Embarrassing Parts Of The Bible Show The Bible Is True With Frank Turek
Dr. Frank Turek is back at The Babylon Bee to talk about how the embarrassing parts of the Bible are actually evidence that the Bible is really the Word of God. Frank also talks about common questions and objections that college students typically have and how he handles them as a Christian apologist. In the full-length ad-free subscriber podcast, Frank talks about Calvinism and whether it makes God the author of evil and makes all of us humans just moist robots. Check out Frank Turek's work at: http://crossexamined.org CrossExamined on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CrossExamined To catch the full podcast and support the Babylon Bee, use promocode 'PODCAST' at: http://babylonbee.com/plans
In this week's podcast, Jared and Travis sit down with Christian Apologist and the founder and president of CroseExamine.org, Frank Turek, to talk about how the Bible is embarrassing for its authors and how that's an evidence for the truth of Christianity.
They also talk about common objections to Christianity and the totally uncontroversial topic of Calvinism and free will.
Hey guys, welcome to the interview show.
Today with us, we have one of our favorite guests.
You've been on probably more than almost anyone else.
Frankie Turek.
Wow.
This is what, four, five times?
Probably times.
Three, four, four, four, five?
This is probably the fourth.
Okay.
Third or fourth.
Yeah.
It's wonderful to have you.
It's great being here, man.
You know, Frank is an apologist and a lot, among other things, you're an author and talented fellow.
Well, got a nice head of hair.
I've got a new, I've got a new book, 10 Steps Humility and How I Made It in Seven.
Which is really humble of me because I actually made it in six.
You made it in six.
Yeah.
So that's good.
I was very humble with that title.
Cool.
That's good.
Who are you?
And also, I'm Jarrett.
My name is Jarrett LeMaster.
This is Travis.
Hi.
Travis Woodside.
Jarrett, a big star in the new movie.
Nefarious.
Nefarious, if you guys check it out.
I think it's still in the theaters.
It may not be when this interview goes out.
That's all right.
It's coming out on DVD, or do they still make DVDs?
I know.
I don't.
It's coming out.
It'll be on something.
Netflix, Amazon.
You got to see it.
It'll be streaming.
Make sure you check it out.
What is it?
Refined stuff.
It's rated R.
It shouldn't be.
No children.
Yeah, I agree.
It's funny because that's what happened with Unplanned as well.
So I don't know if you guys watched Unplanned.
I was in Unplanned with Chuck and Carrie, the guys that directed Nefarious.
And they got an R rating from the MPAA.
Gee, I wonder why.
Right.
Well, because it was inside of a Planned Parenthood.
They didn't want young people to go see it.
They gave it an R rating.
The same kind of things going on with this.
Gave it an R rating for no reason.
That sounds pretty nefarious.
Wow.
That was good, Travis.
Thank you.
So good.
That's why I'm here.
There's a nefarious plot.
What are we here to talk to you about today?
What are we here to talk about?
Actually, the Resurrection Hoax was one of my favorite videos you guys have ever done.
Oh, thank you.
And I hear that people are actually playing it in their churches.
Pastors are seeing that.
I have heard that one.
They're going, wow, this is just, it hits home because comedy like that really resonates with people.
In fact, there was a playwright.
I can't think of his name.
He said this.
Get them laughing and when their mouths are open, pour truth in them.
Gross.
That sounds disgusting.
It is, but it's good.
I mean, where do you get those buckets of truth?
Was it Neil Simon?
Was it Neil Simon?
Neil Simon who said that?
I don't know.
People don't know Neil Simon.
I don't even know him anymore.
They don't know Neil Simon?
As in Neil Simon's family?
I met Neil.
Yeah.
I met him one time.
Is he alive anymore?
I don't know if he died or not.
He was like 90 when I met him.
Oh.
So no.
Probably dead.
Probably.
Safe to say.
Safe to say he's dead.
From two generations ago.
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So I really love Travis in the Resurrection Hoax.
He's, I think, my favorite character.
Actually, Travis and Dan both, because Dan does this crazy thing with his arms.
He does this with him.
Dan killed it.
And then Travis has my favorite line.
And I'm going to impersonate you.
Can I impersonate you?
You may.
Okay.
So he goes, you know, I, man.
And that's like, that's my favorite line in the whole thing.
I think that was almost my only written line.
I know the rest of them, you're like, I was just first, you got to get the body.
Yeah.
Duh.
Duh, obviously.
Obviously.
Yeah.
We were having a lot of fun on that shoe.
That was a lot of fun.
It was a lot of fun.
I would definitely wear robes again.
All right.
Now, tell our audience how that came about.
Who had the initial idea and how did it get fleshed out?
Yeah.
So the initial idea, I think, came from Peyton McNabb.
I think that was the original idea.
Am I wrong?
I'm not going to disagree with you.
Okay, don't disagree with me.
I don't know the answer.
Don't you dare.
And then Kyle took it and kind of rewrote it.
And that's kind of how it came about.
So I love the idea.
And it's a great apologetic, you know?
Oh, it's totally.
It's perfect.
Good for you.
And that's one thing we did in the book, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, is we put a lot of embarrassing details that the Bible talks about that if you're reading through it, you go, they would never make this up and they would never get themselves killed for a lie that they knew was a lie.
I mean, you know, some people will die for a lie they think is the truth, but who's going to die for a lie they know is a lie?
And when it's presented in that fun skit way that you guys did, it just resonates.
People go, yeah, why would they make this up?
Why would they do this?
It was even the Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia a number of years ago.
In one of his opinions, I think it was an opinion or it was a speech.
I can't remember.
He said, we all know that the groveling evangelists invented the resurrection story in a sinister attempt to get themselves all martyred.
That's right.
He's going, why would they super poor guys got together?
Yeah, yeah.
It's one of those, really one of those theories where the moment you put any critical thought into it, it falls apart because it doesn't make any sense.
Because you could argue that they made it up because they wanted to become popular or whatever.
But then the moment they're threatened with death, they would recant.
Right.
And not just like, not just death either.
It's not like they're going to get a bullet to the brain or something.
We're talking about people being axed, you know, getting decapitated, people being crucified upside down.
Flogged.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Flogged.
