Dave Paulides, a former law enforcement officer and tech executive, examines 1,600+ documented vanishings in U.S. national parks—often with no scent trails, missing clothing, or unexplained movement near cliffs—while exposing NPS’s $34K FOIA charges and refusal to release records despite evidence of cover-ups like Dennis Martin’s 1962 disappearance, where a park ranger’s sighting was dismissed and an FBI agent later died. Cases like Morgan Heimer (2015) and Dior Koontz Jr. (2017) defy logic, with toddlers found miles from disappearance points, suggesting either advanced deception or phenomena beyond conventional explanation. Paulides’ research implicates systemic failures, not just isolated incidents, leaving families and researchers in the dark despite persistent patterns across decades. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American subjects, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be on God's Green Earth.
I'm mostly green anyway.
In all those time zones, each and everyone covered like a blanket by this program, which we call midnight in the desert for a good reason.
That's where we are in the desert.
Die and everything all around.
Serious desert.
Door the hill from Area 51.
Rules of the program are simple.
There are only two.
No bad language.
We don't need that, and only one call per show.
That's all we need.
And so those are the rules.
Now, the big news of the day is Stonehenge.
Holy mackerel, have you seen what's going on at Stonehenge?
There was an archaeological group working in the Stonehenge area, you know, using ground-penetrating radar and looking for whatever might be there in addition to Stonehenge.
And I guess there have been other crews there previously, never found anything.
But this group goes, they're about ready to pack up, pack it in, and go home because they didn't find anything, like the other groups.
And then all of a sudden, they found this incredible array of rocks, just like the Stonehenge rocks, some up to, what, 10 feet high or higher?
A hundred of them or more arranged in what appears to be a kind of a semicircle around Stonehenge.
Now, this is really big stuff.
If you want to see more about it, artbell.com.
We've got the story up there.
It is just today breaking.
Other news, I guess, almost worth noting.
It has been a summer of chaotic activity politically.
We've got Donald Trump.
We've got a socialist, Bernie Sanders, ripping up Hillary.
It is upside down as it is, and then of course Joe Biden, maybe, as upside down as it has ever been in American politics.
God bless them.
The people have had enough.
Well, it was supposed to be their first step to freedom from places like Syria where they'd be killed.
But now thousands upon thousands of migrants are mired in despair, anger, and frustration in Western Europe.
It's just a mess.
They're on an island now, a Greek island.
They're trying to get to mainland Greece so they can continue their journey.
By the way, Germany has said they will take them in.
That's where they're trying to go.
I just have one other quick note here at the beginning, and I want you to listen to this.
And it doesn't sound overly strange.
I get a lot of emails from people.
This is from a French man from Quebec.
And it's not really that strange, but it is.
He said, Arn, I had a strange encounter when I was about 21, back in 99.
I was working at a gas station.
Finishing my shift when a family of four with two children, boy and a girl, came in.
First glance, they seemed normal.
But the children had blonde, darn near white hair.
While I was looking at them, they both turned in my direction at the same time and stared at me in a silent but very intense way for about five seconds, but it felt much longer.
They had big blue eyes with large pupils, and I mean one and a half to two times what we would consider normal.
They had both the same height.
Nobody in the store seemed to notice them after they left.
The parents didn't look a bit like them.
Brown hair, normal eyes.
Have you ever heard of any story like this?
Sorry for the spelling.
I speak French.
David.
And I don't know why that hit me.
It just did.
It's weird.
And thank you, David.
Maybe we'll get some feedback and proceed.
Well, I'm not sure where we would proceed with something like that, but maybe that's what we'll do.
All right, coming up in a moment, I know a lot of you have been awaiting David Pallades.
He's here.
David received his undergraduate and graduate degrees from the University of San Francisco and has a professional background that includes 20 years in law enforcement and senior executive positions in the technology sector.
In 2010, it seems a ranger at a national park informed him of a series of unusual disappearances that occurred in national parks, right?
And this started an investigation into people that have vanished in national parks and forests.
The result was David has now written five books, all entitled Missing 411.
Western U.S., Eastern U.S., North America and Beyond.
The Devils in the Details would be his latest.
Released August 30th, Missing 411, a sobering coincidence.
So when we come back, David Polides, and we'll get into all of this and so much more.
It's a pleasure to be with you as we begin another week of Midnight in the Desert.
Better.
Better audio, better content, more content.
just better, better, better, better.
unidentified
Music by Ben Thede Take a walk on the wildlife of midnight.
From the Kingdom of Nine.
This is midnight in the desert.
With our best, please call control at 1-952-225-5278.
I don't listen to other talk show hosts because I'm always scared that I'm going to pick up something from them and then subconsciously grab onto it and repeat it, and I don't want to do that.
So I'm a neophyte in terms of, you know, I have a general idea of what you talk about, but if somebody was brand new like me, how would you start with them?
I would say that I was in a national park doing research on a peripheral topic one time.
I was getting followed around the park by a couple of park rangers.
I was interviewing contractors at the park about something else.
At the end of the day, I left the park.
A couple hours later, I get a knock on my door.
It's one of those park rangers in plain clothes, and he says, Dave, I know who you are.
I know your background, and I have some information that somebody like you ought to get a hold of.
So I invited him in, spoke to him for several hours, and he stated that during the last several rounds that he had been at different parks in his career, Rangers had talked about disappearing people.
And he said that at the front end, there's always seven to ten days where there's a lot of exposure, a lot of press, a lot of big search efforts.
And at the end of that period of time, there's nothing.
There's no follow-up.
There's no other effort to find the person.
In fact, there's nothing that they could find after that.
And they themselves tried to find information about the people, and they were somehow restricted in getting much of the information they were looking for.
And he said that the other part of it was that some of the locations that the people disappeared didn't make a lot of sense to him.
And he said sometimes they disappear right in the middle of humanity in a park, and other times they disappear in the middle of nowhere, but there was no consistency that he could tell from it.
But the consistent part that he was concerned about, and other rangers he stated, were concerned about, was the lack of follow-up, the lack of effort after the people disappeared, the lack of accountability after they disappeared, etc.
So the National Park Service has a group of between 600 and 700 full-time sworn law enforcement officers that are trained by the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.
These people are very well trained, probably better than half the police officers in the United States.
These people are full-time law enforcement rangers in the park carrying guns with the responsibility of law enforcement.
They have a hierarchy inside the park service of chiefs, directors, assistant directors, etc.
They understand policing very well.
They understand the sense of accountability.
