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Jan. 15, 1997 - Bill Cooper
02:05:30
Michele Moore, OKC - Day One
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Time Text
I'm going to play a little bit of that. It's called The End of the World. It's a song that
I wrote when I was a kid. It's called The End of the World.
It's a song that I wrote when I was a kid. It's called The End of the World. It's a
song that I wrote when I was a kid. It's called The End of the World. It's a song
that I wrote when I was a kid.
It's called The End of the World. It's a song that I wrote when I was a kid. It's called
The End of the World. It's a song that I wrote when I was a kid. It's called The End of
the World. It's a song that I wrote when I was a kid. It's called The End of the World.
It's a song that I wrote when I was a kid. It's called The End of the World. It's a song
the the
that I wrote when I was a kid. It's called The End of the the
the The hour of the time is also carried over WRMI, Worldwide Shortwave Radio.
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Light out the love of the hour, be the hour of the time.
Light out the love of your heart, the soul of the time.
Light out the love of your heart, the soul of the time.
You're listening to the Hour of the Time.
I'm William Cooper.
Good evening or afternoon, as the case may be, ladies and gentlemen, and all in between across the country.
You're listening to the man that President Clinton named in a White House memo as the most dangerous radio host in America.
And there's a reason for that.
You see, President Clinton is afraid of the truth.
He can't stand the truth.
He cannot allow the truth to see the light of day.
In fact, if you want to know the truth, very few people in Washington, D.C.
can afford to ever have that happen.
The whole house of cards will come tumbling down.
Me, I don't run around and shoot people.
No, sir.
I wield the sword of truth.
It is the best ammunition that we can have today, and it is the only thing, I can assure you, that will ever set us free.
The only thing, ladies and gentlemen.
Even if we fought a war that lasted for years, and we won that war, unless we determined to live our lives in truth, And to expose the truth always and not allow the lies and deception and manipulations and fantasies to take over again, as they have in the past.
You see, that's how we got to this point in time.
Unless we did that, the same thing would just happen over again as it has throughout the history of the human race.
You see, since one man first met another man stumbling along somewhere in a forest or a desert or a plain somewhere in the ancient history of the human race, Once one man met another man, the battle to see who is going to control the other started, and it's been raging ever since.
There are those who don't want to be controlled.
We love freedom.
We're not anarchists.
We believe that anarchy is just as bad as communism.
One is total ownership and control of everyone and everything by the state, and the other one is the absence of any control.
We believe that both are equally undesirable and dangerous, destructive.
We believe in the Constitutional Republic and the principles and ideals which our Founding Fathers gave us that for the first time in history Allow man to be free.
You see, it had never happened before.
This, in my estimation, was the pinnacle, the ultimate of all human achievement.
Where man was allowed to live in freedom with responsibility.
I shouldn't say allowed.
It wasn't allowed, it was taken.
It was won with a hard price in many lives.
And I don't think those lives spent to give us this inheritance of freedom should be wasted.
Should have been for naught.
But, you know, who am I? I believe that there are an awful lot of people who believe the
way I do, and I believe there are a lot more who think they don't believe the way I do,
but once they discover what the truth really is, usually reexamine what they believe and
come over to our side.
Peace.
It is inevitable.
No one wants to be a slave.
They may think they do until they get a taste of it.
They may think that life as a child was better than life as an adult living in freedom with responsibility, being accountable for your actions.
They may think that it's better until they actually begin to live in it.
And then all of a sudden, it's not as sweet as they thought it was.
So, I'm going to play it.
I'm going to play it.
She won't let you sit down for long.
She will buy some free time.
By and large, she's just my girl.
He's in the garden, he's in the garden under the sun He's inside the garden, he's inside the garden cold
He's inside the garden, he's inside the garden The rain is falling, the rain is falling like it's raining
He's in the garden, he's in the garden under the sun He's inside the garden, he's inside the garden cold
The Christmas morning is the Christmas power He's in the garden, he's inside the garden cold
He's inside the garden, he's inside the garden cold He's inside the garden, he's inside the garden cold
As the communities in the Oklahoma City metropolitan area were gearing up to support the rescue workers with open
hearts and open wallets another effort was underway.
Thank you.
Federal agencies were preparing their statements and lining up their experts to take over the investigation of the bombing.
National pundits were already saying, A political toll has been exacted in Oklahoma City.
This was the first of a veritable onslaught of similar remarks that would dominate the news for weeks to come.
At noon, White House spokesman Mike McCurry held a press conference in Washington, D.C.
Said McCurry, Here at the White House, we can just now reveal how federal agencies are now responding, and we're satisfied, based on the reports that we have from the Department of Justice, from GSA, from the FBI, from FEMA, and from the Secret Service, from the Marshals Service, and from all the relevant federal agencies that might have a little hand in dealing with this incident, that we have a very good federal response in hand.
The federal government has activated an emergency response plan that we train for and that we have in place so that we can coordinate an interagency response to incidents like this.
The Department of Justice had already responded, had FBI personnel in place, and a variety of law enforcement efforts are underway.
They have established a mobile command center in Oklahoma City with FBI, FEMA, Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, the Marshals Service, and GSA in place to give updated information to folks here in Washington.
The President has directed for the emergency response effort that James Lee Witt, The Director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency will go to Oklahoma City to coordinate the emergency response.
We'll have the Department of Justice coordinating the various law enforcement efforts that will be underway and FEMA is responding to the emergency situation in place.
Mr. Leon Panetta has been briefing the President regularly.
The President, I expect, like many Americans, has been watching the developments as he sees them On television and getting updates from the Chief of Staff as we go along.
I'd ask that you, the press, for inquiries about the various things going on in Oklahoma City related to law enforcement, that you stay in close contact with Carl Stern over at Justice, and for the work that FEMA will be coordinating, that Mowry Goodman will be a good point of contact.
He'll be coordinating some of the interagency public affairs efforts as we go along.
Immediately after McCurry's speech, the BATF repeated on national television that the bombing was caused by a parked car that contained between 1,000 and 1,200 pounds of explosives.
We were off and running at full speed on the speculation and propaganda racetrack.
It was going to be a long day.
On NBC News, Tom Bocaw hosted a live interview with Neil Livingston, an expert on terrorism and terrorist bombings.
Said Bocaw, Neil Livingston was recently in Oklahoma City giving a talk on, of all subjects, terrorism, to the Oklahoma City Police Department, and he joins us now from Washington.
Why would Oklahoma City be a target for this kind of thing, Mr. Livingston?
Livingston replied, Well, it wouldn't traditionally be a target.
Usually terrorists strike in the major media centers.
We think of terrorist attacks being much more likely in Washington, or New York, or Miami, or L.A., not Oklahoma City.
But what we learn from the attacks in Argentina by Islamic fundamentalists a couple of years ago is that they often also go where your security is the weakest, where people least expect it.
Why were you talking about terrorism in Oklahoma City?"
asked Bilko.
Actually, I've given several speeches out there, ironically, in the last couple of years on terrorism to civic groups.
There's a strong interest in public affairs, and particularly this problem of terrorism.
I think that the fact that they have so many people involved in the oil industry And quite a few students from Middle Eastern countries who are studying various types of engineering in Oklahoma may have also contributed to it.
It was time to bring up the Muslim fundamentalist terrorist accusation again, just in case anyone had forgotten the statements made three hours earlier by Dave McCurdy and Ileana Rose Latinen James Fox, an investigator in the World Trade Center bombing and professor at Northeastern University, offered his cautious opinion.
I think we could say there are similarities to some of the Middle Eastern groups.
There are similarities to some of the groups that have been active in Europe in recent years, especially given the fact that it's an enormous bomb, apparently contained in a van or a truck.
But to go beyond that, I'd be reluctant to do so.
But Professor Richard Dick Ningen from USC in Los Angeles held another view.
I would be very, very careful in not immediately ascribing this to Islamic extremists.
I can think of a number of homegrown organizations, the cultic millenarians, the people up in the Idaho panhandle, the messianic types, the neo-Nazis that could be responsible for this.
It must have also seemed like a good time to bring in the big guns, and the alleged Waco connection was mentioned by Neil Livingston as a possible motivation for the bombing.
Not all experts agreed.
James Fox remarked, I'd be surprised if it was part of David Koresh's group from Waco, simply because from what I know of the Waco situation, his followers do not have the sophistication needed to put a bomb of these dimensions together and make it blow.
In spite of expert opinions to the contrary, newscasters everywhere began speculating that the Murrah Building bombing might have occurred because this day, April 19, 1995, was the second anniversary of the siege at the Branch Davidian Church near Waco, Texas.
