Voddie Baucham is at The Babylon Bee to talk about CRT in the church, gospel patriarchy, and how you can do Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for the Lord. He also has thoughts about how to celebrate pride month right. This episode is brought to you by Issues, Etc: http://issuesetc.org Keep up with Pastor Voddie: https://www.voddiebaucham.org Keep up with the work at African Christian University: http://acu-usa.com/ Make sure to check out Wrath And Grace: https://wrathandgrace.com/ In the full-length, ad-free podcast for subscribers to The Babylon Bee only, Pastor Voddie talks about the alphabet mafia and the definitive signs your church is going woke. He also talks about what it was like to almost become president of the SBC and that one question The Babylon Bee asked Elon Musk.
And if I'm being faithful where I am and I am, you know, living out my Christian walk and I'm being responsible in all three spheres, right?
He's given us the family.
He's given us the church.
He's given us the civil government.
If I'm being faithful in those three spheres and I am effectively living out my Christian convictions in those three spheres, then number one, it is going to be inevitable that I'm going to do some culture warring.
Right.
There we go.
Because if they hated Christ, they will hate us, right?
So again, faithfulness in those three spheres will lead me to the battle.
And now it's time for another interview on the Babylon Bee Podcast.
Hey guys, Kyle here.
Recently, I spoke to over 500 Lutherans at the Issues Etc. making the case conference at Concordia University, Chicago.
I had a great experience.
You wouldn't think that an entire room full of Lutherans would be any fun, but trust me, they were a hoot.
We had a blast talking about everything from serious theological topics to lighter issues, like jokes and what God has done for us by giving us humor, all kinds of fun stuff that we got to do.
And they were just an absolute blast.
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Go Lutherans.
Thank you guys for tuning in to the interview show here at the Babylon Bee podcast.
With me, as always, is Sam Greer.
I'm Jared LeMaster, and with us today is Vodie Bockham.
Yes, sir.
And we are really blessed to have you.
This is like a big honor.
I'm happy to be in the hive, man.
Yes.
I like that.
I like calling it the hive.
I think that's a really good way.
I think that's an appropriate name.
It is a hive of activity around here most of the time.
Not today so much, but.
Yeah, I'm hoping it wasn't like people found out I was coming and they just.
They're like, I think I'm like, that booty.
I've got things to do.
We just wrapped up June.
Did you do anything special to celebrate Pride Month?
Absolutely nothing.
Yeah, absolutely nothing.
I waited until it was over to come back.
I accidentally attended two Pride events and I didn't mean to.
I went to the Dodger game on that Friday.
And I didn't know.
My friend got me tickets.
And we just decided to go.
And it happened to be the time when the Sisterhood of the Perpetual.
And then I was in New York City in Times Square when they did the Pride March and I didn't know that was that day either.
I think everybody ought to see one.
Well, I've seen a lot of jockstraps.
I think everybody.
I'm serious.
I think people have to do it.
A lot of radio.
People have no idea.
People have no idea the debauchery that surrounds those events.
And I think if people knew, even when the news covers those events, they don't cover that part.
You get the sanitized pictures, partly because, you know, they can allow it to craft it.
Exactly.
They allow you to show that stuff, but also to sanitize it, you know, so that people think, no, this is just, you know, wholesome.
We want to be like everybody else.
And no, it's not that.
No.
Yeah, it's gross, man.
It was terrible.
Well, we're glad you're here with us now.
We're in beginning of July.
It's also a Monday.
I know you lean Sunday Sabbatarian, correct?
Yes.
Now, let me ask, if you, well, first off, if you're bench pressing on a Sunday, is it work?
Depends on how much is on the bench.
Yes.
How much is on the bar for you?
How much can you put up these days?
It depends on how many, how many wheels you have on there, you know?
Anything more than two wheels, you know?
I think that's what the Sadducees said.
You got three wheels on there, four wheels on there.
I'm going to say you're working.
Yeah.
The Pharisees were.
Yeah, they would say that too.
I think that was part of the thing.
But if you're doing sit-ups after the sunset, I think that's actually in the book of hesitations.
First hesitation.
Not second hesitations.
That's right.
First hesitation.
Yeah, it's interesting.
I was just reading about Jesus.
He said, my father and I have been working from the beginning.
Yeah.
He said so.
He probably was lifting a lot on those days.
But in all seriousness, we're glad you're healthy and still putting up weight.
Can you back up a hair?
Two years ago, a lot of us tuned in and paid attention when your heart issues happened.
Can you unpack how that affected you theologically?
Did you have more trust in God?
What happened there?
Yeah.
Those were some interesting times.
And from a theological perspective, it wasn't like, you know, my theology changed.
It was more like it was confirmed, right?
And we were encouraged because of what we had, you know, constantly been reminding ourselves of and what I've been constantly teaching both publicly and in my home.
It was comforting to not have to change my theology during that time.
It was comforting to not have to try to go and find something, you know, that was suitable for the occasion.
And so it was more of a time of confirmation.
I tell you what, Paul's words, you know, for me to live as Christ, to die is gain, and that whole section there where he's dealing with the benefits of staying and the benefits of going and, you know, being a father with children still in the house and grandkids coming and things of that nature.
I mean, there was a lot of that thinking.
But the Lord was kind, man.
I've often told people the story of, you know, my wife having a conversation with someone, you know, I'm in the hotel room and people try to be encouraging, you know, and a lot of people were saying, no, you know, he's going to make it.
You know, the Lord's using him.
The Lord's not done with him.
You know, all the things that he's doing, yada, yada, yada.
And I just remember my wife in a conversation saying, no, the Lord's no man's debtor.
And he doesn't need Vodhi.
Right.
So, I mean, I don't want him to go, but, you know, if he, the Lord didn't need him, you know.
And I was like, good for you.
Wow.
Good for you.
That's tough.
Yeah.