Can you imagine?
I mean, the whipping, like the 49 lashes, like a bunch of times and all the torture and stuff.
Like I wouldn't, if I knew it was a lie.
Oh.
And somebody were like, okay, I'm going to flay you alive.
I would say, look, you know, guys, honestly, I was kidding.
I was kidding.
Yeah.
We got together in the upper room.
Also, they didn't invent guns yet.
There were no guns.
So that's why we were still.
That's true.
There's no bullets.
There's no bullets yet.
I didn't think of that.
That's true.
Pro tip.
No guns in ancient Europe.
But didn't the Chinese have gunpowder at this point?
I don't know about at this point, but they did very early on.
Travis, tell me when the Chinese had gunpowder.
The Chinese invented gunpowder in 32 BC.
And you could take that to the bank.
You could take that.
Your best source for fake news right here.
They used it to kill dinosaurs.
True story.
Before the flood.
It's all in Marco Polo.
It's Atlantis.
Anyways.
Anyway, so more about Frank Turk.
So you've got other stories in the scripture that kind of are the similar.
It's kind of a similar kind of apologetic.
Right.
Where the scripture includes a bunch of really embarrassing stuff for these heroes.
Yeah.
What are good examples of that?
Well, let's say Peter.
First of all, the Lord calls him Satan.
Right?
If Mark, who recorded this, one of the writers that recorded it, do you think he went to Peter one day and said, hey, Pete, I'm going to make this a real interesting story.
I'm going to have the Lord call you Satan.
What do you think Peter would have said?
Look, have him call you Satan.
Look, I'm the leader here.
This doesn't look good.
And then Peter says, Lord, I'll never deny you.
He denies him three times.
And then at the crucifixion, all the disciples, maybe with the exception of one, they all run away.
This is like a Monty Python movie.
Run away.
They all run away.
Who are the brave ones?
And there's that one guy running around naked.
John Mark?
Was he John Mars?
Yeah.
He's running around naked.
Yeah, he left without his cloak or without his.
He was a little concerned.
How did he get there?
How did he get to be naked, Travis?
Well, I think they grabbed him and tore the robes off of him.
That's my guess.
He was that desperate to get away.
Get away.
He's like, take it.
Take my pants.
You know, I want to see the Raunchy teen comedy getting back to home with founding clothes.
It's a coming-of-age story.
This is awful.
He was probably 40, but yeah.
Yeah, that's probably true.
No, John Mark was younger, right?
Didn't he go on?
I don't know.
Yeah, anyway.
I'm not actually.
I mean, sorry, you would know Frank.
Frank would know me.
I wouldn't know how old he was, but I would know.
It's like he was younger.
It's super embarrassing.
Yeah.
And then the women are the brave ones.
Right, right.
Like, who would have invented that?
In that culture, a woman's testimony is not considered on par with that of a man.
And of course, the men who are writing this down aren't going to say, I was hiding for fear of the Jews while the women went down to discover the empty tomb.
You know, I wouldn't say that.
Writers of Captain Marvel would say that.
They probably.
No, they wouldn't.
You think so?
Yeah.
Isn't it kind of like a feminist hero?
Oh, well, maybe.
Yeah, anyway.
Yeah, that's true.
Captain Marvel went down and...
Yeah, it was actually Captain Marvel.
Anyway.
But they wouldn't invent it that way.
I mean, if I was inventing it, I would say, I marched right down to the tomb and overpowered the elite Roman guard, right?
Sure.
John said, get out.
Peter roundhouse kicked him.
Thomas said, we'll be back.
No doubt, right?
That'd be amazing.
He went and comforted the trembling women.
That's right.
They were all in the corner crying.
Yeah.
We were there.
We were there.
We never doubted.
We never wavered.
Never went.
They would never say this.
And yet it's all throughout the story.
Yeah.
Yeah.
People being unfaithful.
Our heroes.
I think that's a good point about Peter because he was kind of the sort of figurehead of the apostles.
But I mean, obviously Thomas, Downing Thomas, just Judas betraying them in the first place.
That's embarrassing.
What a loser.
What an embarrassment.
And then later, Paul actually dope slaps Peter in the book of Galatians.
That's right.
Remember that?
Yeah.
You know, if they're, why are two apostles actually arguing in the Bible if they're inventing all this?
They argue about it publicly, too, right?
He said that I rebuked him to his face.
Yeah.
Isn't that what he says?
Yeah, he does.
It's like I rebuked Peter to his face because he was wrong.
Is that like a Gen Z term, dope slap?
Dope slap.
I've never heard that before.
You haven't heard dope slap yet?
No.
We need to incorporate it in the Babylon B vocabulary book.
There's another kind of slap I've heard of that we can't say on this podcast.
Oh, we can't?
No.
No?
No?
I just want to know now.
The B slap?
Oh.
I can't really.
Oh, yeah, you can't do that.
I can't say that one.
Can't say the beast lap.
Beast lap.
All right.
Because it can mean other things.
Well, it does mean something else.
Anyway, so yeah, you're right.
What about Old Testament stuff?
Is there good stuff?
Oh, there's a ton of Old Testament stuff.
Well, think about, say, Judah, from where we get the term Jew from.
He was not a good guy.
He is in the bloodline of the Messiah, yet he's the guy that sells Joseph into slavery.
And then he sleeps with Tamar, who's a prostitute or plays a prostitute.
And then Rahab is a prostitute.
You got two prostitutes in the bloodline of the Messiah.
You really think that Matthew, who wrote the genealogy down, said, I really think I need to spice up the Messiah's bloodline a little bit.
Let me put a couple of prostitutes in here.
No, no, they're not doing this.
Can you imagine some Pharaoh allowing his historian to say, Pharaoh, your bloodline is full of prostitutes?
That's right.
Ready to be off with your head.
We're going to bury you in this.
Although it was probably true.
It was probably true.
Yeah.
And then David.
David's supposed to be a man after God's own heart.
Yeah, but he's a liar, adulterer, and a murderer.
Gee, I guess there's hope for the rest of us.
He's an adulterer at heart, but actually an adulterer.
I was thinking about Ray Comfort for a second.
Adulterer's heart.
He was an adulterer at heart.
A liar.
