Danny Sheehan details Oscar Wolf's deathbed confession regarding a telepathic encounter with an extraterrestrial at S4 near Area 51 and presents classified crash retrieval photographs featuring symbols resembling Bob Lazar's descriptions. He connects these revelations to his legal work with Luis Elizondo and Dr. John Mack, while analyzing the FBI and CIA's historical recruitment of Mormon members for intelligence operations due to their disciplined lifestyles and beliefs in seeding life on other planets. Ultimately, the episode suggests that credible UFO evidence exists within declassified files, yet institutional barriers prevent broader public acknowledgment of these extraterrestrial contacts. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, Qwen/Qwen3-ForcedAligner-0.6B, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Underground Saucers at S400:13:39
The commander comes to him one day and he says, Look, I need you to come with me.
I've been asked to go to S4, way down under the ground.
And he said, They go in and he saw actual saucers that were there, he said, you know, kind of just floating there.
They were like three or four of them.
Underground.
Yeah, down underground at S4.
We come into this area and he said, There was this room there with this big one way mirror.
Being there.
His commander went into the room and was having this telepathic communication with him.
And they said they had these index cards that had the questions and answers.
And one of the questions that they asked him, he said, was, you know, like, where are you guys from?
And what are you doing here, right?
The ET guy said, I am one of a person from different star systems in our galaxy who have all been tasked with going around together.
To different planets where life has actually begun and to monitor how it's going.
And that's where I saw the photographs of a crash retrieval.
There wasn't any doubt about what it was.
It was not Roswell because it was snow on the ground.
It was snow on the ground.
You can see in the photos that it had plowed through this field and it plowed up all the dirt in the snow.
I saw that there were symbols actually on the bottom or along the bottom of the dome.
That was at the top of this.
It was a classic saucer.
I actually traced every single one of the symbols.
Oh, yeah, sure.
Yeah.
Here, I'll show you.
Could you draw what you saw in the picture?
Yeah, here's the big hillside.
And so I could see that all along the bottom, right along the bottom of the disc, right?
The bottom of the dome.
The bottom of the dome, that I could see these symbols.
And they looked like this.
The Church of Scientology.
Believes that there's a major confrontation going on between reptilian extraterrestrial species from Zeta Reticuli and the people from the Pleiades.
In the next four year period, we're getting set to lay the groundwork for establishing the protocols that are going to govern our relationship with this extraterrestrial civilization for the next 10,000 years.
And I was sworn to secrecy when I was told.
About the psionic, it's called psionic assists.
That there's a technology that they've got that is amping up the capacities of individuals to do telepathic communication.
And it's very dangerous and it's frying out the brains of people that they're testing.
If you had full authority to subpoena anyone or any person or any entity, who would it be?
Are you aware of any whistleblowers or evidence not known by the public about to come out in the next month?
Yes.
I was wondering if you could find an answer for this question.
Is it possible that the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland is working with non terrestrial biological material?
The reason why I ask that is because back when I was a roofer, I went to go work at that particular installation on a building with three smokestacks.
And we were on our way up to the top of the building.
A guy came out of the room with a triangular headed entity that was maybe about two and a half feet tall in a jar of liquid.
And as soon as he saw me and my partner, he told us that he was very sorry and he retreated back into the room.
Ladies and gentlemen, today we are joined by Danny Sheehan, who is a constitutional lawyer.
Who has been involved in some of the most important cases in U.S. history, including Watergate, the Pentagon Papers, Iran Contra?
He's also a key figure in UAP disclosure and an advocate for government transparency.
He's represented people like Luis Elizondo, and he's also founded the New Paradigm Institute and has been, sorry, your role with the Disclosure Project as well.
You're chief counsel.
For 20 years, I was general counsel for the Disclosure Project for Dr. Stephen Greer.
That's right.
So, obviously, this makes you one of the most important figures in the fight for UAP transparency today.
So, thank you, Danny Sheehan, for joining me.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Chris.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm so looking forward to today's conversation because it isn't every day that I get to speak with, first of all, a Harvard trained lawyer, also studied at Divinity School.
You've got just probably the thickest resume out of anyone who's ever sat here and possibly anyone I'll ever meet.
So, it is truly, truly an honor to be able to.
To chat with you about all this.
I appreciate it.
I appreciate a chance to do it.
Yeah.
So, for those of you interested in what Danny's doing, I would highly encourage you.
I do this at the top so people have a chance to look at it, but go check out the new Paradigm Institute and what they're doing.
I left the link below.
It's wonderful what you guys have set up and how long you've been working on this.
I didn't know.
We've talked a lot behind the scenes about this, and we'll get into that also a little bit later.
Sure.
First, I kind of have a bunch of questions here that I want to get to, but ultimately, I would like us to use this time to get a little weird.
You're someone who I've been fascinated with your interviews because you always have these really interesting nuggets of information that I've never heard anywhere else.
And I also want to let the audience know that this isn't coming from, you know, a lot of times there is this frustration with, I can't say this or I can't say that.
Right, right.
But you're a public interest lawyer.
That's right.
Can you give us a little bit of a definition of what that means?
Well, it's interesting.
It's sort of a thing that we created back in the 70s.
That I graduated from law school in 1970, and we were the classes that were coming out of the law schools at that time didn't think that any of the other kind of slots were appropriate.
We'd end up working for major corporations, or we'd work for the government as a prosecutor or a public defender's office.
And so the one spot that they had to go to was ACLU if you were going to be doing kind of civil liberties work.
But ACLU was not as aggressive as a lot of us wanted to be.
So, at the Harvard Civil Rights Law Review, I had sent out letters to lawyers all around the country saying that, you know, if you have a really interesting and important constitutional law issue, send it to us and let us, we'll pick some and we'll write briefs and stuff about it.
And that's where the very first case we did ended up establishing the right of journalists to protect their confidential news sources.
So, it went all the way to the United States Supreme Court and it established the right of journalists to protect their confidential news sources against government.
Compelled disclosure in grand juries mostly.
And so we ended up making friends with a lot of investigative journalists.
And so we started discovering all kinds of issues that were going on that needed to have lawyers.
And so we kind of developed this whole kind of public interest trust of lawyers all together working on these things.
And so we developed this kind of category of a public interest lawyer.
So whenever I agreed to represent someone later, I would say, look, you know, you've come to me.
Usually, and ask me to represent you.
