Art Bell MITD - Dr Gillian Holloway Lucid Dreaming
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From the high desert and the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening, good
morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's 25 time zones, all covered
by this program like a warm blanket, which is called Midnight in the Desert on
I am Art Bell.
Good evening.
I don't know why I say that.
Give all three greetings, and then I say good evening at the end of it all.
Okay, so two rules for this show, two rules only, and those would be no bad language, because little ones listen to this program, and only one call per show.
That's it.
I know I don't look over at the wormhole often enough, but Mark, I don't know, he got my attention tonight.
Such a simple little statement.
He says, Art, Why do two UFOs never, uh, why do they never look the same?
They never look the same.
He misspelled a couple things.
Bad mark.
And don't use the number two.
Write out T-W-O.
Nevertheless, what a hell of a good question.
In all my years, now many, I have not seen two, actually two UFOs that could be said to be Identical.
Now, maybe they've got, you know, more than Ford and Chevy and the UFO manufacturing business up there somewhere.
And maybe there are millions of races visiting.
Who knows?
But I thought, what a good question.
Anybody else thought about that?
They never look the same.
They're always different.
Right?
Even if they're a little foggy or even if they're clear.
They're always different.
Why would that be?
Well, okay.
Some good news and mostly bad news.
Good news, I guess, is that the United States claims that we flew a drone in the right place and we killed Jihadi John.
You know, the guy with the British accident cutting off American heads?
So they may be picking up pieces of Jihadi John right now.
Or not.
But they think they got him.
Pretty sure.
In other not-such-good news, Kurdish Iraqi fighters launched a long-awaited offensive to retake the strategic town of Sinjar from the Islamic State group, you know, ISIS.
And it looks like early reports are they're doing well.
They broke supply lines and so now they've got to push on in.
Twin suicide bombings, courtesy of ISIS, struck in southern Beirut.
Killing at least 43 people, wounding scores more, so again ISIS.
I will tell you, that whole part of the world right now, And I'm afraid I even include Egypt to some degree in it.
Maybe Italy soon.
This is spreading like a horrible virus.
It's like a bomb went off in that part of the world.
Even Europe in general doesn't seem that safe.
And may not be unless we stop these fools.
It's like a bomb went off in that whole part of the world, and I gotta tell ya, We lit the fuse.
Back with Iraq.
We have ourselves to thank for what's going on over there right now.
For months and months, Marco Rubio's campaign has sort of, well, they've worked out of a garage, for example, right?
Now, all of a sudden, it looks like Rubio might be getting some traction.
I told you I thought he might be the one.
And so they're moving on up, and they've got actual campaign headquarters now.
Out of the garage.
It's a ways from there to the presidency, but you never know, right?
Moving on up.
And then the federal government is proposing, Thursday, this is pretty incredible, to ban smoking inside and out of public housing nationwide.
You can imagine what kind of reaction this is getting nationwide.
Probably not so good.
Even non-smokers are saying, my God, the government not passing a law against doing something that is legal for citizens to do inside their own home?
Yeah, I love government too.
Alright, coming up is a very, very, very interesting show.
Dr. Jillian Holloway has been on the faculty of Melhurst University in Portland, Oregon for 21 years and is dedicated to making dreams more accessible to everyone.
I love these shows, I really do.
Her research into the meaning of dreams is known internationally and she is the author of four books on working with dream messages to change our lives.
Work has been featured in the Washington Post, the New York Times Health Blog, magazines like Shape, Allure, Cosmopolitan, Self, and Women's World.
She is a veteran of over 500 radio and television interviews.
She should be wearing a flak jacket or something.
She leads private dream discussion groups and appears as a trainer and speaker for those interested in dream analysis.
So coming up in a moment, if you will Simply stay about where you are.
Dr. Jillian Holloway is going to be here, and I'm sure she's going to get an opportunity to talk to you about your dreams, and I know she's going to hear about one of mine, and you're probably going to want to hear it, too.
I debated and debated about talking about this dream, but it was so genuinely funny that There's just no way I can not do it.
My wife said, don't do it.
Now, I'm going to tell this dream.
Everybody dreams, so everybody's going to be interested tonight.
Stay right where you are.
This is Midnight in the Desert.
Listen to the wind blow.
So watch the sky rise And in the shadows, there will love and you'll lie
Living your life as I wonder where you are I wonder if you think we're fine
There's a part of the time you never want to miss dreaming I don't know.
Midnight in the Desert doesn't scream calls.
We trust you.
But remember, the NSA... Well, you know.
To call the show, please dial 1-952-225-5278.
That's 1-952-CALL-ART.
Huh.
Alright.
My favorite.
You know that, right?
That's 1-952-CALL-ART.
Huh. Alright.
My favorite. You know that, right?
Uh, Dr. Jillian Holloway, welcome to, uh, Midnight in the Desert.
Thanks, Art.
I can't tell you how excited I am to talk to you.
I think the last time we spoke, I was young.
Yeah, me too!
It was what year do you think it was?
Yeah, I think it was.
Oh, no, no.
I said what year do you think it was?
Oh, what year?
I'm sorry.
You know, I think it was probably 95?
I was young.
Yeah!
Okay.
I was young.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So you're really good at this, I know.
I guess the first good question is why do we dream?
Well, there are a couple of things that we assume about dreaming.
One is that we dream to prepare ourselves for whatever is coming next in life.
There is a developmental aspect, a preparation aspect.
That's why there's a lot of skill rehearsal.
and a lot of sort of future scapes in our dreams.
So that's one thing that's going on.
Are you, excuse me, I'm sorry.
Are you alluding to the next life?
No, although that's probably the case in people who are getting close to death
or closer to the end of their transition.
Yeah, they'll be dreaming about the next life and about their death.
So then you believe in reincarnation?
I do at this point, yeah.
I'm very heavily leaning that way myself.
I've done interviews with a number of guests lately, and it just seems logical.
You know, an awful lot of the world does believe in reincarnation.
We're sort of in an area where it's not heavily favored, but gosh, more and more points to it.
Anyway, back to dreams.
There must be some good reason that we dream.
Well, maybe for our health, maybe because our brains have to be active when we're sleeping, or what?
Well, we know that almost all species of mammals dream.
The speculation is that there's something going on with brain regeneration.
There's a basic biological function that happens.
And also we can see with animals, those that they have been able to hook up to electrodes and see what's going on in their brains a little bit when they're dreaming, the speculation is that they are rehearsing Life strategies for animals that is procreation and hunting, nesting, those types of behaviors because they have a similar brain activity as they do when they're creating a nest, when they're looking for a mate, when they're hunting.
So it looks like they're dreaming about the important things in their life.
I guess they are.
My cats dream, and when they do, they run in their sleep and they meow, you know, like they're chasing something.
Either one of the, maybe something of the, a cat of the opposite sex, or a mouse.
I mean, clearly they're having that dream.
They're running like crazy!
Right, right, they are.
And they're very, if you, I mean, everyone has observed that There are very few things in nature that are just throwaways, and the dreaming activity is pronounced in mammals and in humans, and so we have to assume, as you said, that there's something productive intended here that has remained with us for good reason.
So the psychological ideas about dreaming have been a more recent area of inquiry and understanding.
But before that, the phenomenon of dreaming, we assume, is leading us and preparing us for what comes next.
And in fact, in my research in collecting dreams from different age groups of people, It's very clear to me that there's a cluster effect, that we dream about things that are coming up in the next couple of years.
When your kids have not yet gone to school, they'll start dreaming about first grade before they go.
And if you're pre-adolescent, you'll start dreaming about your first kiss before you have it.
You're dreaming about the next big thing that's coming.
So it certainly seems that there's a developmental preparation going on for us.
Certainly, a lot of my dreams have been clusters.
No question about that.
Yeah.
I'm going to tell you about one, despite my thinking I probably ought not.
Those are the best kind.
Really?
Okay.
Well, so here it was.
This just happened like a couple days ago, and I was having this dream, and I was sitting somewhere.
I don't remember where, but what I do remember is some big, fat dude came along.
and planted his butt on my hand and I was saying, hey, that's my hand, I'm yanking on my hand, right?
Trying to pull it out from under his butt, but it's big and it's heavy and I can't get it out.
And that's the instant I woke up and with one last tug, I pulled my right hand out from under my butt.
Laughter...
Interpret that one, Jillian.
And I was laughing.
I told my wife she was cracking up.
Well, was this your right hand by any chance?
Yup, yup.
Right hand.
Was it?
Yup.
Okay.
Yup, it was.
Well, I'm not sure how profound this one is, but... No!
But it's a great example of how our physiological state gets incorporated into our dreams.
Maybe my brain is preparing for a bigger butt.
Let's hope not!
Shoot!
No idea.
Anyway, now that that's out of the way, we can get into some real stuff here.
But it really was a dream, and the funny part of it was that I woke up, and my final action was a final tug, pulling my own hand out, and I went, aw, man's my own butt.
Well, I'm glad you shared that, because that kind of clears the air, doesn't it?
I don't know what it does to the air.
It's the truth.
An embarrassing truth.
So, but the interesting part of it is, you know, part of that was in a dream and then it sort of completed in reality, huh?
Yes, yeah, and that's, you know, what we, what we speculate.
We don't have to worry about this dream forcing meaning into it, but there are, there is a case to be made that the way your mind wraps around the physiological problem or sensation and creates a little storyline that is
partly derived from your personality and partly derived from your current
circumstances. It's kind of a reality sandwich that gets wrapped around that
physiological state.
Alright, I can accept that.
Is it worth trying to understand dreams in general?
Most of my dreams, Doctor, are of my earlier life and of radio.
I dream of radio past and present and future.
I'm just so involved in radio that I dream a great deal about it.
It's awful.
It's actually awful.
Is it too much?
Well, I worked for an interesting lady for ten years in Las Vegas.
And I loved her to death.
Claire was her name.
But she used to beat up on me all the time.
I don't mean physically, but psychologically.
Because, well, frankly, I'll tell you, she worked for a radio station that was a right-wing Kind of preachy thing to people, right?
Right-wing politics.
Except for me.
I was talking about UFOs.
So she used to beat up on me for that, even though I had the highest ratings of all.
But she beat up on me about that, and I've had a lot of dreams about that.
Oh, that's interesting.
Moderately.
Well, it is in a sense, and here's the thing to remember, and you can play with it or you can let it go, but when we have a really riveting experience of whatever kind, it could be high school, it could be childhood, it could be adulthood, It becomes kind of an imprint, and then that character or that situation becomes like the poster.
It becomes a picture for a certain constellation of feelings or pressures.
It depends on what it is.
But when you dream about Claire, you might not be dreaming about Claire.
Or about that time in your life.
You might be dreaming about a particular kind of pressure.
That's just like, you know, I'm kind of up against it, but that's where I do my best.
But yet I still don't like being up against it.
Yeah, that's radio for sure.
Every day.
Every day, sure.
You're only as good as the last show you did.
And so there's a constant pressure.
But I must admit, I enjoy it.
I like living under that pressure, and when it's not there, I'm sorry to say, I miss it.
You miss it, sure.
Yeah.
So, anyway, I want to jump to lucid dreaming.
I guess you and I did talk about lucid dreaming way back then.
I don't truly understand, really I don't, what lucid dreaming even is.
Well, you're not alone.
In fact, the people who are studying it still don't know quite what it is.