For some reason, members of the news media have never referred to Mount Carmel as what it really was, a Christian church.
Nor have they ever referred to the members of the Branch Davidian Church as its congregation, but as cult members.
Davidian leader David Koresh was never referred to as the pastor or minister of that church, but was always dubbed the cult leader.
With the same disregard for truth and reliance on innuendo, the media began speculating again.
From these expert readers of the teleprompter now came many statements that the Murrah Building might have been the target of the bombing attack because Oklahoma City FBI Director Bob Ricks had also been a major player and FBI spokesman during the Waco Massacre.
Although there was a small FBI office in the Federal Building, no one bothered to mention that the primary offices of Bob Ricks and the FBI were located five miles away from the Muir Building.
An Oklahoma City spokesman for the FBI, Dan Vogel, would not comment on the possibility of a connection between the two events.
It was further speculated That the building might have been blown up because agents of the B.A.T.F., which had stormed the church at Mount Carmel, burned it to the ground and murdered most of that Christian congregation, had an office in the Muir Building.
No one bothered to inform the public that there were no more than a maximum of twenty B.A.T.F.
employees who worked in the Muir Building, and it was not yet known if any of those employees had served as ground troops during the Waco Massacre.
No one mentioned that the BATF officers, which were on the ninth floor in the southeast corner of the building, could have been totally destroyed had the driver of the alleged bomb vehicle parked on the east side of the building instead of on the north side.
An inconceivable tactical error for a dedicated terrorist if the BATF had actually been the target.
No one was talking about the fact that the B.A.T.F.
office was practically empty of employees on the morning of April the 19th.
In fact, information originating with B.A.T.F.
agents themselves placed only four B.A.T.F.
employees in the building at the time of the explosions.
Everyone else was conveniently out of the office that morning.
But that is another story for Volume Two.
And as an aside, ladies and gentlemen, the four employees were not BATF agents, but secretaries and file clerks and people like that.
No one mentioned that the orders for the final, fatal BATF assault in Texas had come from Attorney General Janet Reno, and she certainly did not have an office in the Murrah Building.
The media was grabbing at very elusive straws and coming to the most illogical and unsubstantiated conclusions.
Again, no one was asking the right questions.
When you are in a hurry to find a terrorist, any motivation will do as long as it points an accusing finger.
News anchor Kevin Ogle interviewed Dr. Randall Heather, another expert in terrorism.
This interview offered the first piece of information that led to many other inquiries about prior knowledge of the bombing by federal law enforcement agencies.
In keeping with the questions asked of other terrorism experts that day, Dr. Heather was asked why Oklahoma City should have been a target for a bomb attack.
As we had observed in similar interviews earlier, his responses were in line with the official story.
He replied, Any place you have a federal building, you have a target, and these buildings could be anywhere in the United States.
A car bomb is the easiest mechanism by which to deliver a device very close to a target, and there are very few security measures short of cordoning off parts of the city, as they are thinking about doing in Washington right now with Pennsylvania Avenue, to protect against such an attack.
The next predictable question concerned who might be responsible for the bombing and possible claims of responsibility by terrorist groups.
Dr. Heather offered his speculation, which touched every base and echoed the other guesses offered by his colleagues in the field.
I believe the Nation of Islam, who were involved in the World Trade Center bombing, Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman's group, claimed responsibility for that event.
But this claim of responsibility was done after the explosion.
This discounts the value of that claim.
Obviously, had it happened two or three minutes beforehand, it would have been of tremendous value.
I don't know myself.
I do know that there had been a threat phoned in to the FBI last week.
I don't know what the nature of that was, but yes, they do generally try to claim credit.
But remember that all targets for terrorism are symbolic.
We have to define what was the symbolism of that building.
Dr. Heather's comment about the FBI's prior knowledge of a possible attack on a federal building in Oklahoma City, confirmed by many other sources, would become a matter of great controversy in the months following the bombing.
During the afternoon press conference, Oklahoma City FBI Director Bob Ricks blatantly denied that the FBI had had any prior warning whatsoever about a possible bombing.
His claims were echoed by Weldon Kennedy, FBI spokesman during the bombing investigation.
Similar denials were issued by the Justice Department in Washington, D.C., until the evidence later showed that they were all lying.
After those lies were made public, officials had no further comment on the matter.
Later evidence clearly established that the FBI not only had received advance notice of a possible terrorist attack in Oklahoma City, but had also telephoned a warning to the Oklahoma City Fire Department on Friday, April 14, 1995, five days before the explosions occurred.
This information was confirmed by Oklahoma City Assistant Fire Chief Charles Gaines, Assistant Chief Dispatcher Harvey Weathers, and Dispatcher Carl Poser.
In his investigation of the FBI warning to the fire department, Glenn Wilburn confronted Harvey Weathers about officials' denials of the prior warning.
Said Weathers, Well, you asked me and I told you.
I'm not going to lie for anybody.
A lot of people don't want to get involved in this.
The FBI warning to the Oklahoma City Fire Department on Friday April 14th was recorded by the fire department's radio log tapes, but there was a problem.
Although the log tapes from April 19th are intact, Someone accidentally taped over the logs from the previous Friday, removing all proof of the FBI warning.
At the time of this writing, the fire department is fighting a subpoena of dispatchers Weathers and Purser in a civil suit filed against one of the bombing defendants.
Additionally, information came to light that the BATF and the FBI were allegedly involved in a sting operation that was to have taken place during the night of Tuesday, April 18th.
Lester D. Marks, spokesman for the Dallas office of the BATF, stated that the sting operation had failed because, quote, the bad guys didn't show up, end quote.
He further stated that the sting operation was called off at 6.30 a.m.
on Wednesday morning, April 19th, just two and a half hours prior to the explosions that destroyed the Murrah Building.
When it was determined that the sting operation was not going to proceed as planned, the bomb squad was called to check both the Murrah Building and the federal courthouse for explosive devices.
Bomb Squad personnel and vehicles were seen by many people in the area, and workers in both buildings.
Thurma Smith, an employee at the Federal Courthouse, observed the Bomb Squad searching the building early on the morning of April 19.
Said Smith, The day was fine.
Everything was normal.
When I arrived at 7.45 to begin my day at 8 a.m., But as I walked through my building's parking lot, I remember seeing the Bomb Squad.
I really did not think much about it, especially when we did not hear any more about it.
There was some talk about the Bomb Squad among employees in our office.
We did wonder what it was doing in our parking lot.
Jokingly, I said, Well, I guess we'll find out soon enough.
It wasn't too long after Norma had spoken with her co-workers that her ominous words came to pass.
Norma was but one of many witnesses who observed the bomb squad searching both the federal courthouse and the mural building prior to the bombing on April 19th.
According to New American reporter William Jasper, A mother whose infant son was killed in the Murrah Day Care Center says she saw bomb squad personnel standing across the street from the Murrah building an hour before the explosion.
This mother said she had just dropped her child off at the center at 8 a.m.
and was driving south on Robinson when she saw several men in dark jackets with bomb squad in big letters across their backs standing in front of the federal courthouse.
In an interview with the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Oklahoma City Attorney Daniel J. Adamides said, As I was passing the back side of the county courthouse, I noticed a truck with a trailer, and the truck said, Bomb Disposal.
I remember thinking as I passed that, Gee, I wonder if they had a bomb threat at the county courthouse.
In response to these and other eyewitness reports, Dallas VATF spokesman Lester March replied, I have not come across any information that any kind of a bomb unit was at the building prior to the bombing.
To make matters worse, government documents were later revealed that indicated that the U.S.
Marshals Service in Denver, Colorado had made an immunity deal with a paid government informant who had knowledge of the pending bombing and had forewarned government and law enforcement officials about it.
Redacted copies of this letter were made public by Defense Attorney Stephen Jones in his press conference of August 10, 1995.
A copy of this letter of immunity can be viewed in Appendix D. U.S.
Attorney Henry Solano confirmed that his Denver office granted immunity to the informant in September 1994.
U.S.
Marshals Service representative in Denver, Tina Rowe, denied the entire incident.
According to Solano, the informant was a drug courier making delivery runs between Kingman, Arizona and Las Vegas, Nevada.
The informant stated that he overheard conversations about plans to blow up buildings in the Midwest in mid-April 1995.
The informant further said that the alleged conspirators were Latin Americans and or Middle Eastern Americans with Arabic names.
When later questioned about the men accused of the bombing, the informant denied that he had ever seen them or heard their names mentioned in connection with the bombing conspiracy.
