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Feb. 18, 2007 - Art Bell

02:36:34

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - China's Tactics - Ralph Sawyer - James Gilliland - UFO Intention Experiment

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01:01:04

ralph sawyer

57:44

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james gilliland

02:05

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, as the case may be across the cosmos, known and otherwise.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM, covering every single one of those time zones like a blanket.
		And last night, a lot of you will have missed it, but my guest, James Gilliland, was talking about UFOs.
		That's his subject.
		And, you know, he kept talking about the intent and how he goes into his area, goes into, he's already there, and he produces UFOs virtually on demand with intent.
		Now, that's really, really interesting because, as you know, I've done a number of experiments in the past that involve intent and weather and people's health and all kinds of things.
		Well, I finally broke down in the last hour and I said, all right, what the hell?
		Let's give it a try.
		Let's all concentrate on producing UFOs in our skies worldwide, all across the country, all across the world.
		No particular location involved.
		Well, I can tell you this, I've received upwards of 2,000 emails, so many that my email program kind of went wacko, of people who saw things.
		So we're going to do a repeat performance tonight.
		And then we're going to look at this, you know, the next several days.
		But I thought it'd be worthwhile at the beginning of the program, right here up front, to bring James Gilland online right now, actually.
		Hello, James.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you back.
		Surprised to have you back, actually.
		But these experiments have always surprised me.
		We did it in, what, I think, the last hour of the program, something like that.
		Now, I'd like to know what your response was like.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, we never actually gave my email or my website out on the air, and I got just slammed with emails anyway, regardless of that.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		And what happened with me is, I mean, I got emails of seeing multiple ships to just amazing encounters everywhere from there's two crafts in Berkeley, Seattle, there was about three or four sightings in Seattle, Hawaii, Houston, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vancouver, yeah, I got Houston.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Vancouver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All over the place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I just got slammed, absolutely slammed.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, New York and Iowa, too.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		It just goes on and on and on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		So once again, I'm not sure what we've done.
		You've got to allow for the fact that we sent people out, if they were able, to look at the skies, even in five-degree weather in some cases.
		But they saw UFOs by the gazillions.
		Now, something worked.
		Something happened.
		And I'm sure, I guess it's not a surprise to you, right?
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		No, it wasn't, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's try it.
		We're going to try it again tonight in the next couple of breaks.
		You know, bottom of the hour, top of the hour.
		And this time, let's give out your email.
		All right.
		Okay.
		What is your email, James?
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's actually ufojames at gorge.net.
		It's g-o-r-g-e.net.
		Or they can go to the website, which is eSETI.org.
		It's www.ece.org.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let me get this straight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		UFOJAMS at gorge, G-O-R-G-E dot net, right?
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Well, I'm going to depend this time on you to sort of categorize where the reports come from and virtually how many we get.
		So I'm going to be repeating your email address, but I must say I was amazed.
		Now, there are two possibilities.
		One, they're always there, or they're there a lot, and people just see them when they go outside and look.
		The other is that we really did cause something to occur.
		And I have no way.
		It's a mighty big coincidence if that occurred.
		And that's why I'm wanting to try it again tonight.
		And since we did it in the last hour of the program, I thought perhaps the first hour where we have gobs of people might produce even larger results.
		And they may not come right away.
		They may come right away or they may come in the next few days.
		But we're going to watch carefully.
		So I want to thank you, A, for a wonderful show, and B, sort of subconsciously talking me into doing it.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I want to thank you, R, for having the courage to do it.
		It's amazing.
		This is kind of a dream come true for me, and it's actually manifesting right here and now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		James, I guess what it does, number one, is underscores your theory of intent.
		And number two, and that's, I guess, why I caved in and did it, is because it also underscores my continuing now experiments with consciousness.
		So I will bid you a good evening.
		Prepare your email.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		You know, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		There's one thing I wanted to mention.
		You've had a lot of people talk about the field.
		And, you know, within the field, there's all these planes and dimensions existing right alongside of art.
		And, you know, they're just sitting there in that field waiting to drop in, waiting for us to open to that reality and put the intent out for them to step in.
		So the skies are full of ships right now.
		And all we have to do is initiate and kind of open the doorway for that to happen.
		And that's what we did on the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get ready, brother.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and I've got a lot of elders, like Lakota elders and people of that nature that I've been working with.
		And this has all been prophesied.
		They know this is coming down.
		Wallace, you know, Black Elk and a lot of other ones have all given prophecies about these times and that this is going to be happening for these times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Prepare yourself and we'll see what happens.
		Thank you.
unidentified		Great.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, James.
		James Gilliland, and we've got a couple of experiments coming up in a few moments.
		Stay right where you are.
		Well, all right.
		Skimming through the world news, militants struck back Sunday in their first major blow against U.S.-led security clampdown in Baghdad with car bombings.
		Listen to this, that killed at least 63 people, left scores injured, sent a grim message, indeed, to officials boasting that extremist factions were on the run.
		Not exactly.
		64 die on India train militants blamed a fire that raked through a train traveling from India to Pakistan early Monday morning, killed at least 64 people, and India's top railway officials say it was an attack by militants trying to harm India-Pakistan relations, or should I say, worsen them.
		Hoping to turn the page on six years of stalled Mideast negotiations, the U.S. instituted found itself boxed in Sunday by a characteristically complex political impasse involving the Israelis and Palestinian Secretary of State Kanalis Hawaii came to the region intending to lead a symbolic peace summit.
		Her plans, however, have been eclipsed amid uncertainty and disagreement over how to handle last week's sudden announcement of a power sharing deal to end internal Palestinian fighting.
		Democrats seek to impose limits on the Iraq war.
		Senate Democrats pledged renewed efforts on day to curtail the Iraq war, suggesting they'll seek to limit a 2002 measure authorizing President Bush's use of force against Saddam Hussein.
		The top Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee said the proposal had little chance of succeeding.
		All right, looking at some other news, the following is from the BBC, of course, and it's about dead zones.
		The delicate interplay between the oceans and the atmosphere is changing with catastrophic consequences.
		Entire marine ecosystems have been wiped out, devastating populations of seabirds and larger marine mammals.
		These dead zones occur where there are disturbances to the nutrient-rich ocean currents, which are driven by coastal winds.
		Extreme marine suffocations have occurred off the west coast of the U.S. every year for the last five years.
		The most intense event, which left the ocean floor littered with the carcasses of crabs, occurred in 2006.
		It was unlike anything we've ever measured along the Oregon coast in the past five years, according to Dr. Francis Chan of the Oregon State University.
		Other coastal countries, including Chile, Namibia, and South Africa, also affected.
		The common factor between all the areas is the marine currents off the coast that rise from the deep ocean.
		These upswelling zones being nutrient-rich water up from the deep, triggering plankton blooms that underpin the coastal food chain.
		Nearly 50% of the world's fisheries are in these areas.
		The currents are driven by winds that move surface water away from the coast, drawing more up from the deep.
		But now, observations along the west coast of the U.S. suggest the upswelling is being disrupted, changing its timing and intensity, for example.
		In 2005, the upswelling was delayed.
		Now, that means the plankton blooms did not occur, leading to a collapse in fish population.
		This particularly hit migrating salmon, which pass along the coast in April and May of every year.
		In 2005, they found nothing to eat, said Dr. Bill Peterson of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, NOAA.
		By the time upswelling did begin, they were all dead.
		An even more catastrophic event, this is hard to read, occurred in 2008 when the amount of upswelling doubled, leading to a huge influx of nutrients and a supercharged plankton bloom.
		Sounds good, right?
		Wrong.
		When these sank to the ocean floor, they stripped the water column of all oxygen, creating a 3,000 square kilometer dead zone where creatures unable to swim away suffocated en mass.
		Dr. Francis Chan used underwater cameras to survey the area two months after the event.
		We were shocked to see a graveyard, he said.
		Frame after frame of carcass, carcass, carcass.
		Crabs, worms, sea stars all perished in the water.
		The event was so severe that the researchers fear marine life will not ever return to the area.
		Quote, in previous years, fish that have escaped the low oxygen area appear to have returned once the oxygen was renewed.
		This year may be different, however, because unlike earlier years, the living habitat also was suffocated.
		The researchers believe the cause of these events was changes in the intensity of the coastal winds, perhaps brought about by global warming.
		What we know about the climate change models is that the land will warm more than the sea.
		It is this difference in temperature and pressure that drives the winds.
		As you intensify that gradient, that will drive the stronger winds.
		To confirm this link to climate change, the researchers say they need another 10 to 15 years of data.
		In the meantime, they say We must change our approach to managing and using these ecosystems, particularly for fish stocks.
		The most prudent course of action is to begin to think differently about what's happening.
		Climate models predict uncertainty with wild fluctuations.
		We should expect more surprises.
		All right, in a moment, we're going to go to open lines, unscreened open lines.
		Let me give you the appropriate numbers.
		If you're west of the Rockies, out here in the West, 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, Big Jungle Land, 1-800-825-5033.
		First time callers, Area Code 818-501-4721.
		Wildcard line, folks, area code 818-501-4109.
		And finally, if you're outside the country, yes, we can help you.
		Get hold of the operator and have her call 800-893-0903.
		For decades, space experts have worried that a speeding bit of orbital debris might one day smash a large spacecraft into hundreds of pieces and begin a chain reaction, a kind of slow cascade of collisions that would expand then for centuries, spreading chaos through the heavens.
		Do you see what they're talking about?
		A little piece of something could hit a big enough spacecraft that would break into hundreds of pieces and begin hitting other spacecraft, a kind of domino reaction in space.
		In the last decade or so, as scientists came to agree that the number of objects in orbit had surpassed a critical mass, or in their terms, the critical spatial density, the point at which a chain reaction becomes inevitable, they grew more anxious.
		Early this year, after a half century of growth, the federal list of detectable objects four inches wide or larger reached 10,000, including dead satellites, spent rocket engines, a camera, a hand tool, junkyards of whirling debris left over from chance explosions and destructive tests.
	Now, say experts, China's test on January 11th of an anti-satellite rocket that shattered an old satellite into hundreds of large pieces means the chain reaction will most likely start sooner if their predictions are correct.
	The cascade could put billions of dollars worth of advanced satellites at risk and eventually threaten to limit humanity's reach for the stars altogether.
	Now, I had never, ever given that a thought.
	I, and I'm sure many of you, always, well, sort of considered the possibility of something getting hit by a stray this or that.
	But I really never considered the possibility of a kind of a chain reaction, and there certainly could be.
	One little object hitting a big spacecraft would cause hundreds of objects to suddenly be there and spread out, hitting other big spacecraft.
	And you get the idea.
	Well, the experiment last night looks as though it was a success.
	It was amazing.
	I had thousands of emails.
	Now, I also had many like this since it was the last night, of course, of the last hour of the program.
	Shirley wrote, Art, I'm sorry to say I missed last night's show.
	Please, please, please do the same intent experiment again tonight, maybe in the first hour.
	I really hope the response is incredible and unmistakable.
	Looking forward to hearing about it tonight.
	Okay, Shirley.
	Here's, I'm going to kind of roll over the way we did it in the last hour or so last night.
	James Gilluland and many others, including myself, believe that consciousness is a very, very strong power.
	We believe that intent and certainly the intent of millions of minds thinking of the same thing at the same time has an effect.
	James thinks they are there.
	They are but awaiting an invitation.
	So we are going to provide an invitation.
	What we're going to do is sort of during this coming break, it's coming pretty quickly here, we're going to settle our minds.
	We're going to quiet our minds.
	Just kind of let your mind go to a nice, quiet place.
	And in fact, what really works is to find one of the most joyous moments you ever had in your life.
	It could be the birth of your child.
	It could be a marriage.
	It could be.
	In my case, I actually reached out and considered that brief little out-of-body experience I once had in Paris and the incredible joy that I felt.
	And while I did not re-experience the joy, I kind of brushed up against it a little bit.
	And I felt a little bit of that joy.
	Now, it'll be different for all of you, but the point of the exercise is to quiet your mind and then think of something very joyful so you're in a very good mood.
	And then what I would like you to do is to either turn down or better yet, just turn off your radio as the break comes on.
	And sit there and as hard as you can manage to do, after you've quieted your mind, found this little joyful place, whatever it is, project intent.
	And the intent I want you to project is that of whoever they are, hopefully our friends.
	They will show themselves in our skies.
	Now, if you wish to go outside, and it's not 100 degrees below zero out there, and you've got a nice little porch you can go stand on or in your yard, stand In your, whatever, just go outside and kind of look at the skies.
	And it would appear as though millions of us working together are actually able to produce results.
	So, would you be willing to do that for me?
	For all of us, if we all concentrate together, if we really project the intent for these beings, whoever they are, to show themselves with their craft in our skies, then I would suggest to you it definitely is worth a walk outside and a scan of your skies.
	There are, well, it's probably been years now since I've done one of these experiments.
	So it was just irresistible.
	Intent, millions of you, and I finally broke down.
	Well, tonight, part two, beginning right now.
	Turn your radio down or off, and let's go to it right now.
	We'll be right back.
	Well, I know not what we have done, whether we've done anything at all.
	I know yesterday we certainly produced results.
	Thousands of emails, thousands of sightings.
	We'll see what happens tonight.
	We'll see what happens over the next several days.
	I don't know how this works.
	I don't know very much about it at all.
