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March 19, 2005 - Art Bell

02:54:27

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - John Lash - Gnostics and Archons

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	so so
	from the high desert and the great american southwest i bid you all good evening good
	morning good afternoon whatever the case may be in whatever time zone you reside in worldwide
	every single one of them covered like a blanket by this program coast to coast am
	I'm Mark Bell.
	It is my honor and privilege to be escorting you through the weekend version of the program.
	In a moment, we'll see what's the latest with, and there's a lot, with Whitley Strieger.
	Kind of a surprise guest here in the first hour for you.
	We'll be discussing things like the so-called rapture.
	That alone will get me emails you watch.
	And Whitley wrote an amazing journal article, I thought.
	Predictions 2005, the year of the death wish.
	Exactly right.
	I remember when I did my predictions at the beginning of the year, it was like a death wish.
	There's no question about it.
	They were pretty negative predictions as they go.
	In fact, by far the most negative year we've ever had.
	Maybe there's a reason for that.
	Maybe the collective out there understands something that some individuals don't.
	Listen.
	The webcam photograph that I've got up, I think is pretty cool.
	Yesterday, Ramona and myself were in the house, and a thunder began in the sky.
	You could hear a whop, whop, whop, whop.
	And here came this... For once, for once, I had the idea soon enough to run and get my digital camera.
	And then I ran outside.
	Running outside first, when something's around, is not good.
	Because then you have to run back in, get the camera, run back out.
	By then, it's too late.
	This time, I got the camera first.
	And I went outside, and here is this thundering black helicopter just ripping right over the house.
	So I pointed up and went, click.
	And there you have it.
	As a matter of fact, the digital camera was good enough to completely stop the rotors.
	You know, they're really going around at a pretty good speed, but the digital camera stopped them cold, and there is the black helicopter that buzzed our house yesterday morning, and I thought you might enjoy seeing that.
	And believe me, when they're that close, that low, and they're thundering over your house, things begin shaking on the shelf.
	So, you know, there's something going on out here.
	One very black helicopter immediately above my house.
	All right, coming up in a moment, we will venture forth with Whitley Strieber.
	some rough stuff ahead I guarantee.
	As you know I'm a pretty keen observer of the pace of events.
	That's why the book, The Quickening, and then, of course, with Whitley, the coming global superstorm, I think I'm a keen observer of events anyway.
	They certainly seem to be accelerating, let me put it that way.
	Here is Whitley Streber, who obviously agrees with me, or I agree with him, I don't know what, but he wrote this journal which really caught my attention.
	Predictions, 2005, Year of the Death Wish.
	Hey Whit.
	Hey Art, yep, I delayed posting my predictions for the year because the same thing that you came across, there's just too much bad news and I I thought to myself, well, there must be something more that I can do than just write a list of things that could go wrong.
	And every time I sat down, I knew things shut up.
	So what I did was instead to try to see behind kind of where we are now and what is going right and what is going wrong.
	And what is going right is that Two things.
	First, a lot of people around the world are aware of this problem.
	Even the Chinese government has declared that there is an environmental emergency taking place, which is progress.
	In fact, the only major national government left in the world that is ignoring it is the United States.
	That would be us, yes.
	That would be us.
	That's exactly correct.
	And that gets to Immediately, in my mind, to the death wish.
	And in the journal entry on my website, which is unknowncountry.com, if there's anyone who doesn't know that, the death wish is when... There have been experiments, quite a number of them, where rats have been confined in a very, very small space.
	Lots and lots of rats.
	And they go through A series of events in their little world that are very much like the 20th century and like our society is now.
	Because this planet is badly overpopulated and we feel it deep down inside ourselves.
	Don't the rats end up killing each other?
	Killing each other and themselves, that's correct.
	And themselves, that's pretty key.
	So they don't just reduce the population to a manageable point, they end up killing and then committing suicide?
	Well, it's variable.
	It depends on the colony and the particular study and the way it was done and the degree to which the overpopulation was allowed to continue, just how badly they die back.
	They also become impotent, they become Sexually interested in their own sex.
	A lot of things happen to them as they get more and more trapped in this kind of a situation.
	And we need to think about this because one of the things that is happening to us now is a lot of people are getting what is essentially a death wish.
	I refer, of course, to the rapture.
	The idea That they would be raptured away, as I say in my journal, by a heartless, mythical Jesus that self-deluded people have conjured out of their own ignorance and greed.
	And that's what it is.
	It is self-delusion.
	The rapture stems from the work of two people, John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Schofield, who was a disciple of his.
	When?
	Well, in the late 19th century.
	Like, Darby died in 1882, and by the time Schofield died in 1921, the idea was contained and integrated into the Schofield Bible.
	The specific biblical interpretation is called dispensationalism, and it mostly revolves around a statement in Thessalonians, 1 Thessalonians 4, which is, For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangels called, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.
	And the dead in Christ will rise first.
	Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
	And so we shall always be with the Lord.
	This caught up together with them in the clouds is the rapture.
	So, in other words, Woodley, a lot of people believe, as part of their religious dogma now, that there's going to be this rapture.
	That when the, you know what, hits the fan, they will be yanked up and saved before the suffering begins.
	That's what it boils down to, right?
	And it goes deeper.
	Beyond that, they believe That it is sinful to do anything that might delay this or prevent this.
	That's the death wish.
	Yeah, that is a death wish kind of, isn't it?
	Because that means any natural thing that comes along, like the bird flu, for example, which has, what, about a 75% mortality rate, they would feel, what, that it would be wrong to try and stop it because it might be part of this rapture?
	Exactly.
	Part of the end times.
	Yikes.
	And, unfortunately, such people are powerful now.
	They are, in fact, in political control of this country.
	Not necessarily as office holders, but as one of the larger voting blocs that we have.
	And we are about to see soon a new Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, because Justice Rehnquist is dying.
	George Bush will nominate someone.
	He's liable to nominate someone out of that community, of the Christian Reconstruction community, which are all more or less linked together.
	The Christian Reconstruction community believes the fallacy that the Founding Fathers were essentially fundamentalist Christians.
	But gosh, Whitley, do you honestly think that such a nominee could make it through the vetting process of the Congress?
	I don't know, Art.
	I think that would be amazing.
	I mean, if they knew that of him, they would surely go there, and would that affect Supreme Court decisions?
	Hell yeah!
	Yes, it sure would.
	Like the Christian Reconstruction Movement.
	They point to the Founding Fathers, and you know, I thought to myself when I was reading some of this stuff, that essentially we should push aside the Constitution and replace it with biblical law.
	Not unlike the Taliban.
	But the problem is, if you look at... Well, like, for example, one of the most... They say all of the Founding Fathers were interested in Christianity, and it's true.
	But a lot of them were.
	I mean, I would accept Benjamin Franklin.
	He certainly wasn't.
	But not Thomas Jefferson.
	He did a translation of the New Testament called the Jefferson Bible.
	But the Jefferson Bible is his idea Of what parts of the Gospels were really said by Christ.
	He, in effect, edited the Gospels to his belief of the actual words of Christ and the actual life of Christ.
	It does not contain a word about the resurrection.
	It ends with Christ's death.
	So it's not really there.
	It's not.
	This was a man who was a very, very unique, advanced thinker in terms of his Christianity.
	He did not believe that Christ rose from the dead.
	And you can't point to a founding father who was more interested in Christianity.
	So these movements, dispensationalism, the rapturous movement, all of these extreme Christian Reconstruction movements that are... The Christian Reconstructionists are responsible for the fights about putting up the Ten Commandments in public places.
	Yes.
	And, of course, a lot of people go along with this without realizing quite what is going on, or quite who is really behind it, and what they ultimately want to do.
	Because, in and of itself, it seems like a good idea.
	I mean, I have to admit, I try to follow the Ten Commandments, but I see no reason why they shouldn't be up in public places.
	But when I see who's behind it, I get scared.
	And, you know, we live, we're like, there's a sort of Damocles hanging over our heads in this world.
	For example, if a great terrorist act were to suddenly destroy the government of the United States, which is something so serious and so of such concern that U.S.
	Congress has recently been dealing with institution survival issues and trying to bring out a, take through a bill that will guide the way to the survival of institutions should that happen.
	So it's a pretty serious threat.
	It sure is.
	If it happened, the chances of these extremists, who would then be the most organized force in the country, taking the country over are high.
	God, what a thought.
	I mean, what a thought.
	Extremism at any extreme, for lack of a better word, scares me.
	And of course, that's what's going on with those who wish us dead right now.
	We're not converted, therefore we should die.
	Should we become that extremist in our views, then there surely would be a world war, wouldn't there?
	Well, you know, Europe is not with us on this, the whole Christian, the whole extreme fundamentalist Christian thing.
	There are pockets of those people, people with these extraordinary beliefs in Europe and somewhat more in the UK.
	The reason, though, is that they've been there and done that.
	Europe suffered from 700 years of religious tyranny.
	The Templars came to this country, Columbus came to this country, Verrazano came to this country, ultimately the Founding Fathers came to this country, the Pilgrims came to this country, all to escape from religious tyranny of various kinds.
	Well, can you, Whitley, can you give us some idea of how pervasive You think these kind of views are in U.S.
	government now and in the population in general now?
	Percentage-wise, how many?
	Well, it's hard to put a number on it.
	It's something lower than the media would have you believe.
	It's like 25% of the population.
	It's probably in the three to four million range for people who ...are actively willing to say, yes, I would like to see the world destroyed in order to have a rapture.
	A lot more people will say, well, oh, I don't care about that global warming and stuff.
	If that all happens, then I'll be raptured.
	Yes.
	I know, I've heard it on this program, Whitley.
	People call me and they tell me on the air, they tell me that.
	That all of this, well, yes, is happening, but it's headed towards something that's going to be wonderful.
	Yeah, but they're participating in a sin.
	It's the sin of greed.
	Since when would the same Jesus Christ, who died on the cross, come back and act in the way he's supposed to, that the rapturists say he was going to act by lifting up one little group and throwing all of the rest in some sort of sulfurous horror, where the lifted group apparently get pleasure from watching their suffering?
	Well, I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of emails now saying that I will be in the Sulphur.
	Believe me.
	And that you will be too, for even talking about this.
	With those characters any day.
	Well, why is it a dangerous philosophy?
	From what we explain, folks, that people would just let things happen, whether they're environmental, or it would be some new disease, or it would be God knows what.
	We always have something, it seems like.
	That they would do nothing to prevent what they consider, you know, something from God that's going to end it all and send them to paradise.
	Well, the illusion that, like, the environmental thing is bigger than us, in part it is.
	And I'd like to talk, if we have time I can start now, about some really incredible research that's come down recently.
	Well, the bottom line is that when we wrote Superstorm, and then, for me, the quickening before that, I imagined things progressing, you know, at a certain somewhat terrifying but predictable pace that one, you know, who's 50 or 60 now could be, you know, fairly comfortable with.
	That may no longer be true.
	It's really ripping out there, folks, isn't it?
	Well, yeah.
	Well, like, for example, last week it was discovered that Mount Kilimanjaro is going to have a snowless peak this year for the first time in 11,000 years.
	It had been predicted by scientists, but for 15 years from now, not this year.
	Right.
	That's what's going on.
	But that's not the only indicator of its sort, is it?
	I mean, the North Pole, the South Pole, all the changes going on, they seem to be occurring faster than even, you know, the most alarmist scientists said they would occur, or might occur.
	That's right.
	They really are.
	And we have, for example, one of the problems that we're going to be facing that we really didn't fully understand when we wrote Superstorm.
	I mean, nobody did.
	Relatively recent science.
	After I wrote my journal entry, I got a letter from an Arctic scientist saying, I'm amazed that you even know about this, because I've just seen it in people's handwritten notes so far.
	We haven't even really gotten to do the papers about it, but I have heard about it.
	And that is that as the Arctic permafrost melts, it releases methane into the atmosphere.
	Methane.
	Methane.
	When there's methane stored, so-called frozen methane, under the ocean, and if the water gets too warm, that methane will rise.
	And nobody's really sure where the trigger point is there, but there are places in this world that are so extraordinarily endangered by this.
	If the methane should become gaseous on a shelf off the coast of Norway in the North Sea, It will create a tsunami that will sweep across all of the eastern half of England.
	All of it.
	Can I stop you and ask you a question?
	I remember a couple of specials I saw lately about lakes that apparently stored methane gas and then for some reason, I think it was volcanically related somehow or another, suddenly released the gas.
	There's a lake in Africa.
	Is that right?
	So, the water, whether it's seawater or even not, absorbs methane and holds it, is that correct?
	Well, it's held in soils underneath the water.
	It absorbs it and is held in soils, and then it can be, and then when the soils are heated, it's released.
	And this has happened before.
	It happened, I think, 7,000 years ago, there was a big methane spike.
	And 15,000 years ago, a methane spike ended the last ice age, The temperature at the Arctic at the North Pole at one point went up to 85 degrees, and one fine day, all hell broke loose.
	This gigantic storm occurred, and the world was plunged back into Ice Age-like conditions for about a thousand years, but not enough to make a permanent Ice Age.
