Danny Sheehan details Oscar Wolf's deathbed confession regarding a telepathic encounter with an extraterrestrial at S4 near Area 51 and presents classified crash retrieval photographs featuring symbols resembling Bob Lazar's descriptions. He connects these revelations to his legal work with Luis Elizondo and Dr. John Mack, while analyzing the FBI and CIA's historical recruitment of Mormon members for intelligence operations due to their disciplined lifestyles and beliefs in seeding life on other planets. Ultimately, the episode suggests that credible UFO evidence exists within declassified files, yet institutional barriers prevent broader public acknowledgment of these extraterrestrial contacts. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, MahmoudAshraf/mms-300m-1130-forced-aligner, sat-12l-sm, script v0.9, and large-v3-turbo
Time
Text
Underground Saucers at S400:13:39
The commander comes to him one day and he says, Look, I need you to come with me.
I've been asked to go to S4, way down under the ground.
And he said, They go in and he saw actual saucers that were there, he said, you know, kind of just floating there.
They were like three or four of them.
Underground.
Yeah, down underground at S4.
We come into this area and he said, There was this room there with this big one way mirror.
Being there.
His commander went into the room and was having this telepathic communication with him.
And they said they had these index cards that had the questions and answers.
And one of the questions that they asked him, he said, was, you know, like, where are you guys from?
And what are you doing here, right?
The ET guy said, I am one of a person from different star systems in our galaxy who have all been tasked with going around together.
To different planets where life has actually begun and to monitor how it's going.
And that's where I saw the photographs of a crash retrieval.
There wasn't any doubt about what it was.
It was not Roswell because it was snow on the ground.
It was snow on the ground.
You can see in the photos that it had plowed through this field and it plowed up all the dirt in the snow.
I saw that there were symbols actually on the bottom or along the bottom of the dome.
That was at the top of this.
It was a classic saucer.
I actually traced every single one of the symbols.
Oh, yeah, sure.
Yeah.
Here, I'll show you.
Could you draw what you saw in the picture?
Yeah, here's the big hillside.
And so I could see that all along the bottom, right along the bottom of the disc, right?
The bottom of the dome.
The bottom of the dome, that I could see these symbols.
And they looked like this.
The Church of Scientology.
Believes that there's a major confrontation going on between reptilian extraterrestrial species from Zeta Reticuli and the people from the Pleiades.
In the next four year period, we're getting set to lay the groundwork for establishing the protocols that are going to govern our relationship with this extraterrestrial civilization for the next 10,000 years.
And I was sworn to secrecy when I was told.
About the psionic, it's called psionic assists.
That there's a technology that they've got that is amping up the capacities of individuals to do telepathic communication.
And it's very dangerous and it's frying out the brains of people that they're testing.
If you had full authority to subpoena anyone or any person or any entity, who would it be?
Are you aware of any whistleblowers or evidence not known by the public about to come out in the next month?
Yes.
I was wondering if you could find an answer for this question.
Is it possible that the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland is working with non terrestrial biological material?
The reason why I ask that is because back when I was a roofer, I went to go work at that particular installation on a building with three smokestacks.
And we were on our way up to the top of the building.
A guy came out of the room with a triangular headed entity that was maybe about two and a half feet tall in a jar of liquid.
And as soon as he saw me and my partner, he told us that he was very sorry and he retreated back into the room.
Ladies and gentlemen, today we are joined by Danny Sheehan, who is a constitutional lawyer.
Who has been involved in some of the most important cases in U.S. history, including Watergate, the Pentagon Papers, Iran Contra?
He's also a key figure in UAP disclosure and an advocate for government transparency.
He's represented people like Luis Elizondo, and he's also founded the New Paradigm Institute and has been, sorry, your role with the Disclosure Project as well.
You're chief counsel.
For 20 years, I was general counsel for the Disclosure Project for Dr. Stephen Greer.
That's right.
So, obviously, this makes you one of the most important figures in the fight for UAP transparency today.
So, thank you, Danny Sheehan, for joining me.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Chris.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm so looking forward to today's conversation because it isn't every day that I get to speak with, first of all, a Harvard trained lawyer, also studied at Divinity School.
You've got just probably the thickest resume out of anyone who's ever sat here and possibly anyone I'll ever meet.
So, it is truly, truly an honor to be able to.
To chat with you about all this.
I appreciate it.
I appreciate a chance to do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So for those of you interested in what Danny's doing, I would highly encourage you.
I do this at the top so people have a chance to look at it, but go check out the new Paradigm Institute and what they're doing.
I left the link below.
It's wonderful what you guys have set up and how long you've been working on this.
I didn't know.
We've talked a lot behind the scenes about this, and we'll get into that also a little bit later.
Sure.
First, I kind of have a bunch of questions here that I want to get to, but ultimately, I would like us to use this time to get a little weird.
You're someone who I've been fascinated with your interviews because you always have these really interesting nuggets of information that I've never heard anywhere else.
And I also want to let the audience know that this isn't coming from, you know, a lot of times there is this frustration with, I can't say this or I can't say that.
Right, right.
But you're a public interest lawyer.
That's right.
Can you give us a little bit of a definition of what that means?
Well, it's interesting.
It's sort of a thing that we created back in the 70s.
That I graduated from law school in 1970, and we were the classes that were coming out of the law schools at that time didn't think that any of the other kind of slots were appropriate.
We'd end up working for major corporations, or we'd work for the government as a prosecutor or a public defender's office.
And so the one spot that they had to go to was ACLU if you were going to be doing kind of civil liberties work.
But ACLU was not as aggressive as a lot of us wanted to be.
So, at the Harvard Civil Rights Law Review, I had sent out letters to lawyers all around the country saying that, you know, if you have a really interesting and important constitutional law issue, send it to us and let us, we'll pick some and we'll write briefs and stuff about it.
And that's where the very first case we did ended up establishing the right of journalists to protect their confidential news sources.
So, it went all the way to the United States Supreme Court and it established the right of journalists to protect their confidential news sources against government.
Compelled disclosure in grand juries mostly.
And so we ended up making friends with a lot of investigative journalists.
And so we started discovering all kinds of issues that were going on that needed to have lawyers.
And so we kind of developed this whole kind of public interest trust of lawyers all together working on these things.
And so we developed this kind of category of a public interest lawyer.
So whenever I agreed to represent someone later, I would say, look, you know, you've come to me usually and asked me to represent you.
And it's because you've got some kind of a cause, a really important thing that you're trying to achieve as a matter of public policy.
I agree with you on that.
Otherwise, I wouldn't be representing you.
And so you have to understand that in addition to representing you and your particular interest in this, we represent the issue itself and the people who need to get access to this information.
So we have to have an agreement kind of upfront that I'm here working with you on this and we've got our own public interest objectives.
And so, that you need to understand that as a condition of our working together.
So, I've had those conversations with Dr. John Mack, for example, at Harvard.
I had that conversation with Marsha Smith when she asked me to come and work on the major investigation for the Library of Congress, Congressional Research Service for President Carter.
And I explained that to Luis Elizondo.
I've explained it to Stephen Bassett when I was working with them.
So, I've had a whole series of these clients, as it were.
It wasn't that popular when I was at this law firm, the Cahill firm, where we represented the New York Times and NBC.
You know, because I would tell them that, that, you know, I'm not going to just do whatever it is you tell me to do.
You know, in fact, after two years at the firm, they explained to me that they thought that my interests were not necessarily the same as all of their clients in sort of asking me to leave, you know.
And I said, no, I'm fine.
I'm fine.
You know, I'm representing the New York Times and NBC and, you know, Doing, you know, I get to spend 50% of my time doing public interest cases, you know.
So that's how I was at Attica Prison the night everybody was killed there.
You know, I, you know, did the, represented the men in the Manhattan House of Correction for men, did the, filed the big lawsuit against them for cruel, unusual punishment, you know, and lots of these other cases that I was doing.
And then I said it to Lee Bailey, F. Lee Bailey, when he asked me to come to join his firm when we were doing the Watergate burglary case.
And for example, I, Investigated the reason why the Traficanti people were in the Watergate Hotel.
Bailey didn't seem to care, or he may have already known, but I conducted that investigation.
That's how I figured out what was going on, why they were in the Watergate Hotel, and all that.
So, this is all because this seems to be the MO that the through line with your work is that you're all about transparency.
You're really, really fighting for the people's right to know about UAP, about This consciousness work, but also about these other fronts, these other civil cases that you've represented.
And being this type of lawyer, also, a lot of this is pro bono work.
It's all pro bono work.
It's all pro bono work.
Well, except when I was at the law firm.
Correct.
It was kind of bizarre.
I was actually getting paid for it.
It was kind of unique because I wasn't doing anything.
I was working all the time, so I didn't ever get to use it.
That's a surprise to a lot of people, I think.
Most people, when they hear lawyer, they think, oh, this person's all about.
The bills and all of it.
And it's not necessarily the case.
It actually isn't the case at all with you.
And so, you know, to hear that, and this extends beyond just legalities, this actually touches into like TS clearance opportunities that you've denied as well.
That's right.
For the same reasons.
Oh, yeah.
I refuse to ever accept a security clearance because then I'll never get to tell anybody about all the other stuff that I know.
Yeah.
You know, of course, I spent 10 years at Jesuit headquarters.
Yes.
In Washington, D.C., as their general counsel in what they call their social ministry office.
And so I was into this whole thing of not needing to get paid for anything, you know, or charging anybody anything.
And it therefore gives you the additional freedom to say, look, we're representing the public interest here.
You're here because you agree with me that we have to be meeting the public interest.
So, you know, you're not paying me.
Yeah.
You know, you can't be strong armed by a paycheck.
Yeah.
But even though I joke once in a while, I mean, people say, You know, what do you guess is going on in here?
What do you guess about this or that?
I say, no, I don't get paid to guess.
You know, of course, I don't get paid at all, as it turns out.
So, we raise money.
We get contributions from people that get tax deductions, and just like ACLU or NAACP or anything else.
Yeah.
So, that's, I've set those up over the years.
I think that's tremendously commendable and obviously very important for this conversation that we're about to have as well.
Because I think we needed that at the top because there is a growing frustration among the community with this.
You know, with this topic, because people want to, they, you know, they don't want people to have some weird hidden agenda because that has happened in the past and there's been, you know, we've been slighted before by this stuff.
And so I think, I think people are, you know, to, to, they're just really critical of whoever, you know, talks about this subject.
So I thought that was really, really commendable, but also really important to get out of the way.
Secret JFK Assassination Records00:02:25
Great.
Right before we were setting up the cameras, you had mentioned something that we spoke about last night.
Now, you'd mentioned this gentleman.
Oscar Wolf.
Oh, Oscar, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, this is an amazing story.
Yeah.
It is a great story.
Yeah.
Because it ties into S4, which ties into inevitably Bob Lazar, but also Dan Burrish and all these other really fringe sort of cases.
But there is a really interesting portion of the story that you're about to tell.
Yeah.
And that has to do with a deathbed confession.
Yes, that's right.
Oh, the FBI finds secret JFK assassination records.
But how can I trust this?
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Demanding News Transparency00:10:53
So, I get a call from this old man.
His name is Oscar Wolf.
And he calls me on the phone at my headquarters office in Washington and wants me to come and see him, he's dying.
He's in hospice, actually.
And he wants me to come see him.
And I said, Well, look, I've got a lot of things to do.
I've got a lot of people I need to see.
Why should I make this a priority?
He said that I was, he said, in the classified portion of Project Blue Book.
I was fully employed there as a U.S. Army stenographer and bookkeeper.
So I said, okay.
So I fly out there.
He was out in Minnesota.
So I flew into Minneapolis and rented a little car and drove up into this little teeny town where he was.
So I go to the little hospice place and there he is with all the tubes in him and in his arms.
And he's got one of those little things on wheels he's having to walk around with.
And so we sat down and he started explaining to me that.
He was assigned to the portion of Project Blue Book that they never admitted they had, which was over 700 incidents in which they couldn't conceivably explain it away.
There were too many people who had seen it.
The witnesses who had seen it were too credible.
They had photographs or video or something of it, and they just couldn't call it swamp gas or searchlights on the bottom of clouds.
Jupiter.
Yeah, right.
Or Venus and Mars.
Yeah, Venus.
So he was in that section.
He said, and he started telling me.
So I'm sitting down with him, you know, just like this.
You know, we're sitting off in a little table at the little hospice, and he starts telling me about how that he was a clerk typist from the U.S. Army.
He was in the U.S. Army assigned as a clerk typist to this unit, and he would just be in the office all the time.
And he gave me the name of the base where he was and everything.
And so I started pressing him to, you know, say, Who was your commander?
You know, what was the name of your unit?
You know, what years were you there, et cetera?
And he was.
Forthcoming and telling me this stuff, right?
And then he gets to the point of saying that he would stay in the office and they had these guys who would get assigned from different military units, majorly US Air Force and some Army people.
And they would come through and they would spend a year, sometimes two, going out and doing field interviews and interviewing the people and trying to either talk them out of believing that it was a UFO or, but finally coming back and saying, look, this is the real deal.
Here's my information.
And he would take it all down and keep the records, right?
Then they would go and others would come, but he stayed all through the years in the special division.
And it turns out it was because he belonged to the same church that the commander of that unit was in.
It was a thing called the Worldwide Church of God.
And it was this really fundamentalist, deep kind of conservative Christian sect.
And so that he got on really well with the commander.
So he ends up, the commander comes to him one day and he says, Look, I need you to come with me.
I've been asked to go to S4 out in the West.
We have to leave because he was like in New Jersey.
So he said, and he didn't tell him what they were going to do there.
He says, I want you to come with me.
So they go together and they go to Area 51.
Then they take them all the way like 11 miles away or something.
They go to S4.
Do you know?
Sorry to interrupt.
Do you know if they took a bus or anything or how did they get to say that?
Somebody took them from Area 51 in a car.
He said they were.
He started out just kind of saying, I went to area, I was at for Area 51.
Then they put them in this vehicle and took him and his boss, drove to PAPTOS to the S4.
Yeah.
So he said, they were way down under the ground.
And he said, they went and he saw actual saucers that were there, he said, you know, kind of just floating there.
They were, they're like three or four of them underground.
Yeah.
Down underground at S4.
And they were just like in these little hangers, little, like little garage, like, Thing, each one of them, a little area, and they were just kind of floating there.
And he was kind of, you know, floored by that.
And they, they went and they said that we went into this other section and we come into this area.
And he said, and there was this, this room there with this big one way mirror, like, and you could see through into the room.
But you could tell it wasn't a window, it was like a mirror.
And there was a UFO being there, but it was tall.
It was like, like five and a half feet tall.
And it had like this little, they had a little blue jumpsuit on him.
And, uh, He was in the room and he thought it was demonic, he said, and he didn't want to go near it.
But his commander went into the room and was having this telepathic communication with him.
And he was afraid of the being, he was afraid of it.
So he stayed outside.
And the people that were there, they obviously were having some process they were going through with this ET guy.
And that they'd been questioning him.
And they said they had these index cards that had the questions and answers that he'd provided.
And they were going to show them to Wolf, right?
And so he's.
So, sorry, index cards, they would, of the communications that they had previously.
Yes, earlier.
And they would transcribe them.
Yes, they were all transcribed.
And he didn't tell me whether they were printed out or.
Typed or what they were.
I said, I didn't know.
He just said that they had it there.
And one of the questions that they asked him, he said, was, you know, like, where are you guys from?
And what are you doing here?
Right.
And he said, the ET guy said, you know, that I am one of a person from different star systems in our galaxy who have all been tasked with going around together to different planets where life has actually begun and to monitor how it's going.
He said, and, uh, And just giving reports on this.
And so he'd been asked to follow up because, well, like, who's in charge of that?
Who's tasked you to do all that?
And he said, well, you people would probably consider God, but it's very different than you think it is.
That's what he said.
He said, and I didn't believe him because I thought it was demonic.
And I've never told anybody, never told my wife, I never told anybody about this.
Dying, as you can see, he said.
So, I wanted to tell you that this is true.
So, that's what he explained to me.
So, and the reason I was telling you is we were joking about, you know, failing to turn on the record because I had this little camera that I brought with me.
The staff said, You got to record this guy.
So, I put it on the table and I got it with, I forgot to turn the sound on, you know.
So, I sat there, I interviewed the guy for like a whole Saturday afternoon, then all Sunday morning the next day.
I'm just double checking mics.
Yeah, double check your mics.
But it was really a bummer.
Oh my gosh.
But anyway, that was Wolf.
Wow.
Yeah.
So I'm fortunate that I have things like that that happened in the past to get to talk to interesting people.
You know, that instantly makes me think of Dan Burrish with J Rod.
Yeah.
You know, so many people dismissed that story.
It would be interesting to see him and Bob and all of them just be vindicated one day.
You know, you.
Well, Bursch, you know, the twice three different times that I had people set up meetings that I was supposed to go meet Bursch.
And every single time, you know, he'd have some kind of an excuse, like, you know, his mother's horse died or, you know, right.
Yeah.
You know, and, and, uh, or that his wife had decided he didn't, she wasn't talking to anybody anymore.
And so finally I just sort of dropped it.
I've got a whole stack of stuff in my office.
Uh, there, uh, of all the burrish stuff and lots of details about it.
So, someday I may have to sit down, go through it again, and talk with him.
What's one question you would ask Dan Birsch if you could ask him right now?
And it would be like the last time you ever saw him.
What would that question be?
Does he have any idea of where J Rod, you know, is now, or is there anybody else that are there any other beings that we are presently in direct communication with?
You know, because we've gotten a lot of information since that time of different people that.
Say they've been in underground facilities, and that there are actually different beings there from different species actually working together on some of these bases.
Some people have got some type of coalition or agreement.
Something.
Now, what we're going to do now at the New Paradigm Institute, now that we've turned our full attention to this, because this work has been basically kind of ancillary to a lot of the other major stuff that I was doing.
Sure.
You know, doing the Iran Contra case, the Karen Silkwood case, you know, in all these.
But, you know, so I would go and work with Dr. Mack on the side, basically, and work as general counsel to his peer group, the Project for Extraordinary Experience Research.
But it was all kind of like on my free time.
But now that since Luis Elizondo called me and asked me to represent him, you know, I've given this kind of a higher priority in our whole organization, the Romero Institute, that is the progeny of our old Christic.
The Christic Institute is what we set up out of Jesuit headquarters to do the Karen Silkwood case originally.
Then we did the Three Mile Island case to stop them from pumping all the radioactive effluents into the Susquehanna River.
We did the Greensboro case against the Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazi Party that gunned down all those labor organizers down in Greensboro.
We did the Eddie Carthan, the first elected mayor in the Black Delta, Mississippi, first degree murder case where we caught the guys doing it.
