Humanity Of Cops, Christianity, and The Power Of Media | The Ryan Tillman Interview
On The Babylon Bee Interview Show, Kyle and Ethan talk to Ryan Tillman of Breaking Barriers United. They talk about misconceptions about being a cop, being an outspoken Christian, and the power of the media on public perception. Ryan Tillman is a working police officer and founder of Breaking Barriers United. Breaking Barriers United is a Christian organization dedicated to bridging the gap between the community and the police force. Ryan does public speaking and breakdowns of police incidents to help inform the community on police work. Kyle and Ethan find out Ryan Tillman's origin story into becoming a police officer. Ryan shares how he started off hating cops and how he came around to the idea of being a police officer. Kyle and Ethan find out the misconceptions into being a police officer and how we forget that cops are human too. Ryan shares how his Christianity has played a huge role in his life. We learn the distinction between racial profiling and criminal profiling. Then we find out why we need to start refunding the police instead of defunding them. In the Subscriber Portion, Ryan tries to top Greg Kading's cop story with his own crazy story that starts off at a Motel 6 and leads into all different crazy directions. Kyle and Ethan find out how Ryan decompresses after having depressing nights on the job. He talks about being the prayer cop and finding real purpose for his career. Kyle and Ethan end the interview with the 10 questions.
I just have to say that I object strenuously to your use of the word hilarious.
Hard-hitting questions.
What do you think about feminism?
Do you like it?
Taking you to the cutting edge of truth.
Yeah, well, Last Jedi is one of the worst movies ever made, and it was very clear that Ryan Johnson doesn't like Star Wars.
Kyle pulls no punches.
I want to ask how you're able to sleep at night.
Ethan brings bone-shattering common sense from the top rope.
If I may, how double dare you?
This is the Babylon B interview show.
You want to meet Seth Dylan, CEO of the Babylon Bee?
He's going to talk about his fight with the New York Times and the influence of G.K. Chesterton here at the B at the upcoming Chesterton Conference this July.
Dylan will keynote Thursday evening, July 29th.
The theme of the conference is The Laughing Prophet, Hope, Joy, and G.K. Chesterton.
Celebrate all things Chesterton with common sense, wonder, humor, and adventure.
On July 29th, 30th, and 31st.
In person, you can see him in Naperville, Illinois, or you can go online and see this.
It's a hybrid event.
That's like two events together.
Enjoy a lively, engaging, and fun weekend with like-minded folks, intellectual stimulation, spiritual edification, and fun.
Use the code the B25 for a discount on registration.
That's the B25.
And FYI, Chesterton Society President Dale Alquist, is going to be our guest on this podcast in October.
I'm pretty excited about that.
Register for the Chesterton Conference at chesterton.org/slash conference.
Hey, everybody, welcome to the Babylon B Interview Show.
Very exciting show where we two very exciting people and skilled interviewers interview very exciting guests, and we're very excited today.
So excited because you know what?
We get to talk to a cop.
Yeah, we like talking to you.
They always have the best stories.
They do.
We like picking their brains.
And this was a young, lively, rambunctious cop.
He's still working as a cop.
You know, usually I listen to like True Crime podcasts, and you listen to the cops, and they're like, I detained the suspect, and Suspect A was approximately 30 feet away.
He was dressed in brown and involved.
An altercation had occurred.
An altercation occurred, and this guy was just like, not like that.
Yeah.
I wasn't going to imitate him.
Very animated.
Officer Ryan Tillman, who runs an organization called Breaking Barriers United.
And it's an organization that, it's an organization that tries to repair the bond between law enforcement and the community.
It's a Christian organization, and Ryan Tillman's a Christian.
It's explicitly Christian.
Yeah.
I went on the website and it's like, you know, sometimes it's like it's run by Christians, but they don't.
I don't know.
They kind of hide it like BLM hides the communism.
Yeah.
But that's not BBU.
What BBU does is on the front pages is like, this organization is brought to you by Jesus Christ in big letters.
It's literally on the website.
So it's pretty cool.
And he'll be on any interview you see this guy on whatever secular news station is.
And he immediately leads with like, well, the Lord, he just talks about God and his life.
It's freaking awesome.
So BBU believes in getting the best police officers and transparency.
They do workshops that talk to the students and community.
They do a lot of student, like high school outreach.
They dance.
They dance.
There's a video of him dancing.
Oh, okay.
It's like his top video.
I was just rolling with it.
And Ryan's got a weekly podcast through BBU called hashtag It's Needed.
It's Needed.
And we think that podcast is needed.
That's why it's called It's Needed.
It's on iTunes and YouTube.
BBU.
You can find on YouTube.
And they've got Facebook, Instagram, and breakingbarriersunited.com.
So please check out all of Ryan's stuff.
And let's talk to him.
And he's got some crazy stories he's going to tell us.
Really cool cop story.
Especially in the subscriber portion.
There was a good one.
It rivaled our best cop story so far.
Pretty good.
Pretty good.