They're a large organization, and you see them at the park every once in a while driving around.
They write tickets, they make arrests, and they have a division inside of them called Special Agents.
And the special agents are the detectives inside the Park Service that do the follow-up and the detective work.
I didn't understand that at the beginning, but then after I started to look into it, it becomes pretty obvious the mentality and kind of the approach with the Park Service.
If you just Google search National Park employees' complaints, let's say, there's an aura inside that system that isn't healthy.
And the way they treat their own employees is pretty despicable.
Just a quick story.
There was a park ranger that disappeared in Arizona.
He was never found.
They refused to pay that ranger's wife his salary and his benefits, saying he just left the park.
Well, he's never been found.
And finally, she had to go to federal court to sue him for the benefits.
And what I tell every group that I speak to is that the frontline rangers that you see that are showing you around the park and helping you with botany and fisheries, et cetera, they're salt of the earth people.
This kind of mentality and the responses we got from our Freedom of Information Act requests are policies made by the High Administration in the parks.
And knowing a little bit about the law, that's an inappropriate question to ask anybody.
And in fact, in the Freedom of Information Act, it says that they can't ask that question and use it as a determining factor if they give you the information.
And I asked them, I said, well, why are you even asking me?
It's a mundane request.
I'm just interested.
And he goes, I need to know.
I said, we're just doing research.
And he says, well, we don't have any lists.
And I said, well, what do you mean you don't have any lists?
And he says, we don't keep track of missing people inside our parks.
And I said, how can that be?
And he says, nope, we don't have any lists.
Well, at the time, I was a published author.
So I said, okay, I want an author's exemption because I'm published.
And so from that point, I said, okay, well, then tell me how much money it's going to cost me to get the list from Yosemite and from your entire system.
She goes, okay, I'll get back to you.
Another four or five weeks come by.
She calls me back and she says, Dave, well, the list from Yosemite is going to cost you $34,000.
Well, they told me that it would take a supervisor earning $65 an hour going to each one of these locations or them contracting it out at these various locations, them going through their files and digging through their files, trying to find missing persons' cases.
Well, it's a real slippery slope, Art, because after digging through the policies and procedures and how the National Park handles missing people, after 10 years, they have a category called missing, presumed dead, which technically, after 10 years, you're no longer missing.
And I decided, along with a series of other people, that what we would do is we would one by one do the best we could going through archives and finding the number of missing people at the different locations, national parks, monuments, etc.
And at this point, it branched out to also U.S. National Forest because a lot of things happened right on that periphery.
And we're at about 1,600 people right now in North America.
If you take that number and you apply it to the number of people that visit our national parks by percentage, and then you look at North America, let's say, because we can probably get the stats best for North America, and compare it to the number of people missing in North America for any given year, do we see a difference?
So after reading thousands of reports and going over many, many articles and just grabbing anything we can, we started to find that certain things come out at you that are abnormal.
And we first set the criteria at rural disappearances, no suspects on the case.
The person can have a history of mental illness.
It can't be a voluntary disappearance.
There's no evidence of an animal attack or human predation.
And one of the biggies is lack of scent by the canines or the bloodhounds that came to the scene.
They can't find a scent trail of the victim.
Many, many of the times, the victim, if they're found alive or deceased, they're missing clothing or shoes.
Depending on the geographical area they disappeared, boulder fields and berries are involved.
And soon after the victim disappears, bad weather is often associated with the disappearance.
If the victim is found, they're often found near creeks, rivers, and bodies of water.
And the majority of the incidents occur in a time frame between 4 to 5 p.m. or slightly later.
If the missing is located, they are often found unconscious or semi-conscious.
And later on when they're questioned, the majority of time, these victims can't remember what happened, where they went, or how they disappeared.
And then one of the last things is that there's a geographical clustering of these people.
There's 52 clusters of missing people in North America.
And this is something that surprised us because when you're dealing with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, you don't realize it until you put a map on the wall and start putting pins on it where they start to fall out.
So two ends of the scale of the intellectual scale, and that's the scientists you mentioned, very bright people, and then autistic people and people at the other end of the scale, but not so much in the middle.
Well, when the people are found, whether they're deceased or alive, and they go through either an autopsy or they go through a doctor's examination, the other thing on this is that many times the medical examiner, if they find the person, if we find them, they can't determine the cause of death, which is pretty strange.
Sure, but if there's ever any inclination that that person had a mental illness or was about to commit suicide, it wouldn't be one of the cases that we considered or wrote about.
I mean, that's subjective, but, you know, if you've got something wrong with you, then, of course, it's a likelihood.
Another thing that occurred to me that I want to ask you about is the possibility, and I haven't actually heard the details of any of these cases yet, and I want to do that, but does any of this lead you to the conclusion that we could be dealing with a serial killer or even a series of serial killers?
So if I could just back up a little bit, when you talk about people who want to commit suicide, there's large numbers in the books that I write about that are very young children.
And so that issue of suicide or voluntary disappearance is kind of washed away.
And if you remember that if you just stick to those profile points I gave you, no scent, they bring in professional trackers, there's no track that they can find, the people don't call for help, it's like they have vanished completely.
There is no track to follow.
There is no scent.
Sometimes the canines will walk in a circle and lay down.
Sometimes they look at the trail and they just don't want anything to do with it.
Well, let's start with some this summer that happened that are right on key.
Talk about Grand Canyon National Park, and there was a group of people going down the river with a tour company floating down the Colorado.
They're about four or five days in, and they always stop at this one place that has a small creek that flows into the Colorado.
They let everybody get out.
They walk up this creek, not very far, a couple hundred yards, and there's a waterfall that goes into this deep pond.
People jump off the rock into the little water pool, and then they all walk back after a couple hours to the boats, and they go further down the river.
Well, Morgan Heimer was one of the tour guides, and he was in his first year from the University of Wyoming, 22 years old, a stellar kid.
June 2nd, 2015, the group stops four or five days in, far outside the normal bounds of the park.
I mean, they were really deep in there.
And the group gets out, and they walk up to this pool, they have fun, and Morgan is the last person in line as they're walking back.
He's wearing his life preserver, he's carrying a water bottle, and the creek is so small that people said you could wait across it without it coming up to your waist.
Make a long story short, everyone gets back, Morgan doesn't come back.
Someone from that company called me and told me the details that I'm telling you now that A lot of it didn't become public.
But they said that they were absolutely baffled what happened to him because it makes no sense that he could go anywhere.
Canyon walls were steep.
