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Feb. 9, 2000 - Bill Cooper
01:01:44
Waco – A New Revelation #2
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and sorrow.
Yet I am good and open, and good and warm,
and sweet, and warm.
And I am good and open, and good and warm,
and sweet, and warm.
And I am good and open, and good and warm,
and sweet, and warm.
And I am good and open, and good and warm,
and sweet, and warm.
Oh! Oh!
the you're listening to the all over the time i'm william
cooper folks if you love one of the check out the number one
source of news in the whole world
the best news that there is anywhere william cooper dot net
WilliamCooper.net.
One more time.
WilliamCooper.net.
For those of you living in the Round Valley, we are getting a new antenna for 101.1 FM, which should triple our signal strength.
Just the antenna alone.
We're not going to add any more power.
We're at the maximum legal power that we can do, but we can add an antenna that will multiply the signal strength by about three times.
We also have now our amplifier for Channel 15 for the Round Valley TV.
And that's cost us a bunch of money.
And it's being built from scratch, especially for us.
It was hard to find.
It took us a long time.
And I've got to publicly thank Scott Becker for that.
Now stay tuned for Part 2.
Waco, a new revelation.
And make sure, folks, you buy the videotape.
We'll tell you where to get it tomorrow night.
They take the new world army.
Never in human history has so few taken so much from so many as America's Illuminati and their warlords of Wall
Street and Verizon.
In just eight years, these clansters and international government gangsters took us from the greatest predator
nation to the largest debtor nation on earth.
Our standard of living has dropped like a rock for four out of every five Americans.
They have foreclosed on our homes, our farms, our factories.
They've exported your jobs and surrendered our arms.
They want it more!
New World Order!
New World Order, beat!
Fight the race, fight for the world, fight for justice!
The Illuminati wants you to be a slave.
From birth to grave.
The banksters own the Federal Reserve.
It's private.
They own it.
It's neither federal nor a reserve.
The cashers make that fiat-funny-money stuff you call dollars.
For two pennies.
They lend it back to us at gold-based values.
They charge you interest.
You get the lick.
They get the interest.
They get the gold.
You get the job.
They watch this.
A new order.
I mean you have in essence a crime scene that was so seriously flawed through ignorance
or through an error of an elite mentality or in fact there was a conscious decision
made to not collect evidence for any sort of serious examination other than to try and
prove that the Davidians had weaponry and firepower enough to kill federal agents.
and I'll see you next time.
Some of these bodies exhibited characteristics of perhaps being shot.
Did anyone fire from any other location?
The information that we've always been given was that there was no federal gunfire on the day of April 19th.
Well, in reviewing the photographs and the 302s, the statements in them, I would say
there are some questions that need to be answered.
The FBI named the sniper positions Sierra 1, Sierra 2, and Sierra 3.
On April 19th, FBI Special Agent Charles Riley stated in his after-action report that he had heard shots fired that morning from Sniper Position Number One, the undercover house.
The position was occupied by the Blue Sniper Team, led by Special Agent Lon Horiochi.
Horiochi stated that neither he nor his snipers fired their weapons on April 19th.
The fact that Agent Hiroki states in his reel too that the sniper at CR-1, which was the undercover house, did not fire and there is a shell casing, an expended shell casing there visible on the floor, would also raise a question.
Four expended shell casings are later found at CR-1, the location of Agent Horiyoshi's blue sniper team.
What makes this particularly interesting is Mr. Horiuchi coincidentally happens to be the FBI agent who shot and killed Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge and has been charged with manslaughter by the state of Idaho.
In August 1992, white separatists Randy and Vicki Weaver were involved in a standoff with the FBI at their mountain home.
Agent Horiuchi shot and killed Vicky Weaver, who was standing in the window of the door holding her 10-month-old daughter.
She was standing there holding the baby in her arms, holding the door so we could get in after they'd wounded me.
And this guy is still running free.
According to an internal federal government investigation, Horiuchi's shot is termed unconstitutional.
Lon Horiuchi was never tried.
Seven months later, he was the leader of the blue sniper team at Waco, accompanied by most of the FBI team from Ruby Ridge.
Our desire was to get them out, to use non-lethal means in a systematic manner, so that they would come before the bar and face justice.
We did not want this to occur.
At some point, we had just upped the ante.
He was continually fortifying He was demanding and was seeking provocation to get into a shootout with us, which we were refusing to do.
According to the FBI's on-site activity log, at 9.03 a.m., FBI command advised Sierra 2 that an unknown subject could be seen traveling on foot at the back of the building.
In this aerial photo taken at approximately 9 a.m., a Davidian appears to be leaving the building and walking toward the back of the compound.