	And we've discussed that many times in the past.
	But I did break down and we gave it a try.
	Listen, coming up in just a moment, all of you unscreened open lines directly ahead.
	Top of the hour, Ralph Sawyer, and we're going to talk about China, past and present.
	Right now, though, it's all of you.
	First time caller line, you are on the air.
	Hello.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		In the tape that was released by Al-Qaeda number two a few days ago, he asked all the mujahideen in the world to pledge their allegiance to Mullah Omar without ever mentioning bin Laden.
unidentified		I'm wondering, is bin Laden dead?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a good question, isn't it?
		He could be, and they would never tell us.
		If I was them, if I were them, if he had died or been killed by one of our bombs, I would bury him quietly somewhere in the desert and forevermore, nothing would be known.
		We would always imagine and fear he was still alive.
		Wouldn't you do that?
unidentified		Yeah, I was actually thinking that if he did die, that would be when they would set it off.
unidentified		See American Hiroshima or some other plan that they have in the operational stage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, maybe.
		I don't know that his death would bring that on.
		I don't even know if they really have a weapon.
		So we can speculate about that.
		But in terms of what to do if he died or was killed by one of our bombs, yeah, bury him and don't say a word.
		And I suppose years would go by before serious speculation began.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going once.
		Going twice.
		I hear the radio in the background.
		Going three times.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Bob from Flanlike.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey.
unidentified		You know, the guest you had last night, we're doing the same thing up here in the Kettle Marine.
		That's about 50 miles north of Milwaukee.
		We have a convention out there every year for the last 16th year.
		It's the second Saturday in July.
		They come in every year.
		We've got videos and everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Videos?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Videos of objects?
unidentified		Pardon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Videos of craft?
unidentified		Videos of UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I meant.
unidentified		Pardon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I meant.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yeah, we have them.
		And they were played over at Milwaukee Radio TV station last night, or a couple nights ago.
		And they come in six at a time sometimes.
		They do aerobatic feats and everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it really does appear as though this whole thing works.
		This whole intent thing really does work.
		I don't know how, but it works.
		And I wouldn't be surprised if tonight, well, we've already had it.
		Yesterday we just had a landslide after we tried it.
		But tonight and over the next several days, I would expect major sightings.
		I would hope for them.
		And I would hope also that they would be peaceful.
		Guest, no, actually, it's a wildcard line.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going once, going twice, gone.
		Wildcard line four, you're on the air.
		Would have been.
		Wildcard line three, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hello.
		Yes.
		This is Art Bill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off.
unidentified		Okay, the radio's off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's mandatory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First thing you do when you get on the air is turn it off.
unidentified		Yeah, okay.
		Well, I just visited by some UFOs and kind of wondering which way to go with them, you know?
		Meaning what?
		Yeah, they really got kind of an attitude towards me now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They have an attitude toward you?
unidentified		Yeah.
		They came here looking to to perform a marriage between you and one of them.
		Yeah.
		And so I didn't I did not go through with it and everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How close did you get?
unidentified		Oh, they actually took me up to some spaceship with them.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And courted you.
unidentified		Yeah, well.
		He doesn't let me know he was just pleased with this.
		She's there.
		And, you know, it was two of them in some kind of spaceship.
		And everything.
		But they had many contacts with me, you know, lots of contacts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you were completely sober through this entire experience.
unidentified		Yeah, completely sober and everything.
unidentified		And, you know, maybe you should have gone through with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you should have married her.
		Now, maybe it's a stretch to call it a her, and maybe that's why you decided not to consummate.
		I have no idea.
		Wildcard line.
		Let's see.
		Wildcard line one, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, Art, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing all right.
unidentified		I can't believe I got through.
		That is crazy.
		Hey, I was going to ask you about this Cassini project that's going on around Saturn right now.
		I believe it's Saturn.
		And the planet or the moon Enceladus.
		Are you familiar with that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
unidentified		Encelatus, or Enceladus, I think that's how it's pronounced anyway, is leaving a jet stream of oxygen through space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oxygen?
unidentified		Oxygen.
unidentified		And they believe it's just a solid chunk of ice with maybe water in the middle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, ice is water, right?
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Something to watch out for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I guess there would be oxygen trapped in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess that's what they're seeing.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		Or, you know, something we might be able to use that as a jump spot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we might.
		That's very interesting.
		As you know, we have to find water on the moon or Mars or somewhere close by, or we're not going anywhere.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		I'll certainly look into it.
		It is very interesting, and we must.
		It is imperative that we find water somewhere.
		Water equals ultimately fuel and the ability to go onward or go anywhere at all.
		Good morning on the first time, Color Line.
		You are on the air.
unidentified		Hey, Ark.
		This is Mike on my way to Memphis.
		Hey, I was just wondering if you could recap a show for me real quick and tell me if there's any updates on the, I can't remember the guy's whole name, but it was Vince, somebody in the Clinton administration that was killed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my gosh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You really are going back.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was a great controversy that remains one.
unidentified		Hello?
unidentified		Yeah, go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That remains a controversy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have nothing new to tell you about it.
unidentified		Well, I was just wondering if you could recap it.
unidentified		It was a show that really caught my interest and got me hooked on your show about six or seven years ago, and I just kind of forgot the details of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was a question about whether it was a suicide or a murder.
		And that's about all I can recall right now.
		But there was no ultimate resolution to it.
		It remains controversial.
		So that's about as much of a recap as you're going to get from me.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, how's it going?
unidentified		This is David in Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, David.
unidentified		I've got a couple of questions, two quick ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		That tape that you played of that guy flying into Area 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You played it, I know, many times.
		This guy was on the cell phone.
		That's correct, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is correct, yes.
unidentified		And you probably heard him more times than us.
		When he went down or whatever happened to him, did you hear anything like, you know, somebody shooting at him or him going down or a crash or a bang or something?
		No, but you probably wouldn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, he was screeching about a rail gun toward the end, you may recall, and some railgun that was pointed at him and firing and all the rest of it.
		Well, if something connected with him, and he also talked about an F-16, but if something actually connected with him, as in he hit the aircraft, that would be the last you would hear.
		You wouldn't hear, you know, kind of like on TV or in the movies, where you get to hear the explosion and the aftermath and people running and all the rest of it.
		You don't get to hear that in real life.
		You just get dead air, and that's what we got.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, this is Earl from Arkansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Earl.
unidentified		How you doing?
unidentified		I had a story about shadow people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another shadow prison story, huh?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Well, I heard the show a few nights back, and I wanted to call him, but I didn't get through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		But, you know, my cousin, he had an interesting story with it.
		We were talking about it because I had seen something in the past.
		He was telling me that whenever he was actually messed up on drugs for a little bit.
		And whenever he got off of it, he was on it real bad.
		And he saw shadow people.
		And so what happened was he noticed that they started noticing him and they were coming after him.
		Or they noticed that he was noticing them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you know all this was not an artifact of the drugs he was taking?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was he doing?
unidentified		Oh, he was using methamphetamines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Methamphetamines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I'm not going to continue with that story because when you say something like that, listen, not first person.
		In other words, it wasn't you.
		It was your cousin.
		And then you prefaced it by saying he was on meth.
		So no matter how intriguing and dramatic the story might get from there, it automatically, in the minds of most, gets discredited.
		International Line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, this is Jeff from Edmonton.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jeff.
unidentified		Hi.
		Last night, I was actually in Nashville, Tennessee.
		I sent you an email.
		I'm not sure if you've got it.
		But they actually had some semi-news coverage of the object that was flying over the skies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh?
unidentified		Yeah, the meteorologist for the local ABC affiliate in Nashville, her name was Lisa Patton, Dismissed it pretty quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but she mentioned it, huh?
unidentified		She mentioned it and she got it.
		I think she got it on the Sky Camp.
		I think it's called a Sky Camp on one of the state buildings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Nashville is the capital of Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		So it was on one of the state buildings, and they have a camera.
		I think they pulled over the camera on it.
		They've gotten a lot of, she said that they had a lot of calls on it.
		And she dismissed it pretty quickly as a space station.
		But the last time I checked, the space station one doesn't spin as quickly as that did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so whatever this was was spinning?
unidentified		It was spinning, like it was rotating at a, looked like it really good angle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like pretty steep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Number one, if you see the space station, it's kind of like a star moving in a predictable course across the sky.
unidentified		And this, exactly.
		And this thing was, it was, it was hovering more than it was, it was like hovering and rotating.
		And I blinked, I had a flashlight.
		I had a very kind of high-powered Magnum flashlight.
		We were here for a convention.
		And I took it and I hit the light three times up in the sky, and it blinked back three times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I appreciate the call.
		There you go.
		That's the kind of thing that I got thousands of emails about.
		Now, coincidence, I think not.
		Our intent produced something, and I would look for it tonight as well.
		You might want to take a very careful look at your skies tonight.
		With the amount of intent flashing out there, and we're going to try it one more time here at the top of the hour.
		All we're trying to do is send a blast outward asking whoever it is to go ahead and show themselves.
		Nothing more dramatic than that.
		Just a showing.
		And if it's like last night, then I have got to begin to declare this a success.
		This is amazing.
		What intent and what mass minds can do together is absolutely amazing.
		I'm still very hesitant to explore other areas, but damn it, every time I've tried it, every time I've tried this with all of you, it has worked.
		Simple as that.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		Good talk to you again.
		This is Stacey from Cleveland.
		Yes, Stacey.
		I just wanted to ask you, what are we going to do about climate change, and why don't we get some action going?
		I don't understand why there's not more people calling in with some concrete steps or something to make something happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here you are, Stacy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What ideas do you have?
unidentified		Well, you know, it seems to me every time that we have some sort of storm come through, it knocks down the power lines.
		And, you know, then they have to go back through and restore everybody's power one by one or area by area.
		You know, it looks like the people in Congress would realize that we've got to get together and we've got to do some sort of effort to move the devices that are out there hunting pack here and there and get them moved forward with some sort of way to put distributed power in people's homes where they're generating the basic power needs right there at their own homes so that when the storms come through,
		that we don't have to worry about the power unfailing.
		And if they do fail, then people will still have power for heat and for the basic needs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm a big fan of that, buddy.
		But listen, it takes a lot to get that done.
		I've done it here, but at rather great expense, and I wouldn't expect the average person is yet able to do it.
		It means putting up solar panels, wind generators.
		It really means having batteries if you want power on demand, because, of course, the sun goes down at night and you can't always depend on the wind.
		So you have got to store whatever you produce.
		By whatever method you produce it, you've got to have some sort of storage.
		All of that costs money.
		The average person just can't do it yet.
		But that would be an obvious answer.
		And I think we're all kind of hanging in there for something to break.
		Perhaps hydrogen from water.
		Who knows?
		But something.
		I'm with you on that.
		First time caller line.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, how's it going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's going well.
unidentified		Not bad.
		Do what we can do.
		Who are you calling?
		Calling basically I got a little story that I need to get on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, basically, turn your radio off.
unidentified		Yeah, I got the radio on.
		Off?
		Oh, yeah, it's off now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		All right.
		You have a little story, and we have a little time, so go ahead.
unidentified		Okay.
		I'm calling actually from Wisconsin, Port Washington.
		Been living there for about 22 years, approximately.
		Single man.
		Lost my wife about three years ago.
		Now, the thing is, is past couple weeks, I'm on the first shift, so I'm home about 3.30.
		I decide to hop in bed around quarter to 10.
		And every once in a while, it's pretty weird because I've been hearing almost as if she's been coming around because I hear her voices.
		You know what I'm saying?
		And it's pretty wild because every once in a while, just recently, two nights ago, I'm laying in bed, I'm watching TV and everything, and it's like I feel her presence.
		And it's been scaring the shit out of me.
		You know what I'm saying?
		And I don't know.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, he was doing pretty well up until he said a word that we can't air.
		I understand, sir, exactly what you're going through.
		And when somebody has a personal loss of their mate or somebody very close to them, it's not at all strange that you would feel their presence, perhaps hear their voice, otherwise know they're still with you.
		And it is my considered and firm opinion that she is still with you.
		So I hope that's of some comfort to you, and I hope it doesn't scare you.
		I think it's quite natural.
		I'm Art Bell.
		All right.
		The intent is out there over the next several days.
		We'll see what happens.
		But already, my mind.
		Very interesting stuff, I would say indeed.
		Coming up in a moment, Ralph Sawyer is an independent historical scholar, lecturer, and consultant to both government agencies and international conglomerates.
		Now tonight for you.
		He specialized in Chinese military, technological, and intelligence issues for nearly four decades, most of which have been spent in Taiwan, Korea, Japan, China, and Southeast Asia.
		A former Fulbright Fellow, following undergraduate work at MIT, graduate study in Chinese studies at Harvard, and advanced language study at Stanford, and with local scholars throughout Asia, Sawyer has continued the traditional Chinese practice of public activity and private scholarship over the decades.
		His written works focus on Chinese military history and martial writings, while his lectures and strategic consulting emphasize the reformulation and applicability of paradigm lessons and theoretical concepts in modern contexts, including their integration into contemporary PRC doctrine.
		A fellow of the Center for Military and Strategic Studies in Calgary and a senior research fellow with the Warring States Project at the University of Massachusetts, he is a member of numerous professional organizations, including the International Institute of Strategic Studies and a frequent presenter at academic conferences.
