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Aug. 5, 2015 - Art Bell

02:37:31

Art Bell MITD - Jon The Morgile Josh Grindlay Flat Earth Debate

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43:15

leo ashcraft

11:18

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon across the entire world, all its time zones.
		Welcome to Midnight in the Desert.
		I'm Mark Bell, and this is going to be quite a program tonight.
		Just two rules for the program, no bad language, and only one call per show that you're able to get through.
		I would like to welcome KAWL program tonight.
		Just two rules for the program, no bad language, and only one call per show if you're able to get through.
		I would like to welcome KAWL Radio, 1370 a.m. in York, Nebraska.
		Welcome aboard, you guys.
		Any of you, get hold of your local station.
		And I've got a little thing up on my Facebook page now telling them or on artbell.com how they can get hold of us to carry the program.
		Let's see.
		I do have a normal list of people to thank.
		Telos, of course, for the great sound.
		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Keith Rowland, my webmaster.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My current producer, Heather Wade.
		And I do want to thank Dr. J. He's Dr. J Radio Live.
		And he's on Tuesday and Thursday between 7 and 9 p.m. or triple w drjradiolive.com.
		My tickle is non just before me.
		Now let me see.
		The Bellgab website, people love our bell, M-I-D, that's Midnight in Desert, I guess, chat site.
		StreamGuys, LV.net, and Peter Aberhart, our sales guy up in Alaska.
		Now, do I have everything done that I was supposed to do?
		I think so.
		Very quickly then, on artbell.com, there was a ghost photograph yesterday or the day before.
		If no, it was the day before.
		And today, the people at anomalous.com said they didn't like it.
		They thought it was fake.
		And they put one up of their own that they think is real.
unidentified		So I've got that one up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take a look.
		See what you think of their picture, the one they think is real.
		A community center in Norwich is reported to be haunted, as are most buildings in England.
		But this time, says anomalous.com, looks as if the Norfolk paranormal has managed to snap photographic evidence of one of the ghostly residents.
		There are several reasons we think the photo is the real deal, including the fact that the paranormal activity was witnessed by more than one person in an area the photo was taken.
		Most notably, the location is remaining mostly a secret.
		I don't know how that helps it, with the owners swearing the investigators to secrecy.
		Well, maybe.
		This particular ghost isn't being used to drum up publicity.
		Okay, well, I'll go along with that.
		That unusual fact alone is almost impressive as the photo itself.
		See if you can pick out the ghost.
		We've got it at artbell.com right now.
		So, all right, here we go.
		What we're going to talk about tonight is whether or not the earth is flat.
		Here comes somebody we're going to call John, and John prefers to remain anonymous.
		He believes the earth is flat.
		He has several business clients who might not be ready to have a ball earth skeptic as a strategic consultant.
		John is in no way ashamed to be a ball earth skeptic.
		However, being a ball earth skeptic does not pay the bills, says he.
		His business clients do, and he hopes the listeners can accept this.
		I can.
		Other people in the world would only have a glimpse of who John is based on his videos, posts, and interviews.
		He says, my statements speak for themselves.
		We'll see about that.
		And you get a full view of my take on the flat earth slash infinite plane models on my YouTube channel, The Morgile.
		That's The Morgile.
		M-O-R-G-I-L-E.
		So he is to be met by somebody operating way, I think, below his pay grade, but we're very honored to have him here tonight.
		He is a professor, actually.
		All right.
		Dr. Josh Grinley.
		Now, listen to a little bit of this if you don't think he's going to be operating below pay grade.
		Research interests.
		Compact objects and binaries in globular clusters and the origin and evolution of compact X-ray binaries.
		Good lord.
		Accretion into white dwarfs, neutron stars, and black holes.
		Development of a balloon-borne hard X-ray imaging telescope and future space missions for hard X-ray observations of X-ray binaries and quasars.
		Good lord.
		He's published over 500 papers.
		He definitely thinks the Earth is round, by the way.
		Well, or oval, you know, but not flat.
		National Service, numerous advisory committees for NASA, NRC, and NSF, chair of Division of High Energy Astrophysics.
		Holy moly, American Astronomical Society, Division of Astrophysics, American Physical Society, honors, a fellow, American Peace Sloan Foundation, fellow American Physical Society, Fellow, American Association for Advancement of Science, Fellow, Guggenheim Foundation, and so forth.
		So he's a big heavyweight.
		So I want to welcome both of these gentlemen and hope they're there.
		John, are you here?
unidentified		I am here.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Yeah, I hear you.
		And Dr. Grinley?
unidentified		I'm here, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
		Okay.
		I hear a little bit of hum or something.
		So somebody is turning something off or changing something.
		Don't do that.
		Leave it on.
		All right.
		So, John, look, you gave us so many points that you're going to have to work with me, John, and we're going to have to sort of take these one at a time.
		I've got them boiled down a little bit.
		So can we do that?
		Take them one at a time?
		Why you think the earth is flat?
		Sure.
unidentified		Yeah, if that's the way that you want to do it, we can do it however you want to.
		And first, I want to say I'm a big fan, longtime listener.
		Love your stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		All right.
		So let us do that then, in the interest of time, because the doctor can only be with us.
		He's on the East Coast.
		We've got him at best a couple of hours.
		So if you both will hold on, what we'll do is we'll get our break out of the way, and then we'll come back and we'll dive directly into this sort of point by point, if that'd be all right, John.
		That's kind of the way I want to do it, if you're in agreement.
unidentified		Sure.
		Okay, good.
		Hold it right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This should be interesting.
		And again, Dr. Grinley, I really thank you for being here way below your pay grade to address this, in my opinion.
		But you may get a pretty good argument.
		This is Midnight.
unidentified		Midnight.
		The heart of the city's beat is beating.
		And from the neon turns dark to me, put your heart to make it sleeping.
		The End
		The End The clock strikes 12, and Midnight in the Desert is pounding packets your way on the Dark Matter Digital Network.
		To call the show, please direct your finger digits to dial 1-952-225-5278.
		That's 1-952.
		Call Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here we go.
		Is the Earth Flat?
		That's what it's all about.
		John is here, along with Dr. Josh Grindley.
		Again, I maintain operating way below his pay grade, but that's okay.
		We'll proceed with this and kind of go point by point.
		So, John, if you're there, I'm going to skip the first two and go directly to we have a gazillion pictures of Earth from space.
		Or we should have, I guess.
		Why don't we have a gazillion pictures of Earth from space?
		Instead, we have just one.
		And you add its brand new one that's obviously fake.
		And I guess, what are you saying, John?
		That the picture of Earth from space looks flat?
unidentified		No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
		Okay.
		And I think at first, if we skip the first two points, that's kind of doing injustice to the argument.
		But if we can loop back to those or whatever, I think they are important points to make.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		Real quick then.
		When was the last time you skeptically scrutinized the globe model?
		Is that your first one?
		Yep.
		I don't know.
		I've got a globe at home.
		I scrutinize it all the time because I've traveled around it about three times.
		So I don't know.
		I'm pretty familiar.
		How about you, Doctor?
unidentified		Well, I don't think there's much doubt that the globe is spherical.
		We've got lots of pictures of it.
		We've all traveled around it.
		I've been around it many times.
		I have friends who've been in orbit.
		I haven't, but I would love to do that sometime.
		We can go around it in 90 minutes.
		So I think this whole debate is quite amusing, but I'm happy to be part of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, a response?
unidentified		Absolutely.
		And I think there may be some clarification needed on the term scrutinized or skeptically reviewed the globe model, because there are a lot of things that seem to make the Earth seem like a globe.
		But at the same time, isn't it possible that we were all sort of taught all of these quote-unquote truths and known facts about the globe when we were just very small children?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, John, you're talking to two people, myself and the doctor, who have been around the world several times.
		You know, it's kind of like we have a...
		And at 67,000, 68,000 feet, I promise you, John, taint flat.
unidentified		Well, John, there was a nice view of the curved horizon of the Earth about a year ago when that fellow jumped out of a balloon 130,000 feet above New Mexico.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Beautiful pictures.
		With the fisheye lens, right.
		No, no, it wasn't a fisheye lens.
		I didn't know that.
		No, Mexico.
		It was a GoPro fisheye lens, which makes all straight lines appear curved.
		Well, I don't know if you're going to be able to do that.
		If you're in the Concorde, I'm sorry to interrupt, but if you're in the Concorde and you see the totally flat horizon, which is an equidistant circle all around you, as altitude is gained, the horizon level never drops.
		So if we did live on a globe, the higher and higher you went in altitude, and the further and further your field of vision goes, you know, your angle of attack on the horizon is going to get wider and wider as altitude is gained.
		But if we did live on a sphere, then it should drop lower and lower the further away you can look.
		And actually, that's measurable.
		And we can measure that.
		John, that's exactly what was observed by the Apollo astronauts in 1969 as they left Earth.
		They saw the globe get smaller and smaller, drop farther and farther away below them.
		How do you respond to that, John?
		The Apollo astronauts, I'm sorry to say, and you know, I was raised.
		Oh, that's right.
		You think it's all in a movie lot somewhere?
		Is that real?
		It wasn't real.
		Is that it, John?
		What I'm telling you is the Apollo missions were demonstrably false.
		Oh, I see.
		Okay.
		All of the rocks were clearly manufactured in some.
		I mean, even by standard science, okay, so you have these radiation barriers about, what, 1,000 or 3,000 miles above the surface called the Van Allen radiation belts.
		Yes, I'm very familiar with those, John.
		Okay.
		Yeah, they had just been discovered, and they were still being sort of scrutinized and debated when the Apollo missions were launched.
		And so, you know, you could argue that it's irresponsible of NASA that they didn't include any sort of radiation shielding because Van Allen did warn them about the radiation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we're off on a tangent here a little bit.
unidentified		We are.
		Yeah, but I think John is denying the physical evidence.
		That's the trouble with this theory.
		It doesn't conform to fact.
		Afterwards, NASA, then it becomes all gimmickry and fakery.
		And so there was no Apollo.
		It was all done in a movie lot.
		John, that scam has been proposed long ago, but it's a very rare group of people that still subscribe to it.
		I'm surprised that you do.
		NASA is a pack of liars that was founded by Freemasonry.
		Oh, my goodness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Art, I don't know.
		I don't think this debate is going to be very useful when we have such biased views and such lack of comprehension of simple facts and figures.
		Maybe.
		Are you going to admit to the fact that Columbus was aware the Earth was round?
		He watched masts of ships appear before the ships appeared.
		That's what happens on a spherical globe, John.
		Is that a fallacy?
		That is a fallacy we have experts.
		No, it's not.
		It's an observed fact.
		Go out on a boat and see it for yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, they're going to see the mast first, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course they are.
unidentified		The old wives' tale is that when a ship travels away from you, as it goes beyond the horizon, you're supposed to be able to see the bottom sort of travel away from you last.
		But if you actually look at a ship that travels beyond the horizon with a telescope, you'll see that it is actually just perfectly perpendicular to the horizon.
		It just sort of seems to go behind the horizon because that's how the laws of perspective work.
		No, no, you see the mast just looked at the pictures or the videos, Doctor?
		I've seen this myself.
		It's obvious.
		Have you been out at sea on a boat?
		Flat, nice, calm sea with no waves?
		I have.
		I have indeed.
		And, you know, when I've been out many times, and when I was young, I remember seeing, wow, you can see the curve of the earth out here on the ocean, but what you're seeing is an equidistant circle around you, because that's how perspective works.
		That's how the work.
		John, I'm afraid you don't understand geometry.
		This is very simple spherical geometry, plane geometry.
		Okay.
		Understood by the Greeks 2,000 years ago.
		We can get into spherical geometry if you want to do that.
		No, I don't want to.
		I don't have you too.
		But I think let's hear some more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we've got so many points here.
		Let's do them one at a time.
		All right.
		For example, how can we see vertical, perpendicular buildings from over 50 miles away?
		They ought to be a quarter mile below the horizon.
unidentified		That's correct.
unidentified		And we don't see the bottom of those buildings 50 miles away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		We don't see the bottom of the buildings, Doctor, but that's because of the laws of perspective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
unidentified		Perspective has nothing to do with it.
		Doctor, with all due respect, perspective has everything to do with it.
		The curvature of the Earth, you can measure it simply by its eight inches times the mile squared.
		And that's how much drop should occur every mile away from the observer's eye.
		So it's eight inches per mile squared.
		So if it's one mile, it's simply an eight inch drop.
		And if it's two miles, the mile squared.
		So it's four times eight inches, which is a 32-inch drop.
		At three miles, it's nine times eight.
		That's 72-inch drop.
		And when you get out to 50 miles, those buildings should be based a full quarter mile below the horizon, and they should be angled away from your perspective.
		But instead, we can see them perpendicular to the horizon, perfectly vertical, perfectly visible from well over 50 miles away.
		John, that's because we have topography on the surface of the globe.
		We're not living on a ball bearing, in case you haven't noticed.
		So you're saying that the wind...
		You're seeing the topography of the land.
		With all due respect, Doctor, I think it's high time that you apply some rational skepticism to that.
		No, no, no, no, I'm perfectly rational.
		That's what science is all about.
		If you go back to the ocean and the mast disappearing last, you have precisely what we're talking about.
		It has nothing to do with perspective.
		Actually, if you look at the videos, there's video evidence.
		There's plenty of it.
		You're wrong.
		That's a wives' tale.
		That's not what happened.
		Does everything come down to perspective?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is every argument going to come down to perspective?
unidentified		Yeah.
		Well, I'd like to hear perspective defined here.
		This is a very interesting use of the word perspective, which has nothing to do with historical problems.
		Exactly.
		That's exactly right.
		Perspective works on a flat plane.
		The further away from you objects travel, the smaller and smaller they appear to get.
		Agreed?
		That's for a fixed size.
		Yes, of course.
		That's nothing more than the angular size that you're talking about.
