All Episodes
Previous Next
Oct. 16, 2013 - Art Bell
03:11:05
Dark Matter with Art Bell - Tobias McGriff - James Fox - UFO and Paranormal Research
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Wanna take a ride?
From the high desert and the Great American Southwest, exclusively on Sirius XM Radio, this is Dark Matter with your host, Art Bell.
Now, here's our extraterrestrial radio, baby!
Welcome!
This is Dark Matter, and I'm Art Bell.
Great to be here.
Lots to do tonight.
First of all, um... Ah, the government.
Good government.
It's probably going to open again here pretty quick if the House votes.
They're trying to pass the kick-the-can bill.
That's what it is, too, the kick-the-can bill.
Kick it down the road so that the government can close again January 15th.
The Treasury Borrowing Authority will end February 7th.
So, kick the can bill.
That's what it should be called, in my opinion.
Kick the can bill.
The whole thing cost us, according to Standard & Poor's, $24 billion.
This horse baloney cost us $24 billion.
Now, what could we do with $24 billion?
$24 billion is a lot of baby food, right?
A lot of something.
So just, you know, jacking around with this cost the United States 24 billion dollars, according to Standard & Poor's.
Idiots.
So, um, where am I with this now?
You might ask.
You might not.
Well, here's kind of where I am.
I actually was considering a return to the Philippines, and I'm still doing that.
You know what I began getting today in email?
Now it could be total baloney.
But it was circulating on the, oh my god, they're going to get us part of the net and put us in FEMA concentration camps.
You know, but circulating today were things saying that people wanting to send wires outside of the United States might be out of luck in certain banks.
And you know, this could be right up there with the FEMA camps.
But it is my opinion, and it's just me.
But if this happens again, and it's going to happen again, the can is down the road, you can see it shining there in the road, right?
So it's going to happen again.
If it happens again, I don't want to be in a position where I've seen it coming, And I didn't act.
And I almost waited that long this time.
I actually contacted my bank in the Philippines, ready to send my money and myself after it.
My family.
I know not everybody has the luxury to be able to do something like that.
I'm a permanent resident of the Philippines, so I do have that luxury.
But if they're going to start freezing accounts, oh baby.
Here's how I look at it.
This is just as straightforward as you can get.
If we hit all this again, just in a few months now, and they were to stop checks to people who collect Social Security, that would be like me.
By the way, JC says I'm a commie double dipper, now that I'm working.
He's on my Facebook page.
If they were to stop Social Security checks, checks to people who are disabled, assistance, checks of all kinds of, you know, money that goes out every month to people who get it every month.
That's about 148 million people.
I want you to think about that.
148 million people not getting the checks they depend on every month to live.
In my opinion, That would lead quite quickly and quite directly to anarchy.
Serious anarchy.
And if you think I'm wrong, you're welcome to tell me so, but, you know, I would act to protect my family in the best way I could.
And I would imagine you would all do that, and I would recommend you do.
Not everybody has that luxury.
There are other things you can do, but I think that would happen.
Again, if they were to stop all the checks that go out to all the people that need it, one way or the other, and probably some of them don't, I think anarchy would be pretty quick, don't you?
Anyway, there you have it.
24 billion dollars of baby food gone, thanks to them.
By the way, would somebody please message me on the wormhole?
If the house does pass this, and if they don't pass it, definitely message me.
The Ghost Photo Contest, and we've got a really, really, really good one, is still on, but it's about to end Sunday at noon.
That's about when Keith generally gets up.
Keith Rowland, my webmaster.
Sunday at noon it ends, so if you've got a ghost photograph, you really should submit it like right now!
Send it to webmaster at artbell.com.
If your photograph is judged, and that'll begin next week, if your photograph is judged, the winner, you get a brand new Sirius XM radio, and you get a one-year subscription.
Can't beat that.
That's quite a bit in a bundle for a ghost picture.
So again, if you have one, who knows, you could be the winner.
Keith really loves posting ghost photographs, I know.
So send them over.
Webmaster at Artbell.com now.
We're also doing ghost stories for Halloween, and if you haven't noticed, this is a pretty ghosty month.
Lots of guests about ghosts.
I wanted it that way.
If you've got a ghost story, then perhaps on Spooky Matters, that's our show on Halloween.
Spooky Matter.
Singular.
Actually, it's singular and plural at the same time, if you think about it.
If you've got a ghost story, send it to me, just a small paragraph, you know, describing a little bit of it, and your phone number, and maybe we'll call you.
So send any ghost stories you want to submit to artbell at artbell dot com.
Artbell at artbell dot com.
I'm really... Oh, one more thing about the website.
Keith informs me they now have bumper stickers in arts parts.
Arts parts?
That's the name of the store on the website.
Bumper stickers, if you want one.
Dark matter bumper stickers.
Pretty cool, actually.
I'm really chafing to experiment with Skype.
As you know I've got it hooked up here and you know I have guests all the time and so I don't know maybe tonight I'll open it for everybody when it comes time to take questions for the guests.
Now the only thing is if you're going to call me with Skype don't first of all don't do it now second of all have a headset you know a headset and a mic or use your iPhone or something and get real close to the phone But I'll probably open it for everybody.
I don't know why I've got all these overseas people listening.
They keep sending me messages like crazy.
I had one just a few minutes ago.
From Taiwan.
Listening to you over here in Taiwan sounds great.
Well, why don't you call me?
When I open a line for the international folks, where are you?
I get messages from Europe, Asia, all over the world.
But then when I open the lines, Okay.
Somebody sent me a graphic earlier.
And it's a well-done graphic, and it's tongue-in-cheek kind of.
And the graphic says, A UFO!
Quick!
Grab the worst camera we own!
Well, that's a dig, of course.
At people who have taken pictures of UFOs, and it really makes me angry.
It's unfair because, in my opinion, 95% of the time there's no camera at all.
Now maybe that's changing in the last few years with cameras on phones, but generally there's no camera around at all.
Certainly that was true for most years that UFOs were about, save the last, you know, a few.
Now we've got them on our hip, right?
So 95% of the time you don't have a camera.
Certainly, when I saw my big sighting, I had no camera.
No camera.
And if I had had one, I don't know that I'd have had the sensibilities to grab it.
Might have.
But I say, 95% of the time, there is no camera.
And you're in shock.
4% of the time, people are in shock, and they do grab their camera, but you know, they're shaken because they're in shock.
And so the picture doesn't come out as well as it might.
Not when you shake.
And then the last 1% of the time, then people grab their camera and it's a good Nikon or something and it's high quality film and fast and everything and they get a perfect picture of a UFO.
And we get a hold of it and put it up and everybody says, oh that's too good Photoshop for sure!
Right?
So there is no winning, no matter how you look at it.
There's no way to win in terms of pictures of UFOs.
And so I understand that, but people are so brutal.
The U.S.
Geological Survey has recorded seven small earthquakes, this was Tuesday, southwest of Lake Shasta.
That's potentially ungood.
The earliest at just before 3 a.m.
Tuesday, about three miles west of Lake Boulevard in Shasta Lake, or about six and a half miles west of Interstate 5.
That's an area you want to keep a close eye on.
And then there was this.
I picked it up from TheAnomalist.com.
Due to an increase in UFO reports over Peru, The government in Peru is relaunching an office it first established back in 2001, but which was inactive recently under the name of the Office of Anomalous Aerial Phenomena Research.
Peru is obviously taking the whole issue very seriously, as is the Air Force, Navy, and Army.
Even the police are all participating in the effort.
It's a step forward in the region and the world, providing a timely and adequate response to Peru's urgent public need, I'm quoting here, regarding the unidentified flying object phenomenon.
What other government do we wish would get on with something like that?
But we have a government that kicks cans!
That's what our government does.
Kicks cans.
All right, we're going to break here, and uh... McGriff cometh.
And more, actually.
It's gonna be a fascinating night, and I'll update you in...
actually, McGriff himself will update you in a moment on that coincidental scheduling conflict.
Alright, Tobias McGriff coming up in just a very few moments.
We'll get all this squared away.
Sirius XM is the single greatest outlet for Dark Matter.
There is no question about it.
In fact, count it up sometime.
Number of commercial minutes versus number of minutes of show.
You'll agree, it's the greatest outlet.
Anyway, there is an occasional need still for terrestrial radio, especially when Mother Nature begins to get riled.
Gosh, there's been a lot of that lately, you know?
Earthquake in the Philippines, pretty big one.
Floods everywhere, hurricanes, typhoons.
The new CC Radio 2E, that's E as in Echo from Sea Crane, is First of all, it's a historic radio.
This radio will pick up AM stations that other radios don't know exist.
I mean, it's awesome.
The circuitry in that thing is... well, it's beyond... way beyond other radios.
Most of them are kind of numb on AM, frankly.
It's got great FM.
It's got the NOAA band so that you'll know if bad weather is coming your way.
And it's got an alert that you can set so that it goes off if bad weather is coming your way or anything else.
Also comes with the 2 meter hand band so you can listen to people like me.
And frequently people like me have more information about what's coming Then the authorities, you know, they just don't sometimes talk about it.
So, if you can hear the hams, you'll know what's going on.
Then, of course, you can listen to even dark matter on it by using a simple patch cord to connect from your Sirius XM receiver directly to the CC Radio 2E.
Because the audio that comes out is just awesome.
So, it's the best radio for AM reception.
Comes with great FM.
Comes with two meters.
Comes with alert.
And yes, it costs some money.
It's a historically wonderful radio.
$159.95.
Give Sea Crane a call right now at 800-522-8863.
That's 800-522-8863.
a call right now at 800-522-8863. That's 800-522-8863. Of course, they're on the web at ccrane.com.
Now, Tobias McGriff.
Tobias studied history, actually, at Oxford University.
He is a historian of all things strange.
He is the founder of the Blue Orb Ghost Tours in Savannah, Georgia.
How about that?
Way down south in Georgia.
An author and filmmaker in the UFO and paranormal genre.
Tobias is currently filming modern hauntings with documents, eyewitness accounts, Evidence of modern supernatural encounters here in America.
Oh, I just got a notification, we'll continue in a moment, that Congress has just kicked the can.
That's right, the House has kicked the can.
I guess the Senate whacked it down the road first, and then Congress kicked the can.
So we're okay until, I don't know, a couple months or so.
Anyway, getting back to Tobias.
That was sort of breaking news.
He was told the story of a rash of UFO sightings in southern Georgia during the late 1960s and early 70s.
It resulted in covert Pentagon investigation.
Really?
Lights over Leary also highlights President Carter's UFO sighting.
You know he had one, right?
In Leary, Georgia.
And the first interview ever granted by fellow eyewitness Fred Hart, who shares new and controversial information about the event.
And he'll be on tonight, also.
Apart from his own projects, he is currently a producer on the upcoming full theatrical release film called 701, which explores the unsolved cases from Project Blue Book, and yes, there were many, and features the writing talent of Tracy Torm from Star Trek and UFO filmmaker James Fox, who I said will be on later.
Out of the blue, I know what I saw.
I love that line and I've used it myself so many times.
I know what I saw.
Tobias McGriff, welcome to Dark Matter.
Thanks, Art.
Thank you for having me.
Oh, you're very welcome.
First thing we need to do is clear up for everybody The, oh gosh, what should I properly call it?
The coincidence, the guest scheduling coincidence that occurred, and so let's do it.
We originally scheduled you, Tobias, to be on with me how long ago?
It's been Thursday, Friday?
Last Thursday or Friday, at least?
No, no, no.
Well, I'm talking about when you actually put it on the website.
Yeah, we'll get to that.
But originally we scheduled you when?
Several weeks.
Weeks ago, right?
Yeah.
Then last Thursday or Friday, I think it was Friday actually, might have been Thursday, we put up our guest list for the coming week.
And then suddenly, to my chagrin, yesterday I found out that the other guys Had suddenly slipped you in, lo and behold, one day before you were to appear here.
And that led to some, I don't know what the right word for it would be, angst, I suppose.
Anyway, we did a little thing on that last night and I had some fun with him, really, that's all it was.
And people misinterpreted what happened.
You got to admit, I mean, scheduling you, you know, that quickly and throwing you in there one day before you're going to be on over here, that that was kind of lame.
But I mean, I know that you've got a publicist and and that's how it happened.
And then you and I spoke, of course, before the show.
But people have been sending you some, I guess, some Hate mail?
Yeah, I got a little bit of that too.
So, no way they should blame it on you, no way.
Yeah, actually, another part of the story is I was originally scheduled to go on Coast to Coast October 22nd.
That's correct.
Right!
This is even more important, folks.
He was originally scheduled for the 22nd, and they called your publicist and really quickly switched you into just the day before we were going to have you.
Is that accurate?
That's accurate, yeah.
When I was listening to the show last night, I caught the intro that you did, and when you used the word coincidence over and over again, the thing that kept coming to my mind was, you know, coincidence is what you have left over when you apply a bad theory.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
You know, over there I'm told there are no coincidences, and yet I'm sure that's how this would be explained or attempted to be explained.
Anyway, I thought it was a lame move, and the fact of the matter is, you had nothing to do with it.
None of this should be directed toward you at all.
If they want to poach guests, then I guess they're going to do it.
But when they do, they're going to hear it from me.
Yeah, it was, on my end, it was very few people.
There were a couple of people that have suggested my parents weren't married when they conceived me.
And a couple of other things.
But you know, I'm a big boy.
I can handle it.
So it's no big deal.
It was an awkward situation for me as well.
When you're in the public light, you've got to have a thick skin.
Yeah, you're not going to get very far if you can't take some hits every now and then.
That's how I feel about it.
And moreover, people wrote to me and said, oh, Art, don't have a war.
I don't have wars.
Don't turn my cheek.
If somebody slaps me on the cheek, well, I slap back.
And that's just the way it is.
I'm not as good a person as I should be.
Well, you know, nobody's perfect, right?
Nobody's perfect.
Well, just the one.
All right.
So anyway, it's great to have you on the program.
And you did say, when I talked to you yesterday, that you were going to hold the best stuff for us, right?
The good stuff.
The good stuff, right.
Well, the good stuff is the best stuff.
Right, right, yeah.
Now, it's also my understanding that you have put up a special website actually for tonight.
Is that really true?
That's absolutely true.
Delivered, yeah.
Signed, sealed, delivered.
Can we tell them what it is now?
Yeah, you want to tell them or do you want me to tell them?
I want you to tell them.
It's Art Bell.
Good stuff dot com.
Good stuff dot com.
All right.
As promised.
Thank you, buddy.
All right.
So when they go to the site, what should they expect?
Well, the first is just a post by me, which they can just skip right on past that if they want to.
But the exciting things that are on here, we have the Art Bell exclusive Lights Over Leary sizzle reel.
And what the folks will have a chance to see is never-before-released footage.
We haven't put it out there.
This has been the stuff that floats around for possible investors, people that we may You know, just give an idea of what the film is about.
The narrator that was shopping for the film, we sent him a copy.
Yeah, so this is stuff that only people, this is not even the trailer.
This is the stuff that people who might be involved in the film would get a chance to see.
So it's really more of a sizzle reel.
Why don't we call it Shock and Awe?
Because it is kind of Shock and Awe, really.
I've already watched it, of course.
Oh, you have?
Great.
Okay, yeah.
And you get to see three people interviewed.
The first one is an ex-police officer, the second one is a fireman, and the last guy, who's kind of the centerpiece of this whole thing, is Fred Hart.
And for anyone that is intimately familiar with Carter's sighting, and the main explanation being that he mistook Venus looking to the West, when you listen to Fred Hart's statements, just the few that we give you, Uh, and when you watch his hands, when you, I mean, he went from being completely calm when we were doing that, that scene, to when he started talking about the event, uh, the cameraman, our DP, Bo Kester, he's got an eye for it.
He, he saw it happening.
Fred started fidgeting with his hands.
He started getting nervous.
And then he said, he says the thing, uh, that he's never wanted to say.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
Well, I was just going to say, Fred says the thing he never wanted to say, and that is, The object was in the east.
Because he's a fan of Jimmy Carter.
He's got respect for him.
But he had to tell it like it is.
And in the sizzle reel, you hear him say, the object came from the east, not the west.
And he's the last guy on the sizzle reel that you'll see.
Okay.
Alright, so when you take credible people like this, and I might add quite a bit older people, who are saying these things, and had a sighting With President Carter, it's got to have a pretty deep meaning.
I mean, you know, by the time you get to that age, you're not out to wow anybody.
You just want to tell it like it is while you can still tell it.
And so it's very meaningful.
And nobody gave me, I mean, everybody gave me a zero chance of getting to talk to Fred Hart.
They said, this guy has been turning down the biggest names out there.
Since the event occurred, no way he's going to talk to you.
And so we drove to Leary and he talked to us.
But it wasn't easy.
It wasn't easy to get him to do it.
Tell me about how you did that.
I mean, when somebody doesn't want to open up about something like this for a lot of reasons, and I understand those reasons, I mean, public ridicule, And on and on and on and on.
How do you talk them into it?
