The Mortal Kombat Of Abortion Ministry: The Jeff Durbin Interview
Editor-in-chief Kyle Mann and creative director Ethan Nicolle talk to Jeff Durbin, a Pastor and Elder of Apologia Church in Tempe, a hospital chaplain, outreach minister, and a popular speaker. He's a martial artist with 5 black belts, has played roles from Mortal Kombat and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and is known for sidewalk ministry and apologetics debates. The guys talk about martial arts, video games, ministry, and Jeff's crazy adoption story. Jeff co-hosts Apologia Radio and Apologia TV, both found at Apologia Studios, and you can find Apologia's outreach resources for pro-life ministry at End Abortion Now. Pre-order the new Babylon Bee Best-Of Coffee Table Book coming in 2020! Get a Sneak Peak! Topics Discussed Martial arts Sidwalk ministry outside places where abortion takes place We get Jeff's thoughts on Abolitionism vs Pro-life activism An abortion doctor in Phoenix pulled out a gun to threaten Jeff's group The arcades being the hangout spots Jeff's video game roles Mortal Kombat: The Live Tour Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles MTV's The Final Fu Subscriber Portion (Begins at 00:53:17) Real life self-defence stories Carman's music inspires Jeff's friend Behind the scenes with apologist James White What's the deal with the coogi sweaters? Giving knives to children Jeff adopted a child who had a medical condition saved from abortion and then God totally healed him. Also mentioned on the podcast: The King James Only Controversy by James White. You need to check out this sweet promo reel of Jeff Durbin's martial arts on display in MTV's The Final Fu and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. The entire interview is available for Babylon Bee subscribers only… Become a paid subscriber at https://babylonbee.com/plans
I just have to say that I object strenuously to your use of the word hilarious.
Hard-hitting questions.
What do you think about feminism?
Do you like it?
Taking you to the cutting edge of truth.
Yeah, well, Last Jedi is one of the worst movies ever made, and it was very clear that Brian Johnson doesn't like Star Wars.
Kyle pulls no punches.
I'm going to ask how you're able to sleep at night.
Ethan brings bone-shattering common sense from the top rope.
Finally, how double dare you?
This is the Babylon B interview show.
All right, everyone.
Well, we are here holed up in the Babylon B offices, quarantining ourselves so as not to spread coronavirus.
And we're going to have Pastor Jeff Durbin join us, but because of our quarantine, we told him to stay in Arizona and he's joining us instead over the airwaves.
And we don't think we can transmit coronavirus that way.
So maybe.
Maybe.
As far as we know.
We're not sure.
As far as we know.
It's a brave new world we live in.
Yeah.
So Jeff is a pastor and elder of Apologia Church.
And you might have seen him on Facebook.
This is where I saw him on videos.
On the Facebooks.
On the Facebooks doing martial arts outside of abortion clinics.
Yeah.
Jumping out of bushes and brownhouse kicking abortionists.
It's the most effective form of ministry these days.
Punching abortion doctors in their ugly faces.
Wow.
We did have one recently pull a gun on one of our people.
So tell us martial arts may be required.
Can we hear that story?
Yeah.
Do you have any other cool stories you want to tell us?
We do.
I have so many stories.
Let's talk.
That's what we like.
We just like to ask our guests, hey, got any cool stories?
And then we just sit back.
Yeah, I love doing like theology, of course, and all the episodes.
I think it's really important.
But I think one of the things that makes podcasts in particular and radio shows interesting is story time.
When people talk about stories, it makes it very interesting.
Especially when it's like drag queens reading stories.
My favorite.
Yeah, well, okay.
Sorry, sorry.
No, it's okay.
Continue.
So, all right.
So, the recent thing that happened with Dr. Ronald Eunice, he is an abortion doctor in, oh, goodness, technically, Phoenix, I guess.
So, it's interesting.
This guy is interesting because he has a legitimate physician's practice not far down the road from the place where he's murdering children.
So, he's helping to care for human beings in the one hand.
In the other hand, he goes and he murders children, brags about the fact that he'll pull up in different cars all the time.
I think the last time Pastor Zach saw him, or our team was out there, he pulled up in a new vehicle and rolled down his car as I rolled down the window and was like, It seems like every time I see you guys, I have a different car.
And, you know, sort of bragging about it.
So, he's an interesting character.
And so, he was at Phoenix KCA Women's Center, it's called.
And, you know, we have, there's a number of our people out there and other believers we work with outside that facility.
We've saved lots of children from there.
And he was pulling out one day.
And Elvis, the guy's name is Elvis.
He has, we always tell everyone to wear their GoPro cameras.
He has his camera on his chest, and the guy's pulling out.
And so Elvis is standing there trying to talk into his window to engage him.
And Dr. Ronald Eunice pulls out a pretty large handgun and points it straight at Elvis.
And the nice thing was, is obviously all this was witnessed by the people who were standing there, but also it was on camera.
So that there was a Thursday, I believe.
That day, Elvis and I think others from the team go to the Phoenix Police Department to file an official report to give the evidence and all the rest, and nothing happened.
I mean, I mean, it's amazing because, I mean, can you imagine the news stories, not just in Arizona, but across the country?
If you would have pro-life, quote, protesters outside of an abortion facility and they pulled a gun on an abortionist, it would be the talk of the town.
And I don't think it'd be but a matter of minutes before there was a response.
And, you know, I mean, if the people had left with the gun, we'd probably have the SWAT team at our houses.
So, yeah, he pulls the gun.
The report is filed.
Nothing happens.
No investigations going on of any significant, nothing.
No one's contacted.
There's nothing.
And so about a week goes by and we're like, well, what's going on?
I mean, this guy, we've got him on video.
We've got the evidence.
We've got witnesses.
And they're not moving at all.
So we decided, you know what?
The best thing for us to do is to get the community in on this because they're not going to expose it.
The police department's not going to.
And so we got the team, the video team and our crew out there on the next Thursday, and we put mics on everyone.
And what we're planning on doing was basically filming us there when Dr. Ronald Eunice showed up, us contacting the police department to let them know the man that pulled the weapon is now here.
Please come and respond and do something about this.
And so we film the whole thing.