But you, that's a tough place to come to.
Yeah.
And so when you're saying your theology was solid, how exactly do you mean, like, in terms of your health or in terms of God's providence?
Or yeah, in terms of God's providence, in terms of his sovereignty, just, you know, in terms of all those things.
And it was, it was really, it was amazing.
We got to see God's just kind providences in that whole process, you know, and just in things that happened when and how they needed to happen for me to get the care that I needed.
I showed up at Mayo within an hour or two of my death.
Oh, wow.
You know, yeah.
Yeah.
Wow, that's amazing.
I'm glad they didn't tell me that for the first day.
They didn't tell me that for the first day or so, you know.
But a couple of days in, you know, they were like, yeah, you were in stage.
You were dead.
You were done.
How long were you dead?
What's that?
How long were you dead?
You know?
How long was I dead?
Oh, I thought you said that.
No, Oh, within a couple of hours.
Oh, good for this.
I thought you had like, I thought you were going to tell us an NDE story.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
One of those little kids that died.
Yeah, yeah, no.
Heaven is for real, too.
Yes.
Bodhi Bakum.
No, yes, that story.
Not that.
Well, we're grateful you're still here and still in good health.
Your nine children, I'm sure, are grateful.
And one of the ways you stay in shape is something you have in common.
Oh, yeah, Eric, can we?
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
Yeah, talk about it.
BJJ.
Like, how have you, what belt are you?
Like, how long have you studied?
Where did you study?
Like, I'm interested.
Yeah, yeah.
So are you a Carlos Christian guy or in 2012?
Okay, great.
And it was just kind of, again, a providential thing.
My oldest son, the last four, four and a half years of his education, we homeschool.
He traveled with me full time.
And then, you know, when he was done, you know, he was off doing a bunch of different things.
And we just missed each other, you know?
And so he started looking into different martial arts stuff.
And, you know, we talked about that from a theological perspective.
Yeah.
And so we found Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
And Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, as you know, doesn't have the theological background, right?
Because of the way it originated and where it came from.
It doesn't have a theological background.
Yeah, there's no like spiritual component.
Yeah.
There's no meditation, no Eastern mysticism.
Right.
Yeah.
And your, your black belts are called professor.
Yep.
You know, not master or sensei or professor, you know?
And so we started doing that and I was like a duck in water.
It's the best, right?
It was the best.
And it was the most challenging thing that I had ever done in my life.
It was amazing how, you know, being a big, strong guy, you know, I'm the biggest, strongest guy in there, but I can't handle any of these guys who've been here for a while, right?
Yeah.
Which just confirmed everything that I needed to know about it.
And so I reached Blue Belt, which, again, for people who don't know about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, it takes a couple of years to get your blue belt.
And then after that, we moved to Lusaka and there's nowhere to train.
There's no BJJ there.
So I was there for a few years and just would train here, there, the other.
So I'm a blue belt forever.
And then we started the first Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Academy in Zambia.
Wow.
And so.
Do you have professors there?
Are you teaching?
I was it.
I was it.
So, you know, our, you know, my, my professor in Houston, Travis Took, he got his black belt under Carlos Pacey Jr.
Really?
Yeah.
And so that's, that's, that is my lineage, interestingly enough that you mentioned it.
Yeah.
Um, and so, you know, he kind of, you know, mentored me from afar.
And, you know, we became kind of a satellite and used their curriculum and all that.
And so I earned my purple belt, you know.
Okay.
And then the world ended.
Oh, yeah.
COVID hit.
Right.
And then my heart.
So I haven't been able to.
I've been on the mats a couple of times since then, but we lost our building and all of that.
So, yeah, again, I've been doing it for a decade, but I'm still purple because out of that decade, probably half of it I haven't been training.
But that's not uncommon.
Like I think a lot of people have to take time off.
They go through things.
You get little injuries here and there.
The average is something like 10 years to 10 to 12.
Yeah, like 12 years is so crazy.
The guy that first started teaching me got his black belt under Hoist Gracie.
And then I switched over to a Gracie Baja gym, which is kind of, it's more like a belt factory.
I probably shouldn't say that out loud, but it's easier to get your blue and stuff.
They have a structure.
And, you know, like it's good for kids because you like can, you know, every month you get a new stripe.
I got a question for both of you because I have no BJJ background.
You want us to roll right now?
I want you to roll.
No, how have you avoided cauliflower ear?
You've both got intact ears.
And I thought that was the thing with BJJ.
They give you your black belt and then they box your ears for a while.
It's hereditary, I think.
Is it?
I'm not exactly sure, but there are, yeah, there are some guys who.
I think my ears have grown since then.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You just keep people off your head, man.
And a lot of those tend to be guys who have wrestling backgrounds.
Yeah, that's true.
You know, yeah, a lot of those guys tend to have more wrestling backgrounds and do more no-gi stuff, you know, because the gi that they do.
The bathrobe.
Yeah, the bathroom.
That you roll around with other men.
So it's kind of getting grabbed on the giant.
They're grabbing you on the ears.
It is an incredibly manly sport.
And I've talked about this often.
You know, men, especially in this day where masculinity is marginalized, men look for things that are masculine.
And ironically, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is incredibly masculine, but not for the reason people think.
You know, for one thing, there is this sense of discipleship and mentoring.
That's the only way you advance, right?
Is you have to humble yourself.
Yes, you do.
You have to humble yourself, which is something that men need.
The other thing is that there's technical mastery, right?
And men are, you know, they're all about, you know, technical mastery.
The other thing is it is the highest expression of gentleness.
It's referred to as the gentle art, right?
In most martial arts, you use maximum force to subdue your opponent.
You hit him as hard as you can.
You kick him as hard as you can.
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is designed around the idea of using the minimum amount of force necessary to subdue an opponent.
You use the least amount of energy and the least amount of effort necessary to subdue an opponent.