Well, we rolled into Leary.
We didn't call.
We didn't do anything.
It's about four hours from where I'm at in Savannah.
So I rode up there, actually by myself, pulled into Leary.
And if you're not from the South, you may not get this.
Maybe you will.
I don't know.
But when I pulled into town, there's a peanut mill on the right.
And everything happens at the peanut mill.
And I saw three or four guys standing out there, and they were talking, smoking cigarettes, whatever.
And so I pull in, and I know these guys are going to know where Fred Hart's at, because I don't even know where he lives.
And so I pull into the parking lot, and I get out, and I walk up to them, and I say, I know this is going to sound crazy, but I'm here to talk to Fred Hart about a UFO.
And they looked at me as you would expect them to.
And I said, he was with President Carter, right?
And one guy in the group, He said, uh, yeah, Fred lives just right there.
And he turns around and he points to a house next to a water tower.
And he said, but I don't know if he'll talk to you.
And I said, well, uh, do you think one of you guys can maybe give him a call or go with me and let me explain what I want to do?
And so he said, yeah, he pulled his cell phone out, calls him and says, uh, Fred, we've got a guy down here that wants to talk to you.
And apparently Fred must've asked him, you know, what's it about?
And he wants to talk to you about, uh, Carter.
And I couldn't hear what Fred was saying, but it went on for a couple of minutes.
And finally, he says that I can come to his house.
So I get in the car, right over there, and I pull up into the yard.
Fred is waiting for me on the porch.
He looks at me, and the first thing he says to me is, are you from the government?
And I said, no, I'm from Savannah.
And he said...
And he said, you guys have got some good shrimp down there.
I said, yeah, we sure do.
He said, are you from there?
And I said, well, I'm from Alabama, but I live in Savannah.
And he looked me up and down.
He said, come on in.
And he turns around and opens up the screen porch, the door, and we go inside and sit down.
And he tells me that he's not going to interview for anything.
And I begin to talk to him about the importance of the film.
And something he didn't know.
And this is the one thing that even folks like Don Schmidt or the Roswell expert, even he wasn't familiar with the breadth of the sightings in Leary.
And I lay it out for Fred about exactly how big this thing was and just let him know that you're not the only one in this.
And it's also a piece that's going to go into the history books because it involves a president.
And so what I got him to do first was to tell me the story off camera, no pressure, sitting in his living room.
And when we got to the end of it, after about two hours, he finally agrees to do it.
He tried backing out on me two or three different times before we finally got down there.
And when we finally interviewed him and filmed him, I said, is there anything I can do for you for your time?
You know, whatever, you know, because he's on a fixed income.
You know, is there anything I can do for you?
He said, the next time you come through here, bring me some of those shrimp.
So I still owe Fred a bag of shrimp.
But we had to go through several, you know, several phone calls.
He wanted to back out a few times.
And I think, I finally asked him, I said, why did you finally agree to talk about this?
And to your point, he said, because I'm old enough now that I don't give a damn what anybody thinks.
Yes, you do get there.
I'm there now.
I'll just let her rip.
I don't care.
Um, and that does happen with age.
Uh, I guess when you're younger, you think about, oh, I better not do this.
I better not do that or something will happen.
You get to the point where you just don't care.
So, um, I, I, I guess we ought to wait until he gets on and let him explain, um, his own sighting.
What do you think?
Or do you want to, do you want to describe what he saw?
Well, I guess James will be coming on later.
People can look at Fred's testimony through the video, or the sizzle reel that we have up.
But yeah, Fred's take on the whole thing... Would you rather describe it, or James, is what I meant to say?
Oh, well, James is loosely affiliated with this film, but he's intimately involved in 701, so I'd probably be the better one to describe what Fred had to say.
All right, then.
Yeah.
So he says that they, you know, most of the common story is that they're leaving the Lions Club meeting.
And what's really going on is they're actually leaving a lunchroom, a cafeteria, that seconds as a Lions Club meeting place.
And Jimmy Carter, who is not a governor, not a president at the time, is down there to try to draw a drum up members for the Lions Club.
So they've been riding around all afternoon trying to do it.
And Fred said they weren't able to get anybody to join.
So, President Carter says, Jimmy at the time, he says he wanted to go back to the cafeteria because there was a woman in town that was famous for her fried chicken.
So he wants to make sure they get back in time to do that.
So they go back to the cafeteria and they're starting to walk in the door.
Everyone else is already in there.
And they look to the east and they see this large object about two or three miles off the ground.
He says that it was changing colors, it looked to be luminous, not solid, but it moved with the characteristics of a solid.
Which is to say, you know, a liquid will, I guess, slosh around might be the best word to use.
But he said it was moving like a solid, but it was built like a liquid.
It was changing colors.
He said it stayed there for about 10 minutes, which does line up with what President Carter has said throughout the years.
He said, we were transfixed looking at this thing.
And you know, President Carter has said, you know, he's given a couple of different numbers as far as how many people were standing on those steps looking at this object.
And Fred said that there were less than 10.
And they were going in there trying to get people to come out and look at this thing.
And no one came out there to see.
It was just... What?
No one came out there to see.
That's impossible to believe.
I mean, if you run in and say, my God, a UFO!
People move.
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
He said, maybe the fried chicken is that good.
I don't know.
But they ran back in there and no one would come out and look at this thing.
And so they walked off the steps away from the rest of the crowd.
And they're looking at the sky, hangs there 10 minutes total.
And it begins to move away very fast.
And he said, then it dissipates.
It was as if it just lost its form and it was completely gone.
And I said, well, I talked to him about Venus, and he had no idea that the rest of the world... I mean, you're talking about a guy that doesn't even own a computer.
He had no idea that the rest of the world thought the object came from the West.
He had no idea that the rest of the world thought, or had tried to explain it away as Venus.
And so when he heard that, he was almost offended that people were saying that.
He said, I've been living here my whole life, and I know what Venus looks like, and Venus is over there.
And he points to where, you know, Venus would, you know, southwest, you know, western sky, you know, roughly where Venus would be.
And he said, I know east from west.
And he seemed very offended.
And the whole crux of this thing is that now that cafeteria has actually been destroyed.
And the new Leary water tower sits where the cafeteria used to be.
Fred Hart lives literally less than 50 yards away from that water tower, from where the sighting occurred, ever since the sighting happened.
And one of the things that he said that really kind of got me was, and sometimes I go out on my back porch, and I look at the sky, and I wish that I could see it again.
I mean, this is a man that's lived through a lot of seasons, you know, a lot of moons, a lot of venuses.
I mean, this is a guy that's been on that back porch quite a bit, and he's never seen anything like it before or since.
Tobias, you said that they described it as disintegrating.
Kind of disintegrating.
I mean, that's kind of saying it disappeared.
Perhaps it disappeared slowly, but it disappeared.
Yes, that would be an accurate way of what he was really saying, yeah.
And I said, is it fair to say it was making maneuvers?
I was trying not to feed him, but I was also trying to articulate what he was trying to say to me.
Is it fair to say that it was making movements that a traditional aircraft would not be able to do?
And he said, well, the airport's just right over there.
And he said, I've seen aircraft, all kinds of them, fly over this place for 30, 40 years.
And I can tell you, it doesn't look like any aircraft I've ever seen.
You've got to wonder if once Jimmy Carter got into office, you know, presidents really, I know people will argue with me about this, but they can pretty much demand to see whatever they want to see.
And I wonder if Carter, Based on his experience seeing this object that you've just described, did make that demand when he got into office?
Well, you know, he made some pretty bold claims about what he was going to do as far as disclosure was concerned when he got into office.
He sure did.
They weren't maybe as bombastic as what the National Enquirer had reported.
But he did make comments to several credible people, to the Washington Post.
He was adamant about his signing.
He stuck to it.
And he said that if he was to get into office, he would make the information publicly available if it was there to be had.
And it never came to be.
And a lot of people have kind of called him uh... to task on that in fact it was uh...
they were promised uh... hyman if i'm not mistaken uh... he works with the work of the ufo center somewhere in
wisconsin and he actually grant hyman interview
and he asked him point blank he said would you reveal it on a public basis
and carter said yes i would and let me know if you didn't go didn't
well yeah i'm sure that our government i'd our government uh... has information on ufos
they've not released uh...
Lots and lots of information.
That's just my opinion, Tobias, but I think they've got a ton of it.
Well, I tell you, you know, between this film and researching what was going on in Leary and the 701 film, I've had the opportunity to actually get around some of these folks, even military officials and diplomats from South America who are very open, very open about the subject.
You know, in the United States, you have to talk to these guys after they retire.
In South America, you can talk to guys while they're still active duty.
They're very open compared to us.
Absolutely, there is something else going on.
Speaking of James Fox, his father was a very talented interviewer.
He interviewed for Rolling Stone.
He interviewed Stephen Hawking several times.
James used to take care of his dad.
He had MS.
And so he would take him to these interviews, and ultimately, James' dad ended up going with him to interviews.
And James was really trying to get Carter to go on record and make good on his promise.
This is post-presidency.
And President Carter was signing books one day, and James and his father were close to where it was going to be going on.
And so his dad, I never had a chance to meet him, but he sounds like a wonderful guy.
He gets it.
And so they go to the book signing, and his dad is in a wheelchair.
Jimmy Carter, you know, ever the humanitarian, he comes out, he walks over straight to James' dad, shakes his hand, asks him how he's doing.
Extremely, you know, jovial.
And James' father buys, you know, seven or eight books.
And because, you know, President Carter's signing them, so he wants him to have to sign as many books as he will to keep him there, in front of him.
So he waits in line and he gets to the front of the line and President Carter's signing like these seven or eight books.
And James is in the back and actually has a camera on President Carter.
And James's father asked him point-blank about the Leary signing, about UFO disclosure, about coming clean about what they may or may not know.
And James has related to me that it was as if Some sort of trigger went off, and he said that President Carter's face, the countenance, completely changed.
Like, he just glossed over.
He looked around, glossed over, and was completely withdrawn after that statement.
Like, as if he had been trained to have that response.
Well, as if they had given him the talk.
Exactly, yeah.
The talk, for sure.
You're in Georgia, right?
I'm in Georgia, yeah.
I'm in Savannah.
Okay, Tobias, we're going to take a brief break, and this one's for you.
Evil stuff down there.
Look out, everybody.
My guest is Tobias McGriff, and we're talking about some pretty interesting stuff.
How about somebody who was a witness along with President Jimmy Carter?
Now, the website to go to is one Tobias set up on the fly, pretty quickly actually, called ArtbellGoodStuff.com.
I was empty last night.
ArtbellGoodStuff.com.
And this has not been seen before.
I mean, tonight is it.
Tonight is the first time anybody out in the world is seeing it.
Right, Tobias?
That's absolutely correct.
We've never released it publicly.
And, you know, there's other stuff on there as well.
There's a free download of the book for Savannah Shadows, the PDF.
Oh, now that's cool.
You're allowing a free download of your book?
Yeah, we've actually never done that.
We've held the number three, number four spot in the parapsychology section on Amazon for mostly since June, when it came out of last year, June 2012.
It's done very well, and we've never given a free download.
It is a PDF file, but the great thing about the PDF file is it's the original mock-up that was done before it was ever sent to the actual printer.
The person that did the layout for the book is Rebecca Lison.
She's the one who did the Jameson Black label.
She used to be a head designer at Barnes & Noble.
She also did some of the artwork for the Broadway show Wicked, which most people are familiar with.
So it's actually that original mock-up that no one ever gets to see.
It's the stuff that happened before it actually went to the printer, so you get to see the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Wow.
Yeah, so it's a free download.
We have some behind-the-scenes stuff posted there from the 701 shoot, and something that I think maybe the listeners probably would really enjoy is Ann Druffle.
You know, she brought up the Rex Heflin Polaroids from his incident.
She actually brought the originals up there.
Obviously, we took photos of the originals, but you also get to see her showing them to people on set.
She came out, had them wrapped in this very secure plastic, and she was very hesitant to come out with them.
James had to coax her into coming up there.
She's very protective of them, because those photos went missing for almost 30 years.
So, she brings those up there.
You get to see those behind-the-scenes shots.
You also get to see UFO articles.
About two dozen that we dug up on the Leary sightings that set the precedence for it was a rash of sightings.
We had to dig these out by hand.
We had to go to the Albany Herald, other places, and we had to pull these out one at a time.
Going through micro, going through... Now, we did have help From the archivist at the Albany Herald who was invaluable.
But we painstakingly pulled out from 1969 to 1975 all of the sightings that were going on in Georgia.
And a friend of mine who's a researcher here named Mark Eggers, he was the one that kind of turned me on to the Leary sighting.
But it was in doing that that we realized it was a rash of sightings.
And what I think is so interesting Is that we have established, because you know, there's been a great debate about when Carter actually saw the sighting.
In his report, I believe he lists it as October 1969.
We've been able to confirm that it was actually January 6, 1969.
And that means, that means that his sighting was the first in what would then become a rash over three dozen sightings with eight pages. We have eight pages. I mean an
Excel spreadsheet. I mean, you know how many people sit on an Excel spreadsheet.
We have eight pages of witnesses from a five-year rash of sightings and President Carter's
sighting was the first one.
It was the keystone that started all the rest of them.
I don't know if there's anything to that, but I think it's very interesting.
All right, staying on topic of UFOs, you've got an upcoming full theatrical release called 701.
Why?
What does 701 mean?
Well, 701 is the, you know, Project Blue Book obviously is the government's effort to look into UFO sightings.
The two main things they were looking for is to determine if UFOs were a threat to our national security.
And they also wanted to scientifically analyze any data.
Well, they end up collecting about, well, over 12,000 UFO cases.
When they get to the end of this thing, in 17 years, 52 to 69 is when it was discontinued.
So in 17 years, they go through over 12,000 cases.
When they get to the end of that list, they've got 701 cases that they can't put anything to that would explain it away.
And here's the key point.
It's not for a lack of evidence.
The evidence was there to analyze.
But there were still 701 cases that they could not wipe off the books.
Why is that?
I mean, you can say swamp gas 701 times.
You're absolutely right.
You can.
And, you know, most people look at Project Blue Book as a farcical project anyway.
It was never meant to be a serious study into disclosure.
It was more of a smoke screen, if you will.
And, but when they get to the end of this thing, you know, along the way, there were some people that actually, I think, were in it for the right reasons.
And they were not willing to write them off as having any sort of credible explanation.
And you end up with 701 cases that were not closed for various reasons.
So, you know, that's noteworthy.
I mean, for a project that, you know, it was the one that came after Project Grudge and Sign.
And Blue Book was supposed to be the project that was going to set all this thing to rest.
I don't mean to laugh, but it's not going to ever be resting.
Look at what I read at the beginning of the program.
We've got a whole country, Peru now, officially signing on to essentially something much more meaningful than Blue Book.
Where are we?
Yeah, exactly.
And South America also seems to be – Brazil especially.
Basically any place you can go, there is this element of disclosure with a capital D. And what I've heard time and time again throughout the making of the film… Is people, you know, kind of inputting what they think is going to be a result of what's going to happen in the states is, don't look for disclosure with a capital D, look for disclosure with a small d. Explain that.
What do you mean with a small d?
Well, just that the anecdotal stories don't work.
I mean, think about what you said earlier.
It's either too good or it's not good enough.
It gets categorized as anecdotal.
And so what happens is the preponderance of evidence continues to build.
It continues to be more compelling.
And finally, I think that there's going to be this general attitude.
I think it's really almost here where you have a general attitude that people have accepted that, yes, we are being visited by metal craft.
Yes, they're coming from off planet.
What their motivations are, who knows?
But you find more and more and more people willing to accept that that has to be not only a possibility, but a probability.
And so it's not going to happen in one flash moment where everybody comes to this realization that it's commonplace, you know, short of a craft landing on the White House.
And I don't even know if that would do it, to be quite honest.
I'm not sure either.
Everybody would say, oh, Photoshop.
Yeah, I mean, people are so, you know, desensitized to some of the things that, you know, from what we see every day.
So I think people are looking for disclosure with a little d, which is to say there will be this preponderance of evidence that will get stronger and stronger, harder and harder to refute, and then finally you'll have a generation of people growing up just from the very beginning believing that, oh yeah, absolutely, we're being visited by metal craft, for sure.
Okay.
All right.
Now we're going to switch gears because we're kind of short on time in a way.
We are and we're not.
And that is to say we've got somebody yet to bring on.
I want to talk to you a little about the paranormal and I know that you come from a background as an engineer with AT&T and then turned into a full-time researcher in the paranormal and that's pretty crazy.
How do you go from engineer to researcher in the paranormal?
It's unlikely.
Well, I actually went from being extremely interested in the paranormal to having to pay my bills.
And so that's why I ended up an engineer.
So in other words, it was a hobby to begin with.
And then you began to starve to death.
Exactly.
I mean, I took a job as an over the road truck driver just so I could get into these different cities where I could actually research this stuff.
This is when I was much younger.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, driving through the desert at night.