On April 6, 1995, the informant delivered a handwritten letter to the Justice Department in Washington, D.C., which stated, After leaving Denver for what I thought would be a long time, I returned here last night because I have specific information that within two weeks a federal building is to be bombed in this area or nearby.
I would not ignore this specific request for you personally to contact me immediately regarding
a plot to blow up a federal building.
If you and or your office does not contact me, as I so request herein, I will never again
contact any law enforcement agency, federal or state, regarding those matters in the letter
of immunity.
Tina Rowe of the U.S. Marshals Service and representatives from the Justice Department
continue to deny that this letter was received, although the letter has the signature of the
office recipient on it.
It was undeniable that the Justice Department, the U.S.
Marshals, the FBI and the VATF had prior knowledge of the potential for a bombing at a federal facility in the Oklahoma City area.
It was undeniable that upper-level authorities in the federal government also had prior knowledge.
What could we find out about the failed BATF sting operation scheduled for the previous night?
Why was that operation being conducted in Oklahoma City, but was seemingly directed out of the Dallas office?
Why, in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, were federal officials vehemently denying that they had any forewarning of any kind?
This situation raised some very interesting questions, not the least of which were these.
If the bomb squad found nothing in its search of the Muir Building and the Federal Courthouse a mere sixty minutes prior to the explosions, when were the column charges placed which severed the support columns in the building?
When were the clearly labeled canisters of fulminated mercury set within the building, and more importantly, by whom?
to tell a falsehood is like the cut of a saber, for though the wound may heal, the scar of
it will remain.
Sadiq, from Lulistan, 1258, translated by James Ross Amen.
.
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¶.
I'm William Cooper, ladies and gentlemen, and I'm reading excerpts from the book, Oklahoma City, Day One, by Michelle Marie Moore.
It is a detailed account of the bombing of the Alfred P.
Murrah Federal Building, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, April 19, 1995.
At noon that Wednesday, a mere three hours after the explosions, we knew only that several
secondary explosive devices had been found, devices that resembled military bombs, that
these bombs had been defused and removed from the Murrah Building by the bomb squad, and
finally that the rescue workers were being allowed to return to the building.
No one will ever know how many people died alone and unaided in the rubble while the bombs were being removed.
The rescue and the medical workers filed back into the mountain of debris laced with tiny tunnels and voids where the survivors remained trapped.
As the workers began moving back in, the press was kept at a distance and the immediate area was now solidly ringed with yellow crime scene tape.
From a street corner near the building, reporter Jayna Davis questioned Assistant Fire Chief John Hanson about the progress of the rescue effort.
Chief Hanson, always wary of speculation, gave us a cautiously worded first-hand account of what was happening at the scene.
It was going very, very slowly, Hanson said.
We have to move slowly because there is still a danger of a building collapse.
It's been very frustrating for us because our folks want to be in there doing things.
We are in there.
We're talking to victims through Boyd's faces and people are crying out to us.
We're shoring the structure as best we can with hydraulic tools.
Some of the dogs are at work in the building and some listening devices are in use.
It's just very, very slow work.
We are able to reach through cracks and hold people's hands and reassure them as best we can, but actually getting to them is going to take a long, long time.
We're doing the best we can on the rubble that we can get through, but we're going to have to bring in heavy equipment and lift up some rods and flooring.
This is very similar to what happened in California in the earthquake, where buildings came down and floors pancaked on other floors.
There are a lot of void spaces we need to check.
We've got a number of fatalities inside that building, and we've been counting those as we go to the people who are alive.
Again, you see firefighters coming out of the building with tears in their eyes.
They're dealing with buried people they can't get to, but we're making those efforts and we're going to do the very best that we can.
Ms.
Davis asks, we have unconfirmed reports from earlier this morning on the skin that there is flooding in the basement area in the lower floors.
Is that true?
The explosion severed lines in several of the buildings, Chief Hanson replied.
We got a report that we have had some water mains break and some gas mains break inside the building, and that's something we have to deal with to make sure we don't have any secondary explosions.
So there may still be a danger of that, even though the utility companies have done a marvelous job of getting those utilities cut off.
It's very dangerous right now.
The building is extremely unstable, and we could have another collapse with our firefighters inside.
When asked to offer an estimate of how long the operation might take, Chief Hanson greatly underestimated the duration.
We're talking about the possibility of being here for several days.
Right now, we're gearing up for a night operation with generators and lights, and we'll work around the clock.
We'll work as long as we have to until we're sure, or as sure as we can be, that all of Survivable victims in there are taken care of.
It may be a couple of days.
As the work progressed, the focus of the operation would change after the first week from search and rescue to search and removal.
Firefighters and military personnel would work at the bomb site for the next sixteen days before the building was officially turned over to the FBI for a final investigation prior to the building's demolition.
Early on the afternoon of April 19th, the national and international press began trickling in.
A few hours later, they would form a veritable cord.
A media center called Satellite City was being organized on Northwest 7th Street between Hudson and Harvey, two blocks north and one block west of the Muir Building.
From this time forward, all information coming from the scene would be carefully arranged, and any video Footage of the building would have to be shot from a crane or by a press pool cameraman.
A 4,000-foot mean sea level, or 2,900-foot vertical no-fly zone, was established later that day, covering a three-mile radius around the bomb site, for all aircraft not involved in the rescue operation.
This ended all aerial views of the building and rescue operations.
From the Media Center, only the upper five stories of the Muir Building were visible, and all ground operations were blocked from view by the remains of the Oklahoma Water Resources Board Building and the Journal Record Building.
The outer boundaries, which were hurriedly being set up with roadblocks and crime scene tape, extended two blocks east and west, with the block containing the Muir Building in the center.
Two blocks north and three blocks south of the building, creating a 20 square block secured area.
This initial perimeter was guarded at first by police officers and members of the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.
Later, the Oklahoma National Guard would be assigned to perimeter security.
Within two days, the first perimeter would be enclosed by a greatly expanded secondary exterior perimeter, which was also guarded by armed law enforcement officers and National Guardsmen.
The southern boundary of the enlarged area was Robert S. Kerr Boulevard.
The eastern boundary was Oklahoma Street.
The northern boundary was Northwest 10th Street, and the western boundary was Classen Boulevard, an 88-square block area.
The media center was contained within the exterior perimeter and without the interior perimeter.
No one could access the area without proper identification.
At the south boundary, Robert Esker Boulevard, no press gathered due to the many large buildings that totally blocked all views north.
All of the media personnel were jam-packed into one tiny parking area between two buildings almost three blocks north of the Murrah building.
As the world media representatives began to set up camp in this tiny spot, even the national media stars would have to make their broadcast statements standing in about four square feet of space, straddling miles of electrical and audio cables and bumping shoulders with hundreds of their competitors.
While the members of the media scrambled for territory in their newly assigned area, work in the Mirror Building continued as one crisis followed another.
A water main had broken in the federal building and the fire department was trying to deal with flooding in the basement because people were still trapped in the underground parking garage.
Many might have drowned if the water could not be shut off.
Gas lines had also been broken and live electrical wires were exposed.
Rescue workers were warned not to smoke for fear of a possible gas explosion.
Utility company employees were rushed in to try to turn off the gas and electric service.
Because of the extreme devastation, this would not be an easy task.
Debris and rubble had to be cleared from the area before the utility connections could be reached and disabled.
Ed Wheeler, spokesman for Oklahoma Natural Gas, said, The blast was so strong you're going to have a concussion effect very similar to earthquake waves.
As a result, we're not taking anything for granted.
We're checking our entire downtown gas distribution and pipeline system to make sure there isn't any peripheral damage outside the parameter of the area from which utility crews were restricted.
Once we get inside the parameter, we'll trace every single gas line and make repairs where it's necessary to do so.
With the new perimeter restricting the movements of the news media, and with their view of the Murrah Building effectively blocked, they turned their attention to other parts of Oklahoma City to determine how those farther removed from Ground Zero had responded to the bombing.
It was reported that 50 Penn Place, a large shopping mall located about five miles northwest of the Federal Building, had been evacuated.
The top four floors of this mall at Northwest 50th and Pennsylvania Avenue housed the offices of Bob Ricks, former spokesman for the FBI during the Waco Massacre and director of the main Oklahoma City offices of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
By 10 o'clock that morning, the parking lots at 50 Penn Place were virtually empty.
The broadcast studios for KTOK Radio AM 1000, Oklahoma's premier news talk radio station, had reduced its staff there to a skeletal crew and continued uninterrupted broadcasting.