The log indicates that Falcon 2, an FBI helicopter, took off to intercept the subject.
As it approaches Mount Carmel, several flashes can be seen coming from the side of the helicopter.
Dr. Edward Allard, a former supervising scientist in video and television imagery at the U.S.A.
government's Ninth Vision Directorate, examined the helicopter footage and concludes that the flashes are gunfire.
When we analyze these flashes, as we have done, in 160th of a second time frames, it appears that there's three shots coming from the helicopter.
But in fact, each one of those three shots can be broken down into 160th time frames, 60th of a second, and we find, for instance, in the first flash, there's five separate shots being fired.
And it's indicative of a machine gun that's firing at about 600 rounds per minute.
In this view of one of the FBI's helicopters, a pedestal mounted machine gun can be clearly seen in the doorway.
FBI agents did not return any fire throughout the entire day, in spite of being fired upon numerous times by occupants of the compound.
On the other hand, since this is on a helicopter, and people might say that it's reflections from the windshield, It's impossible for these shots that you're seeing with your own eyes to be solar reflections, because if it were so, the helicopter would have to be violently moving back and forth like a mirror in your hand.
This is impossible.
So it's, in our opinion, it's clearly machine gun fire from the helicopter.
In coming out, the conversation that I remember was, well, if we come out, we'll be shot.
According to the autopsy reports, Philip Henry was shot several times in the chest, shoulder, and head.
Jimmy Riddle was shot once in the forehead.
Neither of them had soot accumulation in their trachea or bronchial tubes or carbon monoxide in their blood, indicating that they died before the fire started.
Later when I saw the autopsy report and seeing that he died of a gunshot wound to the head, it made me wonder if it was in fact the snipers that were In the barn, garage, that was in the back of the property.
The autopsy reports also indicated extensive body mutilation to Philip Henry and Jimmy Riddle.
The entire right side of Riddle's body, from the shoulder to the hip, had been torn away.
In previous testimony, Dr. Nizam Firwani, the medical examiner, observed that this could
have been the result of the collapse of the building or an encounter with a tank tread.
Philip Henry's body was interred during the year following his death.
However, a new autopsy was requested by Jimmy Riddle's relatives to settle the circumstances surrounding the missing portion of Riddle's body and the gunshot wound to his head.
Dr. Ron Grazier, the forensic pathologist who conducted the examination, concluded in his findings that the damage to Riddle's skeletal remains is consistent with a tank having torn the body apart.
A forensic examination of the bullet entry wound in Jimmy Riddle's skull could not be conducted because the evidentiary portion of the skull was missing.
Dr. Pierwani performed the original autopsy and was asked to provide a certified copy of his report for comparison.
According to Riddle's relatives, the local Texas authorities and U.S.
Marshals refused to allow Dr. Pierwani to turn over the documents.
We got to Dr. Periwani's office trying to get some information on my brother Jimmy Riddle.
Dr. Periwani told me that he didn't know why they kept trying to keep the information from us.
He didn't know what they were hiding and that he had the information but he was ordered by the U.S.
Marshals and the J.P.s not to release any information to me.
While Americans were watching events unfold at the front of the building, the FBI's infrared video shows what took place at the rear of the structure.
What a flare really does is it takes invisible radiation, which is called infrared radiation, and it converts it into visual radiation, you might say, that we can see with the eye.
What we have here is a A tank-infantry type of an operation.
As the tank moves forward, two men have dropped out of the escape hatch.
They roll over, and as they roll over, they open up with automatic gunfire.
We've measured the actual time of the individual flashes, and they occur at a fraction of a second.
In some cases, a thirtieth of a second.
There is absolutely nothing in nature that can cause thermal flashes to occur in a thirtieth of a second.
Somebody related or who had prepared a film or analyzed the film, representatives of the department and representatives of the FBI went over it in detail and concluded that there was no basis for suggesting that shots had been fired.
As the tank crushes the roof of the gymnasium, gunfire can be seen streaming into the dining room from positions in the courtyard.
I stopped toning after about 62 individual shots.
Interviewed on NBC's Meet the Press on May 4, 1997, FBI Director Louis Friess stated that no shots were...
...
...Meet the Press on May 4, 1997.
FBI Director Lewis Priest stated that no shots were fired by any federal agents outside of the compound, and that allegations raised about gunfire seem to be based on some inferences from infrared flash patterns and heat patterns.
I think the overwhelming evidence clearly shows that no shots were fired.
It's indicative of sunlight reflecting off something and registering on the flare.
It could be a thermal pattern.
If it were a thermal pattern, there is nothing that persists from that.
Right.
So therefore, it is more likely to have been reflected light off of something shiny in which the sunlight now gives an apparent temperature rise.