They got out their satellite phone.
They called for help.
Next, that night, late, the National Park Service shows up.
They search for a few days.
They don't find anything.
He's never been found.
Now, Roger Marsh from MUFON read a couple of my books, and he wrote an article for the Huffington Post called Don't Be Last in Line.
Because many of the stories in my books involve people that are last in line or first in line on a hike and get out of sight momentarily and disappear and are gone.
There's a complete absence of any yells for help, calls for help in these cases that we're talking about right now.
Now, some of the other things that have happened over the years, there is some indication that something really strange is going on because the person happened to be on the phone with another individual at the time they disappeared.
In these cases that we're talking about right here, there's nothing.
Well, that's a million-dollar question that I ask myself all the time.
And the reality is, is that you've got to understand the mentality of the search and rescue people.
They don't think anything strange is going on.
They don't think anything unusual has happened.
They just think the person's missing.
And many times the news broadcast will show somebody walking back with no shoes, and nobody ever thinks to ask them what happened or thinks to say, how did you lose your shoes?
The question is not asked.
Because these people are not criminal investigators.
They're not thinking along the lines that you and I are right now.
And I don't blame them for that because search and rescue people, 95% of them are volunteers.
I can tell you that we're in the middle right now of making a film about a number of these disappearances.
And we met a family at Mesa Verde National Park, and they told us a story about their dad who disappeared.
And while we were in the park, we were with the victim's family, and they wanted us to interview the chief park ranger and the superintendent about the disappearance.
And these people went to the front desk, and those two individuals would not even come to the front desk and talk to those people.
They had an assistant come up and said, well, they're unavailable.
And they said, well, when can we talk to them?
Well, they're not available right now.
And that type of mentality towards a victim's family when they lost their dad in that park was absolutely unbelievable.
We were actually at Rocky Mountain National Park on a peripheral issue, and I'm in this little satellite office on the way up to one of the mountain climbing sites.
And I see a table with four individuals, older guys, sitting around talking.
And they talk like they were cops, but they were all in plain clothes.
And I told my friend I was with, I said, hey, we're waiting right here.
I'm not going anywhere.
I've got to talk to one of these guys.
One of them walks out.
I meet him in the parking lot.
I introduce myself.
He goes, oh, my name is so-and-so.
I'm a retired special agent from the Park Service.
I'm thinking, oh, I hit the glory hole right here.
We ended up talking for a couple hours in the parking lot, and I explained all the issues I'd had with the Park Service and how they had obstructed, delayed, done everything they could.
And I said, how do you account for that?
And he said, Dave, it's very easy.
He says, a complete lack of integrity.
And he went in, and he told me a story about an investigation he was doing into a park superintendent about high criminal felony case.
And he got a call from Washington, just said, just drop it, leave it alone, walk away.
And he goes, Dave, that's the way the Park Service works.
I mean, go ahead and hit me with a couple of other cases.
You would think that with some of the weirdness you're describing, it would have caused other investigators, paranormal-type people at this point, to jump in and begin investigating and looking for signs of Bigfoot or some wolfman or God knows what.
So proceed.
I'm told you have a lot of cases, and I'm interested in how weird they really are.
June 9th, 2015, Churakahua National Monument, jurisdiction of the National Park Service.
A 44-year-old woman with the mental capacity of a five-year-old is with her dad, who's a physician, and her mom.
They're in the motorhome of their dad.
They stop at the monument.
And the girl gets out with her mom, and they go to the restroom.
The mom goes to the restroom, and so does the girl.
The girl leaves early to go back to the motorhome.
The dad's waiting there, not far away.
She never comes back.
Mom comes back.
They said, well, let's look around.
They look around.
They can't find her.
They call for a National Park Ranger and a search starts.
Now, what's interesting about, first of all, her name was Janet Castrajan.
She's never been found.
That was this year, June 9th.
What's interesting about this, this is the same location in January 13th, 1980, the only National Park Ranger to ever disappear on duty and never be found, Paul Fugier disappeared.
So how many cases, I mean, we've got the 44-year-old woman, we've got the park ranger, we've got how many other people in similar circumstances that just flat disappear?
Well, that's what they asked the Marine that found him.
And he said, you know, I'm not an expert on that.
I don't want to comment.
And I did a huge archive search on this.
The Sheriff's Department doesn't have the report anymore.
And in the archives, there was never anything on the cause of death or anything about David and the disappearance other than the facts I just gave you.
Now, I do tell people that the trail up the side of that mountain from where he was camping, there was nothing on the side of that mountain.
It was a granite wall with a trail of switchbacks.
So if he was standing on that mountain, anybody could see him walking the switchbacks going up.
So in my books, I explain this because at the back of every other book, there's a complete list of all the missing from that book, the dates they went missing, the locations, states, etc.
There's one thing about these disappearances is that if there were five of them in one summer in one location, everyone would jump all over it.
But there's a distinct lack of consecutive disappearances in one location.
I call it the hopscotch effect.
You know, it may happen in Yosemite now, and then it happens in Crater Lake National Park in a month, and then it may happen in Great Smoky Mountains National Park in another month.
But having a series in a row in one location does not happen.
Numbers-wise, if you look at the number of years that you've researched thus far, is there any way at all to say, you know what, in 1999 or 2000, we had a real peak of this, or in 2015 we're having a real peak of this, or are those records just not available?
Probably the one location that sticks out more than anything else is from the late 1920s to the late 1940s, more young children in that age bracket between two and eight disappeared in Pennsylvania than in any other time or any other location I've ever seen.
So one thing I like to do is I like to be a fact-oriented guy and let the facts take you where you want to go.
But I won't go out on that limb because I've got to admit, I'm not an expert in all these different areas.
And when I go out and next week I'm going to go meet a family of one of these missing people, a recent one, I don't want them reading about me saying I am claiming some far-out crypto subject did this because my credibility in front of that family is going to be trashed and they won't want to talk to me.
I want them to use the knowledge I have and use it to their benefit, but I don't want that compromised on a topic they know little or nothing about.
But when you lay these cases out again and again and again and again with these facts that seem so impossible, for the rest of us not to jump to these conclusions is rather difficult because you just make it impossible.
I mean, somebody just cannot disappear without a body being found, without a scent being around, just gone.
You might as well have called it, I don't know, not a trace 401 or anything else.
It's just because that's what it is.
Not a trace of these people.
They just are as though they disappeared or they were, heaven help us from saying it, taken up like a cow by a UFO.
