or six of those things at once.
And he says, you look a little bit nervous.
There's something wrong.
Thinking that she would say, you know, no.
But she said, yeah.
yeah, I parked out front and I only had four quarters and I've been in here over an hour.
Are they going to give me a ticket?
I've got to go down and put more quarters in.
He's like, oh, okay, great.
It ends up she didn't do it, what they thought she'd done, but she was just worried about.
So what you would see in that situation as things that tell you they're guilty, they've got something completely different on their mind.
She's worried about getting a ticket out front because that's where she parked.
So you're seeing stress and you're seeing all the things that tell you this person is uncomfortable and they don't like this situation because she's thinking about going down and putting in quarters.
Not did I do this or not.
She's thinking about that too.
She's been saying, no, I didn't do it.
But that became important to her.
So that's why he started seeing all those adapters and things that told him something was wrong.
So you have to be aware of, you have to take everything that's happening, put everything into context with what's going on and ask those questions.
Find out about them.
You know a lot about them before you go in, but you want to know what's happening and pay attention to what's happening in that scenario you've created right there with that person.
So it's your fascination with human behavior that'll make sure you stay on the right road.
That makes sense.
One thing I did want to ask you about is, you know, you hear of studies and reporting that a lot of political leaders and a lot of CEOs are sort of disproportionately represented by like the sociopath class compared to, you know, just the gen pop, right?
There's, there's an increased likelihood that a CEO might be have sociopathic tendencies.
And my understanding is that the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath is a sociopath has no conscience, but maybe a psychopath is actually compelled to do something violent, right?
Is that a good sort of layman's assessment?
No.
I'll put this to rest for you.
The sociopath psychopath.
Okay.
There are no sociopaths.
There are no sociopaths.
No such thing.
What happened was the term psychopath started being used in court so much that they wanted to soften it, started calling a sociopath.
And they said sociopath isn't as bad as a psychopath, right?
What's known as a sociopath is just a hardcore criminal.
They get killed early.
They get in prison early.
They'll kill somebody early.
They're just violent people.
And you have those.
And you have, okay, here we go.
Let's jump in.
So when you deal with psychopaths, you're dealing someone with someone who there's the amygdala, which is part of the limbic system.
And the amygdala is the part of the brain that lets you empathize with people, not just sympathize, but say, I know how that must feel for someone to kick a dog or for that little child to have its finger broken.
Oh, that's horrible.
Or it burns.
Ah, geez, man.
But they can't do that.
Their brain doesn't allow them to do that.
They really don't have any psychopath, a psychopath.
There's that argument.
Because there are no sociopaths.
Yeah, there's no, there are no sociopaths.
So, but, but I'm going to show you why what another thing people are calling sociopaths, what they think sociopaths are, but there are, but they've just labeled that.
Just coming to the psychopath zeitgeist came in sociopath to soften the psychopath sound of it in court.
So you have, so since the amygdala, it does all that in a psychopath, we know the amygdalas are either missing, they're damaged, or they just don't work correctly.
And you can tell an fMRI machine when you put somebody in there and you can see that the brain isn't functioning correctly.
And that's where it goes to.
To make a long story short, it's a lot more to it than that, but it's horrifically boring.
But that's in a nutshell what it is.
So the psychopath, there's really nobody in there.
And I call them when I refer to, if we're talking about a psychopath, I call it it.
I don't say it's, I don't say she did this.
There's nobody in there, man.
Blood and meat.
Wow.
Yeah.
And I don't say, well, she thought this.
I say it thinks this or then it would do this.
That's the way I approach them because I don't like them.
And I think that's what they are.
There's nobody in there, just a body run around.
They could not possibly care less if you lit your hair on fire or stuck a pin in your eye while they're watching.
It wouldn't bother them in the least.
They wouldn't have any feeling about it.
They might laugh and say, wow, that's crazy.
But I've never seen that.
You actually get a tremendous amount of gratification from causing that harm or sexual gratification from the extreme violence.
Like if you think of the Bundies, right?