From the basic physics, it's safe to say that it's impossible for the Waco FLIR can detect any solar reflection of any kind.
On our wish list as investigators was taking a harder look at the FLIR.
The congressional staff was never able to find or take advantage of a genuine FLIR expert to watch the FLIR video with us and to understand exactly what we were seeing.
By comparison, this Department of Defense FLIR video, taken in Somalia in October of 1993 as troops exit a helicopter, shows gunfire similar to the thermal signature on the FLIR videotape at Waco.
A former analyst from the U.S.
US intelligence community, Maurice Cox, tested the FBI's claim of flying the principles of
solar geometry.
For an aircraft flying at an altitude of 9,000 feet, a flash anomaly occurring on the ground
would be visible in an area only 100 feet wide.
you Frame-by-frame measurements of the FLIR videotape showed a repetition of 10 flashes per second, the same rate as a machine gun firing at 600 rounds per minute.
According to the Sunlight Reflections Report, in order to duplicate these multiple flashes, the reflected surfaces would have to be exactly the same shape and size, and positioned in an array too precise to occur by chance.
To record sunlight reflections at 10 flashes per second, the FDI small aircraft would have had to travel at Mach 1.8, nearly twice the speed of sound.
The Sun Reflection Report concluded that the flash signatures on the Waco flare video could only have been caused by gunfire.
In January 1999, Mr. Cox challenged Director Frey and Bureau scientists to disprove his findings.
They did not respond.
If someone comes to me to understand that data, I need to tell them the uncertainty associated with it.
If the government is only telling them, uh, this was not a field of fire.
Well, the government is refusing to look at this, and anybody with their pointed eyes could see, well, something's going on here.
You know, when you think of the fact that shooting automatic weapons fire into a building with children in it, there's something wrong.
Dr. Allard has stated that this video shows gunfire being directed into Mount Carmel from the outside of Mount Carmel on April 19th.
The only people that could have come from would have been federal agents.
Other flashes can be detected on the clear tape within an hour of the fire, such as this detonation in the courtyard, which has a thermal signature that is consistent with a hand grenade exploding.
And more gunfire can be seen near this fence.
But if the FBI's claim is true, and the hostage rescue team didn't fire at Branch Davidians, then there is only one other possibility.
According to what we saw written in the Book of Mayhem, we were to undergo a military-style attack.
We were to be attacked by tanks and people from the military.
On the use of military personnel and heavy equipment against U.S.
citizens, other questions linger.
How much was used and why?
There was concern expressed that the FBI had only one hostage rescue team and they were tiring.
Do you recall that conversation and that meeting?
I recall, I believe I asked for that meeting, yes.
On April 14th, just five days before the fire, a meeting was held between Attorney General Janet Reno, the FBI command team, and Special Forces Commanders Brigadier General Peter J. Spumacher and Colonel Gerald Boykin of Delta Force.
The purpose of this meeting was to convince Reno to authorize a final assault at Waco.
Military is trained to find, fix, and destroy the enemy.
You don't worry about warning Your military enemy of constitutional rights.
What is generally known or known in public as the Delta Force is in reality called Combat Applications Group.
So anybody who asks about Delta will get told with a straight face by the Army that no such organization exists.
What organization does exist is Combat Applications Group and they're Earlier in an opening I gave this morning with regard to the Posse Comitatus Act.
Just to refresh my colleague's memory, the Posse Comitatus statute is a criminal statute that states that it's a crime to use any part of the Army or Air Force to enforce the laws of the land unless authorized by Congress or the Constitution.
There is, in my judgment, It is absolutely clear that no law was violated, no action was taken that comes close to violating Posse Commissariat or any other law.
General Huffman, do you agree with that?
Congressman, so far as the Army's involvement in this, I would say that is correct.
Are we getting any help from the military?
The question is are we getting any help from the military?
The question is are we getting help from the Delta team, and we're not.
In mid-March 1993, I attended a senior executive staff meeting at CIA headquarters,
and it involved senior agency management along with the liaison officers from the U.S. military.
military and specifically from Delta Group.
The briefing centered on Delta's operations in Waco, Texas.
This previously classified military document confirms the presence of Delta Force at Mount Carmel.
With approval of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, an observer was deployed to the scene on March 21st, 1993, accompanied by three other operators, also characterized as observers.
One particular soldier was questioned by a member of the hearing and pressed and
pressed.
He did not want to reveal even the existence of Delta Force and finally had to admit that they were present.
Originally I was told that there were just going to be one or two Delta personnel there as observers,
but during the briefing it was mentioned that there was over ten Delta operators at Waco, Texas
and they were not there merely as observers, but would be participating in any type of operational
operational or tactical effort against the British civilians.