Oh, I hear him.
He's coming right now.
I hear sirens.
He's kicking the door down.
Freeze.
He's there.
Scum.
Why are we?
All right.
Well, how are you doing, Ryan?
Thanks for joining us.
Doing good, man.
Doing good.
Thanks for having me, fellas.
I appreciate it.
I'm always rushing from one place to another, but you know, I'm still glad I made it here safely.
Yeah, you're like a rich social media presence and you're doing all this stuff, but you're actually a cop still, right?
I am.
I was just telling somebody 40 hours a week.
I'm a cop still.
40 hours, too.
You do like the like, we work like 24 hours or something.
Yeah, I wish the firefighter schedule.
I mean, to go and, you know, work out, lift weights, wash cars, and then go to a car.
No, we don't do that schedule.
No, but yeah, I'm 40 hours a week as a police officer full-time.
And then I'm still traveling, speaking across the country.
I'm going to Virginia next week, be in Pennsylvania, Dallas, and stuff like that.
Oh, that's wild.
Wow.
How you find time, man?
I don't know.
My wife, my beautiful wife at home, and she holds it down the fort.
And I just got, it's just, I got to be very strategic with my time and kind of game plan specifically so I can make everything.
You always got the lights and siren going.
Yeah, right?
Get everywhere fast.
The police express lane.
That's it.
So we want to talk about this Breaking Barriers United.
Your Christian organization.
That's pretty cool.
But first, why don't you give us a cool cop story?
That's always what we want to know.
If I'm hanging out with a cop at like a party, though, this guy's a police officer.
That's the first thing.
So I'll give you a cool cop story.
It'd be quick.
I mean, it was, this is not one of the gory graphic ones.
So I do have those.
Save the story.
I do have those.
Yes, there is a very crazy one I have for you on that one.
See if you can top our last cop because our last cop that came on had an amazing story.
Oh, man.
We're going to see if you can one up.
Well, this one is actually kind of a cool story.
This one is, I was actually on a call for service.
Some girl had called the police because she said that her dad had punched her in the face.
So we got there and, you know, the girl is bleeding, but you know, it wasn't nothing crazy.
So she chose not to go to the police station or whatever or to the hospital.
And so as we're there talking, I talked to dad and as I start to see dad, I'm like looking around the house.
And I think there was like four other kids in the house.
So they have a big family.
And Christian guy, and I started seeing he had Tony Evans and Tony Evans is a pastor that I love to listen to.
So we got to talking.
And he was like, yeah, man, I hit my daughter.
And he was like, the reason I hit her, though, is because, you know, she's sneaking boys into the house.
She's calling my wife the B-word.
She's, you know, doing all sorts of stuff that she shouldn't be doing.
So I popped her in the face.
And so it was weird because like the kids, some of the kids are like, you should have never called the police.
And then others are like, no, like, dad shouldn't have hit her, blah, blah, blah.
So anyways, you know, me and my partner, we made it with like we had a, it was a child.
I mean, he hit her, caused some type of damage or some bleeding.
So we took him to jail.
But I treated him with a lot of respect.
I was like, hey, man, I don't want your neighbors to have to see you be arrested, man.
I'm not going to walk you out of your house in handcuffs.
I'm going to walk you to my car.
And then we'll kind of put you in handcuffs behind the door.
So that way they don't have to see it.
And I was like, I don't want your kids to see that either.
So then he was like, man, I appreciate that.
So then, you know, I prayed with him and then he got in the car.
And then I was getting ready to leave.
I wasn't taking him to jail.
My partner was.
And like, for some reason, I just felt like God is pulling on my spirit.
Like, hey, go back and pray with the wife.
So I was like, all right, cool.
So I went back, you know, went back to the house.
I was like, hey, you know, this is going to sound kind of weird, but for some reason, I feel like God is just asking me to pray for you and your family.
She's like, oh my goodness.
Like, I was hoping you were going to come back.
And so I grabbed hands, held hands with her and the family, and we started praying or whatever.
So that was that.
So then fast forward, like four months, my wife and I were going to, we're going on a vacation with the kids to Hawaii.
And so me running late to everything, even this morning, I'm like, hey, babe, we'll be fine.
We'll fly out.
Like the flight is at 8:30 tomorrow.
We'll fly out.
We'll get to the airport.
LAX is 7:30.
We should be good.
I didn't realize that I should have probably left a lot sooner than what we left from here.
And so we pull up to the airport and it's like 7, 15-ish, 7.30-ish.
And like the lines are like serpentined around.
I'm like, oh my goodness, my wife is going to kill me.
Like she's going to be like, I should have never listened to you.
We got two kids, a stroller, all this other stuff.
So anyways, long story short, I see, as soon as we pull up, I see a guy that recognized me.
I didn't recognize him.
So I'm like, hey, man, how you doing?
The whole ball is well.
I was like, I'll talk to you in a minute.
I got to check my bag.
So I go check my bags and then I got to check my gun into the airport.
So then I come back.