	All right, Whitley, hold it right there.
	We're at a break point at the bottom of the hour.
	So the, uh, the Earth, in effect, would have a, I don't know, a giant, gaseous incident.
	And we might be the victims.
	Hmm.
	Boomba is right.
	Good morning, everybody.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
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	You hear my heartbeat in this car you know that the heart of his cause
	Like the TT Sire, I'm in You
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	Yeah Actually, this is kind of like the Rapture theme song.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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	800-893-0903. From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM
	with Art Bell.
	Oh, God bless Fast Blast, and I just got a beaut, too.
	In a moment, we'll present it to Whitley.
	Ah, so predictable.
	Actually, two fast blasts to read to you, Whitley.
	From Robert in Sturgis, South Dakota, the following.
	Prayers requested for Ann Streber, and Whitley now talks like this, rather inconsistent.
	And from Bob in Pomo, aren't your anti-Christian messages, finally, in capital letters, loosened upon us?
	Sorry, the rapture is not extreme.
	It's been around and mainstream for years and years now.
	Your idea that it might be dangerous because God needs believers to help for implementation is, in capital letters, very silly.
	Take them on, Whit.
	Well, because God needs believers to help for implementation is a very sinister phrase.
	One wonders what might be behind it.
	Number one.
	Number two, I am a Christian.
	Yes, so am I. I am a very deeply faithful Christian, which is one of the reasons I am so against this stuff.
	Because it smirches Christianity.
	It is the exact opposite It's an extreme of Christianity.
	Of course, and it transforms what I believe to be the most ethical and the most morally perfect document that has ever come to lie in the hands of man, which is the four Gospels.
	But there are those who would say... It's a street of hate, and I'm sorry, I just don't buy it.
	I know, but they would say, but in the service of God, you cannot be too extreme.
	You know, I spent some time, I've spent a fair amount of time in various churches where I was not known to be who, I was not recognized as who I am, and I sat and listened to a church group talking about lying for Christ.
	Huh?
	Lying for Christ.
	In other words, going out and saying and doing things that were not true in order To promote the Christian message.
	Like what?
	Well, it was small stuff.
	It wasn't huge.
	I mean, it wasn't some enormous... It had to do with a political campaign in San Antonio.
	I don't want to get into the details there, but they're just boring.
	But they were willing to go out and to lie about this poor guy that was running because he was a Catholic, basically.
	So, lying for Christ, huh?
	And they called it lying for Christ.
	And I thought to myself, somebody's gotten lost.
	Yikes!
	Somebody's gotten lost down this path here.
	We have this beautiful path, good news laid out for us in the four Gospels.
	But it's easy to get lost in this path.
	You know, the Pharisees play such a huge role in the Gospels, and goodness me, It's hard to go into a church these days and not see that it's full of Pharisees.
	People better look at themselves, because it's all too easy to become a Pharisee and to begin to live by the holier-than-thou delusions of the proud.
	If I heard that in a church, I'd probably faint.
	I'm lying for Christ!
	Oh, well.
	Okay, so... But, you know, the fact that I'm getting a lot of this sort of thing in response to what we're discussing tonight, which really we do consider extremism, obviously.
	There are quite a number of people who don't consider it extremist, Whitley.
	And the question is how big their number are and whether they really will go and try to enhance the speed of the process for God.
	Well, it's working very well right now.
	The United States, I'll give you an example, the EPA has done less of fining of companies doing polluting just in 2004 than it did in the previous 15 years.
	And 15 years ago, the economy was a lot smaller than it is now.
	So you're suggesting this comes from the very top?
	Oh, this comes from the very top.
	I don't know, I have to be honest with you, I don't know where the president stands on the rapture.
	I know he's supposedly now a fundamentalist Christian, but my knowledge of his family goes back a long time.
	My dad, well, it just goes back a long time.
	Let me put it that way.
	He certainly was no... He was a hell-raising young man.
	That I do know.
	I guess he found religion, which is fine.
	I respect that.
	It's a wonderful thing.
	Whether he's gone so far as to believe in the rapture to the extent that he might try to derail efforts on this part of this planet of us to save ourselves, I don't know.
	I don't have any personal belief that he's like that.
	Such a president, if you really believe that, would probably be sabotaging the Middle East Peace Initiative.
	Well, exactly.
	And if he believed something like that and had any honor, he would also say it publicly.
	But I do think That there are a lot of people in the administration, not necessarily at high places in the administration, but... Who do believe it.
	Who do believe it, and who do act on it, and who do live by it.
	And whose beliefs color the way policy is structured and the way it's expressed, which is one of the reasons that despite everything, despite the fact that at a very important Christian conference last week, There was an effort made to say, to declare, that evangelical Christians respect that God gave us the stewardship of the earth, not to simply do with it what we will, but to keep it on behalf of its creator.
	The administration... And not just use it until it's used up.
	Right.
	Administration representatives Prevailed upon the conference, not to really promulgate that, I don't think.
	I haven't seen the final conference papers yet, so I can't be sure, but I know they were there trying to.
	Now, were those people doing that because secretly, in their hearts, they fear that improving the environment will delay the rapture?
	Or were they doing it for political reasons, or what?
	But why would anyone, seeing the way this world is changing, and any idiot can see it, it doesn't take a genius, still be Refusing to acknowledge the existence of the problem.
	Although, you know something, Whitley?
	I've got to be absolutely honest with you, and I don't know if it fits in or not, but I'm not convinced that even if we took our best shot at, in some way, stopping what otherwise seems like it's going to occur, that we could have any effect at all.
	I'm not convinced of that.
	Well, I'm with you there.
	I hear you.
	What I think is this, and this gets back to something I said I was going to discuss a little earlier, which is this phenomenal discovery made by these statisticians, that there are regular extinctions on this planet every 62 million years.
	Oh yes.
	And here's the most extraordinary part of this.
	The most, the one that, there is one happening now.
	It started, just as we said in Superstorm, approximately 3 million years ago, when biodiversity began to decline.
	It began to decline because Central America rose up out of the ocean, interrupted the trans-tropical current, it was called, and destabilized the Earth's climate, causing this fluctuating back and forth between ice ages and interglacials.
	And this has caused the number of different animals and plants on the Earth to start declining.
	So we've been in one of these extinction events for 2.8 million years.
	Statistically, each one lasts about 3 million years, and then has a climax during which 80-90% of all species are destroyed.
	And we're in the beginning of the climax now, and we're part of it.
	Now, God did give us a gift.
	How do we make that assessment, Whitley, that we have begun this climax that takes most life off Earth?
	Well, because the number of species dying off has been accelerating exponentially for 15,000 years, and it's going really very quickly now.
	So the numbers say it.
	The numbers say it.
	Now, however, there's something else in here that wasn't ever there in any of these previous extinction events.
	And that's us, and the gift God gave us, which is our minds, to use to make something else happen in this world that doesn't involve us all dying.
	And I think we can do this.
	There's no question about the fact that we're going to go through this cycle in some way again.
	It's going to get hotter, and then there's going to be another Ice Age.
	We can't stop that.
	But we may be able to plan for it, And tailor it in such a way that we make it through.
	And that is what we need to be trying to do.
	That's the only thing I've ever been able to come up with, that we ought to look and be aware of what's happening, begin growing things where they're going to grow and not die, preventing starvation worldwide and that sort of thing.
	That all makes sense.
	We could certainly and should be doing that.
	And of course, we're not.
	No, we're not.
	Well, there's the Kyoto Protocol, which is an attempt to do something, but it's a very iffy one, because the fact of the matter is, the young trees, it's a big tree planting program, basically, which is wonderful, but young trees give off carbon dioxide before they start absorbing it.
	There's going to be a period of time when the Kyoto Protocol is going to be adding to the problem, not ameliorating it.
	Well, I thought very hard when the United States declined to sign the protocol, and I'm not sure... You know, having thought it through, I might not have made a different decision.
	Had I been president, I might not have signed it either.
	I mean, it would put such a grinding halt to so much of our economy.
	It's a real problem for our country.
	As a president, I don't think I could have made that call.
	It's quite a different situation for the United States than it is for other countries that have signed it.
	But there is something else.
	Look at the DuPont company, which is a big enterprise that has done absolute wonders with its own emissions, reducing its own emissions.
	That emissions control is a major profit center for DuPont.
	They're making money reducing emissions.
	And that is, like, you could never get the board of directors of Exxon to even entertain that as a possibility.
	But it is possible, even for oil companies.
	Phillips is showing that they can do it.
	It is definitely possible.
	Creative science in these companies can work wonders.
	But it takes a will, and it takes a desire, and above all, it takes leadership.
	And for example, on Unknown Country, on the QuickWatch, Superstorm QuickWatch page, if you just scroll down the page, you find the Canadian Prime Minister's Challenge of what individuals can do to reduce their carbon output.
	And it's not hard.
	It's just a few little things.
	But you can reduce your carbon output by tons a year.
	It's not difficult.
	One of the reasons this whole death-wish thing is going on is because of a lack of leadership.
	People think we're helpless, and it's all going to happen anyway, and there's no way to stop it.
	Ultimately, we are part of a larger natural cycle, and yes, things are going to happen, but it does not have to destroy us.
	We can actually use it, and my guess would be that God being God and man being man, it'll turn out.
	If we put our minds to this, the changing cycle will turn out to be able to make life better.
	I hope you're correct.
	I guess if it's not a complete extinction event, there are things we can do to end up a little bit better off on the other side.
	But I really am not convinced that we can affect The outcome all that much.
	I'm looking at this very hard.
	You're very optimistic on it and I'm kind of pessimistic.
	Well I think that, I'm not sure, I think ultimately in 5,000 years this planet is going to be in one of two states.
	It's either going to be in an ice age or it's going to be in a runaway global warming condition where What happened basically was that the ice age cycle was defeated, and a lot of gases kind of locked into the atmosphere, and it began to trap heat, and it overheated, in which case it'll be sterile.
	And if that's the case, well, this particular phase of life has ended, and eventually the planet, the atmosphere will get less less locked in like that and less
	the heat will gradually radiate out there will be solar changes in over millions of years
	it'll freshen up again but without us well in behalf of those who are here right now and
	listening to this broadcast I think the question is will this continue at some
	understandable rate of change or decline if you want to look at it that way from
	a human point of view or will there come a moment where like a light switch
	is thrown something truly awful is going to happen and And will that occur during our lifetimes?
	That would be the answer that most people would be searching for.
	Both of those things are going to happen.
	There's no doubt in my mind about it.
	We're going to have things like, well, for example, Cyclone Ingrid that just tore up parts of Australia and had an extraordinary lifespan.
	uh... became a m uh... started out of an extremely severe cyclone
	uh... people hit land became minor without out the c gain more strength and
	continued for nine days doing this been a lot of that in the last one of the members of the
	hurricane in florida last year yes
	that sort of thing is going to come like a client like a feature
	and if you can if you'd live in certain parts of the united states you probably
	have noticed that it's always cloudy now and That never used to be the case.
	Storms on steroids, sort of.
	Right, yeah.
	And lots more cloud cover.
	Now, as far as these sudden breaks are concerned, things like if methane starts outgassing from the sea floor, Well, we're in trouble.
	And there's, unfortunately, no way to turn it around.
	You can't, we won't be able to stop it if it starts.
	However, the upside of this is the discovery of all of these, of all of these hydrates of methane down there, mean that there's a gigantic energy reservoir that can be safely capped.
	In other words, this methane would be a wonderful fuel.
	If we can certainly use it.
	And to give you an idea of how much is down there, There are 10,000 gigatons of it on the seafloor.
	In the air, all of the carbon in the air consists of 700 gigatons, and that's it.
	Wow.
	So this is absolutely, it would be an inexhaustible energy supply if we could figure out how to use it before it gets to us.
	So, you know, it's always a mixed bag in nature.
	And nature's a funny way of always adding up perfectly.
	In other words, two and two always equal four in nature.
	We're always trying for 3.9 or 4.1 or something.
	Whitley, basically, what happens if it were to suddenly release?
	If something caused it to relatively suddenly release, what would the results be?
	Well, it depends on where it releases.
	If it releases in, like, in this structure off of Norway, it's gonna be the most devastating catastrophe in history.
	If it releases in the Gulf of Mexico, which is actually a more probable one because of the fact that the Gulf is a lot warmer than the North Sea, then what you're going to see is millions of tons of methane bubbling up to the surface, and conceivably, there are going to be methane sinks developing that will suffocate people if, when the air stops moving, extremely dangerous.
	It's also flammable, incidentally, which Wouldn't help any.
	But it would be an extraordinary and dangerous situation and the methane would be rising into the atmosphere.
	So the first warning might be some poor slob out on a fishing boat somewhere and suddenly not having oxygen.
	Right.
	It happened around the lake in Africa.
	People just suddenly keeled over because they were suffocated.
	That would be a possibility.
	Another possibility is that Onshore winds and suddenly people at the beach would start keeling over because they couldn't breathe anymore.
	It's odorless, by the way.
	Something like that might happen.
	What's interesting to me is, if it happens during the time when people who are in power now are running the thing, how are they going to explain themselves?