Dr. Ronald Eunice pulls up and in his beautiful car and he goes inside.
We film ourselves calling the Phoenix Police Department and nothing.
They don't respond quickly.
They're not showing up.
And so what people can't see in the videos online, but people can't see in the video because we didn't actually put this part in is that they didn't respond.
We had to actually chase down a police car that was going a different direction about a block away or so.
And so that's how we got the police to respond is we just waved this cop car down that was going a different direction.
And he thought something was going on in the gas station parking lot we were waving him down at.
And so he pulls in.
We've got the whole thing filmed, our conversation.
We show them the video, show them the pictures, the stills.
They go inside, they investigate Dr. Rollin Eunice.
He says, no, I don't even bring a gun with me to the facility.
And they come out and they're like, yeah, we can't really tell it's a gun.
And so we're like, well, there's witnesses.
We got the video.
Here's the pictures.
What do you mean you can't?
I mean, how is that not a gun?
And so I say to him, it's in the video.
And, you know, I'm doing my best to be as gracious as possible to these law enforcement officials that are obviously not helping us.
And something's going on.
There's some sort of bias there.
I say to the officers, you know, if you can't tell that that's a gun, you need to consider a different career choice.
And so they leave.
They do nothing.
And so we've got an official report on file with all the evidence, the witnesses.
We've got police showing up.
Now they're seeing the video themselves on the spot and nothing.
So this is amazing in the providence of God.
I love a place called Shake Shack.
I don't know if you guys have Shake Shacks where you're at.
Everybody.
Yeah, we do.
I think it's amazing.
And the other pastors and my family are always making fun of me because I'm always, they're like, what do you want to eat?
I'm like, how about Shake Shack?
Does that sound good to you guys again today?
So I'm at the abortion mill.
Whole thing's over with.
They're not going to do anything.
And so the team's there.
I'm like, you know, everyone's been out here for a long time.
I want to buy everybody lunch.
And so I said, what do you guys think about going to lunch?
They're like, yeah, great.
I said, hey, how about Shake Shack?
And everyone's, you know, kind of giggling.
They're like, oh, sure, we'll go to Shake Shack.
Now, mind you, this Shake Shack is not even near the KCA Women's Center.
It's a drive.
And so we all get in our cars and we drive to the Shake Shack that's, like I said, significantly farther away than we ought to go for lunch.
And it just turns out in the providence of God, as we walk into the Shake Shack, it's in Phoenix, that it seems like it was like the Phoenix Police Officer Shake Shack Convention.
All these cops are there, uniformed police officers, Phoenix PD, same enforcement unit and everything.
And they're all there.
You got detectives there in plain clothes with guns on and everything.
It was just epic.
I mean, we're trying to engage a Phoenix police department.
Now, here they're there, and it's just they're all over.
So somebody suggested, let's film ourselves talking to these police officers.
Let's not give them any context.
Let's just show them the video and ask them, what do you think that is?
And so it was perfect.
So we got all this on camera.
We film ourselves talking to the Phoenix PD detectives, the uniformed officers.
And it was instant.
All of them, as soon as they see it, they go, it looks like a gun.
Yeah, that's a gun.
And so we put this video together, a short video.
We drop it Friday morning at I think at 9 a.m.
We dropped it.
Mind you, nothing's still happening with Phoenix PD.
They're not responding.
And they basically said no.
And so we dropped the video at 9 a.m.
By noon, by noon, I've been getting phone calls from every news agency in the Phoenix area, all of them, literally all the major agencies, every one of them.
And we also noticed that the Phoenix Police Department on their official Facebook page gave a public notice that they were going to be arresting Dr. Ronald Eunice.
And it took about three hours.
And it was because we put the video up and the community responded.
We don't know how many phone calls they received, but it was a lot.
And so they responded within three hours.
They arrested Dr. Ronald Eunice for pulling the weapon.
I don't really know what the current status of all that is right now.
But yeah, that was an incident outside the abortion facility.
It's interesting because outside the abortion facility for years now, we've had people try to hit us with their cars.
That's a fairly common practice.
People will cut in really, really tight on purpose to try to get onto the curb to hit us.
We've had people literally jump the curb and try to hit us.
And we've had people throw things at us.
We've had people come out and beat one of the other brothers that was out there up.
They knocked him out and they kept beating him up while he was passed out.
We've had just every nasty insult come out of the window as you're out there.
It'll happen the whole time you're out there.
And oh, yeah, it's amazing.
One week before Dr. Ronald Eunice pulled the gun, our team was out in Tempe, and some random guy that dropped a girl off, he pulled a gun out.
And unfortunately, our guy didn't have his GoPro on that day, so nobody was able to see that one.
So it can be definitely a very dangerous and hostile.
Hey, Jeff.
Do you think you're asking for it, though, by dressing up as Johnny Cage from Mortal Kombat?
Dressing up.
Because honestly, I'd want to have some kind of personal protection of it.
Do you bring nunchucks or anything?
Are you prepared for danger?
Well, I'm personally prepared because of my training.
But we have a rule.
We don't actually maintain this rule always in evangelism and street ministry.
But we have a rule with regards to the abortion mill ministry where we don't bring any weapons.
We don't bring a gun.
We're legally allowed to have weapons to defend ourselves, but we don't have a gun out there.
And the reason for that is we don't want anybody to get the wrong impression.
Or we know, and I'm telling you, this is no exaggeration.
Of all the years that we've done this, we have experienced so many instances of the police actually coordinating with Planned Parenthood and the abortion facilities, trying to get us arrested, trying to get us in trouble.
We actually, we're going to release this probably soon.
We have some of the body cam footage of the police officers who went into Planned Parenthood once.
This is Freedom of Information Act.
I mean, it's amazing that they didn't turn their body cameras off for this, but they were back there basically working with them saying, well, like, what can we use against them?
Do you have this?
Oh, shoot.
Like, they were trying to, you know, it's a tough thing.
So we know if we bring weapons to the abortion facility, that they might try to use it against us and lie.
So we don't do it there.
But I will say that at church, when I'm preaching, I'm packing.
There's probably about 25 members of Apologia Church that are carrying guns every service.