		So coming up, it is certainly timely.
		It is the year of the pig, everybody.
		That's the year of the pig, Chinese year of the pig.
		Coming up in a moment, Ralph Sawyer.
		Ralph Sawyer, welcome to the program.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, sir.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		And Gung Shi Fatai, which in Chinese means may you be prosperous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I thank you.
		And it is my understanding.
		Now, my wife and I are expecting a baby girl.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Oh, fantastic.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		This is the year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I'm told, I read last night that babies born during the year of the pig are prosperous and what was the other?
		I think, well, you can probably fill it in for me.
		Prosperous and I think they're honest.
		And what other attributes are given to babies born?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, steadfast and resilient, all the good virtues that you would associate with a pig, and none of the sort of weaknesses.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		And best of all, for you, they generally take good care of their parents.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Happy to hear that one.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Of course, it's a kind of funny issue because there is a debate in Hong Kong and other places as to whether this is a fire pig or an earth pig or, in fact, it might be the golden pig.
		And people are inclined to want to believe it's the year of the golden pig.
		But there are several systems that are being consulted by the various astrologers and geomancers.
		And they're arguing among themselves pretty vehemently, actually.
		A couple of them came to blows last week in Hong Kong at a time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Came to blows.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Just like the Taiwan legislature seems to do these days as well.
		And when you look at this, it's probably a year of some turmoil because the Chinese characters for the year, there are always two characters that make up the year designation, they generally are understood as representing fire and water.
		And in this case, the fire is above the water, and that's considered not too good a situation.
		On the other hand, if you're an Eijing scholar and you look at that, you might say, well, lightning should be above the water, or the sun should be above the water.
		So it depends upon your kind of perspective and how you want to interpret this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm told that the golden figure comes either only every 60 years or 600 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that correct?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's actually 60 years because the Chinese calendar uses a system, a running system of 10, what they call heavenly stems and 12 earthly branches.
		And the 12 branches are associated with the 12 animals of the Chinese zodiac, which for this year would be the pig.
		So if you start by running A in the first one and A in the bottom, you go A, A, and then B, B, etc.
		So it takes 60 to run the cycle because of the difference between the 10 and the 12.
		So the characters for the golden pig can only come up every 60 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you tell me why they're confused about their own calendar?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, because over the centuries, people have put forward different interpretations of how the five elements, earth, air, fire, metal, water, and wood, actually relate to each other and how the cycle should run.
		So some of these sequences come from 2,000 years ago, and others come from 1,000 years ago.
		And depending upon what system, just like our astrological systems in the West, depending upon which system you happen to believe in, you get a different interpretation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this belief supported by the Chinese government, or did they, it seems to me they ran through a big thing where they tried to eradicate all these beliefs, right?
unidentified		Oh, of course.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		This was one of the premises of the communist movement back in the 40s, that anything that was feudalistic, and this, of course, was highly feudalistic, anything feudalistic had to be eliminated.
		And when they had the Cultural Revolution, if you were caught with, say, the almanacs, which everybody now has in their hands to decide what you should do on what day, I mean, that would be certainly grounds for a beating or getting sent down to the farm for the rest of your life.
		But of course, among the common people, these sorts of beliefs tend to persist.
		They couldn't be eradicated that easily.
		And now everything, all these excesses that are related to the popular practice of religion, having children, funerals, weddings, etc., have all come back with a great fury.
		People Finally, beginning to have a little prosperity, and they're going out and spending money once again.
		For example, for tombs, they're spending $10,000, $20,000, $50,000 U.S. for a favorable tomb site so that when they die, their descendants and their ancestors can benefit by the proper, what we call geomantic orientation.
		That's the feng shui.
		And these are astronomical prices.
		The government is opposed to this, but it's not an issue they want to crack down on right now because they have enough internal unrest problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an incredible amount of money, actually, for the Chinese.
		Just an amazing amount of money.
		So I take it the Chinese have more disposable income these days.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's certainly true.
		I mean, all of a sudden there are 35 billionaires in China.
		How many of them made their money through corrupt government connections, we won't speculate on.
		I have enough enemies looking to hit me in the head already.
		So yes, well, I'm known as an enemy of the people.
		And oh, I'd like to make it clear at this point that when we talk about China tonight, we are not talking about the Chinese people.
		We are talking about the small minority, the oligarchy, the autocrats who control the government, the few hundred on the very top, and maybe the 13 million important Chinese communist members out of, say, the 86 million.
		We're not talking about the Chinese who live down the street from you or the average Chinese in China who are basically apolitical and they just don't want to be bothered by the government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we going to end up in a war with China, Ralph?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		My feeling would be that within the next 30 years, we will certainly have conflict with China.
		The size of the conflict and the type of the war is very much open to question.
		Obviously, in this day and age of the dispersed battlefield, we're not going to have two massive armies pick up sticks like India and China may and meet somewhere in the middle of Pacific and start clubbing each other to death.
		The points of conflict, of course, right now is Taiwan and then the Southeast Asia.
		And the question is whether China will at some point grow so confident and so belligerent that it decides that it has to retake Taiwan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and if that began, if China decided it was going to retake Taiwan, and this time it really was going to do it, I have a couple of questions.
		One, are they militarily capable of achieving that?
		And two, what is your opinion with regard to our reaction, whether we would really step in and roll the dice and protect Taiwan at all costs?
		Or would we back away and say, look, it really is within China's realm of influence, and that's that.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, to take the second question first, we've been practicing this policy of strategic ambiguity, which means we try to keep the Chinese off balance as to whether or not we would, in fact, interfere.
		And events in Taiwan have suggested some distancing between the United States and Taiwan.
		On the other hand, there are a number of business interests that have important assets in Taiwan, and wouldn't like to see those disappear at this point.
		Five or ten years down the road, probably doesn't matter.
		When you go to Washington these days, as I unfortunately have to do, you find that the general temper is that Taiwan isn't worth defending.
		And that's not official policy as far as I know.
		But generally speaking, our assets would be very exposed, our carrier battle groups and so forth, by the time they could reach Taiwan with the new Chinese weapons that are coming online, the Chinese practice of unorthodox warfare, which we can talk about a little bit later, and striking nodes of vulnerability, maybe sabotage and subversion, and a number of other things applied in coordination, the U.S. response might be too little and too late.
		My own opinion, and that of maybe one or two others, is that Taiwan is going to fall from internal subversion.
		The people in Taiwan are already becoming very much acculturated.
		There are hundreds of thousands, if not a million, Taiwanese in mainland China doing business these days.
		Taiwan provided the initial economic impetus and much of the basic technology over the last few decades to get the great economic engine of mainland China going.
		For your listeners who aren't too familiar with these things, in the early days, shoe factories and plastics factories went to mainland China.
		And everybody says, well, these kinds of factories are kind of throwaway.
		I mean, this is low-level production.
		Who wants it anyway?
		But when you transfer a shoe factory, it takes 2,000 employees.
		You teach management practices, rubber chemistry, adhesives, all sorts of technological fundamentals.
		And you also now have an army, which before was barefoot, can be equipped with Air Jordans at a moment's notice just by confiscating the shoes.
		So this kind of bases, get your engine going.
		People in Taiwan these days, some are pro-unification with China.
		Others are for Taiwan independence.
		We know that the Chinese have been able to penetrate Taiwanese defensive computer system, the power system, the water system.
		They have something like 900 short and intermediate range missiles aimed at Taiwan, some of which have enough accuracy to hit within 60 meters of the designated target that could be used for a kind of surgical strike to take out the defenses, the airfields, and so forth.
		And you have unknown number of agents and sympathizers, fifth columnists.
		So the question is, if push came to shove, would Taiwan itself fight?
		Never mind, would the United States, in fact, come to the aid of Taiwan?
		My feeling is that Taiwan will just collapse from within.
		People will throw up their hands And say it can't be helped.
		And in terms of unorthodox thinking and unorthodox warfare, the best time to do this would be this coming fall because everybody expects prior to the Olympics: no, China will not make any moves to upset the apple cart.
		This is going to be China's great glorious moment.
		But if you can have Taiwan collapse from within with a little bit of aggressive help and maybe a little blockade, by the time January, February got here, everybody would say, just like with Tibet, oh, it's all over.
		It was the Civil War.
		It was internal.
		Nothing we can do about it.
		Let's go forward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
		Of course, every time there's been a problem previously, we've always shown the flag.
		You know, we get a carrier over there or a battle group over there.
		And there is always this danger that if we did, Ralph, if we did nothing more than, for example, send a battle group over there to kind of show the flag as hostilities began or whatever, and one of our big assets was hit, you can take it from there.
james gilliland ▲ ● ▼		Right.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		That's the danger of entanglement, and that's why a lot of people are reluctant, in fact, to commit groups.
		On the other hand, the Pacific War Command, which is based in Hawaii, is bulking up its assets to the extent it can with the commitments in Iraq and the Middle East, Afghanistan, and so forth.
		And additional submarines and presumably another carrier are going to be assigned to the Hawaii headquarters for deployment in Southeast Asia.
		So we are increasing our exposure.
		Of course, the closest Air Force assets are Japan and then Okinawa and Guam.
		They can be there generally in two to three hours flight time.
		But our response is pretty much prescripted.
		And the PRC will be able to anticipate what we do.
		They'll be able to anticipate the sailings of the aircraft carriers and so forth and so on.
		And there are many ways to disable an aircraft carrier and make it ineffective short of hitting it with a cruise missile or a torpedo.
		For example.
		Well, if you arrange for some sabotage in advance, the placement of certain types of jamming devices, the use of jamming devices in the skies, an EMP pulse or something like that, you can probably find some disgruntled sailors who are willing to, say, disable the elevators.
		Well, if your elevators don't work, you can't get your planes up on deck.
		Things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you think their response would be something, although an EMP pulse, of course, would be pretty dramatic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just thinking that if one of our carriers was hit in a moment like that, there would be no turning back.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		We have this doctrine of proportionate force and proportionate response.
		And I think it's going to depend upon who's in the White House and exactly how many assets we have available.
		The United States has shown great reluctance to use any sort of nuclear weapon, tactical or otherwise.
		And if you're not willing to use a tactical nuclear weapon, I'm not sure how you can respond in that scenario and make the point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But when somebody takes out one of your aircraft carriers, you probably have very little, you have limited options.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it seems to me, I know about this doctrine of proportional response, but I've always thought and still think now that that could conceivably fall apart very quickly.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		It depends upon who's in the White House and what his thinking is.
		One thing we should keep in mind is that the Chinese historically have always been willing to take enormous numbers of casualties to achieve their objectives.
		And it's not just historical practice, which we saw in Korea and throughout Chinese history where hundreds of thousands were killed and died in single battles, but it's also a point of military doctrine.
		One of the traditional writings that dates back to 200 B.C. states unequivocally that the best commander is willing to take 50% casualties to achieve his goal.
		This is certainly, when I say that at West Point, half the cadets fall off their chairs.
		And of course, if you take more than 5% or 10% casualties, your career is over in the United States, at least.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it really came to that, Ralph, if it really came to some sort of nuclear conflict, what kind of capability does modern China have right now?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, right now, it's pretty puny and pathetic.
		I mean, they have something like 20 intercontinental ballistic missiles.
		They're liquid fuel, take a couple hours to fuel.
		They're basically based around a Beijing area, although they've been building dummy silos as well.
		They can hit a good portion of the United States, and certainly our forces in Hawaii and Alaska, Guam, and in Japan.
		And they have some more, another 20 intermediate-range missiles, which they can use throughout in the Pacific area to strike battle groups or whatever.
		However, they are in a major modernization mode.
		They are shifting to solid-fueled, mobile-launched ballistic missiles.
		And these 20 that they have right now, we should be replaced by 30 to 50 within the next couple of years, which will probably have multiple warheads with a total destructive potential of over a megaton.
		Currently, the destructive potential of the warheads is probably down around 300,000 kilotons, something like that, of each warhead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's still a lot of bang.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		It is indeed.
		I wouldn't want it falling on my head, which is why I live on the ocean on the East Coast.
		No one wants this rock I'm on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How angry are the Chinese at you?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, I'm not a poison tongue yet.
		Some of the people in Washington who have been constant critics of China and the Chinese policies get all sorts of delightful designations.
		I'm not an actual Washington person.
		I don't work at any agency, though I do have the privilege of consulting to people.
		And I'm not a prominent academic, so I'm pretty much on the fringe, and they kind of ignore me.
		They will send me 100,000 nasty emails.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Well, as many as my mailbox will hold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ralph, hold it right there.
		Ralph Sawyer is my guest.
		He's talking about China.
		And I was recently in China, so I've got a couple of comments and questions for Ralph from the high desert.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Most people don't have a firm grasp on the power of China, how big China really is, and most of all, how big it's about to be and how powerful it's about to be.
		I've spent a good portion of my adult life in the Far East and Southeast Asia.
		So in a moment, I've got a couple of questions for Ralph about what China is doing.
		Ralph, I was in Hong Kong about a year before Hong Kong reverted to China.
		And it was a very interesting I actually went on up into Canton and on up into China.
		And at that time, it was scary, Ralph.
		I saw miles and miles and miles of factories and 18-wheelers just everywhere.
		The traffic was unbelievable.
		The air was horrible.
		And the amount of commerce was frightening.
		Now, I went back to Hong Kong, oh, about six months ago, Ralph, less than that even.