		So, what happens to that object when it gets beyond the vanishing point?
		On a flat plane?
		There's no vanishing point.
		You have to understand some physics here, John.
		It doesn't just vanish.
		Objects will get smaller and smaller, as you just said.
		They'll become very, very small, but then you don't resolve them any longer because something called diffraction prevents you from resolving them.
		Doctor, with all due respect.
		With all due respect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, with all due respect, we've got only so much time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's another point.
unidentified		I think we're getting off the subject here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can a westbound flight, John says, from New York to Los Angeles have identical duration on a globe spinning about 1,000 miles per hour east with its return flight?
unidentified		John, everybody on the globe is spinning together, including the airplane that's flying above the globe.
		So there's the answer to your question.
		So we're not...
		So we're all...
		Isn't that remarkable?
		Why are we being thrown off is probably what you're wondering.
		Now, Doctor, let me ask you a question.
		What about when the jet engines propel the plane westward?
		Do you agree that the plane should be traveling in the opposite direction as the spin of the Earth?
		Yes, the spin of the Earth is the whole frame of reference.
		It's the whole frame of reference.
		But, Doctor, objects moving in opposite directions have a much higher relative difference in speed than objects moving in the same direction.
		So an eastbound flight should be a much longer flight than a westbound flight, shouldn't it, Doctor, since the world is supposedly spinning towards the east?
		That's correct.
		But there is something that you may have noticed that's called wind and weather, which is what makes the difference between eastbound and westbound flights.
		It's the circulation of the atmosphere that the plane is flying through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jet spinning.
unidentified		The plane is flying over the Earth as a fixed frame of reference, which is indeed rotating, but so is the plane.
		So there's no relative motion relative to the spin of the Earth.
		There's no relative motion relative to the spin of the Earth.
		So you're arguing that objects traveling in opposite directions don't have a higher relative difference in speed than objects.
		John, look, you're getting mixed up here.
		When the plane takes off from New York, it is on a spinning platform, and whether it's going east or west, it always has that angular velocity that it had when it left the Earth.
		Always.
		Always.
		And that has nothing to do with its velocity relative to the ground.
		The laws of motion state that an object in motion will tend to maintain its velocity until enacted upon by some other force.
		And with all due respect, Doctor, don't you consider several jet engines attached to a plane some other force?
		That's what's propelling the plane over the earth, the surface of the earth.
		That's the frame of reference that we've just defined.
		The problem is not the frame of reference.
		Spinning has nothing to do with the motion of the plane from negative.
		The problem is that you are incapable of even theorizing that our world is not fully understand what our globe is doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, John, let him finish.
unidentified		Okay, I'm sorry.
		No, I've just repeated the same point several times, but I don't think John is quite understanding that there is a frame of reference that the plane has taken off from.
		And when it lands in wherever it's going, it's still in that same frame of reference.
		We could expand this, if you like, John.
		It's not just that the Earth is spinning.
		We're moving around the Sun at an enormous velocity, 30 kilometers per second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All of us.
unidentified		It makes the spin of the Earth look trivial.
		But again, that has nothing to do with, you know, the motion of the plane in flight from, you know.
		Now, I think that we sort of.
		And that's not what's going on here.
		The plane has taken off from a point on the solid Earth.
		You would like it to be flat, but of course it's demonstrably round.
		But that has nothing to do with your misconception about relative velocities.
		No, it has nothing to do with relative velocities, sir.
		But that's what you're trying to say.
		You're saying if I'm flying east, I'm flying faster than I'm flying.
		It has to do...
		That's what we mean by relative velocities, but that's where you're wrong, John.
		No, that's where you're wrong, sir.
		Well, John, this is getting to be slightly ridiculous.
		It is.
		You're right, because, see, I grew up on planet Earth, and I'm fully aware of the globe model and all of the reasoning behind it.
		But, see, the difficult thing is to have even a very intelligent person such as yourself even consider for just a scientific theory, you know, just for a little bit of a mind experiment, to even sit down for a minute and theorize, you know, maybe the world is flat and stationary.
		And I think flat Earth is a bad word for it because it implies that infinite space is somehow true.
		That's not the model whatsoever.
		We're not, you know, a disk floating around in space, if that's what most people want to think.
		The model that I subscribe to is an infinite plane model, where basically the sun has carved out a puddle while traveling around the magnetic center, which is fixed on our North Pole.
		And what you know as the Antarctic is actually the boundaries, the outer edge of the dartboard, essentially.
		Well, okay, John.
		If we don't want to talk about relative motion, because I think we're not getting very far in that, because you haven't understood what I've been saying, let's talk about your model for the icon.
		Exactly.
		I've heard the argument that you've got.
		Hold on.
		No, I would love to hear more about your model for the sun.
		That's very interesting.
		So the sun is this magical thing that is circling around the earth.
		What powers this thing?
		It's not obviously something that we normally think of as the sun and the star.
		That's a good question, but it's obviously.
		Is this all some mysterious source of energy that can circle around the plane, the infinite plane that we're living on?
		It's no more mysterious than gravity, but I believe it's some type of magnetic anomaly.
		There are lots of different theories, but I think a lot more study and scrutiny needs to go into it because, believe it or not, it has been irrefutably proved that our world is indeed flat and stationary.
		That's remarkable because it's contradicting all the evidence we've just been talking about.
		But the sun makes a very interesting way of testing your model because this magnetic anomaly, as you call it, must be some very peculiar source of energy that we've never even considered before.
		Is that what you would subscribe to?
		Well, there's a lot of points of light you see in the sky that we call stars.
		Are those just anything like the sun, or are those other magnetic anomalies or whatever this theory of yours is?
		That's a good question.
		And until we fly up there and see, I don't think anybody really knows.
		Sure, we can look at the light and we can theorize that the sun is 93 million miles away.
		But really, the same mathematics that's used to prove the sun is 93 million miles away can actually be used to prove that the sun's about 3,000 miles away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my goodness, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, you know, that's a great place to break.
unidentified		No, we got to break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We got to break.
		We have to break here.
		Everybody, hold it.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		All right, and it's coming on.
		We gotta get right back to where we started going.
		Love is good.
		Love can be strong.
		We gotta get right back to where we started going.
		Oh, my.
		Do you remember that day when you first came my way?
		I said no one could take your place for Dark Matter News.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		I'm Leo Ashcraft.
		Scientists are working on what might be considered the option of last resort for global warming.
		Researcher Sudhanshu Jain said it's an insurance policy.
		It's called the Marine Cloud Brightening Project, and it's designed to fight global warming by making clouds over the ocean thicker and brighter so they reflect more sunlight and cool the planet.
		The Sunnyvale team has reached a milestone with a high-pressure nozzle that uses salt water and looks like a normal water spray.
		But it took scientists a year to come up with the exact rate, flow, and pressure, so that the water droplets come out to the perfect size.
		Robert Wood, one of the top atmospheric scientists in the world, says we owe it to the future generations to study it now.
unidentified		Now, I don't think this should be a solution, but I think it's morally, for me, it's appropriate to at least do the research to find out more about it.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		The salt particles coming out of this nozzle are so small that in order to see them with the naked eye, you have to turn off the lights and use a laser.
		Once the nozzle is fine-tuned, the plan is to use a barge to shoot the salt particles into the sky and see what happens.
		The researchers say you can already see the concept at work.
		Satellite images show the ship tracks from vessels crisscrossing the ocean, spewing exhaust that turns into clouds and lasts up to a week.
		The project needs several more years and millions of dollars in funding before its widespread use.
		NASA has captured a beautiful, rare view of the moon passing in front of the sunlit face of Earth.
		The stunning animation, taken one million miles from Earth, shows the fully illuminated far side of the moon that is never visible from our planet.
		That's because our position is tidally locked, which means that we always see the same face pointing towards Earth, although both sides receive equal amounts of light.
		The animation shows images of the far side of the moon, illuminated by the sun.
		Also, it crosses between the Discover spacecraft's Earth Polychromatic Imaging Center camera, otherwise known as EPIC, and telescope, as well as the Earth one million miles away.
		The animation was captured by Earth Polychromatic Imaging Camera aboard the Deep Space Climate Observatory.
		EPIC has a constant view of the fully illuminated Earth as it rotates, providing scientific observations of ozone, vegetation, cloud height, and aerosols in the atmosphere.
		Once EPIC begins regular observations next month, the camera will provide a series of Earth images, allowing study of daily variations over the entire globe.
		There's a picture floating around social media.
		It states that at 12.30 on August 27th, you will see two moons in the sky, but only one will be the moon.
		The other will be Mars.
		It continues by saying it won't happen again until 2287, adding that no one alive today has ever witnessed this happening.
		The email and photo are perpetuating a hoax that rears its crazy head every summer since 2003, 12 years running.
		That's a long time for a hoax to run in our world of information.
		Mars can never appear as large as a full moon as seen from Earth.
		Mars isn't even visible in July 2015, and although it may come into view in the east before dawn by August 27, 2015, it won't be anywhere near the July or August full moon.
		What's more, Mars is nowhere near its brightest or closest in July or August of 2015, or at any time this year.
		This year so far, Mars has been relatively inconspicuous in our sky.
		It's on the far side of the sun from Earth.
		That'll continue to be the case throughout the rest of the year.
		So how did this rumor of Mars as big and bright as the moon get started?
		It started with an actual event in 2003.
		On August 27th of that year, Earth and Mars came slightly closer than they'd been in 60,000 years.
		Our two worlds, center to center, were less than 35 million miles apart, just over three light minutes apart.
		The last people to come so close to Mars were Neanderthals.
		So was Mars as big and bright as the moon even at its closest in 2003?
		Never, but the legend continues.
		I'm Leo Ashcraft for Dark Matter News.
unidentified		Dark Matter News
		Dark Matter News While midnight sweeps across America, you've found an oasis for the mind.
		To call midnight in the desert, please dial 1-952-Call Arts.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or an Oasis for the Mind, or you're pulling your hair out.
		John is here.
		He is not using his real name for business maintenance purposes.
		And he's debating Dr. Grinley, a very bright, very bright guy that we've got to have back on a full show.
		And I think for many people, John probably just blew his case right clear off the flat earth with the comment that the sun, for your model to be true, has to be, did you say, 3,000 miles away, John?
unidentified		Yeah, that's correct.
		That's about 3,000 miles away.
		That's right.
		And we can prove this using Euclidean geometry.
		It's a fairly standard experiment where essentially you measure the angles of the shadow cast by the sun at high noon at multiple points with miles in between each point on the same meridian.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, I was going to mention that our astronauts went to the moon, which is 250,000 miles away, but I'm sure you're going to come back with, no, they didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was fake.
unidentified		Right?
		No, nobody's.
		The astronauts never went to the moon.
		That was all a film.
		The Apollo missions were films designed to trick the generation, you guys' generation, into believing in a lie.
		Well, John, that's really disappointing to hear you say that.
		I know others have said that, but I'm surprised that a guy of your age, I don't know how old you are, but that you would subscribe to this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am too, Doctor.
unidentified		It's not that real live hardware.
		It's just all an elaborate fake, I guess, huh?
		It's not that elaborate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, doctor, let me ask, John, let me ask the doctor a question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, John is a bright guy.
unidentified		He sure is.
		Yeah, but that's why I'm really surprised that you can just get so far down the wrong track, John, in thinking about simple geometric concepts.
		Let's go back to the sun, because I think this is fascinating, what you're suggesting.
		If the sun were 3,000 miles away, have you worked out the power that the sun would have to have, this magnetic anomaly?
		What produces light and something that is only 3,000 miles away to illuminate the whole Earth and produce our climate?
		I assume you're not questioning that the distance from New York to LA is 3,000 miles.
		So you've got the sun about as far away from you, wherever you are right now.
		I don't know where you are.
		It doesn't matter.
		As New York and L.A. are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Surely you can't believe that, John.
unidentified		Do you use this amazing?
		It's actually, I mean, it's mathematically proved.
		I mean, if you would have let me finish the standard experiment that's done by colleges all over the world, the default answer will always be 3,000 miles away to the sun using that Euclidean geometry.
		Only by adding a layer of complexity into the equation and assuming that we live on a sphere with a circumference of 25,000 miles, then do you get the nonsensical answer of 93 million miles away?
		John, let's pursue the 3,000 miles because this is really interesting.
		If it were 3,000 miles, it has to be above us to cast light down onto us.
		How do I get daylight in Chicago and San Francisco and New York all at the same time?
		If the sun were only 3,000 miles up, there would be a much larger diurnal effect.
		That's a good question.
		That's more than three time zones away.
		So it doesn't work, John.
		Yeah, it's a good question.
		And the reason is, so you're still thinking of the Earth as a globe.
		No, no, no.
		I'm letting it be flattened out.
		It doesn't even work when it's flat.
		No, no.
		Well, then you're, but you're misunderstanding, though.
		You've got to understand, the North Pole is in the center of the dartboard.
		Okay?
		And then the next ring out on the dartboard is the Northern Hemisphere.
		And then the next ring out on the dartboard is the Southern Hemisphere.
		Now, first of all, and this is admitted, all of the maps that we have are all wrong.
		You can fit Canada twice in the length of Russia, so all of the relative sizes are wrong on the maps anyways.
		Is that what you're saying?
		No, well, the maps still work because, like, okay, you can walk around.
		Okay.
		No, no, no.
		Well, you're twisting my words.
		The reason that the maps are inaccurate is because they're assuming that the Earth is a globe when taking the measurements and measuring the relative differences in sizes of the continents.
		But you have to study the model.
		I mean, I wish you would at least study the flat Earth model before assuming that it's the globe.
		I think it would be fascinating to study because I've already pointed out to you here, and I'm not sure you've been following what I'm saying, that what your model is suggesting is already self-contradictory.
		We can't have the same three-hour time difference between New York and L.A. if my light bulb, the sun, is only 3,000 miles above them on a flat plane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		That doesn't work, John.
		Well, no, that's how it works.