And it is the epitome of strength and power under control.
And so you can have people of various sizes and all this kind of stuff who are sparring with one another.
And men, men are attracted to that.
And not to mention the fact that it's just, it's just, it's the toughest workout schedule.
Really hard.
No, I'm drenched.
I'm drenched in sweat.
So I have four boys.
We're all doing it.
So me and my four boys are all doing it.
And what I always teach them is you have to learn how to lose well.
Yes.
And I think that's one of the biggest lessons that you can learn doing any kind of sport.
But I think in particular for jiu-jitsu, it's a great discipleship tool if you're talking about learning how to control your emotions.
Learn about getting tapped out.
Yeah, learn about getting tapped out, giving up, not having your pride kind of rise up and all those things.
That's really good for your spirit.
And it's good for your walk with Christ, like I find, because it's like you have to learn how to submit to Christ too.
The other thing for me, the other thing for me, you know, when you're in pastoral ministry, within the first few years, you don't have any lost friends anymore.
Right?
You don't, you just don't.
Everybody that you're around is at the church.
Yeah.
Right.
Your life is at the church and at home.
You know, you're not a part of any social groups or organizations or any of that stuff.
Everybody that you know is a Christian, you know, unless some person comes to the church or whatever.
But when I started training and then competing in BJJ, I had legitimate friendships.
Yeah.
Intimate friendships because that physical proximity, man.
Yeah.
You know, all your guards are down.
And I had friends who just, who were lost.
And it was incredible, you know, to be able to be involved in that kind of ministry again and to have those kinds of relationships again.
And it really affected the way that even I preached because I'm thinking about these people, you know, who I'm with multiple times a week and who don't believe this stuff and who don't just accept this stuff.
And so it was really helpful for me in that regard, too.
I love that.
I'm having the same experience right now because I just love it.
I love all the people that I get to roll around with.
And every week I get to meet someone new.
It's a massive class.
And so I'm getting to know all these non-believers and it's been great.
So that's one of the things you do in Zambia.
Are you going to pick it back up after, you know?
We plan to.
Yeah.
But, you know, got to find the time and then we've got to find this place.
Right.
Yeah.
So, but what else do you do in Zambia?
Tell us more about your ministry work in Zambia.
So, yeah, we went there, believe it or not, eight years ago, next month, to help start the African Christian University.
It's a classical Christian liberal arts university offering degrees in agriculture, business education, and theology, and looking to move into both fine arts and the heart sciences, biology, chemistry, nursing, health sciences, stuff like that.
And it's an unbelievable place in that we have, you know, this commitment to classical education.
Like all of our students take Latin their whole first year.
But at the same time, we have a student labor program where we're teaching biblical work ethic and students having to learn how to work well.
So I always tell people it's early Ivy League meets Tuskegee Institute.
And it's been an incredibly fruitful work and something that it's been a privilege for me to be a part of over the years.
How many students do you guys have?
I think right now we're probably broke 100 now.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Congratulations.
Yeah, it's been good.
What are some issues that the church in Zambia faces?
We in the U.S. have hand-wringing over many things.
Does the church in Zambia also worry about diversity quotas?
You know, that's one of the interesting things.
It's very interesting being not only, you know, an American, but I was born and raised in Los Angeles, but I spent my adult life in Texas, mostly in Houston.
And a lot of people don't know this, but Houston is the most ethnically diverse city in America.
Not New York, not L.A., Houston.
Wow.
And so to go from arguably the most ethnically diverse country in America, the most ethnically diverse city in the most ethnically diverse country to go to Zambia, where ethnic diversity is just not a thing.
It was a bit jarring.
If Jared or I went there, would we bring up the ethnic diversity by 100%?
You would.
You would do it by a lot.
If we came there regularly, would you be our Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu professor?
Absolutely.
Oh, thank you.
Okay, no.
Absolutely.
That's the real thing.
If I go visit you, I want to go to your gym.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's interesting because we would, and I know we keep getting back to this.
It's interesting because we would have people, they would come to Lusaka.
We're in Lusaka, the capital city, and our main embassy in that region is in Lusaka.
So people would come working, doing something at the embassy, or they would come doing something for some NGO or whatever, and they'd find out about us and they would show up.
So we would have people from all kinds of places to show up.
That's what I call.
But yeah, it's been good.
We went there with our seven youngest children.
We have nine children.
Our seven youngest went there with us.
And now five out of the seven have spent at least half their life there.
Wow.
Time flies.
How do you see it?
I mean, you see this obviously affecting your kids, the way they're developing and what they, you know, they're not growing up as Americans.
They're growing up as Africans.
There's actually a word for it.
They're called third culture kids.
Because, you know, our kids are, you know, they're Americans.
And I've told people, you know, if living in Lusaka for the last eight years has taught me anything, it is that I'm not an African.
But, you know, so we're Americans, but we've spent our last eight years there in, you know, in this other culture.
And so it's like we don't fully belong anyway, especially for the kids, especially for the ones who've been there for, you know, at least half their life.
They don't really fully belong in either place.
And it's an interesting phenomenon.
It, you know, can be a blessing and a curse.
But it's something that, you know, we are cognizant of.
It's something that we sort of keep before them and try to help them to think about and to work through and try to help them to look at it as something that the Lord absolutely intended and will use in their lives.
We don't know how.
But, you know, God doesn't waste anything.
Yeah.
He doesn't, does he?
You're here in California today.
It's almost like you're talking to an unreached people group.
Are you here on missionary support?
What brings you on a SoCal tour?
Do you think we're Christians?
Do we fit?
Do we fit in that?
It's really interesting when you come to Southern California.
But it's, you know, sometimes when I come to Southern California, I tell people sometimes it's really good for you to just take a look at what God saved you from.
No, but seriously, I come back to the U.S. four times a year and do about a 10-day speaking tour.