One thing I don't do is I don't minimize anything anyone says.
And I have learned so much in six years from people talking to me and telling me their own thoughts and opinions about what's going on.
I mean, I've had eight or nine, maybe ten thesis-length explanations from people who are 100% positive that they know what's going on here.
Now, obviously, none of them are right.
But the truth of the matter is, is that I've learned a lot from this because there's parts of all of their thoughts that do make sense.
But then there's other parts that are completely impossible.
And when I wrote the first book, Eastern and Western U.S., came out almost simultaneously, you know, there was a certain level of evidence that you could look at.
And as you keep going forward, you start to realize, well, what May have been applicable in the first book, sure isn't applicable now because this tire that we're working at, there's like three spokes in that tire right now.
And I'm guessing in four or five years, there's going to be more spokes in that tire that are going to cause much more of a conundrum in my thinking about what's really going on versus what I may have thought at that first book.
As you write book after book after book about national parks, the National Park Service is going to get less and less pleased with you because, of course, they depend on visitors for income, for their jobs.
And when you hear these kinds of stories, it doesn't exactly make you want to strap on a pack and head into the woods.
As I've stated in every interview I've ever done, and I'll be glad to say it here, is I encourage everybody to go to the national park.
And I say, don't ever walk alone on a trail.
Personally, I always carry a gun when I'm in a national park.
I always carry a personal transponder device.
And in all the research, in all the cases I've ever read, Art, I've never found a case where somebody disappeared carrying a gun and a personal transponder device.
And maybe you've never heard of it, David, but I got a really weird email not very long ago from somebody who said that they're beginning to encounter, this is going to sound funny, staircases in the middle of national parks.
Staircases.
Now, why would a staircase be in a national park?
I don't know, up against the side of the hill or whatever.
And I read that on the air, not knowing what it meant or why the person sent it to me other than they saw staircases.
And then I got an email from somebody who had a photograph of staircases going down the highway on a flatbed.
Now, it was said that the National Park Rangers were told about these staircases and where they exist, were told not to touch them, not to pay attention to them.
I have no idea what that means.
I don't know whether you've ever heard of that before.
So somebody sent me a link to where this was originally posted.
And I heard both sides of this.
I heard some people saying it was a hoax.
I heard some people saying it was true.
So I really don't know what to believe about it.
But with the number of people in the woods that have a cell phone, you would think that there would be a whole lot of pictures of these floating around if it was true.
Dennis was a six-year-old boy, and he and his dad, his grandpa and his brother, went up to a location in Great Smoky Mountains National Park called Spence Field.
It was Father's Day in the early 60s, and they were camping out, and during the day, the kids and the grandpa and the dad were playing and having fun.
They were sitting at a corner of the park up near the edge of the forest in this big field, and they were running around, and this other family comes up to them and asks Mr. Martin if the kids could play together.
And he said, absolutely, this is great.
And the other man leans down and introduces himself, and his last name was Martin as well, which is quite a coincidence.
And the kids start playing together, and they decide they're going to play hide and seek.
And, you know, one guy's looking, and all the kids run off and hide.
And Mr. Martin said that he watched his son Dennis go behind a tree right at the edge of the meadow.
And after everybody said, come out, Dennis didn't come out.
And Mr. Martin said he got up, never took his eyes off the tree, walked towards it.
His son wasn't there.
Well, right next to this tree was the Appalachian Trail.
He said that he ran nonstop for two miles down that trail and never found his son.
Came back, told his dad to go down the hill, get park rangers, and that started one of the biggest searches in that part of the country ever.
And it also, that afternoon, it started to rain, and it rained there non-stop for a week and a half.
So during the search efforts, the FBI sent an agent to the park to quote-unquote monitor the case.
And he teamed up with another park ranger that monitored the case.
Now, at that time, after a couple days, the green berets show up via helicopter into the park.
They land, they get out, and they set up a base with their own communications.
The park rangers come over and say, hey, we could team up together, we could work since we know the park, blah, blah, blah.
They said, nope, we work alone.
And contrary to what you will hear out there by some people, there was never anything definitive about who called the Green Berets in.
Because I have a report that's about four inches thick, and I've gone through it six times, and nobody wants to stake a claim in that who called them and why they were there.
Two times I filed Freedom of Information Act requests with the Department of the Army asking for the orders for that Green Beret team on that date.
Now, as Dennis was disappearing, unbeknownst to anybody at Spence Field, there's a family that's at the bottom of the park that drives in, goes up to a park ranger and says, we want to go to a location where we can see a bear.
And the rangers tell them to go to this place called Rowan's Creek.
So mom, dad, kids start walking up this pretty rural area, not a real defined trail, up this slow canyon.
And as they're getting up there, they hear a scream, defined as a deafening scream.
Now, the last name of this family is pretty coincidental as well.
Their last name was Key, K-E-Y.
And this is the key part of the case.
As they're walking up this valley, the younger son says, Dad, look up there.
I see a bear on the side of the hill.
The father looks up on the hill and says, no, son, that's not a bear.
That looks like a man.
And he's hiding behind the trees from us.
And the family sees this, and this thing is darting behind the tree.
You can't see him very well, and eventually takes off.
Well, the family goes home, doesn't know a kid's missing.
Next day in the Knoxville Times, front-page story about a boy disappeared on Spence Field at the exact, well, you know, maybe 45 minutes before these guys walked up this valley.
So Mr. Key calls the Park Service and says, I think I may have something for you, and I will come to the park and show you the location where I saw it, and we can see if it makes any sense.
Well, the supervising detective for the Park Service at that time calls him back and says, no, don't come to the park.
We'll come and we'll meet you halfway.
So Mr. Key meets him.
Now, this is unusual because when you're a cop, you want to see what the people saw, where they saw it.
Well, a Knoxville Times reporter happened to hear about this meeting and hear about the observation from the Key family from a family member, not even a source related to the park.
And he goes over to Mr. Martin and asks him if he's heard about this.
Mr. Martin goes, no, no one's ever told me about this.
He goes over to the search and rescue people and goes, do you know about this?
And they go, yeah.
But it's not relative to you.
Don't worry about it.
He goes, no, you promised me everything I would be told.
And they go, yeah, but it's impossible.
The timelines don't make sense.
Well, Dwight McCarter, who's still alive, was the chief tracker for the Park Service.
And Mr. Martin went to him and told him, this is the time, this is the place, could it be?
And McCarter said, yeah, it's possible.