The few store employees who remained in the mall told reporters that they were afraid to stay.
Shortly after the bombing occurred, the building was officially evacuated.
Only FBI officials, a minimal number of KTOK staff members, key mall employees, and building security personnel were allowed to remain.
Security officers were stationed at the entrances to 50 Penn Place.
They stopped everyone who tried to enter the mall and turned them all away.
A reporter met with two carloads of employees who left 50 Penn Place and drove across the street to the Penn Square Mall parking lot.
The reporter stated that the employees were reluctant to talk to the press.
We can't talk to you, said one woman.
When asked if she had been instructed not to talk, she said, we just know that we shouldn't.
Of particular interest was the report given by security officer John Calhoun, who worked at 50 Penn Place.
Calhoun said, according to the news reports, the FBI received a bomb threat last week, and their offices are on four floors of that building.
However, Calhoun said he was not aware of any specific bomb threats being made at the FBI offices that day.
No further mention was ever made of Calhoun's report of a bomb threat, and FBI officials
denied, and continue to deny, that they received any such threats shortly before or on April
19th.
But there is much evidence to the contrary.
Freelance writer Pat Blyle from Edmond, Oklahoma, offered this information.
Marshals, on March 22, 1995, were put on full, heightened alert nationwide at all federal buildings and all federal courthouses by their director, Mr. Gonzales, because they had received threats that they considered credible enough to consume the manpower of the U.S.
Marshals nationwide to be on the lookout for bombings by Arab terrorists, fundamentalists, in retaliation for the World Trade Center bombing trial.
This alert had to be approved by Janet Reno, who is over the U.S.
Marshals, and the intelligence that led to that alert had to be available to her as well.
I can't imagine that if the U.S.
Marshals had put everybody within their forces on alert like that, that the FBI and the BATF didn't know about it.
This alert that I'm referring to was reported at length.
There was a memo on this as well, issued by the U.S.
Marshals, and it was quoted at length in an article in the Star-Ledger newspaper.
See Appendix D. Eduardo Gonzalez's memo, which was issued in response to information provided by an unidentified informed source, stated that the threats were aimed specifically at U.S.
Marshals Service personnel.
The newspaper article, to which Pat Briley referred later, became part of an official press release offered by defense lawyer Stephen Jones.
The article, which appeared in the March 22, 1995 edition of Newark, New Jersey Star-Ledger, was written by Robert Rudolph and reads in part, and I quote, U.S.
law enforcement authorities have obtained information that Islamic terrorists may be planning suicide attacks against federal courthouses and government installations in the United States.
The attacks, it is feared, would be designed to attract worldwide press attention through the murder of innocent victims.
The Star-Ledger has learned that U.S.
law enforcement officials have received a warning that a Thoughtwell, a religious ruling similar to the death sentence targeting author Salman Rushdie, has been issued against federal authorities as a result of an incident during the trial last year of four persons in the bombing of the World Trade Center in New York.
The disclosure was made in a confidential memorandum issued by the U.S.
Marshals Service in Washington calling for stepped-up security at federal facilities throughout the nation.
Iranian-supported extremists have made it clear that steps are being taken to strike at the Great Satan, a phrase that has been used to describe the United States.
The Marshal Service memo said the agency believes that there is sufficient threat potential to request that a heightened level of security awareness and caution be implemented at all Marshal Service-protected facilities nationwide.
The memo, issued by Eduardo Gonzales, Director of the U.S.
Marshals Service, warns that attacks may be designed to target as many victims as possible and
draw as much media coverage as possible to the fundamentalist cause."
The issue of importance in the Star-Ledger article is not that threats were made by Islamic
extremists, but simply that threats were made.
That even during the height of the Middle East suspects hysteria, which was about to
get underway, the FBI and the BATF continued to deny that they had received any threats
of any kind prior to the bombing.
you The Star-Ledger was not the only newspaper to carry information concerning the prior knowledge of federal officials about bomb threats to federal buildings.
On April 20, 1995, the Oregonian published an article that not only added to the documentation of prior knowledge, but also contributed significantly to the later recusal of Judge Wayne Alley from the Oklahoma City Voting Trial.
Said the Oregonian, As a federal judge whose office looks across the street at the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Wayne Alley felt lucky that he didn't go to his office Wednesday.
Alley, who was born and raised in Portland, had taken the rare opportunity to work at home.
Of all the days for this to happen, it's absolutely an amazing coincidence, Alley said in a telephone interview from his home.
The judge said the bombing came just a few weeks after security officials had warned him to take extra precautions.
Let me just say that within the past two or three weeks, information has been disseminated that indicated concerns on the part of people who ought to know that we ought to be a little bit more careful, he said.
Alley, who started his law career in Portland, Said he was cautioned to be on the lookout for people chasing homes they're wondering about in the courthouse who aren't supposed to be there.
Letter bombs.
There has been an increased vigilance, he said.
he was not given an explanation for the concern.
He was given a chance to explain himself to the police.
That leaves me for a story of love and grief. I'll be found in the dark.
And I'll be found in the deep.
And I'll be found in the deep. And I'll be found in the deep.
I'll be found in the deep. And I'll be found in the deep.
And I'll be found in the deep.
This is The Voice of Freedom.
This is the Voice of Freedom.
you you
you The hour of the time is also carried on WRMI, Worldwide Shortwave Radio, 99.55 kilohertz, from 5 until 7 p.m.
Eastern Standard Time, Monday through Friday nights.
Peace was all around at the time.
Once upon a time, there were two things that no one wanted to say at the time.
It's not the time.
It's not the time.
Welcome ladies and gentlemen. I'm your host, Bill Shulman.
I'm here with my wife, Mary.
Welcome ladies and gentlemen back to the Hour of the Time.
That lead-in used to... I used to think that that was warning, threatening music, but now every time I hear it, it reminds me of my little 15-month-old daughter, Allison.
She can say a few words, but the way that she says dog is ruff, ruff, ruff, ruff.
That's how she does it.
So the lead-in has lost its enchantment for me now, if you can understand what I mean.
We're going to have a guest for the second hour of the broadcast, ladies and gentlemen.
In the meantime, for those of you who would like to purchase a copy of Oklahoma City, Day One, and I highly recommend that you do.
In fact, you must if you want to understand what's happened and why and who's brought
it about.
And you should purchase a copy to give to your local sheriff, your local police chief,
anybody else whom you think might benefit from reading this book, Encyclopedic in Scope.
It has a huge appendix, extensively indexed, complete bibliography, everything is sourced
There is not one word of conjecture or speculation in this book anywhere.
And you also should buy, purchase a copy and donate it to your library to make sure that it gets on the shelf.
And if you donate it with the stipulation that it must be made available on the shelves for the public to read, They have to do that.
They can't pigeonhole it somewhere.
If they do, you can sue them.
So do it, ladies and gentlemen.
And also, we need all of you to call your local bookstores.
We need you to do this.
Call your local bookstores and tell them that this book is available and you'd like to purchase a copy and they need to stock that book.
If they don't stock it, you'll buy it somewhere else.
Just call every bookstore in the country.
Let's get this book on the shelves.
Or the American people can see it.
Don't go away.
I will be right back.
I guess first, before I do that, I should give you a price and an address.
It's $34.95 post-paid.
That's $34.95 post-paid.
Make your check or money order payable to Harvest and send it to the Harvest Trust.
The Harvest Trust.
PO Box 1970, Eager, Arizona.
85925.
That's the Harvest Trust, P.O.
Box 1970, Eager, Arizona 85925.
7 0 eager Arizona 8 5 9 2 5.
of you already know from this music who our guest is. Well, this, I guess, has become
her theme song.
And it certainly applies.
But you've always been the one to give me the good news guys.
There isn't anything else I can do.
She's been there, I've been there before.
I want the kind of work I've had before.
A little wedding dress.
Something white to wear upon.
Love at first sight.
I'll never die.
a move
a Welcome to the hour of the time, Michelle Marie Moore.
Hey you Bill.
Hello.
How's it going?
It's going fine.
Ladies and gentlemen, for those of you who may not know, Michelle is the author of Oklahoma City Day One.
At the time of the bombing, she was the Station Chief for the Intelligence Service of the 2nd Continental Army of the Republic Militia.
And is responsible for overseeing and supervising the investigation and the personnel who conducted that investigation.
And then, of course, she put it all together in this magnificent work.
What's happening now?
Well, just within about the past 30 minutes, some things have happened.
Really?
Yeah.
I'm not sure where the listening audience is on the subject of State Representative Charles I don't think it's made the Associated Press.
