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Sept. 8, 2015 - Art Bell

02:18:03

Art Bell MITD - Debbie Anderson Witchcraft

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	From the high desert and the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening, good
	morning, good afternoon, whatever the case may be, wherever you are, this show, Midnight
	in the Desert, covering the entire world, every time zone, I'm Art Bell.
	It is my pleasure to be here this evening.
	We have a witch on tonight.
	A real witch.
	You know, you need to take a look at her, too.
	She's either a witch or a judge.
	Actually, there's only one at the moment.
	All right, so we only have two rules on our program.
	And they are no bad language.
	We have no need of those bad words.
	Children listen.
	Or youngsters, anyway.
	Besides, if you call up and use a bad word, I will have tonight's guest cast a spell upon you and you'll not be able to reproduce nor even practice.
	And then only one call per show, that's the other thing.
	So, News today.
	Well, the first news is I had a bad, bad, bad car day.
	You ever have a bad car day?
	We had two cars up at the dealership for separate problems.
	When does that happen?
	Today.
	Alright, so, um, that's just my bad day.
	In Las Vegas, a bad day for a 777.
	I saw it in flames.
	It was an aborted takeoff.
	According to the FAA, the left engine was thoroughly on fire.
	More trouble for the 777.
	Who knows exactly what it is?
	Not, of course, the body of the craft.
	Probably the engine caught on fire for some reason.
	But I'll tell you, those are some lucky people.
	Because about five more seconds or ten more seconds, they would have been in the air.
	And it would not have been an aborted takeoff, it would have been an aborted flight, to put it mildly.
	The Obama administration would like to help its allies across the Atlantic with the escalating migrant crisis, but we are unlikely to open our doors to all those poor people that are trying to get across Europe and get to Germany.
	You know, they're breaking through set-up barriers and that kind of thing to get where they need to go, and I guess they ought to just stop trying to stop them and let them go.
	The Kentucky County clerk who was jailed for refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples has been released out of jail five days behind bars And, you know, as I watched her, I thought, you know, she's not going to change.
	So, back behind bars?
	We'll see.
	Again in Kazakhstan, a mysterious black smoky ring.
	This thing is really weird.
	I don't know if you've seen it.
	Hovering in the sky, a giant ring, and then it slowly dissipates.
	What could possibly put a black ring in the sky?
	A perfect black ring?
	And then just slowly dissipate like it was smoke.
	Not a UFO.
	Well, in a way a UFO, I guess.
	Certainly unidentified.
	Definitely for at least a period of time an object.
	And then this.
	This is just so gross.
	I got this email.
	Hi Art.
	I'm sending you this email to show you something you might want to show your audience.
	I debated about it.
	Apparently a hunter killed a wild pig with some kind of strange mutation.
	Why the guy opened the pig for cleaning, when he did rather, he discovered that it had bright blue fat.
	And he sent very overly detailed photographs.
	And they're on my site now at artbell.com.
	Imagine sitting down in the morning to breakfast, maybe green eggs and blue bacon.
	What would possibly turn a pig bright blue?
	And it is bright blue, I'm telling you.
	You've got to see it to believe it, even then.
	All right, so I promised a witch tonight, and so I shall deliver.
	Debbie Anderson is a witch, working in the Blue Star tradition of witchcraft.
	I don't know what that is, but we're going to find out.
	She has attained the third degree I do know a little of what that is, and you should be wary.
	And is High Priestess of Keepers of the Reed Coven.
	Another reason you should be cautious.
	Debbie was born and raised on Maui, Hawaii, moved to Washington, D.C.
	as a teenager.
	In the sixties, along with so many others who were searching for life's meaning, she was drawn to which In 1991, Debbie met Frank Buck, the founder and creative genius behind Magic Crafts Jewelers, the company that supplied hand-woven pentacles and other metaphysical jewelry to the huge neo-pagan community.
	It was Fred who introduced Debbie to Blue Star Witchcraft, neo-paganism in the United States, and many forms and shapes that witchcraft took.
	Fred also introduced her to me, Art Bell.
	And apparently, earlier in life, they would fall asleep at night while listening to this program.
	Or me.
	The Pagan Festival Circuit attracted practitioners of all persuasions, and Debbie Earned learned a great deal about the magical practices of these disparate groups, and incorporated many different magical applications into her own practice.
	In the 24 years since Debbie has embraced the more formal craft structure.
	I love that word.
	Craft.
	I don't know why.
	I guess it was the movie.
	I guess it's just short for what is so interesting.
	Pursuing not only the ritual part of the Wiccan path, but also the practical applied aspects of magic working and spell casting.
	Debbie is a former officer of the Covenant of the Goddess.
	An officer and member of the Lee-Wa-Gah-Zoo, that'd be a lodge of Co-Free Masonry.
	I saw everybody just wake up.
	La-Dwa-Hoo-Mun.
	And a criminal defense attorney practicing in Washington, D.C.
	So, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to laugh at that last part.
	It just, it seems, I don't know, so...
	So, I'll wait until after the break to come up with a word for a witch who is an attorney, and a criminal defense attorney at that.
	On the other hand, if I was a criminal, I might look at her and she does kind of look like a witch.
	And I might say, yeah, baby.
	But I love you too much.
	But I'm too busy to love you.
	You know it's weird to say it right.
	But I do love you, baby.
	You know it's weird to say it right.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Your conductor, Art Bell, will punch your ticket.
	When you call 1952, call Art.
	That's 1952-225-5278.
	I'll punch your ticket, all right.
	Welcome back, everybody.
	All right, going all the way now to the current center of drama in the world, Washington, D.C., and Debbie Anderson, which... Hello, Debbie.
	Hello, Art.
	It is such a pleasure, and it is so good to have you back.
	Well, thank you.
	Thank you for giving us the gift of you again.
	I had no idea you had listened years and years ago.
	Yes.
	Wow.
	Yes, my husband and I have been listening to you since we started dating, and it was 24 years ago.
	They're always doing this, reminding me.
	Okay, Debbie, so So much to ask you.
	I'm going to start with a question, actually, I think, that comes by computer.
	Please ask Debbie the difference between a Wiccan and a Witch.
	Supposedly, there is a difference, denied by some and acknowledged by others.
	Will be interesting to hear.
	Wiccans are into Earth magic and Witches are into Spellcasters.
	I'm sorry.
	Wiccans are into Earth magic, it says, and Witches are into Spellcasters and plus Earth magic.
	Is that right or wrong?
	That is one of the questions I was desperately hoping would not come up, but I will try to tackle it.
	So see, I found it first.
	You did well.
	You've hit a question that has a lot of depth.
	I tend to do that.
	Back when I first started practicing in a formal coven structure, 24 years ago, we were all witches.
	And our religion was witchcraft.
	And then somewhere along the line, and I don't really have a sense of when, because I was busy practicing and not being on the political end of the craft, it started being called Wicca.
	As I understand it, and that is a big caveat, because this is not any knowledge I feel strongly about and am parting, but my understanding of the difference, if there is a difference, is that Wicca is derived from the formal
	system that was set up by Gerald Gardner.
	Witchcraft is more the spell casting, you know, they're hedge witches.
	There doesn't have to be a formal coven structure behind witchcraft.
	So then you would be... I call myself a witch.
	Okay, yes, I understand.
	So you would be the... would I call you a conservative in the movement?
	Would that be fair?
	An old timer.
	Old school.
	Back in my day, we did things different.
	Yeah, I know.
	Off with the heads.
	So, in the old tradition then.
	Yes.
	Yes, very much back to...
	As an example, Gerald Gardner started the modern neo-pagan revival.
	He didn't write What Wiccans Do or Wicca for Tomorrow.
	I'm sorry, What Witches Do is actually written by Stuart Farah, but it was Witchcraft for Tomorrow that Gerald Gardner wrote.
	He did not use that word, Wicca, to define the religion.
	And it was, for him, a religion.
	And the structure that, as I understand it, is going by the name Wicca today, is what he called witchcraft.
	And I'm an old-timer.
	I use the term witchcraft.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Now, I notice, of course, your bio reveals you are an attorney.
	Yes.
	When I looked at your picture, I thought either witch or judge.
	I mean, it almost looks like you're in a black robe there.
	I am absolutely a traditional witch in that I absolutely adore black.
	And almost all of my clothes are black.
	Fortunately, in the courtroom, a black suit is quite appropriate.
	That's true.
	And who knows, someday you could be picked to be a judge.
	So, it could happen.
	That there's not much chance of that quite honestly.
	Okay, well that's where I'm going next and that is the fact that you reveal that you're an attorney and reveal that you're a witch surprises me.
	Should it?
	I think a little bit, but my history is such that I have lived out of the broom closet for a lot of years, and I don't want to go back into the broom closet.
	For most of the time that my husband and I have been together, we made a living as out witches with his jewelry business.
	Do they honestly call it the broom closet?
	Yes, that's how we refer to it, coming out of the broom closet.
	That's great, okay.
	When I originally advertised, I sort of said, well, you know, I want a cauldron-stirring, spell-casting, broom-writing witch, and you are as close as it gets.
	Now, did you hear the many, many interviews I did with Evelyn Paglini?
	I heard very many of them, yes.
	She was an amazing woman and such a great loss.
	She was such a wonderful teacher.
	And because of people like Dr. Paglini, it makes it easier for people like me to be out of the room closet as a witch.
	She did so much good.
	Yeah, she called herself a spiritual warrior.
	Spiritual warrior.
	Yes.
	I guess there are aspects of what you do that also could be, if applied, called being a spiritual warrior, right?
	I believe so, Art.
	To me, a spiritual warrior is someone who sees honesty and fights to bring honesty to the forefront, to bring justice to the forefront.
	Okay.
	And I have tried as best as possible to integrate that fight in my religion, my crafting, and in my legal practice.
	Alright, but now I'm going to ask you a what-if question.
	Sure.
	And here it is.
	If you decided that you had a dire enemy, somebody was coming after you, Um, somebody who wanted to do you harm, somebody who wanted to, in some way, injure you and you wanted to use your craft to either protect yourself against that or to strike at them first.
	Could you do that?
	I would put up protection spells.
	I wouldn't strike out at someone.
	I think I'm a strong enough witch to be able to protect myself without doing harm to someone else.
	All right, then let me rephrase.
	If somebody had done you harm and was after you, they've already done you harm, could you fight back with what you know?
	Yes.
	There's something in the common law that carries with me throughout all aspects of my life.
	There's something in the common law that carries with me throughout all aspects of my life.
	There are two reasons, there are two justifiable reasons to kill someone.
	Defense of self, defense of others.
	I was talking about maimings more than... Oh, okay.
	But no, proceed.
	But I would protect myself.
	Could you?
	I am being attacked.
	I could and I would, yes.
	Okay.
	Is it possible to kill with witchcraft?
	I certainly believe so.
	Oh, my.
	Okay.
	All right.
	That is a very, very, very serious power then, isn't it?
	Yes, it is.
	And fortunately, it's one that has to be developed over a long time.
	It's not something that someone can just get to buy a book, read it, and be able to do.
	And it's a power that if you are good enough to actually do it, you are smart enough to very rarely, if ever, use it.