He goes, why don't you and me make that hike tomorrow and see how fast we can make it?
The next day, Mr. Martin and McCarter make that hike in plenty of time.
And Mr. Martin knew then that the Park Service was holding something from him and wasn't telling him the whole story during the entire search effort.
Make a longer story very short here, at the end of six weeks, eventually everybody pulls out.
They don't find anything.
Contrary to what you may read somewhere, there was never any evidence Dennis was anywhere.
They essentially found nothing to prove he was anywhere in the area they were searching.
So about three years ago, I went to Knoxville with another investigator, and we went right to Mr. Martin's front door and we knocked on the door.
He's living in the same house he was when his son disappeared.
He comes to the front door and I said, Mr. Martin, you're looking at the guy probably who knows more about your son's case than anybody but you.
I came all the way from California.
I just want to talk to you for a few minutes.
And he said, Dave, my wife and I, I've promised never to talk about this again.
It's ruined our lives.
And I said, I've come all this way.
Just give me 15 minutes.
He goes, you got it.
He steps out onto the porch, and we had a very enlightening conversation, one that brought tears to my eyes.
I knew this man had been lied to incessantly by the Park Service.
So there's two of us talking to Mr. Martin, and he said, Dave, you know, you've read the reports.
You know that they lied to me, and they continue to lie to me today.
And he said that that timeline about what the Key family saw and my son's disappearance, he goes, it worked because I walked it with McCarter.
And he said, it was obvious that the FBI and the National Park Service didn't want me to know about the Key family, and that's why they kept it away from me.
And I did later interview McCarter about all this, and he substantiated everything Mr. Martin said.
And one thing I always ask people when I'm interviewing him is I say, so is there anything about this event that I didn't talk to you about that I should really know about?
And I said, and he looks at me and goes, absolutely there is.
He goes, you wrote about a series of disappearances in the park and around the park at that timeframe.
I said, yes.
And he says, and you wrote that an FBI agent monitored all of those cases.
I said, that's correct.
His name was Jim Reich.
And he goes, do you know what ever happened to Mr. Reich or Agent Reich?
I said, no.
He said, he committed suicide.
Oh.
And we confirmed that a month later by talking to another agent that worked with him.
And the only thing he would confirm is that Reich did commit suicide.
So for starters, they never told Mr. Martin about the Key family.
When he found out about the Key family, they said that the timeline between the disappearance and what they saw didn't fit.
He asked about why the Green Brays were there.
They didn't tell him.
He asked about what Agent Reich knew about other cases.
They wouldn't tell him.
He asked them if there was any evidence that his son was abducted.
They said no.
Well, when he finally got a chance to meet the Key family and ask them about what they saw, the family said, well, we saw this look like a person up on the side of that mountain dotting between trees, and it had something on its shoulder.
And that's the place where a lot of people like to go.
And you've got to understand that not only did I talk to Mr. Martin, but then I went back and we interviewed McCarter twice, the head tracker for the Park Service.
And I said, hey, is all of this true, what Mr. Martin said?
He looked me in the eye, he looked the other guy in the eye, and he says, it's all true.
I said, then what was it that Mr., or that the Key family saw on the side of that mountain?
And he said, a couple months before Dennis disappeared, there was a park ranger that stopped somebody in the park, and they got in a fight, and the park ranger was beaten pretty bad.
And this was before the park rangers carried guns, even before law enforcement guys in the parks carried guns.
And he says, Dave, there was a group of people at the time, and he goes, there probably still is, that live off the grid, that wear furs over their shoulders, that live in the park, that we can't control, and they do petty crimes.
And he goes, this is what probably took Dennis, but nobody wants to admit it.
I mean, at these various sites where these people disappeared, obviously when law enforcement of whatever sort goes in, they're going to look for any signs of foul play at all.
Not just since.
Sometimes the dogs can do it, sometimes the dogs can't do it.
More times than not, they can.
But, I mean, they're going to look for other signs of foul play, right?
And they want to make sure they don't miss anything.
But again, I want to take people back to the mentality, and this isn't a diss on the search and rescue people.
They are not law enforcement people.
When they're looking for somebody in the field, they're not looking for evidence of a crime.
They're looking for a missing person.
There's a big difference.
They could be trampling right over evidence that may be important to me with my knowledge base, but they don't really care because they just want to find the missing persons.
And in the cases where they have been found alive, you're telling me, and I'm curious how many cases this would be where they are found and they can't remember what happened?
No information has been released on what their statements were.
Like I said, the feds have come in on it, but there's been no word on where he went or he just disappeared.
But my point really is, I think the friends had something to do with it.
And I think in a lot of these cases, and I don't know, but just listening to what you're saying, it seems like if you want to kill your husband or your wife, I mean, what a better place to go.
These people don't do their jobs.
I'm sure a simple Google search could turn that up at any point that, you know, I mean, nobody gives a barn over there.
I'm one of the people who read stories about the stairs and the forests, but I guess my question involves different stories.
It seems like there are a lot of kids who go missing, but then are sometimes found a couple days later that recall stories about either fuzzy men or people with disfigured faces.
And I'm curious to know if David has encountered this or if he has any inclination as to what this might be.
If maybe there are people in the woods who are, like you said, off the grid.
Or could it just be that maybe like these kids touch a psychedelic mushroom and then they start seeing things and then they're found three days later?
Now, one thing he did touch on, these small kids that are missing for a couple days.
In that David Scott case where I said He went up 3,000 feet.
I have more than probably two or three dozen cases of two-year-old, three-year-old, four-year-old kids that disappeared and were found thousands of feet uphill from where they disappeared from or many, many miles from the location they disappeared from.
So the idea that these kids got from A to B on their own, once you read the facts, it's impossible.
And he said factually, he said, hey, Dave, there's no way I could even do some of these feats that supposedly these two and three-year-old kids did in their timeframe.
And he said, you know what?
You lay down the facts.
You don't come up with theories.
And some people have a tough time with facts because they're cold and they're hard.
And it's tough to argue them.
But when there's a story in one of them about a two-year-old kid at a ranch in Oregon, he's found 13 hours later, eight miles away and two mountain ranges away.
I generally don't read emails, but about a year ago, a 10-year-old autistic boy went missing from the family camp in a park either in Oregon or Washington.
He was right near his father, who turned for a minute or two to attend to the campfire.
He turned back.
Boy was gone.
Called, searched, nothing.
Huge search team spent three days looking, all yelling his name and worried as the nights were very cold.
He was not wearing a jacket.