Okay.
I don't think the listening audience is anywhere concerning this.
I think it's just been mentioned in passing.
Oh, well, they need to be educated.
There's a lot happening.
Okay.
Go for it.
Go for it.
Um, back in August of 95, Charles Key began looking into having a second grand jury at
some level look into the bombing investigation.
This was right after the federal grand jury had handed down its indictments on August the 11th.
Right, and he was told to go.
Everybody was unhappy with that situation because it failed to address so many vital salient points.
Yeah, they told him to go fish.
They told him to go fish.
So he spent from August until October just researching what could be done, then held a press conference in October dealing with that same issue because it was at that time that Hoppe Heidelberg made public the fact that Judge Russell had dismissed him from the grand jury for asking too many questions.
And all of this time has passed, and a petition was filed, I guess, in late October of 95 or early November.
Asking the courts to rule that we could have the county level grand jury continue the investigation.
Wonderful.
Because he was very concerned that the public and everybody else, meaning the law enforcement guys, understand that this was not going to interfere with the federal prosecution of the bomb case and all that stuff, but was going to look into matters that were not touched upon in the federal grand jury.
That ruling was denied by Judge Owen.
I mean that request was denied by Judge Owen.
Right.
Then, I don't know, how long ago was it?
Three weeks?
It wasn't very long ago.
It was very recent.
He appeared before the Court of Civil Appeals appealing this issue.
Representative for the Feds said, oh, let's not reinvent the wheel.
Let's not have a county grand jury.
Oh, let's not expose this to the light of day.
Right.
And the three-judge panel unanimously overturned Judge Owen's denial and basically said, well, there's no way you're reinventing the wheel if you're looking into matters that were not looked into already, which was the whole point.
And Mr. Key had We've had some meetings within the past week with Oklahoma County District Attorney Bob Macy who will be the one who brings state level charges against McVeigh and Nichols and perhaps others after the federal trial is over on behalf of the state.
Right.
Casey assured Mr. Key that he would not stand in the way of any county grand jury if the
petition went through. Now there were a lot of things that could get in the way of this
petition. For example, the state Supreme Court could overturn it if anyone appealed the appeal.
Key could fail to get the 5,000 signatures necessary to call it. Whoever would represent
the prosecution in this secondary grand jury could sabotage the whole thing from within.
A lot of bad things could happen along the way.
Sure.
But Macy assured Mr. Key that he would not stand in the way of this.
Well, the deadline for filing appeals was the 13th of January, Monday of this week.
At the 11th hour, like right before closing time of all offices, Macy stepped up to the plate with his appeal of the appeal for the State Supreme Court.
And now he's saying, oh, we're not going to, we don't want to interfere with the prosecution of the bomb case, so we're going to protest this civil appeals court ruling.
So now the state supreme court is going to have to rule on whether or not the people have redress of grievances in this matter.
In the meantime, Mr. Key met once more with Bob Macy, and it was a basically, you lied to me, you betrayed me type of conversation.
And Macy doesn't care.
And as of about an hour ago, he went on talk radio announcing that he is going to ask Bob Macy to step aside and is now investigating putting forth a recall petition to have this man removed from office.
In the meantime, Stephen Jones, attorney for McVeigh, steps up to the plate and says he himself is extremely interested in looking into the Bob Macy matter.
And he would like very much to see the county grand jury business go forward.
And Bob Mason's problem is that there is corruption and cover-up of the bombing investigation in his own office.
And that if this happens, if there's any kind of a recall or an investigation into him, this is all going to come to light.
So this news is really very new.
I haven't even had a chance to put it in kind of analysis or anything.
This is different.
What I would like for you to do is say it again one more time.
Just the last part that you said that was disclosed just recently.
okay that charles key is going to ask for bob macy to step aside
and put forward a recall petition to pull the man from office
and jones is interested in looking into the macy matter and wants to see this
county grand jury go forward and macy will have to deal with the fact that there is
uh... cover up and corruption in his own office with regard to the bombing by his
own admissions well no he's not admitting it who is it who says that there's
cover up in his own office well this is what we have discovered yes
okay so i am saying it Okay.
No, he doesn't want to admit this, are you kidding?
Right, I know that, but I just want to make it clear to the listening audience what's happening here.
Now let me ask you something else.
I'm looking at the United States, the Constitution for the United States of America.
I'm looking at Article 3, Section 2, Third Paragraph.
It says here, The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury, and such trials shall be held in the state where the said crime shall have been committed.
But when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed.
Why is this trial, which begins March 30th for Timothy McVeigh, being held in Colorado when it is clearly against the Constitution that it be taken out of the state of Oklahoma?
Because nobody has challenged Judge Mason's ruling.
It's March 31st, by the way.
March 31st, that's right, I'm sorry.
Yeah, no, he doesn't, the Feds don't have any jurisdiction in this.
The Feds didn't own the land on which the Murrah Building sat.
That's correct.
Uh, and, you know, even beyond that, taking it out of Oklahoma is unconstitutional.
That's right.
But, uh, nobody is challenging that.
Why?
My next question is why?
Well, you've gotten me, Bill.
And, and if Key is so concerned about all this, why isn't he challenging it?
I have theory about that, okay, but it would be half-baked and be a disservice to go worldwide on the air with this, about why I think this is happening.
Okay.
Rather than get into that, I would say that Mr. Key is an excellent politician.
And coming from that background, rather than go with the letter of the law on jurisdictional matters, he has chosen to play the game as it exists.
Perhaps with the line of thinking that if we want everything to really be right and above board, then it better be federal.
And nothing could be further from the truth.
I mean, you're sitting there looking at the United States Constitution, I'm sitting here looking at the one for Oklahoma.
We've got statutes right here that basically say that when there is an issue of public interest, the people can look into anything they want to and they don't have to get permission from the feds to call a grand jury for any reason.
That's right, but we know that the federal, all of the grand jury processes across the country and all of the states have been subverted and taken out of the, completely, totally out of the hands of the people.
You can't approach a grand jury with anything.
Well, I am convinced that Mr. Key is aware of these things because he was not slacking when he did his homework on this matter.
Why he would choose, in light of what he must surely know about Oklahoma statute and our state constitution, why he would take this gotta have permission of the feds approach can only be explained by the weirdness of the political mentality.
Or something more nefarious that I won't even speculate about because I cannot prove.
Sure.
Has anybody bothered to read the Constitution to the families of the victims?
Oh, I doubt it.
I seriously doubt it.
I think if they could hear what I just read over the air, I sincerely believe that there would be a huge cry raised from the, quote, heartland, end quote.
Well, I would hope that you're right, but what I'm seeing here in dealing with some family members are a lot of blinders that they deliberately wear.
Some of them want desperately to believe that the prosecution is doing everything possible that it can to bring about justice.
Some are disgruntled and dissatisfied, but you can't talk law or anything to them because they don't feel that's their domain of understanding.
But they want justice, but they don't want to do it according to the law.
Not justice the way they perceive it to be, not justice the way it might be.
I mean, what would happen to these people in the unlikely event that McVeigh and Nichols were ever acquitted?
Well, I can tell you from what we understand, there's no way they can be convicted thus far.
That's correct.
But these people would not understand that justice isn't brought about until the trial is over.
They've already decided what justice is.
And for a lot of these people, justice is going to be, you know, death to the traitors and all this stuff.
But they don't see the big picture at all.
They've been very much manipulated by the prosecution and oversaturated by the media.
And they're still deep in grief.
Okay, what's next?
Oh gosh, I don't know.
Lead the way.
I'm sitting here with two banana boxes full of file folders all categorized by subject.
What shall we talk about?
What is the latest on John Doe No.
2?
Is there any latest?
Oh gosh, is there any latest on John Doe 2?
Did we talk about anything like that?
Not beyond the Strathmire Brescia joke.
Okay, and that's not from anything solid that, for instance, those who say that John Doe number 2 is Michael Brescia are going on an old high school photograph that doesn't even look like John Doe number 2.
Oh, well, correct, if they're going by photographs, but you can't even solidify the so-called alleged evidence.
Uh-huh.
And the source of a lot of this is extremely compromised and very questionable, and there's going to have to be an awful lot more concrete stuff in front of me before I'm going to believe that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Oh, John does, too.
We could talk about the sketches.
Let's do that.
Let's do that.
Okay.
I'm sorry if I seem a little scatterbrained.
That's alright.
It kind of caught me late in the day.
Let's see, I spent two hours talking to Deborah Nakanashi, who is a post office employee, and it was from her description of her John Doe II that the third picture of John Doe II was sketched.