And generally speaking, if we're going out to do evangelism, there's probably somebody from Apologia that's armed.
So mathematically speaking, that means that there's probably a mass shooting at your church every week.
Well, I don't know what that means, but I think the more guns that there are, the more mass shootings are from California.
So we just assume that we assume if there's guns, they just start shooting.
Everyone's shooting.
It's the Wild, Wild West out here.
No, isn't it interesting that in a place with the kind of gun freedom that we have in Arizona, you're not seeing the kinds of mass shootings because, well, I mean, if you consider it, if you walk into a movie theater in Arizona, there's probably a lot of people in there carrying.
So probably a bad place to try to shoot people up because you're going to get shot back at.
Maybe the guns in those areas are homeschooled, so they're not as free-spirited like the guns out in California.
That's what it is.
By themselves.
Those are all public.
Yeah.
Yeah, Jeff, we'd appreciate it if you'd stop using the term abortion mill.
Yeah.
We prefer women's health clinic.
Yeah.
The reproductive rights center.
Well, you are from California, so I can understand why you want that language.
It makes perfect sense to me that the police would have no issue.
You tell them an abortion doctor has a tool of death and he aimed at somebody.
It's like, that's his whole job.
It's not surprising.
He's not doing what he does.
Yeah, well, that's what he does.
Exactly.
Like a skin doctor pulled a scalpel on me.
This is what he has.
He cuts people's faces open.
Well, he is good at it.
So, I mean, right.
Dark.
It is a dark thing.
And, you know, I mean, of all the years of ministry that we've, all the years we've been doing ministry in all the very hard places, I mean, we have regular ministry at Apologia Church.
We have specific local outreach to get the gospel in the public square on a regular basis.
So we go to the strip clubs.
We go to the abortion mills.
We go to ASU.
We go to downtown Phoenix.
We are constantly, we're going to the Mormon wards on the weekends to go engage with them.
We're always out doing things.
And that's tough ministry.
The strip club's hard ministry for our team.
The Mormon temples, hard ministry for our team.
You know, people don't like you being there.
They get upset, but God saves people, and it's incredible.
But the hardest ministry we've ever done, without question, is abortion mill ministry.
And it sort of starts with the emotional aspect that's really difficult.
So you go, and generally speaking, we sort of expect this is believers who feel challenged to go out and save lives and preach the gospel out there, ready for this.
The first time they come out, generally they're filled with tears just because it hits you.
Like now it has flesh on it, right?
It's all hypotheticals and theory beforehand.
You know what the truth of God is.
You know what God says in his word.
You know what's going on in there, but it's out there.
And then when you're standing there on the sidewalk and you're watching the mothers and fathers, you know, carrying their children in there to be killed, all of a sudden it hits you.
And so it's, you know, it's very trying emotionally.
It's very, very hard.
And I don't think there's ever a time where you can say, I'm no longer going to cry out here because it'll hit you.
There's days where you'll see 30 people going in and it really weighs on you.
And there's also the aspects of it that you are vilified, hated.
You got the death scorts out there.
That's their Planned Parenthood escorts that volunteer their time to go out there and to comfort the women as they go in there to kill their children.
And so that'll be there, and they are just nasty.
They'll lie about you.
They'll contact the police and lie about what you've been doing.
I mean, they're just yelling things, nasty things back at you.
They'll never really want to engage in an actual conversation with you because their argument can't be sustained, but it's nasty.
Then the community's driving by, you know, people are telling you you're number one, you know, 10 times a day and yelling out the window, screaming at you, pulling the car over to yell at you.
So, I mean, it's a hard, hard ministry.
It is violent, not from us, but it's ugly, and you're going to get stepped on out there.
But, I mean, as a result of just from us, this is just my own experience.
We're not the thing here.
I mean, there's people that are veterans have been doing this for much longer that I look up to as heroes.
But just since Apologia Church has been doing this, we've saved hundreds of children at our local mills, just one church.
And then since we started end abortion now and we equip other churches and train them and give them resources, all this for free, now we have nearly 500 churches that have signed up, gotten trained.
Many of those churches go out regularly, and there have been thousands and thousands of children saved.
So while it's the ugliest and darkest ministry I've ever, ever been involved in, it is also the most rewarding and powerful ministry I've ever been able to participate in.
Hey, Jeff, do you have a uterus?
I do not have a uterus.
No.
Well, then we don't really care.
Yeah.
What is the attitude?
I know there's kind of some controversy in this.
And, you know, you have people that consider themselves abolitionists versus a more moderate pro-life position.
What do you see on the streets?
What is the attitude of women that are going in there?
Because I know that a lot of times we kind of see it as, well, they're deceived or they're just in this desperate place.
And if their situation had been a little different, they wouldn't have done it.
And then you have kind of the other side will say, well, no, it's, you know, they know exactly what they're doing.
And I'm wondering kind of what your take is on that.
Yeah, that's an important question.
I think it's probably actually, I'm glad you asked it because if we're going to face this as Christians and if it's going to be about the gospel, if we're going to stand on scripture as a response, if we're not going to play neutrality, like generally the pro-life industry, and I'm very specific about that.
Pro-life is our position.
The Christians own that position because we are for life.
But there's a pro-life industry, a pro-life lobby, a pro-life business operation that plays neutrality, refuses to make it about scripture, explicitly says we are not a Christian organization.
Matter of fact, the largest pro-life organization on the planet, National Right to Life, has explicitly told us they're not a Christian organization.
They won't call it murder.
They're not working for its immediate criminalization, all those things.
So the question you're asking is vital if we're going to ever actually accomplish anything as Christians in this area for the glory of God and in terms of gospel-centered approaches.
They call it, the pro-life industry and lobby will call it.
They'll say that she's a victim.
So I started a hashtag a long time ago, hashtag not a victim.
And all it was was just taking videos of stuff that was happening at the abortion mill, women going inside, calling out to us, admitting they're murdering their child, saying, I can kill my child if I want to.
Other videos of pro-choicers doing videos, bragging about the fact that they've killed their babies, saying things like murdering my baby is delicious, those sorts of things.
So I created a hashtag to try to get people to start coordinating and just doing more and more piling up.