My understanding is that in some way, the U.S.
military, Delta Force, were advising the hostage rescue team from inside the tanks, or inside the Brady fighting units, or were present at the sniper posts.
to provide support or assistance.
And those types of activities to me would be forward deployed.
They were not back at a conference room or table giving advice or saying you ought to think about this.
They were out there working shoulder-to-shoulder with the HRT.
Approximately a year after the Waco incident, I was deployed overseas in Europe.
And I had the chance to meet some of the Delta operators that I had met on previous assignments.
They had told me, on several different occasions through my meetings with them in Europe, that not only were they forwardly deployed at Waco Tessus, but they were actually involved in a gunfight with the British civilians.
When you see the individuals roll out from the tank and come around the side and start shooting into the building, what they're doing is they're fending the vehicle.
If HRT or Combat Applications Group, whoever would pull the triggers, expected resistance, expected shots to be fired, then their moves on April 19th made tactical sense.
But I did talk to some Combat Applications Group guys, and they did confirm that yes, portions of D-Squadron were there pulling triggers.
There's no doubt in my mind that the flashes on Thursday Uh, was fire from a semi-automatic or automatic weapons fire being returned into the building.
I mean, it's inconsistent to even think otherwise.
You, uh, there were people here on the ground with automatic weapons, and clashes such as that only come from one train.
It comes from, uh, rifle barrels that are, that are firing back into the building.
There were operators that penetrated the, uh, the buildings on several occasions, planning surveillance devices, listening devices, uh, sensors.
And on one occasion, I believe it was April 17th, late 17th, early 18th.
A crash was actually within six feet of one of the operators.
They radioed back to the attack operations center for permission to grab him.
Within minutes, the word came back to the Justice Department, no, we already have a plan in place.
That plan, of course, seemed to happen on April 19th.
To me, that would be an offensive gesture.
When you enter someone's home, that's pretty offensive.
I personally have a problem with that.
I think that it violates everything that I've been taught that you don't use the military against civilian personnel in this country.
Are there reports that the military Delta Force may have been involved in one way or another?
Will you make an inquiry into that as well?
We will pursue any issue that is in question.
I will not let this become a showtribe with law enforcement as the defendant.
These Waco hearings must not degenerate into a kangaroo court.
It is unfair for us today to look at what law enforcement did at Waco in a vacuum.
And it is unfair to twist the facts, making law enforcement the villain and David Koresh the lawbreaker, the victim.
David Koresh, you may not think he was innocent.
The mothers and the fathers of the children you may not think were innocent.
But those 17 children that died here were truly innocent.
We had heard during the meeting various scenarios that they were going to use down in Waco, Texas to try to bring a speedy recovery or a speedy end to what was taking place down there.
And at that time gas was talked about.
A couple other non-racial situations were talked about.
And the primary concern around the table was a lot of the people, a lot of the British civilians that were inside the building were worrying or did not want to end their lives in such a fashion, especially the 17 children that were down there.
This is God's gift.
On the throne, do that act.
Point.
Where's God's gift?
He's going to save you.
Well, people ask why we didn't let the children out.
If they saw all that was happening, and they were in there with their children, would they have sent them out to the animals outside that were shooting at them and doing all those terrible things?
No.
Federal law enforcement officers Obviously did make some tactical errors prior to and during this tragic incident.
And I hope this body, somebody, holds them accountable.
Please.
I'm pleading with you.
Somebody out there in the federal government still screwed up big time.
Okay?
But they didn't start this fire.
Based upon the ATF's arson investigation, accelerants were used at all points of origin of the fire.
There is no disagreement between us that this fire was intentionally started inside the compound by the people in there using flammable liquids as installments.
I don't remember who it was, but he was pouring this liquid on the floor.
Pablo was saying, don't pour it inside, pour it outside.
Folks, I have to break in here and tell you that the fire was started Inside the building by flamethrowing tanks and by members of Delta Force and the FBI HRT who went in the building and poured accelerants around the building and then set them on fire.
We have the proof on videotape.
And we are in the process of assembling that tape for release to the public.
So, you have to be careful when you listen to these scum-sucking, lying, puke-faced, Nazi, Gestapo, jack-booted thugs.
Sometimes they tell the truth, but you don't know how to distinguish that the truth itself can be a lie.
It was clear to us from listening to those tapes that the government was going to be able to prove that the Davidians,
at least some of the Davidians, had a plan, and that some of the Davidians were aware of his plan.
I'm sure that the FBI down there had a lot of fiber-optic audio and visual equipment installed in the building there.
I'm sure they knew exactly what the various Davidian plans were, what their intentions were, if there was an attack against the building, such as a gas attack like that.