And that's the side view?
The profile side view, yes.
They had the first picture that looks like it was drawn off of a photograph.
Yes, that we know is John Doe number 2.
Right.
Then they added a hat because nobody was finding the John Doe 2.
And that didn't cut the mustard.
So they went back and interviewed everyone who said they thought they'd seen him.
We also know that he was wearing that hat.
That exact hat on many different occasions.
They drew a sketch of Deborah John Doe number 2 and she spent 8 hours with the FBI sketch
artist revising and working and fixing and came up with this drawing and presented it
to the public as a profile view of the same man pictured in drawing number 1 and drawing
number 2.
But we know that that is definitely not the same man as the first and second drawings
that they put out to the public as John Doe number 2.
Absolutely and Deborah is convinced that her John Doe is not at all the same man.
No it's not we know that.
So she's right.
Yeah she is right.
But the FBI has not spoken to her since they did the sketches.
He was not called before the grand jury.
I put her in contact with the investigating team for Stephen Jones because they wanted to interview her also and came to find out that this private investigating firm that was handling the FBI 302 witness statements, the 302 forms, So they didn't want the defense to ever be able to contact us?
That's correct.
So we threw a little wrench in the works there and now they're in touch with Ms.
Nakanashi.
So the FBI gave her statement to the defense but with no way to follow up at all.
So they didn't want the defense to ever be able to contact her.
That's correct.
So we threw a little wrench in the works there and now they're in touch with Ms. Makanashi.
Well, the Gestapo never changes its tactics.
Oh, you wouldn't believe some of the things that the people that work for this investigative
firm told me.
The listening audience would if they would.
Well in dealing with these 302's, there must be 25,000 of them to begin with.
And when the defense received the papers they weren't in any kind of order.
They weren't in alphabetical order.
They were in numerical order based on the order in which people were interviewed.
Which is impossible to find your way through.
Sure.
There was no index or anything.
Yeah and of course that's not done intentionally.
Well if you believe that I've got some swamp land to sell.
I think it was definitely intentional.
Sure it was.
And when they finally got a handle and got an index on the 302s they began pulling certain 302s and going back and doing interviews with those witnesses.
And they went into the state of Kansas to interview a woman who worked for a particular
store according to the 302.
And they got to the store and went to the manager and they were asking to talk to this
woman and they were told that no one by that name worked there.
And they said well but see we've got this statement here that says that she worked at
this location and this address and all this stuff.
And the manager of the store took the 302 and looked at it and she saw under the personal
information section her own home address, her own phone number, her own date of birth
and a different name.
And it's just been, oh these poor investigators, they tell stories that would give you nightmares.
Well, we know that the federal government from the beginning has been sabotaging every investigation that is taking place except for their own.
And their own is not a legitimate investigation.
No, not at all.
Because they're deliberately not looking into things that we have solid evidence to prove.
And they're making up evidence where none existed to prove something else.
That's right.
And they're protecting their own people who were involved in this and actually blew up that building.
Oh, absolutely.
Of that there's no doubt.
Of that there's no doubt.
So, I don't know what we do about this except lay the information out before the court of public opinion.
Well, we're certainly doing that.
I guess we are.
There was a recent article, I forget if it was the Rocky Mountain News or the Denver Post, that spoke of another alleged John Doe witness.
What was his name, Mike Klopfer?
Yeah.
I'm sure of the last name, I'm not sure of the first.
It was K-L-O-P-F-E-R, Klopfer.
Yes, you're correct.
Okay.
And he I guess was an associate of McVeigh's when McVeigh worked for a guard firm in New
York.
And the co-worker, not the John Doe, but the co-worker of McVeigh came forward and said
that he thought that Klopfer was a John Doe because the John Doe didn't come to work the
day of the bombing and kind of looked like the picture and all I could say to that was
so he flew in from New York to do the bombing and flew back and missed a day of work.
I really can't make much sense out of that and nobody else's either.
No and of course there's been no photograph of this person produced that anybody has been able to look at.
No and as far as I know there's also been no contact with the man.
There's not even indication of where he lives now or whether or not he still works for that firm.
So at this moment that's a dead end.
Well I have to back up a little.
We know that he does not still work for that firm.
Okay yeah yeah yeah.
I'm just trying to put together in my head where we've been.
We've traversed a lot of territory in the past few weeks on this with the uh recent hearings up in Denver and um I'm just still there are some things about this that just really disturb me.
I'm still very disturbed By Stephen Jones' decision not to pursue the question of where were the BATF officials.
He agreed to that because he said that the BATF guys told him where they were at the time of the bombing and he doesn't believe that they would lie to him.
Stephen Jones throughout his career has represented the interests of the people who blew up that building.
Why should he?
He's going to cooperate to the extent that he either gets McVeigh off or McVeigh gets convicted, but he's not going to spill the beans on who really did it, I can assure you, because he's part of that whole thing.
He has been representing the interests of Marxist Socialism and the Communist International
for his whole career.
He represented Angela Davis.
Yeah, and doesn't Ty Garner have some sort of a notorious case in his history also?
Well, it's not just a notorious case with Stephen Jones.
You see, if he just represented only Angela Davis, that wouldn't be nothing to hang a
hat on because that just might have been the card that came up that day.
But he has consistently and always represented in court Communists and Marxist Socialists
and their organizations his whole career.
He is one of them is what I'm trying to tell you.
Yes, and I've always been disturbed by his emphasis on saying that we've got this overseas
Yes.
connection and foreign terrorists who brought this about and I simply cannot document such
a thing. Everything that we can document about other players makes them homegrown.
Yes. And we've got FBI and DATF and CIA players all present.
Oh yes. And we know that they would like to make it look like it was some kind of other thing.
And we know that there are players in this intentionally put in the way.
Oh yes.
That there's no doubt.
In order to direct attention in that, down that road I should say.
Even the people who want to pursue the alleged Barbooty Connection and Wackenhut and all that Can't stop with that.
That does not create your Middle Eastern connection.
That creates your Central Intelligence Agency connection.
That is Central Intelligence Agency.
Right.
Because all of these different businesses that the son of Barbooty now operates in the United States, both in Dallas and Houston and in Florida, were all allowed to occur.
And some of them have government money attached to them.
Yes.
The players so far that we know are definitely involved with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Mossad, and the Anti-Defamation League.
We have solid evidence that all of these people are involved in the bombing of that building.
Right.
This is true.
we do.
So bring over a few foreign looking people that speak with accents, that does not make
them responsible at all.
But they're part of the cover up.
In place deliberately and probably didn't even know that they were being used in that
way.
Of course not.
You know, same thing for poor Mr. McVeigh.
He's the Patsy.
He's the Patsy.
Just like Lee Harvey Oswald was the Patsy in the Kennedy assassination.
Lee Harvey Oswald was not some socialist nut who defected to Russia.
Lee Harvey Oswald was recruited while in the Marine Corps by the Central Intelligence Agency and was working on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency as an agent in the Soviet Union.
And even when he returned home, was still working for the Central Intelligence Agency.
Most people don't know that this was admitted during the Warren Report hearings and in hearings later when they reopened the Kennedy assassination investigation.
And the same thing is occurring here in Oklahoma City.
Oh yeah, without question.
And when we go back and look at the objective of total disarmament, this is where you find all of the logic and reasoning behind the presence of the Strassmayer, Russia, Elohim City connections and all the attempts to tie this whole thing into a militia.
Yes.
If they can't do that, Then this was all for nothing.
Well, that's what it's coming to, is that it was all for nothing.
Their first attempt failed.
Nobody from the militia in all of their travels across the United States, except for Gary Hunt, fell into their clutches and agreed to help them.
No one agreed to hide John Doe No.
2 in his escape route, which would have been, you know, had he been hit by any militia.
By any so-called neo-Nazi or white supremacist group.
He would have already been caught by now, you know, being taken care of by those people
and it would be across the headlines all over the place.
But they couldn't find any dummies.
But that's what they were trying to do in their many travels across the country and
their visitations of militia leaders and patriots and known white supremacist groups, you know,
few as those groups may be.
That's what that was all about.
Right, and it's never going to fly.
But that's why they've got to have people out there like John Cash, bamboozling everybody
and throwing out a bunch of unsubstantiated stuff and making aspersions on people's character
to keep promulgating the same thing.
You have to keep stirring it up and stirring it up and stirring it up when the Elohim City issue began to die out.
Then he stirred it up and brings in Stroessmeier.