I was like, hey, man, so good seeing you.
How you doing?
And then it kind of caught me where I met, remember this guy.
So I was like, hey, man, like, it's good seeing you.
So he's like, hey, man, you want me to take you to the front of the line?
I was like, yeah, like, I would love that, man.
So he walks me and my family up to the front of the line.
We bypass everything because he worked for Delta.
I should have said that.
He worked for Delta, the airlines we were finding out of.
So we bypass all the lines.
And then when we get through security, we ended up hopping on the tram.
They were like, hey, we'll drive you up to the tarmat.
So when we got on the plane, like as soon as we sat down, the plane took off.
Like they were just waiting on us to get there.
And there was like a last call.
So in two minutes, the plane was going to take off.
So then we sit down.
My wife was like, how did you know that guy brought us up here?
I was like, you want to know what's funny?
I was like, I arrested that guy on a child abuse three months ago.
And she was like, are you serious?
I was like, yeah, like I arrested this dude three months ago.
I prayed for his family.
I was like in all places at LAX.
I see him at all lines.
And so that was a really cool story because it came full circle.
One day I'm helping him and his family out.
The next day, he's helping my family out.
So kind of crazy how things work full circle like that.
Power of prayer.
Cool story, bro.
It is.
It is.
Now, my next story I'll save, though, that would be a little bit more.
I was expecting like, you know, meth had bit my partner's nose off.
Oh, no, I got those.
I'm going to save some for the other one.
Saving that.
It's going to be in there.
You got to go to that subscriber portion.
See?
Okay.
We're already getting him to show for us.
Chicken soup for the soul portion here.
And then we'll do that.
And then we'll do the crazy stuff.
Exactly.
All right.
So, I mean, a lot's been going on with all the cops, cop stuff.
I mean, and you're pretty young.
So, I mean, what was the from what I've seen your story, you didn't really ever plan on becoming a police officer.
What was the environment when you decided to become one?
Was that, I mean, because right now I can't imagine anybody wanting to become a cop.
Yeah, so I didn't want to become a cop at all.
I couldn't stand cops.
I had some bad run-ins with them.
And then my family's had some bad run-ins with them.
And so, you know, fast forward, I went to college, played football, graduated, moved back home, was working at Abercrombie and Fitch, you know, which I hated, man.
I was spraying the cologne around the store all day long.
And then I probably got cancer from that.
Hey, if you were working for Abercrombie and Fitch during this time period, but anyways, do you still wear the glasses on or dude?
No, I don't.
No.
So I'm working there.
And so my wife had got pregnant with our firstborn child.
And I was like, I need to do something else.
Like, I was like, you know, I did Pride America.
I was going to do door-to-door sales.
And I was like, if I needed, I need to do something else to kind of, you know, make sure I support her.
So long story short, my dad's friend was a police officer locally.
He was like, Ryan, you should be a cop.
I was like, no, I'm not going to do that.
I'm not working for the man.
Not about to be a pig.
Like, nope, not doing that.
So for two years, he chased me around.
He was like, you should do it.
So I prayed about it.
And the doors just kind of flew open after that.
I said, God, if this is what you want me to do, open the door, if not, close it.
Well, he opened the door and I got hired with Chino Police Department.
And that was in 2013.
And so even after I got hired and went through the academy and went through training, I was like, man, I still don't know if this is what I want to do.
I was like, I feel like every time I pull somebody over, I feel like I'm messing with them.
I don't really like taking people to jail because I feel like I'm disturbing them.
But then when I got on my own as a solo police officer, I started to see that there are quality of life issues that existed.
And that if law enforcement was not there to prevent some of these people that want to go out there and do bad things to the community, then everybody will be victimized.
And then that's when it all kind of clicked.
And I was like, there is a purpose for law enforcement.
And when that happened, I started to see life from a completely different lens.
I started to understand things that I never understood.
I was now put in situations and positions that I would once criticize as police officers.
And so that's when I was like, you know, I need to go out there and educate the world about what law enforcement really is because a lot of people don't have this insight knowledge that I have now.
And so I've been on this journey for the last six years of just trying to educate people what law enforcement's about, why we do what we do, how we do what we do.
But at the same time, I also lead with empathy and I acknowledge the wrong because we're not all perfect.
You know, sadly, police officers are still human beings.
And so human beings make mistakes.
And because of that, we have to acknowledge those mistakes.
Yeah, it seems like we're dealing with a very nuanced issue.
Like, how do you manage society?
Like, that's a very complex question.
And yet, all we get is like social media.
You know, you get a three-second clip of a crime or a shooting and that's all we get to go off.
And you get to see it from a completely different perspective.
That's amazing that your view on it changed so much.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it has, man.
It's been good, though.
It's given me a lot of context and allows me to give the world context.
So what are some of the big misconceptions that you feel like need to be, people need to get?
That's a great question.
So one, people have to, one, people have to realize is that police officers are humans.
And I know it sounds cliche, but I have to say that because we're human beings, police officers make mistakes.