They believed we were going to try to enter the compound.
And the way the overhear sounded, like if there was one comment, we're going to wait until they come in before we light them.
Why in the world would the FBI make the assault knowing that information?
The borderline's on criminal misconduct for the FBI to make that assault when they knew that he was going to respond like that, particularly on the most windy day of the year.
The F.B.I.
claimed that it never used... The F.B.I.
claimed that it never used pyrotechnic CS rounds, munitions capable of starting a fire.
However, in this footage made prior to the fire.
According to CS expert, Colonel Rex Applegate, any tear gas that creates smoke is considered
pyrotechnic.
you There's been some unfortunate reporting talking about that if tear gas were utilized, it would deprive the children of oxygen and it perhaps could be fatal.
What they were describing is not the type of tear gas that we are using.
We're using a non-pyrotechnic type tear gas, which does not deprive them of oxygen, so it is not a lethal type gas.
This is the U.S.
military Mark 651CS projectile, recovered in the aftermath of the Mount Carmel fire.
It is pyrotechnic and has a burning time of 25 to 30 seconds.
It generates a distinctive cloud of white smoke.
I am very, very troubled by the information I received this week suggesting that pyrotechnic devices may have been used in the early morning hours on April the 19th, 1993 at Waco.
At this time, all available indications are that the devices were not directed at the main wooden compound, were discharged several hours before the fire started, and were not the cause of the fire.
In the fall of 1998, unprecedented access to the Waco evidence lockers was granted.
The pyrotechnic projectiles identified in the crime scene photos were missing from the evidence boxes.
However, two additional 40mm munitions were found.
These devices are identified by the manufacturer's literature as pyrotechnic rounds.
They were found in the rubble behind the compound.
These munitions were examined and the preliminary results indicated these devices may
have passed through the wood structure.
I'm not embarrassed.
I'm very, very obsessed.
The arson report fails to identify the specific instruments used to ignite the fires or the individuals that might have used those instruments.
As a result, no arson charges were ever filed against any of the Branch Davidians.
What is not covered in the arson report is the presence of the government's own pyrotechnic devices at the points of origin of the fire.
This flashbang device, for example, was found in the rubble of the dining room.
The flash that results as the detonation of this charge can cause a fire in any area where there is a high concentration of volatile vapors.
In the evidence locker, there are six pyrotechnic flashbang grenades mislabeled as silencers or gun parts.
According to the Texas Department of Public Safety, they were found in the southwest corner of the building The dining room and the chapel, all three points of origin of the fire.
Now maybe the government, the FBI, the ATF, did some wrong things.
But they didn't light the fire.
They didn't start the fire.
That is not one of these questions that is very debatable.
I have to break in here and tell you folks that that is Congressman Schumer, probably one of the greatest, most despicable liars that's ever lived.
He easily surpasses William Jefferson Clinton, whom we all know is probably one of the greatest liars that ever lived.
He is making those statements subjectively, not objectively, and not based upon the evidence.
In other words, he's trying to browbeat the witnesses.
Mr. Schumer is the liar.
There are times when you cannot keep your job and put alternative explanations for DAEA on the table.
Any of us can think about, yeah, we'll stay in a building and burn it up.
I don't think many people would do it.
And I don't understand why they didn't come out.
At 1210 p.m.
the FLIR videotape shows at least two automatic weapons being fired into the back of the burning dining room.
the only undamaged asset from the building.
What we have is we have 10 firing automatic weapons.
And they're firing into the burning buildings.
And like some sort of a cowboy movie, they're retreating down the building and firing as they're retreating.
I cannot remember something more sickening that I had to do to witness this.
According to the Justice Department report, at least 15 people were found shot to death at this location.
The FBI conducted ballistic tests, which the Justice Department later termed inconclusive and rudimentary at best.
Whether or not you argue that some people committed suicide, yes that may be, but I would say the majority of the people The bodies that I saw were clear-cut homicide victims.
when there was shooting going on and things like that. It's kind of tongue in cheek that
then turned around and said, why didn't you come out?
As a peace officer, you're trained to killing people and taking someone's life.
is the absolute last thing that you ever want to do.
Period.
You signed on to help people.
You didn't sign on to kill them.
If the opinion is rendered that there was no shot fired from any other location other than from within the building, i.e.
the branch civilians shot themselves through suicide or homicide, Then the government is left with a position that we are not going to give ballistics tests on anyone's weapons, whether they be bureau officials or other officials that might have been on the scene.
The forensic evidence on the bodies themselves is very troubling.
The bodies were preserved in a frozen or near-frozen state inside two trailers for the purpose of examination.