On the third day, one of the searchers, who had combed an area over and over, calling the child, he'd backtrack up a trail one more time, calling out his name, and was thunderstruck.
There was the boy.
He seemed to come from nowhere, standing on the side of the trail.
He called to him, but he never came.
Walked up to him, picked him up, walked down the trail to the search center.
I saw the boy on TV, and he was in remarkable condition.
He was on a gurney and smiling, just as big as he could be, waving to everybody, enjoying the attention.
Happy to see everybody.
Wasn't injured.
Not suffering.
For all three days in the forest.
Never any follow-up.
It was astounding.
Sounds like one of your stories, except it turned out well.
I mean, surely, as you have investigated these cases tons more than we've discussed tonight thus far, you must have some personal hunch is the right word.
But I guess you probably don't want to take a shot, do you?
So as I stated earlier, what I may have thought at the end of the first book, we've run two marathons as we get to the fifth book now.
So, and I have two or three spokes to the wheel.
Do I have any positive evidence, physical evidence of what's done it?
No.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, there's a group of people that are sitting on the periphery that are just waiting for me to say something so that they could pounce on and destroy the reputation of my organization.
I've stated nothing but facts in five books.
And I've told people, to the best of my knowledge, what to do if they go into the woods.
Carry a firearm, carry a personal transponder, don't walk alone, don't let your kids go out of your sight and keep everyone close.
Now, the reality is, is if I was sure that I knew what was happening, I would step up and say it.
I'm not going to compromise my own ethics and guess because my guess at the first book wouldn't have been my guess today.
And my guess today won't be the one I'm going to give you two years from now.
And hearing these things, I don't think it's going to, despite what you said about carrying a gun location device, I don't think it's going to encourage people to go into the national parks.
And I can't imagine the national park people are at all happy with you.
There's so many interesting questions I want to ask.
David, I'm a USF alumnus also, and I know that the Jesuits and their colleges train us to be fact-finders, A, and B, to give service to our fellow human beings.
So I thank you for doing this, even if you are writing books.
I would like to get to the bottom of this.
I, in 1980, was in Big Sur area hiking with an American Indian friend of mine.
We were about 12 miles back on a very narrow trail that, you know, way down into God knows what, in a canyon on one side, and way up very steep, very bushy.
There was some kind of a spring 12 miles in.
Anyhow, we became separated.
I told him for an Indian.
He sure didn't walk very fast.
But I went ahead, and I did break the law because during that period we had the zebra killings going on in the San Francisco area.
And I did have a .22 pistol with me, and he did also have a firearm.
We weren't there to cause any havoc.
We were only to shoot them if we got into trouble.
And I know people shouldn't be doing this, but if you're responsible, you keep it out of sight.
Maybe it does help you.
But when I came to one part of the trail before dark, as I was headed back out toward the Highway 1, I did get a really strange feeling.
And I'm not someone who I identify as psychic or anything.
A very odd feeling as I went into a bend that was very dark.
And just something told me something was watching me or someone.
And I moved very quickly to get out of there.
Anyhow, back after dark, when my friend came into camp, I happened to mention that, and he said that he was in the same area.
And being a Native American, he thought perhaps an animal was watching us.
But I can say that when I brought this topic up to some teenagers that I work with, because sometimes I will talk about the UFO stuff that my community is into, I was shocked where a young man about 16 talked about where it had happened to him recently when he was a little kid a few years back, where he was in a park, he went missing, and they found him the next day, and he said he didn't know where he was.
He said, I don't know what happened to me.
So there's something creepy going on when people will admit to it.
And I don't know what the answer is, but you say you don't want people to break the law, but I'm telling you, next time I go in camping, I'm bringing a pistol with me.
I guess better to break the law if you have to thank just another one of David's stories.
So let's go to Bryson on Skype.
Bryson, hello.
Hello, Bryson.
Yes, hello.
unidentified
Yes, sir.
Can you hear me?
I do.
Okay, I was going to say that right when Derek Liu King and Michael Cochini disappeared, I was actually hiking up to Elkmont.
Then there was a third person who disappeared at that time.
And it was real weird.
We'd hike to Elkmot, my friend Chelsea and me, and then we hiked on up to higher up in the mountains.
And one of the restaurant employees was interviewing someone, and I thought we were eavesdropping on an interview for a job because they asked, well, do you have any medical conditions that would hinder and this and that?
And it turns out a third person disappeared during that weird time.
And I know that it's in the Smoky Mountains National Park.
That Liu King guy was never found.
And Michael Caccini, they just recently think that they have found his remains, maybe.
In that case, I guess they won't know until DNA tests are done.
But in so many of the cases that David describes, there's not even traces left to pull DNA from.
It's just a vanishing.
these people are gone.
And I wish I I wish I could reach and think of something to say here that would be logical, but there can be no logical answers to the facts that you've laid down, David.
Let me try a different approach with you.
Since you're unwilling to venture forth an opinion or a guess on your own, and I don't blame you for that, do you have anybody who's responded to all these books you've written who you consider may have at least a pretty good idea of what may be going on?
I mean, I've heard, you've got to know Art that I've heard them all.
Everything you can think of, I've heard it.
And when you start to get down into the minutiae of it, none of it, there's one factor in all of it that doesn't make sense depending on the suspect that they pick.
And I'm not trying to be evasive, but it's just a lot of people think that there could be multiple things going on.
I mean, the talk about spokes in the wheel, tonight we're just talking about those rural disappearances.
Well, most recently, in the last 15 months, I've committed my time to looking at urban disappearances, namely college-age men and some women that have disappeared in a university setting and were found dead in a river, pond, creek, something like that.
And what's been unusual about that is that the profile points that I've identified with you tonight, almost all of them that could transfer to that setting did.
Many times the coroners can't find a cause of death, or they'll say it's hypothermia, or they'll say maybe it's drowning.
There's many, many instances that I've documented where the coroners say the person disappeared January 1st.
They found him March 1st.
They've been gone for 60 days, but they haven't been in the water for 60 days.
We can only confirm that they've been in the water based on the physical attributes the body shows.
Well, in the past, I made a presentation in front of the largest search and rescue organization in the world, NASA, and I spoke exactly about the things we're talking about tonight.
If people want to get a hold of me, you can go to my website, CANAM, like CanadianAmerican, C-A-N-A-M, missing.com, and there's a contact link there, and you could get a hold of me through that.