So like if there's no, if there's no emotional response to something like that, then why is there the compulsion to make to catalyze that to make that happen?
Because they don't feel anything.
And the only thing they get feelings from is adrenaline rushes, is an adrenaline rush.
So that's why you find a lot of them are soldiers.
But keep in mind, not all psychopaths are bad.
Some don't even know they are.
Most of them don't know they are.
But thank God we have some psychopaths that are soldiers because they get a lot done for us.
They're on our side.
But back to it, but there are psychopaths who, again, who don't know who they are or don't know what they are.
They don't understand that yet.
But we'll talk about that in a minute.
I'll tell you how they usually find out.
So as you deal with the psychopath and they have no feelings for anybody else, you have, for example, let's say in Iran or Iraq, when you have the Taliban or somebody like that, somebody's going around a group.
Al-Qaeda, perfect, ISIS.
ISIS, perfect example.
Those people grow up.
Those guys grow up and see their dad stomp little babies to death.
They see their mom being beaten up every day, not just slapped, beaten up bad, sometimes killed.
They see their sisters being killed because they did something that they didn't think they should do.
They see all this violence.
And from an emotional standpoint, they're not raised with those emotions tended to.
Nobody says, don't kick that little dog.
That hurts.
Or don't be mean to that kid.
That might hurt him or her.
They have feelings.
Nobody nurtures that in them.
So seeing all the violence and stuff they see, and their dad sometimes will have little kids shoot people.
They're going to kill somebody, have their child shoot somebody.
And so that would be what people would think is a sociopath because those feelings aren't really nurtured in their form.
They have a lot of the same traits as a psychopath, this person, but there's that difference between the nature and nurture.
So you would call this what you're thinking would be the sociopath would be the person who is who would be raised.
They have their brain functions normally, but their emotions were never nurtured.
So they're not used to that, don't know what it is, and don't ever experience those feelings because they're never brought out.
They will a little bit as they get older.
They'll understand something's not quite right there.
They'll feel something, but they'll think logically, I shouldn't feel that.
So whereas the psychopath feels none of that.
They have no problem whatsoever with any of that.
It never comes up.
But if you're raised in that situation where your father is an alcoholic and beats your mom up and you see violence, he beats you up all the time, those types of things.
Then you'll see that violent behavior come from that child was it's raised to be a really violent person.
So whereas a psychopath may be calm their whole life.
They may not be violent their whole life.
When they're little, usually they'll kill animals and they'll light them on fire.
They'll torture them and do some horrible stuff.
They'll get into drugs early.
They'll have a lot of relationships.
They're very promiscuous.
They'll do a lot of those things because that's the only thing that makes them feel something at all is the adrenaline rush.
But sometimes they don't do that at all because they're surrounded by people who love them and they're just not familiar with violence.
For example, if, and I use this example a lot, if you're a psychopath, you may not know it until your early 20s.
You may not realize there's something different about you.
And you find out like this down on 2nd Avenue here in Nashville.
You probably live somewhere.
Not that people that live on 2nd Avenue are psychopaths or anything.
I'm just saying, if you were one and you were from a small town, you'd move to the city.
There are not a lot of psychopaths in small towns because they want to be where the action is, where the thing's going on.
So they would probably live down somewhere like on 2nd Avenue in a loft or something.
There's a lot of action going on.
And it'd be the weekend.
And it would be, let's say, Friday night.
And they go, you know what?
They're watching TV and saying, I think I'm going to have Chinese for supper.
That's what I'm ready for dinner.
That's what I'm going to do.
Go get Chinese.
They walk downstairs and they go down 2nd Avenue.
It's a crowd, a lot of people.
And they look down at the end of 2nd Avenue.
There's a bunch of police cars and an ambulance and a bunch of people gather around.
They get closer and they know something important is going on.
It's something important.
As they get up there, they see this little child that's been run over.
It's a gruesome scene.
And the mother is over the little child, crying and trying to pull the mom off the kid because obviously the child's dead.
And As a psychopath, you look at that and you go, sweet and sour shrimp.
