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June 4, 2005 - Art Bell

02:29:40

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Hutchison John - The Hutchison Effect and UFOs

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	I want to thank all of those who greeted and whined and dined her and helped her out and so indeed a successful a docking I guess you would say in the boat world in Hilo, Hawaii.
	What an undertaking for a 72 year old lady.
	Just absolutely incredible.
	Something I would not do.
	My webcam shows yet another fire here in Pahrump two days ago.
	The photograph you see on my webcam is one taken by Jim, a friend of mine, who happened to be up here.
	We went to the scene and took photographs, hoping to keep others away.
	It didn't work.
	There were tons of people there.
	You can see the cars, the rubberneckers, but it was a serious fire and points to a serious issue here in the desert.
	And I'm going to say it again.
	We have had an extremely unusual weather year in the desert.
	We've had a great deal of water during the winter season.
	The weeds have grown high.
	The fire danger now extreme.
	And homeowners have got to get out all over the desert, not just Pahrump, but all over the desert and trim these weeds back.
	You may be saving your own house.
	So that's a picture of a yet another fire that got out of control.
	Fortunately, I don't think taking with it any structures, but trees and, of course, weeds driven by the wind, a very serious situation.
	Weather-wise, it has been a strange spring, and I suspect that there are those of you out there who could confirm that for me.
	Across the middle part of the U.S., there is the Visalia lightning map.
	You can go and monitor, as I do, on a daily basis, the lightning strikes across America.
	The number of lightning strikes, the density of the area encompassed.
	And as a matter of fact, if you look at the Visalia lightning map right now, you will see lightning virtually from the state of Texas straight up in a line, Uh, to Wisconsin, Michigan, that area.
	In other words, uh, traversing the entire central part of the U.S.
	I mean, just a line of vicious storms.
	Uh, the night before last, we monitored, uh, I happened to look up, uh, Sonora, Texas, I think it was.
	I was watching a line of thunderstorms crossing, a very big one, and I simply picked one town out, Uh, Sonora, Texas, and they had supercells, what they're calling supercells building, with tornadoes.
	Just before airtime tonight, I got the following, well Art, it's happening.
	Never before in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, have we been under a tornado watch and warning all day long.
	All my life, I was told this could never happen here.
	We're too close to the mountains.
	They were wrong.
	So, the radio is absolutely filled with static from the violent storms that are going on out across middle America.
	And they've been going on just about on a daily basis.
	And they're certainly, I think, more violent than any spring that I can remember.
	Just raging across the central part of the U.S.
	So it seems to me we are in the middle of some sort of change.
	What do you think?
	More in a moment.
	The last part of that commercial, do you think a human being and...
	Actually said all of that, that quickly?
	Or do you think that it was electronically perhaps altered?
	How would you like to... You know Americans are not going to like this.
	They're not going to like this one bit.
	But in Britain, they're going to perhaps have to begin paying for their driving by the mile.
	British motorists face paying a new charge for every single mile they drive.
	In a revolutionary and I think probably very unpopular scheme to be introduced within two years, drivers will pay according to when and how far they travel throughout the country's road network under proposals being developed by the government.
	Alistair Darling, what a darling, the Secretary of State for Transport, revealed that pilot areas will be selected in just 24 months time, as he made clear his determination to press ahead with the National Road Pricing Scheme.
	Each of Britain's 24 million vehicles would be tracked by satellite.
	If a variable pay-as-you-drive charge should replace the current road tax in an interview with The Independent on Sunday, Mr. Darling warned that unless action is taken now, he says, the country could face gridlock within just two decades.
	Official research suggests the national road pricing could increase the capability of Britain's network by as much as, say, 40% at just a single stroke, he said.
	The rapid uptake of satellite navigational technology in cars is helping to usher in the new pay-as-you-drive charge much sooner than they had hoped.
	People are going to hate this.
	So, in other words, if I'm getting this straight, and I am, Every single vehicle will be tracked by satellites.
	And kind of like the meter that sits beside your house or apartment and races around, adding up the amount of electricity you use, this little baby in your car would report to a satellite, which would then report to the government, which would then tax you for every single mile you drive.
	And of course if it turns out to be a gigantic revenue producer, The United States, you just know, is not going to be far behind.
	Can you imagine paying, how would you, would you go along with that?
	Having a satellite tracking device implanted in your car?
	I mean, we're talking about all of Great Britain now, and then the government tracking where you go, how many miles you go, and charging you per mile.
	World News.
	Hundreds of Iraqi and U.S.
	troops searched fields and farms Saturday for insurgents in their hideouts in an area south of Baghdad known for attacks, and the Marines said they discovered 50 weapons and ammunition caches and a huge underground bunker west of the capital fitted out with air conditioning, a kitchen, and showers.
	So apparently the insurgents don't have it so bad.
	Air-conditioned insurgency, only in 2005, huh?
	Three men who said they dropped off an Alabama teenager, this is a big story right now, at her hotel.
	About 18-year-old girl, beautiful girl, emerged as the most important lead in the honor student's disappearance on this Dutch Caribbean island, Aruba.
	According to police, Dutch troops, hundreds of volunteers scouring the coastline and beaches for six days, found not even a trace of Natalie Holloway, 18.
	A Pentagon report detailing incidents in which U.S.
	guards at Guantanamo Bay, a prison desecrated the Koran, is creating yet another, here we go again, another public relations challenge for our President.
	Two weeks ago, the White House was thrown on the defensive by a now-retracted Newsweek report alleging that U.S.
	interrogators at the detention center for alleged terrorists in Cuba had flushed a Koran down the toilet.
	A car plunged off a bridge early Saturday, burst into flames, killing five men in suburban Milwaukee.
	The car was traveling south on Interstate 794 about 3 in the morning, didn't stop at the end of the freeway, which is an off-ramp to Layton Avenue.
	According to a police department news release, the car went across late an avenue, smashed through a cement barrier, and then a fence on a bridge, and fell 40 feet to the gravel road below, being constructed as an extension to the interstate.
	The car burst into flames.
	Singer Rod Stewart, you heard about this, has filed for divorce from actress Rachel Hunter, citing, of course, irreconcilable differences.
	Hunter, 35, and the veteran British rocker were married in 1990 but split in 99.
	Court documents filed Thursday's show.
	Hunter originally filed for divorce in 2003, but later withdrew her request for unspecified reasons.
	Now, the next story you're going to be able to go to coasttocoastam.com and read about it yourself, but you just had to know I would be all over this story.
	It's from The Guardian, and I think it's one of the most exciting things, short of going to the moon, That the world has, I say the world, has ever undertaken to do.
	Japanese scientists are to explore the center of the earth.
	Now right there, you know you've got me.
	I've been a center of the earth kind of guy for a long time, dying to know what's down there, and I don't think they've really quite got it right.
	You know, they think it's going to be very hot.
	Well, we'll see.
	Using a giant drill ship launched next month, the researchers aim to be the very first to punch a hole into the rocky crust that covers our planet and to reach the mantle below.
	Now, if you look carefully on the Coast to Coast AM site, you'll see a sort of a pie or ball, if you will, breakaway example of what they're going to be doing.
	The team wants to retrieve samples from the mantle six miles down to learn more about what triggers undersea earthquakes.
	You know, like the one off Sumatra, for example, that caused the Boxing Day tsunami.
	They hope to study the deep rocks and the mud for records of past climate change.
	And to see if the deepest regions of the Earth could, perhaps, harbor life.
	Ashiko Taira, Director General of the Center for Deep Earth Exploration in Yokohama near Tokyo, said, quote, One of the main purposes of doing this is finding deep bacteria within the ocean crust and the upper mantle.
	We believe that there has to be life.
	It's the same mission as searching for life on Mars.
	Rocks in the upper mantle produce compounds essential for life when they react with seawater.
	This is a system which we believe created early life.
	There may be a chance that we can catch the origin of life still taking place today.
	The 57,000 pound, 500 ton drill ship, sounds like science fiction, right?
	Is being prepared in the southern port of Nagasaki now.
	Two-thirds the length of the Titanic.
	It is fitted with technology borrowed from the oil industry, but of course it will allow it to bore through 7,000 meters of crust below the seabed while floating in 2,500 meters of water requiring a drill, a drill pipe 25 times the height of the Empire State Building.
	The deepest hole drilled through the seabed thus far has reached about 2,111 meters.
	After final sea trials this year, the scientists will set sail for the deep Pacific where the Earth's crust is thinnest.
	Drilling is expected to begin next year.
	It could take more than a year to drive through miles of crust and reach the mantle, so the ship is fitted with six rotating thrusters, controlled, get this folks, by GPS satellites, to keep it directly over the hole.
	The drill is surrounded by a sleeve that contains a shock-absorbing chemical mud and a blowout valve, well-protected should the team strike, say, oil or a super-heated amount of rock in the crust.
	The project is part of an international effort called the Integrated Ocean Drilling Program, which also involves the U.S.
	and Europe.
	Cinichi Kormato, one of the Yokohama team, said that Chiiki's main objective is to retrieve mantle samples for analysis.
	Quote, humans have brought back lunar rocks to understand the universe, yet we have never reached the mantle, which accounts for most of Earth.
	Previously undiscovered bacteria that can survive the anticipated 100 degree centigrade temperatures of the upper mantle, we'll see, right?
	Could be useful on the surface.
	Heat-proof enzymes isolated from bugs brought back by earlier Japanese drill missions are now used, for example, in washing powders.
	Cores of rock and sediment from the so-called earthquake nest, where the mantle meets the crust, is that like where the rubber meets the road?
	Could also help geologists understand seismic events and perhaps give more warning.
	We can estimate how frequently marine sliding or earthquakes occur.
	From learning the history of Earth, but we still don't know when they will occur in the future, we take cores to better understand the mechanisms involved.
	Sensors placed in the borehole could detect changes in strain, tilt, and pressure in the ground miles below the surface.
	That'll be a great advantage in giving us a few hours or days warning before something Really bad happens.
	Current warning systems in Japan only warn us 10 minutes before a large earthquake strikes.
	We need real-time data from the exact point.
	So, they're going to drill into the core of the middle of our Earth.
	And, oh, I wonder about all kinds of things.
	I wonder, for example, if it's really what we think it is down there.
	I don't think... we have a clue, we have ideas, but we don't really know because we've never been there and we don't really have anything that'll read that far down and tell us very much about what's really down there.
	Oh, we have ground penetrating this and that, but not that far.
	I mean, this is really going down into the middle of the earth.
	I think it's so exciting, and I don't know why.
	I kind of wonder about that.
	I've always been absolutely fascinated, not as much with what's above us, although going to the moon and Mars, all of that, very exciting, but we don't know what's below us, what we walk around on all the time.
	Could there be a lost world Could there be life?
	Well, yes, that's probable.
	There probably is life, maybe beyond what we can even imagine, beyond what we can even guess at.
	Who's to say?
	Here's a headline for you.
	Snowfall in Somalia reported.
	You don't see this every day.
	The first snowfall ever on this part of the world has claimed one life and caused extensive damage to properties.
	The northeastern part of Somalia has never awakened and found snowfall.
	They had storms with high winds, homes were destroyed, and it left a blanket of snow on
	the ground and people in Somalia have never, ever experienced snow, ever.
	Floods killed people, forced rivers to overflow their banks in almost all parts of the country.
	Many cities from the north to the central portion were affected badly by heavy clouds,
	rains, floods.
	Many people were killed, thousands of livestock washed away by this, their word, strange weather.
	The country is still struggling to recover from last month's killer weather.
	With no effective central government, Somalia does not have weather prediction or climate monitoring systems in place at all.
	Somalians think this unusual weather and last night's previously unheard of snowfall are part of the global warming phenomena.
	They don't know, but that's what they think.
	How many of you think that?
	I'm telling you right now, you have to look no further In the center of our own country.
	Now, yes, we have always had violent weather in the spring.
	That's nothing new.
	What is new is the amount of the violent weather we're having.
	And I'm telling you, monitor it for yourself.
	Go to the Visalia Weather or Lightning Map page, and there you can see the density, the frequency, The violence of the amount of lightning that we're getting, and all this spring, all across America, it has been absolutely unprecedented, in my opinion.
	I watch it day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month, and year-to-year.
	I watch it very carefully, because it affects our radio communication, obviously.
	The more lightning going on, even a thousand, two thousand miles away, the more affected radio communications is.
	And lightning is an electromagnetic pulse that travels through the ionosphere, very much like radio waves.
	So, when there's a whole lot of lightning, we have a whole lot of static on the radio.
	And believe me, right now we have a whole lot of static on the radio, so I'm watching this entire spring out across the central U.S.
	very carefully, and I would guess if I were to ask some of my audience out there, they would tell me they've seen some pretty wild weather out across Texas, Oklahoma, all the usual locations, as well as a lot of locations that are not so usual.
	And in the usual locations, It's been considerably more violent than usual.
	Good morning across this great land...
	First time caller line, you are on the air.
	Hi.
	Good morning.
	I love the show.
	Thank you.
	I have a question about the universe.
	It's a theory of mine.
	I don't think it's just unique to me.
	I was wondering if maybe you could shed some light if there was any other research done on it.
	But you know how the universe is infinitely large and it's supposed to be infinitely small?
	Is it possible that it's just repeating itself?
	That the atoms make up planets and planets make up something larger?
	That makes up something even larger, and that would go on infinitely?
	Do you understand my question?
	Yes, I do.
	And yes, of course, it is possible.
	They don't have the answer, and I guess that makes your theory as good as any.
	Well, do you know of anyone that's done any research on that?
	Well, I mean, people like Brian Greene that I had on last week, for example, that's what they do.
	But they are theoretical physicists, right?
	Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist, which means it is theory at this point.
	So we don't know the answer to all of that.
	You could be right.
	Okay, but there's no way to find out for sure, right?
	Not at this point, sir.
	Not that I'm aware of.
	I mean, we'd all like to know.
	I mean, that is indeed what they're searching for.
	I believe they call it the theory of everything, right?