	And to add to this, and send chills right down the spine of everybody out there, you're also a Freemason, yes?
	Yes, I am.
	Very proud to be.
	And an attorney.
	Holy moly, and a criminal defense attorney at that.
	I was saying, jokingly, but I'm really not joking, if I was a criminal and I was seeking a defense attorney, I don't think I would be bothered one little bit by knowing that you were actually a witch.
	Now, is that the way you can kind of make it work?
	That's part of the way I make it work.
	I also investigate my cases thoroughly.
	I also fight with any tools available to me.
	Whether it be a spell, a really effective motion.
	I'm always going to use spell crafting the night before a trial.
	Wow.
	Turn a candle and ask that my client be given every... Advantage?
	Consideration possible.
	Yes.
	How many judges who were looking like they were going to rule against you had strokes before they could?
	Oh no, none.
	None?
	Okay.
	I want to... Go ahead.
	I don't believe in slashing out and doing harm.
	I believe in protection.
	We're starting to get a little interference from something.
	I don't know what it is.
	Probably based on the nature of our conversation.
	That is quite possible.
	Oh, it's doing it.
	I wouldn't possibly be lucky enough to have a call from J.C.
	this evening.
	J.C., huh?
	You're breaking up right now, actually, which is really weird.
	I have no indication that we've got a bad connection.
	That is very strange.
	Okay, let us reconnect.
	I will call you right back.
	Okay.
	Huh.
	Let's see, I said I'd call her back and now she's somewhere down my list.
	Alright, this is going to be tough.
	Interesting.
	Well, this is what happens, I guess, when you have Skype.
	You know, on the plus side of Skype, you, of course, get really, really good quality audio most of the time, but then all of a sudden You get something like that, where it just goes weird on you.
	And there's no way to know why or anything, but she'll be back any second.
	So, actually, I attempted a call and it didn't go through.
	So, hmm, let's see.
	Something's going to have to be reset, I guess, on her end.
	Well, I can try it this way.
	Let me see.
	There is some... Yeah, here it is.
	Try it this way.
	Strange.
	Really strange.
	Skype is amazing.
	Of course, again, the nature of what we're discussing right now might be bringing this on.
	And no, still we have no answer.
	We are calling and not getting... The person whom you're trying to reach is currently unavailable.
	Please leave a message after the beep.
	Hi there.
	You're going to get this a long time from now, Linda.
	I tried calling you and you weren't there.
	So I'm going to try your landline number and I'm going to do that after we take a break.
	So if somebody would like to make a call right now, I think I'll take a call.
	See, that's what I get.
	So, is this going to be my night?
	Well, I'll try to call again.
	Really weird stuff.
	Really weird.
	You all heard that developing and it just got scratchier and scratchier.
	Really weird stuff.
	So we're trying Linda again.
	I think what she's done probably is that she's gone to a landline.
	The person whom you're trying to reach is currently unavailable.
	All right, let me try it this way.
	I can actually call on the air, I think.
	So, I'm going to do it.
	No, I'm not.
	I'm going to take a call from this person.
	Hello there.
	Well, hello there, Art Bell.
	Hi.
	I'm calling from Winnipeg, Canada.
	Okay.
	Well, I'm just using you to take up time between now and the break that's coming up when I get my guest back.
	Well, interesting.
	Very interesting guest.
	And by the way, I just wanted to thank you very much.
	Now all the phones are ringing.
	You're not the one who cast a spell and put the noise in there, were you?
	I hope not.
	I hope not, too.
	Because I think I mentioned at the top of the show what would happen.
	Well, no, that was bad language.
	Go ahead.
	Anyway, you called.
	Yes, and I wanted to ask her a question, but I just want to preface before my question, if I can.
	I wanted to thank you for having me on as one of the jurists of Truth or Trash.
	I had a blast.
	Oh, is this Sharon?
	Yes.
	Sharon, well, I'll have you back.
	We'll do it again.
	I really enjoyed your voice and your verdicts, I might add.
	Well, thank you.
	I really enjoyed the whole thing.
	And, oh, and the other thing, too, Art, I wanted to share with you.
	You know, I have to share this with you, to be honest, very quickly.
	When I realized that you had returned, re-emerged, I don't know why, but for some reason, this was an instantaneous smile came to my face.
	Yes, well, that's what I do.
	I don't return, I re-emerge.
	And I think what it is, and I think I'm reflecting the sentiment of many, I think what I missed was the conversation.
	Not so much a well-scripted, polished format, which I'm sure you have, but I just miss this type of conversation that you have with your guests and with the callers.
	It's almost like it's just me among millions thinking that, you know, you're just sitting back and having a conversation either Challenging people or agreeing with people or disagreeing?
	Well, I think that's how talk radio should be.
	It should be just a conversation.
	I mean, what I try to do is ask the questions that I think the people in the audience would be asking.
	And it seems to work.
	Yeah, it seems like you've been doing pretty well with what you do.
	Well, I have noticed something very different about Midnight in the Desert.
	Yes.
	And that is that over the period of time we've been on now, what is it, seven weeks?
	That's like a record.
	Yeah.
	And I've noticed that the, oh, there's Debbie calling.
	Okay.
	Let me answer that.
	Debbie, are you there?
	I'm here, yes.
	That's cool.
	All right.
	I've got this nice young lady named Sharon on the phone.
	I want to finish up with her and then we'll take a break and I'll come right back to you.
	Is that okay?
	That's certainly fine.
	I don't know what happened.
	I'm telling you.
	I wanted to ask her a question, darn.
	You did?
	Yes.
	I was about to say that my callers are so much more intelligent, but you're proving that right now, Sharon.
	What did you want to ask?
	Well, what leapt out at me right away was, Debbie, when you say that you asked for protection the night before the trial or the jury, I'm just wondering who is it that you're asking protection from?
	I'm a little bit skeptical here.
	I get a little bit wary of people who claim to have powers that I'm not aware that I have.
	Okay, well let's get an answer to your question.
	Ask protection from whom?
	First of all, hi Sharon, and thank you for calling.
	Very short time, we're going to a break.
	I am the barista of B.A.S.T.
	and B.A.S.T.
	is a very fierce, protective mother cat.
	She and I have worked together for a long time and she is my primary source to go to to ask to protect my clients.
	So you go to your cat?
	Yes.
	Cool.
	Alright, hold on everybody.
	Sharon and Debbie.
	If it was me, I think I'd have to go to... ...kind of pick between my cats.
	Um, that's a hard choice and they wouldn't like me making it.
	We'll be back.
	I knew it.
	Cats can kill.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network.
	This is Midnight in the Desert with your host, Art Bell.
	To call Art, please dial 1952-225-5278.
	That's 1952.
	952-225-5278. That's 1-952-CALL-ART. I really do love this song.
	So many songs I love.
	Anyway, back now to where we were with my guest, I hope.
	Linda, are you there?
	I think you mean Debbie.
	Yes, and Sharon.
	Sharon?
	Sharon!
	I'm here.
	All right, there you are.
	All right, so the answer was her, I believe Debbie would say, familiar.
	Yes, Mr. Butch is my familiar.
	Mr. Butch.
	Yes.
	So she would go to her cat, Sharon, that's the answer.
	I would go to the goddess Bast, but my familiar is Butch.
	But I would like to address something, Sharon, that you mentioned.
	I think quite rightly so.
	I would be very suspicious of someone who claims to have powers that you don't.
	I see the power, if that's even an appropriate word, as something that we all have.
	And the only difference between me and say somebody on the street who is not a witch and does not practice what I do is just having spent time developing the ability.
	That's a good word for it.
	It's an ability.
	But it's something that we all have.
	Art had a guest on a few weeks ago, I think addressed the point very well, Nassim Harriman.
	He is a theoretical physicist and he talked at great length about how everything is interconnected.
	And all that we witches do is hone our ability to make that interconnectedness work for us.
	If I take my hand and push at the air, it's not just going to push at the air that's touching
	my hand.
	There's going to be a ripple effect down the line.
	And that's what I'm talking about.
	Just being able to use those kinds of energies.
	Sharon?
	I think, Art, if I may, and I'll hang up and listen to the answer because I know you have
	a lot more questions, but I think what kind of struck me as, oh, that's kind of unusual
	or odd, is I have the ability to hurt somebody.
	I have the ability to even kill somebody.
	But that's a choice I make.
	I have the free will to make that choice.
	One consequence would be very bad and would be bad for the other.
	So when Art gave you a what-if scenario where you could actually hurt someone with this spell or curse, I'm thinking to myself, well, that's a choice that you make.
	I don't agree with your choice.
	You're free to make it, but I don't think it would be of benefit to anybody.
	What I would do My first instinct to answer that question would be, well, I would let it go, or I would forgive.
	Sharon?
	Yes?
	Are you a witch?
	No, I'm not.
	Okay, so you'd be using a gun or a knife.
	Poison, maybe.
	To bring harm to?
	Yeah.
	Someone attacking me?
	Uh, yeah.
	Well, I wouldn't, um, I don't own a gun, and I wouldn't have a knife on me normally.
	I would fight like Like anything, I would fight like hell, but that's all I would be able to do.
	And pray for help, pray for some type of help.
	But not to think that I alone, what makes me think that I alone would be able to do something uh... i understand hearing notion i get it uh... but but my
	guest us thank you jaron uh... was actually a good call
	i thought she was headed down the road of either telling me she was a way to
	order to have you know lethal weapons
	it's so but but with which craft you actually can accomplish these things and that is
	what i call a serious which and i i've got to say you are serious which
	You said 24 years at it?
	Yes, 24 years in a formal coven structure.
	Yes, and Covenant of the Goddess and Officer and Member of something... Louis Guizou?
	Louis Guizou, it really is that.
	Okay, Louis Guizou, Lodge of Freemasonry.
	How does Freemasonry, before we get back to Witchcraft, fit into Witchcraft, or does it not?
	It does.
	Gerald Gardner was a member of Le Droit Humain.
	He was initiated into Freemasonry One of the things that I wanted to pursue with Freemasonry was how much effect did Masonic ritual have on what Gardner crafted as Wiccan ritual, and I have been able to explore that.
	That was the beginning of my interest, that and also the fact that my father and my husband are also Masons.
	But I stay because the fellowship is very important to me.
	The ritual is different than Wiccan ritual, but still beautiful, especially the third degree raising ceremonies.
	It's a profound ritual.
	Yes, you don't get to third degree as you have easily at all, do you?
	As a witch, it's a lot of work.
	Third degree, actually, in Freemasonry, I am a Master Mason, but there is a very long path ahead of me there.
	Really?
	I mean, there's a long path behind you.
	There are a total of 33 degrees in Freemasonry.
	Right.
	In co-masonry, in masonry for men and women, as well as the more traditional male-only craft.
	How is your witchcraft greeted by the Freemasons?
	We don't discuss it a lot.
	We don't discuss religion at all much.
	There is... The broom closet?
	No, it's not the broom closet.
	No, it's known that we're witches.
	And as a matter of fact, I sent out an email today once it came up on your website that I was going to be on this evening to all the members of my lodge saying, I'm going to be on our show.
	I'm so excited.
	And please, if you happen to be up at midnight, it would be great if you turned in and listened.