It's going to be sweet and sour shrimp.
That's what I'm going to do.
Sweet and sharp.
And then you'll go get sweet and sour shrimp.
And then you'll just pass that on the way home after you get the sweet and sour shrimp like it's nothing.
Then you go home and you'll eat it.
About an hour, an hour and a half later, you'll find yourself in the that psychopath in the bathroom imitating the faces it saw the expressions it saw on that woman's face over the little child because it doesn't understand what it saw when it says like you it's common for psychopaths even if they're regardless of whether or not they are planning to con anyone or planning to be a serial murderer it's common for them to practice in the mirror oh yeah yeah it's very common yeah and
they'll practice for what you say there's for example uh so anyway that's what they'll they'll practice those emotions because they'll know they have to have those to fit in with with the group to get what they want from the and the group being all the human um okay shoot i was going so i had to end on that what was your or did you what did you just say i'm sorry i was just i was just asking if all psychopaths practice facial expressions or if that was just something okay i got a story with that as well okay yeah okay well there's a there's a guy that that i knew here in town in nashville
and yeah and he uh to make a long story short he um he ended up being a psychopath but i didn't i didn't know it at the beginning but i knew this guy fairly well you know i thought and one time we were talking about taxes there were four or five of us standing at a party or something this guy's up and i said you know damn taxes i can't believe we have to pay this much and i went on this little sort of rant about taxes and and i would say specific cuss words in a specific order so
it would create pictures in your head and uh you know okay great so then about six months later i'm down at the palm down there on fourth right me and i'm meeting with somebody when we're eating and i'm in those booths right there in the bar you know where the the booths are there and i hear somebody behind me saying the exact same thing i said six months earlier as one and i knew it because there was my it was my go-to phrases i use when i was talking about taxes and this guy was saying the same thing with the same vigor the
same verb the same punches on each thing i'd said he was copying what i said and i said i recognize that voice and i looked around and there was this guy and i said this is not good his wife was pregnant and so i said hey man what's going on we talked for a minute because i said i gotta check this out you know so i was being nicer i was gonna so where's your your wife i won't say her name they said oh she's oh she's in the hospital she's trying not to have those babies because she was gonna have twins and
i said what she's in the hospital they're trying to have the babies and i said why aren't you there she's gonna be fine it'll be fine i'm going after this i'm going his wife is in the hospital trying not to go into labor to have their twins and it's gonna be it's gonna be a bad scene and he's out having supper getting bitching about taxes you know so i was like oh my gosh i it wasn't it wasn't a late supper it was early in the day it might have been 3 30 you know maybe the late lunch and
i was really i couldn't believe it i was like oh my god and then i knew i was up with this cat so not long after that um we ended up uh ended up talking to his wife and i said a couple of things and she broke down and said i don't know what i'm going to do and told me hey he tried to kill me he tried to do this he held the babies over the the balcony of the back porch and i was like yeah yeah here we go now this guy come to find out the history of this guy he lived in florida and
he's been married a couple of times before she didn't know about that he'd beat these women up and then he he they'll leave him then come here classic psychopath um trail that he's leaving now he's in canada community because they ruin their reputation do what they always have to go to a new community because they ruin their rep yeah yeah so he's in Canada right now telling everybody he was into fish that he was a fisherman.
He's working at a fish place.
He's telling that he wanted that he was nominated for a Grammy, a Grammy I got nominated for.
He's telling that he got nominated for it and he didn't.
And if you're watching this, I can't wait to see it because when you come back to the U.S., pal, you're going right into Pokey.
And I'm going to help put you there.
I can't wait because you'll be back.
You'll be back.
You'll think everything's okay.
But I've got an eye on you.
So just in case, because I know he watches some of these and he's heard me talk about this.
I'll tell you who it is.
You won't know him, but I'll tell you his name.
So if anything ever happens, you'll know exactly who I was talking about.
So yeah, so we're waiting on him down here.
She'll back up down here because he's going right to jail.
So anyway, I get too fired up about that one.
So anyway, that's that's a fascinating story.