You know, looking out the window or driving through New Orleans and making a stop.
Instead of sleeping, a lot of times I spend my time going to these locations.
I wasn't misusing the company's resources.
I was doing it on my own dime.
But the desire has always been there.
I did this for over a decade, 15 years before I ever started doing anything that might in any shape, form, or fashion Compensate me for it.
It's the thing I would do for free.
And so I went into engineering because I was good at it.
I had a knack for it.
It was during the technology boom in Atlanta.
And so they were hiring mostly just anybody.
And so I got on the ground floor of ADSL Technology, Fast Access Internet, and I helped implement that.
But every time, I was the guy who was using up my vacation time in January.
Because as soon as it rolled around, I was planning these trips.
And going to these places.
And Savannah just always kept calling to me.
I mean, every time I went there, there was something.
You know, something was happening.
All right.
You are in Savannah, of course, as you just mentioned.
And it advertises itself as America's Most Haunted City.
How does the title come from?
Why?
It came from the American Institute of Parapsychology in 2002.
And I think the Ryan Research Center had some input on that as well.
And they were basing it on, you know, field investigations from people that they deem as credible.
They were basing it on reports that were submitted to them by, you know, individuals that were saying that they were having instances of hauntings.
They put Savannah's history up against what is the common theories behind why a place would be haunted.
And they did that with, you know, a dozen cities or more.
The ones you would expect, you know, Salem, Gettysburg, New Orleans, you know, those guys.
And at the end of the day, the American Institute said that Savannah had more of the things that I just listed than any other city.
So you're an investigator in America's most haunted city.
What have you personally seen, Tobias, in the paranormal realm?
I'm sure you've been all over the place, as you just covered for us.
And it's kind of fun to get people's eyewitness testimony.
You've been chasing it.
What did you find?
The most compelling thing that's ever happened to me, and there hasn't been a lot of things, but the most compelling one that's ever happened, happened in Savannah.
And it was when I went down there to do a scouting trip.
I wanted to do some filming and interview some people.
And so I brought a photographer with me and we pulled into Savannah.
It was in January, which is a really good time to go because these, you know, the owners of these inns and bars and places have time to talk to you.
So, we go down there, we schedule some interviews, it's broad daylight, and when we get to Bay Street, which is one of the main streets there, we are waiting on one of the shops to open, and I've got a free map in my hand, so I sit down on a bench, and as I'm sitting there, the photographer wants to go kind of scout the area, and she's about 5'2", maybe 105 pounds, very petite, and she has on this baby blue scarf and this baby blue hat, I guess you'd call it a bowler maybe, very distinctive.
And there were some tunnels right behind us, you know, 40, 50 yards away.
And she's small enough, she could get through the bars of the tunnel.
And she said, I'm going to go check that out if I'm not back in 15 minutes, come and get me.
And I said, OK.
She said, no, I'm serious.
Come and get me if I'm not back in 15 minutes.
So I watch her walk down there, grab her camera, you know, as she's going through the bars, you know, and I see her slink away.
She's gone.
And I'm sitting there looking at the map and a trolley To my left, turns onto bay, and as I'm sitting there watching it go by, I see in my peripheral vision, I see that baby blue bowler from behind a live oak.
And I turn and look, and it's her peeking out about, you know, one quarter of her body, you know, middle of the chest up.
She's looking from behind the live oak, and she's smiling at me.
And, you know, she's a fairly serious kind of stoic person.
You wouldn't really expect her to be doing something like that.
And so I looked at her and I said, what are you doing?
And she, no comment, no expression, just that same smile.
But I've always described the smile as a forgery.
It was obvious that whatever was doing this was something that had never experienced smile muscles.
So it didn't know how to portray it.
So it was a, it was, it was a semblance of a smile.
Right.
And I watched this thing start to lose its ability to hold its form.
And as it started to, when I saw that start to happen, I saw the face, the smile, start to melt.
And she slinks back, almost like a snake, behind the live oak.
And I felt everything around me get cold and electric.
And I'm watching this happen, completely subjected to my experience.
I won't get up off the bench and look behind the live oak.
I mean, this is broad daylight, and I'm sitting there like a scared kid.
And I glanced to my right, and I see her making that same move, coming back through the bars and holding the camera, but she's coming back up towards me.
And when she walks up the hill and looks at me, she said that I am just completely porcelain, just white skin, just, you know, Popeye, basically.
And I'm very subjected to my experience.
I couldn't talk about it with her for a couple of hours.
I couldn't talk about it with the rest of the world for over a year.
And I didn't put it in print.
Until I started blogging and eventually wrote the book.
But I didn't go back to Savannah for almost a year after that.
I completely understand, and I know other people out there, and oh, come on.
These things, when they happen to you, kind of send you into a state of shock.
Yeah.
I've had a couple of them happen.
I'm not going to rehash them, but they do send you into a state of shock.
And so I completely understand that you sort of shut down for a while.
But eventually it works on you and you want to be able to talk about what happened to you.
I was always very comfortable documenting other people's stories.
That's why I was down there.
I wasn't looking for my own stories.
And then this just hit me.
It just came to me.
And this is somebody who is looking for it, wanting it to happen.
I mean, I've had one or two odd things happen before that, but nothing of this magnitude.
And then it just comes up to you.
It didn't happen in a basement of an old house at 2 o'clock in the morning with investigation equipment.
It happens in broad daylight while you're sitting on a bench looking at a free map.
All right.
In all the time you had to dissect what you saw, did you come to sort of any conclusion about what had happened?
I eventually ended up speaking to a gentleman who was part of a voodoo village north of Savannah called Oyotunji.
And I relayed the experience to him in trust because we became friends.
And he told me that I had experienced what is referred to, what we would call, me, what we would call a shapeshifter.
What they call a hag.
And he said the two or three favorite forms of this thing is it'll usually take the form of someone you love or are close to.
Uh, or of a little girl, or of a white cat.
Now, what the logic is behind that, I don't know.
But he said, those are the three things how it usually comes to you.
And I asked him, why does it come to you?
And he said, typically it's because, uh, these things are said to live off the unhappiness of people.
They're psychic vampires of sorts.
And that's where you start moving easily into some of these night attacks with these, you know, black shadow figures, if you will.
And he said, usually it's because they are identifying you as a potential victim or host.
And I didn't reveal this to him.
I've never revealed it to anyone.
But I did have something extremely traumatic that had happened to me a few weeks before I went down there.
And I'm not one to be depressed, but I was in the depths of probably some of the worst depression I've ever been in when I was in Savannah when it happened.
So that really, really struck home with me.
Alright, now reflecting on it, you say your mental condition was not good.
Right.
Is there any possibility that your mental condition had something to do with what you saw?
Or are you absolutely certain what you saw is what it was?
The mind can do some amazing things.
I mean, for the good, for the bad, and for the unexplained.
So, there's no way I can rule out that it wasn't a figure of my imagination.
I mean, I have no proof.
There was no witnesses.
There's no EMF meter.
And it's like I said before, you know, there's no eternal cold spot.
You know, the grass still grows where this thing was.
I mean, there's none of the folklorish things that you're told about that happen after something like this occurs.
So, yeah, I mean, absolutely it could be.
But I mean, I consider myself, you know, generally Well adjusted.
You know, depression is something that happens to everybody from time to time.
To the point of hallucinating, I don't know.
I don't know.
If that is what it was, it's never happened before and it hasn't happened since.
Alright.
In your view, Tobias, when you look at these things that people see, and we call them ghosts or apparitions or Whatever.
How many of them, by percentage, if you can even guess, turn out to be negative or, you know, terrifying?
I mean, anything like that, I guess, is terrifying.
But when I say negative, I mean, I don't know, glowing red eyes has always been really negative for me.
You know, something that gives it a real negative feel.
As far as what gets reported, as far as what gets sold and written about and told, Um, the vast majority of that seems to be negative, but I think that that's really only because that's what sells.
But as far as what happens when you actually talk to people, uh, and people that, you know, will wait till no one's looking or listening and say, you know, well, there was this one time.
And then they'll give you this experience that they had.
Uh, and I would say overwhelmingly, usually those experiences, I would not consider threatening or negative because It usually has something to do with a family member, or a lost loved one, or someone that they're not able to identify, but they regard as a protective element in their life.
Alright, well let's take that last one.
Something they're unable to identify.
I don't care if it would be a nice lady in a shimmery white dress, you know, sort of half materialized in front of me.
I tell you, Tobias, it would scare the hell out of me.
You know, that's not human.
It's something else, and that would be enough to, you know, scare me.
It typically does.
I mean, even people that are confronted with a lost loved one, in their estimation, they are extremely subjected to their experience.
I mean, they usually are met with denial and disbelief that it even happened.
And that's one of the reasons why they don't talk about it, because they don't have that concrete belief that it was real, that they can't accept it.
And so it not only does it, it does something worse than fear in some ways.
It completely subjects you to your experience and makes it so that you can't really adequately
process it.
And that's something we all need is closure.
Everybody wants answers.
We can deal with fear.
Fear comes and goes.
But when you don't have closure, when you don't have answers, when something happens
one time and never happens again, that usually will eat at somebody for their entire life.
Well, I'll give you that. At least they're family.
All right, Devise, hold tight.
We're going to take this opportunity to get James Fox on the line, who will join us as we talk about, well, that stuff.
You know, the other stuff.
From the high desert, the great American Southwest, this is Dark Matter.
I'm Art Bell.
All right, coming up, James Fox, who is a director.
James was born in England.
He was raised in New York in California.
He began his journalism career early in life as an assistant to father writer Charles Fox, a quadriplegic with multiple sclerosis.
Together they traveled on many magazine assignments from Get This Rolling Stone, Car and Driver, to Sports Illustrated, James finished and sold his first documentary to Discovery by the time he was twenty-eight.
He has since completed five films for the likes of Sci-Fi and the History Channel, and has made frequent appearances on Larry King, Nightline, Dateline, Anderson Cooper, and others.
His latest film on UFOs, I Know What I Saw, is being distributed by A&E and Content Films International.
James, welcome to the program and I love the title, I Know What I Saw.
I always, the way you said it, it really, you feel it, you felt it like I feel it and
the people that have these experiences, Art, I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to
have you back on the airwaves.
Thank you.
It is a good title because for the people who really have had a profound sighting, and
I've had one, very profound, that's the only answer.
I damn well know what I saw.
There was no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Um, it was as clear as, well, I don't know, all that's in front of me right now.
It was just, it was.
So, that title, That title came from... I didn't have a title for the movie.
Everyone kept saying, what are you going to call it?
Production went on for about three years.
And I said, when the title comes, I'll know.
And I was in the edit room and I kept hearing these statements by these very credible witnesses.
Look, don't tell me what I saw.
I know what I saw.
And one day I thought, wait a minute, that's a good title.
So I passed it around and everybody seems to really like it.
And especially if you had an experience Then you can relate to it.
Right.
Alright, so the title is 701, right?
How did 701 come into being?
Well, we sort of covered that already.
The 701 sightings, right?
Yes.
That Blue Book couldn't, I guess it's... Is it right to say that Blue Book could not explain?
Yeah, well basically, you know, you've got the vast majority, and we've all been over this one, but we've got the vast majority of UFO cases.
Uh, that can and have been explained down to our conventional terms, then you've got that very stubborn, you know, 5, 10, up to 15% of cases that simply cannot.
And then the Air Force was, you know, having that same difficulty when they started their investigation or their public relations program from 48 to 69 with Project Sign and Grudge.
And eventually leading to Project Blue Book, 12,618 cases investigated, out of which 701 remained unexplained.
And a lot of those cases, like Socorro, New Mexico in 1964, were truly inexplicable.
Very, very compelling, unambiguous encounters.
Alright, we've talked to Tobias a little bit about how he got into this field.
How about you?
How did you get into researching UFOs?
I got into this Art Bell when you kind of started launching your radio show.
What year did you start?
I don't know.
I've been on the air all my life, so this is really a hard question, but I was at KTWN in Las Vegas, and I was doing kind of a political show, and one day I said to myself and everybody else, I'm getting sick to death of this.
I want to talk about something else, and so I had John Lear on as a guest.
He's the son of Bill Lear of Learjet fame.
No, I'm well.
Oh, okay.
And that was the beginning of the end of politics for me.
Now, what year was that?
Because in my life, you catapulted it onto the scene, in my life, in the mid-90s.
Okay.
You know, I've got to go back and research it.
I had been on in the mid-80s, and what date that was, somebody will have to tell me.
I don't remember.
It was, you know, it sort of morphed into it slowly, so there was no exact date when it happened.
When I did that show with John Lear, the reaction was incredible, and I was working at the time for some very, very conservative people who owned that radio station, and when they heard me start talking to John Lear and about UFOs and all the rest of it, They became apoplectic.
I mean, there was just no consoling them.
You just can't do it.
And I went ahead and did it anyway.
Almost got fired.
And so I began slowly integrating more and more of it in.
I would end up, you know, like going to the principal's office, in the boss's office, getting reamed out until The first survey came in, and we were number one by such a large margin that everything else was hardly even mentioned in terms of other radio stations.
That's how popular it was, and you're going to ask me for a date?
It was a rolling affair, so... Well, it was a very exciting time for me, and if it wasn't for a handful of people like yourself, I wouldn't have done what I ended up doing, because that piqued my interest at a time.
It's sort of an influential Time in my life, and I produced, I was very fascinated with your nighttime radio, and I listened to you all the time.
And there was an exciting, very exciting time, you know, it was approaching the 50th anniversary of the Roswell incident.
We had, I remember you had all kinds of exciting whistleblowers coming on board.
It was a really, really exciting time.
And I got involved with, decided to make my first film on the subject of UFOs.
And I remember My father's a mainstream journalist, and him just saying, son, what are you doing?
Like, don't waste your life.
There's nothing to it.
It's a dead-end road.
My God, please reconsider it.
Oh, sounds just like my boss.
You know, back there, sounds just like my boss.
Yeah, and he was saying this to me, and I tell you, I'm a Taurus.
Very stubborn person, and you know, the more resistance I got, the more I said, I'll show you.
You know, and then I had letters from the different family members from abroad, and they were, please reconsider what you're doing.
It's a dead end street.
There's nothing to it.
And I, anyway, long story short, I produced my first documentary called UFOs 50 Years Denial, and I sold it to Discovery Channel.
And I thought that was it for me.
I was really excited.
And, you know, it did fairly well.
And you had me on very, very briefly, I think in 97 or 98 or something right around there.
It was like a 15 minute call in thing.
And you talked a little bit about it.
But in any case, and then I thought I'd never do another UFO film again.
I just thought I could have been there, done that.
And then, I don't know, you want to bore your death with the rest of the details, but I got invited to go to Russia and it sort of, it just sort of escalated from there.
And it kept, and every time I said, I'm not doing another film, I did another film.
And each time it got better, and I got better access to witnesses, and that's how it all came about.
I didn't really have a plan on 20 years later still making documentaries on UFOs, but here we are.
James, why did you go to Russia?
Well, it's funny.
The success of the film, 50 Years of Denial, I got contacted by a guy in Russia.
And he said, hey, we'd really like to broadcast your film in Russia, but we don't have any money.
Can we have it for free?
And I said, well, gosh, I worked really hard on it for about four years.
I'd rather not give it away.
What do you have to offer?
Long story short, he said, boy, I'll tell you what.
I'll fly you out here, and we'll give you access to Cosmonaut Pavel Popovich and General Alexei at Star City Russia, and we'll wind all these interviews up for you.
You can use them for your next movie, and I thought, well, I don't really have a plan for a next movie, but it sounded like a great opportunity.
So I went, and I remember arriving in Moscow, and I didn't even recognize the print.
I mean, you couldn't even recognize, like, you know, I've been over to Europe and stuff, but I couldn't even recognize the print.
I mean, the symbols might have been in another world altogether.
Right.
I'm thinking, well, I really took a gamble on this one, but that guy delivered, and he got us into the Star City, Russia, and we had a small camera crew.
And that was the birth of Out of the Blue.
All right.
Well, you know, of course, we still have Tobias with us, and I guess we're going to get you both in on this at some point, but I do want to ask, with respect to 701, these cases, I would like you to describe as best you can some of the highlights of these 701 cases.
Maybe pick two or three if you can.
Okay.
And by the way, do you have photographs to go with some of them?
Yes.
Yes, and I have government documents.
We have, let's see, well, here's the thing.
One of the things, 701 is more symbolic of what it represents.
It doesn't mean that we're going to go back and rehash all old Blue Book file cases.
We are going to cover some Blue Book cases.
We're covering the 47 wave.
We just interviewed, for the first time ever, Kim Arnold, who's the daughter of kenneth arnold
he never can it or will use tonight june nineteen forty seven citing while piloting a small
plane uh... pretty much launched the modern ufo wave
and um... so we're gonna be covered a little bit of the history of that will cover the fifty two flap
recovering the sixty-fourth accord in mexico case we've uncovered a budget wonderful documents
uh... pertaining to that case and recently the national archive stuff that
we'd never thought we'd get our hands on that we did Very, very exciting.