This is still sort of primary means of income for me.
It's also a way for us to keep the work in Lusaka in front of people here.
So, yeah, this is one of those tours.
And we're doing it all in SoCal this time.
Well, when you do come here, your eyes are wide open and you're seeing it with fresh perspective.
In your mind, what are the biggest issues the church in America is facing right now?
Yeah, boy, that's a hard one.
And one of the reasons that it's a hard one, and I try to communicate this even to our students there.
People don't have a sense of how big America is, right?
There's only two countries with more people.
And that's, you know, China and India.
You know, other than that, it's us, 350 million people.
And, you know, because we're so big and because of federalism, right?
We got 50 states.
And I think COVID showed us that because, you know, your experience of COVID depended on what state you were in.
And I think that's true when it comes to talking about the church as well, right?
It kind of depends on where you are.
You know, and because I do these tours in various places, my experience is never the same.
So, you know, back in January, my tour was in Florida.
And now here, I'm, you know, in Southern California and very, very different experience.
And I think that's one of the things that, you know, if you want to talk about areas where more broadly speaking, the American church struggles, I think that's one of the struggles is that there's, for whatever reason, this lack of a sense of the amazing diversity within the body because of the nature of our republic.
And so not everybody's experience is the same.
And I say that because, you know, a lot of people aren't aware of places where things are good, right?
And so, for example, a lot of California Christians, you know, they're just like, people are leaving and, you know, the state's just going crazy.
And they have a sense that that's American Christianity.
Well, no, it's not.
No.
You know?
It's not.
That's encouraging to you.
Yeah, there are places where things are going like gangbusters, you know?
And that ought to encourage us, you know?
And at the same time, in those places where things are going like gangbusters, you know, we ought to be mindful of the people who are not experiencing that and ask ourselves how we can be an encouragement to them.
You know, so I'm not sure if that was what you were.
Yeah.
Well, you go ahead.
Well, I was just going to say one of the major issues that we struggled with, I guess, in 2020, it's calmed down a bit now, but it was the racial tension that brought that came about because of the George Floyd thing.
And then that spun off into the church and then CRT started coming into the church.
And there was a lot of kind of blending of philosophical lines with Christianity and with all these other ideologies and neo-Marxism and stuff.
And I would, you know, and I told you this before we started, but I, but Fault Lines was hugely impactful for me and for my community.
When I discovered Fault Lines, it helped me a ton because I was dealing with that.
I'm in church leadership.
So dealing with that was really difficult.
Can you speak to that just a little bit?
Like how, first of all, what drove you to write Fault Lines?
Like, how did this start for you?
And then out of that, how has it been used over the last couple of years?
And have you seen a change?
Have you seen a difference in the church?
Yeah.
Well, Fault Lines was really interesting because I had been teaching on these things for a decade or more and had started on a number of occasions to work on this kind of book.
But when all of these things happened, when all the George Floyd stuff happened, and again, living in Zambia and hearing Zambians talk about the American police and you need to understand something.
In Zambia, police set up stops on the side of the road where they have these checkpoints where they look for violations and then you have to pay your fine in cash on the side of the road.
Like right there.
Yeah, right there.
We were at a store one day and we hear this guy howling, right?
And he's being beaten and carried out on the shoulders of some guys and beaten by the police.
And some Zambians saw us looking with our mouths agape, you know, and they looked at us and they go, oh, he's a thief.
Like, you know.
He deserves it.
Yeah, it's a.
I know that.
Yeah.
Yeah, he's a real sheriff.
He's a thief.
Due process by batar.
Like we were supposed to go, oh, okay.
Yeah.
Oh, you should have said so.
So for when Zambians, when our Zambian students started talking about, you know, policing in America and all this kind of stuff, I was like, okay, that's enough.
You know, that's enough.
America is one of, if not the least racist country in the world, as well as being one of, if not the most ethnically diverse country in the world.
And I mean, I always tell people I love it when the Olympics come around, because when the Olympics come around, most other countries, you can tell who their athletes are because they all look the same.
In America, we've got athletes who look like everybody else's country, right?
Because we are this incredible, ethnically diverse, you know, melting pot.
And again, there's racism all over the place because of the wicked, you know, heart of man.
But this narrative was so false.
And I just felt like I had an opportunity.
I had a window and I had a platform to be able to say something and speak into that moment.
So it was more of a stewardship and a burden than anything.
Like, I guess I'm the guy to do this.
If the propaganda got so out of control, it was in Zambia.
I guess that was a spur.
I remember when reading it, it crystallized my thoughts as well.
Similar experience to Jarrett.
I knew which way I was leaning, but I needed thought leadership to settle me.
I was struck by your combination of data with anecdotal, with then just deconstructing the facts of each of the high-profile cases.
On the anecdotal side, your testimony was beautiful.
Frances sounds like quite a woman.
And then the gentleman.
I get that a lot.
Well, can you tell us more about your testimony?
Not all of our audience knows you.
There's overlap.
Tell us about how you came to Christ.
Yeah.
So again, I grew up in LA, South Central L.A. My mother became pregnant with me when she was 17.
I was born when she was 18.
Her and my father, I was born in 1969.
Back then, what you did was you got married.
And I think they stayed married, stayed together for a year or two.
So I was raised by a single teenage mother who was a practicing Buddhist.
And I never heard the gospel until I got to university.
And when I got old enough to find a little trouble in South Central or for trouble to find me, my mother shipped me out.
And we moved, got on a Greyhound bus.
It was like a three-day trip from Los Angeles to Beaufort, South Carolina, where I spent the next year living with my uncle, who's a retired drill instructor in the Marine Corps.
You got in one little fight and your mama got scared?
You went to live with your uncle in Beaufort, South Carolina.
Thank you.
That's well done.
Yeah, Well, yeah, so it was, it was, yeah, it was that.