	You know, because it's really their fault that we haven't done more to prevent this kind of thing.
	And on that note, we're out of time.
	Buddy, as always.
	Man, you laid down a couple buttes here.
	Thank you.
	Bye-bye.
	Have a good night, Wade.
	You too, sir.
	Good night.
	Alright.
	That's a little something to think about in the first hour, huh?
	Coming up in the next hour, from a country unknown, because I don't know this country code, is a gentleman named John Lash from the high deserts.
	Middle of the night, which is just where we belong.
	I'm Art Vail.
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	It is.
	Coming up in a moment, John Lash, and I didn't know where that country code was.
	Now I do.
	He is in Belgium.
	All the way to Belgium we're about to go.
	Author and teacher John Lash is one of the foremost exponents of the power of myth.
	Now listen carefully to direct and shape an individual's life as well as history itself.
	John is a lifelong student of world mythology, tantra, buddhism, gnosticism, the pre-christian mysteries, alchemy, astrology, and naked eye astronomy.
	He's traveled widely throughout the world and has lived in Japan, the UK, Greece, France, Spain, and obviously now Belgium.
	John's published works include The Seeker's Handbook, The Complete Guide to Spiritual Pathfinding, Twins and the Double, The Hero, Manhood and Power, and Quest for the Zodiac.
	John is co-founder and principal author of Metahistory.org, sponsored by the Marion Institute.
	In addition, John founded the Institute for Creative Mythology in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
	And now, after saying all of that, I believe what we're going to be finding out about tonight is what very ancient pagans knew about aliens.
	And apparently, the answer is, quite a bit.
	We'll be right back.
	I rather think I have never had a guest come to us from Belgium.
	So this is a first.
	John Lash, welcome to the program.
	Thank you.
	It's a pleasure to be here.
	I'm telling you.
	John, I get some of the better connections over the kind of distances you and I are talking over right now than I do right next door.
	It puzzles me.
	It's remarkable, isn't it?
	Yes, actually it is.
	You're in where, exactly?
	I'm near Brussels.
	I'm outside of the city, actually, in the country.
	Okay.
	Are you an expatriate?
	What has you in Belgium?
	Well, I've lived in Europe for about 15 years now.
	And one of the reasons for that is because I have been researching this question of what the ancient pagans knew, what they believed.
	Oh.
	And so I've done a lot of my research over here where they lived, and I visited a lot of the famous sacred sites and places where they practiced their religion and so forth.
	Well, as you know, UFOs And aliens are a very favorite subject of mine, of course, and of many, many other people.
	So any evidence that they existed in ancient times would be of intense interest to us.
	What's the case for it, John?
	Well, there's a very convincing case, I believe.
	I'm currently putting together a book called The Gnostic Legacy, in which I'm going to summarize some of the discoveries I've made regarding what these pagans knew.
	And, as in any discussion of UFOs, the question of evidence arises, and it also comes down to The discussion of what I would call the hardware and the software.
	Well, evidence, even in the modern day, is pretty hard to come by.
	It is indeed.
	But what you and I are talking about right now is really incredible.
	I mean, we're talking about what they knew in very, very ancient times.
	Well, yeah, this would be in the times of at least 2,000 years ago.
	And going back before that, well, it's hard to say, but for a very, very long time.
	I'm convinced that these pagan seers, as you might call them, seers, initiates, shamans is what actually they were, had a very sophisticated level of awareness.
	They had developed psychic faculties of various kinds, and they were able to practice remote viewing, for instance.
	And we know today that there's a certain amount of UFO literature that is based on remote viewing of aliens.
	Of course, but how do we know they did it then?
	Where is that evidence?
	Oh, that evidence is in certain texts that I draw upon.
	There is not, I want to say, Art, that there is not a great deal of written and textual evidence about what the pagans knew.
	There are two reasons for that.
	One is that most of the evidence, most of what they wrote, and they did write a tremendous amount, they filled libraries in fact, but most of that literature has been destroyed.
	And so only certain fragments remain that we can say came directly from the hands of these initiates.
	So if you go all the way to Belgium, I take it you're looking for that hard evidence, right?
	I am indeed, and there's a library not far from where I am right now that is a world-class library that has facsimiles of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic library, and things of that sort.
	I do a fair amount of my research over there.
	I would imagine.
	What have you discovered?
	I mean, what did they believe and know?
	Well, what I've discovered mainly, Art, is that there was a special group of These pagans, who were called Gnostics, and they seem to have had the special knowledge regarding these aliens.
	They seem to have, in a sense, been dedicated to the particular task of investigating what alien intrusion is, and how it affects us, and where those beings originate.
	And so I have been concentrating for my textual sources, for the text evidence, on the writings of these Gnostics, which as you probably know were discovered in December 1945 in Egypt.
	Yes.
	And what I've put together over a period now of more than 20 years is a picture of their Understanding of the cosmos.
	They were cosmologists.
	They had a sense of the history of the solar system that we live in.
	Which matches our modern understanding of it?
	In some remarkable ways it does.
	Indeed it does.
	In fact, it matches some of the latest and most fascinating discoveries of modern science regarding, for instance, the structure of our galaxy, the position of the Earth in the galaxy,
	and various conditions that might have occurred that produced the formation of our world.
	They were known, the Gnostics were known by the way, this is no secret and nothing that I'm adding to the existing
	evidence.
	They were known for being stargazers and for having a very profound knowledge of the sky and of the heavenly bodies.
	So it's not surprising that they had an advanced cosmology that matches, in some respects, what we're developing today.
	How could they know all of that then and that knowledge be gone?
	Well, as I just said, one of the reasons why that knowledge disappeared was because in the written forms, in the many scrolls and papyruses that they wrote and composed, which existed into the hundreds of thousands, For instance, at the famous library in Alexandria, in Egypt.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	These documents were destroyed wholesale over a period of a number of centuries, from about 150 A.D.
	down to, well, quite well into the Middle Ages.
	And the destruction, I have to tell you that I've studied this for a long time.
	At first I was rather skeptical, but I'm convinced now that the destruction must have been Massive and deliberate, because there's very, very little that remains of a vast body of writings.
	It's as if, to give you just a rough example, someone came along and wiped out all the libraries connected with the University of California, on all the campuses.
	Do we know who did this?
	Yes, this was something that happened.
	It's documented, very well documented, by historians.
	And, you know, even historians who don't interest themselves particularly in the occult side of this question.
	There was a conflict at the beginning of the Christian era between the people who were converted to the new faith of Christianity and the pagans.
	And at that time, for various reasons, the converts to the new religion felt that the knowledge held by the pagans was something that they didn't believe should survive.
	And therefore, that knowledge must be destroyed and history must be rewritten.
	This is exactly what happened.
	This is exactly what happened.
	And we are so lucky That these Nag Hammadi documents, which are practically the only original or near-original pagan writings referring explicitly to an alien species and how it affects us, we're so lucky that they survived.
	It's just a flake, really, of an enormous volume of literature that must have existed before, say, 400 A.D.
	Okay, John.
	Well, with what has survived and what we do know, How much detail did they really know about, did they perceive what they were seeing as alien creatures?
	Absolutely, and they described them in quite vivid terms, which correspond to certain current day descriptions, particularly of two types.
	They described two types, that which we call the reptilian type, And that which might be called the embryo type, that is the grays, you know.
	I call them the embryo type because their bodies, you could say that their bodies, rather resemble a fetus that was prematurely born.
	Out of curiosity, how did they come to the realization, if you know, John, That these were alien creatures as opposed to some sort of religious manifestation or supernatural manifestation?
	Good question, good question.
	Let me see if I can just give a little background on that answer before I go directly to the answer.
	Sure.
	There's a very famous man named Mircea Eliade he taught at the University of Chicago, History of Religions.
	And he was one of the great comparative mythologists of the 20th century.
	He's a little less known than Joseph Campbell, but certainly of the same stature.
	And one of Eliade's books was called Shamanism, and it's a classic text on Shamanism, and he coined this term, Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy.
	It's a very famous term in the study of Shamanism and history of religions.
	What I believe is that the pagan seers and the Gnostics, who were the cream of the crop of pagan seers, were actually highly sophisticated shamans.
	And over many, many generations, they practiced the cultivation of occult powers, as I said, remote viewing, telekinesis, clairaudience, clairvoyance.
	They developed these powers, which is known to be what is done in the path of shamanism.
	You could compare them, Art, to very advanced Hindu or Tibetan yogis and lamas.
	It's known that these people, by their practices that they do, develop what are called siddhis.
	Siddhis are occult powers, or psychic faculties as we would call them.
	So, if we're willing to allow that there was this very long and ancient tradition, It's quite probable that these Gnostics, who were the last generation of shamans in the pagan tradition, had a high, high level of perception, and they also had behind them, this is the key thing, the experience of many generations, of many initiates who came before them, who had tested these methods and explored other worlds through these psychic powers,
	So I believe that they were qualified not only to delve into other worlds and to see things that are perhaps not ordinarily seen, but also to evaluate correctly what they were seeing.
	It's a very important point you raise.
	In fact, you're actually asking, what is the reliability of this evidence they provide?
	Well, yes, by asking how they discerned aliens versus what you would have thought they would have come up with would be some sort of religious manifestation of some sort.
	Yes.
	Right.
	Well, they did consider that aliens are involved in the religious life of humanity, but they were very, very specific about these particular aliens that they described in the Gnostic text, in the Gnostic text of Nag Hammadi.
	They call them archons.
	I don't know if you've heard that word.
	I have.
	Archons.
	Is that correct?
	Yeah.
	Archons.
	A-R-C-H-O-N-S.
	Got it.
	Yeah.
	There was a video game that was called Archons.
	I'm not surprised.
	And I played Archons.
	All right.
	So, their view of the Archons was very elaborate, believe me.
	They had, first of all, as I said earlier, a cosmology.
	They had a whole description of how the Earth evolved, how the solar system evolved.
	And one of the things that they said in their cosmology was that before the Earth was actually formed, Before the planet, as we know now, was actually formed into an environment where we could live.
	Yes.
	That the solar system was formed around the Earth, rather like a crust.
	They distinguished, this is really remarkable, they distinguished between the inorganic nature of the solar system and the organic nature of our planet, the Earth.
	Now, of course, this corresponds to what science knows today.
	As a matter of fact, it's the basis of what's sometimes called the Gaia Hypothesis.
	Yes.
	When James Lovelock developed the Gaia Hypothesis, he was struck, initially, back around 1975, by the fact that Mars doesn't have a biologically alive atmosphere, but the Earth does.
	Why is it that the Earth is the only planet in our solar system That seems to have a biologically alive atmosphere.
	The explanation that the Gnostics gave to that was that the Earth is not exactly really a part of the solar system.
	It's more or less kind of captured in the solar system.
	It's a remarkable idea.
	And that the chemistry of the solar system is largely inorganic.
	While the chemistry of our world and the biosphere is organic.
	And so they claim that these archons were formed in the early stage of the inorganic development of the solar system.
	They are inorganic beings.
	And they actually belong to the solar system, and they inhabit the solar system, but not the Earth.
	Well, should we regard them, really, then, as extraterrestrials, or as As something that came along with creation itself?
	Well, the Gnostics were very specific in their cosmology.
	They said that they came along with the evolution of the solar system.
	Yes.
	But not with the particular evolution of the Earth.
	One of the things about these pagan seers and their vision of creation Was that they saw the Earth in a very special light, and they connected it with actually a goddess.
	And they believed, or I believe they actually knew on the basis of their investigations, that these Archons are kind of like our cosmic cousins.
	Yeah, you could say that.
	But they are extraterrestrials in the sense that they cannot live and do not live on the planet with us.
	But their matter, or their energy, that was created along with the original creative energy itself.
	Yes?
	Their matter was created along with the matter of the solar system.
	But this is very specific cosmology.
	It's very precise the way that it's described in the Gnostic creation myth.
	It did seem somewhat self-centered, or, you know, Earth-centered, right?
	In other words, Very special with respect to everything else we can see.
	Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that the Gnostics took that view.
	They recognize that we are special in the sense that our biosphere is a very precious vessel that sustains life that cannot be found elsewhere in this solar system.
	Well, that we know.
	That doesn't mean that Earth-like planets don't exist elsewhere in the universe because they said they do.
	But they didn't necessarily think that these Archons actually came from another physical planet necessarily, right?
	I'll tell you what, hold on to that thought.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	The way I got it, they were kind of part of creation itself.
	Beings that coexist with us, but got here at the moment of creation virtually.
	Unlike us, we came later.
	It don't come easy.
	You know it don't come easy.
	It don't come easy.
	You know it don't come easy.
	Got to pay your dues if you wanna see the blues.
	And you know it don't come easy.
	You don't have to shout or leap the vows.
	You can even play them easy.
	Forget about the past and all your sorrow.
	The future won't last.
	To my skin So cold
	La...la...la...la...la...la... La...la...la...la...la...la...la...
	!
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	You know, it really is, or it seems like it is very important to modern Ufology.
	To understand what the world thought at different times about it.