When another case occurs, and at the rate they're going, there's going to be another one, obviously, and you go to the Park Rangers to monitor or even help in their investigation because it's another case of the same kind you've been following, are you going to get any cooperation or are you going to meet with very, very stiff resistance?
Whoever is next, it's your turn on the phone with David Hine.
unidentified
Good morning, Mark.
Good morning, Dad.
It's Scott in San Diego.
I am somewhat mystified at the notion that first there are no comprehensive lists of these disappearances, and then all of a sudden, for tens of thousands of dollars, you can get your hot little hands on these lists.
I mean, one of the other callers touched on this, the idea of getting in touch with your U.S. senators or congressional representatives.
Another step, which I've found to be effective when you get a roadblock by an agency, is to research the congresspersons or senators who have oversight capacity over these agencies and contacting them.
Because, see, it's easy to say no to A regular human being or even a reporter, okay, these agencies, but they are very reluctant to say no to a congressman or a senator, especially one who's on an oversight committee.
When you get stubborn people in the federal government, generally going to Congress or a senator, if you can get them to help, it gets rather immediate attention.
David, I know as a parent, if I have a child that disappeared, just disappeared, as you have been describing these disappearances, I would not rest for all the rest of my life until I had some sort of resolution to it.
I mean, without a body, without a trace, these people seem to be gone.
They would always be thinking that little Johnny would show up suddenly smiling like little story I read you.
But that doesn't happen.
So these people are left with absolutely nothing.
Even in the worst of cases, usually a body is finally found and there's some sort of closure, bad as it may be, you know, as the police find out it was.
There's some sort of closure.
But with nothing, that's a hard life to imagine.
All right.
Next, Kansas City, I think you're on the air.
unidentified
Hi, Art and David.
How are you?
Fine.
A couple things, Art.
I could probably talk to you until you go off the air, but I'm the former president of a Missing Persons Foundation here in Missouri that was created in honor of two children that were murdered that were missing for over three years.
Went through a lot of extensive training.
We actually created and established a group here in conjunction with local law enforcement as well as county, and they put us through some extensive training, had crime scene guys come in.
I noticed the deputy called a few minutes ago, and he was asking about help and everything.
And believe it or not, when somebody says that the police don't need your help, they really do.
This is just so unorganized throughout the whole country.
I know like locally here, we search for people local.
Thank goodness for an organization like ours.
But you can go to the next jurisdiction over and they're scrambling.
What do we do?
What do we do?
And, you know, getting to this national parks thing, I can recall a case, I don't remember the person's name that wasn't missing in Arizona.
Parked his car, went hiking, was missing for a year or two.
They finally found his remains because people were persistent in searching, but you get out in those isolated areas.
You don't have self-service.
And just like a small town where I live, we've been out searching for people, and we've grid searched wooded areas.
You would not believe the amount of homeless people that we encounter while we're out there.
With the number of searches you've done, how many times have you come up, I mean, completely empty, something that would fit the criterion that David's been talking about?
unidentified
We've come up empty.
However, remains were eventually recovered in a body of water in one particular instance.
Another instance, still missing.
So, But the circumstances are much different.
It's not national parks.
There were some really disturbing issues that led up to the disappearance of a very small child.
You get into jurisdictional issues when you go on national property.
However, I know missing persons reports can still be filed by family members and such.
Who actually goes?
Now I know, for example, like a lot of the times the FBI won't get involved unless it crosses a state line or there are circumstances that actually push it to be pursued by the federal level because of maybe something that they've discovered that says, hey, this is a federal crime.
But who actually takes jurisdiction on park property at that point, just if it's a local case?
They have a law enforcement branch that are national park rangers that have been trained by the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.
They're better trained than most police officers in medium-sized towns across the nation.
They have a hierarchy.
They're very competent people.
Then they have special agents.
Just like FBI agents, they have special agents that are detectives that are the follow-up branch of the National Park Police.
Yes, they have a jurisdiction.
They've been trained in how to do this.
They know.
Now, you said something that's fascinating that was brief.
Jurisdictional issues on searches.
I can't tell you the number of times that victims and victims' families, they're missing a loved one, and they want resources brought in, specialized resources, and the local search and rescue group plays king of the hill and says, nope, no more people are coming in.
Nope, no more resources we're going to use.
And I cannot tell you the number of times I've heard from families about it's obvious they needed more people, they needed fresh keynotes because their dogs were tired and they wouldn't entertain it and they wouldn't bring more people in and they acted as though they were the king of the hill.
I've heard this so many times and I know search and rescue protocol and it doesn't make any sense why the people are acting in this manner when you're on the seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth day of a search when you need to cover a massive amount of area at that point, why you're not calling for more help.
unidentified
And I sometimes wonder if there may be circumstances, like I know here locally we've run across a couple of those, but it was foul play.
It was crying foul play.
So they didn't want anybody else coming in because they thought there was going to be a crime scene for sure.
There was a very strong possibility of foul play, and they did not want anybody else involved.
Well, in the incidents I know about, there was never any inclination to foul play.
It was a straight missing persons, and they weren't finding any evidence of where they were at, and they kept moving the perimeter and the grids out further and further and further.
In the case where you mentioned, for example, the Green Berets that came in, I imagine somebody in the family connected to the family or somebody had some connections high up in the military and just had it done.
So those kind of things can occur.
And I imagine if that occurs, nobody questions jurisdiction.
Well, I know of two cases in the U.S. where the Green Berets were called.
Really?
And I only know the Martin family, and I know the Martins didn't know anybody in the Green Berets.
And the number of times I've been on the radio like this, every time after something like this, somebody will contact me anonymously and say, hey, I'm a special forces person.
I'm going to tell you flatly that the Green Berets will go nowhere in the United States to search for anybody.
That's not what we do.
That's not what we'll train to do.
And that never happened.
Now, we may have been there, but we weren't searching for somebody that was missing.
I've had these emails like probably 10 times in the last five years.
Well, maybe on paper, somebody had to put down that they were there for a different reason, if you follow me.
In other words, in some higher military hierarchy, another reason was officially put on paper because, well, they don't search for people, but in fact, that's what they were doing.
David, hold on.
I can imagine that happening.
I can't imagine these cases that we're hearing about.
Just can't imagine.
unidentified
Coming to you at the speed of light in the darkness.
We've talked about a number of missing people, people who have just Literally vanished, actually.
And Corby speaks for a lot of people when he says, Look, why go on all these shows and talk about this if you're not going to offer any opinion?
Granted, he doesn't want to affect his credibility, but then why go on and just let your books speak for themselves?