		And this time, I was shocked.
		In Hong Kong, the factories were, oh, 40, 50% of them were empty.
		They had all moved up into China.
		So the Chinese economic machine is rolling right along.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Yes, absolutely.
		And the government is determined to keep that engine going because they have such a large number of people who are unemployed and underemployed.
		And this contributes to the potential unrest.
		No one can compete with those wages except maybe in Africa these days.
		And none of the African countries seem to be organized and offering incentives that China is.
		Of course, the backside is that everyone's going to China not just for manufacturing, but with an eye to that vast market of 1.3 billion people.
		So you're hoping that your products that are manufactured in China can also be marketed in China.
		Initially, the government has not been permitting too much of that sort of activity, but it is happening more and more.
		Sometimes there's a phony re-export and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the old-line communists, Ralph, are still in control.
		There's no question about that.
		But the economic machine is almost the other side of that.
		And anything the old-liners will do that upsets that apple cart, if enough time passes, it seems to me that eventually the economics take over the politics.
		Now, that's what a lot of Americans think.
		What do you think?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, one, we'll hope that that's true, and we can also hope that hedonism will overtake the populace so that they'll be so busy enjoying themselves they won't want to go to war with anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		But there are significant numbers of hardliners and disaffected people in the military, and the military has been kind of shunted out of power in the last two regimes.
		I mean, Zhang Jia-min and now the current Hu Jintao.
		These two regimes were not military men.
		This is the first time that this had happened.
		And this caused a lot of resentment among the military authorities.
		We do have a lot of voices saying that as soon as China gets powerful enough, it should assert itself in various ways on the world stage.
		They're tired of being kicked around by the Caucasians and others.
		They still wave the card of shame how a paltry 3,000-man British force was able to subjugate the Qing dynasty.
		The Qing dynasty, of course, was an alien regime.
		It was corrupt and it was effect.
		And if they had had the will, 10,000 crossbowmen could have decimated that column of 3,000 British Marines.
		But the government didn't get itself together to do that.
		So they're still reliving that and trying to live down that shame.
		China's beginning to flex its muscles.
		Since antiquity, they've realized that having a vibrant market economy is the basis for a good defense budget.
		Now, China ordinarily is regarded as a Confucian country, and the Confucians are not very mercantile-oriented as far as government bureaucrats go, but the people certainly are.
		And under Deng Xiaoping, the decision was kind of made that let's get the economic engine going first rather than emphasizing defense, which we didn't have the funds for.
		And once that becomes vibrant, it will fund all kinds of military expenditures, the latest weapons.
		And because many of the factories that have gone into China now, the electronics, the fiber optics, and other companies, they are manufacturing these dual-use technologies which have immediate military application or can be modified and adopted regularly easily, the policy is working very well.
		The economy is booming because the wages are low.
		The infrastructure, of course, as you saw, is totally clogged and it's a problem to overcome.
		The air is killing everybody and half the water isn't drinkable.
		If you put your foot up in the Dongqing Lake, it will probably fall off.
		The Yellow River doesn't even flow to the sea a couple of months of the year now.
		They have every problem you can possibly imagine.
		But at the same time, they're generating huge funds, and some of these funds are now going to pay for the latest in the military toys, some of which are being bought from Russia, and some of which are being developed indigenously, because they have this great emphasis on Chinese military doctrine and Chinese military devices with unique Chinese characteristics.
		In other words, they don't want to just borrow Western stuff.
		They want to innovate and be kind of unexpected and have what they call their own indigenous technologies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		China talks a pretty good game.
		I mean, they talk a peaceful rise, and they're portrayed as becoming a responsible world citizen, but you don't view them that way, and you view them apparently as America's greatest Threat.
		Is that true?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		I believe so.
		Because when you look at the doctrine that goes back to antiquity, the first thing you always do is conceal strength and display a weak and benign countenance.
		And Deng Xiaoping had emphasized that when he talked about hiding their light under a bushel.
		And ever since then, the last 15 years, China's always talked about being a good world citizen, having no aggressive intents towards anyone.
		And of course, if you want to be unhampered, and if you don't want to scare the other countries around you, Malaysia, Indonesia, et cetera, et cetera, into constantly thwarting and opposing your every move, particularly as you try to expand into the South China Sea and Southeast Asia, then of course you want to seem like a benign citizen.
		In addition, they found that soft or economic power is working extremely well.
		If you go to Washington, you'll find anyone who criticizes anything that happens with China is almost immediately marginalized and then dismissed as irrelevant.
		And if you don't mind, I'd like to take one example, which relates to the satellite issue which you've been discussing on your show in the last couple weekends.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go right ahead.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, Michael Pillsbury, who's one of our leading thinkers and scholars on China and an advisor to the Secretary of Defense, on January 19th, he presented testimony in Congress describing the commitment that PRC has to space weapons.
		And as I sit here, I have a stack of the Chinese theoretical military journals.
		And the top two that I have, both are featuring space weapons, 50 years in space, anti-satellite weapons, et cetera, et cetera.
		So this is not some sort of shot out of the blue.
		This is something they've been discussing and planning on for some years.
		And in addition, they're positioning all these unknown micro-satellites up there in the sky in different places, which have no known purpose at the moment.
		So there's some consternation about that.
		Anyway, Mike Pillsbury presented his testimony to Congress and said that this is part of their basic program to achieve dominance of space.
		The Chinese have realized that net-centric warfare, which is what the U.S. is totally dependent on, which means GPS communications, et cetera, et cetera, net-centric warfare can be easily blocked simply by taking out the satellites.
		And also the observation satellites can be blinded with lasers.
		So we had the laser test last year where they so-called painted one of our observation satellites as it passed over.
		And we have this test this year where they shot down a satellite and put all that debris up there in space, which may cause all kinds of problems down the road.
		After Michael gave his testimony, the next day the reaction was, oh, the sort of people that he's sighting, we don't know if these are fringe people or not.
		And this probably isn't the main thinking.
		And so far, there are no indications that China is anything than a friend of America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With respect to this anti-satellite weapon they just demonstrated, Ralph, can you settle something for us?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was this a brilliant pebbles kind of thing, or was this a direct hit?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		As far as we understand, they launched a vehicle up there, and then they maneuver it and struck it from the side, causing it to shatter.
		It was not an explosive device, and it shows an ability to control a vehicle of unknown size and shape at the moment in space in this low-level atmosphere.
		Whether they could do this at 12,000 miles and 24,000 miles where the GPS satellites are located is a totally different question.
		But without doubt, they now have good control of their vehicles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I should say so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If this was some kind of direct hit, Ralph, that's quite an achievement, actually.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, there's no question it was deliberate and it was engineered and it was planned.
		The debate is on the interpretation.
		Why did they do it now?
		To prove that they could do it?
		Because they wanted to make sure they could do it?
		Because it's a lead-up to Taiwan?
		Because they wanted to delay the United States from weaponizing space, maybe get a treaty going?
		Well, if you look at Chinese military doctrine going back to antiquity, the unorthodox thinking prescribes whenever you want to achieve something, let's say you're going to attack the enemy, the first thing you do is talk peace, treaty, just like before Pearl Harbor.
		The attack on Pearl Harbor is a perfect example of unorthodox warfare.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct, sure.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		And so maybe China wants to sort of force the United States to the table so that we all agree to some kinds of limitations on what will be done in the common areas of sea and of space.
		That doesn't mean they're going to adhere to it.
		They just want to maybe set it up and then exploit it to their own advantage.
		And since there'd be no way to police it, and since we know so little about what's actually going on inside China, it would be very difficult to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ralph, do we know whether the little adventure they had blowing up that satellite, was that, I guess, a kinetic weapon, but a direct hit, was that ordered from the top?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There were some people saying that they thought it was some sort of a rogue military action.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think we actually know that.
		I'm not privy to that sort of top secret information if we did know it.
		I'm an outside consultant at best.
		I give opinions on various intentions and strategic issues and that assessments rather than the details of weapons.
		And someone in Washington may know that.
		But on the whole, my sense is that our ignorance about China is extreme.
		And there is this constant battle between the military and the political leadership.
		And one thing we should always remember, the military, the army in China is a party army.
		It is not a national or state army.
		It is the army of the people's party.
		And therefore, it can be directed against the people, the populace, without any sort of conflict of interest.
		Whereas in the United States, of course, The army is a national army.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you expect any sort of internal Chinese mess ahead of us?
		In other words, is there going to be some sort of internal uprising, and are we going to see people, you know, scholars taken down, that kind of thing again?
		Or are we past all that now?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's very strange.
		Throughout Chinese history, the Chinese have always gone to extremes with these different kinds of millenarian revolutions.
		The cultural revolution was just the latest embodiment of that.
		When we look at China, and as you mentioned early on, it's a vast country.
		Really, it should be a series of smaller countries, just like Europe.
		All these different regions, Guangdong in the south and the Beijing area and so forth, Guangxi, et cetera.
		These are really nation-size provinces.
		And there's a lot of animosity.
		There are a tremendous number of factors and elements leading to destabilization within China historically.
		People in the Canton area, which is around Hong Kong, they generally don't like the rest of the Chinese.
		And most of the other Chinese, they all think the people from Guangdong are greasy pigs.
		So, you know, and there have been border fights between Jiangxi and Guangdong and things like this.
		There's tremendous animosity between the interior and the well-developed regions along the coast, between the Shanghai people and the Beijing people.
		There is this horrendous number of unemployed people, 150 million estimated.
		You have this large growing male surplus, something around 13 million right now, but projected at 30 million within 10 years.
		Who knows where they're going to go, potential reservoir for war.
		There is economic disparity.
		It was one thing 15 or 20 years ago when a few government cadres could drive around and beat up old Russian vehicles and thumb their noses at the populace.
		But now you have all these rich people who have not just millions, but hundreds of millions and tens of millions.
		You have peasants being displaced from their farmland.
		You have riots going on.
		Last year, something like 80 or 90,000 riots in which the People's Armed Police, that's sort of like our National Guard, were called in.
		When you read the Chinese newspapers, the internal press, which I try to do every day, I read at least 30 newspapers online, you see reports of poisonings and bombings.
		There was a report just last week that five of the main military warehouses in the South were emptied of all their weapons by the local people.
		So you have weapons and explosives floating around the countryside.
		If there is, say, a sudden shortage of electricity in your major cities, 20 years ago, people were happy if they had one 25-watt light bulb.
		They thought that was wonderful.
		Now, if you don't have air conditioning in the summer and heat in the winter, there's going to be a great unrest if the discos don't have lights at night.
		And China has an extreme energy shortage.
		You have overcrowding and population in the factory areas.
		People are beginning to think about organizing in these factories because the working conditions were something like the mills in the United States back in the 1880s and 1890s.
		So you have a whole raft of factors that lead to destabilization.
		And against that, you have this small 13 million, 3 million, whatever, exalted cadres leading the government.
		And at the local level, really, they disdain the population.
		And so everything the Communist Party promised has now fallen by the wayside.
		You know, economic equality, the end of drugs, the provision of health services, that's no longer true.
		With the collapse of the communes and such, you have no health services.
		Education has suddenly become expensive.
		People have to pay for education.
		The one-child policy, the children aren't able to care for their parents.
		You have this terrible problem with abortions and the killing of female children because people want to have a male child.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is still going on.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, of course.
		Of course.
		Although now with the sexual determination test that you can do, people know in advance, so it's more abortions rather than actual killing after birth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the current ratio in China of male to female?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Do you know?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Some of the figures in some areas indicate 113 to 100.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		And it's projected to go to 118 to 100.
		So the government is trying to think of what to do here.
		So the government is inclined to try to satisfy the people in as many ways as possible, which is why you see all these activities to try to get, for example, oil resources in countries like Venezuela, Mozambique, Angola, Sudan, Nigeria, to try to get mineral resources because you have to keep the people happy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much of a factor in the current price of oil would be the Chinese?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		I'm an advisor to one oil company, actually two oil companies, and we're very much concerned about that.
		But it's probably only 5% to 10% fluctuation.
		I mean, that's the estimates that I hear.
		I have no expert knowledge in this area.
		I'm basically a business strategy advisor, but one here is 5% to 10% at this time.
		The Chinese are going out of their way to secure resources that won't come to fruition for 5%, 10, 15, even 20 years on the expectation that there won't be any resources then.
		And that's why they're going to build these 40 or 50 nuclear power plants and do a number of other things.
		And by the way, 40 or 50 nuclear power plants will make an awful lot of nuclear weapons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		That's absolutely true.
		Do you think their expectations are realistic?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		I think the government has a good handle on things right now.
		I think they can continue, as long as they can keep the economic engine growing at about 10% a year and can solve some of these energy issues and such, and also achieve a bit of national prestige because whenever you have internal unrest, you always play the external crisis card.
		I mean, North Korea is threatening us.
		All the people come to the rescue of the party and all that stuff.
		I think they're going to achieve their objectives, and I can see them dominating the world in 2050.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In 2050.
		All right.
		Hold it right there, Ralph.
		Dominating the world in 2050.
		And I know that's hard for the American mind to grasp because right now we dominate the world.
		Is our tenure really that short?
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
		Country that turns back time.
		The year of the cat.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Ralph Sawyer is my guest.
		And he's talking about China.
		He's an expert on China.
		And he just said by the year 2050, they probably will dominate the world.