And put them on the stand and broke.
There's lots of really good stories there.
But those are kind of the cases in chief that I was doing all the time.
And all the other stuff was like weekends.
And I would go and do talks at the International UFO Congress, for example, and then these consciousness things, Conscious Life Living Expo.
Christic Institute Origins00:02:03
And so I would just go and do these on the weekend and then come back and go right back to work on Monday.
But this is what you were always really passionate about.
This is what drove your curiosity for years.
You know, we'd spoken last night and you'd said initially you'd set out to be an astronaut.
Yes.
Early on in your, you know, you wanted to join the Air Force.
You were like, this is my way into becoming an astronaut.
That's right.
And the reason you wanted to become an astronaut because I wanted to get to meet people from other star systems.
And I thought that during my lifetime, this is what was going to happen.
We were going to, in the hundred years or so that I had here in this particular incarnation, you know, that we would be actually encountering the beings.
And so I told that to Jacob Javis, as I mentioned to you last night.
You know, I was one of the top three nominees for the Air Force Academy appointment in 1963.
I know I don't look that old, but the bottom line is, you know, when he asked me why I wanted to be an astronaut, I said, well, because I want to get to go into outer space and get to meet these other beings from these other star systems.
And he looked at me and he said, You actually believe that there's other people on planets?
I said, Well, sure.
I said, So do you.
You must.
I mean, you're a United States Senator.
I said, You got to know that.
You got to know that.
So I was right from the very beginning, I was dedicated to wanting to do that.
But as I mentioned to you last night, he ended up, he was so stunned by what I said.
As he said, he said, Look, I've got to admit to you, I'm not supposed to say this, but I've already given the appointment to the Air Force Academy to the son of one of my major funders and supporters.
That's just the way it really is, Dan.
But I'll give you the appointment to the Naval Academy.
And I said, I'm not into boats.
I don't fly.
Wanted to get to be in.
He said, No, no, you can get to fly in the Navy and be in.
I said, No, I don't want to have to go through all the boat stuff.
Yeah.
You know, I want to do the planes.
And so he said, Well, look, you can get the appointment from your congressman.
He said, And you don't have to have the senatorial appointment.
Astronaut Appointment Path00:06:13
You know, there's, you know, like a few dozen congressional appointments from New York.
You know, who's your congressman?
He said, And I said, It's Carlton King.
He said, Oh, I know Carlton King.
I'll give him a call.
He said, I'll just tell him to give it to you.
Well, it turns out that he gave the appointment, Carlton King gave the appointment to.
The son of the Republican mayor of Glenn's Falls, you know, who was number seven in our congressional district competition.
Number seven.
Yeah.
And so I said, Oh, look, our government, I thought, is a little bit out of tune here.
I said, So I better become a lawyer.
And then I can work a little while and help get our government back into tune.
And actually, when I got out to practice, I discovered that our government wasn't just a little out of tune.
It was playing an entirely different song than we'd been taught.
And so I got caught in this and doing the Iran Contra case, doing the Pentagon Papers case, and discovering this entire netherworld.
But all the while, still pursuing NHI.
Yeah.
Well, actually, it reached out to me a bit.
I was at Jesuit headquarters in 1976 when President Carter got elected.
When President Carter got elected, one of the very first things he did before he'd even come into Washington, of having been the governor down in Georgia, he gets elected president on November 4th of 1976.
And on the 19th of November of 1976, he orders the head of the CIA to come down to Plains, Georgia, to come to his home.
And brief him on the UFO issue because he had seen a UFO when he was governor.
And not just a little light in the sky, but I mean, like the length of a football field away.
And there were 11 other guys with him who saw it.
And so he filed a report with NICAP at the time about it.
And so the bottom line he demanded to get briefed in.
And the person who was the head of the CIA on November 19th, 1976, was George H.W. Bush.
That's right.
And George Bush said to him, Look, he said, what I want to do is before I decide whether to brief or not, I want you to agree to leave me on as your CIA director.
I want to become like J. Edgar Hoover was for the FBI.
I want to be able to stay one administration after another.
And if you'll appoint me to be your CIA director, I'll agree never to run for public office anywhere, ever.
And President Carter said, President elect Carter at that time said, No, I've got somebody in mind already.
You know, but so he wouldn't.
So Bush refused to brief him, saying he had no need to know the information and he wasn't going to tell him.
So, President Carter, after his inauguration, contacted the head of the Science and Technology Committee of the House of Representatives and asked them if they would task the Congressional Research Service to find out everything that we knew about the UFOs, what documents we had and what witnesses we had, or anything at all.
And so that was assigned to Dr. Marsha Smith, who was the head of the Science and Technology Division.
You know, and people, people all, it sounds more impressive than it really, really was.
You know, people go, oh, well, Dr. Marsha Smith called you, you know, at the headquarters, just picked up the phone and called you to.
No, what happened is I was a candidate for the Jesuit priesthood at the time.
And I was like, I was over going to the mass at Dan Berrigan.
Father Dan Berrigan was the roommate of my Jesuit superior.
And so I was, I actually represented Berrigan.
Phil and Liz McAllister, and some of them, and some demonstrations and stuff.
And so, that I would go over to the Mass when he was in Washington.
And I was at Mass, and there was this one woman, this matron y young woman who was there.
And she came over to me and introduced herself.
And it was Rosemary Chalk.
And she was the executive secretary of the National Academy of Science.
And she said that she wanted to take me to lunch.
So we went to lunch and she started talking to me.
She's saying that, oh, you know, I know you because you did some of the Berrigan stuff.
And she was a big kind of Catholic person.
And so she said, and I looked at you up and I found out these other cases that you did, you know, the Pentagon Papers case and Watergate and all that.
And so she said, you must have always wanted to be a lawyer.
It just must come naturally to you.
I said, no, actually, I wanted to be an astronaut.
And she'd want to be an astronaut.
Why?
You know, and I told her, and she said, Really?
You know, you're so you're really interested in this UFO stuff?
And I said, Yeah.
She said, Look, you should meet my one of my best friends, Marsha Smith.
She's the head of the science and technology division at the Congressional Research Service, and she's been tasked to do this major study for the president.
You know, would you mind if she gives you a call?
And so that's how it happened.
Wow.
So Marsha Smith called me, and I went to lunch with her, and she said, asked me if I could get at the Vatican archives as a Jesuit council in Washington.
And probably a better odds.
Yeah, yeah.
It comes through the kitchen window.
Sure.
Yeah.
You know, so.
I went back and checked with the father Bill Davis, who was my Jesuit superior.
He checked with Terry and the other guys that were at the headquarters, and they ran it up the flagpole to the provincials, the 10 provincials of the Jesuit order in the United States.
And they agreed to have me do this.
That was very important because that, you know, that isn't, you're a person sort of under authority when you're in the Jesuit order.
And so I made sure that we got permission all the way up so I wouldn't run to some, you know, crossfire.
Jesuit Archives and Flags00:16:08
Sure.
Yeah.
So, the bottom line is that they all agreed for me to do it.
And so I did.
And in that context, I said, I want to get at the classified portions of Project Blue Book.
And she said, Oh, they'll never give us that.
And I said, Well, you've got to ask, you know, and tell them who it is and that I want to get this.
And so she said, Well, okay, we'll ask.
And then she got surprised.
And a couple of weeks later, she called me back and said, You know, I'll be darned.
You know, they said you could do it.
And we'll bring them to this new Madison building, this brand new building that just got.
Finished getting built actually in Washington.
There was nobody even in it.
You know, that you just go over there, bring two different photos, official photo IDs, and you can get to see these things.
And that's where I saw the photographs of a crash retrieval.
Wasn't any doubt about what it was.
It was absolutely photographs, you know, of crash retrieval.
Witchcraft?
Witchcraft?
I don't know.
Don't know.
I don't know.
Do you know where?
It was not Roswell because it was snow on the ground.
There was snow on the ground.
You could see in the photos that it had plowed through this field and it plowed up all the dirt in the snow.
And it was stuck in the side of this embankment, you know, that it was kind of like some big earthen bank that was all covered with snow.
It was stuck in the side of it.
So the bottom line is that I saw the photographs.
And so what I did is I saw that there were symbols actually on the bottom or along the bottom of the dome.
That was at the top of this.
It was a classic saucer, you know, with a dome on top and the big disc.
And so I actually traced every single one of the symbols, you know, traced them.
They told me I couldn't take any notes or anything.
So they took my briefcase away actually before I went in the room.
But I had put a yellow pad.
You smuggled it out.
Well, I'd be careful to use those terms.
But the bottom line is just for some reason, when I was, you know, when I showed up at the Madison building, that, as I recall, it was a Saturday morning.
There are these two suits guys out front of the place.
Like I said, there was nobody in the building.
It was completely empty because they'd just gotten through building it.
Yeah.
And so here are these two suits, these big no neck guys at the door, you know, and they weren't Air Force.
They weren't OSI guys.
You can tell OSI guys are different, you know.
These are kind of no neck dudes.
No badges?
No, no.
They just were there for my ID, not me for their ID.
I see, yeah.
And so I had to show them my ID, and they said, okay, now you go in and you just go down the hall.
To the left to that elevator there, and you go down to the basement and you'll see them down there.
So, as I got in the elevator and was going down, I just happened to think, I just opened up my briefcase, took out a yellow pad, and kind of put it under my arm, kind of lengthwise, just put it under my arm.
So, I get out of the elevator and I look down.
I can see the door open down the hall.
I see the light coming.
I can see these other two suits down there.
So, I go all the way down the hall right away.
I said, No, you got to turn over that briefcase.
You can't bring anything in there with you.
And they took it.
And they said, You can't take any notes or anything.
It's just so there you go.
They were kind of resenting.
You could tell there was this kind of resentfulness.
They didn't want to let you in.
Yeah, it didn't seem right that I was getting to see this.
They didn't seem to agree with it.
So I go in there, and here's this room, you know, about, I don't know, 20 feet wide, about maybe 10, 15 feet deep.
And there were these three big cardboard fold out.
Tables with all these little shoeboxes, these big, kind of big shoeboxes, kind of light off green government stuff like that.
And so the bottom line is, and they had these little ties on them, you know.
And it was a microfiche machine that was there.
So you had to open up the box and take out these little canisters and take the film and put it in the little microfiche machine.
Real high tech stuff.
Yeah.
And so that's how I found the photographs.
Wow.
So, but once I saw the symbols, I said, you know, I want to get this absolutely correct.
So, what I did is I took the little yellow pad on, I opened it up to the, and it was weird because I wasn't planning it in any kind of really, but I just opened it up and I slid the cardboard underneath there, the inside of the cardboard.
And then I traced exactly because I wanted to have the exact order that they were in, the exact shape that they were in.
I traced these, then I closed them up and I said, Okay, look, I better get out of here.
I don't know how long I would have been allowed to stay in there.
But as soon as I found the photographs and I traced them, I said, okay, I'm getting out of here.
You got what you needed.
So I put them all back and I put the little yellow pattern under my arm and I just walked right back out and I picked up my briefcase and started going down the hall.
And one of the guys goes, hey, hold it.
She and hold it.
And I turn and I said, what have you got there?
And I said, oh, it's my briefcase.
I just picked up my briefcase.
It was just there.
And he said, no, under your out wood.
And they both came over to me and they kind of, Uh, you know, one of them just yanked the yellow pad and he flipped through the pages, and of course, there's nothing on him, and so he handed it back to me like that.
So, wow!
So, so I so I bring the bring it all back over to the Jesuit headquarters, and I go into Father Davis, who was my superior, and I showed it to him.
Said, Look at this!
I said, And I've got absolute, I've seen the photos of this crash retrieval going on, and that's what he just he just leaned down and he kind of slid open the drawer on the desk, and he takes out this little eight and a half by 11.
Manila folder with a little clasp on it and handed it to me.
And so I opened up the clasp.
I pulled out this little eight and a half by 11 black and white glossy photo of a UFO.
Whoa.
In full flight.
Right.
And I look at this and I say, Where did you get this?
He said, My sister Dodie gave it to me.
And I'd met Dodie at their little family picnic during the summer.
So I knew her and her husband, Mike.
And I said, Well, where did Dodie get it?
She said, Well, Mike.
Gave it to her.
Mike was the head air traffic controller at the Seattle airport.
Whoa.
And I said, Well, where did Mike get it?
He said, Oh, his best friend gave it to him, who's a pilot that flies cargo all around up the Northwest.
And he took this with his little brownie camera out of the window of his airplane.
Oh, my God.
And he brings it, you know, at that time, you bring it to the drugstore to get your thing developed.
And when he got it back and he realized what he had, he didn't want to report it because he didn't want to lose his life.
Yeah.
So he brings it to his friend, who's the air traffic controller guy.
So, okay, now I've given it to you.
And Mike didn't want to get in any trouble.
So Mike takes it and gives it to Dodie and said, Here, give this to your brother.
He's a priest.
Wow.
The providence on that is wild.
Isn't that something?
It is something.
Yeah, it's definitely something.
Do you remember?
You've seen the craft, you've seen the photo.
Yes, um, can you describe both of these crafts?
What they kind of look like?
There's really one.
Well, the one there's a crash one that this was a crash retrieval.
This thing had obviously hit into this field, yeah, because it had plowed this creek.
Was it a disc?
Yeah, it was a big disc with the dome on top.
It was like a classic flags with a glass dome, like no, no, it was a metal dome.
And it was clearly to me like a metal craft.
Any panels or?
No.
Seamless.
No, seamless.
And there were U.S. Air Force guys all around it.
I could see them.
Oh, wow.
Because they were taking photographs of it.
And one of the guys actually had a movie camera.
And you could tell it had those two big canisters.
The lenses.
Oh, the canisters.
The big canisters.
The reels.
So it's like, I don't know, in the 1950s or late 50s, whatever that was.
But they were.
They were, and you could tell that they were like extremely excited.
It wasn't like this was one of ours and they were all worried about it.
No, yeah.
You could tell they were excited and they were taking photographs of this thing.
So that's why I saw it and I knew then.
Do you still have that drawing?
No.
It's such a bummer.
It was with the Jesuit files.
I put it in with the Jesuit files and we brought the Jesuit files with us out to California when we came there after the Iran Contra case and we stored them.
This is one of those.
Terrible stories.
Sure.
And we stored them at Riverside, where we were going to be staying temporarily.
And there was one of these big things, these big storms that they have in California, whatever they call them something.
The fire?
No, this was a huge rainstorm.
Oh, I see.
It rained for like 12 days in a row and it flooded up.
And the people down at the storage facility actually took it upon themselves to throw some stuff out.
And we didn't know exactly what they'd all thrown out until.
We all moved to Jackson Brown's ranch.
Jackson Brown invited us to stay at his ranch up in Santa Barbara.
And then we were teaching at the university because we were, this was just after the Iran Contra case.
And so that we were teaching all about what we discovered during the Iran Contra case and the off the shelf enterprise, all the assassination programs and everything.
So that, and so they got lost.
They had tossed it out.
I knew what they looked like.
And, you know, I've, I've free drawn them.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, sure.
Yeah, here, I'll show you.
We interrupt this broadcast to bring you a brief update.
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I'll show you that.
I don't know if they can.
We'll show it after.
Okay.
Well, here's the.
Could you draw what you saw in the picture?
Yeah.
Here's the big hillside.
And here's this field that's over here, right?
And here's the saucer.
The saucer is stuck.
In the embankment like this, right?
See?
Yeah.
And along the bottom of the.
And what I did is I blew it up with the little microfiche machine.
I could twist a little dial and get a bigger, bigger picture of it.
And so I could see that all along the bottom, right along the bottom of the disc, right?
The bottom of the dome.
The bottom of the dome, that I could see these symbols that were there.
And so.
Were they etched?
They were etched.
They were in the craft.
It looked like.
There was like a depth to the symbols.
Well, it was far away.
I mean, it was far away like this.
The photograph that was taken, you could see the guys running around here.
These two guys were taking photographs.
There was a guy over here that had the camera with the two little balls on the top of it.
And he was taking pictures of it.
And they were all around it.
And it was winter.
Because you can see all the snow on the ground, and they had these little fuzzy hoods on, those little guys.
So you could see it.
And so when I saw those symbols, I said, Oh, look, I've got to trace these exactly.
So I blew it up, and here, we'll do this little guy.
And so you have the dome like this, and the big craft like that, right?
And so they're all along here, and they look like this.
Yeah.
And they went all around the whole 180 degrees that I could see of it.
There were a whole sequence of them like this.
And that they were like different combinations of these straight lines like this, pointing in different directions from left to right and right to left.
And then they had these little dots here.
And some of them were like little long lines.
And others were these little horseshoe shaped kind of little U's like that.
And they just repeated like that.
And they went all around.
This looks a little bit what Bob Lazar described on the inside of the craft.
He had this panel which went transparent, and then there's these symbols that appeared.
Well, that's what it was.
That is.
And so I said, you know, I better, because I figured that what we could do, even though I can only see this half of them, that, you know, someday we were going to be able to figure out by putting them into a computer of some sort to figure out what that was.
Yeah.
And so I brought it back to the headquarters.
That is fascinating.
I have seen those symbols.
I don't know where, but I've got so many books in these old files, they always just come across my desk in old files.
You never know what's real and what isn't.
But this to me is very credible.
That's the real deal.
What was your feeling when you saw this?
Because that is, for some people, that would be enough for them to lose their minds.
Well, what it was was that I'd always assumed.
That there, you know, ever since I was really little and I first got to be outdoors at night when the stars would come out.
And when I realized what stars were, that they were like suns with planets.
Obviously, they must have planets going on because if they're like suns like ours, you know, they must have these planets and there's people probably on them, you know.
And I never thought much about what the people would be like.
I just thought it was fascinating the perspective of being down here.
Like sitting in the grass in my yard and looking up and seeing these stars and saying, Look at how weird it is of all of what we're doing down here, running around, not even paying attention to that, you know, in the in that, but doing these weird things to each other, you know, without taking into account, you know, the kind of perspective that this really brought to us.
And so I'd always been confident it was true.
Then when I, I guess, the Betty and Barney Hill thing, I was really fascinated by that and got a copy of that incident at Exeter and read it.
Fuller's thing, and I was always kind of keeping track of all of this.
And that I would always, whenever I was out at night, I would always kind of take time to step aside and just stop and skywatch, look up at the stars, and pick out a particular star.
And just, I realized when I was young that the stars pulse, you know, and the planets don't.
The planets just are just a beam of light like that.
That's how I could tell the difference.
I would pick out one star and it was just sort of pulsing.
And I always kind of had the sense of like, maybe, maybe that's like Morse code or something.
Maybe they're kind of sending little, little messages to us and we just don't, haven't kind of figured out how to interpret those things yet.