Now there's a website called Not a Victim.
It's not ours, but someone did that.
And it's just to sort of illustrate what takes place outside the abortion mill.
What the pro-choicers will try to say about this in terms of this is just a woman whose life is hard.
She's got her whole life ahead of her, her future.
She's a victim to the child within her, you know, that sort of picture, or even the pro-life lobby and industry that will explicitly say she's a victim, and so is the baby.
So the baby's a victim, and so is the mother who brings the baby inside to be dismembered.
So they'll say she's a victim.
But if you go out there, if you're on this, if you're on the sidelines, you're talking to these women, they'll tell you, I know it's my baby.
I know it's a baby.
I think I have a right to kill my baby if I want.
I don't want to care for this child, so I'm killing it.
We did a video at a pro-choice march outside the Phoenix Capitol last year.
And I interviewed these, you know, three college-age girls, and the video is up online.
So I'm talking to them, and I'm just letting them sort of tell their story.
And I'm being very gracious and respectful to them, but I want them to sort of say, this is our position.
And so I'm sort of pressing them and pressing them on their position for consistency.
And I'm talking about the biology and what God says about it.
I'm talking about murdering the child.
And so these women, two of the three are trying really hard not to just come out and say it.
Like, yes, we're murdering our children.
That's what we're for.
And finally, I get to the end of that conversation.
We've taken down all the barriers.
Now you just got to come up and meet up front with it.
And so the two girls, when I finally ask it, I say, so you are arguing that you should be able to murder your child.
And the two girls are still like, well, and then finally, the one girl just comes out and says it.
She says, yes, yeah, yeah, that's that's what we're here for.
That's, we believe that's our right.
And yes.
And so not a victim.
And here's, here's what's critical.
Boys, if, if we face, it's interesting.
If you face this issue and you say, from a non-biblical perspective, you're not standing on scripture, you're avoiding the biblical worldview.
You're saying, you know, let's take the position of neutrality.
And you say, look, the issue of abortion is she's a victim.
Let's say you're generally pro-life, pro-life lobby, industry, that whole realm.
And you say, look, we want to end abortion.
We don't want it to happen anymore.
And we think it is killing a human being.
They'll be very cautious not to use the word murder.
But they'll say things like, you know, we think the mom's a victim.
Well, my argument is, well, you've now gutted any possibility of being able to actually criminalize this or end this, because here's the deal.
You can't legislate a preference.
And if she's not guilty of a criminal act, if abortion isn't murder, and if the mom isn't guilty, if she's a victim, then there's nothing to legislate against.
You can't legislate against something that's just simply a preference.
You legislate on moral issues.
And if we gut the biblical framework of saying murdering your child is a crime, then we can't legislate against it or do really anything effective against it, which is, by the way, why I think we're seeing 50 years of 62 plus million babies with the neutral pro-life lobby approaching this from a non-biblical perspective, because there's a pursuit of the ending of abortion.
It looks something like this.
They'll say, here's a victory.
They'll raise millions of dollars and they'll say, well, here's a victory we have.
What's the victory?
They'll say, well, the abortionist is no longer allowed to kill a child using forceps.
Now they're only allowed to use suction.
And they'll call it a victory.
And they'll tell their followers and they'll tell the people who have donated, we've had a victory.
No longer death through forceps and dismemberment that way.
It's only through suction.
And my challenge to brothers and sisters is, guys, think about this.
Would we ever accept if we turn the clock back and we're standing outside of Auschwitz?
Would we ever accept it as a victory if we said, hey, we've been able to legislate against the Nazis being able to beat Jews to death?
Now they can only gas them.
Like victory.
We would say, no, that's not a victory because in principle, we know what's really wrong here.
And so when you ask those questions, the issue is very, it's a vital issue.
Is the woman who, with premeditation, brings her child into be killed by an assassin, she's killing her child in an unjustified manner.
Is that murder and is she guilty?
From a biblical worldview perspective, you'd have to say yes.
Now, do we want her to know Jesus?
Yes.
Do we want her to know the grace of God?
Yes.
I have women at Apologia Church that have had a number of abortions and they're saved.
They're in Christ.
They're not condemned.
We want all women who have killed their children to know the grace of God and Jesus.
However, in terms of the issue of justice, we have to actually ask the question: what is a consistent biblical worldview and judicial, what's a consistent judicial response to the issue of abortion that will actually end the injustice of abortion?
And if we're saying the woman is a victim like the baby, then we're never going to be able to actually end it.
Yeah, the weird thing with being the woman being a victim, the man is completely left out of the equation now, too.
What is she a victim of?
Like, she's just kind of this arbitrary victim of reality, or what is she a victim of?
Patriarchy.
The patriarchy.
The patriarchy.
Yes.
Yes.
But the patriarchy isn't getting like the guy who isn't held accountable, whoever the guy is.
Right.
And that's another thing.
Yeah, I'll just say briefly: I'm standing outside of an abortion mill, and you watch those guys who are bringing their women inside there.
Watch them, talk to them.
See the callousness.
See the fact that they know.
They know what they're doing.
And, you know, the saddest thing is when you see a man who actually stands outside the abortion mill and he's in tears and he's just bawling his eyes out, begging the woman not to kill their child.
That's always so hard to deal with, but it's rare.
It's rare to see something like that.
But it does happen.
And it's difficult to see that because you'll even see the man pleading for the life of his child.
And the woman knows.
She knows.
Because here's the father of the child saying, please don't kill my child.
And she's saying, I'm going through with it anyways.
She's not a victim.
She knows.
And that sounds so harsh, but it just shows, I think, guys, and this is what I think needs to be communicated.
We've become calloused on this issue.
And I think we've allowed the culture to change our minds about it, even as Christians, even as much as we say it's murder, it can't be done.
We're still impacted by how the culture has taught us on this issue.
And so, you know, look at the violent response we'll have today.
And it's appropriate.
God's word says that man stealing and enslavement is actually worthy of capital punishment.
And that was like his verbalized response to that issue is it's so wicked.
It's so evil.
This is what we should, this is how you should see it.
Now, we've got this in our past.