	Perhaps very ancient times, where knowledge that we have, and perhaps we're just regaining right now, was almost common knowledge.
	And they understood, apparently, what we were dealing with.
	Here telling us about that tonight is John Lash.
	Again, all the way from Belgium.
	He'll be right back.
	Good news about a... John, as I do the program I have a computer next to me and the listeners are able to fire in questions as they listen and Dan in Flagstaff, Arizona says Wouldn't these archons then be angels, unable to exist in our form?
	You know, that's kind of an angel, right?
	A spirit or a being down from heaven but not existing in our form and yet there since the creative moment just about, John?
	Well sure, you could in a way equate Archons with angels, but the real issue there is what kind of angels are they and what are they up to?
	What are these angels doing?
	All right, of all these texts that were produced, I guess, let's see, written texts produced 600 BC and 400 AD.
	That's right, for about a thousand years between 600 BC, which was the time of the great Greek philosophers, and 400 What percentage of them do you think were destroyed?
	was destroyed and many others. You have a thousand years in which these pagan
	initiates and teachers wrote many, many books on science, physics, geometry,
	biology. It's known. This is not something that is a marginal piece of information.
	What percentage of them do you think were destroyed?
	You know, it's absolutely staggering. It's up there around the number.
	Oh my goodness.
	It's not more.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Anyway, with the 0.1% that we've got, how much detail did they go into about these beings, their description, and maybe even more, their motivations and what they were all about?
	Well, they went into great detail.
	It is absolutely astounding what you can extract from these 52 fragmentary texts.
	Well, astound me.
	For example?
	Well, for example, you just asked the question regarding the ancient knowledge of the cosmos and, you know, how does that correspond to what we know today.
	Yes.
	Well, one of the words that occurs frequently in these Gnostic texts, which are written in a language called Coptic, It is, but it also has many Greek words in it, is the word pleroma, P-L-E-R-O-M-A, which actually is translated as the wholeness or the fullness or plenitude.
	And pleroma was the word that the Gnostics used to refer actually to a galaxy, what we today would call a galaxy, because a galaxy is a wholeness, it's a self-contained world unto itself, a cosmic unit.
	They actually said that there were millions and millions of these galaxies.
	Now, we know that this is something that science confirms, but only rather recently.
	That's quite right.
	It was only in the 1930s with Hubble that we even realized we were in a galaxy.
	Yes.
	Now, of course, with the Hubble Space Photographs, I think everyone has been dazzled by this image of galaxies scattered through infinite space, like seeds.
	The Gnostics actually describe this in some of the Nag Hammadi texts, such as the Sophia of Christ, is one text, or the Ugnostus, as it's also called, talks about the infinite plenitude of the galaxies.
	And yes, we have certainly confirmed that.
	We have confirmed that.
	And to get to the second part of your question, how precise were they?
	You know, the more I study these materials, the more I am impressed by the specificity of what they had to say.
	For instance, when they talk about these Archon aliens, that are a species of inorganic being, involved with us, because they inhabit the solar system, but they are not inhabitants of the Earth, as we are, they were speaking from an understanding that These archons arise in very specific conditions, having to do with our solar system in our galaxy.
	In order to have that kind of specificity about what they're talking about, they must have been able to observe other worlds.
	What kind of conditions were they talking about?
	They were talking about a condition which, as far as I know, science has only admitted in about the last two years.
	This is what is called the plasmatic surge from the galactic core.
	The plasmatic surge from the galactic core?
	Right.
	Have you heard about this?
	No.
	Well, we need just to take a minute here to establish what are the fundamentals of what the galaxy is and how it functions.
	The galaxy that we exist in, that the solar system exists in, has a core, a hub, which apparently is this massive, swirling, Uh, pool, whirlpool of pure energy.
	And then it has the wings or the limbs.
	It's like a vast carousel, right?
	Yes.
	And our solar system is located in one of those limbs.
	The third one, counting outward from the center.
	Okay?
	So you have this pinwheel or carousel galaxy.
	Right.
	And until very, very recently, uh, scientists did not realize that occasionally there are Surges of the pure energy from the galactic core that project themselves like tongues out into the area of the galactic limbs.
	They discovered this about two years ago when they found kind of tunnels in the structure of our galaxy.
	There are tunnels.
	Brain tunnels.
	Having what effect when it occurs?
	Well, this is what they don't know.
	But I believe that in Gnostic cosmology, we can find a certain explanation of this effect.
	The effect is, as far as I can see, that when there is a plasmic surge from the galactic core, and some of that high-powered energy flows out into the galactic limbs, it can produce, in the matter of the galactic limbs, certain Uh, conditions, certain configurations, according to what is called autopoiesis by physics.
	That is, it can give rise to certain forms of life.
	And, according to Gnostic cosmology, this is exactly what happened.
	As our solar system was forming, and you know, solar systems form all the time in the galactic limbs.
	Stars are born, and solar systems are formed and evolved constantly.
	When our solar system was born in this galactic limb that we inhabit, at a certain moment in the early part of its formation, there was a plasmatic surge.
	And that plasmatic surge swept over the forming solar system and produced this race of archons.
	It produced this premature species, in a sense.
	That's exactly how they describe it.
	I would say it corresponds very closely to what some of the more advanced astrophysicists are working on right now.
	So, would you describe it as the energy of destruction and creation?
	Would that be correct?
	You could say that.
	It is both very destructive, obviously, the potential for such a spike of energy.
	It's as if, you know, the thing that we could perhaps compare it most to would be a massive solar flare.
	Imagine what that would do to life forms on Earth.
	I can imagine.
	It could totally fry everything.
	But at the same time, because these forces in the center of the galaxy also have a high potentiality to create life, as you observe, then they created, they brought forth this species which is described Exactly by the word, anomaly.
	Our word, anomaly.
	It's an anomalous species.
	And the species of Archons came to inhabit the solar system before the Earth evolved into the form in which it could support human life.
	Right.
	I mean, this is a very, very sophisticated cosmological picture these people had.
	It certainly is for that time.
	It sure is.
	And to those, you know, people who would doubt, or listeners who may be saying, well, how is it possible that they could have known such intimate details of physics and astrophysics, which is something that I've asked myself a lot too, because I came to these studies with, I think, a healthy sense of skepticism as well.
	It's my understanding that yogis and shamans, through the ages, can develop Powers that are equal to the powers of technological instruments.
	They can see, for instance, Amazonian shamans, as you probably know, who do the ayahuasca rituals and so forth, claim that they can see the molecular structure of nature.
	And so we're talking about shamans who had developed higher faculties and I believe that it is from those faculties
	and from direct observation by those faculties that they were able to put
	together this picture.
	Okay I'm still I guess not clear on the archons.
	In other words, they were created very early on, before the biological thing began to happen.
	That's right.
	And they do really, in a lot of ways, seem more like what we would regard as angels than what we would regard as I don't know, some planet light years away, learning how to travel faster than light, getting here, arriving here from another actual planet somewhere out there.
	We're not thinking of archons that way at all, are we?
	No, we're thinking of them as inherent to our solar system, and as being, in a sense, our cosmic cousins.
	Although we're organic beings, and they're inorganic beings.
	Not fathers and mothers, but cousins.
	Cousins.
	But I would add this.
	We're going to talk now about our cosmic cousins, which the Gnostics said were of two types.
	A reptilian type and an embryo type.
	We have to bear in mind that the Gnostics were very explicit about the behavior of our cousins.
	Um, what did they say these archons did?
	Did they abduct people?
	Did they do... Indeed.
	Indeed, as a matter of fact... I'll be damned.
	Oh, as a matter of fact, there is a text in the Nag Hammadi collection, which is called the First Apocalypse of James, and I've written about this, written a commentary on this text in In the site metahistory.org, there's a lot, an enormous amount about the Archons now on metahistory.org, explaining more or less the cosmology that I just summarized and so forth.
	But in this one particular text, which is from Nag Hammadi, they use the term of, they use the language of, they will take away souls by theft.
	By theft?
	Yeah.
	And this, I believe, is ...equivalent to what we today would call abduction.
	Now, this is not the only explicit reference to abduction in the Nag Hammadi, but it is one of the more clear ones.
	And what's remarkable about this First Apocalypse of James is it takes the form of a dialogue between a Gnostic teacher and a student.
	And in this dialogue, the teacher, who is presumably a more advanced shaman, who has observed and encountered these beings, Explains their behavior, explains how they're menacing, how they're threatening, they're kind of like described as bullies.
	They push people around, they don't ask for permission to intrude on our reality.
	All in all, the Gnostics concluded that these Archons are a predatory species.
	And so, I would be a little careful with equating them with angels, because, you know, the normal association we make with angels is that they are perhaps emissaries of the good God.
	Yes, but there's some angels that didn't exactly toe the line, as it were, and they were, in Cast it on out for exactly that reason, right?
	Well, that's right.
	Well, legends that you find in mythology regarding the fallen angels, the Watchers, the Anunnaki as well, do also refer to these Archons.
	I am convinced, and I don't say this lightly, believe me, because I really looked at this one intensely, but I'm convinced that these Watchers of the Book of Enoch were identical to the Archons described by Pagan shamans.
	You describe them as our cousins.
	You really think that's an appropriate description, as cousins?
	I'm not sure.
	I'm not entirely comfortable with that.
	But I think that we do need to recognize that there is a certain kind of kinship, because they belong not to the earth, again I emphasize this, but to the solar system.
	And the earth belongs to the solar system.
	So you put that together, Somewhere, we are related to them in a cosmic sense.
	What about their motivations?
	In other words, what are they after?
	What do they want?
	Why are they here?
	They're still here today, right?
	They are still here today, and they've been here for a very, very long time.
	As to their motivations, well, that's one of the more fascinating points.
	That comes up in the Gnostic writings.
	Presumably, if they wanted us dead or gone, we'd be dead or gone.
	Well, I have to make a cautionary remark there.
	The Gnostics are very, very clear in saying that the Archons are not more powerful than us, nor are they more evolved than us.
	And this, again, is a very unique and kind of arresting Well, what the Gnostics say about that is very peculiar.
	They say that the Archons actually lack our evolutionary drive.
	They're more like cyborgs.
	have they evolved as far as they're going to?
	Well, what the Gnostics say about that is very peculiar.
	They say that the Archons actually lack
	our evolutionary drive.
	They're more like cyborgs. They are more like a robotic race
	who can follow orders and imitate, but cannot actually innovate and evolve in
	the sense that we understand it.
	Gosh, that's so interesting, John, because the Greys have been described a million times by people who have had encounters with them as what they thought were sort of biological robots, not the real intellect behind whatever was moving and motivating them, but they were sort of like biological robots.
	They've really been described that way.
	Well, absolutely, and I think that among the many things that this Gnostic interpretation of Archons has to offer us is a confirmation of where we stand with the Greys in that respect.
	And even in this text that I'm referring to, the Second Apocalypse of James, the teacher makes a very great point to his student.
	They will not rule over you.
	They do not have dominion over the earth.
	They were not your creators, but they are in the solar system with you, and you must face up to their existence.
	So there's really a tremendous message here, which I don't find anywhere else, of what stand we may take And what relationship we may develop to these beings.
	How do you think their relationship with these beings was versus ours now?
	Well, their relationship is also something that one doesn't have to speculate about.
	There are plenty of concrete clues to it in the codices.
	The Gnostics felt that the Archons had to be kept in their place.
	One of the problems they said they have, that the Archons have, Is that they don't observe their correct boundaries.
	They intrude.
	And life on Earth, as we know it, life in the biosphere where we live, depends on observing boundaries, you know?
	If ants go out of their boundaries and we get ants in our clothes and ants in our food, we have problems.
	But if ants stay in their proper boundaries, they are our friends.
	Right.
	Right.
	So we understand very profoundly, because we share a biosphere with many other species, That we must watch our boundaries.
	One of the first things that they specify about the Archons is, and this is really, to me, just dazzling, they say that they envy us.
	Their motivation is envy.
	And because of their envy, they intrude on our reality in an attempt to try to overtake it and to become like us.
	They envy what about us?
	Our love, our passion, our ability to think, and what?
	All those things, but probably most particularly, they envy the fact that we can innovate, that we are driven, that we are goal-oriented, that we have the passion to explore and innovate, whereas they are being cyborgs, have a very robotic capacity, and they lack that.
	Got it, John.
	Hold on.
	John Lash, all the way from Belgium, is my guest, and I guess, what was then, is still now.
	What do you think?
	We do programs on it all the time.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	I'm a man from a folk yard movie.
	In a country where they turn back time.
	You got strolling...
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	It is, and from all the way in Belgium, John Lash is here, and what he is saying this night seems to be resonating with many of you out there quite well.
	Mike and Kent Washington says, you know, I've long thought that greys and other visitors envy us for our emotions and ability to experience feelings.
	Many abductions seem to be centered on forcing the abductee to Relive emotions and emotional experiences.
	Or this from area in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
	Mr. Bell, I'm a rather new listener to C2C, and in addition to saying I love the program as usual, thank you, I wanted to thank you for tonight's guest as a Wiccan.
	I'm rather proud to have my religious ancestors given the credit They deserve.