And it's because you've got some kind of a cause, a really important thing that you're trying to achieve as a matter of public policy.
I agree with you on that.
Otherwise, I wouldn't be representing you.
And so you have to understand that in addition to representing you and your particular interest in this, we represent the issue itself and the people who need to get access to this information.
So we have to have an agreement kind of upfront that I'm here.
Working with you on this, and we've got our own public interest objectives.
And so, you need to understand that as a condition of our working together.
So, I've had those conversations with Dr. John Mack, for example, at Harvard.
I had that conversation with Marsha Smith when she asked me to come and work on the major investigation for the Library of Congress, the Congressional Research Service for President Carter.
And I explained that to Luis Elizondo.
I've explained it to Stephen Bassett when I was working with them.
So, I've had a whole series of these clients, as it were.
It wasn't that popular when I was at this law firm, the Cahill firm, where we represented the New York Times and NBC, because I would tell them that, I'm not going to just do whatever it is you tell me to do.
In fact, after two years at the firm, they explained to me that they thought that my interests were not necessarily the same as all of their clients, in sort of asking me to leave.
You know, and I said, No, I'm fine.
I'm fine.
You know, I'm representing the New York Times and NBC, and doing, you know, I get to spend 50% of my time doing public interest cases.
You know, so that's how I was at Attica Prison the night everybody was killed there.
You know, I, you know, did the men in the Manhattan House of Correction for men, did the filed the big lawsuit against them for cruel, unusual punishment, you know, and lots of these other cases that I was doing.
And then I said it to Lee Bailey, F. Lee Bailey, when he asked me to come to join his firm.
When we were doing the Watergate burglary case.
And for example, I investigated the reason why the Traficanti people were in the Watergate Hotel.
Bailey didn't seem to care, or he may have already known, but I conducted that investigation.
That's how I figured out what was going on, why they were in the Watergate Hotel and all that.
So this is all because this seems to be the MO that the through line with your work is that you're all about transparency.
You're really, really fighting for the people's right to know about UAP, about this consciousness work, but also about these other fronts, these other civil cases that you've represented.
And being this type of lawyer, also, a lot of this is pro bono work.
It's all pro bono work.
It's all pro bono work.
Well, except when I was at the law firm.
Correct.
It was kind of bizarre.
I was actually getting paid for it.
It was kind of unique because I wasn't doing anything.
I was working all the time, so I didn't ever get to use it.
That's a surprise to a lot of people, I think.
You know, most people, when they hear lawyer, they think, oh, this person's all about the bills and all of it.
And it's not necessarily the case.
It actually isn't the case at all with you.
And so, you know, to hear that, and this extends beyond just legalities, this actually touches into like TS clearance opportunities that you've denied as well.
That's right.
For the same reasons.
Oh, yeah.
I refuse to ever accept a security clearance because then I'll never get to tell anybody about all the other stuff that I know.
Yeah.
Of course, I spent 10 years at Jesuit headquarters in Washington, D.C., as their general counsel in what they call their social ministry office.
And so I was into this whole thing of not needing to get paid for anything or charging anybody anything.
And it therefore gives you the additional freedom to say, look, we're representing the public interest here.
You're here because you agree with me that we have to be meeting the public interest.
So you're not paying me.
You can't be strong armed by a paycheck.
Yeah.
But even though I joke once in a while, I mean, people say, you know, what do you guess is going on in here?
What do you guess about this or that?
I say, you know, I don't get paid to guess.
You know, of course, I don't get paid at all, as it turns out.
So we raise money, we get contributions from people that get tax deductions, and just like ACLU or NAACP or anything else.
Yeah.
So that's, I've set those up over the years.
I think that's tremendously commendable and obviously very important for this conversation that we're about to have as well.
Because I think we needed that at the top because there is a growing frustration among the community with this, you know, with this topic.
Because people want to, you know, they don't want people to have some weird hidden agenda because that has happened in the past and there's been, you know, we've been slighted before by this stuff.
And so I think people are, you know, to, they're just really critical of whoever, you know, talks about this subject.
So I thought that was really, really commendable, but also really important to get out of the way.
Secret JFK Assassination Records00:02:25
Great.
Right before we were setting up the cameras, you had mentioned something that we spoke about last night.
Now, you'd mentioned this gentleman.
Oscar Wolf.
Oh, Oscar, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, this is an amazing story.
Yeah.
It is a great story.
Yeah.
Because it ties into S4, which ties into inevitably Bob Lazar, but also Dan Burrish and all these other really fringe sort of cases.
But there's a really interesting portion of the story that you're about to tell.
And that has to do with the deathbed confession.
Yes, that's right.
Oh, the FBI finds secret JFK assassination records.
But how can I trust this?
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Demanding News Transparency00:10:53
So I get a call from this old man.
His name is Oscar Wolf.
And he calls me on the phone at my headquarters office in Washington and wants me to come and see him, he's dying.
He's in hospice, actually.
And he wants me to come see him.
And I said, Well, look, I've got a lot of things to do.
I've got a lot of people I need to see.
Why should I make this a priority?
He said that I was.
He said, in the classified portion of Project Blue Book, I was fully employed there as a U.S. Army stenographer and bookkeeper.
So I said, okay.
So I fly out there.
He was out in Minnesota.
So I flew into Minneapolis and rented a little car and drove up into this little teeny town where he was.
So I go to the little hospice place, and there he is with all the tubes in him and in his arms.
And he's got one of those little things on wheels.
He's having to do Walk around with.
And so we sat down and he started explaining to me that he was assigned to the portion of Project Blue Book that they never admitted they had, which was over 700 incidences, incidents in which they couldn't conceivably explain it away.
There were too many people who had seen it.
The witnesses who had seen it were too credible.
They had photographs or video or something of it, and they just couldn't call it swamp gas, you know, or, you know, searchlights on the bottom of clouds.
Jupiter.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Or Venus and Mars.
Yeah, Venus.
So, he was in that section, he said, and he started telling me.
So, I'm sitting down with him, you know, just like this.
You know, we're sitting off a little table at the little hospice, and he starts telling me about how that he was a clerk typist from the U.S. Army.
He was in the U.S. Army, assigned as a clerk typist to this unit, and he would just be in the office all the time.
And he gave me the name of the base where he was and everything.
And so, I started pressing him to, you know, say, who was your commander?
You know, what was the name of your unit?
You know, what years were you there, et cetera?
And he was.