And that's by your own admission, David.
No, I'm not judging you.
Yes.
Ray Comfort as Nathan.
That's right.
No, I'm not judging you.
What would you call a person that lies?
Oh, a liar.
That's right, David.
No, I was like, what about a person who steals something?
It's a thief.
That's right.
No, you're a lying thief.
That's right.
I know all of his stuff.
I know all of his tricks.
It works.
It does work.
Bringing the law on people.
I love Ray Comfort.
Yeah.
He is out there and he's fearless.
Yeah.
He's out there and he's loving his beach.
Huntington Beach normally is where he goes, I think.
You probably see him out there one day if you ever go down there.
So crazy.
Yeah, he is.
He's great.
But then think about other Old Testament.
Bathsheba is in the bloodline of the Messiah.
And when Matthew gets to her name, he won't even mention it.
In the genealogy, he says, Uriah's wife.
And you go, ooh.
It's a slam.
Notice it's a slam.
He's telling the truth, but Uriah, of course, is the husband of Bathsheba, whom David had killed so he could have Bathsheba.
So it's not an invented storyline.
And then, I mean, look at the Old Testament.
How often the Jews are seen as just they're feckle.
They sin.
They keep doing the same boneheaded things over and over again.
This is their national history.
And you think they're making this up?
That's why some Old Testament, the Jews will, you know, I mean, people who are Jewish and take the scripture seriously will say, in fact, Dennis Prager says this.
He says, the reason I believe the Old Testament's true is because the Jews would never invent this kind of history about themselves.
I mean, they get the gold medal in sin, don't they?
Right?
And time after time, they're judged, and they keep coming back for more for more judgment.
It's not an invented storyline.
You look at the Egyptians, you look at the Pharaohs in Egypt, all they talk about is how they defeated their enemies.
There's nothing ever embarrassing that goes on.
Yeah, isn't it true that it's actually archaeologically documented that they would erase history because it was embarrassing?
Yeah.
Yeah, in fact, I can't remember which Pharaoh had the treaty with the Hittites, but the Pharaoh that had the treaty with the Hittites, even though it was like probably the first peace treaty in recorded history, he claimed he beat the Hittites.
Even though it was a peace treaty.
That's funny.
You know, they are.
I beat them with words.
That's right.
That's funny.
So you don't have that.
But you don't even see it.
You don't even see this kind of thing in like Islam.
So in the Quran.
You don't see the embarrassing stories of Muhammad in the Quran, do you?
Well, you see, the interesting thing about the Quran, which most people don't know, is that the Quran portrays Jesus as sinless, virgin-born, and the one that's going to come back and judge in the end.
But Muhammad is not sinless.
Muhammad is not virgin-born.
He's not the ultimate judge.
He's just the messenger.
But it is interesting when you look at Islam.
Things seem to work out really conveniently for Muhammad that the other people don't get the same kind of treatment.
For example, Muhammad can have 15 wives, whereas any other Muslim man can only have four, right?
I mean, there were certain privileges of being Muhammad.
Of course, our leader, Jesus, is the one that goes to the cross for us.
He is sinless and he takes our punishment upon himself.
He's the one that's murdered.
And of course, the Quran says Jesus never died because God would never punish a prophet like that.
Even though that happened a lot.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, obviously it wasn't everyone on a cross, but there were several prophets that were sawed in half.
Yeah.
They got murdered by the Pharisees.
Yeah.
By the people of the people.
Well, murdered by their own king.
Or look at Hebrews, is it Hebrews 11 that has the hall of faith?
Yeah.
That talks about prophets being sawed in half.
And of course, Jeremiah, he didn't have a good time either, right?
Thrown into a cistern.
He really was a bullfrog.
Oh, no.
Terrible life.
Terrible life as a boy.
He was a bullfrog.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Now, what about other religions and stuff?
Don't they?
They kind of whitewash the history in most religions, right?
Not just Islam, but well, if they're a historical religion, who else is really an historical religion?
I mean, it's Christianity.
Well, Mormonism.
Yeah, Mormonism tries to say that Joseph Smith was a prophet and tries to say Joseph Smith is bringing a new revelation in and that the New Testament or the Bible can only be can only be trusted if it's translated properly, whatever that means.
But Joseph Smith didn't do anything miraculous.
You know, the whole golden plates thing, I wonder why people think that's miraculous.
I mean, you can make golden plates in your garage if you have enough, if you have the right material, right?
I don't have enough gold.
Also, no one saw the golden plates, right?
Yeah, that's right.
They kind of got the golden plates.
He's like, I have golden plates.
Well, they make me translate.
They're in this hat.
They're in a hat.
And they're in the hat.
And don't look in the hat.
And you can only see them if you have this rock, which I have.
Which I have.
You can't have it.
And then didn't somebody's wife, Brigham Young's wife threw away the first copy.
Oh, yeah.
It's like make him translate it again because then we'll see if it's true.
And he's like, okay, they're going to be completely different.
He was really mad.
Yeah.
That's right.
It's not the same as the miracles of the New Testament where people who did not expect a man to rise from the dead and did not think a man could claim to be God, that was blasphemy.
Those two things they came to believe were true.
How did they come to believe those things were true if they never happened?
And why would they then go die as the resurrection hoax video?
If you guys haven't seen the resurrection hoax video, you got to go to the Babylon B YouTube channel and see that because it's really well done.
Travis is excellent.
Jared is excellent.
Yeah, Jared's in there too.
Kyle's in there.
Just crazy.
There's a lot of folks in there.
Frank Turk's really good in it.
Yeah.
He's really good at it.
Yeah, actually, we did the chosen accent.
At least I tried to do the chosen accent.
You did.
You did?
And Adam tried an accent.
Yeah, he's pretty good.
Yeah, I don't think so.
I sounded Russian.
Like, I just ended up sounding Russian.
You were playing Peter, right?
Yeah.
Go ahead with the Russian Peter.
How is it that an evidence for the truth of Christianity?
That's like, this is the craziest place.
So what are the big embarrassment stories in the Bible?
Yes.
Yeah, I'm very tone deaf with accents.
So I'm just like, yeah, that's Middle East.
Yeah, that's not Middle East.