I get it is very frustrating, is what he says, and it is frustrating, and yet I understand why you will not reach out with an opinion based on facts that seem impossible.
So what would you say the goal of your continued writing about this is, David?
So if there's no hard evidence to say what's happening, then you're guessing.
Do you see any scientists out there in the academic world guessing about a hypothesis?
I don't think so.
And in your world, in this world of cryptozoology, paranormal, I think people are so used to people making outrageous claims that it's abnormal for somebody to come along and say, well, wait a minute, I want to wait and see where this goes.
I want to accumulate actual evidence, whether it's circumstantial or not.
And before I stick my credibility and integrity on the line, to me, it's amusing that people are demanding or they say that they want to have an answer because I don't have a good answer.
They understand what would happen if you said what they imagine you might say.
And you're so right.
You would be dismissed immediately by a large portion of the law enforcement community, scientific community.
A lot of people would just go, aha, and nobody would ever pay any attention to you anymore.
It would happen.
I know.
I don't disagree with that.
And I don't disagree with the man who writes and says it is frustrating to be presented with the impossible and not to be able to venture even an opinion virtually.
I get the problem.
Let's go to the phone.
Hello there.
You're on the air.
unidentified
Hi, Art.
Hi.
Most people who listen to shows like yours know the government keeps lots of secrets, like secrets about aliens, secrets about my labs, secret space program.
Well, I think all these things are going to be revealed because if you notice, there's more and more truth coming out all the time, and I think it's going to come out very soon.
And even going on to my own son in Boy Scouts, when I would take him hiking or camping, whatever, there was very few places, but some places you just felt as a parent that weren't right, that you didn't belong there.
I don't know that there was a question there to answer, but there certainly are places that don't feel right.
As a parent, you know about them when you come up against them.
On the phone, you're on the air with David.
unidentified
Hi.
Hi, Art.
This is Ray at Citrus Heights.
I have two questions, and I'll take the answers off the air.
Number one, I want an approximation of the ratio of male to female abductions from the National Parks and Forest.
And number two, I know why he won't answer as to a hypothesis, but what I would like to know is why he thinks the feds are being so secretive about this incident, these incidents.
There's a series of disappearances And deaths in Manchester, England.
And the men disappeared and they were found in the canals of the city.
And you could Google Manchester Canal deaths and see.
And the community, it's still happening right now.
And the community is up in arms because there's a lot that have disappeared since 2009 and been found in the canals under the same exact conditions that I write about in this last book.
Namely, many times they can't determine the cause of death.
In every instance, there's no witness to what happened.
It doesn't make a lot of sense because a lot of those canals, you can stand up in them.
They call them the pusher.
Some people think that the people were just pushed in, but you've got to apply logic to that.
Yeah, I just wanted to state that I firmly believe that the government knows what's going on.
I think that they are possibly, because it's taking place in national parks, it possibly could be connected with underground bases, as that's where they're taking the victims and possibly using them for scientific studies.
And that's not even throwing out the possibility of the possible treaty they have with beings to allow that to happen at a certain percentage.
Because as far as I'm familiar with, from what I've been hearing, is that that's the particular drug that's been used in like South America and Colombia to drug people in order to kind of put them in a zombified state.
Well, scopolamine is something that was used to avoid seasickness in years past.
And I just remember that.
It was a little patch that you put behind your ear.
But right now, there's something called GHB.
It's a date-rape drug.
It makes you completely immovable.
You know what's happening.
And that was found in high levels in many of the cases of these people that drowned.
So you put somebody in water, they're alive, they're breathing, they can't fight, they can't swim, it appears they drowned, but unless the coroner's testing for GHB, it's just going to go by as a drowning and the kid's dead.
Has he, this is Ryan in the Sonoran Desert, by the way, Buckeye, Arizona, has David looked into or had anybody come forward from Native American reservations or areas where people have gone missing around certain sites?
And because there's a lot of information out there and books written about wormholes and portals, and some of these locations are very sacred, like the Grand Canyon for the Hopi.
The second question, real quick, is remote viewers, have any come forward to help you out, either privately or have you reached out to them and have you got any results back?
And they might come up with something that might lead us somewhere because, boy, you know, the person who wrote the thing about getting frustrated, they really are right.
I mean, you have described accurately all of these incredible cases that have absolutely no answer.
Or if they do have an answer, it's one that leads us down a path that, well, you can't talk about, really.
Frustrating.
Hello there.
You're on the air with David.
unidentified
Hello, Art.
Yes, hello.
Hello.
Yes, Art and David.
Great show tonight.
I just wanted to bring up a case that David may be familiar with.
It was an interesting case that happened in the 1980s in the White Mountains of New Hampshire in the Jackson area.
It was actually a group of autistic children that were hiking with a couple of instructors on a mountain called Black Mountain.
And coming down, one of the youngsters, I think he was between 8 or 10 years old, got separated from the group.
They never found the kid that later, earlier, excuse me, as they get off the mountain, they never found the kid.
They sent up over 250 people.
This is not a very big mountain.
This is Black Mountain.
It's only about 3,200 feet.
They didn't find the child.
A couple of interesting sides about this.
They didn't find the child that night.
I think it was possibly another night also that he stayed on the mountain.
Interestingly, even though they had all of these people that were professionals as far as search and rescue, there was a fireman down in Marshfield, Massachusetts that ended up finding the boy.
He was watching a television show.
This is about 250 miles away.
He had never done anything like this before.
And the television, the news show, I just talked about the child.
He all of a sudden he had an epiphany that he was going to be able to find the child.
He drives up to Black Mountain in New Hampshire, climbs the mountain, and lo and behold, he finds the child.
Now, a couple of interesting facts about this was later on, you find out that the child, who was autistic, later began to be able to communicate better after this incident.
Well, so they asked the child, how did you survive?
Because the chair had plummeted way below 30 degrees, and they were very worried that the child might not survive the night.
And he said that he had buttoned to a part of the mountain where he was surrounded by this white light, and that the white light kept him warm, and he was fine.
And the interesting thing, again, is after this incident, he ended up actually becoming more cognizant, more communicative.
And another interesting side about this was that the fireman from Marshfield, it turns out that he was a big hero after this, and he was in the newspapers, etc.
And he ends up coming out and admitting that he was an arsonist that they had been looking for in the southern part of Massachusetts, and he had come out because he had felt this message from God that he was going to be able to find this child, and his whole life turned around.
I don't know if you ever heard of the case at all.