Forthcoming and telling me this stuff, right?
And then he gets to the point of saying that he would stay in the office and they had these guys who would get assigned from different military units, majorly US Air Force and some Army people.
And they would come through and they would spend a year, sometimes two, going out and doing field interviews and interviewing the people and trying to either talk them out of believing that it was a UFO or, but finally coming back and saying, look, this is the real deal.
Here's my information.
He would take it all down and keep the records, right?
Then they would go and others would come, but he stayed all through the years in the special division.
And it turns out it was because he belonged to the same church that the commander of that unit was in.
It was a thing called the Worldwide Church of God.
And it was this really fundamentalist, deep kind of conservative Christian sect.
And so that he got on really well with the commander.
So he ends up.
The commander comes to him one day and he says, Look, I need you to come with me.
I've been asked to go to S4 out in the West.
We have to leave because he was like in New Jersey.
So he didn't tell him what they were going to do there.
He says, You have to, I want you to come with me.
So they go together and they go to Area 51.
Then they take them all the way like 11 miles away or something.
They go to S4.
Do you know?
Sorry to interrupt.
Do you know if they took a bus or anything or how did they get to say that?
Somebody took them.
From Area 51.
Yeah, in a car.
He said they were, he started out just kind of saying, I went to Area, I was at Area 51.
Then they put them in this vehicle and took him and his boss, drove, drove to PAPTOS to the S4.
Yeah.
So he said they were way down under the ground and he said they'd go in and he saw actual saucers that were there, he said, you know, kind of just floating there.
They were, they're like three or four of them underground.
Yeah, down underground at S4.
And they were just like in these little, uh, uh, Hangers, little, little, like little garage, like thing, each one of them, a little area, and they were just kind of floating there.
And he was kind of, you know, floored by that.
And they, they went and they said that we went into this other section and we come into this area.
And he said, and there was this, this room there with this big, uh, one way mirror, like, and you could see through into the room.
Uh, but you could tell it wasn't a window, it was like a mirror.
And there was a UFO being there, but it was tall, it was like, like five and a half feet tall.
And it had like this little, they had a little, Blue jumpsuit on him, and he was in the room.
He thought it was demonic, he said, and he didn't want to go near it.
But his commander went into the room and was having this telepathic communication with him.
He was afraid of the being, he was afraid of it.
The being.
He was afraid of it.
So he stayed outside.
And the people that were there, they obviously were having some process they were going through with this ET guy.
And that they'd been questioning him.
And they said they had these index cards that had the questions and answers that he'd provided.
And they were going to show them to Wolf, right?
And so he's.
So, sorry, index cards, they would, of the communications that they had previously.
Yes, earlier Wolf.
And they would.
They would transcribe them.
Yes.
They were all transcribed.
And he didn't tell me whether they were printed out or typed or what they were.
I see.
I didn't know.
He just said they had it there.
And one of the questions that they asked him, he said, was, you know, like, where are you guys from?
And what are you doing here?
Right.
And he said, the ET guy said, you know, that I am one of a person from different star systems in our galaxy who have all been tasked with going around together to different planets where life has actually begun.
And to monitor how it's going.
He said, and just giving reports on this.
And so he'd been asked to follow up because, well, like, who's in charge of that?
Who's tasked you to do all that?
And he said, well, you people would probably consider God, but it's very different than you think it is.
That's what he said.
He said, and I didn't believe him because I thought he was demonic.
And I've never told anybody, never told my wife, I never told anybody about this.
But he said, I'm.
Dying, as you can see, he said.
So, I wanted to tell you that this is true.
So, that's what he explained to me.
So, and the reason I was telling you is we were joking about, you know, failing to turn on the record because I had this little camera that I brought with me.
The staff said, You got to record this guy.
So, I put it on the table and I got it with, I forgot to turn the sound on, you know.
So, I sat there, I interviewed the guy for like a whole Saturday afternoon, then all Sunday morning the next day.
I'm just, I'm double checking mics.
Yeah, double check your mics.
You know, but it was really a bummer.
Oh my gosh.
But anyway, that was Wolf.
Wow.
Yeah.
So I'm fortunate that I have things like that that happened in the past to get to talk to interesting people.
You know, that instantly makes me think of Dan Burrish with J Rod.
Yeah.
Know so many people dismissed that story, it would be interesting to see him and Bob and all them just be vindicated one day.
You know, you well, Bursch, you know, the twice three different times that I had people set up meetings that I was supposed to go meet Bursch, and every single time, you know, he'd have some kind of an excuse, like you know, his mother's horse died, or you know, right?
Yeah, you know, and and uh, or that his wife had decided he didn't want to talk to anybody anymore, and so finally I just sort of dropped it.
I've got a whole Stack of stuff in my office there of all the Burrish stuff and lots of details about it.
So someday I may have to sit down, go through it again, and talk with him.
What's one question you would ask Dan Burrish if you could ask him right now and it would be like the last time you ever saw him?
What would that question be?
Does he have any idea of where J Rod is now?
Or is there anybody else?
Are there any other beings that we are presently in direct communication with?
Because we've gotten a lot of information since that time of different people that say they've been in underground facilities and that there are actually different beings there from different species actually working together on some of these bases.
Some people have given us some type of coalition or agreement.
Something.
Now, what we're going to do now at the New Paradigm Institute, now that we've turned our full attention to this, because this work has been basically.
Kind of ancillary to a lot of the other major stuff that I was doing.
Sure.
You know, doing the Iran Contra case, the Karen Silkwood case, you know, in all these.
But, you know, so I would go and work with Dr. Mack on the side, basically, and work as general counsel to his peer group, the Project for Extraordinary Experience Research.
But it was all kind of like on my free time.
But now that since Luis Elizondo called me and asked me to represent him, you know, I've given this kind of a higher priority.
In our whole organization, the Romero Institute, that is the progeny of our old Christic.
The Christic Institute is what we set up out of Jesuit headquarters to do the Karen Silkwood case originally.
Then we did the Three Mile Island case to stop them from pumping all the radioactive effluents into the Susquehanna River.
We did the Greensboro case against the Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazi Party that gunned down all those labor organizers down in Greensboro.
We did the Eddie Carthan, the first elected.
A mayor in the Black Delta, Mississippi, first degree murder case where we caught the guys doing it and put them on the stand and broke it.
There's lots of really good stories there.
But those are kind of the cases in chief that I was doing all the time.
