Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin - Debating Relationships and Civilisation with Destiny & Vee

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July 18, 2021 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin

01:52:04

Debating Relationships and Civilisation with Destiny & Vee

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	I bet I'm live long before anyone knew I was streaming.
	Ah, damn.
	Chat didn't come up, but are we debating cock aldry?
	Well, might come up.
	How's it going, chat?
	Oh, God, it's hot here at the moment.
	Which is proof of global warming.
	And when it's cold in the winter, that's not proof of global warming.
	Nah, Destiny's alright.
	Destiny's alright.
	Suns are out, the guns are out.
	No, it's insufferable.
	The worst part, though, is my air conditioning appears to be malfunctioning.
	And so, basically, it's a fan.
	It's a very expensive fan that I have on at the moment.
	And so, insufferable.
	Destiny is just doing something he's going to turn up in a minute.
	I hope.
	If not, I'm just using his name for clicks.
	I'm sure he'll turn up.
	He did a video reacting to Coach Redpill talking about women.
	And I found it interesting.
	So we're going to talk about that a bit.
	How can he defend being a Democrat considering the facts?
	Well, I mean, some people have just got deeply held identity.
	Hi there, Fanny.
	How about slow mode?
	Oh, God, if only I knew how that was done.
	I do not have a license for my guns.
	I have been working, though.
	working out.
	Can I do?
	No, I can't.
	Sorry, it's gone.
	Yeah, it's so hot here.
	The thing is, it's worse because of the size of my office.
	So if it's cold, it gets colder, and if it's hot, it gets hotter.
	So the air colour is increasingly needed.
	And it's not working.
	Oh, God, don't say Rip Joe Rogan.
	No, I'm not gay.
	Well, not yet.
	I know.
	I know.
	This is what Adam and Sitch get.
	Me streaming over them.
	See, how hot was it here today, actually?
	Because I'm probably 28 degrees.
	Unbelievable.
	28 degrees Celsius.
	What's that in Fahrenheit?
	82 degrees Fahrenheit.
	God, how insufferable.
	Weather.
	Unacceptable.
	I realize that there are going to be many of you people in parts of the world that are like, what?
	There's nothing.
	But for the English, that's a lot.
	The San Francisco choir is going to come for me.
	No, I'm too old for them.
	Way too old for them.
	31 in Ponty Priest.
	Oh my God.
	Practically equatorian temperatures.
	Must be global warming.
	Yeah, I know my arms are pale.
	The forearms are nicely tanned, but the rest of me is pretty pale.
	Yeah, I know.
	My shirt's pretty gay, but I can't be bothered to argue the toss about it, to be honest.
	You should see it rolled up as much as I can on my belly.
	Just like acropped a tank top, basically.
	But yeah.
	It's too hot.
	It's too hot.
	Let V come on.
	Well, I mean, I don't know.
	I'll ask Destiny, I guess, if he's okay with it.
	Just wait for wait for him to turn up 28 in Finland and Sweden also.
	Oh my god, summer is just a mistake.
	23 degrees Celsius, Scotland.
	God, and I'm streaming over Arch's RP.
	Whoa!
	So everyone's allowed to stream but me.
	Is that how this works?
	How do I feel about Milo telling himself straight?
	I think that your sexuality is a choice because I'm a product of the modern left and that's literally what they tell us.
	So if your sexuality is a choice, then he can just choose to become straight.
	And you can't even say he can't.
	I noticed that the left is just generally avoiding Milo's conversion.
	Interesting, isn't it?
	Do the abs match the guns?
	No, they do not at the moment.
	I'm working on it.
	I'm working on it.
	Sorry, there are too many questions.
	I can't even answer them all.
	Hearing gay music play in my head.
	What gay music are you listening to?
	Put the King Arthur Red video back up.
	Wow, no, I'll talk to you.
	I'll tell you about that stuff another time.
	It was good though, isn't it?
	Gwen is such a Chad bro as well.
	Love it.
	Yeah, no, YouTube won't monetize this channel because I'm naughty boy.
	Therefore, no monetize on this channel, therefore no super chats, but that's fine.
	If you want to support me, you can go to lotses.com and subscribe.
	Yeah, we're on Odyssey and all that, you know.
	How's Lotus doing?
	Very, very well.
	Very well, actually.
	Excellently.
	Means that we get to have a team that's expanding and have a livelihood and produce good content, which I'm very happy with.
	I need a cut-off Union Jack shirt like Def Leopard.
	Yeah, good point.
	Good point.
	I do.
	I do need that.
	I knew there was something missing in my life.
	Is there a law against curved swords in the UK?
	I've no idea.
	Crest, you're monetized in my heart, Sargon.
	Oh, thank you.
	Why is the West obsessed with being gay?
	Is it like scientists?
	Hmm.
	Good question.
	The West is obsessed with a lot of things that really don't feature or make an impact on most people's daily lives.
	It's very bizarre.
	I don't know who Beast Rabin is, but I'll take that as a compliment.
	When are you going when you want to flee the UK?
	Oh, I don't know.
	I can't exactly go to the United States anymore, can I?
	What am I going to do?
	Go to Canada or New Zealand or Australia?
	Given how things are going there?
	think so god everything's katana's specifically a band Good, because they're cringe.
	That's right, I said it.
	Fight me IRL.
	Did I happen to catch the sticks, but I haven't, unfortunately.
	I've been doing family things all weekend, and this is like the first sort of good amount of time that I've had in my office.
	Yeah, I want Lou Levi as well.
	Let's see if he comes on.
	Active mission here.
	What kind of climbing do I do?
	Just bouldering at a local place.
	It's pretty good fun, though.
	Really enjoy it.
	Weave stick superior.
	Oh, don't even.
	Don't even.
	Still waiting for Destiny.
	He will be here, I'm sure of it.
	And then we'll be debating how we can get women back in the kitchen.
	Wife and kids are doing very well.
	It's one of the reasons why I've been so tired and busy, to be honest.
	Yeah, longsword beats Katana, exactly.
	Kickstarter to get me a boob tube or a crop top.
	Based.
	Voltaire's Ghost doesn't do much in the way of live streams or interviews or anything, so I can't get them anywhere really.
	I've tried.
	And we're going to talk about South Africa.
	Well, Josh actually put up an article about South Africa on Saturday.
	Because I asked him to look into it, because frankly, all I'd seen is a bunch of terrible-looking viral videos and a couple of scary headlines, but nothing that had been investigated in depth.
	So he's put that up.
	And the thing is, I haven't even had time to read it, so I'm going to read it tomorrow.
	But yeah, it looks like it's bad, doesn't it?
	You know, I've heard that it's like Indian, Muslim, and like, I don't know, the farmers or burrs or how we describe them versus the race warriors.
	And that's not good.
	Not good at all.
	Get Devon Tracy on.
	Oh, I would.
	Yeah, I know he's playing poker, but he apparently had to go and get a package.
	So I'm under the impression that he'll be here.
	But if not, we're going to just have a nice chat.
	Have you all seen my OnlyFans?
	Yeah, it's full of big brain content.
	Very happy with it.
	Destiny seems like a lady's name.
	Wow.
	Seems like a stripper pseudonym.
	The thing is, that's what I like about him.
	I'd pay Destiny to be a stripper.
	I will do my best to keep Destiny on topic.
	I'd love to hang out with Nick Rikita again.
	I mean, if he's around, Nick, just ping me on Discord.
	If I can scrounge up some free time, I'll definitely come on, man.
	Seems like we're saying I'm getting drugs.
	I'm sure he's not, to be honest.
	Sorry, I don't know where he is.
	I expected him to be here.
	I've just messaged him.
	Sargon of CAD sounds like a gay death metal band based.
	Excellent.
	Could have sounded way worse.
	AIU just took the roadpill.
	Holy shit.
	What must have been taken before?
	He got himself deplatformed.
	Is atheism the only solution to religion, or can I believe in God but not religion work at all?
	Um...
	I think I'm more likely to believe in religion but not God.
	Obviously, I'm an atheist still.
	I just can't bring myself to be religious or anything like that.
	I just don't.
	I can't bring it upon myself to export my personal responsibility and venerate and worship something.
	I just never worshipped anything.
	And I just can't bring myself to do it.
	Sargon of a CAD sounds like an authoritarian Chad dictator.
	Well, good news.
	That's what he was.
	I'd love to get Razor Fist up, but the problem is time zoning.
	Time zones with the Razorfist.
	He's in one particular American time zone that's like, I don't know, eight or nine hours behind English time, and it's really difficult to get him on.
	I'll tell you what, I'm not rolling up my sleeves because I'm proud of my weight loss.
	I'm doing it because literally it's unbelievably hot.
	My thoughts on Buddhism.
	I don't really know much about Buddhism, to be honest.
	I've never spent any time studying it.
	Am I banned from Twitch?
	I've never used Twitch, I don't think.
	Let's give Destiny a call.
	He's banned from Twitch, I think.
	Yo!
	Hi, what's up?
	I'm doing very well.
	Have you been banned from Twitch?
	Uh, yes, multiple times.
	Am I currently banned from Twitch?
	No.
	I don't know if that was supposed to be a trick question or not.
	No, no, no.
	I honestly don't know.
	Sorry, can you?
	Oh, yeah, no, I don't follow Twitch at all.
	So I had no idea what happened.
	But I did hear something about you being banned from Twitch at some point, which was doubtless going to be unfair because, I mean, good God, you know.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah, it's happened before, but no, I'm not currently banned.
	Yeah, right.
	So they actually have a sort of unbanning procedure on Twitch, do they?
	Yeah, the procedure is if you if you're big enough to stir up enough shit on social media and the ban was unfair, then you might get unbanned maybe after a few days.
	Yeah, I see.
	The same sort of way that YouTube works.
	Yeah, basically.
	Yeah, it's pretty awful, isn't it?
	That Twitter is the method by which people need to get unbanned.
	Yeah, but I mean, um, yeah, uh, I think 10 years ago, no, probably longer than that, there was a big goal or a big shift in all the online platforms where they realized that they don't have to actually staff anything with humans, so they try to like automate or use algorithms to figure out as much shit as possible for everything.
	So that's just kind of that's the natural extension to where we're at.
	Like, no humans actually go through any of the banning shit or any of the demonetizing stuff or any of that.
	It's all just algorithms.
	And then if you match an algorithm, then yeah.
	Like, for instance, on the um when you get flagged on YouTube, you know how sometimes you can request a manual review?
	The manual review is just them making sure that like the program ran correctly.
	It's not like an actual human watches your video for 25 minutes and then like reviews it.
	That's not like what is actually happening.
	Yeah.
	It's sufferable.
	So I want to talk to you about the video response you did to Coach Redpill.
	I assume you know who he is, right?
	Like this wasn't just fortunately we've I've spoken to him several times.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, me too.
	And I just want to be clear that I'm of the personal opinion that he's scum.
	Okay.
	And so, like, I mean, he's a liar, a deliberate liar.
	And he, I mean, if you were going to use the word misogynist about someone, I think it'd probably fit him.
	But I do think that your video response was kind of lacking, though.
	I felt that you didn't really address his points.
	Because there are also.
	Sure, yeah.
	Bring him up or we can hit him up, whatever you think.
	Yeah, yeah.
	The main point that he's making, I think, is that if women don't present themselves and keep themselves in a certain state of desirability, then men simply won't desire them.
	And that can't be good for society writ large, can it?
	We have to dissect a lot of these statements in terms of keep themselves desirable.
	Is it good for society?
	I think what is desirable, there's going to be parts of this that are influenced socially, and there's going to be parts of this that are kind of more built into ourselves.
	And the social parts we have a great deal of control over.
	The other parts, probably not as much.
	But I think that we can probably look at some of the social parts and see how some of these things have changed over time to see if it's good or bad and then go forward with that.
	So, for instance, like, should women be working or going to college?
	That's probably more like a social thing versus a woman with smooth skin looks good or something, right?
	It's probably a little bit more built into us.
	That's fair.
	I don't think we should underestimate our personal control over much of our physical being, though.
	I think we actually do have quite a lot of control over that.
	Yeah, we have the capacity for a lot of control over it.
	I'll say that.
	Yeah.
	Well, no, that's perfectly fair.
	Because, of course, there's the potentially having capacity over controlling the way that you look to a certain degree and then just ignoring that and filling your face with donuts.
	But I found, so just to preface this for anyone who didn't see your stream, you had said in it that I'm just going to quote that Coach Red Pill is solidly average.