And so, so the bottom line is I'd always been that way.
And so when I saw this, when I saw this thing, I looked at it, my feeling was just like, yeah, there it is.
You know, there it is.
Agency Contact with Ron Hubbard00:14:19
There's one of them right there.
You know, and I'd seen almost any photograph or anything that I've ever seen that was purported to be one, I would find it and look at it and say, How are we doing on getting these things identified?
So when I saw this thing, and I said, Yeah, that's one of them right there.
And so, but it was the first time I'd seen the symbols like that.
I mean, it's something to see it in the setting that you saw it into.
I think that that makes it, you know, much more important as a, you know, it's official.
Exactly.
This was official.
These were the files.
This isn't in some obscure magazine or, you know, or these were the classified blue book stuff that they brought.
And so this is one of the first things that I told, what's his head at the Arrow office that, what's his name?
Sean Kirkpatrick.
Yeah, it was the first thing I told him.
I said, you know, I've seen it.
You know, I saw them direct, and this was a crash retrieval.
I said, you know, so there's a direct.
Not exactly eyewitness, but there's also video apparently.
I said they've got to have the photographs.
Yeah, and the videos.
And they've got to have the records of having brought them to Washington.
That's right.
They've got to have those records.
And so there's four guys.
Safer trail.
Because I saw the two guys at the front door and the two guys downstairs.
So there's records there.
They'll have all their reports.
So those are all there.
So when he published this thing saying they had no evidence of any sort, had no one had ever given them any information or evidence.
You know, and I told them all about Clifford Stone and all about my interviewing Clifford Stone, you know, for the disclosure project, and said, get all of his records, find out what his unit was.
So I laid the stuff out in detail to them, you know.
That's remarkable.
Yeah.
It's remarkable that it's so close yet so far.
Yeah.
You know, it's like right under their noses.
And yet we're acting like we're looking in space and at the bottom of the ocean.
And it's like, hey, it's in a shoebox somewhere under your feet.
Well, the thing that was weird about it is that Father Davis was so impressed by this that what he did is he talked to the other people at Jesuit headquarters, and we got permission to go to the Washington interreligious staff.
Council in Washington, D.C., that had representatives of the major 54 major religious denominations in the United States and made an official presentation to them about this, asking them to put together a task force so that we could start getting all the churches and synagogues and stuff together in temples to come to grips with this thing.
I remember Judy Stone was the head of that at the time, and she kind of stared around the room and said, Well, are there any other suggestions?
They just were not going anywhere near this.
But the Jesuits were all supportive of trying to get them to see.
Very intellectual, the Jesuits, though.
They're all very intelligent.
There's that.
Yeah, that they're able to perhaps fit that into their ontology.
Sure.
Whereas it's much harder for, I think, some other people.
Well, they're smart enough to alter their ontology.
Exactly.
And take it into account once they've got it.
Yeah.
How does this?
That's their job, is to reform the church.
You know, speaking of Jesuits and religion and UAPs, I mean, there's also, you know, this connection between not only Scientology and the UAP subject, but also Mormon connection as well in intelligence specifically.
You know, and we can get into each of those separately, but I'd like to start with the Mormons.
That was something we didn't talk about last night either, but I thought it was really interesting.
Because obviously, you have Dugway that's out there, which is Area 52, which is like, you know, seems to be one of the most interesting places, you know, save S4, perhaps.
But you also have BYU that's there.
You've got all this sort of, you know, and there's that long history of there was even a civil case against the FBI for, I think it was discrimination because they were only hiring Mormons at one point.
They were pretty close.
Yeah.
They were pretty close.
I actually did a case on that.
Really?
Yeah.
There was a Mormon guy who had been approached by the FBI.
No, he was approached by the CIA.
Actually, to plant false intelligence information with Russians.
Some Russians had approached him for some, I don't know exactly what he was doing, but he got approached.
And so the CIA approached him to salt in false information so they could track where that false information went.
Correct.
And so they could figure out the chain.
And so, and it turns out someone reported him to the FBI and the FBI arrested him.
All right.
And he went to his local bishop.
In the Mormon church and told him all about this.
And it was the Mormon bishop that turned on him.
Wow.
And actually is the guy who contacted the FBI on him when he told him about it.
And so I got contacted by some of the hierarchy in the Mormon church because I had done the cases.
I did the case for the Church of Scientology people who got subpoenaed in New York to be dragged into a grand jury up in New York.
And I. Was upset about the fact that the Justice Department was trying to compel them to reveal information about the internal workings of the church.
And so I went up and did the case to quash that subpoena.
And that's why I got asked eventually to be the lawyer for L. Ron Hubbard and his wife, Susan.
Anyway, long story.
We'll get into that after.
Yeah, yeah.
But so the bottom line Put a pin there.
Yeah, yeah.
But the bottom line is, so I had done that case.
And so that they contacted me to say, look, can't you make some kind of an argument that that was a violation of his priest penitent kind of confessional relationship with his bishop?
And that the FBI didn't have any right to do that.
What I did instead is I brought in a fellow who I'd also been approached by, a fellow named Ron Rewald.
Ron Rewald was a CIA guy who actually ran a hello phone base for the agency out of Hawaii that pretended to be a private investment firm.
And CIA guys would be given credentials being agents for his investment firm.
And they were running around all over Asia spying, you know.
And it's a funny story.
His brother comes walking into my office at Jesuit headquarters, pleading with me to do something to help him because he'd been arrested out in Hawaii.
And what had happened is that this holophone operation had been set up by the agency as a front for giving credentials, false credentials, to these alleged investment agents that he worked with, ran around spying on people in Asia.
And what happened is he only had six investors in his investment firm.
And one of them was the head of Six Pack, the Sixth Fleet, the Admiral.
One of them was the head of the CIA in Hawaii.
Another one was one of the major generals there.
He had these kind of select.
Group of hand picked government officials that he was benefiting by having this private investment firm as the front for these other guys.
And it turns out that he gets contacted by the agency and they said, you know, this is not good to have just these guys.
This is kind of suspicious.
You know, you ought to have more investors in this.
So he ends up putting an ad in the newspaper, in a Honolulu newspaper, advertising his private investment firm.
Guaranteeing you 100% return on your money every year, annually, right?
And the head of the bunco squad in the Honolulu Police Department, someone reports this to him.
So, look at what it is.
And so he drives up to this guy's estate, this Ron Rewald estate, and here are these Arabian horses racing in Lamborghini sports cars all over.
And so he says, this guy's a total fraud.
And he arrested him and brings him down and puts him in the slammer down.
And so he's freaking out around Rewald trying to tell him, say, look at, I can't tell you this, but I, I, Work for the agency.
This is an operation you need to contact.
Of course, the agency denied knowing anything about it.
Of course.
And so he's freaking out and he calls his brother to come to Hawaii to help him.
So his brother gets briefed in on this and he comes to me at Jesuit headquarters.
I don't know why exactly, but anyway, he ended up coming to me.
And I said, Look, I don't necessarily believe your brother, are you, that he's really running a legit hello phone place for the agency.
You're going to have to bring me some kind of documentation to this.
So he goes back and talks to his brother.
And he tells him where these documents are, and he brings them back to me.
And here they are.
They're copies of the Japanese blueprints for the bullet train that they'd heisted somewhere.
Also, all the stuff about Bogue Rights, you know, going into Laos and Cambodia looking for our POWs.
And it was all run by the agency.
And so I said, Oh, this is the real deal.
And so I started doing something to try to help him.
And I realized that when I got contacted by this, the Mormon, some of the Mormon leadership, because I was at Jesuit headquarters, right?
And so I said, Oh, what I can do is have this guy, Ron Rewald, flown in to the Eastern District of Virginia, which is the CIA court, the federal district court for the Eastern District.
Everybody knows this, the agency that kind of runs it.
And so I'd have him flown in and have him testify on behalf of the Mormon guy that they did the same thing to him, that he was a full agency guy and they lied and wouldn't acknowledge that he was there.
And so there was credible evidence to support the fact that what this other guy was saying was.
true and so in comes around rewalled And the two assistant U.S. attorneys show up opposing my being able to present him, asserting that it would reveal national security information.
And so the judge said, Oh, so that you're acknowledging then that Mr. McDowell is.
There we go.
And they said, No, no, we're not acknowledging that he really is a CIA person, but we're asserting national security.
Mr. Sheehan can't talk to him, he doesn't have an adequate security clearance.
And so the judge says to me, Mr. Sheehan, what kind of a security clearance would you like?
And I said, A Q clearance, Your Honor.
I'll take a Q clearance.
And he said, Good, you have it.
So I got issued a Q clearance by the Eastern District.
Not that it would have held up anywhere.
But I got to talk with him at great length about all the stuff that they were doing.
And that's how I got to meet Bo Grice, who was running those POW field.
But that's, I guess, how you found out that there was a long tie between recruiting Mormons.
That's right.
You know, part of that goes into their specific belief system as well, allows for life on other planets.
Yes, it does.
Not necessarily non human.
Well, because that's how it started.
I mean, that's how the Mormon church started these beings of light actually presenting Joseph Smith with these plaques, these plates that had all these writing and stuff on them.
Yeah.
And that said that they were seeding life on these other planets, human life.
Yeah.
So, you know, already in their own religious belief, they're already inclined to expand their universal or galactic awareness into other beings.
Secondly, they don't smoke, they don't drink, they don't swear.
They're all ready for the FBI.
They don't drink caffeine.
Yeah.
They don't party.
They're all ready for the FBI.
Yeah.
And lastly, collateral.
They have large families.
Yes.
And so you look at this and you're like, and I mean, You know, also ethnically speaking, they're all white guys.
And that's like, it's also the FBI is very happy with exactly.
And crew cuts.
Yeah.
They also have crew cuts.
Exactly.
All three letter agencies, I would say.
Well, the FBI, especially.
Specifically, FBI.
You can tell if he be, you know, right across the street.
Right.
You know, they fit the bills.
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they do.
So, you know, because I've heard.
Through reports that I've read, that there was like active recruiting at BYU and that the funnel to go into these three letter agencies was quite direct.
Like it was pretty, like you apply, you're in.
It was just like Yale with the agency.
Yeah.
You know, the Yaleys lean in heavy on the agency.
They tried some of the recruiting at Harvard, it didn't work as well.
But Yale is very responsive, Skull and Bones, especially.
Yeah, I see.
They're pre selected, you know?
Yeah.
So that's really interesting when you can have trustworthy, People like that work in those capacities around these secret, you know, deep underground military bases and makes it really interesting.
Now, transitioning into Scientology, you'd mentioned quickly in passing that you were offered to represent L. Ron Hubbard.
Yes.
Now, that's quite the opportunity.
Well, it's interesting.
Interreligious Staff Council00:02:34
The way that it happened is that when I came to Jesuit headquarters, They came up to Harvard Div School to ask me to come down to Washington to be legal counsel for the Jesuits.
And I had, when I arrived, one of the first things I did is I went over and saw Bob Dreinan.
Father Bob Dreinan was a Jesuit priest who was the congressman from Brookline outside of Boston.
And he was the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.
So I had to go over to see him on another thing.
We were opposing Senate Bill 1, which was this.
Big Senate bill that was prepared by Richard Nixon just after he came in.
And he'd had Rehnquist as a special assistant attorney general redraft the entire federal criminal code into this kind of totally reactionary, hardcore, sort of like Project 2025 back then, but to redraft the entire federal criminal code.
And so we were opposing that.
And we'd helped organize this coalition of 81 different federal organizations, citizens groups to oppose it.
So, I went over to see Bob Drynan as the head of the Judiciary Committee to get them to bottle up the Senate bill on the House side and just not let it even go to the floor.
Right.
And so, when I was there talking, I was saying, you know, why is it that, you know, down here in Washington, you know, you got the Greenpeace for all the environmentalists, you got the National Organization for Women, you got the ACLU.
Why don't the churches, you know, have some kind of organization, collective organization for dealing with public policy things?
Mm hmm.
You know, we've got some basic values, you know, human rights values, et cetera.
And he said, Oh, well, you know, that they're afraid of the church and state, you know, blending together.
And I said, Well, the fundamentalists aren't paying any attention to that.
You know, why aren't the liberals and progressives doing anything?
He said, Well, you know, that they're really leery about the Catholic Church because of the long history of the Catholic Church dominating in all of Western civilization for a thousand years, you know, and especially the Jesuits.
And so I said, Well, look, let me try to reach out to some of the folks.
To see if we can get past that.
And so I did.
I went and met with Rabbi David Saperstein at the Union of American Hebrew Congregation.
I met with Joe Elders over at the Methodists and met with Bob Elpern over at the Unitarians.
I went around to actually meet the people.
And so we organized a thing called the Washington Interreligious Staff Council.
And we put together this group that would meet once a month and we would discuss all the different public policy issues that were going on.
And we'd put together task forces.
We put together a task force on nuclear disarmament, a task force on more just economics.
We had these task forces.
And one of them was a task force on human rights and criminal justice.
And I chaired that for the country.
And so, one of the things I did is I wanted to have consultants come in.
Like ACLU and some others to be able to be in our meetings so we could talk with them.
And all of a sudden, I don't know about the third or fourth of these monthly meetings that we'd gotten organized, this young couple shows up and says that they're from the Institute for Human Rights.
I was going, Institute for Human Rights.
I've never even heard of that at all.
But they were extremely well dressed and very polite and everything.
And they started advocating that we do something about psychiatry and psychiatrists, that they were the bane of our existence and we ought to do something about making them illegal.
And I said, this is kind of a weird topic.
And then I checked out, and it turns out that the Church of Scientology was deep into opposing psychiatrists.
And so the next time the couple came over, I pulled them aside and I said, You guys are Scientologists, right?
And they were going, Well, no, I mean, individually, but that's not why I said, You don't have to do that to me.
I said, I'm very open minded.
And you guys are recognized by the IRS as a church.
It's okay with me.
Besides, I have just consulting groups.
So they were totally delighted that I was tolerant.
You weren't judgmental.
No, no.
So they were very happy about it.
And so they came, and then a couple months later, they asked to apply to become members of the Washington Interreligious Staff Council as a church.
And I said, Now that's a little more formal.
So I went and talked to Jim Hamilton, who was the head of the National Council of Churches, and he said, Absolutely not.
You know, we're not going to allow them in.
I said, Well, that's kind of a strange position to take.
You know, you're just kind of asking them out.
Have you done any research or anything on them?
And they said, No, but we know, you know, they're having a whole bad thing with the IRS.
IRS is trying to.
Take away their tax exemption.
I said, Well, I'm going to just let them stay as a consultant to our thing.
So they were very happy.
And then, I don't know, a couple of months later into the process, you know, I'm getting set to go out of town this one Friday morning.
And I stopped at a phone booth because we didn't have cell phones back then.
I'm older than I look.
Yes.
I didn't have cell phones when I was born.
We're good.
But you didn't have, we didn't have television.
Anyway, so the bottom line is so I call into the headquarters and I say, Is there anything going on that I need to do before?
And Bill David, Father David, said, Oh, I'm so glad.
He said, The Church of Scientology people have been calling the phones off the hooks all morning.
You know, the FBI has shown up at their place and they've chainsawed off their doors.
And it turns out the FBI showed up, chainsawed the doors off the headquarters in Washington, and contemporaneously sawed the doors off the headquarters in Los Angeles at the same time.
You know, and And I drove over there, and here's this big mass arrest wagon, you know, with all the antennas on, and they've got people, and they had rolled these Xerox machines into the headquarters, and they were Xeroxing every piece of paper in the entire place, right?
And so I said to the Guardian, the legal counsel for the Guardian's office, I said, you know, is there a warrant here somewhere?
And he said, well, that's the guy over there.
He's got the warrant.
So I go over and I confronted the guy.
He could look at the warrant.
And the warrant said, you know, that they're looking for.
Any evidence of electronic listening devices, and they go down through this whole thing and they get all the way to the bottom of the thing and say, and any evidence of any other potential violation of federal or state law.
I mean, it was an absolute general warrant.
I mean, you couldn't have drafted a more, you know, illegal, unconscious.
They'll take anything.
Overbroad anything you can find.
So I went over immediately over to Judge Green over in the federal district court because I was admitted there.
And got a restraining order against them and struck down the warrant and came right back and delivered it to the people.
And I got to write the actual order for the judge.
And it was demanding that they return all fingerprints off documents, any Xerox copies, any photographs they'd taken inside the facility.
It was just completely thorough.
So it just extracted every last thing out of the hands of the feds that had come in.
And so they were ecstatic there at the Church of Scientology, right?
And it was just two weeks later that the subpoenas were issued up in New York for the top 20 leaders of the Church of Scientology to come to a grand jury.
And I was totally offended at the fact that they were doing that.
So I went up and struck down that one too, you know, just as an ancillary thing.
And so that's when I got these guys showed up at my office at Jesuit headquarters saying that, you know, L. Ron Hubbard would like you to consider becoming a lawyer, the lawyer for him and his wife, Susan.
And I said, well, No, I said, as a condition precedent from even being willing to go meet with him, you know, I'd have to be given access to every single document anywhere in the world of the Church of Scientology to be able to review ahead of time, you know.
And I figured that's just not, that's a non starter, right?
Two weeks later, they come back and said, it's a deal, you know, that's Ron Hurw wants you to be the lawyer.
And so that they fly me down to the Blue Cube down in, where was it, in Florida.
Anyway, they fly me down there.
So I get a hold of Bill Taylor, who was my investigator at Lee Bailey's office.
And he's the president of the Florida Association of Professional Private Investigators.
So I bring him with me and we go to the Blue Cube down there in Florida.
So we go in and we come into this, they bring me up in this big room.
And one of them is the head of the guardian's office for the Church of Scientology for the country.
And they had the international guardian.
Of the Church of Scientology worldwide sitting there at the table.
And so he says to me, What's the first thing that you'd like to see?
And I said, I'd like, like I told you this the other night, I said, I'd like to see the file that you've got on me.
And the other guy from the U.S., I said, No, no, we don't.
We've got, we wouldn't.
And I said, Excuse me.
I said, Well, look, I fell off some melon wagon somewhere coming out of the country.
I said, You know, if you're asking me to be the lawyer for Ron Hubbard and you don't have any file on me, And the guy said, the international guy says, go get him the file.
So he goes and brings me the file.
So I leave through the whole thing.
Look, I'm showing it to Bill Taylor.
And, you know, he's got pictures of me in restaurants and meetings and different things.
Recent pictures?
Yeah.
Yeah.
They were staking you out.
Yeah.
Had pictures of the blue flame that we drove Father Davis's little Ford Falcon that we drove.
It had the license plates on it and all that.
So then I said, okay, I just wanted to make sure it was accurate.
