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Sept. 19, 2013 - Art Bell

03:29:12

Dark Matter with Art Bell - NASA'S LADEE Moon Mission & Curiosity's Mission to Mars' Gale Crater - Richard C. Hoagland

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	Thanks for watching! Please subscribe!
	Thanks for watching! Please subscribe!
	The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sand, or the strength of an oak when used deep in the ground.
	The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
	To add all these things in our memories home.
	I'll need you soon to help me To find me
	To find me Yeah
	Ride, ride my sweet soul Take this place, on this trip
	Just for me Ride, take a free ride
	Take my place, have my seat It's for free
	I worked like a slave for years Swept your heart, put you in my fears
	Loved you in my life before, man But by now, I know I should have
	Ride Wanna take a ride?
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, exclusively on Sirius XM Radio, this is Dark Matter with your host, Art Bell.
	Now, here's Art.
	Extra-terrestrial radio, actually.
	Broadcast from my home in Pahrump, Nevada, immediately adjacent to Area 51.
	Couple of, uh, a few programming notes, actually.
	If you want to follow me, I'm Artbell51 on Twitter.
	And I go there and make announcements every now and then.
	That's Artbell5151 on Twitter.
	Email me.
	Probably the best email to use is Artbell at Artbell.com.
	How's that?
	Artbell at Artbell.com.
	It will reach me.
	Trust me.
	Now, I was told that this program now reaches Canadian listeners.
	Okay, we're going to find out about that right now.
	I have just left three phone lines open, and I would like them filled with three tasty Canadians.
	We used to call Canadians tasty Canadians.
	Anyway, if you're in Canada, you can help us confirm that you're really there, that you really can call by calling.
	So call right now if you're in Canada.
	Only, only if you're in Canada, call 1-855-732-5836.
	Call now.
	Or 1-855-REALUFO.
	That's 1-855-REAL-UFO.
	Only from Canada.
	So we're going to find out if we've really got Canada there.
	Now, updating on a few things.
	The weekend schedule.
	Here's what's going to happen, I am told.
	And they told me this.
	Over the next... and by the way, you can screen those Canadians.
	Make sure they're really Canadians before you put them on hold, because I'm going to talk to them.
	Make sure they're Canadians.
	The weekend.
	We are going to do something interesting over the weekend, meaning Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
	We're going to replay three shows twice That's right, three shows twice.
	We're going to pick three from the week and replay them twice.
	Actually, every day.
	Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
	So if you missed something or a friend did, they're going to get a chance to probably hear it.
	Then I got a lot of emails about how are all the ABs.
	They're very well, thank you.
	And that's Art Bell, Aaron Bell, Asia Bell.
	And then at least as many about my cats.
	My cats are fine.
	This is pretty incredible.
	Who I'm sure you all remember is now, check it out, 22 years old.
	A lot of you will have been listening way back when, when he bounded into our yard.
	Yet he is now 22 years old.
	And his bones are stiff, but he motivates around.
	And when he has to, he can run at about 1,000 miles an hour.
	Abby is fine.
	Dolly is fine.
	All three of these cats have been around the world now.
	One, two, three times.
	They've been around the world three times.
	That's right.
	I shipped them back and forth and they had to go through Europe.
	Scandinavia, actually, so leave that to get to the Philippines.
	Remember, folks, if you want to wish me well, I'm stealing from Rush here.
	If you want to wish me well, it's Roswell's.
	Roswell's Art, that means welcome back, happy to have you.
	If not, then just don't say a word.
	You know, have nothing good to say, don't say anything.
	From the times of India, and this is really, really sad.
	There were predictions that 2013 would see an upsurge in solar activity, the sun would be going nuts, and geomagnetic storms abounding, communication systems a-fallin', you know, just, we'd really get it.
	Well, hasn't worked out that way.
	Something went wrong.
	Something terribly wrong.
	This is the weakest solar cycle that we have had in a hundred years.
	I repeat, a hundred years.
	Now I don't know if my Canadian colors are on there or not.
	Oh yes, I guess, I guess, okay.
	Let's find out, shall we, very quickly?
	I'm very curious.
	And Dark matter.
	There, I think we've done it.
	You are on the air.
	Hello?
	Okay, I'm not getting good vibes yet.
	Hmm.
	Was that a Canadian?
	Hello there!
	Hello!
	Hi!
	How are you?
	Not bad.
	Have you had your station on in Canada, like Toronto, like AM radio?
	No.
	Oh, okay.
	Maybe I'm... No, we're on Sirius XM.
	Where have you been?
	Oh, no, I think I've heard of you on the radio two or three years ago on AM radio, but maybe I'm just mistaking you with someone else.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	You're not mistaking me with anybody.
	I was on AM radio for, well, most of my adult life.
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah, because my brother used to listen to you all the time at 3 a.m.
	and 3 or 4 a.m.
	That's right.
	Nice.
	Wait a minute.
	Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
	Where are you?
	You're in Toronto, is that right?
	Yeah, just in Tobago.
	All right.
	And you're a serious XM listener?
	Yeah, for the past three years.
	Okay.
	And you found this show how?
	Well, I listened to Rotten Tomatoes on this channel.
	Yes.
	And I just finished work at 10 o'clock, and the station was on, so I started listening to it, and I said, hey, that's the same voice as what I heard a few years ago.
	So I have Rotten Tomatoes to thank for your being here.
	Correct.
	That's really cool.
	All right, Rotten Tomatoes, thank you very much.
	There is one tasty Canadian.
	Thank you.
	You're very welcome.
	Take care.
	And I think, right, you too.
	Let's try going to another tasty Canadian.
	Hello there.
	Hello.
	You are on Dark Matter, and I hope you're in Canada.
	Yes, I am.
	What part?
	West Coast, Vancouver.
	Okay, West Coast.
	And how, pray tell, did you hear about the show?
	I was a listener for Ever, just for years and years and years.
	And I had wanted, I actually had kind of wanted a Sirius Radio for a while, I just hadn't bothered.
	And then I heard somewhere, somehow, I think I was keeping an eye on your website or I saw an announcement somewhere, I'm not even 100% sure where, but as soon as I saw that you were coming back on here, that was enough, I bought it right away.
	All right, well I really, really appreciate your call, and it's good to know that you're listening up there in Canada.
	Yeah, just great to hear your voice again, and I'll be listening from now on.
	All right, my friend, take care.
	Take it easy.
	Bye.
	I think we've got a problem with our software here for controlling these phones.
	We'll straighten that out.
	I may have one more tasty Canadian to go, so let's make that switch and go to the next tasty Canadian, possibly here.
	I don't know.
	You're on Dark Matter.
	Hello?
	Hi, Eric.
	How are you doing?
	I got a little bit of a cold today, and I'm calling you from Montreal, Canada.
	Montreal, all right.
	Well, that kind of does it.
	I mean, that's all the way across the country.
	So cool.
	It works.
	You have any trouble getting through?
	No, I didn't have no trouble getting through.
	I just hit the redial.
	I wanted to ask you about the signal on XM.
	Sure.
	Now, I get it.
	We have a repeater here in Montreal.
	The repeater was down today, but I was able to bring my antenna Put it outside on my balcony, but still receive the signal.
	Wow!
	Alright, now the way the Sirius satellites work is really cool.
	What they do is they go from Canada all the way down to the South Pole and then make a figure 8 and come back up.
	And as they're over Canada, they sort of loiter, they spend a longer time, it's the kind of orbit it's in.
	And so it spends a longer time over your head, about 29,000 miles above Earth.
	Okay.
	And you know what they say, the higher the antenna, the bigger the signal.
	Now that kind of a signal that they send, is that sort of like a beam of light, like a dime almost?
	Because I noticed if I move the antenna a little bit, you can almost like lose the signal.
	Right.
	Well, yeah, it's a kind of spot beam, but it's a big, broad one.
	It's sort of like a laser?
	Well, no, more like a flashlight.
	Yeah, okay.
	You know, the old-fashioned flashlights?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So it kind of covers a lot.
	Okay, listen, thank you very, very much.
	Nice hearing you.
	I wanted to be sure we were getting into Canada.
	All right, there we go.
	Yeah, I'm listening to you on the phone.
	So, how about that?
	No question about Canada anymore, I guess, huh?
	The Pope.
	Amazingly to me, this is a real wow, the Pope is warning that the Catholic Church's moral structure might fall like a, his words, house of cards if it doesn't balance its divisive rules about abortion and gays and contraception.
	My goodness gracious, what kind of Pope is this?
	He's really going for change!
	Now, I'm married to a Catholic, as you know, and these are indeed serious matters to so many Catholics, certainly here in the U.S.
	That's really big news.
	This Pope is going to make big changes.
	You can stop calling in Canada.
	We've got it covered, apparently, but you'll be welcome to the show.
	Mexico has trouble.
	The horror there, you know, storm after storm and now dirt and rock come tumbling down a hillside.
	There's 97 dead.
	They're really going through it in Mexico.
	In Syria, they're moving around chemical weapons like a little shell game.
	Meanwhile, Al-Qaeda militants seized a town near the Turkish border on Thursday after expelling Western-backed rebels from the area.
	Demonstrating the growing power of jihadis, a great, just absolutely great al-Qaeda militants take a town near the Turkish border.
	Just perfect.
	All right.
	Blew away too much time.
	Richard C. Hoagland is coming up in a moment.
	My old friend Richard.
	Richard C. Hoagland is a former NASA consultant and former science advisor to Walter Cronkite and CBS News, all during the epic Apollo missions to the moon.
	That must have been so cool.
	He's author of two best-selling books on his 40 years of intensive research into the possibility of a former ancient solar system-wide high-tech civilization.
	The Monuments of Mars, A City on the Edge of Forever, and with Mike Barra, Dark Mission, The Secret History of NASA.
	Hoagland is currently Principal Investigator of the not-for-profit Space Research and Public Policy Organization, The Enterprise mission.
	It's been a long time.
	Coming up in a moment, Richard C. Can you see it now?
	Hoagland.
	So from space and 29,000 miles above your head, I'm Art Bell, and this is Dark Matter.
	I'm Art Bell.
	It's XM, baby, and we're very serious.
	To call Art Bell, please manipulate your communication device and call 1-855-REAL-UFO.
	That's 1-855-732-5836.
	Ha ha!
	Can you tell I like that one?
	Always play it at the beginning of the show or near the beginning, because then I can play it again.
	It's XM, baby.
	He knows how to do it, doesn't he?
	Alright, time for Richard C. Hoagland.
	Speaking of heartaches, here he is from New Mexico.
	Richard, man, it's been a long time since I've heard your voice.
	Cydonias, Art.
	Sedonias!
	Ha ha ha ha!
	Sedonias.
	Well, we don't do UFOs, so it has to be Sedonia.
	Yeah, you know, now I know why Rush did what he did.
	It saves so much time.
	Oh, it really does.
	And redundancy.
	Richard, I'm hearing noise and weirdness on your phone line.
	Shouldn't be.
	Not on my end.
	Um, yeah, it's kind of a, well, it's down a little bit.
	It's a little bit better.
	It's kind of a weird noise.
	That's weird because we had the phone coming out here a couple days ago checking everything just to make sure.
	Oh, that would have done it.
	Uh, there's like a tone and then some noise and a tone and some noise.
	That's bizarre.
	It's probably them.
	Them.
	Them.
	All right, well, one of the breaks, we'll see what we can do about it.
	All right, look, this is going to be a fun night, I know it is.
	I'm looking at your first image, and we're going to argue about that.
	Okay.
	And that's, what, 1967?
	1967, unmanned surveyor spacecraft on the moon after sunset.
	Yeah, I know, but shattered lunar dome?
	Well, think of this.
	You've got a TV camera, this is an old-style Vidicon TV camera, which is insensitive as hell.
	You know, I don't know if you ever were in a TV studio back then, but they were really, they were the best we had and they were terrible compared to what we have now, CCDs and all that.
	I'm buying it so far, sure.
	Okay.
	And the idea was to, after sunset on the moon, which has no air, no atmosphere, to look toward the horizon when the sun got like about one solar diameter below The horizon, which takes like an hour or so, because the moon rotates really slowly, like, you know, once every 30 days.
	So then they started taking pictures.
	And what they noticed immediately on several of the surveyor missions, not all of them, because they landed in different places on the moon, but many of them, was they had this incredible, what they called, beaded set of glows, horizon glow, Along the western horizon.
	And it was very bright, and completely unexpected.
	Should not have existed, because in a vacuum, when you cut the sun off, it should be like, you know, cutting off with a sharp knife.
	You know, one moment you're in daylight, and the next moment you're in pitch dark.
	Okay, so that I understand, this is a lunar sunset, basically, right?
	After sunset.
	After lunar sunset.
	After, okay.
	Alright, got it.
	Like a half hour to an hour.
	Right.
	And above the brilliant beating along the horizon, and you see those little jagged dark things sticking up?
	Sure.
	Those are rock shadows.
	The horizon here is around two miles away.
	Because you're on the moon, the moon is smaller than the Earth.
	On the Earth, the horizon is roughly 30 miles away.
	If you're six foot high, and the lunar camera was on surveyor at about a six foot elevation, human size, And then above that brilliant beating was all this light.
	Now they had expected if they took time exposures, because these cameras actually could take a time exposure, and they could record stars down to about sixth magnitude, which is about the dimmest star that a human eye can see in a good dark place like a desert or on an ocean.
	I can see stars.
	In the shot.
	Yeah, sure.
	The bright one over on the right is, I think, Ann Terry's.
	All right, look, I'd better stop.
	I'd better tell everybody, look, what we're talking about is on artbell.com.
	So everybody listen, you know, if you want to follow along, you really have to go to the website, www.artbell.com.
	And Keith, on the right-hand side, has put a thing called 919 Hoagland Images for tonight, making it really easy.
	Just click on that.
	Okay.
	And that will take you to a series.
	We're going to go through these by the numbers.
	A series of photographs.
	All right, this is taken by Surveyor 6, first one, November of 67.
	Yep.
	And my question, Richard, just to cut to the chase here, you're not trying to tell us that there's really a shattered lunar dome that we're looking at, are you?
	Or are you?
	Why would I not be telling you that?
	That's the truth.
	Okay, uh, fine.
	Why would there be a dome on the moon?
	Well, because you're on a place where there's no air.
	If you ever had people, and they were kind of like us, needed oxygen, needed pressure and all that, you have to have something to contain the atmosphere.
	Oh, I've got that.
	But, um, excuse me, but this is a camera that would, to take this picture, would almost have to be Inside the dome, right?
	No.
	Why?
	Well, because it looks like it's covering it, sort of.
	Well, hang on.
	Let's assume a hypothetical model.
	Or am I looking at the outer edge of the dome?
	Exactly.
	If you're outside, you're looking in.
	And if you're inside the shadow dome, you're looking out.
	The key thing is that it's a wall of geometric glass.
	Now, we've all had the experience of driving west at sunset.
	Or east at sunrise on a long trip with windshield full of bugs and scratches and dust and all that, and you know you can barely see out of it because of a phenomenon known as scattering.
	The sunlight bounces off every little imperfection on the glass, including scratches if there are any, and you can't see out because of the haze created by the bouncing sunlight, right?
	Yes, I even see a scratch on there like it was Well, that's probably a hair in the enlarger when NASA did this picture.
	This was scanned from a NASA print I got, an early generation print I got, from the National Space Science Data Center at Goddard Space Flight Center outside Washington, D.C.
	years and years and years ago.
	In fact, I probably got it before you and I even first met.
	All right, but here's the thing, Richard.
	Please don't explain the definition of a dome to me again.
	I understand that.
	I guess what I'm really asking is, come on!
	Dome?
	If it's a dome, and I acknowledge it looks like one with a hole in it, but if it's a dome, that means, A, we put it there, or the Russians put it there, or the extraterrestrials put it there.
	Or what?
	We put it there a long, long, long, long time ago.
	Okay, run that one by me.
	The solar system is four and a half billion years old as currently figured, right?
	Sure.
	Humans on Earth are supposedly a few million years on this planet, almost sapiens, sapiens.
	Right.
	That's a huge amount of time to have all kinds of things happen which the archaeological record would have no record of because it doesn't preserve stuff.
	There's a TV show called Earth Without People, which I presume you've seen?
	Oh yes, very good.
	And they show how rapidly, how incredibly rapidly, like in a couple of centuries, everything we think of as amazing is gone.
	And in a thousand years, it's dust underfoot and you'd only find it by some kind of chemical assay or digging in the ground for stuff that was protected and buried.
	The difference is, on the moon, Where there's no air, no oxygen, no rusting, no degradation, and the only erosion is from micrometeorites.
	Structures... Okay, but... Right, but Richard, you're... Yeah, but you're saying, just to be clear, that this was a prior civilization that got wiped out by whatever means that had attained space travel from Earth, Earthlings put it there, and that's what we're seeing.
	Yes?
	Maybe.
	It's one of the possibilities.
	The other possibility is it's genuine ETs, meaning someone from some other star system, or genuine aliens, because the definitions, you've got to really get your definitions down.
	To me, an extraterrestrial is anybody who lives not on Earth.
	Extraterrestrial.
	Sure.
	Aliens are extraterrestrials who don't have our DNA.
	So if you have human beings who live some other place than Earth, their relatives, their kin, their ETs, But they're not aliens.
	At all?
	Absolutely.
	And from this data, remember this is official NASA data, all we did was to scan it into the computer from a print I got from one of my sources at Goddard years ago, paper trail, absolutely unquestionably from NASA, and when we scanned it and simply amped the contrast and the brightness, bingo, This amazing geometry pops out above the horizon, above where there should be nothing at all.
	You should see nothing but a few stars.