And again, my mother just, I'm so grateful, you know, for her and for her care for me, her, her wisdom in all of that, and her diligence in all of that.
You know, after that, I went to San Antonio and went to high school there.
And again, came to faith in college.
Yeah, so that was...
Well, I was encouraged that evangelism worked.
It was an average guy.
I mean, some of us were evangelizing faithfully to friends, family, and strangers, and we don't always see the fruit of it.
But to hear your story where a gentleman approached you, walked you through the four spiritual laws, then decided he's not ready for this, backed up and said, this is a Bible, and then really like broke it down.
I was hugely encouraged by seeing evangelism work.
Yeah, it's really cool.
Yeah, so back a little bit back to fault lines and being who you are, you know, who you came from.
And by the way, that whole thing, you know, with my story, those first two chapters, a lot of people were like, yeah, it's great.
You know, you did those first two chapters so that, you know, you could establish your bona fides and whatever.
And I'm like, you know, to a certain extent, as I was writing that, I knew that those first two chapters would be completely dismissed by the, you know, CRT, you know, neo-Marxist, you know, completely, it completely dismissed.
And I thought it would be valuable on both fronts, right?
I thought it would be valuable for people who said, oh, wait a minute, this guy actually does have some sort of context here.
And it would also be valuable to demonstrate the fact that people who talk about listening to black voices are liars.
They're liars.
What they mean is listen to black voices who agree with us.
Listen to black voices who say what we think black voices ought to say, which is incredibly racist.
It's so racist.
Listen to black voices that are, they said they would call you a white voice or like some kind of internalized racism.
Yeah, like that.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, that's interesting.
It's terrible because they just always dismiss people.
But should Christians, I mean, you obviously wrote this book.
Should we be concerned about fighting the culture war, engaging with the culture in this way?
What do you think?
Yeah, so I think we need to be faithful wherever we find ourselves.
I did this.
I wrote Fault Lines because for me, in my position, it was fitting.
It was a fitting contribution for me.
It was not me trying to be something that I wasn't.
It was not me trying to gain entree into some place that I didn't belong.
It was me being faithful with what I had.
And so I think that that's the way we need to think about it, right?
I think unfortunately for many Christians, they look at somebody like me or they look at the Babylon B or they look at John MacArthur or whoever, fill in the blank.
And they say, that's what it means to engage.
Therefore, I have to do what they're doing.
Right.
And so they either try to become something that they're not or they get frustrated and feel like they don't matter.
And, you know, and instead, I think we need to have a little, I like to call it Moses theology, right?
God could have just parted the Red Sea, right?
He could have just said, turn around, I'm getting ready to do something.
But he says, what's that in your hand?
And he uses what Moses has in his hand, right?
And I think that's what he does with us.
And I'm just always trying to ask myself, what's in my hand?
What is he giving me?
What do I have?
And I think that's when we're most effective.
We need to have an altar call right now.
Yes, that's encouraging.
No, honestly, it's really encouraging.
I think that's speaking directly to my spirit.
You don't even know.
Stewardship and faithfulness are two words you've used that all latch onto because that seems to be the way we should think of politics.
We're stewarding a vote.
Absolutely.
We're not worshiping it.
Now getting into politics and broader, you know, all things Dr. Bockham, there's three funny things that you're not scared of.
You know, you don't have handlers telling you, don't talk about this.
Leaders don't have handlers.
The three things are, number one, patriarchy, and you call it gospel patriarchy.
Number two, Christian nationalism.
You haven't shied away from the term.
And then number three, you'll still do events with Grandpa Doug.
Yeah.
Doug Wilson.
Oh, so what's your approach to?
What's your approach to things that are potentially incendiary and not being fearful about tackling them biblically?
Yeah, I think that goes back to this same principle.
I'm not trying to be somebody that I'm not.
I'm just being me and I'm just trying to be faithful and stay in my lane, right?
And, you know, when it comes to the whole, you know, patriarchy deal, I've been writing about that.
And you talk about gospel patriarchy.
I think I used that phrase the first time in Family Shepherds, you know.
And, you know, of course, it wasn't nearly as the hot button then that it is today.
And, you know, so I mean, it's not like I tried to find, you know, some term to be controversial.
I was trying to be clear, right?
And I think that the term is clear.
I use the term because it's biblical and because it's clear.
Now, now, if I'm honest, right, just between us and just between us.
We won't tell.
It's a bit of my personality here.
When I find out that people are up in arms because of something like that, I'm even more incentivized.
I'm even more incentivized.
So even if I was thinking about using another terminology, I'm definitely not going to do it now.
Yeah.
Now, because you're not going to bully me into doing that.
And then in terms of- You'd fit in at the B.
Yeah.
We're not easily bullied.
Absolutely.
And then, yeah.
And then in terms of, you know, Christian nationalism, that was another thing, right?
Like, I never used the term, you know, Christian nationalism.
I've never identified myself as Christian nationalism.
But the point that I've made is that when the pushback came, right?
And, you know, I like to think that Fault Lines was part of the pushback.
You know, when the pushback came and when people who had been, you know, sort of flirting with some of this CRT, you know, neo-Marxist kind of ideology, when they got that pushback, what they didn't do was they didn't say, okay, you got me.
We were wrong.
I'm sorry.
I mean, as far as I don't, I don't know anybody, you know, that's done that.
There wasn't an apology tour.
There wasn't an apology tour, right?
There was not a, we led you astray.
There was not, there was, there was not, there was not any of that.
But what happened with some of them is they just went underground and I guess just hoped that, you know, the interwebs that don't forget anything would forget that.
And then others began to say, look over there, Christian nationalism, right?
And I think most of us, most of the people that I've talked to, when people started talking about that a couple of years ago, our first response was, okay, what is that?
I had that thought.
Yeah, tell me, I mean, what do you mean?
I mean, you know, I could be.
I mean, what are you talking about?