And all the other stuff was like weekends.
And I would go and do talks at the International UFO Congress, for example, and then these consciousness things, Conscious Life Living Expo.
Christic Institute Origins00:02:03
And so I would just go.
And do these on the weekend and then come back and go right back to work on Monday.
But this is what you were always really passionate about.
This is what drove your curiosity for years.
You know, we'd spoken last night and you'd said initially you'd set out to be an astronaut.
Yes.
Yeah, early on in your, you know, you wanted to join the Air Force.
You were like, this is my way into becoming an astronaut.
That's right.
And the reason you wanted to become an astronaut.
Because I wanted to get to meet people from other star systems.
And I thought that during my lifetime, this is what was going to happen.
We were going to in the hundred years or so that I had here in this particular incarnation, you know, that we would be actually encountering the beings.
And so I told that to Jacob Jabis, as I mentioned to you last night, you know, I was one of the top three nominees for the Air Force Academy appointment in 1963.
I know I don't look that old, but the bottom line is, you know, when he asked me why I wanted to be an astronaut, I said, well, because I want to get to go into outer space and get to meet these other beings from these other star systems.
And he looked at me and said, You actually believe that there's other people on planets?
I said, Well, sure.
I said, So do you.
You must.
I mean, you're a United States Senator.
I said, You got to know that.
You got to know that.
So I was right from the very beginning, I was dedicated to wanting to do that.
But as I mentioned to you last night, he ended up, he was so stunned by what I said.
As he said, Look, I've got to admit to you, I'm not supposed to say this, but I've already given the appointment to the Air Force Academy to the son of one of my major funders and supporters.
That's just the way it really is, Dan.
Said, but I'll give you the appointment to the Naval Academy, you know.
And I said, I'm not into boats.
I don't fly.
I want to get to be.
And he said, No, no, you can get to fly in the Navy and be in that.
And I said, No, I don't want to have to go through all the boat stuff.
You know, I want to do the planes.
And so he said, Well, look, you can get the appointment from your congressman, he said.
And you don't have to have the senatorial appointment.
Astronaut Appointment Path00:06:13
You know, there's, you know, like a few dozen congressional appointments from New York.
You know, who's your congressman?
He said, Oh, I know Carl King.
I'll give him a call.
He said, I'll just.
Tell them to give it to you.
Well, it turns out that he gave the appointment, Carlton King gave the appointment to the son of the Republican mayor of Glenn's Falls, you know, who was number seven in our congressional district competition.
Number seven.
Yeah.
And so I said, Oh, look, our government, I thought, is a little bit out of tune here.
I said, so I better become a lawyer.
And then I can work a little while and help get our government back into tune.
And actually, when I got out to practice, I discovered that our government wasn't just a little out of tune.
It was playing an entirely different song than we'd been taught.
And so I got caught in this and doing the Iran Contra case, doing the Pentagon Papers case, and discovering this entire netherworld.
But all the while, still pursuing.
Yeah.
Well, actually, it reached out to me a bit.
I was at Jesuit headquarters in 1976 when President Carter got elected.
When President Carter got elected, one of the very first things he did before he'd even come into Washington, having been the governor down in Georgia, he gets elected president on November 4th of 1976.
And on the 19th of November of 1976, he orders the head of the CIA to come down to Plains, Georgia, to come to his home.
And brief him on the UFO issue because he had seen a UFO when he was governor.
And not just a little light in the sky, but I mean, like the length of a football field away.
And there were 11 other guys with him who saw it.
And so he filed the report with NICAP at the time about it.
And so the bottom line he demanded to get briefed in.
And the person who was the head of the CIA on November 19th, 1976, was George H.W. Bush.
That's right.
And George Bush said to him, Look, he said, what I want to do is before I decide whether to brief or not, I want you to agree to leave me on as your CIA director.
I want to become like J. Edgar Hoover was for the FBI.
I want to be able to stay one administration after another.
And if you'll appoint me to be your CIA director, I'll agree never to run for public office anywhere, ever.
And President Carter said, President elect Carter at that time said, No, I've got somebody in mind already.
You know, but so he wouldn't.
So Bush refused to brief him, saying he had no need to know the information and he wasn't going to tell him.
So, President Carter, after his inauguration, contacted the head of the Science and Technology Committee of the House of Representatives and asked them if they would task the Congressional Research Service to find out everything that we knew about the UFOs, you know, what documents we had and what witnesses we had or anything at all.
And so that was assigned to Dr. Marsha Smith, who was the head of the Science and Technology Division.
You know, and people all.
It sounds more impressive than it really was.
People go, oh, well, Dr. Marsha Smith called you at the headquarters, just picked up the phone and called you.
No, what happened is I was a candidate for the Jesuit priesthood at the time.
And I was over going to the mass at Dan Berrigan.
Father Dan Berrigan was the roommate of my Jesuit superior.
And so I actually represented Berrigan, Phil and Liz McAllister, and some of them in some demonstrations and stuff.
And so that I would go over to the Mass when he was in Washington.
And I was at Mass, and there was this one woman, this matron y young woman who was there.
And she came over to me and introduced herself.
And it was Rosemary Chalk.
And she was the executive secretary of the National Academy of Science.
And she said that she wanted to take me to lunch.
So we went to lunch, and she started talking to me.
She's saying that, oh, You know, you've, you know, you, I know you because you did some of the Berrigan stuff.
And she was a big kind of Catholic person.
And so she said, and I looked at you up and I found out these other cases that you did, you know, the Pentagon Papers case and Watergate and all that.
And so she said, you must have always wanted to be a lawyer.
It just must come naturally to you.
I said, no, actually, I wanted to be an astronaut.
And she'd want to be an astronaut.
Why?
You know, and I told her, and she said, Really?
You know, you're so you're really interested in this UFO stuff?
And I said, Yeah.
She said, Look, you should meet my one of my best friends, Marsha Smith.
She's the head of the science and technology division at the Congressional Research Service, and she's been tasked to do this major study for the president.
You know, would you mind if she gives you a call?
And so that's how it happened.
Wow.
So, Marsha Smith called me, and I went to lunch with her, and she said, Ask me if I could get at the Vatican.
Archives as a Jesuit council in Washington.
And probably a better odds.
Yeah, yeah.
It comes through the kitchen window.
Sure.
So I went back and checked with the Father Bill Davis, who was my Jesuit superior.