	One of the things that makes some of the French Order Masonic groups different is we accept atheists with open arms as well as people who have a religious belief.
	And it doesn't matter what your religious belief is, or the lack thereof.
	We're all brothers and sisters.
	All right.
	You said you would go to your cat, if you wanted.
	I would go to Bast.
	Yes.
	Yeah, the goddess Bast.
	That's right.
	All right.
	So, do witches believe in God as we traditionally think of the God of the Bible?
	No.
	Do witches believe in the devil?
	No.
	The devil is very much a creation of dualistic religions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism.
	You've got this good-bad dichotomy going on in all of those faiths.
	There is good and bad in all of us.
	The prime example that I like to use is, are you talking about Benedict Arnold, the American traitor, or Benedict Arnold, the British hero?
	Same guy, same actions.
	I did a show with Blanche Barton.
	You know about that, I think.
	Church of Satan, High Priestess, Church of Satan.
	She considers herself a witch.
	Do you consider her to be one?
	I don't consider her to be a witch because I don't see a spiritual aspect to what she does or what she believes.
	And there is woefully little that any of us agree on what witchcraft is or what makes a witch, but I think we're all unanimous in that idea that there has to be a spiritual element there, and I don't see it with her.
	I thought she was a fantastic guest.
	She was, and I guess you heard my reaction, and it was a delayed reaction.
	Yes, I did.
	I rarely have such a reaction to a guest as I did to her.
	Because when I interviewed her, she was articulate, she was smooth as silk, and I just, I sort of sat here in a trance, not quite, but close, as I listened to her, and then I went home and I thought about it, and people said, oh man, that wasn't a scary show at all, that really, that was awful, it just wasn't scary, and then the next day, when I thought about it, I thought, you know, actually that was scary.
	Because instead of making it seem scary, no rattling bones, no skeletons, none of that baloney, she did the sweet sell and I realized once it was all over, I bought it.
	At least temporarily.
	She was extremely articulate and a very good voice for her path.
	Absolutely.
	Yes.
	But I don't think she was a witch.
	Okay.
	But I'm sure that has no effect on her at all.
	She doesn't come to me for legitimacy and I would be curious as to why she would call herself a witch.
	I just don't see it.
	Yeah, I don't see it either.
	And then on top of everything else, I think the first question, I have trouble with my first questions, just like I hit you up with one tonight.
	I think I asked her, do you worship Satan?
	Long pause.
	No.
	It's like, okay, what are we going to do now?
	You're the high priestess of the church of Satan and you don't worship Satan.
	I read the Satanic Bible many, many years ago, and what I got from it and what I know of Anton LaVey is that he was a consummate carny, a showman, and it's a lot of smoke and mirrors.
	I don't know what they really believe.
	But it's a lot of effect.
	And good ritual is a good effect.
	Whether it be a satanic ritual, which I've never seen or participated in, or a Wiccan ritual, or a Freemasonic ritual, or a Catholic ritual.
	These are all very powerful, experiential passion plays, if you will.
	And it takes an artist to pull it off.
	Would you, do you remember Father Malachi Martin?
	Did you listen that long ago?
	Yeah, absolutely, yes.
	Yes, I sure, I remember him very well.
	And again, his was a tragic loss and apparently under some slightly odd circumstances.
	I would say, yes.
	In a way, I mean, I cannot compare you and Father Martin or people go crazy, but You are very high up in what you do, and almost a conservative.
	Father Martin was a very conservative Catholic.
	Very conservative.
	People may have forgotten that about him because he talked about a lot of things, but believe me, Father Martin was a conservative, and so are you.
	Sort of an old, very old-school practitioner, either of Catholicism or, in your case, of witchcraft.
	I think that's a fair assessment, yes.
	Yeah, it is.
	People won't like it.
	Making that analogy, but I think it's a fitting one, and so you're the real thing, and it's a little hard for me to know what to ask a witch.
	You know, it's funny, when Sharon called when we had the trouble, every phone line in this place lit up people with questions, and so I'm tempted to open the phone lines really early and let people ask questions.
	Um, if that wouldn't bother you.
	Not at all.
	Oh, no.
	I'd be glad to.
	Whatever I can do to serve, I have to.
	Let me ask this.
	If somebody came to you, and I'm not suggesting that you do this because I know you don't help people in the same sense or way that Evelyn Paglini did, but if somebody came to you with a real problem, would you or could you give them advice From the position you're in, or is that something you avoid?
	Oh, no.
	I'm very happy to give people advice.
	Oh.
	As much as I can, yes.
	Oh.
	You know, I say this because I was married to a witch.
	I think most people in my audience know this.
	Ramona was a witch.
	Yes.
	That it works.
	That's the thing about this.
	I know it works.
	And I guess I could ask you why it works.
	And what kind of answer would you give me?
	Why does witchcraft work?
	It works because, especially for those of us who have practiced a long time, we have learned how to form intent to such a degree that we can use that interconnectedness that Nassim Haraman talked about.
	Where he is a theoretical physicist, we are, for all intents and purposes, applied physicists.
	We work with those energies, and that's why it works.
	But to apply those energies effectively, it takes a long, long time.
	And you've been at it a long, long time.
	So you can actually apply them.
	The average person can't go down to the library, pick up a book, read for a few minutes, and start casting spells with any effect, right?
	That's correct.
	Well, that's what I thought.
	Should witchcraft scare people at all?
	I don't think so.
	I think we are a really... Sweet bunch?
	A sweet bunch.
	Not with some of the witches I know.
	We are goddess-loving, earth-loving, spiritual people who love our mother.
	Who love your mother?
	We love our mother, Mother Earth.
	Mother Earth, okay.
	And we try to do the best for her as we can.
	I don't think we should.
	We don't start wars.
	We don't kill people in the name of our religion.
	I'd say we're probably some of the most peaceful people around as a religious group.
	Okay, so I've got a lot of experience, Debbie, with groups, right?
	Groups like church groups or Oh, I don't know.
	Baseball fans with, you know, kids playing softball and stuff.
	Little League.
	Internet groups.
	Groups of all kinds.
	And, you know, a coven is a group.
	And you're in a coven.
	Now, groups have this way of, I don't know, Sort of deteriorating into political infighting and I would imagine that that would be true even in a coven.
	Would I be right?
	You would be absolutely right.
	That's why it's a very fluid nature of a coven.
	I know that Christian churches generally have a stable population.
	People come and go from covens, and there may be a core group that have learned to work together and work well and can bring those energies up.
	And then there are people who come and go and, you know, are there for a couple of months or a couple of years and decide it's not for them.
	But I mean there are jealousies, there's egos involved like any group, right?
	Yes, absolutely.
	When I was first brought in by Fred, he and his former high priestess had divorced.
	We met and I was brought in as high priestess over people Who had been there longer than me were higher degreed than me, so of course there were resentments.
	Part of what I needed to do very early on was to reach out and to let people know that they as individuals were very important to me, that my status did not, should not in any way lessen them and that I, to
	be a good high priestess, I really needed them.
	Alright, alright, we need to break here so hold tight.
	We trust you.
	But remember, the NSA... Well, you know.
	To call the show, please dial 1-952-225-5278.
	That's 1-952-CALL-ART.
	So, Debbie Anderson is the real thing.
	In every way.
	She is a witch.
	24 years at it.
	She can push more than air with her hands.
	That bears investigation.
	Uh, you can do everything up to, uh, take a life with witchcraft.
	This kind of witchcraft.
	She is also a Freemason.
	She's also an attorney.
	A criminal attorney.
	In Washington, D.C.
	And we've got her, uh, and I want to add before I let it go, that after this show, there is a group that follows this show.
	Can't think of their name just off the top of my head, but I know they put a message in here saying that they somehow hooked you Into coming on and answering sort of after show questions.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	I am open for anything.
	Really?
	And did you get the name of the group?
	No, I didn't.
	Oh.
	Huh.
	Well, I'll look around for it.
	It's somewhere on here.
	And when I get it, I'll I'll put it up.
	I should know it.
	You know, they're a group that follows the show, and so it'd be pretty cool that you'll do that, and I appreciate your doing that.
	They are an Art Bell group, so that's very nice.
	So anyway, when people meet you, people on the street, people who don't know you and then find out about you, and since you're out of the room closet, they do find out about you, I guess, if I were to casually begin reading about you on the internet, would I learn you're a witch?
	I'm trying to think.
	Certainly it's obvious on my Facebook page.
	I have listings under LinkedIn and also on Avvo, which are business sites.
	I don't think so.
	Actually, I don't think so.
	It's not something I push in that way, but I don't hide it, but I don't say, hi there, I'm a witch.
	It's not part of what I do when first meeting somebody or my very shallow public face.
	So, you know, somebody looked you up on Facebook, they'd become aware, but otherwise You've got a foot in the broom closet, sort of, or did, until tonight maybe?
	I guess so, yes.
	But it's not something I would ever hide.
	My husband and I were actually, a group wanted to photograph us for an animal rights activity and the photographer wanted me to put my pentacle inside my clothes and I refused to.
	Really?
	Yes.
	I wear my pentacle out when I'm in court.
	I also wear my Masonic square encompasses pin when I'm in court, and people find that very surprising, because I guess in some circles... Or intimidating.
	Well, being a woman and being a Mason seems to be more of an issue in some circles than being a witch, quite honestly.
	I don't know what that's about, but that's just been my experience.
	Okay, so here we go.
	Nick says, Art, I'm a tax attorney and I also practice witchcraft.
	I routinely deal with clients of various faiths and often have difficult conversations about the intersection of my beliefs and profession.
	And he's asking how you deal with that.
	I am not familiar with tax issues so much, Nick, but when people come to me, they're in trouble.
	They really don't care about what my religion is.
	What they care about is how I can help them stay out of jail.
	And I have a pretty good record of doing that.
	That's all that people care about.
	Abnormally good?
	I like to think so.
	I will say that I'm very proud of the fact that since the Heller decision was handed down by the Supreme Court, I've had about a dozen and a half, two dozen gun and ammo cases here in D.C.
	and I have won every one of them.
	Wow.
	That also has something to do with the fact that D.C.
	is crazy in some of the cases that it prosecutes, but yeah, I'm pretty proud of that record.
	They're pretty tough on guns in D.C., right?
	They're pretty tough on guns, but honestly some of the charges that are brought are ridiculous.
	And that's where really fighting, I mean fighting to win as opposed to come out with a reasonable accommodation is really, is very important.
	And that's what I do.
	And apparently very well too.
	That's quite, just the little bit you gave me is quite a remarkable record.
	And you think witchcraft Absolutely aids you in your work.
	Absolutely.
	I mean, people may go, it's terrible.
	It's really not.
	It's no worse than a Catholic saying they pray for a good outcome.
	Exactly.
	In whatever they're doing.
	I have clients who are very believing Christians and I know that they're praying the night before a trial.
	So do I.
	All right, let's make this a sort of a rolling conversation.
	Here is, I think, Brad on Skype?
	No, Brad hung up.
	Oh, Brad.
	I'm going to try again.
	He's calling back.
	Brad, are you there this time?
	Brad?
	Hola, amigo.
	Hola.
	Turn off your device.
	You got it, Pontiac.
	Thank you.
	Amigo Roswells, my friend.