		And you have to understand, when the light from the sun comes through the atmosphere, it does sort of have like a shotgun effect.
		So essentially, roughly half of the Earth is lit at any time by the sun.
		And the further it gets away from your perspective And it goes behind the horizon, it goes a lot further to get behind the horizon because it's on a much higher plane.
		Why is there a horizon?
		The sun is 3,000 miles up, but it's a flat plane.
		So I can be 10,000 miles away in my flat plane.
		You haven't told me how big the plane is, but I could be 10,000 miles away, and the sun is not behind any horizon.
		Well, if you go and study weather balloon footage, I don't know if you've ever looked at a little.
		I launched them to 40 miles up.
		Yeah, every time you see the sun in those in that, every time you see the sun in the weather balloon footage, it'll just be a few degrees above the horizon.
		It's not true, John.
		Sun can be straight overhead.
		I can show you pictures from our own balloon-borne telescopes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he actually launches, he actually launches balloons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So listen to that.
unidentified		But it's not 90 miles.
		Well, I don't launch them.
		NASA launches them.
		But of course, I think John thinks that this is all a fake or contrived operation.
		We put balloons 40 miles above the Earth, John, with telescopes on them.
		We do real astronomy, astrophysics.
		And so all the things you're talking about are simply not the case.
		I haven't been up in the balloon myself, but I've had my experiments and telescopes and detectors and images, just like the guy that jumped out of the balloon with that.
		You're accusing him with a fisheye lens to somehow made it all a fake shot.
		If the horizon appears as a curve from that distance without a fisheye lens, again, it's because it's an equidistant circle around you.
		Well, John, you know, these were regular cameras that this guy used, and they weren't fisheye lenses.
		He wasn't trying to take the picture of the whole globe, so there was no distortion in those cameras.
		Granted, and the reason that it looks like or appears as a curve is because the horizon will always be an equidistant circle around you at that altitude.
		Well, that's, I guess, your model, but we have all this contradictory direct measurement data.
		We can measure distances.
		You know, we don't have to imagine what they are on some map.
		We can measure distances precisely.
		Radar does that, as you certainly know.
		So we know what shapes and distances of things are.
		So there's no ambiguity.
		There's no terrorists.
		There's not fakeness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You certainly couldn't fake it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, the science about the sun is good, hard, settled science.
unidentified		No, all of this is hard, settled science art, including going to the moon.
unidentified		We have enormous amounts of data.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't want to get stuck there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He'll take us somewhere we don't want to go.
unidentified		I mean, anybody who believes we went to the moon believes in a TV series that was false.
		We're going to have to agree to disagree on that.
		So, John, tell me about this wonderful, exciting news of NASA's mission to Pluto a few weeks back.
		Is that all just a big sideshow as well?
		Why not?
		How much money are they going to get to make that movie?
		So who's making money on these movies, John?
		I mean, this is amazing.
		I don't know.
		Are you?
		I don't know.
		No, certainly not me.
		And certainly not NASA.
		NASA is not making money in anything.
		It's doing pure science.
		This is what gets in the textbooks.
		This is what you should be doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Scratching for a budget.
unidentified		John, this is what you should have taken back.
		I don't know.
		All of NASA's stuff is photoshopped images.
		Oh, my goodness, John.
		They might have some stuff from Hubble that's pictures of the stars.
		Let's do Hubble for a second.
		I want to hear about Hubble.
		So we've got this beautiful telescope up there, except it's not above a globe.
		It's above this flat plane.
		How is it getting those gorgeous pictures?
		Things that we couldn't even imagine.
		Are those all photoshopped as well?
		And you know, it's amazing that science, and you can prove, I can prove to you that the Earth has no curvature, and I can prove to you that you can look there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Smith Arg, you haven't done 12 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, you're not responding.
unidentified		Pretty pictures, not science.
unidentified		So, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not responding.
unidentified		The Hubble stuff is just fluffy, pretty pictures and no science.
		Is that it?
		They are definitely pretty pictures.
		They are, but I mean, do they have any reality or is this just, again, well, a guy named Matt Boylan was actually a subcontractor for NASA.
		He did a lot of realistic art of like, you know, like alien, hypothetical alien worlds with predefined, you know, lighting scenarios with mock celestial events.
		And so he was one of the people that actually broke the story that NASA was basically faking just about everything.
		Oh, my goodness, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So are you suggesting the Humble?
unidentified		Are you saying the Humble pictures of the universe?
		And you're saying, and this space artist, I like space art, by the way.
		I'm a science fiction fan.
		But you're saying that we're not.
		This is so much better than fiction, John.
		This is the real thing out there.
		These gorgeous images of galaxies a gazillion light years away.
		And that trumps the measurable fact that the Earth is flat and stationary, the pretty pictures.
		Well, it doesn't trump anything, John.
		This is reality.
		This is the world we live in.
		It is the world that the Greeks understood 2,000 years ago.
		Well, they theorized it 2,000 years ago.
		No, no, no, no, John, they didn't.
		Do you know the experiment the Greeks did in a well between Cyrene in northern Egypt and what we would now call Cairo?
		They measured the diameter of the Earth and proved it was round by simultaneously, amazing they could do this, measuring the depth of a sunbeam into a well on two different points on a meridian.
		So just think about it.
		That's why we can go 40 miles into the air with a weather balloon and there's no curvature of the horizon.
		John, the Greeks proved there was curvature and they measured the diameter of the Earth.
		We can see 400 BC.
		You're failing to see what's right in front of you because you cannot imagine our world is a glimpse.
		No, I can imagine what you're talking about.
		I just had trouble taking it seriously because it's so demonstrably false.
		And you're not elicit the fact.
		Well, hang on a second, and I'll tell you.
		Six months ago, I would have agreed with you that our world is a globe spinning around the sun.
		And if you would have mentioned the word flat earth, I would have laughed and gone about my business.
		Okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you have an accident?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did something happen?
unidentified		Did something happen?
		Yeah, I looked at the evidence and I scrutinized it in both models, and I found that the only One logical, correct answer is the infinite plane model.
		And I'm sorry, you know, it sounds crazy.
		You haven't given it enough thought yet, but I'm telling you that it's the truth.
		No, no, it's fascinating, John, to hear your reasoning.
		But tell me, I'm really curious.
		What was it?
		I guess this is what Art was asking.
		How is it that all of a sudden, after how many years you've been aware of your everyday surroundings, which I'm sure you've always been, what was it that all of a sudden tipped the scales?
		And just six months ago, you gave up on this thing that was second nature to everyone, that we're on a globe, and it became flat.
		Well, and the reason it's second nature to us is because it's drilled into our minds since our very first day at school.
		You learn one plus one is two, and the world is a globe.
		I mean, that's how early they get you with the propaganda.
		And to answer your question, what happened was I was simply compelled to look at the evidence.
		And I think it's high time that the rational, skeptical scientists of the world take a little time to just rationally, skeptically look at the globe, which is something that you have not done since you were born.
		I've done this.
		All of us have done that.
		You're absolutely right.
		We should look skeptically at our surroundings, and we should rely on pure measurement and observation and not make assumptions.
		And if you follow that course, that's what science is all about.
		You would be forced to conclude, John, there's absolutely no alternative, that we are indeed on a globe, that our globe is spinning, that our globe is not only spinning, it's orbiting the sun.
		Ptolemy went through all this.
		Ptolemy, of course, had this Earth-centric view.
		Copernicus came along and understood that it was just the heliocentric view, and we've been on that course ever since.
		All of the misconceptions and things that didn't quite fit in the Ptolemaic view of what our solar system is all about, which was a much, much simpler thing to understand.
		We had no clue that there were galaxies or everything else going on until the 1920s.
		So this is the last several hundred years, 500 years, 400 years since Copernicus when all of this revolution has taken place, but right up through the last 50 years.
		So you're doing the right thing to be skeptical, but this is exactly what science is.
		Have you ever read Zetatic Astronomy by Dr. Robotham?
		No, I'm afraid I haven't read that.
		Well, you ought to read it because it actually, there's a lot of great proof.
		And, you know, you want to talk about science.
		Okay, let's talk about the North Star Polaris.
		How does the North Star Polaris maintain its alignment?
		And, you know, people say it's hundreds of years, or some people say it's thousands of years.
		people say, oh, well, it changed once.
		Polaris does not maintain its alignment.
		The Earth is a spinning top.
		And if you remember as a kid playing with the top on a tabletop, you pull the string and it spins and it's kind of stationary and then it starts to wobble.
		Remember how that worked?
		It wobbles and then eventually the top falls over on your desk or tabletop.
		That's exactly what the Earth is doing.
		It's a spinning gyroscope.
		And because it's spinning, it's wobbling.
		It's processing, we call it.
		The reason it's doing that is because the moon is producing a gravitational pull on the Earth.
		Wait a minute, what's the problem?
		This is simple physics.
		So the North Star doesn't always stay over the North Pole.
		It's on a circle, and it moves around every 26,000 years.
		No, okay.
		Oh, it does, John.
		You're talking about the procession of the equinoxes, but...
		That's what makes the North Star no longer the North Star.
		The ancient Egyptians didn't have a North Star to line up North on building the Great Pyramids.
		The North Star was way off, Polaris, rather, the star was there, of course, but it was no longer lined up with the spin axis of the Earth.
		All of this is well known.
		So you were around back then.
		We know exactly where Polaris was 5,000 years ago, too.
		You do?
		Yes, we do.
		Just like we do the Earth as a globe.
		Okay.
		No, no.
	No, John.
	The difference is I can measure it.
	I can measure where Polaris was.
	But you can't measure curvature.
	And I can measure that there is curvature.
	So can you, if you go out in an airplane and measure distances on your so-called flat plane, they won't be consistent with a flat plane because it's not a flat plane.
	It's a whole globe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can I ask you a question, please?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to ask a question.
unidentified		I'm running out of time here, Art, but let's have a few more questions, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is my question.
		When you fly from Los Angeles to, let us say, Hong Kong, and you measure the distance, that we can do scientifically.
		I hope John believes we can do that scientifically.
		Do you, John?
unidentified		Well, of course, you can measure distance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and if you take the Great Circle route to get there, it's not as far.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How come?
unidentified		The Great Circle.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if you go north and then around, as if, you know, it's a globe, a ball.
unidentified		Well, because you've got to understand the flat Earth is sort of like the globe model, but it's wrapped around the North Pole.
		You have to study the model to understand it.
		You're trying to apply globe model laws and maps to the flat Earth map.
		You've got to understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just talking mileage here.
unidentified		Mileage?
unidentified		Okay, well, then how can you explain that you can fit Canada twice into the length of Russia on the standard maps?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm asking you a question, and you're responding with another question.
unidentified		Exactly.
		That's the point.
		I mean, you can't go by the maps that you're looking at because they're inaccurate.
		Well, John, they can be confirmed by going out.
		If you wanted to go out with a ruler stick, you can measure what your map should be telling you.
		That's the way maps are constructed.
		You probably know all about GPS.
		I don't know if you have a cell phone, but that's what tells you where you are, again, on the surface of a globe.
		Are you familiar with that?
		Your theory were Right.
		You're living on this distorted flat plane.
		GPS wouldn't work.
		Nothing would work.
		Are you familiar with Nikolaitesla's towers that he invented?
		I think it was like, what, in the 20s or 30s or whatever, where it was basically wireless communication.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, you're doing it again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No question.
unidentified		That's where radio communication began.
		That's precisely what's used to triangulations.
		Yes, I know.
		Cell phone towers.
		Yes, of course, John.
		That's exactly what we're talking about.
		Why would we need satellites if we can bounce radio waves off the ionosphere anyway?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you know what, gentlemen, Doctor, hold tight.
unidentified		We're at a break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have to break.
unidentified		The ionosphere disturbs the signal to begin with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it right there, gentlemen.
		I have to break.
		This is radio.
		I have to deal with time.
unidentified		This is Midnight.
		Midnight.
		Thank you.
		Coming to you at the speed of light in the darkness.
		This is Midnight in the Desert with Art Bell.
		Now, here's Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here I am.
		We've got with us John.
		He's anonymous beyond that name for business purposes.
		Dr. Josh Grinley.
		And we're discussing whether or not the Earth is flat.
		It's been pretty spirited, I would say.
		I would like to get a couple more points in.
		I can sense the doctor is getting close to bailing, but a couple of more points.
		And for example, here's one.
		John says, how can the upper atmosphere be adjacent to the vacuum of outer space?
unidentified		Gravity, John.
		Gravity pulls the atmosphere, keeps it on this round globe.
		Why is it round?
		Because that's the equilibrium shape that a mass must assume.
		That's why stars are round, spherical.
		They're not pancakes.
		So all of this we understand, John.
		But again, I'm not trying to sound like I'm belittling.
		I hope I don't convey that.
		I'm trying to convince you, John, that you ought to lighten up here and understand what the whole world of science has arrived at, not just recently, but over hundreds of years.
		And with such incredible discovery in the last decade or two.
		Those Hubble images we were talking about.
		I could also talk about X-ray images that we have from the telescope.
		You got it, Gravity.
		And you think they're all fake.
		This is just so discouraging.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, everything that does seem to be proof, doctor, you're right, seems to be then judged to be faked by John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And John sounds like such a bright guy that I just can't figure how he...
unidentified		That's why I was asking what happened six months ago.
		I mean, it's great to have a moment of truth and say, my God, what is the world I'm living in?
		That's fine.
		I'm all in favor of that.
		But to deny rational thinking and thousands of years, beginning with the Greeks, who I keep coming back to, they're so amazing what the Greeks did.
		But all of modern science.
		And you've got it all cooked up to be a giant hoax.
		It's just a matter of time.
		So you say that it's the magic of gravity that keeps the atoms.
		There's no magic of gravity at all.
		Isaac Newton taught us what gravity is, and we now understand it.
		Isaac Newton is.
		Okay, hold on.