But what it seems to be is the phenomenon of being aware that you are asleep and dreaming while it's happening.
Usually when we're asleep and dreaming, we think we're awake.
You know, you're having an adventure and you're talking to Claire and things are going on and you faked yourself out and you think you're awake and you're really asleep.
But when you're lucid, You know that you are asleep and you're dreaming, but you're aware of what's going on and you're fully cognizant of what state you're in.
So that's the difference.
That's the lucidity.
It doesn't mean that you can control everything that's going on.
Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.
But you are aware that you're in that dream state.
So you become self-aware, full awareness.
You're talking about, as in now, awake, full awareness within the dream.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And there are, the way I hear about this most is through my research with people who are having communications, they say, with the dead.
Where they meet their grandmother and she comes back and they say, shoot, grandma, I thought you were dead.
Am I dreaming?
Are you here?
And grandma says, oh, yeah, I'm here.
And yeah, you're dreaming.
I'm in your dream.
And the person is completely aware they're dreaming and then they have their little visit.
Yeah, that's pretty wild.
All right.
Boy, that's really wild.
Now, let me be absolutely clear here.
This is, in other words, you're in a sleep state.
Right?
It begins in a sleep state or not.
Oh, you are.
You're asleep.
Okay.
You're asleep.
You start having a dream, but somehow you manage to come to full current awareness, contemporary awareness of everything.
Could you open your eyes if you wanted to during this dream?
Well, that's not typical, but they have had people in the sleep laboratories that can give a signal to the researchers.
And they're having that rapid eye movement like your cat does when she's dreaming.
Oh, yes.
But they can give a special signal with a prearranged signal to say, oh, I'm dreaming now, guys.
Make note, I'm doing the signal for you.
Indicating awareness.
Yes.
I've never even been close to that state that I know of.
Or the thing I described to you a little while ago, my butt dream was as close as I've ever been.
That was actually sort of, it just, I don't know, dream into reality continued.
Well, as funny as that is, that's exactly how you train yourself to begin lucid dreaming.
Not by sticking your hand under your rear end, but rather to blend the states of consciousness, that awareness and the dream state.
So you can teach yourself to recognize a trigger, that's the way that's most often taught, to look at your hands or to look at the mirror or to try to read and see if you can read something.
There are all kinds of different triggers.
You can set up sort of like hypnotic programming where you tell yourself you're going to become aware in a dream.
Or you can do what I call dream walking or dream sliding, where you relax, lie down and go off in search of your dreams, maintaining your awareness while you go.
And that's the approach that I like best because that gives you a greater blending of your consciousness.
You put something up on our website tonight, right?
What is that?
That is a little sample of what I call dream walking or dream sliding, which is kind of a meditation where you can go into a relaxed state.
You can sit down or lie down.
Do this little rehearsal that you can then use when you fall asleep at night to try and ignite that blend of consciousness so that you can maintain your awareness as you slip into sleep.
Okay, everybody take your credit cards out.
It'll be $9.95 per dream.
No, actually it's free.
I would think this would normally be part of something you'd offer to people in a maybe clinical setting of some sort?
Well, I do teach little classes on this and give people techniques.
I think it's something that, you know, it's pretty controversial, lucid dreaming, and some people think it's quite dangerous, you know, kind of don't try this at home sort of thing.
Why?
Well, it has a reputation, kind of like out-of-body experiences where people feel that you can go off and meet some dastardly characters in other realms.
Well, are you sure it's not combined with OBE?
No, I'm not sure.
I mean, I do think many of what people are having when they talk about lucid dream experiences are out-of-body experiences.
Oh!
It's certainly not necessary to have an Oobie to be lucid in a dream, but that is one of the things that happens, and I think those are probably the encounters that are a little bit more risky for people or a little bit dodgy in some cases.
Okay, I have a couple of questions for you about OBEs.
Have you ever had one yourself?
Oh, absolutely!
In fact, I've had a few throughout my life and last year I checked out... This is just one quick question, please.
If you've had an OBE, I've never had one, I want one, but I've had really cool people lately on talking about OBEs and one of them said something that I thought was really cool.
He said he can walk right through buildings, he can walk through walls, he can walk through doors, And he added something that when he walks through solid objects in an OBE state, you can kind of feel a little bit more resistance as you move through them.
And you can kind of feel the texture of them as you move through them.
Does that sound familiar?
Oh yeah, that's exactly right.
You're the second person I've asked about that, and you got it just right.
That's amazing.
I would so love to do that, Doctor.
Well, I was about to say that I checked out a book by Robert Monroe, you know, the expert on boobies.
I didn't read it.
I put it on my nightstand, and that night I flipped right out of my body and threw it out the window.
Seriously?
Seriously.
And just from the book?
I have no idea.
Maybe it was a power suggestion, but I thought, that's a heck of a book.
You don't even have to read it.
Just bring it home.
You know, I was honored to actually interview Mr. Monroe before he died, Dr. Monroe.
Uh-huh.
And he was an amazing man, an absolutely amazing man.
All right, hold tight.
We're at the bottom of the hour break, the longer one I told you about, so relax for a few and we'll be back.
Dr. Jillian Holloway is my guest.
Midnight in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
Wanna take a ride?
Exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network.
This is Midnight in the Desert with your host, Art Bell.
To call Art, please dial 1952-225-5278.
That's 1952.
Call Art.
Alright, people are stacking up like cordwood on the phones, computers.
Hold it, everybody.
We're not going to the lines yet, but that time will come.
So I don't want you to get annoyed because you're waiting, and I'm not picking up, because it's not time yet.
So, Dr. Jillian Holloway is my guest, and it's all about dreams, and that's why I know you're stacking up like cordwood.
Everybody has them.
There are realms beyond the, in quotes, common dream.
And I love talking about those, and those are lucid dreaming, which I'm understanding a little bit better now, and, of course, OBEs.
And so we're talking about all of that, and it's all sort of, I guess, wound together.
Anyway, a dream interpreter is here.
Is that what you would call yourself, Dr. Holloway?
Yes, more or less.
Yeah, sure.
A dream interpreter.
So, how many dreams actually have important meaning?
And are there dreams that just, you know, really don't mean a darn thing except, you know, the fancy of the mind, letting loose?
Well, I think everything that we dream is potentially meaningful.
You know, a dream is just a thought that you have when you're asleep.
Right.
So, some of the thoughts you have are more important than others, aren't they?
That's one way to think about it.
Yes, I guess so.
But sometimes you have a dream and then later it comes true.
The problem with this is you can't, there's no little label that flashes as you're having the dream saying precognitive, precognitive, warning precognitive.
You can't know When you're having that dream until it actually happens.
Yeah, that is.
That's the rub, as we say.
The more you know about your dreams, the more you pay attention in general, the more likely you are to have some kind of a gut reaction to the dream when you wake up, that you can take forward, that quickens your sense of recognition.
But you're right, in very few instances do we know that we're having a precognitive dream unless it's a lucid dream and then people have had the experience of being told or hearing a voice or saying, be sure to remember this tomorrow.
So the more lucid, that's an argument for learning a little bit about how to be more lucid in your dreams because you have a lot
better shot at recognizing especially any kind of a warning that you
have in a dream.
Okay. I've heard that it's even possible for two people to have the same dream
at the same time and have them be lucid dreams. True or false?
Oh, true.
And that is so far from anything that I can even... I guess I understand it, but that's miles and miles ahead of what I thought could be.
Well, you know, I have a theory that all of us have these kinds of blended consciousness, dream experiences, but they are so, as you say, they are so far away from what we think about things that we are not likely to remember them when we wake up.
But I don't think this is a sign that some are more evolved than others or smarter than others.
I think this is the nature of our consciousness, that it is blended and we're having these experiences whether we remember them or not.
Can people actually use dreams?
In other words, if you get adept at it and you want to, I don't know, solve something in your life, improve something in your life, work out something in your life, can you sort of order up a dream?
Yes, you can.
It's sometimes called dream incubation or dream programming.
How about dream genesis?
Oh, I like that!
I just thought that one up.
Yeah, well, that's why you're an entrepreneur.
No, that's why I watch Star Trek.
Anyway, so you could actually cook up a dream to fix something in your life or improve something.
Yes, you can ask for another perspective, you can ask for an aerial view, you can ask, what am I missing?
An aerial view, really?
Yes, oh yeah!
Well, that sounds like a dream and an OBE.
You know, you can ask for an aerial view, physically or metaphorically, kind of the big picture.
A lot of times, what's going on when we're stumping ourselves with something fairly simple in life, it's because we're not really taking the big picture, and that's often what dreams can show us.
Same intelligence, different point of view, and therein lies the solution sometimes.
You mentioned that you have OBE'd, and so here's another question for you.
Have you ever, or were you in it lucid?
Oh sure.
Oh my, okay.
So if you can have an OBE and you're lucid during that OBE, you could go in search of proof of the OBE that could be then later verified.
Oh yeah, yeah, a lot of people do that.
With luck?
Yeah, with mixed results, but yes.
I don't have any shocking revelatory story to share at this point.
It would be nice if I did, but yeah.
I think it would be good to have proof that OBEs are real.
Or maybe it doesn't matter.
If they're not real, maybe it's still just as cool.
Well, I think if you talk to anyone who's had one, they are so unique that you know something extraordinary is going on.
Would you go so far as to say that you're always in a lucid state when you're OBE?
No, I wouldn't because I've heard stories of people who were kind of had their butt on their hand.
No.
I shouldn't have done that.
There's already some guy talking about making a cartoon out of it.
No, I think, in fact, in Robert Monroe's book, which I later read after I went flying out the window, he had a story where he was wrestling with some kind of heavy-duty, rubber-bodied fellow, and it took him a long time to figure out it was his own body.
He was next to it.
Well, that's a gentler story.
I like that.
So he wasn't lucid.
I get it.
I would like to try this lucidity that you say is possible during a dream.
Is there any trick when you're dreaming to switching yourself into a lucid state?
Sure there are a lot of tricks and one thing you can do is set up a signal whether it's a lot of people are looking at their hands or looking at their feet or trying to read something because often you can't read very well in dreams so if you pick up something to read and you can't read it you know you're dreaming Set up a trigger that's likely to be pretty easy for you or something that you frequently dream about, especially if you have a recurring dream.
The next time I dream about the radio or producing a show, I'm going to become lucid and know that I'm dreaming.
You can just set up a trigger for yourself.
And then at that point, you can do what?
Sort of stand back from the unwinding dream and observe it from a distance or what?
Well, you can do whatever you want to do.
I mean, the dream will likely unfold the way it is.
It's like you're in a movie, and you suddenly know you're in a movie.
But the movie still runs, and the plot's still going on, unfolding.
Can you get in and mess with the story?
Yes, then you can get in a mess with the story some.
And to a greater or lesser degree, that's the fascinating part.
Because you'd think once you know you're dreaming, the jig's up.
Yeah.
And then you could, you know, be on the beach somewhere.
Right.
But no!
It tends that the story unfolds and you can manipulate it more effectively, but it isn't that the dream goes away.
It's just that you know what kind of landscape you're in.
All right.
You know, we're here pretty late at night.
Well, it's going on 10 o'clock now here in the West and, you know, really, really early morning back East.
So I'm going to risk this.
A lot of dreams surround sex, right?
I mean, I think every adult knows that.
So here is my question.
I don't want to say some of the best sex I've had is when I was asleep, because that just sounds bad and gets me in big trouble.