	Thank you.
	Okay, my wife.
	She was a dark witch in a former life, and she wants some advice on how to be a light witch in this life.
	All right, your device is still on, and the spell is close to being cast, so turn it off, please.
	I mean, you heard what might happen, right?
	There you go.
	You got her.
	Okay, good.
	Brad, does she want advice, or do you want advice for her?
	She wants the advice, but she doesn't want to go in the air.
	I see.
	You want to talk to her?
	Yes, we do, but the device is still on.
	I'm telling you, the spell's coming.
	Turn it off.
	Or she's never going to get her advice.
	Okay, we want the advice.
	I can still hear it.
	This is strict stuff here, buddy.
	Please put your wife on, Brad.
	I really don't bite, honest.
	I do.
	I bite, so turn it off and put your wife on.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Hi, Wife of Brad, what's your name?
	Stephanie.
	Hi, Stephanie.
	Please let me know what I can do for you.
	Well, I am newly into witchcraft in this life, but it's very comfortable for me, and I've been told by other witches that I have come across that I was a dark witch.
	In previous life.
	And I'm just wondering how I can do light work in this one, because I find myself falling back into old patterns, if that makes sense.
	Certainly, yes, I understand what you're saying.
	Certainly, it would be a great idea To work light to serve people.
	Do you have any interest in working in soup kitchens?
	In volunteering at an animal shelter?
	Those are the kinds of things that I see as being very beneficial, because witchcraft and human living should ultimately be about service.
	Right.
	So, if you're out there doing something that's helping others, that is, I think, a very Positive way to work light.
	If you want something that is more personal, I would get a candle.
	I personally like soy wax or coconut wax candles.
	I don't like candles that are made from slaughterhouse products because you're taking in an awful lot of suffering and misery along with With that candle.
	So if you get a white candle that's made out of some non-animal product, tie a white ribbon around it.
	Okay.
	And if you can get a piece of oak, fortunately we have the internet these days and we can get anything online.
	Right.
	Oak is about power and strength.
	And burn that candle in a private area and just concentrate on all the good qualities that you have.
	Okay.
	And concentrate on the fact that you have come back to witchcraft in this lifetime.
	Okay.
	And you're seeing its positive, beautiful aspects.
	Yeah.
	So, those are the two things that I would do.
	Service to others and peace and healing for yourself.
	Okay.
	Excellent.
	Thank you so much.
	Right.
	Thank you for calling.
	You're very welcome.
	Thank you.
	Feel free to call again.
	Now, there inevitably are people like this, people who are telling me, Art, you're being tricked again.
	Being tricked, actually, by Satan himself, says Larry.
	This witchcraft, as you call it, is Satanism.
	Want to respond to that?
	No, I'm not a Satanist.
	I don't believe in Satan.
	I don't believe in that evil dark side.
	To be a Satanist, you actually have to be a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, because those are the religions that believe in Satan.
	Sorry.
	I know, you know, that's why I made that the first question for Blanche Barton.
	Because I was going to go right there.
	You know, you can't believe in one without believing in the other, but she was too smart for me.
	She hit me with a no right away.
	Just almost broke my heart.
	All right, so that sounded like really good advice.
	Service to others, all good stuff, and it really does work.
	But when you're faced with, well, all right, let's look at your work.
	When you're faced with defending a criminal, an alleged criminal.
	An alleged criminal, yes.
	Thank you.
	Now I really know you're an attorney.
	Using that, I guess, is perfectly all right.
	And if somebody objected to it, Why you could immediately turn around, no doubt, and sue them because witchcraft really is as much of a religion as anybody else's, right?
	Absolutely.
	And if they're going to ban me from a courthouse, or fortunately in Washington D.C.
	this does not happen, but theoretically if someone wanted to Create an issue that I was a witch in a courtroom in Washington, D.C.
	I would also say that every Baptist... Wouldn't that be the pot calling the kettle black?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Especially in D.C.
	Alright, let me ask you about love spells.
	People mostly don't want to kill other people, thank goodness.
	Although it certainly does occur.
	More frequently, they're interested in something, I don't want to say more mundane, because not really.
	Love is a very, very powerful thing, and if you're in love with somebody, and it's unrequited, you know, it's not returned, you might be tempted to go to somebody like Debbie, like you, and ask if a love spell could be conjured.
	Could it?
	And would it work?
	Theoretically, yes.
	Would I do it?
	No.
	Why?
	Because forcing someone to love you is painful magic, and I don't practice painful magic.
	What I would give that person are the tools to attract love into their lives.
	Well, in every movie I've seen on the subject, it always works, and then it over works.
	In other words, Uh, the person finally gets tired of the constant attention, their love to death, and they finally have to go back and ask for the spell to be recalled.
	Problems that people come to witches with are generally, I think, in three categories.
	There's money, there's love, and there's protection.
	And kind of as a subset of protection are illness, or problems with illness.
	And there are ways of building yourself up And attracting what you need without forcing someone else to do something.
	And once you start trying to force somebody else to do something, you're practicing baneful magic and getting very close to the edge of our ethics.
	And that's something I just won't do.
	Well, there is a question about ethics.
	You have a code of ethics in Witchcraft, right Debbie?
	Yes, we do.
	The basic statement is, and ye harm none, do as ye will.
	I believe in that, and I believe that forcing someone to act in a way contrary to their nature is harming them.
	So, that's why I don't do love spells to force XYZ to fall in love with you.
	But it can be done.
	Yes, it can be done.
	And then you're bringing, I also believe in karma, and another thing that almost all of us witches believe in is the law of threefold return.
	What you sent out comes back to you three times over.
	I don't want to take that heavy karmic burden on myself.
	I don't want to do something that is going to stab me in the back later down the line.
	Is there any way in witchcraft to prevent Or mitigate that karmic return that's going to come to you no matter what?
	Or is there a way to mitigate it if you're way high up in witchcraft?
	I would say a lot of prayers, saying how sorry you are that you did whatever you did that is putting you in fear of your eternal soul being Yeah, being in a great deal of trouble.
	So, you believe we have eternal souls?
	Yes.
	All right.
	Now, maybe we're getting somewhere.
	Hold on, Debbie.
	So, we have eternal souls.
	I wonder who the... Well, we're the temporary custodians of them, right?
	But... Final destination.
	Eternal souls and final destination.
	That'll be my question.
	We'll be right back.
	These calls are unscreened for your listening pleasure.
	Call 1-952-CALL-ART.
	That's 1-952-225-5278.
	Indeed, unscreened for your listening pleasure.
	And by the way, I usually don't do this, but I want to do it.
	I had so many emails, so many calls about this LED technology, and all I can tell you is this.
	I have had a really bad back all my life.
	You know, the kind of back where sometimes you can't walk and it bothers you every day?
	That kind of bad back.
	And this LED technology, as I said in the ad, ain't cheap.
	But it works.
	It's the only thing I've ever actually found that does.
	So when you hear me do that Lumen commercial, know that I'm telling you it works.
	And if any of you try it, I'd be really interested to hear how it works for you.
	It was a miracle for me.
	Their phone number again, and I'm not going to do this again, I'm not going to repeat it again, but I wanted to, you know, I don't endorse something lightly.
	I actually had to talk them into doing a commercial.
	It's area code 828-863-4834.
	code 828-863-4834. Only thing that's ever worked for me, ever, except on a very temporary
	All right, once again, back to Debbie, and we were talking immortal souls, it seems to me, and then I was thinking immortal souls and final destination.
	And once you begin talking about an immortal soul, well, tell me about your concept of what an immortal soul is, and whether we do indeed have final destinations or do you do which is believe in reincarnation or where are you there?
	Most of us do believe in reincarnation.
	One of the ways that we differ in our outlook on reincarnation say the difference between us and say Buddhists or Hindus they are We're trying to get off the wheel of life and death and rebirth.
	We like it here on planet Earth.
	We're not looking to get off.
	We're looking to learn lessons and have experiences and hopefully be better to our fellow human beings and other non-human animals, but we're happy where we are.
	Is it actually possible to get off the wheel, as you put it?
	In other words, to not be reincarnated?
	Probably, I think so.
	My understanding is that there are a few Buddhists who have achieved that status, but That's not something that we spend a lot of time with.
	It's probably like sitting in a Chevrolet dealer's waiting room, you know?
	You can have coffee and you go, thinking back to earlier in the day.
	So if you're not reincarnated, then what?
	Is there a heaven?
	Is there a hell?
	You don't think so, right?
	Or do you?
	There's some sort of afterlife.
	I presume I will find it when I get there, if I can explain it this way.
	And this is not to pick on Catholics, because I love Catholics.
	I find a lot of similarities between Catholicism and witchcraft.
	We have gods and goddesses, they have saints.
	But a Catholic will say, God is unknowable, and then spend 500 or 1,000 pages writing about God.
	We say the Goddess is unknowable.
	Do you have another question?
	All right.
	So, we're very much about in the now, and not worried so much about what happens afterwards.
	And you're both very much into ritual.
	Yes.
	Oh, yes.
	Ritual just transports you to another place.
	I love good ritual.
	Absolutely.
	Love it.
	Probably don't have good stained windows though, huh?
	We don't have good stained windows, but we have great trees.
	Great trees.
	All right.
	Let's make this a rolling conversation.
	Barbara on Skype.
	You're on the air with Debbie.
	Hi.
	Hi, Barbara.
	Can you hear me?
	Yes, we hear you.
	Good to ask you that.
	This is a very interesting show, and I have a lot of interest in the whole witch thing, partly because I've been very interested in it since I was a child.
	I kind of always thought I was a witch, and I don't know if that's fantasy, but I do have strong ESP.
	I live by it.
	I have dreams that come true on occasion.
	I have a lot of interaction with ghosts, and I don't know if that has anything to do with Witches or not, but I listen to their advice.
	I'm never sure if that's what I'm doing, but... You listen to the advice of ghosts?
	Yes, yes.
	I have had, um... Well, let's ask Debbie.
	Debbie is... Well, my question is, let me get to this real quick and then you can ask that.
	Alright, sure.
	Is there anything, and I'm a Christian, and so I'm very uncomfortable with all this, but I've been told that your natural abilities, is there such thing as a natural witch?
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	You're welcome.
	There are certainly people who have a greater ability than others.
	I think we're probably all natural witches if we decide that we want to enhance certain abilities.
	Okay.
	But if you want to hone that ability, if you really want to get good in witchcraft, it requires many years, if not decades, right?
	I'd say many years, absolutely.
	A neurosurgeon doesn't read a book and then go operate on a brain.
	It takes many years of study of the body, many years of working under an accomplished neurosurgeon in order to be able to do that yourself.
	Right.
	So my question was going to be, is one destination for the immortal soul possibly becoming a ghost in your view?
	As I understand ghosts, they are the soul after a person has passed over.
	I'm not sure why they would want to stay in that state, but it's not for me to judge.
	Is it possible for that to be their end goal?
	Yes.
	would presume that nobody really wants to be a ghost.
	I mean, you know, if you live in all this, then you want to go to heaven or you want to be reincarnated.
	You definitely don't want to go down.
	And so a ghost is kind of a, I just wondered if you, if witches embrace or witchcraft embraces the possibility of ghostliness, even if only temporarily.