All originals.
But we're also reaching out because we want, you know, this is a documentary feature film for a theatrical release.
So we'll have very cinematic recreations.
But we wanted to encompass the global nature of this phenomenon.
So we're covering a case in Africa that happened in 1994 in ruins of Babwe.
We're covering a case that happened in 1996 In Virginia.
I'm not familiar, I'm not sure how many of your listeners or anyone here are that familiar with those cases.
So we're doing international cases as well as cases.
Let's get, I'll tell you what, let's get familiar with one.
Take the one that you feel is the most compelling and tell us about it.
Rua Zimbabwe, 1994.
Really?
Yes.
Now tell us about it.
Okay.
There were 200 school children playing on recess.
It was 1030 a.m.
1994 and there was a flash of light that some of the school children saw, ages ranging between 8 and 11 years old.
These are children that all speak perfect English, a lot of which with British accents.
They're white children, black children, all ethnicities, and they see a flash of light in the sky And the next thing you know, there's a, in an adjacent field, there's a, what's described as, I don't think they use the word disc, but it's your quintessential looking flying saucer.
And then beans that are seen.
And there were, there was a, the case was, was, was investigated.
It was kind of catapulted into the limelight with some TV, BBC correspondents and, and Dr. John Mack of Harvard Psychiatrists.
You remember John Mack?
I interviewed John Mackey.
Yes, he showed up I think within a couple of weeks with a camera crew and he documented lots and lots of these school children on camera, their drawings, discussing about the telepathic communication with some of these students, and he was gathering all this data and doing an investigation for, I'm assuming, a documentary film.
Um, and then he was, uh, he was struck down, looked the wrong way in London and got struck down by a taxi cab and died.
Yes.
Um, he left.
Yeah, I know.
So unfortunate.
I don't think there's any foul play.
I think it was just completely looked the wrong way.
But in any case, a lot of the material or most all the material was left with Randall Nickerson.
the mac institute had left this material he's been working on a documentary film
about this particular incident for since two thousand
six i believe two thousand five two thousand six and i had been
uh... i met him at the national press club of that i did with leslie cain back
in two thousand seven and i found out he was working on this case i know that
steven spielberg's been fascinated by this case and i said my gosh you've got a lose archive interviews
rental while the and you know them for this much time
and he said, well, I'm doing this documentary and I'm working on it and I'm tracking down all the witnesses.
You know, there were 200 cool children on the scene.
Everybody thinks it was 62 kids, but it was actually more like 200, because the 62 number came from how many of the kids actually drew drawings of the beans and the craft.
But there were a lot more, and there's so many complexities to the case that people are unaware of.
And there was a BBC correspondent there on the scene, I think, within a day or two.
And then he died, and I have all his footage.
And there were sightings in the area, so it was, like, cooperated by other witnesses in different parts of ruins of Bobway.
And it's a very complex story, and it's going to take some time, and he's doing a full-blown, two-hour documentary film on this thing.
And I said, well, Randall, you know, gosh, I'd really love to be able to, you know, feature some of this stuff as part of a film project I'm working on.
I don't want to step on his toes or anything, but I've been working on this since 2007, and long story short, I finally got him to participate, because it's only going to be one of the many segments in the 701 feature, documentary feature, and so we have managed to get five minutes of the archive interviews, the drawings, and then we just recently, just last week, we flew in four of the witnesses from Australia, Canada, and the UK, Who came in and had, for the first time in 20 years, had a reunion.
And it just so happens, by pure coincidence, that these women, they were 11 years old at the time, we set up a little roundtable for the interview, because I thought wouldn't it be nice to get these women to interact, and I gave them all drawing pads, and now they're 29, 30 years old, to get them for the first time in 20 years to interact with each other, talk about what they'd remembered, It just so happens that the two women on one side of the table, um, Liesel and Emily, happened to be standing next to each other during the encounter.
And the other two women on the other side of the table that we flew in, Emma and, um, um, I'll think of her first name in a second, were standing next to each other during the sighting as well.
And I always assumed through some of the video footage, and there's not a lot of details of this case known, that it was more of a distant, you know, The beings came within arm's reach of some of these witnesses.
So they had this incredible, they talk about the, and this is broad daylight, and there are 200 school children standing in the playground during this time.
I'm with you all the way here, James.
And you said that there was telepathic communication that occurred.
Yes.
Do you know the nature of it?
Yes, the images that were, and having these women now, they could articulate better than when they were really young.
Eleven years old, they were trying to articulate that experience, but it came through.
The communication was all through the eyes of these beings, and the beings were rather small.
Three and a half, four feet tall, which was about the size of the kids at that time.
Yeah, and they gave, they sent images of destruction and that we have to take better care of our environment and the planet.
That was the message was, we're not being good stewards of the planet.
That is so familiar.
It is so familiar.
The guest I had on last night said that.
And it was just, I mean, I've got the goosebumps right now.
I mean, you, we shot interviews in this place in Los Angeles for a whole week.
And there were a lot of other people like, you know, audio guys and stuff in the room at the time and lighting and stuff.
And normally you can hear kind of people whisper a little bit in the background during the interviews.
This, you could hear a pin drop when these women were testing.
They were going on camera and they were interacting with each other and drawing the beings.
I don't even know what they called them.
They never really said aliens.
They didn't know.
I mean, they didn't really have television then.
They didn't have cell phones.
They didn't have... And it's just a fascinating case.
It's a fascinating case.
There was something that happened with the time aspect that it couldn't quite tell if it was 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 3 minutes.
But they said time slowed down.
And that the, looking at these beings, and you could see it in these, there's not a shred of doubt in anyone's mind when you listen to the testimony of these school children and then hear them talk about it now.
One of the women that we flew out from Australia, been married five years, never told her husband about it.
They've been having some of, some of these women have been having dreams.
They don't, they said that one of the unfortunate things was that there was this flurry of media interest right after the case.
BBC and a bunch of other local news media, and they, They took these children in and they questioned them, they extracted information out of them, and then they never really gave them any therapy or told them how to deal with it.
So they've been left on their own all these years and just dying to talk about it and to process it.
Alright, let me ask you a question.
You said these gals drew pictures or did drawings of what these creatures looked like.
Where are those drawings?
Oh, well, we have them.
We have them.
We have them here.
I wish I would have known I was coming on.
I could have taken some photographs and posted them up for you guys.
But I've got you.
So you tell me, what do they look like?
Well, they all had, okay, so there's a field, a rather large playing field for the schoolchildren.
This is in Africa.
And at the end of the field, the field of play for the children, there were these logs.
that were to find the perimeter of the school playground.
And they knew, the children knew they could not go beyond that boundary.
There was, you know, an adjacent field where the craft was landed and the beans came to.
And it was funny because the children knew inherently they couldn't go beyond those logs.
And the beans, according to the children, didn't go into their zone.
So the children stood right on the threshold of as far as you can go without violating, you know, without going beyond.
And that's where the beams came right up to the edge.
And that's where the interaction took place.
And one of the girls, Emily had talked about, she was standing, I think, next to this girl, Liesl, and I got all their full names, but said that they wanted They were interested in us, and I said, how were they interested?
Well, we started to go with them, and I was almost in this trance, and Liesel started to make a gesture as though she was going to go with them and put her hand out to go with them, and she said she snapped out of her Okay James, reset, refresh.
and realized this might not be such a good idea, we're not supposed to go
anywhere with strangers, and she sort of stopped and snapped out of it. And just
at that point, the school bell rang, the recess bell rang, and that's when the
whole thing ended. Okay James, reset, refresh. The question was, you've seen
those pictures. Oh, so sorry. What did the creatures look like, James?
Okay, so they had tight-fitting, what they described are wetsuits for divers.
So that's the only thing the children had known.
So they had these tight-fitting suits, spindly arms, spindly legs.
They hovered.
Apparently they didn't walk, but they hovered.
Didn't really get a good description of the hands, but the big eyes.
Every single one of them kept saying the eyes.
We're this black like you haven't seen any kind of black that tapered off very large almond shaped eyes and the darkness of those eyes and that slits for mouths very small noses if noses at all and a little slit and all the communication was done through the eyes and they were about three and a half to four feet tall according to the witnesses and they had these black tight-fitting what they described as like a wet suit that you'd go diving in like tight-fitting suit that with these very large eyes Like I said, a slit for a mouth, and I think the same for a nose, and then these huge eyes with a rather larger tip.
This is a really, really significant sighting when you get 200 children involved in seeing what you're telling me they saw.
And I know that John Mack was hot on this, and I know he was deeply into it and had done a lot at the time.
That you mentioned that he looked perhaps not the right way and crossed the road.
Look, I'm not a conspiracy person, despite what people may think because of the job I do.
I'm not as convinced that John Mack didn't look both ways before he crossed the road.
I'm sorry.
I think people have been shut up that do this kind of work.
I don't know if either one of you tonight have any stories to relate.
Now that you're into the 701 thing, you may well find out sooner than later that somebody will come and, at the very least, talk to you.
I think people are talked to, and if they don't keep their mouths shut, I think some of them are killed.
We had a very interesting thing revealed for the first time ever.
You know Kenneth Arnold, right?
Very famous.
Yes.
We had his daughter, Kim Arnold, which was quite a An effort to get her to come out and go on camera and share these incredible memorabilia that her father had kept in the family vault for all these years, and that she had so diligently kept track of when she moved into the family house.
And she kept all the correspondence between the Air Force and her father, the photographs the Air Force had shared with her father, saying, look, the invitations that he got to these Air Force bases in 49, and And then this whole pamphlet that apparently Kenneth Arnold had put together for a presentation he was going to do, he was going to go on a speaking tour, and he got a visit by someone in the Air Force, and we didn't know about this until his daughter just shared this with us on camera, and his life was threatened.
Like, basically, they didn't say, we're going to kill you, but the way they said it was, you do this and there are consequences to pay, and that was that.
Well, you know, and to that point as well, you know, Don Schmidt, who's working with us on this film, he has, I guess, a creative consultant.
You know, I had a very unusual experience since I've been dealing with this, and I'm kind of with you Art, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but when I took the gear out for the first shoot, and we landed at LAX, we were out there for about a week, and when we came back, it's not unusual when you have those pelican cases full of all this gear, we have locks on them.
So we fully expect, they weren't TSA approved locks, so we fully expect that they're probably going to crack the locks on us, we'll have to replace them, whatever.
So, sure enough, on the way out there, they had cracked the locks, done their thing, and no big deal.
Well, while we're out there, I began talking to Clifford Stone, who's an absolutely amazing researcher with all kinds of documents that would rival anyone's collection.
And while I'm there, he gives me these D-Class documents, these FOIA documents, that are very compelling.
And he says, take them back, look them over, Uh, if you want to come out, uh, if you want to come out West next month, you can come to the house.
I've got 5 million documents.
I'll walk you through it.
I'm like, sure, absolutely.
I want to be there.
And he said, you know, but keep, you know, keep these safe.
Not a lot of people know about them.
He said, just hold on to them.
So I put these documents inside the suitcase, underneath all my stuff, flew back to Savannah.
And on the way back, we actually used TSA approved locks, trying to avoid, you know, getting them cut.
Well, when I get back, the locks are completely gone off of the luggage.
I open up the case where my clothes and my documents are, which wasn't even locked.
And when I open it up, the files that Clifford had given me, and this is from Cambodia, Vietnam, that kind of stuff, are laying on top of my clothes, which I thought was odd.
But then when I open the file, I see the TSA document.
Inside the folder on top of the files.
And every person I have ever talked to, including Don Schmidt, because I told him about this, anytime that happens, they put that TSA form on top of your belongings and to the best of their ability, they put them back how they found it.
But it was stuck inside the folder on top of a D-class document about enemy helicopters, codename enemy helicopters, in Cambodia and Vietnam, sitting right on top of those documents when we came back.
And Don Schmidt said, Uh, go ahead and get used to that.
He even remarked that his hotel room at one point had been broken into while he was actually doing an investigation.
So, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but yeah, I completely agree.
You'll probably get talked to.
All right.
Hold it right there, guys.
Hold it right there.
We're going to take a break and think about this while we're gone.
What could be so incredible that it would be worth killing for?
I mean, killing an investigator.
Just say somebody like John Mack.
About what? Huh?
What information could there be to be worth somebody's life?
I'm Art Bell. This is Dark Matter.
Well, alright. I guess I'm gonna have to say this.
I've been on the air a long time.
I was a very good friend.
John and I, John Mack and I, became very good friends.
I knew that he was working on this story in Africa, and I knew the details that you've been hearing tonight of the story in Africa.
And I was on the air one night, and I got a flash that John Mack had been hit by a vehicle in London.
And I thought, Bull poop.
And I, you know, I don't know what else to say.
I thought baloney.
John Mack is dead.
Well, there's a reason he's dead and that reason in my mind is not that he didn't look both ways.
We're adults.
When you're in a foreign country, trust me, you look both ways before you cross the street because you're not familiar with the traffic and all the rest of it.
You're just I don't believe it for a second.
It's my opinion that John Mack was killed.
There it is, out on the table.
Gentlemen, we've got Tobias McGriff and James Fox with us.
Any thoughts, either one of you, on what about this case or any case that we could discuss And for example, Sparks was on last night.
I had Sparks on last night.
He described exactly what you just described in terms of a message that was given to him and to the school children.
It was the same message.
Any idea what would be so, I don't know, so inflammatory, so fiery that it would be worth killing somebody for?
Well, I think that, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I guess I have to keep disclaiming that, I feel like I do anyway, but I don't believe that the government, most any government, but I don't believe ours trusts us with that kind of information.
And it's gotten really easy, or much easier for people like, you know, what we're doing now, other folks that are doing similar things, It's gotten much easier to get your hands on information, to document that information, to disseminate that information.
I mean, we are still in the information age, and I think that when you are putting things like that out, you are talking about a loss of control from an entity that is built upon the premise of keeping control.
And I think that with something with a question this big, to have these kinds of implications that could point to a higher power, and I don't mean a spiritual one, but like A metal craft, higher power, that would, you know, far eclipse any of the power of the governments of the world.
I think you're looking, like you said, you're going to get talked to.
And if I can just share this really quick, something that, and James is familiar with this, I've been very, very private about this particular thing, but when I obtained the equipment for us to film the documentary part of 701, I had had this equipment for two days.
Before you get in, talk about, this isn't just any old equipment.
Tobias got equipment that's going to enable us to do a feature documentary film for a theatrical release.
This is top-notch equipment that he's providing 701 team.
So it's not just any old equipment.
Well, and not only that, but the collective of people that we have on this.
I mean, when we go from folks like, you know, Colonel John Alexander, All the way down to Nick Pope.
I mean, we could just go on and on.
When you have that many people that are willing to go on record, you have cutting edge equipment, you have people that are in it for the right reasons, that know where to look, that know what to do and how to disseminate it, then you're going to, I think you're going to get looked at.
And two days after I purchased this equipment, I decided on a hunch that I was going to let my DP borrow the equipment.
I was very like, I mean, I have to really trust this guy to let him borrow this equipment.
I agreed to do it, so he was shooting a national spot for something nothing to do with what we're doing.
So the equipment wasn't in my home.
I left, and I live in a really safe, nice neighborhood, and I left my home for two hours.
I mean, I'm here all the time.
I left for two hours.
Someone had broken into the house.
They had taken a suction to the front glass of the front door, and they had pulled it outward.
So these are not amateurs.
These are not kids.
I mean, I don't know of any kids that walk around with that kind of device.
They had pulled the glass out of the frame.
They had gotten into the house, and the only thing they had done was opened all of the Pelican cases where the equipment would have been.
It wasn't there.
It wasn't there.
I had just gotten insurance less than 24 hours before.
How does that look?
You go take out that kind of insurance, and all of a sudden you got a break-in?
How's that going to look?
So, they popped through all the Pelican cases and they took my passport.
That was the only thing missing out of my house.
So, and this is just as we're getting started.
So, what do I think would be the motivation to kill someone?
I didn't start having problems.
When I'm talking about the paranormal, no problem.
When I start talking about this, and putting an eye on it, all of a sudden the house is getting broken into, TSA flyers put inside my folder of documents about, you know, things, because they were calling, according to Clifford, they were calling these UFOs enemy helicopters, and they have them recorded it moving at speeds of up to 1200 miles an hour.
Helicopters in Vietnam don't do that.
Well... No helicopters do that.
Exactly.
So when you start delving into that kind of stuff, it could be because there's two schools of thought for the main part.
And that is the government has no idea what these things are or what to do about them, or the possibility that they are the originator of them.
And either way you go, you're talking about a loss of control.
And I think entities like governments are willing to do whatever they need to do to maintain that control.
I think that's a really good answer.
It is all about control, and that is worth taking a life over.
And when you get something as clear and unambiguous as what happened in, even though it's in Africa, because it's in Africa, you know, it's so easy for people across the United States to kind of write it off, Africa, oh, Africa, yeah, right.