That begins to die out and he stirs it up again and brings in Brescia.
That begins to die out so we've got to tie it into some murders in Arkansas of the Mueller family.
This is not going to fly.
No.
It's not going to work.
There's nothing substantive to tie this together at all.
No.
In any way.
No, and even if they could tie it to Stroessmeier, we already know that Stroessmeier came to this country specifically to work for the intelligence community.
Right, he did.
So, I mean, if they could tie it in there would be a nice link and this whole thing may backfire on them if they try to pursue that too hard.
Yeah, I think it already has, but we'll see what comes down the pike.
Where do we go now?
Oh, gosh, Bill.
Take us by the hand and lead us through La La Land.
Take us by the hand?
Oh, Lordy Pete.
That's where we are.
That's where we are.
We're in La La Land.
Do you need to do a commercial break?
You want me to do a commercial break?
Would you and let me close some files?
Sure.
Okay, thanks.
Be right back.
Hello?
I'm William Cooper.
Our guest this afternoon is Michelle Marie Moore, the author of Oklahoma City, Day One.
We'll return in just a couple of moments.
And where are you?
Hello?
Are you there?
I am here.
Well, good.
Let's go.
Go for it.
Alright, I want to leap into an item that appeared in the Rocky Mountain News.
It was discussing evidence about the case and these witnesses that are going to be called.
Some of them that have been named and then it mentioned without naming the owner of a small convenience store located near the Regency Tower apartment.
Well, we know that the owner of the little store by the Regency Tower apartment's name is Danny Wilkerson, but I don't believe he's being called.
He was interviewed by the FBI because he originally stated that he saw a Ryder truck in front of the building prior to the bombing, but the truck that he saw is not the right truck.
He describes a very small Ryder truck, old style, with an overhang.
And the truck, of course, that Mike Moreau saw up at Joe's Tire Center on Northwest 10th was a larger, newer yellow Ryder truck with a sliding side door.
No cab over.
No cab over, right.
And what's happening right now is going back through all of the different accounts that I have of people who saw the truck and seeing how many we have with overhangs and how many without.
Because there's definitely several different kinds.
And I believe that the woman up at the Dreamland Motel spoke of seeing the newer one without.
And the people who reported seeing the truck at Geary Lake when the bomb was allegedly being built That was an old style with overhang.
So we've got too many different kinds of trucks in this story.
And recent breaking news, that hasn't hit the media yet though, were the discovery of two, what are they called?
Rims?
Wheels?
Not tires, but what the... Wheels.
Wheels.
13 or 14 inch white that were blown a couple of blocks west of the Murrah building and
these are alleged to have belonged to the bomb vehicle.
Not if it was a Ryder rental truck.
That's my point.
I think of the very small little compact vehicles that I've driven through the years that have
had 13 or 14 inch tires, wheels, and I don't see anything that size being on a cargo carrier.
No, not the size that this truck is said to have been.
And they, you know, they have not left themselves any leeway.
They have said that it is specifically this truck with this VIN number and we know it
came from this place and it can carry 4,000 pounds of you know.
So they have boxed themselves in and now they have small wheels that they can't put anywhere
except on something that blew up, right?
That's the story.
And the problems that we have with the VIN number is that they aren't VIN numbers anyway.
It's a part number.
Sure.
And the investigation of the part number leads us to a large and generalized lot of 1994
Yes.
And I am not sure that they have stopped doing the trucks with the overhang.
Yeah, but the feds have specifically said it's a BIN number.
They've said it on many occasions.
Oh yeah.
Oh yes, of course.
But it's not.
No.
It's a part number.
It's just another lie.
Yeah, it is another lie.
But in talking about boxing themselves into a corner, If they've boxed themselves into a 1994 model they may not get their truck with the overhang and that may be why they've got to get rid of Danny Wilkerson as a witness.
They're going to have to get rid of a lot of witnesses.
Well I know including all the Gary Lake witnesses and it's the Gary Lake sightings on which they face the building of the bomb.
You know because they go out there and they find a little kerosene here and stuff and they go oh this must be the place.
Maybe that's their plan.
Well, perhaps.
the top of a rider's truck over a hill.
It's so circumstantial.
You just can't put something together that's going to convict these men beyond a reasonable
doubt with anything that the prosecution has right now.
Maybe that's their plan.
Well, perhaps.
Maybe the whole thing is to not convict them so that there will be a tremendous cry throughout
the nation to get rid of our system of trial by jury.
As we have discussed.
Coupled with the O.J.
debacle, it wouldn't be hard to do, would it?
No, it wouldn't.
And I've never forgotten Stephen Jones' comment very shortly after he took Richard Coyle's place as McVeigh's defense attorney when he publicly stated that the O.J.
trial was designed to destroy the jury system.
And that the bombing trial would destroy the credibility of eyewitnesses.
Well, I've got to tell you that I don't like anywhere where this is going.
It's all going toward the destruction of constitutional Republican government and freedom for the American people.
That's exactly where all of this is headed.
And that's exactly what it was designed to do from the get-go.
Yeah, I'm looking here at an article that appeared in the London Telegraph right after the election.
The headline reads, Bomb that gave Clinton victory could still return to haunt him.
And the first two paragraphs read, quote, Relaxing on Air Force One after the election, Bill Clinton told reporters it was the Oklahoma bombing that proved the turning point in his political fortunes.
It was the moment when the militias, the Christian right, and the Gingrich onslaught against government Yeah, but the only reason it did that was because of the media propaganda and lies, and the lies from the mouth of Bill Clinton and government officials, because there is no connection with the bombing of any of those people.
Yeah, but the only reason it did that was because of the media propaganda and lies,
and the lies from the mouth of Bill Clinton and government officials, because there is
no connection with the bombing of any of those people.
Oh, I know.
Clinton's statements are absolutely absurd, but it's very telling that he attributes the
bombing to the turn of his political fortunes.
Yes.
I believe that the bombing did definitely turn his political fortune.
Oh, there's no doubt about it.
It freaked people out enough to cause them to throw away every freedom they ever had with both hands because they were afraid of dying a death by terrorism.
And thought that government could save them.
And desert and vilify those who have traditionally protected freedom in this country.
Right.
Right.
I mean, he seized the moment and blamed right-wing radio talk shows for showing distrust of government institutions.
And it's the Clinton mindset that Yes, absolutely, correct.
Yes, absolutely correct.
There is nothing happening in the media to counteract the climate of hate that this whole
thing is creating and it is not being created within the minds of grass roots people.
It is being thrust upon them and propagandized to the point that what you hear most often
is what you eventually come to believe.
Even when you do have a group that people could dislike that are doing nothing.
There are some neo-Nazi groups and some white supremacists in this country but they are
not harming anybody.
They are not out doing anything.
They are not blowing up buildings.
They did not blow up the Alfred P. Murrow Federal Building and yet they are being vilified
and propagandized so that they...
They are now hated by people that they've never hurt or seen or damaged in their life.
And I'm not sticking up for what these people believe.
I don't believe in what they believe, but I believe that anybody in America has a right to believe anything they want to believe as long as they're not hurting the person or property of any other human being on this earth.
Right and the only way to get rid of these rights to believe what we want to believe
is to break everything down into a state of anarchy and then reform it as something we
never imagined it would be.
And I don't know of a patriot in this country who wants that.
No.
Ordo ab caeo is what you are describing.
I guess it is.
That is exactly what it is.
And that is the motto of who?
Well the secret society.
Yes.
The business of order out of chaos.
I am not sure how to go into this.
I was looking through a lot of the transcripts of old episodes of The Hour of the Times and found some very interesting events that had occurred in the past that have been proved to have been caused by members of the Seekers Society and they are paralleled in many, many instances identically with events that are being associated with the bombings.
You just have to go, history is repeating itself because we didn't know the history.
And people are stupid to think that all of these things are accidents and that one little old guy could have a Waco grudge and go and blow up a building or that white supremacists would blow up a building in which mostly white people worked.
White supremacists never do that.
No, they don't.
When they attack someone, when they have attacked people in the past, Throughout the history of the world, racism is directed at people of other races, not against your own people.
The allegation from the beginning that racists blew up a building full of white people, white supremacists did that, is ludicrous.
It doesn't make sense any way you look at it, and never will, because white supremacists would never do such a thing.
No, they wouldn't.
They wouldn't at all.
And the only people who can possibly benefit from this backlash of the bombing are the people who want to take it all away because they are taking it all away and much, much faster since the bombing.
Yes.
And they're not being challenged and they're not being questioned.