I just did a breakdown on my social media page, Breaking Barriers United.
That was a little plug right there.
But I just did a breakdown on the situation where this lady bit this officer when she was in handcuffs.
And it's been going viral.
Everybody's been saying, oh, no, she, you know, they shouldn't have done that.
He shouldn't have punched her in the face.
And that's why it went viral because the officer punched her in the face.
And so one, I educated people on people can still be a threat even when you're in handcuffs.
We just saw a video in Vegas a few weeks ago where this guy took the officer's gun while he was in handcuffs and was able to shoot the officer in his leg.
So people can still be a threat.
But the other part is, is that if you get bit by somebody, just because you're a human being, you're going to have a natural reaction to that.
And that natural reaction is either going to be fight or flight.
Either you're going to try to run away from a person or you're going to naturally respond by fighting that person.
And so as police, that doesn't go away just because you have a uniform and a badge on.
And so I said that I think the officer was justified in what he did, one, because he stopped the threat, but two, we have natural reactions.
So those are some of the examples that I use of how I'm able to give context to people.
And sometimes people don't want to hear what I have to say, but who cares?
You know, I'm not trying to always be politically correct just because that's why I think we're in the state we're in is in this world is that everybody wants to be politically correct without actually hearing things without getting their feelings hurt.
So story of a different day.
Have you ever been bit?
I mean, my like three-year-old bites me.
And then like my initial remaining immediate reaction, I don't punch him, but I'm just like, I shove him.
You feel the feeling.
Ah, get him off me.
Man, so I'm not going to lie.
Somebody actually one time I thought tried to bite me.
And I say I thought because retrospect, looking back, he wasn't.
He was trying to help me out.
This guy had a methamphetamine pipe in his pants, but he was already handcuffed.
And so I was like, I'm going to go get it.
So as I went to go get he had this huge shirt on.
So I'm like trying to lift up his shirt.
And so he like bit down, like towards my fingers.
And I like almost snapped.
Like I did snap actually.
They started cussing at him and stuff, which I don't really cuss that much.
And I started cussing.
And I was like, but I almost snap back to my old Rialto days when I was about to fight somebody on the street and I had to calm myself down.
But just for a split second, I saw how, you know, the human, like how human I was.
And he was like, hey, I'm sorry, officer.
I wasn't trying to bite you.
I was actually trying to help you and just grab the shirt and hold it with my teeth while you were grabbing it.
And I apologize.
So I was like, hey, man, I'm so sorry.
I shouldn't have yelled at you, shouldn't have cussed at you like that.
And so, but it just goes to show like it can happen to anybody.
Like, you know, you respond from a humanary reaction.
So.
And if a meth guy bites you, then I think you would turn into a meth guy or something.
Yeah.
Yeah, you turn to a zombie.
Yeah.
That's communicable.
Right.
Yeah.
But you're pretty outspoken about your faith.
I know your organization is explicitly Christian.
You're talking about praying with people that you're arresting.
And I mean, how does that work?
I feel like cops tend to be more neutral, you know, when they're like on duty.
Yeah.
What kind of response have you got to that kind of stuff?
I'm not your typical cop, you know, and I don't always tell people I pride myself on that.
Like, I wouldn't be out and about.
Like, you would not be able to tell as a police officer if I was out and about, unless you just follow all the stuff I do.
But that's because when I took this job, I said I vowed to be different than the officers that mistreated me.
And so I had this idea of what cops were before I became one.
I was like, these are the guys that got picked on a high school, so they became cops so they can pick on everybody else.
Like, I don't want to be that guy.
And then I didn't want to be the guy at parties, which they're always reserved, hands crossed, nobody wants to talk, or they don't want to talk to anybody.
You know, they wear 5'11 pants off duty.
If you're listening to this and your cop, no, no knock on you if you welcome outside of work.
5'11 is a brand.
It's a cop, but it's a tactical brand.
But I didn't want to be that guy that you can point out as a cop.
And so for me, I think because I try to be submissive to God and the Holy Spirit, I have no choice but to be outspoken about my faith.
And I think that's what this road needs more of, especially in this day and age where, you know, right is now wrong and wrong is now right.
You know, if we don't stand firm in our beliefs, then we will be the ones that are protesting in Cuba because Cuba has now become a communist country and stuff like that.
So yeah, that's why I'm so outspoken about my faith.
As a Christian, you know, God's always there for you, but sometimes things can feel downright overwhelming.
And it can be beneficial to speak with someone who shares your faith and values.
Online counseling from faithfulcounseling.com is there for you.
They connect you to professionals, Christian counselors, safe, private online environment.
Super convenient.
You can do it through the app, through video chat, texting, and I think just about any way you can communicate with somebody.
You think of it, they have it.
Smoke signals, not an actual guarantee, but they do have a lot of stuff.
And they have licensed counselors who are specialized in depression, stress, anxiety, and a crisis of faith issues too, which you don't always get with counselors if they're not, you know, Christians.
