Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin - Poor Old Lindsay Ellis

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Aug. 7, 2021 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin

01:13:33

Poor Old Lindsay Ellis

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	Am I live?
	I might be live.
	I'll find out in a minute.
	I think I'm live.
	Oh my god, it's happening.
	See, I'm enjoying the fact that I can start this before YouTube tells everyone that I'm live.
	And so when they come on, it's not waiting for something.
	I'm already here.
	Because I'm a professional, you see, folks.
	Let me just get a few things in the back end sorted.
	There we go.
	Right, okay.
	Okay.
	Good afternoon.
	How are you all doing?
	See, I could have spent my afternoon playing video games because it's Saturday afternoon.
	I've taken the kids out.
	I've looked after them all morning.
	And I've got a couple of hours free.
	And I could be chilling out and just watching TV.
	Oh, no, no, watching TV.
	I don't watch TV.
	But watching stuff on YouTube and playing some video games.
	But instead, I thought I'd show some support and sympathy for my personal favourite YouTuber, Lindsay Ellis, because things are getting her down because she was recently cancelled.
	And she went on some channel I'd never heard of, actually.
	What was it called?
	It's called The Financial Diet.
	It's got 880,000 subscribers, but they get like 30,000 views of video.
	And she had a conversation with some woman who I've never heard of.
	And they dug walking over Lindsay Ellis.
	Oh, you're so cruel.
	How could you?
	How could you say that, chat?
	But I don't mind Lindsay Ellis, you know.
	I don't think she's actually a terrible person.
	And there's a part of me that has quite a lot of sympathy for her because she has managed to cultivate for herself possibly the most toxic community on the internet.
	Online Twitter leftists.
	Why anyone would want that to be their community, I have no idea.
	But she genuinely seems afraid of her own community.
	And that seems like a horrible position to be trapped in because this is her job.
	In the course of this interview, she talks about how she employs seven people.
	She's a small business owner.
	And obviously this, I guess, is the equivalent to being like a landlord, really, isn't it?
	And if you're a lefty, that can't be good.
	Not a good look.
	But anyway, I'm in relatively the same position as her because I am a small business owner too, doing media content creation.
	And so I have a bunch of employees.
	She has a bunch of employees.
	And it seems that we're in a relatively similar position, just mirror images on opposite sides of the pitch, as it were.
	And so I'm not, you know, I'm not unfavorably disposed towards Lindsay.
	There are content creators out there that I think are genuinely dishonest and mendacious, but I don't actually think Lindsay is one of them.
	I think that she is well-meaning but has found herself trapped within a paradigm she doesn't really understand and definitely can't escape on her own.
	And so I'm wondering if maybe I can help.
	Maybe I can present a few ideas and options and thoughts on the things that are pressing in all around her and excuse the Joker meme for a thumbnail.
	I just couldn't think of anything to use for this one.
	Anyway, should we catch up, chaps?
	How are you all doing, by the way?
	I haven't...
	I haven't been able to stream for a while here, have I?
	Jim Kovich, I'm racist.
	Oh, good God.
	Thanks, Jim.
	But yes, student of history, yes, it's very much the sort of Damocles that's sitting above Lindsay Ellis' head.
	And the thing is, it keeps falling on her.
	But the thing is, she keeps profiting from this.
	And so I think it's maybe worth pointing this out.
	There's a distinct strain of, I don't want to be held accountable for the things that I've done and the community I've created.
	And I think you probably should be.
	I think if anyone's going to be held accountable, it should be those people who keep talking about accountability, shouldn't it?
	But yeah, let me make sure I've got everything sorted out.
	I actually haven't tested the sound, so let's hope.
	Let me check that beforehand so I don't boomer it in advance.
	How about that?
	There we go.
	That should be fine.
	I'm sure it'll be fine.
	But by the way, you're all about to get dehumanized here.
	What was her thought crime?
	Being an SJW, obviously.
	But then my thought crime is not being an SJW from her perspective.
	But you're all going to get dehumanized during this.
	You're going to be called Goblins.
	So trigger warning.
	You're all.
	I love that she just openly dehumanizes.
	But anyway, let's have a listen to what they have to say.
	I guess I'm best known right now for having been the top trend worldwide twice in the space of a month for, I don't know, how would you describe it?
	Accusations of racism.
	You know, it's really awkward.
	We're just like, where there's smoke, there's fire, huh?
	Wow.
	What's it like, Lindsay?
	Never been on the receiving end of that.
	Must be rough.
	Right.
	So you were, as you're sort of tepidly describing it, cancelled in the parlance this year.
	Can you tell us what happened?
	She wasn't cancelled.
	Being cancelled is when there are actually consequences to the things that have happened rather than just a backlash on Twitter or blowback or whatever you want to call it.
	Like when corporations and society at large start just taking things away from you because you are you is when you're being cancelled.
	Having an angry Twitter mob send nasty messages to you and call you names, that's not being cancelled.
	But they really wish they were being cancelled because then they'd have a genuine claim to victimhood.
	They obviously don't.
	They're part of the hegemonic structure that controls the internet and so will never be cancelled.
	No leftists are ever really cancelled.
	And anyone who falls afoul of the algorithms because they happen to be inaccurate, the algorithms cast their dragnet, they draw in all of those wrong thinkers.
	And if the occasional lefty is included in that, well, they take to Twitter and complain to Team YouTube on Twitter.
	And then they get boom, instantly restated because they're on the right side of the argument as far as Team YouTube are concerned.
	Well, I did make a video on it.
	For those of you who haven't seen it, it's called Max Scoff.
	It's like the second most recent video on my channel.
	But basically, I, you know.
	Someone's asking me to move the selfie cam.
	No.
	You don't really want to see the other woman.
	You know, since I'm primarily known as a film.
	A lot of times I would just kind of pop off opinions of whatever I had just seen.
	And basically, I wouldn't even say like two unpopular opinions in a row.
	One, but like, neither I would particularly walk back.
	One was just about soul and how I thought it was weirdly pro-lifey.
	And a lot of people started to get agitated about that.
	Like, oh, so you just don't like movies starring people of color.
	And I'm like, um.
	They got you there dead to rights, Lindsay Ellis.
	Just admit it.
	You're a racist.
	You hate people with people of color.
	It's not that you're just pro-abortion.
	It's that you hate people of color.
	That's all right.
	Why not just deny it?
	If it's not true, just deny it.
	Just tell them they're ridiculous.
	Tell them this allegation is obviously absurd.
	Such a strange thing to be like, oh, I can't really push back on that.
	If you're not a racist, you're free to say you're not a racist, Lindsay.
	Don't know why that's controversial.
	Well, I do actually, but then.
	All right.
	And then it was the one I really got in trouble for was about Raya and the Last Dragon, a movie that nobody saw, including the people who started the.
	For the people in the chat pointing out the juxtaposition here, I actually have way better legs than this woman, so I'm actually offended that you're saying that I have nice legs because my legs are way better than hers.
	I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a bitch about it, but it's just true.
	Yeah, Dog Pile, which, you know, maybe they didn't intend for that to happen, but that was what happened.
	And I said something to the tune of it was like half of all YA that had been published in the last five years.
	And obviously that was hyperbole, but it was also kind of true.
	Like, most of the YA fantasy I've read in the last five years is very obviously influenced by Avatar the Last Air Vendor.
	And so the narrative became like, oh, since they're both Asian-inspired, you're implying that all Asian-inspired things are the same genre.
	I did exactly what you're not supposed to do because this basically happened while I was.
	Right, just to be clear, right?
	This was an absolute nothing burger.
	You know, if I can steal culturally appropriate Van Jones's Americanism, there was absolutely nothing here.
	She had just made a comment that some, I don't know, whatever, whatever weeb shit that it was, was vaguely like Avatar the Last Airbender, because like a lot of animated adventure series seem to be wanting to copy Avatar the Last Airbender because Avatar the Last Airbender was awesome and everything else is crap.
	So it's not a surprise.
	And so this became somehow a form of racism that she's anti-Japanese or something, which, I mean, you know, you've really got to be far down the left-wing rabbit hole to be able to spin a racism narrative out of that and not that's just an obvious piece of film criticism or you know whatever the genre is.