	You're arguing for women to be 10 out of 10 when you're a five.
	Oh, yeah, that sometimes there's like there's really weird, there's really weird standards played on both sides where sometimes people in the middle are dramatically overrating what it is they're like entitled to or going for.
	So oftentimes, so this stereotype plays out in two ways.
	On one end, you'll see like pretty average women don't want to fuck with pretty average men for whatever reason.
	And then on the other end, you'll see like pretty average men like online will say that like incredibly beautiful women look like shit or whatever or like have huge beauty standards where men expect women to put like some level of effort or work into their looks where they won't do any on their own.
	So yeah, I think that that plays out in different ways on both sides for sure.
	Yeah, I think the average internet man calling a beautiful, you know, like a good sort of seven out of ten woman sort of ugly or uncertainty.
	Ugly elbows point is a dumb shit like that.
	It's a total cope.
	It's because they would never approach her in a bar because they're a five and she's a seven.
	But the thing is, like, I don't think he's actually wrong on the essence of what he's saying here.
	Like, as in women probably should try to maintain some standards, as I agree that men also should as well.
	Right.
	And I think that if we, I think that at the moment, the current current of the mainstream, if we can describe that, like mainstream culture, is very much against beauty standards being promoted.
	And not just beauty standards, but you know, the standards of things that people do to make them desirable.
	So if it's for men to work hard and earn lots of money, if it's for women to keep themselves trim and attractive and perhaps not be excessively promiscuous.
	I think that there's, I think that there are very, I think that there are different attitudes in society about this.
	And I think that these attitudes on both sides are harder than they ever have been, which makes things, in my opinion, more confusing than they ever have been.
	So let's look at women.
	I would say that you're, I think, a little bit older than me.
	I remember growing up, like, beauty standards for women were hardcore prescribed, and it seemed like you had quite a bit less wiggle room than you do today.
	Whereas it seems like in mainstream media and mainstream culture, they shoot for like a greater representation of different body types among women and different representations of women.
	So it seems like today it's a little bit more lax in terms of what can a woman look like.
	Now, when it comes to like mainstream culture, that seems to be the case.
	So if I look at like Hollywood movies, I'm more likely to find women of color or women of different body sizes or appearances or whatever.
	But when I go to the social media world in that area, women are like more fake than they have ever been since the dawn of mankind.
	So it used to be that you'd have a woman who would already have to look pretty beautiful, who would put on a fuck ton of makeup.
	Now we've got women with lots of makeup with tons of surgeries and then filters on top of that is like the norm for like an Instagram post.
	So I think it, I think if you're honest, not to say you're not honest, I'm using it, yeah, it's very easy for either side.
	Like I think people on the far left will look at social media and go, oh, look, the beauty standards are impossible for women.
	And then people on the right will go, oh my God, look at these like larger women in movies and shit.
	That would have never flown back then.
	Fuck off.
	The beauty standards are a lot more lax.
	I think that it's a little more complicated than that.
	I think that we see super extreme polls like forming on both sides in terms of where the beauty standards should be.
	I think it's really confusing for a lot of people.
	No, I agree.
	And I liked your use of the meme of the, you know, the neurotic weirdo who sat in his basement typing, going like, yeah, I'm saving myself for the trad wife.
	And then the picture of the trad wife going, oh, if only I could find a neurotic weirdo.
	Well, yeah, because if you want a trad wife, that's fine, but then you've got to be a trad man.
	I mean, you've got to earn a lot of money.
	You've got to be muscular.
	You got to look good.
	You have to do that shit.
	If you want a trad wife, you need to be a trad husband.
	I think the onus on the men is a lot less on the looks and more about the capacity and the capability.
	Whereas for women, I think it is a lot more for looks, unfortunately for them.
	If that's something that you may have been born with a disadvantage in or something like that, not to say that life is fair or anything like that.
	But the problem I have, though, is that if we can charitably describe Coach Redpill's position as social conservatism and charitably describe your position as social liberalism, saying that I think I've just described a position to you.
	But assuming you don't see a problem with people sort of absconding the beauty standards or anything like that, or that position, even if you don't hold it sort of thing.
	If we see those two being represented in society, I don't see much social conservatism being represented in society.
	And I actually do think there is an effect of that.
	I think there's when you say social conservatism, can you kind of like spell that out a bit more?
	What do you mean by that?
	You know, the sorts of traditional mindset that suggests that women perhaps shouldn't indulge in a vast amount of sex with very many partners, that they should try and make themselves presentable, try not to gain excessive amounts of weight, the sort of traditional view of what the sort of ideal trad wife should be.
	And if we put that at sort of like the very far, say, right of the conversation, the ideal like platonic form of a trad wife, and then on the very far left, the platonic form of a feminist seems pretty grim, right?
	And I can see why a lot of men are saying, well, young women's.
	When you say grim, can you just say that?
	Or what do you mean by that?
	That's very body positive, gender-confused, deliberately bucking traditional social views of attractiveness when it comes to women.
	So shaving their heads, things like that.
	Didn't iDub's wife just shave her head?
	Why is she doing that to him?
	That's the sort of question that comes from my mind.
	So if that's one extreme and then the trad wife, the perfect trad wife is the other extreme, I do see, and maybe this is just me, but I do see a lot, even in sort of like Hollywood movies, that seem to go more towards the left-wing extreme rather than the right-wing extreme there.
	And I think that there is a problem that arises from that.
	And I think that's what Coach Redpill is trying to present in his way.
	Okay, when I have this conversation with you, I'm going to have a conversation with you so that if we end up agreeing on anything, I want to be very clear.
	I do not support or agree with anything Coach Redpill says.
	I understand that maybe you've read into the video in some way and you want to present a point of view.
	I have no problem talking to you about your points of view.
	That you bring up some good points, but I just want to be super ultra clear.
	I've talked with Coach Red Pill in the past.
	He's got that you've realized, like, if anybody in the internet could ever be called a misogynist, and it's not just a lefty going crazy, Coach Red Pill is absolutely okay.
	I agree.
	When I talked to that guy last, he was like screaming at me, bragging that he like chained 18-year-olds.
	He's like, he's on a whole other level of fucking insanity.
	So, I mean, if the guys are advocating for sort of traditional lifestyles, that seems pretty anti-traditional.
	Yeah, yeah, I agree.
	From his perspective, you could say that he is actively going around destroying the sort of sacredness of women by doing that.
	Potentially, yeah.
	That would be from his own perspective.
	So, here's like a general thing that I've noticed.
	I think I contributed a lot to this, and I could have done a better job.
	So, I'm trying to today.
	Here's something that I've noticed a lot that happens on the left.
	I think that on the right, I think that you have these kinds of social norms that exist, and they're not really questioned much, but it seems like for a long time in human history, they've kind of worked.
	Having like a man and a wife, having a couple children, we used to be a bit more social about how we raised kids, but more or less, you know, having families, women doing certain things, men doing certain things.
	We don't really think about them much, but it seems like they've worked for a long time.
	And conservatives in general, I think, want to kind of protect that arrangement just because it seems like it was valid and it was effective.
	I think that people on the left, I'm trying not to use the word liberal because you're British and there's like a lot of weird shit.
	I'll just say kind of like left-leaning, or maybe I have more liberal.
	Well, I don't want to say leftist because I want to be like socialist or communist because it's not necessarily that either.
	I'll just say more left-leaning social views seem like they want to take certain aspects of society that have kind of been taken for granted and then kind of ask, do things really need to be this way?
	Do they have to be this way?
	Now, I like that approach, and I think that there are a lot of things where it's like, I don't know if they need to be this way.
	Um, you know, we talk about we make fun of like women shaving their heads.
	I think Sigourney Weaver looked really attractive in the alien movies.
	I remember having a kid crush on her, and I was like in a Christian family, and I was very used to like traditional-looking women.
	Um, now that's just like one example out of many, and I'm sure we can find a lot of bad examples of that as well.
	Um, but I think that what happens sometimes on the left is you'll break something apart and you'll be like, you know, do women have to have hair that looks like this?
	Well, no, they don't.
	Oh my God.
	And then what happens is you start breaking apart every single social norm that exists, and you do it without really realizing, well, why did that social norm exist?
	Like, well, maybe there was actually some utility to that social norm.
	Maybe there was a reason why everybody did that.
	And then you end up in this weird, like, nihilistic pit of meaninglessness where every single thing feels arbitrary or worthless.
	And then you just want to make everything like confused and non-conforming and whatever.
	And then you're kind of like pretty empty at the end of the day.
	I think that that's a problem that a lot of people have on the left.
	Yeah.
	So, like, when you just, just, yeah, no, I think you've actually really hit the nail on the head there.
	What and I agree with you that there is an appeal and a reason to be critical of the way that things are done.
	You don't want to just inherit mindlessly what's come from the past and be like, okay, you know, I'll just do it because there's always.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And it's a natural urge for teenagers to do that.
	But the point I think I'm trying to make is that I think that's become the only narrative that's being given to young people now.
	And I think that the social conservative narrative, as you were saying, it worked for a reason, and there is actually some virtue to it.
	So maybe we could think about trying to balance the scales somewhat.
	Yeah.
	So like my like the dream for me is, and I and I've said this for probably the better part of the last decade, is I think that the left needs to push for more openness in terms of what some of the standards should be without necessarily like demonizing some of the standards that came before.
	And it seems like really hard for both sides to do that.
	Like everybody kind of wants the world to be their way.
	And then like if other people try to do it the other way, it's like somehow incompatible with, it's somehow incompatible with what they want.
	So like there are traditional ways that women function in the world.
	And if women want to function in those ways, I think that should be fine.
	If they want to do it, you shouldn't be demonized for it.
	But if there's a woman that wants to be like a business exec or go after like a STEM degree or do something like that, I think they should be allowed to do that too.
	And it'd be nice if like people were free to, this is the inter-liberal immigration coming out hard point, right?
	I think people should be free to kind of make those choices without necessarily like pushing other groups of people into having to do it or demonizing other people that aren't doing it insofar as society doesn't fall apart.
	Yeah, I know.
	I totally agree with you, the demonization.
	And it's not exclusive to the left, of course.
	You know, I mean, like, just listen to the way that some of the sort of hardcore MAGA types talk about Democrats, the demon KKK rats.
	It's like, okay, look, I'm not saying you're wrong.
	I'm just saying maybe the framing is a bit aggressive.
	But so, yeah, I agree with you that that does sound optimal.
	But I think that we have to be realistic that we need most women to fulfill the traditional woman's role.
	I think that is something that reality demands of us.
	I think it depends on what we mean by traditional women's role, I guess.
	Well, I mean, obviously.
	I mean, men aren't going to have children, right?
	Well, we're in a brave new world now, aren't we?
	I shouldn't have said it.
	I shouldn't have said that.
	I agree with you, though.
	I agree with you.
	So the children thing is, I think that that's a whole other question that gets that.
	I think that the having children thing is a very, okay, here.
	So here, that's this is having children is a hard conversation.
	So here's the question, basically, is, and on its face, it sounds absurd, but I think it demands some attention.
	Do you have an obligation to continue the human race?
	Because I think that everybody kind of like presupposes the answer is obviously, of course.
	But like, what if it is the case that left to their own devices, people just kind of choose over time?
	It's like, oh, maybe we'll just have less and less and less and less kids.
	And then eventually, like, humanity is just kind of gone.
	Like, do you have to make a personal sacrifice today to do something to further the existence of the human race?
	I don't know if that's like an obligation that I think like an individual necessarily has to carry, which is a hard one.
	I'm reasonably sure that I pitched that question to you and Hassan Pika when I was doing a debate with you and Nick Fuentes back before he got deplatformed and things like that.
	And you guys didn't have an answer for that then, if I recall correctly.
	I'm not saying that.
	So I don't know what the answer is.
	I wouldn't surprise if I didn't have an answer then.
	Because generally, if I'm, I'm not saying that you're this, but if I look at like, what's a nicer word for fascists?
	Somebody that wants to have a society that is like, maybe like a very, very, very traditional hardcore person.
	When they argue in favor of like, when they look at like declining birth rates and stuff like that, oftentimes I think kind of like baked in is this assumption that we need to further the existence of the human race, that women aren't having enough children and like certain race are going away.
	But I think you can back up and ask, like, well, is that actually something that we, that demands our attention?
	Is that actually something that we need to be making sacrifices today for?
	Like, if the human race goes extinct, like it will go extinct at some point, right?