	Question, I have a question.
	Obviously, it's been a long time since back in 1967, right?
	And at some point, NASA had to have explained what it is that we're seeing in this photograph.
	I want to know what they say.
	Okay, NASA says, and it's actually in the caption, The brilliant beating along the horizon, they are attributing to electrostatically suspended dust a few inches above the lunar surface due to the electric fields between the daylight side and the nighttime on what's called the Terminator, which moves westward at several miles per hour because of the slow rotation rate of the moon.
	And the hole?
	Well, what they don't explain, because they can't, Is all that exquisite geometric stuff rising miles above that horizon?
	If you do the geometry, if you actually work out the trigonometry, those things are beyond the horizon by many, many miles.
	Well, are we looking at things that really are out there at the horizon, or are we looking at part of the so-called dome?
	Well, no.
	When I say dome, you've got to think big.
	Oh yeah, I know.
	Lunar domes on the Moon are not like the little tiny things at McMurdo Sound at the Antarctic, you know, a few hundred feet across.
	These things, if they're real, and our data over the last few decades says they're there, are maybe hundreds of miles across.
	In fact, one of the models is that the lunar maria, those dark patches on the side of the Moon we can see from the Earth, the so-called man on the Moon, To those roughly circular dark areas, like this one.
	The Surveyor 6 landed in the middle one called Sinus Medi, which is the dark spots right in the center of the moon when you look at the full moon.
	By the way, I'm looking at the gibbous moon rising over the Sandia Mountains here in New Mexico.
	It's really gorgeous.
	You know, nighttime in the desert, moon, moonlight.
	Oh, I know.
	Anyway, so if you got a window, look out with a telescope and you'll see right in the middle of that brilliant circle, the moon, lit by the sun behind you, this dark little splotch called Sinus Medi, the Middle Bay in Latin, and that whole bay may have been the dome.
	Surveyor 6 landed fortuitously, or maybe NASA knew something, not too far from one of the edges of that dome.
	You're seeing a tiny, tiny, tiny portion of a huge, ancient, shattered glass structure.
	I've got to emphasize the shattered, because what you see there is not a uniform structure.
	It's got all kinds of holes and ragged places, and it's been beaten to hell in a handbag.
	Okay, all right, question.
	If it is a shattered dome, Then, um, you know, I can understand how our telescopes would not see a dome made of glass.
	It's glass.
	You're not going to see it.
	Exactly.
	But, but wait a minute.
	Once a dome shatters, then you have glass at every angle under the sun or in front of the sun.
	So, if it was really shattered, shouldn't we be seeing it with telescopes from Earth, you know, as shattered pieces reflecting every now and then?
	Well, depending upon the rate of the turnover of the regolith on the moon, the basic lunar dirt, it would quickly meld into the background, because you're looking straight down.
	Remember, from the Earth you're looking, like, down through the roof, through the top, the zenith.
	The pieces on the ground would quickly be mangled and, by meteors, turned into the dirt and soil And so very quickly, relatively speaking in space, you know, a few thousand years, it would be indistinguishable.
	Now, what's really interesting is that when the astronauts who landed years after, you know, two years after this photo was taken, was the roughly the Apollo 11 mission.
	And two years almost to the day after this picture was taken was the Apollo 12 mission with Alan Bean and Pete Conrad on Apollo 12.
	Not far from where this thing is.
	And they brought back rock samples, right?
	The proportion of shattered glass in the lunar surface regolith is an extraordinary 20, 30, 40 percent by actual measurement in the lab here on Earth from the lunar samples.
	Lunar glass occupied a huge fraction of the materials the astronauts brought back.
	Now, it's been attributed to volcanic eruptions somewhere in an ancient time, or more likely, meteor bombardment, but the surface of the Moon is basically like the surface of the Earth, the rocky surface.
	It's silicon dioxide.
	It's like sand, which is... Right, that's glass, and now I'm getting an echo for some reason.
	Are you, like, in the high 90 percentile range sure that that's what this is, is a dome?
	Well, science is always about corroboration, right?
	Give me a percentage of sureness.
	Oh, I'm up in the high 90s, yes.
	High 90s?
	Wow!
	This is not the only data we got.
	We've got data from unmanned missions, we've got the data from the manned missions, we have data from the U.S.
	space program, We've got data from the Russian program, we've got data from the Indian space program, we've got data from the Japanese mission, Selene, from the Chinese mission, Chang-2, I think was its name.
	Yeah, all this data cooperating, not this photograph.
	No, the general idea of ancient glass structures, I mean look, NASA in its own projected plans when they did some contracting in the 60s looking toward a vigorous space program.
	What the hell happened with that, by the way?
	You know, I really hope you're right, Richard.
	Honest to God, I hope you're right.
	Well, we have to look for the evidence.
	It's not about hope, it's about the evidence.
	Maybe we have to go back to the moon.
	You want evidence?
	Oh, of course!
	And we are going back.
	We are literally tonight with a young man spacecraft.
	With men.
	No, well, we need to go with men and women, of course.
	But even instruments, unmanned spacecraft, if it has the right instrumentation, can confirm this model.
	And it just so happens, in honor of your return to the air, NASA a few days ago launched an unmanned mission called the LADEE mission, which stands for Lunar Atmosphere Dust Environment Explorer.
	They did not.
	They didn't launch it for my...
	Come on, Rich.
	As Nouri said, there are no such things as coincidences.
	It's a pretty damn interesting coincidence.
	Oh, anyway, um, yeah.
	You know, I want to believe.
	I want to believe, Richard.
	There's a website called that.
	It's a good one, too.
	I want to believe that somebody put it on there, that we did it, they did it, we did it in an earlier incarnation, whatever.
	I want to believe it, because... We won't find out who did this until we land with men and women and we begin serious exploration, which I hope was going to happen after the Bush initiative, when, you know, the President announced Back in, what, 2004, we were going back to the moon?
	Right.
	And then a very funny thing happened, didn't it?
	Those plans all went awry.
	New president comes in.
	Everybody's looking to see what Obama's going to do with NASA, with space exploration, is he going to do with Kennedy, etc.
	And he cancels all of the Bush ideas and then sets us off on a journey that no one in NASA seems to think they can actually Do in a reasonable time frame, which is to go to some asteroid and completely ignore the Moon with men and women for the foreseeable future.
	Well, we are trying to go to an asteroid, right?
	We are trying to not only go to one, we're trying to go and capture one with a robotic probe, bring it back using solar-powered ion rockets to vector its trajectory around the Sun into an orbit around the Moon, Park it in a very long elliptical orbit around the moon, and then when the new NASA launch system, the space launch system, launches toward the end of the decade, 2021, I think, make that a first visit by American astronauts in their new Orion space vehicle, where they would basically go into lunar orbit, rendezvous with this 500-ton mini-asteroid that NASA had captured in
	Pretty cool.
	in the orbit so it would be accessible, and then do all kinds of preparatory work for
	analyzing asteroids, building using asteroid materials, developing an industrial infrastructure
	using asteroid materials.
	All of that with the convenience of only having to go to and from the moon orbit, which is
	roughly three days away.
	Pretty cool.
	Then when we're done with it, we can aim it at Syria and be done.
	That would give Assad something to think about.
	You know, there's actually folks on the Internet who are actually saying that this is a terrible idea because of exactly that.
	Well, yeah, you hope for no mistakes when you're dealing with asteroids.
	No.
	Oh, the idea is when you put this into orbit, you do it in such a way that if you do screw up, there is no way it can impact the Earth.
	The worst thing that can happen is it falls on the moon and makes another hole in one of these ancient domes.
	Right.
	Let me, I want you to go to photo number two.
	Alright.
	This is really important.
	Remember, the photo number one is a print I scanned, and my detractors say, oh, you just, you know, didn't clean your scanner and all that crud is on your... Yeah.
	Yeah, really, guys.
	Okay, here I am.
	Alright, so go to number two.
	Now, do you have a way to toggle back and forth easily?
	Not easily.
	But you can look at one and then the other and then go back and forth, right?
	I guess.
	This looks like it's taken further away.
	No.
	Almost.
	It does look further away.
	It's just how it's cropped, I guess.
	It's exactly how it's cropped, yeah.
	It's the same image, but it's a 2009 NASA version from the NSSDC.
	Really?
	Yep.
	Really, really, really.
	Now that is interesting, Richard.
	So you've got two pictures taken at very different... But there's two different processings.
	One, remember, back in the 60s, we didn't have digital.
	Everything was dark rooms, photographs.
	Remember film, guys?
	Remember Tri-X and Ektachrome and all those things?
	Sure, sure, sure.
	90% of our audience doesn't know what we're talking about.
	Kodachrome.
	Yeah, Kodachrome.
	Wonderful Kodachrome, yeah.
	This is a digital version from the original magnetic tapes that were recorded from the signal sent back by Surveyor in 67.
	Right.
	Stored in the National Archive, the NASA Archive, the National Space Science Data Center.
	That's what the NSSDC stands for.
	And when you click on the full image, Because when you go to these thumbnails on the image page, you click on them again, and it takes you to the full... Yeah, don't worry, I've got the full image.
	Okay.
	In the bottom left, you see the URL?
	Yes, source.berkeley.edu.
	That is a paper by a bunch of lunar specialists published in a peer-reviewed journal in 2009, where I got this image from.
	All right, if you're just tuning in, we're looking at these photographs on artbell.com.
	Look on the right-hand side and it says what, Richard?
	Richard Hoagland Photographs or something?
	Yeah, Hoagland Images for tonight.
	Yeah, this is number two and it's a dome.
	It's a dome on the moon.
	Okay, it's a part of a dome.
	All right, you see how there's kind of like a geometry?
	It comes up from the horizon and goes down like a cone?
	Yes.
	That's because of the light scattering characteristics of glass and sunlight when the sun is below the horizon.
	I'll kind of buy that.
	Okay.
	That's amazing.
	You can duplicate this on a pool table in a dark room.
	What you do is you get some plastic, you know, like those plastic egg cartons or plastic strips.
	Right.
	And you basically glue them together in a jumble.
	And you put them on the edge of the table, you turn out the lights in the room, you take a flashlight, which you were talking to your Canadian friend in the last segment about, and you put it below the edge of the table, and you shine it on the plastic creation.
	Sure, I can see how that would work, yeah.
	Alright, alright Richard, hold on, hold it right there.
	We're going to probably see if we can reset that phone line, or maybe we can't.
	It's livable, kind of.
	Okay.
	Dome on the Moon.
	Maybe.
	That's what I'm saying here.
	Maybe.
	And if it is a dome on the moon, then as Richard pointed out, there's only one of three possibilities, and all of them are pretty cool.
	Right?
	It was us.
	It was aliens.
	I kind of like the, it was us.
	We'll be right back.
	When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school, it's a wonder I can think
	at all.
	And I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do it.
	I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do it.
	And my lack of education hasn't hurt enough.
	I can read the writing on the wall.
	Code of God.
	You'd think that people would've had enough of silly love songs.
	Oh, you caught me.
	From the area of 51, this is Dark Matter with Art Bell.
	To join the show, please call 1-855-REAL-UFO.
	That's 1-855-732-5836.
	Oh my, I had the micro, but I actually started singing.
	I do that when I come for music, and I think I got the first little tiny syllable out and
	realized, oh no.
	Welcome back to Dark Matter, everybody.
	I'm Art Bell.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland, and here is somebody who says...
	Art, I have absolutely no idea what Richard is talking about.
	I'm not following this dome on the moon thing.
	No idea.
	All right, well look, it's up to you, but what we're talking about is at artbell.com, my website.
	So go there, artbell.com.
	Look for the photographs.
	We're now on the second photograph, which is photograph number two of a dome on the moon.
	Now this would have to be a dome that either we put there, I'll get back to that in a moment.
	Or the Russians put there.
	Or E.T.
	put there.
	One of the three.
	If it was us, then it would have been an earlier civilization.
	And you have to admit, that's certainly a possibility.
	That it was an earlier civilization.
	After all, it is our moon.
	Why would somebody want to build a condo on somebody else's moon?
	So, I'm going for the, it was us a long time ago idea, at best, Richard.
	Hello, Richard.
	Yeah, I'm right here.
	Sorry.
	I said I'm going for the, it was us a long time ago.
	It's not current us or the Russians for a simple reason.
	It's all in shattered ruins.
	It's incredibly old, given that nothing happens on the moon except under very long time scales.
	Basically, micrometeorite erosion.
	That's it.
	There's no earthquakes.
	There's no atmosphere.
	There's no hurricanes, no storms, no No, nothing except micrometeorite abrasion and big and small rocks occasionally falling from the sky.
	All the shattered holes and disorganized stuff you see is because it's really been battered to hell.
	We can say hell on Sirius now, right?
	Oh, yes.
	So, now, I want you on the second picture, look on the left.
	Do you see those faint linear lines of light, almost like a staircase, going from the horizon up toward the top left?
	Not so much, no.
	Oh, really?
	Okay.
	Well, look closely.
	They're there.
	I see stars.
	Is it to the right of the stars, toward the light, or to the left of the stars?
	No, it's to the left of the peak brightness.
	Above the beads.
	Above where it says, Surveyor Internal Light Reflections, above the horizon, on the left, horizontal lines paralleling the horizon.
	We know, of course, I've seen those in both photographs.
	Yeah, exactly, exactly.
	I thought I was looking for something new.
	No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	Okay, fine.
	What about them?
	The solar corona doesn't give you geometry.
	It doesn't give you staircases made of glass.
	Stepping up into the sky, into infinity.
	Okay.
	So, the hallmark of intelligence, anywhere in the universe, this comes from my old friend Carl Sagan, who said when he wrote, what was it, I guess, Cosmos, the first sign of intelligent life on Earth is in the geometric regularity of its constructions.
	Oh, yeah, okay.
	So that's your rule of thumb.
	If you look at Any planetary surface on any NASA image, either from the surface, from orbit, through the Hubble Telescope, spacecraft going past any other place, even on other stars when we ever get there, which at this rate we're not going to, the only way you know if it's a dead civilization that they used to be there is by looking at their geometric constructions.
	So when you see geometry, and the key thing here is these two pictures are separated By 30 some years, the two versions of the same shot.
	That is amazing.
	And it's in an official NASA publication of the results of study of the surveyor data building toward this current unmanned mission, which is en route to the moon tonight, even as we speak.
	Yeah, okay.
	All right, Richard, let's say that what you're telling me... But there's more data!
	All right, hold the data.
	Let's say that what you're telling me becomes confirmed, that we send either a manned or unmanned mission to the moon, and we actually confirm that this was, and what's left of it, is a dome that was on the moon.
	What effect do you think that would have on the world?
	Yeah, you want to cut to the chase, what the hell does it mean?
	Well, because a lot of these people in the audience, they think I'm nuts.
	I know, I know.
	Because they haven't seen enough data yet.
	All right, but Richard, I want to cut to it.
	The implication is either we're not alone, because if there's structures built by somebody not from Earth, right next door on the moon, Yes.
	That's very serious.
	Very, very serious.
	The implications of it have religious implications.
	It would disrupt all kinds of paradigms.
	People would get quite upset because they would be speculating.
	Was it them?
	Was it us in an earlier civilization?
	No matter what the answer is, it's really big.
	It's huge.
	It's a game changer.
	It changes everything.
	I agree with that.
	If it's aliens, it means the human race as a species that evolved on this planet is not alone in the Milky Way galaxy, let alone the billions of galaxies you can see on those Hubble Deep Field photographs.
	And that means there's company out there.
	If there's company out there, it means they obviously were able to travel.
	Because again, the model we're discussing is aliens came to the solar system Pick the moon to build amazing things on, left for some reason, died, became extinct, their stuff is now in ruins.
	Maybe the hole in their dome, Richard.
	Well, if you're not, if you don't keep things up, things happen, you know, when rocks come falling in.
	Everybody knows, you're on the moon, you get a hole in the dome, you go, and you die.
	No.
	Not if it's a small hole and the dome is huge.
	It's about a volume thing.
	It would take years for air to leak out of any Normal size holes on a voluminous scale?
	I was trying to be humorous.
	Okay, so you've got plenty of time to get the robots up there and fix it.
	The key thing is, I want you to go now to image number three.
	Happily.
	I'm going to read relentless about this because science is about data.
	I am sick to death of my stupid critics saying I'm nuts because they won't look at the data.
	It's like the Cardinals who wouldn't look through Galileo's telescope.
	And they said he was nuts and violating God.
	Well, if you don't look at the evidence, you can't accuse someone of being whatever.
	So go to number three.
	Oh, sure you can.
	This is the Internet, Richard.
	You can accuse anybody of anything.
	Not in 1610.
	All right.
	Well, anyway.
	Go to three.
	I'm there.
	OK.
	Zoom in.
	Remarkable similarity of ruins at Apollo 12 and 14 landing sites.
	Now, you see the black and white shot?
	Yes, I do.
	Uh, yes it is.
	Yeah.
	That's the Lunar Module Intrepid that Conrad and Bean landed on the moon in November of 69, two years after the Surveyor shot.
	Pretty damn cool shot, actually.
	Yeah.
	Do you notice those horizontal thingies in the sky?
	I do.
	Looks like, uh, you know what it looks like?
	Looks like a wood fence.
	Or a staircase.
	You know.
	I'd go for wood fence.
	Alright, alright.
	But now, if you want to flip back to number two... No, I don't.
	Oh, I will.
	I will.
	I will.
	Yeah, if I had a little more time, I would have prepped these side-by-side comparisons.
	All right, I'm back to two.
	Back to two.
	Look on the left at the same kind of geometry.
	I don't see a wood fence.
	Well, it's dimmer because we didn't brighten it overly exposed.
	Okay.