Actually, that was probably more Middle East than I did in the show, but I don't know.
Yeah, yeah.
I was trying to, because they all have, that is actually a thing.
We talked to Dallas Jenkins about the accent they use in the chosen.
Oh, yeah.
And he said, yeah, it's kind of a generic Middle Eastern accent.
And I was like, well, it kind of sounds Russian.
It sounds Russian.
That's right.
Well, it's better than doing like the, because they usually do just British for everything.
Yeah, everything is foreign.
I don't hate that.
I don't hate the British Jesus thing.
I think it's a good thing.
I don't know.
Especially the Romans.
The Romans are good, like as British people.
Like it seems, you know, they're all colonial.
You know, imperialistic.
Because only the British can be smart.
Yeah, that's true, too.
You heard it here first.
Yeah.
Only the British can be smart, right?
Well, you know, also in the New Testament, when you think about it, is that Jesus actually has embarrassing things that happen to him, according to the writings.
Now, you would never think this would, they would do this, but in Mark chapter 3, his own family thinks he's out of his mind.
They think he's nuts.
They want to come and take him home.
It says they want to seize him and take him home.
Now, the scholars say, you know, well, the New Testament writers may have invented Jesus to be God.
Really?
Then why is Mark chapter 3 in there?
Which is seen almost universally recognized to be the earliest gospel.
His family thinks he's out of his mind.
He's called a drunkard.
He's called demon-possessed.
He has his feet wiped with the hair of a prostitute, which easily could have been seen as a sexual advance.
He's called a madman.
His own brothers don't believe in him.
Now, that's embarrassing to have your own brothers, your own family think you're nuts.
They're not putting forth Jesus in a sunny way all the time because that's not the way it happened.
They're just telling the truth.
It's not an invented story.
I've always thought if I were one of Jesus' relatives or somebody that knew him growing up, I imagine I would have a hard time if he started kind of doing what he was doing and started saying the things he was saying.
I imagine I would have a hard time.
If Travis started saying he was the son of God.
Sure.
I would be like, Travis, you're going to have to do something amazing to prove to me that this is actually.
You're going to have to survive a bus accident.
Yeah, right.
It's a little more than that.
It's not just saying that gunpowder was created by the Chinese in 32 BC.
It's not a miracle there.
That's right.
Although it was true.
No, I always ask audiences, how many people have a brother?
And people raise their hand and I go, how many people have a brother who thinks he's God?
Yeah, you don't believe in him either, right?
Neither did the brothers of Jesus.
They didn't believe he was God.
Not initially anyway.
We learned later that James does because he dies as a martyr as the pastor in the church in Jerusalem in 1962 AD.
Doesn't he get thrown off the temple?
Yeah.
According to Josephus, this isn't even in the New Testament.
He got thrown off the Temple Mount.
Yes.
I'm trying to think, okay.
That's pretty high.
So high, sort of like into the Kidron Valley.
Is that kind of where he got passed or something?
It could have been on the other side where the Wailing Wall is now, the Western Wall.
It's been two feet high.
Yeah, it's really up there.
You would not survive that fall.
No.
No.
And then he was stoned after he got, just to make sure he was dead.
Then he was stoned.
James the Just was stoned.
And it's Josephus and Hegasippus.
Hegasippus, the historian who lived later, talks about this.
So it makes no sense to say that James, who was the brother of the half-brother of Jesus, would actually believe that his brother was God unless something dramatic like the resurrection occurred.
And of course, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 in that famous creed that comes all the way from the event itself that James is one of the people to whom Jesus appeared.
So James must have gone, okay, you're God now.
I get it.
You're resurrected.
And then he gives his life away.
Yeah.
He's the pastor.
So what would you say is the most embarrassing biblical story?
Well, one of the ones that I just can't believe is in there.
I don't know if it's most, but you know, the Great Commission.
This is Matthew 28.
And Jesus has all his disciples there on the mountain somewhere in Galilee.
And he's giving them the Great Commission.
Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations.
Notice he doesn't say make believers, right?
There's a difference.
He says make disciples.
It says right there, however, in verse 17 about the disciples.
Some believed, but some doubted.
Even at that point.
Yeah, the guy standing resurrected in front of him.
They're going, you see that guy over there?
Yeah.
That guy over there is Jesus.
It can't be Jesus.
They just killed him.
No, it's him.
Look, he's dead.
The Romans killed him.
They're not kill people.
It's him.
You know, how do you know?
How do you know it's Jesus?
The women told me, right?
I mean, they're not making it up.
See those two ladies over there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought this, I was reading the resurrection stories for Easter.
And I had this thought.
It's interesting.
The road to a maus.
Yeah.
You've got, what's his name?
Cleopas.
Is that his name?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Starts walking with Jesus and Jesus is telling him about the Old Testament.
It doesn't reveal who he is.
And I always wondered about this because even Mary, like when they see him for the first time, why don't they recognize him?
Is it just Jesus kind of keeping the veil on?
Yeah, I think there's a couple of interpretations.
There's that, like the veil, but there's also just a glorified body, maybe?
Yeah.
Or like you're just lying to yourself.
You're just in such denial.
Like just no way that could be that person.
And it is interesting because if you think about like the perfect, the perfected version of yourself, like I wonder if people that you knew would recognize you if you were like, you know, without aging, without all those things, you know, with hair, with long, long, long, glorious hair.
Yes, that's right.
Locks.
Yeah, I like to imagine your heavenly body is like Fabio.
That's what I've always imagined, too.
Travis, we have the same.
How about yours?
Is yours going to be like Fabio?
Not quite like Fabio, more like, I don't know.
I don't have a joke.
Chris Hemsworth.
Chris Hemsworth.
He got it the first time around.
He got the glorified body the first time around.
He did.
Except in the later Marvel, he didn't have a glorified body.
Remember when he was a drunk and he was.
Yeah, fat Thor.
But then he got really, really big for the last, the other Thor.
Yeah, he did.
Yeah.
A lot of steroids.
Anyway, so that's what I always thought.
I was thinking about that.
You were talking about it.
Nobody recognizes him, which I think that's included.
That's another sort of embarrassing thing.
Because why wouldn't you, because that seems like if you were looking at it from the outside, you'd be like, see, it was a different guy.