	Like, are we being this, does morality demand of us to make sacrifices today to prevent that, you know, millions of years from now?
	I don't know.
	That's a, that's a difficult one.
	It's built off of the question of like, it seems to be the case that women left to their own devices choose to have less kids than they would otherwise, or even wealthier families left to their own devices choose to have less kids than they would otherwise.
	And is that choice like morally wrong?
	Or should they be bullied into doing something otherwise that they would choose, you know, given the failure to do so?
	Just, is it all right if we reframe this just to say a Western country, you know, like a single Western country?
	Because like rather than being like all humanity, because that makes it a very broad and complex set of variables that we're dealing with.
	And, you know, one country is enough.
	But like, I agree with you that we need to think about that.
	I think that really is a question.
	Do we have like a civilizational responsibility?
	Because if we inherit a civilization, do we actually have the right to just turn around and say, well, you know, we're not going to pass this on to anyone else?
	You know, it stops with us because we're deciding to just self-indulge.
	We're just going to, you know, and it's not just women who are choosing not to have children as well.
	Men are doing it too.
	Men are doing it when they decide, what I'm going to do is work minimum wage so I can afford my apartment, my beer, my Xbox, and I'll just check out.
	You know, that's the same as women saying, right, I'm going to use birth control or have abortions.
	And I do think that there is obviously a natural tendency towards the path of least resistance.
	But I do think that's probably the thing that's triggering this necessity of the question, do we have a responsibility to our own civilizations?
	And I would find myself running down on the side of, yes, we probably do.
	Sure.
	And I can understand somebody feeling that way, but I don't know how you would – it feels like you would need a war to prescribe that to the other side.
	Can we know?
	Because if I look like historically, I think it was, I want to say it was Mussolini tried to incentivize greater birth rates.
	Because as countries become, because there are a couple examples in history where people try to do this, as countries become more industrialized, as they move into the modern world, women have less and less children.
	This is like a repeated trend throughout all of human history, all across the world.
	And it seems really, really, really hard to incentivize people otherwise to have children.
	So it feels like you need a bigger push.
	Now, I'm not saying like forced insemination or whatever, but it seems like you need like really big social push.
	I didn't know you were going that far.
	I thought you might just.
	It seems like in order to make people have children, you need really big pushes to do it.
	So you almost need like some like legally prescriptive policy being like, we're going to like, you motherfuckers need to pump some children out right now or you're going to get fucked.
	It almost seems like that needs to be the case.
	Well, I mean, Denmark just had an advertising campaign.
	The Danish government just put like adverts up at bus stops and they got like a 5% increase in the number of people having kids.
	So I don't actually think you need particularly strong incentives.
	It's just at the moment, I think the way that culture is loaded, the incentive is completely against.
	And I mean, I see people all the time on social media saying, and they're always left-wingers.
	They're always, always left-wingers saying horrible things about children as if they have somehow persuaded themselves that children are evil.
	And that's just what communities you're in.
	I don't know if you've ever heard of this on Reddit.
	There's a place called Child Free, and those people actually just fucking hate kids.
	It's really, really gross.
	That goes along with what I was saying earlier, though, where it's sad because I think as a left-leaning person, you should be pushing to expand categories and create more options for people.
	But instead, what happens is people start to demonize the other side.
	And yeah, you end up with these people that are like child-free.
	And yeah, it's really, really, really weird.
	You know, if somebody doesn't want to have kids, I think that's fine.
	But when you start making fun of other people, calling people breeders and shit.
	Well, no, I agree.
	I completely agree with you.
	And the thing is, though, I do think that the population decline is an issue.
	I mean, and I don't want to even get into the contingent reasons.
	Like, well, they're increasing their population again in China.
	Do you want China to have a much bigger population than Western countries?
	That's not going to be good when the war eventually comes, et cetera, et cetera.
	These are practical reasons that I think are valid.
	Well, even, does China have a birth rate restriction anymore on China?
	They just lifted it.
	What does just mean?
	Like within the past year or two or within the past year?
	In the past few months.
	Oh, okay.
	It hasn't like, you know, I'm not saying that there's now like, you know, extra Chinese people running around or anything, but it used to be that they did, you know, have incentives to restrict that, and now they've lifted those.
	But the problem I think that the West is having is essentially too long a piece and too much self-congratulations and too much, and I hate to say it, but too much of a desire for freedom.
	I know that sounds counterintuitive, but like when now we've got like, you know, furry conventions and things like this, I'm just like, okay, maybe there are limits to everything, you know.
	But the point is, I think that what we've done is actually miscarried for the younger people in the generations that are coming up now because we, I think, inherited a great amount of privilege.
	You're in your what, mid to late 30s?
	Yeah, 32.
	Yeah, right.
	Okay.
	Early 30s, please.
	Sorry, sorry.
	Early 30s.
	I'm just fine.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	It's fine.
	But no, but this is important, though, because you are old enough to remember what the sort of boomer Republicans were saying about marriage and kids and responsibility and all these sort of things.
	And whether you agree with them or not, they were at least a part of the cultural environment in which you lived.
	Whereas I don't see anyone making those arguments anymore, you know, and I don't see young people being very well exposed to the reasons why prudent decision-making might be useful to achieve things that otherwise can't be achieved.
	Like, I love watching the backlash against OnlyFans.
	It's great to see.
	And it's coming from young men because the young men are just saying, look, from the heart, I'm not marrying this whore.
	I'm not marrying this whore.
	I don't care.
	I'll spend my money on it.
	A bunch of them are going to be simps who are going to spend their monies on them, you know, to get their nudes and stuff.
	But they're not going to marry them.
	So they're not going to be fathers to their children.
	They're not going to be responsible adults.
	They're not going to become, I guess, what we could say, sort of pillars of civilization, which is what these family units are.
	And that's a concern to me because the fewer and fewer stable families that are created means the fewer and fewer stable adult human beings that end up getting raised to become those people who hold up society.
	And I think that's a real issue.
	So this is one of those things that I say is really confusing.
	So I understand what you're saying here, but this is one of those social norms where people will simultaneously demonize it, but then they will simultaneously support the ever-living fuck out of it at the same time.
	So, and I think you can find this a lot.
	So I think that there are a lot of standards that are self-reinforced on women.
	So they do it to themselves.
	But I think a lot of them originate from and then are also reinforced by men.
	So a lot of men, for instance, will complain about the fact that like women wear makeup and then women will make up, wear makeup, run each other, do shit, edit their Instagram photos, get plasma surgery, do all this stuff.
	And, you know, they do it in their own groups, but then they also get a ton of reinforcement for men doing it.
	But then if they don't do it, they get shunded or demonized for it.
	So like it feels really weird to me that men will simultaneously have these positions.
	And you kind of said it as much when you said they'll be like, I don't want to marry whore.
	I don't want any girl that does OnlyFans.
	Fuck this shit.
	They want the trad wife.
	But when they look at their own personal lives, they're masturbating for two hours a day.
	They're spending their minimum wage job on OnlyFans.
	Right.
	So what, so where is the change supposed to come from?
	I wouldn't expect a woman to change because she's receiving all the positive reinforcement she needs from the other side to do a particular type of behavior.
	And then men are expecting them to switch.
	It's almost like they want a woman to be a whore until she's like 27, and then they want her to flip a switch at erase her past and become a good trad wife at like 28.
	Like that's what the change is very, very confusing sometimes.
	Not just that.
	The men themselves are often expecting all of the onus to be on the women, right?
	Because I mean, I am glad that I'm not a woman in the current era of OnlyFans because it looks tempting, right?
	It looks really tempting.
	Amount of unbelievable money that they make.
	And you think, well, okay, that's a short slip into something that is sordid, right?
	It's deeply sordid.
	And I think we need to think in the sort of language that the conservatives would have used, the language of the sacred and the debauched.
	And as soon as you start talking in this kind of language, you realize that, well, most young women are pretty debauched.
	And I wouldn't want to have that as my pick of the litter when I'm a young man.
	And if I was a young man, I'd studied hard, I'd got my degree, and then I come out of university and I got a really good job, $35,000 a year or something like that, or $50,000 a year.
	And I'm setting myself up very nicely.
	And I look around at the women I'm surrounded by, I'm going to be quite annoyed.
	I'd work for you.
	I mean, you can go join a church there.
	I mean, those women are still out there.
	Those very traditional women are out there.
	Sure.
	But maybe that's the problem, though, because there are going to be women in the men in those communities that are already doing the things you're doing.
	And it means you have to go outside of your own community.
	That means it's outside of your own regular bubble.
	You've got to start doing things that really, like, is that, is like what we want?
	Because it feels like a retreat, right?
	It feels like a retreat from things that are good into the ever, you know, from the ever-expanding side of things that are bad.
	And I don't think that's healthy.
	I mean, like, I think so.
	At some point, we kind of have to step back because a lot of the language that you're using, there are certain things that exist that I would view as like the evolution of the progress of society would be good.
	But obviously, you view them as like a negative thing that'd be bad.
	I think that we have to stop and ask, like, what is like there are, there are going to be ways that culture will invariably change going forward into the future, and that can't be stopped.
	That's just the way that things are.
	Changes will be.
	For some of this, yeah.
	And for some of this, you just, you have to get ready for it, and then society will change and evolve and adapt to it.
	And that's just how it goes.
	And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
	It could be a bad thing.
	Not necessarily a bad thing.
	It could be.
	But I think that it's probably important to look at what particular things we're talking about and then find out if this is something to be worried about.
	The only reason I say that is because we hit on the promiscuity thing a lot.
	And so in terms of that, how that topic goes, I think that the obsession over like virginity or a very low number of sexual partners, I consider that to be really mentally unhealthy.
	I think that that's a positive change going forward.
	Now, that doesn't mean that I think that somebody should try to fuck a new person every weekend or something like that throughout their entire college years or whatever.
	But I think that if you're intentionally abstaining from sexual intercourse until you get married and have your wedding bed or whatever, that to me is a very strange behavior that I would consider to be probably not good.
	Well, sorry to push on this.
	Why do you find promiscuity to be an acceptable or good thing to have happen?
	So I consider sexual relationships to be, I consider the sexual component to a relationship to be one of the most, a very, very, very important part of your relationship.
	It's like a deal breaker to some people in terms of like how that goes.
	If you have no sexual experience, then I don't know how you could expect to enter a relationship knowing that you want to be with that person for the rest of your life if you haven't, if you don't even know what you want in terms of how that goes.
	I think that that's incredibly damaging in my opinion.
	It feels from the way you frame this that you're talking about sort of physical pleasure and direct satisfaction.
	Yeah.
	But I think that what the young men who are arguing, who coach Redpill is providing a voice for, I don't think they're actually thinking of in those terms.
	I think they're thinking in terms of the sacred, as in this woman is my woman.
	She's special to me and no one else.
	And I think that the problem that modern promiscuous culture has is that it destroys that completely.
	And then these men aren't really interested in the women other than just for a lay.
	Yeah, I mean, I guess that goes.
	I mean, we're going to veer off into like some basically how do we feel like people should think about things.
	Like, I, if I, I don't think that, like, the idea that when you start to have a sexual relationship with somebody, that you all of a sudden like are owning their entire past.
	And if anybody else has had sex with them, now it's ruined for you or whatever.
	In my opinion, those thoughts stem from a lack of confidence or a lack of self-esteem.
	I think it's strange.
	Yeah, that's what I would say.
	I shouldn't say things hard.
	I'm trying to load it that way.
	But like, you should be able to engage in a certain relationship with somebody.
	Like, well, I'm going to.
	So the thing I'm going to say is that you wouldn't apply that to any other type of behavior.
	Like, oh, I want to play games with him, but he's played against some else.
	But then the counter argument is probably going to be, well, sexuality is a more sacred thing.
	And so it's different.
	It's unique, more unique than any other thing.
	But then I guess I would disagree with that.
	And we just fall down on either like religious or moral lines, I guess.
	Don't you think there is something a bit different to the loving relationship between a man and a woman and the bro relationship with the guy you play video games with?
	Yeah, I do, but I think it's kind of sad to reduce all of that to your sexual interaction.
	Like there are people that I can engage in sexual activity with and it's just a fun, like physical, pleasurable time.
	But then there's somebody that like I truly, truly love and I can share that experience with them and it'll be different than anybody else.
	But that special experience is going to be extended to literally every other thing we do as well.
	Like I can watch a movie with a friend or even like a fuck buddy and it can be fun.