	Sorry.
	It's the vertical Horizontal layering.
	Okay.
	I really don't see that, Richard.
	I'm sorry.
	Oh, you don't see the comparison?
	That's interesting.
	No, I don't.
	Look, in shot three, I clearly see a wood fence.
	In some disrepair, but a wood fence.
	Okay.
	Now the source material for number three, the black and white shot, is a frame from a movie that NASA put out called Pinpoint for Science.
	Back in those days, remember this is the day when I was with Cronkite and we were all over NASA like, you know, rug on the floor.
	Yes.
	And they were so eager to get their results out to keep people interested in the moon project.
	That they released them very quickly.
	Oh, they would bang these things out within days.
	Right.
	So they made what's called a SP film.
	So it is your position, Richard, that because they released them so quickly, they didn't have time to change them and eliminate any possible reference to something artificial that was there?
	Because it wasn't in their conception.
	All the honest guys at NASA had no idea this stuff was there.
	Remember, in history, it's always the earliest stuff that you can trust.
	And the later stuff, the folks who want to change things or make history go away or erase, you know, they have time to do their dirty work.
	What NASA did is they produced these films with two companies, one in Virginia and one in Houston.
	And they got them out within days of the landing, when the astronauts had come back.
	And then they sent them all over the world.
	So there are hard copy film prints In little canisters with this name on it, Pinpoint for Science, the history of the Apollo 12 mission, half an hour, all over the planet, in India, in Russia, in Japan, in Brazil, in Argentina, in Dubuque, Iowa, there's a zillion copies of this film out there that has absolute parallel data showing glass structures
	Similar, if not identical, to the geometry seen on the Surveyor shots taken two years after Surveyor.
	Stop, stop for a second.
	Are you telling me that this thing that I'm calling a wood fence?
	A wood fence.
	And it does look like one.
	In fact, I have no idea what the verticals, the irish, and what they mean.
	That's film scratches.
	Remember, all we've done is to scan this and put it up.
	We haven't touched it in any other way.
	But you're telling me, basically, that this illustrates, again, the dome?
	Yes.
	And it actually could be a portion of the same one because the Apollo 12 landing was not too far away as the crow flies.
	Of course, crows can't fly on the moon, no air.
	I do, Richard, I do admit the way the light is would suggest that something clear, opaque is there.
	I don't know what it is, but it does seem to illustrate something is there.
	You can eliminate by the process of known physics all the things that can't be.
	It can't be an atmosphere, because we've got instruments that have measured gazillion molecules on the moon's surface and there is no air.
	No, but they are about to measure something they're calling an atmosphere, which I thought was weird.
	But see, well, it's about definitions.
	The lunar atmosphere exists, but it is millions and millions and millions of times thinner than the air we're breathing.
	And optically, you couldn't even see it.
	There's so few atoms and molecules per cubic foot.
	It's hardly worth talking about or even measuring.
	Well, on a long-term basis, it can have effects on the lunar surface.
	So from a scientific point of view, that's why they're interested in measuring its properties.
	But from a practical point of view, it is absolutely as if it was not there.
	It certainly cannot create on film.
	Remember how slow film used to be compared to electronic cameras?
	Yes.
	And this is now taken not after sunset, this is taken in broad daylight, and what we've done is we've suppressed the light on the lunar surface, which is already overexposed, and we've brightened up the vacuum black lunar sky above the horizon to bring up the faint scattering of light from the ragged fragments of this shattered dome, actually a small tiny piece of it, you're not seeing, you're so close you're seeing just a tiny portion Like if you were, well, think of a huge structure like the Superdome, and you're standing too far away from the wall.
	That's what you're seeing.
	You're seeing a tiny portion of a much more vast structure, which under one-sixth lunar gravity could rise miles into the sky.
	Somebody's objecting.
	That is Moralla.
	Moralla loves to have national airtime.
	She has bothered George.
	She's actually barked during the commercials.
	Gone to break at the top and the bottom of the hour.
	I'm talking to you.
	I'm not talking to her.
	She's pissed.
	Plus, you're a cat guy, and I know... No, no, no.
	Now, listen.
	You're going to lead me down a bad road here.
	I said no bad language, and that is a rule on this program.
	Okay.
	Angry.
	She's angry.
	All right.
	Oh, you really can't use that other word?
	Okay.
	Well, I'd rather not.
	All right.
	Fine.
	My point is that these are two independent data sets.
	Taken two years apart by two different sets of instrumentation.
	Right.
	I'm there.
	And see, these are not our only examples.
	I mean, you and I could spend days going through photograph after photograph showing the same stuff all over the moon.
	We don't have time.
	That's why I have a website.
	I'd need special medicine for it.
	Now, let's get to image number four.
	Because this is where the MacGuffin is.
	This is where Hitchcock's, you know, end of the story comes to a point.
	All right.
	We're on Artbell.com, folks.
	So when you hear him say Image 4, that means you should be following along with this or it's going to be hard for you to even comment.
	Artbell.com.
	All right.
	Now, that's a nice picture.
	No, it's an artistic rendering.
	And what it shows is the 800-pound unmanned LADEE robotic spacecraft, which is headed toward the moon tonight.
	It's going to take them about 30 days in these wandering orbits through very low energy to get there, even though you can go there in three days.
	They've chosen, because of the rocket system they used, a very elaborate way of saving energy so they can put as much payload in their spacecraft as possible.
	And this is the spacecraft that could, if we keep NASA honest, Tell us if we're looking at ancient glass domes or we're looking at just some natural phenomenon that has never been encountered before in space and it's just from everybody.
	Alright, that's very hopeful, Richard.
	I would like, trust me, I would like nothing more in the world than for you to be right, and for them to take the images, and here comes a clear image of a dome.
	But, you... I just know that you're going to say, if there's any dome in the picture, they're going to eliminate it before we ever see it.
	Well, maybe and maybe not.
	Remember, when you and I did shows ten years ago, the politics were a certain way.
	You know, when you were talking with Steven Greer earlier in the week, you know, we had the phase of, this bullet has your name on it to keep secrets.
	Right.
	My political assessment now is that there are so many people in NASA who are desperate to leak the real stuff out.
	And when we get into our Mars Curiosity part of the evening, you're going to see some far more amazing things that are obvious in every photograph that they're releasing.
	Wouldn't you think by now, Richard, if NASA had been doctoring photographs, that a lot of people would have come forward wanting nothing to do with hiding a gigantic truth of that magnitude from the world?
	Which people are we talking about?
	The people I just talked about, who would be so upset about hiding a truth of this magnitude from the world that they would... they'd get the real thing out and say, here you go!
	You mean people in NASA?
	Sure.
	Well, but they're just human beings.
	They've got car payments.
	They've got kids.
	They've got mortgages.
	They have to live.
	They have to survive.
	If they're told, a la what Greer was told, you know, you either do this or you don't do anything, What's their decision?
	And it doesn't even have to be life-threatening.
	All it has to be is job-threatening.
	All there has to be is a few Snowdens in NASA.
	But they have to be able to get the evidence out.
	You understand?
	If the evidence... I do, yes.
	If Snowden hadn't carefully, carefully stashed away on all those thumb drives these documents, these papers, would anybody be paying attention to a guy named Snowden?
	If he just came out and said, there's this stuff going on.
	No, no.
	And I'm saying if there was a Snowden within NASA, he'd pack away on microfilm or whatever he had to pack it away in the real photographs and get them to us.
	Well, there's evidence that back way back when, 37 years ago, when NASA was preparing some of these films.
	If you know how film is prepared, you know, where you basically splice different segments together and you had to physically splice it, you had to make what's called inter negatives and all that?
	Yes, yes.
	Somebody actually did stash interesting information between the splices on some of these films.
	And the reason I know that is back when I started doing this work was, which was what now 20 some years?
	I had a guy, an expert Hollywood guy, who was a technician who worked in the major film industry north of Los Angeles, and he was an inventor.
	He was a brilliant engineering genius, and he had created kind of the next generation of the moviola.
	You're familiar with moviolas, right?
	Yes.
	Which was this gadget they used to spool film.
	That's right.
	Well, this was a step up above Because it had what was called a floating point stage, or film gate, which means you could look at film and not put scratches on it.
	So you could run it back and forth and you could edit it and chop it into pieces and splice it together, but you wouldn't put scratches, which is the bane of all film editors.
	That was then, this is now.
	Now we've got high-resolution digital photography.
	Yeah, and we've also got electronic Guys at the NSA who are snooping on everybody doing everything, and if you don't think everybody who has access to data like this has server numbers to where anybody logging on for access is logged, anybody sticking a thumb drive in, I mean we're not just talking now about millions of pages of text, we're talking about a relatively small number of images that are in electronic trackable form
	So anybody trying to do a Snowden on us would get caught.
	Certainly everything's being monitored.
	I know that's true now.
	So you're saying, look, it makes it all that much easier for them to be in absolute total control of what we see.
	Well, look, I've said this on the air before, both with you and many other people.
	We have a space situation where you have one agency Which controls the spacecraft, controls the rockets, controls the launch pads, controls the downlink facilities, the big radio antennas, controls the instruments, controls the scientists, controls the public relations.
	They own the system end to end to end.
	There's no independent way you and I can go to the moon tonight, take a picture and come back and say, gee, look at that!
	Mm-hmm.
	Right?
	Yes, and they're certainly connected to government, Richard, so... In every possible way.
	There are no de-embedded missions yet.
	And if there are, if the politics are still where we're not supposed to know any of the stuff is out there, I would bet you dollars to navy beans that when the first private lunar mission leaves, Unless it is sanctioned by the powers that be, it will have a mysterious, sad accident, and it will be attributed to, well, they're just a bunch of amateurs, they don't know what they're doing, engineering is hard, space is hard, and no one will ever question.
	Okay, if this gorgeous spacecraft that I'm looking at goes and takes pictures of the dome area, And they're good, and they're clear, and they're high-res, and you get them back, and there's no hint of a dome, or even dome pieces there, and it hasn't been messed with, will you be satisfied that there's not a dome there?
	Well, first of all, there's a slight error in your statement.
	Which one?
	That's not what they're planning to do.
	They're not going to look at the dome area?
	They do not have cameras.
	They don't have cameras?
	They have not, we think there are cameras on board that they're sneaking to the moon, but they're not telling anybody.
	Oh my.
	And I've documented this, and let me go through the story, and then you can pick it apart if you want.
	This spacecraft, when you go to the official websites, either the European Space Agency or the NASA Space Agency websites, and you type in Google LADEE, L-A-D-E-E, mission, you'll get a whole bunch of links.
	When you look through the instruments, there's only three instruments on this 800-pound spacecraft.
	And they are what?
	And they're all non-visual, non-photographic.
	There's what's called a UVS telescope, Ultraviolet Visual Telescope, designed to look at spectra and at photometry, which is how brightness levels change on a squiggly graph.
	Alright, would that see the dome?
	Of course!
	Because you're looking at this picture, you're looking at light scattering, but if you don't have a picture for Art Bell to look at, and you publish a set of squiggly lines, are you going to know it's a damn dome?
	Well, no, but if NASA comes back and says it's a dome... They won't!
	They won't!
	That's the huge sociological thing in this culture, which we have time to get into later in the evening.
	They have been publishing official images from Mars from Curiosity, and we'll get to that in a couple of minutes.
	of artifacts all over the Martian surface of Gale Crater.
	And because they don't hold a press conference and say, that's an artificial piece of junk left by some prior civilization, nobody looking at the picture wants to say what it is, except us.
	And who's going to believe us?
	Because we're not official.
	We have a culture where unless the president comes out and tells everybody what reality is, Nobody independently wants to make a judgment.
	All right, Richard, hold it there.
	We're going to take a short break.
	Jones, I've been saying this for the last few days because I think it goes over well.
	Trust me on this.
	This is such a cool idea.
	Do you have an FM transmitter?
	Probably not.
	I'm suggesting you get one and I've got one for you to get.
	Now, this transmitter will transmit anything you want.
	You just plug a little wire into your iPhone and or your iPad, your iPod, your smartphone, your computer, your internet radio, your Sirius XM radio, or if you've got me coming in on your iPhone, you can plug the iPhone into it, and this transmitter will transmit throughout your house.
	It'll transmit my show to any FM radio in your house on any part of the FM dial.
	Pretty cool stuff, I'm telling you.
	Now I want to remind everybody not to attach a 30 inch wire for improved distance.
	I want to remind you not to go on the internet and read about the C crane transmitter.
	And I want to tell you, I better not say anything else.
	I want to tell you that it comes with an AC adapter.
	It can run on a couple of AA batteries.
	But seriously, my friends, this thing will Well, it'll fill you with joy when you hear this program or whatever else coming out of your FM radio on the other side of the house.
	It's $59.95.
	That's cheap for an FM transmitter.
	Take it from somebody who's bought a lot of them.
	Call C-Crane now at 800-522-8863.
	1-800-522-8863. You're asking for the Z-Crane FM transmitter.
	Transmitter.
	1-800-522-8863.
	And of course, you can get a free catalog and see it at www.seacrane.com.
	So, I'm contemplating domes on the moon.
	And you should be too.
	I mean, if there is a chance that there is a dome on the moon, that means one of three incredible things.
	Wouldn't that be something?
	Somebody else built it?
	Or even if it was us a long time ago?
	Don't think it was the Russians.
	But a prior civilization?
	Yeah, baby.
	Maybe.
	We'll be right back.
	♪♪ ♪♪
	♪ I can feel it coming in the air tonight ♪ ♪♪
	♪♪ ♪♪
	♪ We still have time, we might still get by. ♪ Every time I think about it, I want to cry.
	With bombs in the air, little kids keep coming.
	The weather may be easy, no time to be young.
	Coming to you from geosynchronous orbit at the speed of light, this is Dark Matter with Art Bell.
	To call Art, please light up the lines at 1-855-REAL-UFO.
	That's 1-855-732-5836.
	Listen, somebody on the wormhole said Richard's getting angry.
	No, he's not.
	Richard's not getting angry.
	We're just having a heated discussion.
	We do that all the time.
	We've been doing that for years.
	You know, I don't always see the same things that Richard does, but you know what I would like to discuss, Richard, is, you know, the implications of what you're saying.
	If it's true, I mean, if it's true, then it's the story of our lifetimes, of all lifetimes to date.
	It's that big.
	It's important for it to be proven either true or not true.
	I do agree with that.
	The only way you do that is with evidence, scientific evidence.
	All right, I want to go back in time a little bit, Richard.
	You maintained early, and you and I argued to death about it, about the face on Mars, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, the face on Mars.
	What is your position now on the face on Mars?
	Well, do you want to leave the moon yet?
	Because I wanted to get to the point.
	Just for a moment, and we'll come back to the moon, I promise.
	Well, the face on Mars is real.
	There's an ancient city around it.
	There's been umpteen spacecraft that has taken, you know, images of it.
	Do you know that for a place that NASA claims it has no scientific interest in, the Cydonia region of Mars, where the face is, is the most photographed region on Mars of any place on Mars in the last 30 years.
	And that's probably thanks to you.
	Well no, it's thanks to NASA people inside really wanting to know and lying through their teeth to everybody else.
	But the data says they are really interested despite what they say.
	It was just a pile of rocks.
	Why do you spend billions of dollars over 30 years from the 70s taking pictures of a
	place that means nothing?
	Well Richard, what if the people at NASA were genuinely going, okay, maybe it's a face.
	Let's find out.
	That's exactly my assessment.
	Our company, when they tell the public, nothing there, move along, move along, and privately They're interested up to their eyeballs in what I've been proposing for the last couple decades.
	Now, how do you know that?
	Because if the data says they're taking information from spacecraft again and again and again in one region, and yet they're telling the Congress and they're telling the public there's nothing there, move along, move along, that is the height of scientific hypocrisy to say nothing of the Of the attacks they've made against me and a lot of other people who've looked at this now.
	Well, look, I admit Cydonia is an interesting region, there's no question about that.
	Is it a face?
	You know, when they did the closer high-res photography, frankly, Richard, it didn't look like a face at that point.
	Now, from Earth, with the right telescope, yeah, it looks like a face.
	If the sun is in the right place, it definitely looks like a face.
	But, you know, the latter pictures that we've received, no.
	Well, when you say ladder pictures, you kind of have to pick which pictures.
	Because if you look at the NASA pictures... Fair enough.
	Yeah.
	The NASA pictures, when you get the so-called best images, it really doesn't look like it did in the Viking shots.
	But when you look at the images coming from the Mars Express mission, from the European Space Agency, you see all kinds of exquisite detail But for some reason you don't see on the NASA images, and that's kind of impossible because they're supposed to be photographing the same thing on the same Martian desert, right?
	Okay.
	All right, so your position then, I just wanted to clear it up, remains that that was a face put there by, well, your choice of the above, right?
	So we would recognize it was a face, realize there was life on Mars at some point.
	Well, that's one, again, one hypothesis.
	You know, when you try to crawl into people's headspace, into their minds, particularly separated by the present, by millions of years, and you may not even be dealing with the same species, because remember, we don't have any ground truth.
	We don't have access to the libraries.
	We don't have a signature.
	We don't know who did it.
	All we know is something interesting was done.
	And what we need is a human mission to go there, find the libraries, and find out who did it.
	And where they came from, and if they were related to us.
	Now we've got some models, some scenarios, some educated guesses, some speculations based on the science.
	And you admit that that's all it is?
	Yeah, at the moment, because we don't have the ground truth.
	It'd be really cool to have a human mission to Mars in our lifetime, where astronauts, multinational of course, walk in the front door, take I don't know.
	You are getting some support from some of the people that are sending messages.
	Science is not a popularity contest.
	I don't know.