You know, and so then the international guardian said, so what is it you want to see now?
And I said, I want to see the three most sensitive documents anywhere in the world, according to your opinion as the head guardian.
And he went, Oh, shit.
Oh, no.
Yeah.
He said that?
He did.
Oh, shit.
And so he went off to get them.
He could have showed you anything.
Yeah, he could have.
He could have.
But on the other hand, then I wouldn't have even considered being the lawyer.
Yeah.
So that's how I got shown the.
The first one, it was all about Ingo Swan's reports.
Ingo was a high level clear of the Church of Scientology, and he was one of the main remote viewers in the remote viewing program with the help put off Stargate.
Yeah, SRI.
Help put off and Russell Targ.
Russ Targ.
And so they had all the reports there.
And it turns out that Ingo Swan was filing reports with the Guardian's office on this top secret, you know, Office of Naval Intelligence operation they had going on of the remote viewing because they were trying to figure out how to communicate with our nuclear submarines.
So, because the submarines would have to come to the surface and put up an antenna to have any communication and then they'd get picked up by the Russian satellites.
Wow.
So, that was the goal there.
That was how it started.
Oh, yeah.
That's right.
What they had done, what they had done, I saw in the file, they had gotten this mother rabbit in her litter and they had taken the mother rabbit and they'd had her there in Connecticut.
One of the big naval bases there, and in this little cage, and they hooked her all up to these electroencephalograms, electrocardiograms, and everything.
And they took the little members of their litter and they put them in these different nuclear submarines around the world.
And then at an absolute designated second, you know, on these like atomic clocks, they would start torturing one of the little babies.
And instantaneously, the brainwaves in the mother would start freaking out.
Whoa.
And going all off the thing, and she started banging around inside the cage trying to figure out what to do to how to get to go.
And so they realized that there was something that was going on here that enabled the baby rabbit and the mother to have this kind of communication that was like instantaneous.
Whoa.
And so that's how they started.
That's how the program started of saying that there's something going on, there's some phenomenon here pursuant to which these mammals can do this.
And so that's how the thing started.
And it was all in the files.
Survival again.
Yeah, yeah.
And so I started looking through this stuff.
And then Ingo Swan was filing these reports.
And they filed this report about this one fellow named Pat Price, who was there.
And it had the details of this challenge that they gave to him to try to remote view a particular place in real time.
And he did.
And he said, okay, I can see where.
Of what the place is here.
They gave him the longitude and latitude, right?
And so he starts saying it's a, some kind of a facility.
It's got like a big fence with razor wire at the top of it, and this would be kind of no man's land around it.
And Russ Targ was kind of processing him through this thing.
He said, Okay, can you go on the other side of the fence?
Can you see any?
Can you get over to the other side of the fence?
And he said, Okay, okay, okay, I'm over on the other side of the fence now.
He said, Can you go up to the front door of the place?
And he said, Okay, I can, yeah, I can see over there.
I'm in front of the door.
He said, Can you go through the door?
And he said, Okay, yeah, I can see what's on the other side of the door.
I can go over to the other side of the door.
And they said, What do you see?
He said, I can see this big hall.
And there's these three doors on the right and two doors on the left.
And he said, Okay, now go down to the center door on the left.
He said, Okay, I'm down there by the door.
I said, Can you see what's inside the room?
He said, Okay, yeah, there's this big table and desk and stuff.
And there's a big file cabinet in the right corner.
They said, Go over to the file cabinet.
Now, second drawer.
Uh, the first file, can you read what's in the file?
And he read off to them what was in the file.
And it turns out this was a highly secret CIA base out there around Washington.
And so they could confirm that he had accurately read the content of the file.
Wow.
Okay.
And that's this is this is there right in the file in front of me.
Uh, and so I was saying, wow, that's something.
Uh, and uh, and I said, and the Pat Price was so good.
That's what they could do then is they could just show him the photograph of a boomer class Russian nuclear submarine.
And then he could find it.
Right down to the minute and second longitude and latitude of where it was and the depth where it was in the ocean.
Yeah.
And he did it.
And the first time that he did it and located this, this guy, there was a UFO hovering right over the top of where the submarine was and following it around.
And it was there in the file.
And he remote viewed the UFO?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it was all there.
And, uh, And so then I started talking later with the guy, but then they showed me another file that showed this thing that I told you about that made me not.
I said, I'm not going to have anything to do with this.
And I just refused to work with them anymore.
But they tried to talk me into doing it still.
There was the other thing with the radar.
It wasn't radar, it was a thing that Pat Price did.
It was a center in Canada.
It was in south central Canada, just across the border, north of the peninsula, Michigan.
And it was this little, it was like a little mini observatory, a little dome building.
And it had these big antennae on top of it, these radar dishes, these broadcast dishes.
And they brought Pat Price there and they put this helmet on him in this chair.
And they put this helmet on him and had him just concentrate on sending this message out.
Telepathically.
And then they turned the little antenna or the domes or the dishes down onto the peninsula of Michigan.
And he kept broadcasting, saying, Here, file your next federal income tax forms in this little post office box in this little tiny town in West Virginia.
And like 80% of all the people did it.
And so that they've got this capacity.
They've got that capacity.
That's mind control.
Yeah.
That's, that's not, it's mind control on a massive scale.
Yeah.
It's, yeah, massive, massive scale.
It's like a neuro linguistic programming, like, but for, for like a whole slew of people all at one time.
But it's not even linguistic.
No.
It's just neural programming.
Neural programming.
Uh, and, uh, and so that, so I, uh, uh, when I saw the third program they had that I refused to participate with, so I ended up that, uh, that, The fellow who's still legal counsel, main legal counsel for the Church of Scientology, was there.
And they were trying to talk me into it.
I kept asking more questions about it.
And what it was is that the Church of Scientology believes that there's a major confrontation going on between reptilian extraterrestrial species from Zeta Reticuli and the people from the Pleiades.
And that the Pleiades are the good guys that look just like us.
They're like Homo sapiens.
They're these reptilians.
And the reptilians are trying to take over our planet.
And that they've struck a deal with an element inside our United States intelligence and defense infrastructure.
And that they're engaged in trying to transform the climate of our planet to turn the heat up on our planet and have it be more jungly and hot.
And stuff because the reptilian people want to be able to enjoy the warmth, yeah.
Uh, and uh, in that they believe that uh, that they are uh, assigned or they've taken upon themselves the assignment to stop this horrible thing from happening.
Uh, that they're on the side of the Palladians and that they're opposed to the reptilians and they're opposed to this deep national security state here.
Who is this?
This is the Church of Scientology, Church of Scientologists, yeah.
And they they believe that they're they're entitled to all the same.
Sovereign immunity of any nation state, claiming they are entitled to at least the same status that the Catholic Church has.
And their goal is to help the Pleiadians.
So, what's interesting is to protect our planet against being invaded and occupied by the reptilians.
That's the bottom line.
It's wild.
Where they're at.
I'm reading a file right now.
Have you ever heard of the Lacerda files?
Lacerda.
Yeah.
Not the circle.
I've heard of the Lacerda.
No.
So, Lacerda is apparently.
In 1999, this man who remains anonymous met with a reptilian.
And who calls herself Lacerda?
She's like, you can't pronounce my name.
It's like a bunch of hissing and whatever.
But she meets with him in her true shape or form or whatever and fills him in through this document.
They met twice.
I'm reading, I've read through, you know, the part one of it.
And she's basically filling them in on the history of the reptilian and what happened on the planet.
And so basically, it's funny that you say like these humanoid looking Pleiadians.
Because according to Lacerda, those are the bad guys.
Yes.
And she says they're very conniving because they look like us.
But here's okay.
So, in a nutshell, 65 or like 100 million years ago, whatever it was, this planet had nothing really going for it.
And there were the Saurians, as she called them, like dinosaurs were here.
And intelligent life naturally evolved into what she called like the iguanodons, the ones with the thumbs.
She's like, those were actually intelligent beings and like they lived here, whatever.
But then there was a war being fought between these humanoids and these other reptilians.
Now, they don't know exactly where they're from.
They think possibly a separate universe, even.
But they came here and they were fighting for this planet.
One of them was fighting for resources and the other one was fighting for what I think we refer to them as the Elohim or like Elohim.
Yeah, exactly.
Elohim.
Yeah.
And so.
Basically, the Elohim were coming here to manipulate these monkeys that were hopping around in trees, and the reptilians were already living here underground and everything else.
It was their planet.
And then the Elohim came here, manipulated the monkeys to turn them into humans so that they could mine the planet for them and act as their slaves.
That thing, the gold thing.
Yeah, gold and copper as well, they said.
So, anyways, they ended up leaving for whatever reason it was.
And the reptilians were living, were kind of like being forced underground because of these others, but they were like, this is our planet.
We were here first.
And so they were just trying to defend their planet.
And what happened is in the Bible, they wrote the Elohim and all of these human-looking creatures in as angels because the Elohim would start psyoping humans and telling them the reptilians are evil.
We're good.
We're here to help you.
And when in fact, as the reptilians that were good and they weren't interfering with us at all and they were trying to be peaceful.
So it's really interesting to hear that song.
They're, they're, see, I mean, that's one of the many challenges that we have in the whole UFO investigation and community because people get extremely creative.
Yeah.
Down into detail.
I mean, look at the people with Star Trek.
I mean, they're people who basically even believe Star Trek is true.
Yeah, they built a universe.
Yeah.
And they, they know all the different names of everybody, they know all the different planets, they know all the different series, you know, and that they, like, they've got no life.
Yeah.
And they live in this complete fictional construct of some sort.
And now, with the games that they have, the computer games, they're people that are just their whole life is made up of playing these games.
Yeah.
And they've somehow despaired, I think, of the legitimacy of truth, you know, and the importance of truth because they've despaired of being able to trust any people in positions of authority because the people in positions of authority have been so disgusted.
Credited.
I'm afraid I have to take some credit for that over the years, you know, because I thought that it was not good to have people just blindly believing whatever the authorities told us.
You know, I took the Constitution seriously that, you know, don't blindly trust the government, you know, challenge them, you know, make sure they prove what they're doing.
And if they're doing things incorrectly, correct those things.
In some people, I think, in kind of a reductionist mindset, the minute they can't have absolute confidence in what the government says, they have none at all.
Hmm.
And the minute that you point out that there's some pretty nefarious things going on with the government and you try to mobilize them to cure those things, they just throw in the towel and say, I don't believe in any more.
But when you find people spending entire weekends sitting watching men knock a little ball as far as they can and knock it into a hole, and they spend millions of dollars watching that stuff and listening to that, or chasing a football up and down the field.
Or, you know, basketball bangety bangety bang and stick it in the hoop.
You know, they've, they've, what they've done is they've substituted some kind of, you know, constricted realm of absolute attention that they can pay to something where you get winners and losers in a dialectical dynamic that is somehow energizing and it provides some kind of a sense of purpose or value to their lives.
Some of them are just these fanatical.
I mean, take a look at the Los Angeles Raiders.
Fans who dress up in these crazy Montreal Canadiens.
We've got some wild fans here too.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, they've substituted really trying to pay attention to anything really important in the world.
Because they're despairing of being able to trust the people and the authorities.
Right.
So that they've attached themselves to this other completely artificial binary world.
Yeah.
And meanwhile, you know, 10 million people a year starve to death on the planet.
You know, millions of others die of diseases that we've known the cure for for 100 years.
And the people aren't paying any attention to that at all.
They've been burnt before, and that's as far as they're willing to go.
And so that we have this important responsibility to try to.
Re establish legitimacy in the if we believe that there are some legitimate institutions that can be helpful to people collectively, our collective decision making as a human family.
You know, that we have to try to resuscitate some trust in the institutions, even though, you know, I found it fairly simple early on just to take a kind of just go after them attitude.
You know, find out what they're doing wrong, go after them, bring them into court.
You know, but all the time I was.
Attempting to prove that the judicial system could work.
Yeah.
You know, so therefore that we can, we can, you know, use the proper channels, get our government back in tune.
Yeah.
As I said, I started out thinking I just had to kind of help retune the government to be doing what it's supposed to be doing.
But the real problem is that I have discovered that, you know, that our country had been captured by this national security element that was directly linked with corporate power and private greed.
And I can see where people would almost despair of being able to break that hold, you know, and also chide us for only being able to get partial victories each time.
You know, that we can get them to stop doing like the enterprise, we can get them to stop, you know, shipping weapons to the government, you know, the Contra forces against the Nicaraguan government, you know, or we can get them to stop the heroin smuggling coming out of Southeast Asia into Havana, you know, with Batista, you know.
But the bottom line is that they still keep on coming.
And so a lot of the young people just give up on that.
Naturally.
And so this issue here with the UFO stuff and the extraterrestrial civilization, I go all the way back to when I was seven years old of realizing that the kind of things that we're doing to ourselves here.
Are so incompatible and inconsistent with the larger perspective that if we could just get people to shift over to this larger perspective and really understand where we really are in the universe,
that hopefully we could atrophy some of this desire to engage in these completely false dialectics against each other and trying to find meaning out of vanquishing some ultimate other and get into a much more collegial collective.
Consciousness of doing good for our people.
And I'm hoping that we can do that.
I think that this particular subject, in addition to the original, just complete awesome effect that it had on me, to understand kind of a practical application of this, to be able to make an argument to people look at this is a really practical program that we're engaged in here, trying to elevate the consciousness of our human family so that we can stop.
Threatening to destroy ourselves with thermonuclear weapons or destroy our planet by contaminating it with chemicals, pouring chemicals into the atmosphere and into the rivers.
That we ought to be able to solve these problems if we have a more expansive perspective.
And that's why it's so important to really come to understand what the agenda is of the extraterrestrial beings.
If there's any truth at all in these other LARPs or stories or nightmare stories.
You know, if there's a bad guy, you know, species that's trying to come in and take over our planet, we need to know that.
Yeah.
You know, or if there's some kind of confrontation between some good guys and bad guys in outer space and they're struggling over what's going to happen to our planet, we need to know that.
Yeah.
You know, how do you discern as well as a lower, you know, species in, in, you know, we're, we're pretty much the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to, you know, I would suspect, I don't know this, but I mean, when, you know, when, when you witness these feats of, Incredible magic that we see, you know, with these creatures, you assume that they're so much more intelligent and have access to so much more of the quantum field than we do,
that they're able to pretty much manipulate us in any way, right?
So being.
Being benevolent or seeming benevolent shouldn't be that hard to convince us.
You know what I mean?
It shouldn't be, it's not going to be that difficult if they wanted to deceive us.
It shouldn't be that difficult for them.
You know, and I always hold that position.
You know, you talked about John Mack.
He had much more of a positive outlook for the NHI.
John did.
And then David Jacobs, you know, had much more of like, no, they're deceiving.
And, you know, the truth is, it could be both.
It could be a spectrum.
There could be many.
Different types of NHI and all this.
I often think, like, when I have this example, like, if my water bottle started speaking to me right now, if it grew a mouth and just started speaking to me, and once I get over the fact that I'm not having a psychotic break or hallucinating and that this was real, I would probably be inclined to believe everything it says.
Yeah, I hear you.
Simply on the fact that it's proven to me that on some level my reality is a lie.
It's already blown out your ontological.
Correct.
And it's created a new reality, a reality.
It's a very dangerous situation.
Yeah.
And so I must be cautious in listening to anything that it says because at this point, I'm very vulnerable and I'm very capable.
And that's sort of what I see happening with a lot of these prophetic messages or a lot of these communications with NHI, with a lot of abductees specifically, is that they're given this message of, oh, the world's going to blow up if you don't do something.
And I'm always struggling with that because I'm like, what the fuck?
What the hell do you want me to do?
Well, the advantage that I've taken on is that, you know, if what it is that they're advocating we do, such as stop polluting our planet or stop threatening to blow the whole planet up to smithereens, I mean, it's hard to find a downside to that, except they do.
I mean, I know that the people in the national security state say, oh, well, you look, they're trying to talk us out of using our nuclear weapons because our nuclear weapons can be used against them.
And so they're trying to get us to voluntarily disarm.
So they've already gotten out ahead of that one.
Yeah.
You know, But the fact of the matter is that the nuclear weapons don't make any sense anyway.
I mean, we all know that.
I mean, and as long as we could get some kind of mutual stand down on that, of course, that's what John Kennedy was attempting to do with Khrushchev in 1963.
You know, after the Cuban Missile Crisis, they were actually engaged in the process of trying to figure out how to disassemble the actual nuclear warheads in both nuclear arsenals and destroy them to get rid of this thing once and for all.
You know, but we have to get back to that.
And it does, if conceivably, you know, the nuclear weapons are the only mechanism that we would have that could really defend ourselves against an invasion, this would be part of their agenda to do that.
And so that's a major risk in and of itself.
But I mean, the risk of our own self destruction with the thermonuclear weapons is probably a little more immediate.
Probably, yeah, more immediate.
Yeah, that one we got a pretty good grip on.
We know that one's true.
The other one we don't, uh, and so that uh, I've been devoted my whole professional life to trying to support the disassembly and destruction of all of the nuclear warheads on the planet.
And now that doesn't destroy the technology and the knowledge to know how to do it again if you want to, sure, yeah.
Uh, so it doesn't cure the problem, but it can definitely eliminate the immediate threat of our going to that, yeah.
There is something to the idea that, in order to get to that next level, we have to cooperate.
And that's just plain as day.
We have this unfortunate track record of coming up with the greatest technology through the most violent atrocities.
That's our track record.
How do we come up with the best technology?
We literally have to kill each other and be in a position of survival where we, through pressure, dig into our greatest intellectual resources.
Exactly.
And there's part of me that feels like, man, this would be much easier if we just work together.
Like, I mean, you could probably achieve that even quicker.
And when you look at the Fermi paradox or that sort of breaching this level of intelligence in order to get to that next level, like, first we got to get off the planet and then we got to get.
To that next level, we got to get before the planet dies.
Like, we're in this small little pocket.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel like any civilization who has ever broadened their reach outside of their own solar system had to have worked together to get there.
I can't believe that there's war going on in these places.
Meanwhile, they're also leaving the planet and exploring the universe.
Like, I mean, that seems to be.
To me, anyways, fundamental in order to, you know, whether it's seeding life across the universe or whether it's just visiting other, you know, galaxies, I think you would have to come to that point in order to make it.
And I think most planets probably end up destroying themselves before they get there.
Yeah.
It's one of the first questions that you would want to ask.
And when John Mack and I back in, must have been 1996, 97 or so, that we had the big confrontation with Harvard throughout 94 and into 95.
It was almost, 16, 18 months we were doing that.
But then when we started working at the peer group, the Project for Extraordinary Experience Research, we were working at trying to figure out this new paradigm thing.