But this involved 200 children.
It involved communication with these children.
It involved clear, unambiguous sightings.
So I think that it was big enough that they were afraid, as you just pointed out, and there are other things you can talk about like religion and other institutions that just would be in big trouble, but I think it's loss of control.
I think that's exactly right.
I think our government doesn't have the first clue how to control this information.
Well, it's interesting when we say our government, because you get indications.
You remember when Stephen Schiff was really hammering the GAO, General Accounting Office, and the Air Force for answers on Roswell back in 95?
You remember that?
Oh yes, clearly, yes, clearly.
Okay, so he was getting the run around.
We know that Clinton was making inquiries.
We know that Carter made inquiries.
We know that Gerald Ford made inquiries.
These things I can all back up.
And we know that J. Edgar Hoover was making inquiries and couldn't get anywhere.
So when we say government, it's like a shadowy arm of our government.
Not necessarily the elected representatives, but the members that operate more in the shadows.
That don't come and go as elected representatives do.
What I remember most about Schiff is that the documents he was seeking mysteriously were reported to be... Okay, now I've got something really cool to tell you.
Don't you remember that?
Yes, yes I remember that.
And you just made me remember something that I've been dying to tell you.
It just happened a couple of days ago.
So we're interviewing General McPeak.
Joint Chiefs of Staff, top military, Air Force.
Right.
A couple of days ago.
And we had to talk kind of hypotheticals because, you know, obviously it's his position.
I know he campaigned for Obama.
He's very well connected, very high up.
I mean, it was really kind of funny, actually.
At the beginning of each interview, we say, you know, you can state your name and talk a little bit about yourself and what you've done.
And, you know, he's like, well, I'm Pete, and he spells his name out.
He says, well, you know, my job.
I had a million people working for myself, I had this budget, and I think he said, either in the hundreds of billions or one point something trillion.
It was astronomical, right?
And I have to, you know, brief the President, and I'm thinking, wow!
So we're talking hypotheticals.
And I said, well, you know, if this happened, would that be considered, you know, could you, if the accounts would be believed, would you, you know?
He first of all said, you know, if any of the accounts are to be believed, then there's nothing in the United States Air Force or the military that he knows of, categoric sweeping statement, nothing that could be accounted for.
These, these machines that are reported since the last 65, 70 years, absolutely nothing.
Then he said, you know, if, if these reports were to be believed and if, you know, as the Air Force has full control or erratically full control of our airspace, If there's an unidentified something that would not identify itself, jets would be scrambled, and if they were unable to intercept, unable to determine what that was, that would remain classified.
And he said that.
So then I, towards the end of the interview, because I didn't want to scare him off, I said, well, what about Roswell?
And I thought he would just say, oh, shh, you know, nothing.
And I said, well, because apparently those files are missing or something.
He said, no, no, they're all there.
He said, I actually looked into that when I became Joint Chief of Staff.
I said, really?
He said, yeah, there were thousands of documents.
Thousands.
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
Schiff was going after them.
He was told, officially told by the government, that they appear to have been destroyed some time ago.
General McPeak said they were all there.
That he went and saw them.
He did not have the time to go through them, but there were thousands.
I have this on camera.
There were thousands.
My, my, my, my, my, my, my.
I said, wait a minute, you mean they weren't missing? He said, no, they were there. I pulled them. There were
thousands.
Ah, gee, what are you going to believe?
Isn't that crazy? Now, going back for a second, because this is really interesting. You guys were talking about
threats and government threats and that sort of thing.
This is interesting. And I know this to be a fact.
So the first military officer who was on the scene after Lonnie Zamora's April 24, 1964 sighting of that landed egg-shaped
object with the four laming gear and the so-called beans.
Remember that case?
Yes.
So, the first military officer, not talking about the police officers, there was a couple of police officers that were there, but the first military officer was Richard T. Holder.
And he was in the Army at White Sands.
He was there within about an hour and a half.
The sun hadn't completely gone down by the time he was there.
He took plaster cast molds.
I'm in touch.
He's unfortunately no longer with us, but there was an interview that was done of him, I think in 1994, Unsolved Mysteries.
And one of the partners that's on the 701 team is Tracy Torme.
Are you familiar with him?
He did Fire in the Sky.
Anyway, intruders.
He's an A-list script writer.
And he's been pushing for the scoring match to a case, but long story short, I got put in touch with him.
He pushed... Sorry, I've got so much to tell you, I'm so excited.
Just take a deep breath and you'll get it.
Okay, so Tracy Torme, back in 1993, pushed his buddy, who was writing for the Unsolved Mysteries.
Remember that show?
Of course.
And he said to his buddy, you've got to do this story on the Sikora, New Mexico case.
It's fairly unknown.
It was a really, really solid case as part of Project Blue Book.
It was a turning point case for Dr. J. Allen Hynek, the scientific advisor of Project Blue Book.
This is the seminal UFO, close encounter of the third kind as part of Project Blue Book files.
And you've got to do a story.
So they did.
And one of the people that came out of the shadows was Richard T. Holder.
And if you watch the segment, you can Google it, you'll see Richard T. Holder appear.
Remember, he was the first one on site.
First military officer on site.
Well, he did plaster casts of the landing gear of the craft, as well as the imprints from the aliens' footprints.
And there were elements of this whole thing That this whole case that he was going to reveal for the first time ever in 1994 as part of Unsolved Mysteries.
And I know this because I've been in touch with his two sons that are going to go on the record for 701 for the first time ever.
And they told me that right before he was to go on camera for Unsolved Mysteries, he got a phone call That reminded him of his security clearances and scared the bejesus out of him.
Basically threatened his life if he went all the way with what he was intended to do.
He intended to go all the way with this case and reveal for the first time in history what the Air Force really knew.
That they had concrete physical evidence that totally substantiated Lonnie Zamora's claims of extraterrestrials of these beings being there.
And there were other witnesses as well, and what the Air Force's conclusions actually were.
And he got a phone call, scared the bejesus out of him, and he gave a very sanitized version of that.
I believe it.
All right, let's, for the sake of the audience, have you describe this Corot incident.
Okay.
So it's... Either one or both of you, by the way.
I don't want to leave anybody out, James.
Oh, sorry.
Tobias, do you want to go first?
Yeah, I'll do that.
I was going to get you to tell them about the children.
Lonnie Zamora, he's a highway patrolman.
And what we learned through interviewing folks like Paul Harden and those guys, Lonnie has wanted to be a police officer his entire life.
That's his dream.
He becomes a police officer.
And he gets a call, and it was on April 24th, I think, 1964.
He's actually in a high-speed pursuit.
And as he's chasing this car, he sees, about a half-mile away, he sees this ball of fire.
Looks like it's an explosion.
He breaks away from the chase, goes to see what it is, and he sees, as James pointed out, the egg-shaped object.
And at first, he sees what he thinks is two children wearing white overalls.
And the way they were moving about, he said that one of them seemed to be jumping.
Well, he sees this take place and he realizes as he gets closer to it that it's actually a metal craft.
These are not human.
He watches this thing take off in front of him.
It leaves.
And as James pointed out, the people came on the scene, they did the investigation.
Lonnie is getting hit from all different sides.
You know, from people that are not just wanting to hear his story, but you've got the detractors, you've got the full-blown believers.
And so the pressure from all this, Lonnie just goes down this road, and as James was mentioning the Zimbabwe case, I think that's what the Sikora case is for me as far as the touchstone.
Because when you look at Lonnie's life, this is a guy who would have much rather caught that speeder than to have seen this UFO.
Yes, I understand.
But he gets thrust into this situation that he didn't want to be in.
Other people might kill to be in that situation.
Well, he is getting all this pressure from all these different sources.
He ends up leaving the police department and eventually he gets so tired of listening to everybody's different version, he ends up managing a gas station.
And I think he died in 2009, James, is that right?
Yeah, 2009.
He died in 2009 of a heart attack, but his wife is still alive.
And I would love to make that happen where we could actually go to Socorro, maybe even talk to Paul Harden, and actually talk to Lonnie Zamora's wife and kind of get her take on it as well.
I mean, this is an example of a man whose life Was basically ruined by something he had absolutely no control over.
And James has a really good story about how what he thought were the children that he saw ties into this.
If you want to just chime in on that, James.
Just before you do, again, what struck me about what you said with respect to the children and the communication that went on resonates with so many others.
that have had some sort of communication with what they regarded as extraterrestrials.
The message was the same.
The appearance of the extraterrestrials was described the same way again and again and again and again.
Now, if people are out there, you know, making up stories, they're doing an awfully good job of being coordinated.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Anyway, go ahead with what you wanted to say.
Oh, well, um, one of the things is Lonnie Zamora, when he first, when he first saw this landed object, he thought it was an overturned car, uh, that had spun off the road and there were two children, the injured children standing next to it.
And as he approached, uh, he was off road in the dirt at this point on a dirt road.
As he got closer and closer to this, this object, he realized that it was not an overturned car and that there were not children.
And he crept up on it in his patrol car and he got direct eye contact with one of these entities who appeared startled.
He was doing something to the outside of the craft and he appeared startled and kind of jumped when they got eye contact.
And then Lonnie sped up forward to go get a closer look.
At that point he was about 300 feet, roughly 300 feet away from the object.
And then he got, I think, roughly about 100 feet.
Closer to the object.
And the reason why I know a lot of these details is I just went and spent about 10 days with a gentleman named Ray Stanford, who wrote a book about the incident that's called Socorro, Saucer, and a Pentagon Pantry.
And he had kept, this guy is the most meticulous researcher I've ever met, and a lot of people have certain issues with some of his research techniques, but his book is thought to be one of the best, most accurate documentations of this case.
And so one of the things that happened is that when, and we know this now through Richard Holder's two sons that I'm talking with now, that Richard E. Holder got on the scene and he said two things.
One, there was a symbol on the outside of the craft and he said, we need to obfuscate this symbol because If it gets out, this symbol gets out, and then other people can create hoaxes, but if we internalize this symbol within just the investigative arm of the Air Force or the military, and then we put out a different symbol that's different, then we'd know immediately if there are other hoax cases claiming to see the same symbol, which I thought was a rather good idea, right?
And that's the same thing that the police use in investigations, murder investigations, Um, particularly serial killer type things, they will withhold a very important piece of evidence, so if they catch somebody, they'll know they caught the right guy, or the right gal.
Yeah, so they did that with the symbol, then the other thing they asked him to do, the Air Force really wanted him to play down the fact that he saw beans, so what they said was, why don't you say you saw, this is so ridiculous, And if anyone out there has seen the movie, there's a documentary film that was done by Alan Sandler and Bob Ebenezer called UFOs Past, Present, or Future.
They were filming, I think, in 1972, and they had unprecedented access to all these secret military installations, NORAD, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
And one of the cases they covered back in the early 70s was the New Mexico case.
And, you know, Quintanilla from Project Blue Book was there.
and they and they stuck to the story there too that he sought to pairs of white overall on
clothesline okay so that went from
seen being to that which is total hogwash uh... because when i went to the national archives just
recently they were not only like descriptions of the beans
but from the united i would like those I would like those descriptions.
We've got to take a break here, gentlemen, so hold on, please.
And when we get back, I want to hear those descriptions, the Socorro beans.
The Seagram Company has had an awful lot of calls on how to record and archive my shell, the one you're hearing now.
The CC Witness Plus is a really small pocket-sized MP3 digital recorder and player that will allow you to record your favorite radio program, hoping it's this.
All you have to do is plug in any headphone jack of your smartphone, tablet, computer, satellite receiver and press record.
Then you have your own on-demand show.
Now of course you know that we've got the reset thing Set now for four hours, so that means you can start your computer, hook up the CC Witness, and four hours later you've got an on-demand copy of my show.
The CC Witness comes with a two gigabyte Memory chip on board, actually, and you can get more storage.
You can use four gigabytes in a SD card if you want to.
This way, you can take the recordings with you anywhere, listen anytime.
Don't have to be stuck at a computer downloading or accessing archived shows.
It comes with 20 timers.
It's a piece of cake to program.
I mean, really easy.
Has an AM FM radio and microphone built-in small stereo speakers.
And there's no need for you ever to miss another favorite show again, whether it's mine or anybody else's.
The CC Witness Plus is the answer.
Order one now.
$149.95.
Good things are not cheap.
$149.95.
Sea Crane Company, 800-522-8863.
things are not cheap. 149.95, C. Crane Company, 800-522-8863.
As with all their products, you can pick up the phone right now and you can order. So
here's that number again, 1-800-522-8863 or Ccrane.com.
The CZ Witness.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Dark Matter Raging in the Night.
Right, the lines are not yet open.
We've got so much to do here.
Tobias McGriff and James Fox are my guests.
And when we said we had the good stuff for you tonight, that was no joke.
Just before we get back to James Tobias, I would like to have you repeat for everybody the website.
I mean, this is a man who, along with Jimmy Carter, saw what he saw, and he knows what he saw.
You've got video of that, and of him talking about it, and you have put it up tonight, along with your book, which you're very generously giving away.
We don't get guests very often that ever give away a book.
But it's actually up there for download, and all this is on a website that you have called what?
Artbillgoodstuff.com.
I love the name of that.
Yeah, it's a welcome back to broadcasting.
It was conceived last night in the middle of that coincidence.
It was, absolutely.
So the book is absolutely free, but the video is startling and right in the middle of what we're talking about right now.
Give great time, or maybe after, whatever, for people to watch this video and get a sense of the impact that this sighting had on this man, along with Jimmy Carter.
So, yeah.
I had people begging me to repeat the website, so there you go.
And also, I'm sorry, Art, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Go ahead.
That's all right.
No, you're not.
I was just going to say, the articles are there, too, and I think anyone who's into reading about this kind of stuff, these articles, to my knowledge, aren't available anywhere else on the web.
I mean, we had to hand-dig these out of a small newspaper in southwest Georgia that was written by this newspaper.
So, to my knowledge, if they're not out there in this quantity, certainly not combined together.
So, if someone's interested in reading about just how many sightings there were, they can see those articles on that website, as well.
All right.
Artbellgoodstuff.com.
What did you do?
You went out and got that URL just that quickly?
Absolutely.
we had elves working on it all night.
And, um, we were, uh, we were at the, it was, yeah, obviously it was, it was tongue in cheek and it was done
with love by a lot of people that really respect you.
And so it was a group effort and we wanted to have something special for You know, your folks that were listening.
When I'm not on your show, I'm a listener, so it was just one of those things where I always thought it would be cool if somebody just got on there and didn't have anything and they were trying to hawk and was just giving it away.
How unusual.
Thank you so much, Tobias.
And James, back to Socorro, and you were about to describe what the witnesses said about the creatures.
Yes.
So, it was Lonnie Zamora.
Officer Lonnie Zamora.
He said that they had jumpsuits.
Like, tight-fitting jumpsuits.
White.
And they had no hair.
Slightly larger heads, but he didn't see them really well, but they looked like children.
Spindly.
Short.
And the reason why he knew their size, because they were standing right next to a bush.
And they knew exactly the height of the bush, because he went and measured the height of the bush, and they were just, I think, below that height of the bush.
So they were about just under four feet tall, spindly, with tight-fitting white jumpsuits on, and nothing from the neck up, and no hair.
You know, I'm going to leave this to the audience as they hear this.
If this isn't causing alarm bells to go off in your mind, ooh, that sounds familiar, then I don't know.
Can I read you a document that we just found out of the National Archives?
Absolutely.
It came directly out of Project Blue Book.
This is really neat because it shows kind of a level of panic that was going on internally during this whole fiasco.
And that is, you know, a lot of times when you have these very unambiguous UFO encounters, especially with someone as credible as a police officer, the Air Force, according to Dr. J. Allen Hynek, who was the scientific advisor to Project Blue Book, Later in years, he gave interviews saying that the Air Force would jump handsprings to prevent the news media from, but this got out ahead of time, and the Air Force was unable to put the lid on it.
This is the letter, and I'll read it directly.
It came from, it's to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio to RUCD something headquarters, and it says, numerous inquiries concerning Air Force investigation and evaluation of the recent UFO sighting at Socorro, New Mexico, 24th April, continue to be received from news media, from the Office of the President, and members of Congress.
This headquarters is unable to respond properly, pending receipt of your conclusions.
Request appropriate action be taken Immediately to ensure that reports of personnel assigned to investigate and evaluate the sighting be completed and forwarded immediately, and then BT.
So basically what they're saying is, what do we tell these people?
Yeah.
It's incredible.
I understand.
Yeah, it is incredible, and it's just been going on for years and years and years and years, and until you get a couple of people like you on the air who are willing to sort of come back and rehash this along with other witnesses that we've had, God, it just becomes, it all starts to fall into place.
And so, it brings me back again to what could be serious enough for them to take a life over it.
And I believe they have taken lives.
So, I've chewed this over for a long time, and I think one of the things is that, well, you said it, lack of control, but it actually goes well beyond that, if there are aliens, and if They have anything to do with how we got here, then you've really got a problem.