You've got Americans, even people who profess to be Christians, who engaged in man-stealing and enslaving.
Now, that's so far behind us now.
And the history books, you know, tell us that story and we see it for what it is.
So we've got the Bible and history convincing us this was so wicked.
And we think about it just as yuck.
And yes, it's wicked.
It's a horrible, evil crime against humanity.
How disgusting?
Because it's so far behind us.
But we respond and it's revolting to us.
However, in this case, with the issue of abortion, we've been so taught by our culture, even as Christians, even as people who believe it's murder, that we don't have the same response in terms of, no, that should never be allowed.
It is a crime.
It is deplorable.
It is disgusting.
We should war against it.
And of course, those slave owners who engaged in that were guilty of crimes.
And of course, they should have been punished.
And that's because it's so far behind us.
And we all agree, how wicked is that?
But it's amazing.
Today, you can even ask the common believer.
You can say, you believe it's murder?
Yeah, I believe it's murder.
Well, if we ever get to the place where it's ended, should the mother who kills her child be, should it be a crime?
And you'll have people be like, well, no.
I mean, I don't think she should be punished.
But she's the one carrying the child in to be dismembered.
She's paying the assassin.
A health professional.
Health professional.
Again, I can't keep correcting you.
No, and that's the thing.
And, brother, you're saying it right because that's the deal.
When I said that we're being taught by the culture, there it is.
It's calling them health centers.
It's calling it health care.
And that's how we've even had our minds shifted and changed because that's how they're winning the argument.
You got to think that's the greatest marketing ploy of the last 50 years.
Yeah.
Is that when they decided to call that healthcare?
That's right.
It's very important.
Well, the hard thing about it is it does feel like they feel like they've cornered the market on compassion for women.
And it does feel like we have this divide where we're, I fear sacrificing compassion for women for complete compassion for the unborn.
And even while saying that, like that sounds wrong coming out of my mouth, but like the hard part is that the woman is standing in front of you.
That's the part of that that I sympathize with, even though I completely am horrified by abortion.
It's so hard to find those arguments that come at it from that direction.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, think about it in this context, too, is try to just create a contrast where people go, okay, no, I agree with that.
As Christians, do we want the guy who's engaged in sex trafficking?
Say he's, you know, he's enslaved some women.
He's involved in sex trafficking.
What's the Christian response?
Do I want the man to know Jesus?
Yes.
I want him to know the grace of God and be saved.
I do.
I want him to know Jesus.
I want him to experience a life that I have.
I'm guilty before God.
I deserve hell just as much as him.
Of course I want him to know Jesus.
But do I also want him to be punished?
Do I want justice?
Yeah.
Yeah, I want both.
And so the issue of abortion, we have to see in the same light.
You have to ask ourselves, do we believe abortion is a sin and a crime?
And I think the answer is, yeah, murder should be a crime.
And so we have to look at this in a different way and say, look, okay, she's guilty.
The mom is guilty of a sin and a crime.
And so we should see it as a crime, but I still want her to know Jesus.
You know, it's interesting, too, because you mentioned before, you know, you don't have a uterus, so you can't talk about this.
Watch that.
Agreed.
We don't do that with other things because it's wild how they've been able to sort of like shift it.
So like imagine for a second, a woman, she finds out down the street from her house.
This actually happened down the street from my house about a mile and a half away, actually.
I saw the SWAT team taking this house down.
It was a sex trafficking house.
And imagine that my woman, my neighbor's a woman.
She finds out about it.
And she's like, can you believe that?
Oh, my goodness.
I hope the cops, you know, I hope they throw the book at them.
I hope they get criminalized and all the rest.
Imagine if I said to her, well, ma'am, you don't have a penis.
And she's, whatever do you mean?
Well, you don't have a penis.
So you can't really talk about what he wants to do with his body.
I mean, it's his body, his choice.
He can do what he wants to those women because it's his body.
And you don't have a penis.
You can't talk about sex trafficking.
You're not the one, you know, if they want to buy sex, let them buy sex.
I mean, and she's like, no, no, what?
Wait a second.
You're forgetting about the victims here.
Now, everyone realizes, of course, of course.
But in this situation, we've gotten to the place where we can't even see through that.
But all you have to do is provide the contrast and everyone should be able to see it.
So what's stopping them?
My answer is, well, we know from scripture, the issue for all of us is sin.
It's rebellion against God.
And we need the light of God through the gospel and by God's spirit to open our eyes to the truth.
So, I think the real issue with the issue of abortion is not winning this by mere neutral argumentation or biological argumentation because that's never going to convince somebody for their heart to change.
Only God can do that through God's truth.
It's the law and the gospel.
You bring the law of God to bear so that it can cause them to flee to Christ.
And it's interesting, guys.
There's videos we have up.
I don't even know how many we have up on this issue.
You'll bring up the issue of biology outside of an abortion mill with the college student on the street, and you'll demonstrate without question: this is a human being from conception, unique DNA.
The only difference between where they're at and where you're at today is a difference of degree, size, level of development, environment, degree of dependence.
You can't kill human beings for those reasons.
It's a human being.
And they'll just tell you, yeah, I know it's a human being, but I think we should still be able to kill them.
Yeah, that's what makes this whole thing so impossible.
It's like you, the whole idea that ideas have consequences and you can't simultaneously hold a view that life is precious and then also, except for in this instance, just like completely go backwards on it.
Like that doesn't compute with our culture now.
Like there's a cultural shift where we just don't add, we don't do that math problem.
We just kind of ignore it.
Those who hate me love death, God says.
So if we hate God, and our culture largely does, if we hate God, we love death.
And that's what we get.
And we get the death of the family.
We get our own personal deaths.
You talk about all the ways that death manifests itself in a fallen, dead culture.
And then, of course, you've got the love of death, the love of the death of the pre-born.
Our culture is seeped in death right now.
Well, speaking of loving death, let's shift to you being involved in Mortal Kombat.
Yes.
What would you like to say?
How'd you like that?
We're going to get to the real issues.
Okay, the real issues.
Okay, so this glorifying murder.
Yeah, well, so I was, so I was born in 78, and so the 90s, those were my like teenage years, video game years.