And we were trying to develop a citizen diplomacy corps.
I mentioned to you the other night that people who seem to be repeated abductees, that we thought that, look, as long as you're getting set to have to have this experience again, why don't we train you?
To do holotropic breathing so that you can relax and get centered when it starts to happen.
And then you can remain calm enough to kind of ask them questions and seek communication with them, you know, and not just get zapped and frozen and then be terrified, panic, you know.
And so that's what we were engaged in then.
And that I think that an active citizen movement of people unconnected to the national security state.
Infrastructure, reaching out to establish direct communication with the beings.
We now know that mental telepathy is real.
We know that they use this and we know that we can communicate with them on it.
If we could reach past the national security state strictures and have direct citizen to citizen communication with these beings and try to establish a peaceful, positive, and productive relationship with them.
I know this freaks out the national security state people because whether they're conscious of it all the time or not, and I've discovered they're more conscious of it than I had originally suspected, that they think that their mission is to basically be able to apply military force and the threat of military force to maintain our continued privileged access to the strategic raw materials of the planet for the benefit of our major corporations,
which is the actual wording of the document, the 1992 United States Defense Department Policy Planning Guidance document.
That was promulgated immediately after we were involved in talking to Gorbachev to step back out of the Cold War.
The Jesuit office was, we were actually in direct communication with Gorbachev.
And it was, I should probably tell you the story, it's because a lot of people don't know about it, you know, that, let's see how this went.
I had in our Jesuit headquarters office, we had succeeded, first of all, And I was initiated the position that to be in possession of nuclear weapons was itself a mortal sin because the nuclear weapons were designed intrinsically to annihilate civilian populations.
And it's a complete violation of the just war theory that you cannot make war on the civilian population of your adversary.
Okay.
And so, therefore, the mere possession of them was a mortal sin.
We got the Jesuit headquarters to take that position.
Okay.
And then we leaned in on the U.S. Catholic Conference of Bishops to take that position.
Not an easy task.
I had one of my classmates from Harvard Divinity School who worked under me at the Jesuit headquarters, Dr. Jim Garrison, actually, James Garrison.
And he worked at meeting with the different Catholic bishops to get them to come on board, kind of shamed them one at a time.
Into having to agree that this was the position we should take.
So we got them to take the position.
Then we got the National Board of Homeland Ministry of the National Methodist Church to take the same position.
Okay.
So then what we were going to do is move from there to try to get all of the 54 major denominations through the Washington Interreligious Staff Council to take a position that we wanted our United States government to unilaterally cut back on.
Disassemble and destroy 10% of our nuclear warheads, but that we were going to have to get Russia to respond.
So we could begin.
This was when the SALT talks were going on, the strategic arms limitations talks.
And all they were doing under the SALT talks, this is like 1979, 1980, that all they were doing is agreeing between Russia and the United States to build fewer more than they were planning to make.
So instead of making 100 new nuclear missiles, they'd make only 50.
And you say, well, that's not going in the right direction.
So, what we got to do is try to reverse that process.
So, we said, look, if we could mobilize all 54 of our major religious denominations and all of our citizens to demand a 10% cutback in our nuclear warheads.
If we could get the Soviet Union to respond, we could begin that process.
And over a 10 year period, if we could do that 10% each year, we could get rid of them in 10 years.
So that was the plan that we were involved in.
And Dr. He didn't have his PhD yet, but Jim Garrison was getting set to go leave my staff and go back to England to do his PhD under J.T. Robinson there at Cambridge University.
And so he went back there.
And when he arrived there, he went to see the chaplain at Cambridge University and said, You know, my name is Jim Garrison.
I just got through working with Dan Sheehan at the Jesuit headquarters.
You know, we're working at trying to get a 10% cutback in the U.S. missiles, warheads.
And I need to try to figure out how we can get to work with.
So, can you figure out how to help me?
Well, the guy was flabbergasted, right?
And said, Oh, well, I think that's above my pay grade here.
I'm the chaplain.
And he said, Well, but now you think of it, there's a guy here who's in residence now in Cambridge for this year who's actually writing a major book about nuclear weapons.
And it's Fritjof Capra, the guy that wrote the Tao of Physics.
Okay.
And he's writing a book advocating the elimination of nuclear weapons.
So I could introduce you to him.
So he did.
Okay, so Jim then goes to meet with Fritjof Capra and pitches the same thing to Fritjof.
We're trying to get the Soviet Union to cut back on it, blah, blah.
And Fritjof Capra says, Well, I don't know, but I was given a grant to write this book by Mrs. Rose Cruz, this woman who's here in England.
Her husband is a brigadier general and knows all the people on the National, the Royal Academy of Science and is this big heavyweight guy.
I'll introduce you to her.
And see if she can help.
So he goes and meets Mrs. Rose Cruz.
Her husband has passed away, but she introduces Jim to all the members of the Royal Academy of Science.
And he talks them, each of them, into writing a letter to their counterpart in the Soviet Academy of Science, right?
And so they all write a little personal letter of introduction to him.
And then Mrs. Rose Cruz agrees to give him a two year grant to go to the Soviet Union, right?
To figure out how to do it.
So he ends up writing his thesis.
And getting it published, then he gets, he does research and he gets a little book published called The Myth of the Soviet Threat.
So, you know, the Soviets aren't getting ready to attack us across the polar ice caps, you know, their ass is getting set to fall off.
You know, they can't even maintain their economy.
So he writes this book called The Myth of the Soviet Threat.
So he's got his book now published.
He's got the grant from Mrs. Rose Cruz and he's got all these letters of recommendation to the members of the Soviet Academy of Science.
And so he goes over, he calls me from Red Square.
Danny, I'm here.
I've got all this stuff ready.
I've got to go get an apartment, figure out.
So we're having these set of conversations, right?
And so what he does is goes one by one.
He starts going to these different members of the Soviet Academy of Science.
And finally, the first one says, I don't know what you're talking about.
I can't figure it out.
He finds one guy and he says, Look, I don't know what to do, but one of my good friends is the medical doctor for Brezhnev.
And Brezhnev has this terrible heart condition.
And so the doctor has to see him every day.
What I can do is I can give him your materials and And having him give these to Brezhnev, right?
And so he does that.
And so the medical doctor shows all the stuff to Brezhnev about what we want to do.
And Brezhnev has Jim Garrison, my best friend at Harvard Divinity School, who was on my staff at Jesuit headquarters, who's now over there, to meet with the doctor for Brezhnev.
And they together co produce a three hour documentary film on what would happen if one United States multi warheaded nuclear missile.
were to land dead center in the geographic center of the Soviet Union, of how all the water it would destroy and all the land that would be totally wiped out from any growing food.
And so they do that, right?
Then Brezhnev dies.
And then Andropov comes in.
And so Jimmy is meeting with Shevonazi, right?
Getting ready to try to set up a meeting to get to meet with Andropov, who's come in to try to pitch the same thing to him, right?
And Shevonazi says, no, no, no.
He says, you do not need to meet Andropov.
He says, he will not be here that long.
He said, Who you need to meet is Gorbachev.
Gorbachev, who is KGB, he is the KGB protege of Andrey.
He says, He will be president someday.
He's that secretary of agriculture, right?
In the party.
And so Jim sets up a meeting to meet with Gorbachev when he's still, and this is like 1980, 81, right?
And so he goes to the Kremlin to meet Gorbachev.
And he comes in, goes into the Kremlin.
I'm sitting at the Esalen Institute in one of the hot tubs, passing the joint back and forth with Jimmy.
He's telling me the story about how this happened, right?
So he says, So I go to the Kremlin, I go through these 10, 12 foot tall doors.
I go into this room with the Kremlin and we're sitting there.
And in comes Gorbachev.
And we sit down and I start telling him about, you know, my name is Jim Garrison.
Here's I'm Danny Sheen.
He's one of my best friends at Jesuit headquarters.
We're going to try to get a unilateral cutback on the 10% of the miss, but we've got to get you to respond to this.
And Gorbachev, who will talk English in private, but he won't talk it.
Publicly, but he said, The U.S. will never do this.
He said, They will never take the lead on this.
He said, Because they believe that they need to have the nuclear weapons.
He said, Not for us, China.
He said.
He said, they know that China can put a billion men into the field, as they proved in Korea.
Yeah.
He said, and so they know they can't take him on in a traditional war, which they're going to have to eventually.
He said, and so they can't, they can't, they don't want to get rid of the nuclear weapons.
He said, so I'm going to have to do this.
He said, so when I become president, I can take this initiative.
He said, but they will come for me in the night when I start doing this.
He said, so you have to agree to become the president of the Gorbachev Foundation.
And take this up with me to try to disarm the world of nuclear weapons.
And so that's how Jim Garrison became the president of the Gorbachev Foundation.
My best friend from Divinity School was my staff guy at Jesuit headquarters.
So they're the ones that, and of course they did.
They came for, people don't remember this.
Gorbachev got kidnapped and disappeared for like a whole week.
That's when Yeltsin came in, riding on the front of the tanks, and they came into Red Square and pushed back against that and made them release him.
And then Yeltsin ran for president and won.
And then Gorbachev and Jim Garrison and us decided we were going to start putting together a thing called the State of the World Forum at the end of the Cold War.
Because Gorbachev, before he was leaving, he was going to sign this release of all of the Soviet socialist republics, which he did on December 31st, 1991, and released all of them.
Right?
Our response.
This was President George Bush Sr., George H.W. Bush in 1991.
He'd been elected in 1988.
Remember?
He was vice president from 1980 to then 84, then from 84 to 88.
He runs for the presidency in 1988 and wins.
Okay, so he's there as president.
And in 1991, December 31st, what happens is the following Monday, George Bush Sr.'s Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney, you know, convenes a meeting in the West Wing of the White House with Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Fife, Scooter Libby, Richard Pearl, a bunch of the guys that are in the Defense Department with Cheney.
And they say, oh, look, this is.
Terrible.
We're going to have everybody rise up and say we're going to have to cut our military budget in half because we've been justifying for the last 75 years the fact that we'd have to spend $700 to $800 billion a year on our military defense because Russia is trying to take over the whole world.
And there's going to be a big push for us to have to cut back all of our.
So, what we need to do is lean in and ask to increase the military budget because we want to be able to establish full spectrum military dominance over the whole planet.
So that nobody can challenge us at all.
This is a unique opportunity in the last hundred years so that we can move in on this.
And so they put together this 1992 United States Defense Department policy planning guidance document proposing this top secret stuff, right?
They end up, that starts right the first Monday after December 31st of 1991.
So this is the new 1992 United States Defense Department policy planning guidance document, right?
And so they end up, as of April, They come out with this document and they make it available to some restricted number of people in the Pentagon and a few members of the cabinet.
Somebody leaks a copy of it to the Washington Post.
The Washington Post, on like April 10th of 1992, they come out with this scathing editorial against this, saying this is an absolutely wrong response to the step back that Gorbachev has done.
He said, you know, that this is like a return to gunboat diplomacy, which is not ironic.
Because that's exactly what it was.
Because this was the Soviet Union stepping back after the October 1917 revolution, where they rose up as a challenge to the people who had, at the end of World War I, had begun funding the rise of Hitler in Germany, which was Brown Brothers Harriman, which was, you know, George Herbert Walker and the guys, Brown Brothers Harriman,
who set up the Union Bank of New York and set up a subsidiary in the Netherlands.
Called the Bank of Shipping and Commerce, run by a guy by Fritz Theisen, funded the reconstruction of the entire international headquarters, the Third Reich.
We know about this at Jesuit headquarters.
So, this is in deep background of all the stuff that we know about.
And so, this complex question of how we deal with the national security state that's been set up by the United States and the response now that's now in Russia and in China that have got their same national security state.
Infrastructures, you know, all of whom know about the UFO stuff.
Yeah, of course.
I mean, and not only that, I mean, their presidents know about it way more than ours do.
Yeah.
And so the thing is that we, if the American citizens can organize and rise up, and the people of Canada can organize and rise up, and we can get the people in England and Five Eyes.
Yeah.
If we can get the people to rise up and say, look, we're going to reach out and establish direct communication.
Because we now know the secret about telepathic communication with these beings.
If we can reach out and convince these beings that we want to have a peaceful and productive relationship with them, but we want to make sure that they don't have any kind of a nefarious motive to be trying to exploit us or take advantage of us, we want to be able to do this.
And that's what the New Paradigm Institute is really all about.
And we're no pikers.
I mean, we've been involved in these things now for 50 years.
Yeah, that's the one thing that.
That I'm coming to realize as well as the more I find out about the new Paradigm Institute is, you know, that this isn't just some other ufology group that's interested in like the Pleiadian star system at all.
This is real.
You are probably the people that are the most involved with Congress, even currently in the current administration as well.
That's right.
I mean, this is bipartisan.
We've succeeded in establishing bipartisan.
Outreach to both political leaderships.
And with the new task force that has been put together with Congresswoman Luna, you're currently in conversations with them.
And I think that's just a wonderful thing for both people familiar with the UFO topic and people who aren't, for them to be familiar with it.
I think it's a great, great place because the UFO community is a bit of an echo chamber.
And we often forget that public perception of this is still in the early phases.
Yeah, that's right.
People aren't knowledgeable to this.
There's still a stigma, even though the stigma within the community is slowly dissipating.
But the public's perception of it, and so when people like yourself get involved, who's been around so many credible cases, and as I mentioned, some of the biggest cases in US history.
For someone of your stature to step in and collaborate with Congress.
I mean, it shows, it's a show of force, of will, and of, you know, this strive for humanity to want to essentially make contact.
That's right.
And develop a dialogue.
And if we can get the citizens, and we can, we know how to do it.
We know how to mobilize.
We have to educate.
We need Pat Price.
Yeah.
Well, we have Pat Price's around.
Yeah, sure.
We've got remote viewers and stuff that are working with us.
In that, you know, we were trying to maintain completely positive relations with both Republican and Democratic Party, people inside the administration, people even in the last administration, no matter what they think of each other, you know, because this is part of what we have to get over.
You know, we have to learn how to get past these kind of internally generated conflicts among ourselves in order to be trusted to have a meaningful, you know, alliance or relationship with the extraterrestrials.
So the New Paradigm Institute is setting up.
Citizens for Disclosure inside of each of the 435 congressional districts and a state level office in all 50 of the states in the United States.
We want to have them in Canada here.
We want to have one here in Montreal.
And that's why I've come to talk with you.
Actually, this is a real life event here, I want you to help facilitate getting the people here together to talk about this.
And on your show, you have this opportunity to reach out to everybody to bring these people on to talk about this and help educate the people and help get everybody that is listening to you.
To become citizens for disclosure.
They can be Canadians for disclosure, right?
And they can have these chapters.
And what we will do at the New Paradigm Institute, we've put in this huge computer system that we have now of every action where we can reach down and communicate individually with every one of the 435 congressional districts in each of the 50 states so that we can contact them and provide specific targeted information for them to give to their elected representative and what committees they're on.
And get the citizens to start becoming citizens instead of sitting back and just watching hockey games and in football games and, you know, uh, and uh, or you know, being on computer games, you know, get get involved in the big game.
This is the big game, this one, okay.
And so that we we want we want you to help become, you know, one of the leaders of a citizens for disclosure here in in Canada, uh, in your.
Provinces to have a province office of each one to have citizens for disclosure or Canadians for disclosure and reach out to your parliament and get them to pass a statute here like this.
Like we're, we're, we have succeeded in getting the United States Senate to pass this 64 page bill.
This is the Controlled Disclosure Act.
This is the shocking bill that we got past the United States Senate.
Republicans and Democrats alike came out of the Senate Intelligence Committee 17 to 0, the vote.
On this.
Wow.
Okay.
And we got of the 100 senators, we got 94 of the senators to vote for this.
Okay.
Went over to the House side.
If we can get this put onto the floor of the House of Representatives, that of the 435 people, we'll get 400 of them to vote for this.
And what this is putting together is putting together a process by means of which every single document that the United States government and every piece of evidence, physical evidence they've got, Pertaining to the UFO issue since January 1st of 1945 has to be publicly revealed to the National Archives.
Okay.
And then that National Archives is going to be a team, a nine person panel is going to be assigned by the president to review all of those documents and to make every single one of the documents that's more than 25 years old.
Publicly available.
Wow.
Okay.
And people are shocked to discover.
I mean, they're almost as shocked that we got this bill passed, is the fact that there are UFOs.
Yeah.
But we've gotten this passed.
It got stalled over on the House side.
We got 23 pages of these 64 pages passed, which mandate that they gather together all the information and prepare to give it over to the National Archives.
They're under orders to do this.
They have to have all that documentation put together by September of this year.
Mm hmm.
Okay, and have it made available.
But what we need to do is we need to get this nine person panel assigned to have full staff and funding, which is all proposing here $22 million to be given to the panel.
And this, we're going to get this passed again this year.
Mike Rounds is in favor of this.
This was actually sponsored not only by Schumer, who was the majority leader of the Senate at the time.
Yep.
But Mike Rounds and also by Rubio, Marco Rubio, who's now the Secretary of State.
Yeah.
Okay.
So we've got major support at the top ranks of both political parties in the Senate to get this passed again.
And Rounds has now assured us that he's going to introduce and get this passed again.
And we've also removed Turner, Michael Turner, who was the head of the Intelligence Committee in the House of Representatives, who happens to come from the 10th District of Ohio.
Where the Wright Patterson Air Force Base is, who was sticking his thumb in our eye to keep us from getting it to the floor.
He's the one that talked Mike Johnson, the erstwhile Speaker of the House, you know, to not put this on the floor because it would pass.
So we've now gotten rid of Turner.
Crenshaw's there now, who I think is going to be supportive of this bill.
People need to know what's happening historically.
This is going to blow everything out of the water once this gets passed.
That's right.
Like, well, I mean, as soon as the.
The mechanism starts, you know, working.
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, it's going to be a floodgate.
Yeah, once it starts, you know, this is why the aerospace corporations are fighting this so intensely because they want to get patents on this.
They want to get secret patents on all of this technology so that we will have to pay billions and trillions of dollars to them over the next hundred years to get access to what they think is their technology.
And this is not their technology.
This is technology that's been recovered from the crafts.
Okay.
And this needs to be made available to the people as a whole.
You know, that in the, the, the, whatever new inventions, sources of energy, techno, that this has to be made available for people around the world because we need to, we need to not have this pass through the lens of personal greed and profit, you know.
And so that that's, so this is, this is what's happening right now.
And that, so that if, if we can get, if we can get, People to be willing to become citizens for disclosure.
All they have to do is go to newparadigmenstitute.org.
And just sign up to be a member of the Citizens for Disclosure in your geographic area.
We will then get all the information to you for free about what are the juridical institutions in your area?
What province do you belong to?