	You are getting some support from some of the people that are sending messages.
	Can I interrupt?
	It's a real...
	Science is not a popularity contest.
	That's why I'm so upset when people say, oh, so-and-so is with you, or so-and-so is against
	Yeah, I know.
	I'm not turning it into that.
	I'm just saying, Richard, there are people that have looked at these images, you know, back from the phase on Mars to the present.
	And they are seeing what you see.
	And Cydonia is an absolutely fascinating place.
	And I can imagine that, you know, NASA thought, yeah, well, maybe.
	And so they went back and took more photographs.
	Well, you can go to the archive.
	I mean, this is just engineering data, and you can look at the missions and the amount of time they've spent taking pictures, high-resolution pictures at trigonometry, different sun angles, even in color, of this one little region.
	And remember, Mars is a geologically interesting place.
	It has as much land area as all of Earth's continents combined, even though Mars is half the size of Earth because there are no current oceans.
	I'm giving you this, Richard.
	I'm saying it.
	They spend so much time taking data on one place and publicly saying there's no interest.
	They're lying!
	I'm agreeing with you.
	Let me actually say yes to you.
	I agree.
	I think they have been fascinated with Sedonia, and so they went back again and again and again.
	And I think they did it in part because of you, Richard.
	Really, I do.
	And the fact that it looks like a face.
	It has nothing to do with me.
	The in crowd and the out crowd are totally separate.
	We, and I'm talking now about everybody listening, To my voice, including you, Art, we don't count from these people's perspectives.
	There are two separate civilizations almost going on.
	There's the in-crowd, which we can call euphemistically the 1%, or the 100th of 1%, and then there's all the rest of us.
	And history in the last 20 years has proven that we don't count.
	Look around at all the mainstream news and all the things that we used to talk about That were spooky or conspiratorial or, oh, there's no way that could be true.
	Every worst nightmare that you and I and all your other guests have ever discussed has come true, has it not?
	The worst case scenario is worse than anybody could have imagined, up to and including Edward Snowden.
	A lot of them, yes, have come true.
	Not a lot.
	All of them.
	There is a very important report called Report from Iron Mountain.
	You want to have someone on some night to discuss Okay, let me say something.
	I'm going to support you.
	I think that if the current spying being done on the American people was done in 1950, let's say 1950, Richard, and the American people became aware that all of their phone calls were being listened to or monitored and all of their E-mails, if they had e-mail, or mail, or whatever.
	No, no, no, no.
	Their actual hard copy mail was opened to some secret office.
	Okay, fine.
	All right, I said that they were being spied on by the government en masse, as they are now.
	I think there would have been a revolution.
	Yeah.
	That's what I think.
	In a nation with a lot of people carrying guns, there would have been a real revolution.
	Now people just seem to roll over and accept it as, well, that's just the cost of doing business.
	So I'm on Facebook, and I'm on Google, and everybody's monitoring what I'm doing.
	Well, they're doing it for business purposes.
	They want to sell me something.
	We have become so passive at the idea that we are being treated like chattel, like slaves, and there's a few people who have access to the good stuff.
	And by good stuff, I mean... You asked me before the question, what does this mean if I'm right, if there's an ancient civilization On the moon and Mars.
	Yes.
	It changes everything because it gives us the tools so that 7 billion human beings technologically can live off the earth without destroying the earth.
	They can all have incomes.
	They can all have jobs.
	They can all have a life.
	They can all have families.
	They don't have to go to war with each other and shoot each other because of something stupid like oil.
	It totally changes the equation of the haves versus the have-nots.
	And that's why this information has been locked up, Art.
	They want us in chains.
	Well, we're getting there.
	We're so close.
	And that's why I'm looking at this mission back to the moon, and I'm saying there may be a contingent, a group, that are going to blow the whistle, and they've set this up very carefully so that the bad guys don't know what the good guys inside are about to spring on them.
	All right.
	I'm going to give you this much, Richard.
	If they didn't want us to know about what was on Mars, and they didn't want us to know what was on the Moon, and there was something of intense interest there, they have the power for us not to know.
	Totally.
	Yeah, okay.
	That I'll give you.
	Unless there's a break inside, unless the politics of cover-up A la Brookings, which is a nice excuse, have changed.
	We won't know from this current mission.
	And unfortunately, there's indications they're planning to really try to sneak in a little bit faster.
	Let me tell you how.
	When one of my readers on Enterprise saw that I was going to be on your show, he sent me an email the other night and he said, what are those two weird things on the top of the LADEE spacecraft?
	And I went and looked.
	And I didn't see anything unusual.
	And so we got into this dialogue and I actually started doing some homework and digging and digging.
	And finally, I found an obscure engineering thing out of NASA that said they were what's called what are called star trackers.
	Now star trackers are important because you need to maintain the attitude of a spacecraft in space.
	So you can give the the inertial measuring units the gyroscopes inside they're spinning up Basic updates so that you know where the thing is pointing.
	If you don't know where it's pointing, you can't point the instrument, you can't get data, et cetera, et cetera.
	So StarTrackers have been on every single unmanned spacecraft we ever launched.
	As the technology has gotten more sophisticated, they basically evolved from little slit scan thingies where you basically are looking through two razor blades butted up against each other and the star has to fall right between them so there's a little sliver of light and that's how you know you're pointed at the star.
	Yes.
	They've evolved into CCD cameras.
	When the Clementine mission went back in the early 90s, 92, it was a DOD mission.
	They had these Star Trekker cameras that frankly were a damn sight better than the best NASA cameras, like on Surveyor, because they were built on state-of-the-art CCD technology And not using old Vidicon tubes, TV tubes.
	Those pictures of the moon showed an extended glow around the moon, like you were looking at the combined scattered light of a lot of lunar domes shattered, made of glass, and scattering light that shouldn't be there.
	And then, when the astronauts, and I'm going to back up a bit.
	I want to ask you a question about the astronauts right now, and that is, If what you're saying is true, and there are many domes, and or buildings, very tall buildings, you've talked about those before, glass buildings, right?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	If that sort of thing was there, then we have to presume that our astronauts got a look at some of it, right?
	Yep.
	So then we have to jump to the conclusion that the astronauts And here I may help your case, as opposed to hurt it, that the astronauts... I know where you're going.
	Well, yes.
	They saw it.
	They've been sworn to secrecy with, I don't know, maybe, what's your name on it?
	Whatever.
	Or even worse.
	Or even worse?
	Yep.
	Their minds have been altered.
	They have been subjected to a sophisticated technology that has replaced their real memories of what they saw and what they did with fake memories.
	And the key, you know, entry point of that theory is the conversation you and I had with Ed Mitchell over a decade ago, where Ed on air live and in his book, The Way of the Explorer, He confounds his own perception of his experience by saying, I can't remember what it felt like to do what I did on the moon.
	Thank you.
	You saved me from having to say it.
	Now, here's a follow-up question to that.
	You're right about Ed Mitchell, because I was there.
	I asked him.
	Now, what about the other astronauts, Richard?
	And I think, again, this comes down on your side, because they've all In Chapter 2 of Dark Mission, which Mike and I spent a lot of time researching heavily, I was so intrigued with the Mitchell Anomaly, because look, it's got to be the high point of your entire existence to be one of the first friggin' people to walk on another planet, right?
	Totally, absolutely, yes.
	It's got to be the zenith of your life!
	When I met him, Because I palled around with him early on when we were still going to the moon with the later lunar mission.
	Remember, I was a Cronkite Sky, so I had access to all the astronauts and all the other people.
	God, if I knew then what I know now.
	The questions I could have asked.
	Anyway, Mitchell at that time was freely acknowledging that he had real problems because he couldn't remember what it felt like, the emotion.
	And because he's a smart guy, it bothered him.
	It bothered him so much that he actually booked therapy sessions with a well-known hypnotherapist.
	I won't mention any names, but I have because I know the people involved because I was really focused on this in the later years.
	When he went to those sessions, the thing he wanted to do is to somehow find out why he couldn't remember the emotions.
	He can remember the mission timeline, what rocks they picked up, the tools they used.
	Very, very curious, Richard.
	All that.
	It's very curious.
	Let me leap to the end of the chase here.
	I get to the therapist, who's a well-known household name.
	If I told you the name, you'd go, oh, that person.
	And they're in their first session, and this person is trying hypnotic regression to eliminate all the fuzzy stuff and get him to calm and to focus.
	He gets to the point and he says, that's not important.
	I don't need to know that.
	And he absolutely resists the hypnotic regression.
	They can't break through the block.
	He had some psychological inhibition against remembering his real experience and it has bedeviled the bejesus out of him for 40 years.
	As it has with all the other astronauts.
	When I was researching For Dark Mission, I found to my amazement and sadness, because when you think of national heroes being tampered with to this degree, it goes back to what I said a few minutes ago, how the 1.01% doesn't give a damn about the rest of us, including national heroes who are their slaves to do their bidding and put out their political spin, but not to be valued as individual human beings under the Constitution.
	Each one of them has a way of working around this problem that none of them can remember what it felt like.
	I can offer no argument to this, and if people don't find this strange, and really strange, then they're not listening.
	That's all I can say.
	I have no argument.
	It's weird.
	People say to me, why haven't you been back to the moon for 40 years?
	Well, duh!
	I say that.
	If the powers that be know what's there, and they don't want the rest of the planet to know, then they would never go back.
	Alright, stop, stop for a moment.
	Why wouldn't they want us to know?
	Now, we're going to talk about Brookings for a minute, okay?
	Okay.
	Because there really has to be a reason.
	Now, Brookings, of course, suggested that if the world was given information that there were others, there are others, that it would deeply impact so many of our institutions, and chiefly among them would be religion.
	It would deeply impact religion.
	Now, there's arguments against that, and I know there's a million people come out and say, oh, wouldn't bother me, wouldn't bother me, and that's fine, maybe it wouldn't bother you, but it would bother a lot of people, and that's what you have to understand.
	Now, there represents a reason for not telling us.
	Maybe it's not a good reason anymore, but it's a reason.
	And when you start talking about Hiding all of this, Richard, you damn well better have a reason why the American government and other governments would hide these things.
	Well, look, when you come across a dead body on the floor, let's say you're a cop, you don't give a damn about why the person was killed.
	Oh, yes, you do.
	It's a motive.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	You can't.
	You can't.
	It's nice to have a motive, but there have been plenty of jury convictions without a motive.
	Not as many.
	Usually you need a motive.
	But there have been many, and there's not as few as you think.
	By the way, I just got a note from George.
	In fact, I've got two notes from George.
	His first one, he said, I hear he's giving you a hard time.
	And I said, we're having a spirited conversation.
	No, George, it's called a conversation.
	So he just sent me another one.
	Go get him.
	Okay, come get me, Richard.
	No problem.
	That's what we're doing.
	If we weren't doing this, I wouldn't be having fun.
	I have known you since before George was out of the crib.
	Not quite, but you know.
	Not that far.
	No one seems to understand that the way you get to the bottom of this is you have two very civilized people talk about real stuff without being personal, and I love it when you challenge because it means You're listening to the answers.
	Richard, it's called a talk show.
	For a reason.
	Alright, alright, enough of that.
	So, anyway, back to Brookings.
	Brookings does give us, I think it gives us a legitimate reason to hide this, and short of Brookings and what they say in there, what reason would there be to hide it?
	Well, look, if we're doing multiple choice, remember your conversation with Greer?
	You know, why don't they want us to know about UFOs and all that?
	And you went down a list of all the reasons?
	Ultimately, it seems to me, it comes down to control.
	This planet has a history of control.
	Even under the aegis of democracy, ultimately, we don't have a pure democracy.
	And if you look at Washington now, with the stunning exception Of the latest refusal by the American people to stampede into another stupid Middle East war, and the Congress to actually listen, as well as the President, we haven't had many examples of where the people's will was actually exercised for decades, right?
	I agree with that, yes.
	And since I agree with that, hold on Richard, we're going to do a quick break here.
	We do have them.
	Again, it's got to be a matter of trust, and plus I want you to go to the C-Crane website.
	The Sentinel Ally.
	This is the coolest thing you've ever seen.
	I'm telling you.
	Trust me, I've taken this ally and the Sentinel Ally and shown my friends.
	Every single one of them said, I have to have it.
	And that includes my wife.
	We went to see Bob in C-Crane.
	Bob demonstrated this, and it wasn't out yet, you know, it was just getting started.
	And my wife saw it, and my wife started jumping up and down, wanting one, and of course he gave it to her.
	What it is, is a 9-inch, that's all I had said more, it's only 9-inch, it's a portable, stereo, oval cylinder speaker that you can carry anywhere you go.
	It's very lightweight, fits into a giant pant pocket, actually, backpack or even a briefcase.
	Has excellent audio and delivers crisp, full stereo sound that's totally out of this world.
	The Sentina gets together with anything you've got by Bluetooth, you know, just like that.
	It's got a USB thumb drive if you want, an SD card, 8-inch patch cord.
	And listen, with the Ally, you can stream audio via Bluetooth from your phone, tablet, laptop, satellite radio, or any other Bluetooth-enabled device, and it comes out sounding like you're in a concert hall.
	It's got rechargeable batteries.
	It'll play for up to 10 hours.
	How's that?
	10 hours on rechargeables.
	It's good for barbecues, out at the beach, trips to the lake.
	You can leave it on your kitchen counter, and what's on that little cell phone sounds like an orchestra.
	Trust me.
	Call them now.
	800-522-8863.
	That's 800-522-8863.
	Operators are sitting around right now waiting for you to call.
	And by the way, after you get the sentence and try it, you call me on the air and tell everybody how it sounds.
	All right?
	And they've got a free catalog, too.
	Ccrane.com.
	It's awesome stuff.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest, and yes, we're having a discussion.
	It's called a talk show.
	show. None at all.
	I'm never frightened or worried. I know I always get by.
	I hit up, cool down. When something gets in my way I go around it.
	Don't let life get to you.
	I'm never frightened or worried. I know I always get by.
	Want to take a ride? To call Dark Matter with Art Bell and be part of the fun.
	Let's see, this comes from Jerry.
	Very large signal. Please call 1855 Real UFO. That's 1-855-732-5836.
	Very large signal is right. Ha ha!
	Ah, let's see, this comes from Jerry.
	Jerry says, the bit Richard was just talking about the astronauts having had their minds blocked.
	You know, I thought for years that this was done when they were quarantined after they returned from the moon.
	Perfect time to do it.
	You know, I've got to admit that there's probably something to this.
	I don't know that they've had their minds blocked, but something is absolutely wrong with their reactions when they're asked about how they felt to walk on the moon, to be a man walking on the moon.
	This would not be something you would forget.
	You wouldn't forget your feelings and your emotions, and it would be, I don't know, a high point in your life, and you just sure as hell wouldn't forget.
	Richard?
	I'm here.
	Okay, so I'm with you on that part, and I guess what I want to ask you now is, in your mind, is Brookings no longer viable?
	Well, I've always thought, you know, when I say always, I mean, you know, you and I have a secret bandwinkle.
	You know, I was listening to you the other night, and it was like I had woken up from a 10-year sleep, and there was art, and there were guests, and there was a conversation, and it's like you're in the groove.
	You are really in the groove, and I love talking with you.
	I don't know why people think I'm angry.
	I'm passionate because I'm tired of being lied to.
	Right, I'm passionate too, and that's all it is.
	It's talk.
	But the American people were so tired, so sick to death of endless, endless war, they said in the last couple of weeks, no!
	And the most amazing thing is, the system listened!
	This is unheard of, and I think this is going to progress now.
	If this is part of something new, which is bubbling under the body politic, This mission to the moon could be finally the vindication of all the things that will change the world for the better if this data comes out and people realize, oh my God, not only are we not alone, but it was us at one time.
	We did astonishing, amazing things.
	There's amazing stuff left there, which you brought back to Earth.
	Could be turned on and could give everybody a human life, regardless of the fact that there's seven billion people destroying the planet tonight.
	I mean, this is a game changer in every sense of the word, which is why it's important to argue and to debate and to discuss data and to have a vigorous conversation at an international space satellite level, reaching multiple continents.
	This is not just about Americans or high Canadians.
	It's about everybody.
	This changes everything, and this unmanned mission, if the good guys can sneak one past the bad guys, if they've set this up correctly to where that spacecraft in three weeks goes into orbit, and they begin to take data and they confirm what I've been showing in these pictures, and it's just the tip of the peripheral iceberg.
	Okay, but Richard, my question is, are we ready?
	Yes.
	We'll never be more ready.
	Like, as Greer said the other night, it would have been a lot easier, I think, 50 years ago, because the 50s, we were all expecting there was somebody out there.
	Now, the movies had them all being really, really bad guys, right?
	That's right.
	That's why it's the only safe route to introduce people to the idea of an inhabited universe is to find ruins When there's nobody home.
	And it's proactive.
	I would agree.
	We go there.
	It's like archaeology.
	Are we threatened by the Sumerians?
	Are we threatened by the Assyrians?
	Are we threatened by the Mayans?
	No!
	Why?
	Because they've been dead and gone a long, long time.
	Well, whoever left the stuff on the moon and Mars have been dead and gone a long, long time.
	But the difference is, Unlike these pre-technological ruins that we've investigated, the goodies, the spoils, the incredible, wondrous, magical physics and technologies and breakthroughs available from a high-tech civilization in ruins, all you gotta do is find a library.
	And the library will be in the form that we can probably translate with computers and chips and the full state-of-the-art we now have.
	All right, I'll give you this, Richard.
	If there is a library, and it's on Mars or it's on the moon, it would have been a logical place, either place, would have been a logical one for them to have left archives for us to find.
	Go back to 2001, whatever.