	So there was actually nothing here.
	So the fact that she even has to defend herself from these allegations just goes to show you how absurd the community on Twitter with which she associates is.
	But look at her demeanor.
	Look at the way she talks.
	Look at how afraid she seems.
	I mean, she genuinely does not seem to have a sort of peaceful equilibrium about her.
	She seems to be on edge, nervous, like she's being attacked from all sides.
	Now, you might remember that this did happen to her on Twitter when she shut down her own Twitter account because apparently the people that follow her on Twitter are just awful.
	Just awful in every single way.
	But this is the community she's courted, and now this is the position she's found herself in.
	And I've got to say, you know, maybe you do get what you deserve, don't you?
	You know, maybe, maybe if you caught this, you get this.
	And who gets to complain that that's the case?
	Because it's the future you chose, isn't it?
	But I'm sympathetic.
	I don't think that she should be harassed on Twitter by her own community.
	I don't think she should be harassed anywhere by anyone.
	And, you know, like I said, I don't think she's a bad person or anything.
	I think she's just fallen into a position she can't escape from.
	I was asleep and I woke up and saw people were like, I can't believe you said this.
	And I'm like, even now, I have a really hard time getting into the headspace where that interpretation made sense.
	Because it was absurd.
	Just really, really absurd.
	So I did exactly what you're not supposed to do and got defensive and tried to explain myself, which you should never, ever, ever do.
	Ah, that's right.
	Yeah.
	Never try to actually argue your own point on Twitter because, of course, that's not what it's about.
	It's not about saying, listen, you know, this was what I was thinking.
	This was my rationale.
	This was my reasoning.
	This is the conclusion I came to.
	And that's why I said what I said.
	Because nobody on Twitter is actually interested in that being the case.
	What they're interested in is a pound of your flesh.
	They're interested in raking you over the coals publicly, waving the shame bell, dinging, dinging.
	You know, that's what they're interested in.
	They are not interested in your genuine repentance.
	They're interested in hurting your mental well-being.
	It's actually a predatory community on Twitter, and she knows it.
	And look at her.
	She's got the sort of mannerisms and responses of a deer.
	She looks like she's nervous and she's trying to stay away from the predators, even though she can't understand what she could have done differently.
	And, well, it kind of snowballed from there.
	And then I was just honestly really furious because it wasn't, because a lot of people would say that it's like, oh, it's just Twitter Puritans who need to feel powerful.
	And that was absolutely not true.
	Like, there were some blue check marks that got in on it.
	People I've actually worked with.
	Imagine thinking that the blue check marks aren't like the lieutenants of the army of the Twitter Puritans.
	Like, oh, well, they were blue check marks.
	Therefore, they weren't a part.
	No, of course they were.
	You know, Twitter has created a kind of groupthink where the feedback loop of being this kind of puritanical leftist on Twitter, as if the blue check marks are exempt from that.
	Everyone appears to be receptive to this on Twitter.
	So, embarrassing.
	Like, just basically kind of was just like, ooh, you know, this seems fun.
	Even though, like, almost nobody who had joined in on this conversation was familiar with the media in question.
	And that goes to show that this is not good faith criticism.
	So you shouldn't take it from them.
	They are trying to bully you.
	And if there's one thing I can't stand, Lindsay, it's a bully.
	And even people who dislike me and who I personally disagree with in many ways and think I'm making the world a worse place, I will come to their defense as I am doing now because I don't think that people should be bullied because they have an opinion that a bunch of actual psychopaths on Twitter don't like.
	Like if I still feel, if I still sound defensive about it, it's because I am.
	Because I've seen so many people be like, well, why didn't you address the valid criticism?
	And I'm like, I don't know what to tell you, man.
	I disagree that it's valid.
	I just don't think it's valid, so I'm not going to address it.
	But notice how look at her posture of body language.
	Her hand.
	She's wringing her hands here.
	She's so nervous about saying this in public.
	It's not valid criticism.
	She wasn't being a racist.
	End of story.
	I don't know why that conversation has to go any further, but it's, of course, because of the community that she's in and the genuine psychopathy that it encourages because of the medium it is conducted across and the standards to which it sets itself.
	It's this, it's essentially left-wing politics now in sectionality is essentially a perpetual revolution.
	There will never be an end to it because the contradictions are infinite and can never be resolved.
	And so it just roils around and she's just trapped in this horrible sort of whirlwind cycle.
	And look at her body language.
	Look at her.
	She looks terrified.
	She looks like she's been genuinely terrorized by these people.
	I think that's horrible.
	I think that's cruel.
	I don't think she deserves this.
	I don't think anyone deserves this.
	Me being nice is not naming names, which, you know, was sort of like even then, you know, was called a bully for, you know, even alluding to people or using tweets that, you know, people made about me while still blocking out their names.
	But yeah, so.
	And they'll call her a bully over it.
	As if she's the bully here.
	I mean, look at her.
	Look at her face.
	She looks sad.
	She looks genuinely sad that this is happening.
	Basically, I deleted my Twitter account, and that was what made me trend.
	It wasn't the original tweet.
	It was me deleting my Twitter account.
	Right, because it was like they pushed her off.
	Yeah, and so the narrative became I was chased off of Twitter.
	And I'm just sort of like, well, obviously it was my choice to delete my Twitter account.
	But I can't say there's no truth to that.
	There we go.
	Her own community, the community of Twitter leftists, chased her off Twitter, as said by Lindsay Ellis.
	So I'm just going to change this a little bit.
	Not that I didn't enjoy having a very, very feminine pair of legs or anything, but not happy with the fact that you can see the bar at the bottom.
	I know that sounds like a silly complaint, but it's my silly complaint, and I'm going to make it.
	There we go.
	Anyway, so yes, she's bullied off Twitter by her own audience and the progressive, very intersectional community on there.
	Not very good advertising to join the left, is it?
	You know, where I'm just like, I felt like there were so many people that were just waiting for the excuse to like, you know, topple me.
	And like, again, there.
	There we go.
	That's exactly right.
	There are.
	There are loads and loads of people on Twitter who are waiting for the excuse merely to topple her in order to inflict psychological harm on her.
	That's what this is about.
	She's right.
	The criticism wasn't valid.
	They are just there to hurt her.
	And honestly, the best thing I think that anyone can do is basically delete their Twitter accounts at this point.
	Leave it alone.
	Honestly, I'm looking back.
	I was banned in what, 2017, 2018, something like that.
	And I'm just looking at thinking, oh my God, I didn't even realize how upsetting Twitter was when I was on it because it's like an addictive drug.
	You don't realize how much of a fight mode that you're in when you go on there.
	But and if you don't have the fight, I mean, I enjoy that.
	So that was, for me, I found that fun.
	But you didn't, you realize that, like, after a company is not using Twitter, you're like, wow, the world's so tranquil.
	Like, you know, this, well, it was not sunny today, but, you know, the birds are still singing in the trees, the crickets chirping in the grass, and there are people mad online, and I just don't care.
	You know, and Lindsay, I think she's actually arrived at this point now.
	There is some truth to that.
	Like, absolutely, people like gleefully joined in, or else there wouldn't have been this like dossier of bad problematic takes I've made over the last 13 years, just ready and waiting to go, which was also another thing that happened because most people that saw the tweet were just like, I don't understand.
	Like, why is this such a big deal?
	And so then people, in order to kind of justify this reaction, be like, ah, no, but here's the dossier of every iffy thing she has said in the last 13 years.
	Ah, there we go.
	Yes.
	The Twitter, I guess we'll call it the smear machine.
	That's what they do.
	They, oh, you said this five years ago.
	It's like, yeah, okay.
	Well, I disagree with it because it's not progressive.
	Okay.
	Cry harder.
	That's what you need to say, Lindsay.
	Again, look at her face.
	Look at her expression.
	This is something she has to deal with.
	And her infractions are going to be so minor in the realm of progressive politics, really, that, you know, like this whole thing was nothing.
	But because she adheres to these moral standards and this moral worldview, they look at her as a prime juicy target.
	She can be easily attacked because fundamentally she agrees with their premises, whereas I don't.