And when Mortal Kombat came out, guys, I don't know how old you guys are, but I remember going to the arcade and you'd be on a line for the Mortal Kombat machine, and you'd put your quarter up on the screen to show I'm up next.
And, you know, you had, you got to play around, die, and then you'd get back in the line again to do it again.
And so I was there for Mortal Kombat Part 1, part two's release, and all the guys that were a part of part one and part two, the actual characters in the game, were friends of mine.
And so they were actually on my karate team.
So these were like buddies of mine.
And actually, Shang Sun from the video game from part two, his name is Philip.
He actually is a doctor and became a doctor because he wanted to be a Christian missionary doctor.
So he was a demon sorcerer in Mortal Kombat 2, a Christian missionary.
Wait, so those are all.
I always thought that those were all like I thought they were made in Japan or something.
No, no, those are real dudes.
Yeah.
That's an American game?
Yeah.
Well, yeah, that's right.
So Mortal Kombat, when it first came out, I mean, they straight up green for part one, they green screened it.
So me, like I said, my friend like Daniel Pacina, he played, which one was he?
So he was Scorpion and Johnny Cage in part one.
Then same, they use the same cast of characters and some more guys for part two.
So yeah, that was a super popular game.
And then in 1996, what was the name?
David Fischoff Productions, who like produced like the Beatles tour and like just a bunch of like big heavy hitters, they announced they were going to do the Mortal Kombat live tour across the United States.
And they auditioned tens of thousands of people for this thing.
But all of sort of my teammates and friends from National Competition of Martial Arts, they went and auditioned and they all got the roles for that.
But I was still in high school at the time.
And so I couldn't really be in Mortal Kombat the Live Tour because I was finishing high school.
And then high school was almost up.
I went to a tournament.
It was the Boston Nationals.
And so I flew to Boston.
And how it happened was actually interesting.
I was competing in the daytime division.
I go up, I perform my thing.
And as I'm walking out of the ring, I'm still like gasping for air, covered in sweat.
And this guy walks up to me and he says, hey, what size pants do you wear?
And I was like, people ask me that often.
Yeah.
I was like, say, what?
Well, I'm like gasping.
You know, I was like, what do you, what?
He's like, you're in-seam size.
Like, what's your in-seam size?
I was like, who are you?
What?
And he said, I'm with David Fischoff Productions.
We produce Mortal Kombat the Live Tour.
We know who you are.
We'd like you to play Johnny Cage in the live tour, the world tour.
And it was perfect because I was finishing high school, so I could say yes now to it.
And so I agreed to do it and I did the world tour.
I played Johnny Cage, Night Wolf, and Baraka for the World Tour.
And yeah.
And so that's how I got involved in that.
Crazy that we had a president named after a Mortal Kombat character.
What?
Baraka.
Oh, I got it.
Barack Obama.
Yeah, that's right.
That's how you say it in Period from like Alabama.
Barack Obama.
Barack.
Nice.
Sorry.
I haven't let Kyle ask a question for a while.
I don't even know.
I mean, where do you play?
You weren't allowed to play Mortal Kombat.
Well, you got your own arcades, and I'm like, those actually existed.
They did.
He's a little young.
I'm too young.
I'm two years younger than you.
Like when they were putting the quarter on the machine and Stranger Things.
I did not.
Never put quarter name.
No, that wasn't enough.
I was too young.
I walked probably a little over a mile to get to the 7-Eleven, and they always said they just had one game, and it was final fight for the longest time.
Oh, final fight.
Yeah.
And I love those beat-em-up games.
I mean, we would go to like the hockey rink to go ice skating or whatever, and they had like three cabinets there.
You know, they had a Samurai Showdown and Street Fighter 2 and the Geo games.
So I've seen that, but I'm not seeing like the, let's go after school, we're all going to ride our bikes over to the arcade.
I thought that was made up by Stranger.
No, that's where you, that's definitely where you hung.
No, it's true.
Like nowadays, like you'll have places that have arcades now and no one pays any mind to them, plus coronavirus, so ew.
But like, you know, that's where you, that is where you hung out.
Like everyone went there to hang out with friends, to get into fights, to meet girls.
Like that's where, that's where, that's where, that's what I did, but I wasn't a believer.
So yeah, that's what, that's what you did.
And that was just, that was in just the 90s.
So you're like living large, hanging with beautiful people in the Mortal Kombat.
Making lots of money.
Mortal Kombat lifestyle.
Just living a pool of hot tubs full of blood.
Yeah.
Hot tubs full of blood.
That's what you do.
That's what you do in Mortal Kombat.
Yeah.
And so then ripping out spines left and right.
So then when did Jesus perform his mortality on you?
How did he get through all that?
So let's see.
Because you were a ninja turtle also.
I was.
Yeah.
When did you finish him?
No, this, you guys, you're good at this.
That's excellent.
Faith tality.
Faith.
That's awesome.
So I tend to, my wife and I have a disagreement about this, to not know if my, you know, what happened, what happened early on was.
We didn't want to cause any issues.
No, yeah.
We're just questioning whether my initial profession of faith was a genuine conversion.
I don't know.
It's doubtful.
But after I went into a drug and alcohol addiction, God just broke, shattered my life and brought me back to the scriptures.
And I began to read the scriptures.
Really, it seemed like I was like finally seeing the message of Jesus, the call to come and to die and to calculate the cost to come to him.
And I saw my life.
I saw what I was professing to believe, but then what I was actually doing and how I was living and got opened my eyes to the truth.
And so after my addiction, I guess I was in my early 20s.
That's when I, I, I, when God saved me and I turned to Christ, I know then for real.
Um, and I'm trying to think here, was that before or after Ninja Turtles?
Um, I don't remember if I did Ninja Turtles before or after that.
But yeah, that one was, uh, uh, there was a studio here, and there is a studio here in Phoenix that, uh, actually, it's got a cool history.
Uh, Jimi Hendrix recorded there, the Beatles recorded there, the Rolling Stones recorded there.
Uh, this is this famous little studio spot, but it's there, you wouldn't even know it is.
It's not marked with anything.