No, the biggest problem is Christian nationalism.
It's not the CRT.
That's a lot of people.
And then people were like, well, yeah, you guys are all on this CRT stuff, but you're not saying anything about Christian nationalism.
And so my response was, you know, point me in the direction, you know?
And it was sort of nebulous and, you know, and the definition was malleable.
I was pointing to Jack Hibbs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The definition was malleable.
And then a lot of the things that they were pointing at, boy, they seem pretty like biblical.
And yeah, so it was really interesting.
So again, I wasn't going to shy away from that because I saw it as a tactic, right?
I saw this as the next play.
You know, it was, we feel like we're about to be checkmated, you know, and we're going to do something drastic, you know?
So yeah, I was not going to run away from that.
But, you know, and then on the last one, you know, with Doug, I have many friends with whom I disagree on things.
And one of the things I love about honest biblical Christianity, one of the things I love about manly pastors, elders, is that we're okay disagreeing with one another.
You don't have to line up with me on everything, right?
If we line up on, you know, essential things and important things.
And the other thing that I'm not going to do, because again, this is another ploy, right?
The minute I say, now listen, we've all got standards, okay?
Let me just put that out there, right?
We've all got standards.
There's places that I'm, that I'm, that I'm, that I'm not going unless it's clear that, you know, I'm going as a hostile witness, you know?
But, but, but having said that, I'm not going to fall into the trap of being a person who says, I'm only going to do events with people who are, you know, completely and utterly with me and people who I endorse, you know, completely everything.
Because the minute that I do that, right?
Now all of a sudden it's you were there, they did that, right?
Right.
Because you say, you know, that that's your standard.
That must mean that you, no, that, that's, that's not the case, right?
Now, specifically, what would be a standard that you'd be like, well, I can't really, like, would it be a Jen Hatmaker or like a Richard Rohr or something like that?
You'd be like, nah, those guys aren't even Christians.
It would depend on, it would depend on what it was.
If it was a situation where I could get in there and, you know, be unfettered.
Tell you, I'll give you an example.
Going on the blaze, okay?
The Glenn Beck and going on with Glenn Beck.
I saw that.
You know, I've been with Glenn Beck a number of times.
There are no restraints put on me.
I can communicate the gospel.
I can be, you know, free and bold and, you know, and he and I have a relationship behind the scenes and off the camera.
And, you know, I'm grateful to the Lord for all of that, right?
And because of who I am and because of this commitment that I have, you know, you can't say, oh, he's going on there.
So therefore he must, dot, dot, dot.
No, that's absolutely not the case.
But when there is a platform and I'm not going to be muzzled, right?
I've gone on CNN.
That didn't go well for them.
So I haven't been invited.
I haven't been invited back.
But, you know, I do.
I do those kinds of things.
And so, you know, that's the one side of it.
The other side of it, let me get back to where I was.
The other side of it is I value friendship.
You know, and Doug Wilson is a friend.
He's a friend in the brother.
And we, you know, disagree on things and, you know, all of this kind of stuff.
But real friendship can handle that.
You know?
So, yeah, I.
I love that, actually, because we're in relationship with a lot of people of, you know, different mindsets.
You mentioned Glenn Beck and, you know, the Harmon brothers, they're Mormons too, and we're friends with them.
And we're friends with Doug Wilson.
We're friends with, you know, a lot of other folks too.
Even some charismatics.
And you mentioned.
Yeah.
That was great.
You mentioned Glenn Beck at the Blaze.
It just, it sparked in my mind.
I remember he made a clip right after they acted Tucker and he said that his suspicion was they were spooked by how he was willing to say, talk about spiritual things and say, this is demonic and this is anti-God.
And I bet he appreciated that because he said that from the very top brass, he would get notes and missives saying you're talking about God way too much on your show.
So he doesn't muzzle you.
That's an interesting guy because, I mean, he did Nefarious, that movie we just did.
The Steve Deese movie.
The Steve Dace.
Yeah.
Did you see that movie?
No, we were just talking about it.
You guys got to see it.
Well, there's one part in it where there's a really brilliant actor that tells the main character where the phone is.
Okay.
You need to make sure you don't blink.
Okay.
You'll see.
All right.
You'll see, you may recognize him.
But Glenn Beck is really cool because he went, he got behind all these Christians to do this thing.
Yeah.
You know, and that was this combination of people.
I mean, Chuck and Carrie, the two main guys, they're Catholics.
And, you know, obviously Glenn's a Mormon.
And then you have, you know, Steve Dace, who's an evangelical.
And so really, really a good combination of people.
The same thing with the chosen and that kind of stuff too.
Anyway, I think I agree with you.
And I think that's something that we need to remind ourselves of.
But see, that's it.
It's important.
See, that's another deal.
You asked me about my line.
You said the chosen.
That's a line you draw.
That's a line I draw.
Yeah.
Have you seen the chosen?
Have you watched it?
Yeah, I'm watching.
Two CV, man.
Segment.
Two CV.
Oh, okay.
No, four CV, no two CV.
Gotcha.
So, you know, so yeah, I do.
Again, you asked about my lines.
That's one of my lines.
That series.
Jesus as idolatry or portraying Jesus as idolatry.
And then, you know, yeah.
Speaking of folks not being muzzled, when Pastor John went on with Ben Shapiro for the Sunday special, Pastor John MacArthur, I think he had a similar philosophy where he said, we're not aligned, but Ben Shapiro is not going to muzzle me.
I'm going to preach the gospel.
And he did.
It was beautiful.
He preached from Isaiah 53.
Right.
Pretty fitting.
Right.
Dr. Bockham, we're both huge fans of you, as you can tell.
One of the things that I really like is your tone control.
And I don't just mean you have a deep voice.
I mean when you're preaching.
But you do have a deep voice.
But you do.