	And so, and other people like me, I suppose we'll just call ourselves conservatives, do not agree with this.
	And so don't have to worry and pull expressions like that, unfortunately, for her.
	And so, yeah, I don't know.
	It's just sort of like, on the one hand, yeah, it is absolutely true that it was my decision.
	But on the other hand, it's like you can only take so much before you're just like, I can't do this anymore.
	I can't be people's scapegoat for like the things they like the unjustness of the world, you know?
	So just to be clear, right?
	I use Getter, Gab, Minds, and Telegram, and none of those things happen to me on those platforms.
	And Facebook as well, obviously, but like none of those things happen to me on those platforms.
	It's just for your information, Lindsay.
	There are options that aren't Twitter, and you can use them if you want.
	You know what's interesting about this is that I talked to a couple people before I interviewed you, including people who work in our own company.
	But I would say that basically none of our employees are very online.
	Like they work online, but they're very like not in answering.
	It's very hard to explain.
	Right.
	And it's every single person that I talk to about this.
	Like I even told my Spanish tutor about it and she was like, okay, like this does not make sense.
	And I think what's so incredible about it to me is not so much what you were taken to task over, because I do think we've seen very, very spurious, inciting incidents.
	But I do think it's a total flattening of what is this person's intent?
	What does the totality of their work point toward?
	Obviously, I think most people who are familiar with you are familiar with you because of your film criticism, which is usually, if anything, fairly politically neutral.
	But anyone who's a little bit more familiar with you.
	Oh, man, by YouTube standards, I am hard left.
	It's true, like a Maoist.
	And by like a regular person who doesn't use the internet standards, you are literally Stalin.
	So, you know, remember that everything is about perspective and relativity.
	But I like the way they're saying this.
	Like, wow, it's weird that this only seems to happen with online Twitter leftists.
	Why is that?
	Because it seems that this has created a cult atmosphere because all of the conservatives have been slowly but surely banned over the years from Twitter.
	And now you're trapped in this left-wing echo chamber where the absolutely insane radicals are looking at you, a moderately insane radical, and going, You are a right-winger.
	You are basically impure.
	You're the problem.
	It's all that's in their faces.
	It's all that's in their faces.
	They're not seeing any of the right wings anymore.
	So the ayah is focused like a laser on progressive talking heads.
	Again, I refer you back to the Joker thumbnail of this.
	But I think a more casual viewer would be like, oh, I saw her video about like Jurassic Park.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	But I do think anyone with like.
	Oh, yeah, good point, chat.
	Haha, Mao Ibism is funny.
	Yeah, I mean, in her defense, she was using Mao as an example of something that was bad.
	So, you know, in her defense, she is using it as an example of something that isn't aspirational.
	Like, enough familiarity about you to have been part of that discourse is clearly aware of the fact that when it comes to economic and social policies and things of that nature, you're clearly a long, well-established advocate for progressive causes.
	I saw so many people that had the most bizarre takes that were just like, she said this one thing or used this one tone like five years ago, and I knew it.
	Basically, it was all like they're basically accusing her of being a right-winger.
	I love it.
	I love that she is now a right-winger.
	The Overton window on Twitter is just going so far to the left.
	And this is the culture that you're in.
	How does it feel?
	You know, just sort of like, I always knew this was going to happen.
	I remember someone called me like wrote film school anodyne live journal film criticism.
	Is that inaccurate, though?
	Oh my gosh.
	One that just basically was mad about like the follower count and how I should know better.
	I mean, to me, it was just like illustrative about how performative a lot of these like cancelings are.
	Because I'm like, do you actually believe this?
	Or are you just doing this for dunk points?
	Because you think that this is a safe bet that I'm just going to remain unpopular on Twitter forever?
	You know, because there's just something incredibly like, you don't actually care, but you do want some clout for being on the right side of whatever the issue is of the day.
	Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
	You've hit the nail on the head and you made this community.
	You were a part of it.
	All of you progressive talking heads that are feeling the wrath of the Twitter mob now.
	Well, what do you think it was like for us?
	When I say us, I mean the non-progressives who had previously felt the wrath of your Twitter mob and now it's come back to you.
	Where did you think it was going to go?
	Did you think they would just can I help you, San?
	No, come on, I told you, you've got to stay in cycling and do a bit of work.
	Can you say hello to everyone?
	Hi.
	But, all right, you go back inside, okay?
	Come on.
	Come on.
	I'll be out in a bit.
	Come on.
	Go on.
	Make sure you close the door.
	Thank you.
	Sorry about that.
	What was I saying?
	Oh, yeah.
	Did you think they were going to harass and hound your enemies and then just, you know, be like, right, okay, well, that's that job done.
	Now we're going to go back to picking daisies and singing nice happy songs and everything will be hunky-dory.
	Did you interact with any of those people like face-to-face and absolutely M2DM?
	No.
	No, fuck them.
	Right.
	Yeah, because I feel like that.
	Good.
	That's right.
	Exactly.
	Fuck them.
	Because they're just there to bully you.
	They're just there to harass you.
	And this is your audience, Lindsay.
	Like, especially if it's someone that you worked with or you knew in a real capacity, like, I feel like that would be pretty hard to maintain in a one-on-one conversation.
	No, no.
	I'm just.
	I'm just like, honestly, because I see some people that like try to, you know, silverlining it.
	But I've like, not even me.
	I've seen this happen so many times.
	A lot of times too, like, very close friends.
	And I'm just like, this whole process has just made me so cynical.
	How is it your community keeps bullying you and your friends?
	And you've just been like, well, I guess we've just got to go with it because they're being very progressive.
	And obviously, I'm not as progressive as them.
	Is there not something wrong with left-wing politics when this becomes the norm?
	When this, you can just list a bunch of progressive creators that their own communities are harassing them over for impurity.
	Like, is that not a problem?
	Do you think that's a good advertisement for the left?
	Like, I don't know about you.
	I mean, like, I guess what I'll call just the conservative community, the right-wing community.
	I don't see this happening.
	I don't see content creators being bullied to mental illness by their own audiences.
	Now, maybe it's happening and I'm just not aware of it.
	It's just it's not happening to any of my friends.
	And so when you can say, well, all of my friends have been harassed by their own audiences on Twitter, I can't say that about any of mine.
	And that strikes me as being quite an important point, as we will get to as we go further into this.
	You'll see why I'm even doing this stream.
	Like, I just, like, whenever I see someone on Twitter say anything, I just assume, like, okay, this is some sort of performance.
	You're just doing this for clout.
	You don't actually believe anything.
	And that could just be written on the gravestone of every single progressive.
	You're just doing this for clout.
	This is all performance.
	You don't actually believe anything.
	That's what that is.
	Like, it has just completely, I have, like, no faith in like this idea of like accountability anymore.
	Well, but that's, I mean.
	That's because you didn't use it in the first place.
	It was bullying.
	It was harassment.
	It was a way of feeling good at someone else's expense that you were participating in and your community was participating in.
	I think part of the issue is that when it's at scale, all intention is flattened and all punishment is sort of equalized.
	Even if you in your mind perceive yourself as engaging in a measured way, if there are a million people engaging at once, that can't be perceived as measured.
	I think one thing that always worries me about this is I do feel that often the targets of these kinds of phenomena are the people who are likely to in some way be most receptive to it.
	You mentioned the fact that you engaged, which is the thing you should never do, and I think that's probably true.
	But I also think that the reason why it can be so much more effective to dogpile people who ostensibly probably share a lot of your values and a lot of your political beliefs is because they are going to, to some extent, feel beholden to it.
	Yes.
	So the progressive community dogpiles and harasses because they know that the people they're dogpiling and harassing will be receptive to it.
	Yes, that's very good, unnamed leopard print woman.
	Very good.
	That's exactly what's happening.
	That's exactly what your community is like.
	You could, if you were so inclined, describe this as deeply toxic.
	Not that I tend to use that word, but I think that you know what I mean, and I think that it's accurate.
	So yes, that's a good description of your online progressive community.
	It's very, very gross.
	Do carry on.
	They're going to be affected by it.