	Or I can like cuddle up with somebody that I really love and we can like get candles out and we can like eat and watch a movie or whatever.
	And that's going to be like a special different experience.
	I don't think that the experience itself is like intrinsically what makes it special, whether it's sexual or something or not.
	That's how I would view it.
	I don't know.
	I think there is something intrinsic with the way you feel and the person who feels love for you that I think you do create a kind of special honestly, it's almost like a sort of magic spell.
	You know, when you've made a commitment to someone and they make a commitment to you, there is a kind of purity there.
	And that's why betrayal in the form of cheating is so and rightfully morally repugnant.
	Because you knew that that was something that existed between you and you broke it anyway for a sordid desire.
	And even if you're okay with that, I can still see the perspective of the men who aren't okay with that.
	I agree with them.
	I don't think I would want to, I wouldn't want someone who is just known as the town bicycle.
	That would not be the kind of woman I'd be going for.
	Sure.
	I mean, you can say that, but I would never fuck a woman who has never seen a dick in her life, right?
	Like, I mean, like, we can look at it as like the town bicycle is what you can call it.
	But then I would look at another woman who's going to see a penis and cry because she doesn't know what the fuck to do with it because she's a fucking virgin, right?
	So, I mean, you can load either side the way that you want it.
	But, like, when we talk about like betrayal or commitment, unless we're talking like Back to the Future or Stein's Gate or Primer or some time travel movie, it's I don't think it's a betrayal or a befuddlement of your commitment if you had sex in the past with somebody else, right?
	The reason why cheating and all of that is bad is because you're doing something, you're violating an agreement that is currently standing, I think.
	But, but I think that the way that these young men are seeing it is that these women don't have a sense of the, let me, let me think of how to frame this because I want to be precise, but I'm using terms that aren't measurable.
	Uh, so I think that these men, uh, were, I, let's, let's assume we're thinking of men who have done the right thing, right?
	There's.
	They've made good decisions, they've done their, you know, they've gone to college, they've been decent.
	They've lived the TradCon life is what you're saying.
	Yeah.
	Not necessarily, you know, in the way that we're thinking of it.
	But yeah, they've basically taken care of themselves.
	They've made of themselves and they've made sensible decisions.
	They've made of themselves a marriageable prospect, you know, the sort of man that would be desirable to women.
	And then they look around and see a lot of women who have done nothing, who have not given any consideration to what would make them a marriageable prospect.
	And one of those things, whether we find this progressive or not, is not to have had just licentious sex with dozens of guys.
	Like, I can totally understand why a man doesn't want a woman like that.
	And so I think there is a just expectation on the part of the men that there should be some constraints on women's behavior in order to preserve a kind of sanctity.
	Now, I'm not saying that that means every woman has to be a virgin, although that is, of course, the extreme of that position.
	But I do think there is something to it that maybe, you know, if you say just have sex with people that you're in a long-term committed relationship with, then you're not ruining the sort of sacred nature of the image that they have in their mind of the person they want to be with, the kind of person they want to be.
	Yeah, I mean, I understand that, but I mean, like, my response is very simply going to be: nobody owes you to make themselves ready for you.
	If there's a view of a woman that you want, like, my perfect view of a woman would be somebody that's like relatively attractive, makes a lot of money, and can take care of the house, and is like masters or higher on League of Legends as a support player.
	Now, it would be silly of me to walk around for my entire life decrying all women because nobody matches all of those characteristics.
	Like, I can't really hold women responsible for that.
	Either I have to understand that, well, the culture has moved and I can't make that demand of a woman, or I have to say, like, okay, well, I need to kind of change like what my expectations are because I can't really force my standards onto other people.
	I think that there are still traditional women out there.
	Most of them are probably going to be religious, so you'd have to go to like church communities or something to find those types of people.
	But I don't think that I just don't think it's fair to say, like, well, I prepared myself in this way and I expect to find somebody another way, and there aren't enough of those people.
	And now I'm going to get mad at all of you for it.
	Like, societies, like, cultures have changed throughout all of human history.
	There is no museum culture that never changes.
	Like, I think you kind of have to move along with that to some extent.
	Yeah, but that seems to me like we're essentially allowing women to abstain from the question, do they have a civilizational duty?
	Because I think that the men we've described here have considered themselves essentially to have fulfilled their civilizational duty, making of themselves marriageable men.
	And if there are very few marriageable women, then, and you know, you've got feminists going around going, yeah, be as fat as you can, have a sex with many as you can, make yourself as unattractive as possible, have lots of abortions, you know, like this, this is essentially,
	it seems to me that the interpretation is we actually don't care about your expectations, and so we are deliberately saying, um, essentially, you have got to lower your standards, and we nothing can be asked of us, even though things will be asked of men.
	Well, in terms of things that will be asked of men, like okay, so now I'm going to come down a little hard on the other side.
	So, when we say women can abstain from the questions of civilizational duty, men have met their obligations.
	If you are a man that's met that TradCon obligation, you can find the woman you're looking for.
	The problem, I think, is that there are a lot of men who pretend they've met those obligations, but they clearly have not.
	And now they're upset that they can't find women that have.
	If you're a man and you've met those like traditional obligations, if you're 27, 28, 30 years old, you're doing decent in your career, you look okay, you're not obese, maybe you even go to the gym a little bit, and you're making a six-figure income, you can find the type of woman you're looking for.
	The problem is, I think you have a lot of guys that aren't putting in any of the work that don't look like even presentable.
	They don't know how to dress themselves, they don't do any of that.
	And then they look around and they're like, oh my God, all these women have OnlyFans, and I'm so fucking mad.
	It's like, okay, well, I'm sorry, but who are you?
	Right.
	Like, why are you demanding anything?
	Like, you haven't put in the work to make yourself a traditional man.
	You know, why do you expect that a traditional woman is going to fall in your lap?
	You know, for you know, there, there is for every like man out there that's failed to live up to his treadmill responsibilities, complaining about women being, you know, the town bicycles, the town sluts, there's some traditional woman out there complaining about all these men that are like, wow, you know, instead of going to the gym, you play three extra games of League of Legends.
	Or, you know, instead of working a little bit harder in class or doing better at your job, you're fucking raiding all night in World of Warcraft, right?
	So, I mean, yeah, so like, I mean, you can't.
	The problem is that there are people that could complain about the state of dating in the U.S., but when they haven't put in the work themselves, it's hard for me to take them seriously, right?
	So I totally agree with you.
	And I'm happy to take a stick to all of these men and beat them until they get themselves into shape.
	I'm more than happy to.
	But that's the point, isn't it?
	There's very little resistance when it comes to criticizing men for failing in their duty to civilization.
	You know, women don't want to marry a bunch of losers who are, you know, hunched over keyboards and full of monster energy drink.
	No one wants to marry.
	Okay, fine.
	I agree.
	Let's let's let's get these get these guys to get put them to work, basically.
	But we can't seem to say the same thing about women.
	And I think it is fair for us to be able to say the same thing about women.
	I don't know.
	I mean, I feel like the culture has changed quite a bit.
	Like, in terms of, and it's going to be harder for younger people maybe to understand this, but when I don't know if you played games growing up, but I'll talk about this for this for the prospect of video games.
	Yeah.
	When I grew up, okay, and people might think they understand what it's like if you're 20, but you have no idea.
	When I grew up in school, I graduated high school in 2007.
	I'm 32.
	I was born in 88, 1988.
	If you played video games, you were actually like, you were like radiation to put in.
	I played your 40,000 in Dungeons and Trails.
	Okay, all right.
	Then you know exactly what I'm talking about.
	Exactly.
	You're actually like, yeah, you will drive women away from you with your aura of gamerdom.
	Okay.
	It was that extreme growing up.
	It was unbelievable.
	And I think that that culture has dramatically changed.
	If you go to like an LCS game for league, if you look at even in StarCraft audiences or CSGO, if you look at Twitch, I think there's a lot more women today.
	Now, it still hasn't reached parity with men.
	I don't know if it ever will, but there are like way more women that are involved in that today.
	So the idea that like women won't touch nerds or whatever, I don't think that's true.
	I think in terms of how the mainstream culture has moved, you know, in the early mid-2000s, we had like the metrosexual stuff.
	Now we've got like way more like kind of geeky, nerdy guys being in like sitcoms and stuff.
	You still have kind of like that trad male, like James Bond kind of figure is still out there.
	But I think there has been a big widening of what is acceptable in terms of male like appearance and hobby.
	Like men that play games are okay.
	Not if you do it like 15 hours a day and you're perpetually living off of Cheetos and Mountain Dew.
	But I think that like video games have become like a more acceptable or nerdy men have become more acceptable kind of matches, which I think like shows like women kind of adjusting their standards a little bit as well.
	Well, I mean, conversely, the marriage rate is declining, the birth rate is declining, like things don't seem to be going very well.
	Mental health problems are skyrocketing, you know, drug problems skyrocketing.
	Is it going okay?
	I mean, is it maybe something that actually we need to reconsider?
	I think that there are definitely problems.
	If we talk about like marriage rates or birth rates going down, I think that's a lot different than if we look at like drug problems or mental health.
	I would separate some of these out.
	So like for instance, birth rates going.
	I actually think that they're directly connected.
	But sorry, well, I'd be careful just because I'm saying like when we talk about like birth rate, for instance, some decrease in the birth rate is really good, right?
	So it used to be that like women would have six to 10 kids per person because a lot of them would die during childbirth or diet of disease.
	So it's probably good that that comes down somewhat, right?
	Now, maybe not to 1.5 where it is in the Westmark, but maybe like to two to three or whatever, right?
	But that's why I'm suffering at like birth rate.
	So I think there's a lot of really complicated problems that we have to look at in terms of how this works to like parse out like what is good and what is bad.
	For instance, like in our world, it is becoming an increasing requirement to be more and more educated in order to thrive in today's economy, right?
	You have to be more and more educated.
	And as a result of that, you're not like ready to actually seriously date until you're what, like 22, 23, 24, 25, depending on like where you're at, because you've got to go to college, you have to get a degree.
	Whereas in the past, you're getting like, you're starting families and stuff at like 14, 15, like it's not uncommon growing up.
	So like, I think that that has probably contributed to a big change.
	And I don't know if that's considered bad or not.
	Like, is it bad that we wait until we're like in our 20s to start big relationships like this?
	Yeah.
	I think, no, no, I think you're correct.
	I mean, obviously, you know, go back 300 years and things definitely need improving.
	No question of it.
	And the arguments are just at that time.
	But I think that we are in a different world now and we need to start reassessing the position we're in and perhaps recovering some of the virtues that also allowed the people from that time to get through that time.
	And one of those was actually a sense of being part of a civilization and you doing your part.
	And I think that this does under, it did underpin a lot of what was going on.
	And you can see it in the propaganda that was put out.
	You know, you look at some of the old wartime propaganda.
	God, I left my door open and one of my cats has got in.
	And the last thing I want is my cats in my office.
	But I guess I'll just have to live with it for now.
	But since I don't just make it sound like I'm saying sexual revolution bad because I'm not saying that.
	But since the sexual revolution, it does seem that the traditional argument for social conservatism has been overridden completely.
	And now, before women are even hitting their 20s, they end up with a body count that they can't come back from in the mind of many men.
	And, you know, the OnlyFans and all of the other stuff, all the other, what I guess we could just call sort of perverted incentives that aren't actually good for the long term.
	They're very good for the short term, but they're not good for the long term.
	And that kind of short-term thinking, I think, is really hurting them.
	And one of the things we cover on the podcast quite often, because I'm always just like, this proves my point, is the 40-year-old wine aunt type who's like, I can't find a man, even though I own six figures.
	Why aren't men attracted to me?
	Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	It's like because you're infertile and you out-earn him.
	That's why.
	And this is one of those hard, natural truths that you can't get around.
	Men aren't into it.
	Women marry up and men marry down when it comes to financial status.
	That's just the way the human race seems to work.
	Yeah, I mean, there's like a lot.
	There's a lot.
	I think it's easy to tie a lot of movements together and blame one thing while missing another.
	So something that argues with socialists a lot.
	A lot of people say like the rise of capitalism has contributed to unprecedented environmental damage.
	I don't think it's so much capitalism.
	I think it's like industrialization.
	So like socialist societies that are heavily industrialized are going to pollute.
	They did pollute a lot.
	That's China.
	And yeah, yeah, or the Soviet Union.