		Now, first of all, gravity was theorized in order to account for the fact that we're not flung from the spinning Earth at 1,000 miles per hour towards the east near the equator.
		Okay, gravity is a theory to prove the globe model.
		Now, you're also saying that...
		Well, there's no need for gravity on the flat stationary Earth that we dwell on because we're not spinning at 1,000 miles per hour, so you don't have to account for that outward thrust generated by the spin.
		Okay, okay.
		It's the simple laws of density or buoyancy that causes, you know, heavier, denser objects to find their way down and lighter, less dense objects to find their way up.
		It's the natural order of things, and there's no need for gravity to explain the law of physics.
		What goes up must come down on the flat.
		Really?
		Well, then, I mean, why do things come down?
		If I throw a ball in the air, why does it have to come down?
		Something's pulling it down, John.
		Well, it's more than likely, sir, it's electromagnetic, but gravity has never been proved, sir.
		It is a theory.
		Oh, gravity has been proved time and time again.
		And of course, it began with Newton.
		No, sir.
		We're on the verge, John.
		If you don't like the proofs of gravity so far, in probably the next five years, there will be a very major discovery that will come from astrophysics, but from physics, really, and that is of waves of gravity, gravitational waves.
		Yeah, that have never, ever been detected, even though.
		That's right, but there now is an 800-year telescope in the state of Washington and another one in Louisiana and another one in Italy and in Europe.
		And those gigantic gravitational wave telescopes are now almost sensitive enough to detect the gravitational wave sources that we have proven are out there.
		Gravity is a theoretical fantasy that was dreamed up by Paul.
		I don't think that's what anybody else but you and your colleagues and your field of nature was designed.
		Sir, gravity was a theory designed or theorized to explain the globe model and why we're not flung from the face of the world.
		No, no, no, that's not what gravity was designed to do at all.
		It was designed to explain the fact that objects fall.
		That has nothing to do with the globe model.
		Okay, then what is keeping us pinned to the Earth while we're spinning 1,000 miles per hour?
		Mass of the Earth, John.
		That's what it is due to.
		It is, yes, because the Earth is not a flat plane.
		Gravity is supposedly due to the mass of the Earth.
		Warping space-time is not a very important point.
		No, no, no, John.
		No, no, no, no.
		You're getting confused.
		Warping space-time has nothing whatsoever to do with the Earth's gravity.
		It's a very teeny, teeny, tiny effect, barely measurable.
		Measurable.
		It's been measured.
		It's not that tiny.
		But Newton, of course, had no conception of this.
		It was 300 years until Einstein told us and instructed us in his brilliant way about the warping of space and time.
		But that we haven't talked about.
		If we were talking black holes, which is what I normally like to think about, we'd be having fun discussing warped space-time.
		But gravity on the Earth, no need for any of that.
		The apple falls from the tree.
		That's what Newton observed and said, my God, how could this happen?
		Because the apple is denser than the air above it, and it's not as dense as the ground below it.
		So that's where it finds its way to, just like everything else.
	It's natural.
	It's natural thing.
	No, then if that were true, John, then we would have everything.
	If everything were density dependent, all of our laws of motion would be totally different.
	Airplanes wouldn't fly.
	Motors wouldn't work.
	You're defying everything that's around you.
	Airplanes wouldn't fly without gravity, with all due respect.
	That's ridiculous.
	Airplanes fly due to barometric or the pressure beneath the wing being different than the pressure above the two.
	But what I'm saying is that when you're denying gravity and Newton, you're denying all of the physics, the very simple physics that goes with that, which is all just theory.
	It's all the devices that you are using in your everyday life.
	You're denying science.
	No, I'm denying a theory that was dreamed up by proponents of the globe model that it's demonstrably false.
	Again, the globe model had nothing to do with it.
	It really didn't.
	The globe model.
	It was a conceptualization that Newton may have used.
	He didn't have to.
	It's not gravity.
	The only reason you need gravity is to explain the fact that you're not flown from the Earth at 1,000 miles per hour near the equator due to the outward thrust generated by the spin of the Earth.
	That's what gravity was theorized to defend the globe model.
	No, that's not, John, I'm sorry, you're wrong.
	That's not what gravity was theorized to deal with.
	So you're changing history now.
	No, I'm changing the history.
	John, you weren't understand what Newton did.
	Read the Principia and understand.
	Newton was trying to explain acceleration, force, and mass.
	And gravity was his way of understanding and explaining why we are bound to the ground that we're standing on.
	That's a theory.
	Why objects and with a certain acceleration?
	The very simple laws of motion that Newton so brilliantly derived explain to pumping decimal places why objects move as they do.
	It's all because of a force, the gravitational force, acting on them, that objects are accelerated when they fall at 32 feet per second per second.
	So do you agree that inertia is possibly an electromagnetic force?
	No, I don't at all.
	Inertia has nothing to do with electromagnetic forces.
	It has to do with the state of matter as matter as a source of mass that has inertia.
	Force equals mass times acceleration, Newton's famous equation.
	All of these things have nothing whatsoever to do with the globe of the Earth.
	They can be generalized to talk about what happens on a globe, but that's not at all.
	So the same, okay, so just so I got this straight, the same gravity that is so weak that keeps me stuck to the Earth, but also keeps the atmosphere from being sucked into the vacuum of space.
	Okay, that explains it perfectly.
	It does.
	It does.
	I was being sarcastic, but okay.
	No, I know you were, but it does.
	It explains it to the T. And it also explains why if you take a steel ball bearing and roll it on a table, and the table is tilted so it is now accelerated as it's rolling faster and faster.
	All of that, which has nothing to do with the atmosphere of the Earth or the shape of the Earth, just constantly has to do with acceleration velocity.
	All of that is explained by Newton's laws.
	That's what I'm trying to convince you of.
	Well, there's some basic understanding of both.
	Yeah, I mean, I agree.
	There are laws like what goes up must come down.
	I agree that's a law of physics, but I disagree that gravity was a very important thing.
	And what's the source of acceleration is, which is gravity in the case that we're talking about here.
	So what I'm trying to convince you of is that there is a reasoned approach which has been worked out with great minds, the real heroes of science, people like Newton and then Einstein, much, much later.
	And you can't deny these guys.
	It had nothing to do with the Earth being round.
	Of course, the Earth being a globe, as we know it is, allowed many other things to be explained by the same basic laws of motion and allowed us to get to the moon and to get a spacecraft out to the planet Pluto.
	All of that wouldn't have been possible without the physics that has been developed and understood over the last 350 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he thinks all Pluto mission was fake anyway.
unidentified		I know, I know.
		But it's really tragic, John, because you're missing out on some really exciting stuff.
		So, Dr. Grinley, if anybody could have possibly photoshopped, that's the amazing part of it.
		What's the event that NASA's doing is fantastically better than anything NASA has been lying to everyone, but anyways, do you agree that even if I was to show you all kinds of irrefutable proof that the Earth was not a spinning globe, that you would agree, that you would never change your mind that it was indeed always going to be a spinning globe, no matter what?
		No, I only go on the basis of measurement and observation, John.
		It's not really bound to some, you know, I hope that you live up to that, and only you will know, you know, the truth of whether you're actually going to live up to that.
		But if you go by observation and the scientific method, then there's only one correct answer, and it is not a spinning globe.
		Well, John, I'm afraid we're just having a rather pointless argument because you're denying mathematics and fact.
		Well, you haven't done any of these measurements.
		You haven't gone out and done the simple tabletop experiments I was talking about, which tell us that the something we understand.
		And what you're proposing, beginning with your model for the sun, which is the most fantastic thing that has nothing whatsoever to do with physics.
		Magnetic anomalies producing the enormous luminosity of the sun that is keeping us all warm and alive.
		John, the sun and the moon and the stars and the wandering stars, the planets, and the celestial bodies are definitely beautiful and mysterious features of our world.
		It's not a heliocentric model with an inmate universe.
		The whole model is wrong.
		I'm afraid you've just missed out on the last 500 years of intellectual thought, and it's really shame.
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, either that or his science teacher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe his science teacher hit him hard.
unidentified		It's really sad that you just have lost contact with reality.
		Well, I'm sorry, sir, but I could say the same thing.
		It's been irrefutably proved that the Earth is not a spinning globe, but no matter what, until you break the programming and simply look at the evidence with an open mind, you will always dwell on a spinning globe.
		John, an open mind is looking at data.
		Data, my friend.
		Pictures.
		Real measurements.
		Not distorted maps with the North Pole at the center and all of this.
		Perfectly visible buildings from over 50 miles away and planes that somehow have identical durations traveling east and west on a globe spinning to the east.
		No, but you went through it and you glossed over it.
		You didn't understand, John.
		You just weren't listening.
		You weren't understanding.
		You weren't listening, but okay.
		We'll agree to disagree on that, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, listen, I want to thank you both.
		I think we've come, unless we can discuss actual points here, we've come to a stop.
		John wonders how we can see the same stars overhead in the summer, but also in the winter.
unidentified		And, of course, the answer, John, is we don't.
		Do you think you see the star Vega overhead in the winter, which we see overhead in more or less June and July?
		No, we don't.
		Stars on the opposite side of the sun, John.
		The sun's in the way.
		There are stars that should be totally invisible during the entire winter that we can see overhead in the winter, and we can also see them overhead in the summer.
		There's no way we could ever see the same stars in the winter compared to the summer because the sun would be behind, you know, in between those stars in your eye.
		That's exactly why we don't see Vega in the winter.
		One star, one star.
		No, no, lots of whole constellations, John.
		No, you don't understand.
		You should never see any of the same stars in the winter versus summer.
		Well, with your model, I guess this.
		Oh, in the false heliocentric model.
		Look, do you know what the constellation Orion?
		Can I talk specific here?
		Do you know what Orion is?
		It's a beautiful story.
		I know what Orion is.
		It's visible in November and December.
		Of course.
		All right.
		We don't see that in the spring.
		Okay?
		Precisely for the reason you're saying, the sun is in the way.
		It's true for every star in the sky, unless you're close to the poles.
		see Polaris all through the year because it's not in the plane of the ecliptic where the spin axis is pointing so we get to see it as a normal What's that?
		So Polaris must be traveling millions of miles through space back and forth to maintain perfect alignment with our measly, wobbly North Pole.
		No, no, no, no, no, John.
		No.
		It's millions and hundreds of millions of miles away.
		So that's a pretty perfect alignment, isn't it?
		No, it's not perfect alignment.
		I already told you that 5,000 years ago it wasn't aligned over the North Pole at all.
		The Earth's spin axis is wobbling in space.
		So you don't agree that for that thing to be so many hundreds of, however billions of miles away, that there's not a very, very nicely perfect alignment with our North Pole for it to stay directly above it all year long?
		John, the Earth is a gyroscope.
		Its axis is precisely fixed on the sky.
		On the North Pole.
		Not on the North Pole.
		It's not on the North Pole star, the North Pole star.
		John, Polaris just happens to be lined up on our North Pole.
		26,000 years from now, it will be lined up again.
		You're not listening to me, John.
		The trouble, John, is you don't seem to understand basic, simple physical facts, which have been proven over centuries of thought and reason and measurement.
		And what you're talking about has nothing to do with measurement.
		No, what you're talking about has to do with nothing to do with reality, sir.
		Oh, I see.
		Well, it's just because you are living in a...
		I guess there is, John.
		It's all something that is very simple physics, and I guess I just can't say it to you because you've obviously never taken any basic science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John also asks, why don't we have equal 12-hour days and nights all year round?
unidentified		And the answer is because we're living on a spinning globe.
		And we have the Earth's axis, this thing that John doesn't seem to understand, that we're pointed fixed in space on the celestial sphere, pointing, just happened by pure happenstance to be pointing close to, but not precisely at, the direction of a star that we call Polaris.
		So because the Earth's axis is tilted with respect to our orbit around the sun, the days and nights, length of the day and the length of the night change.
		This is all basic sixth grade general science that John should have learned.
		You haven't thought it through, doctor, because if you look at the...
		Well, you've misled a lot of people because on an Earth that is spinning a constant speed, you should have equal 12-hour days and nights.
		John, look, because you don't understand simple geometry.
		That would only be true, John, if the Earth's spin axis were perpendicular to its orbit around the Sun.
		Then we would have equal days and nights, correct?
		But it's not.
		The Earth is tilted.
		That's why we have seasons, John.
		That's why we have winter.
		The reason we have seasons is because the opposite time that is in the southern hemisphere.
		These are all basic facts.
		The sun is traveling in an oscillating flat circle around the magnetic center, which is fixed on moving.
		See, what you've done is you have this hopelessly contrived, complicated wheels within wheels picture, which is what Ptolemy and the ancients thought was going on because there was no understanding of physical reality.
		We now have something that we understand perfectly, and we teach it to our sixth graders, and you should have learned this way back when.
		And it doesn't require a lot of people.
		I turn to all of them.com.
		I know all of the machines.
		So what I'm trying to convince you of is that the beauty of science and that we have a really complete understanding of this is a remarkable intellectual achievement.
		There's no favorite.
		Science, with all due respect, is not science.
		What you call science is looking at pretty pictures and trumping what is measurable and verifiable.
		Pretty pictures are just a wonderful byproduct.
		What I call science is truth and understanding reality.
		What you are doing is inventing a reality which goes back to the, as I keep saying, the sort of Ptolemaic view, wheels with wheels, magnetic anomalies, all of these things that are contrived realities to make things consistent with the world.
		Contrived falsity is the globe model, and anybody can verify that we indeed live on a flat stationary plane.
		I think we've gone as far as we can go because you're still there.
		Well, as I told Art, this debate is interesting.
		It's been fun, and I respect your point of view.
		I'm not trying to put you down, but what I've tried to convince you of over the last hour and a half is that the real picture that all the rest of the world believes, I think you're in a very small minority, as I'm sure you must realize, and for some reason I'm still fascinated to think about or understand whatever led you to adopt this view on such a recent time scale as six months ago.