	Let's assume the worst case scenario and something happens and everything disappears tomorrow morning.
	On Earth.
	Right?
	Kaku's thing would have done that.
	What is it?
	WR104?
	WR104.
	Yes.
	Think of your channel in Sirius.
	Yeah, and I'm not sure I agree with the astrophysics of that, but that's a whole other discussion.
	The point is, let's assume something terrible happens and everybody dies.
	That'll be a moot point.
	Yeah, all the stuff.
	By the way, under that scenario, humans and biology and dogs and cats and pussycats and begonias would all be dead.
	But all our industry, our infrastructure, our technology would not be.
	It would quietly degrade like those films, you know, Earth Without People, over decades and millennia.
	Right.
	Now suppose an alien civilization comes and finds this little blue planet.
	They land.
	They don't know, obviously, the names of any of the places they're going to land, but they land on, let's say, Las Vegas.
	Just pick Las Vegas.
	All right?
	All the movies do.
	You might as well.
	If they dig deep underground, let's say 10, 20, 30, 40 feet, they'll find stuff.
	And they'll find it in fairly good condition, because it will have been protected because of dirt and sand and stuff on top of it, and there's no oxygen underground if you get down deep enough.
	What if they find a computer?
	They're probably more likely to find a slot machine.
	What if they find more than one computer?
	What if they land, you know, in the middle of Chicago or Los Angeles?
	In other words, what's the main way that our civilization has now of preserving and storing and archiving zillions of copies of the same stuff?
	Well, I don't know if a hard drive would make it.
	Maybe one of the new digital babies.
	And we're a whisker away from optical crystal storage media.
	It's true.
	Which are basically rocks.
	That's why rocks last billions of years.
	So we're going to have media which very shortly are going to be immortal by any civilization standard.
	And there's going to be a zillion copies of everything ever done.
	Which means it's not we have to find a centralized library art.
	All we have to do is find one of their computers that still works.
	That's right.
	And on the moon, it's going to be duck soup because nothing has happened on the moon for millions and millions and millions of years.
	And certainly if you get down deep enough underground, nothing has disturbed it.
	So yeah, a human expedition that goes and looks for the libraries will eventually find them.
	And of course, to short circuit this around, my feeling is That Kennedy's real reason for sending our guys to the moon was to find the archives and bring it back and put it to benefit for all mankind, and that's why they killed him.
	And the data I have that supports that is that 12 days after he agreed to go there with Khrushchev, they bumped him off and then they put Khrushchev under house arrest and he died a broken man, sitting on a rocker on his porch, when the world went nuts into a huge spiral of new weapons development.
	Yes it did.
	And I know that he and Kennedy were in touch because Ted Sorensen, who was almost like Kennedy's spiritual soul brother, they were like brothers, they thought the same, they talked the same, they wrote the same, they had the same philosophy.
	Without Sorensen, Kennedy would not have been the genius orator that he was.
	Alright, here's a rub that I see, Richard.
	Can I finish my point?
	In Sorensen's book called Counselor, he describes how from the day JFK walked into the Oval Office, he would give Sorensen an envelope with a letter for Khrushchev, separate from State, separate from the DOD, really separate from the CIA, Yes.
	Ted would walk down into the middle of Washington, D.C., down Pennsylvania Avenue.
	He'd stand on a corner, and a guy from the KGB would come up to him with a folded copy of the Washington Post.
	But we don't know what was in this, right?
	Yes, we do.
	How do we know?
	Because Sorensen reports it in his book.
	And he says what was in it?
	From day one, he was trying to get Khrushchev to go to the moon with the United States.
	And when Khrushchev finally told his son in the garden of their dock outside Moscow in late, late fall of 1963, I've decided I can trust this man.
	It was after the Cuban Missile Crisis.
	Right, right, right.
	Twelve days later, Kennedy was killed.
	Lyndon Johnson and the chief of, I forget who the congressman was in the House, introduced legislation forbidding Well, you weave a fascinating possibility.
	Here's what I want to say, Richard.
	Union in going to the moon.
	Well, you weave a fascinating possibility.
	Here's what I want to say, Richard.
	If this is proven true, if it somehow, in any way, ends up suggesting to the world that
	the source of life on Earth is other than as written in the good book, we've got problems.
	You mean intelligent life?
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah.
	Well, we're going to have problems anyway.
	Because science is... Those are big ones.
	Those are really, really big ones.
	You've got JC calls you all the time.
	If JC were confronted tomorrow with evidence of a lunar civilization, Do you think it would matter of wit to him?
	No.
	Do you think he would pay attention?
	No, he would banish them to boiling pits of sewage.
	Yeah, sewage, right.
	And he would refuse to acknowledge the existence of the information.
	My feeling for decades, and I think this is what Brookings was saying, is that those people will wrap themselves in a bubble, inside an enigma, inside a freezer, And they will totally be unsazed by this because their life continues regardless of the facts of science that would intrude on their view of the universe.
	What would really happen is that the smart people on the planet would seize the opportunity to break out of the prison and the shackles we're currently in.
	They would take these technologies, put them to use to free people from being demeaning slaves and become, you know, rulers of their own destiny.
	They would stop despoiling the earth, contaminating the planet, ruining the nest.
	Maybe.
	Maybe.
	Well, technologies I'm talking about are the same technologies you were talking about with Stephen the other night.
	If Genesis was no longer true in the minds of those who looked at the evidence, there'd be big trouble, Richard.
	Big trouble.
	I don't agree.
	That is a philosophical perspective, and we have a right to disagree.
	See, this is how bookings Brookings uses this as a club to basically threaten everybody in this report.
	Okay, let's talk about clubs for a second.
	How big a club would that be?
	That would mean to a lot of people, okay, Genesis, wrong, new information, right.
	No afterlife, no heaven, no hell, no punishment for the evil.
	Why do the two go hand-in-hand?
	Well, you're hitting the underpinnings of religion, Richard, really hard when you say life didn't originate... Look, if Genesis goes, a lot goes.
	Or Genesis gets reinterpreted, and my feeling is those who are fundamentally religious will continue to believe what they want to believe, data notwithstanding, and the rest of us can move on to create a real civilization on this planet.
	Well, maybe we need a new assessment of what would happen.
	Maybe we need a new Brookings.
	Yeah, oh, that would be fantastic.
	But remember, a few minutes ago I talked about the report from Iron Mountain, which was commissioned under Kennedy as an alternative to what he foresaw as a perpetual state of war on planet Earth.
	And he tasked certain people, and there's huge controversy over was the study that came out real?
	Was it satire?
	You know, the way you dismiss real stuff is you make fun of it, then nobody believes it.
	Given all the things that report from Iron Mountain, which Robin has done numerous shows on, with extraordinary reception by our audience, because they're dumbfounded, that all of the things forecast in that report, which was published in the early 60s, have come true!
	Including the idea of the need to perpetuate perpetual war on Earth to maintain control in the absence of peace that would create such uncertainties and such depression in the economy that civilization itself would crumble.
	Sounds awfully, awfully like the fear porn of Brookings.
	We may have turned the corner on that one.
	Well, wait until Syria turns out.
	Well, yeah, exactly.
	One of their possibilities that they offered as an alternative to endless war, a la Orwell, was a huge space program that would basically have the budget of the Pentagon.
	I mean, look, NASA spends, I'm going to use round numbers now, about $16 billion a year.
	The Pentagon is up in the hundreds of billions a year.
	Good point.
	NASA's down in the noise.
	People seem to think NASA has all the money in the world.
	No, they have a pittance of what we spend on ways, better ways, to kill people.
	Cruise missiles, stealth drones.
	I'm with you all the way.
	I know.
	You're right.
	The disparity in the spending is obvious.
	What the report from Iron Mountain said was, well, one way to move from a war economy, which has all kinds of ancillary benefits.
	You know, we lose a few thousand people here and there in some wars, but frankly, society is so big It needs the economy, it needs the technological development, it needs all the stimulus.
	We can live with that.
	The only alternative they propose that might counter that would be a super big pentagon-sized budget space program.
	I'd love to see it.
	I would too, but this was formulated before NASA's first missions into the solar system and to the moon.
	Now, of course, if the objective of the controllers is control, you can't possibly have a big unlimited space program because, my God, you can't control it.
	They'll find out what's really out there.
	They'll find out their real history.
	They'll find out all the incredible technologies that make oil and all the other control mechanisms obsolete.
	Holy cow, we can't have that!
	So what have we seen from NASA?
	We've had a long, slow attrition down to death.
	Yes, indeed.
	Alright, so, being in the middle of this attrition, it's my view, Richard, that a NASA guy or gal would say...
	Oh my God!
	If, you know, our agency is going to hell in a handbasket, if we can get information out to the public and the world like this, we're going to get all the money that's going into those bombs and cruise missiles, and we're going to be able to go to Mars, we're going to be able to go to the moon and well beyond, because we've proven there's a reason to do it, and so they'd want to release the information.
	That's a very linear view.
	That if everything else was equal, I would say you're probably right.
	And that's been one of the biggest criticisms of our model for decades.
	This would be a gold card for NASA.
	Why the hell don't they do it?
	Right.
	Which means there must be a bigger counterforce that keeps them from doing it.
	Oh, have I mentioned the bodies?
	Have I mentioned the various NASA personnel who have shown up dead?
	Really, really, really dead in various places over the last 30, 40 years.
	There's only so dead you can be, but yes, go ahead.
	I mean, haven't there been that many?
	It doesn't have to be the right people, or in this case, the wrong people, at the wrong place at the wrong time, up to and including some astronauts.
	Like Pete Conrad years ago, he was the commander of Apollo 12.
	That took the pictures that are picture number three, corroborates the geometry taken by Surveyor.
	A few years ago, Pete Conrad, who was very much into space industrialization, he was one of those guys who couldn't figure out why we hadn't aggressively taken advantage of all the amazing resources in space, created a space-bound civilization to do some of the economic things that we've been talking about tonight.
	Pete is about to speak at a major space conference in Houston.
	And Conrad loved to ride his motorbike.
	You know, big chopper.
	I think it may even have been a Harley.
	He's out with some friends.
	He takes a curve a little too fast.
	He skids and he falls over on the road.
	He gets up and his friends say, you know, that was a pretty bad spill.
	You should go to the hospital.
	He's fine.
	He's got some scrapes and nothing is wrong with him.
	He goes to the hospital.
	He never comes out.
	I don't need more bodies.
	I'm sure you're going to come up with a lot of people.
	Including people stashed behind fences, people assassinated in a roadside rest in Maryland, So you're thinking this is so serious that NASA has had people... I didn't say NASA.
	No, these are NASA people that are so far above NASA.
	Yes, the shadow government.
	Whoever the controllers use to keep people in line.
	I mean, remember, the freakout was that Snowden was a contractor of a contractor.
	And it's obvious to me that he had careful help.
	He did not do this on his own.
	I've got evidence that this was actually planned, and he did not wind up in Russia by accident.
	That's part of the plan.
	It's where the guys would get rid of him.
	The reason he doesn't come back and do, you know, like Ellsberg, they're going to kill him.
	Look what they did to Hastings.
	Michael Hastings, the journalist who was killed.
	Right, I know you can keep rattling them off, but... I can keep going because it's the truth that we need to look at right in the face, and that answers the question, why don't we have whistleblowers who simply cheerfully talk about what's really on the moon and Mars?
	Now, what I think they're doing on this mission to the moon, I think they've set this up either for the most amazing revelation that will be unstoppable, or they've set themselves up to really check this out so they can make the decision If they're going to release something... All right, here's a question for you, Richard.
	After all the missions there have been to Mars and the Moon, manned and unmanned, why do you think they would pick this mission to... You're going to love this answer.
	I hope so.
	Are you ready?
	Yeah, oh yes.
	Because Barack Hussein Obama is president.
	He's the guy.
	You're right, I kind of like the answer.
	He's the guy who has been picked to do this.
	Now, I have completely independent data.
	I've been watching this guy, Michael Hawke, back when he was just a twinkle in the eye of the pollsters, when he was at 20% in the polls.
	In 2007, I predicted he was going to win the presidency, and I was so certain based on my data, I made a bet with George.
	And my bet with George was that if I won, meaning the President was elected, I would get to host Coast all by myself, pick my own guests, do an entire four-hour show on whatever I chose, and I've got that in the bank.
	I have not played that card because it hasn't been time.
	Yeah.
	Well, good luck with that.
	And hold on for a moment.
	We're going to take a break here.
	And then, you know, I do want to go to the next photograph.
	The next photograph is the launch with the frog.
	And I actually don't know the whole story.
	I've seen the picture, but it's awesome.
	So we'll do that when we come back.
	From the high desert, this is Dark Matter.
	I'm making time to get ready.
	To realize just what I am now.
	I have been over half of what I am.
	It's all clear to me now.
	The End The End
	Once upon a time, once when you were mine.
	I remember your smiles reflected in your eyes.
	I wonder where you are. I wonder if you think about me.
	Once upon a time, beyond the wildest dreams.
	To be part of Dark Matter this night, please direct your finger digits to dial 1-855-REAL-UFO.
	That's 1-855-732-5836.
	Hang on to those numbers.
	We are going to open lines.
	Richard is going to take questions from listeners.
	Coming up, I want to direct your attention to the next photograph.
	What number would this be, Richard?
	Richard?
	Richard.
	Richard's not there.
	Did we lose Richard?
	Apparently.
	We must have lost Richard.
	Okay, well, they'll get him back on the line.
	Eventually.
	I want to know about this frog.
	Now, I wonder if this frog was photoshopped on there.
	Exactly.
	We're going to get into exactly all that.
	There you are.
	You don't think it was photoshopped, do you?
	I don't know.
	I have been to the Cape a million times.
	Okay, you've got another radio behind you there.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	You have a weird delay.
	I'm serious.
	I don't know why.
	Well, it's a satellite delay.
	Don't worry about it.
	Just turn off the radio.
	Geez, why do I have to tell Richard Hoagland to turn off the radio?
	We've made news tonight.
	Oh?
	Yeah, the reason I wanted this up there is because given the implications of this mission, I thought it was very bizarre.
	That out of all the NASA missions that I have covered over decades, I mean, I've been at the Cape for launches, I've been at the pads, I've seen where the cameras are.
	Do you know that Florida is a swamp?
	More or less.
	Do you know what stops having them overwhelmingly in abundance?
	A lot of frogs?
	Lots of insects.
	Tons of insects.
	You can't stand there without being bitten to death and eaten to death by every creepy, crawly creature you can imagine.
	Oh, I know.
	So there's zillions of frogs eating all the little insects that would try to eat you.
	This, in the entire history of the space program, this is the first time we have ever seen a frog jumping away from a launch pad camera.
	And we've got millions of cameras and millions of feet of film, right?
	Yeah.
	Now it's all electronic.
	So, you know, Hoagland with his conspiratorial turn of mind when it comes to NASA, It knows that they are into symbolism and ritual and secret messaging and all that.
	So the frog is a symbol.
	It says, is the frog potentially a message about this mission?
	So I thought and I thought and I thought, and again, I'm totally speculating.
	Oh no, I've got it for you, Richard.
	I'm jumping off point.
	That's one really good one.
	Mine was a little more pointed.
	Okay.
	If all we've talked about tonight and all your religious implications and all the extraordinary rent of civilization that you believe would happen if we were to Confirm this information that we're not alone and we build all this stuff.
	Richard, stop.
	Don't, don't put that on me.
	Don't put that on me.
	I'm, I'm just saying it is something that has to be considered.
	I'm not saying the world would go nuts.
	In fact, I even said maybe there ought to be another Brookings.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So I'm just saying it's, it's got to be considered.
	No, no.
	I want to be absolutely straight down the middle on this.
	Good.
	But if this has huge game changing implications, should we put it that way?
	Which number picture is the frog?
	Five.
	Number five.
	Five.
	All right, folks, go to artbell.com and go to picture number five.
	It is a pretty cool picture, actually.
	It's a frog right in the middle of the launch.
	Here is this airborne frog.
	When the Minotaur rockets lighted up, obviously, if it's a real picture, he jumped, you know, freaked out.
	How would you like to have your quiet lily pad disturbed by a Using hyper-dimensional measuring techniques, Richard.
	How far is this frog from the camera?
	Actually, that's a very good question.
	There's a lot of blogs and websites that have actually been working this out, and they think he may have been far enough away to survive the launch.
	He's much closer to the camera than he is to the launch pad.
	And they used angles and geometry and trig and all that.
	My question is, NASA made a big deal about this.
	Whenever NASA makes a big deal about anything, I get very curious.
	And I ask myself, what is the subliminal subtext?
	What's the real message?
	And my speculation was, symbolically, out of the frying pan, into the fire.
	To the fire!
	Oh, Richard, I love you.
	Or a jumping off point, or... Yeah, I really like yours, because it goes with number six.
	Let's cut to photograph number six.
	Oh, good.
	We need to make it through these.
	Yep, we will.
	We've got just enough time to do this.
	Number six... Isn't it wonderful?
	Have you noticed, by the way, with extraterrestrial radio you actually have time to have a conversation?
	I've noticed.
	Lunar laser communications demonstration.
	Okay.
	We currently communicate with spacecraft all over the solar system.
	When I say we, I mean NASA and ESSA and the Russians and the Japanese and all that by means of radio.
	Right.
	Very, very high frequency radio.
	It's called S-band and X-band.
	It's in the gigahertz range, but it's basically radio.
	Right.
	Radio is limited when you want to really send a lot of information down a pipeline to Earth Especially across millions and millions and millions of miles.
	It can also be eavesdropped on.
	You've got to stop reading my mind, Mr. Bell.
	So, it has been discussed for literally since Surveyor.