	Whereas like fucking Tom Cotton, like that monster's out there like making people's lives miserably worse every day.
	Right.
	And they care less.
	Like they thrive off of it.
	I think even Shapiro, I think he has like a humiliation fetish.
	I think he actually gets off on every Trademan has a lot of weird fetishes.
	See, look, you're literally, you are having this done to you on a daily basis.
	It is affecting your emotional well-being.
	And then you're like, yeah, we should humiliate Ben Shapiro.
	Now, I'm not like the world's biggest fan of Ben Shapiro or anything, especially in the post-Trump era.
	I liked him talking about Trump.
	I'm not that bothered about him talking about things other than Trump.
	And it's because he wasn't like a big Trump fan is why I liked him talking about Trump.
	But the fact that you are like, okay, well, look, I'm being ritually humiliated by my own audience on Twitter.
	I wish they'd go back to ritually humiliating Ben Shapiro because that makes me happy.
	It makes me happy when they're humiliating Ben Shapiro, making up false quotes about him, making up all these stupid stories about him.
	All of these things.
	This ritual humiliation.
	I wish it was aimed at someone I didn't like because then I could laugh at them.
	But then it's all turned on me and oh, woe is me, woe is me.
	I'm the victim.
	You're the ones who are responsible for encouraging this.
	You're doing it right now.
	You're encouraging the very bullying that will come back to you right this second.
	It's really annoying to watch, frankly.
	I think he loves it.
	Like he sees himself trend people dunking on him.
	He's like, oh, yes.
	Yeah.
	Oh, why couldn't we just say that about Lindsay Ellis?
	Why couldn't we say that about you?
	Oh, you secretly love it.
	You secretly love it, which is why you won't admit that you were a racist, Lindsay.
	We could easily say that about you.
	Honestly, it's such a childish way of looking at the world.
	loves it but how do you the laughter of the damn there isn't it He loves it.
	He loves it.
	No one loves it.
	No one loves being ritually humiliated on Twitter, as you should well know by this point.
	To reconcile having a cynicism about it, which I think I would probably share if I were in your position, with not wanting to become a poster child for the people who on their end cynically want to dismiss all criticism as being just a part of a mob.
	I don't know.
	I don't honestly think that should be my responsibility.
	I guess, like, you know, which is sort of like if you're trying to balance optics and how your narrative will be weaponized against the left, which absolutely happened.
	And it happens right now because your narrative on all of these things is, I wish it was none of our fault and it was all the other side's fault.
	But unfortunately, the other side doesn't seem to be responsible for this at all.
	And it seems to be all our fault.
	And then when we can actually point the hate mob at someone on the other side, we can go, ha ha, ha, ha, ha, you deserve this.
	And then once they're gone and deplatformed or whatever, they come back and now you're surrounded by the same harassers that you were so laughing at when they were going after your enemies.
	Sorry, Lindsay, go on.
	You know, yeah, old friend of the family, Sargon.
	Batman is.
	Hey, sweetheart.
	How you doing?
	I thought I'd step up in your defense, you know, because we're such good buddies and all that.
	Still alive.
	I love the way that this, nobody's like, that man's still alive.
	Do you think people actually get like shots when they get banned from Twitter?
	Do you think it's actually like a death sentence?
	Yes, all of the people that you ban are actually still alive, but keep going.
	Because we always know every time he does a podcast episode about me, his little goblins flood my comment section and my moderator has to like.
	That's right.
	That's you, goblins, in the chat.
	Now, I don't want you goblins going over and commenting on Lindsay Ellis' videos or anything like that.
	And I really don't, right?
	Because frankly, I do think she gets enough harassment from her own community.
	I don't think anyone needs that.
	But also because she sees you as subhumans, right?
	I mean, if I were to describe any group of people as goblins, I think, I mean, I'd probably get deplatformed for being a racist or something.
	But this would also be a horrible thing to do, right?
	Don't describe your fellow human beings as goblins.
	Lindsay Ellis can do it because she has the right progressive opinions.
	But I mean, to be honest with you, look at the toll it's taking on her.
	Like, I would rather not have those opinions and not refer to my fellow man as subhumans, if that's okay.
	You know, I think that's morally the right thing to do.
	But don't start whirring in the chat.
	No, no, no, no.
	Come on.
	Come on.
	We're not going to prove her point by acting like goblins.
	No, no, no.
	We are decent and honorable gentlemen here.
	Thank you very much.
	Although the chat is full of goblins rise up.
	Look, Lindsay, all I'm saying is you create a rod for your own back sometimes.
	You shouldn't have shouldn't have used a cool sounding thing.
	You should have called them something else.
	And like, sometimes they go into my Goodreads.
	It's like a mess.
	But like they, you know, basically there was this sort of narrative.
	And I love the way that this is framed.
	Oh, my, my little goblins go and harass.
	All right, yeah.
	Do your goblins go and harass anyone, Lindsay?
	Like Ben Shapiro?
	Or you?
	You know, do you think it's just one-sided?
	Is it just like people who watch me that go and like send you comments on the internet?
	Or is it people from your own side?
	Like my audience don't actually seem to be the major problem here.
	You seem to actually treat these as kind of my audience is kind of like, oh, look, a small nuisance.
	Probably harking back to the leopard print woman's point that, you know, they know that you are going to be receptive to their arguments and so they're a lot more vicious with you.
	Stop being goblins, chat.
	Come on.
	Narrative on right-wing Twitter that was like, she deserves right-wing Twitter, honestly.
	Like there's such a thing left.
	His little goblins flood my comments section and my moderator has to like.
	Oh god.
	Not the gods.
	Like sometimes they go into my Goodreads.
	It's like a mess.
	But like they, you know, basically there was this sort of narrative on right-wing Twitter that was like, she deserves this because this is the crowd that she catered to and this is what they always do and they always eat their own.
	And that's true, isn't it, Lindsay?
	How can you say that that's not true?
	How many of your friends have been harassed by your audience and their own audience?
	I imagine there's a great deal of crossover between these audiences.
	How could you possibly say that's not true?
	But on right-wing Twitter, on right-wing YouTube, right-wing the internet, I don't see that happening.
	I don't see any of my friends complaining to me that they're being harassed by their own audiences.
	So how is it that this is something you can point to other people and be like, well, it's someone else's fault somehow?
	How is it that you can't say you don't deserve this?
	You get what you deserve, don't you?
	And I'm sort of like, I personally, you know, you're free to disagree, but I don't feel like I should have to like anticipate that or to tailor my statement around how Sargon is going to frame it.
	But they all think that you should because I am going to frame it because I'm making good points.
	That's your problem.
	Fundamentally, I am speaking to an essential aspect of reality here.
	It is something that is true.
	And of course, Lindsay's like, well, look, I want to be able to say things that then aren't necessarily connected directly to, I guess, what would call the culture war.
	But the thing is, what we're talking about is the culture of the left.
	This is how they behave.
	And it's like, okay, well, I'm not surprised that people on your own side are saying, well, look, you know, Sargon's going to look at this and be like, well, this proves his point.
	And he's going to show all of the sort of 100,000 or so people that will watch this stream and be like, look, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
	These people are cancerous.
	They're horrible.
	And it's because of their politics.
	As Leopard Print girlie here said, you know, they're vulnerable to it because they know they agree with these points in essence.
	And so, yes, this is something that she actually kind of has to worry about.
	Because otherwise, it's going to be like, hang on, everyone's like, well, is he actually right that left-wing politics is making us all cancerous human beings?
	They're destroying the emotional well-being of the content creators we like to watch.
	And the answer, of course, is yes.
	I mean, if her body language is anything to go by, the answer is absolutely yes.
	Right.
	No, sir.
	And so, and I think I was like, because I addressed this in my video, too, is like there's a big problem where people in left-leaning and progressive spaces do not admit that, yes, these systems absolutely are abused all the time.
	I'd like to just doff my hat to Lindsay for proving my point once again.
	Thank you.
	I don't think it's for what it's worth your responsibility to control or even really like invest in how your narrative is going to be used.
	Yeah.
	However, when you see it being used in a certain way, what do you feel about that?
	Nothing.
	I turn off.
	You just, I can't.