	I keep wondering what impact there would be, and I ask the most brilliant minds around, and they say, well, non-immediate.
	We would simply know the theory of everything, how it all began.
	That would not necessarily change the price of gas on the corner.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning.
	Just a quick weather update for me here in western New York.
	Virtually no severe thunderstorms yet this season, and it's to the point where the local meteorologists are commenting on it.
	You will see that what's happening is places that normally get them are not.
	Places like up in Canada, for example, they're not used to being under the threat of tornadoes.
	So all of this is shifting.
	I find it very surprising because usually by this time we're at June 5th and we've had actually very few thunderstorms in the area and as I said it's to the point now where the local meteorologists are actually making a note of it.
	Yeah, what's wrong?
	We haven't had rain, and now they're actually talking about we need rain.
	The farmer's fields are dust at this point.
	On the other hand, I live roughly 20 miles from Death Valley, sir, and you know, that's famous for not having a whole lot of rain, but this year we were inundated.
	That's what I'm saying.
	Things are sort of shifting.
	Thank you, Art.
	Well, you're very welcome, sir, and we should all watch it very carefully.
	I know we're frogs in water that is slowly warming to a boil, and it's very difficult to see what actually is going on around us, but indeed it is.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Hello.
	This is Dave from College Station, Texas.
	Yes, sir.
	And I had a couple of things.
	One was on the weather, another was on the fuel situation.
	Sure.
	On the weather, one has to Take all the information and put it together in order to form a practical theory.
	And one piece of information that most people don't know about, because it's fairly recent, is there is a man who started the science of quantum algebra.
	I believe his name is Dr. Days.
	He's a Russian.
	Yes.
	And he did a study on when the universe was most ordered.
	Which would tend to, you know, because it's been decaying ever since, according to the laws of entropy, the second law of thermodynamics, things naturally decay.
	Yes.
	And he went backwards in time, and he did his calculations, and submitted it to, I believe it was the National Mathematical Association, or something like that.
	And his conclusions, you know, are verified by the, you know, calculations, that the universe had its most ordered state 6,000, some odd years ago.
	Which corresponds virtually identical to the Bible.
	He was an atheist, and he's now a Christian.
	And, uh, the Academy sent the, you know, uh, equations back to him, said, rework it.
	Didn't make any statement.
	He reworked it, said, I can't change it, you know.
	And so it's accepted as it is, but it, you know, compounds many people.
	What that means... Well, uh, sir, do you believe that the world is only 6,000 years old?
	I believe it's quite probable because of the evidence.
	I could not disagree with you more.
	The evidence is exactly the opposite.
	Well, there are skeletons inside of coal mines.
	Human skeletons.
	Thousands of feet below the surface.
	They've found man-made tools and pens.
	You know, when they were digging the mines by hand, they found a lot of this stuff.
	There's actually a cave.
	I believe it's in Pennsylvania, but I'm not certain.
	In the late 1800s, it's About 50 feet tall, inside 1,200 feet down, in a coal mine, and in the roof of it are human skeletons.
	Proving?
	Proving that man was there underneath this coal when it was formed, and it wasn't formed, you know, millions of years ago, according to that.
	So... But in any event, what this was leading up to, if this is the case, if the Earth is fairly young and the ice has to be very young, and has been melting ever since it deposited, which would have been probably about Noah's Flood, And as it melts, you get more humidity surrounding the remaining ice, and that humidity zaps the cold out and transfers it to the warm and mixes them together and melts it out.
	It's like an ice cube.
	It looks pretty big for a long time, and when it gets to a certain size, it just disappears, you know, before your eyes.
	All right.
	I appreciate it, but I think the Earth is far older.
	Man is far older than 6,000 years.
	And I think the evidence, academically, is simply absolutely overwhelming.
	Absolutely overwhelming.
	I don't think that it's necessary that man necessarily interpret the Bible in such a literal fashion and demand that it simply cannot be any older than 6,000 years.
	Not when the scientific evidence is so compelling that it's far, far older than that, and so are we.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Warren.
	How you doing?
	I'm doing all right, sir.
	Where are you in a truck?
	I'm up here in lovely New York.
	Lovely New York, okay.
	Yeah.
	Hey, I wanted to mention I heard on the Open Road Channel on my XM radio that the states were fixing on doing the road tax for cars here in the states.
	They're saying legislation-wise they're trying to get that going over here now.
	I believe it.
	They do it for us in the trucks.
	You know, we pay our fuel road tax out here.
	And so they're making it a point for people to call their representatives and voice their opinions as to whether or not they should go ahead and do the road tax.
	Well, I'll give you an opinion right now.
	Hell no, they ought not do that.
	Americans are going to... I would be very upset.
	Not that I do a very great deal of travel, but when I do, I don't want some satellite tracking me and then charging me accordingly.
	Do you?
	So, not only no, but hell no.
	However, I'm sure this is the way the world is headed.
	Our children will know a very different world indeed.
	Well, Cardline, you're on the air.
	No, you're not.
	East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hello, this is for the East.
	Yes.
	Hi Art.
	Hello.
	I wondered if about a week ago or two weeks ago we weren't under a solar storm because of how my dish network was reacting.
	Well the answer is we have been in and out of solar storms for about the last two weeks, ma'am.
	I could tell by my satellite.
	Oh wait, I didn't know.
	Now you do.
	Yes, thank you.
	All right, take care.
	As a matter of fact, we had a period of time where the KPN index went all the way up to 9 and the auroral level up to 10, which means that even in the far southern latitudes, the skies have been turning strange colors as our magnetic field is assaulted At a time in the 11-year sunspot cycle when it ought not be so assaulted.
	But then again, strange days, eh?
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hey, Art.
	Hello.
	Um, I have a theory about, uh, you know those, that, uh, Voyager spacecraft?
	Yes.
	Flying out there.
	Um, I was playing with my Windows Media Player and I went to cursor, uh, And I accidentally hit in the middle of the screen, and I moved the whole window.
	And I remembered it was Einstein or Velikovsky who said that the planets revolve around the Sun like in a groove, like in a phonograph player.
	Sort of, yes.
	And those satellites are, well, like they're outside the window, and when the Sun had those That's an interesting theory.
	I don't know that it has any substance, as in scientific backing, but it's an interesting theory.
	and took all the planets with it.
	That's an interesting theory.
	I don't know that it has any substance, as in scientific backing,
	but it's an interesting theory.
	In other words, the planets are attached gravitationally to the Sun,
	which is certainly true, and the Sun actually moved, or was propelled in effect,
	the cronal discharges.
	That's part of it I have some doubt about.
	I don't think that has occurred.
	Otherwise, his theory could conceivably be sound, because as goes the sun, so would go the planets that are magnetically attracted to it.
	So, interesting stuff.
	First time caller online, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi Eric, this is Tim in Seattle.
	Yes.
	I just wanted to touch base.
	I had a friend in the, she's in the Air Force, she's an officer in the Air Force, and she had talked about a couple years ago about the Chinese plan to eventually, I guess it was a plan they came up with in the 70s, on a 50 year schedule, to commence North America, forcibly.
	And because of the natural resources, they're going to be running out.
	We don't have that many natural resources.
	The Canadians do.
	Well, let them take Canada, then.
	I just wondered if you'd heard anything about that, or if there would be any discussion about that.
	None that I'm aware of.
	And I think that we would be very upset if the Chinese tried to take over here.
	Probably so.
	All right, that's all I had, thanks.
	I mean, short of the economic takeover, they've already accomplished.
	When you walk into a lot of, I'll leave them unnamed stores, why, it's nearly all Chinese, isn't it?
	What's going on in China is fascinating in more than one way economically, and from an industrial point of view, oh, they are just absolutely a monster.
	Well, Cardline, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Hi, where are you?
	Miami, Florida.
	Miami!
	All right.
	And your first name?
	Oh, Brian.
	Brian.
	All right, Brian.
	Well, I was kind of wondering, because I was listening to Brian Greene, and my brother just sent me the book like four days before he was on the air, so I just considered it fake.
	Brilliant man.
	Yeah, he is.
	And I was just wondering about his time travel theory.
	You know what?
	I was, in listening to the rebroadcast earlier tonight, I was just thinking that perhaps ghosts could be linked to this in a certain way, because if our DNA is linked temporally, somehow, perhaps maybe traveling back in time is actually just us going back and seeing a shadow of something that has occurred either before or something that has already occurred in the future, and perhaps, you know, maybe we are either a shadow person or a ghost or something
	That transforms us into a different dimension.
	I would suppose if the multiple dimension theory is correct that we could appear to another dimensional reality as a shadow or just something seen quickly in the corner of the eye and only occasionally at that.
	I suppose so.
	But we wouldn't be actually traveling.
	What we would be doing was, instead of folding space like they were looking for through wormholes, we'd actually simply be folding time and bringing time to us.
	Which is why we'd stay in the same dimension, yet the time would be brought to us, which would allow us to see something, yet not really interact with it.
	Fascinating.
	Well, could be.
	He was certainly a fascinating guest, and he accounted for a very strange dream.
	Really a strange dream that I had this week.
	I had a dream that, you may recall, Brian described what the end of the world might be like if we were approaching a black hole.
	And what I asked Professor Green was what we would actually begin to notice on Earth as we approached the event horizon.
	You know, if Earth were hurtling its way toward a black hole, or the black hole toward Earth, I guess it wouldn't matter, would it, end result?
	And he described it, and my dream was pretty odd indeed.
	I remember the world around me beginning to virtually dissolve.
	I remember everything metallic, everything magnetic.
	Being drawn up, hitting roofs, and simply like some giant magnet in the sky was drawing it up.
	And then, eventually, in my dream, biological entities began to stretch out, like my cat Comet.
	I recall in the dream seeing my cat Comet.
	Stretching out, you know, that fur getting longer and longer.
	It was really pretty gory and evil in a way.
	It was the end of the world and everything was being affected by this black hole, at that point in my dream, involving regular organisms, like, you know, human and animal organisms.
	And it was bizarre, and I think I have.
	I think I have Brian Greene to thank for that dream.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, yes.
	I'd like to speak to Art, please.
	That would be me.
	Oh, wow.
	Good evening, Art.
	How are you, sir?
	Good evening.
	We don't screen call, so you just ploom, go on the air.
	That's great.
	I like that approach.
	Me too.
	I have a question for you.
	Maybe you can straighten this out for me.
	Perhaps.
	With this massive, massive exportation of oil products to China, I'm curious, do these people not have any oil reserves?
	They don't have the technology to get it?
	Can you fill me in on that, maybe?
	Well, I really can't.
	I'm not an expert in the area.
	I don't believe that China has many natural reserves.
	I know they've got their eye On the Spratly Islands, which are thought to have some reserves, and they're sending quite a bit of their military machinery into that area to sort of claim dominion over it.
	But in terms of mainland China, I don't think they've got great oil reserves, no.
	Oh, okay.
	well i was really getting a little frustrated we were having a conversation
	the other day that the price our gasoline is getting
	today in five years at their current rate of consumption we're
	going to be paying an enormous amount for a tank of gas and i thought for pity's sakes why doesn't
	exxon or somebody go over there and develop what they've got
	instead of shipping everything from here over there well there are quite a few oil reserves in russia
	And I know the major oil companies are, I believe, pursuing those.
	But again, I don't think China has much.
	So they're going to have to, and they are in fact now, importing large amounts of oil.
	And the oil market in the world is exactly that, a world oil market.
	So they bid up the price.
	Uh, because they want it, and they've got the money to pay for it, since they've sold American consumers so much, and so we're now in competition for that same oil.
	It's a dirty, rotten shame.
	Okay, well thanks a million, Art.
	Have a great evening.
	One last thing, sir.
	Yes?
	As obviously you are a driver, how would you feel about having a little transponder in your car that went to a satellite and reported to the government the number of miles you drive every week, every year, and then charged you appropriately?
	Well, actually, that would rub me the wrong way.
	However, technology already exists, and I'm not so sure it's not already in automobiles.
	Some of the effects produced include levitation of heavy objects.
	That's very non-trivial.
	Metal samples turned transparent.
	Also non-trivial, metals turned into jelly and the spontaneous fracturing of metals.
	The Hutchinson effect has been well documented both on film and videotape and has been witnessed many times by numerous credentialed scientists and engineers.
	His findings have been televised in the U.S., Japan, and Canada.
	They've also piqued the interest from electrical engineering aircraft companies, the Canadian Department of Defense, and the military.
	Some have said John Hutchinson.
	Well, you know, there's a great controversy surrounding him.
	From those who believe he walks in the shoes of Tesla, to those who believe that it's not repeatable, it's not good science.
	He has his critics.
	And now, also this evening, David Sirita.
	David Sirita's first aspiration in life was to become an astronaut.
	In 1968, David and a friend witnessed a UFO along with hundreds of other people at the same time.
	After the experience, David grew up as a UFO enthusiast, never living in doubt of the phenomena that has swept the world since Roswell in 1947.
	His interest in space, religion, philosophy, astronomy, and science led him on his career in related fields.
	He's worked deeply in high technology.
	On environmental and humanitarian issues and as a professional photographer for 20 years.
	He studied world religion, science, physics and the paranormal for 25 years.
	In a moment, John Hutchinson and David Sirita.
	Stay right there.
	I'm sure before this night is over these two are going to solve the world's
	UFO phenomena question.
	John Hutchison and David Sirita.
	John, welcome to the program.
	Thank you, Art.
	It's a real honor to be on your program.
	An honor to have you.
	And David?
	Good to hear your voice again, Art, and all that great music you play.
	All right, gentlemen.
	John, I think that I would like to begin with you.
	When you are scheduled to be on the air, I get a raft of emails, some of it extremely, extremely critical of you, and others thinking that, as I mentioned during the opening, that you walk in the shoes virtually of Tesla.
	What about all this controversy, John?
	We're going to cover the Hutchison Effect, to sort of bring people who don't know about it up to date, but I mean, with regard to the amount of controversy about you personally, what do you have to say?