	They did a laser experiment 40 years ago, 47 years ago, on Surveyor, where they shone laser beams up at the Surveyor spacecraft And they use TV cameras to actually see the little tiny spot beams on the night side of the Earth.
	Right.
	As a prelude to someday using laser communication.
	Now, why would lasers be a really big step forward?
	Because, as everybody now knows, watch any commercials, because all of our telephone calls, even this phone call, is sent at some point via laser through fiber optics.
	They can hold billions and billions of telephone calls on a laser beam.
	Yes.
	Or you can send zillions of photographs, high definition, 3D holograms, you name it.
	You've got the bandwidth using lasers that you don't... All of that and I can't get a good clean phone connection with you.
	Exactly.
	But we don't know about lasers here in New Mexico.
	Anyway, so on of all missions, what do they put this super duper expensive, complicated, and really snazzy laser communication system on?
	Of all the missions we've ever sent anywhere in the solar system for the last 50 years, this mission.
	Now, in honest truth, the three instruments that they're going to be publicly using to take data on lunar dust and the atmosphere basically have minuscule bandwidth requirements.
	It doesn't take a lot of bandwidth to send bar graphs or squiggly lines.
	Right?
	Right.
	So they've got a super communication system which could send, you know, the Library of Congress in an hour, and they've got nothing to put on that end.
	Except, this goes back to my friend who emailed me a few days ago, they've got these two weird horn-shaped things on the top of the spacecraft, which I finally tracked down, And the engineering guys say those are what are called Star Tracker cameras.
	Cameras?
	Cameras.
	This spacecraft, not advertised to anybody unless you dig, dig, dig, dig, are carrying two cameras.
	And if you look at the size of those light baffles, they appear to be really super duper cameras.
	All right, so let me jump ahead, and here's what we're going to do.
	Go ahead and read my mind now.
	Read my mind.
	We're going to take the pictures with these secret cameras, we're going to beam it back to Earth, not using radio that can be intercepted, but lasers that cannot, and then we're going to decide whether we want to tell the world what we just found.
	Mr. Bell, you go to the head of the class.
	Well, you know what, Richard?
	Nobody more than me hopes that you're right.
	I really, honest to God, I hope you're right, Richard.
	Well, the frog in the pond is, are they going to decide to tell us or not?
	Oh, and I got a little cutie.
	I've been looking at the orbit.
	You know, I do orbits.
	I look at spacecraft.
	I look at coverage.
	I look at geometry.
	This darn thing is going to go to the moon.
	It's taking a month to get there, which gives you time to check out instruments, right?
	Sure.
	Nothing else to do.
	You turn them on, you point them at various... They've got a solar telescope that's going to be looking at the Sun so they can see if this dust that they think is what's causing the light above the horizon is due to the blockage of dust.
	You can do that anywhere between here and the Moon.
	You don't have to be in lunar orbit to look at the Sun and see if the damn thing is working.
	The same with the UVS spectrometer and the same with the particle detector.
	They're going to spend a month In high lunar orbit, checking out the instruments before they lower the orbit to where they actually begin to officially do science.
	And I think that month is a license to find out all kinds of cool things and then decide whether you're going to tell anybody.
	They did the same thing when Malin sent the first camera to Mars on Mars Surveyor.
	They had a block of period called Checkout, and an academic, Stan McDaniel, at Sonoma State University, wrote a scathing indictment of the fact that their reasoning made zero logical sense from a scientific perspective, from a mission perspective, from an economic perspective, from an operations perspective, and he basically said These guys are going to use this time to photograph Sidonius secretly and decide what's there and if they're going to tell anybody.
	Because the press doesn't care about checkout.
	They only get interested vaguely when the actual mission is supposed to begin.
	So if you want to do something in public but in secret, You simply say, oh, we're going to just be doing engineering checkouts, and no one in Washington is going to give a damn.
	Maybe.
	I hope you're right.
	Ms.
	Mag says, on the frog, Richard, it's just a giant leap for frog kind.
	Sorry.
	Couldn't resist.
	It is a hell of a picture, though.
	I'll give you that.
	And are we almost through the pictures?
	Because I want to get phones going here.
	Well, I want to go to number seven.
	And then we can go through these quickly because there's going to be zero controversy, I hope.
	You know, when one is talking to art, one never knows, but there should be zero controversy.
	Go to seven.
	I'm there.
	All right.
	This is a beautiful mosaic shot with the onboard camera of our little Curiosity one-ton nuclear-powered rover loaded for bear.
	It is gorgeous.
	And it's got all kinds of really cool instrumentation.
	Everything you ever wanted to know about Mars' environment, or Mars' atmosphere, or surface composition, or the ruins of an ancient civilization, this robot can tell us.
	And what it's been doing for the last year, since August 6th, It looks like it's sitting on somebody's old terrace.
	How's that for seeing stuff?
	Well, it is sitting on a bunch of, like, flagstones.
	Very good.
	That's what I said, terrace.
	Or the lowest area of the crater it could reach in the last year.
	It's going to go to the mountain, you know, in the next year.
	But they sent it to the lowest place because that's, of course, as you're going to see when you read Part 1 and Part 2 of my Curiosity expose on EnterpriseMission.com.
	It only takes one white crow.
	You know this old Apache saying, right?
	No, really.
	It only takes one white crow to prove all crows aren't black.
	Think about it.
	If we're proposing that there's an E.T.
	civilization all over the solar system that's left zillions and zillions of things in various states of ruin.
	Right.
	All we got to do is find one.
	Just one.
	Yeah, and Mars does seem a logical place to me, that there once was a civilization.
	After all, it had an atmosphere, it had a lot of stuff we don't know about that got wiped out.
	So, yeah, Mars is... Well, the difference between Mars and the Moon is, on the Moon, you need a high technology to live.
	It's kind of like the... Well, you need a dome.
	Well, yeah, you need a dome to keep the air in.
	And you only build those by having high technology.
	A la Kaku and Kardashev, a really high technology.
	Type 2, Type 3.
	Exactly.
	Well, I'm just restricting my projections to Type 2.
	Because Type 2, by the way, we're not going to go to 1.
	We're going to leap to 2.
	If any of this comes out, we leap to 2 immediately.
	Okay.
	And we'll get to that later on to support questions.
	We got, what, an hour?
	No, half an hour.
	Oh no, we've got an hour and a half.
	Okay, but I mean until we want to get to questions.
	Oh, any minute now.
	So hurry.
	Thanks.
	So anyway, this thing is prowling around on those wonderful wheels.
	It weighs one ton.
	It's got 17 cameras alone on this thing.
	Black and white and color.
	It is beautiful.
	It's a beautiful machine.
	And it's nuclear powered.
	Do you know the Voyagers are nuclear-powered, and the Voyager 1 just penetrated into interstellar space the last year or so?
	Right.
	And it's been 30-some years en route.
	Do you know what the projections for the lifetime of the power supply in Curiosity could be, if they can keep the thing just going?
	I'd like to know.
	What are they?
	Over a hundred years.
	Wow.
	That's a while.
	And remember, Spirit and Opportunity are going strong.
	After seven or eight years, at least, Opportunity is.
	And they were projected to have lifetimes of 90 days.
	Well, credit where credit is due, Richard.
	They really know how to build these things.
	And getting this down to the surface was amazing.
	Okay, so we got down to the surface in this miracle sky crane landing on the early dawn of August 6th.
	I did a live show with George narrating everything all the way down to the surface.
	Yeah, it was amazing.
	Absolutely amazing.
	So then let's go to photograph number 8.
	OK.
	I like it.
	Let's go to 8.
	And I presume a lot of people are following with us.
	By the way, things are crashing.
	My little message wormhole has just been down about 10 times.
	Anyway, OK, here we are on 8.
	And right away, I kind of don't like it.
	OK.
	What am I looking at?
	Exactly.
	What are you looking at?
	Well, that's why I don't like it, Richard.
	I can't tell.
	You can't tell?
	It's not a rock.
	Rocks aren't shiny blue.
	No.
	They don't have cylinders coming out of them looking like pipes.
	They don't have copper-colored flanges on the ends of some of the cylinders.
	Well, I don't know.
	There might be blue rocks on Mars.
	White, right?
	Yeah, there might.
	That have specular metallic sheen reflections On the side facing the sun and the camera?
	I do see that, yes.
	That's a piece of junk.
	It's a piece of mangled, battered machinery that, by the way, was uncovered by the rocket blast of the Skycrane descent rockets as Curiosity landed.
	How can you not know that it's part of the landing apparatus?
	Oh, absolutely not.
	No, it's not.
	How do you know that?
	Because there's nothing like that on the spacecraft, and it didn't... The Skycrane, when it left... The way the entry happened is you had a big heat shield, thing zaps into Mars' atmosphere at 13,000 miles an hour, takes 7 screaming minutes to go from the stratosphere all the way to the surface, the last few thousand feet it is lowered on a device called a Skycrane, which basically was a rocket-powered Helicopter kind of craft, with boards set to rockets.
	As it's hovering on the rockets, like an old 1950s sci-fi movie, it lowers Curiosity on nylon ropes to the surface.
	The computer then senses the lack of weight when the wheels touch the ground.
	The sky crane cuts with squibs the nylon ropes, and the sky crane dashes off into the atmosphere I saw the simulation, and what I'm asking is, how do you know that some little piece of something didn't break off?
	There'd be no way to not know that.
	Well, this is not little.
	This is about the size of a telephone.
	One of those old-fashioned rotary phones.
	Right.
	It looks to me like a pump.
	It looks like a pump.
	There's an old engineering axiom, form follows function.
	If you have to build a device to pump fluids, be it on Mars, on the Moon, on Alpha Centauri, wherever, it's got to kind of look very similar to anything you build on Earth.
	Because it's got to have a way to pump fluids, and fluids have a certain Reynolds number, and a certain pressure, and a certain flow rate, and all that.
	So a device to pump fluids will kind of look Like a device to pump fluids, regardless of the culture.
	You know, I can't go there with you, Richard.
	I'm sorry.
	I see it, and it does look weird, and blue is weird, and that's about as far as I can go.
	Okay.
	Well, let's go to the next one.
	Okay.
	Number nine.
	Number nine.
	Takes me a second.
	Bear with me.
	Number nine.
	Okay.
	What are we looking at with number nine?
	After they landed, they spent about two months They're trekking on the wheels east to a place called Glen Elg.
	And on the way they took lots and lots and lots of pictures.
	This was one of the pictures.
	What is that?
	Exactly.
	What is that?
	It's not a rock.
	How do we know it's not a rock?
	Now that one, that one, that one... It's too damn symmetrical.
	Yeah, that one is way too symmetrical.
	That really... And it's got a pipe sticking out of it.
	And it's shiny too.
	And it's shiny.
	It's got a pipe sticking out of it right toward the camera.
	Alright, I see it.
	Alright folks, if you haven't looked at anything else, you need to go to Artbell.com and this is, I'm sorry, what, number ten?
	Nine.
	Number nine.
	Number nine.
	Look at picture number nine.
	What in the hell is this?
	See, you can't ascribe what these things are because it's really... You know, I see the pipe, Richard.
	I see the pipe.
	Yeah.
	And it looks like it's all corroded metal.
	Oxidized.
	Right.
	My God, I just made it bigger.
	What is that?
	That is not natural.
	It's not a rock.
	There's no way that's natural.
	It only takes one white crow.
	Art, you have just officially confirmed the presence of an ancient technological civilization on Mars.
	Um... Darn it, have I really done that?
	I've got so many damn images I've been spending months trying to write part two of the One White Crow series because I've got too many examples and I'm trying to distill the best context.
	Alright, this is undeniable in the sense that there's no way this is natural.
	Picture number nine, there's no way it's natural.
	The only thing I can do is say, Richard, are you sure this was not somehow From our spacecraft, or previous spacecrafts, or whatever?
	Well, for one thing, what are the odds that previous missions will be able to land on a planet with a surface area equivalent to all the continents on Earth within a couple hundred feet of the one that came after?
	Second, we've never been to Gale Crater.
	Right, not big odds.
	It's never been imparted.
	Yeah, this one is suspicious.
	It's incredibly suspicious.
	Remember, it only takes one white crow to prove all crows aren't black.
	Yep, yep.
	Moving on, let's go to number 10.
	Boy, I really like number 9, Richard.
	Do I have to leave?
	Wow.
	Number 9 is a wow.
	To me, that's a wow.
	Maybe some other people looking at it out there will have something else to say, but to me, that is a wow.
	You don't wow me frequently, but you did with that.
	All right, here we are at number 10, for the sake of hurrying along here, and we have a... Well, to be neutral, I'm calling it a shattered sphere.
	It's bluish.
	It's round.
	Are you sure that these colors we're seeing... Oh, the colors are absolutely accurate.
	Nope, they're absolutely accurate.
	You're sure?
	Unequivocally sure.
	See, what you do is you go to the original, when I post part two, which has these in better, bigger format, and many, many, many, many, many more.
	That's what's taken so long.
	I'm posting links back to the original NASA data archives at JPL.
	Every frame has a frame number.
	They've been posting all these images.
	The inside leakers have been leaking all the good stuff And they know nothing will happen unless an official at NASA says these are artificial.
	We live in a culture which now I know that we are on the cusp of something huge.
	It's been building up.
	This is good, Richard.
	Number nine is better, but this is good.
	All right, listen.
	I'm going to instruct them to begin.
	Go ahead, open up the lines and begin to get some calls for Richard, please.
	You can start now because we're going to do that shortly, Richard.
	We've really got to.
	You got me with number nine, buddy.
	It only took us three hours, 27 minutes and 10 seconds.
	Well, you didn't show me number nine that long ago, so... Yeah.
	No, look, the way I like to do things is you build slowly.
	Building a case is like a lawyer.
	You have to lay foundation.
	You have to get people used to the idea, and a lot of our audience has never heard any of this stuff, and they're obviously thinking you've got this lunatic who thinks, even though I work for NASA and Cronkite, that, you know, there's stuff out there and people out there and all this, and of course we know that's not true, Well, it only takes one white crow to change the paradigm.
	And I've given you now three objects.
	Two out of three, you really can't explain as rocks.
	Number nine got me.
	I know of no way to explain number nine.
	On that note, hold on Richard, hold on.
	We're really going to go to the phones.
	No joke.
	So, our phone number here at Dark Matter is...
	855-REAL-UFO.
	It's easy.
	1-855-REAL-UFO or 1-855-732-5836.
	We are now officially taking calls.
	So be my guest.
	There really is a lot to talk about.
	All I ask is if you want to disagree, be polite.
	You may be All right.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
	It's been one whale of a night, and I bet it's going to get even better.
	dark matter in the nighttime coming to you from the high desert and the great American Southwest.
	Sweet dreams are made of this. Who am I to disagree? I travel the world and the seven seas. Everybody is looking
	for something.
	Oh, it's.
	And we're very serious.
	To call Art Bell, please manipulate your communication device and call 1-855-REAL-UFO.
	That's 1-855-732-5836.
	I really love that one.
	Hi, everybody.
	That's Ross Mitchell, of course.
	I really love that one.
	Hi everybody, that's Ross Mitchell of course.
	Number nine, Tara's it for me.
	There's no question about that.
	If you haven't seen it, go to rfl.com.
	These are the photographs we've been talking about.
	Number 9 is on Mars.
	And if Number 9 is a rock, then I'll eat my phone.
	And it's a big phone, too.
	They call it a grand stream.
	I wouldn't want to have to eat it.
	Number 9's a clincher.
	All right, we're going to begin taking calls.
	No telling what's ahead.
	But I hope you'll be civil.
	I know Richard has a lot of detractors and a lot of supporters.
	But I want you to be civil.
	That's very important.
	And remember the language.
	Art, I have to tell you one thing.
	Robin is not happy with our conversation.
	She thinks we're fighting.
	She says I sound strained and all this.
	Nonsense.
	I'm just passionate.
	And I love a good argument when the opponent has really good points and questions.
	No, Robin, this is not a fight.
	This is the way Richard and I interact.
	It's called radio for a reason.
	Okay, here we go.
	You're on Dark Matter with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Art Bell, this is truly an honor.
	How are you, sir?
	That would be Ross Wells, thank you.
	You know, how many years ago was it that the Vatican actually came out and said the question, if there is life out there, they are our brothers?
	That is not a metaphor.
	They mean it absolutely, 100% for real.
	How long ago was it?
	Two years.
	Two years, okay.
	There's been a progression.
	Look, everybody's been talking, you know, Stephen Bassett's disclosure, the D word.
	I have been seeing so many trend curves pointing us in the direction of the ultimate disclosure that we're so close now.
	If you look at these as political trend curves, I would say we're within a couple of years, maybe, maybe sooner than this stuff is officially acknowledged in some way, which is non-threatening.
	That's why I think the laser system on LADEE and the secret cameras is, I mean, you really nailed it already.
	They want to look before they leap.
	Can I follow up with another question?
	Am I the only one that, when I read the book of Genesis, saw it right there in black and white, they're pretty much admitting it when God says, we will make man in our likeness.
	He was the only one at the time.
	Who was he talking to?
	Because that was before Adam and Eve.
	Exactly.
	There you go.
	All right.
	Fair enough, and maybe if they were to redo Brookings, we'd come up with a whole different answer.
	Let's go here, Dark Matter, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Yeah, hey Richard, I'm a supporter of your premise here, but I was wondering when you use the term civilization, what if they just uncovered like a small complex of structures, like an outpost.
	Would you say that's a civilization or?
	Well, you've got to look at all the missions we've sent, the orbital missions, the landed missions.
	There's stuff on every mission that's all over Mars, just thinking of Mars as one place.