		There must have been some remarkable thing that happened.
		Yeah, there was.
		And again, I was simply compelled to look at the evidence and scrutinize both models and draw rational, verifiable conclusions.
		And I wish you would do the same thing.
		Okay.
		Well, John, this is what I do every day.
		I do verifiable models and well, by saying that gravity is a proved fact, you are not a scientist.
		Oh, John.
		John, listen, this gets to be the point where it's just not useful to discuss.
		It's not just me thinking that gravity is a proven fact.
		This goes back to all of the thoroughly difficult.
		I refuse to, you know, there are points at which I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, this is that point.
		So, you know what, doctor?
		I'm going to thank you.
		Hold on, John.
		Hold on.
		Doctor, I'm going to thank you for being here.
		I'm going to invite you back so we can do a show on everything that you do know about.
unidentified		Well, I think I know everything about what this fellow, John, who is, is talking about, but I find it very disappointing that somebody who clearly can at least articulate, but not describe very accurately, even his theory, although I think I see the broad picture of it.
		It's, I think, just very unfortunate that one can come to such a limited view and perspective of what the real world is.
		When one has the natural beauty of what the real world is to understand it right at your fingertips, it's what all of science is all about.
		You can't just throw it out the window and go back to this early primitive way of thinking that we must be on a flat earth.
		It's not primitive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For it to be true, for what John says to be true, so much has to be thrown out the window and the rest of it has to be just labeled fake.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Well, no, I don't think everything has to be labeled fake.
		I think that we've all been misled as an entire species to one specific end, which is to essentially trick us into believing we live on a finite, enclosed system with no escape.
		And they've done a great job of it because even the rational, skeptical, scientific, very brilliant minds of the world are trapped in a matrix of a globe model.
		And until you can just really...
		Why do you...
		Because it's all done.
		Since we've been very young, it's drilled into our paradigm and we never ever question it.
		That's why I'm telling you.
		Oh, this is what science is all about?
		Questioning, questioning.
		No, it isn't, sir, because I've already proved to you in this conversation that the world is flat and stationary.
		No, you have not, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But then you pointed to the path.
unidentified		Your proof is demonstrably wrong, and I'm not going to go back over it.
		I've pointed out to you ways that your so-called proof is ridiculous.
		We can measure distance.
		We haven't even considered that we're living on a spherical surface.
		We're not going to go back over this again.
		This is where we started an hour and a half ago.
		So again, the tragedy is you're just denying intellectual history and thinking.
		It has nothing to do with being led astray.
		It's the opposite.
		It's the exact opposite.
		What science does is to confront the very primitive ways we could only understand our world back in prehistoric times.
		What you're proposing is, of course, exactly what everybody thought more or less must be the case.
		We're on a flat earth.
		It began on the back of a turtle or God knows what.
		All of this has taken over tens of thousands of years, but really only over the last 500 years, 2,000 years, again going back to the Greeks, to finally be clarified.
		And there's no fakery or misleading thing going on, which is, of course, what you require to make your theory stand up in light of all the evidence.
		And when you say the simple, verifiable truth has nothing to do with the globe.
		The globe is demonstrably false, and in fact, it's preposterous if you scrutinize it.
		Okay, at that point, John, I'm sorry, I'm going to sign off because I've tried to make you aware of the beauty of this.
		Because you've regurgitated the programming is all you've done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, I think he's done a great job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, I want to have you back and talk about black holes, pulsars, all kinds of good things.
unidentified		Okay, well, we'll be happy to do that at some point.
		But this is quite disappointing to see that there could still be this view out there amongst a small segment of society.
		I know from what little I've heard about this group, but it just shows that our whole education system still has a ways to go.
		Although, on the whole, it is doing well because most people, everybody, I would say, has generally been taught and not felt that they've been brainwashed or whatever John may be suggesting into some very peculiar view, but instead is the learning of the general scientific realm is there for the most part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, I'm going to break it off with you and say thank you, and I want to have you back and talk about all the other stuff if we can do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, thank you so very much.
unidentified		Yep, you're very welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, John, we've still got you and time for a final statement from you, John.
unidentified		Sure.
		And, you know, I appreciate you having me on, Art.
		It's been a real honor.
		I'm flattered.
		I disagree with the doctor, you know, and I think he's certainly a very smart, intelligent person.
		But I really have looked at this.
		I've thought about it.
		I wouldn't be out here shouting from the rooftops that I believe that we live on a flat, you know, stationary plane unless I had scrutinized it, verified it.
		And unfortunately, even the scientific people of the world are simply unable to even just hypothesize that we live on anything but a globe.
		And in fact, if you do look at the evidence and scrutinize it and certain things we can verify and prove, the globe earth model, the heliocentric model is indeed wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, you know, again, from my point of view, as I listened, and I wouldn't have missed this for all the world, so many things have to either be wrong or fake or just so far out for anybody to grasp what it is that you've been saying.
		But nevertheless, listen, I appreciate your being here tonight.
		I appreciate your making the argument.
		People who have never heard this argument made before probably have their chins on their chests.
		I appreciate your being here, John.
		Take care.
unidentified		Take care.
unidentified		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't have missed it for the world, flat or around.
		Open lines are coming up.
		Stay right where you are.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		For Dark Matter News, I'm Leo Ashcraft.
		The man who was killed Wednesday by Nashville police after he allegedly went after moviegoers with a hatchet and pepper spray had been committed to a mental institution four times.
		Vincent David Montano was committed twice in 2004 and twice in 2007.
		Montano had been arrested in Murfreesboro, Tennessee in 2004 in a case of assault and resisting arrest.
		Police say they have no motive for Wednesday's attack.
		Montano had an air pistol with him that he aimed and fired at the police in the theater.
		Such a weapon looks just like a semi-automatic pistol, but fires plastic or BB pellets.
		Montano's mother had filed a missing report with the Texas Rangers two days ago, and they had notified the authorities in Tennessee.
		In the report, his mother, Dennis Pruitt, told authorities that Montano was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia in 2006.
		From ancient pyramids to military bunkers.
		There's not much conspiracy theorists haven't seen on Mars.
		Now, in their latest bizarre sighting, alien hunters say they've spotted a mysterious facehugger crab on the Red Planet.
		Since the image was uploaded on Facebook, a number of people have said it looks like the facehugger monster shown in the 1979 film Alien.
		The crab Can be seen in an image taken by the Mars rover Curiosity, which shows a formation that looks like a cavemouth on the red planet.
		The photo was taken by NASA in July, but recently appeared in a Facebook group, who has the slogan, they will not tell the truth about Mars.
		You can take a look at the photo yourself by visiting artbell.com and let us know what you see.
		Of the 91 metals that we know to exist, only three are truly magnetic at room temperature, iron, cobalt, and nickel.
		This poses somewhat of a problem as we have to rely heavily on these elements for anything for which we need magnetism, like MRI scanners, computer memory storage, and wind turbines.
		But what if we could make more of these 91 metals magnetic?
		That's exactly what a team of scientists led by the University of Leeds has been able to do, turning the non-magnetic materials manganese and copper magnetic.
		Although the effect was fairly weak, the research published in Natural Materials Science is hugely promising, and they think that the method could be applied to almost any metal.
		Future technologies such as quantum computers will require a new breed of magnetics with additional properties to increase storage and processing capabilities.
		This research is a step towards creating such magnetic metamaterials that can fulfill this need.
		The researchers will now try to enhance the effect in the hope that some of the numerous practical applications can be fulfilled.
		This is Dark Matter News.
		It seems like close encounters of the window seat kind are happening more frequently these days.
		Videos have been released of three different UFO sightings near commercial aircraft that have occurred over the past several months, with more undoubtedly unrecorded or unreported.
		What's causing this sudden attraction of UFOs to airplanes?
		The most recent sighting has been getting a lot of publicity since it occurred at JFK Airport in New York City while the plane was taking off.
		The video taken by an anonymous plane enthusiast shows a virgin Atlantic plane rising in the sky on July 7th and then being overtaken by a UFO seen flying above it.
		The cigar-shaped object is too close to be another commercial aircraft and no military jets were reported in the area.
		The next two sightings took place in England, one from June 12th over Lamborne, England, showing an airplane passing by a UFO, and the third sighting was made by a passenger inside a plane flying over Liverpool.
		There's been no definitive identifications of any of these UFOs seen accompanying or passing the planes.
		Commercial and military pilots admit they see a lot of UFOs, but sightings by passengers and ground witnesses are less frequent.
		So what do you think these objects are?
		Why are they hanging around airplanes?
		Check out the photos and videos at darkmatternews.com and let us know your opinion.
		I'm Leo Ashcraft for Dark Matter News.
unidentified		Dark Matter News
		You'd think that people wouldn't have enough a silly love song But I look around me and I see it isn't so The people wanna fill the world for silly love song But what's wrong with that?
		To initiate a dialogue sequence with Art Bell, please coordinate your phalanges and call 1-952-225-5278.
		That's 1-952-CALL ART.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was radio gold, or as one caller said not long ago, radio platinum.
		If anybody ever tells you the earth is flat, you're going to want to refer them to that 90 minutes of radio that we just did.
		It was remarkable from so many different perspectives.
		One, it was an example of a highly credentialed man putting up with 90 minutes more than I thought he could possibly take.
		Number two, it was an example of somebody who was obviously very bright named John, not his real name, because he didn't want to be known as a flat earth guy, you know, in business.
		And that's fine.
		But he was obviously, he had a pretty decent level of intellect, right?
		Didn't he?
		He was pretty smart.
		He was arguing a lot of points that you had to be reasonably well educated to argue, even if you're wrong.
		And so the big question is, what happened to John?
		How could he so fervently, suddenly believe what he apparently believes?
		I blew right through a break so we wouldn't have to stop and we could get the full 90 minutes in.
		And I'm telling you right now, you've got to point this 90 minutes of radio out to somebody you know.
		We're going to open lines.
		And here are the numbers.
		The public number is area code 952-225-5278.
		952-225-5278.
		Now, we also have Skype, and I invite you to call us for free from virtually anywhere in the world by Skype.
		North America, America, and Canada can call by calling us at MITD51.
		That's M-I-T-D, as in Midnight in the Desert 51.
		People outside the United States and Canada can call by dialing M-I-T-D55.
		M-I-T-D-5-5.
		Best way to call, so everybody loves your call because you'll sound great.
		If you've got an iPhone 6 or an Android of some sort, put these in so you can dial anytime you want because you never know when you're going to hear something that so frustrates you that if you don't call, you'll explode.
		The last 90 minutes were, frankly, a lot like that in every way.
		Evan, I'm going to put you on the air on Skype.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		How are you doing this evening?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm recovering.
unidentified		Recovering, yes, yeah.
		Yeah.
		Well, I've got to ask you, is that guy actually for real?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no doubt about it.
		You know, I just finished saying it.
		John was obviously a bright guy and something happened to him.
		I mean, like a science teacher smacked him with something hard, or I don't know what happened.
unidentified		Opened his mind too much, it fell out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
unidentified		Sorry.
		I was just going to relay an experience, actually.
		The city I live in here, I don't know if you're aware of the phenomenon or not, but you know the loud booms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		You know what I'm talking about?
		We in here, I live in Calgary, Alberta.
		In the particular neighborhood I'm in, there has been for about the past six years now, almost probably about at least a couple of times a day, a series of loud booms going off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Man, we're hearing all about it.
unidentified		Yeah, no, but it's been on, they're doing local research into it as well, actually.
		They put some research into it.
		If anyone wants to Google Ranchlands Calgary noise, there's a study they've been doing on it, and six years they still can't figure out what's causing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No idea?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No theories?
unidentified		Not at all.
		They involve a local university.
		Everything I honestly couldn't tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are mysteries within science, and this clearly is one of them.
		A lot of people think they're connected to earthquakes.
		How about that one?
unidentified		Yeah, well, it's food for thought anyways.
		Thank you very much for taking my call.
		Pleasure to speak to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you for making it.
		And I want to report very quickly before we move on on something that we've been talking about for years.
		HARP.
		Do you know about HAARP?
		The high-frequency active auroral research program?
		Guess what, folks?
		It's going to transfer from military into academic hands next month.
		That's right.
		The military is giving up HARP.
		After a swell of support last year from the scientific community and intervention by Alaska v.
		Senator Lisa Murkowski, plus a lot of uncertainty before that, the U.S. Air Force delayed its plans to shutter the ultra-high-power HARP and demolish it.
		Now, the University of Alaska Fairbanks has won a bid to assume ownership of the facility near Kakona.
		That's going to happen on August 11th.
		Now, I'm a ham operator, and a lot of ham operators think that our government, while it had HARP in its hands, screwed up our ionosphere big time.
		So now it's going to pass, and actually the ARRL, the organization that represents Amateur Radio, David Sumner, has written the U.S. Secretary of Defense to urge that HAARP be maintained in its current condition until the UAF Geophysical Institute's proposal process has been completed by the National Science Foundation.
		He says most of our 164,000 members employ ionospheric propagation of HF radio signals for their communications and technical investigations.
		Sumner told then Defense Secretary Hagel, ionospheric research therefore has great significance and importance to us.
		And as ham operators, certainly the ionosphere is very, very important.
		But frankly, Mr. Sumner, a lot of the hams out here think that they really screwed it up.
		And if there's any hams out there who want to comment on that, you're welcome to.
		So HAARP passes from government hands into private hands.
		Then what?
		Well, because I blew a break in the last half hour on purpose, and I mean blew it.
		In fact, we blew everything right on through the roof.
		We'll take that break now and then we'll continue.
		From the high desert, this is midnight in the desert.
		My name is Art Bell.
		Stay with us and rock and roll.
unidentified		Don't run by the wind Don't die in a spin Don't run by the wind I did not be the top.
		I did not have to be.
		I didn't have to stop.
		Blown it all sky high By telling me a lie Without a reason why Blown it all sky high Blown
		it all sky high Blown it
		all sky high Blown it all sky high Take a ride from the high desert and the great American Southwest.