Or like it wasn't Jesus.
You know, like it was somebody else that he had been grooming for all these years, you know, like the illusionist.
Remember that movie, The Illusionists?
And like he had a twin brother that is that didn't tell anyone about it.
One scholar actually said that was the case.
Of course, it's refuted by the empty tomb because they could have completely destroyed Christianity, the Romans and the Jews, by going to the tomb and saying, here's his body.
He's dead.
So, no, that doesn't work either.
So it was Jesus that came out of the tomb.
And yet people are still going, I don't think it's him.
Yeah.
Right.
But, but if it really happened, I might say the same thing.
Are you sure this is him?
Yeah.
Like, why wouldn't you?
But if you're trying to pass off a lie as the truth, you would say, we never doubted.
We knew it was him from the beginning.
We were at the tomb waiting.
Yeah.
You know, we saw him come out.
You know, they never say they saw him come out of the tomb.
That's true, too.
They could have.
They could have said, oh, yeah, we were right.
We were there Sunday morning.
Stone rolled back.
Here he came.
Yeah.
No.
You wouldn't say that.
You would think if you were writing the story, you would make it just like lock, just rock solid.
Lock it down.
Just lock it down.
Would be Jesus comes out of the tomb.
He says, Hey, I'm Jesus.
He says to everyone, He's not appearing at different places or doing like kind of mysterious stuff.
You know, he's just, he comes out, he makes a declaration, and then he goes away.
Yeah, it's not the way it's done.
Yeah.
And it's authentic the way it's done because that's the way it really happened.
You don't have like contrary statements by the Roman authorities about those two guards that passed out dead.
You know, something happened to them and they know that.
And, but they don't say like, oh, they were murdered by, you know, stoned to death by the Jews.
You know, how about that?
How about the general kind of cluelessness of the disciples through most of the story?
Like, how many times they go, we didn't know what he was saying.
We didn't know what he was talking about.
We didn't quite get it.
Yeah.
Would you really admit that?
Or after the fact, wouldn't you, would you kind of like leave that aside, right?
You would, you would say, well, I'm not going to say here I really didn't get it because I want to say that I really did.
Right.
That's right.
But no, they put in there what really happened.
I think that's one of my favorite anecdotes, actually, because like some of the things Jesus says are obviously a little more, they're parables.
And I can see that they're like, okay, this will come to me later.
But then when he just goes, oh, and I'm going to die and resurrect, they're like, I have no idea what that means.
That could be this metaphor for something, right?
I mean, he's always talking spiritually.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, you know, he obviously means it's like the vine and the vine dresser kind of thing, right?
Yeah.
That's right.
But they come across as complete dimwits.
They do.
And they're the ones that then say that, no, they've seen him resurrected.
And I think it's important for the audience to know that the people that wrote down the New Testament, all of them, with the exception of Luke, are all Jews.
They're all Old Testament, Yahweh-believing.
We're God's chosen people, Jews.
They had no motive to invent a resurrection story.
And here they are claiming a man claimed to be God, which they didn't believe could happen.
And a man rose from the dead, which they didn't think one guy would rise from the dead.
They thought everyone would rise from the dead at the end of time, according to Daniel 12, but they didn't think one guy would come up and say, I'm God, here I am.
No.
And yet here they are saying that going to their deaths, as the resurrection hoax video shows.
For what?
They didn't get.
In fact, have you had Jim Wallace on the show yet, Jay Warner Wallace?
So I did an interview.
I think we did have him on a Zoom call.
I think I'd love to have him in.
Yeah, you need to have him in.
Yeah.
Because he makes the point, you know, he's the cold case homicide guy.
Right.
Right.
He goes, whenever he finds a dead body, he says, whenever I find a dead body, I know the guy's been murdered.
He said, there's only three reasons why that guy's dead.
It's not a thousand reasons.
I don't need to track down a thousand motivations.
I know that guy's dead for one or more of these three reasons.
There was either a sex issue, a money issue, or a power issue.
Sex, money, or power are the three things that'll cause people or influence people to murder.
Because why?
Sex, money, and power are good things.
In fact, they're so good, we'll take shortcuts to get them, right?
So Jim is saying that if you're going to say that the New Testament writers invented this whole thing, you've got to find one or more of those three motivators because that would motivate them to maybe do it.
So I always ask audiences, I say, okay, let's look at the first one.
Did the New Testament writers get real popular with the ladies for saying Jesus had resurrected from the dead?
Well, Peter had a wife.
He had a wife, but he already already did.
He didn't need the resurrection to keep her, right?
We know Paul did not get motivated.
He did not get popular with the ladies.
No, no, no, no.
Or did they get money?
Well, they weren't 21st century prosperity gospel preachers.
That's true.
And did they get power?
No, they got the opposite.
They got persecuted.
Saul had power when he was persecuting the church.
He was the one persecuted as soon as he said he was a Christian.
So they didn't get sex.
They didn't get money.
They didn't get power.
This is not an invented story.
Yeah.
You know, you got to find one of those three motivators.
In fact, just look at, just look at our political landscape today.
Yeah.
I don't care what party you're talking about.
Whoever is in the White House, that White House press secretary.
Joe Biden right now.
Yeah, no, the White House press secretary.
They spin everything, don't they?
Oh, yeah.
It's all spin.
They never tell you the truth.
No.
I mean, we define recession as two quarters where there's negative growth.
And that happened.
Well, it's not a recession.
Why?
Because we've said it isn't, you know.
That's right.
I mean, they just change the rules.
They change vocabulary.
They change, they spin everything.
Yeah.
Immigration has dropped by 90%.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
This was the most recent statement.
Seriously.
Like, how are you defining this?
Like, what are you, the numbers have like quadrupled?
Like, what are you talking about?
Yeah.
And she's doing that in front of a video clip where people are just storming across the border, you know.
It's dropped.
You know, are you going to believe me or you're lying eyes?
You know, let me be clear.
Yes.
90%.
She always says, let me be clear.
But you don't see the spin in the New Testament or even the Old Testament.
There's none of that trying to cover up for the embarrassing stories, the embarrassing details that the Israelites in the Old Testament engage in and the New Testament writers and the apostles engage in in the New Testament.