But it's been pretty good, with one really super major complaint.
And that is, I always, without exception, every single time, wake up just before I'm done.
Now, is that a universal thing, or not?
It's not universal, but it is prevalent.
More likely than not?
Well, it's... God, that's annoying.
Yeah, yeah.
Making a complaint, that's all.
Yeah, well, it's a problem.
And in fact, it seems to be the same thing that wakes us up if we're falling off a cliff before we get to the bottom.
Oh, yes?
There's something about your blood pressure shooting through the roof and a lot of panting and gasping and heart pounding going on that wakes us up.
So, obviously, a dream like that is the body's Signal to itself that, you know, it's time for some love.
I guess, right?
I mean, that is a basic human drive, right?
So, if it's been a while since the last we got together, it's time to get together.
I'm getting in so much trouble here.
But isn't it that?
Isn't it your body telling you that?
It can be.
Yes, it can be.
And there are all sorts of romantic scenarios, erotic scenarios, and sometimes there can be a symbolic interpretation to them as well.
And the way to know that it's symbolic, here's a clue.
If the person featured in your dream, hopefully it's a person.
If it's not a person, there you go.
Well, then we need to have a different doctor on.
Well, that can be a clue that if you ask yourself, does this make any kind of sense at all when you wake up?
And the answer is no.
Then you've got a symbolic dream on your hands, thankfully.
And you can start to look at, you know, why Carol Burnett?
Why?
Carol Burnett, really?
Yeah, you know, whatever.
I mean, nothing against Carol Burnett, but if she's not your idea of an erotic night out, then there's a reason why she's there and a reason why it was wonderful with her.
It's something symbolic.
Okay, I would say that one thing that most people don't have is dreams of bad sex.
Oh, well, you'd be wrong.
Of course I would.
Yeah, yeah.
They do, huh?
Unfortunate encounters abound, yeah.
Let me rephrase that.
I've never had such a dream.
Well, good for you.
Yeah, things can be remarkably problematic and fraught with the most ludicrous interruptions and exposures and things going wrong and relatives wandering through the room.
Mom!
Yes.
Like that.
Mom walks in, oh God.
Okay, well, yeah, I suppose so.
Those come pretty close to nightmares.
And that brings up another good topic, too.
I've had a few nightmares.
Are they more meaningful than, you know, otherwise silly dreams?
Well, they can be very important to look at, or to at least consider what might be going on.
I don't know that they're always, always meaningful.
Sometimes they're stress dreams, they're anxiety, but they can be very, very important.
And the good news is that they're not always about something terrible going on in your life.
The dreaming mind tends to use nightmare imagery as volume control.
So, this is the equivalent of your own mind shouting at you.
Really?
Yeah.
And if you dream of The Walking Dead, you know, that means you're watching, if you watch too much of a TV show.
This happens to my wife, who's Filipino, and I've caught her up.
Filipino, I guess I ought to say.
And I've caught her up.
She loves American series, but I noticed after watching a mini-series or a series, a long series, she would begin to dream she was part of that series.
Oh, uh-huh.
Is that a normal thing to do?
It's fairly normal, yeah.
Some people have more programmable dreams, and so whatever they are exposed to regularly before bed will get incorporated into their dreams.
Yeah.
Very, very interesting.
I mean, she was in The Sopranos a few nights.
What fun!
I guess, yes, you get so involved in the story You know, and you're binge-watching, so it kind of takes over your brain, right?
Yeah, it takes over your imagination, yeah, and you begin to sort of build a space in your consciousness where that story is unfolding.
Yeah, that's exactly how it happens.
It's kind of like what a novelist does when they write a story, and they go to that place to do their writing.
Well, I know there are a number of people bothered by The Walking Dead, Which is quite a series.
I mean, it's pretty graphic and somehow or another it sticks in your mind and then gets repeated in a dream.
So, everyday life, whatever we're doing, does influence what we dream or can influence it.
Oh, it absolutely can.
Now, it can trigger the scene to unfold in a certain way, but the content of the adventure is based upon your own psychology and your own stressors of that day, week, or month.
Got it.
Okay.
Do you think that scientists are getting close To being able to, well it's a two part question, to record dreams?
They say they are.
Really?
Yeah.
I forget the mechanism that they're using to record them.
It seemed like it was an MRI and something else, and they're not able to record them pictorially.
They're able to sort of map out the areas of the brain that are involved when we're dreaming about certain types of things or certain types of actions, you know, flying or sitting in a chair or wrestling or making love.
Got it.
And then they can see how the brain lights up during the dream state, and they can speculate You know, the series of images that were going through that person's mind based on the way their brain was lighting up for them.
Wow, imagine that.
And then one day I'm sure they'll actually be able to digitally somehow reproduce that dream in a picture form.
Sure.
Moving picture form.
And then there's one more step from there that might be a little scary.
I mean, if you can record a dream Then maybe you can play it back.
Meaning, play it back to another brain.
Maybe so.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're getting there.
Yeah, that's a little frightening.
Well, yeah, once you can record one, then I would imagine you could classify it like you would a movie, put it away, and then hook up to somebody else's brain and play it back.
I wonder if Science is probably moving in these directions.
I think so, yeah.
I hope it all works out.
I hope it does too.
Are you staying in touch with, I'm sure you are, the latest in dream technology, whatever it is?
Well, not the technology, not the electronic devices so much.
I mean, I keep track, but I'm not really involved in that, and that's not my bailiwick, so to speak.
Got it.
All right, well, you've got the important part covered.
It's real today.
Dr. Gillian Holloway.
We're talking dreams, all kinds of dreams.
Don't bring me down.
You want to stay out with your fancy friends.
I'm feeling you're a kind of dandy.
Don't bring me down.
No, no, no, no, no.
Good.
She is a dream interpreter.
She is an expert on a lot of aspects of dreaming.
Digital Network. To call the show, please direct your finger digits to dial 1952-225-5278.
That's 1952. Call Art.
My guest is Dr. Jillian Holloway. She is a dream interpreter.
She is an expert on a lot of aspects of dreaming, lucid dreaming, OBEs, all kinds of things.
So we're just into all kinds of really neat discussions about dreams.
There's about 15 people on my lines right now.
Honestly, folks, hold tight.
We'll probably get to you around the bottom of the hour or maybe a little before.
But I have questions.
And I have Jillian.
So, Doctor, here's another question for you.
You mentioned falling dreams, right?
And that we always wake up before we hit the ground, right?
Well, more commonly than not, yeah.
I've never talked to anybody who hit the ground.
And so really, my question is, obviously, every year in America and around the world, people die in their sleep.
So, is it reasonable To ask you if some of the people who die hit the ground.
That's what happened to them.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, yes and no.
I don't think so.
I love those as a talk host.
I really like yes and no answers.
Well, I don't think I've hit the ground.
And I have died in my dream.
What?
Really?
Oh yeah.
And I know a lot of people who have.
Oh, really?
And so, that kind of blows that theory.
It really does.
I've never... you're the first one I've talked to who's actually hit the ground.
Oh, yeah.
And then what?
Did you kind of shake it off like a cartoon character?
Well, you know, I died and I got out of my body and said something like, gee, I hate when that happens.
and went on with the dream as a dead person.
And so, and I've talked to a number of people to whom that's happened as well.
Holy moly! You went on with the dream as a dead person?
Oh yeah!
What, looking back at your body?
Oh, well, you know, it's just, I mean, the presumption in the dream is that when we die, we pop out of our body
anyway.
And you're kind of your spirit self going through the next part of the dream and talking to people about, well, I died, but it really wasn't that big of a deal.
And you're just carrying on with the adventure.
You have cool dreams.
Well, a lot of people do.
Well, you're way, I mean, you're just miles and miles ahead of me.
Well, so we think, but you may not be remembering all of your adventures.
Actually, I am.
Another thing about dreams, of course, is that generally you have a dream and you go, that was something in the morning when you wake up.
Even though it was something, unless you, I don't know, have a discussion with somebody about it, or write it down, or in some way memorialize it, almost on the spot, it fades into oblivion and is gone.
Why?
Well, the memory, the state of dreaming is so different from waking consciousness when we're busy that as soon as we start getting busy, that dream fades away.
Unless you're able to kind of remember it or go through it once, trace it back like a movie before you get up.
If you can do that, then you're more likely to retain the whole thing.
Okay.
Is there value in remembering your dream?
Well, you know, naturally I think so.
The more you remember them, for one thing, the more you remember them, that is the quickest way to become lucid in your dreams.
Because if you remember them and you're so familiar with your landscape that you can start to recognize it's dreamlike.
And then you kind of catch on and have a lot more freedom that way.
But also when you remember your dreams frequently, you have access to all the other half of your own intellect and it can give you an edge just in making decisions and trusting your intuition and in having that sense of what's about to happen, that deja vu moment.
Okay, I'm going to push you a little bit here.
I know that there are people who have dreams about the dead.
You know, their dad, their mom, a lost partner, a child, hopefully not.
But I mean, have dreams about the dead and conversing with the dead.
In your opinion, are they actually speaking with these people?
Well, visitation dreams or after death communication dreams are qualitatively very different from grief dreams.
And so I believe that yes, those people who feel that they are connecting and having a conversation with the dead, I've come to believe that they are.
So, that is almost a verified way of actually communicating with those who have passed away.
Wow!
What leads you down the path of authenticity?
What makes you believe it's real?
Well, it's the number of regular dreams that I've been able to see and work with.
Over the years, I mean, certainly 50,000 anyway.
And after-death communication, dreams are very, very different on all points.
Visually, they're different.
The conversation is different.
The lucidity is different.
People usually know they're dreaming.
Like I said at the start of our conversation, they're like, but aren't you dead?
I mean, they know.
Am I dreaming?
This is part of the conversation.
If you can push yourself to the lucid state within that dream, then yes, right?
Yeah, and the things that happen are not typical for what one would expect.
A lot of people don't recognize their relatives right off the bat because their relatives are so young.
And the longer they've been dead, the younger they've gotten.
I like that.
Yeah.
And nobody expects that.
See, they expect Grandma to be 90, and she's now 30.
And she's very beautiful and has quite a sparkle in her eye.
And so this is something that I've heard from thousands of people, and none of them expected it.
Well, when I talk to people who speak of the afterlife, they do say that you regain your youth when you were at your best, whatever that was, and you regain that in the next life.
So, I guess that would make sense.
But, and really what you've said adds to the validity of your story, because why would you dream of grandma?
being young and actually have trouble probably even recognizing her until you realize oh my god that's grandma and you look great young so that that sort of adds to the validity of the whole thing uh... about the afterlife well it adds up over time i mean it's it is still speculative but you ask me what my belief is and that's what it is okay uh... and again The main topic tonight was lucid dreaming even though we've been all over the place and what it means folks is suddenly it's something you can do becoming conscious now type conscious in the middle of the dream you're having and if you so desire then perhaps even directing the dream and again you put something on the website and this will help you do what?
This will help people to practice just a real quick skill that they can use as they're drifting off to sleep to help them retain their awareness as they enter a dream.
Okay, so how is this used?
It's an audio file, I take it, right?
It is, yeah.
You can listen to it, you know, turn it on and sit by your computer and listen to it, rehearse it a couple of times and then you'll have it.
It's very, very simple.
How long is it?
It's a little over six minutes.
Six minutes.
You know what I'm going to do?
I'm going to go to my own website and see if I can find it.