And uh, I had a relationship with them, I did some video games with them that I coordinated the stunts for and I did the stunts for Mission Impossible, um, Age of Empires 2, just a, a number of, a number of things, projects, a project that Steven Spielberg was going to do, and then he decided at the last minute to kill it.
Uh, and uh, they contacted me one day and they were like, Hey, uh, we need you to come in, we've got this project, and we can't tell you about it, and you got to come in, you got to sign confidentiality paperwork before I tell you about the possibility of this project.
And I was like, All right, so I go downtown, I go to the studio, and I walk in, and I'm sitting in the lobby, and they just bring out this pile of paperwork to me.
And I have to sign, I'm just signing paperwork, signing my life away, like confidentiality.
We'll take, we'll take you and your firstborn child if you mention this kind of thing.
And it was like Hasbro, Tonka, just, I mean, everybody, different things with them signing.
I will say nothing about this project.
So I fill all the paperwork out.
I go upstairs with my friend, and we go up to the big round table with all the big wigs and executives.
And they're like, all right, they said, we're working with the Ninja Turtles franchise.
We get an opportunity to do this project.
And we'd like you guys to do the stunt coordination, the fight scenes, and character stuff for Ninja Turtles.
Now, mind you, I grew up with Ninja Turtles.
Yeah, same here.
And I was a Ninja Turtles.
I was not allowed to watch Ninja Turtles.
Were you really?
For the homeschoolers listening, you might have not understood a few things that were mentioned there, including Jimi Hendrix, the Beatles.
Yes, Teenage Meet Ninja Turtles.
Oh, man, that's so funny.
Yeah, so I grew up watching Ninja Turtles.
Some of my heroes in martial arts were the original guys in the suits.
And so it was like a big deal to me.
So when they, I'm sitting at the table, I don't know what I'm there for.
And then they finally announce it.
They're like Ninja Turtles.
No joke.
Like everything in me was like trying really hard just to look very serious and professional.
Like, okay, I'll see.
You were trying not to shout cowabunga.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So, like, you know, we like.
The one reference.
That's the one thing I know about my talk.
Cowabunga.
Yeah.
And so I'm just holding, I'm containing everything I've got.
I'm holding it in.
And they're like, and we'd like you to like take ownership of this and sort of be the head of this.
And we're like, oh, okay.
Yeah, well, okay.
That sounds good, I guess.
Yeah, I think so.
And so my friend and I, both of us grew up in the martial arts together and competing together and both Ninja Turtles fanatics.
We leave the studio, like we drive out of the parking lot and we're like screaming in the car.
We're like, no way.
And then it became now a very intense battle between him and me.
Do you have a pizza party?
Well, we probably did, actually.
And we had really the hard part was like we were best friends growing up, but there was a real moment where our danger, where our friendship was truly in danger.
And that was where he and I had to basically make a decision as to who would play which Ninja Turtle.
Oh, man.
They left that up to us.
That sounded a lot of friendships just in childhood for a lot of guys growing up.
Which guy's going to be Raphael?
That's right.
And so, so we finally, I don't even remember exactly how we did it, except to say, like, well, what are you really better at with a weapon?
And he was better at those two.
I was like, well, these are mine.
And that's what I'm going to do.
So that's how we decided.
Was like, I'm better at Nung Chucks and the bow, and you're better with the size and the sword.
And so that's how I got Michelangelo and Donatello, and he got the other ones.
And then we also needed other characters to be played.
And it was all motion capture stuff because it was for a TV show that was like animated.
And I played, what's his name?
I can't believe I just lost it.
Who's the guy with the hockey stick?
Oh, Casey Jones.
Casey Jones.
Yes.
I also did Casey Jones.
Shredders.
Yeah.
Shredder.
Wayne Gretzky.
Wayne Gretzky.
Who is so?
What iteration was this?
Was it the show?
It was for the project.
Did it ever come out?
It was well, yeah, it was for the project they were doing with the television series.
So this was for the franchise.
For the live-action one?
No, no, this was for the franchise motion capture TV series.
Basically, this is when this is early on.
Man, they've come far.
This is early on.
Nicolas Capture, where they were really like Toy Story had fairly recently come out.
They were really getting big with motion capture.
And so this, when we, when we did it, the motion capture stuff we did was in this insanely expensive sound stage.
What I remember the most was there was this globe above our heads that was for the motion capture.
And basically, we're working with weapons and long staffs and like doing fight scenes.
This thing's right above our heads.
And I remember the tech guys were like, all right, guys, just a reminder: if you hit that ball up there, it's about a million dollars.
So please don't, please don't do that.
And that's the scary thing, especially because the suits we were wearing at the time, these were not wireless motion capture suits like people get to the benefit of now with little balls, the glowing balls on them.
This was still at the time where we had like cords attached to each point on our body and it came together on like a tail in the back that went to the computer operating system.
So like when we're doing the fight scenes, we'd finish a fight scene and the cord was wrapped around my neck and his weapon.
And, you know, we're like wrapped up in everything else.
That was so good.
When was that?
Maybe 2000-ish is when that was when we filmed that.
Hmm.
Yeah, so I'm wondering, what did this come out as?
I don't remember this.
Yeah, I don't know what this is.
So from what I understand, I didn't even watch what they ultimately did with the stuff, but early on, this was for the franchise, for the TV show stuff they were doing for, and it was all motion capture kind of computer animals.
This looks like cartoon.
Yeah, this was like Nickelodeon's.
Maybe.
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what they ultimately did with it, but I have if you look on our Apologia Studios channel, there is some old footage somewhere in there.
If you look up Jeff Durbin and Karate, there's some video out there where it shows clips of the actual fight scenes and shows clips from what the franchise did with it.
So, but to be clear, this was not the Michael Bay ones.
You're distancing yourself.
It was not the Michael Bay ones.
You know, what just dawned on me?
What?
Is that Ninja Turtles is pro-life?
How so?
Because these four baby turtles were flushed down the sewer.
And then they grew up to become heroes.
Like, imagine if they had just died down there as everybody wanted.
And they were adopted.
They were adopted by the rat daddy.
They were adopted by a rat daddy.
Yes.
By the rat who is the symbol of something good.
Yeah.