		And if you've ever been to China, or if you've been to China in recent years, my sense is you'd agree with that completely.
		We'll be right back.
		Without getting into a debate about whether it's right or wrong, right now, we really are the world's adventuresome ones.
		The United States has got its fingers entwined all around the world.
		Now, Ralph, I wonder if we should begin to turn our attention suddenly toward Iran, and there's plenty in the wind suggesting that might occur, what you would expect, if anything, from China?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Chinese have an interest in seeing the United States frustrated and thwarted at every possible turn.
		My feeling is that nothing makes them happier in Beijing than to look across and see what's happening in Iraq and to see our military is being stretched thin and our equipment is being depleted and our nation as a whole is being enervated by this problem.
		And if we were to move towards resolving a nuclear threat from Iran, China probably wouldn't do anything overt.
		But on the other hand, they are building rail lines right now to Iran so that they can have access indirectly to the Indian Ocean, just like they're building rail lines and paying for them through Pakistan so they can access that area.
		I mean, and also through Burma.
		So they're interested in integrating Central Asia and the countries of the Middle East into their sphere.
		Iran, for them, represents a huge oil-producing area.
		This perhaps gives us some leverage to get the Chinese to persuade the Iranians to act in a more congenial fashion.
		The last thing China wants to see is their oil supplies from the Middle East cut off.
		And that's highly likely to happen in the event of an Iranian conflict.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why I asked the question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that would provide a number of opportunities for them, and one would be to make a move at that point on Taiwan.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you would expect that?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't necessarily expect it, but it would be an opportune time.
		The more the United States becomes entangled, the less it's able to respond to a situation like Taiwan, and Taiwan could easily be seen as something that might be jettisoned.
		It's not particularly in our interest.
		What assets do we have in Taiwan?
		We don't have any bases.
		It's not like the Philippines where we used to have a Clark and Subic Bay or Okinawa where you were or some other places.
		Taiwan is not of any military value to us.
		We do have a little bit of listing posts there and such, but that's about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've got a lot of economic interests there.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Direct, and the more important ones are actually indirect because an awful lot of our IC and chip production is contracted through Taiwan, even though, say, 60% of that is in turn manufactured in mainland China.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		We could find ourselves in a very difficult situation in terms of computers that the military uses, especially the more limited specialized chips, if Taiwan were to be denied to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you look at the U.S. sphere of influence, and then you look at the potential sphere of influence of China.
		A person could make the case that they have or should have or should be allowed to have certain territorial rights that they certainly want.
		Then there's the Spratly Islands as well.
		I wonder what's going on there and what moves China might or might not make with the Spratleys.
		But I mean, with respect to Taiwan, there's a certain feeling in the world that perhaps it's rightly theirs.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, China, of course, is playing the civil war type card.
		Whenever the United States criticizes or someone voices an opinion about that, they say, well, let's look at the American Civil War and what happened to reintegrate the country.
		And therefore, this is exactly the same situation.
		In addition, we have this agreement, this one-China agreement, which has some nebulous aspects to it and was rather hastily constructed.
		We probably could have gotten something better, but that's a matter of debate, which suggests that the United States ultimately recognizes the territorial claims of the People's Republic of China over Taiwan.
		However, feebly those are based historically.
		I mean, Taiwan was never really integrated into the Chinese Empire at any time.
		But on the other hand, neither was Tibet.
		And yet, look what happened to Tibet.
		And, you know, Tibet's just fallen off the pages of history.
		I mean, they were invaded in 1951.
		You can't have a people that are more distinctive culturally, ethnically, racially, religiously, or otherwise than Tibetans and Chinese.
		And yet no one's concerned about the fact that China has occupied forcibly Tibet.
		And yet they continue to argue that, oh, we're a benign state.
		We have never committed aggression against any country or any state.
		This is an amazing thing.
		People accept this, and I get constantly into debate about it.
		But if you look back across Chinese history, all the way back to 1000 B.C., you find that the central Chinese powers were constantly conducting major campaigns against the contiguous states.
		And the time doesn't permit us to talk about it here.
		But to take one example, between 598 and 668, the Chinese dynasties mounted something like 11
		major invasions of Korea and eventually you know totally subjugated the the whole peninsula at one time forces involved were up to 500,000 so historically even though people you know the People's Republic claims they never historically committed aggressive acts here's a prime example and the Koreans will be very happy to jump up and tell you about that and in modern times of course they went to war against India they've invaded and occupied Tibet they had the Debacol in Vietnam which
		claim as a chastisement.
		They taught Vietnam a lesson, but of course they got their butts thoroughly kicked there.
		And of course they had the little skirmish with the Russians.
		So we have this kind of benign image and then we have actions that are kind of contrary to it.
		And I think that's sort of a contradiction that we have to be aware of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you ticked off a number of items earlier in the discussion that would seem to indicate you believe that there's going to be another internal crisis not very far down the road for China.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		I think it's a good possibility, particularly because major elements of the military I think are still very disaffected.
		They've lost their economic base.
		Their companies were taken away from them.
		They tend to be sitting in the dustbin as everybody else is on the prosperity wagon.
		Your average soldier, I mean, he's barely getting enough to eat.
		And in the old days, being a soldier was a respectable job.
		I mean, you had food, you had some status, you had living quarters, you had medical care.
		Now, if you're a soldier, people laugh at you and say you must be some kind of dumkins who have gone into the military.
		So, you get the military very disaffected.
		And in addition, they've been riffing out a lot of people.
		I mean, they've had major reductions so that their regular army is down to 2,300,000.
		So that means 1,200,000 have been shed in the last seven or eight years.
		These are people with, you know, military training.
		weapons they know how to you know conduct the three block war as we say they know where the weapons are kept if these people get motivated such as we saw in the Zhengzhou riots two years ago 100,000 of them could gather in no time with cell phones text messaging and things like that China has always been very volatile and this is one of the strange things here in the West we tend to have this image of China as a very Pacific country tea drinking poetry
		riding, sitting around, admiring the river.
		And some famous scholars, including John Fairbank at Harvard, who was my advisor, said that China has no heroes and they have no martial culture.
		And that is completely and absolutely wrong.
		I mean, they have all kinds of heroes.
		And if you want the most recent, of course, it's Bruce Lee and Jet Li.
		They have a martial culture that's second to none.
		They have a history of warfare that was unremitting and continuous.
		They have the largest military writings, a huge corpus, 400 books right now that I have in my own personal library that go back to 500 B.C. And they have a conscious cultivation of a military ethos that's found among the populace in general.
		I mean, everybody admires strongmen.
		And China, in particular, admires things like assassins.
		So when we talk about China coming to dominate in 2050, I see two kind of reasons.
		One is that as their own economy grows very strong, they become self-sufficient.
		So if you look at the world, it's divided up into, say, four major market areas, North America, Europe, and Southeast Asia, including Africa, and then China.
		Pretty soon, China will reach the point where if it loses one of the other three, it will be irrelevant.
		They can afford to antagonize the American market.
		They can afford to, you know, get in conflict with Americans and not be able to continue to export to America, say, in 10 or 15 years.
		And at the same time, they are also consciously modeling on the ancient Qin dynasty case.
		The state of Qin was the one that's associated with all those wonderful tomb figures and soldiers that you see in Xi'an.
		The state of Qin was a little peripheral state in the west of China.
		And early on, it embraced the kind of Spartan military ethos compared to the other six states to the east.
		And it gradually, through a program of systematic subversion, assassination, bribery, military power, corruption, soft and hard power, displaced and conquered the other six states.
		And contemporary think tanks, looking at that and seeing that as an example, is how China today can proceed to end American hegemony in the Pacific and then in the world.
		And all those elements, particularly bribery and disinformation, et cetera, et cetera, which make up a kind of unorthodox, subversive program, are very much discussed and embraced in their military writings.
		So they seem to have this plan, and they seem to be willing to take 25 years to get there.
		The first stage will be to eliminate the United States in the Pacific.
		And we're already seeing that happen.
		I mean, in Australia, the United States rating has gone way down.
		Many Australians will not support the United States if we go to the support of Taiwan.
		The Australian government has signed a number of agreements to sell uranium and other things to People's Republic of China.
		And, in fact, People's Republic of China is trying to keep India from being able to buy uranium from Australia right now because they're concerned this is the only power that can be a counterbalance to India.
		to them, the only threat.
		And India's population will surpass China's, I think, in 15 years, something like that.
		And India is, you know, building its military with amazing speed.
		And now that they have nuclear weapons, well, the Chinese want to keep the Indians from having as many nuclear weapons as they do.
		Anyway, you see this kind of soft power working in Asia.
		Countries like the Philippines are now having Chinese taught as a second language in their high schools.
		Even places like Indonesia, which are very, very anti-Chinese, always have been.
		I mean, when I've gone into Indonesia, I've had my Chinese books taken away from me at customs and even gotten severe lectures about, you know, this kind of material is extremely evil.
		All of a sudden, the Indonesians are cozying up to the Chinese and asking for aid and, you know, signing trade deals.
		So you see this soft power of PRC beginning to be very effective.
		Only the Japanese are kind of standing off and saying they're very threatening.
		And that's why the Japanese have been much more open to military alliances and measures with the United States in the last year or so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've just got back from the Philippines, as you probably know, and I didn't see any sign of Chinese being taught as a second language.
		Actually, English is very strong in the Philippines.
		But what I did note is that, and I was quite surprised, the Chinese are the number one country.
		They send more retirees to the Philippines than any other country in the world.
		I thought the U.S. would be at the head of the list, but actually we're far down the list.
		The Chinese, the Koreans, and even the Japanese are far ahead of us.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, Philippines have a lot of advantages.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		The climate, if you like heat, which I don't, but if you like heat, well, Philippines is a wonderful place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and of course, everything's relatively inexpensive, so it makes a good retirement location.
		Exactly.
		Now, the Chinese have been, you know, we live in an information world, and the Chinese have been very actively spying on us for some time.
		And they're very active on the Internet in that regard as well.
		Where is that going?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, cyber warfare is the new form of what we call Mao Zedong's people's warfare.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		You may recall during the revolution when the communists came to power, they used massive human wave attacks and large armies that was called people's warfare.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, for the new information age, and Swinz's thinking is very much being used for this as well, new information age is cyber warfare.
		Easiest way to defeat your opponent, according to traditional military thinking, is to thwart his plans and alliances.
		Well, everything in a net-centric world is dependent on computers.
		So the Department of Defense computers are constantly under attack.
		And in fact, just this past fall, the Naval War College down in Newport, their system was severely compromised.
		They had to shut down 100% just before a major conference on Chinese energy policies.
		That was not a coincidence, of course.
		It's known that Cyber Warfare College is able to penetrate virtually every corporation in the United States.
		And about 18 months ago, they destroyed the hard drives on the two computers that I connect to the Internet because I had the given talk, which was somewhat critical of them.
		And after I got my 18,000 pernicious emails with some very interesting language, they also managed to insert worms, and that was the end of my hard drives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was it you said that brought this on?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just suggested what I had mentioned a few minutes ago, that they are consciously following the Qin model of ending U.S. hegemony.
		I'm not the only one who's said this.
		Constantine Menges, who has passed away a couple of years ago, had a book come out, and he didn't speak about the Qin model, but he said, you know, China's trying to end the hegemony.
		And I specifically related it to the Qin model and talked about how assassination played a role.
		And they didn't think that was a particularly appropriate thing for their image.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it was an organized attack.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, it certainly seems to have been.
		I mean, you may get 2,000 or 3,000 emails when you talk about intergalactic travel or something because you're speaking to millions of listeners.
		But I gave a talk in a fairly closed auditorium with 100 and something people and one agent from the PRC, obviously.
		So unless he was repeatedly, and the emails varied in their content somewhat, but I mean, most of them were in Chinese.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they monitor us very carefully.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And monitor you very carefully.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I said before, I'm a fringe player.
		And, you know, I don't, most of my books, my 13th major book just came out.
		Most of my books are on traditional materials.
		I do publish the occasional paper on contemporary situations, but mostly I do consulting in a closed environment.
		I would like to say that after four decades in this game, I'm just barely beginning to think I know something, to tell the truth.
		Just barely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, China is a big subject.
		There's no question about it.
		What I would like to do is turn it over to the audience.
		Let the audience ask you some questions in the next half hour.
		So I really want to go to an open line show in the last hour of the program.
		But I want to go to about 30 minutes of questions from the audience.
		There are a lot of people very, very interested in China.
		I'm one of them.
		I don't know that I agree with you on the year 2050, but it certainly may come to pass.
		They're making some big moves.
		I just don't know.
		I kind of balance in my mind, Ralph, the Chinese military, the Communist Party, such as it is right now, and the growing economic machine, which in the end may end up controlling the political end of things.
		in fact, I don't think it's all that far away.
		So it could go that way.
		It doesn't have to go the way you're suggesting it will go, does it?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the tendency is more towards what I'm thinking because we see, for example, 4,000 unemployed Russian and Ukrainian technicians who are military specialists down there working on developing weapons, and we see them buying all kinds of military technology.
		Once you have these things, and of course they're adding to their short-range ballistic missile inventory at the rate of like $200 or $300 a year, once you have all these toys, there's obviously a tendency to want to wax very belligerently.
		And once you can do that, then you can control the sea lanes and you can, you know, couple threats and coercion with your soft power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		All right.