	Today is our Astra holiday, bless it be.
	And then from Christians, they see this course as proof of angelic presence.
	so it's resonating obviously with a lot of people but for different reasons
	ray in fargo north dakota i think is about to ask a good question or i am for
	him.
	Here it is.
	He says, fascinating guest, Art, but I have a question.
	Is the text that he's speaking of tonight, subject to interpretation, much like Nostradamus's text, where different people Translate it differently, or is it specific enough, John, that what you're telling us is absolutely verbatim?
	It's not an interpreted... Have you laid your own interpretation into what you have read, or are you giving us the straight stuff?
	Good question there.
	I would say that the principal Gnostic text, which you find in what's called the Nag Hammadi Library in English, Which has been in print now for about 20 years, edited by James Robinson, is recognized as a scholarly text and a translation of these Coptic documents.
	Now, I don't follow that text myself.
	I don't follow that translation myself, word for word.
	But I will say that the documents you find, and I'm going to quote one right here for you to show you, are not written in a metaphoric language.
	Or a symbolic language, like the Prophecies of Notre Dame.
	No, they're written in a very direct psychological language, which leaves, if you look closely at the exact meaning of the words, I think it leaves no doubt that these are concrete descriptions That can be taken as such, and you don't have to get into layers of symbolic interpretation.
	Okay, read me one.
	Let me give you an example from what's called the Gospel of Truth, in which the writer is describing the archons and the mentality of the archons, saying, they are ignorant of the source, for the source is something that they cannot see.
	And so it is through terror and disturbance, through instability, doubt, and division, and many illusions they implant as empty fictions in our minds, that they work.
	And they work at their best when we are sunk in sleep and find ourselves in disturbing dreams.
	So this is not John, were these your expectations when you began researching this material?
	Is this what you thought you would find, or what were your expectations when you began this research?
	Oh, that's a beautiful question, Art.
	of the Nagamati material is like that.
	John, were these your expectations when you began researching this material?
	Is this what you thought you would find, or what were your expectations when you began
	this research?
	Oh, that's a beautiful question, Art.
	Thank you for that.
	I had the good fortune of coming across Gnosticism and the subject of the Gnostic teachings and
	the mysteries, pagan mysteries, when I was quite young, around 16 or 17.
	I was deeply intrigued, but I didn't really know how to get into it, you know.
	It seemed like a very remote and strange world.
	And I did come to Europe for the first time when I was about 19 or 20, and I did kind of stumble my way into a number of ancient sites, and it affected me very deeply, but I couldn't articulate what I was feeling.
	So when my quest became conscious, there were two moments when my quest in Gnosticism became conscious.
	The first one was in my late 20s when I realized that the Gnostics had A vision of the cosmos that was different from what I had been taught from the Bible and from Christianity.
	They had an alternative cosmology and a whole alternative spiritual practice to go with it.
	So that really jolted me.
	Then, I can tell you exactly when it was, and I thank our Wiccan friend there for pointing out the fact that this is the Spring Equinox.
	On the spring equinox in 1996, I was sitting very close to where I am right now, and suddenly, as the saying goes, the big penny dropped.
	Oh, really?
	And that's the moment when I realized that the archons of which the Gnostics speak, and on which they present such specific information, could be equated with E.T.
	Grey's and aliens as we know it.
	When those two things came together, it was an enormous joke for me.
	And at that moment, I realized that that is the point that I had actually been advancing toward all along.
	Well, prior to that point, John, what was your involvement in ufology or looking at the whole alien scene or any of the rest of it?
	I've had a long, long involvement in it, mainly through a close friend of mine, Kathy Sullivan, who lives in California.
	And we, for many, many years, going back more than 25 years now, were initially fascinated, you know, as many people are, by the great megaliths around the world.
	The pyramids in Mexico, in Egypt, and so forth.
	And we wondered how they could have been built by human engineers, you know?
	So we began to speculate on whether or not there had been some kind of superior technology involved.
	that might have come from an alien source. And of course then there was the von Danecken and
	material and that sort of thing. So I've been on that track for about 25 years, but
	that track sort of ran parallel, you see, to my gnostical studies,
	until a certain point when the two things converged.
	All right.
	I understand that in the text, in the Gnostic text, there is no description of a lot of what we see, the hardware stuff, you know, the metal saucers, the other hardware, none of that.
	That's right.
	You're absolutely right about that.
	And this is such an important point because I think that to really get the message of the Gnostics about alien intrusion We need to see what it says and what it doesn't say, to see what it tells us and what it doesn't tell us.
	There's hardware and there's software.
	The hardware is the flying machines, the discs, the cigar-shaped discs, whatever you want, the Pleiadian light chips, whatever you want to call them.
	And as a matter of fact, there are many pagan sources of reports of this hardware.
	But not in the Nag Hammadi materials themselves, but in other writings by pagan teachers in the Middle Ages, because paganism survived into the Middle Ages.
	And many, many of these events occurred, as you probably know, around the time of Christ.
	There were enormous amounts of sightings.
	For instance, the historian who accompanied Alexander the Great on his expeditions, his personal historian, recorded a battlefield scene in which UFO-type vehicles appeared above the battlefield.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	So, if you want to go back, sort of as Jacques Vallée did, and go into the... make an inventory of hardware sightings in... before the Christian era, and during the Christian era, you'll find many, many, many of them.
	Why don't we find any reference to this hardware in the Nag Hammadi writings?
	Well, that'd be my question.
	The question is because the Gnostics believed that what we needed to know was about the software side, not the hardware side.
	We needed to know about how the aliens work in our minds.
	Well, you know, one would imagine that the Archons, as you have described them, wouldn't need hardware, or would they?
	I don't believe they do.
	That would be my conclusion.
	I believe they have hardware.
	I believe that Exterior to the Earth, that in the mechanics of the, you know, the solar system is a big place.
	Yes.
	You know?
	And there's a lot of raw materials out there.
	They're not the kind of raw materials that we can live on, but there's a lot of inorganic materials out there, and the Archons are described as kind of engineers and technicians who live in the solar system and kind of sustain it.
	They kind of live in the structure that they maintain.
	And so they do have that engineering possibility, but that's not the real threat.
	Gnostics were concerned about warning us about the way that they intrude upon our minds, into our mental software, into the syntax of our language and our belief systems.
	And they go into that in great detail.
	Okay, so the hardware was there, but it was no big deal.
	They were much more concerned with the intrusion into the mind.
	I guess, again, if you're looking at their motives, we started talking about motives, and their interest in our mind would perhaps explain what they seem to do.
	Jealousy, is that the right word?
	Envy is the word.
	Envy?
	Phonos is the Greek word.
	Envy is this word that occurs again and again, and it's such... I've reflected so much on what this can mean, you know.
	The aliens, the ETs, envy us.
	What does this mean?
	Well, as you noted in the previous segment, it does seem to correspond, or explain, a lot of their behavior.
	They scrutinize us, they cause us to go into emotional states, they traumatize us.
	Why?
	It would seem to be so that they can observe these emotions as if they were able to absorb them and make them their own.
	Or perhaps even utilize them as a source of some kind of energy.
	Who knows?
	Well, this is another thing.
	The Gnostic texts are specific in saying that the Archons feed on fear.
	They feed on fear.
	That's right, and that is textual art.
	I'm not extrapolating that or making that up.
	That is textual.
	They feed on fear, I wonder, to study it or to utilize it, I wonder.
	It's a kind of energy that gives them a kick.
	It's like a drug.
	Yes.
	Fear is their drug, human fear.
	And so, the word terror, which I think was contained in the little passage I just read, occurs frequently in the Egyptian text, and they are connected with, it's a very interesting play on words, the archons are connected with terror and error.
	And what do we have today?
	A war on what?
	We have a war on terror that may be greatly in error.
	Oh, God, that was good, John.
	Okay, you want to take off with that one?
	A war on terror that may be greatly in error.
	Well, I'm going to take a little stretch here for a minute, just see if this extrapolation is valid for you.
	One of the things that we have observed, I'm just going to talk about something that we observe in our world today, okay?
	Sure.
	On the political and global scale.
	And then I'm going to draw a parallel to what the Gnostics said about Archon Methods.
	Yes.
	We understand that governments, a government, even if it disguised itself as a democracy, who wanted to control its people, could do it very effectively by making them fear things that weren't really going to happen.
	Oh, yes.
	And as long as the fear was real, it wouldn't matter if the threatened event was real or So there's a psychological technique of mind control that we all recognize, I think, pretty clearly right now.
	I don't have to elaborate that any further.
	Well, among the things that the Gnostics specified about the alien methods of mind control and intrusion was their use of simulation.
	Now this word, simulation, is extremely important in the Nag Hammadi materials.
	The actual Coptic word is Hal.
	H-A-L.
	And this term, Hal, means to simulate something, to make something appear to happen that does not actually happen.
	And Gnostics specified, from their encountering with these beings and their study of how these beings work, That they do have one particular power over us.
	They can enter into our minds by some kind of telepathy, you might say, in such a way that they can persuade us that things are real which are not real.
	They can simulate a reality.
	Do you have an example of what you might mean by that?
	Sure!
	Let's consider abductions.
	We're all trying to figure out how these abductions take place, because they're obviously real to the people who experience them.
	Yes.
	And I would never deny or dismiss the experience of those people.
	But what we wonder is, well, how can it be real?
	Because the things that happen in the abduction, for instance, being sucked out of a room and into a spacecraft, defy the laws of physics as we know it, right?
	Correct, yes.
	According to the Gnostics, this We know now that we might be able to create a virtual reality.
	I mean, we're playing around with it, right?
	We are, yes.
	ability that the aliens have. They can in fact induce a virtual reality situation.
	We know now that we might be able to create a virtual reality. I mean, we're playing around with it, right?
	We are, yes.
	I believe that there's probably a technology that would allow you to put on a virtual reality helmet and gloves
	and stand in a box and almost experience skiing in the Alps.
	It's crude, but it's... Right.
	Yes, we're proceeding.
	So we know what that is.
	Imagine that there is another species who can do that and it ain't crude.
	This is how.
	And all for what?
	All for the purpose of creating this sphere that we're talking about that they feed upon?
	There seems to be a dual purpose here.
	Certainly, if they can create fear in us and invoke terror, they get some kind of high off that.
	There does seem to be a drug there for them.
	But secondly, let's remember that they are envious of us, and everything that they do, at the end of the day, comes down to an attempt that they make to sort of get into our heads, get into our emotions, and become like us, because we have things that they don't have.
	The really weird part of the story is that their attempt to do that is totally absurd.
	Because they can't succeed.
	But they're driven to keep trying.
	But they're driven to do it anyway.
	For me, you know, one of the things that was most enlightening after I made the R. Cornelian connection, and then I started to read a lot of Jacques Vallée, And at one point, I think it's in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Vallée says, the way to a man's belief is through absurdity.
	And that really struck me as a very revealing comment, because from what I can make out of the alien behavior, alien Archon behavior, it's really quite absurd.
	Well, maybe, John, but if the motive of the aliens is explained as their envy for us, their wanting to essentially replace us or even become us, we're saying it's a silly agenda and they can't do it.
	But what if we're wrong, John?
	What if it is achievable?
	This is a big question that we live with.
	Yes, it certainly is.
	I mean, how can you write off their ability to finally actually accomplish that?
	Maybe they do have a meaningful goal.
	How are we writing that off?
	Well, we have to be very careful about writing that off.
	I totally agree with you.
	But again, I'm trying to translate and convey to the best of my ability what Gnostic said.
	As far as I understand it, they said there is no possibility That they can really take us over.
	That they can really come in and take over our reality.
	But we can, in a sense, give over our power to them.
	We can do that.
	Same end effect, John.
	They get it.
	Possibly the same end effect.
	You could well be right on that.
	It's very important to realize that it didn't happen because they overpowered us.
	If it happens, it will happen, because we abdicate our own proper powers and capacities to them.
	Well, gee, that could just... It's a totally different story.
	That could never happen, huh?
	People giving up or gaining security for just giving up a little bit of freedom, that could never happen.
	Hey, listen... That could never happen.
	We're here at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be right back.
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	Who loves you, baby?
	Well, the scaly ones and the greys, they love ya.
	Just a wonderful connection with John Lash, all the way in Belgium, and in very much more than just one way.
	John, I've got a question from Stephen in Boulder, Colorado, and a good question at this juncture.
	He asks, how about asking your guest, Art, To comment on human-alien hybrids.
	It's right down the road we were going.
	Right down the road.
	In fact, some of your listeners are highly telepathic.
	I can see that.
	I was going to say that we've covered quite a few aspects of alien intrusion, as understood by these pagan shamans and seers.
	There is the one real zinger that remains, and that is the interbreeding.
	Question.
	And so what I would like to do, I have a gem here that I'd love to share with you.
	This is also from the Nag Hammadi text, and it's from a particular document called On the Origin of the World.
	Now, this document uses a little bit, a slight bit of mythological language in that it refers to Adam and Eve.
	We, I think we should understand that Adam and Eve.
	By Adam and Eve, it means the human ancestors of the human race, that's all.