	Drain some of the largest cities in the world, the RLC.
	That's the point.
	Yeah, so I wouldn't blame capitalism or socialism.
	I would say it's probably industrialization is probably what's done things.
	When we look at like people getting depressed and not feeling like they're part of a civilization, I feel like people will take these really big problems and everybody's kind of got their pet project or everybody's got like their, this is how I view the world.
	I'm a feminist or I'm an alt-writer or I'm a liberal or I'm whatever.
	And people will take their one lens and say, my issue that I care about the most just coincidentally happens to be the one reason why everything got destroyed.
	So when I look at like, when I, when I look at the feeling of being alienated from civilization, it feels like certain types want to like place a lot of the onus on that like sexual liberation part or whatever.
	I don't necessarily feel like that's the case.
	Whenever I talk about like mental health or whatever, there are four big pillars that I recognize as being probably like essential parts of the human experience to where like if these four pillars get fucked, you're going to start to get fucky.
	One is diet.
	And I don't mean like eating like the purest of fucking food.
	I just mean like having a reasonably healthy diet.
	You're getting a reasonable variety of micronutrients.
	Fuck off the monster energy drink.
	No, you can have a monster energy drink.
	I'm not even talking about that.
	If you want to drink a monster a day, that's fine.
	But just make sure it's not fried food.
	Sure, yeah.
	Make sure, well, I say that because like a lot of people, when you mention diet, they're like, oh, yeah, I need to eat salads every day.
	I'm just saying like, just don't eat like a fried meal like for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every single day.
	Like just have like a reasonable, even if it's like fucking Chipotle or burritos with vegetables in them, like just balance it out a little bit, right?
	There's the diet thing.
	There's the sleep thing.
	I think that, and I've had so many friends with mental illness.
	I would have never said this before being 30, but I've known so many people with mental illness now where being out and awake when the sun is out does things to the body.
	I don't know why, but your mood will viscerally improve if you're just awake when the sun is out.
	So like having your sleep somewhat in order, make sure that you're awake when the sun is out.
	Three is some type of activity in the day.
	So like an hour of like walking or just doing something, just moving your body in some way.
	And then four is like having some type of friend group.
	I think that like these things are like the for what I've identified personally, this is just me.
	It doesn't mean like this isn't Dr. River.
	Like I think that these four pillars are really, really, really important to build like a life on.
	And when these things start to fall out of whack, you get fucked.
	I think that our modern condition has taken us away from a lot of these things.
	And one of the points that you bring out about being part of a civilization, I think that the internet, I think, has damaged a lot of that.
	Because nowadays, and I noticed this, I don't know what you're following me, but I try to get a lot more involved in like local political scenes over the past couple of years.
	Local politics is for losers.
	Nobody cares about it.
	Nobody wants to, right?
	Why would I give a fuck about who my like state representative is, let alone somebody on my city council, when I can talk about the presidency, when I can talk about what's happening in Iran, when I can talk about what's going on with Brexit, right?
	Still going to get the big numbers.
	Yeah, well, not even big numbers.
	Even that's the thing.
	It's not even for internet people.
	It's for like normal human beings, right?
	Like you can find kids on the street that are going to college that know more about Brexit and know more about like the trade deals that the that Great Britain is trying to set up with the EU than they know about like any than they know who their mayor is.
	They don't even know who their mayor is, right?
	Or they don't know who their governor is for their state.
	I'm one of these people.
	I have no idea who the mayor of my town is.
	I know that we have to.
	Yeah, sure.
	And I don't blame you.
	Like I'm very similar.
	I try to be more conscious now because I talk about it so much.
	But like, yeah, I was the same.
	I was like, because why would I care about anything local when everything is national?
	But I think that that, but you don't, you don't, you don't exist as a national person.
	I think leftists miss this a lot.
	You don't exist as like a class or you don't exist as a nation.
	You're an individual and you live in a pretty small area.
	You tend to go to the same stores.
	You tend to see the same people.
	You tend to live in the same city.
	And when we fixate on these like really national things, I think that very quickly you can get super alienated from everything around you.
	And I think that these types of things are what feed into people being miserable, having mental illness, like not wanting to get married, not moving out for a long time, doing bad at their jobs.
	I would blame like that trend more than just like women are being more promiscuous.
	That's kind of how I look at things.
	Oh, I think I think these things are connected, to be honest.
	I don't think that they're entirely different.
	Just to just cover what you said there, I completely agree with you on what I guess we can describe as monomania, taking one lens and identifying something true through that lens and assuming that explains all of reality.
	I completely agree with you.
	That's why I was trying.
	I didn't want to say, look, sexual revolution bad, right?
	That's not what I'm saying.
	But I do think that something was unlocked there that has led onto a series of sort of almost like, you know, domino effects.
	Sort of if you do this, then this becomes permissible and then this becomes permissible.
	And then it, you know, goes to the bottom.
	Okay, so like I can, I can meet you halfway here, right?
	So maybe like you're saying that like women's promiscuity is bad.
	Maybe the way that I would frame that is people aren't able to find like more fulfilling relationships in society because of how alienated we are from each other.
	And one of the replacements to that is hopping on Tinder and just meeting somebody for like a casual sexual experience.
	And maybe that so like, so in that case, I wouldn't say like women's promiscuity is bad.
	What I would say is that like we're so alienated from each other, we can't form healthy relationships anymore.
	One of the symptoms of that might be an increase in promiscuity from all sides.
	Like it might be like women being promiscuous.
	It might be men masturbating to way too much porn.
	Yeah.
	Potentially, sure.
	Yeah.
	I think the reason that the Coach Redpill Brigade would say yes, but we need to talk about women is because they would say something like women control access to sex.
	Yeah, kind of, but it's weird because as men, we always look at it from the male point of view, but as women, it's different.
	Like men will complain that women control access to sex, but then women will complain that like maybe men control access to relationships.
	So you have like, yeah, you have different disagreements on both sides.
	So like, here's like a common complaint from a man.
	A man will look at a woman and be like, how the fuck can you be so miserable?
	You can hop on Tinder and fuck 40 guys tonight if you wanted to.
	Fuck you forever complaining about anything.
	But the woman will say like, okay, yeah, I can go and fuck 40 people, but that's not necessarily what I want.
	Like I would like to be in like a nice, fulfilling relationship, but it's really hard to find a guy that matches that, right?
	That might be the complaint from their side.
	Or maybe a woman can only find guys that want to fuck, but they're not good like matches for relationships.
	So I think there's like different styles of complaints on different sides and we tend to get kind of rooted in our own.
	And I'm guilty of that.
	I've been guilty of that in the past.
	I was like, fuck, like, how can you complain as a woman?
	Like, you're fucking beautiful.
	I have women.
	I have women friends that are pretty and live in LA and I'll look at their Tinders and they'll open a Tinder and be like, oh, hello, I got 2,000 matches in like three days.
	That's not an exaggeration.
	No.
	Oh, my God.
	But then when you actually watch how they interact with the platform, it's really overwhelming.
	Like you've got like a thousand fucking guys are all giving you like this, hey, what's up, blah, blah, blah.
	Like half of these guys are fucking rapists.
	It's like some crazy shit.
	It's difficult on that end, too.
	And I could be more like sympathetic towards that end.
	Like, I think there's a lot of problems on both sides of how we relate to each other.
	Well, no, I think you've actually hit the nail on the head here, really.
	I think you've identified the crux of the problem, especially between the men and the women.
	I think that it is right that women control access to sex, but men control access to the relationships.
	And that's the problem, isn't it?
	Women want men who are of a certain level of impressiveness.
	How to describe it, I suppose, who want a commitment.
	And in return, they have to offer something.
	So they have an obligation in return.
	And that obligation is to not be a slag.
	And whether they like it or not, they can say, well, that's not fair.
	No, it's not fair.
	This is not fair at all.
	Okay.
	It's not fair.
	Right.
	Now, we've accepted it's not fair.
	Women are supposed to.
	And what are they supposed to do?
	Well, they're supposed to do the things that men want to commit to.
	Be the kind of woman a man would want to commit to.
	And in the reverse, be the kind of man a woman wants to have sex with.
	You know, don't sit there, you know, oh, women are so awful because they won't have sex with me.
	Well, that's because you're not good enough.
	You know, you have to improve.
	But by the same standard, women have to take care of that which they have been endowed with by nature.
	And if they don't, if they're just wanting with it, if they're just giving it away on Twitter every day, then I'm not shocked that they can't find men who will commit.
	And to be honest with you, there's a part of me that's kind of like, well, you get what you deserve, don't you?
	You know, this.
	I mean, like, yeah, and I understand what you're saying there.
	We're kind of going circles, but like, I would argue it's the same on the other end.
	Like, if you're making six figures as a guy and you're doing really well in life, you can find these women.
	But if you're on Twitter all day or you're on 4chan and you're just complaining about how all women are sluts and all women are horrors, you're in the class of man where the type of woman you're looking for are complaining, all men are lazy fucks that play too many video games.
	They don't earn any money.
	They haven't taken care of themselves.
	Like I said, if you're not going to be a trad man, you can't look for a trad woman.
	If you're not willing to put in the work that you need to be a trad man, then you can't really complain that there's not like these trad women that are lining up for you.
	And I think that if you are putting in the work to be that top 5%, sorry, that top 5%, that top 1%, whatever type of man, you can find those virgin, whatever women that you're really interested or really want to be with.
	I have to be the devil's advocate on that one.
	I think it probably does become a lot more difficult.
	It seems that the nature naturally provides women with an incentive not to be the kind of woman that modern feminism will incentivize her to be.
	And we have kind of broken that covenant with nature by saying, well, look, we can actually control a woman's fertility now.
	And so go nuts.
	And it's like, okay, well, that was one thing that we could do, but you couldn't control men's desire for a sacred partner.
	You couldn't do that.
	And I don't think you can do that.
	think that that's a kind of eternal immutable characteristic when it's men looking for that wife that they want i think that's i mean i don't yeah i guess maybe that's like for a separate discussion i did that That type of desire just like is really weird for a man.
	I mean, you can, you don't like it, because theoretically at this point, what I would say then is the biggest immediate fix that you could find for society is women should just lie about how many men they've been with.
	And now you've got a woman that can go and be a slag, whatever you want to call her, and then she can find a trad husband and she can be like, oh, I'm a virgin.
	And the husband be like, okay, cool.
	And then you go to fight.
	Now everybody's happy because she got to do her shit.
	And now the guy thinks he's with a virgin.
	He's not going to fucking know the difference.
	So I mean, like, we have to break out Jordan Peterson here.
	Come on.
	What do you mean by?
	All lies get found out eventually.
	Well, depends on the type of lie, maybe.
	Come on.
	You know that you can't.
	I mean, A, I think a priori, it would be bad to just have a world constructed of lies, no matter what the lies were, no matter what the world was, right?
	I think that in a way that yeah, probably, I know.
	I'm just saying that like that type of desire, like I think you should probably want a woman that will commit to you, but this fixation on finding like the virgin woman or whatever.
	I mean, you can do it.
	I think that's a problem.
	Like I said, like, you know.
	Maybe.
	I mean, like, when we talk about like, for instance, like women marrying up and men marrying down, people talk about that.
	That's not really true.
	What happens is, is if I'm speaking in very broad generalities, okay?
	So for lefties trying to counsel me, okay, I'm speaking very broadly.
	Women tend to be valued for things like youthfulness, purity, appearance, stuff like that.
	Men tend to be valued for things like status and income and accomplishments.
	And the way that we see this kind of, yeah, the way that we see this is, I agree.
	I think that's true.
	Yeah.
	The way that we see this play out socially is like, I think that, fuck, there was a, there's, you can even find a wiki article I think that talks about this.
	There's like a stat where it's like the considered like one of the ideal dating ages for a man is like 30.
	And like the ideal dating age for a woman, I think is like 23 or 24.
	The idea being that like if you're a 30-year-old man and you're really accomplished, you can go and fuck through or date as many 20-year-old women as you want.
	You can't do that as a 20-year-old man looking for 30-year-old women, unless you're like exclusively after cougars or whatever.
	Because women don't value like youthfulness or whatever, right?
	So, I mean, like, if, so we're, again, we're going kind of like in circles.
	If you are a man.
	I don't think we're going in circles.
	What I think we're doing is refining the thoughts.
	Sure.
	Well, the reason I'm saying we're going through this because I'm going to repeat what I said before.
	If you're a man and you're 30 and you're super accomplished, you can find the women that you're looking for.