	Well, I know that it's quite controversial.
	I tend to... The main contacts I do have seem to be from the military-industrial complex.
	Mostly from the United States government and from NASA.
	However, I do get occasional emails myself.
	Oh, John, you're nothing but basically a crackpot, blah, blah, blah, kind of thing, but everybody's entitled to their opinion.
	Yes, and I'm sure in Tesla's time that he received similar criticism.
	You know, a total, absolute crackpot.
	But we don't think of him that way these days, do we?
	No, we don't.
	And you have discovered a number of things experimentally, right?
	That's right.
	Very quickly, John, what the heck is the Hutchison effect?
	What is it really?
	In a nutshell?
	Sure.
	I'll try my best.
	It's using a lot of RF frequencies, electrostatic energy, high voltage types of effect, and it seems to form at a distance away from the operating apparatus To create a known... There's been papers written up on this by Andrew Sakharov and Rene Louis Vallee.
	It causes a sort of interdimensional shift.
	You're now believing it's an interdimensional shift.
	Please back up for me.
	You said RF fields, right?
	That's right.
	How big are these fields?
	How strong?
	I used actually a lot of dummy loads to lower it down, but 450 kilohertz at roughly I would say just under 500 watts, but I take a dummy load and bleed a lot of that off.
	All right.
	All right.
	So you're not using all of it.
	Some of it goes to a dummy load, but it's way down low.
	450 kilohertz.
	That'd be down below the lowest AM broadcast station.
	Yes, basically that.
	And then I go up to about 1750, up to 14 megahertz.
	1750 up to 14 megahertz.
	Then they go and work in the 20 centimeter wavelength.
	OK, so you have RF fields, and then you mentioned electrostatic as well, right?
	Oh, that's right.
	I run that to about, oh, roughly half a million electron volts.
	A half a million?
	Mm-hmm.
	And that sort of bleeds off the main terminal head and collects onto round spheres.
	This energy is produced by a Van de Graaff generator, the thing you kind of put your hand on, your hair stands up on end.
	That's right, yes, uh-huh.
	I'm trying to explain so the audience can understand a bit there.
	And this bleeds off and fills up all these spheres full of energy, electrostatic energy.
	Are these RF fields static or rotating or what?
	I use RF modulation.
	RF modulation, okay.
	Saw II, sometimes CW.
	Okay, thing is, John, it seems to me that what you're doing here is exactly what was described, or so very close to what was described, in the Philadelphia Experiment.
	Well, that's been brought to my attention ever since I stumbled into this effect.
	They suggested I fine-tune the equipment.
	That I get the exact things happening, and indeed it seems that... You are?
	Yes.
	All right, now some of the things claimed, John, are that you disintegrated, or made invisible, metal.
	That was a discovery by the Canadian D&D doctor... Is it all right to mention names?
	It is.
	Oh, okay, Dr. Lauren A. Kuhn.
	of the f ti the director of scientific technical intelligence analyzed
	patience on certain frames on the old super eight millimeter film
	had transparent metal objects we can see through them evil behind them which was exactly
	what the navy uh... allegedly was trying to do at the philadelphia naval yards
	They were trying, and for good reason of course, our shipping was being sunk on a regular basis.
	So we had an extreme interest in making ships invisible.
	And I've, you know, I've had people technically describe to me what actually was done with the Philadelphia experiment.
	And it's virtually a version of what you just explained as the Hutchinson Effect.
	Now, how did you stumble into this, John?
	What were you working on that suddenly turned into something else?
	Well, Art, I've always had a fantastic interest in naval electronics and Tesla machinery.
	Basically, what I love to do is study the works of the old-timers.
	And all the research they did.
	So I got inspired and I had a lot of time on my hands during the 1970s to work on replicating a lot of the Tesla's machines and also some of the older radio fellows, like Hertz and them guys, putting together this huge conglomeration of high voltage equipment.
	So what I would do, basically, I'd turn out all the lights so I could actually watch all the corona effects and sparks coming from the different machines.
	But what were you trying to achieve, or what did you think you would achieve?
	I mean, you're fooling around with a lot of RF and certainly a great deal of electrostatic charge.
	What did you think was going to happen?
	What were you trying to do?
	Well, to be honest, Art, I was just having a lot of fun.
	And I'm not kidding.
	And the effects started to happen.
	And I honestly didn't think anything of them.
	What was the first anomalous effect that you noted, John?
	It was a large chunk of bake... bake light, about an inch thick.
	Roughly eight by six, which flipped over and hit a counter.
	Made a large bang, and I turned on all the lights, and thought, well, that's kind of interesting.
	Then, later on, when the lights were on, and the equipment running, I saw a piece of the metal flying across the room.
	I honestly didn't think anything... I didn't think it was important.
	I thought, well, maybe it's a high-tension electrostatic system type.
	But then, word leaked out And people started to come around taking photographs.
	So there are many photographs and quite a bit of old footage, I guess, of these things that you claim are true.
	Disappearing metal, disintegration, levitation, things floating in the air, that kind of thing?
	Basically, tons of that stuff.
	And the folks would come around and they would try to explain to me that this is important, John.
	You shouldn't throw out the metal samples in the garbage, as Alex Pissarro Went out into the garbage can and pulled out these metal samples.
	I said, I can't use them on my lathe.
	But, John, this is very important, what you're doing.
	So I said, OK, I mean, gee, you know, I'm not a scientist.
	I failed, you know, never made the grade 10.
	But nevertheless, groups started to come around, and in those days they used 8 millimeter film.
	I'm certainly well aware that, you know, all of this went on, and people did come and look at it and study it.
	David, I'm not sure why you're here tonight with John.
	I guess as kind of support, my guess would be you've investigated what John has done.
	Have you looked into it carefully?
	Yeah, I've met John, been to his lab, and where we connected is when I started analyzing the NASA UFO videos and a lot of UFO video, and noticed that probably the secret to their propulsion systems is that you could You can clearly see these waves of what appear to be electromagnetic energy strobing around the craft.
	Right.
	And because, for example, with infrared cameras in space, the background of space is very cold, and when an electromagnetic wave moves or strobes through the energy in space, the subatomic particles in space, you get friction and you get a heat signature, so you can actually see the waves.
	Because of my background and working for nuclear physicists, I could translate those waves, and they told me what they were doing.
	And then, when I found John Hutchison was doing the same thing with steel, And causing it to levitate, it was like Eureka!
	Oh my God, that's the connection!
	So you believe that the technology, or something close to the technology of what's called the Hutchison Effect, is what's used to drive some of these crafts that we're talking about?
	Yeah, I mean, how... We already know that, you know, Einstein's Law tells us, and it's been tested, That matter or mass in its current state cannot attain the speed of light because of the increased mass law.
	The faster you go... That's right.
	...inertia pushes on you, you get heavier and heavier and heavier, and pretty soon, you're so heavy that the amount of energy required to go a millimeter faster eventually equals the entire energy of the whole universe, just to move at 99.99% the speed of light.
	So, matter in its current state cannot attain the speed of light or go beyond, so that is obviously not how the ETs are These UFO craft are working, but if you transform mass, and you, what I've coined the term, reduce the mass-gravity effect by wave transformation, and turn steel into, essentially, it resembles light, or photonic energy.
	You're reducing the mass-gravity effect down to zero, and once it's near zero, you can do the speed of light on tiny amounts of energy.
	Well, you could almost call that a transporter, then, as easily as a spacecraft, right?
	It's sort of a transporter effect, isn't it?
	Breaking down matter, or changing matter, into some different form that can then travel faster than light.
	Yeah, exactly, and I have spent a great deal of time looking at quantum physics models from the atom and smaller, and studying every physics paper I can get my hand on to find out exactly how that can happen.
	I've been lecturing around the country last summer in Denver.
	I lectured, you know, at the MUFON conference.
	And, lo and behold, at these conferences, you've got NASA engineers, U.S.
	Army physicists, all taking down notes.
	And I meet these guys, and they approached me after, and they said, you know, will you write us a full, detailed physics paper on your theory and how these craft are reducing their mass-gravity effect?
	And I wrote that paper, and I actually sent John Hutchison a copy.
	After he read it, he said, well, we've got to go on the show together with Art Bell, because there's a connection here.
	And so that's how all of this transpired.
	You just happened to send a copy of this theory to John.
	Yes, John?
	Yes, he did.
	It was a good paper.
	It's a well-written presentation.
	All right.
	John, in your opinion, does his theory conform, do you believe, to what it is you've observed in the effect?
	Yes, it really closely follows it.
	I found it actually a very interesting paper, and I was reflecting when I was reading it, I was reflecting the aerospace firm's ideas of putting around a paroidal shaper on the lab.
	They had ideas that they could focus the energy.
	Like, I'm very visual when it comes to this kind of thing.
	And while reading the documentation, I was reflecting back.
	I always seem to do that at different times in history.
	Where McDonnell Douglas Aerospace had ideas of getting major funding and putting the lab into an environment with a large toroid around it.
	With a large toroid doing what?
	What do you think that would mean?
	Well, the main thing with the lab there, Art, is that I can turn everything on.
	The effects seem to happen up to 300 feet away.
	Alright, let's back up a little bit.
	Remember I mentioned controversy at the beginning of the program.
	Part of the controversy is that seemingly or many times this effect can't be or seemingly cannot be reproduced on simple demand each and every time.
	Science loves things that can be repeated and demonstrated and proven and occasionally or sometimes the Hutchison effect simply does not occur, right?
	It's not something you can switch on.
	It usually takes roughly about an hour, half hour for it to warm up.
	Yes, but all of this taken into account, John, there are some times when the attempted repeat experiment, even by you, has not worked, right?
	Yes, basically, yes.
	But why?
	Well, I think it's basically the crudeness of the equipment.
	It seems I'm always steering all the different controls and that to lock on to the the effects and once that happens I can average towards the
	late 80s roughly about five major effects per hour
	which is pretty good. It's really good.
	If I leave the lab then the other team would take over and they managed to levitate
	objects also. So at that time we were doing Alright, David, have you seen enough of the hardcore evidence, the videos, the 8mm stuff, whatever it is that John has, to believe that this is irrefutably a fact?
	Oh yeah, I've seen enough of the evidence for that, and even better, every single person I've dealt with at NASA, and I'll name names, a few names here.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	Mark Millis, who is the head of NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Lab, I've been on the phone with him.
	Yes.
	He's a young physicist, and they look at really exotic ideas over there.
	And he said, oh, they know all about the Hutchinson Effect, and they have tried to duplicate it, and they have had some problems.
	So I said to Mark, That's my point.
	Why don't you hire John Hutchison as a consultant to do it if you're having problems?
	And second, the paper that I've written, I believe, very explicitly details precisely why it works sometimes and why it doesn't others.
	And that has to do with getting into precise wave science and better, more accurate wave-producing machines, as John just mentioned.
	Another person at NASA who approached me is Alan Holt, who's the head of a Huge propulsion division at the Johnson Space Center.
	And he attends some of the conferences, and he's even lecturing now in UFO conferences.
	And all of these guys know the problems with rocket engines and ion propulsion drives and wormholes are all too expensive in energy.
	They're all interested in reducing inertial mass increases as you go faster, and also reducing the mass-gravity effect, because they believe that is theoretically possible.
	And they all talk about John Hutchison.
	So all of these guys, I have confirmed, absolutely know about him, including even at the X-Conference I just spoke at in Washington, D.C.
	I'm sitting in the front row, you know, watching Hamid Nassan's presentation from Mexico, which was really astounding.
	Yes.
	And sitting next to me is an elderly gentleman.
	He's taking notes.
	He's very serious.
	And I'm talking to him all in the physics language about wave-transforming mass.
	And he's chuckling to himself.
	And I said, so what do you do?
	He said, I work for the U.S.
	Army.
	I'm a physicist.
	And I said, what are you doing at a UFO conference?
	And these guys are there.
	that they're sitting in the aisle that they go back to work and they all end up finding out consequently about the hutchinson
	effect once again john hutchinson and david serena
	So, does that answer our friend in Chicago's question?
	I mean, I've got it right, don't I, David?
	Absolutely.
	I mean, I believe, I mean, I've seen the waves themselves on the NASA UFOs, the UFOs over Venice Beach, California.
	Even in Lin Ketay's new film on the Phoenix Lights, one of the young boys who was an eyewitness saw In the triangle formation, which was estimated at a mile wide, 5,000 some odd feet, they saw waves.
	And through the waves you could see this translucent mass, the same translucent mass that Hutchison is talking about in the Hutchison Effect.
	And what happens when you reduce the mass-gravity effect by wave-transforming mass, it eventually becomes translucent, then it turns to light, and then it disappears in these different spectrums of the electromagnetic spectrum that we do not see.
	And that is why there are so many accounts today, for example, of these digital, home digital cameras where people are taking photos on their vacation and they download the photos and there's UFOs in them they couldn't see.
	Right.
	So, also, now what's about to get really hot with the Hutchinson Effect is that we've now got a program in place.
	I'm working with Jason Martel and he's talking to Roger Weir to test the Roswell UFO metal samples.
	and submit them to the Hudgeson Effect wave transformation process to see how they respond.
	Because it's possible this very unique compound, if these really are the true metal samples from the Roswell craft,
	I predict that they will wave transform more efficiently than a lot of the compounds we're using in the Hudgeson
	Effect today.
	You're aware I'm in possession of some samples?
	Yes I am, and I think, I remember this being talked about many times in Roger Lear,
	and you know, if these really are the samples, and some of them sound like they are,
	some of the properties about the way they're almost liquid at times,
	if you expose them to different waves in the Hudgeson Effect, who knows,
	maybe this is the ultimate combination, a type of compound, I hear there's a lot of silicone or silica,
	In the mixture.
	Bismuth, magnesium, very unusual, strange, impossible to duplicate combinations, extremely thin layers, all tested, all really weird.
	And some of the testing they did involved large amounts of electrostatic charge.
	Very large amounts.
	And it really, really acted weirdly.