	Can a spirit be trapped?
	Certainly, yes.
	At least most of us do.
	So a spirit can be trapped?
	A spirit can be trapped?
	There's, there's, I'm sorry?
	A spirit can be trapped?
	Yes, yes.
	A spirit can feel that he or she has unfinished business and for some reason wants to finish it now as opposed to coming back with the people that they have unfinished business with.
	I believe in group reincarnation, not individual.
	You know, we come back together.
	All right, all right.
	Hold it right there.
	We're going to take our break and we'll talk more about reincarnation.
	Stay right there.
	You can't get away from me.
	I'm not afraid of you.
	Will you partake of that last offer cup?
	cup.
	Or disappear into the pottery trash?
	When the man becomes a rat.
	Midnight in the Desert spans the world.
	To call us from outside the US and Canada only, use Skype with a headset mic,
	if on a computer, and call MITV55.
	That's MITV55.
	Alright, when you call on Skype, whether it's domestically in North America,
	or worldwide, it doesn't matter.
	Once you hear audio, in other words, I pick up on this end,
	once you hear audio, the first thing for you to do
	is turn your device down.
	Before I get to you.
	When you hear that audio, same goes for the phone.
	You're going to get on.
	You're going to make it, so just hang in there.
	Debbie is my guest, Debbie Anderson.
	She is the real McCoy.
	She is a real witch and rather high up in witchery.
	Is that right?
	I'd rather hold in witchery.
	Okay, we'll give myself that.
	Reincarnation has always been a really favorite.
	I just heard a half-belief in reincarnation, to be honest with you.
	If there is an immortal soul, and I hope there is, Reincarnation makes sense, except it doesn't make sense.
	In other words, as you look at the increasing population of the Earth from when Adam took the bite, or whatever you consider the beginning to be, until now, when we've got, I don't know, what is it, six and a half billion, seven billion people, all kinds of lots of people, It doesn't seem to leave room for reincarnation unless there's a pool of new souls constantly sort of falling like apples from a tree.
	I'll tell you what I believe, and we witches don't agree on a whole lot.
	There are a lot of different traditions, so different traditions believe different things.
	What I believe is that there are new souls being created, but not every soul has to be reincarnated on this planet at all times.
	I believe that there are other planets that are inhabited, and there are souls out there waiting for their next incarnation, deciding what lessons they want to learn.
	We don't all have to be here at one time.
	That actually makes sense.
	It makes sense that out there, among all those little dots of light you see, those are all suns, planets going around them, so there probably is life out there, and is there something in control of it all?
	Like God?
	Or like a maker?
	Well, maybe, huh?
	Something.
	Something, God, geometry.
	I know that the G in Freemasonry, that wonderful symbol that we in that craft have, can stand for all sorts of things.
	And I believe in some unifying force.
	Then it does make sense.
	In the larger picture, if you believe life is out there, as you just suggested, you don't always get reincarnated on Earth.
	Makes sense.
	So it rips that part of my objection away to reincarnation.
	Let's see what else is there.
	Oh, yes.
	Reincarnation supposedly, according to the masters and Buddhists, is so that one might Well, I don't know, sort of re-up themselves and fix whatever little thing or big thing was wrong in the last life.
	In other words, make it better, right?
	Yes, that is a very Buddhist interpretation.
	Mine is a little different.
	I believe that we're here to learn lessons, whatever those lessons may be.
	It doesn't necessarily have to be that we have some dreadful character flaw that needs to be fixed.
	Many of us do.
	Buddhists, well yes, many of us do.
	Yes, but it's not necessarily what it's about.
	It's about whatever lessons we've decided that we need to learn.
	Alright, but here's the problem with reincarnation.
	Since nobody has seemingly any sort of conscious memory of a prior life, how is a lesson learned or even remembered?
	I would say that I disagree with you on not remembering a previous life, at least parts of it.
	When I met Fred, as far as I knew, that was the first time I'd ever laid eyes on him in this lifetime, but I knew him.
	there is no question in my mind but that we have been together for many, many lifetimes.
	Um, I don't, I shouldn't laugh at that.
	I just recently saw a movie and I can't remember the name.
	It was about eyes and reincarnation and if you haven't seen it the name will occur to me or I will look it up but it was absolutely an astounding Downing movies, so I'll get you the name and and I think you'd be very interested in meantime Somebody named maple is here on Skype.
	Hello Hello, Mark.
	Can you hear me?
	You sound like you're in a tunnel So if you're on a computer get real close to that little spot, that is the microphone and talk into that Okay, sorry.
	I'm actually on a computer setup.
	Is this any better?
	No, it's awful.
	So, do you have a camera?
	Wait a minute, wait a minute.
	I'm gonna help you out here.
	Do you have a camera?
	I do.
	You do.
	And that's the mic you're talking through.
	So grab your camera right now off the computer.
	I'm talking through a Rode NT1, so it actually does sound great when I'm using Adobe Audition, but Skype probably isn't the best.
	Let me change my input settings here.
	All right.
	Yes, I'll look forward to that.
	I'm pretty anal about this, folks.
	I can imagine.
	I'll just try calling you back, Art.
	It's okay.
	All right.
	Yeah, good.
	Thank you.
	I am bad about that.
	I want to hear good audio.
	That's the whole point of Skype and if you're yelling five feet away from your computer or talking five feet away from your computer it sounds just like he sounded.
	Not good.
	I will say I have not used Skype until this opportunity presented itself and it's just amazing.
	It is.
	You actually sound like you're right here in the studio with me And that makes for a wonderful interview.
	We can hear each other's voice inflections, as you cannot on a regular phone.
	Anyway, back to Skype.
	This is somebody named Larry, who I hope is doing it right.
	Hello, Larry.
	Hello, Art.
	Hi.
	Hi, Larry.
	How are you doing?
	Doing fine.
	Very well, thank you.
	And yourself?
	Yeah, for your guests, my question is this.
	You are identifying as a witch.
	And the Mason.
	I mean, so what are your views on Lucifer?
	Lucifer is Latin for light bearer.
	It's a... I think that light is... bringing the light is a wonderful thing.
	Okay, so that means that you worship Lucifer?
	No.
	No, I worship Bast.
	She is the Egyptian goddess of pleasure.
	And she manifests as a black cat.
	Okay, I'm having a problem with the duality between your masonry and witchcraft.
	I don't get how those two go together really.
	I apologize, I don't have a problem with them.
	Why do you have a problem with the color?
	It may be that I just don't know enough about it, but there's things that I have heard about it.
	I also heard, I didn't think women could be a mason.
	That is true for the two predominant orders of Freemasonry in the United States, one being Free and Accepted Masonry, the second is Prince Hall Masonry.
	I am a member of the Order Le Droit Humain, the American Federation.
	This is an order that came out of France and also has a lot of adherents in England.
	But we are co-equal with men in my order.
	There is no difference, man or woman, religion or not religion.
	We're all Freemasons and brothers and sisters together.
	Okay.
	Well, thank you very much.
	That clears it up a bit.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	And that allowed me to find the movie I wanted.
	It's called I, Just the letter, I Origins.
	Oh, the letter, okay.
	I Origins.
	I Origins.
	You're going to want to see this.
	Trust me, you're going to want to see it.
	I will definitely do that.
	Amazing, amazing story, and sort of a movie that not that many people have heard of, I guess.
	Let's go to the phones, actually, and say, hello, you're on the air with Debbie Anderson.
	Hi, Debbie, how you doing?
	Hi, Art.
	I'm well, thank you.
	How are you?
	Alright, now from everything I'm getting tonight, you do not practice black magic, right?
	No, I don't practice black magic.
	I'm not sure that I know what black magic is, but I don't harm, I do not seek to harm anyone.
	Okay, and then you have, you do have ethics then, right?
	And you're an attorney, so, and you're a criminal attorney, so if you were defending someone Who you know was guilty of deliberately taking someone's life.
	First degree murder.
	Would you defend that person?
	Number one, a person can be charged with first-degree murder.
	They are not a first-degree murderer until a judge or jury has made that determination.
	I look at the law in the following way.
	It does not matter what the person may or may not have done.
	It matters what the government can prove, and that is the basis of our law.
	It's what can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.
	True, but I have no problem if you knew the person had taken a life.
	This is always a terrible question for an attorney.
	Let me ask you, Debbie, would you say that you have more ethics as a witch than you do as an attorney?
	I think they're different ethics.
	I think that both are very pure in what they are.
	My ethics as an attorney are to, especially in the, one of the reasons that I chose to practice in the District of Columbia is the word zealously.
	Our ethics are to defend our clients zealously.
	And I find that personally very important.
	Here comes that noise again.
	Debbie, Debbie, we're getting that noise again.
	Can you jiggle your mic cord a little bit?
	Just jiggle it.
	Let's try that.
	Is this any better?
	No.
	It's getting worse and worse.
	So, let's disconnect, and you call me back again immediately, okay?
	I will do that, okay.
	All right, thank you.
	I have no idea what that is, but I have suspicions.
	I have my suspicions.
	Now, if it is possible, and here she is.
	Okay, Debbie, let's see.
	Is that much better?
	It's right back to being bad again.
	Oh dear, oh dear.
	Yes, oh dear.
	Um... Shall I hang up and wait for two minutes?
	You know, I want to know something.
	I want to know if actually it's your connection or my connection.
	And the way I can find out for sure is to answer another Skype call.
	Hello there.
	Chairman?
	Meow?
	Hey, it's, it's Maple back here.
	Okay.
	Do I sound better now?
	Um, you do.
	You sound fine.
	Great.
	Yeah.
	So I'm glad to have you back.
	I'm glad you called back and my, our Skype connection is fine.
	And Debbie, let's test ours.
	Not good.
	Not good.
	Uh, let, let me try to call you back this time.
	Okay.
	So let's disconnect.
	And I will call you back, and we'll see if perhaps the other path is going to work.
	Isn't this odd?
	It's kind of like, oh, I don't know, it's kind of like somebody's after us.
	Somebody has cast a spell out there or something.
	So I am calling Linda now.
	We'll see if she answers.
	In the meantime, let's go back.
	The person whom you're trying to reach... Yes, yes, yes, yes.
	Yeah, she's got something going on on her end, obviously.
	So, Collar, you're back on the air again.
	Hey, thank you, Art.
	Sure.
	I was just going to ask Debbie if... I remember seeing a news article a couple of years ago about Halloween being cancelled in a school in Washington State because it was offensive to witches, and I wanted to get her take on that.
	Halloween being cancelled?
	Yeah, Halloween, the school, the school's Halloween party anyway.
	Because it was offensive to witches?
	That's what, exactly!
	That's what I wanted to get a take on from a real witch here.
	Okay.
	See what she thinks.
	Are you back, Debbie?
	I just realized why I was calling her Linda earlier.
	Because somebody named Linda was calling as I was trying to get hold of Debbie.
	So, um, there you have it.
	I'm going to continue to try to get her back.
	In the meantime, sir, there's not a whole lot I can do.
	That's not a problem.
	Yes.
	Let's see.
	Yeah, not a whole lot I can do.
	Offensive to witches?
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	It was, uh, how do you spell it?
	It was like P-U-Y-A-L-L-U-P Washington.