		Hold it right there, Ralph.
		Ralph Sawyer is my guest, obviously an expert on China.
		If you have questions, we're going to get an open the phone lines in this next half hour.
		Then we're going to do an hour of open lines following that.
		So.
		You know the numbers.
		You know the portals.
		Ralph Sawyer is all yours.
		Something I want you to consider.
		Daryl in Olympia, Washington says the following, and I'd like it confirmed.
		King5 TV in Seattle on the 11 p.m. newscast tonight reported a mystery dust, some kind of dust that covered the Puget Sound area overnight.
		Residents reported they'd never seen anything like it.
		Now, he goes on to say the story is not repeating right now on their 24-hour affiliate and is not on the King5 web.
		So I'd like confirmation on that story.
		And for Ralph, the following from Robert and Dallas, Texas.
		There is always market correction.
		Always.
		Remember not long ago, many thought Japan was going to overtake the U.S. economy?
		And China has no recent achievements other than a growing economy.
		America is still number one in consumption.
		Another will have to emerge.
		He doesn't believe it's going to be China.
		We'll ask about that in a moment.
		Ralph, what about that?
		I mean, there are market corrections.
		And I recall, oh, a little better than a decade ago, we all thought, oh, we thought Japan was going to have the world wrapped up.
		And it certainly did look that way, and it certainly didn't last very long.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, they still control an enormous number of assets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		One of the things that is interesting about the Japanese phenomenon, of course, was that the currency suddenly increased, appreciated in value.
		And at the same time, they had this mass increase in property values within the country.
		So from some viewpoint, a lot of that was very artificial.
		And they talked about it as a bubble economy, and that bubble burst.
		And I remember when the value of our office went from, you know, it had started at about $200,000 and went to like $1,000,000, and then the next day it was worth $600,000.
		So we could see the thing jumping up and down.
		Most of that was mortgage money, of course, unfortunately.
		I tend to think that with the population that China has, the work ethic, and the fact that most of that disposable income is going to be spent within the confines of the Chinese borders itself, and is going to be on goods that are produced in China as opposed to, you know, Westinghouse refrigerators imported from the United States, re-imported from the United States, I tend to think that China will be the dominant economy in the world by 2050, if not sooner.
		But that's just my opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Chuck in Fairbanks, Alaska.
		You're on with Ralph Sawyer.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, Ralph.
		Art, just to show you how far-reaching the effect the Chinese are, I deal in mammoth ivory.
		I've talked to you before, Art.
		And I just got a friend come back from China, and it's like you were saying, Art, that a lot of the business that was situated, the whole mammoth ivory business, was situated in Hong Kong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're all gone.
unidentified		Yeah, well, there's two or three big players, and they're being over.
		I talked to my guy that makes stuff for me over there, and he said that the demand, the Siberian ivory, the people from mainland China know buying it, and it's driven the price just out of sight.
		And he said, and it is just like Rob was just saying, the demand is not outside the country.
		It's the people in China that are making money now that want a piece of jade and nice ivory carving.
		And so is the hope for somebody in the United States to do business with just raw materials like what I deal in?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly what happens is countries like Canada and the United States that do have raw materials will be able to sell to China.
		On the other hand, that's kind of a lowdown on the value-added chain.
		It doesn't do a lot for keeping our people in work.
		And that's one of the things that troubles me about the situation in America with all the electronics factories going to China.
		They also find that all the support engineers and the research and development is going to China.
		And even a couple of my classmates from IT who were big players in the IT game, you know, they're at the age of 60, they're sitting around on their hands unemployed right now.
		So how much of that can the United States afford to lose to China?
		And you're going to see a lot of the innovation occurring in China.
		So these are points where our lead that we've historically enjoyed, innovation, industrial base, realization, et cetera, et cetera, is being eroded or given away deliberately in some cases.
		And that will kind of turn us back to being a nation of raw material suppliers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Ralph, let's say I'm a businessman, an American businessman, and I make a widget, whatever, and I'm preparing to open a plant up in mainland China.
		How would you advise me?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first thing you better do is find a reliable Chinese partner.
		You want to make sure to set up a dummy company somewhere.
		Keep in mind that everybody keeps three or four sets of books, and the most important one is not the one that you show anybody.
		Chances are your partner is going to scowl with your money, and you better have a secondary production facility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you would advise me not to do it?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		There are, I believe, some people who are making money in China, but nine cases out of ten that I know of are not.
		And I know of many cases where people have asked me after the fact to come in and try to help persuade their partners, their distributors, or whatever, to adhere to the terms of the original contract.
		So there are a lot of things happening there.
		The rule of law does not prevail.
		It's talked about the improvements in the legal system, but even if you sue your partners and you can manage to get the case heard in court, by the time you get a judgment, if you get a judgment, or if your opponent pays off the judge, well, you won't get a judgment, there probably won't be anything there.
		So doing business in China is fraught with difficulty.
		I think if you're a huge player like General Electric or somebody like that, you have a possibility of success, particularly where the Chinese government wants your products in China and is willing to facilitate them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Fred, somewhere in Pennsylvania, you're on with Ralph Sawyer.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, Art.
		I've been listening to you since the old K Don days.
		I've got a question for, actually a couple questions for Ralph.
		And it concerns the Chinese and our society.
		The Chinese is a major industrial society right now and is growing, growing every day.
		We are becoming a service industry, but the best thing we could ever do is make silicon chips out of Silicon Valley.
		That is not going to help us in the oncoming war that I believe will take place.
		And what can we do as United States citizens to change this direction of our country from a service industry to an industrial industry?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, my opinion is that we're kind of in the last days of Rome.
		Yes.
		And we do not have any, and this is sort of one of my favorite issues.
		It has nothing to do with China.
		We have never had a kind of debate on what our national self-interest is here.
		We're too busy being divisive and flagellating each other.
		At some point, we should have sat down and said, certain policies are in the United States' best interest.
		We shouldn't allow the export of certain technologies or proprietary processes.
		It's one thing if your shoe factories, which are kind of a dirty, polluting industry, goes overseas.
		It's another thing when your television manufacturers and then your computer manufacturers and all your high-tech applications, your fiber optic manufacturers, and now all your research and development is starting to go overseas.
		And as you say, we are becoming a service industry.
		The only people who are going to be making money are developers doing property, and everybody else is going to be working in McDonald's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sean in upstate New York, you're on with Ralph.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		I guess it's a purely hypothetical question.
		If Congress passed a law tomorrow stating that no American business could either export to or import from China anymore, making it illegal to do business with China, how badly would that hurt the Chinese economy minus our business alone?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why don't you add, how much would it hurt our economy?
unidentified		Well, I'm certain it would hurt our economy in the short run.
unidentified		In the long run, however, it might help our economy in that we would have to reestablish our manufacturing base to take care of our needs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Sean, that's a good question in both ways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ralph?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think this is where the question of a consensus or a debate on our national policy is required.
		The cost to the American economy, of course, would be all of a sudden shoes and everything else.
		If you could get them, it would be extremely expensive.
		On the other hand, what's the imbalance of trade running right now?
		$160 billion or something a year in favor of China?
		Obviously, probably 40% of the factories in China would come to a screeching halt.
		This would cause a great deal of unrest and dissatisfaction.
		The people suddenly wouldn't have any wages.
		They wouldn't have anything to eat.
		And it could have a catastrophic impact.
		Europe, of course, takes a significant amount of production, and the rest of the world takes the remaining 20% or so.
		So I think you make a good point here.
		And there are a couple of people in Congress who have talked about putting punitive tariffs on 27.5% or something on Chinese goods in order to get them to revaluate the UN to make their currency somewhat more expensive.
		The flip side of that is that people want to keep inflation down in the United States.
		And a pair of pants for children coming out of China is, whatever, $9 or something.
		I don't have children at that age, so I don't buy pants.
		I'm not sure.
		But let's say it's $9, and if suddenly you put on these punitive tariffs, it's going to be $12 or $13.
		That will impact a significant segment of our society on a daily basis.
		So I think that's where the balance comes, and that's where you need the debate.
		To the extent that I saw the shoe factories, the textile factories, the plastic factories, et cetera, all close in the United States and go overseas, we say, well, this is a wonderful deal because you buy the products inexpensively, but what are the other costs?
		Unemployment, retraining of people, families shattered, et cetera, et cetera.
		And of course, I have absolutely no expertise in this area whatsoever, so I should just shut my mouth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Christopher in Colorado, you're on with Ralph.
unidentified		Yes, first of all, Mr. Bell, I've been listening ever since my good friend Alvie turned me on to you in the 80s, and I've enjoyed it immensely.
		Mr. Sawyer, is it?
		Yes, sir.
		I have a couple questions for you.
		One, I heard a figure thrown out that 70% of China's gross national product is represented in Walmart.
		And the other question I had for you, and I'll listen on the air, is what can we do as Americans, I mean, besides not going to Walmart, which I don't do for that particular reason, what can we do as Americans to have any effect on all this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		People tend to boil it down to Walmart, and Walmart is a big buyer of Japanese goods.
		There's no question about it.
		How big?
		How much of it's Walmart?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Personally, I don't know.
		I read the same stories in the Wall Street Journal that everybody else does.
		They are a significant factor, but I would think it's more around 10 or 15, 12%, something like that.
		Of course, a lot of people are buying products and then reselling them to Walmart, branded products, and you'd have to count that in indirectly.
		I mean, if they're, for example, carrying RCA TVs, they're not buying those directly from China.
		They're buying them through the RCA Chinese subsidiary, which is usually marketing through the U.S. subsidiary.
		And to some extent, some of China's productivity and gross national product is illusory because a lot of component parts are being imported and then assembly processes are going on and then the product is re-exported.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's not a very clear thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you buy a television set, for example, you Don't really know where the different parts of that TV came from.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what I thought.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And then some of the profits, of course, are being made by the parent corporation in the United States.
		So that contributes to the U.S. economy as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John in Colorado, you're on with Ralph.
unidentified		Hey, Art.
		Hey, Ralph.
		I was just wondering, How much of our federal trade deficit or how much of our total debts has China purchased or absorbed?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've seen some estimates that, you know, in the significant 20, 30 percent.
		I'm not sure how these numbers are determined.
		And again, I'm a military expert.
		I'm not an expert in economics.
		I'm afraid I can't really give you an accurate answer here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		And from a military point of view, you're kind of on the negative side.
		Do you think that this is going to, there's going to be a military conflict?
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I've written in a couple of position papers, one of which is available on the web at jmss.org, just was recently posted, I think the Chinese will become increasingly belligerent, and there are some hardliners.
		There are some voices that have been publicly heard over the last 10 years advocating very aggressive policies towards the United States and even against Canada, including the Minister of Defense a couple of years ago.
		Well, the Minister of Defense is hardly an insignificant person.
		When he starts talking about aggressive use of nuclear weapons against the United States, I think we have to pay a little bit of attention.
		Of course, the reaction in Washington immediately is, oh, well, it's just a fringe remark, or the fellow's a lunatic, or he's unimportant.
		Hey, wait a minute.
		He's the Minister of Defense.
		And there have been certain thoretical writings that have come out which substantiate the need to conduct warfare in an unrestricted manner against the United States.
		And for your audience that's interested, my latest book on unorthodox warfare just out last week.
		We get the plug-in here or the publisher will be mad at this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's called The Dow of Deception.
		This discusses unorthodox warfare and the way in which the Chinese are perhaps planning to subvert and sabotage the United States in case of a conflict with Taiwan or just in general terms.
		And there's a variety of methods that they can use to attack our nodes of vulnerability.
		So as long as you have people consciously formulating these things and openly expressing them, I mean, I have a stack of the latest military manuals right here.
		And you can find in every issue articles of this type.
		This is not an anomaly.
		Someone one time in 2004 said at some obscure conference that, oh, why don't we attack the U.S.?
		Or why don't we disable the U.S. by, you know, cutting the rivers or something like that.
		No, no.
		This is something that's ongoing, is part of the conscious dialogue.
		It's usually dismissed as the wishful thinking of hardliners to achieve a greater, more grandiose posture for China and the world before they get too old to see it, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Speaking of getting old, you mentioned earlier, Ralph, that there were quite a number of millionaires now, multi-millionaires even, in China.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's not very communistic.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Of course, absolutely not.
		And basically, the government is no longer communist.
		There are a couple of voices you hear here and there that are calling for a return to real Marxism, just like you're hearing the Communist Party advocate and bring back and revitalize Confucius, because society is getting so out of control with drugs and hedonism and undisciplined youth and all that kind of stuff,
		that they think that Confucius, who was the great class enemy, the feudal paragon, his thinking is being brought back because they need some kind of ethical basis, something to sort of beat the younger generation over the head with and say, here, you have to be righteous, you have to be moral, you have to be upstanding, you have to be humane.
		These are basic Confucian values.
		So this kind of internal struggle is clearly going on.
		And the hardliners, as they get more military power, as they become more professional, as the armies increase their training, as the reserve forces are developed, logistics are provided for, and they increase the number of submarines with nuclear capabilities, which is, to my mind, the most troubling aspect, the submarines with ICBMs, which they can kind of ramp up off our coast and threaten our major cities.
		As these things happen, there'll probably be less and less restraint on the military.
		And it only takes one general with a handful of troops to completely eliminate the current administration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's certainly true.
		And the current administration is getting quite old.