	We had video up showing how weirdly it reacted.
	It would jump around in the weirdest ways.
	Wow.
	Yeah, wow.
	It was wow, actually.
	And so we have some of this, and I imagine there are other samples.
	Are you in a position, John, to actually perform these experiments, or simply help others, or what?
	Well, I would love to help others.
	It's just that I was doing some levitation experiments for Discovery Channel Networks.
	Yes.
	And it caused a bit of a problem for the local tenants in the area.
	Like what happened?
	Well, there's stuff moving around, doors moving around, people's ornaments getting squished.
	Now... The mayor of New Westminster actually came here about a month ago with a councilman.
	This is very interesting.
	You were doing this for Discovery?
	Discovery and Fox TV.
	Were they financing some of this experimentation?
	Did they put up front money to get the equipment, get it going, or what?
	No, normally they will come here, especially in the early, well, 2000, 2001.
	In 2003 was my last demonstration, which was a very tough one, but the exterior effects were more dramatic than actually happened here.
	But they don't... Basically, I'm always contacted by Discovery Channel, Fox, to do a show.
	It could be in relation to the Bermuda Triangle.
	The last major adventure I had was building a recreation of the Ark of the Covenant.
	Which has not aired yet on TLC.
	I recall, John, that you were intent on doing that the last time we spoke.
	So you're telling me you have brought that experiment to fruition?
	Yes, I have.
	And it does work.
	And there's entities, believe it or not... Slow up, slow up, slow up.
	I'm slowing up.
	You've created the Ark of the Covenant, or recreated the Ark of the Covenant, I guess would be more accurate.
	What have you done?
	What have you done?
	What have I done, Art?
	I've had a small version of it and a large version.
	And we tested a large version at P&J Metals in Richmond, B.C.
	here, and that thing went off ballistics.
	What?
	Massive sparks and ionization effects and entities flying around in the room.
	Whoa, whoa.
	Entities flying around in the room.
	That's right.
	That's what Rudy was saying.
	I think my camera's not working properly, he said.
	So he double-checked the film when he was filming.
	Like, this is like six months of work we did.
	Yes?
	For Blue Book Films, who's a contractor for Discovery Channel Networks.
	So the main thing was major lightning and flames and white lights and strange little entities.
	I had Did they capture this on film?
	It's all on film.
	It's all on film.
	Now, this is remarkable.
	This is hours of film art, and it hasn't aired yet on TLC.
	I don't know why.
	It's on the Blue Book website, and they had a little showreel of it, and the showreel now is gone.
	The only thing that's left, I believe, on the Blue Book site is credits, and they give the Ark of the Covenant revealed.
	Good Lord, John.
	David, are you aware of all this?
	Well, no, actually, I didn't know that this was something new that John was doing.
	But he did tell me something, and I remember looking at actual photos.
	In the energy field, he could see entities actually appearing inside of the field that were almost angelic-looking, from what I remember when I saw them.
	and possibly, I mean, that is a way to, you know, when you think of Star Wars and these
	three-dimensional images of the Princess Leia appearing out of R2-D2, you know, it was almost
	like that.
	I mean, it looked like you just see this field and this three-dimensional image just floating
	inside of the field.
	Is that correct, John?
	Yeah, that's right.
	John, I need to understand how one goes about, in effect, back-engineering the Ark of the
	I mean, how did you know enough about the original make-up of the Ark of the Covenant to attempt to duplicate it?
	Well, I have a lot of teachers, and some of them are like Ben Franklin and many other, like history.
	I read books.
	If I'm not sure of anything, I'll read books.
	Alright, John, where'd you get the plans for the Ark of the Covenant?
	Which book had that?
	The Bible?
	The Bible.
	I went by the Bible and other books.
	Is the Bible specific enough to begin to back-engineer a technology?
	No, no, no.
	Not really.
	I had to go into other areas of research and speculation and saw the other scientific experiments that were done.
	I'm always fed information from other sources all the time.
	Yes?
	There was an experiment done 30 years ago in a university somewhere back east where they did this and this thing caused major havoc and they dismantled it.
	So I went on the premise that, OK, this thing has to be powered by maybe electrostatics.
	We tried all the other ways with even some of my crystal material as a cement.
	We tried grapefruit, and then we tried the voltaic piles.
	That was quite a weighty voltaic pile, getting up to 100 volts.
	And then I thought, no, maybe something simple like electrostatics.
	So I supplied, perhaps, the conditions you'd find in Egypt.
	Dry winds.
	Yes.
	Especially the tabernacle, which is cloth, which would collect a lot of ions in that.
	So you duplicated the environment.
	Mm-hmm.
	And then you produced this high electrostatic charge.
	That's right.
	And, swearing on the Bible, you're telling me... Yes, sir.
	You produced effects that included entities that they caught and documented on camera.
	Right on camera.
	And David Sirita, you're standing behind this?
	Yeah, I've seen some of the photographs in the field, and they do look like, like I said, almost like angelic-type forms.
	And, you know, I've personally seen this stuff with my own eyes.
	I've seen three-dimensional beings right in front of me, and through, you know, 25 years of practicing meditation, something's got to change in your ability to... It's like, you know, like a radio.
	In Einstein's four dimensions, you have up and down, you know, width, and then depth, and then time, and the observer ...is also a part of that dimension.
	You could almost call the observer the fifth dimension.
	Now, if you can... Every one of those points in Einstein's four dimensions are wave-particle relationships, and they all have frequency, including the observer.
	So, if you change the frequency of the observer, then what you can observe, the quantity of dimensions that you can observe, increases, just like moving up and down the FM dial.
	In my experience, I've seen these things three-dimensionally right in front of me, you know, humans.
	Even my aunt, when she died, I saw her right in front of me as clear as day.
	And what I saw inside of the field from the photos of the Hutchinson Effect reminded me so much of that.
	All right, you two.
	Frequently on this program, beginning when I was doing it full-time, we started hearing all these stories of so-called shadow people.
	You know, beings or entities, nobody's quite sure.
	Seen kind of in flickering vision.
	There's a theory that in these modern times, people are staring at monitors for hours and hours and hours.
	Computers.
	I'm guilty of that myself.
	I do it.
	And after spending hours staring at a computer monitor with a frame rate of what, 60 refreshing per second or whatever, it begins to change the human brain a little bit in terms, vibrationally, it changes the human brain a little bit and enables people to see more of whatever it is we're seeing when we see these so-called entities or whatever they are, sort of at the corner of vision.
	Does that make sense to anybody?
	Yeah, I mean, you're looking at the gap.
	Buddha always talked about the gap between the in and the out breath when you meditate.
	And then you also look at the gap between the peaks and the waves.
	And as your brain starts to change frequency, information in the in-between points of waves starts to peer through.
	And that is where these other dimensions are.
	And I think if you Exposure Brain, which is a wave machine to a computer or any electric current long enough, it's going to start to manipulate the wave state of the brain and maybe those gaps start to get wider and wider and more of that information starts to come through.
	When you see one of these things yourself, I mean, even thinking of shadow beings as black mysterious figures, Again, these things can appear black, but it literally could be a much higher frequency than we're used to seeing, so you just get a void, but you do get a shape.
	You do get an actual form.
	And if you're able to see high enough in frequency, that form will start to have detail.
	And what's strange about this apparatus that John has set up is it works the same way.
	It's a wave field, and that field, it's possible, it's acting as a You know, almost like a medium between those higher dimensional energies and what we see, and it allows it to reflect inside of that field, and that's a communication device.
	And maybe the Ark of the Covenant was such a thing.
	It was a communication device to communicate with God.
	I mean... Or, you know... Or, you know, demigod or god or whatever we want to call it.
	Aeon, I wonder about the advisability of opening doors like that.
	I mean, when you endeavor to reinvent the Ark of the Covenant, it seems to me you're inviting the possibility of, well, God knows what.
	God knows what.
	Sometimes, well, that's why I like to study a friend of mine, Colonel Alexander's work on the mental battlefield in psychotronics.
	Yes, I know Colonel Alexander well, and I know that he has attempted to observe some of what you've done, right?
	That's right, and he's also appeared on several TLC TV specials with me.
	All right.
	No offense, John or David, but if they had video of John creating an effect which produced recordable videotaped entities in a field, that would be so hot.
	Oh, yeah.
	It would be so hot.
	It is.
	That's so hot.
	Then how can it not run as a special?
	It should.
	I feel it should run two hours before the one hour.
	That's actually a great idea.
	I mean, I'm in the business of making films now.
	My newest film, Dan Aykroyd, Unplugged on UFOs, just appeared at Cannes Film Festival, and I've got, you know, major studio releasing it in Hollywood.
	And, you know, I'm just going to make more and more of these films.
	And that's... Great, David, but how could this... I mean, this would be so hot, that it doesn't take you to think of, gee, what a great idea, why don't I do that?
	There should be... there should be clamoring.
	I think they would if they were so open-minded.
	But look at the Peter Jennings special.
	I mean, there's real UFO footage out there that I offered the producers of Peter Jennings, and they wanted to do simulations.
	They didn't want to show the real thing because that would scare people too much.
	Oh, you really believe that?
	I believe that.
	I think a simulation is more safe.
	It's like a buffer zone.
	You know, you're hearing eyewitness accounts and testimony and hearsay.
	But if you're looking at real videotape, you know, of the giant triangles, the Phoenix Lights, the UFOs that Jeff Willis is getting in Phoenix, Pat Esker's stuff, the Mark Olsen stuff up in Sonora, I mean, I've met all these guys.
	This is good footage, and I think that, and I offered it to the producers of Peter Jennings, and they didn't want to run it, but a story like this, beings in a field, I mean, angelic-like beings, and John has had some of his own personal experiences I believe just from, like you said, staring in front of the computer all day, he's working around these fields all the time.
	And aside from, you know, the Hutchinson effect, there's been some incredible communication experiences he's had as well.
	Well, it's interesting, David.
	going back from your phone my ex
	made uh... a film that appeared on entertainment tonight commercial of the
	unknown she went out and interviewed such people like tom bierden uh...
	you card reconfirming all the ufo technology and it
	haven't heard yet in u s or canada but there are many times overseas i think
	actually in that one one time
	I can understand that ABC could have gone farther.
	They were taking a first step.
	It was a good first step.
	You've got to really remember that.
	I mean, they were trying to seriously, for the first time, God bless their souls for doing it, do something on ufology, and they certainly did.
	Now, I'm not sure that you could go as far as you're suggesting.
	Right now, without, as you pointed out, scaring the hell out of people.
	The greater, you know, civilized world out there may not be quite ready for this.
	Yeah, I mean, well, everyone in the UFO world is upset about Peter Jennings.
	Myself, even though I was only on for 15 seconds, they interviewed me for 80 minutes, and they asked the best questions I've ever heard.
	I mean, by the way, his producers and the directors We're really good at probing your mind and getting the deep stuff out of you.
	So they have archives of everybody's interviews.
	But even though we're all upset, the general public got, you know, UFO 101.
	They got their first step, and maybe step two will go much deeper.
	Exactly.
	Now, it's understandable that Ufology would be upset because they know so much more and they expected it to be the holy grail of the current cutting edge.
	Well, it wasn't that, but I don't think you could really do that immediately.
	You've got to bring people up to these things.
	You've got to bring them up, and for the people who want to know the deep stuff, you come to the conferences And it's like going to university for three days and you'll come out of there with, you know, your head in the clouds.
	Or you listen to programs like this.
	Or you listen to programs like this.
	I mean, radio is still far better than television, in my opinion, to tell the truth, because you can spend the time.
	And television time is too expensive, and they don't... I mean, look at news today.
	It's like fast food, unless you watch McNeil or NewsHour.
	I listen to the radio, and I go on the Internet, because the radio, your show, and And George Norrie and, you know, all some of the alternative news sites.
	That's where you get the details.
	And you find out stories like you were talking tonight about.
	I didn't know there were, you know, unprecedented tornadoes up in Canada near the Rockies and up and down the Midwest, because they're not reporting that stuff.
	Well, it's there to be seen.
	It's simply not reported, but there are incredible numbers of large storms, supercells, tornadoes,
	gigantic hail that's just absolutely causing havoc.
	All right, Sean in Newark, Delaware says, hey, our news update.
	I just heard about the severe weather in the Midwest.
	They're reporting the tornadoes and very severe thunderstorms.
	That's ham in Delaware, Sean.
	Thank you, Sean.
	Yes, I know.
	To those who are observing it and watching it, it's an incredible thing that's going on right now.
	Now, just before we move on to the weaponization of space with John and David, I do want to ask a couple of things.
	John, there's somebody who is looking at your website and would like to understand, I guess it kind of goes with what we're talking about, but this portal effect.
	The portal effect?
	Yes.
	It's basically what David was talking about.
	It was captured on Super 8mm film about 1980.
	And what happened was, when I was experimenting, the whole room turned into like a portal, and you could see these little entities running around inside of it.
	Yeah, there we are.
	Can I just sort of reverse my engines for a second?
	Because there's something rather important I should maybe mention before we go full forward, is that my work was presented at MIT May 21 by Ken Shoulders, as regards to charge cluster technology.
	And what Ken does is do the metal samples on a microscopic level, but he can actually freeze, in time and space, radioactive waste.
	So we feel that we have a commonality in getting rid of the nuclear problem.
	He can freeze nuclear waste?
	What do you mean by that?
	Well, he has a way of discharging, in a chamber, some radioactive materials with high voltage, and it seems to what appears is a similarity on a microscopic level to the SEMs and X-ray diffraction of my metal samples.
	But basically what it's doing is rendering the radio, the dangerous radioactive material harmless?
	Yes.
	I was with him also in 1997 before, it was actually sponsored by the Star Trek people and Larry King.
	And we had these meetings where we were talking about Ken Scholder's charge cluster technologies.
	And how it could be so important in getting it for the use and elimination of nuclear radiation.
	Yes, we living near Yucca Mountain would be very thankful.
	Is this going to be presented to people who count?