He's like, you're reaching.
You're reaching, but it's in there somewhere.
It's for sure in there somewhere.
Yeah.
Pro-life.
And the last thing I ever did for martial arts stuff was I did a TV show for MTV called The Final Foo.
And I wish I never did.
Wait, how do you spell foo?
F-U.
No, don't.
Now we have that isolated.
Yeah.
Nice job.
Yeah.
Spell Ica.
You're such an adult.
All right.
So that's the last thing I did.
It was a fight series for MTV.
And good job.
They tricked me into doing it.
They auditioned like 30,000 martial artists across the country.
And then I had a manager at the time.
And I guess MTV had got a consultant.
And he was like, look, you got to have some.
people who have reputation on the show, like world champions, that kind of stuff.
And so somehow they got to our manager.
Our manager contacted me.
She said, MTV wants you for this fight series.
And so I talked to MTV and I said, well, like, what is it exactly?
Is it like real full contact fighting?
Because I don't want to do point fighting stuff.
That doesn't, there's no real way to show the winner in that.
And they're like, no, no, this is full contact.
I said, what's that mean?
They said, well, like, you got to knock the person like out of the ring or knock them out or knock them down.
And I was like, all right, well, okay, I'll talk to you.
So then they flew me out.
I talked to them and then I went home, thought about it some more.
They flew me out again.
I did a bunch of like medical examinations and stuff.
And then I agreed to it because he said it was a full contact fight series.
And when I ended up getting out there, the first day I landed, they did some interviews, preliminary interviews on camera.
And they were like, so how do you, how do you think your strategy is going to change since like there's no head contact and it's like lighter contact?
Like how does that change your strategy as a martial artist?
And I was like, wait, what?
What do you mean?
Like, how are we going to do that?
I can't punch people in the face.
They were like, well, and you know, kicks are worth less than punches.
So punches are worth more.
I was like, wait, hold on.
You can't hit to the head.
You can't knock anybody out.
You have to hit with light contact.
And your kicks are worth less than punches.
That's the opposite of martial arts competition.
And they were like, yeah, well, how do you think it's going to change your strategy?
I was like, well, that's going to make this for a very boring fight series.
I was like, I thought this was full contact.
They were like, no, no, no, it's not full contact.
I was like, oh, boy.
So from the get-go, everybody that was on set that was like a professional was like, this is going to look ridiculous.
And it did, because what we realized early on was if punches are worth more than kicks and you can't really hit the head, all anybody has to do, and I know we're not on camera right now, but all anybody has to do is like literally put your hands on your chest and curl up into a ball and just run up to the guy and do like rock'em sock'em robots to his belly and you're going to get more points for those punches.
And so I remember one of the, one of the days we're on this like tall building in Los Angeles.
It's nighttime.
They built this set on top of this building and there's this fight going on and they literally look like rock'em sock'em robots.
It looked so ridiculous.
And so I remember the director calls cut and he's like, hey, guys, this is the most ridiculous thing.
Nobody's going to watch this thing if you guys don't actually do martial arts with each other.
And I just raised my hand real respectfully.
I said, well, sir, I said, these are the rules you've set up.
And this is the best way to win this thing is rock'em sock'em robots because this isn't martial arts competition.
And so it ended up the series went out.
It was popular for a little bit and then it just, and nothing happened.
That's the last thing I did.
And the commercial they used to sell the program that was constantly playing on MTV for like two months was a video where it was like, some people will do this and some people will break the rules.
And it was me doing a spinning sidekick of somebody's groin.
And they just kept showing that over and over and over, like me breaking the rules.
So you're the rule breaker, huh?
That's me.
Final food.
I think that's what we could call coronavirus.
The final flu.
Flu.
Wow.
Yeah.
Hey, you know what?
I will say one thing that is such a gift with coronavirus is airline tickets are cheap right now.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
They are so cheap right now.
The debate I have, the team debate on how Dr. White in Salt Lake City is coming up in, I think, less than a month.
And normally we drive to Salt Lake just to save money for the ministry because we do a lot of ministry out there with the Mormon Temple or Mormon, yeah, all that evangelism.
And so we usually drive out because the plane tickets would be like, you know, $3,450, somewhere around there.
Right now, tickets to Salt Lake City are $75 round trip for us.
So we might be flying.
Yeah.
So speaking of Dr. White, we need all the sordid details.
What would you like to know?
Should we go to our break?
Like, well, do the.
Yeah, I was kind of thinking we'd just cut it somewhere, but yeah, we could do that.
I know where we're at.
So we're going to go into our subscriber exclusive portion now.
And Jeff Durbin has the dirty details about James White, every one of them.
James White also wants to know.
I am curious more of your just stories of, because I know that you guys have actually convinced some women to not have abortions.
I'd love to hear some of those actual stories of those kids that have actually lived because of that ministry.
Had something else.
Yeah.
And because you're a martial arts guy, you got to have a couple times in your life where you've actually been in a real fight.
I want to hear some real fights.
Okay.
Yeah.
And also if you've ever met Carmen.
So we're going to find out.
We're going to find out if Jeff Durbin has ever met Carmen.
And don't spoil it, Jeff.
But yeah, we're going to find out.
And then you adopted a child that was saved from abortion also?
Yes.
And we're going to hear about that.
Hypocrite.
Oh, wait, no, it's the opposite of hypocritical.
That's right.
It's the other way around.
Consistent worldview guy.
Before we go behind the paywall to the subscriber fancy pants lounge, is there a tell people where to find you or anything like that?
You want me to apologiastudios.com and go to endabortionnow.com to get your church equipped to save lives.
Cool.
All right.
Let's do it.
Coming up next for Babylon Bee subscribers.
Only for the elect.
The elect are here.
But you can elect yourself in our version of just pay your way in.
This is not a very good analogy.
So this sounds weird.
First things first.
How many people have you punched in the face?
Yeah, I always think like one day he would show up at an ugly sweater party and not know it's an ugly sweater party and still win.
It was the first time in the history of creation that somebody has been peed on and they were just praising God.
So I'm like pleading with God, like, tell me, like, you want me to do this and I'll do it, but I don't know how it's going to be possible.
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