You don't want no atheist counselor.
There's financial aid available for anybody who qualifies.
Anything you share is confidential, just like with a regular counselor.
If you're not happy with your counselor for any reason, you can get a new one.
They're available worldwide.
You can do text, chat, phone, video.
You can start communicating in under 24 hours.
It's available on desktop, mobile, Android, iOS.
What?
Wow.
Wow.
Blackberry?
No, maybe not.
But if you go to faithfulcounseling.com/slash Babylon B, listeners will get 10% off their first month.
That's right.
So why not get started today?
Go to faithfulcounseling.com/slash Babylon B. Follow out the questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched up with a counselor that you're going to love.
Faithfulcounseling.com/slash Babylon B. B. You hear any complaints?
Like, you know, this guy made me pray with him.
He's beating me with the Bible now.
Right?
He's like jewels on fiction.
So I'm very strategic on how I do it.
I only pray with them when they can't leave.
What I mean by that is in the backseat of my car and they're handcuffed.
Really, not much.
What are you going to do?
Yeah.
And if you don't want me to pray with you, I just put on some Christian music.
Can't really do much about it.
Some good evangelism stress.
Evangelism tactics from a cop.
I like it.
But I've had people, I've had people come back, and there's a girl.
She was a young girl, and same thing with her.
She was, we were getting calls on her left and right.
And I prayed with her.
And she's, I saw her about a year ago, and she was all strung out on drugs.
She's no longer strung out on drugs.
And she will never forget that moment in time where I pray with her in the backseat and it's changed her life.
So you never know.
What were some of the negative interactions you had with cops when you were younger or the community had with cops when you were younger?
Yeah, so I was pulled over a few times.
One time I was talking on the cell phone.
Now, granted, I shouldn't have been on the cell phone.
I get it, whatever.
But the officers were like, you know, you need to get off the motherfucking phone, wipe the mother-finging smile off your face.
We'll pull you over and all this other stuff.
And like, these are some undercover guys.
So that was one of them.
And I was like, in my mind, I'm thinking, like, you could have easily just told me to just pull over or just pull me over.
Like, you don't have to cuss at me and all this other stuff.
The other one was I was driving through a neighborhood in Ranch Cucamonga, and it was a nicer neighborhood.
And I wasn't even in like a busted car done.
At the time, I was in a G35, which was at the time, was still a nicer car.
And this guy was following me around.
He was like, Hey, you need to get out of here.
You look suspicious, blah, And he was like, Hey, I'm an off-duty deputy.
And if you don't leave the area, I'll call some of my partners.
They'll come over here.
And I was like, seriously, like, I'm just driving around.
So that was one.
And then my uncle's been pulled over a few times, sat on the curb, handcuffed, said he fit the description of a robbery suspect.
And then when it was all said and done, they just let him go and didn't really give him an explanation.
So those were things growing up that I started to experience.
And I was like, man, like, why do these guys had to be like that?
Why can't you do a job but still be courteous in doing it?
And so now that I am a police officer, I've experienced that you can do both.
Yeah, is that I was afraid that's like got to be a tough thing.
Like I was, you know, when I was getting ready for your interview, one of the cases that I haven't seen a lot of analysis of was the Ferlando Castile shooting.
A lot of people don't do breakdowns of that one.
It feels so cut and dry when you see, like, yeah, you just shot the guy.
Yeah.
But there was information that he had, like, I guess the cop had, he fit the description of a different thief or a robber, some robbery guy, someone just committed armed robbery.
But you're in this situation where like you're going, this guy looks like he fits the description, but that just on its face sounds bad, just saying like, well, you're a black guy.
You look like this robber.
Yeah, you know, and I've, I've kind of seen both sides.
I've been that person that was the guy that was suspicious.
And it's, and to all the cops out there, if you're listening to this, or if you're, let's say you're not a cop, but you are, I support the thin blue line, understand, like, it's not an uncomfortable, I mean, it's not a comfortable feeling when people stop you because you're suspicious and you know, rightfully so, you're not suspicious doing anything you're doing.
And that happens all the time.
And so when that happens over and over and over again to you, you're going to start to feel a certain type of way when you feel like you're being targeted because you are black or Hispanic or whatever it is.
But on the flip side of that, man, like I have been the one that's detained somebody because they fit the description.
I kid you not, I was on a shooting probably like six months ago, and it was at a, it happened right in front of like a Wabbergrill.
And so we get there really quickly.
We talk to witnesses.
They're like, hey, the witnesses is a black guy.
He's driving a black car and he's wearing this or whatever.
So sure enough, I'm like right across the street at the 7-Eleven.
There's a black guy walking in wearing black clothing, driving a black car.
And no joke, I'm like, man, like this might actually be the freaking guy that did the shooting.
And so I go and talk to him.
But, and so as I'm talking to him, I play it down a little bit.
Hey, man, what's going on?
What you up to?
And he's like, oh man, I'm just like, he's looking at me kind of like all sketch.