	I actually didn't mean to laugh so hard at that, but like, I love, that's such a brilliant response, right?
	What, what?
	What do you think when your point is Sargon's point is essentially validated by the things that your community is doing?
	It's like nothing, I just turn off.
	Because if I think about it, then I might have to be like, Yeah, my community is cancerous.
	And I don't want to have to do that because, man, that's a that makes me think that maybe I've invested the last, what, 10 or 13 years or whatever of her internet life online in the wrong cause.
	And that's a difficult thing to come back from.
	I mean, she's invested a lot of herself into what she does.
	And so, how do you just change on a dime?
	It's just easy to like, you know, switch that part of my brain off.
	Sure, that was easy.
	Thank God I can do that, right?
	Now I don't have to think about it.
	No, I mean, just like, I think another thing people don't realize about like influencers or public figures of any stripe is like you have, I believe, spoons is the metaphor right now.
	Spoons.
	And I have none left.
	You know, I just, you know, I basically have like had to just completely detach from most things.
	And, you know, because I'm, I just don't engage.
	I just kind of like, well, that happened.
	Moving on.
	How cancerous must her community be if she basically can't really go on the internet?
	I mean, I don't spend that much time on the internet these days, actually, but not because my community is cancerous, but just because I'm busy reading books and I'm about just over halfway through this critical race theory Bible.
	It's called Critical Race Theory, The Key Writings That Form the Movement.
	It's like 500 pages long, and it's a huge, thick thing.
	I'm about halfway through it, and it just takes all my time to just read all this crap.
	But it is necessary, and you'll appreciate that I have by the end of it because unironically, the essay in it that it's a collection of essays.
	The essay in it I'm currently reading is arguing that integration is black genocide.
	It's like, oh, really?
	Literally those words.
	Integration is black genocide.
	It's like, right.
	And that's why we should have segregated schools, according to the critical race theorist, Derek Bell.
	It's like, hmm, hmm, hmm.
	I disagree.
	I don't think that the blacks and the whites should be kept separate by government fiat.
	You know, I just don't agree with that.
	But anyway, that's me going on a tangent.
	This is why I don't spend that much time on the internet these days.
	But I spend quite a lot of time on Facebook actually these days because I'm in a bunch of fun groups of essentially you guys probably.
	I see a lot of people recognizing me in these groups and they're always like, oh, hey, man, I'm, you know, really nice to see you.
	And here's some memes, which is always fun.
	So if you see me posting in a group on Facebook, you might well find me in a 40k group or something like that.
	Feel free to send me some good memes, man.
	I'm always down with some good memes.
	But anyway, we get back to Lindsay Ellis being bullied and chased off the internet by her own community.
	And then being annoyed that the progressives are like, well, look, when you tell people you're being bullied, that validates Sargon's arguments.
	And maybe you want to shut up for the sake of diversity, which is unironically what's happening here.
	Changed the kind of content you want to produce.
	Has it affected the content I?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Because it's just like, whenever something like this happens, it just completely destroys the trust you have with your audience.
	Sure.
	And how can you make content for people that you're kind of afraid of, right?
	She's afraid of her own audience.
	She's just admitted.
	She is afraid of her own audience.
	This is progressive politics for you.
	Afraid of her own audience.
	What sort of horrible people must they be?
	What sort of absolutely terrible shitheel human beings must she have attracted with her political persuasion?
	Just saying.
	Just saying.
	I think this is a really important point to note.
	And this is important, but we'll get onto why it's important in a bit because she covers this again.
	Right.
	To tailor things in like a certain way and make sure that like, you know, you're whatever you say isn't going to be taken out of con yeah, someone in chat, she's afraid of her goblin army.
	That's exactly it.
	She is afraid of the army of goblins of her own goblins that she has created.
	But the thing is, I'm just sat here thinking, I don't think of my audience as an army of goblins at all.
	I'm thinking in terms of like Lord of the Rings.
	You're the one who controls the goblin army.
	I'm not the one who lives in Mordor.
	You know, I live in the Shire.
	Thank you very much.
	And everyone that I know.
	See, I mean, I'm just looking at the chat now.
	It's just memes.
	Just memes, memes, memes.
	You know, all these funny, friendly, you know, banterous comments.
	And I'm thinking, okay, well, I don't film that I'm surrounded by the army of the Uruk High or anything.
	But anyway, let's get back on with it, Men of the West.
	Context or, you know, interpreted in the least, you know, charitable possible way.
	Daniel, I said.
	No, you have to go and ask mummy.
	Come on, I'm busy.
	She's in bed.
	Yeah, well, then you're going to have to go wake her up, then, won't you?
	Or go play with your toys or something.
	No.
	Well, then go play with your toys or something, Grublop.
	I told you.
	Come on.
	Sorry about that, folks.
	You have to be firm.
	You have to be firm.
	It just makes it impossible to do anything.
	Because you're not thinking in terms of making a point.
	You're thinking in terms of covering your own ass.
	That's it.
	She's not thinking in terms of how can I make a good point about the thing I want to talk about.
	She's thinking in terms of how can I speak in a way that won't be like a death sentence from my own audience.
	Just saying, glad that's not my life.
	And that's not a way to, you know, be creative.
	It just makes it impossible.
	Well, it really makes me feel at the time so upset because, you know, the exposure that we've had, the extent to which we've worked together has been fairly limited.
	But I think about, you know, it's.
	Just chat.
	Don't be like, poor little guy.
	He knows what he's doing.
	You have to set boundaries.
	I let him in once and I wasn't angry with him, but twice.
	No, he knows now.
	He knows.
	He's got to go deal with it.
	I've spent all morning doing stuff with him.
	Don't worry.
	Hundreds of thousands of people who've watched the videos that you created with us about, you know, how we view money and pop culture.
	And I think about all those people who now consume the media that they consume in a way that's more thoughtful from a financial perspective, who have a keener understanding of these things.
	And to think that all of that, and that's just the limited stuff that you've done with our channel, that all of that sort of means nothing when we get to this kind of a backlash, that there's no accounting for all of this work and that often we can drive people away.
	Does the left drive people away?
	No, I can't believe this army of goblins that harasses their own leadership is driving people away.
	If you're not some sort of raving, frothing, progressive, lunatic psycho on Twitter, yeah, it's the sort of thing that might drive you, might drive someone away.
	Do you feel resentful about it?
	Yeah.
	Absolutely.
	I think there's a.
	Are you resentful about your own audience?
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, hell yeah.
	I hate those people.
	Worst people on earth.
	Who?
	My own audience.
	That's who.
	Unbelievable, isn't it?
	Unbelievable.
	The glee in this idea of unmasking people, which is why I titled the video the way I did, where it's just like this idea that whatever, you know, because again, this is one of Sargon's favorite narratives is that whatever you put out into the world, you don't actually believe it.
	You're saying the most politically expedient thing that'll make you popular.
	Is that my narrative?
	I mean, I don't tend to call people grifters very often.
	I don't think.
	I think it is fairly rare that I actually call people grifters.
	I mean, mostly, for the most part, I actually think that most people do actually believe in what they say.
	I think most people, I mean, you get like individual people who like Vorsch, who are obviously grifters, who will hold contradictory opinions at the same time in the same conversation.
	And so you know that person's a grifter.
	But I don't think Lindsay Ellis is a grifter.
	I think that she's someone who believes in something that is the thing that facilitates psychopaths in order to give them moral cover to pretend to be good people as they are victimizing you.
	I don't think that Lindsay Ellis is a grifter.
	She works hard.
	She does, you know, like hour-long videos talking about a movie or something, you know, really useful to society.
	No, I shouldn't criticize.
	I've done that plenty.
	But, you know, this is what she does.
	That's fine.
	I don't think she's a grifter.
	I don't think it is actually one of my favorite narratives.
	I think this is just projection.
	I think that people on the left are the ones who are saying, oh, no one on the right wing believes anything they think.
	No, I think most of them believe what they think too.
	And I think that you don't get into this kind of game, this kind of sphere of life if you don't believe.
	It's actually quite hard, I think, to be a grifter.
	There's a lot to have to consider.
	And it would just be easier to do something that's non-political.