		So change is probably in the air in China.
		I'm hoping it goes the right way.
		And I'm very much aware that you think it's probably going to go the wrong way.
		Ralph, your book is out.
		I hope people rush to get it.
		And again, it's the Tao of Deception, right?
		Unorthodox Warfare in Historic and Modern China.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		Well, actually, I have a number of books out, depending on what your readers are interested in.
		The DAO of Spycraft is about spies.
		As you see, the publisher creates these titles, not me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Ralph, thank you for being a guest on Coast to Coast AM, and take care.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you, sir.
ralph sawyer ▲ ● ▼		It was a privilege.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		Unscreened.
		Open lines coming right up.
		Now, unscreened doesn't mean a license to say a bad word or a bad thing.
		And it also doesn't mean that it'll get on the air because I have a little button here I can press and I can erase the last seven or eight seconds of time.
		It's kind of like time travel, actually.
		So if you say something bad, it simply disappears as though it never happened.
unidentified		It's radio magic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we had one in the first hour who uttered a bad word and it just disappeared.
		At any rate, anything you want to talk about other than that is absolutely fair game.
		The more interesting you are, the more airtime you'll get.
		That's the way it works, and it'll work that way in just a moment.
		To the very best of my knowledge, there is nobody else In the U.S., doing a radio program and taking unscreened, a national radio program, taking unscreened open line calls.
		Anyone know of anybody?
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, this is William from Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, William.
unidentified		Is this open call tonight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is, William.
unidentified		Yeah, I wanted to talk about the guy you had on radio last night.
		This guy was talking about trying to cooperate with the aliens.
		There's some of them that maybe they, you know, want to help us out and stop atomic war and that kind of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what he said.
unidentified		Yeah, well, the problem is, see, I spent most of my life on steel slabs and being probed and having probes put in me and everything else.
unidentified		And I want to know how I can tell the good guys from the bad guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's actually a very good question.
		Dr. Jacobs is of the view that they may well be bad guys.
		I've thought a lot about it.
		I think that...
		I'm just going to say I don't know.
		I have no idea.
		Are they good guys or bad guys?
		I have no idea.
		And anybody who absolutely tells you they do, be wary of them.
		So I think it's very likely a mixture.
		One day we'll find out.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm fine.
unidentified		It's been years.
		I'm a fan for 30 years.
		Wow.
		I have green glowing light here over high over Reno.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		And I'm wondering if you've heard reports of that green glowing light from others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard just zillions of reports since we began the experiment last night.
unidentified		I don't know what it is.
unidentified		It's not clear because it is overcast here, but this glow has persisted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		We've got a lot of overcast here in the West right now.
		In fact, it's overcast where I am, so we could have picked a better day, I suppose, from that point of view for the experiment.
		But people have been actually seeing things through the overcast.
unidentified		I thought it might be the moon, but I've been following this, tracking this since your show began earlier tonight for three hours, in other words, and that glow persists, so it is not the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would unlikely be green from the moon anyway.
unidentified		Yeah, I don't know what it is, but I'm hoping some other folks will confirm my sighting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it moving or is it morphing in any way at all?
unidentified		It's stationary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stationary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A stationary green glow, huh?
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Over the Reno area.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that'll get lots of people out to take a look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, take care.
		So anybody else in the Reno area, noting what that gentleman's talking about, the number of reports of sightings that I've had is just astronomical.
		It's absolutely astronomical.
		So either the experiment worked or simply getting people out to look at the skies has a big effect.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		Ricky Toronto, 6.40 a.m.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I believe I have the theory of everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		I believe that the problem with this dimensional theory is that it is not inclusive of everything, including UFOs, ghosts, whatnot.
unidentified		The most common thing in the universe is blockability or resistance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm sorry, I missed that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The most common thing is what?
unidentified		Everything in the universe is subject to blocking or blockability.
		Let's take a box, a rectangular box of wood.
		You can hear out of that box, but you can't see in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		The dimensional theory, I would convert into particles that have yet to be discovered.
		So the particles that we have seen right now or are witnessed to right now are either visible to the microscopes that we have available right now.
		And the higher frequency particles have not yet been discovered, which may be, you know, God, UFOs, ghosts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you have the theory of everything solved, you should be able to tell us what these things are.
unidentified		I believe that it would be like a periodic table.
		You would have your elements listed, in which case they would be more or less vision, hearing, smell, touch, and so on.
		You know, up the ladder, up to the higher frequencies, which obviously I'm not going to be able to decipher or mention because I don't know myself, but this is just a working thesis here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		All right.
		Well, it doesn't sound like you've got actually the theory of everything quite nailed down yet, because somebody who had that would actually be able to tell us what all these things are that mystify us.
		It would answer everything.
		And according to Michio Kaku and others, it might be a formula no longer than your thumb.
		International line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
		Well, you would have been.
		Good morning on the wildcard line.
		You're on the air.
		Going once.
unidentified		Oh, I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good.
		Oh, good.
		Well, you're on the air.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Well, hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Well, I've got something really important to say about the Grays.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About the Grays?
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Well, they've been standing outside my room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You say somebody's standing outside your room now?
unidentified		Yeah, they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A gray.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
unidentified		And what scares me about it is it's been going on for A long time now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean something standing or nearby you?
unidentified		No, like outside my room, and they're standing out there right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you sound scared.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe you're a victim of our experiment.
		I hope not.
		But good luck to you, whatever the case is.
		Wildcard line, you're on air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello, Arta.
		This is Joe in LA.
		I spoke with you last weekend.
		I have a question about this China talk.
		I believe several decades ago, America has got such a hand in this that when you see everything on the shelf virtually made in China, I don't understand, I guess, the cause for concern.
		If it wasn't for us, I don't think that everything would be made in Japan or in China.
		And by that, I mean that if American companies hadn't invested so much in all of this being done over in China, I think that it obviously could have been done here.
		And for economics and whatever, it's done over there.
		So at any time, can we not pull the plug?
		Are we seriously concerned about them taking over economically?
		I mean, do they own these companies or are they not American?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a lot of it's just partnerships, Americans partnering with Chinese, as Ralph mentioned.
		And listen, a decade ago, everything said made in China.
		Remember that?
		Or I'm sorry, Japan.
		Remember?
unidentified		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I'm not sure I'd worry about it.
		I think that as somebody fastblasted me, you know, the pendulum will swing.
		And for a while, it's going to be made in China.
		And then eventually it's going to be made in Africa.
unidentified		I'll agree with that.
		All right.
		Thanks, Sarah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome.
		I think, you know, the markets go where the cheap labor is.
		Right now, that's in China.
		When that begins to get, you know, Ralph mentioned on the air, they're beginning to organize in China.
		Well, when they organize, they're going to, you know, they're going to want bigger wages, better working conditions, all the things that people, as they begin to get a few bucks in their pocket, always want.
		And when they do, will go to the next cheapest labor market.
		Wildcardline, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yes, Art.
		My question was, you talked to us several weeks ago about your interview with Malkai Martin, and he told you what the third secret was.
		My question was, how many secrets are there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I only know about the third secret, and he did impart to me some information that I absolutely swore I would keep to myself.
		And I guess I have to keep that.
		You know, if your word means anything, then you've got to keep it.
		So there are some things I know about the third secret.
		Not a lot.
		I don't know it all.
		But there are a few things that he mentioned to me in confidence.
		And I'm almost sorry that I ever even uttered the words that that had occurred because now, obviously, there's pressure on me to divulge what it was, and I can't do that.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, hello?
		Yes, sir.
		Yes.
		Yeah, this is one of your ancient callers from 19 years back.
		I've been trying to get a hold of you for 19 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My God.
unidentified		And my God, I finally got through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Now, I want to tell you, have you ever heard a call about somebody having an appliance that could be haunted?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A haunted appliance.
unidentified		I have a haunted toaster in my place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A toaster, yeah?
unidentified		Yes.
		It's a 45-year-old toaster handed down to my mom from a relative.
		And it's a toaster that comes on when it's unplugged, it will heat up.
		The knobs will turn slowly.
		You know, the heating knobs on the front?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's weird.
unidentified		I'm just wondering, is that ever had a call about that?
unidentified		Any plan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Never.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you're the first haunted toaster.
unidentified		I am the first haunted toaster.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the knobs turn by themselves without being plugged into the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It heats up and wants to toast.
unidentified		Or something that's not there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, that's pretty interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How frequently does it do this?
unidentified		Oh, I'll set it in the middle, like this little line.
		Two weeks later, I check it out.
		It's moved over to the right or to the left.
		And I live alone.
		Yeah, so nobody else can be doing it but me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but the part where it heats up without being plugged in.
unidentified		Oh, that's the odd part about it.
		Yeah, it has heated up without being plugged in.
		I know it's 45 years old, this toaster.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, it must have been made in America, huh?
unidentified		It's made in America, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Made in the USA, and that sucker just wants to toast even without power.
unidentified		Yeah, it beats China by a bunch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You buy a Chinese toaster, she never heats unless you plug her in.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		And that's one of the most many weird things that's happened to me in the course of my life.
		Other than, you know, your UFO story about the rectangular, the triangular UFO?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I had the same thing happen to me when I was seven and back in 1975.
		And that's one of the, I think it's an abduction story that happened to me and my sister.
		You know, I lost time for like a good 12 hours.
		You know, I'm here in Las Vegas, you know, and that's when the town wasn't very much incorporated, right?
		Within that large city.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think Las Vegas is now approaching 2 million, right?
unidentified		Oh, yeah, 2 million.
		I'm like, I'm over the hump from Prompt from you.
		You know, I drive out there to escape the madness of all the populace here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you get tired of it, send me your toaster, buddy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, hey, how's it going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's going fine.
unidentified		I had to make sure you were talking to me.
		Cool.
		I was just curious, Alien Ranch, I was thinking I wanted to take a vacation and I wanted to go there.
		Do they allow anybody to go there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My advice to you would be to send an email up there and ask.
unidentified		I was also wanting to ask Bob Bigelow is his name, I think.
		Yes.
		Is that right?
		Yes.
		Oh, you were talking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
		Wait a minute.
		You're talking about the Bigelow Ranch?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		They do not Invite the general public.
		In fact, they discourage the general public from coming anywhere near.
unidentified		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about James Gilliland's ranch.
unidentified		I was talking about both of them.
		So I wanted to go to the one that had the sightings.
		But then I was also wanting to know because I'm fascinated by Mr. Bigelow's thing with space stations or whatever that he's building.
		And I wanted to be a part of the project somehow, if that was at all possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you're going to want to listen.
		We're going to do an entire show with Bob Bigelow in the middle of March.
		In other words, very soon.
		And I'm holding out the best photographs.
		Bob Bigelow is going to put, ultimately, a hotel in space.
		This is a guy who's not fooling around.
		He's got one satellite orbiting Earth right now that he launched.
		He's got another satellite that is going to launch very shortly.
		And his ultimate plans call for putting a hotel in space.
		He's a serious man.
		Wildcard Line 3, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, Art.
unidentified		It's me, Tim from Los Angeles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Hi, I'd like to ask you a technical question.
		I'm going to be writing a book that's a ghost story.
		And I was just wondering, because you wrote so many books before, how many pages do I need per chap to make one chapter of a book?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there's no ironclad rules on that at all.
		My advice is just sit down and begin to write.
		And I mean, what kind of book do you want to what's it going to be?
unidentified		I have an eight-year-old ghost, and she lives with me, and she goes everywhere I go, and she's like a part of my life now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you prove it?
unidentified		Want to do an experiment?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm pretty open.
unidentified		Okay.
		I have a dividing rod.
		And you give, well, the ghost is named Martiko.
		Actually, her American name is Mary.
		And we play a game, and she tries to think what you're thinking.
		But do you give Marty permission to allow her to read your mind?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To read my mind.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure.
unidentified		Okay.
		Marty, you heard that, correct?
		Okay, think of a yes or no question.
		Don't tell me the question or don't tell me the answer, and I'll try to figure out if A yes or no question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to do better than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They've got those little black balls that you turn up the side down and you can get answers to yes or no, the Swami, you know.
unidentified		Right, but the thing is, you'll know the answer.
		I won't.
		But I'll tell you the answer if Monico is giving me the correct answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I refuse to participate in a yes or no type deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If Matico wants to actually read my mind on a random subject and tell me, and you can then tell me what it is I'm thinking about, we're talking about impressed.
unidentified		Oh, you want it that way, though?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can't do, huh?
unidentified		Yeah.
		I haven't learned how to really speak your psychically.
		I'm learning how.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, give me a call back when you get past yes or no, because as I mentioned, they have those little black balls that will do that for you.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		I was listening to your program, well, I guess it was last month, and you mentioned about you're watching Gray Anatomy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gray's Anatomy, yes.
unidentified		Right, and you saw that flash, you know, go across the sky?
		You saw it on the...
		Well, that was what I saw was Christmas Eve.
		Like, I called this in and told you, but the way you described it was much more, you know, was more like what I saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had it on a DVR.
unidentified		Right, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so I was able to go back and look at it frame by frame by frame, and it was a whiz-banger.
unidentified		Right, and it traveled from east to east.
unidentified		So I looked at the map, and I looked, my daughter said it's taped in Seattle when they do tape in that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Seattle is the setting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure if it's actually filmed in Seattle, but that's, you know, Seattle Grace is the hospital where it's supposedly all.
unidentified		Oh, okay, because I looked at the map and it was right along the line where I had seen it way over in the west, and that was in Michigan.