	Our genetic parents at some earlier time.
	And the passage describes the attempted approach of the aliens to our parents.
	And if you will, I'd like to just read this passage.
	Let her rip.
	The Archons came to Adam.
	And when they saw Eve talking with Adam, they said to one another, Well, what sort of thing is this luminous woman?
	For she resembles a brilliant likeness we saw in the sky.
	Now come, let us lay hold of her and cast our seed into her, so that she becomes soiled and she may not descend into that light.
	Rather, those whom she bears for us will be under our charge and under our control.
	There you've got it.
	But that's the first part of the story.
	Now here you have, in a document written by some anonymous seer and teacher in the mystery schools 2,000 years ago, a report of an alien attempt at interbreeding.
	No question about it.
	No question about it.
	Clear as day.
	But once again, The extraordinary thing about these Gnostics is, I tell you, they really deliver the goods.
	Because not only do they tell you this, but they tell you something else, which I think is even more amazing.
	So, can I read the second part of the passage?
	Go right ahead.
	Okay.
	Rather, those whom she bears for us will be under our charge and under our control.
	Okay, so that's their intention.
	And let us not tell Adam, for he is not one of us.
	We will plunge him into a deep sleep.
	And in our sleep we will instruct him to the effect that Eve came out of his rib in order that she, his wife, might obey him and that he may be lord over her and we may be lord over him.
	Then Eve, being a spiritual force, recognized the Archons and she laughed at their intention.
	She put mist into their eyes and secretly she left her double In their presence, while she entered Gnosis and ascended to the light, the Gnostics pursued her, but they were unable to seize upon Eve.
	So that's when the woman's movement got born.
	That is the moment when it got born, sometime in prehistory.
	We now know that it has been around a long time.
	And the amazing thing about that passage is that The Gnostics are telling us, if I interpret this correctly, and I think here you can see that this is not symbolic or obscure language, they're saying that the Archons wished to interbreed.
	They wished to intrude in our genetic makeup.
	That is to say, to sow their seed in Eve.
	But they couldn't do it.
	They failed.
	Where, John, and how, John, do we deal with these modern reports of women Um, with pregnancies that are terminated and then later are shown, uh, the results of those pregnancies, John.
	We have a lot of that in the modern world.
	Indeed we do.
	I've read Jacob's books.
	I have been staggered by what I've read, as I think everyone has, and I will not sit here in Belgium or in any other country in the world and pretend to you that I have the ultimate answer to that, and I can explain it all away.
	I will only say that Human beings, in their imagination, are capable of affecting their own bodies, as you know.
	Stigmata is, for instance, an example of a religious experience.
	Of course.
	And we have a mind-body connection that the Archons can't even get close to.
	But they can meddle with our mind-body connection, perhaps, and cause phenomena to occur in the mind-body zone.
	That perhaps make these events happen.
	I'm sure these events are very real.
	I have complete respect and compassion for the people who experience them.
	At the same time, I follow Gnostic view that all this is happening because there is some alien force intruding in our minds that is so affecting our reality that it makes us believe Things that are not so.
	All with the goal in mind of taking the energy from the shock and the wonderment and the amazement of this event that they've created.
	Exactly.
	Isn't that how envy works?
	Well, I guess it does work that way sometimes, yes.
	Sometimes, sure.
	And yet we know also that envy is ultimately very frustrating, you know?
	Like, I might envy Brad Pitt, you know?
	But if I was able to take over his life and be in his place, I wouldn't handle it very well, because I'm not Brad Pitt.
	And so, this is pretty much the situation with the aliens.
	They are not us, but they would like to become us.
	And we may give them the opportunity to do so, as you very, very astutely observed, you know?
	No chance that people would give up their freedom, you know, for a little security, is there?
	So these beings, if and when they're in some kind of physical form, are not able, for example, to breathe our atmosphere, our combination of gases?
	That's exactly right.
	Their position is more or less like we would be in if we were doing deep sea diving.
	Especially in the really, really deep part of the sea where you have to go in in these armored vehicles.
	And we can only be down there for a very short period of time.
	That is comparable to what they must tolerate when they try physically to permeate the biosphere.
	They cannot live in the biosphere.
	They are inorganic beings who don't breathe air.
	It's been suggested that they have a Well, the grey cyborgs have a silicon-mercury type of composition.
	And in any case, it's not physical intrusion that is their main intention.
	And so they don't have to be close to achieve that.
	No, they don't have to be.
	It's done at a distance, done by telepathy, I believe.
	You know, we recognize now that there is such a thing as interspecies telepathy, right?
	Ah, yes.
	People have it with their cats.
	These are extraordinary stories.
	We now know that certain people have been able to communicate with wolves, dolphins, or whales.
	Well, there is a kind of interspecies telepathy that has been going on for thousands of years.
	Between the archons and the human race, and it's now playing itself out in a very critical chapter.
	Well, but then again, it is not so bad that we would be described as puppets on strings, even though perhaps at times it would seem that way.
	You're saying that we have all these different freedoms and emotions and passions and drives And goals that we try and achieve that are separate and much beyond their ability to even understand, much less intervene in.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	When it comes to understanding the actual complexity of the human mind and how we are goal-driven, and how we can envision and create things through imagination and intention, they're rather like donkeys trying to figure out a grand piano.
	And the other thing, I think if I had to sum up the whole essence of what the Gnostics are saying about the Archons, in one sentence, in four words, I would say, the Archons are delusional.
	And those who become enmeshed with them become delusional.
	You know, the word Archon is used, as I've said, in a special way in these Gnostic texts, but it was a very common word in the Greco-Latin world.
	John?
	Yeah.
	Based on what you just said, then, would you agree that perhaps a large percentage of those who are in mental institutions around the world are so affected?
	Well, that would be a big swipe.
	I would say that the Archon intrusion Probably has played and does play a great role in mental illness.
	But I would add to that, having said that, I would say that these people who can be defined as mentally ill may be actually perceiving the reality of the Archons, but they are not able to interpret it or handle it.
	And that's why the Gnostics considered it so important in their training schools, which are called the Mysteries, to teach The Neophytes, how to face the Archons, how to defend themselves against the Archons.
	So, I think that Philip K. Dick is a beautiful example, and as you probably know, he absorbed a tremendous amount of Gnostic material.
	Yes.
	And he had a Gnostic illumination experience himself in March of 1974.
	His book, Valis, is a beautiful introduction to Gnosticism.
	And in that, he shows that a schizophrenic who is himself can have these perceptions that the Gnostics have, but if they're not trained to handle them properly, it can lead to some very serious mental disturbances.
	Yes.
	Our present concept of Gaia, the living planet, may be crucial to realize what the uh...
	the gnostics were saying now uh... is that
	what you embrace of the living planet is that what you believe
	if you look on the website made a history organized which i've been
	writing now since uh... two thousand two you'll see that it begins with a rather bold mission
	statement regarding guy in the living planet
	and uh...
	reason for that uh...
	presence of that message on the site is because one of the purposes of the media history or got the only
	one but one of the purposes is to re
	rewrite recreate based on the original materials the gnostic creation mail
	And in the Gnostic Creation Myth, which I'm drawing from the Nag Hammadi materials and some other sources, the central figure of their myth is the goddess Sophia.
	Who becomes embodied in the planet Earth.
	The reason why the Earth is a living entity and the rest of the planets in the solar system are not, according to Gnostics, is because the Earth is actually the body of a divine being called Sophia.
	So, I make this connection between Gaia and Sophia.
	I strongly feel that the The growing understanding of Gaia since about 1975, about 30 years now, is actually going to bring us to the point where it converges precisely with the Gnostic myth of Sophia.
	So I've attempted to describe that myth and explain and interpret that myth all throughout the site, MetaHistory.org.
	I'm curious how you react to the current earth changes underway.
	Some of them seem really quite incredible.
	In the climate changes, the geological action, the volcanoes, just a lot of things happening around the earth right now that seem, oh I don't know, progressively dire from a human point of view.
	Indeed they do.
	Well, there is no evidence, as far as I know, from the Gnostic angle, that Archons, even though they have a greater command of planetary physics than we do, if I might put it in that way, that they could affect our planet in a catastrophic manner.
	However, in an indirect manner, they could.
	Well, does their existence, to some degree, must depend on our survival?
	It does, that's right.
	So, to the degree that they're able to interfere and direct us in one way or another, are they doing so?
	Well, as I said before, I think the best thing to remember, the essential thing to remember in the Gnostic message here, is that the Archons are, in themselves, delusional.
	And I know that's a big, big statement to make, and we just have to direct your listeners to the website in order to get a deeper explanation of that.
	But to the extent that they are delusional, they can cause us to be delusional.
	And what Gnostics saw as the greatest danger of delusion of our species is when we lose our connection with Gaia, the living planet.
	That's why paganism Which is, you know, a terrible stereotype and in some ways reticent to use the word.
	But ancient paganism was the religion of nature in which human beings had a profound connection to the planet and saw it as intelligent and divine.
	And so, there's a place where Gnosticism converges with the Gaia Hypothesis.
	And through the Gaia Hypothesis, we may be coming into a bond, a conscious bond, with Gaia.
	The Gnostics said that is the most important thing in the world for us, obviously.
	Because we need to co-evolve with the planet we inhabit.
	Everything that takes us away from that co-evolution is delusional, and can have catastrophic effects in the environment.
	Here in America, wouldn't the closest thing to it be, perhaps, Native American thought?
	Well, I believe that in the 1800s, a lot of people breaching the New West and killing as they went.
	American natives referred to them as dirt worshippers.
	Right.
	Well, the pagans were dirt worshippers.
	Again, it's an almost telepathic remark there, Art.
	In my book, The Gnostic Legacy, which will be coming out from Chelsea Green in the fall.
	I opened the book with a reference to Dee Brown's book, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, which came out in the 70s.
	I use this term Native Americans.
	Everyone now knows what Native Americans are, thanks to Dee Brown and other writers, and they also know what was done to Native Americans.
	If I say to you that the Native Americans who existed before the Europeans arrived in America had an indigenous spiritual wisdom, you know exactly what I'm talking about.
	I do.
	Well, pagans were native Europeans.
	They were the exact parallel.
	Pagan civilization before the era of Christ, say 600 B.C.
	or 1000 B.C., consisted of a vast mosaic of tribal cultures that were shamanically oriented, exactly like The Confederacy of Tribes that the Europeans encountered when they came to America.
	It's an exact parallel.
	Native Europeans were pagans.
	That's how I define the word pagan.
	And their religion was Earth-oriented or Gaia-oriented.
	So it's out of that consciousness that the Gnostic knowledge came.
	Well, it seems reasonable to me, and I've always rather thought that the American natives had, even though that was a derisive term used then, dirt worshippers, really... I don't know, it makes sense to me, and I think it makes sense to a lot of other people as well.
	I think it does, and one of the things that I've learned from the study of Native American wisdom and from discussing some of the people who represent it, the survivors, is that they also were sophisticated shamans who had a perception of many types of interdimensional beings that interact with us.
	And because they were able to perceive these beings, they had the psychic ability They were also able to determine which of those beings were predatory and which were benign or neutral.
	That's an extremely important point.
	By the way, should we be thinking of Archons as interdimensional beings?
	Is that fair?
	I think that's a fair term to apply to them, as long as we stick to the Gnostic description, which says that they sprang up with the solar system.
	They are co-evil with the solar system.
	All right.
	Hold it right there.
	Sure.
	And we'll be right back.
	And when we do come back, we'll go to the phones.
	remember we're talking all the way to belgium so in a moment it will begin
	needles and pins, white lights till dawn, watching back long till you return.
	Lighting that torch, and watching it burn.
	Hey, when it was enough, we were burning.
	We were gonna go all the way, and we never had a doubt.
	We were burning with the night, waiting in the shadows.
	Coming to and from, till the morning light.
	We were burning, burning with the night.
	We were so in love, you and me.
	All we could have won, was the day.
	We were burning with the night, waiting in the shadows.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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	Indeed so, Bob in the promo, in a moment, in his fast blast, definitely demonstrates the delusional influence the Archons are obviously having.
	Your dog is dead.
	And now the example I spoke of from Bob in Nipomo.
	Bob says, Oh!
	Now, now I get it, Art.
	You put down Christianity because you want to convert people to Winka, that's W-I-N-K-A, your wife's religion and your own, question mark, and you attack your listeners.
	Like with me, you wanted me to date a woman, a wicca, whose daughter looked just like her.
	You see, we have obvious Archon influence there.
	The Archon interference is always with us.
	It says here that resistance to, and I thought this was interesting, E.T.
	slash Archon intrusion was considered by Gnostics to depend on humanity's connection to the wisdom of Goddess Sophia or the Earth, right?
	That's right, that's exactly true.
	Yeah, they felt that as long as we have a A biological, a real physical connection with the Earth, and as long as we are co-evolving with nature, that the Archons have very little chance of intruding on us, you know?
	So then when we allow ourselves to become dissociated from our bodies, that we become very, very vulnerable to intrusion.
	So, if you are about to be abducted, you would be better off saying, Mother Earth, help, than you would making a cross and saying, Jesus, make it go away.