		This is Midnight in the Desert, exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network.
		To call the show, dial 1-952.
		Call Art.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Open lines, folks.
		Anything you want to talk about is absolutely fair game.
		If you have a comment on what you've been hearing, you're certainly welcome to make that.
		We've got plenty of people wanting to say something, that's for sure.
		Let's go to Tulsa, Oklahoma on the phones.
		Hi, you're on there.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		First-time caller, long-time listener.
		I just wanted to say two things.
		One, I absolutely love the doctor, and I would be very sad if we were unable to see him again.
		He was an excellent guest, and I really enjoyed hearing him.
		I really hope we're going to hear him talk about deep space pulsars and black holes and everything else.
		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he will come back.
		We talked about that.
		He knew what he was facing tonight.
		I think, you know, he deserves a gold star for even facing off like this on this subject.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		Yep.
		So the other thing was for John.
		I don't know if he's still on the line with us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't think that would be fair.
unidentified		Okay.
		Yeah.
		So the deal I would say for him, because he was wondering about airplanes traveling on the globe in one direction, the other direction.
		And what I would do, I'd say for him a simple experiment he can do to observe the principles himself would be to set in his vehicle and accelerate to whatever the speed limit is in his area, we'll say 65 miles an hour, set cruise control.
		Take a pencil or pin and hold it out and drop it.
		Now, according to what he's thinking, the pin or pencil should fly right straight to the back of the vehicle, not fall down.
		Because when he realizes that that pin is moving at whatever speed the vehicle is moving, it should be easier in his mind to realize, okay, the entire globe is spinning.
		So everything on the globe is spinning at that rate, and everything else is relative to that.
		And it would be a nice way to illustrate that.
		I had to explain this to a kid recently, and I actually went through the same thing, but not for flat earth reasons.
		The kid was wondering why if I dropped something, I dropped my book bag on the school bus and it didn't fly, why not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder how many people embrace...
		Clearly, John was not a dunce.
		He was a pretty bright guy.
		So you're only left wondering what happened to John.
unidentified		Well, you know, some of it might just be isolating yourself from other views because he was really, I hate to say closed-minded, but he immediately shut down anything about math, science, demonstrable measurements, anything from NASA was all a lie.
unidentified		Once you isolate yourself, I mean, that does it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it tells us something about, I don't know what it tells us.
		You know, it's confusing to me because on the one hand, he's a bright guy.
		Even to sit and be able to argue with the doctor, you could tell he was a bright guy, but all twisted up in a way that I can't fathom.
unidentified		You know, I'm not sure how old he was, but I assume we're probably in the same generation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like.
unidentified		I love space, and I'm jealous of your generation.
		You guys got to see the moon walk.
		We have nothing.
		We shut down our space program.
		It's a shame.
		It's a shame.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me be John for a second.
		Of course we shut it down.
		We couldn't keep up that lie for that long.
unidentified		I'll clear the line so you can take the next caller, but I appreciate it, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's been a great show.
		Thank you very much for calling.
		Take care.
		I had to bunch the breaks up a little bit here.
		Let's go to Giadono, somewhere in California, I think, on the phone.
		Hi, you're on there.
unidentified		Yeah, hi, Art.
		I'm debating whether to talk about this previous segment or not, because there's so much.
		There's so much fertile ground to plow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know.
unidentified		But instead, I think I'll thank you very much for having Preston Dennett on last week.
		He cleared something up for me that I've been wondering about for like more than 30 years.
		And if he's correct, what I had more than 30 years ago was an out-of-body experience, but it involved witnessing something from a past life.
		And that something that I witnessed was my being executed in an electric chair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
unidentified		Yeah, and I figure it was the 30s, maybe the late 20s or in the 30s or possibly the 1940s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What had you done?
unidentified		I don't know.
		Whatever it was, it was bad enough to be executed.
		And I witnessed the hood going over the face from my perspective, and I experienced the jolt of the electricity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how was it?
unidentified		It was quick.
unidentified		I will tell you it was quick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in a lot of executions, it's not.
		If they don't get everything just right, they've had guys' heads catch on fire.
		It's awful.
unidentified		Oh, I know.
		I know.
		But in my case, it was excursively brief.
		And you had mentioned one of your hang-ups is being afraid.
		And I tend to think that whatever fear you're experiencing in that sort of experience of OBE is fear that you're bringing with you.
		And just to tell you that there's really nothing there that can harm you other than what you bring along with you to freak you out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, thank you very much for the call.
		I really appreciate it.
		Right.
		Take care.
		Let's see.
		Okay.
		Let's.
		Well, no, let me talk about that fear.
		A million times I've tried to tell myself, don't be afraid when these things happen.
		But going back to my most recent experience, you know, the shadow guy, it didn't work at all.
		Absolutely didn't work at all.
		From the first second I saw him, I was absolutely terrified.
		So somebody's going to have to teach me how when these things occur, how when a giant triangle appears over you or a shadow guy next to you, you don't be afraid.
		Instead, you relax and you sort of white light yourself, I think people say, And you know, all the rest of it.
		Let me go overseas somewhere.
		Will, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
unidentified		Hey, how are you going, mate?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds Aussie to me.
unidentified		Very Aussie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Newcastle in Australia, East Coast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you.
unidentified		Yeah, good to be on.
unidentified		I've followed you for years and years, and yeah, great to get through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seems to me like people in Australia are beginning to discover us big time.
unidentified		Yeah, I tell all my friends.
unidentified		So I've got a few people tuning in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hi, people.
		Yes.
		Anyway, go ahead.
unidentified		Yeah, the flat earth stuff from the first part of the show.
		Right.
		Yeah, I started seeing videos and stuff on Facebook and YouTube about 12 months ago and thought it was absolutely ludicrous.
		And then I watched them.
		They're a couple of hours long and did my own due diligence.
		And what I found out isn't too far from what Jay was talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another flat earther.
unidentified		Another flat earther.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, you know, we need to explore how this happened to you.
		You were exposed, obviously, to flat earth stuff, propaganda, and somehow you became converted.
		How long a process was that?
unidentified		Probably about six weeks of really scratching my head.
		And I spend a lot of time outside at night.
		You didn't scratch it raw or anything, did you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bleeding?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How's the head injury?
unidentified		You sure?
unidentified		No head injury.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, look, look here.
		We're at a breakpoint.
		I'm going to hold you over.
		All right?
		We've got to explore this.
		I've got to try to understand.
unidentified		There's got to be a way to hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Midnight by Mark Bell.
unidentified		There's going to tell you when it comes to the first time.
		The End
		The End I can't survive, I can't stay alive without your love.
		Oh baby, don't leave me this way, no.
		I can't exist, I'll surely miss your tender kiss.
		Don't leave me this way.
		Midnight in the Desert spans the world.
		To call us from outside the U.S. and Canada only.
		Use Skype with a headset mic if on a computer and call MITD55.
		That's MITD55.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Ross.
		We're back, and as a matter of fact, the other side of the globe is where we're going again.
		Back to Australia and Will, who is another Flat Earther.
		And what astounds me about the Flat Earthers is they seem otherwise like pretty bright people.
		So how does that happen, Will?
unidentified		I don't know.
		Just like I said before the break, I spent a lot of time outside at night.
		And yeah, just what I was seeing and staring at just didn't quite add up.
		And I just started looking for answers.
		Why?
		Because the answers that we're told in school and stuff just didn't make sense to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you actually think our sun is only 3,000 miles above us?
unidentified		I still undecided on how far the sun is away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, see, it has to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, to be really a flat earther, that sun has to be sitting out there 3,000 miles or it doesn't work.
unidentified		Yeah, I wouldn't go preaching on people's doorsteps about it, but it just made a lot more sense to me than the globe.
unidentified		The evidence they put forward is quite good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but again, if you want it to be true, then the sun has to be only 3,000 miles up.
unidentified		That may be so.
		Like you said, you'd have to go up and have a look.
		There's just no real way to tell from down here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you agree with John that all of the NASA stuff, all of the stuff we know about, is fake?
unidentified		That's a big question.
		Yes and no.
		Because last night's show had a lot of stuff to do with they went there, but not the way that we know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, but still, even if we went, no matter which way we went, the slow way or the really fast way, it's still 250,000 miles away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To the moon, that is.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then there's that 93 million miles to the sun.
		So, I mean, think about it.
		We would have passed the sun on the way to the moon long since.
unidentified		That's right.
		That's right.
		But just something to think about is when you're looking at a moon, actually, when the moon's still up in the day, say you've just say there's a full moon, but you can still see it in daylight, right?
		Just say 12 o'clock in the day, the sun's above the moon, the moon's below the sun, still a full moon, you can still see it in broad daylight, yet the sun should be off behind the moon.
		Then we're still getting the same image of the moon, the same side lit up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But doesn't the moon block the sun?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we call that an eclipse?
unidentified		That's what I just can't work out.
unidentified		I can't justify in my head how our globe is the reason we have the moon changes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		it's like they're in Australia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're not down under, you're just over.
unidentified		Just over, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, Will, thank you for the call.
		I really appreciate it.
		I'm just astounded.
		Thank you very much.
		You know, I really am astounded.
		I mean, isn't it a thing in itself that people believe as they do?
		Isn't it absolutely astounding to listen to this?
		And these are otherwise, it would seem, pretty bright people.
		Jordan on Skype, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, probably when.
		Jordan, you're breaking up on me, buddy.
		Is it better now?
		A little.
		Sorry, I got you on Skype here.
		Is it better?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is better.
		Yes.
		Go ahead.
		Let's see if we can do it.
unidentified		Well, one thing I wanted to say is I'm not debating whether we landed on the moon or not, but I kind of go with the theory of where we went there, but we ended up finding something.
		We ended up taking stuff back.
		And I think that, yeah, we ended up, I don't know if we took rocks back.
		You know, they might be alive.
		That was just a joke.
		But I also want to hit on one more thing.
		I wanted to tell you one thing that I listened back in the day when you had the pilot on the phone, and he had captured a giant with the military.
		And he was transporting a giant.
		I just wanted to see if you could touch basis on that and kind of recreate that moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure what moment you're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We had a pilot on the show who flew into Area 51, but I don't remember a pilot with a giant.
unidentified		Maybe it was the Area 51 one, and then you had lost connection with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, uh-huh.
		That's right.
		That's exactly right.
		That was even put into a song by Tool.
		I mean, it's legend at this point.
unidentified		I just said, you know, I'm a young buck.
unidentified		What do you say?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's nothing to say.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		It was just astounding radio.
		What happened to him?
		I don't know.
		I'm sorry.
		I haven't heard.
		Overseas, somewhere, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, how's it going tonight?
		Thanks for having the debate.
		I love the subject.
		My name is Ernest.
		I am a flat earther.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another one.
		Ernest, welcome to the program.
		Where are you, Ernest?
unidentified		Well, right now I'm in the Boston area.
unidentified		I just want to say I make more money probably than most of your cars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ernest, this is our overseas line, buddy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So no matter how much money you make, if you're in Boston, you can't call on this line.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
unidentified		you don't post where the call and information is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you give me the Okay, thanks.
		All right, thank you.
		Thank you very much.
		And call me over there and we'll talk.
		That line is restricted for people outside of North America.
		That means America and Canada in this case.
		So if you're outside America and Canada, it's Skype at M-I-T-D55.
		M-I-T-D55.
		Let's go then where?
		I don't know.
		Let's try Chris on Skype.
		Hello, Chris.
		I think I tried Chris on Skype.
		Did I do it wrong?
		No, I didn't.
		Chris, are you there?
		Apparently not.
		Well, let me try it once more.
		Is this Chris?
		Hello, Chris.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we'll hold while you turn off your radio.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're rustling around, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold good and still for me.
unidentified		Hello, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, go right ahead, Chris.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And turn off your radio, please.
unidentified		It is off.
		Okay.
		So I'm talking to Art Bell.
		You are.
		Oh, my God.
		I'm so glad you're back, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		It's been a long haul, but we've all been waiting, and we're thrilled you're back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		So I did, I just wanted to thank you also for bringing the GIS people back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yet to come.
unidentified		On the 20th, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
unidentified		I'm looking forward to that.
		I hope they have some nice new juicy EVPs for us all.
		I hope.
		Yeah, they kind of, that show sort of launched myself and my wife into our little amateur ghost hunting and had a couple things.
		Finally got to feel what it's like to have the hair on the back of your neck come up.
		And I was doing an investigation in Fairfax, an old building, well, several.
		One was a tuberculosis hospital and a refugee camp for 1906 earthquake victims.
		And nothing really significant happened that we felt or saw.
		But the last night was pretty strange.
		Retrieving my camera at 2 a.m. in the morning in a dark bathroom, I go to reach for my tripod and I hear like you stumbled over someone in an alley or something and no one there.
		Quite startling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you have any proof?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Photographic, audio?
unidentified		I got one apparition image that came after what we thought we heard, a woman's voice, and we got what looked like a shooting star on a video camera in the house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, if I give you an address, can you email that to me?
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here it is.
		Artbell at artbell.com.
		And this goes for everybody.
		That's my email address.
		If you want to get a photograph to me, then artbell at artbell.com.
		If you want to get somebody on the show, don't email me.
		Email my producer.
		That would be producer at artbell.com.
		And I give these out so that I don't have to do it all the time.
		Otherwise, you know, I have to keep emailing people back who are suggesting people.
		And I appreciate that.
		Really, truly, I do.
		Whenever you can suggest somebody for the show, happy to have them on.
		But please, by all means, send it to producer at artbell.com.
		And let's go to Joshua somewhere.
		Hi, Joshua.
		Hi, Israel.
		I beg pardon?
unidentified		I'm in Israel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're in Israel?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, you're my first caller from Israel, Joshua.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome.
unidentified		Yeah, so I was just wondering about this whole flat earth thing.