		And I was, you know, up north, and I just found this phenomenal.
		And I thought maybe it wasn't a falling star.
		But I just wondered if you found any more information on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No more, but I'm sure that other people have seen this.
		It was on Gray's Anatomy, and it went actually horizontally all the way across the sky.
		It was incredible, and it was very quick.
		So unless you had a way to rewind or go back in time with a DVR and take a good, careful look at it, you would have gone, hey, what was that?
		And then you'd have been on with the story and not another thought.
		But boy, it really was something.
		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I'm Art Bell.
		Here I am.
		Leslie in Seattle, Washington says, as Seattle does real art, I looked at my black car, and it's obvious.
		Wow, took samples.
		And it was so fine that it wafted from the razor blade.
		I dragged across the windshield.
		It's off-white, pinkish tan.
		Maybe St. Helens or what?
		Something weird going on in Seattle last night during the night.
		What could that be?
		We'll be right back.
		Unscreened open lines.
		Here we go.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		How are you doing tonight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Yeah, I've been listening to you since the beginning of time, I think.
		Something like that.
		But I wanted to call about that.
		I think it was at the top of the hour, the first or second caller you had there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		He was talking about the alien abductions and who can you tell the good guys from the bad guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Yeah, that type of thing.
		Well, I also suffer From abductions and that type of thing.
		And I've experienced a lot of what he has on there.
		And I'd like to elaborate on that a little bit if possible.
		And, you know, these aliens, they've been doing this since, well, you know, they talk about Roswell in the 1950s, that kind of thing, and so on and so forth.
		But this may be going on for hundreds of years or something like that.
		And what are we going to do now?
		Are we just going to accept this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to elaborate on whether they're good guys or bad guys?
unidentified		Yeah, that's kind of what I'm elaborating on.
		That guy that was talking last night.
		I've been listening a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can forget that guy.
		You're a personal experiencer, so you tell me your experience.
		Are they good guys or bad guys?
unidentified		Well, I've experienced grays is what I've experienced.
unidentified		And I've been on steel slabs, and I've been probed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Well, I think we heard from you just a little earlier.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yes, hello.
		Hello.
		Yes, my name is Robert, and I just thought I'd call, and I never mentioned this before.
		It's regarding I survived an exorcism.
		I was possessed, and I never disclosed it to anybody.
		And I thought maybe I'd call you to tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And now you're telling everybody?
unidentified		I'm telling everyone.
		Firstly, I'd like to let everybody know not to mess with the Wheezy boy because that's where it started.
		And I read multitudes of books, starting with the magic power of witchcraft from Santa Monica College of UCLA, and that was my secret.
		And yes, I used the dark forces to gain money, property, and prestige.
		And what happened was that I was let down, and I became possessed, and I found myself running up and down the streets fighting demons and hearing these voices.
		I was physically hurt, and I seen him in demonic and human form, walking through a wall with a mistress.
		He had a black robe.
		40-year-old Caucasian man with a goatee with his mistress in an eglige.
		They taught me how to, they forced me to position my fingers to shad to Satan.
		And I've seen him in demonic form twice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you said you were a subject of an exorcism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did that occur?
unidentified		Yes.
		Well, I was running up and down the streets.
		I had Mormons trying to pray for me, and family didn't know what to do with me.
		And got a hold of a Jesuit priest.
		I won't mention his name.
		I've never seen him after.
		And what was witness, the only witness was my father.
		Voices, demons fighting out of me, and levitation, the whole, just something out of the exorcism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So this Jesuit priest removed whatever it was.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		Father Chakor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
		Don't give me a name.
		You were just about to give me a name, so I stopped you.
		I appreciate the call, however.
		And exorcisms are very interesting, and they're still going on across America.
		Now, the fact that we don't have a current Father Malachi Martin or anybody like him doesn't mean that it's not going on.
		And it is going on all across America.
		In fact, all across the world.
		It's not just America.
		I've seen it all over the world.
		It's just kind of kept quiet.
		Father Martin was such an exception.
		We need to find another Father Martin.
		We need to know what's going on in the world with evil.
		And there's a lot going on.
		Father Martin certainly laid it out for us.
		What was he talking about?
		An 800% increase in evil in just his jurisdiction, his area in New York?
		Wow.
		Hello there.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, Art.
unidentified		This is Dan from Cincinnati.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Dan.
unidentified		I just wanted to bring up a prediction that Dr. Lewis Turry had brought up on George's show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What prediction was that?
unidentified		That there would be increased UFO sightings this year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		And I'm just wondering if this experiment that you're doing could be kind of the hand that pushes it.
unidentified		So I'm just wanting to make a request that you do this every weekend, this experiment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know that we need it every weekend.
		What we need is concrete proof that we, over the next, let's say, several days to a week, get a massive increase in sightings.
		That would be worth something.
unidentified		Yeah, definitely.
unidentified		Well, you're obviously going somewhere with it, so I want to see something happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I want to see something happen, too.
		Now, we don't know where we're going.
		I don't know how immediate it's going to be.
		In quite a number of the experiments, there was results within hours, sometimes within a couple of days.
		So I would suggest everybody watch the skies carefully.
		Wildcardline, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Arm.
unidentified		How's it going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just fine.
unidentified		Well, it's really an honor to speak with you.
		I wanted to tell you a little bit about an experience I had with remote viewing.
		I was listening to your show, and it was the first time I ever heard anything about remote viewing in my life, and it seemed really interesting.
		So I figured that I would give it a shot, and your guest host was saying that musicians are usually good with it.
		So I'd give it a shot, and I thought, well, what do I not know that I can verify using the internet?
		And I looked, I thought, well, I don't know what Art Bell looks like.
		And so I swear to your voice.
		And I thought, well, let me open my subconscious mind to images of what Art Bell might look like.
		And then an image came to mind.
		And I was, and I was just, it didn't really strike me as a face that matched your voice.
		And I thought, well, that couldn't be it.
		And I remember your guest was saying, you know, the conscious mind often rejects what the subconscious mind sees it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And you have to accept it.
		So I thought, well, let me actually take that image that was in my mind and look it up.
		And the first picture that came up was not only your face, but it was the exact same image that was flashed in my mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is bizarre.
		You know, this kind of thing works.
		What can you say?
		Remote viewing really does work.
		It just doesn't work all the time.
		And that's the problem with all these things that we talk about on Coast.
		They work.
		Or they really happen.
		Unfortunately, they don't happen in a scientific, repeatable, documentable way.
		And so scientists, of course, very much like the one we had on last weekend, simply reject the whole thing because they cannot prove it.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, Art.
		How are you?
		Good evening.
		Good evening.
		My name is Susan.
		I'm from Tahanga.
		Yes.
		And I had a couple comments that I wanted to make in lieu of a lot of the things that have been said tonight about trade and war and shadow people and everything else.
		I observe a lot as I walk through my world.
		And I notice, for the most part, I know that you have a vast listening audience that is open and their consciousness is susceptible to learning about the things that happen on your program.
		But there's a vast amount of people in the U.S. who look to me almost as if they're veiled, that they're hazed over.
		And I don't believe in coincidences.
		And I was thinking today about all the things from chemtrails to the things we talked about in the beginning of your show about the fish, the dead zones and everything else.
		And I wondered about the huge raise in autistic children and everything else.
		And it's very clear to me that our government, and I know you're not a conspiratist person and neither am I, but I started thinking about it and I really came to a conclusion that it is quite possible that something's going on because how is it that so much is going on in the world?
		And, you know, we hear about Anna Nicole Smith.
		We don't hear about with any kind of weight that we're about to go or thinking about going into war with Iran.
		We have China.
		We have this, we have that.
		It's almost like we're dummied down.
		And I wondered if anybody, any of the scientists are really looking at the real possibilities like HAARP, like chemtrails, that perhaps they really are connected and that there is a dumbing down of the population.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really do agree with you on this.
		I agree that people are walking around in a kind of a haze.
		And I guess some of it's due to the fact that they're hit with so much.
		My God, as she sort of read off a little litany of things.
		It's true.
		We're all walking around in kind of a haze.
		I feel it myself.
		I wonder how many of the rest of you feel it.
		Kind of a haze, because we're just getting bombarded with so much impossible stuff.
		Our climate is changing.
		Our oceans are having increasing dead spots.
		Bees are disappearing or dying.
		Fish may be gone in 50 years.
		These things are too big for us to absorb.
		And so it results in a kind of a haze.
		I understand exactly what she's saying.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		I just wanted to make a quick comment about the nature of the extraterrestrial, whether or not good or evil.
		Sure.
		I don't believe we can classify that into necessarily either good or evil.
		Humans aren't just good or evil.
		That's true.
		We need to think about it as, are they acting in our best interest or in their best interest?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree with that.
unidentified		That's all I had to say.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Thank you very much.
		You have a good night, too.
		No, I agree with that.
		Are they acting in our best interest or their best interest?
		And, you know, our inclination first is to say they're acting in their own best interest, probably.
		On the other side of the coin would be the theory that if they are advanced enough to get here from either another dimension or through actual space, which is even harder to imagine, our physicists say it can't be done.
		I don't know.
		But if they can get here, that means they are so far advanced that socially they should be quite advanced.
		But there's no guarantee of that.
		Let's go to East of the Rockies and say hello.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, Art.
		It's so good to talk to you.
		I haven't talked to you for over a year.
		So happy for you and Erin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I have one comment and a question.
		Linda Moulton Howe did a very good report the other day about cattle mutilations and about an incident that happened with a young boy on his farm.
		And I wish you could have asked the guest last night what he knows about cattle mutilations from the aliens.
		And then I came across a poster of the day after tomorrow.
		And I just collect them for my own, you know, personal thing.
		And I wondered if there's any way I could get a sticker with your autograph to put on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you happen to catch me out somewhere, I'd be happy to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But in terms of sending it to me, if I said yes to that, hun, I would get 10,000.
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, if you ever catch me out in public somewhere, I'm always happy to do that kind of thing for people.
		But I remember once I said yes to somebody on something like that, and my God, I think it was about $1,000 in postage that it cost me, and it came out of my own pocket.
		Literally, $1,000 in postage to, what the heck was it?
		There was something or another I said I'd autograph if somebody sent it to me, and boy, what a mistake that was.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		Hi.
		I have two issues.
		One is I saw a black triangle, and the other is I used to work for SRI, and I have an issue to deal with Major Ed Dames.
		Perhaps we should deal with the Black Triangle siding first, because what I saw with Major Ed Dames would blow your mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the Black Triangle?
unidentified		The Black Triangle?
unidentified		I live in Cascadero, California, that's in between San Luis Obispo and Pascal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know where you are.
unidentified		I was out there on my deck one day, and I have been really into this, and I saw it one day, and it was flashing lights.
		They flashed alternately.
		I wasn't messed up.
		I hadn't drank anything.
		I was just standing out on my deck smoking a cigarette, and this thing came in.
		It came from the south.
		I was facing south, and it hovered.
		It dropped down.
		The lights got really big.
		And then they went straight up, and then they zoomed off to the west, and it blew my mind.
		I see a lot of things.
		I'm near Camp Roberts.
		I'm near Vandenberg Air Force Base.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, welcome to the club.
		Many of us have seen this triangle.
		We know it's real.
unidentified		Now, what about Ed Dames?
unidentified		Do you remember you did one show where he was talking about some stuff he was aware of off the coast and it was messing with animal sea life?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do recall that, yes.
unidentified		You do recall that.
		I gave you a fast blast.
		He was talking about the Army, I believe at the time, major.
		I gave in the name of the major.
		It happened to be a female.
		And I have a real high security system on my computer.
		I have a Cisco firewall.
		I got a blast through.
		I fast blasted you the name of the major who happened to be a female.
		I'm not going to say it because I don't want to get in trouble again, but it totally blew up my computer system.
		It all but went up in smoke.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry to hear that.
		Well, I appreciate it, and I certainly appreciate the Black Triangle report.
		So many people now have seen them.
		And, of course, my sighting was not an ambiguous one.
		It was right there, right above me.
		And as I've said many times, if I'd had a rock and the inclination and my mouth wasn't on my chest, I probably could have thrown a rock at it.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		I was like the last caller on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn off your radio, please.
		I'll wait.
		Turn it off.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
unidentified		I was like the last caller on October 28th when he had Barbara Macbeth on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I was just wondering if you could talk about the magic of radio, because I love you to talk about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm from Baltimore.
unidentified		It's Rick from Baltimore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Rick.
		Well, I appreciate the call.
		And could I talk about the magic of radio?
		Yes, of course.
		Radio has been my entire life.
		Since I can recall, since my earliest recollections, outside of the crib, and I can actually recall being in the crib, I was taking things apart.
		I was interested in radio, how radio worked, how radio propagated.
		Then I became interested in how to transmit radio.
		And then, of course, 50 years went by, and here I am, the magic of radio.
		It's still as magical as ever.
		That we can send a signal from here to there, which now includes virtually everywhere with this program, is as magical today for me as it was the first day I picked something up.
		I was thinking about that the other day, so it's interesting he asked me to comment on that.
		Listen, that's a weekend, everybody.
		Tomorrow, George resumes weekday duties, and I will see you next weekend from the high desert.

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