If I can find it, I want to play just a hair of it.
Can I do that and see what it sounds like?
Sure.
Really?
You wouldn't mind?
Why would I mind?
Um, I have no idea.
It's your interview.
No, I just put it up there in case people wanted something, you know, that they could take away and explore.
Okay, cool.
I'm going to just play a little bit of it, just because I want to hear it.
So stand by, and I think here it comes.
Maybe.
Maybe.
Where is it?
It's not starting.
Uh, oh.
I'm on the wrong computer.
All right.
Doctor, give me just a moment while I get it on the appropriate computer.
Not everything goes to my board.
OK.
Sure.
I've never done this.
There's no danger, I assume.
Am I playing it on the air right?
I'm not going to suddenly flip somebody into some sort of state.
Flip out of your body.
I'll just keep chatting if you do.
Is it a form of suggestion or it's not hypnosis, right?
No, it's not hypnosis.
It's like a meditation.
So if someone were driving, you know, they'd probably want to turn it down for a second.
Yeah, don't do this while driving, definitely.
All right, just for fun, I want to hear what it sounds like.
Here it is.
Hello and welcome to a simple meditation on lucid dreaming called Doorways to Lucid Dreams.
My name is Jillian Holloway.
First of all, keep in mind, lucid dreaming is perfectly natural.
People have been having lucid dreams since we've been talking about dreams, so there's nothing extraordinary about this undertaking.
It's extraordinarily pleasant and valuable, but it's not that unusual, so keep that in mind as you move forward.
Keep in mind also that other people have learned to cultivate and enjoy lucid dreams, and so can you.
This is a learnable skill and something that with practice you will be able to do.
Alright, I'm going to halt it there for a second.
Doctor, is there something, a sound that you play or something further on like that or do you simply, is it a full explanation of how to do it?
No, there's no sound or anything like that.
It's just one of the dreamwalking techniques that I teach students.
I was just doing a little introduction so there is a little technical part that comes
in a moment or I can just tell you now if you'd rather whatever you want.
Oh no, tell me.
Oh go ahead.
I've got you live so what the heck.
Okay, okay.
This is a technique sliding on the rooftop.
So if you're lying down or sitting or wherever you are, you can imagine floating out the
side of the wall, through the wall and up onto the rooftop of the building that you're
in.
And just imagine your consciousness there, look around, notice what you notice on the
rooftop whether it's easy to stand or difficult, slide over to the edge of the rooftop and
imagine yourself jumping over to the next roof that you can see.
And I'm going to go ahead and close out the webinar.
And you just jump from roof to roof to roof in your imagination and it's just a little meditation.
And pretty soon, if you fall asleep doing that, you're going to fall asleep flying and you'll be on your way.
But if you don't, you'll just do this meditation and prepare and fall asleep into your natural dreams.
But by repeating it, you're inviting that lucid flying experience to begin.
All right, I've had very few flying dreams in my life.
I had one that was beyond cool.
I had recently visited the Empire State Building in New York and I had a dream that I was up there with somebody and they sprinkled me with this multicolored, it's like glitter, Mm-hmm.
And let me tell you, from that point, I could fly, and I took off, and I was soaring over New York City and all the buildings.
It was so cool.
Now, I don't think I was lucid during it, but boy, I sure was enjoying it.
That's probably the best flying dream I've ever had.
It's when I was very young.
Mm-hmm.
Not so many since.
Yeah.
Well, that's a great one.
What do they mean?
What do they mean, flying dreams?
Well, it's called ecstatic flight, when you have that incredible freedom and it's very vivid.
And that's usually associated with a skill set, actually, that's emerging in the dreamer.
It's usually a kind of thing where you're breaking through from the normal things that hold everybody back.
So, bright, creative kids often have those types of dreams.
Performers as well.
Yes, well, that was when I was launching myself into the world of radio and it was a period of intense exploration in my life and learning.
So, yeah, maybe that sounds about right.
Either that or you're cold reading me and just giving me the answers I want to hear.
here.
No, no.
So, for example, do you have classes?
Do you talk to people about this?
Tell them how to do this and that?
Yes, I have a lot of classes and a lot of online classes.
They can jump onto my website and see the classes that are around and the recordings of the lectures that I give.
I also work with people individually, usually on interpreting and exploring their dreams for meaning.
I was going to ask, for example, if you took a class of people and tried to lead them into lucid dreaming, because that would be such a breakthrough for me, I'm wondering how many in that class you would typically have success with?
Oh, I mean, theoretically, all of them.
Really?
Yeah, oh yeah.
That's one of the myths about lucid dreaming, and I think it's taught and talked about in a fairly clunky way.
And I don't mean any disrespect to my colleagues at all, but this is a very natural phenomenon.
It's not difficult.
It's not this huge accomplishment that we have to spend years on a mountaintop trying to develop.
It's absolutely natural and if you just practice there's kind of a trick to it.
It's almost like skiing or any of the sports where you find your balance and then all of a sudden you quit falling over.
And it's easy as can be.
But until you find that little trick for yourself, it seems impossible.
And lucid dreaming is exactly like that.
When you suddenly come to a lucid state, is it a shock?
Um, it can be.
A lot of people report that the first few times they become lucid, they wake up.
Because they get all excited and they're like, wow!
And then they bam!
They're awake.
And that's a problem for people who are trying to learn.
But it need not be such a shock.
What happens more naturally, more organically, if you will, is as people pay attention to their dreams, they read about them, they talk about them with other folks.
They begin to notice that they're dreaming while they're in the movie, so to speak.
And that is not such a big shock.
For example, years ago when I started to become lucid, I would find myself telling somebody about the dream I just had.
And saying something like, a couple of dreams back, I had this great thing that happened.
And then the other person would say, well, we're dreaming now.
You know that, right?
And so it was a more subtle effect.
And so I never awakened from that.
And in talking with other students and other dream enthusiasts, I find that that's pretty common.
So when it's more gradual, you actually retain more control and you don't pop out and become awake.
Okay.
Well, assuming you don't pop out of shock and become awake, and that I get, can you describe to us using words, and I know it's tough to describe, but it's... In other words, I know what a dream is like for me, and it's just a dream.
I haven't managed the lucid part yet.
So, I'm trying to understand if I were to pop into a lucid state, How I would sort of know that.
Would I still see the dream unfolding in front of me?
A dream that, I mean, you're almost always part of your own dream, right?
In some way.
It's kind of like you'd have to be standing back from it and watch it unfold like a movie as opposed to suddenly being, or being part of it.
Well, gosh, you're smart!
That's one of the giveaways, Art, is the point of view changing back and forth.
And where you're in it and then you're standing back from it and you're watching yourself do it and then you're back in it again.
When that happens, that is a trigger of becoming lucid.
So, that often occurs.
But you can be fully in your body and living in the dream and notice something that's out of place, too.
I had a dream where I said, well, where's the dog?
And somebody said, well, she's on the couch.
And I looked up and the couch was floating on the ceiling.
And I thought, you know what?
Couches don't float.
And then I knew I was dreaming.
Good observation.
Yes, good observation.
Yeah.
So that can happen.
You don't have to pop out of your body to have those types of realizations.
Can you wake up in the morning, and now I'm talking just about the average dream, and say, oh, that was an important dream, or that was a precognitive dream.
I, in my life, have had one precognitive absolute experience, which I will save everybody from hearing.
Because I'm not going to repeat it, but this was while I was very much awake.
It's possible to have precognitive dreams while you're asleep.
We talked about it a while ago, but how would you know it's precognitive unless it was saying something like, buy apple stock now, quickly, buy, buy, buy, or whatever?
How would you know unless it was suggesting something in the future?
And I'm not sure I've ever had a suggestion about the future.
It's always been the past.
Sometimes there's a sensation, an intuition or a wave of feeling or knowing that comes over you in the morning when you think about a dream.
And a lot of people have reported to me that they've dreamt about someone on the other side of the world.
That they were connected to and thought, you know what?
I'm just going to give him a call today.
And sure enough, something was happening that day.
And they were able to provide a warning.
One woman stopped a friend who had the pills all out on his bedside table.
He was all ready to commit suicide.
And her call, he said, stopped him.
Wow.
And that was because of a dream that she had and the feeling that she got when she thought about the dream.
Well, what you're saying is pretty common stuff.
I mean, people do suddenly, you don't even have to have a dream to suddenly have a feeling about somebody on the other side of the continent or the world and find out that something actually was going on, right?
Right.
So what is that, telepathy?
I think it is, sure.
I think it's telepathy, and I agree with the biologists who think that telepathy is part of our survival, both individually and socially, and that it's normal.
We're going to find out pretty soon it's normal.
It's not creepy.
You think so?
Again, this would be a very interesting field of research.
I imagine you hobnob in circles with people who do this kind of research, right?
No, I don't do much hobnobbing, but I do a lot of teaching and I work with students all the time.
Tell me their stories everybody's got that once-in-a-lifetime story, and they often involve our loved ones And they often involve danger and life-or-death and Lives they're saved because of a feeling or a dream and and so I've become a card-carrying believer really So telepathy If it really works, and I'm saying I think it really works, it seems like if somebody studied it carefully, they could figure out a way to enhance it and really make it work for us.
I mean, if you can get some kind of communication from somebody halfway around the world, that's great stuff.
Yes.
Yeah.
And you know all about remote viewing and I mean that'll make your hair stand on end.
Yes, but that's kind of getting a picture of something somewhere else.
This seems like something else yet again.
And I'm not sure what.
Some form of telepathy about a loved one.
And I think it might relate more to quantum physics.
You know this entanglement concept they have that two things That have been together and then are separated.
I don't know if you're into quantum physics at all.
But you could separate them by an infinite distance and they still flip and flop in exactly the same way.
As long as they have been together once, they can be separated and they'll always do the same flip and flop, flip and flop.
They'll always be in sync.
That's quantum physics.
And I wonder if it applies to people.
In other words, once you are attached to somebody in a very meaningful way, it's like you're entangled, I think.
And even though you may now be separated by a big distance, you're still flipping and flopping.
Pretty much the same way.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
That makes sense.
It does.
So the answer may lie in quantum physics somewhere.
I don't know.
All right.
I would like to take calls.
And I know that I have to take calls, and they're going to string me up shortly if I don't take calls, because it all filled up.
Nothing I can do about it.
It just keeps ringing.
Everything.
So when you talk to people, I guess you should expect an onrush of, please interpret the following dream.
Is that what you mostly get?
Quite a bit.
All right.
And I hope some of the questions go to some of the wider I really, really want to know how to become lucid in the middle of a dream.
I think I would like that.
You know me, or no, you don't know me.
I'd probably wake up in shock the first time that it occurred.
After that, I might be okay.
So it's not as jarring as an OBE, would that be fair?
Oh yeah, that's very fair.
That's good to hear.
All right.
I'm going to give them the talk.
Stand by.
Okay.
Here's the talk.
Are you ready?
Yes, we're going to take calls.
And so if you would like to connect with us and continue this conversation or enlarge on it, you can call our national phone number.
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Now, finally, you can call us on Skype.
We really like Skype calls because it makes you sound so good.
As long as you're using, I mean, for example, your iPhone.
You can download Skype.
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Free, free, free.
Once you get Skype, you can enter us.
You go to add a contact, and put in M-I-T-D-5-1, for North America, America and Canada, M-I-T-D-5-1, just the letters and then the numbers, all together, no spaces, and then we'll be in your contact list.