For some reason, those trailers, who were under the control of the FBI, were allowed to not have any electricity running to them, and the bodies deteriorated beyond which any sort of forensic evidence could be gathered.
We were very, very troubled by that.
The crime scene was declared a biohazard.
And since the F.B.I.
predetermined that this was a mass suicide, the crime scene investigators were instructed to sift, wash, and bleach the evidence associated with the bodies, destroying much of its evidentiary value.
I'm grinding up all the evidence I can.
And I'm saying to myself, what in the hell are they doing that for?
Except for, are they conveniently trying to cover up something that they don't want the public to know?
During the siege, Some of the women and all of the children were sent to the bunker located in the center of the compound.
The bunker was an old church records vault which had survived a fire several years before.
It is here that the remains of some of the women and the young children were found.
Based on the fact that the majority of the women and children protected themselves by dousing themselves with water and blankets, trying to keep the smoke to a minimum.
Trying to prolong themselves or life in a nearly fireproof container clearly demonstrates that they weren't embracing the flame, that they were trying to flee the flame.
According to their autopsy reports, some of the children were still alive during the fire.
But based upon the condition of their bodies there was evidence of a deadly explosion.
The fireball was created by a ruptured propane tank on the ground adjacent to the bunker.
But a large hole in the roof of the bunker has never had an official acknowledgment or explanation.
What it tells me is that you have a demolition charge went off on the roof.
General Ben Partin, a former military explosive expert, testified that there were two explosions.
This footage shows the detonation of a high explosive device on the bunker,
which appears to ignite gas from a ruptured propane tank.
After completion of the FBI and Texas Rangers investigation, the bunker would fold up into rubble.
Six years later, in 1999, permission was granted to test the residue from the blast.
Strangely, however, that portion of the bunker was not found after a thorough search of the rubble.
That's a sharp, I mean, that's just a little tape of windmill.
Yeah, see this?
Oh, yeah.
Do you know?
According to the FBI and ATF investigation, the Branch Davidians did possess some low-order explosives like gunpowder.
But this would not be capable of penetrating six to eight inches of steel-reinforced concrete like a high-order explosive such as TNT.
I read a part of an affidavit submitted that said that the FBI, on foot, entered the building, shot the Davidians, and planted an explosive device on top of the church vault that he called it.
We refer to it as a bunker because it's a concrete cinder block.
The blast hole at the top of the roof You can plainly see the rebar is bent in.
The damage to the stainless steel refrigerator, which appears to have been under the blast holes, is consistent with a shape charge.
And the blasting directed downward into the room, this enclosed concrete room, would very likely cause some steam rupture and create a huge overpressure inside the room that would pretty much kill everybody in there.
Anybody who was under this device when it was blown would have been horribly mangled,
probably dismembered, pretty much like being thrown into a grain thresher.
Having examined still photographs and videotapes of the bunker, it was apparent to me that this
This was caused by a shape charge.
But what bothers me is who would have the audacity to use such a charge?
Rather than risk your own people going in there and trying to shoot it out with them, it's a standard tactic in city fighting, in military operations that build up terrain, to use explosives in this manner to kill people in the targeted room that you're going to attack.
The military's advice for the FBI was they should focus on the leadership and capture or kill David Koresh.
It was to our benefit that we were able to prevent him from carrying out the second part of his prophecy.
And that is that he intended to kill as many members of law enforcement as he could before his members were killed.
It was to our benefit and we're most fortunate that none of our people were injured.
Well, it's very obvious that the effort Was the Attorney General pressured by the White House to end the siege?
What were the roles of Webster Hubble and Vince Foster?
Who actually made the decision to use CS gas with 22 children inside the Davidian compound?
After two years, why is there still no clear answer?
Rangers had difficulties working with the FBI.
But they had a major responsibility.
We had our responsibility and they seemed not to go hand in hand.
And as I recall, I testified before Congress about having a name in the White House I could
have called to solicit the support of the federal authorities in our objective.
And it turned out to be Vince Foster.
Mr. Hubbell, do you recall a meeting on or about the 14th or 15th of April that you attended
with Vince Foster, with Mr. Nussbaum, and I guess some others, in which was really a
turning point?
Did you or others at that meeting recommend or was there any discussion about the use of military force or equipment?
There was not any discussion about the use of military force.
There was discussion of having the military evaluate the FBI's plan.
The briefings by General Schumacher and Colonel Boykin of Delta Force gave Attorney General Janet Reno the assurances she needed to okay the FBI assault plan.
Presidential Counsel Vince Foster was the White House's point man for the Waco affair.
90 days later, Foster commits suicide.
He had a lot of things on his plate.
The firing travel office, but nobody was killed in that one.
What I think was really on his mind was the Waco.