	Pull you up, Washington.
	Pull you up, yeah.
	I'm familiar with it.
	All right, well, hopefully she's listening.
	We will get this connection back one way or the other, and she's writing down these questions, and we'll respond to them.
	Thank you.
	Awesome.
	Thank you, Art.
	Right.
	Take care.
	And that's the way you do it.
	Get close to the computer, get it set up, and you're all set.
	Now, I'm seeing it suggested to me that she unplug the USB headset that she's got plugged in and plug it back in again.
	Maybe it is a USB connected problem.
	Weird.
	On the phone, uh, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yeah, I was just curious if she had ever dealt with the demonic, uh, any possession, um, in her travels.
	Well, you know what?
	Uh, she said, I hate to answer for her, but she doesn't believe in the devil.
	So I kind of doubt that she would have I mean, there would be bad things, I suppose, that you would have to deal with, but she actually doesn't believe in the devil, so I doubt she had to deal with demonic presence.
	Well, okay.
	Or if she did, she'd be reforming her opinions, right?
	Yeah, I hear you.
	Have you?
	Me?
	No.
	I've had a few women that I was very suspicious about in my life.
	Thank you for the call, sir.
	Take care.
	A few women in my life.
	They were not at first, of course, but eventually they seemed somewhat demonic.
	Hello there.
	Hi, R. How are you?
	Thanks for having me on.
	I'm doing okay.
	Alright, well, I had two questions for your guest, but before that, and I know she's not on right now.
	No, she's not.
	But go ahead and ask them, because she'll make notes.
	Okay, but, and before I do that, let me just say, you know, your new show coming on to the internet is paving the way for a new way of doing radio.
	It is.
	And you know what, Debbie, Debbie, maybe... Yes, I'm here.
	Heather suggested that I unplug my microphone and plug it back in.
	And it worked.
	Excellent.
	So, Caller, you are so in luck.
	She's right here.
	Go.
	Awesome.
	Awesome.
	All right.
	And I do have two quick questions, but can I just finish my thought real quick to what I was going to say to you, Art?
	Yes.
	Really important.
	Yes.
	In fact, to the entire listening community.
	Yes.
	I know you're going through some growing pains a little bit with the technical aspects.
	You probably have high-speed connection and can get all the bandwidth you need, but then the people calling in or the guests might not have the same bandwidth, so you get bad connection.
	But, when I worked at Headquarters Special Operations Command as the Data Manager of the Special Operations Joint Interagency Collaboration Center, MITRE organization was working for Google to meta-tag the entire internet, which they are now controlling.
	I would love for you and your allies to get together and create a new internet for the
	people because the government is now, actually the United States Corporation, because they're
	not a government, they're just posing as a government.
	Okay, so our time is very nearly up, we're at a break.
	Okay, so my two quick questions.
	First of all, you said you asked her, you asked your guest about how witchcraft works.
	Yes.
	I read a book called Hypnosis a long time ago that separates the conscious from the
	subculture.
	And we're not actually physical beings.
	We're actually ghosts to other dimensions.
	So the question is what?
	Does she believe that really everything including religion and witchcraft is self-hypnosis?
	Alright, we'll have to accept that and we'll tackle it when we get back.
	We're at a break.
	This is Midnight in the Desert.
	I wonder if I'm born again.
	Very, very interesting, actually.
	To initiate a dialogue sequence with Art Bell, please coordinate your Phalanges and call
	1952-225-5278.
	That's 1952.
	Call Art.
	Interesting.
	Very, very interesting, actually.
	Every time we've had trouble, every time Debbie's audio has begun to deteriorate, there is somebody
	named Linda, last name G, you know who you are, who's been calling me.
	And I keep thinking, oh, that's Debbie recalling.
	And it's not.
	It's Linda.
	But I wonder what Linda's doing.
	Because the only time she calls is after I've had trouble and Debbie and I have disconnected very odd.
	You don't know a witch named Linda, do you, Debbie?
	No, I don't, but I'm intrigued.
	So am I. I mean, every time we've had a problem, that call starts to come in.
	And it's on the screen as I'm, you know, sitting here trying to reconnect with you.
	And that's what had me call you Linda.
	And it's happened twice, if not three times now.
	And I think Debbie's after, or Linda's after us.
	So, I don't know.
	Keep it in mind.
	I will do that.
	All right, so the conscious, the unconscious, he was asking a question before the break.
	Yes.
	I was very confused by his question, quite honestly.
	Well, I think he was asking if a witchcraft is a combination of both, used together, I guess.
	Well, we're certainly all...
	When you project intent, for example.
	Yes.
	Right?
	When you project intent, it may well be both.
	Yes, I'd like to think that we are integrated human beings and that we come together with everything that we have.
	OK.
	All right.
	Let's try Skype again.
	I'm ever hopeful.
	Brad?
	Good evening.
	I think I'm here.
	I think you are here, yes.
	Okay, my devices are down.
	Good.
	I would like to say blessed greetings to a fellow Sister Witch.
	Blessed be, Brad.
	Blessed be.
	You had mentioned earlier that you gave worship to Bost, But you also mentioned another name earlier on, and I was listening on shortwave, and there was a bit of noise.
	You said Bast, as you're familiar, or Bast as your primary?
	Bast's my primary god, goddess form.
	I think you must have heard Mr. Butch, who is my familiar, and my dear, wonderful kitty.
	Ah, yes, okay.
	That's good.
	I have seen a lot of the chat traffic tonight, and yes, there have been trolls, but I just wanted to let some of the others know that I am also a practicing witch.
	I just about knocked over one of my cauldrons trying to get my headphones.
	I at first thought, okay, real witch, you know, do the air quotes.
	Okay, and as far as I have listened tonight, it sets well with the heart of all souls.
	I've been practicing for about 25 years as a pagan, and I would assume that you would qualify yourself as a pagan.
	Well certainly, witches are pagans, yes.
	Yes, okay.
	I'm more of a Celtic witch mage, so different traditions, different paths, but we do, you know, we do respect each other.
	Absolutely.
	My goddess is Macaw, my lord and lady are the Morrigan and the Dagda, and I'm sure other Celts are out there going, Hoosa!
	I'm also being referred to as the Snarky Pagan.
	Do you find that using a bit of humor, and yes, the ritual thing, and I want to get back to the ritual thing that you said, and I'm going to try and hurry this up, Art, because I've been in radio too.
	Doing ritual, setting the stage, do you find that when you do, you know, a ground cast call, call the circle, do the whole ritual thing, it actually does build the intent?
	And you collect that magic, that energy work, collect it, focus it, and send it out to whomever or wherever your intent be.
	Alright, that's where we're going to have to hold it.
	Go ahead.
	Absolutely, that is the working of a coven together is to find something that needs fixing or people ask for help and you get those energies together and Make it happen.
	I think one of the prime examples of this, and this is a story that I love and it's part of our folklore and I believe it happened, was I believe in 1940 when the Germans were threatening to invade Britain.
	Several covens met in New Forest and all brought up cones of power and pushed the Nazis back, pushed the Germans back.
	There's incredible power in working together in groups that work together over a long period of time and know how to work together.
	And, you know, you can't beat those sorts of energies.
	But yes, you certainly do start gathering them from the time you cast a circle.
	Let's go back to the ethics question.
	I want to explore that a little bit.
	It seems to me that from what I've heard from you, you have more ethics as a witch.
	Maybe that's the wrong way to put it.
	You have a stricter set of ethics as a witch than you may have as an attorney.
	I mean, many, many times as an attorney, you realize you are representing somebody who did something very bad.
	Your job is to the very best of your ability and to zealously defend that person.
	But that's not a defense you would make as a witch, is it?
	I think actually the ethics in lawyering are very strict also because we are ultimately officers of the court and we can't really lie.
	There are limits to what we are allowed to do.
	Again, I think it's the idea that you don't harm anyone.
	That goes with both Wiccan ethics and legal ethics.
	Yes, but, but, but.
	As an attorney, you might still go ahead and represent somebody that you're pretty well aware is guilty of sin, but as a witch, if you were aware that person was guilty of sin and they were asking your help in some, I don't know what it might be, but you might refuse that help based on your ethics as a witch.
	I would probably work harder to help them if I knew that they were guilty of something as a witch.
	Really?
	Yes.
	Especially practicing in D.C.
	Something that I have learned is this week's criminal, and I'm using criminal in Brad's air quotes, was last week's victim.
	I was going to say, next week's senator.
	Poor president!
	Aye yi yi.
	Well, you said humor was alright.
	Matthew, you are on here.
	Hang on, let me turn my radio off.
	Turn it off.
	Always do that.
	Hallelujah!
	Praise the Lord!
	Art Bell, this woman has not been cutting out because of Linda the witch.
	It's because I prayed against her.
	To keep your listeners from falling into the snare of Satan.
	Satan?
	Now she said she does not worship Satan.
	But, let me ask this.
	Do you worship the Horned God?
	Yes!
	The Horned God is a wonderful symbol of regenerative energy and masculine strength and I love him.
	You worship the horned god who insinuates himself into the Wiccan religion, but it is the devil.
	You worship the horned god and the triple goddess Hecate.
	You sell satanic jewelry to calm the working man out of his dollar.
	He's a good man.
	I think I'm probably not quite that bad, Matthew.
	That's all I can really say.
	Well, I sort of like you, but I wish you would come to the truth.
	Come to the Lord.
	It is not too late.
	I come to the Lord and the Lady.
	I play both sides of the street.
	I don't see deity as only masculine or only feminine.
	So I think I have the best of both worlds, really.
	How about that, Matthew?
	What?
	The best of both worlds, buddy.
	The best of both worlds?
	There is only one world, and it is the world of the Lord.
	This is a wicked and idolatrous teaching.
	Okay, well... I'm so sorry, Mr. Bell, but please, I will pray for you.
	We... Thank you.
	I would never turn down prayer.
	I'll pray for you, too, Matthew.
	Take care, buddy.
	And Debbie, here's where we break.
	I've got to.
	you will be right back to initiate a dialogue sequence with Art Bell, please
	coordinate your Philandes and call 1952-225-5273
	That's 1952.
	Call Art.
	Phones are absolutely going berserk, so a lot of people obviously want to talk to Debbie.
	And for obvious reasons, she is the real thing.
	Debbie Anderson is, um... You know, I really don't know how to say this in the way it should be said, but she is a very highly placed Which?
	And I know that's the wrong way to say it.
	You are way up at the top of the coven.
	You are conservative.
	You are old school.
	And, if annoyed, probably dangerous.
	Quite possibly.
	I try to keep it under control.
	All right.
	Well, let's continue along and see what we find.
	If you're up for it?
	I'm absolutely up for it.
	I would like to say one thing about reincarnation especially.
	We do reincarnate, I believe, at least in my tradition, as groups.
	And I have...I'm a witch, I'm an attorney, I'm also a big Art Bell fan as such.
	I'm I've been very nervous today and I just want to thank the group Art Bell Fans Undercover of tonight for having been so supportive of me today and letting me chat with them and telling me, you know, being
	Caring and warm and kind.
	It's a great Facebook group and they have given me so much support and I'm so grateful
	for them.