	I've been thinking about this for a while.
	I could have just been like, you know what, screw politics.
	I'll just make non-political videos.
	You can see the scale of the numbers in just other spheres of YouTube.
	And it would be so much easier to be like, you know what?
	I'm just going to sidestep this and make gaming videos.
	There are loads of fun gaming videos I could make that were cool or whatever.
	And you know that these get millions of views and stuff like that.
	But I really think that what we're doing here politically is actually important.
	And I think that if I were to just, you know, be like, yeah, screw this.
	I'm going to throw in the towel and go do something else.
	I'd essentially be capitulating.
	And I don't think that's an acceptable option.
	But no, it's not one of my favorite narratives to call people grifters.
	You know, and if your media criticism is in such and such a way, you're not actually saying something you believe.
	You're just spouting whatever, you know, the woke talking points of the day are.
	Okay, again, this is not exactly correct.
	So the problem with the woke talking points is that they're eminently predictable because they have a particular set of standards and beliefs that mean that you can actually program people like NPCs.
	There's a reason the NPC meme really applied to the left.
	Whereas it doesn't really, I mean, it probably applies, you probably have like Islamic NPCs and stuff like that.
	But it doesn't really apply everywhere else because everywhere else there does seem to be a plurality of thought within the sort of culture in which it's developed to discuss these issues.
	But on the left, there are certain things that are just assumed by all of them.
	And that's why they all seem to be the same.
	And I think it's interesting as well, Lindsay.
	You did just say that you were very careful about what you said in case you accidentally incited your own goblin army against you.
	And so now you're like, well, Sargon says that I'm not saying what I think for whatever reason.
	And it's like, well, you kind of said that, didn't you?
	You know, isn't that your point again?
	And so that is sort of the, I think that's sort of the mindset that people come into whenever they're like, and that is why nothing you ever said was ever honest.
	And this is your real self.
	No, that's not fair.
	And that's not true.
	You know, I think that things Lindsay Dale says are honest.
	They're just wrong.
	Is the self we've made up where, you know, comparing the Disney thing to the Nickelodeon thing is indicative of me saying all Asians are the same.
	And that's the real you.
	And so.
	Why would I say that?
	Like, that's obviously what the leftists who follow you say.
	That's clearly what your own audience is saying.
	That's not me saying that.
	So none of this other stuff is real or honest.
	You just said that and did that for money.
	is the narrative.
	I feel like in the most sort of...
	Look at her hand motions, man.
	What's the word I'm looking for?
	Like, she's so nervous.
	She just not nervous because of my army of the men of the West.
	She's nervous because of her own goblin army.
	She's worried they're going to cannibalize her over this.
	Cancellation stories.
	There are obviously a fair amount of right-wing grifters whose entire origin story was like.
	Oh, that's right.
	Everyone on the right-wing's a grifter.
	Sorry, I forgot.
	I was a liberal.
	Yeah.
	And then I was cancelled.
	And now I believe in like trickle-down economics.
	Yeah.
	There's no such thing as trickle-down economics.
	And unsurprisingly, there are lots of people who are center-left liberals like myself who are now apparently conservative or right-wing.
	Even though really, I don't actually think many of my actual viewpoints and principles have actually changed.
	It's just the left has decided to go radically to the left.
	But this makes us all grifters now.
	Now we don't believe in what we say, even though they think that we think they don't believe in what they say, even though I think they probably do believe in what they say.
	What they believe is just stupid.
	And self-deceptive, I think is a way to put it.
	You're not admitting that you are wrong on something.
	That's the problem.
	Which I think is like, there's no way that's sincere, right?
	There we go.
	There's no way that's why can't people have a change of heart?
	Why can't people change their beliefs?
	Why not?
	Have your ideologies, political alignments, values changed?
	No, not at all.
	But I think there are some very like, I don't want to say weak-minded, but easily.
	That would be rather ironic, wouldn't it?
	Gaslit people who absolutely that's happened to.
	Easily gaslit.
	That's interesting.
	Who's doing the gaslighting?
	Like, the conservatives are surprisingly consistent in their positions.
	Take Benj Piro, actually.
	He's fairly consistent.
	And all the rest of the Daily Wire guys.
	You can actually reasonably predict what the take of, say, Michael Knowles or Andrew Clavin is going to be on a particular subject.
	At least in certain subjects.
	Anyway, you know, I don't think that they're gaslighting people.
	So who's doing the gaslighting?
	Just out of interest.
	Like, I've met some of these people where basically, like, they'll get chased out of a lefty space for saying something tone deaf.
	And who chased them?
	Oh, the bullies that you cultivated in the lefty space.
	And then someone on the right is nice to them.
	And they will completely disagree with them politically, but that doesn't matter.
	And what matters is they were nice to them.
	And then they agree that, yes, you were treated unfairly by these woke liberals, blah, blah, blah.
	So woke people treat people unfairly.
	And I would say, Lindsay, you are a person who has been treated unfairly by the woke left.
	I think that's true.
	I think it is right.
	I think that what you're saying here is completely correct.
	I don't think you're grifting.
	I think you're telling us something sincere, that people get chased out of left-wing spaces unfairly for unfair reasons.
	And then people on the right are like, hello, we're not going to be mean to you.
	We're not going to be, we're not going to be evil.
	We're not an army of goblins over here.
	And so they're like, oh, well, maybe I'd like to hang out with those people who aren't an army of goblins and who aren't going to tear me apart for saying something tone deaf.
	And over a period of time, they do change their political alignments because, you know, the right-wingers were who was nice to them.
	So I think it really kind of depends on, like, you know, are you susceptible to that sort of thing?
	Well, the thing is, Lindsay, and Leopard Print Girl.
	The thing is, there is actually a reason for that.
	And it's actually inside left-wing politics.
	Now, if you were to unpack your own ideology a bit, go right down to the very bottom of it.
	And there's a core axiom that the kernel around which it's all built.
	And that, this one kernel is what makes people being nice to you a political statement.
	You ready?
	You ready?
	You ready, everyone?
	The personal is political.
	Oh my God.
	Oh, my God.
	That's right.
	The personal is fucking political, Lindsay.
	That's your opinion.
	That's your opinion.
	And so when people are being nice to you, that's a political statement.
	And when people are being nasty to you, that's also a political statement.
	So you have an army of politicized, psychopathic, goblin leftists who are like, yeah, we're going to be horrible to people all day, every day, all on Twitter and everyone.
	And there's literally no one who's outside of our ayah.
	And you're like, fuck me.
	This is the politics of the left, is it?
	This permeates their entire personal and political lives.
	And then people on the right are like, look, you know, we can get past political disagreements, but we're going to be nice to you.
	And it's like, wow.
	So if the personal is political there, whose politics is better for the individual?
	Whose politics is better for society?
	Whose politics is better overall?
	Obviously, it's the right-wing politics.
	This bullshit that's like, oh, well, I just, they've been gaslit.
	No, they've looked at you.
	They've taken your assumption.
	The personal is political and be like, wow, on a personal level, all of these people are absolute shits.
	Absolute evil bastards.
	I'm going to go and stand on the walls of Gondor or whatever and defend that instead.
	Screw you.
	And I'm not surprised.
	And I hope more of them come over to our side.
	You know, I don't see why anyone would defend what's happening to you.
	You know, I'm not, I'm, I'm in your defense here, Lindsay.
	You should not have been bullied by your own goblin army.
	That's correct.
	I agree with you.
	Because I do think it happens.
	God.
	Sadly.
	I think it happened too.
	Interestingly.
	You probably don't know this, but when I was about three months into my writing career, I wrote an article that went mega viral for very bad reasons.
	And I was proto-cancelled at the time.
	Like, we didn't call it that, but I basically wrote about how the slut walk was an embarrassment because women who dress slutty, like, they don't deserve to be assaulted, but what do you expect?
	Like, it was horrible.
	And, like, it was also true.
	Carry on.
	At the time, I think I was 22.
	I had like a lot of like really confused, like, quasi-libertarian beliefs.
	And that was also like at a time.
	What's wrong with quasi-libertarian beliefs?