	When you look at all the NASA spacecraft over the last 30, 40 years, which includes, you know,
	the mission to Mercury, the messenger, the mission to Saturn, Cassini,
	the Galileo missions to Jupiter, the mission like Voyager to the outer planets,
	Uranus and Neptune.
	There's artificial stuff that I can build the case for all over the solar system, in which case we're talking about living... Do you remember that movie art that Katharine Hepburn starred in called Love Among the Ruins?
	Not offhand.
	We are living amid the ruins, I believe, of a Type II civilization.
	And we're the dim, dim, dim descendants, 15 million generations removed, of something extraordinary.
	And when Genesis talks about the Fall, frankly, I think this is what it's really referring to.
	Because ultimately, when you lose your history, you lose 99.999% of everybody, And you lose planets in the process of a huge interplanetary war.
	The survivors are going to cling to scraps of information, they're going to mythologize them, they're going to put them on pedestals, they're going to make them sacred, and the things that used to be real and practical will be looked at as metaphors or as examples of something else.
	I think we're living, with genuine homage to Michio and to Kardashev before him, amid the ruins of an extraordinary Type II civilization, and it's now almost time to tell people who we really are.
	No, that's kind of what I was thinking.
	I think that the quote-unquote alien civilization is what we call our civilization now, and relics or artifacts in the solar system may be just remnants of their journey here.
	Well, when I finally get to do the book on all this, which is going to be called The Heritage of Mars, Remembering Forever, I have some stunning genetic data.
	To put in, to corroborate with mainstream papers, which to me, and probably to any objective observer, we're going to find out, proves that the human race, certainly one faction of us, originally lived on Mars.
	I can prove that scientifically.
	Richard, have you ever heard of junk DNA?
	Yeah, of course.
	What if it's not junk?
	Exactly.
	But our evidence is not Having to do with the junk DNA, it has to do with something even more interesting that proves a fraction of the current human, and this is mainstream studies, and the folks doing the studies, which have gone back to the 50s, they didn't know what they got, so again, they just published it, not knowing they should have kept it secret.
	And the cover-up crowd, who are actually not very smart, you know, they're basically operating on some kind of manual You know, they let lots of stuff through, either by design, the long education process that Brooking called for, where you turn up the water slowly on our poor little frog, or it's because they simply don't know what to keep secret, because they don't know any more than we do, and they don't know the key things that will allow someone to put the puzzle together and make a big picture.
	Either that, or you've really annoyed them, Richard, and they're trying to drive you completely insane.
	You're on the air with Richard C. Hogan on Dark Matter.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	Super mega Roswell to you both.
	Thank you.
	Hey, I've got two quick questions, one for Art and one for Richard.
	The other night I was listening to Dr. Greer, and he was talking about all the data that nobody has access to, such as presidents, congressmen, leaders.
	Right.
	Who is guarding this data?
	Is this a modern-day version of the Templars, or what is it?
	That's a better question for Richard.
	Who's guarding the data?
	I think you put your finger on it.
	I think these are ancient secret societies.
	We may not actually know the names, because I always tend to think that everybody who blames the Illuminati and the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers... Look, this suppression, this control is at such a high level, That you don't even know the names of the groups that they're part of.
	Everything else is kind of diversion out front, like those annual meetings of the Bilderbergers.
	That's not how this really originates.
	So, yes, I think you have secret societies.
	I think one of them traces itself all the way back to ancient Egypt, called the Shem Suhor, or the Followers of Horus.
	And their task, when you actually read the ancient Egyptian, Their task is to preserve the fragments of the first time and to restore civilization from before a catastrophe.
	All right, Caller, you're even noisier than Richard, so let's have the other question quickly.
	I've got a few questions for Richard.
	I want to get caught up on everything you guys have been talking about tonight, because I've been kind of out of the loop for a while.
	When can I catch up to, you know, find more of these photos and stuff like that?
	That's a fair question.
	All right, Richard.
	EnterpriseIssion.com.
	I've got part one of an extraordinarily deep exposé on Curiosity, the real secret mission of Curiosity.
	The title is One White Crow, and part two will be up in a few days as soon as I figure out what data I have to eliminate to fit within certain space limits.
	Well, I love number nine, Richard.
	God, I love it.
	It's just great.
	It's your white bird.
	The more you look, the more you see, right?
	It's your white bird.
	And there's more.
	Wait till you see what I'm going to have in part two on the Enterprise mission.
	Dark matter, it's your turn with Richard.
	Hello?
	Going once.
	Are you there, Art?
	I'm here.
	Might as well see you.
	You're breaking up on us.
	Terrible phone.
	I'm sorry.
	There was a probe sent to Mars a few years back that was apparently destroyed by a laser from Mars.
	Did that actually happen?
	No.
	The probe you're talking about is a Mars observer.
	They were putting it into orbit and they suddenly lost communication and of course I I was on CNN with a press conference that very afternoon and I said on the record that this is the way you take the mission black.
	And with the sophistication of computers, even back in the early 90s, what used to take hundreds of people sitting in a mission control, you could run with five guys in a basement and a few laptops.
	So I always felt Mars Observer disappeared So that, again, they could look at what they were going to see and make the political decision, do we tell them or do we wait?
	Okay, I've got a question, Richard.
	Okay.
	Look, it's about Number 9.
	Yep.
	Number 9 is not a natural object.
	Is it possible that Number 9 could be something... I mean, the Russians launched a lot of stuff that crashed on Mars, right?
	No, they didn't.
	No.
	They had two missions that landed.
	Well, they had three missions that disappeared.
	They had one that landed and for a few seconds, like maybe 10 seconds after landing, it was transmitting and then it stopped and they think that maybe the high winds, you know, took the parachute and turned it over so it killed it.
	Right, right.
	But you're talking about, my dear, dear friend, you're grasping at straws.
	There is no way statistically that we could have landed Plus, those landing coordinates were nowhere near Gale Crater from the trajectory analysis.
	That is not an answer.
	I actually have a very good friend who was involved in the early space program from the... I'm grasping at pipes, Richard.
	Anyway, my friend Don used to work on all this stuff.
	He worked at Rocketdyne.
	He was involved with Mercury and Apollo and Gemini and Shuttle.
	He actually, with a straight face, said to me, Oh, this has got to be the German engineering from when the Germans secretly went to Mars.
	And I said to him the same thing I'm telling you, because statistically there is no possible way that we'd wind up in the same place on a planet with a continental area bigger than the Earth.
	Well, it's not a natural object, so I've got to grasp at something.
	There's more than one.
	Dark matter.
	Dark matter.
	You're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello?
	Yes, hello.
	Oh, very nice.
	Finally, I'm so happy to be on.
	It's glad to hear you back, Art.
	Thank you.
	I guess my question for Richard is, if he could talk, and Richard, I'm a big fan of yours, too, at Mike Barr's.
	I love all your work.
	What is the Vatican looking at there at Mount Graham Observatory?
	And I'll take my question off the air.
	Thank you very much.
	That would be your answer, and we'll give it to you, all right.
	Yes, the Vatican has an observatory.
	They certainly do.
	A lot of people don't know that.
	Go ahead, Richard.
	Well, they have two.
	The traditional observatory for the Vatican is at Castel Gandolfo.
	It's just south of Rome.
	It's where the Pope spends his summer home.
	It's also a full-fledged, working, professional observatory.
	And we found out a few years ago, a couple years ago, through a very strange set of circumstances, when the Vatican officially announced that E.T.'
	's could be our brothers, which I looked at as part of this slow disclosure process and slow motion.
	I think that's fair, too.
	We found out that at Castel Gandolfo, in addition to the telescopes and the observatory domes and all that, the Pope has his own meteorite collection.
	Wow.
	Now what the hell does the Pope, sorry, have a meteorite collection?
	Unless he knows because of ancient, sacred documents.
	Remember, there's always been the rumors of what's in the Vatican archives underneath Rome when the Library of Alexandria burned.
	You're talking about the current Pope, right?
	Well, every Pope.
	Every Pope?
	Every Pope.
	It's part of the Church.
	It's the Pope.
	It's not any given Pope.
	It's the papacy has a meteorite collection.
	And there's a custodian, there's a Jesuit priest, who's in charge, who was actually giving press conferences and interviews right after the announcement by the, what's his name in London, that the L.E.T.' 's could be our brothers.
	When I found out that the papacy has an official meteorite collection, that to me was a ding ding ding ding ding, because that's part of the trail of evidence.
	Remember, our model is A la the late Dr. Tom Van Planderen, which is a shame he's not around so you can talk to him these days about all this.
	His model was there used to be another planet between Mars, between Earth and Jupiter.
	I recall, yes.
	Of which Mars was a moon, a satellite.
	And it somehow blew up.
	And the meteorites and all the junk that's coursing around the sun now is basically the shrapnel from that extraordinary seminal event in solar system history, and the Pope has his own collection of those pieces?
	Just connect the dots.
	Right, okay.
	Dark Matter, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Don't we wish that Malachi Martin was still with us?
	Oh, yes.
	Hello?
	Are you there?
	Yes.
	Hello, can you hear me?
	Yes, we hear you.
	Go ahead.
	Excellent.
	Hey, yeah.
	Great to talk to you guys.
	I just wanted to ask Richard about the Dark Knight satellite.
	I mean, is that thing real?
	I can't find any information on it.
	I mean, what the heck is it?
	Okay, what he's talking about, Art, is in the 1950s, the government, and NASA didn't exist then, of course, it's before 58, announced, this is before the launch of Sputnik, And before the launch of Explorer 1, our own first satellite.
	And there was some object in polar orbit that they called the Dark Knight.
	And there were a couple of news stories, including in the Washington Post.
	I've got the actual stories.
	And then all references and knowledge disappeared.
	Now you know as much as I do.
	Okay.
	Fascinating.
	That's something to look into, isn't it?
	Hi there, Dark Matter, you're on with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello Art.
	Hi.
	Manny Roswell from up in Victoria, British Columbia.
	My question for your guest, it actually applies to last night's guest as well, but it's this.
	All the information that he's presenting, has it been offered up for scientific peer review, and if so, Where would we be able to read the reports of those reviews?
	And I'll take my answer off air.
	Thank you.
	Okay, Richard, any peer review of Number 9?
	No.
	Why not?
	Exactly, why not?
	For a mission which is named Curiosity, Number 9 is only one of dozens and dozens and dozens of objects.
	I mean, Port Keith this afternoon He said stop when I got to my 13th image.
	I get it.
	So, no, there will not be peer review because peer review is an exquisite censoring system.
	Yeah, but you can't have that many number nines.
	This is too good.
	Oh, we've got more.
	Wait till you see.
	There are more number nines for you.
	Really?
	Okay, yes.
	All right, here's a number eight for you.
	You're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Am I on?
	You're on.
	You are on, yes.
	I don't believe it.
	I have a question about... You have a really good phone line.
	Thank you.
	I'm really glad you're back, Art.
	I spent at least three days getting this X thing together for my 97-year-old young mother to listen to you.
	Because she's your greatest fan.
	Oh, what's her name?
	Her name is Annette.
	Annette, good evening.
	And she will be listening to this.
	There's a delay.
	I'm so shocked I'm on.
	But I do have a question.
	Is it possible, along with these other questions, the British had a ship that went up and it crashed, called the Beagle.
	Yep.
	Could this be some debris, possibly, from the Beagle?
	We know where Beagle landed and it's nowhere near Gale Crater.
	Okay.
	It's actually photographed from orbit, from Mars orbit, with the high-rise camera on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter spacecraft.
	The smash of debris of poor little Beagle as it hit the ground.
	Young lady, listen, obviously you've seen number nine, right?
	Yes.
	Your opinion?
	Well, it certainly looks like some sort of electronic equipment.
	And I certainly see the pipe coming out, and it doesn't resemble the rocks.
	No.
	So I really, I can't tell you.
	It's certainly an anomaly, if that will work.
	Well, it works.
	It's not a natural object, right?
	Correct.
	Well, if it's not natural, it's got to be artificial.
	Bingo!
	Exactly.
	Yeah, you've got to give him that one.
	Thank you.
	It's really black and white.
	Yes.
	There are a few questions in the universe that are so clear-cut.
	Remember, it only takes one white crow.
	Right, right.
	I'm with you there, white bird.
	Okay, let's see.
	Number nine, lucky number nine.
	You're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Okay.
	Hi, Richard.
	Yes, sir.
	My question is, we're talking about types of civilization.
	So, I'm wondering, if these have disabilities to terraform and atmosphere and stuff like that, why would they put just the domes on the Moon instead of just terraforming the whole thing?
	Well, if you terraform the Moon, if you don't use artificial gravity, the atmosphere will leak away in a relatively short period of time.
	A few thousand years, I think.
	It's called the Jeans Number, named after a very famous British astronomer back in the 19th century, Sir James Jeans, and you can actually do a calculation based on distance from the sun, meaning temperature, size of the planet, meaning surface gravity, and so if you gave the atmosphere, if you gave the moon an artificial atmosphere, in a couple thousand years between us and the time of Christ, it would leak away.
	Okay, so why didn't they give it artificial gravity as well?
	Because maybe on a scale like that, you can't.
	Maybe you can do it in pockets in local regions and that's where the domes are.
	In other words, there's so much about this that we don't know because we don't have the physics.
	Because the physics we're currently using, and I got a whole bunch of graphs on our site tonight about the physics that we're not going to obviously get to.
	So I guess we'll have to do that the next time.
	But I've been able to prove using actual field measurements with our torsion field technology that the kinds of physics that would be used to terraform and modify the solar system is actually measurable with current techniques and I've been using them for 10 years since the Venus transit back in 2004.
	That's what those other three diagrams are on the bottom of our image page here.
	So yeah, they could have maybe terraformed the Moon, but we don't know whether there are limitations to where it's easier and more efficient and has a much longer life To do it in a way that it will last thousands or maybe even millions of years, in which case you build yourself artificial environments.
	And what's the biggest thing about the moon that makes it a cool, cool place to hang out?
	A view of the Earth.
	And if you want a view of the Earth, you need lots and lots and lots of windows, i.e.
	a glass dome.
	Can you imagine Living in Sinus Medi and looking up every night and seeing the clouds swirling and the planet twirling around, and it's four times the size of a full moon, and it goes through phases, and you get eclipses and rainbows and stunning visual drama.
	Gotcha.
	Yeah, it'd be gorgeous.
	Absolutely gorgeous.
	Okay, Richard, we're going to pause here, and this one's for you.
	All the way.
	And number nine, Definitely for number nine.
	In the nighttime, you're listening to Dark Matter.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Extraterrestrial Radio.
	White bird in a golden cage On a winter's day, in the rain White bird in a golden cage Alone
	White bird in a golden cage Alone Don't you feel it growing day by day People getting ready
	for the moon Some are happy, some are sad Oh, I'm letting music play
	What the people need is a way to make them smile It ain't so hard to do it with your mouth
	You gotta get a message, get it all through Oh, now mama's gonna sing a happy one
	Oh, I'm letting music play From the area of 51, this is Dark Matter with Art Bell.
	To join the show, please call 1-855-REAL-UFO.
	That's 1-855-732-5836.
	And it's pretty darn close to the area of 51, by the way.
	Just over the hill.
	I am Art Bell.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
	And here comes a caller on Dark Matter.
	You're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hey Art, I'm a long-time listener, first-time caller, so a Roswell to you.
	Thank you!
	So I'm looking on the Art Bell, you're on your website, and I see these graphs for the torsion field measurements.
	I kind of wanted to ask Richard what they are, and if he has any theories as to what could have made the spikes.
	Richard?
	That's going to be a little hard since we didn't really get in any of the background.
	How about a short and sweet?
	I mean, torsion field measurements.
	What are we talking about, Richard?
	Okay, torsion field is the ether.
	Remember how Einstein claims to have gotten rid of the ether back in the latter part of the 19th century with the theories of relativity?
	Yes.
	And the first part of the 20th century?
	Well, he didn't.
	And a lot of Experimentation has proven there is an ether.
	Obviously, in two minutes, I don't have time to go through the experiments, but the Russians, the British, the Australians, there's a huge cadre of physicists who have been publishing for years experiments proving there is an ether.
	There is a medium, a matrix, a plenum between everything, out of which matter and light and energy that we understand derives from.
	What I did, based on the geometry and the physics models that seem to be laid out on the ground at Cydonia, in those recurring specific geometric numbers and geometries, is I created a technology which can actually measure the changes in the torsion field, in the ether, here on Earth.
	And it's portable, it's digitized, it's built around the inertial properties of a tuning fork in an Accutron-Bulova commercial watch, which was a huge rage back in the 60s when Bulova first brought it out.
	And NASA zapped it into everything they could think of.
	Spacecraft, astronauts, you know, control systems.
	And then they quietly took them all out.
	And why did they do that?
	Because they're responding to changes in the torsion field, and they're lousy Under certain circumstances at keeping time.
	Because they don't keep time.
	They change the frequency depending upon what the field is doing.
	So what we've done over the last 10 years, since 2004, is we've taken this instrumentation and gone to various places to measure astronomical events.
	Alignments like the transit of Venus across the surface of the Sun in 2004 and then again in 2012.
	And eclipses, like the one in May of last year in 2012, and the one that occurred in Hawaii, I'm sorry, a few months ago.
	Okay.
	We've also taken it to various archaeological sites built by Mayans, built by Native Americans, built by... we haven't been to Egypt yet, that's one of the places I'm going to go, you know, current problems there notwithstanding.
	And what we've discovered is that the ancient cultures, when they were building These man-made mountains, pyramids, actually we're building a solid-state amplifier of the background torsion field that allows me to measure changes both in the field and the really amazing part that we measured at Chichen Itza before the solstice last year, you can actually measure in that field the changing impressions of consciousness
	on the readings of the field.