If you're outside North America, And I mean anywhere outside North America, in the rest of the world.
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I'm Art Bell.
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It's important you get the right number.
This is Midnight in the Desert.
To call the show, if you're east of midnight, call 1952.
Call Art.
If you're west of midnight, call 1952.
Call 1-952-225-5278.
Dr. Jillian Holloway is here.
She is a dream interpreter and knows a whole lot more about dreams.
So if you have questions, yes, now would be the time.
And I guess let's begin with Chelsea on Skype.
You're on the air with Dr. Holloway.
Oh, hello.
Hi.
Hi.
I have a dream I would like analyzed.
Okay.
So, a little bit of context.
Somebody wrote in this note in my car, I love you with a big heart.
Now, I have this huge crush on this German guy in my math class.
So I was kind of hoping it was him.
But anyway, the dream was that somebody had left this Tom Petty record on my car.
And it's one of those records that has a big heart on it.
And so I go to the record store and I say, Who left this record on my car?
And the record store owner says, Oh, it was this foreign blonde guy.
So, my question is, is that just wishful thinking or is it intuition?
Am I picking up on something?
Good question.
Yeah, that's a great question.
It's a great dream, too, Chelsea.
I love it.
You know, it's not possible for us to tell at this point whether that's wishful thinking or not.
It certainly seems like you're boring into the question and your dreaming mind is boring into the question, too.
And this is the best answer that you've come up with.
So, I would lean towards there being something there.
But I have to tell you, that's an educated guess.
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
You're welcome.
There's no way to know for sure, but Chelsea, if you meet the blonde German guy, Call me back.
I want to know.
He's in my math class, so I know him.
If there's a connection, Chelsea, call me.
Okay.
All right?
Will do.
Thank you.
Okay, thanks.
People are something, aren't they?
Off to California on the phone line.
Hi.
Hi.
I had a question.
I had a dream one time.
I was in a bubble, and I was going around Earth in slow motion.
It was so beautiful.
I could see the blue, the greens of the water on Earth, and there was this light shining down.
And when I looked out, I could see the black space.
My question is, it was so vivid.
Do you think that's an out-of-body experience?
Yeah, it could have been.
I get enough reports from people that we have a kind of a membrane around our dream state.
Ordinary dreams, lucid dreams, out-of-body dreams, we do have a kind of membrane around us.
I know how to fly in the dreams, but I usually prefer to levitate.
It's called hyper-vividness and it's also one of the qualities of the out of body experience.
That's certainly something you're going to remember all your life and I think that's
very possible.
All my life, for sure.
One more question.
I know how to fly in the dreams but I usually prefer to levitate.
Let's say I'm down on the ground and I see the top of a tree way up there.
I'll float to the top, touch it and float back down or float downstairs.
Do you hear a lot about levitating in dreams?
Not as much as flying, but yeah, that's a great way to become lucid is to just kind of lift off and see if you can start floating.
Yeah, so that's beautiful.
Okay.
Well, thanks for the information.
Yeah, thanks for calling.
Appreciate it.
Yeah, levitation sounds like fun and I really did love her dream.
Imagine being in a bubble circulating around the earth and seeing all the details of the earth below in such vivid relief.
Man, that'd be... I'll go for one of those.
Definitely go for one of those.
Okay, let's go to Sean on Skype.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
You don't sound like a Sean.
Well, you could be.
You're kind of Sean.
Hi, Sean.
You're using Sean's computer, right?
No, I'm a Shawn.
You really are a Shawn.
Okay.
Yeah, girls can be Shawns.
Okay.
Maybe Dad wanted a boy.
They can.
I have a wife named Erin, so... I started this habit of listening to the radio and falling asleep at night.
Thanks Art.
You're very welcome.
Anyways, my question... No, I have one for you before you ask.
Do we affect your dreams?
Well, that's kind of my question.
Oh.
Because now I listen to NPR and I know it starts at like 4 in the morning and then it repeats at 7 in the morning.
And so when I wake up and I'm listening to the radio, I'm like, oh, I can tell that that story got into my dreams.
So I guess my question is, Is that a good idea to do?
Or is that maybe taking up space where I should not have that input coming in?
You know, I don't think it's a bad idea.
You know, you want to be deliberate about it, though, and be selective about what input you have.
So, NPR might be a good choice.
You don't want something too catastrophic putting into your dreams.
You're going to dream around the material that's being played.
And if you were listening to music, the music would be in your dreams.
Whatever the input is, you're going to dream around it and include it.
It gets incorporated.
So just keep that in mind.
You're still working through your own personal material, even though stimulation is getting incorporated into the plot.
Well, I thank you for answering the question.
Alright.
You're welcome.
Bye-bye, Sean.
Yes, thank you for making the call.
Let's go all the way to Australia, because I know this is Jasmunda.
Hi Art.
I'll start by, I've never had a lucid dream because every time that I'm aware that I'm dreaming I suddenly wake up.
But the craziest and wildest and most intense dreams that I've ever had were probably nicotine patch induced.
So, obviously there's a chemical aspect to achieving this state, and all the dreams that I've had on nicotine patches feel like they go on forever, and I'm never actually aware that I'm dreaming, but the dreams just go on and on, and they're very intense.
Jasmunda, can I ask you a question?
Sure.
Would you call me back, because I answered your call the wrong way, and I put poor Jillian on hold.
So, ring me back immediately and I will do it the right way.
Now I have to figure out how to get Jillian back again.
Let me see.
Probably this one.
Jillian!
Yes, I'm back.
I'm sorry.
Jasmunda will call back.
Were you able to hear him?
I was not.
I was on hold.
Okay, well you're going to hear him now.
Okay.
Jasmunda, proceed.
Okay, so I have never had a lesser dream that every time I do, every time I'm aware that I'm dreaming, I suddenly wake up.
And I was telling Art that the craziest and most wildest and intense dreams I've ever had were when I was using a nicotine patch.
And so I said that obviously this is, there's some chemical away, chemical way to achieve this state.
These nicotine patch induced dreams are quite wild and quite intense and feel like they go on forever.
So is there anything to that?
Is there some chemical aspect of this that will cause that?
Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I hear a lot of stories about nicotine patches and also the nicotine, the pills that people take to get off smoking.
The stop smoking medications are great producers of wild dreams.
Oh yes.
Yes, they are.
And I tried it for a while, and boy, oh boy, do you dream.
Holy mackerel.
In fact, that's in their ad, you know, for the product, that you will have some pretty wild dreams.
So, Jazz is right.
Is there anything that you recommend, pharmaceutically, that will enhance your dreams, other than nicotine patches and stop smoking stuff?
No, I think it's probably wiser overall to try and just go it straight.
You've never been a smoker, I take it.
No, I haven't.
I can take a few deep breaths and start hallucinating, Art.
It's kept me clean.
But there are people who say that the vitamins that one would take to take care of your nervous system, the B vitamins and so forth, will help you with your dreaming process.
I've never experienced that, but that's what I hear from people.
So vitamin B, as in boy?
Jazz, you got that?
I got that.
I'll try it tonight.
All right, buddy.
Thank you for the call.
Good night.
Thanks for calling.
All right, that was from Australia, by the way.
Great.
I love it.
The accent.
Let's go to, you never know, Lynchburg, Virginia, I believe.
Hello, Lynchburg.
Hello?
Yes, hello.
Yeah, I just wanted to ask your guest, I'm not exactly sure what I would classify this dream as, if it was a lucid dream or what, but I had these weird ones.
It's like going to a different, kind of like a weird place.
Right.
But it's like this one that really stands out was, I was walking along, it looked like this concrete sidewalk, kind of like a walkway.
And it had this, uh, roof over top of it, and it looked like it was being supported by these ivings, and I was just walking along, just like a walk in the park, and I could tell there was these other people there, and, and they were just, looked to me like they were there doing the same thing, just visiting.
And, um, I looked over to my right, and I see like this puddle, and it has kind of like a, this effect of like a, um, like, Uh, like soap and water, kind of like that shining kind of rainbow type of effect.
Right.
Uh, and I asked the question, I asked, what exactly am I looking at?
I wasn't asking anybody in particular.
And it was like there was somebody there that was with me that said, um, I can't remember the exact words she said, but it was something about like the souls of the dead.
Oh my!
You get a lot of people, you get a lot of people that have these dreams about going to weird places because I've had about two or three of these my whole life, and they're always the same.
There's always other people there just like me that just look like they're visiting.
And they answer your questions?
Well, they didn't answer my question.
It was somebody else that was there, but I couldn't see this person.
It was like they were speaking into my head.
Yeah, I do hear some dreams like that where there's an invisible narrator or there's an amorphous kind of guide who is helping to explain what's going on sometimes.
I do hear dreams of that nature.
So what exactly is that?
Well, you know, it's hard to say.
I always err on the side of looking for personal material if there's something to learn from it, if there's a takeaway for you.
I also suspect that there are people and realms that we go to that are almost like an educational field trip.
And we visit, and it's kind of a documentary, and it's interesting, but you come back and you scratch your head and don't know quite why you were there.
And I hear more and more of that.
I think we're remembering what some people call non-ordinary dreams, where perhaps we are visiting another wavelength.
Maybe another dimension.
That's what I was wondering, but it kind of, it feels like, have you ever been to like an ashram?
Not personally, but I've seen... Like a temple?
Yeah.
That's kind of the feeling that you get.
It's like a feeling of like, you know, peace and you're away from all the hostility and the negativity and everything that you get from regular life.
Yeah, yeah.
Well there sure is, there is more to dreaming than Then we think.
I mean, obviously we're able to go other places, do other things that we could normally never ever do, and that's why we're doing programs like this.
Let's go to Raymond somewhere in the world.
Raymond, where are you?
Hi Art, I'm in the UK.
In the UK, okay.
Early morning.
Yeah, but what is this?
I had a dream, and it was a really vivid dream that I'll never forget.
I was on the sun.
I was actually inside the sun.
You were on the sun, in the sun, really?
Yeah.
Wow.
And the TV screen, they were watching all the publications and getting all the news for the Earth.
And it was like, I was told that every 11 years, it was basically like the sun cycle, every 11 years people were chosen And I knew this was a dream.
I was told this was a dream too.
People were chosen to actually fight demons in the sun.
Wow!
Now I thought this was a dream myself.
So this was told to you like a voice telling you this?
It was like other people that were in the dream with me were telling me what it was that was going on and it was really strange.
Wow!
I've never had a dream like that in my life and I've never heard anybody else have a dream like that.
Yeah, that's a wild one.
I love it though.
I love it.
The Sun, by the way, Doctor, goes in 11 year cycles.
Wow!
At least it has been.
There's some recent information very concerning about that, but generally it goes in 11 year cycles.
A full cycle being 22 years actually, but it'll be very active for 11 years and then not so active for 11 years.
Okay, let's go to Dino on Skype.
Hi, Dino.
Hey, Ed.
How you doing?
Doing okay.
Good.
First of all, your guest is so, so clear.
I mean, it's like The clarity is awesome.
Yes.
Well, that's Skype for you.
Exactly, exactly.
Hey, everybody's asking, do you remember your OBE in Paris, where you shot up above your body?
I do.
I do.
And really, I guess that was an OBE, but it was so fast, you know.
Unfortunately, I was in Paris on vacation, out of my normal environment, I instantly And I mean, it was so fast.