It's not embarrassing.
It's just telling the truth.
And so I think embarrassing details, in fact, when I'm before a college audience or even a church audience, and I only have a limited amount of time, in order for me to show them why I think the New Testament writers are telling the truth, I give two lines of evidence.
One is the embarrassing stuff we've been talking about, and the other I call the excruciating deaths, which is really what the resurrection hoax video is all about.
They're not going to go to their desks for a known lie.
They might go to their deaths if they thought it was true, but they wouldn't go to their desks knowing it's a lie and none recanted.
So those two facts in my mind show, and there's many other lines of evidence in the I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist book.
We have 10 reasons why the New Testament writers told the truth, but these two are the ones I present to audiences when I have a limited amount of time.
Now, that's the biggest thing.
So what about you still go to college campuses kind of a lot, don't you?
Yeah, I was just at the University of New Hampshire last week.
Yeah.
What are you majoring in?
Yeah.
I wouldn't be accepted there if I was.
Poly Sci?
Yeah, Poly Science and Christian Christian.
Chrome Economics.
Right.
Gender studies.
Gender studies.
Very useful degree.
That's right.
Yeah.
That's good.
Communications.
So that's what I got my degree in.
It worked for you.
Well, you're in it.
I'm doing communications.
Yeah.
I communicate.
We communicate.
We do communicate.
Mostly I use it for Travis when we talk.
Yeah.
So, yeah, we just at University of New Hampshire.
We've been this semester at Ohio State.
We've been at Louisiana, Christian, Louisiana Tech.
Where else have we been this past semester?
Awesome.
Why don't we say next semester?
It'd be in the fall.
We'll be at Fresno State.
Oh, cool.
We'll be at Auburn.
We'll be at Lord Willing.
We'll be at several others that I can't think of right now.
It's a lot of traveling.
Yeah, it's a fair amount, but we try and do 20 colleges a year.
Do you have groupies that go with you?
No.
Oh, like the Turek tour?
Yeah.
Well, because it sounds like a tour.
It's just me and one guy, the video guy who's amazing, Clint Bolan.
He brings two Pelican cases and a backpack that you would think ABC Sports showed up.
He's got four cameras set up.
He controls it all from his iPad.
We live stream it.
And you'd think we've got all sorts of cameramen.
We don't.
It's just him.
It's just great.
He's incredible.
Yeah.
So we were going to try to pretend to be college students to ask you some questions.
Yeah.
So that we could kind of, what do you think?
Put your hat on.
Put it backwards, Travis.
That's what the kids are doing now.
I'm pretty sure it is.
I've seen other things.
A lot of times they wear them forward.
Well, we're being cisgendered.
They're very weird.
That's so true.
Okay.
So, all right.
So we are standing in line and you're up on stage and at the podium.
This is someplace you're very familiar with.
Us less so.
And we have questions for you.
Travis, you want to see the first question?
Like, are the Mormons wrong?
What do you mean by Mormon?
I don't know.
I did not see that coming.
Well, what do you mean by, what do you mean by Mormon?
The Mormons don't like to.
Yeah, that's pretty good.
Mormons don't like to be called Mormons anymore.
Do you know that?
Well, the Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints guys, right?
Yeah.
But that's branding.
Right.
Right.
That is branding.
We know what Mormons are.
Yeah.
The same way we know what women are.
Right.
Which we don't.
Well, I might ask people when, because I normally ask people questions back to try and get clarification.
Well, what do you know about Mormonism?
What do you think they believe?
They have 20 wives.
They're going to get their own planet.
Yeah.
Well, actually, you're right about that, Mr. Jarrett.
They think they're going to get their own planet.
I was answering as a college student.
I was to know that they don't all have 20 wives.
Oh.
Some of them may.
Some of them have one.
Yeah.
Some of them have one.
It's more common now to have merely one.
Why?
Nearly one.
Nearly.
Oh, nearly.
Yes.
I mean, I think one way to answer the question about other religions is this.
If Christianity is true, if it's true, which is what I've been doing when by the time I get to Q ⁇ A, I've tried to show them that it is.
If Christianity is true, it doesn't mean that all other religions are wrong or false.
It means wherever they disagree with Christianity, they are wrong.
So, for example, Islam has a lot of truth in it.
They believe in God.
They may have different attributes, but they believe in a creator God, right?
They believe in prayer.
They believe just like Christians, we ought to give 2.5% of our income.
Just like some of you may get that tomorrow.
That's probably true in our church.
That's right.
I think he's speaking in a parable.
Oh, yes.
And they had no idea what he was saying.
That's right.
They believe in prayer.
So with regard to Mormonism, Mormons, they believe in a spiritual realm, quite obviously.
They get that right.
Just about everything else, they appear to get wrong if the Bible is true.
Okay.
Because Jesus is not the spirit brother of Lucifer.
Grace is enough.
You don't have to add anything to grace.
There aren't multiple gods.
There's one God, one God, three persons in that God, a Trinity.
You're not going to get your own planet when you die.
There's not three levels of heaven or three levels of the afterlife.
If Christianity is true, then Mormonism would be wrong.
And there's no miraculous confirmation for Mormonism.
There is miraculous confirmation for Christianity.
What about the burning in the bosom?
Is that miraculous confirmation?
Yeah, no, because the burning in the bosom, you don't know where the burning in the bosom comes from.
You mean just feeling it really hard?
Well, that's what they would say.
They say, if you doubt this, go pray until you get a burning in your head.
Oh, yeah, you could have that about anything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I ate a taco once.
Yeah, I was going to say.
Good job.
You went there.
The taco Mormon.
No, it's been said this way.
Christianity, if it's true, is a system of truth.
But I might have some wrong beliefs about it.
I might have some error in it because obviously we're not all knowing.
We may have some things wrong, but it's a system of truth with some error.
Other religions, if Christianity is true, is a system of error with some truth.
So Islam has some truth in it.
Mormonism does have some truth in it.
Hinduism has some truth.
I mean, there's some truth in what they say.
They're not completely wrong, but at the core they're wrong.
So if theism is true, I mean, if there is a God, and I think you can establish that through the cosmological, teleological, and moral arguments, for example, that then any non-theism is false.