To this day, I don't understand what he meant by the FBI lied to him.
Mrs. Foster said that her husband was depressed about a number of matters and she ranked the
Waco tragedy very high as any of us who were responsible for such an activity resulted
in such a tragedy.
In this FBI 302 report, Mrs. Foster indicates that her husband was troubled by the deaths
of the children at Waco and believed that everything was useful.
When you are troubled by something and you feel responsible for something, you can only
feel responsible for it if you could have done something about it.
Perhaps Mr. Foster felt that he could have done something about Waco, whether he tried to intervene, whether he was overruled.
The extensive use of governmental privileges against grand jury and criminal investigations has, of course, been a pattern through this administration.
Most notably, the White House cited privilege in 1993 to prevent Justice Department and Park Police officials from reviewing documents in Vincent Foster's office in the days after his tragic death.
The day after Vince Foster died, I got a phone call from a fellow who used to be on my squad.
who told me that they, not explaining who they were, that they had agreed that the FBI was going to come over and do a regular crime scene search of Mr. Foster's office.
During the Whitewater investigation, Deborah Gorham testified she saw a Waco file in the security file cabinet next to Mr. Foster's desk.
In addition, Michael Chertoff, counsel for the Senate Committee, inquired about a letter by Vince Foster involving Waco.
Neither was ever recovered during or after the crime scene search, and their whereabouts are still unknown.
However, White House Secret Service agent Harry O'Neill testified that Maggie Williams was seen removing files from Foster's office the night of his death.
Thomas Castleton, an intern and Mr. Foster's assistant, Just to let you know where we are in the state of the record.
We have received evidence that in fact the box was in Mr. Forster's office.
Do you understand the box you were taking out was a box of files that originated in Mr. Forster's office?
I did understand that, sir.
You heard that from Maggie Williams?
Yes.
And in fact, it was Maggie Williams, the Chief of Staff to the First Lady, that you accompanied in taking this box up to the residence, right?
That's right.
What were you told by Maggie Williams about why the box was being taken up to the residence?
I was told that the contents of the box needed to be reviewed.
Reviewed by whom?
By the First Lady.
Maggie Williams was Mrs. Clinton's Chief of Staff.
Maggie Williams took out... You can't call her anything else but what it is.
It was evident.
One of the interesting things that happens in an investigation is you begin to get anonymous phone calls.
And we, in fact, received anonymous phone calls from Justice Department managers and attorneys who believed that pressure was placed on Janet Reno A bi-web Hubble and pressure that came from the First Lady of the United States.
Now, we believe that because the military was present at Waco in some capacity, that the President may have made a decision to allow that to happen following some sort of a legal protocol where he says this is of such a serious nature that it would involve.
And we asked for those documents and asked to see National Security Council documents.
And, uh, we're not provided with any information that, uh, enabled us to reach a conclusion.
It's a serious allegation that the President interfered with, changed, moved up the decision.
And we can't just bandy these things around unless we have some real evidence.
If combat application was on the ground that day, actually pulling triggers, The origin of that operation would have come directly from the White House.
It would have come from the President.
Because the Combat Applications Group is for all intents and purposes the President's private army.
It was discussed at the meeting that the senior level for the Clinton administration had authorized Delta to be deployed to Waco, Texas.
And not just two or three people deployed there, but enough people there to get the job done.
As we come to an end, all of us are looking for anything that happened in these hearings after eight days and nights to indicate not that General Reno had something to do with this, but now the President.
Well, after we've exhausted that bit, the only one left that I can think of is the butler.
Maybe the butler did it.
I am surprised you haven't tried to subpoena the butler by now.
Our disappointment could not have been greater as professionals and as humans who care about
the plight of others when the investigation is terminated by Congress.
As I count up the deaths here, 86.
And then if you want to make the leap that Oklahoma City has some connection because it was done on the anniversary of Waco, that's another 160, give or take.
So you're talking 246 lives, and for this Congress to try to oversee what in the hell happened and how did it happen, it just seems to be talking about the butler did it, a little capricious, a little frivolous, and that's just my opinion.
I yield my time to Mr. McCullough.
It's a struggle we've had.
I was Attorney General when the Freedom of Information Act was passed and the government hated the Freedom of Information Act.
They hated me for pressing for it because they don't want to be questioned about what they do.
They don't want to have to explain what they do.
And yet if you want to be a free society, if you want to have justice, if you want to avoid a police state, you better know what your government does.
you better insist upon a right to know what your government does.
Even though you have a $20 million investigation, you don't have $20 million answers.
There's nothing about Waco I feel good about.
But imagine seeing small children, disarticulated, with bullets and debris and having to pick up their body and their head comes off in your left hand and their body comes apart in your right hand.