	They're not going to be 30-year-old women.
	They're going to be 20, 21-year-old women.
	You can find them.
	They're absolutely out there that are in college, that are relatively traditional, that have a very, if it's important to you, a very low or zero body count.
	You can find them, but you've got to be built up to such a way that you're attracted to those people.
	And being a 24-year-old that just complains on the internet all day while contributing to Git projects for scraping porn sites is not going to be the type of woman, or is not going to be the type of man that a trad wife is looking for.
	That's all that's all I'm saying.
	No, no, I agree.
	But that's the point, isn't it?
	What I think we've done since the 90s onwards is essentially miscarried in what we should be advising young people with, right?
	The general cultural atmosphere they should be in.
	Ideally, if I were to be like, right, okay, look, this is the perfect world that I would like to see.
	I would like it so that there was enough freedom to be able to make mistakes and experiment, obviously.
	But I do think that we should have a kind of overarching, dare I say, parental view that, look, these are things that you should know, right?
	These are, you know, women, if you mess excessively with your personal purity, then that's never coming back.
	You're never getting that back.
	You're always going to be stuck with that and it's not going to work out in the way you want.
	You are not at 35 going to find the man of your dreams and settle down, which is, you know, a lot of them think that they will.
	You know, a lot of them.
	Sure.
	So hang on, but conversely, conversely, men, get the fuck out of the house.
	Stop being a layabout.
	Stop playing video games.
	You know, like get and do something.
	Build yourself up, you know, earn some money, whatever it is.
	And then you will be in a better position.
	And, you know, we're talking, we're thinking of like 10 out of 10s, but we should really be thinking about five out of tens.
	So we're thinking of a woman who has made a couple of mistakes when she was 18, 19, but is, you know, by the time she's like 25, she's like, no, no, no, I'm never doing that again.
	That was a mistake.
	You know, that's an acceptable sort of level of like, you know, impurity, I guess.
	I don't like using the terms purity and impurity, but you know what I mean.
	It's an acceptable level of sort of wearing of the world.
	And on the other side, the man doesn't have to be earning six figures, but as long as he's maybe using 30 or 40 grand and he's, you know, put down a mortgage on a two-bedroom house or something, that's a good start.
	You know, that's a good start.
	And that's, you know, so the two fives can find each other and be like, yeah, no, this is an acceptable compromise.
	You know, this person has the things basically that I'm looking for.
	He's not the 10.
	She's not the 10.
	Okay, I got it.
	But we can create something special with a commitment and a love for each other that then can be built on.
	And neither one is so sullied that it makes it impossible for that relationship to be formed.
	I think that's the ideal that we should be aiming for.
	Yeah, I kind of, I think I kind of agree a little bit.
	I talk about this a lot when I, especially when I look at threads on like relationships or sex.
	It seems like sometimes a lot of people give very unrealistic expectations about the world and about consequences for actions.
	So for instance, I'll read a lot of threads that'll like somebody will come in and they'll say like, hey, like I only, I'm going to be really extreme here.
	It'll be like, hey, like one of my eyes hangs out of my eye socket.
	Do you think anybody will judge me for this?
	Now, the correct answer to this is, yeah.
	A lot of people are going to find that pretty strange.
	But if you look hard enough, I'm sure that you can find somebody for you that like will accept you for who you are.
	And like, it'll be tough, but you can do it, right?
	That's the correct answer.
	But that's not like the answer that we give anymore in society.
	Now it's like, no, you're fine.
	You're beautiful.
	Everything is okay.
	Everything is fine.
	Everything's great.
	Everything is okay.
	And I think people get like really warped perceptions of like the mistakes that they can make and then how they're treated afterwards or the life mistakes they can make.
	And then like the type of treatment logo afterwards where people are like, wait a second, I thought I could do anything and make any mistake and have any problem and everybody should love me.
	Except it's like, well, no, that's not how anybody works.
	You were like, nobody agrees with it.
	Basically, yeah.
	But then I will say a little bit more when we talk about the freedom to make mistakes.
	This is something where like contraceptives and abortions are actually incredibly positive.
	Oh, yeah.
	Because if I'm a man and I make a mistake and I'm 15 and I knock a girl up, well, fuck it.
	You can like move to another fucking country and be like, peace out or whatever, never pay fucking child support, like duck everything.
	You theoretically could do that as a guy.
	Whereas for the woman, more often than not, they're like stuck taking care of the kid.
	They have no financial ability to meet it.
	They've got to live with their parents for the rest of their life.
	And now they're completely fucked.
	Right.
	So I think that, in terms of that, like contraception or like more reproductive freedom, allows us to kind of like sort out these mistakes a little bit more equitably so that like, a woman making a mistake isn't destroying her whole life, whereas a man can kind of like run from his mistakes.
	You've got, you know, the stereotype of a guy.
	That's like got like five or six kids in different stages or whatever.
	Right yeah yeah no I, I well, I agree, I mean, like this, this is the thing I I, this is why i'm not saying, you know, contraception is bad for the human race and, like you know, the the extreme sort of elements of the traditional conservative argument.
	But I, I do.
	I do think that we do need to start essentially becoming more adult with the way that we look at these things, and I think that there's, I think there's, a remarkable amount of agreement on this point.
	Isn't there like that your decisions have consequences and the other side of the gender war uh, is looking for something, and if you don't fulfill that then ladies, you may find yourself a 40 year old cat woman who no man will commit to.
	Uh, and men, you won't find a woman who wants to you to have committed to them, you know.
	So I, I just think that this is a more honestly, a more wholesome way of putting forward gender relations, kind of yeah, and I know you just got to be careful because like, I think I think older women and this is something i've looked at polling data before because I this is perplexes me, but it seems to be the case that women are a little bit more okay being on their own than men are.
	Um so like, when you look at polling data for like, women that are looking for relationships versus not, and their age or whatever, it seems like women are okay.
	Like that threat doesn't hold true.
	Like, if you go to a man, you're like hey, you're gonna be alone for the rest of your life.
	You don't get your shit together.
	For a lot of guys that's like a pretty spooky concept, but it seems like for a much greater percentage of women, they're like, okay, i've got friends, i'll be, i'll deal, I.
	I think they would certainly tell a pollster that yeah well, I mean like there's a lot of reasons why people theorize this might be the case.
	Um, but I but I mean like it, I mean anecdotally, it seems to be the case, like it's more common for me to find a man in my life that is uh like really depressed because they're alone and like hates themselves for it, versus women don't seem to have that same issue.
	You don't find as many women that are like oh like, i'm 18 and i'm I don't have a bf yet and i'm gonna kill myself right, like that's.
	There's a reason why the memes are like, no gf, no gf, no gf, right?
	Um, I think that there's also.
	There's also a reason why the the meme for women is the baby rabies.
	When they reach their mid-30s and realize, oh my god, i'm going to be alone and childless forever, sure that you can definitely run into like the baby crazy, for sure yeah, of course yeah well I, I got married at what?
	36, and so I I, you know, dated right up until that.
	Well, you know, before that.
	But like uh it, the baby rabies thing is definitely true.
	It's definitely true.
	Yeah, of course, Depending on the woman, for sure, yeah.
	Yeah, it is depending on the woman, but there's a certain category in general, generally, yeah, it's it's generally it's true, yeah.
	People start to, yeah, for sure.
	But, but again, it's it's that that's the point, though, isn't it?
	You know, young men who have no idea how they're going to get a wife, and women who have realized that basically they've been lied to for their fertile years and now have realized, oh my god, actually, there was a clock on this.
	And I think it is a consequence of it's essentially the kind of short-term thinking that we see everywhere, especially in popular culture.
	It's all about short-term thinking, and there's never any credence given to the sort of long view of what your life is going to be.
	You know, and I mean, I've seen so many stories.
	There was one the other day of the woman who 10 years ago froze her eggs, and then she's 40 now, you know, she's going to defrost them, and none of them were viable.
	Wait, what?
	What?
	I don't understand what you mean, froze her ex eggs.
	Oh, not her ex.
	Oh, oh, oh, never mind.
	Her eggs.
	Sorry, yeah.
	No, no, no.
	Yeah, that sounds fair.
	Okay, okay, gotcha.
	But the point is, none of them were viable.
	And so if you go back 10 years, the scientists who told her, oh, yeah, you'll be able to defrost these and they'll be fine, they were just lying.
	They didn't know.
	They thought potentially.
	I mean, like, we've definitely gotten away from a lot of being truthful about how life is.
	I talk about this a lot.
	Whenever I'm talking about like, there's a big difference between like a prescription for like a utopia versus like a description of the reality that exists today.
	And a lot of people get really upset or offended when you talk about like the reality of today versus like what they want the utopia to be tomorrow.
	And people actually attack you over that, which is very frustrating to me.
	Where, you know, like somebody will ask, like, hey, like, if I have this thing, will people judge me for it?
	It'd be really nice if they didn't.
	And maybe in the future, some people won't.
	But right now, they absolutely will.
	And when you talk about how things are today, people get upset about that and they'll almost make prescriptions for like a world that doesn't exist yet, which is very frustrating to me.
	The one I think that really, really is the example that can never be escaped is the fat positive movement.
	Every single day on my Facebook feed, I will see something along the lines of this giant obese woman is healthy.
	It's just a lie.
	It's just a lie.
	Yeah, and I kind of stay away from, I'm not on Facebook, but yeah, that's definitely an issue that.
	But it's this kind of lie that just keeps getting propagated by, you know, the thought leaders, shall we call them.
	Sure.
	And I really, I think it's irresponsible.
	I really think it's irresponsible.
	And I'm just thinking what I'm saying.
	I think that like I agree.
	I agree, but like these are the big criticisms that I've been making of the left recently.
	But then like I'll come back and I'll hit the right equally as hard on this, if not more so.
	So the big criticism I make on the left is that like for a lot of left-leaning people, the politics they talk both like socially and politically, the way that they set themselves out is they are wholly fucking unlikable and they will not meet anybody at where they are right now.
	They are, they, it's, it is an it is an insane level of purity testing.
	And if you divulge on a single point, you are literally fucking Hitler.
	And it's like, okay, well, when certain people get pushed in a certain direction, like you can't really blame yourself.
	You didn't really do anything to get these people on your side.
	Like that's kind of your fault.
	Like I don't really have much sympathy.
	Like, you know, and people even point to I don't want to bring a written house because it's such a such an extreme example.
	But like people will find these people and they'll scream fascists at them for like two years.
	And then two years later, the person will start to make fascist friends and be like, look, I told you.
	And it's like, what do you mean?
	Look, you told you.
	Where were they going to go?
	Yeah.
	What the fuck do you think was going to happen?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But I think that conservatives do this to themselves too a lot, where they won't.
	And I think ironically, as much as people get upset about it, the churches have learned this and they're trying to make a little bit more inroads.
	Where conservatives will, the goal is not to, we can look at like a fat person.
	The goal is not to say like, you fat, disgusting fucking piece of shit.
	Because when you say that, it doesn't sound like you like the person.
	It doesn't sound like you're trying to help them.
	It sounds like you just fucking hate.
	Yeah.
	So, like, when conservatives spend all this time demonizing the fuck out of fat people, calling them fucking horrible, bowling the fuck out of them.
	And now you've got all these crazy, huge fucking people with blue hair that are Marxist or whatever.
	It's like, what the fuck did you think they're going to happen?
	They're not going to hang out with you guys.
	You know, like the way that people talk about issues sometimes, it makes it seem like they don't care about the person.
	They're just trying to infect everybody with their ideology.
	And when they've identified an organism that they can infect, they just write it off and move on.
	And I see people on the left and right do that.
	And then they get so surprised, Pikachu face when in like two years, that person is what they said they were for over ever and ever.
	It's like, okay, well, what the fuck do you think is going to happen?
	You know, no, I think you're completely right.
	And I think that what, so when you were saying that the four things that a person needs, I think you're absolutely right on all of those points.
	And I think that I really want to underscore what you've said there and like expand on it a little bit because like diet diet has been one of those things that has been known to affect your mood long like ancient Greeks.
	Everything about you.
	Ancient Greeks would ancient Greek doctors, right?
	If you had a sort of you know like intellect mental ailment, they would prescribe you a particular kind of diet to change the way that your mind worked essentially.
	And I'm sure that they got some results out of this because otherwise they wouldn't have kept doing it.
	And so that's totally true.
	And the sleep thing, I agree, the sun, right?