I don't know of anybody who's going before Judge Mache and saying the feds don't have jurisdiction in this case.
It needs to be handled at the state level.
Or it needs to be tried in Oklahoma because that's where the crime occurred.
Or the federal grand jury was corrupted and controlled by the prosecution and it needs to be redone.
Of course you can't redo it.
Well the truth is nobody needs to do it.
Judge Mache knows that already.
The question is, why is Judge Mash not enforcing the law?
Why is he allowing this?
Well, you'd have to ask him.
I don't know why he's doing what he's doing.
Well, I'm just asking these questions for the listening audience.
I know perfectly well why he's doing what he's doing, and he's not going to put one finger in anything that's not brought up in front of his court by somebody else upon whom he can lay the blame.
Yeah.
That's what he's doing.
He's a coward, like the rest of the lily-livered cowards out there who know exactly what's going on and aren't doing anything, but leaving it up to people like us.
Yes, and I get kind of uncomfortable feelings about recent things coming up about Stephen Jones.
Remember that speech he made last November at OU when he said, if you knew what I know, and you will, you'd never feel the same way about the United States government again.
and then he closed up his Enid office within the last month and transported everything to Denver to
get ready for the trial and took out a full page ad in the Enid newspaper to tell his friends and
neighbors and clients farewell. Goodbye. He quoted extensively from Lincoln's farewell address when
he left Illinois to go to Washington. And there's just been an awful lot of things little things
that Jones has done that kind of makes you wonder if he's allowing himself to be a sacrificial lamb
of some sort and deliberately not pursuing the case with everything that he is and knows and
could do because he owes his allegiances elsewhere.
And that's what I would suspect.
Well, you could be right.
Only time will tell.
He's either going to get them off and do the damage that way or he's going to get them convicted.
Well see there's no righteous outcome of any movement that's been put in place on this.
Oh yes there is.
The righteous outcome would be if justice was done.
And if it was done properly and if the law was upheld, but it hasn't been that way from the beginning.
Well, that's what I'm saying.
The wheels that have been set in motion are not going to bring us to justice.
If the guys are acquitted, then everybody is upset and riots in the streets and anarchy could result and the judicial system could totally be wiped out.
And tumbling down.
And that may be the whole objective of this whole scenario.
That may be the whole objective, yes.
And if they execute these guys, They're not ever going to deal with the issue of who really did it.
Yeah.
I don't think that they're going to execute these guys.
I really don't.
I don't see how they can.
And justice is certainly not going to be done.
The truth is certainly not going to come out.
But there wouldn't be rioting in the streets if somebody would step forward and begin to tell the truth and other people would follow that and we could, you know, see that justice is done.
There are rumors afloat about certain BATF agents and DEA agents going to come forward and do this and that, but I've now been hearing this for over a month.
And so far nothing has happened publicly.
Personally I don't believe any of it.
I don't believe that they would be FBI or DEA or BATF agents if they had that bent in the first place.
They certainly wouldn't be involved in any kind of a project that would require the utmost secrecy.
And dedication to the cause.
At least that's my opinion.
Well as I say, it's just rumors and nothing has happened publicly.
Now these men in question, they know that we know.
And they know that they've lied and they've been caught in that lie.
Yes.
And I don't know how much pressure we can bring to bear to cause them to admit it, if ever.
If it ever happens.
But there's a lot of very nervous people in this town right now.
Yes.
And there's also been an awful lot of media in this town recently.
And once again we're looking at the rumor that 2020 is going to do something on Friday night, which they might do.
Roger Charles with ABC was in town again a week before last.
And did tell the victims that he was interviewing that Anakin was in the works and this program would air on Friday the 17th.
But we've heard this before.
We heard it in November, we heard it in December, now we're hearing it in January.
Same date too.
Pardon me?
17th was the same date each time too.
Do you remember that?
Was it?
Yes it was the 17th.
I have it marked here.
Remember we were looking forward to seeing it?
Yes, we were.
I just didn't remember that it was also the 17th.
Yes, it was.
Well, there you go.
In any event, I do not foresee ABC News doing anything at all ever significant Not with Camerata.
of the bombing. They come and interview people all day long if they want to, but they're
not doing anything with what they know. And the same thing with Joseph Camarata, who has
been in town last September and has been in contact with witnesses and victims ever since.
Investigating this thing, there's not going to be a lawsuit against the federal government
or any agents named or otherwise. Not with Camarata representing these people.
This information is being collected and it's being swept under the rug. And I think that
under the rug and I think that by sending someone of Camerata's prestige and high
by sending someone of Camarata's prestige and high publicity profile into Oklahoma City
publicity profile into Oklahoma City to collect clients has a great soothing effect on disgruntled
to collect clients, has the effect of making the state and This information is being collected and it's being swept
family members.
Uh huh.
Also good.
They may feel that they've done their duty and they've told all they know and now it's
just a matter of waiting for the wheels of justice to grind but they're not going to
be put in motion.
No.
Not at all.
Nothing will come of that.
Right.
And this just leaves us with the court of public opinion and that's why the book is so important.
Volume 2 and Volume 3 are going to be incredibly important because it's not going to come out
any other way.
Volume 1 is incredibly important.
Those who have purchased it and read it already know that.
It's tremendous work.
The disclosures in Volume 1 nowhere near approach what's going to come out in Volume 2 and Volume 3 that we know.
But are so shocking and so revealing that people don't understand how it could get any worse, but it's going to, isn't it?
Well, it is worse.
In Volume 2, we're going to have to deal with our different John Doe's, different witnesses who have been murdered because of what they knew.
Oh, it's unbelievable what we've got.
Statements by law enforcement of what they saw.
A falsification of federal records.
Falsification of autopsy reports.
The disappearance of records.
This thing is so dark and so nasty and so deep and so big, people just... It's going to be very hard for folks to grasp.
And that's why we've got to, you know, as we were in volume one, just take it slow and step by step and document absolutely everything as we go along so you don't get lost in the shuffle.
Yes, because there are mountains of information.
Yes, literally, literally mountains.
Just your reports to me have totaled thousands of pages so far.
Thousands, literally thousands.
I would believe that.
I've been trying to do some filing because I got tired of pole vaulting across the dining room you know.
Well I haven't given Connie her reports to file yet and I'm sort of hesitating to do that because she might run out the door screaming.
Well if I were your secretary I would.
I would definitely turn it around.
I know what's in there and what has to be done and it would be an overwhelming task.
Yes it is.
But the amount of information that is solid, provable, backed up by independent, corroborative witnesses and statements, it is overwhelming and it is going to paint a completely different picture of this event than the public has been led to accept as true.
And I just hope they're ready for it because it's going to shake the roots.
Boy, I'll tell you that chime, that clock chiming in the background there... I'll move out of the living room.
Sorry.
Sent chills up my spine.
It just came in just like it was right there on cue.
Well, it was about 5 feet away from me.
I guess it came through kind of loudly.
But I moved out of the living room into another room.
You want to go for another half hour?
We're done at 6 o'clock.
We're done at 6 o'clock if I want to be done at 6 o'clock.
It's my network.
Oh, if you want to do 30 minutes, we can do 30 more minutes.
Okay, we'll do 30 more minutes and let me see.
How am I going to get out of here now?
I've got to get out of here with something.
Let me look.
Let me look and see what I've got.
That would just be for your satellite lister.
No, it won't be for short wave.
We're off a short wave as a matter of fact.
We probably just went off a short wave just now.
for short wave. No it won't be for short wave. We're off a short wave as a matter of fact.
Okay.
We probably just went off a short wave just now. Okay. So that's gone. Okay.
Okay.
So, here we go.
We'll do this.
I have no idea what's going to come up here.
I don't even know.
I don't know.
Okay, we'll see you in just a couple of minutes, okay?
Okay.
Let's do this.
We'll be right back.
You're listening to the Hour of the Time on the World Wide Freedom Radio Network.
Let's try this one.
We will return after a brief pause to let Michelle get her breath and to do the network
break.
We will return after a brief pause to let Michelle get her breath and to do the network
break.
This is the Voice of Freedom.
This is the Voice of Freedom.
We will return after a brief pause to let Michelle get her breath and to do the network
.
Thank you for listening to the Worldwide Freedom Radio Network.
The hour of the time, ladies and gentlemen, is going for an additional 30 minutes on our Phyllis stations if you wish to stick with us.
And, of course, on satellite, we have left shortwave worldwide for the moment.
That is, until tomorrow.
And we're going to be digging out some more of this nasty stuff from the Oklahoma City bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.
So don't go away.
We'll be right back.
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