I left my body, and I was in this place of indescribable beauty and joy.
The feeling was incredibly wonderful.
And then, boom!
I was back.
So it was very, very short.
I shocked myself awake.
Yeah.
I remember the stories.
Oh, and if only I could go back.
If only I could go back.
Exactly.
You know what?
Another thing, too, I wanted to ask your guest.
I tend to... my dreams are so realistic that I actually have to go to bed with headphones on at night.
Otherwise, I would just totally have a dream that is just so vivid, so real, and I have to, like, kind of tone it down with headphones and listen to either music or a podcast every single night, you know?
How does that help you?
Um, you know what?
I think just the music or the talking in the background keeps me from dreaming, I guess.
But if I were to turn the show off or take the headphones off, I would definitely have a dream.
And it's always a very, very vivid dream.
And I don't know why.
Maybe I'm just overactive or something.
I don't know.
But I just was wondering what you thought of that.
Well, Dino, are your dreams that are hyper-vivid, do they seem like they're really happening?
I mean, does it kind of feel like they're real?
Yes, they seem very real, which is why I started wearing headphones just to stop, because I found out that, hey, if I'm listening to something all night long and keeping the podcast and stuff that I'm listening to going, I don't dream.
Yeah.
But if I don't, and sometimes they're not the best dreams, you know, you have a nightmare or depends what you're watching, you know.
So, you know, I don't know why that is.
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I've got a break.
You can both hold on.
We'll be right back.
This is Midnight in the Desert.
I wonder what happens to people who fall asleep listening to my program.
Some of them are pretty scary, right?
Anybody have a story?
Well, you done done me and you bet I felt it. I tried to beat you, but you so hot that I melted. I fell right
through the cracks. And I'm trying to get back. Before the cool done run out, I'll be giving it my bestest.
The night in the desert spans the world.
To call us from outside the U.S.
and Canada only, use Skype with a headset mic, if on a computer, and call MITD55.
That's MITD55.
I know, everybody is hitting me on the wormhole about, yeah, yeah, yeah, you had an O.B.E.
in Paris, and of course I did, but... As amazing and wonderful as it was, I don't consider it In other words, it was so instantaneous, so fast, I know it was an OBE, but I have never been able, A, to replicate it, and B, I've never been able to stay in the state at all.
I mean, that was the one time.
So, what I would like to do is to be able to stay in that state, and that's kind of the point of this morning's program.
To learn how to do something you don't know how to do.
So once again, Dr. Jillian Holloway and our caller.
Caller?
Yeah, Jillian.
Hi, yeah.
Yeah, I guess just one more thing to talk, you know, about is, is there any way to, like, control your dreams?
It's not like I've really attempted to, you know, do any, like, controlling of what I actually dream of, but, you know, I've taken the easy way out and put headphones on and just, you know, put it aside, you know?
I guess what he's asking is, can you be a director?
Is there something you can do prior to sleep that would allow you to sort of Say, alright, you know what?
Tonight I'm going to have a dream about telling my boss off the way I've always wanted to.
Yeah, and this may be one of the best questions or best considerations of the whole evening, and that is absolutely yes.
You can direct your dreams.
You can nudge them.
You can say, look, I get that was important, but you just scared the bejeebers out of me.
Can we do that again, but without the terror, so I can have a chance to understand what the message might be if there is one?
And your dreams will tone down or increase and what happens when we have dream deprivation and when we isolate ourselves from the dreaming process is it's a nightmare induction.
That is, you'll make the nightmares worse by turning away from them.
So, you know, use your judgment, use your headphones, but write the dreams down that you can remember, kind of think about them symbolically, get a hold of some material and see if you can decode them a little bit and your nightmares will stop.
That is the best cure for nightmares that there is, is sort of turning towards them and asking that they be toned down.
Tone down.
Is this in the, I mean are we praying for this?
We're just thinking it?
We're doing what?
No, you are talking to your own mind.
You're talking to yourself.
Yes, prior to... And all you have to say is, look, I get that, you know, I got it.
I'm listening.
You have my full attention, but tone it down.
Is this prior to sleep?
Yes, yes.
Or after you wake up from a nightmare and your heart's pounding and you're so sweaty you have to change your pajamas, go get a drink of water, lie down again and say, okay, let's start over.
I get that this is big, but give it to me another way because I can't handle much more of this.
And your dreams will give you something similar, but without the terror.
Cool.
Alright, I'm very hesitant to answer this next call.
It comes from Mitch.
And I need to have a talk with Mitch about his profile picture.
It looks like a booking picture, and his eyes are really wide, like he's done a lot of speed.
So I'm hesitant, but I will.
Hello, Mitch.
Hi, Art.
Hi.
You've got to change that picture, Mitch.
Yeah, I made that account, like, four years ago.
Okay, you're all broken up, too.
That's the other thing.
So get real close to your mic and talk.
Alright, can you hear me?
Yeah, but you're kind of broken up.
Hopefully it fixes itself.
I'll call him to talk about my most recent usage.
Mitch, it's not going to fix itself.
So I don't know what kind of mic you're on, but you need to change that.
And absolutely, Mitch, change that profile picture.
It's just not something people would answer.
Let's go to the phones.
Sorry about that, Mitch, but you were just sort of here and gone.
On the phone line, you're on the air.
Hi, I got a couple quick questions.
First, I haven't had a single nightmare in years and I was wondering if there's maybe anything that causes that or if there's anything I'm doing that... Do you want to have a nightmare?
I wouldn't mind it occasionally just for an interesting experience. That's it. He wants a nightmare.
Okay. That's an unusual request but how would he ensure a nightmare?
Well, you might want to expose yourself to some scary movies right before bed or
scary, you know, read some Stephen King, that kind of thing, right before bed.
Walking Dead?
I do listen to this show.
Well, you're on the right track!
Yeah, I think she's right.
I mean, we're scary, but we're not that scary.
Walking Dead or You know, as she mentioned, Stephen King, something like that.
Immerse yourself in something of that sort and it just might work if you really, really want a nightmare.
You want a bad one, huh?
Well, just with something to spice it up every now and then.
Also, once in my life I've had a precognition dream or however you would say that.
And it was a repeated dream that I had over and over again.
It was in the summer of 2001, and I dreamed that I was walking on street level in a downtown area.
I'm in the Twin Cities, so I assumed it was something like Minneapolis or something like that.
And as I'm walking, I see a plane fly into a skyscraper.
Right.
And of course, this was A few months before 9-11 and since then I've occasionally had repeating dreams and every single time I worry that it's something that's going to come true and it never, never happens.
Very, very interesting.
All right, let's ask Gillian or I mean Dr. Gillian.
Dreams that repeat, as he just suggested, could be, or perhaps they're not precognitive, but it would suggest, wouldn't it, if you keep having it, that it's some recurring cause?
Yeah, most recurring dreams are actually personal material.
Something that we haven't solved or something that we're working out or some kind of silly thing we keep doing over and over again or things like that.
But there are precognitive, I mean a lot of people have a once in a lifetime experience like you said with a precognitive scene that keeps playing over and over again.
And usually if it's something really off the wall, like a plane going into a skyscraper that has nothing to do with you, that those are more commonly, I shouldn't say they're common because they're uncommon, but they can be associated with a precognitive.
It's almost like a tear in the future.
Right.
The echo comes back.
Right.
Very large events like that cause a large number of precognitive dreams.
Now, I'm sure if we asked, there'd be a landslide of people saying, yes, I also dreamt of planes going into buildings.
So, if the event is larger, a world-scale type event, are there going to be more precognitive dreams of it?
It'd be an interesting study.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's the theory.
That it is almost an echo across time.
And the bigger the event, the louder the sound.
Okay.
Let's go to Deborah Ann on Skype.
Hello.
Hi, you were talking about wondering if people survived impact when they hit the bottom of falling dreams.
I've actually had a semi-reoccurring dream or sequence of dreams that have happened over a pretty good span of my life where I'm the passenger in a car, different car every time, different driver every time, different road every time, and it always goes off the cliff, straight down, Are you making a connection, Debra Ann, with anything in your life?
I actually do make the impact and then wake up.
Are you making a connection, Debra Ann, with anything in your life or are you worried that
this is precognitive?
No, neither.
I don't think I'm worried about it.
I don't really give much significance to dreams, but it scared the heck out of me when I was a kid.
Yeah.
It's literally been a reoccurring thing from about four years old till in my thirties.
I have it like every, I don't know, five, ten years or so.
Well, every five years or so.
Do you shy away from high places?
Yeah, well not like extremely.
I mean, I get kind of that woozy feeling looking over edges.
Right.
But it's not so much that I totally avoid looking over edges.
Well, my advice would be if you keep having that dream, stay the heck away from ledges.
Yeah, I do get pretty nervous when I'm driving as a passenger and we go over an edge.
We're driving by an edge.
That does make me pretty nervous.
Me too.
I've been to a lot of mountaintops and oh boy, that is scary and I don't even have dreams about it.
I just wanted to share.
Thanks.
Thank you very much.
Wow.
Really amazing.
Everybody is in on this.
There's no question about it.
Let's go to Phoenix on the phone.
You're on the air.
Yes.
Hello.
Hi.
Hello.
Okay.
Art, I can totally relate to your frustration dreams, the one you were talking about earlier.
You're not alone.
I don't understand it either, if you know what I'm talking about.
Oh, the sexual aspect.
Yes.
Yeah.
I could totally relate to that.
It happens every time, like a curse.
It is like a curse, actually.
And I wake up like, what?
There's got to be some kind of medical explanation for it.
I don't know.
I have no clue, but it's been that way for the longest time.
I know, but we've got a dream expert.
I don't.
Well, that's why I'm calling.
I got another thing.
I got actually two more quick things.
First thing, uh, second thing is, uh, you ain't, your guest isn't the only one who has survived after dying in a dream.
I've done it.
Yeah.
I've, I've had one that will probably stick with me for the rest of my life and basically quickly, um, I was just standing looking at a lightning storm outside and all of a sudden lights out.
And I wake up, but I'm dead, but I don't know it until I look in the mirror in the car with my brother and sister, you know, in the front.
And they're like, one minute he's here and the next minute he's gone.
And I was just like, I felt kind of relieved because I'm like, there is an afterlife.
Yeah.
You know, you know, this is like, wow, there is, you know, there is the hereafter.
So I don't have to worry about eating or living.
You know, like a human being anymore, but you know, that sounds kind of strange, but I'll never forget it.
I can't go into too much detail cause I don't want to spend too much time.
But the question, the biggest question is I have dreams.
I'm somebody else.
There's people in my dreams I don't recognize and it's not like a blank face when I see these people.
Okay.
It's like I'm somebody, but I'm not Richard.
Okay.
When you dream that you're someone else, do you ever see Richard?
Um, no, it's mostly because I'm relating to them.
I didn't look in the mirror like I did in my death dream, because when I looked in the mirror, I didn't see anything, you know, and I was like, wow, I'm not here, but I am.
But, um, in, in the, in the, in the other people dream, like when I'm somebody else, like in one dream, I killed somebody, I murdered somebody.
Wow.
And I put, I put them in a trunk and I've had this kind of dream a couple of times, but I put them in the trunk of a car and you know, I got rid of the car.
And I was really nervous about that.
Or I buried something, wrapped them in plastic and dug a hole and hid them somewhere so they couldn't be found.
I was always worried in my dream that somebody would find it.