And he's like, I'm just getting something to eat.
I'm like, all right, cool.
And so I like start talking.
I just kind of like, you know, I have the gift of gaps.
So I'm just talking about nonsense, just trying to stall.
And I'm like, hey, man, give me a picture of the suspect as soon as you have it because they had this head surveillance.
And so I was like, the guy was like, hey, man, can I leave?
I was like, you know, honestly, you can't.
And he was like, really?
Why not?
I was like, you're not going to believe me, but I need you to believe me is that there was a shooting that just happened a few minutes ago.
They described him as a black male driving a black car.
And here you are, black male driving a black car, fit the build.
And so I got to detain you.
And I was like, I can actually show you the call.
So you know I'm not BSing you.
So he was like, he would, you can tell he was mad, but I broke it down and explained to him.
And so he wasn't that frustrated.
So when they sent me the picture, it wasn't him.
And so I was like, hey, man, you're free to go, but I just want you to know, like, I'll show you the call.
And he believed me.
But I mean, just imagine on the receiving end of that is like you have nothing to do with nothing and you're being detained.
So I say that to say it does happen.
People fit the description in the wrong place and wrong time.
And a police officer has a job to do.
But that's why where we come in as police officers, you can do this job without having to be that somebody.
Like not having to cuss at somebody, telling them to put their hands in the FNA.
Like you can do this job without having to do all that all the time.
I speak kind of fast.
Sorry.
No, I'm trying to catch up.
I'm processing.
We're on a time crunch.
It's better if we can slam as much into a short amount of time as possible, man.
Yeah, I had crappy car discrimination.
I bought a car from my mom for $100, which I think she had bought for $300 or something.
This thing barely ran.
And there's this one town in Oregon.
Whenever I drove through it, they'd pull me over.
They just pulled over anybody with a crappy car, I think.
Well, you know what?
But there's a difference between racial profiling and criminal profiling.
Criminals fit a certain description.
They do certain things.
They cover their license plate.
And so there are things that I will profile for criminality.
Racial profiling is you're just profiling somebody because of the color of their skin, and that's wrong.
So criminal profiling is okay.
It's the racial profiling that gets you.
The crappy car is fine.
I don't care.
Depends on what kind of car.
I had a buddy who became a cop and then going right alongs with him.
And it was totally a thing you do.
The crappier a car looked, the more he'd be like running their plates.
I drove a 78 Buick and I put the bullet hole stickers on it.
And you'd see the cops in Chino pull up next to me in the next car.
And then they see the scrawny white high school kids.
And they're like, that's racial profiling.
That's racial profiling, man.
So should we defund the police?
Absolutely not.
I mean, I always use the analogy.
So I play college football.
And when I play college football, and I play Division I, so they spent a lot of money on us from getting us the best equipment to getting us the best trainers, the best coaches.
And they invested a lot of money into us as athletes so that way we can perform the best we could on Saturday.
Whether we won or lost, the whole goal was to win.
And so if you take that same concept, why we should be investing into an entity that is put in place to protect us?
Why would we want to take money out of an entity that is designed to essentially help you out if you need them?
And so when they started this whole defund the police movement, it didn't make any logical sense to me because I was like, why would you take money to an organization or a structure that you already think is struggling that you still need though?
Like it's not like you can just get rid of the police.
So if you need law enforcement, why would you take money and resources away from an entity that's already struggling?
So, no, I definitely don't agree with defund the police.
I think you actually need to refund them.
You've seen it happening in certain places because when you defund the police, police start to lack more training.
We already in certain places across the country, police don't get the training that they need.
So you start to take training away from them.
You start to take overtime that's needed to fill spots on the streets.
So there's no need to even have a discussion about whether or not we should fund or defund the police.
I mean, it's a no-brainer.
You've got to fund them all day.
Well, I guess because they probably think the whole system, like it's all systemically racist.
There's no redeeming it.
We have to tear the whole thing down and come up with some kind of community.
That's why I tell people, go live in another country and then tell me how that works out for you.
I mean, you can look at other countries right now where law enforcement is systematically corrupt.
Go to Mexico.
Go to, you know, China.
Go to certain places in Africa.
Law enforce, the entity of law enforcement is systematically corrupt.
It is an extension of the communist government.
So when you are pulled over by somebody out there, it's a lot different than being pulled over by somebody here in the United States.
And so, you know, it's always not real communism.
No.
No, no, right?
You know, it's so funny, but it's like, you know, everybody talks this big game while you're here, but go somewhere else and talk that same game at your, you know, whatever.
What about this argument that, you know, we've had other cops on the show, and there's one, I remember at least one said when it comes to the defund the police thing, he said there's a certain aspect there where there's a lot of things that police do, which, you know, they're spread thin, like dealing with homeless and things like that, where what if that was offloaded to other, you know, have somebody just specialize in that?
So the reallocations of different funds to different places.
I think there's definitely a place for that.
I actually.