What district are you in?
Who are your elected representatives that you need to go and talk to?
What are the newspapers that you can write a letter to the editor?
What are the local television channels that you can go on to?
You know, what are the podcasts that you want to come on to?
And what can you say?
Yeah.
And you need to know the information.
It's like homework.
But the reality is, this is something that 99% of the people, when you talk to them, once they grok the fact that this is true and they've gotten past that block, you know, that has been imposed on them by a major PSYOP operation that was going on.
Absolutely.
And, you know, in Richard Dolan, who wrote the UFOs in the National Security State, he's got the documents right there that he's extracted under the Freedom of Information Act.
This shows that this was a conscious psyops operation that was going on against the American people.
Yeah, against the American people to convince them that this isn't true and anybody who believes this is mentally ill.
And they've destroyed the lives of hundreds of people, you know, and ruined their careers and forced people into committing suicide.
They're in such despair over being blocked.
They're in their full professional career in the military, for example.
And they despair so much of the failure of our Constitution to get this information to our people that they give up on life.
And so we are now at a stage right now where we're going to be in the next four year term of President Trump.
We're going to get these statutes passed.
We're going to get these statutes passed right this year.
That our new Paradigm Institute is one of the groups that is going to be nominating people to this nine person panel.
So, we actually get to nominate people.
So, if people want to participate in that process, I mean, we're now they're going to freak out over in the Senate saying, Oh, a new paradigm is going to want to take a poll, you know, to see who they want to nominate.
We thought we could have some inside, you know, work.
But, you know, I want to have the people involved in this whole process, you know.
And hopefully, I'll be able to help show that the representatives don't have to be afraid of the people.
Yeah.
You know, they don't have to be afraid of the people that we're going to do kooky things.
Okay.
But at the same time, we have to show that we're not stupid.
We aren't going to sit around waiting for the same people who've been lying to us for 75 years to all of a sudden reform.
So we're going to be reaching out directly to the ET people through CE5s, you know, to sit and have conversations with them to try to solicit them coming to talk with us.
As silly as that sounds, it doesn't sound silly at all.
No, but that's what we're doing.
Yeah.
I think it's very noble and I think it takes a lot of guts.
On the contrary.
I think it takes way more courage to speak of this publicly in today's day and age.
I mean, it's so easy to come up with false information to discredit things.
It's very, very easy in the age of AI and everything else.
I know.
That's why, again, I think it's really important that you are here, that you're talking about this, because someone like you who's in it for the public's interest and that.
Has been clear by your record, by your incredible career.
It's been proven time and time again that you are fighting for transparency.
And that's something that I think everyone can get behind.
People are drawn to authenticity, they're drawn to vulnerability, even if they don't know it.
It's the reason they watch live streamers and it's the reason they watch quote unquote reality TV.
And people want to see people being vulnerable, they want to see them being open.
But it takes someone who's brave enough to be vulnerable first.
Right.
And then it takes someone even more brave to be vulnerable.
Second, it's that, like seeing someone on the dance floor.
The first person dancing is brave, but who's more brave is the second person who joins him.
Because the first person could just be insane, showing off.
But the second person, it takes a lot of courage there to step in.
But once you get the ball rolling, all of a sudden everyone's dancing.
And I think that's the goal to show strength within numbers.
Through these podcasts, these conversations, and these demonstrations that you're doing, I think is really important.
And part of the key is getting people to start to trust each other that have, for various silly reasons.
Well, I don't want to be demeaning, but for reasons that I think can be overcome, that they don't talk to each other, that they view themselves as adversaries.
They start to demonize the other side.
They try to figure out any one thing they've said that wasn't potentially correct and attacking them for it.
What we've got to do is demonstrate that we can overcome those kind of false dialectics among ourselves.
And then we merit attention from the ET people.
Say, oh, good.
The people are getting it now.
They're starting to come together to really come up with some intelligent protocols to govern their relationships with us and keep us to try to stop our UFOs from getting shot down by these national security state people.
Or hijacked or pulled in.
Yeah, or pulled in.
So that's so that just have people go to, if you will, newparadigmenstitute.org, sign up to become members of Citizens for Disclosure.
We'll get all the information to you for free, send you, answer your questions.
You know, we're, we're, and we're getting contributions, 501c3 tax exempt contributions.
So we can provide this stuff to you for free, you know, not charging anybody for it.
And, and this is, we're going to show that I think we can get this done.
Great.
And not a four year period.
Yeah, I'm willing to help in any capacity.
I think it's great.
And thank you for offering and coming here and presenting this.
Because I think, yeah, if I have a chance to make even a small difference, perhaps one that's greater than just even having a YouTube channel, which for me is just for fun almost, but it moves the needle, like it or not.
But this in a more official capacity, I think it would bring me great pleasure to take part in it.
So, yeah, definitely count me in.
Way cool.
Yeah.
I want to get to it.
So now you got questions.
That's your first question.
Okay, there's question number one.
Glad we got that out of the way.
I've got quite a few here, but I probably won't get to all of them.
It's up to you.
You've got as much time as you want.
All right.
I'm here.
Heck with it.
Let's go through the whole thing.
We did actually answer quite a few.
And we also have some questions from the interns, which we'll get to on this little ditty behind me.
Sure.
I got something.
Jesse turned me on to something.
Jesse Michaels, he said, ask one about the Al Stein alien interview.
No, that's the Oscar Wolf.
That's Oscar Wolf.
That's Oscar Wolf.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Because I was like, I was like, another one.
No, no, no, no.
That's Oscar Wolf.
Great.
If you had full authority to subpoena anyone or any person or any entity, who would it be?
Which entity or which person would you go after?
See who the first one would be that we would go after.
What you do is first, when you do the litigation, you go for the documents first.
Then you go for the people.
So, what we would do is we would go to subpoena the black budget documents, all the black budget documents for the past and all the current black budget documents.
These are the unacknowledged documents.
Special access programs.
Waved unacknowledged special access programs.
Okay.
And now there's a person that's coming on board now in the new administration who is going to have access through the Office of Management and Budget to the Black budget.
So those are the documents.
They want to have subpoena power to get all of those records.
You follow the money and track this down where that money has gone to, what private contractors have got it.
Know what they were covering.
And then you start to get into those private aerospace corporations and issue subpoenas to them to come in and provide the information that they're going to have.
That, you know, Lockheed Martin and Grumman, MITRE, Battelle, Raytheon.
You start going after those corporations and extracting those documents from them.
They're going to fight and scream and holler at this trade secrets and all that stuff about where we're going for them.
And if you get to the black budget, you can see the front end contracts.
You know, and what they were assigned to work on.
So that's so we go for the documents first.
Names come after.
Yeah.
Names come after.
Organically.
Yeah.
You follow the track.
You know, that's, you know, it's kind of what happened, didn't they?
Like the Wilson, during the Wilson Davis memo, I mean, that's something that you heard about too, whereas Admiral Wilson went in there and he was knocking on doors and he was like, is this stuff true or whatever?
And he was told by a private corporation guy that, like, yeah, in fact, they were audited or something.
And one of the people looking into these black Budgets saw something he shouldn't have, and they had to read him into the project.
And that's why they sort of upped their security in the amount of people that were read in after that.
That was almost certainly Ben Rice that he talked to over at Lockheed Martin, you know, because Ben Rice had talked to a number of people.
From his class that he graduated with about what they really had.
Wow.
And some of that leaked out.
So that's how we would go.
When you're really doing the practice of going after these things, you know enough.
You go for the documents first.
You go for the people that are in charge of the documents.
Then start pulling the names out of the documents.
And then you figure out who they're liaisoning with over inside the government.
And then you go for them.
And then you go up the chain.
Because you follow the money.
You automatically have paper trail.
That's right.
Right.
That is right.
So you have a fingerprint.
So that's the way that not only we would do it, that is the way we're going to do it.
Yeah.
Once we get the subpoena power, you know, and this task force doesn't have subpoena power now that James Comer has said that he will be willing to issue subpoenas to them.
They've only got six months at first, and we then have to get it renewed.
But we're going to go after, if we can get the panel assigned, the nine person panel.
They'll work in direct linkage with this task force over in the House.
And then the key will be to get funding.
If they get the $22 million to bring on staff, the key is they're going to have to have a really strong and aggressive general counsel to run that investigation.
Someone with a proven track record that they're not going to stop.
It makes it a lot easier once this gets passed as well, right?
That's right.
And what we want to do is we don't want to have it depend completely upon decisions that are made inside the executive branch.
You know, by either Trump himself or any of his cabinet members.
We want to have the Congress involved in it, you know.
So that people can have access to it.
That's right.
And one of the subpoena power in this particular bill, it's kind of an esoteric point, but the subpoena power that the nine person panel would have would have to go through the Justice Department.
That even though it's appointed by the president, but what they would do is then go to the attorney general.
To get the attorney general to file an application with the judicial branch to get the judicial branch to issue a subpoena so that if, in fact, anybody didn't comply with the subpoena, they could be held in contempt of court.
Right.
And arrested.
Okay.
Arrested.
Yeah.
And put in jail for contempt until they give them the documents.
Great.
So that we would have the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch all working together to get this done.
That's part of the genius of this particular bill.
And we've gotten assurances from rounds that I haven't talked to, what's this from South Dakota, Thune, who's the new majority leader in the Senate.
But I'm sure he's a company man for the Republican Party.
And so he'll go along with this too.
And I'm sure that Rubio is going to be supportive of it over in the State Department.
Tulsi Gabbard is going to be supportive of it over in the.
The director of national intelligence and Ratcliffe is going to be supportive of it, the head of the CIA.
So, we've gotten these people on board already over the period of time we've been working and get everybody going in the same direction and get Congress involved in it, the task force involved in it, the panel established, and then it's going to start coming loose.
Do you think there's ever been a time in history that we've been this close to such a big moment of disclosure?
No.
Is this unique?
This is the moment.
There wasn't.
Totally unique.
Because we did go through, I think, obviously not to this extent, but there have been steps in the past to.
Yeah, but they're all insider.
They're all insider.
For example, Hal Pulloff talks about the instance back under Bush W that they were all convened, that Jay Stratton called them all together.
There were about a dozen of the guys that were all on the inside on this thing, and they had this weekend long set of meetings.
Broke into small groups and all voted to say they tried to measure what the positives were of releasing the information and the negatives.
And much to their surprise, every single one of the little small groups came out to the negative that we weren't ready to release it.
And of course, the reason that we aren't ready is because they're still pretending it isn't true.
Right.
And so nobody's working on what do we do in light of the fact it's true because they're still being told it isn't true.
So they're not going to waste their time answering questions in the abstract.
So frustrating that that argument is still.
Yeah, still there.
Even being used and being bought by most everyone.
It is.
So, our job is to educate the people, and then the leaders are going to say, oh, rats, the people now know we've been outed.
We're going to have to do something.
Are you working or have you worked with anyone with direct contact with NHI that's had some ongoing contact with NHI?
Have you had any success in that?
Because you mentioned CD5.
They say they are.
They say they are.
I still need to vet them and we're going to put them on psychological stress evaluators.
Right.
We're going to run them on PSEs.
That's forthcoming?
Yes.
Yeah.
Because I'm not just going to take somebody's position saying, oh, I'm picking up messages of Mars on my moon.
Civilians?
Some of them.
Okay.
So some of them, some of them not civilians.
Some of them are civilians now.
Right.
But they weren't.
They had some type of clearance.
Yeah.
And so we have to also provide legal representation for them.
Do you?
If they get attacked.
Or are you able to say if these people, if their jobs had something to do with that?
Yeah.
They did.
Yeah.
So their supposed contact with NHI was part of their job.
They've been recruited.
To participate in setting up protocols for this honey trap operation.
Right, like Interloper.
Yeah.
Even though Lou talked about it in his book and sort of, well, that one didn't work.
Well, the fact is they have worked.
I suspected as much.
Yeah, they have worked.
And they've done them and they've actually captured craft pursuant to that program.
Kind of like what Jake Barber was a part of.
Well, Jake, but people don't quite get this, but Jake, I think if he's on the range, You know, the Northrop Grumman range.
Yeah.
And he's picking up craft from the range.
Those are not, you know, willy nilly crashes.
Those are not crashes of some UFO that's been kind of lured in.
These are in their possession already.
I see.
Okay.
So, this whole question of them luring them in and capturing them, which they purport to have done, it would seem to me that it wouldn't take long for the ET people to get on that.
Yeah.
Saying, you know, oh, it's those people again.
You know, stay away.
I want you to come in.
Yeah.
They aren't fish.
Yeah.
So, so, so, right.
You know, once they've shaken the hook, you know, they won't bite again, you know, so that, that, that, what we have to do is find people that are, that are trained at this and know what they're doing, uh, and, and set up a set of coordinated protocols for people to follow, you know, that, uh, but we don't, we don't want to overdo it.
We don't want to pretend like we're some centralized authorizing group.
Oh, you have an authorized chief.
We're not into that.
But what we want to do is get people that are responsible, that aren't going to get infiltrated, that aren't going to, you know, You know, be suckered into, you know, genuinely luring in one of these things than having somebody jump on you, you know, unbeknownst to knock the thing down.
You know, we have to be careful about this.
Is there anything in this protocol that.
That is new that you guys are trying out, or is that something you want to hold on to?
No, there are some very basic things that have been.
A meditative sort of?
Yeah, that's how it's experienced.
The access that most human beings have to this particular phenomenon is through what they call meditation.
But you have even transcendental meditation that is not sectarian, it's not Buddhist or Hindu or any of the other ones.
It's a particular exercise.
Uh, you know, and it's a scientific thing, you know, it's like doing push ups and growing muscles, yeah, you know, or lifting weights and bulking up.
You know, this is you're bulking up your capacity to actually have this kind of telepathic reach to communicate with beings.
And there are people that are very, very accomplished at this, you know, and so that we're in communication with them.
They've reached out to us that we have over 1500 volunteers now.
That have actually written to us, contacted us at the New Paradigm Institute, offering services of various kinds.
They're lawyers and professors at universities.
Some of them are remote viewers, some of them are experienced, past military people.
Abductees.
Yes.
We have a whole group of abductees.
We have a whole group of experiencer category of the people, which we're going to be organizing.
We're organizing the experiencers as an entire specialized.
Group of talent.
Are you in the process?
Is this like, are we still in the vetting process here?
Yes.
With all of these people?
Have there been any that have been vetted successfully that you're 100% certain of their ability or their story?
I'm not yet because I haven't put them on the PSEs.
I haven't put on the psychological stress evaluator.
Most of them view that as an insult.
I'd say, well, that's too bad for you.
Yeah.
You know, because I've seen the PSE work and so I know that it does.
And so we've got extremely expert.
Uh, PSC operators that can track the questions, you know, it's not just they have an original set of like 20 questions or 25 questions, and then once they can track, put the responses on, that's right, it's all vocal cord tensions.
And, and you know, that they've nobody's been able to train anybody to beat it, right?
So, we can, we're that's what we're going to be using.
That's a great amount of uh rigor, which is great to hear again, you know.
Um, there's people out there, what we want, we want no BS anymore, you know, and I'm sure.
A lot of those people who reached out to you, you know, even if they're not aware of it, it could be BS.
You know, sometimes we're easily tricked as well into thinking that there might be something more when it's a natural phenomenon or sleep paralysis or whatever it is.
We'll see.
Yeah, we'll see.
Yeah, because the key is to have civilian operated tests like this and vetting people.
And, you know, the problem with the national security state mentality is that the minute that they start discovering talent like this, they bring them in and put them under national security.
Restrictions and prohibitions and threaten them and everything else.
You know, so now you're one of us, you're on the inside, you can't talk to anybody about it, you have to lie to your neighbors.
That's right.
You know, we're not into that.
Yeah.
We're not into that.
The New Paradigm Institute is a completely different approach to this thing.
Yeah.
It seems like a breath of fresh air, especially considering like reaching NHI.
In my mind, there's two ways of going about it.
There's simulating war.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
Or there's like meditation, and it's like an equal and opposite, probably.
You know, lure.
Yeah.
Lure.
Exactly.
Because I'm sure they both work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm sure, you know, the military is, you know, much more obviously prepared and gung ho about creating a war scenario.
And I'm sure a lot of soldiers out there probably, you know, would have a much better time in that scenario because that's what they're trained for and kind of what they, you know, hope to get into a lot of them.
Except for after they're.
Career.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But a lot of times that's, you know, like these scenarios and stuff is exciting and, you know, this and that.
And there's money and there's things that get to blow up and like it's all cool.
But also, like, what are we doing here?
Yeah.
What are we signaling?
See, look at this that we're in the next four year period, we're getting set to lay the groundwork for establishing the protocols that are going to govern our relationship with this extraterrestrial civilization for the next 10,000 years.
I mean, people in the future are going to look back on this conversation today and others that are taking place now during this period of time as to how did this happen?
How did we succeed in establishing a positive and constructive, mutually beneficial relationship with this civilization or not?
Hmm.
Worth a shot.
You know?
And so that's what we're in.
People aren't used to.
Being part of history, you know, that I've just been very, very fortunate.
People aren't used to being part of history is a wild thing.
They're just not to contemplate.
They're just not.
And in that they freak out, you know, over being even near a celebrity.
Yeah.
And the problem is they've been trained to, you know, keep their place like that.
Yeah.
You know, but the fact is, the people that are now alive are given the opportunity to participate in this.
Absolute watershed event of history.
Okay.
And they can be part of the history that is getting set to be written.
Okay.
And I know they're not used to it, but they will get used to it.
You know, is there, do you, because like, I mean, I, you know, when I post these videos and people start commenting and some people seem to vocalize a bit of hesitancy or at least the, they advise to practice a bit of restraint when trying to communicate with NHI because Because they say you don't know what it is you're communicating with.
Are you saying everybody should just try in their own right to do this?
No, I'd be careful.
A lot of this, let's back up a little bit.
Sure.
Reality that is being revealed to us in this process is that there is a field of possibilities that we're bathed in.
In the choices that you make in the next microsecond, into what they call collapsing the wave function of all the different opportunities and directing your intention into the field to collapse the wave field of.
Probabilities and possibilities into a particular certainty is how reality happens.
Okay.
And so, if you bring to this experience a fear, a concern that, you know, that these are diabolical entities out there or demons or satanic beings, something like that, if you do that, you're bringing that aspect of potential reality into play.
Okay.
And so, that people need to be extraordinarily careful.
Not to go treading into that.
I remember Father Bill Davis, who the Jesuits have this saying, you know, yes, I've gone through all the Jesuit training and I've now been ordained and I still believe, sort of.
And what it is, is that you've really, by the time you get done with the 12, 15 year period of being trained as a Jesuit, you've come to disassemble the kind of simple minded, Childlike mythologies that you've been exposed to that have led you to want to be a priest.