Wow.
You know?
Sure.
And sometimes I have smells in my dream, which isn't that great.
And, you know, I can smell, you know, like, you know, one time when I dreamt I was dead, not the one I just told you about.
But I don't know what formaldehyde tastes like, but I woke up and I could taste this weird taste in my mouth.
I remember the smell from elementary school, and I'm like, why would I, you know, that's the one I had a lot of.
You know this guy who called a little while ago and wanted nightmares?
You need to get together with him.
I have dreams, like, I don't understand why I'm somebody else.
I was in the Marines, I don't know anything about being in the Marines or the Army, but I had a dream, they dug a hole, it was like a ditch, and the CIA would scream, get in that hole, get in there, and you had to swim, because there was still water to the other side to come out.
I don't know if that's a real thing, but I wouldn't doubt it, if there's such a thing, you know, to train somebody to swim underwater in the dark.
You know, it's stuff like that.
Sounds like steel training.
Okay, thank you very much for the call and the comment.
That's really something.
What do you think, Jillian, when you dream of murder and getting rid of bodies?
Oh yeah, you know what, Art?
I'm so glad you shared that one.
It was pretty gutsy to do, too, because that is so common.
That is a common recurring dream with personal variations.
It's called burying the body.
It is a common nightmare stress dream.
It usually repeats.
You're always trying to hide the evidence.
It's nothing to worry about.
It doesn't mean you're a serial killer.
It's usually about something in your life that you're tossing out that you should take a second look at to simplify it.
James went pretty far.
Take a taste of formaldehyde.
So that's a step up from telling off your boss for sure.
So if you want to have a dream like that, again there's no special key to it.
I'm going back to the poor fellow who wanted nightmares.
Yeah, that's not a common request, but I think that you could just ask for your dreams to have more of an edge and that would be a place to start if you wanted to look at some of your edgy material.
Well, this show, fall asleep with this show, do the job.
Scott, hello Scott on Skype.
Hey, great show.
I'm glad I don't have the dreams of the last guy.
Yeah.
But I used to, when I was in my 20s, I used to have a fair number of lucid dreams and they came about from keeping a dream diary.
And I could get conscious control over my actions within a dream setting, but, like, if I wanted to go practice doing something like skiing or, you know, whatever, I could never change to a different dream setting or, you know, get into the situation that I would like to have, you know, practiced.
You know, like rehearsal for real life type of thing.
Can you get good enough with enough practice to where you can do stuff like that, and how would you You know, manipulate your way into a different setting.
You want to start from the onset of sleep, Scott.
It's a lot easier to dreamwalk into the sport that you want to practice or the landscape that you want to be in than it is to already be in a movie that's halfway through and you want to change from the gangster scene in Chicago to practicing downhill skiing
somewhere.
That is really tricky to do and people don't have much luck with it.
What you want to do is either after you awaken from a dream in the middle of the night, you
have to go to the bathroom and get a drink of water or anything like that.
If you awaken and get into a new position, start thinking about the setting in which you want to have the lucid dream and travel towards it.
Some people will ride a horse towards their dreams, take a walk towards their dream as if your dream is located in a place and you are moving towards it.
When you get there, your dream will begin.
That's one way to program that.
Really, so are you consciously entering the dream as you're falling asleep then?
Yes, yes you are.
And you may even feel as though you are pushing through a little bit of a membrane or a little bit of a force field or as though you're, you know, when Art was talking about that sensation of walking through a wall in an Ubi, You might feel a little bit of resistance.
That's often described as you push into the dream realm.
But if you don't feel it, just imagine it.
Just go with it as if you were visualizing it, and you'll get there.
Okay.
I mean, I found keeping a dream diary was, for me, really the key to getting to where I could become lucid in my dreams.
Is there anything like that to do, you know, like if you wake up and You want to go back into it, should you track that sort of thing, too?
Just keeping some kind of a dream diary, even once a week, you know, one dream a week, that kind of thing, that's going to help enormously.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay, well, great show.
I'm really enjoying it.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for the call.
So a dream diary helps you in what way?
Oh, it helps you become, it gets that back and forth communication between your conscious mind and what's going on at the dreaming level.
And it's as though, you know, your dreaming mind is sending messages in a bottle, basically.
And you are now opening the messages and reading them and thinking, what could they mean?
Do they mean anything?
What is this?
And if you do that on a regular basis, you're going to become so aware of your dream state that you'll automatically become lucid.
Huh, that's amazing.
Really amazing.
Okay, uh, let's try going outside the country to Mario.
I also think down maybe, perhaps, in Australia.
Yeah, you're spot on, huh?
And how are you doing?
Hi!
Lovely to hear from you both.
I would actually love to get your interpretation of probably the most profound experience that I've had in my life with regards to dreaming and, yeah, just see what your thoughts are.
The interesting part is it's actually manifested physical, like a phantom sensation in real life every time I even describe or talk about the experience.
And it happened roughly about 10 years ago, and I was overseas at the time.
And I was in a courtyard, and my back was up against a large concrete pillar.
And if I looked to my left, my family was all sort of there, roughly about maybe 10 feet away, and they all sort of had this look of horror on their faces.
And then, as I start to turn my head to look what's in front of me, I notice the hat man.
And to make things even more spooky, he was actually holding a revolver and pointing it directly at my head.
Before I knew it, everything just went black and I felt this tremendous pain of like a shattering sense of electricity just going from my head to every single nerve that I have.
And then everything was just silence and black.
Then I slowly started to hear a whistling of the wind, which started turning into howling.
And then these kind of like spotlights were floating around everywhere, but you couldn't tell what they were coming from.
Then a giant flash happened and I'm in this wormhole looking thing travelling up faster and faster and it sounds just like when you go to the airshow and you hear the jets screaming past you.
Just roaring.
And I'm getting... I feel like I'm travelling to the end and I notice another flash of light.
And as I look around me, there's blackness, but below my feet I can see the world, and it's slowly shrinking, and I can see, from what I later find out, the continent of Hawaii.
And I realise at that point that I've died.
Well, it's actually just an island.
Yeah, and as I'm sort of coming to that realisation, an overwhelming sense of just freedom, freedom of Not having to do anything, like you don't have to eat, you don't have to sleep, you don't have to worry about money, just really nothing like I've ever experienced before.
Doctor, is what he's describing out of body or a dream?
Well, it's hard to say.
I think it's a dream.
I think it's a dream at this point, but that's just my opinion.
Yeah, no, that's fair enough.
I did know that for the next few days I wanted to go back to that sense of freedom, but it was... you almost feel like, in a way, sort of sad that you can't get back there.
Yeah?
Yeah, I just couldn't... I was just like, oh yeah, life seems kind of a bit dull now.
Oh!
Well, what was the sensation that comes to you that you can remember even now as you describe it?
Every time, guaranteed.
It's like a push-pull sensation, almost like when you have two magnets that are opposing each other.
And the sensation is directly where I felt like the bullet had entered into my head.
Oh my!
Yeah.
Every time, guaranteed.
And it sounds like he had a NDE experience to go with it.
Yeah, it's confusing because I wasn't sure who the best guest to call would be, but I feel like Gillian seems to be someone that might be able to shed some light on it, because you have shadow people, NDE, potentially OBE, so it's a lot going on.
It is, it is a lot.
It's kind of like a compilation of your show, Art.
We've got everything here, except Mothman.
We've got a show coming up on that.
Do ya?
We'll see, there you go.
So what's your question, Mario?
Did you want to see how this all ties together?
Yeah, I'm just curious.
I know that's a lot maybe to take in, and probably you might not be able to give a detailed answer, but any sort of interpretation that you'd be able to gather from any of that?
Well, here's the bottom line with interpreting any dream.
The messaging of the dream, one of the values of the dream, is what you take away from it.
So you don't have to mess around with every single symbol, Or, you know, what triggered it?
Just what's your takeaway?
And it's clear that your takeaway on this dream was kind of a spiritual one, basically, wasn't it?
Right.
He's gone now, but right.
Yeah.
To me, it sounded like a terror dream or a nightmare, if you will, and then death and then moving somewhere after death.
That's what it sounded like to me.
Maybe I've been doing this show too long, but you know, he mentioned a wormhole, traveling through a wormhole.
That sounds kind of like an after-death deal.
Yeah, it does, for all intents and purposes, exactly, a near-death experience, with the accompanying kind of upliftment that people sometimes report.
Yes, okay.
Let's go to the lines.
Dennis in Massachusetts, I think?
Yes, Dennis, Massachusetts.
I'm Joe.
I wanted to, well, earlier caller touched upon levitating.
Yes.
And this is a common theme in many of my dreams.
You know, to get around instead of just walking like everybody else, I like hover like a foot off the ground.
And I just, I move around that way and sometimes I could go a little higher up in the air and people look at me and say, wow, how do you do that?
And I say, well, I've always been able to do that.
And that's all I really remember from it.
That's enough.
I'd love to do that.
That sounds like fun.
I know maybe it's, dreams are supposed to be symbolic, right?
Well, a lot of them are symbolic, Jo.
That's a great answer.
Well, you know, you probably do in a metaphorical sense.
I could levitate in real life.
Yeah, well you probably do in a metaphorical sense.
There is something about your perspective or your way of going through life that is
not just the ordinary way.
And it probably gives you a little bit of a different perspective.
That would be what I would work with, with that symbolism.
Joe, I can one-up you a little bit.
I think when I was four years old or so, I was able to levitate.
Really?
Yeah, really.
I'm sure that I'm full of it, but I remember being able to levitate.
What can I tell you?
I mean, in real life.
Now, maybe it was a dream.
Who knows?
But I'm telling you, I think I did do it when I was really young.
Everybody hold tight.
And Joe, thank you very much for the call.
And we'll be back.
This is Midnight.
At the midnight moon, was drifting through the laziest way of the tree.
I saw the look in your eyes, looking into the mine, and seeing what you wanted to see.
I'd like to know, cause here I go again.
I love you.
Midnight in the Desert.
Exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network with Art Bell.
Invite you to call now.
1-952-CALL-ART.
That's 1-952-225-5278.
With regard to that last commercial, straight-edge screwdrivers don't bother me a bit.
Terrified of Phillips, though.
They've got kind of a... otherworldly tip to them, right?
Ha!
Ha!
Just kidding.
Um, alright, Doctor.
Welcome back.
Um...
And my guest is, so that you all know, Dr. Jillian Holloway.
We're talking about dreams.
And there is a type of dream I have that is really annoying, Doctor, and it is annoying.
In other words, I wake up, usually having to use the restroom, right?
And I wake up from the dream and I say, that was annoying, that was frustrating, that dream really There's a word for it that I don't want to use.
It was awful.
In other words, I had to work.
I was trying to attain some goal that I couldn't attain, and I was just frustrated as hell.
And then I woke up and I said, I'm not going for that one again.
And when I came back to bed, I did what you suggested, turned over the other way, had a restful night for the rest of the night.
That's happened to me quite a number of times.
Is that normal?
Yeah, actually it is.
I mean, what you're bringing up is one of the secrets to dream re-entry, which is going back into the same dream, or dream avoidance, where you want to go into completely another one.
That's right.
I've had it with that dream.
Go away!
Yeah.
Your physical position has a great deal to do with going back into the same dreamscape.
So if you don't want to go there, change your position as much as you can.
Why does it have anything to do with it?
We are not sure.
We don't know so much about the brain.