And he checked with Terry and the other guys that were at the headquarters.
And they ran it up the flagpole to the provincials, the 10 provincials of the Jesuit order in the United States.
And they agreed to have me do this.
That was very important because that isn't, you're a person sort of under authority.
When you're in the Jesuit order.
And so I made sure that we got permission all the way up so I wouldn't run to some crossfire.
Jesuit Archives and Flags00:16:08
Sure.
Yeah.
So the bottom line is that they all agreed for me to do it.
And so I did.
And in that context, I said, I want to get at the classified portions of Project Blue Book.
And she said, Oh, they'll never give us that.
And I said, Well, you've got to ask and tell them who it is and that I want to get this.
And so she said, Well, okay, we'll ask.
And then she got surprised.
And a couple of weeks later, she called me back and said, You know, I'll be darned.
You know, they said you could do it and we'll bring them to this new Madison building, this brand new building that just got finished getting built, actually, in Washington.
There was nobody even in it.
You know, that you just go over there, bring two different photos, official photo IDs, and you can get to see these things.
And that's where I saw the photographs of a crash retrieval.
Wasn't any doubt about what it was.
It was absolutely photographs, you know, of crash retrieval.
Witchcraft, witchcraft.
I don't know.
Don't know.
I don't know.
Do you know where it was?
It was not Roswell because it was snow on the ground.
There was snow on the ground.
You could see in the photos that it had plowed through this field and it plowed up all the dirt into the snow.
And it was stuck in the side of this embankment, you know, that it was kind of like some big earthen bank that was all covered with snow.
It was stuck in the side of it.
So the bottom line is that I saw the photographs.
And so what I did.
Is I saw that there were symbols actually on the bottom or along the bottom of the dome that was at the top of this.
It was a classic saucer, you know, with the dome on top and the big disc.
And so I actually traced every single one of the symbols, you know, traced them.
They told me I couldn't take any notes or anything.
So they took my briefcase away actually before I went in the room.
But I had put a yellow pad.
You smuggled it out.
Well, I. Careful to use those terms.
But the bottom line is, it's just for some reason, when I was, you know, I, when I showed up at the Madison building, that, as I recall, it was a Saturday morning, there are these two suits guys out front of the place.
Like I said, there was nobody in the building.
It was completely empty because they'd just gotten through building it.
Yeah.
You know, and so they hear these two suits, these big no neck guys at the door, you know, and they weren't Air Force.
They weren't OSI guys.
You can tell OSI guys are different, you know.
These are kind of no neck dudes.
No badger.
No.
No, they just, they were there for my ID, not me for their ID.
I see, yeah.
And so I had to show them my ID, and they said, okay, now you go in and you just go down the hall to the left to that elevator there, and you go down to the basement, and you'll see them down there.
So I got in the elevator and was going down.
I just happened to, I just opened up my briefcase, took out a yellow pad, and kind of put it under my arm, kind of lengthwise, just put it under my arm.
Look down, I could see the door open down the hall.
I could see the light coming, I could see these other two suits down there.
So I go all the way down the hall right away.
He said, No, you got to turn over that briefcase.
You can't bring anything in there with you.
And they took it and they said, You can't take any notes or anything.
It's just so there you go.
They were kind of resenting.
You could tell that it was just kind of resentful.
They didn't want to let you in.
Yeah, it didn't seem right that I was getting to see this.
didn't seem to agree with it.
I go in there and here's this room, you know, about 20 feet wide, about maybe 10, 15 feet deep.
And there were these three big cardboard fold out tables with all these little shoe boxes, these big, kind of big shoe boxes, kind of light off green government stuff like that.
And so the bottom line is, and they had these little ties on them, you know, and it was a microfiche machine.
That was there.
So you had to open up the box and take out these little canisters and take the film and put it in the little microfiche machine.
Real high tech stuff.
Yeah.
You know, crank it with your hand.
And so that's how I found the photographs.
Wow.
So, but once I saw the symbols, I said, you know, I want to get this absolutely correct.
So what I did is I took the little yellow pad out and I opened it up to the, and it was weird because I wasn't planning it in any kind of real way, but I just opened it up and I slid the cardboard.
Uh, underneath the inside of the cardboard, and then I traced exactly because I wanted to have the exact order that they were in, sure, the exact shape that they were in.
I traced these and I closed them up and I said, Okay, look, I better get out of here.
I've done you know, I don't know how long I would have been allowed to stay in there, but yeah, but as soon as I found the photographs and I traced them, I said, Okay, I'm getting out of here.
You got what you needed, so so I put them all back and I put the little yellow pen under my arm and I just Walked right back out and I picked up my briefcase and started going down the hall.
And one of the guys goes, Hey, hold it, Sheehan, hold it.
And I turn, I said, What have you got there?
And I said, Oh, it's my briefcase.
I just picked up my briefcase.
It was just there.
And he said, No, under your out.
And they both came over to me, you know, and they kind of, you know, one of them just yanked the yellow pad and he flipped through the pages and of course there's nothing on him.
And so he handed it back to me like that.
So, wow.
So I bring it all back over to.
To the Jesuit headquarters, and I went to Father Davis, who was my superior, and I showed it to him.
I said, Look at this.
I said, I've got absolute, I've seen the photos of this crash retrieval going on.
And that's what he just leaned down and he kind of slid open the drawer on the desk and he takes out this little eight and a half by 11 manila folder with a little clasp on it and handed it to me.
And so I opened up the clasp.
I pulled out this little eight and a half by 11 black and white glossy photo of a UFO.
Whoa.
In full flight.
Right.
And I look at this and I say, Where did you get this?
He said, My sister Dodie gave it to me.
And I'd met Dodie at their little family picnic during the summer.
So I knew her and her husband, Mike.
And I said, Well, where did Dodie get it?
She said, Well, Mike gave it to her.
Mike was the head air traffic controller at the Seattle airport.
Whoa.
And I said, Well, where did Mike get it?
He said, Oh, his best friend gave it to him, who's a pilot that flies cargo all around up in the Northwest.
And he took this with his little brownie camera out of the window of his airplane.
Oh my God.
And he brings it, you know, at that time, you bring it to the drugstore to get your thing developed.
And when he got it back and he realized what he had, he didn't want to report it because he didn't want to lose his job.
Yeah.
So he brings it to his friend, who is the air traffic controller guy.
So, okay, now I've given it to you.
And Mike didn't want to get in any trouble.