	And this is coming from someone who, all through his, you know, teenage years and university years would stay up till four or five in the morning, then go to sleep, and then, you know, you know how it goes.
	I used to sleep as soon as I got home from school and then wake up at 1 a.m.
	So my parents wouldn't bother me so that I could just play video games.
	So I know exactly.
	You know exactly where I'm coming from, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	And this is exactly the reason I set up an office and a business, right?
	So, and I set the hours nine to five.
	So every day I have to get up, cycle my bike to my office.
	So I'm getting the exercise as well.
	And I'm awake during the day and then I go home and I play games till about midnight and then I go to sleep, you know.
	But I deliberately set this routine for myself because it is the right thing to do, whether you like it or not.
	You know, it's just human beings have evolved this way.
	It's just good for them.
	You get better outcomes.
	Just accept it.
	Move on.
	The next one is exercise.
	Completely agree.
	I mean, you know, science supports this.
	I don't know why we have to make that a controversial subject.
	Oh, science doesn't support exercise.
	Bullshit.
	You know, I've heard that argument been made.
	Obvious bullshit.
	Go and get, go for a run, Fatty.
	You know, that's, and that's what I did to myself.
	But the final one I think that you've really hunted is relationships, right?
	You were talking about friendships, but we could just broadly categorize this as relationships.
	And I've been thinking about this a lot because I think that actually the real content and value of a human life is in the relationships that they have with other people, right?
	It's that's what you remember.
	I don't remember what my score on Rome Total War was 10 years ago, but I do remember having a tremendous amount of fun with my friends, you know, and it was the shared experience that was really magical.
	And it's still, you know, why I don't regret any of it, you know, because really, what did I do?
	I kind of wasted my 20s, to be honest, but I don't regret it because I at least was living a life I was happy with with people I liked and you know and loved in a platonic way.
	And so that, and that extends obviously into your ability to make families.
	This is and the and you know, the relationship.
	It's a real quick addition to that.
	It used to be that one of the most common ways we would meet significant others was through friends, like introducing them.
	That has plummeted dramatically to where now it's more common to find people online or whatever.
	So, you know, yeah, absolutely.
	And it's terrible.
	It's online dating and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
	But yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right on the relationship point.
	In terms of you saying online dating has been a disaster.
	So I'm going to disagree a little bit, but I kind of agree.
	I think what happened was, I'm going to go back to the original Facebook.
	I talk about this a lot to my friends or to my stream, I should say.
	I guess they're my friends at this point.
	Yeah, you got yourself there, didn't you?
	That was a must.
	No, they are my friends.
	That's why they subscribe to me.
	Okay, don't come after my friends.
	Hey, dude, what do you think my subscribers are?
	Exactly.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	I'm going to say that that actually highlights the point of relationships, though, doesn't it?
	But sorry, Karen.
	Sure, yeah.
	Although I'm very far off the norm, so I try not to compare myself.
	But like, when we look back at the original Facebook, okay?
	Were you ever on the original?
	Was that available in the UK?
	You know, I wasn't.
	I think I joined Facebook in like 2010, something like that.
	I'm actually quite late to Facebook.
	Okay, so it changed a little bit.
	The original Facebook was, in my opinion, an example of really good social media.
	Because social media was originally, when we all thought about it as kids, social media was supposed to exist to augment our social relationships, our real lifetime.
	And the early Facebook was used almost exclusively for like checking into parties or like making like dates with like friends or something.
	That's what you're doing.
	Meet me at the cinema.
	Yeah, exactly.
	You check into parties, you like have shit or whatever, you like post events.
	That's what social media was for.
	And at some point, somewhere along the way, online interactions, instead of augmenting or improving our real-life interactions, became replacements for them.
	So I don't think that online dating is necessarily bad, but when online dating replaces real-life dating, or when it takes over it completely, or when you're not just using it, it's like, well, maybe I can meet another person I wouldn't normally find or whatever.
	When instead that becomes the only option you have, or all of these online interactions are the only interaction you have, now you've run into a massive problem.
	Whereas these tools were supposed to make your real life better, now they've become your real life.
	And I think that is incredibly harmful, such that you're better off without it at all, probably.
	Well, except everybody else is on it.
	So if you're not, now you're like completely isolated even more.
	See, now that that's exactly the point, isn't it?
	But anyway, so like driving, driving that point, though, back to the obligation that men and women have, I think that that's how we establish it because I think relationships are a necessary component to human happiness.
	And real life relationships, like human touch, you know, like actually hugging, that's the necessary, that's really necessary.
	And so you've got to make sure that you're the kind of person someone would want to form that kind of relationship with.
	And if you're a woman, that means taking care of your purity.
	And if you're a man, that means taking care of your competence.
	And I think that that is where we can derive this kind of social secular obligation that will also guarantee that our civilization continues without us having to impose, you know, draconian laws or incentives or anything like that.
	Because I obviously I'm not for that.
	But we have to kind of mature and accept that actually, I think the vision that the monomaniacal vision of the modern left, anyone can be anything and they don't have to take responsibility for anything, wrong.
	That's just not correct.
	Obviously, the conservative extreme on the other side, wrong, you know, this absolute straitjacket of a society that they're going to want as well.
	No, wrong.
	There has to be a kind of moderate compromise in the middle, but it also has to be a bit more mature than what's being presented now, I think, anyway.
	Yeah, and that's basically the way that I summarize this when I talk to people on the left: is that like, I think that deconstructing things is really good.
	I think that taking things apart and finding out like why they work and what they were is good, but you have to be able to put it back together at the end with something that is coherent.
	Like you can't just take everything.
	Like, there's a difference between a child that takes apart a remote and then like puts it all back together and learns the pieces versus a child that just smashes things against the couch and then breaks it and then crawls away, right?
	Like in one case, you're taking things apart and you're learning things, and maybe you can build something cooler in the future.
	And then in the other case, you're just destroying everything and then shitting your diaper and walking around and like being upset about it, right?
	I think that's exactly the right way to frame it as well.
	Exactly the right way.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So we came to a remarkable amount of agreement on this, which I think I'm not at all moved by the purity slag.
	I like women that have a lot of sexual experience, but that's probably just a value thing.
	No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	That's the point, isn't it?
	I'm not saying that in every case, this has to be the case, right?
	I'm just saying that if we don't know who we're talking to, what are you going to recommend to random strangers on the internet?
	And is it going to be be as promiscuous as you can because nothing will ever go wrong?
	Probably not.
	That's probably not wise.
	You know, is it for men?
	Oh, don't ever exercise.
	You know, do drugs and play video games until six in the morning, and that'll go great for you.
	That's not true either.
	You know, just do what you do, but be aware that there are consequences to what you do.
	Just understand.
	Yeah, for sure.
	I agree with that.
	But if, but if, if you're an older chap like ourselves, uh, speaking to younger chaps who might be listening now, you know, be aware that there are consequences.
	And if you want to be a wholesome, healthy human and have the sort of relationships that you're dreaming of, well, you've got to do a few things to get there.
	And unfortunately, they're not always in your favor.
	Sometimes you've got to make some sacrifices.
	You know, you've got to go for that run.
	You've got to get up on time.
	You've got to, you know, you've got to do things.
	And that's just life, isn't it?
	Yeah, sometimes, yeah.
	All right.
	Well, are we good?
	I, yeah, I, this, this was a surprisingly civil conversation.
	I don't know why people in the chat seem to be expecting that we're going to have a big argument about something, but I've tried to explain to people that you're actually someone who is actually quite reasonable.
	Like, I don't know why I've had to say that.
	Sorry.
	I try to present myself as that way sometimes.
	Yeah, but that's always to your credit when you do.
	It's always to your credit.
	But right, okay, well, thanks so much for joining me, man.
	This was just an off-the-cuff thing, and it was really interesting to go through it.
	And I think there's actually a lot of value in what we've been saying here.
	So, yeah, hopefully.
	All right.
	I'll talk to you later.
	Okay.
	Take it easy, man.
	Bye.
	All right.
	Have fun.
	Bye.
	So, Destiny was reasonable, wasn't he?
	What do you think, chat?
	Mostly based.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Mostly based.
	No, don't say stuff like Destiny got roasted.
	He didn't get roasted.
	That was just a very wholesome conversation.
	And I mean, he is, you know, right to be concerned.
	And I imagine in an American context, there's a lot more of a looming threat of, so we say, religious fundamentalism that doesn't really exist in Britain.
	But that was, I think, you know, I think he's definitely in the center.
	Oh, now V's calling me.
	Oh, God.
	Okay.
	You're right, V?
	I mean, yeah, I was watching the debate.
	You're not going to start spamming the N-word or anything, are you?
	No, no.
	You're live?
	I am live, yeah.
	Oh, I didn't know that.
	Yes, you did.
	You were just listening, you liar.
	No, I didn't know you're live.
	I thought you went off the air.
	No, no.
	So there were people in the chat saying that a woman who can't give birth is not a woman.
	And I was thinking, like, when I was at the hospital, do you know how unmanly people with erectile dysfunction feel?
	Like, that's exactly how they say it.
	Like, they come to the doctor, you know, and then they're a little bit upset.
	Like, let's say they have heart problems or something.
	And they say, well, ever since this started, I can't get it up anymore.
	And, you know, and you can almost see they're bursting into tears and they're saying, like, well, I just don't feel like a man.
	And, you know, like, that's how they identify it.
	And I don't know if women who want to have kids but can't would also say something similar.
	You know, but it's definitely like something that's unhappy.
	It's something like if they want to and they can't, you know, they get really depressed and they go to fertility clinic.
	Well, Labor MP Jess Phillips actually said something very similar to that recently because I think she was diagnosed as being infertile now because she's like 40 or something.
	She's had a bunch of kids.
	But she did an interview where she said, not being able to have kids has made me feel like less of a woman.
	And I'm sympathetic to that.
	Like, I don't, I feel like a lot less of a woman because I can't give birth.
	But also, if I couldn't get an erection, I'd feel like a hell of a lot less of a man.
	And I'm totally sympathetic to those to those people who are in that unfortunate position.
	And I think that that is in and of itself a bit of proof, a bit of evidence to suggest that they may well be a kind of biologically essential part of these gender roles.
	That's why I'm not an intersectional feminist.
	I mean, it's like asking to define someone a house.
	And it's like, is a house without windows still a house?
	Is a house without this still a house?
	It's like, you know, you can't just accurately say what exactly makes a house a house, but there are certain things that are needed in order for a house to be, you know, at least on average considered to be a house.
	Now, if you do the same with genders, like people freak out.
	They immediately call you Hitler just if you disagree with the concept, which I don't know if it's that disagreeable by the overwhelming majority of the population.
	Well, if I can't get an erection, then I'm not a man.
	You know, I feel less of a man because I can't do it.
	But I mean, surely women would see you as less of a man as well.
	Yeah.
	And it wouldn't be controversial either.
	Like, no one would call that woman Hitler because she looks at John and John can't get it up.
	And it's like, oh, wow.
	Clearly, because you think less of him, then you're just as bad as Hitler.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, no, I agree.
	Dev.
	Oh, right.
	Sorry.
	Dev was like, what are you guys doing?
	And it's like, oh, streaming.
	Calling women whores.
	What are you doing?
	Obviously, that's not what we're doing.
	But what do you think of the conversation I had with Destiny?
	Any criticisms?
	Any thoughts?
	I thought Destiny made an awfully good argument when he said that, and I probably will make a video on this because this is just mind-blowing.
	You know, like feminists said that a lot of little girls, they look at women magazines and they see all the beauty models.
	And because of that, they feel depressed because they will never be as perfect as the models in Victoria's Secret or whatever.
	So feminists pushed for more diversity.
	It's like body positivity.
	I mean, you get to see all types of women of all shapes and sizes and magazines and whatnot.
	In the hopes that it will get average women to feel good about themselves.
	And then when you look at social media, you see women that not only have cosmetic surgery, but they put a ton of makeup and they add filter.
	I mean, it's like the epitome of fakeness.
	So it's like, it doesn't seem to work.
	I mean, if you're saying that, for example, Marvel needs to have more androgynous women and more body positivity or whatnot, because that's how they were going to get the average woman to feel good about herself.
	I don't see that when I look at the average woman on social media, especially when they present their avatars and stuff.
	No, I totally agree.
	I mean, for some reason, Instagram recommends me nothing but thoughts when I search for anything.
	Like, if I click the search thing on Instagram, everything I follow is political.