	Oh, indeed.
	If we follow the text here again, I mentioned this text, the Second Apocalypse, the First Apocalypse of James, which is on the site, by the way, it's called the Gnostic Catechism on Metahistory.org, in which the The Gnostic teacher instructs the pupil on exactly what to say when they face the Archons.
	And that basically is... That basically is... Now, when you come under their power, one of them, who is the overseer, will say to you, Who are you?
	And where are you from?
	And you are to say to him, I am a child of humanity, and I am from the Mother Source.
	And then they will say to you, Well, what sort of child are you?
	And to what source do you belong?
	And you are to say to him, I am from the preexistent source, and I am the offspring of that divine source.
	Then they will say to you, well, why were you sent out from the source?
	And you will respond, I came from the preexistent source, so that I might behold those of my own kind, and also those like you, who are alien.
	That's pretty specific.
	That is.
	All right, we're going to go to the phones, and I have no idea what awaits you, John.
	But we're going to find out.
	Oh, that's great.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with John Lask, who's in Belgium.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	My name is Francis, and I'm calling from Milwaukee.
	Milwaukee.
	Right.
	It states in the book Enoch that there were watchers that came To Earth.
	To overlook the human species, which God had put on Earth.
	The reason he put them on Earth, because in the eon before this Earth, before he shook it, the Great Catabo, that there was a war in Heaven with the angels.
	When Satan drew a third of the beings of God away, And there was a great war.
	And God, being a loving God, they were drawn away from Him, the shining Nagash, which had fallen because of pride.
	He was one of the covering cherubim of the Ark, of the Mercy Seat of God.
	He was made the most beautiful.
	What happened was, He drew them away, a third of the angels away, and rather than God wiping out A third of his created souls.
	What he did, he shook the earth, wiped out the beasts who were on the earth because in our physical form we could not compete with dinosaurs or whatever.
	And he made us flesh and blood.
	And it grieved him that he had to make us flesh and blood and put us on earth.
	Then what happened was That on the sixth day, he made all the other races.
	On the seventh day, he rested.
	On the seventh day, he made, I will make them, ah-ha-dem, the Adam.
	And the Adam will be, we, I shall make them in our likeness.
	Okay, slow up, hold up.
	So, you're saying this third that was cast down are probably the Archons, is what you're saying, right?
	No, the Minions.
	These are the cherubim.
	The minions, they're not souls like you and I are.
	They're lower beings.
	But, they are the beings of the fallen angels.
	Which, if you remember, when, what's his name, was taken up by Travis Swalton?
	Yes.
	Remember?
	He said there was these Nordic-looking people.
	Yes, I recall.
	They were called beings.
	Yes.
	Well, of course, as I mentioned earlier, the Watchers, as they're called, appear in other documents.
	the locust army okay all right sir all right thank you all right so i've got it um john
	well of course as i mentioned earlier uh the watchers as they are called appear in other
	documents they appear in the books of enoch which he's citing and they also appear in uh
	the dead sea scrolls but uh the interpretation of the watchers these fallen angels yes and what
	they actually are doing where they are coming from is quite different in gnostic materials
	than it is in these other texts Exactly.
	Yeah, so what the gentleman was summarizing there was more or less a view of the Watchers, which is not as the Gnostics interpreted them.
	The devil's in the details, John.
	The devil is indeed in the details.
	And again, it's easy to say that the Archon ETs were the angels of Ezekiel and so forth.
	That identification has been widely made.
	But we have to look more deeply into, well, what are these beings actually doing, and what is their purpose?
	And those answers are only found in the Nag Hammadi materials, as far as I know.
	All right.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with John Lash in Belgium.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	I'm doing all right, sir.
	Great to speak with you, Art.
	Okay, question for your guest.
	Is his message timely at this particular time?
	Is it timely right now, you mean?
	Yes, in this particular age.
	All right.
	Well, yeah, it is a good question.
	Of course, I guess we always seem like we're at a critical juncture, but we really do seem like we are right now.
	Well, we are at a critical juncture right now, but let's, just for a second, cast our minds back a little bit.
	I would invoke a date that will give, I think, you and all your readers a certain frisson of delight and fear, and that is the year 1947.
	We all know that that was a very, very big year in terms of the UFO phenomenon, wasn't it?
	Yes, absolutely.
	It so happens, now this is a remarkable coincidence.
	Arthur, I don't know if you'd apply the word coincidence to this.
	Although the Nag Hammadi texts were discovered in the first week of December 1945 in a jar in Egypt, the significance of them was not recognized until the summer of 1947 July of 1947.
	Does that ring a bell?
	Yes, of course.
	In addition to that, it was also in July of 1947 that the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered.
	And the Dead Sea Scrolls, which ought not to be confused with the Gnostic materials, represent a whole other view of a UFO cult phenomena.
	Right.
	Okay?
	Those three things all happened in the same month, in 1947.
	And we're still trying to unravel that connection.
	So I think, yeah, it's extremely timely, and gets more so as the days go by.
	Well, gee, you know, ABC just a few weeks ago, a couple weeks ago, said the whole thing at Roswell was a myth.
	Well, of course.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Lash.
	Hello.
	Is this East of the Rockies?
	Yeah, that's right.
	Okay, this is Al from Old Brooklyn, Cleveland.
	I think I was on a couple weeks ago.
	Okay.
	I have a question.
	I'm calling from WTM 1100.
	I have a question for your guest.
	Yes.
	Are you there?
	Yes.
	Yes, waiting for the question.
	All right, I can hear you.
	All right, I have a question.
	I was wondering if you think that aliens could be fallen angels or other angels, and my other question is, I remember a previous show when one of the guests said that when aliens are abducting people, that the people would say, help me Jesus, and the people of the aliens would scream and yell and they'd leave.
	I'm wondering if that has any connection between the aliens and being the same thing as demons and them.
	I would like to respond to the second point.
	Alright, are they angels? We sort of covered that already.
	We covered that. I would like to respond to the second point.
	Among the specific guidelines and techniques that Gnostics advised for resisting aliens,
	they did not advise saying the name of Christ or holding up a crucifix or making the sign of the cross.
	And yet, John, many have... And yet that will work, in some cases, for modern people.
	Why does that work for modern people?
	Very simply because if the individual who's being accosted by the Archon alien has invested their sense of personal power in their belief about Jesus, then that will work As a tool to repel the Archons.
	It's not that the repelling power comes from an entity called Jesus, it comes from the belief of the person who holds Jesus as a spiritual figure.
	So it's a matter of basic psychology, how that works.
	But Gnostics did not advise that.
	Gnostics advised that when, two things, that when we are confronted by These alien-type beings who attempt to abduct us or in any way to take control of us.
	We should affirm our connection with the Earth, with this goddess of the Earth, Sophia.
	And they also advise that it's very good to have some knowledge of Kundalini.
	Because Kundalini, which I think many of the listeners will be familiar with, is a force that exists in the human body that acts as an immune system against alien intrusion.
	But anything that you believe in strongly enough as a great power will work.
	Probably it will, simply because that's the way that we're constructed, isn't it?
	We're beings who are driven by our beliefs and guided by our beliefs.
	It just does not help answer some very important questions.
	Well, I think the important distinction to make in this case, Art, is that it's the power of the belief held by the person that's repelling the alien.
	It would be incorrect, in my view, to attribute that power to Jesus.
	Yes, that's right.
	But in the case of invoking the Earth, it's not just the name of the Earth that we're invoking, it's our connection with the Earth that repels the aliens.
	So that's again a different case.
	If in fact it is our connection with the Earth that is the power.
	Well, that's what That's what Gnostics taught, and that's essential to the pagan view of life.
	I understand.
	West of the Rockies.
	West of the Rockies.
	You're on the air with John Lash in Belgium.
	Hi John.
	Hi there.
	I wonder if you could comment on the following Gnostic point.
	The first would be that Jesus is the Creator, though he may have had a different name.
	According to the Bible, he has a name which no man knows.
	That the Archons are actually archangels led by Satan.
	Who the Bible says is the God of this world, and I wonder if you could comment on the original Syrian text of the Book of Numbers, in which it says that Mastema is the Lord of the spirits of all flesh, and that Allah... Alright, that's a lot on a plate here, so slow up, hold up.
	Right.
	That Jesus is the Creator, John.
	The caller seems to be identifying a Gnostic text that says that Jesus is the Creator.
	I don't find that.
	You know, the word Jesus, the name Jesus does appear in these Nag Hammadi Gospels.
	But I would advise you to look very, very carefully at how it's used.
	And it's not used in the sense that we're used to associating with in the context of the Bible, the New Testament, and Christianity.
	So, that's one of the trickiest areas of interpreting And then Archons virtually equal the Satan's minions.
	They don't say that.
	You know, one of the things that... I think that's a detour that would lead nowhere in terms of the actual meaning of Gnostic studies.
	As far as I can tell, the Gnostics do not say that the Archons are evil.
	They associate them with error and mental deviance, but not with evil.
	And they do not ever, in any instance that I know, Call them satanic or equate them with satanic beings.
	You can understand how people might get that impression, though.
	Well, of course, but this material is very deep, you know, and in order to really extract the message, what's left of the message, because as I said, it would be helpful if we had a lot more texts that were destroyed.
	Collar, you had a third question.
	According to Lewis Ginsberg in Legends of the Jews, Satan had sex with Eve in the garden and they had an offspring named Cain, who of course murdered Abel.
	Are you familiar with Zoroastrianism and their view of the Triune God?
	Indeed I am.
	Zoroastrianism plays in the background of biblical mythology.
	What we have to be aware of, I think, and very cautious about when we hear these stories is because just because something is said in a certain ancient text or written on clay tablets doesn't necessarily mean that it's true.
	Well, why does what you have read necessarily make it so?
	That's a very good question.
	Yes.
	I would not pretend to I can't say in any absolute sense that I know what the final truth is.
	I know to the best of my ability.
	What I find to be reliable and credible in the Gnostic material is that it can be verified by experience, and it correlates so closely to science, parapsychology, noetics, and other indigenous wisdom.
	It would seem to.
	And so that is where I Place the credibility in what the Gnostics were trying to tell us.
	All right.
	It's a message worth hearing.
	You're on the air with John Lash in Belgium.
	Hello?
	Hello?
	Let's try again.
	There's a button.
	Hello there.
	Hello?
	Hello?
	Yes.
	Oh, okay.
	You got me?
	That would be you.
	Where are you?
	All right.
	Terrific.
	From Vermont.
	Okay.
	And I'm a Christian.
	And I think you guys are right on.
	And I appreciate that.
	I was wondering if there was anything said about a lifespan, or are these just eternal beings?
	Good question.
	The nature of the archons, as far as I can tell, I can't give you a specific textual reference here, but what I would infer from the specifics I find is that they are cone-like beings, And because they are inorganic, they would have a much longer lifespan than we have.
	Potentially forever?
	No, not potentially forever, because they arose with the solar system, and they are.
	And even machines wear out, you know, even the best-made machines.
	But they would have a different kind of lifespan and a far more extensive lifespan than humans have.
	Okay, caller?
	Okay, yeah.
	Well, I guess that's it, because everyone else covered the thing about, you know, I was thinking about Lucifer and all of that stuff, and as Christians, how can we buy any of this if God didn't make the archons in one way or another, whether they, you know, fell away or did anything?
	They had to come from God in order for us to buy into this at all.
	Well, I understand that people who People who believe the Bible and who accept the Christian explanation of things would need to know if God made the Archons.
	According to the Gnostics, God did not make the Archons.
	Alright, hold it right there, and we'll come back and find out who did make the Archons.
	You know, it seems like he almost had to have, unless they were simply a by-product.
	Creation.
	If we buy into that creative instant.
	That tiny little thing smaller than a cork that became all that now is.
	All that we know of.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Some of them want to abuse you.
	Some of them want to be abused Some of them want to be abused
	It is the night, my body's weak I want to run, no time to sleep
	I've got to run, run like the wind To be free again
	And I've got such a long way to go To make it to the border of Mexico
	Till my riding, like the wind, right back again I will...
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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	Ramona, my wife, just observed that all of this seems to have a connection to the HBO hit Carnival.
	I wonder if you've seen that. It's pretty deep stuff.
	And who knows, maybe, yes, maybe it does in a way.
	And as for me, I remember an old Commodore 64 game called Archon, which was my favorite.
	I'm looking for it on a modern platform, you know, like Windows or something fairly modern.
	I wonder if anybody's ever brought Archon forward.
	in a moment we'll get back to belgium and john lash once again from belgium here is dot uh... john lash
	uh... who has been studying uh... of these documents very hard and
	And, you know, a lot of people, John, are going to ask about the why, and they did earlier, and they're kind of asking again, why these should be believed above and beyond any other ancient document that's described the way it is or was.
	Well, I want to make it clear that I'm really not asking anyone to believe these documents.
	It's not a question of belief, but rather a question of determining the validity of the knowledge.
	I am convinced that there is genuine and reliable knowledge in here about our cosmology, our connection to the Earth and these aliens that can be applied and can help us to understand them.