Yeah, but we don't just love you for a, we don't just love you for BJJ reasons and bench press reasons and deep voice.
We appreciate that your preaching is it's more than just rhetoric.
I just wanted to ask you a big picture question.
What's the difference between preaching and teaching?
Boy, I think from a biblical perspective, there's not a lot of difference.
I think from a modern understanding that people would say that there is a difference.
But I think that that difference has to do with the fact that we've created a lot of venues, a lot of non-pulpit-oriented venues.
So for example, Sunday school, right?
You know, Jesus didn't go to Sunday school.
So I think because of that, we now have these venues where there's a difference between the authority of the pulpit, right?
And the expositional proclamation of the word with the authority of the pulpit and teaching opportunities that are not that.
So can you preach on a podcast, for example?
Like right now?
Yeah.
Okay.
Will you preach for us right now?
Do a sermon.
Once you three go.
Well, it seems like your book.
Make it funny.
Your book, Expositional Apologetics, that seems to be the entire basis of it, is that you're always preaching if you're appealing to texts and then the Spirit is working through you.
And always doing apologetics.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting because I think in Fault Lines, it's pretty clear.
And I run into it.
There's kind of a movement in culture where people sort of identify as a particular type of Christian first, or they identify with something other than Christ, and then they identify as a Christian after that.
Do you have anything to say about that?
I know that people, like, hey, I'm a conservative Christian.
I'm a progressive Christian.
I'm a black Christian.
I'm a white Christian.
I'm a gay Christian.
Like, people have all these things that they say.
Can you just speak to that?
What is it to be a Christian?
Can you just define what Christianity is?
What is it to follow Christ for Christian?
Quite simply, I would say that being a Christian means being a Christ follower, means being someone who is redeemed, means someone who is trusting Christ and Christ alone for the pardon of their sins and living in light of that trust.
And so I, I mean, yeah.
As far as the adjectives that we use, as far as those modifiers and clarifiers, I think it depends, right?
Sometimes those can be very helpful, you know.
At other times, as you say, it's wearing another label more proudly than we wear the label Christian.
And it's interesting because every once in a while, I don't spend a lot of time on social media.
And, you know, there are certain people who shall remain nameless and get on to me for not doing a better job of.
Anyway, but I just don't have to spend a lot of time.
Are they in the room?
Is it Jay?
They could be.
They could be.
Jay is Dr. Buckham's main staffer.
And part of the reason I don't is because my heart issues and my blood pressure and all that kind of stuff.
It messes with your blood pressure.
But I chuckle, you know, because sometimes people will find out, for example, that I'm a Calvinist.
And I'll be like, wait, what?
You know, him too?
To which I have two responses.
Yeah.
To which I have two responses.
Number one, where you been?
Right?
Where you been?
But number two, it's that same kind of thought, right?
I don't, you know, I don't make a habit of going around saying, I'm this kind of, you know, which goes back to what we talked about earlier, the relationships that we can have, the broader, you know, relationships that we can have with people and advantages, you know, opportunities that we can take advantage of.
I mean, I don't hide any of that, right?
And I think when people find that out, they often have that kind of, you know, M. Night Shyamalan reveal moment.
Look back and go, wait.
It was dead.
Oh, spoilers, man.
Oh, yeah.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Well, so the whole time.
Anyway, no, that's well.
Okay, that is really interesting.
I forgot what my follow-up question was on that.
Well, we'll stay on the topic because I think this is maybe.
Oh, go ahead.
You know, maybe you're going to ask.
No, you go ahead.
You go ahead.
Okay.
Why should I be a Calvinist?
You know what you're going to ask?
No, but that's funny.
Okay, yeah.
Explain it.
No, no, but that's funny.
No, but that's funny.
Go with that one.
No, that's good.
That's funnier.
Explain John Calvin.
Yeah, exactly.
What a whoop.
What a who.
Why should Jared be a Calvinist?
Go ahead and make the case if you don't mind.
I don't think he can make it.
I don't think.
I'm not in.
Yeah, I don't.
Yeah.
Well, I'll ask my question then.
Maybe we'll come back to Calvinism.
I'm not called to be a Calvinist.
I just am not predestined for it.
Well, I was going to ask.
I get it.
Speaking of blood pressure, speaking of the perennial temptation to let other things become your main identity, we mentioned Tucker a couple moments ago.
I think Christians who are serious about the truth are going to be attracted to certain parts of Tucker, but then he'll get them whipped up and riled up and their blood pressure will go through the roof.
And then before they know it, you know, myself included, will end up putting that above Christ.
We'll end up fighting and culture warring.
So here's my question.
There's two approaches.
There's the fighting and the culture warring.
But then there's also those who, Jared mentioned this when we were doing our Dr. Bockham prep call on Friday.
He said there seem to be Christians who fetishize persecution and who don't want to steward their vote responsibly.
Of those two branches, what's the healthy middle ground of culture warring and then, hey, we just need to get persecuted because it'll make us feel holier.
Is there a middle ground there?
Yeah, I think the middle ground there to go back to what we were talking about.
And here's my Calvinism coming up again.
He's bringing it all in.
Here's my Calvinist.
He's working BJJ as well.
It is about being faithful where we are, right?
And if I'm being faithful where I am and I am living out my Christian walk and I'm being responsible in all three spheres, right?
He's given us the family.
He's given us the church.
He's given us the civil government.
If I'm being faithful in those three spheres and I am effectively living out my Christian convictions in those three spheres, then number one, it is going to be inevitable that I'm going to do some culture warring, right?
There we go.
Because if they hated Christ, they will hate us, right?
So again, faithfulness in those three spheres will lead me to the battle.
And number two, when I'm led to the battle, I will get my persecution on, right?
That's that, you know, 2 Timothy 3.12, all those who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus shall be persecuted, right?
So I don't think we go looking for one of those things or the other.