But, you know, I think I've done that.
Maybe I'm a psychopath, but I think that I have not the wife beating, fleeing different communities part, but I've told stories that other people have told in the exact same way if they, you know, if they got a reason.
Yeah.
But you have expressions.
Believe me, I would have known by now, dude.
You know, it's not like I'm meeting you for the first time.
We're doing a podcast thing on here.
Yeah, I would, yeah, we wouldn't, I wouldn't be doing this with you.
Well, most of the taxes think I am.
So let them think that.
You know, they're wrong.
No, don't worry about that.
Well, I figured if I was a psychopath, I wouldn't care.
And the fact that I really don't want to be is probably in books that I'm not, right?
There you go.
Yeah.
So originally what I was getting into was, you know, that there's a disproportionate, there's rumored or whatever that there's a sense that there's a disproportionate number of psychopaths represented in like the CEO and political class.
If you found that to be kind of, to be true, like, for example, would you say that Steve Jobs was a psychopath?
Yeah, I don't know.
I never talked to him.
But what you deal with a lot of times is a narcissist and a malignant narcissist.
And that's the one people think is a psychopath is the malignant narcissist, which also would be a lot of people think is a sociopath.
Sometimes they're violent, sometimes they're not.
But most of the time, a malignant narcissist will be violent.
There's a lot of books.
Do you have to be a psychopath in order to be a narcissist?
Well, oddly, well, not oddly enough, but all narcissists are not psychopaths, but all psychopaths are narcissists.
So if you can get that happening.
So that's why people have a problem.
They'll say somebody who's a malignant narcissist or a clinical narcissist.
They'll say, oh, he's a psychopath or a sociopath.
I know he is.
When they're not, they're just a hardcore clinical narcissist.
And I know a couple of them that are CEOs.
And that's the way they run their business.
And it's not that I don't get along with them.
You know, I try my best, but that's what they are.
So what's wrong with being a narcissist?
Well, you, it's a great question because I'm asking from like an IRAN perspective.
Like, aren't we supposed to be self-involved and want the best for ourselves and to become the best version of ourselves and endeavor to be self-conscious?
But not if it takes advantage of or hurts other people.
Right.
Which is what they do.
They'll try.
They take advantage of that person.
And sometimes they're just mean and they'll be mean to people for no reason.
So as long as you're being nice to people and being a good person, yeah, be self-involved, be all that.
But pay attention to what's going on around you.
Read the room and read the people around you and make sure everything you're not hurting anybody or hurting anybody.
My mom always said, make sure nobody gets hurt and make sure nobody's feelings get hurt.
I think it was actually make sure nobody's feelings get hurt and then make sure nobody gets hurt and then clean up whatever it is you've done, clean it up.
If there's a mess.
So, yeah, sometimes it's bad to be a narcissist because it is all about you and it takes away from other people.
They'll lose their jobs because of you.
You'll fire them.
You'll knock people out of the way.
There's a narcissist you and I are both familiar with.
It's the head of a company here in town who is who does that.
And he would never even think he's one.
See, people say I'm a narcissist.
And he thinks it's cool, but he doesn't really realize he's a bad person, you know, a really bad person.
I'll tell you who that is later.
I think you probably knew what we're talking about.
But I can't give you more details than that because he'll know I'm talking specifically about him.
But yeah, so being a narcissist is not good for anybody but the narcissist.
That's really interesting.
So I don't want to talk about politics on this show, so you don't have to answer this question if you don't want.
But is it possible to become the president of the United States ever throughout history from 1776 all the way to today without some level of psychopathy or narcissism?
I think to want that job, something's got to be wrong with you.
And to want that much, much attention and to wield that much power and to want to wield that much power.
It doesn't mean they're all, you know, any of them are psychopaths or anything, but there's going to be some narcissism, I would think, in all of them.
And if you look at their behavior, if you watch them on TV from, you know, in the TV we have all the way up to when we first started having TV and presidents and you read books about them, how they were and things like that, you'll see there's at least a little bit of that in there, most of them, which is normal because you're not living a normal life once you're president of the United States, most powerful dude in the whole world or woman in the whole world.