In other words, if we didn't come here exactly as the Bible says, as our Bible told us, if we got here through some other means, then the disruption to society and to so many important institutions around the world would be unsustainable.
Either one of you are welcome to... Well, and the level of panic that it would cause.
I mean, people are so... I mean, people are so resistant to change.
I mean, obviously, I'm not a fan of the government being shut down right now.
But, I mean, I know people that don't know what they're going to do because, you know, the National Park is closed.
I mean, imagine what would happen if, you know, like you said, your belief system is turned upside down.
Or if we had a belief That they were so far advanced that if there was an oppressive government, we had a higher power that we could appeal to that was in metal craft with technology that could inflict change.
We could make an appeal to them.
If you start putting that kind of decision-making power into the hands of the masses, I just don't... And another thing, and this may sound callous, but I really believe this.
We talk about it from the perspective of what could be so You know, pressing or great that a government or an entity would be willing to kill over it.
I don't, I don't think something has to be really impressive or great for them to kill over it.
I think they'll kill over stuff fairly easily.
And it doesn't, I mean, we've, we've fought battles and wars that there was really nothing to gain for it.
And we were willing to let many people die because of it.
So I think one, taking one person out of the game to stop a question that big.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't think they would blink an eye, whoever they are.
Well, you know, you remember, this is, you know, and I'm going to say the same thing that both of you have said, not being a big conspiracy theorist, I like things backed up with as much facts as possible, but there's a preponderance of evidence to suggest that, you know, what's being discussed right now, there's some truth behind it.
And one of the things that I've always been highly suspicious of I'm not saying that Dr. John Mack... James, let me stop you.
You haven't switched over to a speakerphone, have you, James?
Oh, I'm so sorry.
Yes, I did.
Is that better?
Much better, yes.
No speakerphones.
I'm so sorry.
That's alright.
I have a good ear.
You remember Congressman Stephen Schiff?
Was really hammering hard on the United States Air Force and he was really hammering the GAO and I was sitting on the sidelines applauding him and just commending his effort.
I couldn't believe what was going on quite honestly and then all of a sudden he gets cancer and dies.
I know.
Well I got an interesting story probably about six months after that I was working as a friend of mine had a catering company in in the Bay Area and I was working a party at Opus One Winery It was a fundraising event for the Republican Party.
And the Speaker of the House at the time was there, who was pressing charges against Clinton during his sexual peccadillas.
Come on, guys, help me here.
This is in the 90s.
Speaker of the House, Republican Party.
Why am I drawing a blank?
In any case, we weren't supposed to fraternize with any of the guests of our Newt Gingrich, possibly?
Thank you very much, Newt Gingrich.
But I couldn't help myself, and I approached Newt Gingrich with a hand, I had a little tray of some little tidbits, and I said, Mr. Gingrich, would you, you know, Speaker of the House, would you be, he said, oh yes, don't mind if I do, and I figured, well, now's my time, I'm going to get this question in.
It was about, I would say, three to six months after Congressman Stephen Schiff had died, and I said, Do you anticipate or expect any kind of disclosure on the UFO phenomenon?
And he said, the what?
And I said, the UFO phenomenon.
And his demeanor shifted totally right then and there.
And he looked at me like, you're in over your head, kid, kind of look.
And he said, oh yeah, Stephen Schiff was pushing for that.
And I said, Stephen Schiff is dead.
He said, yes, pity, isn't it?
And he gave me this look like, you're in over your head, punk.
I can't, you have to be there, but it was this look he gave me, like, don't ask those questions.
You don't know what you're doing, kid.
And he just kind of moved on.
And I always suspected, because about a year before that, I was doing an interview in a hotel room in Washington, D.C., and I was just the cameraman for an NSA guy.
And I was setting up the camera and the lights, and he just started talking.
I had no real interest in what he was doing.
I was just operating the camera.
And I started setting up stuff, and he said, you know, kid, I'm going to tell you something.
And I kind of listened, you know, discreetly.
He says, one of the things he said was, we don't put bullets in people anymore nowadays.
He said, we have this device.
And I wasn't sure what to think of it, really.
We have a device that we can point at someone from across the street that causes malignant cell division and gives them cancer.
And that's how we take people out now.
Heart attacks, too.
I think heart attacks are easy.
Well, I mean, so many people talk about the whole Peter Jennings case with his UFO special.
I mean, there's a lot of different ways you could go with that.
Do you know that Peter Jennings' last special was, in fact, about UFOs?
Oh, absolutely, yeah.
That's the one I was in.
Did you know that?
I licensed footage from out of the blue for that special.
I was really excited about it.
There's some pretty credible evidence that he was asked to back off on multiple occasions.
And, you know, one month later he's diagnosed with cancer.
Admittedly, he was a smoker, or had been.
He was a former smoker.
Actually, he had restarted, is what happened.
He went on the air and explained that during 9-11 he restarted.
Yeah, but I do find it I do find it odd, especially when James talks about the preponderance of evidence.
When you put that against so many other people that have all of a sudden developed cancer, when they start digging into these kinds of things, you have to wonder.
And I do.
Anyway, I just remember the timing of it all, when Congressman Stephen Schiff was really getting to the bottom of it, and he was publicly bashing the Air Force and saying, you know, this is just not making, it's not making any sense.
Why would they fly debris from a common everyday weather balloon under armed guard and a B-29 to Wright-Patt?
This just doesn't add up.
And they're giving me the runaround, and when I finally get access to the so-called files, they're all missing.
The entire files from, you know, and he's really calling them out.
And then he gets cancer and dies.
To me, I just remember thinking, you know, there must be foul play.
And one of the things I'd love to do is get in touch with his family and find out, or his doctor, and find out if Stephen Schiff felt that way, too.
And I remember talking to Don Schmidt recently about this, and he said that he had done a little research and that he suspected foul play.
Wow.
I'm not surprised.
I'm honestly not surprised.
And I remember how hard he was pushing.
And I remember the night of the announcement that, oh, All these files have been destroyed, were destroyed.
We didn't know that.
We just found out they're all destroyed.
And, my goodness, you're telling me that you've got an eyewitness.
A general, was it?
Oh, they had so many eyewitnesses.
I mean... No, no, no, no.
You said you had a... You don't know.
You said you had a general.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
General McPeak.
General McPeak just said, on the record, on camera, a couple of days ago, that all the files were there.
There were thousands of them.
Thousands is what he said.
Liars.
I couldn't believe it.
I remember thinking to myself, wow, Congressman Schiff couldn't get access to any of them.
They're all missing.
And General McPeak just said they were there.
And he must have checked in 93 and 94.
How do we call them out on this?
I mean, yes, we're on radio stretching from coast to coast to coast.
But how do we call them out on this?
I mean, let's have the damn documents.
Yeah, and then what do we do after we call them out, you know?
I mean, we know what you've got to do.
It's going to happen.
I'm convinced it's going to happen with the people.
I mean, I went and handed out copies of Out of the Blue back in 2005 or 2006 to each and every member of the House.
I tried to get to the Senate, but I got to the House.
And I had the opportunity to talk with... I thought that, you know, maybe, you know, we could get congressional hearings like we had in 66, 68, and what I learned was from that there was level of interest, more so the Republican
Party than there were the Democratic Party, with the UFO phenomenon. But pretty much across the
board, they all said, and I spoke mostly with Chief of Staff, but I did speak with a few
Congressmen at the time and women, is that there's no way in hell there are going to be congressional
hearings or that they're going to start putting pressure unless they hear from their
constituents.
It has to come from we, the people.
So, the best thing for us to do, and Art, you're obviously the best at it than anybody else, but the best thing for us citizens to do is to get the information out there in a way that can be, you know, obviously entertainment, but also information in documentaries and feature films.
So, inform the people on what's really going on, because when you hear of a landing case in Beans, like the Supreme Court in New Mexico case, on its own, You think, you know, the general guy, Joe Public thinks, well, that's a pretty outrageous thing.
But when you actually, like, put that case, and you couple it with the Rua Zimbabwe case, and the Virginia case, and all these other cases across the world and the United States of America, you start to see a pattern.
You start to see, like, well, then they start becoming more and more credible, more and more believable.
Wow, this isn't just something, you know, crackpot, you know, from Arkansas.
This is something that's happening across the planet.
And I think if you can put together enough Good evidence and sift through the crazy and the compelling.
That's why we have the title 701.
Those stubborn cases, those unambiguous cases.
Do you want to cover the Virginia case?
You want to cover that?
Sure.
Go ahead.
So it's 1996.
It's in a town called Varginha, Brazil.
And Varginha is roughly, I think, three, four hours north of Sao Paulo.
And when I first heard about the case, I heard about it in the late 90s.
I know Stan Friedman had gone there right after it happened, and Roger Lear had been there as well and even wrote a book on it.
But I remember, I don't know, for some reason hearing aliens wandering around in a town and being seen by these people in the village, it just seemed really far-stretched for me.
But when I got invited to go and do a short little presentation in Brazil a couple of years ago, a very good friend of mine who's in the TV industry, I'll just say his name, Jeff Styganski, he's former head of TriStar Pictures, he said, James, you've got to investigate the Virginia case.
And I started, oh, come on.
He goes, no, man, I really think there's something to it.
So long story short, I did.
There were witnesses, the wee hours of the morning, that reported a craft, a UFO in distress, that apparently looked like as though it was going down, it was shaped like a large van, had no wings, no tail, didn't make any noise, it had sparks coming off the back of it, and apparently there were other witnesses talking about a debris field of where the impact site was.
And the following day, there were witnesses in the town, and I think it's up to a hundred at this point, that saw these creatures, But there was no creatures and crap.
There were creatures.
These creatures were about, um, and I spoke directly with the witnesses, the three school girls that saw these creatures.
And I talked to the military officers, the friends that had handled one of them, but they were roughly four feet tall.
They had skin that was like the skin on your, on your liver, like an organ, kind of greasy.
And the way it was described, no hair, They had these really spindly arms, spindly legs.
They appeared very feeble.
They appeared not to be aggressive.
They were spindly and feeble, and seemed like they were having a hard time.
They had these big red eyes, and they had these ridges.
They had three fingers, three digits, and then these ridges on their rather large heads that were seen in the town.
And this is all factual, what I'm telling you.
The reports are factual.
Again, my recollection is that the number of witnesses was tremendous.
Oh, tremendous.
I mean, a lot of people in town had seen it.
As a matter of fact, the three girls that I interviewed in Varginhas that had seen this creature, they thought they saw the devil.
You know, they're very religious young girls.
They thought it was the devil.
They didn't know anything to do with E.T.
or anything else.
And when they were running off, they were in a field, they were taking a shortcut home to their house, and they saw this creature kind of kneeled over by a wall in a field, and they all screamed, they got eye contact with the creature, and then they ran off, and as they were running off, they heard these construction workers on a roof saying, oh boy, they must have seen the same creature we just saw.
So other people in the town were seeing them.
So you have witnesses describing a UFO in distress, you have witnesses describing a debris field, Uh, that the army had, had secured.
Um, and then you have, uh, at least a hundred, if not more witnesses in the town of Virginia that saw these creatures and then a flurry of activity in the local hospitals.
The entire town was cordoned off.
They had military trucks from all over, uh, had taken over the local hospitals and there were thousands and thousands of witnesses regarding that.
And when we, when I went into the little town, I went, I went to the town square.
in downtown Virginia.
I just was asking random people on camera, hey, what do you know about the Virginia case?
And everyone had a story like, oh, my cousin's brother or my next door neighbor or my sister, you know, all had a story about this.
So it's a very, very solid case.
There were a lot of really reputable people.
Marco Petty, who's a Brazilian UFO researcher, AJ Javard.
AJ?
Okay, well, you've said it yourself, as we hear this description, yet another one.
There begins to be a preponderance of evidence that, if you fairly look at it, I think adds up to something gigantic.
I do have one question, since I've got both of you here, Tobias, who has done so much in the paranormal, and you, James.
Do either one of you think that there is a connection between these sightings, between this interaction with what we're calling ETs?
The things that we regard as paranormal, or is it not possible to even tell the difference?
I do think they are connected.
I mean, because we're using the same terms.
I mean, we're talking about working oftentimes with, you know, light and energy and dimensions and, you know, things that are impossible for us, very, you know, easy for them.
And that's one of the reasons I've kind of made the transition into looking at all things strange, if you will.
Because I think if I get pigeonholed into trying to explain all these events away as being just strictly paranormal or strictly metalcraft, you know, off-planet metalcraft, I think I'm going to miss the big picture.
And so I'm trying to take a body of evidence from all these different perspectives Hearing what everybody has to say, and then trying to come up with a theory.
And it's an early work for me, so I don't have many conclusions.
But I do have that hunch that was enough to get me involved in multiple genres to try to dig a little deeper.
Because the explanations that are being given, just going back to Varginha for a moment, they eventually tried to pawn off that creature as being a homeless person that had lived in Varginha.
That I haven't heard.
Do you know what they called him, James?
Little Louis or something like that?
That became the explanation.
It's as ridiculous as the overalls hanging on a clothesline.
The three girls that I interviewed, and here's the funny part, guys, is that when we went to Virginia, I think it was last year, We brought in some local talent, actually from Sao Paulo, because of, you know, we brought in an audio tech guy and a lighting guy, and just like Roswell in America, you know, they'd heard of it.
They'd heard of the Virginia case, and they thought, oh, yeah, wasn't that explained away?
You know, they'd heard of it.
When we brought the two Brazilians, the audio guy and the lighting guy, along with our crew to interview some of these witnesses, They were dumbfounded, gobsmacked by the testimony of some of these first-hand eyewitness testimonies.
And the girl said that the Air Force, I'm sorry, it was more of an Army affair, had approached the family and said, and it was very public, like the news media picked up on it really quickly, that if these girls would recant their story, and they told me this from their mouths to my ears, that if they would recant their story and say that they made it all up, that it was actually something like exactly what Tobias is
saying right now.
They would all get, you know, very generously rewarded for it, and end of story.
And all of the girls refused to do that.
And it's actually caused it's they're almost unemployable in the area.
I'm just telling you what they told me because the level of ridicule that they received
and the hardship that they received, and now even if they get a job,
the problem is that they're hounded by media.
Like there's so many people trying to get interviews with them even today
that it's disruptive to their job.
So they're just really, they're plagued by, they wish it would have never happened.
Alright gentlemen, I'm going to have to ask you to hold tight, and what I want to do is open the lines.
Open the phone lines.
You're welcome to call in and ask either one and or both of these gentlemen any question you would like after hearing all of this.
Certainly, you've heard a lot of profound things tonight.
I don't know what your impressions are, but I certainly would like to hear them.
And I would imagine you do have questions.
So, if you want to be part of Dark Matter, our phone number is an easy one.
It's 855-REAL-UFO.
855-REAL-UFO. That's 855-REAL-UFO. That equates to 855-732-5836.
855-732-5836.
So, love to have you call and be part of this program tonight.
I don't see how you can ignore a great deal of, even a large part of what you've heard tonight.
Very, very serious stuff.
Worth taking a life over?
Oh yeah.
Alright, we've got two guests tonight.
Tobias McGriff.
He said it'd be good stuff tonight.
The good stuff would be held for tonight and it sure has been.
And James Fox.
Both of them describing incident after incident.
And maybe some bullets.
Like the bone.
All right, so anyway, gentlemen, welcome back.
We've got a lot of people who would like to, I don't know, ask a question, make a statement.
We'll find out.
So if you're ready, let's go all the way right back to Tobias country in Georgia.
Bev, you're on the air.
Hi.
Douglas to you.
Thanks for taking my call.
Thanks for making it.
Back in 1975, we're talking about UFO sightings.
And I was just wondering if anybody had reported a UFO that kind of looked like, if you remember the kids game of ball and jack, I experienced seeing one that looked like that, and it spun around in the middle, and on each end had little different colored lights flashing.
And it was just above the treetops, and it was in September, because I just went back to school.
I was 13.
Where are you in Georgia?
I'm actually in Texas right now, but it was in Northwest Georgia.
I've seen it in the National Military Park there in a little town called Chickamauga, Georgia.
How far is that from Rome?
How far is that from Rome, Georgia?
Probably about 30 miles or less.
Yeah, I'm familiar with what you're talking about.
Not specifically where you're talking about, but in Rome, Georgia, which is really close to you.
There were some sightings in Northwest as well.
It was primarily in Southern Georgia.
I don't know about the, you talked about the jacks, I'm not sure about that, but as far as the changing multicolored object, there were some sightings in 73 through 75 up around Rome, Georgia, which is about 30 miles from where you're talking about, as you said.
Alright, to South Dakota and Sean.
Sean, you're on the air.
Sean?
Going once.
Going twice!
You lost your opportunity, Sean.
Let's move on to Nevada.
Jerry in Nevada, you're on the air.
Hi, how are you doing, gentlemen?
How's it going?
Good evening.
I've got actually a couple questions.
First, have any of you ever read the Celestine Prophecies?
I've read parts of it.