I think as we live out our Christian lives, seeking, you know, as much as it depends on us to be at peace with all men, right?
Seeking to live peaceful and quiet lives, but being faithful to our Lord and working to advance the kingdom, both of those things will be inevitable.
Yeah, it does seem like we'll live out our Christian faith that holds up a mirror to the culture, shows them where the sins are.
If you get into the Babylon B for any amount of time, it's a prophetic voice in the sense that it calls, it shows the culture what's going on in the culture.
And so people get very angry about it.
So persecution, I don't know, that's a word, marginalization or we do stir up the word.
We're reviled.
That's a word.
People do hate us, you know, when we stand up and say things.
And there's times where we stand up and say things.
Like, you know, you wrote fault lines because it was the time to write it.
You knew you were supposed to write it.
And I feel like we have that same calling.
It's like, we know it's our time to say, nah, that's too far.
Not with the kids, you know, like, let's stop that.
Yeah.
So that is interesting.
And to do it and to do it the way you do it.
Yeah.
You know, to use what's in your hand.
That's it.
That was encouraging, Jared.
The guys that sit on the sidelines and laugh at everybody else.
That's in my hand.
No, but that was a good.
We should clip your speech and like edit your Murica shirt on.
Murica.
Murica.
This is a huge, I mean, I think there's a temptation among people who aren't saved but are conservatives to feel black pilled.
To me, this is a white pill.
Should Christians feel fear going into this coming season?
What emotion should Christians predominantly feel?
Yeah, so again, we serve the king of glory.
Of whom should we be afraid, right?
Like, no, we should not fear.
We walk in faith, not fear.
So whatever it is that we're doing, right, because we serve the one true and living God.
And because, as I've often said, you know, God's not running for God.
That's good.
We're not afraid.
You're not afraid.
We trust.
We trust.
And like at the end of the Joseph narrative, man is working for evil, but out of evil, God can bring forth good.
I think even in persecution, God can bring forth more good than we could persevere.
Even death.
Even in death.
Even in death.
And the last time I checked, the death rate was one per person.
That's right, right?
So we're all headed that way.
Yeah.
Wow.
We're all going there.
Wow.
Well, that's incredible.
I think that's encouraging for us as the bee as well.
I think going into our.
What that you're going to die?
One per person.
Yes.
Go ye therefore.
Go ye therefore and tell funny jokes.
Yeah.
No, that is interesting.
It's encouraging because I think we're going into, you know, we're wading into culture war.
We get a lot of, you know, kickback.
as you and when you're speaking and speaking truth and and sometimes it's brought to us Yeah.
Right?
And, you know, we're talking about being here in Southern California.
I mean, Gavin Newsom is at war with the church in many ways, right?
He's at war with conservatives.
He's at war with, you know, that man is, he's on the rampage, right?
He is at war.
So, you know, we don't have to go looking for, you know, for trouble.
And sometimes we find ourselves in situations and settings and places and times where it's unavoidable.
You lent your voice and face and presence to the Essential Church documentary from Grace Community Church about Pastor John MacArthur's lawsuit against Newsom.
And the encouragement there was that he won.
What about when Christians don't?
What about when the state does temporarily prevail, the godless state?
Yeah.
Again, when we believe in firmly the sovereignty of God and when we believe that everything happens because of God's decree and that God executes his decrees and his works of creation and providence,
then, you know, we know that he is working all things according to his plan, according to his will.
And so we trust, you know?
I heard the word sovereignty and providence.
Yes.
We're getting there.
We're planting seeds.
Those are the only two words I heard actually.
Listening to the rest of the day.
Sam Planted.
Dr. Bacham water.
No, but let's, this is super encouraging.
I want to know, there's two questions I have for you.
First, will you be our mentors and you be my professor for BJJ?
Those are the two.
And then the second question is, what's next for Bodhi Bakam?
What's going on with you?
Boy.
Yeah, a couple of things.
One, we're finishing up this tour here.
And we've got a few more stops before we end next weekend in Bakersfield.
And then there is a revised and updated publication of my first book, The Everloving Truth, which is coming out in September.
The subtitle of that is Can Faith Thrive in a Post-Christian Culture?
And it was amazing to sort of walk back through that.
It came out in 2004.
So we're right at almost 20 years now.
And it was really amazing to look back at that and see how relevant that still is.
And then next year, Lord willing, for Pride Month, I have another book coming out.
Oh, cool.
And the title of that is, It's Not Like Being Black.
Oh, that is a good title.
Oh, I love celebrating Pride Month like that.
Oh, and before we do go behind the paywall, Wrath and Grace is the app.
Anything else you should promote?
Yeah.
You know, if you want to know about Wrath and Grace, you can go to wrathandgrace.com and you can get the app there.gov.
No, dot com.
They're wonderful, wonderful partners.
We partner with Wrath and Grace for the tours that we do quarterly.
Very cool.
You want to know about ACU?
ACU-Zambia.com.
And that's a way that you can sort of connect with us.
What does ACU stand for?
African Christian University.
And the book is Fault Lines.
If you guys haven't read this book yet, I think it's kind of a seminal work on the church and critical race theory.
It's a really good opportunity to engage the conversation from a person that really knows what he's talking about.
So read it.
It was pretty impactful for me, and I think for some as well.
We also just came out with a 10-part video series to support it.
We got the 10-part video series for Fault Lines.
Where can you find that?
You can find that at Salem Now.
Salem Now.
Okay.
All these Salem.
Salem isn't afraid to take the high heat when it comes to publishing spicy books.
No, they're not.
They're not.
Spicy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No 50 Shades of Gray, but you know, that kind of spicy.
Ah, not that kind.
Okay, so anyway, let's go to the subscriber portion.
Coming up next for Babylon B subscribers.
Christianity in this culture is seen as the hegemonic power that facilitates the oppression.
But those same people who said enough still think same-sex marriage is fine.