Right.
Some people, right?
And you've had counterproductive almost.
You've had that stuff disassembled for you.
And that if you have an adequate faith in there, that there is sense, this makes sense, that there's kindness in the universe and that you maintain that faith through and you start to discern the pieces that come together to form a different.
Pattern of reality, and you come to see, oh, lo and behold, it turns out that there was an essential truth hidden in that whole kind of childlike mythology.
And you really understand that most of those premises that were set forth were done when 99% of the people were completely illiterate.
We were talking about this last night.
You know, they didn't even go more than 50 miles away from the place that they were born.
You know, back, you know, we're talking 2000 years ago.
You know, we're talking about the treaties of, you know, the various treaties when they came to get the councils.
Of Nicaea and others.
These doctrines were solidified back at a time when those who had the rare opportunity to be adequately educated to be able to formulate those kind of doctrines were dealing with people that were completely illiterate.
And they had to have things communicated to them in very simplistic reductionist forms in order for them to grok them at all.
And what happens is institutions ossify.
And they stay locked on those things, that old mistaking the roadmap for the road.
Right, yeah.
And so, part of the role of the Jesuit order is, at least since Pedro Rupe came on as the Superior General back in 1962, to undertake a genuine reformation of the church and to get down to getting ready for the 21st century of what's been discovered, because he came in after the discovery of quantum physics and the whole question of the reality.
Of how human consciousness participates in the process of collapsing the wave field.
The wave function.
Yeah.
The wave function into reality.
And so, this is not something to be toyed with.
But the fact of the matter is, that's part of what we're doing as a new paradigm.
Go into it with a loving attention and faith in the goodness of the universe, in the goodness of other sentient beings.
And in the goodness, the basic goodness of every human being, almost no matter what the condition is they find themselves in, that there's a conscious person being in there that is innocent in wanting to believe in the goodness of the world.
And that's how the goodness of the world rises into being.
And so we have to participate.
That's the kind of faith that people have to have, not the faith in some white anthropomorphic being sitting on a throne somewhere out of some medieval.
You know, image that they have, you know, but and not to be naive about the kind of possibilities the people who have collapsed the wave function in different ways.
I mean, I sit talking to a judge one time, state judge in Florida, who was proud of the fact that he had defended a motorcycle gang that had kidnapped this young woman who was hitchhiking on the road and crucified her, and that he got them off.
And I'm sitting here saying, what am I talking to this person for?
How could anybody be proud of having done something like that?
He was just proud of his abilities.
His feet.
Yeah, an accomplishment of some sort.
And so there are people who have abilities through force of personality and character and stuff can make things happen that are bad.
And when you encounter those kind of people, you have to really transcend the temptation to get caught in their field of hating them.
And I've not always been successful.
I remember I sat across the table from the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan of North Carolina that had gunned down six labor organizers who were trying to organize a labor union, a textile mill down in Greensboro, North Carolina.
And he came to the table, the deposition table, and he had.
A pin with six human skulls on it, on his lapel, for the people that they had shot in the head and killed who were demonstrating on behalf of organizing a union in the textile mills.
And I said, Are those what I think they are there?
And he said, Oh, yes, they are.
And he started giving off all those kind of vibes that when I played linebacker in college, I would have knocked you down.
Seriously.
I would have loved to have seen that.
But I've transcended that.
I had this bad experience when I was chief trial counsel for ACLU in the Rocky Mountain region.
We actually got on the stand the president of the State Board of Education of the state of Idaho that had terminated one of our professors that had tenure because he had stood up and opposed.
He opposed the funny story, I should tell you.
Rufus Lyman, his name was.
He was the head of the life sciences department, this guy at Idaho State University.
And the president of Idaho State University had died like a month and a half into the next school term.
And so the Board of Education appointed this guy, Davis, who was the coach of the football team that hadn't had a winning season in 12 years.
And he became the acting president and he started transferring money out of the academic side of the school into building a mini dome football stadium.
And then Rufus Lyneman, who was the head of the life sciences department, kind of took him on in the faculty meetings and started saying that, you know, like Davis has played too much football without a helmet, you know, and saying things like that.
And so that he demanded that the State Board of Education convene and have an emergency meeting of them.
And they fired.
Well, what they did first is they set up a star chamber.
They set up a closed door meeting and they missed the news cycle.
So they were like at seven o'clock at night and they'd missed the evening news.
And so they just issued a press statement saying that.
They've organized a committee that's going to be all appointed by President Davis and faculty members.
And if anybody has a complaint against Professor Rufus Lyman, you know, students, parents, faculty members, alumni, anybody who has any complaints against him, just bring these complaints to this particular committee.
And so they issued that statement.
So the media people all called Professor Lyman and said, What do you think of this?
And he said, Well, that's a star chamber.
You know, there's a very famous.
Thing that was condemned in all of the common law history of law.
So the headline the next morning was Professor Terms Panel Star Chamber.
And so all the members on the Board of Education got on the telephone and had a telephone conference and fired him.
And so ACLU were brought in to represent him, getting him reinstated.
And so I'm taking the deposition of the, getting ready to take the deposition of the president of the State Board of Education.
And so the first thing I did is I subpoenaed the recordings of the meeting, right?
Go to the documents first.
And so I subpoenaed his executive secretary and issued a subpoena to Ducey Stakem, ordering her to bring in the thing.
And I hold the meeting in the public library.
In downtown Pocatello, where everybody can come to the deposition, right?
So we get like 50 people all come, and she comes in.
I said to her, I said, okay, you're under oath now.
Have you brought the tapes?
And she said, no, no, I haven't.
I said, well, why haven't you?
She said, because I destroyed them.
And I said, really?
Why did you destroy them?
I said, well, the president ordered me to do that.
So, so, and he just so dreams it.
Oh, no, shit.
Now we don't have the diabetes.
And so I looked at her and I said, I said, look, how long have you been the secretary for the president of the State Board of Education?
She said, 23 years.
I said, I'll bet you were his secretary before they even recorded these things, weren't you?
She said, yes, yes, I was.
And I said, you used to take those notes, didn't you, in the meetings?
Back before they recorded them?
She said, Yes, I did.
I said, I'll bet you still do, don't you?
And she said, Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.
I said, Where are those notes?
She said, They're at my house.
And I said, How far away is your house?
She said, 15 minutes.
I said, Okay, here's what we're going to do we're going to all stay here.
Nobody's going to leave the room except you.
You're going to go home.
You're going to get the notes and you're going to bring them back here.
You're under court order here now.
And I don't want you to go to jail.
You know, but you know that you will if you don't do this, you go home and get them and bring them back here.
So she gets up and he's going back and brings them back.
She's not reading them into the record.
She starts reading into the record, you know, like Davis saying, you know, how do we fire this son of a bitch?
He's got tenure.
And he's got tenure.
So, you know, these things.
So, and then we had the deposition of the president of the Board of Education scheduled for after lunch at one o'clock in the courthouse.
In the courtroom where the trial would take place.
And he had no idea.
And I said, nobody at all, and nobody here who's been here witnessing is to breathe a word about this because we have a deposition.
You'll be held in contempt of court for this.
Wow.
So we come to the deposition at one o'clock, right?
And Rufus Lyneman was the president of the Association of University Professors for the state of Idaho, Idaho State University, the kind of union for the teachers.
And it turns out that the The courthouse was the same courthouse where Big Bill Haywood had been prosecuted, the head of the American Mining Association, the Miners Union, back when they had the big gunfight that went on over the mines back in Idaho.
And Clarence Darrow came in to defend him.
Anyway, so we're in this courthouse.
And it turns out that I had gone in when we first got called on this.
I went in on the way into Pogartello, Idaho, and I stopped off at the Attorney General's office.
And went into his office, just walked into his office with Joe Durham, who's, I told you, a nostalgic guy.
He was like 30 years old, going on 60, kind of a guy.
And I would just walk right into the attorney general's office, and the secretary's going, Excuse me, excuse me.
I said, No, I can see my way in.
We just walk into the attorney general's office, and I explained, I said, We're filing this lawsuit against the State Board of Education, who fired Rufus Lyman.
If you assign or yourself or anybody else to defend him, I'm going to name you as a defendant, you know, in a conspiracy to violate his First Amendment rights.
Okay.
And so you're not going to defend him or provide any attorney for him.
And so he had to go out and hire the president of the Board of Education, had to go out and hire, and he hired Jess Hawley III, who was the attorney general who had prosecuted Big Bill Haywood back 100 years earlier, right?
In this courtroom, right?
So I had all of this stuff kind of going, right?
And so we get him on the stand, swear him under oath.
And so I walk up and I say, okay, can you tell me why you fired Rufus Lyman?
And he said, well, if insubordination, you know, that his issues of statement characterizing our committee as a star chamber.
I said, but I said, but didn't you fire him just because Davis wanted him fired?
I mean, isn't that why you fired him?
He went, no, no.
And I said, well, you had a board meeting, didn't you?
Didn't you have a board meeting, an emergency meeting of the board?
And he said, Yes, we did.
And I said, Now, do you recall in that meeting, Davis saying to you, How do we fire this son of a bitch?
He's got tenure.
Do you remember that?
And he just stared at me like that for like about 15 or 20 seconds.
And he said, No, I don't recall that at all.
And I said, Oh, really?
And I went over and I picked up the notes and I said, How about this one?
Don't you think we could fire him if he says anything more about this?
Don't you?
And did you say?
And then it just dawned on him like that that we had the something else.
And he started looking and he started going.
Start getting all really red in the face.
And then he kind of goes, Oh, and he sags, sags down in the chair like that.
And the Jess Holly jumps up and he says, Look, there's something right.
I said, Sit down, sit down, shut up.
I said, You're going to get a chance.
I said, Look, I'm going to have to answer this question.
I said, You know that we've got the information.
So you've got to answer the question because I don't, and he's, and so he's just all of a sudden he slumps down like that.
And so I say, Okay, okay, look, I'm going to give you 10 minutes.
I'll give you a 10 minute break.
Nobody talks to him.
Nobody talks to him.
You don't go near him, Holly.
You know, he's under oath right now and you can't talk to him.
So, we take a break.
I get up and I go out into the hall and I'm kind of pissed off and I let him off like that.
You know, I'm kind of kicking myself and I'm going, all right.
So I turn around, I go into the men's room to go and take a leak or so.
I go into the men's room and there he is.
There's the president and they're all by himself.
And he sees me come in and I said, look, you've got to answer the question.
I said, you know, I've got nothing against you.
You've got to answer.
He's going, ah, ah.
And he goes up against the wall, sags down, falls, sits on the floor.
So I come out and I say, Look, I think there's something wrong here.
I think you better get some.
So they call the ambulance, they bring him to the hospital.
He has open heart surgery that afternoon.
Oh, wow.
So it was serious.
Yeah.
And he was having a heart attack.
So I've got all the rest of the Board of Education subpoenaed, right?
And so the next two guys, the next two guys that were scheduled, report into the court that they've both gone into the hospital.
And had voluntary open heart surgery.
Oh, they did.
I swear to God, that's a true story.
Whoa.
And I didn't know that that's something you could request.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They said it's a voluntary thing.
My doctor says I need to get some coronaries cleared up.
So they go in.
And so we move for summary judgment.
We got the notes and everything, right?
So we move for summary judgment against them.
We come into the hearing, and there's Jess Hawley comes in.
And so we come in, and the judge looks over at them all and says, So, okay, how are we this morning, gentlemen?
And no heart problems here this morning, are there?
He said to them, You know, so we got to some regenerative.
But since then, I said to myself, wait, now that there was something wrong here, you know, that somehow I had gotten myself into a state of consciousness that I was kind of justifying, you know, acting that way toward him and had, in a certain sense, dehumanized him to the point where I didn't, I not only didn't mind that he was having a heart attack, you know, I thought it was kind of helpful for us, you know, to intimidate the rest of them.
And so I realized, you know, and so that's when I started meditating.
Oh, wow.
It turns out Joe Durham, who was the general counsel for the ACLU, and that I was at ACLU National, the Rocky Mountain Regional, he was a Sufi, actually.
And I was staying at his house in Boulder, Colorado.
And they had this group that would come in and do all these prayers.
So I said, This meditation thing, I've heard a lot about it.
And I should really try to figure out what this is all about.
So I started reading up on transcendental meditation.
You know, it's not any kind of sectarian thing, it's not Hindu or Buddhist.
So I started doing those meditations.
And I discovered that I was there for a whole year at that office doing that.
And after a number of weeks of doing this, you know, every morning and every evening.
I started realizing that there was this, and of course, I didn't understand it to begin with what could happen or what's supposed to happen here.
But I realized that I finally got into doing this chant that enabled you to actually breathe all the air out and then breathe all the air in, and that you got into this kind of breathwork thing, in that you would actually start to ascend into this kind of state of consciousness that stopped all the chit chat going on in your brain.
This is what they call chicharari.
Yeah.
Talking to yourself.
And you get into this kind of a space.
And then I started having this kind of amazing feeling that here I am sitting in this particular position that they advocate you be in.
And I realized that people have been sitting in this exact position for a thousand years, you know, 2,000 years, you know, and doing this exact same breathing.
It was ancient.
And that they were getting into this kind of state where they started transcending the particular vicissitudes of your own particular incarnation here.
Yeah.
Your particular culture and time and place.
You know, once you get past worrying about, you have to do the laundry, you have to, you know, go get the oil changed in your car, you know, and you transcend into this place of kind of no thoughts as such.
And all of a sudden you start getting this kind of sense of perspective of your own consciousness.
And that, and I discovered that I started, it started causing me to be different.
You know, not be as aggressive, not being as, I didn't resort to kind of descending into these kind of lower chakra energy centers, you know, and drawing my motivation from that kind of stuff.
And so that I really realized that this was kind of really important, what we had discovered here.
Rediscovered.
Yeah, rediscovered.
And so then I ended up going back to do the PhD work and I ended up studying stuff at the Divinity School, you know, on this experience that people have this metanoia.
Type of experience people have.
And I started getting at it kind of intellectually.
And that's when I got approached by Father Roger Kutor, who had been the professor at the Harvard Divinity School, actually at ETS, the Episcopal Theological School.
Teaching the theological underpinnings of human rights.
And I had written a number of papers in the course.
And so he called me in and said, Do you realize what's happening now with the Jesuits?
And I said, What?
He said, I can tell from the papers that you were writing that you must be Catholic.
And I said, Yeah, Danny Sheehan.
I got a sister, Colleen, and a brother, Patty.
Yeah, right.
And so he said, But the Jesuits have all been.
All the provincials, all 100 provincials from around the world, have been called into Rome by the Superior General, Pedro Arupe, in that they're crafting a whole set of social justice documents.
Saying that the Jesuit order needs to devote itself to bringing about social justice, actually, the deconstructing of all of the sinful structures in both Western and Eastern culture.
And they're looking for a legal counsel, a general counsel.
And I've recommended you for it, and they want you to come down and talk to them about this.
And so that's what I did.
I went down and, well, actually, I didn't.
I actually went up to do the thing up here, the Mohawk thing about the Finch and Pride thing.
Sure.
And Father Bill Davis came all the way up from Washington, D.C.
So when I came out of this like 24 hour sweat with the six spiritual leaders of the six Indian nations, climbing out of this sweat, Father Davis was standing right there waiting.
Wow.
So that's how I got recruited to go on to become general counsel for the Jesuit headquarters in their social ministry office, which is important for this whole issue.
It's a good perspective from which to approach this in all of its complexity, in all of its political ramifications, all of its cultural ramifications, and very importantly, in all of its theological implications of how we integrate this extraordinary information about our human consciousness and its effect upon the collapse of the wave function.
And mental telepathy, and all of these things that are involved.
And you need to have to make it non secular.
You need to have a really holistic perspective on this thing in order to understand it, which is what we do at the New Paradigm Institute.
Which is fantastic because of the amount of myopic perspective that people have been taking through their own research or through their own paradigms has really led to conflict within UFO communities and led to a lot of.
Obviously, disagreement.
And it's so wild because we're all looking for the same thing.
We're all just looking for the truth.
And, you know, we do get sometimes because of so many different reasons, including our own personal history and psychology and everything else, we get locked into like, this is this or this is that.
It's just so good to have an open worldview, as you said, and a perspective, you know, that can really encompass every perspective, like just as much as humanly possible.
Yeah.
Danny, we're going to get into some questions here from the audience, if you don't mind.
Sure.
All right.
So these are questions from the interns or the operatives that we have over at the people who are going to be members of the Citizens for Disclosure.
That's correct.
Those would be the people.
Right, right in soon.
Yeah.
We have a lot of people there that are very, very involved every single day on our Discord channel having these important conversations.
And it's truly great to see because with our community moderators and everything else, we really uphold a nice platform to be able to communicate respectfully with each other while still throwing rocks at each other.
Exactly.
And everyone's entitled to their own opinions.
And we have just a really good discourse going on there.
So I really love it.
So here we go.
This is the first question.
What is your favorite bit of evidence that has convinced you that we are not alone by a fire mist?
Oh, it's the first one is seeing the photographs.
Seeing the photographs.
Photographs in the classified portions of Project Blue Book.
Perfect.
Followed by the photograph of Father Davis.
Yes.
That was all very, very helpful.
I will add on to that a secondary part of that question since it's already been answered.
Have you ever seen evidence of NHI through a photo or video?
No, just I've seen.
Half a dozen of the purported photos and stuff.
It's all the one that you had last night.
That these all require kind of intense scrutiny, scientific analysis of the photos, et cetera.
And that I haven't seen any of them yet that I have been able to subject to the necessary scientific verification to be convinced yet.
Or a lot of the examples that you're mentioning, are they from Greer?
From Dr. Greer?
Some are from Greer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's had some interesting ones.
A lot of light related beings and that type of thing during CE5s.
That's right.
You know, a couple of them, you know, running through the shrubs, you know, that famous one.
Yeah.
And, you know, there's.
What was the bijou?
I don't know.
The one floating around.
Yeah, I've seen a handful of these.
Yeah.
Okay.
Nothing that's convinced me yet.
Okay.
Yeah, fair enough.
And very specifically, there's a couple of these alleged interrogations of.
Of ETs that are being, you know, browbeaten and in Coleman.
The Jon Stewart.
Yeah.
I haven't been convinced of those things.
Neither have I.
I have not been convinced.
Okay.
Next question.
Fun, right?
It's like the old train station.
Yeah, I know.
I've seen it in Grand Central.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you had three questions for a non human being, what would you ask by Maverick Star?
If I were assuming that they were extraterrestrial, correct.
I would ask them, you know, what is it that they think about the potential existence of an infinite.