So Mike takes it and gives it to Dodie and said, here, give this to your brother.
He's a priest.
Wow, the providence on that is wild.
Isn't that something?
It is something.
Yeah, it's definitely something.
Do you remember?
You've seen the craft, you've seen the photo.
Yes.
Can you describe both of these crafts, what they kind of look like?
There's really one.
Well, the one, there's a crash one.
This was a crash retrieval.
This thing had obviously hit into this field.
You can tell because it had plowed this creek.
Was it a disc?
Yeah, it was a big disc with the dome on top.
It was like a classic flying saw.
Was it a glass dome?
No, no.
It was a metal dome.
It was a metal dome.
And it was clearly to me like a metal craft.
Any panels or?
No, seamless.
No, seamless.
And there were U.S. Air Force guys all around it.
I could see them.
Oh, wow.
Because they were taking photographs of it.
And one of the guys actually had a movie camera.
And you could tell it had those two big canisters on top of it.
Oh, the canisters.
Yeah, the big canisters.
The reels.
So it was like, I don't know, 1950s or late 50s, whatever that was.
But they were.
They were, and you could tell that they were like extremely excited.
It wasn't like this was one of ours and they were all worried about it.
No, yeah.
You could tell they were excited and they were taking photographs of this thing.
So that's when I saw it and I knew then.
Do you still have that drawing?
No, it's such a bummer.
It was with the Jesuit files.
I put it in with the Jesuit files and we brought the Jesuit files with us out to California when we came there after the Iran country case.
And we stored them.
This is one of those terrible stories.
Sure.
We stored them at Riverside, where we were going to be staying temporarily.
And there was one of these big things, these big storms that they have in California, whatever they call them something.
The fire?
No, this was a huge rainstorm.
Oh, I see.
It rained for like 12 days in a row and it flooded up.
And the people down at the storage facility actually took it upon themselves to throw some stuff out.
And we didn't know exactly what they'd all thrown out until we all moved to Jackson Brown's ranch.
Jackson Brown invited us to stay at his ranch up in Santa Barbara.
And then we were teaching at the university because this was just after the Iran country case.
And so we were teaching all about what we discovered during the Iran country case and the off the shelf enterprise and all the assassination programs and everything.
So they got lost.
They had tossed it out.
I knew what they looked like.
And I've redrawn them.
If you don't mind.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
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I'll show you that.
I don't know if they can.
Here, I'll show you.
We'll show it after.
Okay.
Well, here's the.
Could you draw what you saw in the picture?
Yeah, here's the big hillside, and here's this field that's over here, right?
And here's the saucer.
The saucer is stuck.
In the embankment, like this, right?
See?
Yeah.
And along the bottom of the.
And what I did is I blew it up with the little microfiche machine.
I could twist a little dial and get a bigger, bigger picture of it.
And so I could see that all along the bottom, right along the bottom of the disc, right?
The bottom of the dome.
The bottom of the dome, that I could see these symbols that were there.
And so.
Were they etched?
They were etched, they were, they were in the, they were in the craft.
It looked like there was, there was like a depth to the symbols.
Well it was, it was far away.
I mean it was.
It was far away.
Like this, the photograph that was taken, you could see the guys, you could see the little guys uh, you know, running around here uh, you know uh, these two guys were taking photographs.
There was a guy over here that uh, that uh had the, had the camera, you know, with the two little yeah, little balls on the top of it, and he was taking pictures of it.
And they were, they were all around it and it was winter, Because you can see all the snow on the ground, and they had these little fuzzy hoods on, those little guys.
So you could see it.
And so when I saw those symbols, I said, Oh, look, I've got to trace these exactly.
So I blew it up, and here, we'll do this little guy.
And so you have the dome like this, and the big craft like that, right?
And so they're all along here, and they look like this.
Yeah.
And they went all around the whole 180 degrees that I could see of it.
There were a whole sequence of them like this.
And that they were like different combinations of these straight lines like this, pointing in different directions from left to right and right to left.
And then they had these little dots here.
And some of them were like little long lines.
And others were these little horseshoe shaped kind of little U's like that.
And they just repeated like that.
And they went all around.
This looks a little bit what Bob Lazar described on the inside of the craft.
He had this panel which went transparent, and then there's these symbols that appeared.
Well, that's what it was.
That is.
And so I said, you know, I better, because I figured that what we could do, even though I can only see this half of them, that, you know, someday we were going to be able to figure out by putting them into a computer of some sort to figure out what that was.
Yeah.
And so I brought it back to the headquarters.
That is fascinating.
I have seen those symbols.
I don't know where, but I've got so many books in these old files, they always just come across my desk in old files.
You never know what's real and what isn't.
But this to me is very credible.
That's the real deal.
What was your feeling when you saw this?
Because that is, for some people, that would be enough for them to lose their minds.
Well, what it was was that I'd always assumed.
That there, you know, ever since I was really little and I first got to be outdoors at night when the stars would come out.
And when I realized what stars were, that they were like suns with planets.
Obviously, they must have planets going on because if they're like suns like ours, you know, they must have these planets and there's people probably on them, you know.
And I never thought much about what the people would be like.
I just thought it was fascinating the perspective of being down here.
Like sitting in the grass in my yard and looking up and seeing these stars and saying, Look at how weird it is of all of what we're doing down here, running around, not even paying attention to that, you know, in the in that, but doing these weird things to each other, you know, without taking into account, you know, the kind of perspective that this really brought to us.
And so I'd always been confident it was true.
Then when I, I guess, the Betty and Barney Hill thing, I was really fascinated by that and got a copy of that incident at Exeter and read it.
Fuller's thing, and I was always kind of keeping track of all of this.
And that I would always, whenever I was out at night, I would always kind of take time to step aside and just stop and skywatch, look up at the stars, and pick out a particular star.
And just, I realized when I was young that the stars pulse, you know, and the planets don't.
You know, the planets just are just a beam of light like that.
That's how I could tell the difference.
I would pick out one star and it was just sort of pulsing.
And I always kind of had the sense of like maybe, maybe that's like Morse code or something.
Maybe they're kind of sending little, little messages to us and we just don't, haven't kind of figured out how to interpret those things yet.
And so, the bottom line is I'd always been that way.
And so when I saw this, When I saw this thing, I looked at it, my feeling was just like, yeah, there it is.
You know, there it is.