Do you feel like you're spread thin on things that maybe you shouldn't be having to respond to as a cop?
Yes and no.
We go to barking dog calls.
Should we be going to barking dog calls?
Probably not.
You know what I mean?
But for the most part, you know.
You get drones to take care of that.
Yeah.
You know, and heavily armed.
I think that they do offload too much stuff with us sometimes, law enforcement.
I know, right?
I think they do offload too much problems on law enforcement at times.
But at the same time, like you really don't know what you have until you respond.
Like when somebody calls 911, you don't really know what you're dealing with until you get there.
So how do you know that this is a call that should have been, you know, saved for a social worker until you get there?
Or how do you know this was a call the social worker goes and they get there and they're like, no, this should have been a call for police.
So I think if we're trained to get there and then once we realize, and which is, I think we're starting to see law enforcement evolve into that is where we'll go on a call, we'll see like, hey, this isn't really something for us.
Now we can bring the resources here that will get them to help and then we can go do something else.
I think that's kind of a better solution as opposed to just getting rid of law enforcement that are responding to certain calls as opposed to having the wrong people respond to those calls.
Hey, you, are you enjoying this interview?
I know I am.
Oh, I sure am.
I'm actually probably sweating trying to think up new questions right now at this very moment.
But if you're enjoying it, you should become a Babylon B subscriber because the interviews are much longer.
Yes.
And we also have the most fun because the portion of the interview that does not go up here on YouTube publicly can be Googled.
So our guests kind of, you know, kick back a little bit and get a little looser.
They tell us what they really think.
And we always do our 10 questions, which for everybody and tends to be the funnest part of the show.
Yes.
So become Babylon B subscriber at BabylonB.com slash plans.
And you get the full interview show.
And you also get it a day early.
Go now.
So there's one of the big outrage things is, you know, there's these shootings that happen between police officers and, I mean, there's, you know, there's black individuals and white.
I mean, there's all the races that get shot.
But, you know, they have the court case and then a cop very often does not go to prison for murder.
And what are some of the complexities there?
But I mean, to me, it feels kind of obvious.
Like one of the risks of your job is that you might shoot somebody.
It's almost like if you're a dishwasher, one of the risks is you might break a ton of dishes one night on accident.
Now, that's, you know, you have to be way more careful and that's the cost of your job.
But like no one's going to go.
You came in premeditated and decided to break all those dishes because you hate the restaurant.
Maybe.
So what are the complexities of trying to get a cop charged with murder?
And is that fair or unfair?
I mean, should those laws be changed?
Are there special laws for police?
I've heard that argument.
It's a very, that's a very complex topic, but it's a good topic.
And the reason it's good is because, yeah, I'm giving you that's two points right now.
Two points.
Zero.
He hasn't said any of my life watches are good.
I'll give you extra points.
I'll give you extra credit.
You know, honestly, it is.
Participation trophy.
So that topic specifically is complex.
And the reason it's complex is because anytime an officer pulls a trigger or takes the life of another human being, you have to understand, okay, were they doing it in the capacity of their position within that law enforcement agency?
Were they trying to affect an arrest, overcome resistance, or prevent escape?
If you're trying to do one of those three things and you had a lawful reason to be there, then it's justifiable.
It may not always look pretty, but it's justifiable.
And that's based off of case law from Graham versus Connor.
And so a lot of these things that the public, the general public doesn't know.
And so you take in a situation that looks very, very bad, you know, perceptually, then it's like, man, this officer should be arrested for this, this, this, and that.
But if you knew the law and understood why he was there, then he has every reason to be there and do what he did.
And that's why he's going to get off.
The flip side of that is when officers do something that is corrupt or they do something that's shady, these officers are being prosecuted.
We just don't hear about it.
And so I always tell people, just because you don't hear about it or see about it, does that mean it doesn't exist?
Of course it exists.
You just aren't looking for it.
And so the media, I was a journalist major in college.
And one of the things I learned in journalism was that, you know, if it bleeds, it sells.
You know what I mean?
And so right now, the big topic is white officer shoots black man.
Oh, this is front news.
We can run with this.
You know, black police officer shoots white man.
Oh, nobody's going to really watch that.
So we don't really got to go, you know, pursue it any further.
And so that's just me addressing the elephant in the room is that, you know, cops are prosecuted all the time and they are doing jail time.
But the media is not going to go out there and run with all these big old things because at that moment in time, it's pretty much dead.
You know what I mean?
And so we, I mean, think about the George Floyd case with the conviction of Derek Chauvin.
I mean, we're still seeing a little bit of media coverage of it, but nowhere near what we were seeing before the trial.
You know, and so the lady that killed the suspect by accident when she pulled a gun out, thought it was a taser.
She's going to get prosecuted.
She's probably going to go to jail.
Will we hear about it?
Probably not because it's old news.
But so I think that, you know, a lot of times people are misconceived or misled when they believe that an officer should go to jail for something that was completely justified.
It just perceptually didn't look justified.