	Yes, of course.
	Well, is it an alternative to storing the mass we have of this dangerous stuff in Yucca Mountain?
	I do believe so.
	I really believe in Ken Shoulder's work.
	I've seen it, I've met Ken.
	Met his teams in that, and we met politicians who are very interested in this.
	Alright, are you up on this, David?
	Yeah, I've worked a lot in this field, in, you know, nuclear fusion and nuclear sciences, and that Hal Fox at ColdFusion Associates, you know, part of the ColdFusion work, they were able to stabilize nuclear waste by transmutating it into these more stable states where it doesn't emit, you know, the various forms of radiation.
	And also now there are these new fuel cells in England, a company that I've worked with, It can take nuclear waste, and just like hydrogen fuel cells, it actually produces electricity, and as it produces electricity, it becomes more and more stable.
	But rather than using nuclear reactions to produce heat and boil water, this just relies on the photoelectric effect, which is how Einstein won the Nobel Prize, which is the transference of radiation or electromagnetic energy into electricity.
	So these three, there's many methods out there that are done.
	Now, U.S.
	Ecology is the company, one of the largest contractors for handling nuclear waste.
	When I approach them about how Fox's discovery, which is very similar to Hutchison's... David, let me just slow you down one second and ask you, that transformation you're talking about, if it doesn't occur through boiling water and that kind of a heat transfer with a reaction, I'm not understanding how it does work.
	Well, the way it works is, do you understand, the photoelectric effect, which is how Einstein won the Nobel Prize in the beginning, is the transference of electromagnetism, either through light, or through radio waves, or through even gamma emissions, or beta emissions, which is just pure electron emissions.
	What happens with unstable material is it's emitting radioactive waves, and now those waves can be converted directly to electricity.
	It's very similar to how solar panels pick up photon energy and convert it to electricity.
	And there are ways of... You're saying the frequency of the emission from this material can be captured the way the sun is captured by a cell and converted to electricity?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	There are certain nuclear reactions.
	The last show we did, I talked about helium-3.
	Helium-3 doesn't even use heat.
	It converts everything directly.
	It produces charged protons.
	When you fuse Helium-3, you produce a huge amount of energy.
	It's nine times more efficient than Uranium per fuel weight, and there's no radioactivity, and it doesn't boil water like Uranium does.
	You know, you slow-fission Uranium to produce enormous heat.
	You boil water.
	Whenever you boil water, you lose 60% of your initial energy.
	And then that's how nuclear power works.
	They have all this radioactive waste to deal with.
	Well, the waste, there's different types of waste.
	High-grade waste is the pellets, you know, the uranium pellets.
	And that stuff is still producing energy, and it's still radioactive, highly, when they dispose of it.
	Now, all those radioactive emissions can be either transferred, you can use the photoelectric effect to get the energy out of it, and there's also other methods that People in the fuel cell business are finding that they can extract energy directly out of it.
	How much energy are we talking about?
	Well, certainly from what I know of this particular company that's in England, I have introduced them to Air Products.
	Air Products is the largest hydrogen manufacturing company in America.
	And Air Products is very interested in this particular fuel cell because they can take ordinary garbage, which gives off methane, I want to understand the scale, David.
	So when I ask how much electricity...
	It depends how radioactive the material is and how much energy, how many emissions the material is giving off.
	Because you have high level radioactive waste, you have low level waste.
	In other words, what would be a typical practical application?
	Could you put together something that would equal a large electrical plant today?
	A nuclear plant?
	What are we talking about?
	No, I think these fuel cells are more like things that could maybe run appliances in your home, your computer.
	I mean, there's many times, and this is kind of funny, but I look at my iPod and I can't believe how much power this thing puts out.
	And I think there's got to be nuclear waste in this thing.
	I mean, how does it Absolutely.
	See, how do you recharge an iPod and it pumps out sound like that?
	It just doesn't make sense.
	And I think those are the kind of places you can make these small fuel cells, you know, for a single lamp, a computer, you know, things like that.
	But that's why power companies aren't interested in the weight change.
	It doesn't have that much energy.
	I understand.
	However, wouldn't such a device in a consumer's hands, with nuclear waste driving it, be kind of dangerous?
	It would, and I think for that particular transmutation of nuclear waste issue into energy, they're probably going to do it in cells, and then the power leaves The station.
	I mean, right now, most of our nuclear waste in this country is stored on-site at the nuclear power plant because they have not approved Yucca Mountains.
	That's right.
	And nobody wants the stuff anywhere, so it ends up staying on-site.
	And the workers, of course, get affected by radioactivity.
	And then we use it, of course, in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
	We're sending all of our bullets and munitions loaded with, you know, Nuclear waste to bullets.
	And we're trying to get rid of this stuff everywhere.
	But it's lower level emissions of radioactivity that are of less interest to the big power companies, but there's still a lot of energy you can extract.
	And yeah, it would have to be in a safe place.
	So nuclear waste dump sites would be a place that you could extract energy directly.
	And also, there are many other forms of waste.
	I mean, hospitals produce huge amounts of nuclear waste.
	They're the second largest producer in the country.
	And with correct transmutation could be used for power.
	All right, I want to change subjects here and talk about the weaponization of space.
	The U.S.
	has taken an interesting position.
	Clearly we, I quoted an Air Force general I think last week, who said we have a lot of very important satellites that we could not afford to lose in a war or a conflict.
	And many other nations are beginning to build spacecraft capable of destroying our satellites.
	Therefore, we have to protect them.
	This is a big fight going on in Washington, indeed, the world right now.
	Are we going to put weapons in space, or perhaps, even as I suspect, do we already have them?
	Well, I mean, Reagan started this with Star Wars, and it's interesting that Reagan was someone who had a personal
	experience, you know, with seeing a UFO, and he made the very famous
	statement at the United Nations, you know, hypothetically saying, what if we were suddenly facing an
	alien threat from outside this world?
	Yes.
	And that's the president who brought us Star Wars, and now we're talking about, you know, doing it again and going beyond, because we're making breakthroughs with technology.
	So I wonder, is it really the satellites?
	Is it really?
	And that's a good argument.
	I mean, you can definitely believe that, because if someone starts taking out our satellites and our telecommunications systems go down, we're easier to take out.
	But also, the The incredible amount of UFO appearances all over the planet just keeps growing and growing and growing, and I gotta wonder if what Reagan said, you know, and imagine if he said that at the United Nations, what did he say behind closed doors?
	And, you know, is that why we're going forward in a weaponizing space?
	And we are going forward, is that correct?
	And apparently, yes, and apparently when Reagan was You know, met the same resistance that we're meeting from China and Russia today.
	You know, they're threatening us if we go ahead with this because it starts the Cold War again.
	And yet, behind closed doors, Reagan was able to diffuse that because he said, this isn't really about, we're worried about you guys.
	It's about the extraterrestrial threat.
	And once they all saw that, you know, they sighed and realized there was a great relief that the Americans aren't doing this to actually, you know, You believe they bought that?
	Well, considering the Chinese and the Russians are taking the UFO phenomenon seriously in their universities that are studying it... Okay, let's take it a step further.
	David, do you believe that President Reagan took them some kind of proof that this was so?
	That there was a common threat?
	Well, it's funny when we all say proof.
	I mean, we have the Roswell samples, we have eyewitnesses, we have guys like Gordon Cooper who testified to seeing UFOs, and a lot of people don't even consider that proof.
	We have videotape, which many people think can be faked, but when you see one of these things yourself, like you have, Art, you know, over the highway, the triangle that came down, and I saw the one in Berkeley in 1967, and Reagan saw one himself.
	When you see one, all the videotapes in the world Yes, but David, if I was the President of the United States and I was going to try to convince at that time Russia and now China that, oh don't worry, these weapons that we're putting up there, they're not because of you, they're because of this other thing, this threat from outer space.
	I wouldn't expect to be able to sell that to them, David, unless I had more than just words.
	Yeah, I think one thing, if it was the President of the United States saying, look, I have seen one of these things myself, that would not necessarily suffice, but it would raise some eyebrows.
	But, you know... David, I'd have to walk in with some kind of... Yeah, and this is... I mean, I'm going to give you a case example here.
	Since, you know, my first film came out, you know, exploring the invisible and the ultraviolet and NASA looking at the invisible, I got a call from a military guy who works in Space Command, which is a division of our military that uses satellites and looks at the Earth and the near-space environment in all the spectrum of light, visible and invisible, and he cited incidences to me on the phone where a general marched in because they had an incident where on ultraviolet they could see these balls of light coming in towards the Earth and then they did a U-turn and went out into space.
	And the General Marsden confiscated all the videotapes and these guys all laughed because they said, we see these things all the time.
	Now if they have that kind of evidence from military, you know, surveying satellite systems around our planet, I think they could share that with the Chinese and the Russians and say, look, you know, there is something going on.
	We are being visited and we need to protect Alright, David, let's see what you know about this.
	I think most in the audience agree that these craft, or whatever the hell they are, they are here.
	Um, why don't we intervene?
	I mean, occasionally, individually, for example, I had a call, I don't know, a week ago, a guy said that a UFO followed his truck and followed his truck and he finally got so angry that this good old boy hopped out of the truck and took several shots at this UFO with a .357 or something.
	Anyway, he shot at the UFO.
	That's an individual occurrence, I think, ill-advised.
	Are we nationally doing this?
	You know, it's ridiculous that our governments say UFOs are not a national security threat.
	Well, I think... It's just crazy, David, because if they're flying in our airspace and we don't control them, they're a threat.
	They may even be from another country and black ops programs from Russia or China or, God forbid, the Middle East.
	That is a point that I brought up in the Venice UFO case.
	I phoned the FAA in the Los Angeles airport and said, you know, this thing is not a balloon.
	We've done balloon tests.
	Did you guys see this thing on radar?
	And the number one question is, why weren't you up there?
	This is post 9-11.
	Why are we not intervening?
	We've never watched the skies this carefully, as you point out, since 9-11.
	So what's up?
	Yeah, and why aren't your jets up there chasing these things around?
	If we can see them, and people are videotaping them over Phoenix all the time, where are you guys?
	Yes, and?
	And that concerns me, because what if they're not from another planet?
	What if they are from another country, and they're probes, or they are advanced aircraft, and we're not up there?
	So there can either be one of two answers.
	One, they're there.
	They know they're there.
	They know they can't do anything about it.
	Or two, they're our own.
	Yeah, and that's when you start to think, I don't believe we're that stupid.
	If something is in our airspace, It's either invisible to radar, which when their mass gravity effect is very low and translucent, microwave photons, which is what radar is, they just pass right through them like butter.
	Well, let's ask John.
	John, is it possible that your effect has been not only discovered, but perhaps perfected by the military, and that we do have craft that can virtually change the makeup of their mass, and virtually disappear to the human eye, or go wherever they go, when the effect that you stumbled on I tend to believe, Art, that they have replicated it.
	I get signals and messages from the early 90s about that, that basically we let them too close.
	I mean, this stuff was presented in the Pentagon in 1981, 1980, and they came and investigated it.
	Then the Canadian government got involved also to investigate it, but When I'm trying to retrieve the video stock, especially from the Canadian government, those people don't exist.
	Although I have all their letters and all their names.
	And it's interesting to note... What do you mean they don't exist?
	You cannot contact them.
	They deny they were ever here.
	And I'm trying to go through their Freedom of Information Act.
	To the Canadian government.
	These would be people who observed your experiments.
	Suddenly, we'll know we weren't at John's place.
	We didn't see anything.
	That's right.
	And they forget, of course, that I have a lot of mail correspondence from these folks.
	And that I know their names.
	We corresponded on a very heavy level.
	I have all this documentation.
	Some of it's on my website.
	It's interesting that you're talking about this because in the last 10 months there's been a really heavy traffic in phone calls to me and emails and letters to me from NASA, from the Pentagon, from SAIC.
	I'm not sure what that stands for.
	Science Applications International Corporation.
	I have all this stuff printed out.
	It comes to almost 2 inches of material.
	And it seems to go in waves.
	And I get, you know, they say, well, can you send us videos?
	So I'll send videos to the Air Force Division of the Pentagon.
	I don't want to mention names in case I get hit on the head.
	head because... Yeah, I don't want you hit on the head.
	I can't get over that ad, it's like a form of time travel.
	Alright, once again, John Hutchison and David Sirita.
	David, you know, that's one thing that goes to John's credibility.
	He does such wild, out-on-the-edge stuff, and then claims these contacts with, you know, NASA?
	I mean, DOD?
	Big, important people, space-related agencies, that kind of thing?
	Can you verify these contacts?
	Well, firstly, I have One of the things I did when I went up to film and interview John is he showed me all of the letters that he got from these different agencies.
	I looked them over and they're definitely authentic.
	When I worked for the Department of Defense in bomb detection, I got a lot of letters from different divisions of the military.
	The letters are very similar.
	I mean, the letterhead, the stationery, the paper, you know, it definitely has the seal of the United States embedded in the fabric of the paper.
	So this isn't made up.
	These aren't made up letters.
	And secondly, from myself, having conversations with people I know at NASA and, you know, like Mark Millis is not someone I know well at NASA.
	I've had a conversation with him and he definitely said they have tried to duplicate the Hutchison effect on their own.
	Alan Holt, who is one of the heads of the whole propulsion division at the Johnson Space Center, is now lecturing on UFOs this summer for the first time at MUFON in Denver, Colorado this summer.
	So, he went from just being an observer, Alan Holt, and studying crop circles and not letting too many people in the agency know what he was up to, to now actually getting involved because he's becoming more and more convinced.
	When you look at, um, you know, some of these different people who are attending these conferences, U.S.
	Army physicists, um, that I've met with, I mean, I am, you know, with God as my witness, I'm telling you the truth.
	I've met these people.
	When evidence of the case for NASA UFOs first came out, one of our first buyers was Lockheed Martin, um, the aerospace corporation, and that is another company John has had look into the Hutchinson effect.
	Now, the only thing that's disturbing to me about all of it is I get the same answer every time.