	As a general rule, Debbie, and these must be a great group of people, you know, fans
	and so forth, but as a general rule I recommend always against reading chat boards while you're
	doing a radio program because there will be trolls and there will be people who will come
	along and attempt to unnerve you and you're better off reading them after you've done
	the show.
	Oh, I agree.
	No, this was the day before the show when I was saying, I'm nervous, am I going to be okay?
	Oh, you're going to be fine.
	They were just wonderful.
	You're going to be fine.
	It's one of those things where the next time you and I do a show, and I can tell we're going to do another one, so you'll relax.
	You'll get used to it after a while, trust me.
	Okay?
	I will.
	And whenever in doubt, take a deep breath and just plow forward.
	Ground and center, yes.
	That's right.
	Scott, hello.
	You're on with Debbie.
	Hi, is that me?
	That's you.
	Yeah, I'm sorry.
	She caught me napping.
	Debbie, it's so nice to hear from someone from my old stomping grounds, Disneyland on the Potomac.
	Oh, well thank you, Scott.
	Yes, it still is Disneyland.
	Yeah, 61 square miles surrounded by reality.
	But anyway, two questions.
	One is, can you recommend a good book about Blue Star Tradition for a beginner?
	And I like the practical application of what you do.
	Up to and including something that I definitely would like to attract, and that is a window air conditioner.
	No, seriously, it would help a serious health problem that I have that's affected by heat, and also my cat and my bird would be thrilled to be cool and calm and collected.
	So, either of those two things would be very helpful, and I'll listen off the air.
	Actually, that's a really good question.
	Is there any application in Witchcraft for material gain?
	Absolutely, it is in his case.
	Finding where you can go to get such a critter.
	I would like to address also the first part of his question.
	Blue star, the tradition blue star has changed over time.
	The form that is practiced in my coven is a much more traditional hierarchical form than it later became. And the book that I always recommend to
	people that I think is just an excellent book is What Witches Do by Stuart Farah, F-A-R-R-A-R.
	It tells it like it is.
	As far as window air conditioning for health reasons, I wish you'd stayed on because we could have talked about exactly where you are now.
	I understand you're not in the D.C.
	area anymore, but there are resources.
	I don't know if this is permissible or not, Art.
	I can give an email address, and if he's still listening, I can certainly try to hook him up with some sort of a social service.
	I don't care.
	Okay.
	You want to give out your home phone number?
	Give that out.
	I don't care.
	I think I'll stick with the email address.
	Social Security number?
	No, sir.
	Okay.
	Email.
	Go ahead.
	DCANDE01 at gmail.com.
	I will, yes.
	Well, it's a general email, but I will...
	You know he's scrambling for a pencil or a pen and probably just now has it, so repeat it.
	dcande01 at gmail.com Okay. And if he gets to you, then you will attempt to help
	him?
	I will, yes.
	With the air conditioner or the health problem?
	With the air conditioner. I can also...
	He asked for help with the air conditioner.
	I would not be so presumptuous as to help him with his health problem.
	That's another part of our ethics.
	All right.
	I'm really interested in that.
	I've always been interested, actually, in the ethics of an attorney.
	And since I have you on, why not ask?
	When you really know somebody is guilty, And there's times, you know.
	Oh, sure.
	Of course.
	Yes, you can't lie.
	But in presenting what's called a very zealous defense, it gets pretty close.
	Yes, it can get close.
	We are the only profession, Art, that is self-regulating.
	Doctors are regulated by the state.
	Engineers, professional engineers, are regulated by the state.
	Accountants are.
	Nurses are.
	We are self-regulating through our state bars.
	And that is something that we never want to have changed.
	So we actually are fairly strict.
	But there are, yes, you can, One of the tricks in effective lawyering is to know where that line is and to push right up against it, but not to go over it.
	Boy, that's got to be a tight, tight rope to walk at times.
	At times it is very tight, yes.
	Somebody calling themselves Sushi Dog.
	Hello.
	Good evening, Art.
	Evening.
	And good evening, Debbie.
	Hi, Sushi Dog.
	Oh yeah, this is Sushi Dog from Sacramento, California.
	Debbie, I want to understand this Hey Kitty Kitty stuff a little bit better.
	Okay.
	And I don't mean the kibbles and bits stuff, but let's say, for example, Art and I are neighbors and we have a beef.
	And Art wants nothing more than me to be more reasonable with him in order to solve a problem.
	So Art goes to you and explains the situation.
	Now, do you go to your cat and have a chat with the cat?
	I mean, I want to understand where the cat comes in on your witchcraft or whatever it is that you do to help Art try to remedy a situation with, say, an ornery neighbor.
	If it's a problem with a neighbor, I don't think, I wouldn't need to go to outside source.
	I'd be working with, I would try to work with the both of you to iron out the problem.
	I would be using much more lawyer skills than I would be, oh, wiccan skills, quite honestly.
	Well, what I'm getting at, Debbie, is this.
	There's this black cat involved, correct?
	I'm sorry?
	There's a black cat.
	I don't think Jimmy's a black.
	Yes, Bast is represented as the black cat.
	Okay.
	Oh, so there's no real live black cat that you're talking about?
	The goddess that I work with is Bast, who is represented as a black cat.
	In my household, I have a little black cat named Sackmat.
	I have another little black and white cat named Max.
	My main man of the non-human persuasion is Butch.
	So there are real cats here, and they certainly are children of the Goddess.
	Let me try and help the caller.
	Do you actually pray to the cat, or is the cat just a symbol that you're praying to?
	I actually pray to a cat.
	Okay.
	When I was in law school and away from my husband and my family, I would invoke her almost nightly and put my head on her paws and she'd lick me to sleep.
	Okay.
	I think that's actually what the caller was asking.
	May not be the answer he wanted, but I think... Well, no, you're spot on.
	See, I'm still...
	Now, that situation she just described, Debbie just described, she was putting her head on a real-life cat.
	I'm having a problem with this real-life cat.
	I know she described her cats at home.
	Why?
	And this mystical cat, this goddess cat.
	Why are you having this problem?
	It's what she believes.
	Well, no.
	And actually, you know, if you and I had a problem, and I had to go to her about you, I'd have you hobbled.
	Okay, when she does her witchcraft, does she actually talk to a real live black cat?
	Yes, I think the answer is yes.
	Debbie?
	A real live, a goddess black cat, who I believe is a real manifestation, yes.
	I think he just couldn't believe your answer.
	Is what I think.
	Probably not.
	Right, okay.
	Yes, I believe in a big black kitty.
	There you go.
	Let's go to Seattle, Washington on the phone.
	Hi.
	Hey Art, it's an honor to talk to you and I think she's a good witch and I wanted to tell you one thing.
	Yes?
	I wanted to tell you that I shot a video of a kind of a spaceship and I took it down to Homeland Security.
	Okay, sir.
	See, we've got a witch on now, so... Oh, I know, but she sounds like a good... She is a good witch, but you're off on a different tangent.
	Oh, I'm happy to get through, and my pleasure.
	Okay, well, I'm happy you got through.
	Thank you.
	Seattle, no, Denver, you're up.
	Hey, Art.
	Hey, this is Matt from Denver and part of the tune-in chat.
	That's a big fan of yours.
	Yeah, how's that going on there?
	It's actually pretty good.
	A lot of the trolls we just kind of ignore.
	So now they quit bombarding us with nonsense.
	So it's been kind of nice.
	But now, since I've said that, we'll probably have about 30 more.
	So essentially I jinx myself just by answering that.
	But yeah, I heard Matthew, the Sunday School teacher, what a trip that guy is.
	Yes, I think he's related to our friend.
	I think he might be, and I thought it was funny that he always has his device up, but he's kind of a mouth breather on the mic, so it's almost like you want to tell him, Matthew, turn down your CPAP device.
	Yes.
	So, yeah, I'm having a good little trip about that.
	He's always a good guy.
	But no, I called in because, you know, I'd seen this, but has Debbie ever been on anything before any of this?
	I haven't really heard of her.
	No, I don't think so.
	I think in the broadcast world this is pretty much it for Debbie, but she might have been on something.
	Debbie?
	This is my maiden voyage as a witch, quite honestly.
	I have been on local radio programs talking about how to interact with the police on the streets.
	That's a big concern of mine.
	And people on the street.
	Yes, yes.
	We have far too many homeless in DC.
	Roughly half of them are veterans, and this is just, it's terrible.
	My husband is a veteran.
	I'm a very anti-war person, but there is a very special place in my heart for these veterans.
	Okay, Colin?
	Yeah, I mean, you look kind of familiar.
	I thought that you were that chick that Buffalo Bob had down, who was his first victim on Silence of the Lambs.
	But you just kind of look familiar.
	I just figured I'd ask.
	I thought I was like, well, that's got to be her.
	Doesn't she look either like a witch or a judge?
	Frederica Bimmel, actually.
	But yes, or a judge.
	I could see that, too.
	Is that your witch's uniform?
	Is that like a modified judge's robe?
	No, no.
	It's, uh, they're robes.
	Not judges' robes, but, uh, they were graduation, and it's got a good, it has a real good look to it, which is why I didn't have bad pictures taken with that.
	All right.
	Hold tight.
	We're going to take a break, and we'll be right back.
	What an interesting, interesting program.
	A real witch, Debbie Anderson.
	She really is, she is the real thing, folks.
	And every foot on the trail And every song that we sing
	Why do I...
	We will, we will rock you We will, we will rock you
	While midnight sweeps across America You've found an oasis for the mind
	To call Midnight in the Desert, please dial 1-952-CALL-ART.
	That's 1-952-225-5278.
	It's coming back, everybody!
	Ha ha, the NFL.
	Oh, thank the cat.
	No kidding.
	NFL games soon.
	Okay, my guest is Debbie Anderson, and she's being haunted by Linda.
	Or Linda's casting a spell or something.
	It's really weird.
	So, Debbie.
	Yes, sir.
	So will you be our, I don't know, resident witch?
	You've earned the title.
	I would be very honored to, Art.
	Good.
	Is it Midnight Fans you're going on?
	Midnight fans, it's, I'm sorry, Art Bell fans undercover of the night.
	It's Larkin Walken's group.
	Love you Larkin, thank you again.
	Alright, well there are a bunch of different groups out there, like there are different covens, and so I'm sure this is fine, but be careful.
	There is another one that I deal with quite frequently called Bell Gab.
	They too probably worship the devil.
	Or cats.
	And I'm not suggesting you worship the devil.
	Maybe cats.
	Anyway, let's go to Torch.
	Torch Wood, is that really your name?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	You can call me Torch.
	Okay, Torch.
	Hi, Tord.
	Hi, Deb.
	How you doing?
	Have you ever got anybody up on a technicality that actually went on to commit the same crime as in like murder or rape?
	And ethically, how would you feel about that?
	To the best of my knowledge, I never have.
	That actually is a fairly common question that comes up to criminal defense attorneys.
	Probably a fairly common problem.
	The way I answer it is this.
	If I got a person off, And he or she did something else to put them back in the criminal justice system.
	I would feel very sad that they had wasted that opportunity that I was able to give them.
	That hurt a lot.
	But I think what you're asking me is would I feel guilty over what they did afterwards?
	And no, I would not.
	No.