Agency Contact with Ron Hubbard00:14:19
There's one of them right there, you know.
And I'd seen almost any photograph or anything that I've ever seen that was purported to be one, I would find it and look at it and say, how are we doing on getting these things identified?
So when I saw this thing, and I said, yeah, that's one of them right there.
And so, but it was the first time I'd seen the symbols like that.
I mean, it's something to see it in the setting that you saw it in, too.
I think that that makes it, you know, Much more important as a, you know.
It's official.
Exactly.
This was official.
These were the files.
This isn't in some obscure magazine or, you know, or.
These were the classified blue book stuff that they brought.
And so this is one of the first things that I told, what's his head, in the Arrow office that, what's his name?
Sean Kirkpatrick.
Yeah, it was the first thing I told him.
I said, you know, I've seen it.
You know, I saw them directly, and this was a crash retrieval.
I said, you know, so there's a direct, not exactly eyewitness, but there's also video apparently.
I said, they've got to have the photographs.
Yeah, and the videos.
And they've got to have the records of having brought them to Washington.
That's right.
They've got to have those records.
And so there's four guys.
Saper trail.
Because I saw the two guys at the front door and the two guys downstairs.
So there's records there, you know, they'll have all their reports.
So those are all there, you know.
So, when he published this thing saying they had no evidence of any sort, had no one had ever given them any information or evidence.
And I told them all about Clifford Stone and all about my interviewing Clifford Stone for the disclosure project and said, get all of his records, find out what his name was.
So, I laid the stuff out in detail to them, you know?
That's remarkable.
Yeah.
It's remarkable that it's so close yet so far.
Yeah.
You know, it's like right under their noses.
And yet, we're acting like we're looking in space and at the bottom of the ocean.
And it's like, hey, it's in a shoebox somewhere under your feet.
Well, the thing that was weird about it is that Father Davis was so impressed by this that what he did is he talked to the other people at Jesuit headquarters, and we got permission to go to the Washington Interreligious Staff. Council in Washington, D.C., that had representatives of the major 54 major religious denominations in the United States and made an official presentation to them about this,
asking them to put together a task force so that we could start getting all the churches and synagogues and stuff together in temples to come to grips with this thing.
I remember Judy Stone was the head of that at the time, and she kind of stared around the room and she said, Well, are there any other suggestions?
They just were not going anywhere near this.
But the Jesuits were all supportive of trying to get them to see.
Very intellectual, the Jesuits, though.
They're all very intelligent.
There's that.
Yeah, that they're able to perhaps fit that into their ontology.
Sure.
Whereas it's much harder for, I think, some other people.
Well, they're smart enough to alter their ontology.
Exactly.
To take it into account once they've got it.
Yeah.
How does this.
That's their job, is to reform the church.
You know, speaking of Jesuits and religion and UAPs, I mean, there's also, you know, this connection between not only Scientology and the UAP subject, but also Mormon connection as well in intelligence specifically.
You know, and we can get into each of those separately, but I'd like to start with the Mormons.
That was something we didn't talk about last night either, but I thought it was really interesting.
Because obviously, you have Dugway that's out there, which is Area 52, which is like, you know, seems to be one of the most interesting places, you know, save S4, perhaps.
But you also have BYU that's there.
You've got all this sort of, you know, and there's a long history of there was even a civil case against the FBI for, I think it was discrimination because they were only hiring Mormons at one point.
They were pretty close.
Yeah.
They were pretty close.
I actually did a case on that.
Really?
Yeah.
There was a Mormon guy who had been approached by the FBI.
No, he was approached by the CIA actually to plant false intelligence information with Russians.
Some Russians had approached him for some, I don't know exactly what he was doing, but he got approached.
And so the CIA approached him to salt in false information so they could track where that false information went.
Correct.
And so they could figure out the chain.
And so, and it turns out someone reported him to the FBI and the FBI arrested him.
All right.
And he went to his local bishop in the Mormon church and told him all about this.
And it was the Mormon bishop that turned on him.
Wow.
And actually, it's the guy who contacted the FBI on him when he told him about it.
And so I got contacted by some of the hierarchy in the Mormon church because I had done the cases.
I did the case for the Church of Scientology people who got subpoenaed in New York.
To be dragged into a grand jury up in New York.
And I was upset about the fact that they were, that the Justice Department was trying to compel them to reveal information about the internal workings of the church.
And so I went up and did the case to quash that subpoena.
And that's why I got asked eventually to be the lawyer for L. Ron Hubbard and his wife, Susan.
Anyway, long story.
We'll get into that after.
Yeah, yeah.
But so the bottom line Put a pin there.
Yeah, yeah.
But the bottom line is, so I had done that case.
And so that they contacted me to say, look, can't you make some kind of an argument that that was a violation of his priest penitent kind of confessional relationship with his bishop?
And that the FBI didn't have any right to do that.
Uh, what I did instead is I brought in a fellow who I'd also been approached by, A fellow named Ron Rewald.
Ron Rewald was a CIA guy who actually ran a hello phone base for the agency out of Hawaii that pretended to be a private investment firm.
And CIA guys would be given credentials being agents for his investment firm.
And they were running around all over Asia spying, you know?
And it's a funny story.
His brother comes walking into my office at Jesuit headquarters.
Pleading with me to do something to help him because he'd been arrested out in Hawaii.
And what had happened is that this holophone operation had been set up by the agency as a front for giving credentials, false credentials, to these alleged investment agents that he worked with that ran around spying on people in Asia.
And what happened is he only had six investors in his investment firm.
And one of them was the head of Six Pack, the Sixth Fleet, the Admiral, one of them was the head of the CIA in Hawaii, another one was the Of one of the major generals there.
He had this kind of select group of hand picked government officials that he was benefiting by having this private investment firm as the front for these other guys.
And it turns out that he gets contacted by the agency and they said, you know, this is not good to have just these guys.
This is kind of suspicious.
You know, you ought to have more investors in this.
So he ends up putting an ad in the newspaper.
In a Honolulu newspaper advertising his private investment firm, guaranteeing you 100% return on your money every year, annually, right?
In the head of the Bunko Squad, the Honolulu Police Department, someone reports this to him.
So, look at what it is.
And so he drives up to this guy's estate, this Ron Rewald estate, and here are these Arabian horses racing in Lamborghini sports cars all over.
And so he says, this guy's a total fraud.
And he arrested him and brings him down and puts him in the slammer down.