An eternal sea of completely undifferentiated consciousness that surrounds our material universe and its relationship to the condensation of consciousness into our material realm.
What do they think about that?
That's number one.
Well, deep.
That's number one.
Number two, I would ask them, you know, what was the process by means of which they actually overcame their?
Age of nuclear weapons or some totally self destructive weapon system that they had in their culture.
What was the process by means of which they overcame it?
And how many tries did it take of re establishing their culture and succeeding in the one that he comes from now?
Great question.
That would be the first one.
And secondly, I would ask him what is the juridical entity, if any, of which they're a part?
With the different species with whom it would be important to communicate to try to get a process going where there's a set of protocols with adequate authorization or authority to govern all their species.
What does that look like?
I love this.
In my mind, I'm imagining you sort of deposing one of these NHI in some type of galactic courtroom.
You know, and getting to asking, who do we talk to?
Who do we have to subpoena to talk to?
You know, the grand NHI here.
What's going on?
Give me them documents.
Yeah.
Wonderful, wonderful answer.
This one here is from Hara.
Kara asks, how long have you known about the relationship between psionics and the phenomenon?
About a year and a half.
That recent?
About the term psionics.
I mean, I've known about this issue of telepathic communication, and I knew about all the way up to the craft themselves.
Being apparently conscious in some way, some kind of consciousness.
And that was from, interestingly enough, gee, that must have been 10, 15 years ago that Bob Ramey, who was the president of the Academy of Arts and Science, and Mace Neufeld are the guys that do all the Tom Clancy movies, Patriot Games, and Red October.
They wanted to do the Iran Contra case.
Uh, and uh, I was in Bob Ramey's office and his uh, staff guy, uh, Nikki Grillo, uh, comes over to me and pulled me aside and said, Danny, he said, there's a there's a fellow that uh wants to talk to you, needs to talk to you.
He said, I think he's very important.
Uh, would you be willing to go talk with him, uh, without even knowing who he is?
Uh, and I said, Look, if you say so, Nikki, I'll I'll do it.
Uh, and I had some space between that meeting with Bob Ramey, uh, and going to see, um, uh, uh, Marlon Brando, who wanted to play Theodore Shackley in the movie.
So I had a space in the afternoon.
So I said, okay, I'll go to this.
So Nikki brings me out and we get in his big red El Dorado Cadillac convertible.
He had this like 1962 El Dorado convertible.
So we drive off and we go over to Warner Brothers studios.
I'm going to the lot and we go into this guy's office and it turns out to be.
Bill Todman Jr.
As Mark Goodson and Bill Todman used to be the big famous team that would produce I Love Lucy, a $64,000 question.
What's my line?
They produced all these.
And so Bill Todman Jr. was the son of Bill Todman.
And he was a junior exec of some kind at Warner Brothers.
And he wanted to talk to me because it turns out he had actually seen the UFO.
Wow.
He said that when he was in college, he was hiking actually outside of Boulder, Colorado, up in the Flatirons, in some big meadow up in there.
And he'd walk up to some meadow, and here's a UFO.
He said, sitting right in the middle of the meadow, this big field.
And he went all the way over to it and put his hand on it, and it was alive.
He said, This thing I could tell it was the craft itself was alive.
And that was the first time that I'd had that info.
So I started.
Checking into that and started finding out about stuff that was going on.
And I found out that there's some of our labs that are working on AI stuff, we're actually, and this is back, that must be, I said 10, 12 years ago, actually are using human stem cells to generate synapses in computers.
Whoa.
Yeah, fast forward that a million years.
And what does that look like?
That's right.
That's right.
And so I was onto this like about 10, 15 years ago.
So that I've been tracking that stuff about the crafts actually being sentient in some way.
And I knew that they pulled the helmet out of the Roswell crafts because they were communicating with the craft telepathically.
But I hadn't known prior to that that there was sentient kind of consciousness in the craft that responded to it.
Yeah, Philip Corso had mentioned that, the headpiece.
That's right.
There's also someone who Dr. Greer brought on for the disclosure project in the more recent one that he did a few years ago.
There was a gentleman there that said he had met, he was working at some test range that Raytheon was a part of and whatnot.
But at night, he was with, I think, his lady.
And in the middle of the road, there was this like dark triangular sort of like Vanta black craft that was just kind of like, Right there, and as he got out, he went to touch it, and it was like purring like a kitten, and it kind of like recoiled.
And there's this whole strange story, you know.
And credit like it's just when you think you got a grasp on what the heck's going on, yeah, you're like, Oh, yeah, we that we're just touching the edges of this thing right now, yeah.
You know, this this uh reminds me of a story that I should tell you that uh, two very dear friends of mine, uh, that uh, Mindy Mack, Robert McIntosh was one of my friends from college and law school.
And who went on to become the chief assistant attorney general of the state of Washington, actually.
And Joe Zinn, who was a dear friend of mine who was a computer programmer, a specialist for IBM.
And they were friends of mine, we were sitting in our living room in New York when I was working for the Cahill firm.
It was like a Sunday afternoon, and we were sitting there passing a joint around and kind of laughing.
And Joe Zinn started talking about, he says, You don't understand what's going on in this computer field.
He said, There's stuff that's going on that in another 50 years, he said, they will be doing things that you can't even conceive of right now.
And Mighty Mac said, like what?
That's where we are right now.
You know, with regard to all this stuff, you know, that we aren't even able to kind of really capture the concepts.
All we're doing is projecting out concepts we've already kind of figured out.
Yeah.
You know, and we're projecting, trying to project them out to the next kind of integer logical step.
That's right.
But these people are wowing us every time you think you're getting near this thing.
So you have to be careful about, you know, over concretizing any particular concept.
Piece of information you got, but this thing with psionics is the first time I heard it.
And I was sore into secrecy when I was told about the psionic, it's called psionic assist.
That there's a technology that they've got that is amping up the capacities of individuals to do telepathic communication.
Wow, an actual technology.
Yeah, and I call it psionic assist, and it's very dangerous.
And it's frying out the brains of people that they're testing.
And they've, but they still keep on doing it.
And it's very dangerous, very dangerous.
But it's working.
It's working enough to keep them doing it, despite what the consequences are.
But there have been pilots, American pilots, that have been subjected to this thing and just killed them, actually.
And they keep doing it.
They've got this opinion that if you're in the military, you're ours and we can do whatever we want.
But they spend millions training these guys and they're risking everything.
Are there any current investigations going on with this?
There's one that we're in the process of putting together.
I'm in communication with guys in the Justice Department now.
If we can get things settled down inside the Justice Department enough that Cash Prattell is in the FBI now.
They've got Pam is on over at Justice now.
And they've ordered everybody in the criminal division, which this would be, to resign, to sign these resignation letters.
So I'm talking to the guys who have refused to sign or who have been given permission not to have to sign because they're kind of restructuring the internals of Justice right now to investigate this thing.
Okay.
That's really interesting and concerning as well.
It's very alarming.
You know, this is, I suspect this is all part of a little bit of what David Grosh and Jake Barber have been alluding to that there are.
There have been some projects that have sort of disregarded human life that have to do with these retrievals.
And that's, yeah, that is right.
That's the dark part of all this.
Yeah.
It's not so much the using of tech, which obviously, you know, is illegal because they want to like whatever proprietary, blah, blah, blah.
But then it's like, oh, they're hurting people.
Yeah.
And they can't do this.
You know, I mean, you know, they think we're naive and, you know, like, You know, as civilians, you don't know what you're talking about.
You know, we have to put people at risk in order to, you know, test pilots, but that's voluntary.
Yeah.
And I assume that they were getting these pilots to voluntarily agree to try this technology that they have.
But they shouldn't have done, they shouldn't have gone to the lengths at which they've gone.
And, you know, following the paper trail, this technology, well, there's probably a company that came up with that.
Yes.
Well, they've worked off, they've worked off, I think they were working off the helmet technology.
Trying to figure out what that was.
From Roswell?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it started there.
But it's a psionic assist.
It's not just a conduiting of the actual, you know, brainwaves.
It's amplifying.
It's amplifying dramatically, and it's fatal.
Wow.
And obviously, yeah, people are signing up for it, don't know what they're getting into, I'm sure.
Right.
That's, yeah, that's concerning.
Mm hmm.
Well, this question kind of is a little bit of a follow up to that.
So, this will be the last one here.
He says, Are you aware of any whistleblowers or evidence not known by the public about to come out in the next month?
In the next month.
Yes.
Yeah, it could be yes or no.
Yeah.
Without giving away too much, because obviously, if that is the case, we want to be protective of whoever.
I don't want to touch on that any further.
I'm protecting my relationships with other people there.
On a scale of one to disclosure with a big D?
No, it's not that yet.
They're not there yet.
Okay.
Because they have to bring on all the other structures.
I see.
They've got to have the Justice Department involved in it to decide whether anybody's going to be given immunity to disclose the information.
Who are the people that are going to be suspect who might try to retaliate against them so that they can reach out to them to warn them not to do this?
They need to figure out who else might get potentially exposed by revealing this information.
There's complexifications, but my role in this is to make sure that the complexifications don't become justifications and rationales.
National security, continuing the same bullshit that we've been dealing with for 80 years.
Because they've all got some excuse for why they don't do this.
Of course.
Do you think that there will ever be some type of channel, kind of like a witness protection program equivalent for some of these whistleblowers?
Because it seems like just offering them a pension for a lot of these whistleblowers isn't enough because their lives might be at stake.
The problem is that you can't hide from these.
They've got the remote viewing capacity.
When they can read files at a distance like this, you aren't going to hide.
There's no hiding.
And it's sad because, I mean, The effective and legitimate utilization of capacities like that is hard to really figure out why it's a good thing to go around reading people's minds or anything else.
So almost all of this has been boosted by military objectives and spying and espionage things, and it's surveillance.
But you say things like, wouldn't you want to know if there's a person loose who's raping, kidnapping, and raping four year old children?
Don't you think we ought to be able to?
Get at this person and stop them.
They always give you these horrible, extreme examples to get you to agree in principle that somebody ought to be able to do that.
And then you say, yeah, but who's going to be in charge of that?
And who do they decide to target?
And then what happens when it starts to discover that they're actually spying on elected representatives to figure out what their position is on a bill, which they will do?
They will do.
They will use all of these things.
That's from a constitutional point of view that Larry Tribe always taught us.
Saying, look, you've got to understand that any power that you agree to is given to the government, they will try to abuse it.
That's what we know about.
That's what the purpose of the Constitution is.
You have to assume that there's somebody eventually is going to try to abuse it.
And so you have to set up kind of prophylactic measures to keep that from happening if you're going to grant any kind of power to a governing structure.
And that's our job as constitutional litigators to figure out what those restrictions are that are reasonable, that take into account what the legitimate interests of the collective community are in law enforcement and protection.
Without overdoing it, knowing that the history has always been to overdo it.
Yeah.
Always has been the history.
Follow that.
Yeah.
And so that we have to be willing to accept some of the consequences of having a governing structure that isn't as effective as is conceivably possible to be.
You know, I mean, this idea of having the television cameras on all the streetlights now, the stoplights and photographing your license plate and you in the car.
And then keeping all the information and sending it to the fusion centers that they have.
And then they say, oh, that's not a violation of any of your Fourth Amendment rights because you're out in public, you know?
And then they say, okay, what about your phone call?
Oh, they're monitoring your phone calls too.
And they actually take the position, oh, yeah, monitoring your phone calls and recording all your phone calls doesn't violate your right to privacy unless they want to listen to them.
You know, they're just storing them.
And in that case, they'd have to file a warrant.
But the problem is, is then they've got the FISA court, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, where they say, You don't need to have probable cause to believe that any crime has been committed.
Yeah.
All you have to do is have an articulable suspicion that information related to a national security interest of the United States may be discussed.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
Discussed.
How's that for a standard?
You know, and then bang, they're into your telephone conversations.
Yeah.
You know, and they've had over two dozen instances where that power was invoked just on behalf of normal law enforcement.
Hmm.
That's how easy it was.
Not any intelligence activity at all, but law enforcement.
And then you run into people say, Well, don't you think you should try to get people that are doing kiddie porn?
Don't you think they should have some way of stopping kids from being subjected to kiddie porn?
And then if you say, No, I think that that shouldn't justify listening to everybody's telephone calls, then somehow you're supporting kiddie porn.
You're the bad guy.
And you're saying, Look, that's just bad thinking.
So I don't have to worry about.
You.
I mean, if you're going to have that kind of thinking, I'm not going to be able to persuade you.
Yeah, there's an argument for or against anything, really.
We just have to look at logic and let that sort of dictate what we're allowed to be doing or using this stuff for.
And there is a means at our disposal as human beings by means of which we can actually discern.
What type of human conduct, either individual or collective, is either harmonious with or disharmonious to the natural order of the universe?
That's natural law that there is such a thing and we can discern it.
And that's what this whole faculty of discernment is about.
The whole conscience is about.
It has to do with consciousness.
And the higher and higher your consciousness is, the larger and larger your perspective is on things, the more appropriate the decisions are.
That you're going to be making.
Of course.
And that's why this is so hopeful.
If we're at a point where, or a juncture where we're going to be actually participating in elevating the consciousness generally of our whole human family, we're hoping that that's going to bring about an improvement in our conduct toward each other.
It will, inevitably.
And that's the whole issue of free will, of trying to force that on people or make them raise their consciousness in some way.
Force an increase in consciousness on them by shocking them, by exposing them to some sort of ontological shock, you know, is a, is a, those are moral and ethical questions that we have to answer.
That's, that's why I ended up at Jesuit headquarters instead of in F. Lee Bailey's office where he was asking me to represent Mikey Angulo of the Angulo brothers crime family.
Right.
And I was looking at him like, what are you kidding me?
You know, I mean, what do you think?
I'm a wise guy?
Yeah.
I, I, As I said to Mikey Angulo, you know, Mr. Angulo, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.
I said, So you understand what my relationship with you is?
I said, Because I know what you are.
And you kill people that, you know, you think betray you.
I don't want you to get the slightest suspicion that I'm ever working for you or doing anything to help you.
Because I'm never going to betray you.
So that's what I said to him, you know?
Yeah.
I mean,.
You know, we've got a long way to go, but we've also come a long way.
Oh, yes.
You know, and I think it's really noble.
I think it's great what we're doing.
And I encourage, you know, everyone out there to go check out newparadigmenstitute.org and participate in any way you can.
And even if you don't want to do that, you know, just make sure to have an open mind when having these conversations.
I think it goes a lot further than you would expect in the grand scheme of things.
You know, if we can go back to, A bit of the mind state we had in the 60s and 70s, where people were a little bit more open to love leading the conversation.
I think, you know, inevitably it takes away the desire for militarization and this sort of control that is being exhibited on us, you know, and it makes it a little bit more of an expansive reality to live in and one filled with a little bit more positive nature.
And I think that's, again, a very noble thing.
Well, people are going to discover it.
If they become citizens for disclosure, they're going to become part of a community.
Yes.
You know, and ideally in their local jurisdiction, then they'll get to meet the other people, you know, go to their homes, meet their kids, you know, start to have a sense of community and sharing this kind of optimistic, positive view.
And one of the things that they can be assured, and that is that the New Paradigm Institute is not going to be naive about this, you know, that we're cognizant of some of these concerns.
All the concerns that people have about this, including the national security interest and other things.
I'm not a great fan of the national security state infrastructure.
I'm not a great fan of the nation state image, which is part of the Treaty of Westphalia, like of 1625, which was an agreement made by the royal families to divide the physical areas up for the royal families to control.
So I'm not absolutely committed to the maintenance of the institution of the nation state.
But the people who work and are raised in the national security state, that becomes their absolute totem.
Yeah.
You know, that's what they have to protect, you know, and they're assigned to do it and trained to do it.
So I know that it gives them the willies whenever I say something like, you know, that we may have to have some sort of larger, you know, juridical association on our planet.
Sounds a little too libertarian.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It just sounds scary.
It sounds like the one world government.
Yeah.
You know, that's going to be, you know, I mean, how are we doing with our own nation state government right now?
Yeah.
You know, I often think of that too, and people are like, One world government, beware.
I'm like, Avoid, it sounds amazing.
Like, I don't, maybe that's the psyop is that we were bred to think it's a bad thing.
I'm like, Doesn't one world government mean we have no one left to fight?
Yeah.
Isn't that, you know?
And they're like, well, they'll put a chip in you.
As long as you maintain your right of free will.
Of course.
I can, you know, I can participate.
And if you want to opt out, you know, I mean, I think this is outrageous.
They say now, you know, that you've got to go in if you're going to be allowed to drive a car.
Yeah.
You know, you've got to have social credits and all this.
You've got to have a driver's license that's got this chip in it so they can monitor you wherever you are.
And then they're going to have it all be a, a, a, What I call a national identifier.
Yeah.
You know, and they're going to, and then eventually they're going to want you to use it for all your credit cards and your medical stuff.
You got to recognize it ahead of time.
For the record, I'm not, I'm not in favor of being chipped up.
No, no.
I was kind of going along with it, but yeah.
No, no, no.
That's not a good idea.
No, I definitely.
No chips here.
No.
You know, we've seen what happens with social credit in China and everything else.
And it's just a terrible thing for humanity to be.
It's another means of control.
And that's something we just have to.
We're basic free will champions here.
Yeah.
You know, in that we want to maximize the amount of free will that individuals have.
And we want to maximize the degree of cooperation that people have with each other.
We want to minimize the application of brute force or violence and all that.
And to terrorism.
Yeah.
And so it's not surprising.
And that's why if you look to Christianity and Hinduism, Buddhism, And Judaism, you know, that all of these basic ethics are there.
Sure.
You know, so that these are things that is like a parallel value system that we've been exposed to.
And all we're doing is saying that we prefer this one to have the balance of kindness and loving and compassion and charity and concern for your fellow human being and other sentient beings.
And, you know, the worst that could happen is they say, oh, you're too naive.
Sure.
You know, and that, you know, we're not going to, we're not going to give you a security clearance.
Yeah.
And at the same time, you can pray for whoever you want.
Yeah.
You know, we can still work towards this beneficial event.
Yeah.
And in the meantime, you know, you can still have all, have your cake and eat it too.
Okay.
Well, Danny, this has been a fantastic conversation.
We've gone on quite long enough.
Well, I don't know.
We lose time.
We're in a time warp.
We are in a time loop.
I told you, you're going to get back to your house.
It's going to be the same time you left.
Yeah, we've gone on for three and a half hours.
This has been an enlightening conversation, to say the least.
Thank you so much for sharing all of this with me and being so open and transparent and for being on the forefront of transparency and fighting for our right to more information about what's going on in our skies and in our oceans and in our government.
Really, really, truly an honor to be sitting here and chatting with you.