And I take the shooting that happened a few months ago in Wisconsin where the officer shot the guy that was going to his car to grab a knife and he shot him seven times in the back.
It looked terrible.
I think it was Jacob Blake.
It looked terrible.
But, you know, you find out why the officers were there.
They had a completely justified reason to be in there and shooting him in the back because he was grabbing a knife and he was already showed a propensity for violence.
They try to taser him multiple times.
So sorry about that.
Tangent.
No, that's the stuff that fascinates me is like breaking down the individual cases.
What is your take on the, and this is old, but the Philando Castile shooting?
Oh, that's three questions right there.
Is that a good question?
Not a good question.
That's an okay question.
Not a flag.
That's a difficult one.
I mean, what do you think about crime?
Five points.
Five points right there.
Pro or anti.
Five points.
Philando Castile man is a difficult one because the officer was giving him clear directions to do something.
He does it and he gets shot.
He says, don't go for the gun.
But the guy.
He's saying I'm telling him I have a gun.
Like he seems like he's, which seems like in those situations, I've heard of that because there's a term for it.
You get into like a loop.
Your Oodelo, your OODA loop.
And so that's what we're talking about the same thing.
But essentially, in that situation, you have an officer that gives him direction to do something.
But as he goes to do it, the officer's mind can't like process quick enough what it can't catch up to what he's saying to do.
Or even if he can't process, like, why is he still going for the game when he's been told three times not to go for the gun?
And maybe in his mind, he's just going, I got the gun.
Exactly.
And so, you know, it's one of those things that it's the cost of doing business.
And I hate to say this.
Some people are going to hear that and they're going to flip a wig.
But, you know, sometimes we as officers make mistakes.
They always say that you have a second and a half to receive something and a second and a half to react to something.
And that is so true.
I mean, if I have been an officer involved shooting, and when I got in that officer involved shooting, they asked me at the very end of it, how many times did I shoot?
And I told them I shot four times.
It wasn't until after the investigation was over that I found out I actually shot six times.
And that's because before my brain actually had a chance to process what I did, I had already did it.
And so when you tell a person, don't reach for something, don't reach for something, or you give a person instructions to do something, your body is going to naturally react to something before your brain actually processes what happened.
And I think there's a little bit of that that happened in the Philando Castile situation.
And so I think there, could that situation have been avoided?
I think it could have, but you have to go way before it actually end up being coming to that point where he's giving Philando instructions and stuff like that.
So I think that's where we can get better as officer is trying to make sure we're safer in our approach to things, slowing things down as opposed to rushing things.
I think we have a tendency to speed things up as officers.
And when we speed things up, that's where we find ourselves making the mistakes.
So when the opportunity prevails, slow it down.
If you're dealing with somebody that you know might be a felony suspect, you know, go stand by your car, wait for your responding officers to arrive, do a high-risk traffic stop, pull them out, bring them to you, slow it down.
Sometimes we like to speed it up, go up there.
We want to take them out, but that's where mistakes will be made.
So it's a mistake at the end of the day, but I hate to say sometimes mistakes have cost people their life.
And we, as officers, have a responsibility to be held to a higher standard and we can't afford to make those mistakes.
What's your favorite flavor of donut?
Oh, good question.
That is a 10-pointer.
Thank you.
10-pointer right there.
Krispy Kremes all day.
You got to go shopper shortcake with a cream fill inside.
He's just pandering.
I'm pandering.
I'm sorry.
Hey, we're going to move to our subscriber portion.
Really?
We're already there.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Hey, we can come back and do this again, too, for a longer discussion.
I would love to do that.
Let's absolutely do it.
I would love to do that.
I'm sorry I had to cut you off.
He told us he's going to save his very best cop story for the subscriber portion.
That means you better subscribe.
That means you better subscribe.
And this is going to be a really good, really just like Hollywood type.
Go subscribe.
Yeah, actually, you might actually hear something about me curving a bullet, but you only hear that if you go on the subscribe.
You do guncata?
Like, you're like, you know what?
We're not giving you a cut of any of the subscriptions.
Yeah, I expect 10%.
I'm just like, you were an insurance salesman.
I was.
So you know.
Okay.
I was.
He knows how to push it.
I was.
All right, here we go.
Doing it.
Coming up next for Babylon B subscribers.
What's like one of the scariest moments so far in your career as a cop?
There was a situation where, well, one was my officer involved shooting.
Cop stories.
Cop stories.
Give us.
You've teased it throughout.
Okay.
We have to know.
We're just going to sit here.
That was a crazy story, though.
You got to get that.
That was pretty good.
It's pretty good.
Did you ever question your calling as a cop?
Enjoying this hard-hitting interview.
Become a Babylon Bee subscriber to hear the rest of this conversation.
Go to BabylonB.com slash plans for full-length ad-free podcasts.
Kyle and Ethan would like to thank Seth Dylan for paying the bills, Adam Ford for creating their job, the other writers for tirelessly pitching headlines, the subscribers, and you, the listener.