That leaves a horrible, absolutely indelible, etched in your brain memory of a tragedy.
The prosecutors during our trial tried to prove conspiracy and murder and all 11 defendants were found by a jury to be
not guilty of those two charges.
And I think that to me is.
For the president and for any media or anybody in this committee to continue to refer to us as murderers, I feel that's unjust.
The government cannot be proud about what they did on February the 28th.
They cannot be proud about what they did on April the 19th.
And they certainly can't be happy about what this jury said to them today.
We found all of the defendants not guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and of murder.
In essence, there was no way we could say that they did not use firearms.
I think the jury totally rejected the scary idea that came out in the final argument that someone who would study a certain religion by virtue of the way he thinks would be guilty of a conspiracy to murder federal agents.
That, I think, is one clear message that came out of this trial.
What we came to realize, too late to correct, was that we could not have found them guilty of using firearms without having found them guilty of either conspiracy to murder or murder.
Those two charges were tied together.
When the judge looked at the jury's verdict, He said that this finding of guilty in the commission of a federal offense is inconsistent.
I'll throw it out.
But then he changed his mind.
And when it came to sentencing, he stood the jury's verdict on his head.
He said in his sentencing speech that since they were guilty of using a weapon in the commission of a federal offense, he would find that the federal offense was murder and conspiracy to commit murder.
He went further on to say you murdered not only the ACF agents, but your own co-religionists.
Federal sentencing guidelines allow Judge Smith to choose the sentence of between 5 and 40 years.
He gave all but two defendants the maximum sentence of 40 years in federal prison.
I knew what was going to happen.
I knew what the agents were going to say.
What they were going to blame myself and others in there for.
But, you know, it was just something I had to go through.
I'm a school teacher and it's a good opportunity for me to get away from the kids and forget all about them for a while and just come and relax for a while.
I don't like being in prison.
I don't like this situation.
It's a futile experience.
I don't understand it.
But was charged with aiding and abetting and was also given a maximum sentence of 15 years.
I don't like being in prison.
I don't like this situation.
It's a futile experience.
I don't understand it.
I don't think it's making me a better person.
But I believe it's all for a reason.
The system had every opportunity to be fair and honest and truthful and just.
I don't like being in prison.
I don't like this situation.
It's a futile experience.
I don't understand it.
I don't think it's making me a better person.
But I believe it's all for a reason.
The system had every opportunity to be fair and honest and truthful and just.
I don't like being in prison.
The system had every opportunity to be fair and honest and truthful and treat us properly
And they chose not to.
They chose to lie, to deceive, and to cover up, to cover their positions, or their retirement, or their whatever it may be.
And that's something they gotta deal with.
They gotta look at themselves in the mirror every morning and say that, hey, I made decisions that ended up costing a lot of people their lives.
I want to say that Rastavidians are not anti-government.
We're not anti-law enforcement.
And I'm sorry that there are four agents that are dead and a lot that are wounded.
But we lost 85.
Well, friends and family do.
And it was unnecessary.
♪♪♪ I hear a lot of people saying that...
You know that they hope this will never happen again.
What happened to us I believe that what happened to us was just the beginning.
Many of us have a heartfelt concern for individuals that chose a particular lifestyle that was
a little bit of an off brand lifestyle and who were cavalierly thought of as unimportant
and thought of as people who simply committed suicide or simply burned themselves up.
And that claim being so widely held by everyone is also the type of thing that the investigator
wants to get in under and really find out if there's another side of the story.
They meant everything to me.
And they still do.
And I thank God for the hope that one day, and I hope it's soon, that I'll be able to put my arms around them and play with them again and take care of them.
God willing.
We cannot put this government in the seat of God.
And go along with this government and say, look, you can take life anytime you will, please, just like you did right before our very eyes.
We had a play-by-play, just like it was a football game.
But you can't do this!
You know, I think the media needs to be the watchdog for the people.
I mean, that's why it's the First Amendment.
Not the Second.
Not the Sixteenth.
The First Amendment.
Somebody, way back when, thought it was very important that the media be the watchdog.
I mean, in this system, checks and balances.
And in this instance, it was a sleep.
If we choose to learn from our mistakes, it is from admitting our errors that we come
closer to understanding how we might prevent tragedies like these from happening in the
future.
you Those who cannot admit their mistakes, well, all we can do is offer our prayers.
Our government isn't a perfect one.
It compromises imperfect people.
It can only be as good if we choose to make it.
We have come too far to quit or to toast.
We must continue to make it better.
But we must not allow ourselves to become bitter only bitter.
Perhaps the greatest lesson you learn is often the most difficult to remember until it survives.
That is why it is very precious
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