	All right, we're into another show with that.
	Totally, totally, totally.
	And it's so cool.
	And I've got data and three snapshots of it are up on your site tonight.
	Okay.
	You're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, I wanted to ask Richard, you know, with it, I'm kind of a skeptic.
	With it being space junk, and then I don't know why they would use just glass on the moon, that's kind of crazy to me.
	What really got me was the lack of feelings from the astronauts, that they just forgot, you know, their life's work.
	Where could I find more information about that?
	Listen, I did a show with Edgar Mitchell.
	You know a long form just like this talk show, and I actually got to the point where I asked him Please for the sake of my audience close your eyes and tell me what it felt like and you know all your all the senses that you can recall what it felt like to be on the moon and There was a big long pause and he said you know aren't I really can't remember.
	And, you know, that just floored me.
	It literally almost put me on the floor.
	I couldn't believe it, because if you had been one of the first men to ever walk on the moon, I don't think you'd forget what you'd done, would you?
	I played one in the World Series, Super Bowl.
	I don't know how you want to put it, but I mean, that's above and beyond all that.
	I mean, that's just amazing.
	So, yeah, how could you forget that?
	Well, it can't really compare, but I'll tell you, when I was tapped on the shoulder to do all that work with Cronkite when I was 23, and they flew me around, and I got to stand at the Cape, and I got to, you know, be at the foot of that huge 360-foot-tall glistening monument.
	To human genius and ingenuity.
	And I got to watch launch after launch, and I got to go out on boats on the night side and take pictures, and got to pal around.
	I mean, it's something that I will carry to my grave.
	It's like it happened yesterday, and I can remember all the awe and inspiration and the excitement.
	It's something you cannot eliminate from your consciousness if it hasn't been said to you as a tape.
	I have to agree that, you know, I don't know whether the minds were affected in some way or what happened, but it's odd beyond my ability to even try and explain it without getting to where you were going.
	Go ahead.
	You know, for that caller, if he wants to do the Google, is your friend, Google Ed Mitchell's seminal work on this problem called The Way of the Explorer.
	The Way of the Explorer.
	I don't remember which page, but he actually describes in print art, in his own words, in his own copy written book, the problem of finding out why he couldn't remember the emotions and connect with them and how it first hit him and how disturbing it was and how he got bothered more and more and more and what he tried to do about it and solve it and figure it out.
	So it's not just you and me anecdotally telling a tale.
	He's put it in print himself because he's probably the most heroic and courageous of the guys to admit up front something the others have gone through and they haven't wanted to admit it in public.
	There are very few things that stop me cold, and that was one of them.
	To hear that, it's like I had no idea what to say next.
	It's incontrovertible that something weird is going on.
	The question is, what?
	It ain't nothing.
	Dark Matter, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland, hi.
	Hi, is this me on the air?
	It is you.
	Extinguish your radio, please.
	Okay, turn the radio off.
	Yes, Roswell, it's good to hear you back.
	I'd like to ask a question on the photograph on the moon that shows what looks like a space helmet.
	Is that on the NASA files that can be downloaded now from the guy?
	Oh, okay.
	He's talking about what we call either Data's Head or C-3PO?
	Yes.
	I've seen it.
	What do you think?
	Okay, what I'm wondering is that, if it can still be downloaded, is that still on the NASA data bag?
	Oh yeah, yeah.
	They took probably two dozen images, and I've got them all.
	I was able to get... No, he's asking, can he download it directly from NASA?
	Can I download it now?
	I'm getting to that, alright?
	Okay.
	When I last looked, remember, I don't do this checking every day.
	Right.
	Those images are in high resolution on the official NASA website, but you have to have the frame numbers.
	So, in Dark Mission, I published the frame numbers, you then put them in Google, you get the highest resolution version you can from the NASA headquarters website of Shorty Crater.
	That was the crater in which it was lying.
	And if they didn't scoop it up and bring it home, it's still there for some future mission.
	And it is... Richard, you don't have the frame number, do you?
	Not handy.
	I could, if we have a break, I can go look.
	We'll have one more break.
	I don't know if that's... Okay, well, that's okay.
	I appreciate that information.
	And It's one thing, sure, that it's not artificial, whatever it is.
	You mean it is artificial?
	No, I mean it is artificial.
	It's not natural.
	Well, the thing, sir, you want to look for is look at the eyes.
	Yeah.
	And their irises, like camera lenses.
	Well, as long as they don't come along now and say that somebody put that in there as a joke, if they did, that would destroy the validity of every other picture they publish because then they would never know whether they were legitimate or not.
	And there's about a dozen different pictures overlapping of the same objects in the bottom of that crater.
	Well, thank you very much, Richard.
	I enjoyed talking to you, and we'll talk to you again.
	Okay.
	Take care.
	I'm going to try looking for the frame number while we're talking.
	Okay, well, that's a little difficult.
	I don't want to disturb your concentration, Richard, because we have callers waiting for you.
	You're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland on Dark Matter High.
	Hello?
	Hi.
	Is this me on there?
	It is you.
	It is you, yes.
	Look in the mirror.
	Okay.
	First of all, Art, I'd like to say Roswells.
	Thank you.
	You've started something, my friend.
	Yes, and I wanted to say Roswells quite dramatically in such a way, because it is quite a dramatic thing to have him back.
	Picture 9.
	It's quite interesting.
	Good, I'm glad you said that.
	Please, your impressions of number 9.
	Number 9, it kind of looks like a wheel with a pipe sticking out of it.
	You got it.
	If you tilt your head to the right, and you think of it as an 18-wheeler axle without a tire on it, with a pipe sticking out of it, it's the symmetry.
	Cylindrical flanged symmetry, which is the giveaway.
	Now we don't know what it is.
	I think it looks like a gun turret or something.
	That's also possible.
	Remember, we don't know what these things are, we just know it's not a rock.
	I really think the only thing you can say about it, you can imagine it to be many things, one thing it ain't, is natural.
	Again, what you said by saying it's not natural, it's artificial.
	And that means everything I've been saying for 20 years is true.
	That's what I've said, and this caller agrees, right?
	Yes, and when I lay back and look at the picture, it looks like the colors, kind of like the rocks, take on a different perspective of colors coming out.
	Well, there's plenty of rocks to look at right there.
	It's not a rock.
	And there's also some things in the foreground and the background that are not rocks.
	Well, that's what I'm saying.
	It's like when you change the angle, it glares back at a different kind of color.
	Because I can look at this thing from any angle.
	I can put my head upside down.
	It's still not natural.
	Nope.
	No.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Thank you very much, Caller.
	Okay, I've got the frame number for Data's Head.
	Okay, I've got a caller on the line.
	So caller, hold on one second.
	The frame number, please.
	AS17-137-21001HR.
	HR stands for High Res.
	Type it into Google.
	Wait a minute.
	H-R stands for high-res. Type it into Google. Find the server you want.
	Wait a minute. Let me check the number with you. AS-177-5-6.
	Yep.
	HR.
	Capital HR.
	Okay.
	And that will take you to Shorty Crater, one of the images, and in the bottom is Data's Head.
	All right.
	Caller, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Yay!
	It's my two favorite people.
	My name is Marge.
	As a youth, I carried that around forever.
	It's my favorite thing in the world.
	You'll be down here by now.
	Yeah, it was pretty rowdy by the time I was finished with it.
	You know, I like the Roswell thing, Art, but there's one other greeting that could be a little more functional that I'd like to suggest if Roswell's gets old, and that's, turn off your radio.
	It's my favorite thing you say, it's constant, and we could turn it into a greeting rather than a roadblock.
	Anyway.
	Well, Roswell's pretty good.
	Yeah, it is pretty good.
	But my question for Richard was, the first A plethora of probes they sent to Mars.
	I guess they didn't sterilize them?
	The Russians didn't.
	Hang on.
	The Russians didn't.
	We did.
	What kind of problems does that cause in the long run?
	I mean, unless they find a biped or a motorcycle, I mean, they're probably going to go with that, ooh, we found fossilized microbial life.
	But is that going to be even remotely valid since we've already littered the surface with bacteria?
	Well, if we find that any microbes we do ultimately find someday, or bigger life, has our DNA, then the ambiguity will be up there.
	We won't know, did we, you know, seed Mars at some early stage in our own space program.
	If the DNA is different, if, as Art said, what, a couple hours ago, think about the junk DNA, if that's expressed in different ways, then we'll be pretty sure that it's an indigenous Martian guy.
	Now, of course, in the last week or two, or maybe a month, there have been a couple of papers claiming that Earth life came from Mars, which I think is more gentle, soft disclosure.
	Yeah, I've heard that.
	A little Martian in all of us.
	You got it!
	I think it's code for the big stuff, which they're trying to quietly prepare for a, mixing our metaphors madly, soft landing.
	Thank you very much.
	Soft landing.
	That's a really, really, really an interesting phrase, Richard.
	I was trying to get an answer from Dr. Greer about soft landing.
	How do you envision a soft landing could be implemented?
	Well, I think what we need to do is to introduce the idea of torsion field physics, i.e.
	unlimited pollutionless energy.
	Into the culture in a non-threatening form.
	Just like going out and finding ruins on another planet shouldn't be that threatening, because there's nobody there with ray guns and they're not going to come and eat your face off and whatever.
	It's just archaeology.
	It's just stuff left by somebody.
	The soft landing way of introducing the stunning technologies and engineering and scientific breakthroughs would be, I think, with a commercial toy.
	That runs and runs and runs and runs.
	And I found literally a few hours ago in one of my favorite magazines, which is Infinite Energy, which used to be edited by my late dear friend Gene Maloff before he was viciously murdered in Washington for discussing this stuff at a level where people would take it seriously.
	I found an example of exactly that kind of Infinite energy, torsion field fuel, electrical device, this old torsion pendulum, which has been running in a Bucharest, Hungary museum for the last several years with no power source.
	Wow.
	And I've got to go look, I've got to call the guy up, I've got to connect him with Paul, and maybe you'll talk to him, he writes really good English, but he has photographs in the magazine this month's issue of this device that was built in the 40s, and it's been running in this museum since the 1940s.
	Alright, another show.
	You're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland, Dark Matter.
	Hi.
	Hi Art, hey, it's great to have you back on the air, man.
	Hey, I'm just a little bit skeptical, Richard.
	I don't doubt that, you know, when millions of years ago, maybe, that Mars had atmosphere and possibly even advanced life.
	Well, when I think about just the simple things here in archaeology and on Earth, and how things deteriorate over the years and things like that, that any kind of Martian man-made object could have survived since its atmosphere has deteriorated all over.
	Oh, that's an exquisite question.
	So let me give you, hopefully, an exquisite answer.
	Okay.
	The current Curiosity mission has a very complicated gadget inside called the SAM instrument.
	Which stands for Sampling Atmosphere on Mars.
	They have been running atmospheric tests.
	In fact, the story came out today, no methane, no methane, which I find very suspicious since there's been Earth-based astronomers who found copious methane like mama out of Goddard a few years ago.
	Anyway, what they've been running is a profile of all the constituents in the current atmosphere, which include things like CO2, nitrogen, oxygen, Carbon monoxide.
	The oxygen is, like, down at the .01 level or something.
	It's really, really a tiny, tiny percentage.
	If you bury metallic things, like made of steel or iron or aluminum or whatever, magnesium, under sand, under dust on Mars, it is basically the same as having the stuff on the floor of the Atlantic From the Titanic, which did not corrode in almost a hundred years, because there's no oxygen two miles down under the North Atlantic because of the pressure.
	And there's no oxygen on Mars, even a few inches under those sands and dust.
	So without oxygen, you don't have corrosion and rust.
	If it's protected under dust, it's like the Sphinx, which spends most of its life buried up to its neck in sand.
	You don't get windblown abrasion and erosion.
	Sandstorm problems of basically cutting away material.
	So you could have on Mars stuff, artifacts, that would be in almost pristine condition even after millions of years because with an atmosphere that's mostly CO2, if you know anything about basic chemistry or fluid physics, if you have an atmosphere with heavy molecules and then you put light molecules in amongst the heavy ones, The light stuff floats on top, which means the heavy atmosphere of Mars, CO2, forces the oxygen to rise so it doesn't even touch the ground.
	It's tens of thousands of feet higher than the surface of Mars for most of Mars' current history, meaning stuff will be preserved almost in pristine condition.
	All right.
	All right, Richard.
	Sit tight.
	We've got a short break ahead.
	You're listening to Dark Matter, and I must say, number nine, number nine, number nine,
	if you see any photograph on my website, artbell.com, this picture, number nine, my goodness,
	it's just about got me.
	♪♪♪ ♪♪♪
	♪♪♪ ♪♪♪
	♪♪♪ From the area of 51, this is Dark Matter with Art Bell.
	To join the show, please call 1-855-REAL-UFO.
	That's 1-855-732-5836.
	I'll tell you something, if Jodie Foster's wormhole had collapsed as many times as mine has tonight, she'd be dead as a doornail and never would have made it.
	Thank you all for the messages, but we're sort of overdoing it.
	We're going to have to figure out a way to prop up Google or something.
	I don't know.
	It's crazy.
	Anyway, Richard C. Hoagland is my guest, and there's not a lot of time left.
	So let's go here and say, Dark Matter, you're on.
	Hey, Art.
	Richard, yes.
	I'm looking at our page of people looking up the images.
	Yes.
	We have 17,923 views so far.
	Oh, my.
	Hold on, we've got a caller, Richard, and then you.
	Caller, go.
	Thanks, Art, very much.
	Richard, it's a pleasure.
	In addition to wondering, as I know Art must be, if we're ever going to find out actually where cats come from, my question for you, Richard, this is, I was listening to the Stephen Greer interview the other night, and this has been buggin' me, and you're the perfect guy to run it by.
	Thinking back to the comment she had briefly earlier about the Book of Genesis, what if, this is just my hypothesis, what if the information manipulators, can't call them truth manipulators because the truth can't be manipulated, but the information manipulators, what if what they are afraid of is that the public finds out what they already know, which might be or is that the Bible, our understanding of religion, is That's a very interesting perspective.
	in the face of religion, but our understanding of religion is actually true, and maybe that
	It is.
	there's a judgment coming.
	I mean, Jesus, everybody pretty much accepts that Jesus said, you're going to do great
	things like I did, and you're going to do even bigger things than I did.
	I'm just wondering.
	That's a very interesting perspective.
	It is.
	Yeah, that would shatter people.
	You know, when I had a cat that was so sick, Richard, I took it to the vet, and the vet
	was doing things over—it took two or three months to heal this cat.
	And her comment to me was that cats have a biology.
	physiology that is so different than anything else on the planet that they might as well be from another world.
	And I'll leave it at that.
	You wanted to say something?
	We're getting short on time.
	Let me say two things.
	One is, do you know that cats are the closest non-primate relatives genetically to humans?
	No, I actually did not know that.
	It's Google.
	Use your friend.
	It's part of the data I'm going to put in Dark Mission because I discovered back almost 20 years ago that the right-hand side of the face is a feline image, a lion-esque image, married to the left-hand side, which is a hominid, anthropoid image, which always said to me when I figured that out that this was some meta-message about genetic engineering on a mega-scale.
	Well, perhaps so.
	We have very little time left in the show.
	We have a little bit, but here, take it, Richard, and say whatever else you would like to say.
	Well, obviously even in four hours, and it's been delightful to have four hours with basically no interruptions to really, you know, go at this.
	And I love the fact that you don't roll over like a, you know, a limp noodle.
	No, I'm serious.
	No, I know.
	It's got to be said because people will say things like Robin did.
	It sounds like you're fighting.
	No, we're not fighting, folks.
	Given the stakes, which is nothing less than the future destiny of the human race, it's important to subject this material to peer review.
	Now, who are my peers, Art?
	You're one of them.
	Thank you.
	You know, the concept of peer review is people who have enough background To understand anomalies when they see them, and not just go to sleep or, you know, play the party line.
	The fact that you see Number 9 for what it is, and you're going to see a lot more when you go to Enterprise Mission and read Part 1 and Part 2 of It Only Takes One White Crow, because I think the real mission of Curiosity is to prepare us by dumping hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of things like Number 9 And it's just, you know, we don't have the staff to go through and clean them up and make sure that the colors are balanced and that the contrast is good, because they're covered by all this icky, icky yellowish dust, which makes it impossible to see anything.
	And that's what they want.
	They want to delay the inevitable as long as possible while they figure out.
	And I think what ultimately is the political agenda here is that when ultimately someone says, yes, there was stuff on Mars, NASA can point back to the Curiosity mission and say, well, we published it all along just like we said we would, not hiding anything.
	If you're too damn dumb to notice it, it's not our fault.
	It's called plausible deniability.
	It's an old game in Washington.
	I wonder if that's what ultimately they will say.
	Well, we had it up there.
	You could have seen it any old time.
	I'll make you a bet.
	Well, you're not doing a show here, buddy.
	It's been a blast, Richard, and you know we'll do it again.
	So, you have a great night and what a great discussion.
	Thank you, Art.
	Good night.
	And good night to you all.
	It has been a pleasure.
	It's been a great first week.
	Thanks to all of you, and we're leaving the lines full and blazing.
	So, from the high desert and the great American Southwest, I'm Art Bell.
	Good night.
	I'm gonna shine on you.
	Midnight in the desert.
	And we're listening.
	We're listening to you.
	Midnight in the desert.
	And there's wisdom in the air.
	I've been looking for the answers, all my life I've felt you there.
	As the world we live in quickens Are we heeding all the signs?
	Have we lost our intuition?
	Are we running out of time?
	Midnight in the desert And we're listening Ooh, we're listening And we're listening

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