You know, I think that really ties in a lot, too, with the investigations with the paranormal as well as the UFO aspect, just the entire change of concept.
But, follow that up, you know, I've heard each of you say tonight that you're not conspiracy nuts, or, you know, you're not into the conspiracy thing.
Yet, you know, As I look back at our national history, our world history, our governments, whether monarchy or what, our government, they're plagued with secrecy, control of information, and manipulation of the media and the public.
You take it all the way back to the Indian Wars, and up to the current with what's going on with the budget and all that.
They're not going to tell us the truth, because to do so gets back to what Art was talking about earlier.
It breaks down the fabric of our society.
It eliminates, it's not just a political, but as well as an economic problem.
Okay, well, yes, what you're saying is absolutely right.
I mean, since the beginning of governments, they've had to be based on secrets.
And that's the only way control, keyword, is maintained.
There's no question about it.
Gentlemen, have any comment?
I would expect a certain amount of control, I mean, secrecy from any government.
I mean, we have to have that.
But yeah, what you're talking about is when you step beyond that line, For something this important, like the UFO question, the disclosure around this is, I think, larger than just, you know, closing the government or a secret military aircraft.
So, yeah, I guess I'm saying I agree with you.
One of the things, the conclusions that I've, you know, drawn after, and I've only looked into this for, I think, coming up on 20 years, is that the more I know, the more I realize I don't know, and the more i'm start to believe that
the government doesn't know a lot either i mean yeah they know they're not only
agree with that yeah they know there was no other space with impunity that's why
rings are our fastest jet
they know they do all these things in and yet maybe they
biggest reason for secrecy is and i asked
uh... this question to colonel Colonel Coleman is former public relations officer for the United States Air Force.
He was also a public spokesman for Project Blue Book.
He's also a World War II pilot, and he's also had one of the most incredible encounters with a flying saucer I've ever heard a pilot.
And I asked him this question.
I said, well, you know, why is it?
Why don't they just tell the public?
Why don't they come clean?
And he says, well, James, you have to think of it this way.
You can't tell them a little bit without opening up the floodgates of inquiries that are going to come in, and we don't have the answers.
We don't know.
So we have to deny everything.
All right.
It really comes down to control.
You don't want to have to say, if you're in the government, we don't know, or that we can't control the people using our airspace.
Tobias, I've got somebody, so very quickly, they say they can't find the book that you're giving away on the site.
I was just getting ready to ask you if I could say something real quick, because we're going to do it on Facebook for people wanting to know where to go.
It's artbillgoodstuff.com.
The traffic did bring the website down momentarily, but it looks like they've got it back up.
If you go to artbillgoodstuff.com and you just scroll down, you'll see the cover art for Savannah Shadows.
And at the end of that post, you will see something called Savannah Shadows Mock.
And if you'll just right-click on that and do Save Link As, you'll get the PDF file and it only takes a few seconds to download.
All right.
You know, it's funny.
I consulted with my webmaster tonight, Keith Rowland.
He said, oh no, it's backed up with good servers where they are.
It won't crash.
Wrong again.
It does have great servers.
We're on a grid system so it spreads the traffic, but I mean everything has a limit.
It looks like it's getting bombed because our Facebook page I mean, we're getting killed with requests like, what was the website again, blah blah blah, so I was going to ask you if I could just put it out there again.
Artbelgoodstuff.com, and all the way now to a friend of mine in the Philippines.
I'll be darned.
Rob, I think that's you, right?
Yes, it is.
How are you doing?
I'm fine, Rob.
Good hearing from you, all the way from Manila.
Yes, we're doing good here, sitting here with Kathleen.
We'll miss you and Irene and Asia a whole ton.
Thank you.
Well, if our government keeps doing this, Rob, you may be seeing us sooner than you think.
We've been monitoring the news over here and it looks like they're going to squeak out a last minute deal.
Well, it's called kicking the can down the street, Rob.
It's going to be right back at us in January and February.
Yeah, so maybe early next year.
Anyway, what's up?
Do you have a question for my guest rep?
I don't.
I got a message from Aaron that I was supposed to call in, so I thought you were maybe curious about the earthquake that happened over here.
Well, I'll take what I can get, sure.
You were quite a ways away from it in Manila, of course, but did you feel it substantially there?
We actually didn't feel anything here, but the island of Bohol, was really shook up. It's a beautiful, beautiful island.
Some of the Chocolate Hills, which is a gorgeous area, were destroyed. Some churches dating back to the 17th
century were destroyed. Even in Tabu, there was a church that was
17th or 18th century that toppled down, and
there's videos of it actually happening on YouTube.
Alright, well listen, Rob, we've got a couple of guests on here on a very important topic.
I don't know if you were able to listen.
I can listen online, but like I said, I've got the daughter here.
I just saw the message to call in.
Let's catch up soon.
It's amazing to me that you can call from the Philippines with such beautiful quality.
I assume you're on Skype.
Skype, yes, with very low bandwidth.
I am going to so play with my Skype.
All right, Rob, thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
That's all the way from the Philippines.
Going back to Georgia, here's Jeff.
Hello, Jeff.
Hi, how are y'all?
Great.
Oh, fine.
Have either one of y'all ever investigated the AGLN sighting in Allsdale, Georgia?
It happened in the late 40s or early 50s.
I actually knew a man that was at that signing.
What was the name of the signing again, I'm sorry?
Austell, Georgia.
It's A-U-S-T-E-L.
No, I'm familiar with Austell.
That was the name of the signing there, the Austell, Georgia signing?
Yeah, I've looked it up on the internet before.
It's supposedly an alien... They wrote it off as a shaved monkey that got hit by a truck, The man I talked to that was there said it wasn't a monkey.
He seen it and said that the military company picked it up.
I was wondering if y'all ever investigated that one.
I've never heard of that one.
Have you, James?
No, and it's funny because a lot of times the explanation, the denial or the explanation given by the Air Force or the military, is more hard to believe than the potential event itself.
A shaved monkey got hit by a truck?
I mean, really?
Is that the best excuse they can come up with?
How about bluish test dummies falling out of the sky for impact?
I mean, come on.
Right, yeah.
Indeed.
Do you remember the Air Force Release, the official release about Roswell after all this happened.
You remember that, where they had the test dummies?
They called it Roswell Case Closed.
Like, you know what?
We'd really like to close this thing.
Would you stop making inquiries?
You're killing us!
Yeah, this is the last of it.
All the way to Texas and Lance.
Lance, you're on the air.
Yes, I was wondering if you two guys had interviewed the man from Arizona, part of the movie Fire in the Sky, or it was about him anyway.
You mean Travis?
Sure, yes.
I interviewed Travis.
I had an extensive interview with Travis, if that's what you're talking about.
You know, Ben, if y'all had interviewed him, what y'all thought about that, and any information that y'all got, stories y'all had to tell from that interview.
Alright, alright.
Well, I had, as I mentioned, a very extensive, long interview with Travis Walton.
His story is compelling.
His story, I believe, is real.
I don't know what else to say about it.
You know, there were a number of people given lie detector tests.
Gentlemen, do you have any comment on the Travis Walton story?
Well, he was, James, you were with him last week, right?
Yeah, I was.
Somebody should say that.
Yeah, well, one of my partners, Tracy Torme, was responsible for the film Fire in the Sky.
And if any of you have seen that movie, you'll know that the ending of the film is not accurate.
It's not what Travis said happened.
And the frustration that Tracy went through with, I think it was Paramount Pictures, basically said, look, this is the way it's going to be, take it or leave it.
And so one of the ideas we had with 701 is let's set the record straight and let's get Travis back on camera and talk about what really happened after he was taken aboard the craft.
I met with some of the other witnesses that were there.
I went to Snowflake, Arizona.
I went to the actual location, I think two years, a year ago, and I absolutely think it's one of the best cases, one of the best.
No question about it.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, they all passed lie detector tests.
I think the inside of the Kraft story was absolutely terrifying.
Really terrifying.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
I mean, he just, he just, he just, I just heard him tell it three days ago.
Funny enough.
And then it's kind of funny.
Your, your listener called that one in.
Yeah.
When he came to and how aggressive he was.
And one of the things that I remember just now, the details of when he was trying to, when he came to and he woke up on the table, he thought he was in a hospital.
But then his eyes were slightly blurred, and he slowly started to get his vision back, and he realized there were no doctors that he'd ever seen before.
And of course, once again, he described the smaller beings, but he said he was so weak that he was trying to hit them away from him, but he was swinging in slow motion.
It's been a long time.
I should probably get Travis back on the program.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania brings Dane.
Hello, Dane.
Hello, R. Great to speak to you again.
I actually called you in the first week of your program.
This has been a great episode.
My question for your guest is this.
Within UFO mythology or lore, if you would, there's been stories about underground military bases.
And not only about these underground military bases, but there's a connecting network of tunnels.
Do you guys know anything about that?
I never really believed it.
But I've heard a story from someone, you know, very close to me in the Army that testified to the fact that there was an underground tunnel connecting Pittsburgh to a base in Ohio, the Ravenna Arsenal.
So I'm wondering if you guys know anything about that, if you've heard anything about that, and I appreciate your answer.
Thanks.
All right.
Either one of you, I've heard a great deal about underground tunnels and bases, actually, but I'll leave it to either one of you to pick it up on, pick up on it.
Go ahead, James, I'm sorry.
The only thing I can say that I firmly, I believe quite solidly, is that there was a guy, Colonel Weinbrenner, who died just last couple of years, who was head of foreign technology at Wright-Patt, and right before he died, and I only know this because I happen to be investigating a deathbed statement made by him, and it led me And basically what he said was that there was a crash, there were bodies recovered, and they were kept at an underground base in Dulcey.
And that was a statement that he made to his nurse.
And I contacted the person that it went to, which is Bob Ebeneger.
It's a whole other story, but basically, you know, I contacted Bob and said, Bob, why on earth would Colonel Weinbrenner You know, on his deathbed, give a statement to his nurse to be given to you about a crash and bodies being kept in an underground base at Dulce.
Dulce?
Yes.
Is that Utah?
Yeah, so... I don't think so.
Arizona, I thought.
Is it Arizona?
I'm sorry, I don't know.
I should know these things, but I don't.
I know he said Dulce.
I was investigating the deathbed statement for different reasons, but one of the things that Colonel Weinbrenner said to his nurses, there was an underground facility at Dulcey, where they were keeping bodies.
Okay, well, we'll get corrected if we're wrong.
Texas and April, hi.
Hey, great show tonight.
Gentlemen, you guys have answered a lot of questions for me.
But I'm curious to know, have you ever heard of anyone having an encounter with two, let's call them species of preachers?
What kind of creatures?
Two different kinds.
Two different kinds of creatures.
Two different kinds of creatures.
And then I would also like to know the name of the guy that you were talking about just a second ago that woke up on the table.
Travis Wallen.
Travis Wallen, yeah.
And I've heard of many people having, in fact last night's guest had encounters with two different types of creatures.
It's actually quite common.
Yes, the episode last night.
It was actually more than two, wasn't it?
Art or no?
I heard him describe two.
One that approximated the graves and the other some sort of scaly creature.
Okay, alright.
I know there's at least two, yeah.
But yeah, I hear those stories quite frequently as well.
Clifford Stone is another guy who talks about having interactions with more than one type of feature, yeah.
Absolutely.
Harold in Ohio, you're on the air.
Hi, Roswell, it's Arden.
Thank you.
I have never told this to anybody before because I thought I was nuts.
After hearing last night's program and hearing this stuff tonight, I don't think that I'm so nuts.
As a child, you know, I'm almost 50 years old, so there was no technology.
We had three channels like everybody else did.
And I remember being outside, and I was probably four or five years old, and when I looked up into the stars, there were three beams of light chasing each other across the sky.
And I went into the house and told my parents about what I saw and told them to come outside to see this.
Right.
By my parents never to tell this story to anybody.
The school and started telling, you know, like school teachers and people like that.
Within three, four days, three guys, three older guys in black suits showed up Listen, you're telling me a story to anybody because what I saw were stars in the sky.
And my question is, with last night's guest about these groups of people being, you know, transported up or pulled in or however you describe it, and then you have the gentleman on tonight, Right.
Zimbabwe.
Alright, well, it's entirely possible.
massive amounts of groups of people. Zimbabwe.
It seems that, you know, in the town that they were talking about,
that it seems like more masses of people are starting to see these things.
Do they think they're connected, that they want to show themselves to just
larger groups of people? Alright, well it's entirely possible. Look, we don't
have any way of absolutely verifying that there's any connection
between one thing and another thing.
We can only leave that to you.
You listen to the descriptions given at these various locations around the world, and if you don't begin to see the similarities between the cases, then I don't know what to say about you.
Florida brings Greg.
Hello.
Yeah, hi.
Good evening, guys.
My question relates to this control issue, basically.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't even think that we really even know our own human history.
And if we were to find out that, say, we were a seeded civilization from somewhere else or whatever, wouldn't that be a welcome fact to everyone?
As opposed to... You really mean that?
Yes, I do!
As opposed to?
You mean...
Adam and Eve, and... Yeah, as opposed to all the stories and all the nonsense that we're taught.
I mean, we're not even taught the real history of our country.
Nonsense?
Now, listen.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You're way down there in Florida with all those Northeast people, right?
Well, Northeast, I'm in the southern part of Florida, but I was born in Florida.
No, no, no, no.
You're in Florida with all those Northeast people that have retired down there.
Probably.
Yeah, well you need to go up to Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi.
That's only a state away, sir.
It's only a state away, but it's in another universe.
Look here, by the way, Tobias, you don't have a cold, do you?
I do, I'm sorry.
You do, okay.
I'm trying to regulate it as best I can, I'm sorry.
I understand.
All right, so in the South, you go on up into Georgia and some of those areas, and the Bible Belt, and you know, I'm sorry, I reacted to his question pretty severely, but I know what it's like.
Tobias, how do you think people would react in your area if all of a sudden they found out that we were ceded here by an alien An alien world, an alien culture.
I don't think it would go over well.
I mean, you know, I love living in the South.
There's great people here, but part of the culture here is that they are very religious, and I don't think it would be received well if that was revealed.
And I don't think most places in the world it would be received very well.
I mean, how would Vatican City take that?
Well, there you go.
It's not just the South, either.
I don't mean to just suggest it's the South.
It's the whole Christian culture.
Listen, hold tight, everybody, and we'll be right back.
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, this is Dark Matter, Raging in the Night.
Tobias McGriff and James Fox are my guests, and we've been talking about a variety of UFO sightings and encounters, and yes, indeed, Dulcey, by the way, is, of course, in New Mexico.
Uh, thought I would add that.
And jump back to the line.
So many people waiting.
Uh, let's go to Bruce in Missouri.
Bruce, you're on the air.
Gentlemen, have you ever heard of, uh, oh, like a triangle being over, like, a detention facility?
Have I?
A triangle?
Yeah.
Just sitting stationary over it.
Over what?
Like a detention facility?
A detention facility, okay.
Not particularly for me.
I've had a personal close-up experience with a triangle, thank you, but not over a detention facility.
Gentlemen?
That's a pretty specific scenario.
I've never heard of that specifically, but I've definitely heard of the triangle scenario for sure.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, there was a lot of triangles.
They had triangles, I think, over Phoenix.
There was some triangle footage that came out of Fresno a couple of years ago.
Very impressive, actually.
That seemed to be a very large, triangular-shaped platform.
And some people had said that it was something that the military was responsible for flying.
I'm not saying that all of them are, but I'm just saying that it's called the TR-3 or the TR-3B.
Something like this.
You didn't remember that?
No, not by that designation, but I had one right over my head.
Make a humming noise?
Didn't make any noise at all.
No.
Okay, yeah.
I could hear crickets a quarter of a mile away.
No humming.
Oh, wow.
Wow.
I won't bore people with it again tonight.
Georgia has been the big state tonight.
Kenneth, you're on the air.
Hey, Art.
This is Kenneth.
I just want to let you know I'm a big fan.
New listener.
I have a question.
Back in, I guess, 93, I was wondering if Tobias had any reports of, like, I guess they look like stars.
I was working in Valdosta, Georgia, on a construction site, and it's like 1 o'clock in the morning, and I looked up in the sky, and there's like three dots that look like stars up in the sky, in the stars, that they would move really really fast from like one to the east to the
west, you know, zigzag, just back and forth.
And it would be like... Stars don't do that, sir. Yes, sir, I know. I was just wondering if he had
heard anything and as far as paranormal, I've seen paranormal things my whole life as far as
spirits and all. I'm a big believer in that. Well, in Valdosta, you're in the right spot
as far as what we're looking in for the Leary film that I'm doing.
93, you said, that's a little more recent than what we're looking at, but there's an article on the website that we had mentioned, artbillgoodstuff.com, if you'll scroll down, there's an article called Neon's Gone Mad, and I believe that it's right outside of Valdosta, and it talks about these neon lights, and it's a great description, Neon's Gone Mad.
And they're doing basically exactly what you're talking about, so you may want to check that article out and see if it rings true with you.