It's man, it can, you know, I can, I can play tricks in your, on your head, you know, but usually it's the covert narcissist that would do the best in that in that situation.
What percentage of the population is a psychopath?
Well, there's a guy named Robert Hare and he's the Elvis Presley of psychopathy.
He's the one that came up with the psychopath test, as we know it.
And he's 40 questions or whatever that you can answer and it puts you on a scale.
40 questions.
But yeah, so you can find, so it gives you a pretty good idea where that person is a psychopath, which is something that I use all the time.
I don't go, you can't go down.
Like, for example, you need to find out if someone is glib.
You can't say, hey, man, are you glib?
You can't ask the question.
There's a certain way you ask questions to find out these answers.
But so Robert Hare, who's, and if there's, he's got a book called Without Conscience.
Great book.
If you're into psychopaths or psychopathy, check that out.
That explains a lot.
And you'll get so much more from that than you'll get from me.
Without conscience, great book.
He says it's probably the average is probably about 1% of the people in America are psychopaths, which makes sense.
I don't know.
I know we sure see a lot of men, but we sure see a lot of women too.
Well, maybe men are more likely to commit crimes than women for some reason.
Good.
Could be.
I mean, I don't know.
Wow.
So that means that a lot of us know a lot of psychopaths.
You probably know a few of them, but they may not know they are.
Right.
So what's the other one?
I don't know.
I got the sweetest little thing in the whole world.
I got lucky.
I'm not talking about your wife.
It would just be generally.
Can you, can you, can you have psychopaths?
I thought you were trying to be funny.
I was like, how's it going to make him laugh about this?
I can't.
Because I got, man, the first one didn't work out, but the second one scared me.
You got to do a little practice run.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so is it possible for a psychopath to live a long and happy married life and raise a family in a healthy way?
You know, I wouldn't think so because the wife would have to put up with a lot because what happens usually is the psych, a woman will meet a man and they'll think, and it could happen to men too, where they meet a guy or they meet somebody in business and they'll think, wow, this person, I get along great.
I can't believe there.
It's almost like you've met a kindred spirit.
You're like, oh my gosh, this is wonderful.
They get me and they'll be like, hey, man, I get what you're doing.
I see it.
This is fantastic.
You're awesome.
You know, you got this figured out.
You know exactly what you're doing.
You look good.
You look good doing it.
You got it figured out.
You're going to, this is going to happen, man.
This is happening.
And they make you, they bomb you with all these compliments and get your, you know, get all the chemicals in your brain.
They're supposed to be happy.
They get those up and happen.
And then the next thing you know, when the, if it's for the woman, they get married in about, you know, eight months, a year into it, then they find out they've married a psychopath because that mask drops is what you call it.
And they start beating them up.
They start treating them bad.
They start cheating on them.
They start doing all these things that is not that person to their wife.
And the wife, the women can do that too to husbands.
But that's when you go, oh no.
But by that time, just take women, for example.
It's the easiest one to do.
They'll have told all their friends and family, this guy's wonderful.
He's the most wonderful thing I've ever seen in my life.
He's so good to me.
All he does is he brings me flowers all the time.
You saw him when we were dating.
Geez, he took great care of me.
He loves me.
He does everything for me.
She's told all of her friends how wonderful this guy is.
So it's hard and her family.
So it's hard to go back and say, wait a minute, this guy isn't what I thought he was.
So you're sort of trapped in that of having to say, I made a mistake and this guy's horrible and I didn't know.
Plus the fact when you deal with a narcissist narcissist or a psychopath, the way they control a lot of situations with people is they'll, they'll, in other words, a love bomb.
They'll give a lot of affection and say nice things about him.
You have things popping off in your brain going, yeah, this is awesome.
This is, this is great.
Those little chemicals that pop out in your brain, you get used to that and you like it.
Then they cut that supply off, but then you start chasing that.
You want to do things to please that person, so they give you some more of that.
So that's the that's one of the ways they do it.