And so he's freaking out around Rewall trying to tell him, say, look, I can't tell you this, but I work for the agency.
This is an operation you need to contact.
And of course, the agency denied knowing anything about it.
Of course.
And so he's freaking out and he calls his brother to come to Hawaii to help him.
So his brother gets briefed in on this and he comes to me at Jesuit headquarters.
I don't know why exactly, but anyway, he ended up coming to me.
And I said, look, I don't necessarily believe your brother, are you, that he's really running a legit.
Hello, phone place for the agency.
You're going to have to bring me some kind of documentation to this.
So he goes back and talks to his brother and he tells him where these documents are and he brings them back to me.
And here they are.
They're copies of the Japanese blueprints for the bullet train that they'd heisted somewhere.
Also, all the stuff about Bogue Rights, you know, going into Laos and Cambodia looking for our POWs.
And it was all run by the agency.
And so I said, Oh, this is the real deal.
And so I started doing something to try to help him.
And I realized that when I got contacted by this, the Mormon, some of the Mormon leadership, because I was at Jesuit headquarters, right?
And so I said, oh, what I can do is have this guy, Ron Rewald, flown in to the Eastern District of Virginia, which is the CIA court, the federal district court for the Eastern District.
Everybody knows us, the agency that kind of runs it.
And so I'd have him flown in.
And have him testify on behalf of the Mormon guy that they did the same thing to him, that he was a full agency guy and they lied and wouldn't acknowledge that he was there.
And so there was credible evidence to support the fact that what this other guy was saying was true.
And so in comes Ron Rewald, and the two assistant U.S. attorneys show up opposing my being able to present him, asserting that it would reveal national security information.
And so the judge said, Oh, so that you're acknowledging then that Mr. McCall is India?
They said, No, no, we're not acknowledging that he really is a CIA person, but we're asserting national security.
Mr. Sheehan can't talk to him.
He doesn't have an adequate security clearance.
And so the judge says to me, Mr. Sheehan, what kind of a security clearance would you like?
And I said, A Q clearance, Your Honor.
I'll take a Q clearance.
And he said, Good, you have it.
So I got issued an A Q clearance by the Eastern District.
Not that it would have held up anywhere.
At least what I got to.
Talked with him at great length about all the stuff that they were doing.
Yeah.
And that's how I got to meet Bo Grice, you know, who was running those POW field.
But that's, I guess, how you found out that there was a long tie between recruiting Mormons.
That's right.
You know, part of that goes into their specific belief system as well, allows for life on other planets.
Yes.
Not necessarily non human.
Because that's how it started.
I mean, that.
That's how the Mormon church started these beings of light.
Yes.
Actually presenting Joseph Smith with these plaques, these plates that had all these writing and stuff on them.
Yeah.
And that said that they were seeding life on these other planets, human life.
Yeah.
So, you know, already in their own religious belief, they're already inclined to expand their universal or galactic awareness into other beings.
Yeah.
Secondly, they don't smoke, they don't drink, they don't swear.
They're all ready for the FBI.
They don't drink caffeine.
Yeah.
They don't party.
They're all ready for the FBI.
And lastly, collateral.
Yeah.
They have large families.
Yes.
And so you look at this and you're like, and I mean, you know, also ethnically speaking, they're all white guys.
And that's like, it's also the FBI is very happy with them.
Exactly.
And crew cuts.
Yeah.
They also have crew cuts.
Exactly.
All three letter agencies, I would say.
Well, the FBI.
FBI, especially.
Specifically, FBI.
You can tell if he be, you know, right across the street.
Right.
You know, they fit the bills.
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they do.
So, you know, because I've heard through reports that I've read that there was like active recruiting at BYU and that the funnel to go into these three letter agencies was quite direct.
Like it was pretty, like you apply, you're in.
It was just like Yale with the agency.
Yeah.
You know, the Yaleys lean in heavy on the agency.
They tried some of the recruiting at Harvard, it didn't work as well.
But Yale is very responsive, Skull and Bones, especially.
Yeah, I see.
They're pre selected, you know.
Yeah, so that's really interesting when you can have trustworthy people like that work in those capacities around these secret, you know, deep underground military bases and makes it really interesting.
Now, transitioning into Scientology, you'd mentioned quickly in passing that you were offered to represent L. Ron Hubbard.
Yes.
Now, that's quite the opportunity.
Well, it's interesting.
Interreligious Staff Council00:02:34
The way that it happened.
Is that when I came to Jesuit headquarters, they came up to Harvard Div School to ask me to come down to Washington to be legal counsel for the Jesuits.
And I had, when I arrived, one of the first things I did is I went over and saw Bob Dreinan.
Father Bob Dreinan was a Jesuit priest who was the congressman from Brookline outside of Boston.
And he was the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.
So, I had to go over to see him on another thing.
We were opposing Senate Bill one, which was this big Senate bill that was prepared by Richard Nixon just after he came in.
And he'd had Rehnquist as a special assistant attorney general redraft the entire federal criminal code into this kind of totally reactionary, hardcore, sort of like Project 2025 back then, but to redraft the entire federal criminal code.
And so we were opposing that.
And we had helped organize this coalition of 81 different.
Federal organizations, citizens' groups to oppose it.
So I went over to see Bob Drynan as the head of the Judiciary Committee to get them to bottle up the Senate bill on the House side and just not let it even go to the floor.
And so when I was there talking, I was saying, why is it that down here in Washington, you got the Greenpeace for all the environmentalists, you got the National Organization for Women, you got the ACLU?
Why don't the churches have some kind of organization, collective organization?
For dealing with public policy things.
You know, we've got some basic values, you know, human rights values, et cetera.
And he said, Oh, well, you know, that they're afraid of the church and state, you know, blending together.
And I said, Well, the fundamentalists aren't paying any attention to that.
You know, why aren't the liberals and progressives doing anything?
He said, Well, you know, that they're really leery about the Catholic Church because of the long history of the Catholic Church dominating in all of Western civilization for a thousand years, you know, and especially the Jesuits.
And so I said, Well, look, let me.
Tried to reach out to some of the folks to see if we can get past that.
And so I did.
I went and met with Rabbi David Saperstein of the Union of American Hebrew Congregation.
I met with Joe Elders over at the Methodists and met with Bob Elpern over at the Unitarians.
I went around to actually meet the people.
And so we organized a thing called the Washington Interreligious Staff Council.