Okay.
Jevias, how long are you going to have ArtBellGoodStuff.com up?
I did the hosting for a month, so I guess at least a month, right?
Okay, that's good enough.
Yeah, that's absolutely good enough.
You'll leave everything up there for that period of time?
I will, yep, absolutely.
Okay, because I guess, you know, it's really getting swamped, and those who can't make it in tonight can do it later.
Well, James had mentioned he wished he had this and that.
If he wants to, if he has some stuff, we'll put that up there and we can make it even a little bigger than it is as the days go by.
Sounds good to me.
I'd be delighted to do that.
And, guys, it's called the TR-3B.
The number three B as in boy.
And it's supposed to be some sort of, you know, super secret Air Force spy plane.
But check it out on the internet.
It's cool.
All right.
Minnesota and Kevin.
Hello, Kevin.
Good evening, gentlemen.
How are we doing today?
Great.
How are you?
Doing very well.
Just traveling across Pennsylvania.
My question is this.
Every once in a while, I've been listening to your program, Art.
Everybody once in a while goes back to the religion part that everybody would be bent out of shape if this stuff was actually real.
Now, I'm not saying I don't believe, because I do believe.
But I also am a Christian.
I do believe in God.
But what makes us think that God just stopped with us?
Why couldn't He done it?
Absolutely nothing, sir, and it may well be that when we finally meet officially with extraterrestrials, they'll come down and they'll have some version of the Bible.
But I think what we've been...
Yeah, what we've been talking about though is extraterrestrials who would introduce themselves as our makers.
Now that would be a problem.
Yeah, I can understand that.
Yeah, there you go.
We got bones in the ground from dinosaurs, right?
Well, God created that, so, you know, that's what I look at.
I mean, even if it would come down and they say this, because I look at it this way, you know, humans are kind of, you know, gave us free will, we do what we want, and we're being told that we're killing the planet, but what makes them think that, you know, these are, you know, with their free will that they could just come here and do what they want, you know what I mean?
How do you know that dinosaurs were created by God, sir?
Well, I figured everything is.
I mean, he created the Earth, he created the universe, so I'm assuming why stop what this does.
I'm with you.
I'm with you all the way, okay?
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why it would be a big, big problem.
Let's go north of the border to Canada, and Chris, you're on the air.
Good evening, gentlemen.
Good evening.
My question is for either Mr. Bell or the guests.
It doesn't really matter.
I would like to know if any of you have heard of Riley Martin.
He has a show on Sirius on the Howard 100 Channels.
Yes.
And I would just like to know if you think that there's any validity to his stories.
I personally have not heard his stories.
I know of him and that's it for me.
Either one of you two?
I know he's an alien.
He's an alien contact to you, right?
I'm not familiar with his story though by James.
Are you?
You know, I gotta be honest with you gentlemen, I can't hear very well.
It's a lot of background noise.
There is, and I just cut some of it out.
Riley Martin is who he was talking about.
He's apparently a talk show host and contactee somewhere here on Sirius.
Okay, so yeah, no, I don't know anything about him.
I'm sorry.
No, that's quite alright.
Thank you for the comment anyway.
North Carolina and Jim, hi.
Yes, hi.
Megan Roswell's run.
I mean, I'm a fan of yours for years, and also I've been listening to you for 20 years now.
I'm from Portsmouth, New Hampshire, originally, which was a SAC Air Force base, and it was a 509th wing, which was Roswell.
I had my first of three encounters back in 72 with another witness, daytime disk.
Took off straight in the air.
Second one was in 1982 with my girlfriend on the beach.
of New Hampshire in the summer, right over our heads. It was a ball of light with a trail.
It was definitely a craft. The last time was with Stephen Greer, who got a group of us up in New
Hampshire, about 10 miles from the airbase, and we called in a couple, three of them.
And Stephen Greer was sitting next to me, and he said, I said, boy, this happened to you a lot.
He goes, yeah, they like me.
STEVE MIRANDA Stephen Greer, I know that both of you gentlemen know who Stephen Greer is, and he
used to conduct these tours out and called them in, and with some degree of success, actually.
There's a lot of people that are doing it.
This gentleman is a witness.
You know about him?
Yes.
Sir, are you still on the phone with us?
No, he's not.
Okay, I was just curious.
I was curious how detailed the sighting was, how close they got to the object.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm trying to keep the noise level down when we have So many lines up, we get a lot of noise.
Yeah, no, I get it.
No, I'm definitely familiar with Greer.
I know he's had that recent film that came out, Sirius.
Sirius, yes.
Sirius, yes.
By the way, this gentleman, hold on a second.
While we're on the subject of Sirius, I'm getting a lot of messages tonight of people who've been getting disconnected.
We're looking into that, Sirius XM is looking into that.
It's because of the load.
We believe we had sort of a group phone call about this today and the load on the servers has been absolutely overwhelming.
So we're doing the best we can and trying to make it better.
Bob in Minnesota, you're on the air.
Well, maybe I didn't push the button.
Let's try it again.
Bob in Minnesota, now you're on the air.
Yes, hello.
How you doing, Art?
That's great.
I had a kind of like a thought there, like, I don't know, are these things violent?
They don't sound like they are with the Army bringing them underground and stuff like that.
And I had a thought that, you know, what if there was a crash and somebody kind of hit one of these aliens and called you instead of the Army?
I wouldn't be surprised, Bob.
I wouldn't be surprised at all.
That has happened to me any number of times.
Right.
And then wouldn't it be kind of cool that you'd have first-hand information and be able to come down and see it for yourself?
Can I take this opportunity to mention this?
Because exactly, sir, what you just said, one of our benefactors for the 701 is a very, very successful businessman, Larry Fischella, out of Philadelphia.
And he'd heard all these different stories about these military guys that had, you know, evidence, photographic evidence, or documentation, or pieces of an alleged crash site, or something like this.
You know, there's been many, many tales over the decades of these bits of evidence that have been swept away or swept under the carpet or sent off to D.C.
and never to be seen or heard from ever again.
And Larry said, you know, he's a very wealthy guy.
He said, well, why don't we put up an award, reward?
And he's very serious about this, 4701.
Of $100,000 for anyone who can produce such evidence.
And I can vouch for the guy.
He could easily cover this kind of reward.
So we did.
And we announced it actually a couple of months back.
Lee Spiegel and Open Minds.
Actually, Johnny wrote an article about it.
And we got some pretty good response initially.
And then I got a couple of emails and phone messages.
From people that say, well, we're going to need a lot more to come forward with the stuff we've got.
And I'd like to make the announcement today that if anybody out there, we have an active $100,000 reward for evidence photographic.
You know, it's obviously, one says, well, what defines clear evidence?
You know, anything official that's photographic or video filmed.
Would be considered very good evidence.
If there's any particular smoking gun document or a piece of alleged crash from a crash site, we consider that to be evidence.
And if anyone out there listening is in possession of such evidence and would like to come forward and feel like they're going to jeopardize possibly their pension or anything else, we could generate a lot more than $100,000.
You've got my word on that.
To go out to 701themovie.com and please, pretty please with sugar on top, get in touch with us.
If they want to speak face-to-face, we can make arrangements to do that as well.
But I did want to take the opportunity, Art Bell, if you don't mind.
$100,000.
All right, James.
That's great.
The trouble is the following.
I said this at the beginning of the program, and I'll repeat it for you now.
95% of the time, when somebody sees a UFO or a creature, They don't have a camera.
About 4% of the time, the people are in shock, and if they have a camera, they move it when they try to take a picture, it comes out blurry.
In about 1% of the times, People have a good camera.
They've got a steady hand.
Despite what they're seeing, they take a clear, perfect picture.
And everybody says, oh, that's too clear.
It's got to be fake.
It's Photoshopped.
So I don't know how you ever are going to get to the point where you're going to say, hey, that's the one.
There's $100,000 for you, buddy.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I hear what you're saying, Art, I really do, but there are, you know, even if it's zero, zero, zero, zero, you know, percent, one percent chance of coming across this, there's so many military guys that I've talked to that maybe during their official duties at White Sands, New Mexico, or Vandenberg Air Force Base, where they were to document missile launches, where they've had anomalous objects enter frame, you know, disc-shaped objects. And these things have
disappeared and there are probably military guys out there listening, possibly
tonight, that might know where those are and it might be a bit of a risk for
them to come forward.
But if any of them out there listening would come forward, I can assure you we
can make it worth your while financially so you wouldn't have to. So, like I
said, I'm aware of all those things and I know the likelihood is rare, but I
know it's out there.
We know it's out there, and we'd love to get our hands on something like that, and we'd love to compensate someone properly for taking the risk to come forward.
Okay.
Fine.
Caller, do you have anything else I've held you on all this time?
Oh, that's fine.
No, I just thought it'd be kind of cool if I seen a crash and You know, I'd rent my truck and then give you a call.
All right, well, $100,000 on the line, so by all means.
David in Mississippi, you're on the air.
Hello, Art of Oswald Studios.
Thank you.
Yeah, actually, it's more of a statement, I guess, or consideration.
I'm a retired Air Force 24 years, so I'll say exactly what I did.
How about a danger or a warning when you're looking into why would the government control or cover up?
If multiple races were to ever visit this planet, they would be the best of their races.
They would be the greatest.
They would come here on a mission and they would return at possibly 40 to over 100 light years away.
The technology of them moving through space or moving Through time or whatever, that is the most controllable, most valuable weapon that the U.S.
government or any government on this earth could ever, ever obtain.
And that's, I think, number one and first.
Why would the government ever just envelop and control and need the technology so badly?
And when they don't know how it works, until they do know how it works, until they have a defense against it, then they're going to always, Control and control and control.
And it's very, I think it's very, very, very scary and dangerous how powerful the U.S.
government is in obtaining that and controlling it.
And I wish you guys the best.
I enjoy listening to you, but my goodness, please, gosh, I know what the government can do.
All right.
Thank you very much.
This caller was right on the money.
Anybody who can get here from X number of light years away is in control of a technology that people would do a lot more than kill individuals for.
So, you know, it's a very, very good point.
There's so much mixed up into all of this that bodies, oh sure.
Frank in Illinois, you're on the air.
Hi Art, thank you.
I'd like to ask your guests this question, please.
What do you guys make of the diametrically opposing theories, if you will, between Dr. Stephen Greer, who proposes that aliens are here for benevolent reasons, and then the theory being proposed by Dr. David Jacobs, who believes that we're at the end stage of a program in which an alien race has created alien-human hybrids And that they're at the point of either an integration program or there's going to be some created catastrophe in which the human race is going to be eliminated in order to bring in this hybrid species.
Alright, I think that is a superb question.
I'm going to have to ask that everybody hold tight.
Caller, thank you very much.
It is such a good question.
The opposing theory is Dr. Greer.
Who thinks they're good guys, tries to encourage them down with flashlights and all kinds of blinky things, and have a conversation with them.
Then we have Dr. Jacobs, who doesn't think they're nice guys at all, and will do us great harm.
Either one or both are possible.
That's what it is, all right.
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, this is Dark Matter.
And I think we've got something very interesting on the table.
Tobias McGriff, James Fox are with me.
And the question is, when you look at the diametrically opposed views of Greer and Jacobs, what do you gentlemen think?
I mean, one thinks they're good guys.
And they're here to be benevolent with us, and the other thinks that they're dangerous and we should watch out.
What do you think?
Anybody?
I think that my gut feeling is that, you know, one is as speculative as the other.
Like, how can we possibly know?
And then the other part of me thinks, you know, if they are here, they have to be really advanced.
And if they wanted to do whatever they wanted to do, they could just do it.
I guess my conclusion would be is that I don't think we necessarily have a reason to be afraid, but we have little reason to be hopeful.
Good answer.
Well, you know, here's the thing.
This is just my humble view.
I could be absolutely dead wrong.
It seems like they're always at least a beat ahead of us.
If you look historically at the sightings, dating all the way back to the 19th century with the big airships, Different craft and it seems to get one step more advanced, one step more advanced constantly.
Can I say one thing about that one step ahead though?
I've got two cats and a laser pointer and I can put that thing on the ground and they will kill each other over it and I always purposely stay one step ahead but I can stay like a thousand steps ahead if I want to and sometimes when I think about the craft you know like with the Washington case when they're just circling Our jets with impunity and just basically flying circles around them.
We were joking about that the other night.
Sometimes I think it's, you know, cats with a laser pointer, the way they're interacting with us.
What a good analogy.
Yeah, so my feeling is, is that, you know, if they were here to do us harm, we'd be honored.
Yes, exactly.
So, you know, I think it's, like I said, this is just my humble opinion.
I think it's a fairly benign.
To me, it seems more like under some sort of surveillance that they're just kind of monitoring our activities.
You know, the whole nuclear age, the atomic age, and they came back about the modern day UFO sightings.
They seem to have interest in our nuclear capabilities.
Oh, boy, do they ever.
Listen, I had a guest on the other night who said, look, all of this really, really got wild after we exploded the first nuclear weapon.
And it was his theory, it was his theory, that so many came to see us and inspect our planet after that happened that they bumped into each other and that accounts for a lot of the crashes that occurred way back when.
Well, yeah, there was also the speculation, I mean, it seems kind of funny that our radar would affect their navigation, but that's certainly one of the theories.
During that time in the Southwest, we were experimenting with all kinds of different types of radar.
Somehow that might have affected their navigation, but as far as I'm concerned, this is all kind of speculation on our behalf.
But the one thing that seems evident is that we know they're real.
What's behind them, we don't honestly know what their agenda necessarily is.
They seem to be one step ahead of us.
The government, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't really know.
In my, once again, I have to clearly say, I just don't think they know.
I know that they know they're real, but... Alright, listen, time is really, really short, guys.
Eric in Wisconsin, very quickly.
Yes, I have a question for you guys, since you do documentaries and movies, is ever since the 50s, they've been coming out with TV shows and movies that deal with aliens, and in your opinion, do you think This is a way of Hollywood kind of saturating our communities and everything with aliens so that it'll smooth out the cultural shock of when we actually do get visited.
If so, sir, then these two guys are part of it.
Yeah, exactly.
I'm sorry we can't answer that.
No, I'm just kidding.
What's your address?
No, I'm joking.
I think it would contribute to that, certainly.
We see murders on TV so much that we're desensitized to it, so I think it has that effect indirectly, but if somebody's doing it, I don't know about it.
Can I say one thing quickly?
Can I offer to read everybody out there a letter that we got from Steven Spielberg I'm going to go as quickly as I can.
I wasn't ready to share this with people until fairly recently, but I'm going to do it right now, and I just have to find it.
Give me one second.
I promise you I'll get it there.
Here it goes.
This was a letter that he wrote Larry King about watching my film, I Know What I Saw.
It's on the History Channel every now and again.
And he said, Dear Larry, with great curiosity, I watched the documentary you sent over and found it very compelling.
Personally, I would like to think that we are not alone, and even though I have devoted a generous percentage of my movies to extraterrestrial-related themes, I, for one, have never seen a UFO.
That's so unfair!
I hope you will continue to pursue this topic on your program, and that someday our government will offer a total Disclosure about what they know about unidentified flying objects and their true and natural origins.
All my best.
Steven Spielberg.
Steven.
Yep.
Isn't that interesting?
It is.
Margie in California.
Not much time, but you're on the air.
Hey, I'd like to say hi to you, Bell, and backwards to you come.
Anyway, I'm calling from the town of Sea Crane and I have a very rare blood type.
It's a negative.
The only way a negative, very rare, there's like 10% of us in the world or something, that have a... It's also positive.
Most people get their blood supposedly because we made it with monkeys.
There is no monkey gene in those who are Rh negative.
But the point being that most of the people get their blood supposedly because we made
it with monkeys.
Okay?
There is no monkey gene in those who are Rh negative.
They had to have been engineered.
You're calling the rest of us?
I'm all positive.
So you're telling me I'm a monkey?
You are.
I'm no monkey in this, girl.
But if it separates us in a small percentile, we have supposedly lower than body temperature.
Okay, fine.
So it's three monkeys and a negative lady.
Tell Bob I said hi, will you?
Listen, we're out of time.
Guys, I don't know how to thank you.
Tobias McGriff, who said we'd have a hell of a night, you were sure right.
Tobias, the website is?
Artbillgoodstuff.com, and if I can just say that the Leary movie will be out in 2014, so guys, keep an eye out for that.
That's all I want to plug.
Okay.
Plugged it is, James?
Hey, thank you so much for having me, Art.
Welcome back, and if anybody out there has any evidence they'd like to share or discuss any cases, Modern Day Cases, 701themovie.com.
It's been an honor, Art.
Thank you so much for having me on here.
It has been an honor.
Indeed, and we'll do it again.
So, three monkeys and a negative lady say goodnight.
See you later.
Bye-bye.
Oh, God, that was great.
That wasn't Edna, was it?
That's it, everybody.
Have a grand night.
We'll do this again tomorrow.
It is dark matter in the nighttime, raging through the night.
▲
Export Selection