	And then I click the search and Instagram's like, hi, would you want to do you want to watch this 20-year-old thought in a, like, literally like some sort of molded on like Chris Schwartz bouncing around?
	And I'm like, well, I mean, yeah, but that's not what I was thinking when I clicked the search button on Instagram.
	But the pictures you're talking about, right?
	Because it's women that use Instagram mostly, obviously.
	And like the pictures, I know the kind of pictures you're thinking of, like the, you know, the female influencers who've got millions of followers.
	And they I watched Now This video or something like that, and you know talking about how much work it was to get to that point because, of course, they're painting themselves, You know, like their face is a canvas, and then they have to spend all of this time exercising to keep in shape.
	And then they, they do you know weird positions and like stuff with clothes and and all of the stuff takes hours to get right, hours and hours, and I'm thinking, holy shit, I never do that for the life of me.
	I'll go read books and write scripts and blah, blah and you know the same bullshit, but just for men, obviously.
	But um, but you are right, you know the, the women do it to themselves yeah, and like, think how pathetic the life of a man needs to be that you want to spend time online.
	You know what watching um, your your favorite yes, queen slay on only fans or on twitch, and then giving her your hard-earned money, thinking that you're going to get something in return.
	How pathetic is that.
	You know what's funny?
	I I made the video about fan service versus fan disservice and I was complaining that um, women in video games and and in comic books right now, they look very androgynous, you know they're.
	They're definitely.
	And every leftist freaked out because that video went viral.
	I had over a hundred thousand clicks on it.
	Then nice um, they were like, oh my god, you Infel, oh Infel, and i'm like Infel.
	Yeah, it's like I wonder how many of you actually have only fans account.
	Yeah yeah, you know, because because I, I guess, like the culture tries to rub away the feminine beauty.
	Because if you look at a statue of uh, Aphrodite or whatever that the Greeks used to score, sure no one expects that you're going to whoop up your pork sword in a museum and start stroking it.
	It's just like the statue is beautiful, it's a nice work of art.
	So when I, that's how I got banned from the British Museum yes like, what i'm talking about is like when you see Black Widow right in in the first Marvel movie, or like like people didn't just whoop it out in the cinema it's, it's just the feminine beauty that kind of gives you some catharsis, you know, like the, the dress up and and the makeup and all of that, you know, makes her look gorgeous and it's an ideal, isn't it?
	Yeah, it's an ideal exactly, and I think like, what the progressives try to do is to move away from that ideal.
	Um and after, like fan disservice, like what do people want?
	Let's do the exact opposite.
	Yeah, they're trying to.
	They're trying to because like essentially, all of this is a kind of a moral argument, like it's all based on the aesthetic preferences of the person watching and they, they're trying to load it.
	So you have to accept that, on a sort of aesthetic and moral level, like you know the, the fat positive movement is as good as the statue of Aphrodite and it's like, sorry just, you can't do that, there's not going to work.
	You can't reason me into thinking that either.
	Because all of this, none of this, is done, because they're acting as if like, the beauty standards we hold are constructed by reason.
	We just decided one day the patriarchy would sit there and go, no, you've got to be this, this and this, whereas we could have just decided the other.
	It's like, no sorry, i'm an animal.
	I'm actually physically an animal and that is part of the.
	The being an animal is this intuitive desires, that's just life.
	Can you show that picture on your screen so people know what i'm talking about?
	Like that picture is from Marvel comics.
	It's, it's official, like it's actually drawn.
	Um, let's see.
	And yeah, like that that, that is how they decided to quote unquote, like subvert, uh the viewer.
	And I thought a second, what the fuck am I looking at?
	Yes, that's an actual comic.
	Yes, that that's how she used to look like.
	Have you got a picture of what she looked like before that?
	Yes, because I remember reading She-hulk when I was young and you know thinking hmm, this is giving me strange feelings.
	I mean, let me show you another one with the Red Hulk.
	Just, I mean, I would consider, and again, I hate using this word, but I would consider what they've done to She-Hulk here, a deliberate destruction of her beauty.
	It's found a service.
	Yeah, but it's on purpose.
	Like, they're like, look, how can we humiliate women?
	We can make them fucking hideous, monstrous.
	I don't think it's that.
	What I think it is.
	I'm not saying that was their intent.
	I'm just saying that's the consequence.
	The one that you sent me where she's attractive, this is a veneration of women.
	This is saying, look, these are the virtues of a woman.
	This is a woman at her peak.
	This is a very attractive woman.
	And then conversely, this is a monstrous parody of a woman screeching, women are talking, destroying things.
	I mean, that is literally feminism just in a picture, isn't it?
	Fucking hell.
	What I think it is, though, and I actually thought a lot before coming up with this, I think is the demoralization of young men.
	Who reads these comic books, right?
	Yeah, they're not very thought-provocative.
	You know, it's not like deep philosophical reading here.
	It's pretty much young men are attracted into this.
	And what they want to do is that they want to convince young men that if they like the second version, then they're incels.
	There's something wrong with them.
	Like, literally, what is wrong with you?
	If you're attracted to, and look at what the She-Hulk is, though, right?
	So she's got a very beautiful woman's face.
	It's manicured.
	She's done her eyebrows, or, you know, these are naturally this way.
	Hair looks great, you know, full lips.
	She looks alert, interested in something.
	And then you look at her body, she's obviously got massive breasts, wide hips, but she's very toned and physically capable looking.
	So this is like, she's in all of the categories that are desirable to be scoring high in.
	She's scoring high in all of them.
	Like the only thing that she's not scoring high here in is being demure.
	Is that okay?
	Yeah.
	No, but like the thing is, if you're a man and you like this, then there's something wrong with you.
	You're an incel.
	It means at any point you can snap.
	Dear incels in the chat who are checking out She-Hulk here, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
	So the correct way to do it is to like the first one.
	Like you need to love the women are talking one.
	That is the correct thing that decent men like.
	Just look at this face.
	One popping out bug eye.
	The mouth like, yeah, like hair wild and everywhere.
	And just smashing stuff going, women are talking.
	I mean, God, aren't they ever.
	But it's very interesting because it makes men feel depressed.
	Oh, yeah.
	The thing is, like, men don't like the type of women that they show.
	And it's like trying to pay the gay away.
	I guess like you're born in a way, right?
	You're gay.
	But like society tries to convince you that you should be straight and they're trying to force something that you're not.
	And honestly, like, I can't imagine how it was like for gay people to go to these conversion camps.
	Like, it must have been hell on earth, right?
	Doubtless, yeah.
	And it's literally the same for me.
	Like, men don't like what they like because of logic and reason.
	They like what they like because the cock has a mind of its own.
	And, you know, if you want to have a conversation with my cock because it's not liking the correct things, then I can arrange for an interview.
	The problem is, like, you're not going to just suddenly snap and like something else.
	But this is what the...
	You can't...
	They're trying to essentially, like, reason you into it, you know?
	Yes.
	But what I find really interesting, I'm just comparing these two pictures.
	And honestly, like, just the intent behind the people who wrote them shines drew them, sorry, shines through in the pictures themselves.
	Like, you don't end up with the first picture unless you want to debase what it is to be a woman.
	Because if you're an artist, even if you're not a great artist, like the second picture that you sent me is a very, very well done picture.
	Whoever's done it is probably a more talented artist than whoever did the first picture.
	He probably got fired, I'm pretty sure.
	Sorry?
	He probably got fired, I'm pretty sure.
	Probably, but obviously more talent is possessed by the person who did the second picture.
	But the intent is clear.
	You know, the person who did the second picture clearly wants to make it seem like women are a good thing.
	You know, this woman is a great thing.
	She's got all of these virtues.
	She's wonderful.
	Whereas this one is someone who's like, women are just awful.
	They're ugly.
	They're violent.
	They're out of control.
	They're ill-kempt.
	They are talking relentlessly.
	They'll tell you to shut up.
	Like, you know, I don't get that impression from She-Hulk, the normal one.
	You know, just seems like a good representation of women to me.
	It's not only that.
	This seems like a misogynist interpretation of a woman.
	If you look at their character, man, like, they're not even heroes.
	So let me tell you a short story from She-Hulk Comics.
	Apparently, she managed to defend a woman that was sexually abused at work.
	So they don't really say why that is, but I guess it's not rape because then it would have been rape.
	I guess like the boss tried to come onto her or something, right?
	So she goes to trial, and the guy, the boss, he gets convicted to two years in prison.
	And because of that, like She-Hulk can't sleep at night because she's like, oh, two years is not enough.
	Like, he needed to get more, obviously.
	Oh, obviously.
	So what she does is, as they're taking him to prison from the court office, she rams herself into the police vehicle.
	It's not clear whether or not she killed the cops driving the vehicle or not, because they seem to be unconscious, but no one cares, right?
	Like they're just props in the background.
	And she grabs the man by his throat and forces him to apologize for what he has done.
	And I'm thinking, like, how is this like the sense of justice?
	I mean, the man clearly was being punished, right?
	He was being sent to prison.
	And She-Hulk, which is supposed to be a hero, smashes the police car, not caring about the lives of the people driving that car, who are completely innocent.
	They're just doing their job.
	And grabs the guy by his throat, forcing him to apologize.
	What morals am I supposed to get from that comic?
	Like, what exactly?
	And what exactly is She-Hulk even fighting in that comic?
	You know, like...
	She's fighting injustice, I guess.
	Well, that's the point, isn't it?
	They're trying to make you love the villains.
	Yeah, I mean, but it's not even a villain.
	It's just like petty.
	I don't know.
	I mean, how else can you describe that?
	I would honestly describe this as an organized, orchestrated, and self-conscious campaign to undermine and destroy those things that we consider virtuous.
	I mean, I guess.
	So there's a YouTuber called The Fourth Age, and he's great.
	And he does comics, and he is constantly banging on, and rightfully so, in my opinion, that a hero is supposed to be a paragon of virtue.
	And if there's one thing I think of when I'm looking at this female She-Hulk, it's not that she is just someone who sits around drinking and smoking and fornicating, right?
	I think that, oh, this is a person who looks like they've done the right thing.
	They've made prudent decisions.
	They're exhibiting virtues.
	They're not going to excess or defect.
	Whereas the new She-Hulk, this is all excess.
	Everything about this new She-Hulk is a vice.
	She's excessively muscular.
	Do you really think she's fornicating?
	Well, a deficiency.
	I think it's probably a severe deficiency in fornication.
	So she's avoiding Aristotle's golden mean, right?
	There's no way she's lifted way too much.
	She hasn't taken any care of herself, and there's no way she's having any relations with anyone else because look at the way that she treats people.
	Women are talking smash.
	This is someone who is not virtuous, is the opposite of virtue.
	And so they're presenting a series of collection of vices and telling us, this is your hero.
	It's like, get fucked.
	That's not my hero.
	And by the way, just so you know, because some people say, well, it's the art style, you know, it's the aesthetics.
	In video gaming development, they use motion capture.
	Like, basically, they bring an actual actress and they capture her facial features and then they make a character based on her form.
	What they often do is that they will take the woman and they will do the motion capture and then modify the character so that the character looks completely ugly and literally nothing like the woman who did the motion capture.
	So the actress looks like a woman and then you look at the character and it usually looks like something that's raunched.
	Now I'll give you an example of what I'm saying.
	Someone in the chat made a really great point.
	The people who drew this she-hulk where she's like a monster, they unironically will call you an incel.
	That's amazing, isn't it?
	That's amazing.
	Yeah, it's to demoralize men.
	Basically, if you disagree with that art style, there's something wrong with you.
	It's exactly like conservatives, like, you know, the Bush era, they would view gay people.
	It's like it's something that you're pathological.
	There's something wrong with you.
	You need to get help.
	And in fact, they actually say this to you.
	They will say it on Prince.
	It's like, you need to get help because you don't like their art.
	You don't appreciate what they consider to be a strong woman.
	Yeah.
	But right, it's nearly 11 o'clock, man, and I've got work tomorrow.
	So I'm going to head off.
	But thanks for jumping on afterwards.
	It was really fun.
	I love the debate with Destiny.
	And I have to say, Destiny made some great points as well.
	Was it even a debate?
	I think it was just a very reasonable conversation.
	Yes.
	Right.
	Thanks for joining this chat.
	I hope you've had fun.
	And I'll see you on the podcast tomorrow.
	Bye, everyone.
	See if we can.
	Women are talking.
	It's so evil, isn't it?

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