So Hinduism and Buddhism, where they're non-theistic, they're false on those points anyway.
Islam would be true on that point.
So would Judaism or some other generic theism, right?
So I think you have to point out the nuances when you say, are they all wrong?
They're wrong about the essentials, but they might not be wrong about some details.
Now, okay.
We really stepped up the second question.
My next question, I've been, so in my, my English class, we're studying this guy named Pelagius and Phineas F. Brzezi.
We're not saying that.
But this is, I'm a good person.
So I don't need this religion.
So, you know, what do you say to that?
What do you mean by good?
I mean that I have good feelings towards other people.
But what does good mean?
Gross.
Good means positive.
What does positive mean?
Positive means happy.
Happy?
So you're a happy person and therefore what follows from that?
That I'm good.
To a circle.
Okay.
That you're good.
And why do you think the purpose of life is being good?
Because we evolved that way.
We evolved.
So how do we have an objective standard of good if we evolved?
Are you saying there's no God?
Yes.
Okay, so is good just your preference then?
Good is my whatever helps us evolve better.
Better.
What do you mean by better?
Survive.
Survival.
So if rape helps us survive, should we do that?
Of course not.
Why not?
Because it's bad.
This is actually the way these conversations go sometimes, isn't it?
Yeah, you just.
Well, except it usually, in my experience, it descends into them just going, why do you, I don't even have to explain to you.
It's not my fault you're so dumb.
That's true.
No, but what's really going on.
What's really going on is that many students today are living off the vapor of Christianity, right?
They have this sense that they have rights, for example.
Where do rights come from?
Rights only come from God, right?
They don't come from government.
If government gives you rights, then when a government changes and decides you no longer can do what you thought you could do, you no longer have the right.
No, a right is something that isn't granted to you by other people.
It's granted to you by your creator, as our Declaration of Independence says.
I thought Thomas Jefferson invented rights.
Yeah, that's what he invented.
That's why he said that.
That's that French guy.
Who's the other French guy?
Locke?
Who?
Who?
Yeah, yeah.
No, no, no, no.
The other French guy.
Oh, the other French guy.
I watched it on Tuttle Twins, of course.
Okay.
But so when young people now ask questions like this, they're getting their rights from the Christian worldview.
They just don't know it.
And so when they come up with concepts of good and evil and all these things, it's sort of latent in their consciousness and they can't justify why it's there if there's no God.
Obviously, if there's no God, evolution can't tell you what to do.
Evolution is a biological process.
It has no authority.
There's no oughtness to evolution.
It's just what happens if it's true.
That's right.
And even Richard Dawkins admitted this.
In fact, he was asked once, Justin Briarly asked him once the question.
So you're saying that rape is, how did he put it?
It's wrong to rape as just an evolutionary outcome, just like I have five fingers instead of six.
And Dawkins said something like, yeah, that's right.
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
So it's more the evolution of thought as part of their genetic evolution.
Well, yeah, well, here's the problem.
If evolution gives us our moral thoughts, that means evolution gives us all of our thoughts.
And if evolution gives us all our thoughts, why should we believe even the thought that evolution gives us all our thoughts?
We shouldn't.
Because evolution gave you those thoughts.
I believe evolution.
So I'm a college student and I just came up and I said, hey, there's a bunch of hypocrites in the church.
Therefore, boo.
Yeah.
A bunch of hypocrites.
Why would I want to be a Christian when Czech Christians are hypocrites?
Terror.
Okay.
My question is, what do you mean by hypocrite?
A hippo that does critical damage.
An actor.
That's actually what it comes from.
Like Jared.
He's an actor.
Well, you know, someone who says something and then does the opposite.
Okay.
Why is that wrong?
Because it's mean.
Why is being mean wrong?
Because I don't like it.
Oh, so it's a preference.
No.
Here's the question you can ask people.
First of all, you can admit you're a hypocrite, which I do.
But that doesn't mean what I believe is wrong.
In fact, John Dixon, who's an historian, asked this question.
He says, when somebody plays Beethoven poorly, who do you blame?
Beethoven.
Yeah.
Yeah, right.
You blame Beethoven.
Beethoven.
That's terrible.
I can't believe you let this guy play your tunes.
That's a good point, though.
Yeah, you don't blame Beethoven.
You blame the player.
So when someone plays Jesus poorly, who do you blame?
You don't blame Jesus.
And I always say, look, just because I'm not true and beautiful doesn't mean Jesus isn't true and beautiful.
Blame the player.
That's right.
So newsflash, Christianity is not Christians.
Christianity is Jesus.
So keep your eyes on Jesus.
I like that.
And I said in my second debate with Hitchens, I said, look, I'm a hypocrite.
I can't live up to what Jesus told me to live up to.
But if I could, I wouldn't need him.
If I was perfect, I wouldn't need a savior.
I normally mention to audiences, I say, you know, you can get to heaven by being good.
You can.
You just got to be perfect your whole life.
Too late for me.
How about you?
So with Hitchens, I said, I'm a hypocrite.
I can't live up to what Jesus said I had to live up to.
Only he could.
So when people say, I can't go to church because there's too many hypocrites down there, I always say, come on down, pal.
We got room for one more.
The church is a hospital for sinners.
It's not a country club for saints.
We're all fallen.
Museum for saints.
No, that's right.
I always thought that was a strange argument anyway, because hypocrites are.
That person obviously doesn't think they're perfect.
So why do they think someone's perfect?
Some of these people, though, they don't come in thinking they're perfect.
They think they're good.
Yeah.
So they don't really couch it in the same way.
They're not like, I am morally perfect.
They're like, no, no, no, no.
I'm a good person.
I make some mistakes even.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, but I'm a good person.
Which I guess would be the next question.
What kind of a God would send a good person to hell?
Right.
Yeah.
Well, that's the question.
What do you mean by good again?
You're getting back to that question.
Oh, no.
And that, by the way, is that that question is a, assumes a moral standard that God somehow doesn't meet the moral standard.
But if there is no God, there is no moral standard.
That's the problem.
Now, a fair position for someone to take would be, well, I don't believe the Christian God is the true God.
I have another God, and that God is the moral standard.