	I mean, I think a lot of people have quasi-libertarian beliefs in the form of, well, maybe people could just leave me alone.
	That would be good.
	That seems to be the core of libertarianism, which is really quite relatable, isn't it?
	You know, I guess you were just an evil right-winger then, weren't you?
	That was what it was.
	when like feminism was not popular it was like right before gamer gate it was like all kinds it was yeah we I was coming out of a very specific context.
	But being sort of quote-unquote cancelled at that time and having that be such cancelled for advising women to have a bit of personal responsibility, dignity and decorum about themselves.
	Amazing.
	And just to be clear, right?
	Look at these two women.
	They're dressed quite conservatively.
	So if we're going to talk about like, you know, they can profess all of the progressive politics.
	Oh, yeah, women should be slutty and all that.
	Yeah, yeah.
	But their revealed preferences are for what nature intends, right?
	A conservative dress is not to be provocative and not to attract undue male attention when they want to be given attention for their, I don't know, critical thinking skills or something like that.
	Their revealed preferences show they're not into slut walks.
	They're not into that kind of thing.
	They're actually as conservative at heart as the rest of us.
	Even to this day, a high part of my Google results, in some ways at the time, like it, I do look back and think, like, well, maybe to an extent that inoculates me because if anyone goes digging, like, it's on page one, girl.
	But then I thought, well, probably doesn't because there are other things.
	But I do remember my first, like, for the first month, especially, my thought was that I was like, I want to go even further into these really reactionary beliefs because at least I won't be treated a certain way if I align myself with those people.
	Amazing.
	That's such an amazing admission.
	Like, guys, clip that, get it out, get it everywhere on Twitter.
	Come on.
	Come on.
	If I become a reactionary, people don't treat me like I'm a piece of shit.
	Like, if I align myself with conservative beliefs, people are polite to me.
	People aren't a piece of shit to me.
	People aren't going to bully me on the internet.
	People aren't going to cancel me.
	People are going to treat me like a fucking human being.
	They're not going to treat me like an internet goblin.
	Like, amazing.
	That is amazing admissions are coming out of this.
	This is so, so good.
	This is just, they're spinning gold here.
	And I know there were people like, oh, what are you doing this for?
	You got to understand.
	You got to know how to extract the value from what they're doing here because what they're doing is fucking demolishing progressive politics on the internet right here.
	Just these two kind, gentle women sat here going, you know what?
	We're victims of our own online communities.
	I can see why people want to want to get out of these.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And I think most people.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Like, it's really hard to like prioritize abstract.
	Yes, chat.
	Yeah.
	She literally just admitted the left uses social terror in order to keep people in line.
	Whereas if you go to the right, people are kind and generous and understanding.
	She literally just admitted it.
	This is so good.
	This is just gold.
	And Lindsay, I'm so sorry that I'm creating a narrative that your community sucks and they're a goblin army that terrorize you.
	But that is what you're saying.
	So why is it my narrative?
	It's your narrative.
	I'm just making sure that we're all clear on the points that you're making.
	You know, like theoretical beliefs about how we can like, you know, build a more robust welfare system and, you know, get money out of politics versus the way people treat you on the day-to-day.
	You know, I think most people just want people to be nice to them.
	And I think, you know, and the leftists just can't understand that idea.
	Again, the personal is political.
	Their politics is terrorizing people.
	Their politics is being cruel to people, as all of left-wing politics Politics has been since the beginning of left-wing politics.
	Go back to the French Revolution and ask yourself: was there something?
	Oh, what was that?
	Oh, yeah, it was called the Reign of Terror.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	And then you had the Red Terror during the Soviets, and then you had the Cultural Revolution.
	You're just like, wow, where is it that there wasn't terror in left-wing politics?
	Even in something as milquetoast as Lindsay Ellis's Twitter feed, the left are terrorizing people still, but the right are being kind and compassionate from their own words.
	I'm not going to say that my political beliefs have changed, but like I definitely, even well before this, would tailor, you know, what I said on social media and like omit things that I thought might be controversial or might, you know, lead to a bad interpretation or something.
	So yeah, I would absolutely like self-censor just in, you know, just because I'm like, you know, my opinion doesn't really matter on this thing and I'm not going to affect anything.
	And it's just going to bring misery to me personally.
	Therefore, I'm just not going to say anything.
	And that's left-wing political discourse, folks.
	Doesn't happen with me and my friends who are now the right wing.
	This, I love this so much.
	It's just like, you know, I'm just going to self-censor because I don't want this goblin army tearing my face off over this.
	I'm not, you know, you're not worried about the good guys coming and hurting you.
	No, you're worried about the villains coming and hurting you.
	At the moment, on my Facebook page, I fucking hate seagulls.
	I fucking hate seagulls.
	And I also fucking hate hyenas.
	And I've just got this running meme on my Facebook page.
	And no one's like giving me shit about talking smack about seagulls and hyenas.
	Like, there's no hyena lovers or something like that.
	Because everyone can see that it's obviously a joke.
	And so I can just like, here's a stupid opinion about something that's obviously a joke.
	Ha ha ha.
	And everyone's like, ha ha ha.
	And making memes about like communist seagulls stealing food out of your hands on the beach.
	Seagulls are the communists of the air, by the way.
	And hyenas are the seagulls of the savannah.
	I stand by this.
	But that's the point, isn't it?
	I could just make these kind of jokes and have this kind of laugh with my audience.
	Lindsay Ellis has got a self-censor because it's like, oh, I'm not saying anything on that subject.
	That might get me cancelled.
	God damn.
	These admissions are just roaring.
	Absolutely roaring.
	These are so good.
	I have to be honest that your situation was the first one that after years happened, I did go through and I googled myself in a lot of keywords because yours was the first one that really gave me that feeling because I always sort of naively felt, I think, before that, my content speaks for itself.
	People know who I am.
	They know my values.
	They know the work that I do.
	They know the life that I live.
	And I don't know who this woman is.
	That will be good enough.
	And I think that the extent to which your experience was so obviously in bad faith and so easily sort of self-propagating, it was, you know, I had candid conversations with some of my coworkers.
	Like, if this happens, like, from a financial perspective, and I do want to get to the finances, like, there has to be a contingency plan.
	Right.
	So there's a group of left-wing terrorists on Twitter who, in bad faith, will attack anyone that they can find an excuse to attack.
	And you have to make bug out plans, contingency plans, just in case it happens to you.
	Like, you're standing on a fucking landmine.
	What are you doing?
	You're walking through a minefield, literally on Twitter, being a left-wing content creator.
	Who would choose this?
	Who would choose this?
	Well, there are reasons to choose this, actually.
	And Lindsay will get to them.
	I'll carry on for as long as I can, but I do have to go fairly soon.
	But there are reasons that they would do this.
	And honestly, I would say that this is an abusive relationship.
	If you're in a relationship with a partner who would literally terrorize you, but then lavish gifts on you afterwards, I think we'd call that an abusive relationship.
	But anyway.
	Because I do think no matter how far out of my way I go to make sure that I'm representing myself and my company in a way that I think would withstand something like that, if there's a motivated enough contingent and enough quote-unquote evidence, no matter how spurious, it can happen to you, I think.
	No, absolutely.
	And I think people, that's a big problem that people always have with stuff like this is like they're like, again, with a lot of the criticism I was getting.
	They just sound like hostages, don't they?
	Like, this is not my experience of life on the internet.
	Just saying.
	So if you're a leftist watching this, feel free to leave leftist politics anytime you like and your life will get measurably better.
	I promise you.
	And even after the video went up, where, you know, they would try to explain like, well, here's why that tweet was problematic, actually, even if you take into consideration the context of the media in question.
	And like, you know, it's just like basically all the sort of like reverse engineering to kind of be like, well, you kind of deserved it, you know, because you did do something wrong.
	Oof.
	And like, the.
	Yeah, people in the chat are noticing how she looks so nervous, like her body language.
	She's always looking around.
	She's looking at the camera as if she's like pleading, please don't cancel me, please.
	But look, you are actually terrorizing me, so I don't know what to do.
	And the constant like wringing of the hands.
	It's like, oh, my goodness.
	Poor woman.
	And honestly, right.