	You know, uh, Alan Holt says that he's really interested in my theory and the way I can explain, literally on a quantum level, how to reduce the mass-gravity effect of a single atom, and how that relates to the Hutchison effect.
	But he said, be patient, because he said under this administration, the Bush administration, there's very little money for exotic Propulsion concept research and actual experimentation.
	Well, they appear interested enough.
	I mean, if they're sending these guys to UFO conferences, they're very interested.
	They're very interested.
	Now, the other thing is, what if there's no funding coming to NASA for exotic propulsion research, but at Lockheed and, you know, some of the SAIC, Science Applications International Corporation, they're one of the top four defense contractors and allegedly People have tracked airplanes going to Area 51 out of their airport in San Diego, where their headquarters are.
	And maybe, on a black level, they are spending money on this stuff, but why not?
	And I asked, you know, Alan Holt at NASA and John Schuessler, who is head of International Directorate of MUFON, was also a contractor for NASA, working with Boeing and Gemini Days.
	And the last thing he did at NASA in 1980, 1998, he built the Advanced Space Propulsion Lab for Franklin Chang Diaz, the Costa Rican-American physicist who was on mission number STS-75, the very famous incident where I attest that there are UFOs appearing in the ultraviolet.
	Now, all these guys are aware of this stuff, and the problem is, according to NASA and Mark Millis' program, which has a fantastic website, NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Lab, But it's a $50,000 a year program.
	All right.
	Listen, the evidence for UFO propulsion apparently led to the conclusions that John's effect, the Hutchison effect, levitating the cannonball, for example, was utilizing a similar method to produce anti-gravity.
	Now, after you've seen a craft like I've seen, You realize that you either saw an extraterrestrial craft, or you clearly saw the U.S.
	government with the ability to reverse the effects of gravity, or escape the effects of gravity, or I don't know how you would exactly put it, but there's no question this thing wasn't flying, it was floating, it was defying gravity in some way.
	And it's not using thruster engines because it's quiet.
	Dead quiet.
	Crickets at a quarter-mile quiet.
	So, John, do you think they might have essentially perfected what you did and are using it now?
	I feel they are, Art, because of all the emails I get from different scientists.
	And some of the scientists appear on TLC shows, along with Nick Cook, like Boyd Bushman, Lockheed Martin.
	Yes.
	And he's kind of a fan of mine who's Researched out my work, and he's doing his own experiments, actually.
	And, yes, I have to say they have to do it.
	I mean, if I could have done it, you know, with primitive equipment, they have massive resources to do it in the national laboratories.
	I'm sure they're doing it.
	All right.
	David, if they have craft that concurrently defy gravity, then how are we to delineate between U.S.
	government experimental craft and, I don't know, extraterrestrial craft?
	Well, I would go to the energy source.
	For example, the Betty Cash case.
	You have the severe radiation burns from the victims who were near the craft.
	Yes.
	And obviously, you know, they're using nuclear fuels like uranium and plutonium and other highly radioactive fuels for their energy source for these advanced nuclear propulsion methods.
	Because when you reduce the mass gravity effect of a craft, you initially need a huge energy burst, such as You know, Bob Lazar's element 115 would produce, but only for a fraction of a second.
	Now once you reduce the mass down to nothing, you don't need hardly any energy to sustain it once it's in that state, but initially you need these bursts of energy, and today we have not mastered the non-radioactive nuclear fuels like helium-3.
	We don't know how, even though helium-3, you know, beckons us with the most It's a profound energy source on the planet, far beyond hydrogen, far beyond uranium, because it's non-radioactive, and you don't have all the radiation problems.
	I think the way we determine between an alien craft and one of ours is the radiation, and the harmful radiation.
	And there are cases, even in Mexico recently, when communism was presented, of victims who got severe radiation burns.
	Now, really advanced UFO craft from other planets Obviously, you can't come from another star system to Earth and be exposed to radiation, harmful radiation, for that long and survive.
	You wouldn't be here.
	You wouldn't make the trip.
	You'd die before you got here.
	So, there are still a long ways to go with it.
	I mean, to master the non-radioactive energy sources as fuel.
	So, you think the radiation is the key to which it is?
	Yeah, harmful radiation, yes.
	Again, once you get to the point where you can reduce the mass-gravity effect of a craft down to zero, or near zero, I don't believe in absolute zeros, you essentially don't need energy anymore.
	It's not about energy, and I think that's what the ETs have discovered, is that they've been in the same position we are in today.
	You know, rocket engines, increasing energy on mass, a g-force problem, it's so difficult.
	Imagine even doing One-tenth the speed of light, which is 67 million miles per hour, and an incoming asteroid is going to hit you, and you've got to turn right.
	A subtle turn, G-forces will kill you at that velocity.
	And there are, even Bob Lazar's theory, that they're using gravity generators.
	I mean, gravity generators are competing gravity fields that the craft envelopes itself in.
	And even though it's a nice-looking theory on paper, when you go flying by a sun or a moon, You know, even, again, even a hundredth the speed of light, the G-forces on turns in competing gravity fields are going to be so strong they'll destroy you.
	But if you're zero mass gravity effect, you can turn right and you won't feel any G-forces.
	And that's how UFOs move.
	They stop on a dime, they turn right, they suddenly accelerate.
	And once you're in that state, you don't need these radioactive fuels anymore.
	You don't need to use your fuel.
	If we're looking at an extraterrestrial craft, it would exhibit those qualities.
	One of our own... I don't know if we're there yet.
	I don't know.
	We might be producing the giant triangles.
	Some of the... I mean, these triangles are being seen everywhere.
	Everywhere, that's right.
	Florida, Texas, they've been up on your site recently.
	I mean, there's no way those are B-2 bombers.
	They don't... B-2 bombers make a lot of noise and they...
	They're using jet engines.
	There's just no way.
	These things are silent, these triangles.
	They're huge.
	The only two possibilities are some sort of, I don't know, lighter-than-air ship, or clearly we're defying gravity.
	What I saw looked very, very solid, but I could have been fooled.
	It could have been a lighter-than-air craft.
	But as you point out, they're everywhere.
	They're over our interstates.
	That's something that puzzles me, and maybe one of you has an answer.
	Well, if you had a secret craft, you wouldn't fly the damn thing over the major interstate highways of America.
	Yeah, I mean, I skydived out at Paris Valley, California, and these guys are pretty strict out there as far as UFO phenomena.
	And because they recognize who I am, one of them, the owners of the Drop Zone, came up to me and said they had a huge UFO come right over the, it's like the house where a lot of the skydivers spend the night.
	And they went outside and this thing was dead silent, and it was massive.
	She said it must have been a mile across.
	And these are non-believers.
	These are all military people who like to have fun skydiving on the weekend.
	And why?
	You know, why, if it's one of ours, what's it doing over a drop zone?
	Exactly.
	John?
	Yes, it's interesting to mention the power sources.
	Could it be zero-point energy?
	Well, see, zero-point energy, to me, is When you reduce the mass-gravity effect down to zero, you're actually requiring less and less energy to move about.
	And that's when you start tapping into the zero-point energy field itself.
	There's a recent physics paper, for those real techies out there, written by Don Hodson, called Dirac's Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy.
	It's in two parts.
	It's the most stunning paper.
	It was rejected by mainstream physics.
	I always look at the papers by the big names like Dirac that are rejected because mainstream physics knew how to break the speed of light, how to get a spaceship to even levitate, and that would mean they have the answers and I should be reading their work, but they obviously haven't figured that out.
	So I read this paper, and this is a top, top nuclear physicist, and in this paper he talks about All matter being born out of a singularity called the sea of negative energy.
	See, matter... I'll use a spiritual model here to explain how matter is born into duality and also the actual, you know, subatomic level.
	And keep it simple, you know.
	I'll keep it short and simple.
	You know, you go back to the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve are told not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day you do, you'll surely die.
	Well, when you take in good and evil, good and evil is a conflict.
	Which is actually a duality.
	It's positive and negative energy.
	And if you imagine the angelic kingdom in a state of singularity or oneness, there is no duality there.
	There is no conflict.
	Duality falls into a lower dimension, and in that ignorant state, it becomes physical.
	Now, without getting too philosophical, basically what happens is that millions of people take in the knowledge of good and evil, they each define Egotistically, what is good and what is evil, and they're always different.
	So we always end up fighting.
	Coincidentally or not, the atom is coded with the same information.
	The hydrogen atom has a proton, which is positively charged, and an antiproton, which spins negative.
	So positive, negative.
	And you have an electron, which spins negative, and you have an antielectron spinning positive.
	So it's just like good and evil.
	It's duality.
	Now, if you can light The only particle we know of that can bounce off of the Earth that escapes gravity, the true anti-gravity particle is a photon, is single.
	Now, Jesus says in the Gospels, if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be filled with light.
	Coincidentally, when you end duality in matter, you become single.
	And that singularity, the only particle in physics we know of that is single is light.
	Light has to move through an actual ether, an actual background of space, which itself is a wave.
	So it pushes against it, it meets some resistance, and it has a limit of the speed of light.
	But Dirac's sea of negative energy, which is singly charged.
	Light is singly charged, positive single charge.
	Imagine this sea of negative energy that is singly charged.
	If you're not singly charged, there's no resistance.
	You don't encounter inertia.
	An entire space Uniform space pervading the entire universe that is single, because resistance, inertia, is born when you have two waves that are opposing each other.
	David, this is really all quantum, isn't it?
	It's quantum!
	So, Dirac's paper is, in the sea of negative energies, shows the birth of matter from this singularity.
	Now, if you could flip your UFO, first of all, Reducing it down to zero, this is where the real zero point is, because it's a singularity zero.
	It's not a dual electric field like we have here.
	You know, the alternating current that Tesla invented is positive, negative, positive, negative.
	Right.
	Well, when you enter singularity, you're so far beyond the speed of light, it's ridiculous.
	In fact, you can't even use it, because everything is instantaneous, because there's no resistance.
	So, you could conquer any distance.
	You could go from here to Andromeda.
	Yeah, well, that would explain the quantum communication that otherwise is completely inexplicable.
	Exactly, because it's instantaneous over any distance.
	Now, if we can tap into Dirac's Sea of... And don't be misconstrued by the word negative energy.
	It's not negative spiritual energy.
	It's just spinning counterclockwise.
	But it's singularity that I'm talking about, and a lot of physicists today ...are looking for something beyond the dual-pairedness of the dual state of matter, and they're looking for what's called singularities.
	And sometimes, some people believe they're at the end of a black hole, and the end of the Einstein-Rosen bridges, and Dirac is saying that there is a pathway into this sea of energy, and it is where all matter is born from, and it returns.
	And that may be, philosophically, what even happened when you consider The resurrection of Christ, I mean, he took physical mass and he transformed it into light and he could move around, you know, and there are examples of masters in Buddhism and other religions that have done the same thing.
	So, it's not out of line, then, to say that it is good and it is evil.
	If you're a religious person, it makes that exact transition.
	Well, yeah, this realm is good and evil, but Jesus, even in the Gospel of Philip, which was rejected by the Church, he says, in this world, there is good and evil.
	It's good things are not good, and it's evil things not evil, because he's trying to show you there's something beyond it.
	Because good and evil is always a conflict.
	Yes.
	The two of you think you understand why the SETI telescopes can't locate a signal.
	Right.
	Why?
	I believe for two reasons.
	One, they are looking at information in light waves that are too low in frequency.
	Longer or lower frequency waves, as they travel through space, they collide and share information with other long-standing waves and they get distorted.
	And we only have the ability right now, as you know in radio, to look at information inside of light waves, which is what radio is, in the gigahertz or billion hertz range.
	We haven't even hit a trillion hertz, and we certainly haven't hit a quadrillion hertz.
	So you think we're just not looking high enough?
	We're not looking high enough, and that's one possibility, but here's something that's really going to blow people's minds.
	Remember the book, The Secret Life of Plants, that came out in the 70s?
	Yes, of course.
	They made a documentary.
	This is stunning, because this documentary was never released, and I got to see it.
	A very famous astrophysicist, who is working at major universities today, and I have his name written down, he took a telescope and surrounded it with a Faraday cage to block out interfering radiation, and pointed it at the star system of Sirius.
	and put living mustard seeds at the end of the telescope to receive the light rays from Ceres.
	What? Mustard seeds?
	Sprouted mustard seeds. Living.
	What does that have to do with receiving anything?
	Okay, this is interesting. So he, just like in the figure life of plants,
	they connected electrodes to the mustard seeds and they suddenly got what appeared to be
	intelligent blips and signals.
	Oh, isn't that interesting?
	Isn't that interesting?
	These are called bio photons and you can search bio photons on Google and you'll get tons
	of pages on this stuff but living photons versus dead radio waves may be able to communicate
	in this sea of negative energy in real time.
	Once again John Hutchinson and David Serita and I wonder if what we're talking about here
	is a real world quantum effect.
	In other words, the seeds on the telescope.
	It sounds wacky on the one hand.
	Welcome back, you two.
	What kind of seeds were those again, please?
	They were mustard, sprouted, living mustard seeds.
	And, you know, that's what the book, The Super Life of Plants, initiated, was to, you know, communicate signals.
	You're right.
	With plants, and even though, go back to Philip Cornel Corso for a minute.
	Or to understand how the plants communicated to each other as quantum objects have been noted to do through time and space, faster than the speed of light, certainly.
	Unmeasurable, actually.
	And so this whole quantum thing has been, so many of my guests, David and John, have been talking about this new quantum world we're about to leap into, and so I'm curious, with regard to the mustard seeds, please, what was actually seen through the telescope that was not seen otherwise when looking at Sirius?
	It's not the visual that was different, it was the information in the photons coming from Sirius that stimulated the plant seeds, the sprouted mustard seeds, and the transference of how the seeds responded Um, into, through like the EEG system where you hook electrodes up to the brain and you get signals.
	That's what, um, um, was done in the Secret Life of Plants with Clive Baxter.