	But that is not something that needs to be taken on belief at all.
	It needs to be examined and tested in each person's personal reality.
	That's why we have this program.
	You're on the air with John Lash.
	Good morning.
	Oh, I didn't push the button again.
	Now you're on the air.
	Hello.
	You there?
	Yes.
	Okay, great.
	Yeah, this is Wes in Dallas, Texas.
	Yes, sir.
	570?
	Yes.
	All righty.
	My question is about the Archon.
	If you say they are jealous of us and envious of us because of our emotional capacity, aren't jealousy and envy in themselves emotions?
	That's a great observation.
	Envy is the word that's used more than jealousy.
	Envy is certainly an emotion.
	And apparently what I would conclude from that is that the Gnostics were saying that these cyborg entities, inorganic beings, as Carlos Castaneda would say, are not entirely devoid of emotion.
	They don't have the range of emotions that we have, and they may just be fixated on one emotion.
	So I think, again, there's a lot of finesse.
	I think you've been able to pick up on this.
	A lot of finesse in these Gnostic interpretations.
	So we could say, yes, the Archons are capable of, one, mastering emotion, unfortunately, which is envy.
	But what they envy us for is not so much our emotional capacity as our intentional capacity.
	Our ability to imagine and intend things and then to bring about what we intend.
	They don't operate that way.
	They're clone-like beings who only operate by imitation and through taking orders, as it were.
	But in order to envy something, to some degree, you must understand it.
	Right?
	Well, there must be something in it that you recognize.
	Yeah.
	That could be yours.
	That's right.
	And the reason why there is something in us, in humanity, that the Gnostics recognize is because, in fact, when you go back far enough into the Gnostic creation story, which is called the Sophia myth, named after this goddess Sophia, you find that the origin of the Archons is due to Sophia, and the origin of the Earth is also due to Sophia.
	So that answers the question that was raised by one of your early callers.
	It does, yes.
	God did not create the Archons.
	Who did?
	It was according to the Gnostic story, and believe me, this is some story.
	It's an entirely different story than we're familiar with through the Bible and through the Christian idea of creation.
	Yes.
	Well, when I said the devil's in the details, early on in this, I would think a lot of Christians would be going, yes, yes, yes, yes!
	But when you get down to the details, they're going to be going, huh?
	Well, no, wait a minute.
	Hold on.
	Well, no!
	They're going to be going, no, very, very strongly.
	Yes.
	And that's not due to my interpretation of Gnosticism.
	It's a fact that Gnosticism contains a great many points which are frontal challenges to Christian beliefs.
	This is a fact.
	Clearly, yes.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with John Lash in Belgium.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi, how are you?
	Okay.
	My question basically, all life as we know it, basically everything above hydrogen was created in a star.
	And so I really agree with this notion that these archons are born of the creation process of our solar system.
	And I guess I just want to get his comment on that.
	I think that's what he's been saying.
	That's exactly what I've been saying, and if you read certain passages in Metahistory.org, where I make exact parallels, and I think these parallels will stand up to criticism, between the birth of a star in the arms of the galactic disk, the formation of atomic matter, the formation of Inorganic life forms previous to the formation of the Earth.
	It's a very, very reasonable cosmology that the Gnostics presented to us, but it's strange in many ways because we're not conditioned to think along those lines.
	Is there Gnostic talk of the creation of the instant of creation?
	Do they deal with that?
	Yes, they do, but here I'm going to have to throw you a really strange one.
	When we Westerners use the word creation, we tend to rely on a paradigm, which is something deeply buried in our minds.
	You know what a paradigm is, Art?
	It's something that allows us to think in a certain way.
	Absolutely.
	And in the Gnostic teachings, which are similar to Asian teachings, there's a totally different paradigm of creation.
	And according to the Asian paradigm, there was no beginning.
	Nothing ever really began.
	It's always been here.
	There was no beginning.
	It's a process of eternal becoming.
	And this paradigm of eternal becoming is also what you find in the wisdom of indigenous people, like the Australian Aborigines and the American Indians.
	And it's called the Dream Time.
	It means that we are living in a cosmic process which never had a beginning and will never have an end.
	Now that's very disturbing to us in the West, because our paradigm that's installed in our brains and our language demands that we say, it began here and it will end there.
	Well, yes, and really though, it's as difficult a concept to grasp As the creation process as we know it.
	I mean, both are just impossible to deal with.
	Well, these are the two, these two paradigms, and they're both valuable and we can learn from both of them, are the two highest forms of metaphysical thought that our species has produced.
	Well, it's worthy of consideration.
	It indeed is.
	It certainly is.
	Alright, short on time.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with John Lash, hi.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Go ahead, caller.
	Hello?
	Yes, hello has been established.
	Now go ahead.
	I have a question.
	Could religion be a part of the Archon alien agenda to control humanity?
	And my other question is, could Jesus be the result of, who by the way, Eileen Pagan says that he, and another Harvard scholar, that he worshipped Christophia, but could Jesus himself be
	a result of interbreeding, like Noah was supposed to have been?
	So there's like two questions, really.
	Religion being used by the Ark.
	Okay, I got the...
	All right, I think we've got them both, actually.
	Yes.
	I'll answer both of them specifically and as concisely as I can.
	The first question raises an aspect of the Gnostic message that we could easily spend another three hours discussing,
	So I'm just going to give it to you hard and fast.
	Yes, indeed, the Gnostics did say, specifically, that certain religious beliefs, especially the belief in the Divine Redeemer, was an implant in the human mind by the archontic forces.
	So, Gnosticism contains, and this is not, again, my interpretation, scholars all agree on this point, Gnosticism contains a critique of the belief systems inherent to Judaism and Christianity, and especially a critique of the Messiah or Redeemer complex, which Gnostics rejected as a delusional belief, and they connected it with the Archons.
	So, that's the answer to the first part of your question.
	I hope that's clear.
	Secondly, no, there is no indication that I know of, again, Jesus, the word Jesus, and even the word Christ, are used in a particular way in Gnosticism that must not be confused with the way they're used in Christianity.
	This is one of the biggest problems in sorting out the Gnostic materials.
	But as far as I know, no, there's no indication that Jesus would have been Any kind of a hybrid.
	You know what the Gnostics mean when they use the word Jesus?
	They mean not a person.
	Not a historical person.
	They call Jesus the Majotis.
	Which is a strange made-up word you find only in Gnosticism.
	And the Majotis really means the inner guide or inner pilot.
	So when Gnostics referred to Jesus, they were not referring to any historical person.
	They were referring to something that they believe exists in each human being.
	As an inner guiding force, a pilot.
	And this is not your interpretation, but... Not at all, no.
	The Majotes is an actual term from Gnostic texts, which means something like auto-pilot, self-guiding function.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	No, I think that's clear.
	East of the Rockies.
	Is that clear?
	Yes, I think so.
	East of the Rockies.
	I'm not sure I agree with it.
	It's clear.
	You're on the air with John Lask, Lask's brother.
	Hello.
	Have you got me?
	I have got you.
	how are you doing tonight we are fine
	now uh...
	uh... i have a few topics that i'd like to cover i'd like to start with uh...
	you seem to lind a great weight to the uh... sources that you're studying and i'm wondering what
	what other historical references you've made in order to uh...
	validate or cross out some of the uh...
	findings that you've uh... come across Can I answer that question now before we go on to any others?
	Yes, please do.
	The Gnostic materials that you will find in this Nag Hammadi library that were discovered in Egypt are extremely difficult.
	I mean, I have to tell you, there are 50 documents in there.
	I've probably read each one of them at least 50 times.
	Over the last twenty years, if not a hundred, I have crawled meticulously through the Coptic texts, the Coptic and Greek translations, and in order to make, in order to frame that material for myself in such a way that it became reliable and valid, I had to background it with a lot of other studies.
	You know, studies in the religion, in what we know about pagan religion, in many other There are very few original documents from the Gnostics, but there's a great deal written about paganism and pagan religions and ancient beliefs and mythology and biblical mythology.
	So you had a lot of cross-reference.
	I had to do that.
	There's an enormous amount of cross-referencing that puts together the picture that I'm presenting here.
	So I'm going to guess that you came across a great many consistencies which led you to some of your final conclusions.
	I did.
	I came across, and what's really stunning about the Gnostic material is that it's not only consistent with other ancient information, but it's consistent in the second place with the knowledge and the wisdom of indigenous peoples.
	And thirdly, it has very, very close parallels to the latest findings in science and psychology.
	And that, to me, is a pretty powerful formula.
	I'm a Christian man, and, you know, I read my Bible.
	I believe that the Word of God is the Word of God, but I do not believe that it's the only source of information.
	I don't think it's right to be closed-minded and say, well, this is what the Bible says, therefore anything from any other source is invalid.
	Right, right.
	You keep an open mind.
	I've heard you talk about interbreeding, and it brought something to mind, David and Goliath.
	And also, some of the things you were talking about, these entities having mental powers, such as maybe possibly telekinetic powers, or telepathic, or things of that sort.
	Right.
	The texts are very specific, that they do have mental powers, and that they can sort of insinuate their thoughts into our minds.
	Now, when the Bible said that David had slain Goliath and came on to be king, that there were giants in the earth in those days, and that he made sort of a crusade out of trying to hunt them down, And I was wondering if you'd consider the fact that some of
	these abilities that pop up in humanity here and there may not be a lingering effect of interbreeding with humans and
	alien forces, because it seems to me that if it were just a human trait,
	it would come along more frequently, such as people with good reflexes or a knack for math or some such thing.
	I would respond to that, first of all, by saying that we don't even know what our human potential is, and it may be
	far greater than we imagine and that we haven't yet realized.
	Secondly, I would say that I am certain that Gnostic seers and shamans and masters in the mystery schools, which were
	pre-Christian spiritual centers, had these kinds of powers.
	They developed them as yogis in the Orient did, and that there is no need to go to an interbreeding theory in order to explain the great powers that are present in the human species.
	Gnostics certainly, as I quoted earlier, They describe how the Archons attempt to interbreed with our species, but they actually aren't able to do so.
	So they really ruled that out, and that's a very important point.
	Well, John, do they ever come to the conclusion, then, that they cannot do it, or are they eternally stuck in the same place of trying to achieve that which they cannot?
	Well, unfortunately, Art, that's one of the parts of the Gnostic puzzle that we don't have.
	You know, we only have these very fragmentary manuscripts.
	There are certainly hundreds and hundreds of scrolls and writings that were destroyed that could have elucidated that question.
	So, I think that the fascinating thing about the agnostic message is that it puts us in a big picture with these entities, these aliens.
	It gives us the big picture.
	It connects them to the Earth and our connection to the Earth.
	But it remains for us now to write the last chapter, as it were, of Gnostic knowledge.
	Is all of this in much greater acceptance in Europe now than in the United States, for example?
	Oh, no, not at all.
	It's in much greater acceptance in the United States.
	You better believe it.
	Oh, really?
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, in certain ways over here, Europeans are very mired in In their history and in very outdated paradigms and ways of viewing things.
	And although there is a fair amount of ET and alien speculation over here, and there are sightings and so forth, they're not anywhere near into the subject and to the depth that we are in the United States.
	Well, that makes me proud.
	You should well be proud.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Lash, hello.
	Good evening, Art.
	Hi.
	Carol, KVI, Seattle.
	I'd like to challenge Mr. Lash about a historical fact.
	For example, when St.
	Patrick was challenging the Druids, he had a contest, a couple of contests with them, and he overcame them, and that's what convinced the Irish that they should become Christian rather than remain in the paganism of Gnosticism.
	All right, because of time, we'll have to hold it there.
	John?
	Yes?
	Any response?
	Yeah, I would say that that's an old, old story.
	You know, one of the strange contradictions, I won't use the word hypocrisy.
	about Christianity from the beginning is that there are stories about Christian saints overcoming Gnostics and Pagans with magic, but then of course the Christians ban magic, don't they?
	So it's a story, and there are many stories like that, but that story alone does not prove anything about the value of what Pagans knew and of the kind of powers that they had.
	Well, you have given us a very great deal to think about.
	I would like you to plug your book, which is The Seeker's Handbook, right?
	Well, The Seeker's Handbook is one of my books that came out 12 years ago.
	The book that I'd like to refer to now is The Gnostic Legacy, which will be coming out from Chelsea Green in October, a forthcoming book.
	And this book will really lay out in great detail and with clarity, I hope, A lot of the points that we've been discussing here tonight aren't.
	And I'm sorry, when again, please?
	It's coming out in the fall, in October.
	In the fall.
	So watch for it in all the usual places, right folks?
	That's right.
	All right.
	John, it has been my pleasure to have you here.
	You've given us a ton to think about, and your presentation is excellent.
	So we will have you back sometime.
	Well, thank you very much.
	It's been a great opportunity, Art.
	It's been a lot of fun.
	Good night.
	Good night.
	All right.
	Well, actually, good morning.
	It's probably middle morning there or something.
	From the high desert, I am Art Bell.
	See you tomorrow night.
	Good night.
	Midnight in the desert Shooting stars across the sky This magical journey

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