Well, then you have to ask, what evidence do you have for that God?
And what about all the evidence that the Christian God is the true God?
They have to have to deal with that.
So the burden of proof becomes theirs.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
And then they say, I don't want to deal with that.
Answer my question.
Answer that anyway.
That's right.
Nice try.
Let's see.
So, okay, I've got one.
I'm standing in line and I'm wearing my rainbow colored stuff and got my hair on.
The technical color dream code.
Yeah, the dream code for that my father gave me.
Yeah.
So Christians are just a bunch of fascists, and you're just trying to control my body and my choices.
Wow.
Nailed it.
He won't be able to get out of this one.
Nice try.
That's right.
We're out of time.
We're just trying.
You're trying to control my body and my choices.
Why would that be wrong?
Let's say it's true.
Because I should be free to make my own choices.
You said.
You?
Me.
I am the end-all.
You are.
So you're the moral standard.
I am.
So why are you trying to impose your moral standard on me then?
Because you're trying to impose your moral standard on me.
Okay, but why is that wrong?
Because we're both trying to impose a moral standard.
Why is your moral standard the one that ought to be opposed and not mine?
Let's see.
Because freedom of choice it should be the moral standard.
Are there cute cards over there?
No.
He's just really good at circular research.
That's right.
And of course, there's a loaded word in that, fascist.
What do you mean by fascist?
These are all, you know, remember you guys had, that was a great, a great Babylon B headline.
It had to be like two years ago during COVID.
It was something like, you guys maybe can remember, a group goes around claiming that you're a fascist if you don't make their hand salute or something.
What was that headline?
That's right.
What was it, kind of like the BLM time, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't remember how it was worded, but I remember thinking that's a pretty good one.
Yeah.
The hypocrisy of it is just so perfect.
It was when you guys had that interview with Elon Musk and he said, if irony could kill, that person would be dead.
That's funny.
But it's all these questions assume a moral standard.
So I'm going to try and go back and ask of the person, what is the moral standard by which you're bringing these up?
Because basically what she's doing or he's doing at the microphone is assuming a moral standard that exists if Christianity is true, but doesn't exist if Christianity is false, unless another theistic God exists that we don't know about.
So it always has to appeal to a higher moral standard.
And so the question becomes which moral standard and which God.
Yeah, which God is behind the moral standard.
Because if there's no God, it's just human opinion.
It's just my opinion against your opinion or Hitler's opinion against Mother Teresa's opinion.
There's no standard outside of ourselves if there is no God.
It's just a bunch of human beings duking it out.
And that's what we see now, as you know.
Since we've lost transcendence in our culture, you can't govern by principle anymore.
You can only govern by power.
That's where cancel culture comes from.
We can't shut you down with any moral authority because there is no ultimate moral authority.
So we're just going to shut you up.
We're just going to use power to say you guys can't be heard anymore.
Well, isn't that it now?
I say like it's a conversation about power anyway.
Yeah.
Everyone's basically a neo-Marxist and they're all trying to impose power.
It's all about power structures.
That's right.
Yeah.
You're an oppressor.
Might makes right.
But that's what it is now.
Isn't it interesting, though?
The Marxist worldview says oppression is wrong.
According to what standard is oppression wrong?
They're using, and all it is, is it's a system of conflict.
You're never going to have a community when you have a system of conflict, when you pit identity groups against one another.
It's just a complete system of conflict.
Now, Christianity comes along and says, all those identity groups, you're one in Christ.
That's right.
So now we can have a community, a common unity.
We can't have a common unity if we're pitting ourselves against one another.
Oh, you're a white guy.
you're an oppressor oh you're a and oppression is wrong only if it's oppressing the oppressed But if the oppressors, if the oppressed start to oppress the oppressors, then oppression is perfectly confused.
That's called liberation.
Yeah.
That's right.
It's perfectly fine.
I said oppressed a lot.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Yes, Obama.
Thank you.
Thanks, Obama.
Thanks, Obama.
Well, that's actually true if there is no moral standard.
Yeah, right.
There's no moral standard.
Yeah.
Jihad's just fine.
It's just your opinion.
Shutting people down in the public square, that's just using power.
Using power.
It's not using principle.
It's not using a moral standard.
It's using just your power or it's your own invented moral standard.
You're perpetually talking about it.
Yeah, over and over, all throughout forever.
Yeah.
And beyond.
Perpetual conflict.
You can't go on an infinite regress.
You're going to ultimately terminate in a moral standard.
And that moral standard has to be a person because only persons issue commands.
Yes.
And that person has to have authority over human beings.
Otherwise, it's not an obligation.
I guess the big question you have to ask people is where do obligations come from?
Where do they come from?
Obligations.
I'm obligated.
In fact, C.S. Lewis, of course, talks about this in Mere Christianity.
He says, well, if you're going to say that I'm obligated because it's good for society, and then you ask, well, what if it isn't, what if it benefits me, but not society?
Well, you should do it because it's the right thing to do.
Why?
Because it's good for society.
You're arguing in a circle again.
It's like people say, oh, we need to cooperate.
That's why we have morality.
No, you don't.
Stalin didn't need to cooperate.
He murdered most of the people around him to get what he wanted.
And then he died on his deathbed at the age of 74, shaking his fist at God one last time.
He didn't cooperate.
He killed everybody in his way and got what he wanted.
Why is he wrong?
Why is he wrong?
There's no way.
There's no moral standard.
You know, that's okay.
So we are done being college students.
So you guys were smarter than most college students.
I doubt that.
Coming up next for Babylon B subscribers.
So we have you on, and you're kind of an outspoken non-Calvin, non-Calvinist.
Predestined to be.
Yes, that's right.
Hard five-point Calvinism makes Yahweh Allah.
So you're saying Dan is a Muslim?
Someone Googled me and figured out I'd written the book, and they fired me on the spot and said, you can't work here.
I said, in the name of inclusion, tolerance, and diversity, you're excluding me and not tolerating me for holding a diverse view?
This has been another edition of the Babylon B podcast from the dedicated team of certified fake news journalists you can trust here at the Babylon Bee, reminding you to go to Sizzler today, unless you're one of those poor souls in the Sizzler dead zone.
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