	He was the one who started the research and proved that plants had feelings and could perceive emotions.
	Okay, but what are you suggesting?
	Well, the mustard seeds started blipping and it seemed like an intelligent signal.
	Now, the astrophysicist who did it, I'm going to have to get his name and email it to you, Because there is information about him.
	He's gone on to do major work in astronomy, but no one followed up on that.
	Now, isn't it curious that Colonel Philip Corso said that the Greys were half-living, half-machine?
	That's right.
	And is there a connection?
	Is there a reason they were half-living, half-machine?
	And also, the human aura also gives off what are called living or bio-photon energies, which are now measurable in quantum physics.
	Is there a difference between a radio wave, which is Kind of a mechanical dead wave which travels at the speed of light in a biophoton.
	Now I propose that biophotons frequencies are so high they eventually enter singularity at the highest frequency and that singularity there is no resistance.
	And that is why they can travel beyond the speed of light and possibly the mustard seeds are communicating in real time.
	There is no speed of light or even a hundred times the speed of light.
	It's actual real time.
	Yes.
	With any distance.
	And that the information is in the photons coming from Ceres, but radio telescopes can't detect it.
	They can't pull the information out of it.
	I'm curious.
	You said that the scientist involved was able to, he thought, detect some sort of pattern.
	Do you know what?
	Yes.
	Some sort of pattern.
	And that was in the film.
	And this was, it's funny, they never, the book was a big success, but they never released the documentary.
	But there are copies of it floating around, and it's really old.
	You know, 70s film footage, so it doesn't look great, but when I saw that, I was like, you know, I've been, I've made connections to that particular star system many times before in my work with the NASA UFO phenomenon.
	We all know that's where, you know, the Egyptian mythologies come from, the star system of Sirius, and the Dog Star, and it's a legendary star system.
	It may be where our, you know, co-creators are from.
	Do the two of you believe, John particularly, John, I wonder if you believe that your effect, or something like it, helped build the pyramids, perhaps the Coral Castle in Florida, the things that are so inexplicable, a human could not have done it without some kind of effect.
	I have been approached with that question from various people about that.
	Now me.
	Now you, Art.
	And it's a good question, a very valid question, because I was in Egypt and I saw the pyramids and those massive stones from Luxor, from the different areas that we went out traveling, and I would have to say something else was at play there.
	I cannot envision ropes in that time period that strong that could possibly lift that stuff up.
	I mean, even the way the rope would pull the people down.
	Um, well, there is no duplicating it, John, period.
	They've tried.
	It can't be duplicated.
	I saw a TV show on that.
	The single man who did what he did at Coral Castle can't be duplicated.
	Some sort of effect was used.
	Does it sound like the Hutchison Effect or something like it?
	Something... Yes, it does, in many ways, Art.
	This is, uh, Coral Castle is kind of an interesting, intriguing mystery, because I like studying stuff very intently.
	Like, I look at every photograph and pictures and that.
	I saw parts of a lab and equipment that he had down there at Coral Castle and I could relate to it.
	You understood some of what he was doing just based on the photographic evidence?
	Just the photographic evidence of the remaining bits and pieces of electronic surplus, basically.
	What about you, David?
	Have you looked into the building of the pyramids or Coral Castle and tried to understand the power?
	Oh yeah, I mean, when you're talking about being able to wave transform Even stones or steel, and reduce the mass-gravity effect, it starts to levitate.
	Exactly.
	Again, photons are in a single-wave state, and matter is dual-paired.
	The only thing we can see that actually levitates off the Earth are photons.
	They bounce off the Earth and go out into space.
	Gravity can bend the path of a photon, but it can't stop it from leaving the Earth.
	So, if matter can even overcome the differential between positive and negative, One of those gets stronger, the effects of gravity get less, and it starts to rise.
	Now, if you can do that to huge stones, that's the secret behind the highest degree masons in Egypt who were able to do this, to build the pyramids.
	And imagine what that would do today.
	I mean, if we could build... I mean, I know about the Coral Castle, and this man says that he's not revealing his secret, but maybe he knows the same thing we're talking about.
	It's about transforming mass.
	In its current state, you can't do it.
	But in its transformed state, imagine.
	I mean, we could build Lord of the Rings-style temples and castles on mountaintops.
	And, you know, even these things that George Lucas is showing in the new Star Wars.
	Cities on the top of glacier mountains.
	I mean, that's all in the future.
	That's all something we'll be able to do.
	And masonry is one of the areas we benefit, which is, you know, building with stone.
	I believe that's absolutely how they did it.
	Alright, David and John both.
	Bob Lazar, I know Bob Lazar quite well.
	He's now out of town, so to speak, sort of settled down and quiet, not wanting to talk a lot, New Mexico.
	He stands by everything he originally said.
	I did extensive interviews with Bob, and his story is always the same.
	His story is never inflated, but it doesn't have to be.
	It's fantastic enough, involving element 115.
	He said this, of course, a very long time ago, when element 15 was not on the horizon, as it is now.
	Do the two of you, I'm sure you've digested the Lazar story.
	Do you buy it?
	I buy a lot of it.
	I think, I think he, his formula, the actual physics, a mathematical formula for how you create 115, which was never, you know, when he first put his formula out, it didn't exist.
	They hadn't identified 115 yet.
	They were still up in the high 90s.
	True.
	Uranium and plutonium are up in the high 90s.
	Then you get to seaborgium, which is, you know, Glennard Seaborg's particle.
	And that's up in the 100s, but Element 115 did not exist, and when they discovered it at the University of California, Berkeley, Lawrence Livermore, Lawrence Berkeley Lab, it was one of the two, when they created it, the formula was almost to a T, identical to Lazar's.
	Now, if he isn't a physicist, and a darn good one, I'll be damned.
	I mean, this guy gave us a formula, and he was right.
	They made it.
	His theory on how the craft were utilizing element 115, I disagree with.
	I don't believe they're increasing and creating a gravity field in the craft itself.
	So you don't believe in the gravity amplifiers?
	No, I think what happens is that initially you need a huge energy burst to affect a lot of mass, and then when you, just like John is using, he uses a lot of static electricity energy, which is ultra low frequency energy.
	That's right, yes.
	Almost unmeasurable in a wave sense.
	And then he starts applying a mid-range frequency and then a higher frequency.
	That's what John is doing.
	Very quickly, John, I'd like to understand the effect once underway, once you've kicked it off with a lot of RF field at low frequency, electrostatic, half million volts, whatever it is you're using, once you get this effect underway, how long after you have stopped the energy does the effect continue?
	Well, after all the machines are shut down, There's certain metal samples that tend to keep on changing, and on a very rare occasion, it was measured by the Max Planck Institute by Roland Brito and Bruno Bachmann, and it seems that the metal samples are going ahead in time a little bit.
	Going ahead in time?
	Going ahead in time.
	They're constantly changing their crystalline structures.
	And this goes on for how long?
	As far as I know, for years.
	For years?
	I have one sample here.
	Downstairs and it seems that it's a stainless steel sample one part of it is magnetic at one end Yes, and it seems to be rotting away, and I can only go by my own Calculations perhaps a piece of stainless steel sitting around rotting away.
	Yeah Yeah, it's flaking apart breaking breaking down and actually rusting And it seems to me that it could be every year that That I've had this sample, that perhaps it's 50 years onto one year.
	Alright, this may, this is again jumping off the cliff a little bit, but John, you've been producing this effect and experimenting now for a number of years.
	Have you ever considered the fact that you're also experimenting on yourself?
	In other words, you're within these fields many times.
	Have you considered the effect on your own biology?
	I am into life extension research, and the scientists that I work with, and we give many presentations and lectures, we're all very healthy.
	My partner, George Hathaway, is writing a book on yours truly and his adventures with me, and that's why we're trying to get the Canadian government to release the videos taken at the time of 1986.
	But it appears I'm in excellent health.
	I'm a quite energetic person.
	No ill effects to anybody except people that... Well, you spent a lot of time in those fields.
	Oh, I did, and especially in the 1980s.
	And occasionally in, well, since 2000, doing some of those demos for Fox TV and PLC and that.
	Any lingering effect on you, personally?
	The only thing I ever had to art was, excuse me, in around 82, I had what I called radar clicks, like little shocks in my head.
	Yes.
	And I actually had to phone my doctor, and he said, well, Knowing what you're doing, you're probably... I wouldn't worry about it.
	Then I mentioned George Hathaway, and George says, oh, he... Well, George always talks about these things, but it's like every few seconds I get a little, like, a shock.
	It's quite disturbing.
	I could move around okay.
	But, gee, I mean, it was quite disconcerting, and then after about a week or so of that, it disappeared.
	Very unusual.
	I haven't grown any, like, six fingers or...
	Didn't Tesla expose himself to a lot of those fields, too?
	I would certainly imagine that, yes.
	I feel addicted, though.
	Addicted to the effect?
	I like to put my hand by the sparks from the Tesla coils.
	You do?
	I feel it.
	It feels good to me.
	That sounds crazy.
	Yes, a little bit, John.
	Yes, a little bit, John. You know me. Right? Yeah.
	Pretty much like that, actually.
	What, about a half million volts?
	Mm-hmm.
	With a thimble on my finger, of course.
	I'd get burnt.
	I just felt that it felt good.
	You're not concerned that one of these days you're going to plop into a different dimension as a result of all this?
	I think it'd be an adventure.
	I doubt it would.
	It doesn't scare me.
	I mean, I'm not scared of death or anything like that.
	And to go into another dimension, so be it.
	I try and behave myself and keep the wishes of the Mayor of New Westminster.
	I don't know if this will surprise you or not, John, but there aren't too many people who enjoy doing that to themselves.
	With a spark?
	Yes.
	Not too many of them.
	Actually, there's a photo of a gentleman sitting on a massive insulator holding a rod with a broom on the end of it with sparks flying off of it.
	He literally charged himself up.
	Well, I didn't say that there were not...
	Other unusual people out there, John.
	I simply said there aren't too many who share that particular form of entertainment.
	I got you, Art.
	Yeah.
	Oh, well, what can I say?
	I'm different.
	I love it.
	No complaints here.
	All right.
	So do we not go after UFOs because they're ours or because we made a deal, David?
	Well, that's interesting.
	I saw, again, these, you know, digital home, digital cameras, people downloading their pictures when they get home.
	I saw this one on your site recently that shows this guy took a picture amongst a bunch of geese or birds, and there's this UFO with a long arm towing what appears to be a cargo container, you know, which is, of course, not aerodynamic in shape.
	Obviously, they're not using aerodynamic principles.
	They're using anti-gravity.
	I just imagine these guys are hauling minerals and possibly a lot of things that interest them from our planet up onto their mothership.
	And Dan actually made that proposition that maybe we made a deal in exchange for minerals and certain things that they're interested in our planet for technology.
	And we might be exchanging ideas like that.
	Well, of course, Colonel Corso disseminated technology, supposedly, from the Roswell crash.
	Now, I can imagine that those in charge of everything, if there really are such people, would be very interested in a sort of a trade that might involve what you're talking about, minerals and such, for technology.
	You really think that's underway?
	I think, when I saw that photo on your site, I mean, it just looked like it.
	It looked like cargo being, you know, moved out and to and from the planet.
	But, you know, looking at what John just said about time dilations on certain, you know, effects from the Hutchinson effect.
	Yes.
	Go to Roswell for a minute and remember that Trinity, the first nuclear bomb, was tested on July 5th, sometime between the 5th and the 9th.
	You get different dates depending on where you go.
	1945, that was the first bomb.
	Imagine these craft are hovering around, you know, wondering what these humans are doing.
	This is a huge scientific experiment.
	And they're vibrating up in the gamma spectrum, or ultraviolet spectrum, as I propose.
	And they have low mass craft, and they're invisible.
	When you detonate a nuclear bomb, you get an intense burst of gammas and all sorts of different other types of radioactivity.
	And in higher frequency dimensions, time is slowed down.
	In lower frequency dimensions, time accelerates.
	In Einstein physics, also, when you accelerate towards the speed of light, time slows down.
	And when you slow down, time accelerates relative to that.
	So, time is not a constant.
	It can be quantified depending on frequency or velocity.
	So, David, are you suggesting that we detonated an atomic weapon and brought one of their craft down, or more?
	Well, strangely, on either side of Trinity, slightly to the northwest, you have a UFO crash, same date, Plains of St.
	Augustine, and then you have Roswell just to the southeast of that.
	True.
	On either side of Trinity, and Roswell crash is two years later, July 7th through the 9th, 1947.
	Now, that's... Is it possible that the intense gamma waves, because if they're... When two wavelengths collide that are similar frequencies, they affect each other.
	But if a gamma wave crosses a low frequency waveform, it just passes right through it.
	So I think that is their weakness.
	I think high frequency waves and lasers in those frequencies distort their craft.
	I mean, I can't imagine technology that advanced crashing.
	I mean, you go from one end of the galaxy to the other, or one star system to another, and you can't fly straight when you're down on the Earth and you crash.
	But an intense gamma burst would, in a higher frequency dimension, May have distorted their craft and they both crashed on, imagine the intensity of the explosion on both sides of Trinity, you have UFO crashes.
	It's very peculiar to me.
	I'm not saying I know that for a fact, but when you look at the physics of that possibility and what John just talked about, time dilation, when you're seeing particles moving forward in time, and that also means you can move backward in time.
	That gets really interesting around Roswell.
	David, what would you say to John's detractors?
	Those who keep saying it can't be replicated, it's not real, it's all boney.
	What do you say?
	That's the ultimate question.
	I believe that the physics is there.
	I think what John stated is true.
	He needs better equipment, a far better lab, and much more precise wave measuring devices to actually study and see the wave state of matter.
	as it's transforming and as it goes into levitation.
	Again, John Hutchison and David Sirita.
	Gentlemen, welcome back.
	I believe that there is a disagreement.
	I know you wrote a paper, David, on the physics of UFO propulsion reducing the mass-gravity effect, and there may be an area here where the two of you sort of disagree on how UFOs move.