		I've traveled a lot.
		I'm born in the United States.
		One time I flew to Israel, I threw a very northernly, very northerly route.
		It was the middle of summer.
		I was looking out the window and I was seeing snow.
		And another time, it took a more equatorial route with a couple stopovers.
		And I don't see how going all of these different directions would make sense if the Earth wasn't round.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tried to point that out to John.
		And, you know, I boiled it down to mileage.
		You can shorten up the trip in actual measurable miles by doing the circle route, right?
		That means it's a big ball.
unidentified		Right.
		Has anybody ever, you know, offered to fund a flat earth conference, maybe in the lounge area of a 747 while it flew around the world?
		Let them actually see it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so, but it's not a half-bad idea.
unidentified		They seem like intelligent, very scientifically minded people who just doubt the evidence they see in books.
unidentified		Maybe if we get them all on a plane, give them their own compasses so they don't have to trust the equipment in the cockpit, and drive it in one direction until it can land at the same place it took off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but Joshua, they have to throw away so much.
		I mean, so much has to be fake for what they believe to be true.
		Our sun has to be 3,000 miles up for what they believe to be true.
		And you're right.
		I mean, they sound intelligent otherwise.
		And so it's a mystery to me.
		It's honestly a mystery.
unidentified		I think, and it seems that there are a lot of Flat Earthers listening this morning.
		I suggest that one of them who's willing to go on out a limb, try to crowdfund a meeting of the Flat Earth Society and actually publish the results, do this, try this, see if they fly around the world or see if they find the edge, because I'm sure the rest of the scientific community would be very, very interested in a well-documented discovery of the edge of the world.
		We'd all love to see that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess I don't want to stand right there, but yeah, I'd like to see it.
unidentified		Yeah, thank you for having me, Honor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Joshua, thank you for calling.
		Israel, that's the first call from Israel.
		And again, outside North America, it's M-I-T-D-55, M-I-T-D-55.
unidentified		Let's try the phones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Foley, Alabama.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, this is Rex, Art.
unidentified		Hey, glad to find you back again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		I'm glad you found.
		How did you find me, actually?
unidentified		Well, I'll tell you, I was scanning my shortwave radio doing a third shift, and I said, this can't be true.
		And I listened to the program.
		I became so overwhelmed with emotion when I realized it was you, streetlights began to flicker on and off around me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was incredible.
		That's a great way to have found me.
		And we are on shortwave, like, I think, two or three different stations.
		So you could find us around the dial.
		And the funny thing about shortwave is so many of the countries that used to broadcast shortwave have stopped because of the cost involved and other reasons that there's not much on shortwave worth listening to anymore.
		So I guess we sort of stand out.
unidentified		You do.
		And like I said, I felt like I found a Wash brother, and I want to thank you for coming back on the airways.
		I have a bit of scientific, intriguing information that you may find innovative.
		Our solar technology right now, even on the spacecraft, the most advanced solar technology, it's still not up in the upper percentage of efficiency, and especially the stuff you put on the roof of your house.
		But what if you could create a 100% efficient photoelectric cell that would actually produce a kilowatt of electricity over one square meter?
		The only way to do that art is to embed or embody alpha or beta particle in a selenium to cause the photoelectrons being thrown off to do that at a faster rate.
		And if you could create a 100% efficient photocell, then that could accompany your spaceflight.
		So even if you're out there away, even in the Oort cloud, you're going to be able to power your spacecraft.
		Now, there's a doctor that worked at Los Alamos.
		And I won't mention his name, but he's from Dallas.
		He's no longer with us.
		He's the one who came up with these calculations about this 100% efficient photocell.
		And if you could do that, and he also introduced an intriguing method of traveling through the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, one thing at a time.
		If you could produce such a solar device, you would be rich beyond belief.
		The Arabs would be after you.
		You'd be in all kinds of trouble with even the oil companies here.
		Yeah, I am right.
		So if you've got something like that, you know, buy a gun.
unidentified		Well, that brings me to a very paranoid feeling.
unidentified		And I have these equations in front of me right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I'm sorry.
		We don't have time for the equations, But feel free to email them to me.
		Be happy to take a look.
unidentified		In the meantime, buy a gun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you've really got that, they're going to get you.
		From the high desert, the great American Southwest.
		This is Midnight in the Desert, rocking in the nighttime and taking over.
unidentified		Midnight in the Desert.
		Midnight in the Desert.
		I can see my back in the seven.
		In a room where you do what you don't confess Someday you better take care If I find you've been creeping around my backstitch Someday you better take care If I find you've been creeping around my backstitch Midnight Matters are best handled by those that understand how to move in the darkness like Art Bell.
		To call the show, please dial 1-952-CALLARTS.
		That's 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After I saw that thing, I moved in the darkness.
		All right.
		Gring back to my last experience.
		Listen, everybody, if you want us on a radio station in your area, we're not adverse to it, even though this show is designed to be an internet radio program.
		It plays just fine on radio stations, and we keep welcoming new ones.
		So what you would do is call a station in your area, preferably one that doesn't carry, you know, the other one, that other show, and tell them you would like to get on and prove to them that they can actually be number one.
		Let us go to Michelle.
		I think it's Michelle.
		Where are you, Michelle?
unidentified		Hi, Amart.
unidentified		I'm in Japan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're in Japan?
		I'm sorry.
		Where in Japan?
unidentified		My signal's not very good because I'm at work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's okay.
		I hear you fine.
		I would say Ohio Gazaimus.
		What part of Japan, Michelle?
unidentified		Shizo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, welcome.
unidentified		Near Fuji.
		Right.
		So, gosh, it's great to hear you again.
		I've been dying to hear radio like that again.
		It's summer, so I don't have anything to do at my job.
		So I tuned in the first time I've gotten to tune into you again.
		And man, that was the sum interview, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're here every night, Monday through Friday, here in the U.S. Great.
unidentified		So the thing is, when I came to Japan, we did the circle thing you're talking about.
unidentified		I mean, we went way up north and then back down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, yeah.
unidentified		And I could see it all because I had the window seat.
		And I just, I can't.
		I mean, I get that you can make that kind of a theory, but there's so much evidence that he just didn't want to listen to.
		And that's what bothered me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, what bothered me, Michelle, honestly, is that both of these guys that we've had now sounded like otherwise, frankly, bright people sort of inexplicably going down this wrong highway.
unidentified		I've been on the internet and on social media for so long that that kind of stuff doesn't faze me anymore.
		There is no dearth of people out there who will get something in their head, and no matter how intelligent they are, they will refuse to change what it is they believe and will just completely discount.
		You can see it everywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but even up against absolute scientific fact.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, John.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying.
unidentified		Welcome to humanity, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in a sense, that was Radio Gold because never has an academic like that man sustained 90 minutes of what he did.
unidentified		That's true.
unidentified		I have to give him a massive amount of credit for actually sitting there and being willing to keep that going for that long and not just lose it and give up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, are you worried about Fuji blowing up?
unidentified		No, not really.
unidentified		It's kind of one of those things that's in the back of my mind, but it's, you know, I'm about, I don't know, 30 miles away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you must see it real well.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, you can see it right out the window here where I'm at.
		It's got some gorgeous pictures.
		I know I email you one of the pictures I took from my apartment one day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would love it.
unidentified		I will do that.
unidentified		I will send that to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm so glad you found it.
unidentified		It's great to hear you again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, I am curious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you find us all the way over in Japan?
unidentified		Actually, I clicked on a link on Facebook about something today, and then it showed me one of those related article things about you starting up this new show, and I immediately freaked out because I listened to you online with old shows and stuff all the time, constantly.
unidentified		But hearing something new, I was like, well, immediately tell me what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do me a friend and do me a favor and tell your friends.
unidentified		I will definitely do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'd be like doing me a friend.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very, very much for calling and take care.
unidentified		All the way from Japan, wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		It's hard to know where to go, but Scott is my guy, and that's where I'm going.
		Scott, hi.
unidentified		Hello, Scott.
		Yes.
		Hey, this is Don.
		Actually, I'm using Scott's computer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you asked Scott for permission, right?
unidentified		Yeah, yeah, he's what I'm using.
		He's a Skype right now.
		We're both listening to you on this flat earth thing tonight, and I just wanted to put my two cents in on this.
		I did a lot of sort of, I guess, just YouTube investigations, what you call it, just sitting around watching YouTube videos about this flat earth thing a couple of months ago.
		And what this really seems like to me and to a few other people that agreed in comments was this is a psyop thing.
		This is something designed to muddy the waters to get people thinking in a certain way, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Toward what end?
unidentified		I don't really know.
		That's what's interesting.
		I think the question should be, not is the earth flat, but why are you telling us the earth is flat and who's paying you to do it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, so you see what I mean?
		Well, kind of, yes.
		But again, to what end could you even imagine?
unidentified		Well, looking deeper on the wiki page of modern flat earth societies, all of this is really based on a couple of verses from the Bible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		I don't know specifically which one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you paraphrase?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Basically, that wiki page again, but I wonder where in the Bible it leads us toward believing that.
unidentified		Well, what it leads me to believe is this is like a creationist agenda that they're trying to push.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you might be on to something there.
unidentified		You see what I'm saying?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You might be onto something there.
		A lot of creationists believe the earth is very young and that man has only been here for actually 6,500 years.
		That's right, that's right.
		And that might fit in with the sun only being, what, 3,000 miles away?
unidentified		Right.
		And they talk about, I think the other nine points that John didn't get to tonight, some of those points were the idea of the firmament above, being an ice dome above us, the idea of Antarctica being surrounding all of the continents, and that Admiral Byrd could never get past, you know, these certain points in Antarctica.
		And there's all these mysteries about Antarctica and what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There were more points.
		You're right.
		We didn't get to all of those.
unidentified		And a lot of it seems compelling, but the whole thing, it just seems like this creationist agenda, like they're trying to push for whatever reason.
unidentified		And it seems like a disinformation thing to muddy the waters for other, you know, to throw it in the bucket with other sort of fringe ideas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the only place where they almost had me was the airplane going one direction and the airplane going the other direction.
unidentified		All right, that's a good one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had to think about that a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm still not sure.
unidentified		I'm going to go from continent to continent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm still not sure about that one.
		Otherwise, no, I didn't buy any of it.
		That one I'm going to have to give a little thought.
		It seemed like that might have made a little sense to me.
		But, I mean, after all, the Earth is turning in one direction, the plane going in the other direction.
unidentified		Oh, there was another point about, like, you couldn't fly a plane, you couldn't get a flight from, say, South America to South Africa or from South Africa to Australia.
		You would always have to go to the northern hemisphere and connect somewhere in the northern hemisphere, like Dubai or in the UK, and then fly to your location in the southern hemisphere.
		And then if you looked at it on the flat Earth map, it would make sense because it would go in a straight line.
		But on the spherical map on the globe, it has to sort of go zigzag up and down up to the northern hemisphere.
		And that seemed a bit odd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		But just a few more things I thought I'd throw in there for conversation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, I appreciate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what damage could you possibly do throwing anything in what we did tonight?
unidentified		Yeah, it was really fun tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I've got to go.
		I'm at a break.
		We'll be back.
		This is midnight in the desert.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		And he could say Mom.
		It's hard in every mind.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		For Dark Matter News, I'm Leo Ashcraft.
		Southeast Asia braces for what could be a devastating blow from the super typhoon.
		Food, water, cots, generators, and other federal emergency supplies were rushed Tuesday from Hawaii and Guam to help Saipan after Typhoon Sudler blasted the tiny U.S. island in the western Pacific.
		After hitting the island, the typhoon strengthened into the Earth's most powerful storm of 2015, equivalent to a Category 5 hurricane with sustained winds of 180 miles per hour, as it continued Monday across the Pacific Ocean.
		By Tuesday evening, the typhoon was downgraded from a super typhoon with winds around 130 miles an hour and gusts of 161, which is equal to a Category 4 storm.
		The typhoon was taking aim at Taiwan, China, and some of Japan's southern islands.
		Be prepared to grab a lawn chair or a warm blanket and look up.
		It's time for the best meteor shower of the year.
		The Perseids are the year's most popular and anticipated shower due to two factors, the warm weather and abundance of meteors that streak across the sky.
		Meteor showers occur as Earth passes through the dust left over from a passing comet.
		In this case, Earth is passing through particles left over from comet SwiftTuttle.
		The small particles then enter Earth's atmosphere and come in around 59 kilometers an hour and then quickly burn up in our atmosphere, creating a shooting star.
		The best part of this year is that it's almost a new moon, so even faint meteors will be visible.
		The Perseids are active from July 13th through August 26th.
		They peak on the night of August 12th through the 13th, with as many as 100 meteors an hour being visible from dark locations.
		This is Dark Matter News.
unidentified		I'll be back in time.
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		If you've ever dreamed of cruising around town on a floating skateboard like Marty McCline does in the classic 80s Flick Back to the Future Part 2, then you could soon be in luck.
		A pair of innovators is trying to make the futuristic fantasy of riding a hoverboard into a reality.
		Husband and wife design team Jill and Greg Henderson launched a Kickstarter campaign for their Hindo hoverboard, a levitating skateboard that could hit hover parks as early as October of this year.
unidentified		Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, stop!
		Little girl!
		Little girl!
		Stop!
		Look!
		I need to borrow your hoverboard!
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		The Kickstarter campaign, which ended in December of last year, was a resounding success.
		It brought in well over its initial goal of $250,000 in its first week.
		And before the campaign ended, the project had already raised nearly $500,000.
		But with all this hype, there comes an important question.
		How in the world does this thing work?
		The basic premise behind the technology is something called magnetic field architecture.
		MFA is Henderson's term for what others may call magnetic levitation, or maglev, which is already used to power superfast hovering trains in Japan, China, and South Korea.
		These trains use magnets to create lift and thrust, and can travel at blistering paces because there is no friction between the train's wheels and the axles and the rails.
		But the technology behind the Hindo hoverboard is different from other applications of maglev.