So you keep following them as they keep going away.
It's almost like fishing.
You reach up and get them to give you some of that.
Oh, this is great.
Okay.
And then they scoot along and you go up to get some more of it.
So it's almost like you're addicted to that feeling that they give you.
Well, you see a lot of that with like historical like cult leaders and stuff too, like with like the Jim Joneses and the Charles Mansons.
And you can kind of think throughout history of those people who, you know, rather than, especially if they have like extraordinary intelligence associated with psychopathy, because you could be a psychopath and total dumbass too.
If you're a psychopath, oh, yeah.
If you're a psychopath and you're, you know, super smart, you might not settle for just winning one or two people over.
You might like to win 100 people over, right?
And you see that kind of happen in these famous cases that get pulled up.
So I think that's really interesting.
Have you followed, like, did you follow like any of the Nexian stuff or anything like that?
Like, have you ever seen an instance where like somebody who's very controversial, like you just, you're convinced that they're not a psychopath and that this is just bullshit?
Or is it pretty much like every time this kind of thing happens, they got a really bad guy, you know?
Some these days, you never know what's happening because somebody will say something wrong and then that person's a this and they're that.
And it's, and there's, and everybody accepts it.
Okay, whatever.
So you just never, these days, you just can't tell, you know, from what everybody says.
So I don't know who's getting pinned as something and they really are and who's getting pinned as something they really are.
It's so hard to tell because just one slip of a of a word or a phrase or something.
And it's just like you're, you're, you're, they, you know, you get canceled.
And it's like, you gotta be kidding me.
So there's no, there's that whole scene right now, so wacko to be able to tell who's really doing what out in the world and who's really of this or who's really that.
Who knows?
You know, so I don't know.
Are there any historical examples of people that have been pinned that you just you're not confident are actually the evil person that they were made out to be?
I don't mean to put you on the spot.
I'm just no, no, no.
I'm trying to, I'm trying, I'm trying to think of something.
I'm trying to think of it.
This is like from the 90s or something, man.
It doesn't have to be like a contemporary one.
Like, I know that you talked a little bit about that woman who ran the healthcare company that did the fake blood test.
Oh, seranos.
Yeah.
She's just there and she's nuts.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a psychopath.
That's what she is.
Did not care.
No, seriously, there's nobody in there.
She didn't care if people died.
She said, oh, this blood test will tell you this and that.
She didn't care if people died.
Not at all.
She didn't care about laymen.
Even as a layman, you just look at it.
You're like, there's something wrong with that chick.
Yeah.
A lot of that was affected.
A lot of stuff she would put on.
But at the same time, when she knew that people were coming, were using that stuff to make sure they were okay and didn't have anything wrong with them.
She knew that it wasn't telling.
So, yeah.
So that's not good.
It's not just a mistake.
And I shouldn't have been that way.
No, you don't do that.
You're talking about a little child or she's not even put away yet.
No, she will be.
Do you think so?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's evil, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I hope they, I hope they catch the evil ones because, and we don't have to go down this route if you, if, if you, if you're not comfortable either, but it's, it's, you know, it's, there's a lot going on in terms of confusion in society today.
And it's, I think people are becoming less trusting of like the intelligence community and just sort of establishments on both sides of the political spectrum.
And I just hope that we can maintain a system where the bad guys go away and the good guys stay out, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's tough.
It's tough.
You know, you just can't tell, you know, a lot of times.
So that's going to be a tough one because it might be too late.
You know, where can people find you?
At bodylanguagetactics.com.
That little way is it right there.
There it is.
That's where, yeah.
So that's where you can get a hold of me and you can see that that's that's like the number one online body language course.
My partner Greg Hartley and I put that together.
And so if you need anything about me, that's where you go.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
Hang tight for a second when I turn off the cast and we'll keep talking after it's after it's live.
But thank you so much for coming on.
I'd definitely love to stay in touch with you.
And I appreciate your time.
Yeah, man.
Anytime you're on me on, let me know.
I'll come back.
And I'll hook you up with some of these other guys too from our thing.