	No.
	No karma involved there?
	Well, no.
	She has a job.
	She has a job to defend somebody.
	And that, you've really got to understand, that's what an attorney does.
	If they don't do it, the bar will go after them.
	You present a zealous defense, no matter what.
	And if you don't, you're not doing your job.
	Right?
	Exactly.
	I'm not doing my job.
	And I pride myself on doing my job well.
	Even if you knew that person was guilty?
	Guilt or innocence does not matter.
	It does not enter into it.
	I know it's a tough concept for some people to digest, but that is the job of an attorney caller.
	That's all there is to it.
	I'm just saying, if you were to kill your wife or rape your daughter, I'm sure you'd feel different about it.
	Well, yes.
	But what are you trying to say?
	That it's not a good profession?
	Is that what you're saying?
	I guess.
	Yeah, I guess it is.
	And I'm sorry for that.
	And when you're sitting behind bars someday, you'll probably feel real different about it.
	Well, I don't plan on killing anybody or raping anybody, so I guess I'll be pretty safe there.
	You know what?
	Most people who kill don't plan on it.
	Generally, killing is mostly a crime of passion.
	Most people are sorry after they do it.
	A very wise man who ran for president several years ago on the Socialist Party ticket, David McReynolds, once said in a speech, everybody has one good murder in them.
	Yeah.
	And wouldn't you kill to defend your child?
	Of course.
	Or another loved one?
	Of course, we all would.
	Yeah.
	Well, there are certain people who wouldn't, because they're Quakers and they don't believe in violence, regardless of the circumstances.
	But most of us would kill to defend a loved one.
	So that's one set of circumstances.
	Another is it all too often happens that somebody is in the wrong place at the wrong time.
	There is a misidentification.
	There are lots of people who are in jail for something they didn't do.
	There you have it.
	You see it on TV all the time, on the news.
	People getting released after 30 years.
	You're right.
	How do you pay them back for that?
	Fort Lauderdale, I think.
	Hi.
	Yes.
	Hello, Eric.
	Hello.
	I am a Satanist.
	You're kind of broken up, caller.
	All broken up.
	No, not very well.
	We'll try again, but not very well.
	You're breaking up.
	Is it any better now, or no?
	A little.
	Try your question.
	Let's see if we can get it.
	Yeah, just a quick question.
	I practice the left hand path.
	I am a Satanist.
	You're a Satanist.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Try to call back, Satanist.
	It's just not good enough.
	I'm sorry.
	Washington, Georgia.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi.
	I just have a couple of questions to ask Debbie.
	Sure.
	As a high priestess, are you able to communicate with the dead?
	And also, if so, is there any safe way for me to do so?
	Let me go with number two first.
	If you're interested in communicating with dead people, find yourself someone who is already very good at it.
	Apprentice yourself out to them and learn how to do it properly.
	Can I communicate with the dead?
	In some ways, yes.
	It's not something that I have been particularly drawn to.
	I do a different kind of spell cast crafting.
	But certainly, I send those energies out there.
	If I want to manifest somebody, I can do so.
	I choose mostly not to disturb them.
	Is there a reason for that or is that just your personal?
	It's my preference for why I'm on this planet right now.
	I am perhaps less spiritually inclined than some people.
	There's a difference for why I'm on this planet right now.
	I am perhaps less spiritually inclined than some people.
	I'm much more interested in dealing with day-to-day problems in the world that I'm living in.
	Materially inclined.
	Yes.
	I have had periods of my life where I have turned inward much more than I do now.
	What if it was a situation where you were uncertain of the death, like how someone died,
	and you wanted to question them on that?
	I, why do you?
	Why would I be wanting to know how they died?
	Why would that be important?
	This is, I guess, I'm basing it off of my sister's death.
	I've gone on multiple sites trying to figure out.
	I actually spoke to her once through poetry.
	It didn't really give me what I needed out of it.
	Okay, so the answer is you're trying to reach your sister.
	Bless your heart, sweetheart.
	I am so very sorry that you've had such a painful loss.
	I would definitely try to find someone in the area.
	There are metaphysical stores everywhere and generally there is a person within a metaphysical store who knows someone who is working that way and will help you.
	But I certainly understand the need to.
	Okay, well then I have a question.
	How do you separate the wheat and the chaff?
	How do you find somebody who's real?
	You have to go in your instinct.
	Don't be taken in by the first person who comes down the pike.
	I understand that your need is great and that this is a pain that you want to put to rest.
	But use some discrimination, talk to several people.
	Something that you might try that might help you that would not involve reaching out is, I'm a cancer sign so I'm very involved with water, get yourself a little dark colored cup of water or a bowl, something that you find
	particularly appealing.
	Fill it with water and just kind of try to look into it and see what you find.
	Don't expect anything particularly, don't push for anything, just
	be very passive and very open to what comes about.
	And that might bring you some peace if you get some answers that way.
	But otherwise, I would certainly go and look for somebody through a metaphysical store.
	Does that help you?
	In some ways.
	I've had a lot of people tell me, like meditating, to ask her to come into my dreams and things like that, which hasn't worked so far.
	So I'll definitely try that and see if it helps.
	Thank you.
	Right.
	Thank you.
	So, it is possible to communicate with the dead.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Is it advisable?
	Oh, I think it's advisable, yes, especially in this young lady's case where she's got these questions that are clearly causing her a great deal of grief.
	Answers are always a good thing, even if the answer is that there was in fact some, you know, the circumstances were very bad, but at least she'll have answers.
	Alright, let me flip the question a little bit.
	Is it advisable to communicate with the dead using something like a Ouija board?
	You know, Art, I have never been attracted to Ouija boards.
	I know that some people find them very uncomfortable.
	I'm one of them.
	I think that, again, this is something, what are you personally attracted to?
	Well, with reference to the time that I tried it, I was attracted to the novelty of giving it a try.
	Now, the clear intent is to have somebody from beyond communicate with you.
	Yes.
	My experience was not good.
	That's all I'll say about it.
	It was not good.
	And it seems to me that it depends on the intent into which you enter into one of these attempts.
	If your intent is just playing around, trying to talk to somebody on the other side, I think that you can clearly attract something you don't want.
	I completely agree with you.
	Intent is everything.
	Okie doke.
	Then she may be okay.
	Quake Guy, whoever this would be, you're on the air.
	Ah, hello there, Art.
	Okay, back away from your microphone a little bit.
	You're too loud.
	Ah, sorry about that.
	Much better.
	Thank you.
	Alright, good evening, Art.
	Thank you very much so far for an excellent show, and good evening to you too, Debbie.
	I have two quick questions.
	Good evening, Quake Guy.
	Thank you very much.
	Two quick questions.
	I'm currently dating a woman who identifies as a witch, and I've asked her recently if she's been doing any magic, just jokingly, and she told me she wasn't able to because she didn't have her book of spells with her.
	It's currently up north, away from where we currently are.
	I was wondering if you also require your spellbook with you or on hand or within the vicinity in order to do spells.
	And another second quick question is when you were discussing earlier the ability to materialize things for oneself and to use witchcraft for personal gain, I've been told that that's sort of like a black Which magic?
	Do you expect some sort of repercussion or some sort of karma imbalance to come from doing that?
	And I will take my answer off the air.
	Thanks a lot, Art.
	Okay, well that was two answers of the spell book.
	The spell book, for me, it's all in my head.
	Ultimately, with witches, it becomes all in your head.
	You don't need to have your book there.
	The second question is personal gain.
	Can it ever be considered to be wrong if you're ill and have no money to use witchcraft?
	To get the medications that you need or to find a doctor who will help you.
	I don't think that's wrong.
	How about money?
	If you are poor and you need the money for something, I don't think that's wrong either.
	How about if you're the Donald and you just want more?
	Then that's greed and that is definitely wrong.
	I see.
	All right.
	Very, very, very, very interesting.
	Let's go to the phone and whoever's next looks like Pocatello.
	Hi.
	Pocatello, Idaho, you've got about three seconds.
	One, two, three.
	Buffalo, New York, it's your turn.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi, Debbie.
	Hi.
	Art, I just want to real quick tell you that I'm Marlene from Buffalo and I'm the one that called you the first week you were on the air and I told you to surround yourself with white light.
	I tried it.
	So I just wanted to say that this is who I am.
	And still I have trouble with Skype.
	With what?
	Skype.
	I have trouble.
	Never mind.
	I tried the white light.
	Okay.
	It was a joke.
	It fell flat.
	I'm sorry.
	I don't think I got that one.
	Debbie, I have a question for you.
	You had brought up exactly what I was calling about.
	Is there something that I can do as far as lighting up a white candle?
	I feel good about you.
	I didn't like Blanche when she was on the show.
	So I feel good and I feel evil and I feel good with you Debbie.
	Thank you.
	And that's why I'm calling to ask because I need to keep my home and in so doing I had
	experienced a loss in the family so I took care of her and it cost me some income because
	I had to stay home.
	So it hurt me in the long run and I'm on a fixed income.
	Is there something that I can do to help me generate a little bit extra cash flow to make my life a little easier and keep my home?
	I'm a great believer in candle magic.
	Marlene, I would suggest that you get a candle and wrap a green ribbon around it.
	Green is kind of the universal symbol for money.
	And work with, form your intent very carefully.
	I need so much for this purpose.
	And burn that candle for 15, 20 minutes, half an hour every day at a time where you can be very quiet and be by yourself and focus all your intent and energies on that particular goal that you have in mind.
	My show is ending.
	It's ending.
	You know what?
	And also, I have a black cat.
	Her name is Wanda the Witch.
	Rescue from the SPCA.
	So your princess will be happy I took care of a cat.
	You do art because you love animals.
	All right.
	Bless your heart, hon.
	Thanks.
	I've got to go.
	The show is ending.
	Now, listen.
	So, Debbie, you're going to be back on the show because you're so good.
	Now, give out your email address.
	No, first tell us where are you going to be after the show for after show people if they want to Ask questions?
	I will be right here at my... I can certainly be available by email.
	No, the place.
	The place.
	You're going to an after show.
	Oh, the place.
	Washington, D.C.
	No, no, no, no.
	You're going on an after show show, right?
	Oh, the after show show.
	Yes.
	Where is that?
	I was asking you.
	Oh!
	I'm sorry, Art.
	I absolutely, completely was confused by what you were asking.
	Okay.
	I am going to be going to the Art Bell fan page on Facebook.
	All right.
	But you forgot the name of it again.
	Larkin has just changed it and bear with me.
	It is Art Bell Fans Undercover of the Night.
	I will be there.
	Boy, he has changed it again.
	That's a fact.
	All right.
	And your email address one more time, please.
	D-C-A-N-D-E-0-1 at gmail.com.
	All right.
	Debbie, the attorney.
	Debbie, the witch.
	Debbie, the wise lady.
	Thank you for being here.
	It has been a fantastic program.
	Art, it has been such a pleasure.
	Thank you so much.
	Good night.
	All the good things.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	Now, listen, tomorrow night, I'm going to have... I'm going to have a lady on who has been with Bigfoot in East Texas for many, many years.
	It's going to be a show you're never going to forget.
	Again, that's tomorrow night.
	It's East Texas.
	That vocation may resonate with you.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

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