I guess we don't know.
Out of the country again with Alex somewhere.
Hello, Alex.
Hello, Alex.
Going once.
Whoops.
Going twice.
Alex is there, but I guess he's not hearing us.
Too bad.
Hello?
Hello, Alex.
Hello?
Yes, hello, Alex.
Hi, how are you doing?
I'm doing OK.
Why?
Alex from London here.
London?
Oh, OK.
It's early there.
You need more coffee.
I was driving to work at the moment.
Oh, OK.
I thought I'd call in.
OK.
Basically, I had a dream.
It's just a short one.
I saw this big iron door.
It had loads of cogs and bolts on it, and it was all unfolding.
and all of a sudden it opened up and then I woke up and I was thinking, wow, that's weird.
Then later on that day, I was watching a movie and there it was, that exact iron door,
exactly as I saw it in the dream, you know, in front of me.
So very strange, I had some weird dream where I actually saw the future for the next day.
And I can't explain it.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, that's pretty common.
And it does happen.
You're absolutely right.
Carl Jung said that we borrow images from the future sometimes just as easily as we borrow images from the past.
That's cool.
Yeah, yeah.
And sometimes they're meaningful and sometimes they're not as personally meaningful.
So you need to always check for that.
See if there's a door opening in your own life that looked like it was pretty tough.
Now it's flying open.
If that doesn't make sense to you, then it might have been more of a fun snapshot of the future.
But you always want to check for that.
A fun snapshot of the future.
Yeah, it happens all the time.
See, if we remembered all of our dreams, we would all notice this happening a couple of times a week.
It is that common.
So you think keeping a dream diary is a good way to do it?
I think it is really the ticket.
Yes, I do.
Generally, if you don't write it down, you're going to forget it pretty soon, too.
You know, real life takes over completely and the dream just fades away.
All right, here comes Andrew somewhere or another.
Hi, Andrew.
Hi, Andrew from Seattle.
Thank you for taking my call.
Good evening, Art, and good evening, Doctor.
Hi.
I have a quick comment and then a question about a reoccurring dream that I have.
Art, I will say that yes, I do occasionally fall asleep to your show.
At night.
And a few, several weeks ago, you had someone on who had recorded the sounds of the Sasquatch talking to one another.
Oh, yes.
And I had a very rude awakening when those audio tapes came on.
Yeah, I bet.
Yeah, that was very disturbing.
I do have a Time Travelers account, though, so I went back and listened to the whole show.
So you could be disturbed again.
Let's be a little bit less disturbed and put it more in context.
Not exactly when doves cry.
No, exactly.
So, a reoccurring dream that I have about two or three, every couple, three months, I discover a secret passage in my house that leads to a ladder, which ultimately leads to my attic.
The attic space is much larger than the actual attic in my house.
It's composed of a lot of deteriorating lath and plaster.
There's holes in the ceiling, there's holes in the roof where the rain is getting in.
And several creatures living in the attic.
Hide behind the Jameson.
Yeah.
I don't know if this is a stress-induced dream.
Like I said, I have it every few months, but it's always typically the same, where I discover the secret passage leads into the attic, holes in the roof, and creatures living up there.
Uh-huh.
Any comments?
Well, my comment would be that sounded like a pretty nervous laugh to me.
Yeah, maybe.
Jillian?
Real quickly, how long have you been having it?
A couple years?
Hold on, caller.
Hold on.
Question.
Go ahead, Jillian.
I just want to know how long, if you can remember how long you've been having it.
A year or two years?
Do you know?
Um, at least 20.
Oh my.
20?
Yeah.
Really?
Yeah.
This has been going on for quite a long time.
And like I said, at least I haven't found any toys in my attic.
Well, now I see why you had the nervous laugh.
That's serious.
That probably really means something.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, when dreams recur over the life span, then they're more about an enduring question that we're trying to solve.
We're trying to find the answer to a puzzle that we're taking with us throughout our life.
So it doesn't mean it's something real, real bad by any means, but it does mean it's something that is worth your while if you could resolve.
resolve it.
It would improve matters.
So the discovery of something in a house that leads to a room or something that is unusual
that is a very, very common theme.
We believe that the house represents yourself and your life and the secret thing represents
something in your life that you would be better off to bring out into the light of day.
Again, it's usually not a secret skeleton in your closet.
It's just usually something that's been relegated to the margins because we get really busy
and we've learned how to cope in a certain way.
So, it might help to think about your life for the last 20 years, and if there's a question that you just haven't had time to deal with, it's usually a matter of time and priorities, not a matter of horrific secrets.
Certainly.
Okay?
Okay?
Thank you!
Alright, thanks for calling.
You're very welcome.
Let's go here, I guess, to Portland, Oregon, KXL territory.
It's going well.
Um, I have a question.
I, um, had a few dreams where it is a reoccurring or stacking up dream where I'm in one dream and it leads into the next and the next, but it's by traumatic endings.
Like, say I had the one where, like, you're in a car with somebody and they crash and then you go flying and then you hit something, but instead of waking up, you wake up in the dream into another dream.
And then it goes into like I'm drowning or I'm underwater and I am navigating and it's
like my family's there and it's like my friends and all this stuff but it goes into like five
dreams in one dream.
Holy mackerel.
And do you know any, I mean what's your take on that?
I've never even heard of that.
Doctor, can you do that?
Dreams within dreams within dreams?
Oh sure, sure, yeah.
Well one of the things that will help you is if you can keep a dream journal.
That's going to calm down the chaos effect.
And we do know that a lot of times when your mind is trying to address a stress or solve a puzzle or get you prepared for something, it will focus in different dramas, different little movie vignettes, but you're working out the same problem over and over again.
Whether you're falling off a cliff or drowning or the elevator doesn't stop and you crash, it doesn't matter what the drama is, you're working on the same problem.
So I wouldn't be too disturbed about that collapsing drama movie that you find yourself in, but try to look at the symbolism and whether there's just too much going on or whether there's a lot of chaos or things feel out of control or whether you're the lone ranger, heroic person in your family or group.
What was that?
That's what it was.
It got to a point where we were sitting in a restaurant and I was sitting with my sister and my mom.
These guys came in and they, one of them, like, smacked my sister and it turned into, like, this heroic kind of, I don't know what to say, like a Superman kind of thing, but it was weird.
I mean, like, I remember every part of this whole dream.
And that's the weird thing, it's been bothering me ever since.
Mm-hmm.
So, he's, it's a hero dream.
I get it.
Well, it is in there.
You know, we go through certain phases in our lifespan where we tend to have these hyper-dramatic, hyper-violent dreams.
And they aren't really something to worry about.
But again, the more you work with your dreams, read about them, talk to people about their dreams, the more they'll kind of calm down and become more overtly meaningful and less melodramatic.
Okay.
Next time you go out to buy a coat, instead of getting a coat, get a red cape.
See if your life improves.
Well, this show's pretty good, and I think... Thank you.
Thank you.
All right, so let's go to... Is it Ren?
Is that correct?
Hello, Ren.
Ren.
R-E-N is Ren, right?
Yes.
Okay.
Proceed.
Thank you.
I'm in Scotts Valley, California.
Uh, great to have you back, Art.
I talked to you once before, even though you got mad and hung up on me, but that's another story.
Alright, well I've got my finger close to the button, so go ahead.
A few minutes ago you had a call from a man who claimed that he had a recurring dream
over the course of 20 years, and that really seemed to surprise your guest.
And me.
I'm 62 now, and ever since my 18th year, I've had off and on a recurring dream, which I often feel has become its own, might be its own particular category of dream.
it's when I was 18 my father died which is the threshold there and the dream as I'm sure is
very very common for a lot of people is that my father was still alive which surprised us.
You know, the hospital made a mistake.
He was still there.
He met, separated from the family and moved to someplace else.
And there was a certain yearning to have him back.
Of course.
Uh, but, but, but I really, over the course of apparently at least two or three decades, I was having this dream consistently Um, and it, it almost created its own reality in my sleeping.
What was, excuse me, what was the dream?
That your dad was still alive?
He was still alive in spite of this, some obscure notion that he had died.
But then he came back.
Or that somehow his death didn't count.
But the odd thing about this dream is that it's recurring over the course of several decades.
And just a few years ago, it occurred to me that I was having this dream off and on since my 18th year.
So the dream had become almost institutionalized in its own way.
The reality of it, the storyline, And I dreamt that it was, you know, very real.
Okay, well, quick question.
Were you dreaming that your dad was visiting you, you know, in the current time or was it the storyline consistently just that there was a mistake?
And he was... There was not a lot of contact with my father in the course of these dreams.
It was just believing that he was out there and that I was supposed to meet up with him, we're supposed to go to work, you know, because I worked with him in his hardware store.
Well, maybe you were closer to him than you think you were, and the psychological effect of his death was more than you think it was.
We were never terribly close in reality, and so there was this concrete...
Well, maybe you were closer to him than you think you were, and the psychological effect of his death was more than you
think it was.
Anyway, I'm not an analyst, but that's kind of been my guess. What do you think, Doctor?
That's a really interesting one, and I'm glad you brought it up.
It's called, It's All a Mistake.
And that's a very common grief dream.
That's not considered a visitation, but rather a process, a personal process dream.
And because it's taken place over so many years, it has become a part of your psychic, and I'm sure it's emblematic for a combination of things for you.
It's a real marker, and I think you sense that from the tone of your voice as you describe it.
Sure.
Okay, um, not a lot of time here, gee.
Uh, let's go to the phones, and hello, you're on the air.
Hello?
Going once, going... Hello?
Yes, hello?
Hi?
Yeah, there's something wrong with your connection, sir.
Okay, can you hear me?
This is David.
I hear you, David, but there's something horribly noisy.
Oh, no, I'm truck driving right now.
You're in a truck.
You're in a truck.
I want to hear the horn.
Okay, hold on here.
Alright, I buy it.
Proceed.
Okay, yeah.
Hey, Art.
I've been listening to you since the early 90s, man.
You're my hero.
I thank you.
Put that out there.
And, Doctor, what a great show.
I've never called before, and I built up the nerve to finally call.
I wanted to share two quick dreams.
One I time-traveled, where I hadn't even been born in this dream, but I was speaking to friends and told them I'm not alive, but write down this phone number.
This phone number doesn't exist.
Call this number in 30 years.
I'm about to wake up.
Listen, my friend, I am so sorry to do this to you, but we are out of time.
Hold on the line now.
Don't go anywhere.
Stay right there, okay?
Okay, thank you.
Don't hang up.
Don't hang up.
Dr. Holloway, I want to thank you so, so very much for a wonderful program.
And I think we've got links to your website and all that up there, don't we?
Yes.
Yes, you do.
Super.
It's just been a real treat, Art.
You and your people.
I love you all.
Thank you, and let us do it again sometime.
There's no doubt of that, I'm sure.
All right.
Take care.
Take care.
Dr. Jillian Holloway.
Wow!
That's hot stuff.
All right.
I've decided that we need a new good night for the world.
We're all 25 time zones out there.
We need my friend in a truck.
And by the way, what are you listening to in that truck?
What am I listening to?
Oh, my iPhone.
Your iPhone, okay.
What I'd like you to do is say, goodnight all 25 time zones and the world.
Goodnight all 25 time zones and the world.
Alright, brother.
Thank you all, and yeah, have a good night.
Oh, oh, don't forget, tomorrow night, open lines, anything goes.