	Is that true?
	I don't know if there is.
	Well, is there?
	Let's find out.
	John, as the man who discovered the Hutchinson Effect, is it the way they move?
	Is it the way they reduce the gravity effect?
	Is that how these objects move, do you believe?
	I do believe, yes, in a way.
	Because when you consider a very heavy craft And you shield the gravity.
	Like gravity, you need a whole Earth to make something weigh something.
	And I feel that if you have this type of equipment, you can actually reduce or shield off the gravity pull.
	In certain barium compounds or ceramics, it seems to do that just a tiny bit.
	But I feel that inertia can be overcome, where you can do incredible speeds, and also that you can, let's say, turn Yeah, 90 degrees at high velocity and not feel anything.
	And not feel anything, alright.
	That... Really, I mean, when it gets into the mathematics, don't forget that I'm very visual with machinery.
	And when it gets into the mathematics of things, I cannot comprehend math models.
	I understand, John, you're a, I don't know, you're a tinkerer, an experimenter, a man, hands-on, real machine kind of guy, and not a theoretical physicist.
	David, do you agree with this?
	Yeah, the way I look at John is he's like an intuitive genius.
	Yes.
	He's intuited this stuff, and that's why, you know, I've worked for a major physicist my whole life and been on a fly on the wall and have read everything under the sun.
	Everything I can get my hands on, and I believe Dirac's equation of negative energy is probably the most profound quantum physics paper of our time.
	Was Tesla the same kind of man?
	Yes, I think.
	Who intuited a lot of what he invented.
	He wrote a paper on a unified field theory that It was not very popular, but Einstein apparently read it and said it was beyond his ability.
	Whether it was beyond Einstein's ability, or he just didn't understand it, it was a unified filter, and now the theory of everything, or unified filter, is what we are seeking.
	Which, essentially, the theory that unifies all the four major nuclear forces, the strong forces and the weak forces, into one.
	And to merge electromagnetism and gravity into a single theory was a desire in Einstein's time, and no one could prove how to do it.
	Does matter have an electromagnetic charge on it?
	And Einstein basically said no, because it's basically dead.
	You have a proton and anti-proton pair canceling each other out, and an electron-anti-electron pair canceling each other out, so the overall charge is zero.
	But I found, if you put it on a full four-dimensional model, They don't cancel each other out to zero.
	There is a differential between them that is so tiny and so weak, it's very easy to miss it.
	But I predict that that very weak differential between particle-antiparticle pairs, which you can't really see when I'm talking on a radio show, but on paper, in my paper, I demonstrate where it is.
	I believe that is the particle.
	That everyone's looking for right now, which is called the Graviton.
	We haven't found it.
	David, is there enough evidence with regard to John's work to justify, I don't know, some agency, the military perhaps, or I don't know, DARPA, somebody to come in with money and fund this man and see what he produces?
	I think we should put together a whole team, you know, John, myself, and big, hot, you The top NASA physicists and engineers, and when I proposed that to John Schuessler and also to Alan Holt at NASA, they agreed.
	They said, we would love to be spending money on stuff like this at NASA, but we can't get the money under the current administration.
	But, in the black area, I believe that we are actually making a mistake in a national security sense for the risk that another country could figure this out first.
	That means we lose air superiority.
	I mean, if you can fly craft like this and make right angle turns at a thousand miles an hour... That's right.
	You're going to... F-18s are going to be obsolete.
	The B-2 bomber, the stealth is going to be obsolete.
	And if we really don't have this stuff yet, and someone else does... How much evidence is there that others are working in this area?
	Well, I have found, you know, in the Indian Ed Daily, there's this defense contractor there that's studying UFOs, how far they've gotten in duplicating anti-gravity.
	I don't know.
	The only reports in physics journals today are only the repulsive gravity effects, where you have two positive charges or negative charges repelling each other.
	It's not real anti-gravity.
	I just think, to me, All the evidence of years that I've spent in the UFO phenomena point to that John's work is the most close, that most closely resembles what I'm seeing in the wave transforming in UFO cases.
	And that we should be spending a fortune on it.
	We should be building a hundred million dollar lab.
	And I approached, you know, guys like Joe Firmage, who sold U.S.
	Web for a billion dollars and, you know, not a word out of him.
	I mean, I've talked to him on the phone.
	Can't get him to do anything.
	So then you've got to go, well, if the free-thinking billionaires like Bill Gates and Paul Allen are too scared to put money in high-risk stuff like this, then our government should, and that would be DARPA and different levels of the military, the Air Force.
	You know, you just find the same story.
	What it comes down to with DARPA and people like that is, they say, OK, prove it.
	And they want you to set up a demonstration, and they want to see it before they open their wallets.
	They will open their wallets, but they want proof.
	They want proof, but they also will do it if Lockheed Martin approaches DARPA and says, I want a contract to do the Hutchinson effect.
	If SAIC does it.
	If they request the money, but if John Hutchison and I request the money, we're going to get... I understand, yes.
	I don't know.
	So we, it's basically our job to convince the defense contractors to apply for a contract to get into this stuff, and that is kind of what I've started.
	Yeah, I was going to say, David, you're a smart guy.
	How do you go about proving John's work to anybody at all, any middle person even?
	Trying to show it on paper, and this paper is kind of, for me, was a landmark, because Finally got it down on paper, and I'll be glad to send it to you if you want to read it.
	And it really does show the feasibility of this actually happening, and the Hutchison Effect is instrumental.
	Alright, again, it's a 50-page paper on the propulsion and physics of UFOs, reducing the mass-gravity effect, right?
	That, and breaking the speed of light and beyond, and also it involves advanced telecommunications Being able to look at light waves much higher frequently than we're looking at today with new types of Tesla coils.
	And there's a lot of things in the paper, including invisibility, you know, how to make masks go invisible.
	But I believe it's going to happen.
	I mean, what I was told is to be patient, you know, wait for an administration that does want to spend money on exotic research.
	I mean, that's why America, all the great scientists came from Europe to come here, including Tesla.
	To do their work, because in their countries, no one would fund them.
	The Avro Aero story, which is a very famous story in Canada, Avro Aero Corporation was doing almost Mach 2 in real F-Wing fighter planes before we did here in the United States.
	Diefenbaker dismantled the program, and all of the engineers got hired by Boeing and NASA.
	They were all Canadian engineers who developed the first F-Wing fighter planes here in America, and started doing Mach 1.5 and approaching Mach 2.
	And I think John Hutchison is really an intuitive genius, and he should be put in a lab with... Like he said, he doesn't do the math, but he has proven on an experimental model that this is worth pursuing.
	More interestingly, he actually builds these things.
	That's, I think, the fascinating thing about John.
	That's better than physics on paper, and now that he's proved it, even if it doesn't work every time, find out why.
	Do tests, and spend money on it, and put them in a lab.
	When I put that idea forward to John Shusore, who worked at Boeing and NASA his whole life, and also these new guys over there, they're up for it.
	They just can't get the money out of NASA can't get money.
	Well, I can certainly tell you that if you could make a piece of metal invisible, if you could disintegrate a piece of metal either way, and you could prove that, and you could show that, you would be funded to the hilt.
	Ultimate stealth technology is to make mass invisible, not just the motor radar.
	Absolutely.
	But it's slow.
	People will see a videotape and they won't believe it.
	That's right.
	And then will they get in their car or take a trip and come to John's Lab?
	His lab is crammed into an apartment.
	I know, but here's the important question.
	If they do come to John's Lab for a demonstration, are they going to walk away saying, I just saw it with my own eyes?
	Oh, I think they will if they spend enough time there, for sure.
	Do we want to just turn a blind eye to something that could mean the loss of their superiority for the United States?
	It's not worth it.
	There's too much point in saying, spend two months if you have to up there to study it.
	I mean, spend the time, spend the money, don't look at it superficially, don't breathe by this.
	It's not worth losing this position.
	I don't want to see us lose it.
	I don't want to see Islamic countries with this kind of technology.
	We'll lose our freedom.
	We won't be able to believe in God or not believe in God, be an atheist or be a Christian or a Buddhist or, you know... Well, let me ask you this.
	Freedom is the greatest thing in the world.
	Yes, it is.
	Let me ask you this.
	Why do you think that our country, you referenced this administration, but why do you think America is, I don't know, kind of on pause with regard to its space program, with regard to the kind of research we're talking about tonight?
	All of this, we're kind of on pause.
	What happened?
	Well, I really should ask these questions to some of the people I know who are frustrated the same, because there are scientists at NASA Who want to spend money on this themselves, and they have their own advanced concept for propulsion, and they can't get funding.
	It's a mistake.
	It has to do with Congress not... John Kerry didn't even have a good energy strategy.
	He didn't even do... He didn't get in the field and research what's happening with solar power and new breakthroughs in hydrogen fuel cells.
	He didn't get in the field and crawl on the ground and say, I've done my homework and here's the energy strategy.
	Congress is the same.
	They're not spending time getting to know what scientists are up to.
	We've got geniuses, stacks of them in this country, who have amazing ideas.
	And you think John here is one of them?
	I believe that.
	That's why we decided to do this show together, because I believe all of the evidence points to John's work being so important.
	It's equal to the Avro Arrow story in Canada.
	The next big revolution in aerospace is anti-gravity, and no one, even whether it's accidental or not, or if he can't do it 100% of the time, no one can do anything like this.
	There's no one on the planet, there's no lab on the planet, unless we are proposing that in Area 51 and these black project areas, they truly have mastered anti-gravity, and then they're not worried.
	They look at John and they go, well, we've already done it.
	It's kind of like Cold Fusion.
	I mean, Hans and Flashman, they couldn't get funding here.
	They had to end up going to Europe.
	Isn't that... that is so just... to me it disgusts me that we are losing the pioneering spirit that this country was built on.
	Well, maybe John should be in Europe.
	Well... Have you thought about it, John?
	I lived in Europe for two years, met a lot of scientists.
	That's how I met... was mentioned in Max Planck's group in Fraunhofer Labs.
	And they were willing to fund things, but things got political.
	And I returned to Canada here to find that my entire lab, like I used to, I wasn't always in an apartment, I always had the industrial sites.
	They sacked your lab, didn't they?
	They sacked the whole thing, and the Canadian government.
	See, what happened with the Canadian government's visit is that they basically semi-classified it when I tried to pursue for getting all the tapes, and that they said, well, this is a matter of national security.
	The Canadian Security Intelligence Service will be looking into my situation.
	You were told that?
	Or do you have... Do you actually have that on paper?
	Yes, I do.
	You do?
	I have all the stuff on paper.
	And you've seen that, David?
	Yeah, I've seen all the letters and I've read them.
	I had a whole pile of them.
	I had photocopies.
	And, you know, to me, Canada... I mean, these guys up there... I mean, the Avril Lavigne story.
	Prime Minister Diefenbaker, they were doing over Mach 2 He dismantled all the planes because the Americans told him that they weren't interested in doing Mach 2 because we had missiles.
	He destroyed the whole program, destroyed all the airplanes that were built up there, and then all the engineers get hired by Boeing and NASA down here in their revolutionized aerospace.
	John should be swallowed by the Canadian government right now.
	But no one up there, you know... No, I mean, it's like... They're taking the back seat.
	Like, yeah.
	Like, uh, NASA approached me some months ago.
	It was the Kennedy Space Center.
	Duke Pfohlenstein.
	Forgive me for mentioning her name.
	But they were having a meeting after seeing my videos.
	And they said, well, the director felt that at this point we have to focus on other projects.
	Basically, they just didn't seem to have the funds.
	Mm-hmm.
	But part of that, John, being honest, comes from this irregular ability to repeat your experiments.
	Just like Ponds and Fleshman, really.
	Well, you see, I was able to produce it for Fox Television, for Griffin Film Productions, Peter Putt Camera.
	That's impressive.
	I've done it for CTV News, for many film people.
	Over the years.
	It's just, um, how can you say it?
	It's like it's blocked somehow.
	Blocked?
	Blocked.
	I don't know if it's on a higher level, or maybe it's my own way I look.
	You know, I'm not in the business.
	I don't keep notes.
	I'm always... I understand.
	You're, um... You know, they say, well, John, you don't keep notes.
	And I say, well, it takes the fun out of what I'm doing.
	I'm sorry, I'm just... It makes it so difficult for people from official agencies that live on tracked paperwork and all that sort of thing to get anything from you.
	That doesn't mean what you're doing doesn't have value or isn't real.
	It's just that without documentation, they have nowhere to go.
	They're oriented that way completely.
	They're bureaucrats.
	They are.
	Well, that's why some of the scientists I know, they understand my situation and they perform the tests and write up documents and papers.
	I guess David, this may be where you can help John out.
	John is working at one level but that's sort of a dimension away from the people that actually could jump in
	and help, right?
	Yeah, I mean, like I said, I really believe it doesn't matter if he can't reproduce it every
	time.
	Some of the earliest scientific breakthroughs we ever had in history, including radio, couldn't be duplicated every time in the beginning until we perfected it.
	That's why he needs a team around him.
	He needs top scientists, top physicists and engineers working with him in doing this on a very large scale.
	And I think that is just a tragic mistake to not do it in the Western world.
	I mean, it is really tragic.
	And we will pay the price.
	Who's air superiority, we will pay the price.
	Oh, I see.
	We almost had that happen in 1997 through the good graces of Prince Adam Leeson's plan that was to fund me and some scientists down in Bodega Bay to set up a massive laboratory where the scientists could come in and study the effects.
	But unfortunately, due to the letters from Prince Adam, nothing ever came in, no money ever came this way except endless letters and Christmas cards.
	All right, John.
	Well, you do what you do, and you do it very well.
	And, David, I think you can be of great assistance to John by perhaps helping to get some scientists who can do enough documentation to properly present to those who would open their wallets.
	Yeah, that would be good.
	That's what you're trying?
	You know, I'm in constant contact with John, and whenever a door opens for me, I try to find a way in there, and I'm always talking to Thank you, Art.

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