	I know I've had a bit of a go, but like, I actually genuinely do feel bad for her because I don't think she's a bad person.
	You know, I don't think she's unkind.
	I don't think that she's cruel to the people in her life.
	And the thing is, I don't even think her content is bad, right?
	I just really disagree with her politics.
	And so whenever she spins whatever political narrative about the piece of content she's creating, well, I disagree with that, you know, because I don't agree with her politics.
	But that's not me saying all of her film criticism or literary criticism or whatever she does is bad.
	I don't know that it is, and I don't think it is.
	I only watched a few of her videos.
	But I mean, it seems competent and she's got a very large audience.
	Lots of people enjoy watching it.
	And so if that's the kind of thing you like, I'm sure she's doing a good job for you.
	You know, so this nerves, the fear that permeates everything that she's doing seems deeply misplaced and the product of an abusive segment of her audience, which it is.
	The reverse engineering, I think, is like just this impulse people have to sort of like reassure themselves that they have control of their own like narrative, of their own, like, you know, the way they're perceived by other people, the way people will treat them.
	And it's just, it's just a lie.
	It's a delusion.
	You don't have control over this sort of thing.
	Like, if it hadn't been that, it could have been something, you know, it could have been something else.
	It could have been another thing that was dug up, you know.
	The control that you express over this, Lindsay, is not being a part of it.
	That's the control.
	Once you enter into the Twitter Thunderdome, you're right.
	You don't have control over it.
	But you don't have to be a part of left-wing politics.
	You don't have to have these communities.
	You don't have to engage with them.
	You could just detach from them and say, look, this is not my politics anymore.
	I'm going to make the content I want to make for me.
	And hopefully I'll find an audience for that.
	Which I'm sure she would.
	My bad Prince of Egypt opinions.
	What are they?
	Because I'll call them out right here and now.
	Let's get it.
	Yeah.
	It's a.
	So basically, it really isn't.
	What's the opposite of merit?
	Like, it really can just be anyone for any reason.
	Well, and I think our cultural discourses around things like problematic have made it so that, A, it's like.
	Good point in the chat.
	She's talking as if she's been assaulted.
	This is like a police interview.
	You guys are exactly right.
	Like, she, honestly, she sounds like a victim, you know, a real victim of what the left-wing community online has done.
	She really does.
	It's like no longer sort of an instinct.
	If you've got an instinct.
	Battered leftist syndrome.
	I mean, exactly, that's exactly what it sounds like, isn't it?
	Like, Jesus.
	To say, like, this person sucks.
	I don't like what they do.
	That's not acceptable because that's bullying.
	That's mean.
	So to wrap it in the language of they're problematic or to put some sort of emotional, psychological spin in it, I think, gives validity and also puts you in the position of like, now you're doing something morally righteous.
	Yeah, exactly.
	You know, like, I think people have just lost the ability to dislike people or media without it framing it in a way that is like, and also I'm doing the world justice.
	I'm doing a good thing here.
	The personal is political.
	You can't separate your personal opinions from your political activism.
	Remember, Lindsay, politics is the management of power.
	This means that they think everything you do is part of the shifting power dynamics of society.
	And if you have an opinion that doesn't have any particular knock-on effect to anyone else, your private opinions, for example, about just something silly, they think that's still part of the management of political and social power.
	So it's like there's no getting away from it.
	There is no getting away from it.
	This is a core feature of left-wing politics that enables them to be able to terrorize you over a film called The Prince of Egypt.
	I've never seen it.
	I don't know or care anything about it.
	But apparently, this is something that people are terrorizing you over.
	That's why.
	You can't get away from it.
	There is no you just having an opinion or having some banter on the internet.
	That's gone.
	Those days are over.
	That's done.
	They need like, oh, so-and-so abused their girlfriend.
	Right.
	Yeah, like threw a rock through a window, and that's why you can't like their music.
	You know, it's just like, we have just like lost the ability to just be like, not for me.
	Meanwhile, and I feel like this.
	I've explained why.
	You've lost the ability because you deliberately removed it.
	You made everything you did a political statement.
	Everything.
	Everything is a political statement.
	So everything is up for criticism and up for bullying, I guess, basically.
	This is what's most frustrating about it.
	There are so many people who like have actual serious, serious criminal pasts or have done things that are really duplicitous, who like continue to skate by on all kinds of images.
	Yeah, we call those people male feminists.
	It just is also so sort of inconsistently applied in terms of the person who receives it.
	And I think it's probably not a coincidence that yours exploded at a time where your success was very visible.
	Yeah, and I think, and I had a lot of people that did remember something I said, something to the tune of like, no apology was ever demanded in good faith.
	But I still think that's true.
	You cannot demand an apology from someone.
	Of course you can demand an apology from someone.
	What sort of statement is that?
	Of course you can demand an apology.
	What a bizarre perspective that is.
	I mean, like, if I say, like, you know, if you're living, you're sharing a house, right?
	And you leave some food in the fridge and you're like, right, I'll eat that for breakfast tomorrow.
	And your housemate comes down, sees it, and then thinks, oh, well, that's just leftover food.
	I'll eat that.
	Not knowing that you are planning to eat it.
	And you go down and you say, oh, did you eat my thing?
	And they're like, yeah, I did.
	You can demand an apology because it was yours.
	And there's an expectation on your part that it should be there.
	And they had violated this covenant of trust that they wouldn't just take your things.
	And so you are entitled.
	They have an obligation not to take your stuff.
	And so you are actually entitled to demand an apology from them.
	And they're obligated to give it.
	It's part of the relationship that you have with that person.
	But Lindsay, at this point, and I'll talk more about relationships at some point.
	I'm going to write a bit of a thing on this because relationships are deeply important and they are the core of, I think, the right-wing worldview, frankly.
	And they're very important.
	And so how the relationship you have with another person places duties and obligations on you and on them.
	And this is what Lindsay seems to have totally severed.
	Not just her, left-wing politics.
	Left-wing politics seems to be about the principle of the abolition of relationships.
	And so no one has an obligation, a pull on someone else.
	No one is entitled to anything of anyone else's.
	And I'm sorry, but that's just not true.
	You absolutely are.
	In the same way that, you know, I've got obligations to my kids and my wife and my neighbors and things like that.
	You know, people who wrong you, you have a right to demand an apology from them.
	And they have an obligation to give one if you're acting in good faith and if they have actually wronged you.
	But instead, this is what Lindsay says.
	I find this very interesting.
	Right.
	You can hope for one.
	You can ask for one.
	But if you're demanding something, you're not asking for a sincere, you know, reconciliation.
	You're asking for performance.
	You know, you're asking for them to bend the knee.
	Right.
	Or rather, you're demanding it because you cannot demand an apology from someone.
	Right.
	So she's saying don't bend the knee, which I agree with.
	But that's not really what this is about.
	Because what it is, is an apology is meaningful when it's between two people, one person who, two people who have some kind of relationship, but have some kind of obligation to consider one another's feelings.
	Because most things that have been done are done in error.
	As in the person doesn't really, or wasn't really aware that they were hurting you or offending you, whatever it is, when you did that thing.
	The reason that these online don't bend the knee apologies don't work is because you do not have a fucking relationship with this goblin army that is harassing you on Twitter.
	Hence, apologizing to them is not the restoration of a damaged emotional bond that is between you.
	That is your relationship.
	So there's nothing to apologize for.
	You didn't break their, you know, that you didn't let them down.
	They didn't have expectations that you wouldn't, you know, drink the last beer or something.
	You know, there's no reason that you have to give an apology to someone who says they didn't like your content or one of your takes.
	That's not what an apology is.
	There are genuine times when an apology is warranted.
	There are genuine times when an apology isn't warranted.
	And then there are people who will try and blur that distinction and make you apologize for things you shouldn't have to apologize for.
	And that's why you don't bend the knee.
	It's just a shame that Lindsay doesn't get this.
	I think that's probably me saying, I'm probably going to have to go as knocking on my door.
	Right.
	So, shame I only got 26 minutes through this because I'm sure there are a few other interesting things.
	But I think we've gone through about enough.
	So thank you, everyone, for joining me.

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