		The most obvious difference is that unlike a train, the board doesn't follow a track.
		Instead, it hovers freely on top of a surface plated in copper.
unidentified		Don't force no work on water!
unidentified		Unless you've got power!
leo ashcraft ▲ ● ▼		But it could also be made to hover over aluminum, as well as a variety of non-metal materials that are also inductors.
		The technology behind the hoverboard is also offered in a scaled-back form as the White Box Developer Kit, which is simply a box equipped with the company's signature hover engines.
		For a look at these new futuristic hoverboards in action, visit darkmatternews.com.
		I'm Leo Ashcraft for Dark Matter News.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Screaming Lady.
		Remember the Screaming Lady commercial?
		People went berserk over the Screaming Lady commercial.
		Oh my God, I'm going to cancel.
unidentified		How can you have that on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I got email after email after email.
		You wouldn't believe it.
		And so they rotated, and the Screaming Lady came out.
		A day or two passed.
		And then I'm inundated with zillions of emails.
		Oh, I missed the Screaming Lady.
		What happened to the Screaming Lady?
		Duncan in New Zealand says, by wormhole, I agree.
		This is all a psyop with a mass awakening of people occurring.
		It's just a distraction to stop us looking out into the universe.
		Frankly, citing business reasons for his anonymity raises some serious red flags with me.
		Well, I understood it.
		I understood the reason for his not wanting to reveal his real name.
		Would you?
		I mean, he had solid business reasons, I guess.
		Steve on Skype somewhere.
		Hi, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing pretty well, Steve.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get good and close to where the microphone is on your computer because you sound like you're in a hollow room.
unidentified		Okay, I'm calling from Germany.
		I'm ex-military.
		I was working, used to work on the Persian missiles and stayed over here.
		Well, I've been listening to your program today.
		It was really great.
		This flat earth thing, you know, I never ever thought the world could be flat.
		But I also was watching some of these YouTube videos about the flat earth.
		And they got some pretty interesting facts that make you go, hmm, could it be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of those, okay, you watched.
		I know there are YouTube videos.
		What is it that impressed you?
unidentified		Well, what impressed me the most is what, I think it was a lighthouse.
		There was a few videos.
		It was a lighthouse.
		And they went a few miles away, and they were trying to say, well, if the Earth is really round, a curvature, you shouldn't be able to see the lighthouse anymore at this distance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Crystal Lighthouse sticks out or up, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I guess as you went further and further, more and more of the lighthouse would disappear until finally even the blinking light up top would be gone.
unidentified		Right, exactly.
		But it wasn't.
		It was straight on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean the lighthouse stayed in full view no matter how far you went?
unidentified		It stayed in full view.
		And that was the thing that was really impressive to me.
		Well, it's impressive, but it's impossible.
		Yeah, but, you know, I don't want to believe it.
		I really don't.
		But I don't know.
		Have you yourself looked at any of these YouTube videos on plateau?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I have, yes.
		And a few of their arguments are kind of interesting.
		I think I mentioned the airplane, right?
		The one you made before.
		That still is grabbing me a little bit.
		But the amount of stuff that has to be fake and wrong for it to be true, I mean, the sun's 3,000 miles away?
unidentified		Really?
		No, no, exactly.
		Yeah, I know.
		It's not possible, but it's just some things that are really that you scratch your head.
		Yeah, it would be nice if you do another show about this flat earth thing.
		And it's good to hear you back on the air.
		I don't want to waste anybody's time with a more important call than mine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, just out of curiosity, though, if you don't mind, how did you hear about us?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why are you in Germany?
unidentified		Well, I used to be in the Army.
unidentified		I worked on the Pershing Missiles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I stayed over here.
		You know, I met a girl and fell in love.
		And I've been listening to Dark Matter for a long time.
		And I used to listen to, what's her name, Kerry Cassadine on Project Camelot and Stephen Greer.
		I'm really into it.
		I've been following this stuff on UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man, I cannot wait to have Stephen Greer on again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you hear the statement I played that Steve Greer made?
unidentified		No, what was it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you didn't?
unidentified		No, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seriously?
		You know what?
		Stay right where you are.
		I'm Going to turn you down a little bit and I'm going to play something here that I want you to hear.
		So let's see, you're in Germany, right?
		But I've got somebody else over here.
		Hold on in Germany.
		Adam, hello.
unidentified		Hey, I feel like I'm in a time machine listening to your show.
		It goes so quick.
		You've got such an interesting and diverse number of guests on there.
		I wanted to say that I was lucky enough in my work industry to have access to press passes to get into the STS-2 or Space Shuttle launch site.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I was an audio enthusiast.
		And at the STS-2 launch, I was able to bring in a pair of Electro Voice RE15 mics and a little Makamichi battery-operated deck.
		I have this great recording of STS-2 launch.
		When the thing does the roll, you know, it clears the launch tower.
		Oh, yeah.
		You can hear the fire crackling out of the engines.
		And now that you've got this great streaming stereo platform, if you'd like, I would be happy to send you a non-compressed copy of that to do with what you build.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would love it.
		I would love it.
		Send it to artbell at artbell.com.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Any file size limitation on the email server?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think if it's, how big is it, do you know?
unidentified		Well, if I send it at like 96 kilobits, whatever that 2496 stream is, I think it'd probably be about 12 to 15 megabits.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That might be pushing it.
		I'd be happier if it was slightly under 10.
		I'm not sure what limits, if anything, I've got on, but I think it might be around 10.
unidentified		I'll squeeze it in under that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Give it a shot, would you?
		You got it.
		And I'll play it.
		Yes, and you're right in stereo.
		Look, everybody do me a favor.
		Tomorrow, Bob Crane has these amazing earbuds.
		When I say amazing, I really mean amazing.
		I don't know what they're made out of at the end, but they conform to your ear.
		And when you plug in earbuds to your, you know, I don't know what, your phone or your iPad or whatever, it's like you came into a new universe with this program.
		It'll sound so good.
		They're like $9.95, which I think cheats Bob Crane.
		Call him in the morning.
		Tell them Art Bell told you to call.
		Get a pair of those on the way, and then you can review them on the air for me.
		They're amazing.
		Call him at 1-800-522-8863.
		I've done those commercials for years, so I actually know his number.
		1-800-522-8863.
		All right, now, let me see.
		I'm going to have to manipulate a little bit here, and I'm going to have to clear that, and I'm going to have to bring up the statement by Dr. Greer.
		This is astounding to you.
dr steven greer ▲ ● ▼		Now, I'm going to say something here, because this is enough years after it happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stephen Greer.
dr steven greer ▲ ● ▼		A few years ago, there was a show called Coast to Coast with Art Bell.
		And it was on the cover of Time magazine, and I was one of his favorite guests.
		And when I'd be on that show, it really lit things up at certain agencies.
		And one time I was on his show a few years back, towards the end of his career there, and this issue came up, and I said, well, you know, I have a source high up in SETI that confirms to me that they, in fact, have received interplanetary signals, but in a kind of phased, not normal array.
		It was kind of a pulsed array, and that it was kept secret and covered up.
		And the SETI people were furious.
		Subsequently, Seth Shostik got on the show and just said, well, Dr. Ver knows what he's talking about.
		He probably talked to some volunteer computer operator because we have all this network of volunteers.
		What Art Bell didn't know and what Seth Shostik didn't know, which I'm going to say now because it's enough water gone under the bridge, is that the guy who told me that was the founder of the SETI project and the Drake equation, Dr. Drake.
unidentified		He told me that, that they had had that contact.
dr steven greer ▲ ● ▼		Moreover, a man who had been one of Carl Sagan's best friends, with best men at his wedding, confirmed it.
dr steven greer ▲ ● ▼		And he had been present when the wow signal came in at Harvard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so back to Steve in Germany.
unidentified		Yeah, Arthur, listen, you know, Stephen Greer, he's a good guy, but after this serious movie documentary he made, he's, you know, I don't trust him anymore.
unidentified		He's looking a little more and more shady to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not to me.
		I've always trusted him.
		And you know what?
		That statement he just made, and he's going to be on the show.
		And believe me, trust me, when I tell you we're going to have him explain that, and then we're going to have Seth Shostak on, because what he essentially just said is we haven't been told the truth.
		We've had contact.
		I mean, that's what the man just said.
		We've had contact.
unidentified		Well, I believe that.
unidentified		I think everybody believes that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, everybody doesn't believe that.
		We've had Seth on a million times, asked him about contact, and, of course, he has said that, yeah, we have the wow signal.
		But Greer was talking about real contact and the fact that it's not known.
		And so if we've actually had contact, that's big, big news.
unidentified		Well, yeah, of course that's big news.
unidentified		Are you talking about that the government has had contact or that city has had contact?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that CETI had contact.
		And apparently we didn't know about it.
		So I'm telling you, that's a blockbuster, if true.
		Listen, I've got to run, but thank you for the calling.
unidentified		When is he coming back?
unidentified		When is this show going to happen?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		He's on our...
		We can't talk about our guests for some reason.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Thanks for hearing me out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're very welcome.
		Happy to do it.
		Okay.
		Who is JP?
		I guess that's right.
		Is that correct?
		JP?
		No?
		Too bad.
		All right.
		JP, you would have been on the air, but I guess you're not going to be unless you're there.
		One last try.
		Are you there?
		Nope.
		Okay, no problem.
		Let's go to Pat.
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		This is Pat, also known as Magical Chet.
		Okay.
		I'm calling on behalf of the good people at Pound DM Talk Group on the social media platform Twitter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes.
		And I'd like to give a shout-out to Skinny President.
		The only shout-out that she'll let me give.
		My question is, when will you play one Velvet Morning?
		Because we're all waiting.
		I'll take my answer off the air.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		No problem.
		Probably never.
		Well, that's not true.
		I won't say never.
		We have a restriction against playing tunes prior to 1972 unless they have been remastered.
		So that's the deal.
		So I don't want to say never because they are actually in talks so that the people who have songs that are prior to 1972 can be played and can be paid for.
		But right now there's no mechanism to pay for them.
		So we're stuck.
		I'm sorry.
		There's nothing we can do.
		Hopefully, the talks are underway right now.
		They'll get it straightened out.
		And then as we can play current commercial music post-72, soon we'll be able to play the stuff prior to 72.
		I hope that kind of answers your question.
		Let's go to Charlotte something or another.
		Hello on the phone.
unidentified		Hello, it's Calvin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Charlottetown, is that it?
unidentified		Yeah, it's Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nova Scotia, okay?
unidentified		Prince Edward Island, actually.
unidentified		It shows up Nova Scotia in the caller ID.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does, yes.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, proceed.
unidentified		Proceed.
		Okay.
		Yeah, I just wanted to say that about John there.
		You know, like, he doesn't seem to sound too much older or younger than I am.
		I just wanted to say, like, you know, it's kind of like almost depressing that, you know, we're supposed to be the progressive generation here, and, you know, we still got people hung up on whether or not the earth is flat, which has been disproven, you know, thousands of years ago.
		It's just kind of a bleak thing to think about, and I'm not sure why anybody would ever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think what made me feel bleak about it was that John otherwise sounded very bright.
unidentified		No, absolutely, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's very concerning to me that he could go down a trail that a bright person shouldn't be able to go down.
unidentified		No, it's kind of sad almost, and I don't want to belittle the guy because we've both agreed on, you know, he sounds like really smart, but it's just kind of like, I don't know, like, how do you, I don't know, how do you go that way, you know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I'm sorry.
		I just flat, excuse the word, flat don't know.
unidentified		Yeah, no, anyway, you know, that's all I just really wanted to say.
unidentified		I think a lot of other people listening tonight probably think the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you for the call, and I'm sure they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Roy, you're on the air wherever you are.
unidentified		It is I, JC, Webster III.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
unidentified		This is JC?
unidentified		No, 640 and 640.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's not.
		It's not JC.
		It sounded like Jay C, didn't it?
		That's not JC.
		J.C. has not been on his Facebook page in a long time.
		Nothing untoward has occurred to JC.
		Anyway, Kurt, your turn, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		How are you today?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mystified, but here.
unidentified		All right, let me turn this.
unidentified		I should have said I don't hear you double.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You should have said flat, Mr. Fied.
unidentified		Anyway, you know what?
		He said, I'm flattered to be on your show, and I think he was fooling us.
		I just had a sense just in my gut that he knew that.
		How in the world can anybody believe that the Earth is still flat?
		You're going to get in a ship and then you're just going to fall off into wear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think you're wrong because I think he did honestly believe it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry to say.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, yes.
unidentified		I can't believe that anybody in 2015 believed that we're on a flat plane of bubbles.
		When we blow a bubble, it turns to a sphere.
		I think the Lord, with his breath, made the planets.
		So that's a sign that a bubble, a bubble's not flat.
		I don't know.
		Just an idea.
		But I just don't believe that somebody in 2015 believed the Earth flat.
		Are they nuts or what?
		Are they in a cult?
		Or I just don't know.
		I'll let you go.
		You have a good night.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going.
unidentified		Bye-bye now.
		Yep.
		Bye-bye.
		Now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, that's Ken.
		Man, where did that program go?
unidentified		Good night in the desert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the name of it.
unidentified		Where did it go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be back tomorrow night.
		Tomorrow night is Bigfoot.
		I'll go that far.
		We'll tell you it's all about Bigfoot.
		One you're not going to want to miss.
		As Midnight in the Desert takes over.
		Listener by listener by listener.
		Good night.
unidentified		When we make it to tomorrow, will the sun shine on you?
		Midnight in the desert.
		I'm a less than you.
		Ooh, a less than me.
		Midnight in the desert, and there's wisdom in the air.
		I've been looking for the answers.
		All my life I found you there as the world we live in.
		Are we healing all the sun?
		Have we lost our intuition?
		Are we running out of time?
		Midnight in the desert.
		And we're listening.
		Ooh, we're listening.
		And we're listening.

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